January 27, 2025 • 59 mins
The Question: Is christian nationalism good for society?
My guest Sarah and I attempt to tackle this question as we look at what history shows, what the Bible says, and the morality that guides our decisions.
All ideas and viewpoints presented should be taken as opinion.
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Matthew 7, 7-11
(00:03):
Ask, and it will be given to you.
Search, and you will find.
Knock, and the door will be opened for you.
For everyone who asks, receives.
For everyone who searches, finds.
And for everyone who knocks, the door will be opened.
Is there anyone among you who, if your child asked for bread, would give a stone?
(00:25):
Or if the child asked for fish, would give a snake?
If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children,
how much more will your Father in Heaven give good gifts to those who ask him?
Dietrich Bonhoeffer was a man of deep theological conviction,
in a time and place where speaking out from his moral quandaries became a criminal offense.
(00:49):
Bonhoeffer became a pastor at the time that Hitler was taking power.
Churches were slowly being co-opted by the Nazis.
Christianity was rapidly succumbing to secularism.
The Holocaust had already begun construction at the first concentration camp at Dachau.
And through all this, German Christians were astonishingly silent.
(01:10):
Bonhoeffer came to a central belief that following Christ in a secular world required the whole self.
He was a pacifist, conflicted in the face of a Nazi regime.
So when he joined a plot to assassinate Hitler, he considered it a grave moral wrong
for which he would have to repent and ask for forgiveness.
He understood that what seemingly was a clear-cut defeat of evil, wasn't devoid of moral bankruptcy.
(01:37):
We all would like to think that there is a clear moral path,
and that we need to accomplish certain things in order to achieve that goal.
When in reality, it's not as black and white and binary as we would like to believe.
When we start to believe that the end justifies the means, or however that phrase manifests itself,
(01:58):
we can very easily step over and even justify harming our friends, our neighbors, and even our family
in order to achieve the outcome that we desire.
Bonhoeffer, in his book The Cost of Discipleship, talks about a concept called cheap grace.
Cheap grace, which is the grace which amounts to the justification of the sin
(02:20):
without the justification of the repentant sinner, who departs from sin and from whom sin departs.
Cheap grace is preaching forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline,
communion without confession, and absolution without personal confession.
Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, and grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate.
(02:49):
It can be easier to ask for forgiveness than to actually change.
The state's church was offering grace without absolution,
given without taking account for the wrongs and then sweeping them under the rug.
There was no humility, no accountability, no acknowledgement, and no honesty.
(03:10):
Eric Metaxas' book turned Bonhoeffer into a prophet for Christian nationalism,
when in reality Bonhoeffer abhorred the marriage of church and state.
The foreword of Metaxas' book was written by Kevin Roberts, and it states,
Open borders activism is a classic example of what the German theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer called cheap grace.
(03:32):
Publicly promoting one's own virtue without risking any personal inconvenience.
This right here is a classic dog whistle of anti-immigrant sentiment.
When it comes to Christian nationalism of Trump and his cabinet,
Forgive them, say the ministers who have embraced them, but they haven't repented.
Accept them as Christians, they say, but they have shown no signs of confession or discipleship.
(03:58):
Trust them, they say, but they lie.
This isn't about religion. It's about power, control, and using faith as a means to justify oppression.
Theirs is a grace that thinks that representations of the cross and the American flag are substance of Christian faith.
This is a movement that uses Bonhoeffer as a political mascot, and has idolized Jesus and the Bible.
(04:26):
In Luke 4, Jesus rejected Satan's temptation to have power and dominance over all the nations.
So why do we now give it so freely?
Paul Tillich sums it up very nicely by saying,
The cross is opposed to holiness of nation, race, blood, and power.
The answer to cheap grace can be found in Matthew 7, 7-11.
(04:50):
Knock, and you shall receive.
The answer is the act of pursuing God.
Bonhoeffer urges us to live in a concept he calls costly grace.
Such grace is costly because it asks us to follow, and it is grace because it calls us to follow Jesus Christ.
(05:11):
True Christian faith knows nothing of power, or violence, or riches, or pride.
It is the antithesis of Christian nationalism.
Or, in other terms, Christian nationalism is anti-Christ in nature.
The episode you're about to listen to was recorded a little over a month ago, and since then quite a bit has happened.
(05:38):
So here's a couple things that have happened.
The murder of Brian Thompson became a bipartisan issue,
where the working class realized that it's not a left versus right, but rather an up versus down.
Israel and Hamas sign a ceasefire deal, but they continue to indiscriminately bomb Palestinians and annex the West Bank.
(06:00):
Musk seemingly gave two Nazi-esque salutes, which the media continues to gaslight people into believing that it's not that.
Trump issues ICE deportation raids in Chicago only a day after the inauguration.
Bishop Marion Edgar Buddy was condemned for giving a sermon asking for mercy and compassion on the marginalized and the foreigner,
(06:25):
even having her message labeled as satanic.
Framing someone as demonic is dehumanizing, and it's a thought-stopping cliché.
It reduces everything to a zero-sum binary game, where everything is black and white.
There are good guys, there are bad guys, and there is nothing in between.
This is simply a corrosive and destructive way to look at the world.
(06:50):
I do wholeheartedly pray for this nation, and that people's hearts will be moved and impacted,
heeding the call to reject cheap grace and pursue costly grace.
The following conversation is somewhat of a response to a debate between Tim Whitaker and Kenton Little
regarding the topic, is Christian nationalism good for society?
(07:13):
My guest Sarah and I attempt to engage this topic with humility and good faith dialogue without dehumanization.
We may not be the most well-versed in this topic, so I ask for grace as we navigate this question.
Speaking for myself, I wish I spoke a little bit more eloquently.
I used a lot of ums and I paused a lot.
(07:36):
But if you are listening to the audio-only version of this, I was able to finesse the audio and clean it up a little bit.
So, without further ado, I truly hope you enjoy this conversation.
Welcome to Grub & Grace. I am Mark Flower.
(07:58):
I am here with my guest Sarah and we will be talking on Christian nationalism and having a response video
based on a debate that Tim Whitaker and Kenton Little had on the Dead Men Walking podcast.
Sarah, thank you for coming on here.
Yeah, no problem.
Sarah, why don't you tell me a little bit about yourself?
Yeah, I went to Christian school all growing up.
(08:21):
I went to the same church that I've been going to since I was probably, let's say, nine years old. I don't know if that's right.
But around that age, I did like a two-year college program through my church that did like college credits for certificate in theology.
And then, yeah, I'm in a band.
(08:42):
I just have been really passionate about this topic since the election pretty much.
I'm a very progressive voter.
So I voted for Kamala Harris and Tim Walz.
And I didn't really expect them to lose.
So I was a little bit stunned by that.
But anyway, not to bring it all about politics, but this topic, it seems like a pretty important conversation to have.
(09:09):
So happy to be here and to bring any insight I have on all those things.
Yeah, I'm happy you're here.
And this conversation, I mean, you don't have to apologize. It is a very political topic.
Christian nationalism wasn't about it this year.
And whether people know about it, admit it or not, it was.
You got Project 2025, which was designed by people within that sphere, in that realm.
(09:34):
And it was designed in a way to encapsulate a lot of these Christian fundamentalist values.
So in a way, it is very much a very political conversation we're having.
Yeah, absolutely.
So like I said, we are going to be having this conversation about a response to a video that was posted on the Dead Men Walking podcast with Tim Whitaker and Kenton Little.
(09:58):
Tim Whitaker is the host of the New Evangelical podcast.
And Kenton Little, I think he said he has a platform, but he hasn't really been very active.
So I forget what that was exactly.
But they go on talking about the topic of is Christian nationalism good for society?
And Tim is on the side of saying, no, it's not. He tries to break it down.
(10:22):
Kenton Little shares his views on why it is good for society.
I thought it kind of got off topic a little bit here and there where it kind of reverted into is Christian nationalism good in general as opposed to good for society?
I think they brought it back here and there.
The host of Dead Men Walking did bring it back.
I was glad for that made it for a very enjoyable listen.
So I don't know, Sarah, what are your what are your thoughts on the whole debate that they had?
(10:46):
Yeah. So I think we have a clip of the opening statement from Kenton that kind of spurred me to make some notes here.
I've just been just really mulling over this topic the last three or four months and just thinking this is, in my opinion, not a Christ like movement.
It's not an American movement.
It's a belief that, you know, a nation should make laws to enforce only Christian beliefs onto their citizens.
(11:11):
I think we've seen this in history enough times to know that it's not positive for society.
I'm starting with like the first Christian emperor, Constantine, requiring people to go to church, even if they didn't speak Latin.
That obviously doesn't seem like it would create real, genuine Christ followers.
And then just focusing in general, I talked to a good friend who's in my band and she was saying like,
(11:38):
we talk all our lives about how like Jesus is supposed to change your heart and like the inside and not the outside doesn't matter as much.
I mean, it does matter. But like if you don't change the inside, the outside doesn't do it.
And so like that's kind of what Christian nationalism seems to me is it's all about the outside and forcing people to look and act like you do.
So, yeah, my premise or like idea that I've been thinking since Bible college is just I would rather live in a society where Christianity is banned.
(12:11):
I'd rather live there than in a society where Christians are the oppressors,
because I think real Christians would come out of society where it's harder to be a Christian versus in a society where everyone is forced to believe what I believe.
Because I want people to actually know Jesus, not just pretend they know Jesus.
And I think more people will be pretending to know Jesus in a Christian nationalist.
(12:33):
So kind of like the idea of how a diamond is formed, you know, it's formed by the gravity of the earth pushing the rocks together
and really just kind of molding this precious rock into this beautiful thing that becomes the diamond.
That's kind of like the idea that I'm hearing from you is that where Christianity isn't the norm,
if somebody were to believe in that, it would be a more genuine thing than if they're around, you know, a whole plethora of people around them that where it's become commonplace to become a Christian.
(13:03):
To at least say that you're Christian, whether you believe or not.
And yeah, I think I definitely agree with you on that.
Yeah, thanks. And the other thing that I think is strange about it is I hear in church all the time,
my church even says this and I don't like it when they do, that like it's unpopular to be Christian.
And I'm like, I think a lot of our society is Christian.
(13:24):
I've witnessed to people and they've been like, I live in America.
I know about Jesus. And I'm like, oh, right. My bad. You know, and like, I don't think to say we're being oppressed or that we're being like,
persecuted is insane because most of us are Christians or we're raised Christians.
And I think it's kind of making a self-fulfilling prophecy where like if you push your religion on other people, they're not going to like it.
(13:50):
And then people think that that's oppression. And that's just being like not popular, which is not the same thing.
They're just giving you an honest opinion as opposed to like lashing out and creating laws.
Basically saying that you can't live in this country. So the thing and yeah, they're not doing that.
If you look at the statistics of the PRRI Institute or PRRI, which the I stands for Institute.
(14:16):
But they came out with a study. It was it was like a decade long study from twenty four twenty thirteen to twenty twenty three.
And what they found was that I think they found that 41 percent of Americans classify themselves as Christian,
whatever that that degree looks like. But they consider themselves Christian. Yeah.
(14:38):
If you look at that further, they they found that I think it was twenty twenty one percent in twenty twenty three
say that they attend at least one service of church a week, which is like half of the people that claim themselves Christian.
Yeah. Forty one percent. That's I mean, that's a little less than half of all Americans that claim themselves Christian.
(14:59):
But still, as far as religions go in America, that is clearly the majority.
If you look at any other statistics, that is by far larger than any other religion represented in America.
So to say that they're persecuted, I mean, I think it's laughable.
But I agree. That's I think what people I think are using to justify this pushing of our beliefs into laws.
(15:23):
Like, I think that's what's like their justification is, oh, this is like we're being persecuted.
So we need to like put we need to be more aggressive or something.
And that's not what Jesus would do. And that doesn't match what I feel like Jesus is wanting us to do.
A little it's just a little weird, really aggressive thing.
(15:44):
I feel like a lot of it, it could be tied down to privilege.
I know that term is thrown around quite a bit.
But if you don't see something as a problem, that might be your own privilege that it doesn't impact you personally.
And just just thinking that people having their own beliefs is persecution.
(16:05):
That seems like exactly what you're saying. A privilege.
Actually being persecuted in like another country where it's illegal is way.
That's the real definition of persecution, not just a guy at work doesn't like me or I often hear like the anecdote.
Like you don't you get passed on over a promotion for being Christian.
And I've never heard anybody actually say that's happened to them.
(16:26):
So when I hear that anecdotally during a sermon, I'm always like, who told me who?
And then maybe they can work next door at the same business, but on by a different person.
Who the guys are Christian. That's all he wants to hire.
Like, I feel like it's the most popular demographic in religion.
So that's just odd to me that that's.
Yeah. And another thing is, is when people say that they've been persecuted in America, I feel like it kind of waters it down.
(16:52):
The idea of being persecuted for being a Christian, because it does actually happen around the world.
And it's not something that we should take lightly because you see this happening in places like Nepal or like other places in the countries that have laws set up that they try to reduce and limit the amount of people that that are bringing outside religion into the country for various reasons.
(17:14):
They do that. But but I've known people personally that have had direct contact with people that have been found out through the government that they have been that they have taken Jesus in their hearts and they have been imprisoned because of it.
Where they've been excommunicated from the country or even heard cases of like being beaten and stuff like that.
(17:38):
So it should definitely not be taken lightly. And especially if it's being claimed here in America when people aren't being jailed because they're Christian, they're not being beaten because they're Christian.
They're not, you know, if someone says like, you can't buy food from my store because you're Christian, that's still persecution.
But we don't actually hear any stories about that.
(17:59):
We hear stories about them turning down people who are like gay or lesbian or LGBTQ trans, you know, from buying like a cake at their shop or they don't want to photograph their wedding.
Like, I don't know. There's mixed opinions on a lot of that.
But I definitely don't see any articles or any news reports about someone being Christian and having someone say, no, I'm not going to I'm not going to do this for you because you're Christian.
(18:26):
So I feel like it's a completely different story here in America.
Yeah, I think if anything, we are the people doing the persecuting in a way with different groups, whether we don't like them for any reason, because we're the majority.
And I've never had a friend who doesn't believe, tell me they're mad at me because of my beliefs.
I've always been like, oh, like, Sarah's Christian. That's cool.
(18:48):
You know, I don't, you know, I'm not I've never encountered as a Christian person, except for when I was a little girl and I asked my friend to like ask Jesus into her heart.
And she was like, no, I'm good. Have I ever felt like rejected because I was that was the last time.
And that lady today believes in Jesus. So like, that's very funny.
Circle, circle. I was like, do you remember when we were kids and like you just you just turned me down and she's like, I do remember that.
(19:14):
That's hilarious. But yeah, like, I don't think I've ever felt othered because being a Christian just besides people being like, oh, like, Sarah doesn't do these things because, you know, that's not persecution.
That's people being like, that's the good kid. Just, you know, yeah, you know, that's that's to be expected and not persecution.
I wanted to talk about Kenton, but I didn't know if we should play the clip before I.
(19:40):
Yeah, why don't we go and play the clip? Should we? So this clip, should we should we get a little bit of play it and then we'll talk about it after.
Let's let our viewers kind of watch it.
So we're talking about Christian nationalism today and we're talking about the subject. Does it help society?
Does Christian nationalism help society? And we've already been given a definition of that.
(20:03):
What I want to frame is that Christian nationalism is the idea, a more simplified definition that Christian nationalism is the idea that the nations ought to base their laws and their customs on what God has revealed in his word.
And this comes from this. The foundation for this idea is based on what Jesus said before he ascended into heaven.
(20:24):
His final words, the Great Commission, the words of our Lord. Right.
If all of us are professing Christians, we should all affirm what Jesus has commanded us. His final commandment before he ascends into heaven.
Matthew chapter twenty eight. All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I've commanded you.
(20:49):
And behold, I am with you always to the end of the age.
So the Great Commission provides us the foundation for Christian nationalism.
What it is, is that Jesus is making the claim that all authority on earth has been given to him.
And because of his authority, because the earth belongs to him, his disciples should go.
And the language that he uses is make disciples of the nations, baptize the nations and teach the nations to observe all that God has commanded, all that Christ commanded.
(21:19):
So if Christ's commandment is that we should make disciples of the nations, then the question is, is what Christ is commanding good for the people he's commanding it for?
Well, well, who is Christ? Again, we are all Christians in this in this conversation here.
We all claim to be Christians in this conversation here.
And so we all believe that Christ is the second person of the Trinity, that he is indeed God and therefore that he is the creator of all things that he created heaven and earth.
(21:46):
Right, Tim, would you would you agree with that? What that Jesus created the heaven and earth? Yes. Yeah. OK, good.
I affirm the Trinity. I affirm the virgin birth, resurrection from all that. Awesome. Fantastic.
And so what we understand, all three of us, is that God created all things and then he called all things very good.
And so if he created all things and created all things very good, then we can infer from that that all things that he commands are for the good of the people he created it for.
(22:15):
So if God's commandments are fundamentally good and Jesus commanded that the nations should bow down and obey him, that we should go and disciple the nations, that the nation should be baptized in the Trinitarian name,
then what we say when we say that Christian nationalism is fundamentally not biblical or fundamentally not good for society, what we're saying is that that thing that God has commanded,
(22:39):
what Christ has commanded that we obey is not good for society. What we're doing is we're taking our own wisdom and we are putting our own wisdom above what God has commanded
and putting ourselves in his place to say, no, I have more knowledge about how the world works. I know what's better for society than what Jesus does.
So if Christ has claimed that all authority belongs to him and based on that authority that we should go and make disciples of all nations, that the nation should obey him,
(23:07):
he's doing that for our good and for his glory. Everything that God commands, he commands for our good and for his glory.
He says all things work together for good to them that love God and to those who are called according to his purpose.
So what we're talking about is, is it good for society? And what we're going to get into when we're talking about that is what constitutes good for society, right?
(23:29):
Is being a part of another religion that is opposed to the religion of scripture, is that good for society? Is being homosexual good for society?
Is abortion good for society? Are these things, these cultural issues that Christian nationalists like myself would oppose, are they good for society?
Or should we affirm all these things in opposition to what Christ has commanded in his word?
(23:54):
And so Christian nationalism is good for society because Christ does not command things that are not good for the people he created.
All right. There's a whole lot in that.
There's a whole lot of those ponzu there.
Do you want to jump off or would you rather I jump off now?
Oh, I will just start with, definitely hold your thoughts.
Okay, yes, I will.
(24:15):
I would just say like, it's a weak argument in my opinion because are there more authentic Christians when you've in Constantine's Christian Empire or are there more authentic real Christians where Christianity is banned?
I would argue I don't need our society to ban our religion.
I obviously don't want that.
(24:36):
But I definitely think there is a higher chance that people will actually know Jesus and be changed on the inside when we don't force it on other people.
People should come to Jesus on their own, not because I tell them to.
Like my friend when I was a little kid said she's not interested.
I didn't need to. I did ask her again. Of course I did.
I was a little kid. But like you can't make somebody believe on anything.
(25:01):
You shouldn't try.
I don't think that's what free will is for, to force others to force your will on them.
So yeah, I don't think society benefits most and Christianity benefits most when Christians are pushing it on other people through laws in general.
So yeah, that's my thoughts on that. But I do have more.
(25:22):
But I would love to hear your thoughts now.
I feel like Kenton has a lot of assumptions that he brings to his interpretation of scripture.
He even talks about all things that help.
All things were created for good.
Yeah, so all things were created for good through God.
Does that only apply to people that are within the Christian nationalist sphere that adhere to this one translation?
(25:45):
I think it's the ESV, King James.
I think the ESV is the updated version of the King James.
But I think it's that if you only adhere to the ESV and you see that as the only translation, we haven't talked about how many different denominations are in the world.
There's 45,000 different denominations in the world.
(26:06):
How can there be one way that is the correct way when there for decades, for millennia, even there has been all this debate on how to interpret scripture,
how to interpret these scripts that people have written throughout the years that they have been written.
And so how can you say that there's only one?
I think it is funny that even in verse 20, it says, and teach them to obey everything I commanded you.
(26:32):
In Christian nationalistic rhetoric, where are the teachings of feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, welcoming and caring for the poor, visiting the sick and in prison, valuing and listening to women, showing love and compassion and empathy to the marginalized people?
I think the core rhetoric and the actions that I've seen in Christian nationalism that I've heard from other people are around the seven mountain mandates.
(26:54):
I'm sure you've heard it as maybe the seven spheres of influence, which I think is based in Isaiah 2,2, when it talks about in the basically end of days, God will make his kingdom on the mountaintops.
And they've basically taken that and translated it as these seven areas of influence in society that they can pretty much take over and instill God's word through these seven spheres of influence.
(27:20):
Is that from that new apostolic reformation group?
Yes.
So it's all very, very new.
They're like a full right wing, but they're growing, it seems to be, within our political.
I think it's in the past, was it 30 or 50 years?
It's pretty recent that all this new ideology and new verbiage has been used.
(27:42):
If you want more information of connecting the dots, I would highly suggest reading the book by Christian Dumais or Christian Cobes Dumais.
It's Jesus and John Wayne.
I have been recommended that several times. I do need to read it.
Here's another recommendation. It is fantastic.
It talks about these kind of the beginning of this movement and the connecting of dots between the religious leaders, or not even leaders, I guess, leaders within the religious area of Christianity and the and they're kind of marrying a connection to politics and the government and working these ideas into policies.
(28:19):
And so it's kind of built up over time from then up until now. And obviously we see it with Project 2025 and a lot of these ideas and policies are being pushed within this new project, as you say.
Who have been streamed by the Republican Party in the last, since 2016, maybe? I don't know if those were as popular.
(28:40):
What was this popular?
Just how connected the Republican Party has gotten with these extremist religious leader people.
I wonder how long that's just been the whole time. Did the book cover that?
I mean, I've heard a lot of it's been over time. It's been growing over time.
And I wouldn't say it was I was married to it. Like I said, it's like the last 50 years that this has been a growing thing. And with each year, they gain more connection, more power within the Republican Party.
(29:13):
When you look at the Christians, specifically Christian voters, PRI has a lot of statistics on this of the percentage of population.
I forget the actual numbers, but it's the vast majority of Christians, people that claim they're Christians that vote Republican. It's a very small minority group within the entirety of the Christian network that is more of a progressive Christian.
(29:34):
And I feel like nowadays there's a lot more jumping off that boat into the more progressive side. I've definitely seen a lot more of that happening.
I might just have to say, yeah, it's been a growing thing within the Republican Party and people that weren't really focused on politics. That was a thing within Christianity where politics weren't as big.
It wasn't until churches started including subtleties in their messages where they're not flat out saying who to focus on. They're not saying we believe in this or whatnot.
(30:03):
We're seeing a lot more of that now where they're getting a lot more bold with their statements. But it wasn't always like that. It was kind of one of those slow burn things where they bring in just a little bit here and there, whereas there's dog whistles.
The dog whistles are basically, here's how we need to think about LGBTQ people. Here's how we need to think about what's going on with AIDS and everything back in the 80s. Here's when we need to think about the Black Lives Matter movements.
(30:33):
Even before then, the Black Panthers were making known the struggles that they were going through and they were demonized by the church because of that. It was one of those slow burn things. It was very, I want to say calculated in a way.
It was kind of like boiling the lobster. You start with a lower temperature and then you slowly crank it up a little bit. That's the way I've heard it being said that that's what I've seen in my own experience within the church and just within my friendships and community.
(31:05):
So interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Back to the denomination. I put my notes. I remembered reading the book about Bonhoeffer, which is totally written by a British nationalist. Don't buy his book.
Erickman Taxes sucks. But his book I liked. So you can buy it secondhand if you really want to read it or I'd lend it to anybody.
(31:27):
He talks about how Bonhoeffer reached out to the other denominations and built friendships and just encouraged unity between those groups in order to help him resist the Nazification of the Lutheran Church during the time of Hitler.
That seems like an antidote to this. Our way is the only right way. I mean, I guess there could be some evil uniting of all the people to hate people. But I just can't see that because we'd have to acknowledge, oh, you believe differently about like, I don't know, taking communion.
(32:02):
You know, you believe this about it. I believe it doesn't matter if you take it with bread or if you do with wine. You know, like just acknowledging that like there's not just one Christianity that is right and good and everybody follows mine and they would actually be following Jesus.
That's, I think, what leads to an extremism of my way is the only way that's right. And it's not healthy. So speaking of Bonhoeffer, especially Erickman Taxes, I haven't read his book, but I know from my, the retellings of Bonhoeffer and his contribution to, you know, theology and to processing the Bible is whenever it's taught.
(32:42):
Like my Christian university that I went to, they did a Bonhoeffer week every single week, and I am pretty sure they still do it.
Every year, sorry. Yeah.
A week every year. And one thing that I can't remember them ever actually calling out was the church, the general German church, the large capital C German church, basically sold themselves out to the government under Hitler.
(33:12):
They had to like sign pledges. They had to sign pledges. They had to, they basically said that they're working with the state. They're under the government and they're under the influence of the government. They're under the laws and whatnot.
And the separation of churches state became unified and one. And there was a lack of calling that out. There was, there was a heavy influence on Bonhoeffer calling out Nazis and that's the ideology and what they were doing.
(33:42):
They didn't really, they didn't really call out the church. There was only small, like small groups and communities which became the minority within the church, the German church that were actually standing out, calling them out.
They quickly became enemies of the state because they were standing against the state of Germany. And I just had to make a mention of that because especially, yeah, it's important. It's a very important part of it.
(34:08):
Another thing I see with the telling of Bonhoeffer in the church is that they talk about the very end days of Bonhoeffer where he plotted to kill Hitler. And they almost glorify this as this, this big grand finale moment of Bonhoeffer.
And when in reality Bonhoeffer did do that, Bonhoeffer did join a small rebellion and join this, make this plot to take out Hitler. But what they don't talk about is that Bonhoeffer never once attributed his violence as a God's will to do that.
(34:43):
He actually made a point to distance himself, distance those actions from God. And that is one thing that you almost never hear about in retellings of Bonhoeffer. One resource that I would actually like to point out, you mentioned the Metaxas book, which I think you'd agree don't read it.
I mean, if you want to read it, go ahead and read it. A cautionary tale. So Tripp Fuller's Homebrew Christianity came out with a mini series podcast about Bonhoeffer called The Rise of Bonhoeffer.
(35:20):
He goes very in detail. Each episode is like an hour long. It's like seven episodes, pretty much like a book, like an audio book. He brings in guests that have been studying Bonhoeffer for years and years and years. They know Bonhoeffer inside and out.
And he brings them on and they talk about Bonhoeffer and all this and they have like, you know, voice actors, voice acting, some of the quotes that Bonhoeffer has in the letters.
(35:43):
Yeah, so it's really well done, highly high production value. Very good and got great content. Talks about all the ins and outs, even the missed retellings of Bonhoeffer to the church.
So I would highly suggest you listen to that. What's so interesting is that I read the Metaxas version and I still came away with it being like, you're a Christian nationalist after all.
(36:06):
There's even a section in the book where he says there was a point where you are to be a German was to be a Christian and to be a Christian was to be a German and they were not separate.
And that led to the Nazis. He literally makes that clear. He's a total idiot for, in my opinion, just kind of harsh to say, but he's just, he's ridiculous for being so Christian nationalist now after writing about most anti-Christian nationalist person in modern times.
(36:35):
Like that's incredible hypocrisy. I think I think I would think some of that might be cognitive dissonance. Yeah, I see that a lot of that was my friends to where where there's a lot of basically you say one thing and you say another thing and they're very much in contradictory to each other.
Yet in their head, it's almost like they create a barrier between the two. They they disassociate both those ideas. So even though they're contradictory, they still verified in their head as both being true.
(37:05):
And I think, you know, to Eric Montax's defense to some degree is that you can't there's no direct correlation between Nazis and national Christian nationalism here in America in today's society, today's world.
There are similarities that you can say, hey, you know, these things that happen in Nazi Germany, there's similar things happening in America that are attributed to Christian nationalism. But there's no new Nazis to the whole.
(37:37):
Yeah.
Yeah, there's Nazi sympathizers here in America. I wouldn't necessarily say that that Christian nationalism is not. Not the exact same thing. No, but it seems to me that they're easily aligned in their ideas.
And, you know, it's one of those things that we're talking about Tim Whitaker to bring it all back. It's he's he makes it a point on his podcast and on his platforms to say that that we don't dehumanize. We don't we don't generalize.
(38:11):
We want to look at the facts, we want to look at the statistics and base our ideas off that and not, you know, demonize a whole group of people. So when we talk about Christian nationalism, it's a very broad topic. There are the thought leaders, there are the religious leaders, there are the political leaders within this world that are pushing things that are very, I would say, unhealthy and not good for society to say that all Christian nationalists are the same.
(38:37):
I think it's a big misunderstanding with the whole thing. So I think it's one of those things like we need to be reminded that we need to let each other know that, you know, we shouldn't be doing that because there's a lot more nuances within this.
But that's that's what we're doing here is we're picking out things and we need to talk about some of these these harmful rhetoric is harmful ideologies that are being brought forth and being trying to be put in policy, which, which I believe I think you do too, that will actually hurt people and have real life consequences.
(39:05):
Absolutely. And I think it's good what you said about not good to generalize, not good to say anybody who likes Eric Mitax is a terrible person. I don't think that I can tend to be hyperbolic in how I say things from time to time. All my friends know that about me.
Yeah. What you're saying about your school just like blocking out the part where the church was part of the part of what happened in Germany and how they were had to join forces basically with the Nazis. It's similar to me to I don't know if we're going off topic. So sorry, I am but I'm in Missouri and we've a lot of Bosnian refugees.
(39:39):
And a lot of people in Missouri who've been here a long time have complained about having Bosnian refugees. But what they don't understand a lot of times is that there was a genocide in Bosnia where Christians were killing Muslims.
And that's why they're people who had to flee their home where they lived to get away and to be safe. And then Christians here are complaining about immigrants.
(40:02):
And like that is because you're not getting the whole story like people who say they believe what we believe hurt these other people and we need to learn from that. So we don't repeat that. And I think that's important for us in Germany to know there are Christians that we're doing that stuff.
Mm hmm. Yeah, and then talk about genocide even get what's happening in Palestine and genocide of people. And there's a lot of people that are in denial that's even a genocide that it's got ordained or it's basically bringing upon the coming of the second coming of Jesus.
(40:36):
And it's incredibly harmful because people real people are getting, you know, unalived over there. And there are people that, like I said, are denying it. There are people that are choosing to stay in the dark about this, even though there's so many people that are talking out about
against it right now. And you look at the media and the media is basically blacking it out. They're only choosing to talk about one side of things. You almost have to go to social media to see actual videos that people are posting of the atrocities that are happening, as well as other people that are very much following what's going on.
(41:14):
Yeah, there are real world consequences to all this. And like you're saying, the Bosnians have gone through a genocide. And it's one of those things we need to educate ourselves and help other people understand that it is good to educate yourself to see people talking about having book burnings and burning
literature and whatnot that they don't agree with. I think that is extremely damaging to it's removing that that information and only positive. It only helps you learn. Yeah. And when you have when you have an ignorant population, it's easier to control for one. But then, you know, you get less, I feel like there's less empathy through ignorance.
(41:55):
Because if you don't know, obviously, you can't know about things like the Bosnian genocide or people talking about it. If that becomes restricted at all. Like, let's say down the line, even having a podcast like this talking about the Bosnian genocide, the Palestinians, what's happening in Syria, Lebanon, and even like Ukraine, Russia.
(42:18):
You know, if you're not allowed to even talk about information like that. I'm not saying that that's going to happen per se, but I'm just saying hypothetically, you know, how is that really actually helping anybody? So I kind of want to finish my thought a little bit on on what we're left off with the seven mountain mandates.
So we're going to say seven mountain mandates. It's about taking over these seven spheres of influence. Where in Jesus teachings do we see him talking about holding power over anyone or anything? He very explicitly rebukes any power and criticize the Pharisees for that very thing.
(42:52):
If we are Christians, or rather Christ-like, Jesus teachings should be viewed as a final authority over any Old Testament as well as any writings by Luke, John, James, Paul, or any other authors in the Bible. Not to say that those aren't important. I think we should still read those and take them to heart.
But if we are Christ-like, we should be holding that into a higher esteem than anything else in the Bible. And, you know, basically, he rebukes a lot of this power structure through, you know, of the Pharisees.
(43:19):
You know, if it doesn't liberate like Jesus, if it doesn't set the oppressed free, if it doesn't deliver the good news to the poor, then it's not the gospel of Jesus. There's a lot of things trying to camouflage themselves as Christianity, but they don't look and sound like Jesus.
And that's kind of like where I get held up on a lot of this is, you know, we platform a lot of these people, we bring them up and a lot of the rhetoric, a lot of the stuff that's being pushed doesn't sound like Jesus whatsoever.
(43:45):
Yet Christians are the ones that are backing them. Christians are the ones that are that are making, you know, basically using apologetics to say that what they're doing is God ordained.
One of the fruits of the Spirit is not power.
Dominating, I Googled the seven mountains because I didn't know what they all were, but family, religion, education, media, arts, entertainment, business, and government.
(44:10):
Yeah, those are the seven mountain mandates. Yeah.
Yikes.
Yeah. So it's basically, you know, all of society. It's what makes society run. It's all of culture.
So when you have things that don't look like Jesus being instituted in these spheres of influence, how is that Christ-like?
Yeah. Yeah. There's a really cool, did you ever follow the Bible project on YouTube?
(44:36):
Yeah. Yeah.
There's like a sermon that Tim Mackey did, and I need to rewatch it, but he basically is saying that a lot of Christians think of our faith as we die, we go to heaven, and that's why Jesus came for us, to just save us for the next life.
And he's saying like the way he sees it and the way he sees it as like actually good news is that we can live on earth and bring what Jesus started here by loving people, being good at what we do.
(45:07):
You know, if you're a therapist, being really good at being a therapist, if you're a carpenter, being really good at being a carpenter, building things for people and communities, that I think is what actually bringing heaven to earth is supposed to be.
And I think the Christian Nationalist sees that idea and they go, oh yeah, so controlling these seven things, and that's just a distortion.
(45:28):
And that's based on works and controlling other people instead of just loving people the way Jesus loved people and empowering people to have whatever beliefs they want.
And I believe this, but you don't have to believe, but I believe to be safe here.
That's more like Jesus, in my opinion, that whatever this controlling and winning of a culture or is, you know.
(45:54):
Yeah, and you talked about works and laws based in your notes here and what I've noticed and it's my experience that Christian nationalism is very legalistic in its way.
It uses Bible verses, but it uses those to achieve a certain goal, whereas Jesus' teachings, if we're actually following that, is very relational in nature.
And there's just a very distinct difference in how that kind of operates and what Jesus is teaching versus what we're seeing being pushed by Christian nationalism.
(46:24):
I had a quote actually based on some of your notes here.
So this is within a book called Church Called Tove, a great book, another one I would recommend reading.
But it says, a system or culture that perpetuates abuse will question the motives of those who ask questions. Make the discussion of problems the problem.
Condemn those who condemn. Silence those who break silence and descend upon those who dissent.
(46:49):
And I feel like even some of the rhetoric with some of the politicians, even that have been appointed by Trump, we have seen some of that.
Even before this last election cycle, we have seen it with a lot of people within the Christian nationalist circles that try to demonize and other people and silence people by kind of making them the enemy.
(47:10):
And as we heard, you know, has been said, the enemy within. I think it was might have been Trump that said that.
I quote I had saved from a guy I follow on Instagram, Zachary Hilton, who said Christian nationalism has hijacked both faith and American identity.
It made Christianity about power instead of love, and it made patriotism about exclusion rather than liberty and justice.
(47:33):
It's so true. It's just it's definitely hijacked all the faith.
Jesus isn't afraid of our questions. And Jesus isn't afraid of people that don't look or act like me.
And I think that's that needs to be said more. We talked about like when we first talked about how you like switch foot.
And I think that's something John Foreman talks about all the time is like, can have your doubts because God's not scared of those like, you know, John Foreman is a good guy.
(48:01):
He's a good hippie. He's a good hippie. Yeah, that's a good way of putting it.
Yeah, I mean, like what you were saying, I mean, religious freedom is only religious freedom if it benefits people that are that are both claiming it.
It's part of that hijacking. It's part of that patriotism exclusion within the justice system.
So, yeah, yeah. And like I talked to my my bandmate again and she was like, people forget that the story we tell ourselves for how we were founded is that people were were fleeing from the British,
(48:33):
the British persecution of their beliefs, the Puritans or whatever.
I like if that's part of the founding, obviously, now the people that moved here from England were good.
But like, if that's part of the founding, why would we perpetuate that?
You know, you have to be the Church of like the Church of England, otherwise you're not really following God.
That's basically what they we teach in school is what they were fleeing.
(48:57):
And that's why they came to a different world. So, so I think we should play another clip, actually.
For the foundation, there's the clip debate 1877 teams on the nation.
Yeah, Kenton talks about the founding of the nation and how it's based on Christian values and everything.
So I want to play that. I have a few thoughts on that. I'm sure you do, too.
(49:19):
Kind of talk about that a little bit.
When you look at the founding of the of the nation, what do you see there?
So I would argue or I would claim that at the founding of this nation, we were founded as a Christian nation,
but that we have since shedded that label that that we have abandoned God.
(49:40):
And I would argue that we're under his judgment now. So we were a Christian nation.
We are no longer. I would say that every or almost every founder of this nation subscribed to Christian beliefs.
King George even called the American Revolution one time the Presbyterian Revolution.
So there is a fundamental Christian founding in this nation because the ones who founded it operated on a fundamentally Christian worldview.
(50:08):
All right. Yeah. So short clip. But did you want to jump into it or you want me to kind of.
Oh, you can go.
All right. So I'll start with a quote by Eric McDaniel. He's an associate professor of government at the University of Texas.
He says the idea of Christian nationhood fills Americans needs for an origin story, a belief that we've come here for something special and that we're here for God's work,
(50:31):
which is a pretty big slap in the face that the idea that this nation was founded on Christian principles, I believe is laughable.
I'm sure some of the founding fathers may have held Christian views and practices in their private lives.
But when it came down to the writings of the founding fathers documents, there was a unanimous decision to segregate church from state to say otherwise is to to devisate history and furthers Christian nationalistic apologetics.
(50:57):
And I'm sure a lot of my listeners are, you know, would like to correct me on a lot of the founding fathers principles and writings and whatnot.
I wouldn't say I'm a huge scholar by any means on all this.
I have done some research over the years and talked with people about some of the stuff.
So I have my own ideas and whatnot. But I would welcome anybody to DM me or email me.
(51:22):
And I would love to hear you. But to further on, I'll kind of go into some of this.
So Thomas Paine, who influenced the American Revolution with his pamphlet Common Sense, insisted that every national church or religion accuses the others of unbelief.
For my own part, I just believe them all. So both Benjamin Franklin, who is a known deist, and Thomas Jefferson agreed in that sentiment.
(51:45):
Jefferson denied that Jesus was a member of the Godhead.
And Franklin decried Christian church services for promoting church membership instead of trying to make us good citizens.
He also criticized all religions for making orthodoxy more regarded than virtue.
He insisted that man be judged not for what we thought, but what we did, that we did good to our fellow preacher.
(52:07):
Most of the founding fathers shared his sentiment with this.
Even John Adams, a devout churchgoing congregationalist, signed the 1796 Treaty of Tripoli that the United States is not in any sense a Christian nation.
And the 23 present members in the U.S. Senate ratified the document unanimously.
All three of the nation's founding documents, the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation, and the United States Constitution, carefully avoid all mention of Christianity or Christ.
(52:37):
Article 6 of the Constitution even states that there is no religious test should ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.
Only the Declaration of Independence mentions God in a single ambiguous reference with which deists, rather than practicing Christians, called them the laws of nature and nature's God, which is far from a very Christian view of who God is.
(53:04):
So that's my little blah on the founding of this nation as a Christian nation.
So I don't know if you have any thoughts on that at all.
Yeah, I mean, I've heard the stories of like Thomas Jefferson cutting up the Bible and taking up parts he didn't like.
You know, most of the founding fathers own slaves.
(53:25):
There was that clip. I think we could play that at some point.
Yeah. If you want to play right now, even.
Yeah. Was it called, let's see, let's go, the preacher one?
Yes, the preacher. That was the one you sent me.
Yeah, awesome.
That's why I have such deep issue with this Christian nationalist movement, saying that America ought to be a Christian nation.
(53:54):
Who's Christianity? Do you want the Christianity of the colonizers who use Christianity to justify the eradication of indigenous people?
Do you want the Christianity of misogynists who even now in Project 25 are trying to roll back the 19th Amendment and remove women from the right to vote?
Or maybe you want the slave trader Christianity that use Christianity to justify the enslavement and the killing of millions of Africans and declared slaves obey your master?
(54:27):
Or maybe you like the Christianity of Bull Connor, a deacon in his church in Alabama, taught Sunday school on Sunday, but on Monday released police dogs on peaceful protesters who are fighting for their right to vote.
Or maybe you want the Christianity of Westboro Baptist Church that says God hates queer folk.
(54:48):
Or maybe you want the Christianity of the Southern Baptist Convention, which says that Black Lives Matter is a heresy.
Or maybe you want the Christianity of the National Baptist Convention that still won't allow women to stand and preach.
What Christianity do you want to reign over this land?
Well, thanks for sharing that.
(55:10):
I do recall Tim Whitaker bringing this up.
He talks about, you know, what time in history was this good time that we need to go back to?
And what the preacher was talking about, Tim even brings it up. He says, you know, do we go back to where slaves were being held?
Do we go back to Jim Crow laws? Do we go back to all these atrocious things that have happened in American history?
(55:33):
And Kenton, he comes back and he says, it's funny that you bring up the worst parts of history.
How are we not supposed to bring up the worst parts of history?
It's this thing that I've seen play out over and over again where it's like they gloss over the nasty parts of history to talk about why they think it's good.
(55:58):
They purposefully try to navigate the conversation around a full picture as opposed to these things that have happened.
We have received that big name Christian people within history have been advocates for these big things.
People that influence the common folk, people that influence the general population of America, have been advocates for these things like slavery for the Jim Crow laws.
(56:24):
And it's almost like they don't want to talk about what's uncomfortable.
They don't want to address the things that don't line up with their Christian worldview.
It's like they want to only focus on the things that further an agenda.
And I don't know if you have any thoughts on that. I'm sure you do.
I think it's hard to hit close up. I don't know who said that first.
(56:49):
But if you know people in these groups, if you know somebody who follows the Black Lives Matter movement,
if you know somebody who, you know, in any of these groups, you're not going to have this like fear based response to it.
Like this threatens you when it's just a person existing. And I think that that fear based reactionary kind of hatred that has been like boiling up over the years in different forms.
(57:19):
And we've grown, you know, women have the right to vote now.
You know, we got past the Jim Crow laws. But like so I do think like our country does get better over time, but not without a fight and not without people, you know, standing up for that.
And I was talking to my spouse about this. He was like, where are the times of Christianity was the best?
He's like Mother Teresa, like helping kids, you know, like starting an orphanage.
(57:45):
I thought of like, you know, like Corrie Ten Boom, like hiding Jewish people in her house in the Netherlands during that Nazi Germany's occupation of the Netherlands.
You know, when was Christianity the worst? And then we can name them. Right. We know.
And if we ignore those times when we were the worst, we will strive to be like Harriet Tubman saving people in the underground railroad.
(58:08):
Like that that's when we read our best, you know. And so it is important to talk about the good times and the bad times.
So, yeah, can say you're only focusing on the bad. We don't want to go back to it.
You know, we should we should learn from it as all I guess is the more.
That's it for today's episode of Grub and Grace.
I really hope you enjoyed our discussion with Sarah about if Christian nationalism is good for society.
(58:31):
Unfortunately, due to the length of the recording, I had to split it up into two episodes.
So come back next week and I'll have that up for you.
I just want to give another big thank you to Sarah for joining me on this episode.
See you guys in the next episode.
And as always, stay curious, keep an open mind and celebrate the traditions that bring us all together.
Matthew 7, 7-11
(00:03):
Ask, and it will be given to you.
Search, and you will find.
Knock, and the door will be opened for you.
For everyone who asks, receives.
For everyone who searches, finds.
And for everyone who knocks, the door will be opened.
Is there anyone among you who, if your child asked for bread, would give a stone?
(00:25):
Or if the child asked for fish, would give a snake?
If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children,
how much more will your Father in Heaven give good gifts to those who ask him?
Dietrich Bonhoeffer was a man of deep theological conviction,
in a time and place where speaking out from his moral quandaries became a criminal offense.
(00:49):
Bonhoeffer became a pastor at the time that Hitler was taking power.
Churches were slowly being co-opted by the Nazis.
Christianity was rapidly succumbing to secularism.
The Holocaust had already begun construction at the first concentration camp at Dachau.
And through all this, German Christians were astonishingly silent.
(01:10):
Bonhoeffer came to a central belief that following Christ in a secular world required the whole self.
He was a pacifist, conflicted in the face of a Nazi regime.
So when he joined a plot to assassinate Hitler, he considered it a grave moral wrong
for which he would have to repent and ask for forgiveness.
He understood that what seemingly was a clear-cut defeat of evil, wasn't devoid of moral bankruptcy.
(01:37):
We all would like to think that there is a clear moral path,
and that we need to accomplish certain things in order to achieve that goal.
When in reality, it's not as black and white and binary as we would like to believe.
When we start to believe that the end justifies the means, or however that phrase manifests itself,
(01:58):
we can very easily step over and even justify harming our friends, our neighbors, and even our family
in order to achieve the outcome that we desire.
Bonhoeffer, in his book The Cost of Discipleship, talks about a concept called cheap grace.
Cheap grace, which is the grace which amounts to the justification of the sin
(02:20):
without the justification of the repentant sinner, who departs from sin and from whom sin departs.
Cheap grace is preaching forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline,
communion without confession, and absolution without personal confession.
Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, and grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate.
(02:49):
It can be easier to ask for forgiveness than to actually change.
The state's church was offering grace without absolution,
given without taking account for the wrongs and then sweeping them under the rug.
There was no humility, no accountability, no acknowledgement, and no honesty.
(03:10):
Eric Metaxas' book turned Bonhoeffer into a prophet for Christian nationalism,
when in reality Bonhoeffer abhorred the marriage of church and state.
The foreword of Metaxas' book was written by Kevin Roberts, and it states,
Open borders activism is a classic example of what the German theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer called cheap grace.
(03:32):
Publicly promoting one's own virtue without risking any personal inconvenience.
This right here is a classic dog whistle of anti-immigrant sentiment.
When it comes to Christian nationalism of Trump and his cabinet,
Forgive them, say the ministers who have embraced them, but they haven't repented.
Accept them as Christians, they say, but they have shown no signs of confession or discipleship.
(03:58):
Trust them, they say, but they lie.
This isn't about religion. It's about power, control, and using faith as a means to justify oppression.
Theirs is a grace that thinks that representations of the cross and the American flag are substance of Christian faith.
This is a movement that uses Bonhoeffer as a political mascot, and has idolized Jesus and the Bible.
(04:26):
In Luke 4, Jesus rejected Satan's temptation to have power and dominance over all the nations.
So why do we now give it so freely?
Paul Tillich sums it up very nicely by saying,
The cross is opposed to holiness of nation, race, blood, and power.
The answer to cheap grace can be found in Matthew 7, 7-11.
(04:50):
Knock, and you shall receive.
The answer is the act of pursuing God.
Bonhoeffer urges us to live in a concept he calls costly grace.
Such grace is costly because it asks us to follow, and it is grace because it calls us to follow Jesus Christ.
(05:11):
True Christian faith knows nothing of power, or violence, or riches, or pride.
It is the antithesis of Christian nationalism.
Or, in other terms, Christian nationalism is anti-Christ in nature.
The episode you're about to listen to was recorded a little over a month ago, and since then quite a bit has happened.
(05:38):
So here's a couple things that have happened.
The murder of Brian Thompson became a bipartisan issue,
where the working class realized that it's not a left versus right, but rather an up versus down.
Israel and Hamas sign a ceasefire deal, but they continue to indiscriminately bomb Palestinians and annex the West Bank.
(06:00):
Musk seemingly gave two Nazi-esque salutes, which the media continues to gaslight people into believing that it's not that.
Trump issues ICE deportation raids in Chicago only a day after the inauguration.
Bishop Marion Edgar Buddy was condemned for giving a sermon asking for mercy and compassion on the marginalized and the foreigner,
(06:25):
even having her message labeled as satanic.
Framing someone as demonic is dehumanizing, and it's a thought-stopping cliché.
It reduces everything to a zero-sum binary game, where everything is black and white.
There are good guys, there are bad guys, and there is nothing in between.
This is simply a corrosive and destructive way to look at the world.
(06:50):
I do wholeheartedly pray for this nation, and that people's hearts will be moved and impacted,
heeding the call to reject cheap grace and pursue costly grace.
The following conversation is somewhat of a response to a debate between Tim Whitaker and Kenton Little
regarding the topic, is Christian nationalism good for society?
(07:13):
My guest Sarah and I attempt to engage this topic with humility and good faith dialogue without dehumanization.
We may not be the most well-versed in this topic, so I ask for grace as we navigate this question.
Speaking for myself, I wish I spoke a little bit more eloquently.
I used a lot of ums and I paused a lot.
(07:36):
But if you are listening to the audio-only version of this, I was able to finesse the audio and clean it up a little bit.
So, without further ado, I truly hope you enjoy this conversation.
Welcome to Grub & Grace. I am Mark Flower.
(07:58):
I am here with my guest Sarah and we will be talking on Christian nationalism and having a response video
based on a debate that Tim Whitaker and Kenton Little had on the Dead Men Walking podcast.
Sarah, thank you for coming on here.
Yeah, no problem.
Sarah, why don't you tell me a little bit about yourself?
Yeah, I went to Christian school all growing up.
(08:21):
I went to the same church that I've been going to since I was probably, let's say, nine years old. I don't know if that's right.
But around that age, I did like a two-year college program through my church that did like college credits for certificate in theology.
And then, yeah, I'm in a band.
(08:42):
I just have been really passionate about this topic since the election pretty much.
I'm a very progressive voter.
So I voted for Kamala Harris and Tim Walz.
And I didn't really expect them to lose.
So I was a little bit stunned by that.
But anyway, not to bring it all about politics, but this topic, it seems like a pretty important conversation to have.
(09:09):
So happy to be here and to bring any insight I have on all those things.
Yeah, I'm happy you're here.
And this conversation, I mean, you don't have to apologize. It is a very political topic.
Christian nationalism wasn't about it this year.
And whether people know about it, admit it or not, it was.
You got Project 2025, which was designed by people within that sphere, in that realm.
(09:34):
And it was designed in a way to encapsulate a lot of these Christian fundamentalist values.
So in a way, it is very much a very political conversation we're having.
Yeah, absolutely.
So like I said, we are going to be having this conversation about a response to a video that was posted on the Dead Men Walking podcast with Tim Whitaker and Kenton Little.
(09:58):
Tim Whitaker is the host of the New Evangelical podcast.
And Kenton Little, I think he said he has a platform, but he hasn't really been very active.
So I forget what that was exactly.
But they go on talking about the topic of is Christian nationalism good for society?
And Tim is on the side of saying, no, it's not. He tries to break it down.
(10:22):
Kenton Little shares his views on why it is good for society.
I thought it kind of got off topic a little bit here and there where it kind of reverted into is Christian nationalism good in general as opposed to good for society?
I think they brought it back here and there.
The host of Dead Men Walking did bring it back.
I was glad for that made it for a very enjoyable listen.
So I don't know, Sarah, what are your what are your thoughts on the whole debate that they had?
(10:46):
Yeah. So I think we have a clip of the opening statement from Kenton that kind of spurred me to make some notes here.
I've just been just really mulling over this topic the last three or four months and just thinking this is, in my opinion, not a Christ like movement.
It's not an American movement.
It's a belief that, you know, a nation should make laws to enforce only Christian beliefs onto their citizens.
(11:11):
I think we've seen this in history enough times to know that it's not positive for society.
I'm starting with like the first Christian emperor, Constantine, requiring people to go to church, even if they didn't speak Latin.
That obviously doesn't seem like it would create real, genuine Christ followers.
And then just focusing in general, I talked to a good friend who's in my band and she was saying like,
(11:38):
we talk all our lives about how like Jesus is supposed to change your heart and like the inside and not the outside doesn't matter as much.
I mean, it does matter. But like if you don't change the inside, the outside doesn't do it.
And so like that's kind of what Christian nationalism seems to me is it's all about the outside and forcing people to look and act like you do.
So, yeah, my premise or like idea that I've been thinking since Bible college is just I would rather live in a society where Christianity is banned.
(12:11):
I'd rather live there than in a society where Christians are the oppressors,
because I think real Christians would come out of society where it's harder to be a Christian versus in a society where everyone is forced to believe what I believe.
Because I want people to actually know Jesus, not just pretend they know Jesus.
And I think more people will be pretending to know Jesus in a Christian nationalist.
(12:33):
So kind of like the idea of how a diamond is formed, you know, it's formed by the gravity of the earth pushing the rocks together
and really just kind of molding this precious rock into this beautiful thing that becomes the diamond.
That's kind of like the idea that I'm hearing from you is that where Christianity isn't the norm,
if somebody were to believe in that, it would be a more genuine thing than if they're around, you know, a whole plethora of people around them that where it's become commonplace to become a Christian.
(13:03):
To at least say that you're Christian, whether you believe or not.
And yeah, I think I definitely agree with you on that.
Yeah, thanks. And the other thing that I think is strange about it is I hear in church all the time,
my church even says this and I don't like it when they do, that like it's unpopular to be Christian.
And I'm like, I think a lot of our society is Christian.
(13:24):
I've witnessed to people and they've been like, I live in America.
I know about Jesus. And I'm like, oh, right. My bad. You know, and like, I don't think to say we're being oppressed or that we're being like,
persecuted is insane because most of us are Christians or we're raised Christians.
And I think it's kind of making a self-fulfilling prophecy where like if you push your religion on other people, they're not going to like it.
(13:50):
And then people think that that's oppression. And that's just being like not popular, which is not the same thing.
They're just giving you an honest opinion as opposed to like lashing out and creating laws.
Basically saying that you can't live in this country. So the thing and yeah, they're not doing that.
If you look at the statistics of the PRRI Institute or PRRI, which the I stands for Institute.
(14:16):
But they came out with a study. It was it was like a decade long study from twenty four twenty thirteen to twenty twenty three.
And what they found was that I think they found that 41 percent of Americans classify themselves as Christian,
whatever that that degree looks like. But they consider themselves Christian. Yeah.
(14:38):
If you look at that further, they they found that I think it was twenty twenty one percent in twenty twenty three
say that they attend at least one service of church a week, which is like half of the people that claim themselves Christian.
Yeah. Forty one percent. That's I mean, that's a little less than half of all Americans that claim themselves Christian.
(14:59):
But still, as far as religions go in America, that is clearly the majority.
If you look at any other statistics, that is by far larger than any other religion represented in America.
So to say that they're persecuted, I mean, I think it's laughable.
But I agree. That's I think what people I think are using to justify this pushing of our beliefs into laws.
(15:23):
Like, I think that's what's like their justification is, oh, this is like we're being persecuted.
So we need to like put we need to be more aggressive or something.
And that's not what Jesus would do. And that doesn't match what I feel like Jesus is wanting us to do.
A little it's just a little weird, really aggressive thing.
(15:44):
I feel like a lot of it, it could be tied down to privilege.
I know that term is thrown around quite a bit.
But if you don't see something as a problem, that might be your own privilege that it doesn't impact you personally.
And just just thinking that people having their own beliefs is persecution.
(16:05):
That seems like exactly what you're saying. A privilege.
Actually being persecuted in like another country where it's illegal is way.
That's the real definition of persecution, not just a guy at work doesn't like me or I often hear like the anecdote.
Like you don't you get passed on over a promotion for being Christian.
And I've never heard anybody actually say that's happened to them.
(16:26):
So when I hear that anecdotally during a sermon, I'm always like, who told me who?
And then maybe they can work next door at the same business, but on by a different person.
Who the guys are Christian. That's all he wants to hire.
Like, I feel like it's the most popular demographic in religion.
So that's just odd to me that that's.
Yeah. And another thing is, is when people say that they've been persecuted in America, I feel like it kind of waters it down.
(16:52):
The idea of being persecuted for being a Christian, because it does actually happen around the world.
And it's not something that we should take lightly because you see this happening in places like Nepal or like other places in the countries that have laws set up that they try to reduce and limit the amount of people that that are bringing outside religion into the country for various reasons.
(17:14):
They do that. But but I've known people personally that have had direct contact with people that have been found out through the government that they have been that they have taken Jesus in their hearts and they have been imprisoned because of it.
Where they've been excommunicated from the country or even heard cases of like being beaten and stuff like that.
(17:38):
So it should definitely not be taken lightly. And especially if it's being claimed here in America when people aren't being jailed because they're Christian, they're not being beaten because they're Christian.
They're not, you know, if someone says like, you can't buy food from my store because you're Christian, that's still persecution.
But we don't actually hear any stories about that.
(17:59):
We hear stories about them turning down people who are like gay or lesbian or LGBTQ trans, you know, from buying like a cake at their shop or they don't want to photograph their wedding.
Like, I don't know. There's mixed opinions on a lot of that.
But I definitely don't see any articles or any news reports about someone being Christian and having someone say, no, I'm not going to I'm not going to do this for you because you're Christian.
(18:26):
So I feel like it's a completely different story here in America.
Yeah, I think if anything, we are the people doing the persecuting in a way with different groups, whether we don't like them for any reason, because we're the majority.
And I've never had a friend who doesn't believe, tell me they're mad at me because of my beliefs.
I've always been like, oh, like, Sarah's Christian. That's cool.
(18:48):
You know, I don't, you know, I'm not I've never encountered as a Christian person, except for when I was a little girl and I asked my friend to like ask Jesus into her heart.
And she was like, no, I'm good. Have I ever felt like rejected because I was that was the last time.
And that lady today believes in Jesus. So like, that's very funny.
Circle, circle. I was like, do you remember when we were kids and like you just you just turned me down and she's like, I do remember that.
(19:14):
That's hilarious. But yeah, like, I don't think I've ever felt othered because being a Christian just besides people being like, oh, like, Sarah doesn't do these things because, you know, that's not persecution.
That's people being like, that's the good kid. Just, you know, yeah, you know, that's that's to be expected and not persecution.
I wanted to talk about Kenton, but I didn't know if we should play the clip before I.
(19:40):
Yeah, why don't we go and play the clip? Should we? So this clip, should we should we get a little bit of play it and then we'll talk about it after.
Let's let our viewers kind of watch it.
So we're talking about Christian nationalism today and we're talking about the subject. Does it help society?
Does Christian nationalism help society? And we've already been given a definition of that.
(20:03):
What I want to frame is that Christian nationalism is the idea, a more simplified definition that Christian nationalism is the idea that the nations ought to base their laws and their customs on what God has revealed in his word.
And this comes from this. The foundation for this idea is based on what Jesus said before he ascended into heaven.
(20:24):
His final words, the Great Commission, the words of our Lord. Right.
If all of us are professing Christians, we should all affirm what Jesus has commanded us. His final commandment before he ascends into heaven.
Matthew chapter twenty eight. All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I've commanded you.
(20:49):
And behold, I am with you always to the end of the age.
So the Great Commission provides us the foundation for Christian nationalism.
What it is, is that Jesus is making the claim that all authority on earth has been given to him.
And because of his authority, because the earth belongs to him, his disciples should go.
And the language that he uses is make disciples of the nations, baptize the nations and teach the nations to observe all that God has commanded, all that Christ commanded.
(21:19):
So if Christ's commandment is that we should make disciples of the nations, then the question is, is what Christ is commanding good for the people he's commanding it for?
Well, well, who is Christ? Again, we are all Christians in this in this conversation here.
We all claim to be Christians in this conversation here.
And so we all believe that Christ is the second person of the Trinity, that he is indeed God and therefore that he is the creator of all things that he created heaven and earth.
(21:46):
Right, Tim, would you would you agree with that? What that Jesus created the heaven and earth? Yes. Yeah. OK, good.
I affirm the Trinity. I affirm the virgin birth, resurrection from all that. Awesome. Fantastic.
And so what we understand, all three of us, is that God created all things and then he called all things very good.
And so if he created all things and created all things very good, then we can infer from that that all things that he commands are for the good of the people he created it for.
(22:15):
So if God's commandments are fundamentally good and Jesus commanded that the nations should bow down and obey him, that we should go and disciple the nations, that the nation should be baptized in the Trinitarian name,
then what we say when we say that Christian nationalism is fundamentally not biblical or fundamentally not good for society, what we're saying is that that thing that God has commanded,
(22:39):
what Christ has commanded that we obey is not good for society. What we're doing is we're taking our own wisdom and we are putting our own wisdom above what God has commanded
and putting ourselves in his place to say, no, I have more knowledge about how the world works. I know what's better for society than what Jesus does.
So if Christ has claimed that all authority belongs to him and based on that authority that we should go and make disciples of all nations, that the nation should obey him,
(23:07):
he's doing that for our good and for his glory. Everything that God commands, he commands for our good and for his glory.
He says all things work together for good to them that love God and to those who are called according to his purpose.
So what we're talking about is, is it good for society? And what we're going to get into when we're talking about that is what constitutes good for society, right?
(23:29):
Is being a part of another religion that is opposed to the religion of scripture, is that good for society? Is being homosexual good for society?
Is abortion good for society? Are these things, these cultural issues that Christian nationalists like myself would oppose, are they good for society?
Or should we affirm all these things in opposition to what Christ has commanded in his word?
(23:54):
And so Christian nationalism is good for society because Christ does not command things that are not good for the people he created.
All right. There's a whole lot in that.
There's a whole lot of those ponzu there.
Do you want to jump off or would you rather I jump off now?
Oh, I will just start with, definitely hold your thoughts.
Okay, yes, I will.
(24:15):
I would just say like, it's a weak argument in my opinion because are there more authentic Christians when you've in Constantine's Christian Empire or are there more authentic real Christians where Christianity is banned?
I would argue I don't need our society to ban our religion.
I obviously don't want that.
(24:36):
But I definitely think there is a higher chance that people will actually know Jesus and be changed on the inside when we don't force it on other people.
People should come to Jesus on their own, not because I tell them to.
Like my friend when I was a little kid said she's not interested.
I didn't need to. I did ask her again. Of course I did.
I was a little kid. But like you can't make somebody believe on anything.
(25:01):
You shouldn't try.
I don't think that's what free will is for, to force others to force your will on them.
So yeah, I don't think society benefits most and Christianity benefits most when Christians are pushing it on other people through laws in general.
So yeah, that's my thoughts on that. But I do have more.
(25:22):
But I would love to hear your thoughts now.
I feel like Kenton has a lot of assumptions that he brings to his interpretation of scripture.
He even talks about all things that help.
All things were created for good.
Yeah, so all things were created for good through God.
Does that only apply to people that are within the Christian nationalist sphere that adhere to this one translation?
(25:45):
I think it's the ESV, King James.
I think the ESV is the updated version of the King James.
But I think it's that if you only adhere to the ESV and you see that as the only translation, we haven't talked about how many different denominations are in the world.
There's 45,000 different denominations in the world.
(26:06):
How can there be one way that is the correct way when there for decades, for millennia, even there has been all this debate on how to interpret scripture,
how to interpret these scripts that people have written throughout the years that they have been written.
And so how can you say that there's only one?
I think it is funny that even in verse 20, it says, and teach them to obey everything I commanded you.
(26:32):
In Christian nationalistic rhetoric, where are the teachings of feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, welcoming and caring for the poor, visiting the sick and in prison, valuing and listening to women, showing love and compassion and empathy to the marginalized people?
I think the core rhetoric and the actions that I've seen in Christian nationalism that I've heard from other people are around the seven mountain mandates.
(26:54):
I'm sure you've heard it as maybe the seven spheres of influence, which I think is based in Isaiah 2,2, when it talks about in the basically end of days, God will make his kingdom on the mountaintops.
And they've basically taken that and translated it as these seven areas of influence in society that they can pretty much take over and instill God's word through these seven spheres of influence.
(27:20):
Is that from that new apostolic reformation group?
Yes.
So it's all very, very new.
They're like a full right wing, but they're growing, it seems to be, within our political.
I think it's in the past, was it 30 or 50 years?
It's pretty recent that all this new ideology and new verbiage has been used.
(27:42):
If you want more information of connecting the dots, I would highly suggest reading the book by Christian Dumais or Christian Cobes Dumais.
It's Jesus and John Wayne.
I have been recommended that several times. I do need to read it.
Here's another recommendation. It is fantastic.
It talks about these kind of the beginning of this movement and the connecting of dots between the religious leaders, or not even leaders, I guess, leaders within the religious area of Christianity and the and they're kind of marrying a connection to politics and the government and working these ideas into policies.
(28:19):
And so it's kind of built up over time from then up until now. And obviously we see it with Project 2025 and a lot of these ideas and policies are being pushed within this new project, as you say.
Who have been streamed by the Republican Party in the last, since 2016, maybe? I don't know if those were as popular.
(28:40):
What was this popular?
Just how connected the Republican Party has gotten with these extremist religious leader people.
I wonder how long that's just been the whole time. Did the book cover that?
I mean, I've heard a lot of it's been over time. It's been growing over time.
And I wouldn't say it was I was married to it. Like I said, it's like the last 50 years that this has been a growing thing. And with each year, they gain more connection, more power within the Republican Party.
(29:13):
When you look at the Christians, specifically Christian voters, PRI has a lot of statistics on this of the percentage of population.
I forget the actual numbers, but it's the vast majority of Christians, people that claim they're Christians that vote Republican. It's a very small minority group within the entirety of the Christian network that is more of a progressive Christian.
(29:34):
And I feel like nowadays there's a lot more jumping off that boat into the more progressive side. I've definitely seen a lot more of that happening.
I might just have to say, yeah, it's been a growing thing within the Republican Party and people that weren't really focused on politics. That was a thing within Christianity where politics weren't as big.
It wasn't until churches started including subtleties in their messages where they're not flat out saying who to focus on. They're not saying we believe in this or whatnot.
(30:03):
We're seeing a lot more of that now where they're getting a lot more bold with their statements. But it wasn't always like that. It was kind of one of those slow burn things where they bring in just a little bit here and there, whereas there's dog whistles.
The dog whistles are basically, here's how we need to think about LGBTQ people. Here's how we need to think about what's going on with AIDS and everything back in the 80s. Here's when we need to think about the Black Lives Matter movements.
(30:33):
Even before then, the Black Panthers were making known the struggles that they were going through and they were demonized by the church because of that. It was one of those slow burn things. It was very, I want to say calculated in a way.
It was kind of like boiling the lobster. You start with a lower temperature and then you slowly crank it up a little bit. That's the way I've heard it being said that that's what I've seen in my own experience within the church and just within my friendships and community.
(31:05):
So interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Back to the denomination. I put my notes. I remembered reading the book about Bonhoeffer, which is totally written by a British nationalist. Don't buy his book.
Erickman Taxes sucks. But his book I liked. So you can buy it secondhand if you really want to read it or I'd lend it to anybody.
(31:27):
He talks about how Bonhoeffer reached out to the other denominations and built friendships and just encouraged unity between those groups in order to help him resist the Nazification of the Lutheran Church during the time of Hitler.
That seems like an antidote to this. Our way is the only right way. I mean, I guess there could be some evil uniting of all the people to hate people. But I just can't see that because we'd have to acknowledge, oh, you believe differently about like, I don't know, taking communion.
(32:02):
You know, you believe this about it. I believe it doesn't matter if you take it with bread or if you do with wine. You know, like just acknowledging that like there's not just one Christianity that is right and good and everybody follows mine and they would actually be following Jesus.
That's, I think, what leads to an extremism of my way is the only way that's right. And it's not healthy. So speaking of Bonhoeffer, especially Erickman Taxes, I haven't read his book, but I know from my, the retellings of Bonhoeffer and his contribution to, you know, theology and to processing the Bible is whenever it's taught.
(32:42):
Like my Christian university that I went to, they did a Bonhoeffer week every single week, and I am pretty sure they still do it.
Every year, sorry. Yeah.
A week every year. And one thing that I can't remember them ever actually calling out was the church, the general German church, the large capital C German church, basically sold themselves out to the government under Hitler.
(33:12):
They had to like sign pledges. They had to sign pledges. They had to, they basically said that they're working with the state. They're under the government and they're under the influence of the government. They're under the laws and whatnot.
And the separation of churches state became unified and one. And there was a lack of calling that out. There was, there was a heavy influence on Bonhoeffer calling out Nazis and that's the ideology and what they were doing.
(33:42):
They didn't really, they didn't really call out the church. There was only small, like small groups and communities which became the minority within the church, the German church that were actually standing out, calling them out.
They quickly became enemies of the state because they were standing against the state of Germany. And I just had to make a mention of that because especially, yeah, it's important. It's a very important part of it.
(34:08):
Another thing I see with the telling of Bonhoeffer in the church is that they talk about the very end days of Bonhoeffer where he plotted to kill Hitler. And they almost glorify this as this, this big grand finale moment of Bonhoeffer.
And when in reality Bonhoeffer did do that, Bonhoeffer did join a small rebellion and join this, make this plot to take out Hitler. But what they don't talk about is that Bonhoeffer never once attributed his violence as a God's will to do that.
(34:43):
He actually made a point to distance himself, distance those actions from God. And that is one thing that you almost never hear about in retellings of Bonhoeffer. One resource that I would actually like to point out, you mentioned the Metaxas book, which I think you'd agree don't read it.
I mean, if you want to read it, go ahead and read it. A cautionary tale. So Tripp Fuller's Homebrew Christianity came out with a mini series podcast about Bonhoeffer called The Rise of Bonhoeffer.
(35:20):
He goes very in detail. Each episode is like an hour long. It's like seven episodes, pretty much like a book, like an audio book. He brings in guests that have been studying Bonhoeffer for years and years and years. They know Bonhoeffer inside and out.
And he brings them on and they talk about Bonhoeffer and all this and they have like, you know, voice actors, voice acting, some of the quotes that Bonhoeffer has in the letters.
(35:43):
Yeah, so it's really well done, highly high production value. Very good and got great content. Talks about all the ins and outs, even the missed retellings of Bonhoeffer to the church.
So I would highly suggest you listen to that. What's so interesting is that I read the Metaxas version and I still came away with it being like, you're a Christian nationalist after all.
(36:06):
There's even a section in the book where he says there was a point where you are to be a German was to be a Christian and to be a Christian was to be a German and they were not separate.
And that led to the Nazis. He literally makes that clear. He's a total idiot for, in my opinion, just kind of harsh to say, but he's just, he's ridiculous for being so Christian nationalist now after writing about most anti-Christian nationalist person in modern times.
(36:35):
Like that's incredible hypocrisy. I think I think I would think some of that might be cognitive dissonance. Yeah, I see that a lot of that was my friends to where where there's a lot of basically you say one thing and you say another thing and they're very much in contradictory to each other.
Yet in their head, it's almost like they create a barrier between the two. They they disassociate both those ideas. So even though they're contradictory, they still verified in their head as both being true.
(37:05):
And I think, you know, to Eric Montax's defense to some degree is that you can't there's no direct correlation between Nazis and national Christian nationalism here in America in today's society, today's world.
There are similarities that you can say, hey, you know, these things that happen in Nazi Germany, there's similar things happening in America that are attributed to Christian nationalism. But there's no new Nazis to the whole.
(37:37):
Yeah.
Yeah, there's Nazi sympathizers here in America. I wouldn't necessarily say that that Christian nationalism is not. Not the exact same thing. No, but it seems to me that they're easily aligned in their ideas.
And, you know, it's one of those things that we're talking about Tim Whitaker to bring it all back. It's he's he makes it a point on his podcast and on his platforms to say that that we don't dehumanize. We don't we don't generalize.
(38:11):
We want to look at the facts, we want to look at the statistics and base our ideas off that and not, you know, demonize a whole group of people. So when we talk about Christian nationalism, it's a very broad topic. There are the thought leaders, there are the religious leaders, there are the political leaders within this world that are pushing things that are very, I would say, unhealthy and not good for society to say that all Christian nationalists are the same.
(38:37):
I think it's a big misunderstanding with the whole thing. So I think it's one of those things like we need to be reminded that we need to let each other know that, you know, we shouldn't be doing that because there's a lot more nuances within this.
But that's that's what we're doing here is we're picking out things and we need to talk about some of these these harmful rhetoric is harmful ideologies that are being brought forth and being trying to be put in policy, which, which I believe I think you do too, that will actually hurt people and have real life consequences.
(39:05):
Absolutely. And I think it's good what you said about not good to generalize, not good to say anybody who likes Eric Mitax is a terrible person. I don't think that I can tend to be hyperbolic in how I say things from time to time. All my friends know that about me.
Yeah. What you're saying about your school just like blocking out the part where the church was part of the part of what happened in Germany and how they were had to join forces basically with the Nazis. It's similar to me to I don't know if we're going off topic. So sorry, I am but I'm in Missouri and we've a lot of Bosnian refugees.
(39:39):
And a lot of people in Missouri who've been here a long time have complained about having Bosnian refugees. But what they don't understand a lot of times is that there was a genocide in Bosnia where Christians were killing Muslims.
And that's why they're people who had to flee their home where they lived to get away and to be safe. And then Christians here are complaining about immigrants.
(40:02):
And like that is because you're not getting the whole story like people who say they believe what we believe hurt these other people and we need to learn from that. So we don't repeat that. And I think that's important for us in Germany to know there are Christians that we're doing that stuff.
Mm hmm. Yeah, and then talk about genocide even get what's happening in Palestine and genocide of people. And there's a lot of people that are in denial that's even a genocide that it's got ordained or it's basically bringing upon the coming of the second coming of Jesus.
(40:36):
And it's incredibly harmful because people real people are getting, you know, unalived over there. And there are people that, like I said, are denying it. There are people that are choosing to stay in the dark about this, even though there's so many people that are talking out about
against it right now. And you look at the media and the media is basically blacking it out. They're only choosing to talk about one side of things. You almost have to go to social media to see actual videos that people are posting of the atrocities that are happening, as well as other people that are very much following what's going on.
(41:14):
Yeah, there are real world consequences to all this. And like you're saying, the Bosnians have gone through a genocide. And it's one of those things we need to educate ourselves and help other people understand that it is good to educate yourself to see people talking about having book burnings and burning
literature and whatnot that they don't agree with. I think that is extremely damaging to it's removing that that information and only positive. It only helps you learn. Yeah. And when you have when you have an ignorant population, it's easier to control for one. But then, you know, you get less, I feel like there's less empathy through ignorance.
(41:55):
Because if you don't know, obviously, you can't know about things like the Bosnian genocide or people talking about it. If that becomes restricted at all. Like, let's say down the line, even having a podcast like this talking about the Bosnian genocide, the Palestinians, what's happening in Syria, Lebanon, and even like Ukraine, Russia.
(42:18):
You know, if you're not allowed to even talk about information like that. I'm not saying that that's going to happen per se, but I'm just saying hypothetically, you know, how is that really actually helping anybody? So I kind of want to finish my thought a little bit on on what we're left off with the seven mountain mandates.
So we're going to say seven mountain mandates. It's about taking over these seven spheres of influence. Where in Jesus teachings do we see him talking about holding power over anyone or anything? He very explicitly rebukes any power and criticize the Pharisees for that very thing.
(42:52):
If we are Christians, or rather Christ-like, Jesus teachings should be viewed as a final authority over any Old Testament as well as any writings by Luke, John, James, Paul, or any other authors in the Bible. Not to say that those aren't important. I think we should still read those and take them to heart.
But if we are Christ-like, we should be holding that into a higher esteem than anything else in the Bible. And, you know, basically, he rebukes a lot of this power structure through, you know, of the Pharisees.
(43:19):
You know, if it doesn't liberate like Jesus, if it doesn't set the oppressed free, if it doesn't deliver the good news to the poor, then it's not the gospel of Jesus. There's a lot of things trying to camouflage themselves as Christianity, but they don't look and sound like Jesus.
And that's kind of like where I get held up on a lot of this is, you know, we platform a lot of these people, we bring them up and a lot of the rhetoric, a lot of the stuff that's being pushed doesn't sound like Jesus whatsoever.
(43:45):
Yet Christians are the ones that are backing them. Christians are the ones that are that are making, you know, basically using apologetics to say that what they're doing is God ordained.
One of the fruits of the Spirit is not power.
Dominating, I Googled the seven mountains because I didn't know what they all were, but family, religion, education, media, arts, entertainment, business, and government.
(44:10):
Yeah, those are the seven mountain mandates. Yeah.
Yikes.
Yeah. So it's basically, you know, all of society. It's what makes society run. It's all of culture.
So when you have things that don't look like Jesus being instituted in these spheres of influence, how is that Christ-like?
Yeah. Yeah. There's a really cool, did you ever follow the Bible project on YouTube?
(44:36):
Yeah. Yeah.
There's like a sermon that Tim Mackey did, and I need to rewatch it, but he basically is saying that a lot of Christians think of our faith as we die, we go to heaven, and that's why Jesus came for us, to just save us for the next life.
And he's saying like the way he sees it and the way he sees it as like actually good news is that we can live on earth and bring what Jesus started here by loving people, being good at what we do.
(45:07):
You know, if you're a therapist, being really good at being a therapist, if you're a carpenter, being really good at being a carpenter, building things for people and communities, that I think is what actually bringing heaven to earth is supposed to be.
And I think the Christian Nationalist sees that idea and they go, oh yeah, so controlling these seven things, and that's just a distortion.
(45:28):
And that's based on works and controlling other people instead of just loving people the way Jesus loved people and empowering people to have whatever beliefs they want.
And I believe this, but you don't have to believe, but I believe to be safe here.
That's more like Jesus, in my opinion, that whatever this controlling and winning of a culture or is, you know.
(45:54):
Yeah, and you talked about works and laws based in your notes here and what I've noticed and it's my experience that Christian nationalism is very legalistic in its way.
It uses Bible verses, but it uses those to achieve a certain goal, whereas Jesus' teachings, if we're actually following that, is very relational in nature.
And there's just a very distinct difference in how that kind of operates and what Jesus is teaching versus what we're seeing being pushed by Christian nationalism.
(46:24):
I had a quote actually based on some of your notes here.
So this is within a book called Church Called Tove, a great book, another one I would recommend reading.
But it says, a system or culture that perpetuates abuse will question the motives of those who ask questions. Make the discussion of problems the problem.
Condemn those who condemn. Silence those who break silence and descend upon those who dissent.
(46:49):
And I feel like even some of the rhetoric with some of the politicians, even that have been appointed by Trump, we have seen some of that.
Even before this last election cycle, we have seen it with a lot of people within the Christian nationalist circles that try to demonize and other people and silence people by kind of making them the enemy.
(47:10):
And as we heard, you know, has been said, the enemy within. I think it was might have been Trump that said that.
I quote I had saved from a guy I follow on Instagram, Zachary Hilton, who said Christian nationalism has hijacked both faith and American identity.
It made Christianity about power instead of love, and it made patriotism about exclusion rather than liberty and justice.
(47:33):
It's so true. It's just it's definitely hijacked all the faith.
Jesus isn't afraid of our questions. And Jesus isn't afraid of people that don't look or act like me.
And I think that's that needs to be said more. We talked about like when we first talked about how you like switch foot.
And I think that's something John Foreman talks about all the time is like, can have your doubts because God's not scared of those like, you know, John Foreman is a good guy.
(48:01):
He's a good hippie. He's a good hippie. Yeah, that's a good way of putting it.
Yeah, I mean, like what you were saying, I mean, religious freedom is only religious freedom if it benefits people that are that are both claiming it.
It's part of that hijacking. It's part of that patriotism exclusion within the justice system.
So, yeah, yeah. And like I talked to my my bandmate again and she was like, people forget that the story we tell ourselves for how we were founded is that people were were fleeing from the British,
(48:33):
the British persecution of their beliefs, the Puritans or whatever.
I like if that's part of the founding, obviously, now the people that moved here from England were good.
But like, if that's part of the founding, why would we perpetuate that?
You know, you have to be the Church of like the Church of England, otherwise you're not really following God.
That's basically what they we teach in school is what they were fleeing.
(48:57):
And that's why they came to a different world. So, so I think we should play another clip, actually.
For the foundation, there's the clip debate 1877 teams on the nation.
Yeah, Kenton talks about the founding of the nation and how it's based on Christian values and everything.
So I want to play that. I have a few thoughts on that. I'm sure you do, too.
(49:19):
Kind of talk about that a little bit.
When you look at the founding of the of the nation, what do you see there?
So I would argue or I would claim that at the founding of this nation, we were founded as a Christian nation,
but that we have since shedded that label that that we have abandoned God.
(49:40):
And I would argue that we're under his judgment now. So we were a Christian nation.
We are no longer. I would say that every or almost every founder of this nation subscribed to Christian beliefs.
King George even called the American Revolution one time the Presbyterian Revolution.
So there is a fundamental Christian founding in this nation because the ones who founded it operated on a fundamentally Christian worldview.
(50:08):
All right. Yeah. So short clip. But did you want to jump into it or you want me to kind of.
Oh, you can go.
All right. So I'll start with a quote by Eric McDaniel. He's an associate professor of government at the University of Texas.
He says the idea of Christian nationhood fills Americans needs for an origin story, a belief that we've come here for something special and that we're here for God's work,
(50:31):
which is a pretty big slap in the face that the idea that this nation was founded on Christian principles, I believe is laughable.
I'm sure some of the founding fathers may have held Christian views and practices in their private lives.
But when it came down to the writings of the founding fathers documents, there was a unanimous decision to segregate church from state to say otherwise is to to devisate history and furthers Christian nationalistic apologetics.
(50:57):
And I'm sure a lot of my listeners are, you know, would like to correct me on a lot of the founding fathers principles and writings and whatnot.
I wouldn't say I'm a huge scholar by any means on all this.
I have done some research over the years and talked with people about some of the stuff.
So I have my own ideas and whatnot. But I would welcome anybody to DM me or email me.
(51:22):
And I would love to hear you. But to further on, I'll kind of go into some of this.
So Thomas Paine, who influenced the American Revolution with his pamphlet Common Sense, insisted that every national church or religion accuses the others of unbelief.
For my own part, I just believe them all. So both Benjamin Franklin, who is a known deist, and Thomas Jefferson agreed in that sentiment.
(51:45):
Jefferson denied that Jesus was a member of the Godhead.
And Franklin decried Christian church services for promoting church membership instead of trying to make us good citizens.
He also criticized all religions for making orthodoxy more regarded than virtue.
He insisted that man be judged not for what we thought, but what we did, that we did good to our fellow preacher.
(52:07):
Most of the founding fathers shared his sentiment with this.
Even John Adams, a devout churchgoing congregationalist, signed the 1796 Treaty of Tripoli that the United States is not in any sense a Christian nation.
And the 23 present members in the U.S. Senate ratified the document unanimously.
All three of the nation's founding documents, the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation, and the United States Constitution, carefully avoid all mention of Christianity or Christ.
(52:37):
Article 6 of the Constitution even states that there is no religious test should ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.
Only the Declaration of Independence mentions God in a single ambiguous reference with which deists, rather than practicing Christians, called them the laws of nature and nature's God, which is far from a very Christian view of who God is.
(53:04):
So that's my little blah on the founding of this nation as a Christian nation.
So I don't know if you have any thoughts on that at all.
Yeah, I mean, I've heard the stories of like Thomas Jefferson cutting up the Bible and taking up parts he didn't like.
You know, most of the founding fathers own slaves.
(53:25):
There was that clip. I think we could play that at some point.
Yeah. If you want to play right now, even.
Yeah. Was it called, let's see, let's go, the preacher one?
Yes, the preacher. That was the one you sent me.
Yeah, awesome.
That's why I have such deep issue with this Christian nationalist movement, saying that America ought to be a Christian nation.
(53:54):
Who's Christianity? Do you want the Christianity of the colonizers who use Christianity to justify the eradication of indigenous people?
Do you want the Christianity of misogynists who even now in Project 25 are trying to roll back the 19th Amendment and remove women from the right to vote?
Or maybe you want the slave trader Christianity that use Christianity to justify the enslavement and the killing of millions of Africans and declared slaves obey your master?
(54:27):
Or maybe you like the Christianity of Bull Connor, a deacon in his church in Alabama, taught Sunday school on Sunday, but on Monday released police dogs on peaceful protesters who are fighting for their right to vote.
Or maybe you want the Christianity of Westboro Baptist Church that says God hates queer folk.
(54:48):
Or maybe you want the Christianity of the Southern Baptist Convention, which says that Black Lives Matter is a heresy.
Or maybe you want the Christianity of the National Baptist Convention that still won't allow women to stand and preach.
What Christianity do you want to reign over this land?
Well, thanks for sharing that.
(55:10):
I do recall Tim Whitaker bringing this up.
He talks about, you know, what time in history was this good time that we need to go back to?
And what the preacher was talking about, Tim even brings it up. He says, you know, do we go back to where slaves were being held?
Do we go back to Jim Crow laws? Do we go back to all these atrocious things that have happened in American history?
(55:33):
And Kenton, he comes back and he says, it's funny that you bring up the worst parts of history.
How are we not supposed to bring up the worst parts of history?
It's this thing that I've seen play out over and over again where it's like they gloss over the nasty parts of history to talk about why they think it's good.
(55:58):
They purposefully try to navigate the conversation around a full picture as opposed to these things that have happened.
We have received that big name Christian people within history have been advocates for these big things.
People that influence the common folk, people that influence the general population of America, have been advocates for these things like slavery for the Jim Crow laws.
(56:24):
And it's almost like they don't want to talk about what's uncomfortable.
They don't want to address the things that don't line up with their Christian worldview.
It's like they want to only focus on the things that further an agenda.
And I don't know if you have any thoughts on that. I'm sure you do.
I think it's hard to hit close up. I don't know who said that first.
(56:49):
But if you know people in these groups, if you know somebody who follows the Black Lives Matter movement,
if you know somebody who, you know, in any of these groups, you're not going to have this like fear based response to it.
Like this threatens you when it's just a person existing. And I think that that fear based reactionary kind of hatred that has been like boiling up over the years in different forms.
(57:19):
And we've grown, you know, women have the right to vote now.
You know, we got past the Jim Crow laws. But like so I do think like our country does get better over time, but not without a fight and not without people, you know, standing up for that.
And I was talking to my spouse about this. He was like, where are the times of Christianity was the best?
He's like Mother Teresa, like helping kids, you know, like starting an orphanage.
(57:45):
I thought of like, you know, like Corrie Ten Boom, like hiding Jewish people in her house in the Netherlands during that Nazi Germany's occupation of the Netherlands.
You know, when was Christianity the worst? And then we can name them. Right. We know.
And if we ignore those times when we were the worst, we will strive to be like Harriet Tubman saving people in the underground railroad.
(58:08):
Like that that's when we read our best, you know. And so it is important to talk about the good times and the bad times.
So, yeah, can say you're only focusing on the bad. We don't want to go back to it.
You know, we should we should learn from it as all I guess is the more.
That's it for today's episode of Grub and Grace.
I really hope you enjoyed our discussion with Sarah about if Christian nationalism is good for society.
(58:31):
Unfortunately, due to the length of the recording, I had to split it up into two episodes.
So come back next week and I'll have that up for you.
I just want to give another big thank you to Sarah for joining me on this episode.
See you guys in the next episode.
And as always, stay curious, keep an open mind and celebrate the traditions that bring us all together.
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