March 10, 2026 • 51 mins
Customer support comes with a real mental and emotional load.
In this episode, Priscilla sits down with Melody Wilding, licensed therapist, executive coach, and host of the Psychology at Work podcast, to talk about how support professionals can use psychology to protect their energy, communicate with confidence, and build healthier habits without emotionally detaching from customers.
We dig into why setting boundaries often fails in the moment and why setting clear expectations works better, how to spot boundary erosion, and what the “happy to help” mindset can turn into when it becomes overfunctioning.
Melody also shares practical tools for handling frustrated customers without taking it personally and using the "broken record" technique when you need to stand your ground.
Plus: how remote work has changed rumination and workplace paranoia, why sensitivity can be a competitive advantage in support, and simple reset rituals you can use between tickets so one difficult interaction doesn’t spill into the next.
This conversation is for support pros who want to stay empathetic and protected, and for leaders who want to build a culture where sustainable support is the standard.
Where to find Melody:
Melody’s website: melodywilding.com
Podcast: Psychology at Work
We want to hear from you! Share your support stories and questions with us at happytohelp@buzzsprout.com!
To learn more about Buzzsprout visit Buzzsprout.com.
Thanks for listening!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Priscilla (00:00):
Welcome to Happy to Help, a podcast about customer
support from the people ofBuzzsprout.
I'm your host, PriscillaBrooke.
Today we're discussingpsychology at work, specifically
psychology and customersupport.
We'll talk about what it lookslike to build healthy
boundaries, how to navigatecustomer emotions, and explore
strategies rooted in psychologythat will make our lives as
customer support professionalseasier and more enjoyable.
(00:23):
Thanks for joining us.
Let's get into it.
So I'm really excited abouttoday's episode.
A couple of years ago, when wewere planning this podcast, one
of the episodes that I wanted todo was this idea of using
psychology to protect us and thework we're doing in customer
support because there's such amental load that comes with
(00:45):
working with customers everyday.
And now that we've beenrecording episodes, I've really
been looking for the rightperson to come on the show and
talk with us about that.
And I knew I had to findsomeone who was truly an expert
in that field because it's notsomething that I have a lot of
experience in.
And so joining us today isMelody Wilding.
(01:06):
Melody is an award-winningexecutive coach, human behavior
professor, and licensedtherapist.
She is the host of thePsychology at Work podcast and
is the author of Managing Up,How to Get What You Need from
the People in Charge and TrustYourself, Stop Overthinking, and
Channel Your Emotions forSuccess at Well.
For more than a decade, Melodyhas helped smart, thoughtful,
(01:29):
top performers at the world'smost successful companies get
the recognition, respect, andpay they deserve by harnessing
the power of psychology.
And today, she's going to showus how to use psychology to
impact how we approach customersupport by creating healthy
habits.
Thanks for taking the time tobe here, Melody.
I'm really excited.
Couldn't be more thrilled to bewith you.
(01:50):
Thank you so much.
Yes.
When I came across your podcasta couple of weeks ago, I felt
like there were so many episodesin there that were directly
applicable to what I know Iexperience at work and in
customer support and the peopleon my team experience.
And so it just felt like aperfect fit to have you on the
show.
So I really can't wait to getinto this conversation.
(02:11):
But before we do, we alwayskick off our episodes with a
highlight of someone in ourlives who have made our day
better.
And so I wanted to know who hasmade your day recently.
I'm going to cheat a little andpick two people because they
both use the same strategy withme and I love it.
Melody (02:27):
There's no rules.
So you can deal for it.
Yes.
Thank you.
Thank you.
So uh I have two friends,Lorraine Lee and Terry Trust
PCO.
And why they have made my dayrecently is they send me voice
notes, whether it's text or Ivox with Terry.
And it just always makes my dayto be able to hear their voice
because all day we're justscrolling through our feeds and
(02:50):
you feel like you're catching upwith people and you're
connected with people.
But there's just somethingdifferent about being able to
just quickly chat in that way,that uh a voxer message or a
voice note.
I've even had colleagues sendme uh voice DMs via LinkedIn.
And I just love that.
I just feel so instantly moreconnected to them.
(03:11):
So that always makes my day.
Priscilla (03:13):
I love that.
That's such a good example.
Yeah.
And it is like the power of ourvoices and actually hearing
each other.
What you said is so right.
We spend a lot of time onsocial media or just in this
digital world, and we feelconnected to our friends or the
people we work with, but youdon't realize how disconnected
you are until you actually havea conversation or hear their
(03:35):
voice.
And then it just takes it to awhole nother level and you have
the inflection that helps youunderstand where they're coming
from.
And there's just thecommunication is so much
stronger when you're able tohear someone's voice.
During COVID, there was an appcalled Marco Polo.
I don't know if either of youare familiar with it.
Jordan (03:53):
Yes, I forgot about it.
Priscilla (03:55):
I lived on Marco Polo with like four or five of my
friends, and we would talk allday, just continuous
conversations.
And I remember thinking it wassuch a cool way to stay
connected with them when wecould just text, but something
about sending those videos backand forth and hearing their
voices really helped a timewhere we were all very
disconnected, feel much moreconnected.
(04:17):
So that's a great answer.
I love it.
So, you know, like I said, I'mreally excited about this
episode.
I think understandingpsychology and how we
communicate with each other isso fascinating.
And like how we can use thesetools and the science that comes
along with, you know,psychology is a science.
And so using that is justreally incredible.
(04:38):
I think it's something we canharness and that will just make
our lives better, which is whatwe're always trying to do.
So before we get into that, canyou tell me a little bit,
Melody, about your experienceand what it is about psychology
that has you so passionate aboutthat?
Melody (04:52):
Well, let's go way, way back to, as most good stories,
that it starts in childhoodwhere I was a very perceptive
kid.
You know, people would say, Oh,you take things so seriously
and take things so personally.
You're so deep, you're so wisefor your age.
And as I grew up, I realizedthat that perceptiveness, yes,
(05:15):
it left unchecked, it can reallyget in your way and lead to a
lot of overthinking, which Ithink we'll talk about more
today.
But it has really been such agift and really led to my
fascination with people anddynamics and how do we relate to
each other and why do we changehow we show up in one
environment versus another?
(05:36):
And how do you motivate orinspire people to do something?
Or why is someone resistantversus not?
And those were always the typesof questions I was asking
myself from a young age.
I was a weird kid.
So um, all of that, that levelof sensitivity and observation
really I knew from a very youngage I wanted to study
(05:58):
psychology.
It was very obvious, you know,being the good listener in the
friend group and all that.
And so that's what I did.
Yeah, I went on, I have aresearch background, I studied
the interaction of emotions andhow our emotions color our
memory of experiences.
But through all of thatresearch, it felt very
(06:18):
disembodied from actuallyworking with people.
And so that's what led me to uhget my degree in social work,
go on to be a therapist.
And as I got deeper into that,my own geekiness is around
productivity and personal andprofessional development.
And 15 years ago, when Istarted, there was no one
(06:39):
talking about how our mental andemotional worlds show up in our
careers.
Jordan (06:45):
Yeah.
Melody (06:46):
And so that really became my sweet spot that I
entered.
And, you know, flash forward 15years, two books, working with
thousands of clients later.
It's uh it's really been a niceamalgamation of kind of my own
personality and interests withwhat people have needed.
Because at the end of the day,work is about people.
And if you have people insystems, what underlies all of
(07:10):
that is both individual and thenour kind of collective
psychology of how we'reinteracting with each other.
Priscilla (07:17):
I entered the workforce about 15 years ago.
And I remember those like firstcouple years in a corporate
setting and just that adjustmentperiod, right?
You leave college and you moveinto a corporate world and it's
like figuring out how tointeract with these people
around you that have all levelsof experience.
And then I am like also a verydeeply feeling person and live
(07:40):
in my head a lot.
And I remember struggling a lotearly on in my career because
it was this feeling of, okay,well, I have to separate these
emotions that I'm having from mywork and really trying to
figure out how to do that in ahealthy way.
And as I've grown, I feel likeI've developed some, you know,
(08:01):
tools to handle these things.
But I've what I've realized isthe emotion actually is a
benefit and it can help me in alot of ways.
And so as I've gotten older, asI've gotten more comfortable in
the, you know, in a corporatework environment, I feel like
I've gotten a little healthierwith that.
But what are some of themistakes that you see with
people in the corporate worldnow when it comes to like
(08:22):
workplace habits and psychology?
Like, what are some of thebiggest mistakes you're seeing?
Melody (08:26):
Well, it was really fun when you reached out about this
show because your name is happyto help.
Yeah.
And I think you would relate tobeing someone I would call a
sensitive striver.
A hundred percent.
Which is someone, yeah, who isa deep feeler, deep thinker,
processes everything.
It's like you have thousands ofbits of information coming in
versus the average person.
(08:47):
And you're also very driven.
You want to keep pushingyourself to succeed.
Not necessarily a lot of myclients don't want to get the
corner office.
That's not what they're after.
They just have this naturaldrive to be better than they
were yesterday.
Yeah.
So those two qualities, amazingcombination.
But again, like I said before,if we're unbalanced, can really
(09:08):
get in our way.
Yeah.
So coming back to the title ofthe show, actually, one thing I
see for us sensitive strivers iswe have a high level of
responsibility.
And often that shows up asdedication to our work, loyalty
to others.
We want to go above and beyond,volunteer, say yes.
We are happy to help to afault.
(09:29):
Yes.
And that is one of the patternsI see the most, and that can be
the most dangerous for people,is getting into this cycle of
overfunctioning, where you aretaking on more responsibility,
literally and psychologically,more responsibility in terms of
tasks on your plate, obligationsthat you have, but also the
(09:51):
mental and emotional load ofwhat you are carrying.
And when you areoverfunctioning, it can
inadvertently create thisdynamic where other people
underfunction.
Not necessarily because they'rebad people, but because if
we're always the ones swoopingin to make sure something gets
over the finish line, otherpeople don't have to step up.
(10:12):
Yes.
So it's almost like we'reenabling lower performance.
And then we get resentful aboutthat and the cycle goes round
and round.
Priscilla (10:22):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
You know, what you'redescribing is like most people I
know who work in customersupport.
Jordan (10:28):
Yeah.
Priscilla (10:29):
Because naturally the people who are really good at
this role are people who arehappy to help.
They tend to be peoplepleasers, they tend to really
enjoy that act of coming in andsupporting a customer.
The people who are really goodat that, that's like a natural
part of who they are.
And so what you just describedis 100% true, where you'll see
(10:51):
people taking on this extraweight that maybe they
shouldn't, but they don't reallyknow how to handle that.
And so one of the things Iwanted to talk about was this
idea of creating healthyboundaries so that we as support
professionals can protectourselves while still offering
that emotional help to ourcustomers, because there's so
much of this balance between,you know, our job is to help our
(11:14):
customers and to represent ourbrand and to be there for them
and to build relationships.
But then at what cost you haveto be aware of those boundaries.
And so one of the things Ithink about a lot is how do we
as support professionals buildthose boundaries without
emotionally detaching from thecustomers that we're working
with?
Melody (11:33):
Yeah.
It's a fine line.
It's a fine line, right?
Because it's it's baked intothe nature of your role.
And of course, you always wantto walk this balance of being a
team player and a servant leaderwithout driving yourself into
burnout.
Yeah.
Right.
I have an episode of my showthat I did a couple months ago
that was called the top threeboundary mistakes that people
(11:54):
make.
And one of the main points Imake in that episode is that we
want to be less focused onsetting boundaries and more
focused on setting expectations.
That may sound like semantics,but the difference is very
profound because expectationsare proactive.
It's here's our typicalresponse time, or here's the
(12:16):
channels by which you can reachus.
Let me give you an example ofthis.
So, with my team, we use acommunity platform where we host
all our programs and thingslike that.
And uh it has a DM featurewhere people could DM me or
someone from my team.
Jordan (12:31):
Yeah.
Melody (12:31):
And people would DM us questions, whether it was about
billing or even a coachingquestion, for example.
And every single time I wouldhave this psychological
rigmarole of, oh gosh, I have toget back to them, but I feel
like I'm giving this personpreferential treatment because
other people aren't DMing me.
And now I have to push back onthem and say, you know, I really
(12:54):
can't respond to messages.
Like we can't go back and forthabout this and here.
So can you redirect this?
I would go through this wholething.
And so at the beginning of theyear, I said to my team, new
policy going forward.
We are not going to be able torespond to DMs.
And we communicated that as anexpectation to our clients.
Hey, brief change.
(13:14):
If you want to get the best andthe fastest service from us,
reach out at this email sonothing gets lost.
And that's how we'll be able toserve you.
And now we have anautoresponder up.
And if a message comes in, Ihave removed the worry of having
to set a boundary and all theemotional upheaval I would go
through.
It seems like a small example,but there are countless
(13:37):
situations where we get intothis over time.
Priscilla (13:40):
I like the distinction between expectations
and boundaries becauseboundaries to me feel like more
in the moment, throwing them upand trying to figure out, okay,
right in this situation, I needto set a boundary.
And that can be hard to dobecause it can come across as
rude.
It can come across as badcustomer support if you're
trying to in the moment throw aboundary up, even though it's
(14:03):
not bad customer supportnecessarily, it can feel that
way.
Yeah.
But if you set an expectation,it's kind of like you're
preparing before you go intobattle.
You're going, okay, this is howI'm going to handle this before
I get there.
And that way everyone's on thesame page before you get into
that moment where emotions arehigh and we're trying to keep
ourselves protected.
(14:23):
So I like that distinction.
And I think a lot of customersupport professionals feel that
when it comes to like phonesupport versus email support.
And a lot of times you'll hear,especially with, you know, SaaS
products, where they don't wantto offer phone support because
that boundary is really hard toput up when you're on a phone
(14:44):
call with a customer.
So limiting it to email supportallows you the freedom to say,
okay, this is the expectationaround this.
And then occasionally I canmake an exception and make a
phone call when that's somethingI'm choosing so that I can
protect myself.
I think that's just a reallycool way to look at it, defining
it with those two differentterms.
Melody (15:05):
Yeah.
To make sure you get the bestand fastest support and nothing
falls through the cracks, that'svery intentional.
Because if we can contextualizeour boundary or our
expectation, whatever it is, inhow does this actually serve
you, person I am setting thiswith, in terms of you getting
the most accurate information orthe fastest, highest quality
(15:29):
response or support, then theperson doesn't feel as on the
defensive as, oh, you're takingsomething away from me.
It's more of this is in serviceof doing what's best for you
and your experience overall.
So I think that's importanttoo, because a lot of us,
especially sensitive strivers,will approach boundaries with a
(15:50):
lot of shame.
Jordan (15:50):
Yeah.
Melody (15:51):
To say, oh, I'm I'm so sorry.
I hate to have to do this, or Ireally don't want to disappoint
you, right?
We teach people how to treatus.
And so if you're arriving atthat and messaging it with shame
and excessive contrition,right, when it's not necessarily
warranted, the other personresponds to that.
(16:11):
But if you say, here's why thisis for your benefit, it totally
changes the energy and theother person's reaction as a
result.
Priscilla (16:18):
And it forces you to think through that when you're
setting those expectations andthe boundaries to think through
that and go, okay, why are wedoing it this way?
Why are we gonna not providethis mode of communication or
whatever it is?
You can actually sit down andthink through that, okay,
because it's actually gonna beeasier for someone to come back
to the information we're givingthem if it's written.
Yes, versus if it's in a phonecall or something like that.
(16:39):
And that way you have thatready when you're talking with
your customer about that.
And we've done that before onour end, where we've gone, okay,
why is it that we don't offerphone support?
We don't want to say we justdon't do it because we just
don't do it.
We want to have reasoningbehind that.
And some of that will beserving us to protect us, but
some of that, like youmentioned, is to serve the
(17:00):
customer.
And so being able tocommunicate that and define that
as a team is really important.
And then you can go and clarifyit with your customer in a way
that makes them feel more servedbecause you've thought about
them in that way.
So, what are some signs thatyour boundaries or those
expectations are being crossed,even if someone's like not being
rude or going through a, youknow, the wrong channel?
(17:22):
Like, how can we identify thatif we're not used to having like
firm boundaries andexpectations?
Melody (17:27):
Yeah.
The biggest emotional red flagis resentment.
And I referred to that earlier.
Yeah.
Resentment is a huge telltalesign that you have let something
go on for far too long than itshould have, right?
Or, or you have beenoverextending yourself without a
feeling of reciprocity orrecognition there.
(17:50):
And so sometimes I will haveclients do a resentment audit.
What are the areas where thatfeeling is even creeping up for
you past, let's say uh four outof 10 or higher?
Because those are areas wherewe may have to set or reset some
boundaries around, you know,whether it's your level of
(18:11):
commitment or it's the scope ofhow you're involved.
But that's a really good placeto start because resentment,
it's simmering.
Sometimes you do get this flashof just indignation when you
see an email hit your inbox orsomeone's name come across your
Slacker teams.
But other times it's just thiskind of anger that's weighing
(18:34):
you down.
So that's what I would say isthe big one that most people
overlook.
There's a lot of goodinformation in that emotional
data.
Priscilla (18:42):
I feel that a lot.
And I think for a long time, Ithought the solution to that was
that I just needed to figureout a way to let it go.
And I think to an extent, thereis part of that.
But what I'm learning as I growand, you know, as an adult is
that those boundaries really aregonna help to ease that and to
remove some of that resentment.
(19:03):
And so I think that's a veryimportant thing to be on the
lookout for because I think alot of people don't notice that
as it's simmering until it hitsa point where it's just it's so
much.
And then it's hard to moveforward from that.
Melody (19:15):
Yeah.
And a more uh tactical one thatI see a lot, which it sounds
backwards.
A lot of the people who, whenthey first come to work with me
and my team, they'll say they'vereceived feedback around things
like they're not strategicenough or they don't know how to
prioritize.
Some of them will even be beingtold you're too valuable where
(19:39):
you are.
And that is a big red flag thatyou need boundaries because you
have made yourselfindispensable to the point where
you've made yourself unmovableor unpromotable.
And it's a very tricky, right?
This is that happy to helpmentality.
Let me step in.
But then you can paint yourselfinto a corner of no one else
(20:01):
can do your role, or there's nota lot of mobility for you to
take on other projects becauseyou have all the knowledge in
your head, right?
You haven't created SOPs ortemplates that other people can
use.
So it's too expensive or it'stoo risky to let you move
somewhere else.
And the other part of thatabout not being strategic or not
(20:21):
knowing how to prioritize iswhen you are indiscriminately
saying yes to everything, thatdoesn't signal you know how to
evaluate the trade-offs or youknow how to have tough
conversations, some of thosemore mid or senior level skills
that you might need.
And so we have this equationgrowing up that, you know,
(20:43):
effort plus time, if I just workhard and bide my time,
therefore I will be successful.
And it can be a real mindswitch to realize that being
able to push back tactfully iswhat will help you get ahead
because it's the opposite of theway we've been conditioned to
(21:04):
grow in our careers.
Yeah.
Priscilla (21:05):
Yeah.
And I remember early on workingwhen I started over here at
Buzzprout, someone sayingsomething along the lines of,
everyone here is replaceable.
And I remember thinking, like,oh, yikes, like I don't want to
hear that.
Like we're all replaceable.
Like I could be fired at anymoment.
Is that what you mean?
But what they meant was youactually get the freedom to
leave and not think about work.
(21:27):
We don't want you to be in amindset where you are
irreplaceable, so you can'tmove.
Jordan (21:31):
Yeah.
Priscilla (21:31):
So just like what you were saying, where you can't
move up because you'reirreplaceable where you are, or
you can't take a vacationbecause no one can do your job
the way you can do your job.
And so having that mindset issomething that I know I used to
cling to, like I'm irreplaceablein this way.
But then when I started workinghere, it was like, actually,
no, you are replaceable.
But where you're notreplaceable is at home with your
(21:53):
family.
Where you're not replaceableare these other places.
But at work, you should be ableto be replaceable.
You Want to be so that you canmove on to the next thing or
move up, or there's the phraseyou can't steal second if you're
standing on first.
Yeah.
I think that that's reallyimportant.
So one of the things that youtalk about a lot is negative
(22:14):
self-talk.
I am someone who's always beenin my head.
I said that early on, but Ispend a lot of time in my head.
And sometimes it's negative,sometimes it's positive.
More often than not, it'snegative.
And what I think is interestingis working in support, you
know, you deal with alldifferent types of people all
day.
And some people are frustratedand they say things to you in
(22:35):
support that actually reinforcesthe negative self-talk that
you're trying to get out of.
Yeah.
And so, how does self-talk playinto our corporate life?
And then what advice would youhave for people who are really
struggling to get out of theirhead in that sense?
Melody (22:51):
You hit the nail on the head that the feedback or the
criticism that tends to stingthe most is the one that
confirms the worst things webelieve about ourselves, right?
Like you're not being helpfulenough.
Or I thought this was actuallya good company, right?
And you're like, oh, it justhits you like a dagger when
people say that because thoseare hitting on your
(23:13):
insecurities.
And so part of being, we'vebeen talking about being a
sensitive striver,thoughtfulness is a huge part of
this trait where it can be agigantic advantage to be able to
see different sides of asituation or have empathy for a
customer, for example.
But we can become so self-awarethat we become self-conscious,
(23:36):
right?
It goes all the way around.
Yes.
One of the tricks I talk aboutin my book, Trust Yourself, is
to give that inner critic aname.
It sounds silly, and that'sactually part of the point of
it.
Priscilla (23:48):
Yeah.
Melody (23:48):
Is to give that inner critic an identity that is
separate from you.
So when you hear that talktrack coming up, and let me just
go back to that for a second,because if that talk track is
coming up, our brain is going tofilter for everything that
confirms that, right?
Our our brain just takes amental shortcut and says, what
(24:09):
information confirms theidentity and the story I have
about myself and the world?
I'm just going to listen tothat.
And so if you think you're notgood enough or you you think
you're a difficult person,right?
You're going to scan for all ofthat to confirm that story.
Yeah.
And so if you can put a labelon that inner critic, you know,
I called mine Bozo.
(24:30):
I have That's a good one.
Yeah.
I have had clients who callthat theirs uh Miranda
Priestley, or I once had someonewho had a little Darth Vader
that he would keep on his desk,and that was like his inner
critic totem that he would beable to talk to.
Jordan (24:44):
Yeah.
Melody (24:44):
And there's psychology that shows when we can have that
psychological distance from ourthoughts where we're not fused
with them.
They're not so automatic.
We're giving ourselves justthat second of space and agency
to have awareness to say, isthis what I want to believe
right now?
Does this actually move mecloser or further away to my
(25:05):
values and my goals?
That moment of awareness helpsyou be more calm.
It helps you stay in yourprefrontal cortex where you can
uh have higher reasoning andmore self-control.
So when that person is comingat you with their own anger,
you're able to say, this is areflection of them possibly
having a bad day.
And I like to go through whatare five possible reasons this
(25:29):
person may be reacting this way,besides I suck and I'm terrible
at my job.
What are other explanations?
Maybe their boss yelled atthem, they got a flat tire this
morning.
Uh, their kid wouldn't getdressed for school, whatever it
is.
But it helps to get yourselfoff of that thought track of
just confirming the insecuritiesyou have about yourself.
Priscilla (25:51):
Yeah, I think that's such a good piece of advice.
We talk a lot about thinkingabout the fact that our
customers have their own storyand that they are bringing their
own context into anyinteraction we have with them.
And it helps us to relate withthem better.
And then when they'refrustrated, it helps us to give
them more grace in those momentswithout taking that personally
(26:12):
when they get frustrated.
So I think that taking a beatto really think through and list
out five things is a reallygood tool that you can use to
put yourself back in thatmindset of like, this is not
about me necessarily.
And I don't need to let this bea reflection of me.
The goal here is to help themget to their next step and move
(26:33):
on to the next thing.
On that same plane, you know,dealing with frustrated
customers can be reallydraining.
And in customer support,especially depending on your
customers.
I mean, we at Buzzbrout havefantastic customers, and very
rarely do we have reallyfrustrated, really mean people.
But sometimes that happens.
(26:53):
And for some companies, youhave more people that are
frustrated than others.
And so you might be dealingwith a repeat, like every email,
there's some frustration, or ifyou're in the middle of a bug
and everyone's frustrated andwriting in about that.
What is that repeated exposureto frustration or like urgency
in support?
How does that affect us,especially when we haven't
(27:15):
established those boundaries orthose expectations?
Melody (27:18):
Yeah.
Well, particularly if you'resomeone who's more on the
sensitive side of the spectrum,there's research that shows that
we have more active mirrorneurons, which are essentially
the empathy neurons.
So our brain lights up morewhen we are experiencing the
emotions of other people.
And so we're we are literallytaking in more of other people's
(27:41):
emotional reactions, especiallynegativity.
Negativity is very contagious,and that's for evolutionary
purposes.
It is helpful and protective ifpeople are more scared or on
alert or panicked because our,you know, prehistoric selves
think that's going to keep ussafe.
Priscilla (27:59):
Yeah.
Melody (28:00):
So that's why negativity spreads so much.
And it can keep you on thathigh alert fight or flight.
And the model uh we use in mybook, Trust Yourself, and in
some of my programs, we callthat vigilance, where your
vigilance becomes unbalanced tothe point where you're always
scanning for risks.
(28:20):
Are people happy with me?
Are they upset?
And you may be reading intosituations and small cues more
than you would before.
Yes.
And all of that carries home,right?
Because it's like you havethese emotional tabs open or
residue on you that you have toprocess at some time.
Priscilla (28:39):
Right.
Melody (28:40):
And so what we work with a lot of people on is trying to
create that boundary, thatdistinction between work time
and personal time.
Because if we don't, if wedon't create some of those
internal mental boundaries,there's no healthy
compartmentalization.
You are always just going to beturning over, oh, could I said
(29:00):
something differently in thatemail, or maybe I should have
responded sooner, right?
You're just constantly turningover those situations in your
head and beating yourself up, oreven being angry yourself at I
can't believe that person wassuch a jerk to me.
Like, what's wrong witheverybody today?
Right.
It just becomes this darkcloud.
Yeah.
So having some sort of atransition ritual between your
(29:22):
workday and then the rest ofyour life is extremely
important.
So you are creating that senseof closure.
Jordan (29:30):
Yeah.
Melody (29:30):
And this doesn't have to be elaborate.
You know, we have some peoplethat at the end of the day just
write down here were threemoments of strength.
I kept my cool when this whenthis client was coming at me and
sending 10 messages in a row.
Or uh I was I was able to pushthrough this project that I've
been procrastinating on forever.
So you could write down thosethree things.
(29:52):
Maybe it's for me, it's alwayssome form of changing my
clothes, lighting a candle,turning the TV on, just
something that signifies onesection of the day is over and
we're putting that aside andwe're starting the next one.
Priscilla (30:08):
Yeah.
And you saying that makes methink about where we are as far
as working remotely goes,because that was built into our
days when we would leave theoffice and drive home and have a
commute to make thattransition.
Yep.
That's where I do it.
I still go to the officebecause I like to have that
separation, but I know a lot ofpeople work from home and it is
(30:28):
a lot harder to have thatseparation.
So, how do you think that hasaffected the lack of a commute
for a lot of people?
How has that affectedpsychology and the bleeding over
between work and home life?
Melody (30:41):
Oh, huge.
Huge.
During during the pandemic, Ifound myself talking much more
about what I called work fromhome paranoia, which was just
again, just this constantheightened state of ruminating
over everything because we oftennow lack more of the cues we
had when we were in office.
You could see your boss in thehallway and get a nod and just a
(31:04):
little uh touch base that,okay, everything's okay.
We're good, right?
We're good.
But now we're we're having toread into all of those cues.
Like, why did they use a periodinstead of an exclamation
point?
Is that a bad sign?
You know, yeah.
And to your point, we don'thave those natural uh
transitions that we had before.
(31:25):
So it's just one long period oftime.
And that's why you findyourself kind of going over
things when you're at the dinnertable, for example, because we
haven't deliberately put thoseboundaries in place.
Priscilla (31:37):
Yeah.
I think that's so insightfuland so true.
I think of the things likegoing to lunch with your
coworkers from differentdepartments and spending time
with them.
And I'm sure there are peoplethat are in office that still do
that.
And that's fantastic.
But I think it used to be soregular, at least I know for me
before the pandemic, every daywe were going having lunch and
(31:57):
talking about things thatweren't work related.
And it builds theserelationships.
So then you don't ruminate asmuch on the why did they use a
period?
Why didn't they use anexclamation point?
And that's, oh, are theyfrustrated with me?
They called this meeting.
I don't know what's going on.
But when you don't have thatrelationship built, it is a lot
easier to get in your head.
And that's where things can getdangerous in my experience.
(32:20):
Yeah.
So one of the things youmentioned in this podcast, but
also in your other writing, isthat sensitivity can be a
competitive advantage.
Um, you refer to perceptivenessand emotional intelligence as
superpowers when it comes toinfluencing those who you work
with.
So, how can supportprofessionals with those
superpowers, because a lot ofthem have those superpowers?
(32:42):
Yeah, how can they use thosewhen building customer
relationships?
Melody (32:45):
Yeah, I believe this now more than ever, especially with
the rise of AI and so muchautomation.
There's just so much distancein our interactions.
And I really believe that ifyou're someone who has high
empathy, high emotionalintelligence, your ability to
understand people's pain points,desires, needs, that is
(33:07):
everything now.
That is exactly what's neededto influence people, to get
buy-in, to get them to takeaction.
So, a very simple example, weteach this in one of my
programs.
It's called Speak Like a SeniorLeader, where we're really
working with mid-level corporateprofessionals to help them
navigate the differentstakeholders.
But this certainly applies whenyou're building relationships
(33:28):
with customers too, is to usethat perceptiveness to flex your
communication style to more somatch and mirror the other
person.
So, for example, in my bookManaging Up, I talk about how
there's four primarycommunication styles.
And they're based on the factthat people can be either highly
(33:51):
dominant communicators orhighly sociable communicators.
So, do we prioritize speed,results, outcomes, assertiveness
in the way we communicate?
Do we prioritize people,relationships, connections,
stories, things like that?
And if you can recognize thatsomeone is what in my
vernacular, I would call acheerleader who is someone who
(34:13):
is both highly dominant andhighly sociable.
Those people are using wordslike vision, mission,
enthusiasm, excitement.
I would love to be able to dothis for you, right?
They're including anecdotes ofmaybe other happy customers or
stakeholders who really enjoyedthis product or this idea as
(34:36):
well.
You're going to get fasterbuy-in and agreement from that
person than if you wereprioritizing caution.
And uh, we need to take thisslowly, and maybe we should do a
pilot first.
The cheerleader is more of thelet's go.
This is exciting.
We have so much opportunityhere.
Just those little tweaks in howyou frame and present your
(35:00):
message can make such a hugedifference in how it's received
by the other person.
It's the difference betweentalking at them and getting
through to them.
Priscilla (35:10):
Yes.
And if you look at that in asupport role or in a support
experience, what that means isyou are, you know, you're
working with them, you'retalking to them as a human being
and not talking at them as likea customer.
And so there's that connectionthere and it's like mirroring
that and the energy that comesalong with it.
(35:30):
Because ultimately, withcustomer support, we are trying
to educate and we're trying tosolve their problems in that
way.
And I think that knowing how toflex that communication based
on who you're talking with isreally important.
And I like that energy thatcomes into it because I think
what separates a good customersupport experience from a great
(35:54):
customer support experience isthat personal touch and that
energy that we can bring ascustomer support professionals.
I want to transition a littlebit here to some strategies that
we can use, you know, to createthose boundaries to build these
habits that will just make ourlives easier and make us more
successful in our roles incustomer support and just in our
(36:15):
work lives in general.
Do you have any tips forprofessionals who are struggling
to separate that the customeris frustrated versus the
customer is frustrated with me?
Melody (36:26):
Yeah.
This also comes back toself-talk and putting
psychological distance betweentheir reaction and yours.
Some people find it helpful.
Some of my clients like to havea visualization of they're in a
bubble, or uh, one of mycolleagues would say she would
like paint her body in goldarmor before she would go into a
tough conversation or anegotiation.
(36:46):
And that was her reminder thatthe other person's reaction
stays with them.
It doesn't come on to me.
Some people imagine like it'sthey're a duck and it's sort of
water off their back that thisbelongs to the other person.
So if a visualization helpsyou, that's great.
Another little trick is to usephrases like this person is
(37:08):
having the feeling offrustration versus this person
is frustrated.
Yeah.
It is so small, but it's areminder that this person is
having an experience and aninterpretation of this
experience that is theirs toown.
Priscilla (37:25):
Yeah.
Melody (37:25):
And the same goes for you.
You can say, I'm having thethought that I'm a complete
failure in this role versus I'ma failure in this role.
The saying, I'm having thethought that acknowledges that
these are just words in my heador these are letters on the
screen.
They don't necessarily have tohurt me or have a deeper
(37:46):
interpretation behind them.
Priscilla (37:48):
And it gives you the ability to not define yourself
by one emotion, or define yourcustomer by one emotion or one
experience.
We are all very layered people.
We will make mistakes, butviewing it like that allows you
to say, like, I am not this oneexperience.
This one experience ishappening right now, but this is
(38:10):
not who I am, and this is notwho they are.
Jordan (38:12):
Yeah.
Priscilla (38:13):
I know for myself that that can be really hard to
separate.
But once you figure out how toseparate it and to remind
yourself that like the negativeself-talk is not necessarily the
reality, once you can separatethat, it makes life way easier
and it just makes things waymore enjoyable.
One of the things that I see alot of customer support
(38:35):
professionals run into is thisfeeling of a customer pushing
back on the facts and then youhaving to step into this role,
be a little more assertive thanmaybe you would normally be,
stand in your confidence alittle bit more than maybe you
would need to be because youhave this pushback from a
customer who's saying, well,actually, that's not true when
(38:55):
the reality is it is true.
So, what are one or twopractical tools that support
professionals can use to feelconfident in those difficult
customer-facing situations wherethey have to be a little more
assertive and that might feeluncomfortable?
Melody (39:11):
Two things.
Number one, where possible, tryto stay forward-looking and
solution focused.
So you can say, I understand.
And my goal for thisconversation now is to figure
out how we resolve this for you.
So I think a lot of us go backthere and try to relitigate what
has happened, but instead justrecognize it and try to move
(39:34):
forward and redirect or refocusthe conversation to what you can
do now.
Yeah.
So that's one thing.
Number two is there are certainsituations where you may want
to stand your ground.
And in those uh circumstances,using what's called the broken
record technique can be veryhelpful.
That's where you repeat aphrase just in a level tone
(39:58):
again and again.
And you may want to rephraseit.
So you're not just saying thesame thing, but you can say, you
know, as I mentioned, this wasour policy that was stated at
checkout, for example.
You may say, I understand.
However, this was what youagreed to when you checked out,
right?
And you just keep coming backto one statement, not escalating
your voice, especially if thisis over the phone or voice, but
(40:22):
just coming back to that,reiterating it.
Sometimes that can take the airout of a person's reaction
because you're not caving totheir pressure tactics.
Priscilla (40:32):
Which can be really hard, especially when you're in
a either face-to-face or uhvoice-to-voice situation.
It can be really hard,especially when you're the kind
of person that is happy to helpand wants this.
And then you're in a momentwhere now you have to be
assertive and you have to standwith like your back and like,
you know, stay firm on somethingbecause there's no way around
it.
(40:52):
We find that sometimes passingthe voice to another person can
help too.
If you're getting stuck in thatloop and there also, you know,
being a broken record on theother side, you go, okay, I'm
gonna have to get someone elsein here and see if that can help
us get out of this.
Like sometimes that's astrategy that we use.
But honestly, one of the thingsthat is so hard about customer
(41:14):
support is that you finish oneof those conversations and you
start another one.
And it might be that the nextone is completely different
tonally, but it might be thatit's another frustrated person.
You just never know.
And carrying that feeling fromperson to person can be really
dangerous because then you mighttreat one customer a certain
way because the person you justworked with was rude and now
(41:37):
you're feeling that still.
And we talked about findingways to reset at the end of a
workday so that you can go andbe in your home life in a
healthy environment.
But what about kind ofswitching email to email?
Like, do you have any tips orstrategies for resetting within
each email in a way that isreally meaningful and allows you
to focus on the next email orinto the next person?
Melody (41:59):
Two things come to mind.
First is if you can giveyourself a break or if you can
break up so you're not justgoing directly into that next
email.
You get up from your desk, yougo make a cup of coffee or
whatever, take a lap around yourhouse, just so you have some
shift out of that emotion.
Because I always like to say,you can't get over an emotion,
(42:20):
you have to go through it.
And that stress, it's gonnastay in your body.
You have to metabolize itsomehow.
And I understand you can't stopyour day and meditate for 20
minutes.
Most of us can't do that.
Yeah, but you can stand up andmaybe just like shake your
shoulders and just get it out,or again, go refill your glass
of water and come back and letthat be your physical reset for
(42:43):
it.
So you can do that.
And I find the principle ofassuming best intent saves me
more times than not.
If I just open every email,even after I've had a tough
interaction, if I just go intothe next one, assuming best
intent, that people are doingthe best they can, but the
resources they have that helpssave me from carrying over that
(43:07):
projection from one interactioninto the next.
Jordan (43:10):
That is becoming our catchphrase on this podcast,
assuming you've been.
Priscilla (43:14):
I feel like it's my catchphrase for my life.
Yes.
Is assume positive intent.
I remember probably 10 yearsago, a friend of mine saying it
to me, and it was the first timeI'd ever heard it.
And this was not a worksituation, but she said, like,
we just have to assume positiveintent.
And it just kind of like hitme, and I was like, wait, I
should be living my whole lifeassuming positive intent.
(43:35):
Yes, yeah, until someone provesto me that the intent is not
positive.
But until then, I'm gonnaassume it.
And I really think it it makesyour life more enjoyable.
It sure is.
Like it's a it's a benefit foryou if you're assuming positive
intent from the people aroundyou.
It makes your life better.
So it's kind of selfish, but itreally is something I think
about all the time.
Yeah.
So one of the things that istalked about a lot in this is
(43:59):
the idea.
That leadership is modeling alot of these healthy habits,
right?
With customer supportprofessionals, a lot of times it
gets hard and your leader iswho you are.
I mean, honestly, customersupport, but any workplace, your
leaders who you're looking forto model those kind of
behaviors.
So I want to talk about some ofthese habits from the top down
(44:22):
and how we as leaders can helpequip the people on our team
with these strategies and thenhow we can model it.
So, what do you think, youknow, leaders can do to help
normalize boundaries andemotional protection for the
people that are working maybe inthese support roles?
Melody (44:39):
Oh, so many things come to mind.
First of all, I have lovedseeing more leaders add
descriptive text to theirsign-offs on email around these
are my response times, these aremy working hours.
I think that is wonderful.
As you were saying, just givingpeople um permission, you have
to go first, right?
(45:00):
For other people to see this isacceptable.
That's one thing.
The other thing that comes tomind that I end up doing with a
lot of my clients is settingteam values, which sounds very
lame, but stay with me.
Setting team values, but usingthose as ways for how we behave
(45:20):
and we show up as a team.
So it's one thing to say wevalue balance or we value
transparency or creativity orcompassion, whatever it is.
But what does that look like inaction?
Right.
I just had a leader go throughthis who inherited a team of
communication experts andthey've received some feedback
(45:42):
that a number of deliverableshave been off base and their
highest stakeholders have notbeen satisfied.
And so she has said, okay,well, I have to get on top of
this somehow.
She had a team retreat, theywent through a values exercise,
and one of the values she putforth was attention to detail.
And it's not just, okay, we'regoing to have attention to
detail.
(46:02):
That means different things todifferent people.
Jordan (46:04):
Yeah.
Melody (46:04):
And so she said, what that means is in terms of how we
operate, we do X, we do Y, wedo Z.
Does that sound doable toeveryone?
Is everyone in agreement thatwe're all we're all behind this?
Yes.
Now that gives her something tocome back to in one-on-ones in
team all hands, for example, tosay, here's how we're living up
(46:26):
to this, here's how we're not asclose to it.
And everyone has a sharedunderstanding, buy-in language
around that.
So that's what I would say.
If you have a team norm ofbalance, for example, well, what
does that mean?
Maybe that means that if youhave to head out because your
kid is a soccer game or you havea family emergency, you uh
(46:47):
check in with the rest of theteam and you let people know
when you're going to get back tothem about the things you owed
them.
Yeah.
Right.
It's that uh specific and thatbehavioral.
That's really important.
Priscilla (46:58):
Yeah.
One thing I love is when youhave those values set and then
you go to shout out someone onyour team, linking that directly
back to a value.
Yes.
And saying this thing that theydid really well, you could just
say, hey, great job today.
You did a great job.
But if you go, hey, great jobin this moment, because this
showed this value that we allare working toward.
(47:19):
Yeah.
It connects it back.
That positive reinforcementshows everyone on the team what
it looks like to be detailoriented or to have compassion
or to whatever, to balancethings well, whatever it is that
the value is you'rereinforcing.
So that's something that Idon't do as often as I probably
should, but I really love thatlike connection and making that
(47:41):
really obvious and talking aboutyour values a lot with the
people on your team.
Jordan (47:46):
I think that's really important too, especially if you
are a remote worker, becausethere's so much asynchronous
communication that you reallydon't get a lot of the, I don't
know what the word for it is,like subcontext of what things
are implied because it's justthrough this like written
communication or, you know,maybe like a meeting every two
weeks or something like that.
And so, yeah, getting thosekind of context clues for what
(48:09):
our values actually truly meanand how they are put into action
is a huge benefit to remoteworkers.
Yeah.
Priscilla (48:16):
So as we kind of wrap this up, what advice would you
have for our listeners who areresonating with this, but they
really don't know where to startwhen it comes to having this
play out in their day-to-daylife?
Melody (48:30):
Well, I go back to that idea of the resentment audit,
looking for those areas wherethat emotion is really flaring
up to you.
But I'll add one more tip,which is if you are someone who
struggles to set boundaries,start with something I call the
trade-off approach, which issetting a boundary and saying we
can do X or we can do Y, whichwould you prefer we deprioritize
(48:55):
or we slow down on?
It's a great way instead ofjust saying, no, we can't do
that.
I can't believe you're addingyet another thing to our plate.
Or if a customer comes to youand is asking for a refund and a
discount on their next product,you can say we can do X or we
can do Y.
Which would you prefer?
Right.
So giving people those binaryoptions can be a nice way to
(49:15):
ease into, ease into uh settingthose limits.
I love that.
Priscilla (49:19):
Yeah, that's a really good tip.
What is one thing you wish moreleaders understood about their
role in the health of theirteam?
We'll end on that.
Melody (49:29):
Yeah, that the signal comes from the top, right?
And everything trickles downfrom what you do.
People are looking at you asthe example.
They are watching the nonverbaland the verbal steps that you
take.
And what is most telling forpeople is when you say one thing
and you do another, right?
That that is the most telling.
(49:50):
And so uh, if you want a teamthat is sustainable and people
not burning out, you have to bethe one going first.
Yeah.
Priscilla (49:59):
That's the root of it, right there is that you have
to model the behavior you want.
Jordan (50:03):
Yeah.
Priscilla (50:04):
And we're all trying to find ways to avoid burnout.
And I think what you bring tothe table with this angle of how
psychology plays into it is soimportant to know.
Thank you so much for coming onand sharing all of this with
us.
I feel like I have this toolbelt now of different things I
can do to be better in my job.
(50:25):
Yeah.
And I think that that's reallycool.
For anyone who's listening whois not familiar with you, how
can they reach out to you, learnmore about you, get your books?
Melody (50:34):
Yes, melodywilding.com is the best place to connect
with me.
And as you were mentioning, Ialso have a podcast that is
hosted on Buzzsprout.
So that is called Psychology atWork.
I would love for you tosubscribe.
We're publishing episodes andinterviews every single week.
So that is also a great area tobinge.
Yes.
Priscilla (50:52):
Yeah, and I highly recommend it.
I have been listening to a lotof episodes over the last couple
of weeks, and they are really,really incredible.
They're very similar to this,right?
Where you're getting a lot ofreally good practical advice
with how to handle difficultsituations at work.
And for people that are in ouremotional world, it can be
(51:14):
really, really, reallybeneficial to have these tools
in your tool belt.
So I highly recommend thepodcast.
And thank you again so much forcoming on the show today.
Thank you for having me.
If you have a question or atopic that you would like us to
cover in a future episode, youcan shoot us a text using the
send us a text link in theepisode description.
As always, if you like thisepisode, please share it with
(51:37):
someone who works in customersupport or leave a review on
Apple Podcasts.
Thank you again to MelodyWilding for joining us on
today's episode.
Thank you for listening.
Now go and make someone's day.
Welcome to Happy to Help, a podcast about customer
support from the people ofBuzzsprout.
I'm your host, PriscillaBrooke.
Today we're discussingpsychology at work, specifically
psychology and customersupport.
We'll talk about what it lookslike to build healthy
boundaries, how to navigatecustomer emotions, and explore
strategies rooted in psychologythat will make our lives as
customer support professionalseasier and more enjoyable.
(00:23):
Thanks for joining us.
Let's get into it.
So I'm really excited abouttoday's episode.
A couple of years ago, when wewere planning this podcast, one
of the episodes that I wanted todo was this idea of using
psychology to protect us and thework we're doing in customer
support because there's such amental load that comes with
(00:45):
working with customers everyday.
And now that we've beenrecording episodes, I've really
been looking for the rightperson to come on the show and
talk with us about that.
And I knew I had to findsomeone who was truly an expert
in that field because it's notsomething that I have a lot of
experience in.
And so joining us today isMelody Wilding.
(01:06):
Melody is an award-winningexecutive coach, human behavior
professor, and licensedtherapist.
She is the host of thePsychology at Work podcast and
is the author of Managing Up,How to Get What You Need from
the People in Charge and TrustYourself, Stop Overthinking, and
Channel Your Emotions forSuccess at Well.
For more than a decade, Melodyhas helped smart, thoughtful,
(01:29):
top performers at the world'smost successful companies get
the recognition, respect, andpay they deserve by harnessing
the power of psychology.
And today, she's going to showus how to use psychology to
impact how we approach customersupport by creating healthy
habits.
Thanks for taking the time tobe here, Melody.
I'm really excited.
Couldn't be more thrilled to bewith you.
(01:50):
Thank you so much.
Yes.
When I came across your podcasta couple of weeks ago, I felt
like there were so many episodesin there that were directly
applicable to what I know Iexperience at work and in
customer support and the peopleon my team experience.
And so it just felt like aperfect fit to have you on the
show.
So I really can't wait to getinto this conversation.
(02:11):
But before we do, we alwayskick off our episodes with a
highlight of someone in ourlives who have made our day
better.
And so I wanted to know who hasmade your day recently.
I'm going to cheat a little andpick two people because they
both use the same strategy withme and I love it.
Melody (02:27):
There's no rules.
So you can deal for it.
Yes.
Thank you.
Thank you.
So uh I have two friends,Lorraine Lee and Terry Trust
PCO.
And why they have made my dayrecently is they send me voice
notes, whether it's text or Ivox with Terry.
And it just always makes my dayto be able to hear their voice
because all day we're justscrolling through our feeds and
(02:50):
you feel like you're catching upwith people and you're
connected with people.
But there's just somethingdifferent about being able to
just quickly chat in that way,that uh a voxer message or a
voice note.
I've even had colleagues sendme uh voice DMs via LinkedIn.
And I just love that.
I just feel so instantly moreconnected to them.
(03:11):
So that always makes my day.
Priscilla (03:13):
I love that.
That's such a good example.
Yeah.
And it is like the power of ourvoices and actually hearing
each other.
What you said is so right.
We spend a lot of time onsocial media or just in this
digital world, and we feelconnected to our friends or the
people we work with, but youdon't realize how disconnected
you are until you actually havea conversation or hear their
(03:35):
voice.
And then it just takes it to awhole nother level and you have
the inflection that helps youunderstand where they're coming
from.
And there's just thecommunication is so much
stronger when you're able tohear someone's voice.
During COVID, there was an appcalled Marco Polo.
I don't know if either of youare familiar with it.
Jordan (03:53):
Yes, I forgot about it.
Priscilla (03:55):
I lived on Marco Polo with like four or five of my
friends, and we would talk allday, just continuous
conversations.
And I remember thinking it wassuch a cool way to stay
connected with them when wecould just text, but something
about sending those videos backand forth and hearing their
voices really helped a timewhere we were all very
disconnected, feel much moreconnected.
(04:17):
So that's a great answer.
I love it.
So, you know, like I said, I'mreally excited about this
episode.
I think understandingpsychology and how we
communicate with each other isso fascinating.
And like how we can use thesetools and the science that comes
along with, you know,psychology is a science.
And so using that is justreally incredible.
(04:38):
I think it's something we canharness and that will just make
our lives better, which is whatwe're always trying to do.
So before we get into that, canyou tell me a little bit,
Melody, about your experienceand what it is about psychology
that has you so passionate aboutthat?
Melody (04:52):
Well, let's go way, way back to, as most good stories,
that it starts in childhoodwhere I was a very perceptive
kid.
You know, people would say, Oh,you take things so seriously
and take things so personally.
You're so deep, you're so wisefor your age.
And as I grew up, I realizedthat that perceptiveness, yes,
(05:15):
it left unchecked, it can reallyget in your way and lead to a
lot of overthinking, which Ithink we'll talk about more
today.
But it has really been such agift and really led to my
fascination with people anddynamics and how do we relate to
each other and why do we changehow we show up in one
environment versus another?
(05:36):
And how do you motivate orinspire people to do something?
Or why is someone resistantversus not?
And those were always the typesof questions I was asking
myself from a young age.
I was a weird kid.
So um, all of that, that levelof sensitivity and observation
really I knew from a very youngage I wanted to study
(05:58):
psychology.
It was very obvious, you know,being the good listener in the
friend group and all that.
And so that's what I did.
Yeah, I went on, I have aresearch background, I studied
the interaction of emotions andhow our emotions color our
memory of experiences.
But through all of thatresearch, it felt very
(06:18):
disembodied from actuallyworking with people.
And so that's what led me to uhget my degree in social work,
go on to be a therapist.
And as I got deeper into that,my own geekiness is around
productivity and personal andprofessional development.
And 15 years ago, when Istarted, there was no one
(06:39):
talking about how our mental andemotional worlds show up in our
careers.
Jordan (06:45):
Yeah.
Melody (06:46):
And so that really became my sweet spot that I
entered.
And, you know, flash forward 15years, two books, working with
thousands of clients later.
It's uh it's really been a niceamalgamation of kind of my own
personality and interests withwhat people have needed.
Because at the end of the day,work is about people.
And if you have people insystems, what underlies all of
(07:10):
that is both individual and thenour kind of collective
psychology of how we'reinteracting with each other.
Priscilla (07:17):
I entered the workforce about 15 years ago.
And I remember those like firstcouple years in a corporate
setting and just that adjustmentperiod, right?
You leave college and you moveinto a corporate world and it's
like figuring out how tointeract with these people
around you that have all levelsof experience.
And then I am like also a verydeeply feeling person and live
(07:40):
in my head a lot.
And I remember struggling a lotearly on in my career because
it was this feeling of, okay,well, I have to separate these
emotions that I'm having from mywork and really trying to
figure out how to do that in ahealthy way.
And as I've grown, I feel likeI've developed some, you know,
(08:01):
tools to handle these things.
But I've what I've realized isthe emotion actually is a
benefit and it can help me in alot of ways.
And so as I've gotten older, asI've gotten more comfortable in
the, you know, in a corporatework environment, I feel like
I've gotten a little healthierwith that.
But what are some of themistakes that you see with
people in the corporate worldnow when it comes to like
(08:22):
workplace habits and psychology?
Like, what are some of thebiggest mistakes you're seeing?
Melody (08:26):
Well, it was really fun when you reached out about this
show because your name is happyto help.
Yeah.
And I think you would relate tobeing someone I would call a
sensitive striver.
A hundred percent.
Which is someone, yeah, who isa deep feeler, deep thinker,
processes everything.
It's like you have thousands ofbits of information coming in
versus the average person.
(08:47):
And you're also very driven.
You want to keep pushingyourself to succeed.
Not necessarily a lot of myclients don't want to get the
corner office.
That's not what they're after.
They just have this naturaldrive to be better than they
were yesterday.
Yeah.
So those two qualities, amazingcombination.
But again, like I said before,if we're unbalanced, can really
(09:08):
get in our way.
Yeah.
So coming back to the title ofthe show, actually, one thing I
see for us sensitive strivers iswe have a high level of
responsibility.
And often that shows up asdedication to our work, loyalty
to others.
We want to go above and beyond,volunteer, say yes.
We are happy to help to afault.
(09:29):
Yes.
And that is one of the patternsI see the most, and that can be
the most dangerous for people,is getting into this cycle of
overfunctioning, where you aretaking on more responsibility,
literally and psychologically,more responsibility in terms of
tasks on your plate, obligationsthat you have, but also the
(09:51):
mental and emotional load ofwhat you are carrying.
And when you areoverfunctioning, it can
inadvertently create thisdynamic where other people
underfunction.
Not necessarily because they'rebad people, but because if
we're always the ones swoopingin to make sure something gets
over the finish line, otherpeople don't have to step up.
(10:12):
Yes.
So it's almost like we'reenabling lower performance.
And then we get resentful aboutthat and the cycle goes round
and round.
Priscilla (10:22):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
You know, what you'redescribing is like most people I
know who work in customersupport.
Jordan (10:28):
Yeah.
Priscilla (10:29):
Because naturally the people who are really good at
this role are people who arehappy to help.
They tend to be peoplepleasers, they tend to really
enjoy that act of coming in andsupporting a customer.
The people who are really goodat that, that's like a natural
part of who they are.
And so what you just describedis 100% true, where you'll see
(10:51):
people taking on this extraweight that maybe they
shouldn't, but they don't reallyknow how to handle that.
And so one of the things Iwanted to talk about was this
idea of creating healthyboundaries so that we as support
professionals can protectourselves while still offering
that emotional help to ourcustomers, because there's so
much of this balance between,you know, our job is to help our
(11:14):
customers and to represent ourbrand and to be there for them
and to build relationships.
But then at what cost you haveto be aware of those boundaries.
And so one of the things Ithink about a lot is how do we
as support professionals buildthose boundaries without
emotionally detaching from thecustomers that we're working
with?
Melody (11:33):
Yeah.
It's a fine line.
It's a fine line, right?
Because it's it's baked intothe nature of your role.
And of course, you always wantto walk this balance of being a
team player and a servant leaderwithout driving yourself into
burnout.
Yeah.
Right.
I have an episode of my showthat I did a couple months ago
that was called the top threeboundary mistakes that people
(11:54):
make.
And one of the main points Imake in that episode is that we
want to be less focused onsetting boundaries and more
focused on setting expectations.
That may sound like semantics,but the difference is very
profound because expectationsare proactive.
It's here's our typicalresponse time, or here's the
(12:16):
channels by which you can reachus.
Let me give you an example ofthis.
So, with my team, we use acommunity platform where we host
all our programs and thingslike that.
And uh it has a DM featurewhere people could DM me or
someone from my team.
Jordan (12:31):
Yeah.
Melody (12:31):
And people would DM us questions, whether it was about
billing or even a coachingquestion, for example.
And every single time I wouldhave this psychological
rigmarole of, oh gosh, I have toget back to them, but I feel
like I'm giving this personpreferential treatment because
other people aren't DMing me.
And now I have to push back onthem and say, you know, I really
(12:54):
can't respond to messages.
Like we can't go back and forthabout this and here.
So can you redirect this?
I would go through this wholething.
And so at the beginning of theyear, I said to my team, new
policy going forward.
We are not going to be able torespond to DMs.
And we communicated that as anexpectation to our clients.
Hey, brief change.
(13:14):
If you want to get the best andthe fastest service from us,
reach out at this email sonothing gets lost.
And that's how we'll be able toserve you.
And now we have anautoresponder up.
And if a message comes in, Ihave removed the worry of having
to set a boundary and all theemotional upheaval I would go
through.
It seems like a small example,but there are countless
(13:37):
situations where we get intothis over time.
Priscilla (13:40):
I like the distinction between expectations
and boundaries becauseboundaries to me feel like more
in the moment, throwing them upand trying to figure out, okay,
right in this situation, I needto set a boundary.
And that can be hard to dobecause it can come across as
rude.
It can come across as badcustomer support if you're
trying to in the moment throw aboundary up, even though it's
(14:03):
not bad customer supportnecessarily, it can feel that
way.
Yeah.
But if you set an expectation,it's kind of like you're
preparing before you go intobattle.
You're going, okay, this is howI'm going to handle this before
I get there.
And that way everyone's on thesame page before you get into
that moment where emotions arehigh and we're trying to keep
ourselves protected.
(14:23):
So I like that distinction.
And I think a lot of customersupport professionals feel that
when it comes to like phonesupport versus email support.
And a lot of times you'll hear,especially with, you know, SaaS
products, where they don't wantto offer phone support because
that boundary is really hard toput up when you're on a phone
(14:44):
call with a customer.
So limiting it to email supportallows you the freedom to say,
okay, this is the expectationaround this.
And then occasionally I canmake an exception and make a
phone call when that's somethingI'm choosing so that I can
protect myself.
I think that's just a reallycool way to look at it, defining
it with those two differentterms.
Melody (15:05):
Yeah.
To make sure you get the bestand fastest support and nothing
falls through the cracks, that'svery intentional.
Because if we can contextualizeour boundary or our
expectation, whatever it is, inhow does this actually serve
you, person I am setting thiswith, in terms of you getting
the most accurate information orthe fastest, highest quality
(15:29):
response or support, then theperson doesn't feel as on the
defensive as, oh, you're takingsomething away from me.
It's more of this is in serviceof doing what's best for you
and your experience overall.
So I think that's importanttoo, because a lot of us,
especially sensitive strivers,will approach boundaries with a
(15:50):
lot of shame.
Jordan (15:50):
Yeah.
Melody (15:51):
To say, oh, I'm I'm so sorry.
I hate to have to do this, or Ireally don't want to disappoint
you, right?
We teach people how to treatus.
And so if you're arriving atthat and messaging it with shame
and excessive contrition,right, when it's not necessarily
warranted, the other personresponds to that.
(16:11):
But if you say, here's why thisis for your benefit, it totally
changes the energy and theother person's reaction as a
result.
Priscilla (16:18):
And it forces you to think through that when you're
setting those expectations andthe boundaries to think through
that and go, okay, why are wedoing it this way?
Why are we gonna not providethis mode of communication or
whatever it is?
You can actually sit down andthink through that, okay,
because it's actually gonna beeasier for someone to come back
to the information we're givingthem if it's written.
Yes, versus if it's in a phonecall or something like that.
(16:39):
And that way you have thatready when you're talking with
your customer about that.
And we've done that before onour end, where we've gone, okay,
why is it that we don't offerphone support?
We don't want to say we justdon't do it because we just
don't do it.
We want to have reasoningbehind that.
And some of that will beserving us to protect us, but
some of that, like youmentioned, is to serve the
(17:00):
customer.
And so being able tocommunicate that and define that
as a team is really important.
And then you can go and clarifyit with your customer in a way
that makes them feel more servedbecause you've thought about
them in that way.
So, what are some signs thatyour boundaries or those
expectations are being crossed,even if someone's like not being
rude or going through a, youknow, the wrong channel?
(17:22):
Like, how can we identify thatif we're not used to having like
firm boundaries andexpectations?
Melody (17:27):
Yeah.
The biggest emotional red flagis resentment.
And I referred to that earlier.
Yeah.
Resentment is a huge telltalesign that you have let something
go on for far too long than itshould have, right?
Or, or you have beenoverextending yourself without a
feeling of reciprocity orrecognition there.
(17:50):
And so sometimes I will haveclients do a resentment audit.
What are the areas where thatfeeling is even creeping up for
you past, let's say uh four outof 10 or higher?
Because those are areas wherewe may have to set or reset some
boundaries around, you know,whether it's your level of
(18:11):
commitment or it's the scope ofhow you're involved.
But that's a really good placeto start because resentment,
it's simmering.
Sometimes you do get this flashof just indignation when you
see an email hit your inbox orsomeone's name come across your
Slacker teams.
But other times it's just thiskind of anger that's weighing
(18:34):
you down.
So that's what I would say isthe big one that most people
overlook.
There's a lot of goodinformation in that emotional
data.
Priscilla (18:42):
I feel that a lot.
And I think for a long time, Ithought the solution to that was
that I just needed to figureout a way to let it go.
And I think to an extent, thereis part of that.
But what I'm learning as I growand, you know, as an adult is
that those boundaries really aregonna help to ease that and to
remove some of that resentment.
(19:03):
And so I think that's a veryimportant thing to be on the
lookout for because I think alot of people don't notice that
as it's simmering until it hitsa point where it's just it's so
much.
And then it's hard to moveforward from that.
Melody (19:15):
Yeah.
And a more uh tactical one thatI see a lot, which it sounds
backwards.
A lot of the people who, whenthey first come to work with me
and my team, they'll say they'vereceived feedback around things
like they're not strategicenough or they don't know how to
prioritize.
Some of them will even be beingtold you're too valuable where
(19:39):
you are.
And that is a big red flag thatyou need boundaries because you
have made yourselfindispensable to the point where
you've made yourself unmovableor unpromotable.
And it's a very tricky, right?
This is that happy to helpmentality.
Let me step in.
But then you can paint yourselfinto a corner of no one else
(20:01):
can do your role, or there's nota lot of mobility for you to
take on other projects becauseyou have all the knowledge in
your head, right?
You haven't created SOPs ortemplates that other people can
use.
So it's too expensive or it'stoo risky to let you move
somewhere else.
And the other part of thatabout not being strategic or not
(20:21):
knowing how to prioritize iswhen you are indiscriminately
saying yes to everything, thatdoesn't signal you know how to
evaluate the trade-offs or youknow how to have tough
conversations, some of thosemore mid or senior level skills
that you might need.
And so we have this equationgrowing up that, you know,
(20:43):
effort plus time, if I just workhard and bide my time,
therefore I will be successful.
And it can be a real mindswitch to realize that being
able to push back tactfully iswhat will help you get ahead
because it's the opposite of theway we've been conditioned to
(21:04):
grow in our careers.
Yeah.
Priscilla (21:05):
Yeah.
And I remember early on workingwhen I started over here at
Buzzprout, someone sayingsomething along the lines of,
everyone here is replaceable.
And I remember thinking, like,oh, yikes, like I don't want to
hear that.
Like we're all replaceable.
Like I could be fired at anymoment.
Is that what you mean?
But what they meant was youactually get the freedom to
leave and not think about work.
(21:27):
We don't want you to be in amindset where you are
irreplaceable, so you can'tmove.
Jordan (21:31):
Yeah.
Priscilla (21:31):
So just like what you were saying, where you can't
move up because you'reirreplaceable where you are, or
you can't take a vacationbecause no one can do your job
the way you can do your job.
And so having that mindset issomething that I know I used to
cling to, like I'm irreplaceablein this way.
But then when I started workinghere, it was like, actually,
no, you are replaceable.
But where you're notreplaceable is at home with your
(21:53):
family.
Where you're not replaceableare these other places.
But at work, you should be ableto be replaceable.
You Want to be so that you canmove on to the next thing or
move up, or there's the phraseyou can't steal second if you're
standing on first.
Yeah.
I think that that's reallyimportant.
So one of the things that youtalk about a lot is negative
(22:14):
self-talk.
I am someone who's always beenin my head.
I said that early on, but Ispend a lot of time in my head.
And sometimes it's negative,sometimes it's positive.
More often than not, it'snegative.
And what I think is interestingis working in support, you
know, you deal with alldifferent types of people all
day.
And some people are frustratedand they say things to you in
(22:35):
support that actually reinforcesthe negative self-talk that
you're trying to get out of.
Yeah.
And so, how does self-talk playinto our corporate life?
And then what advice would youhave for people who are really
struggling to get out of theirhead in that sense?
Melody (22:51):
You hit the nail on the head that the feedback or the
criticism that tends to stingthe most is the one that
confirms the worst things webelieve about ourselves, right?
Like you're not being helpfulenough.
Or I thought this was actuallya good company, right?
And you're like, oh, it justhits you like a dagger when
people say that because thoseare hitting on your
(23:13):
insecurities.
And so part of being, we'vebeen talking about being a
sensitive striver,thoughtfulness is a huge part of
this trait where it can be agigantic advantage to be able to
see different sides of asituation or have empathy for a
customer, for example.
But we can become so self-awarethat we become self-conscious,
(23:36):
right?
It goes all the way around.
Yes.
One of the tricks I talk aboutin my book, Trust Yourself, is
to give that inner critic aname.
It sounds silly, and that'sactually part of the point of
it.
Priscilla (23:48):
Yeah.
Melody (23:48):
Is to give that inner critic an identity that is
separate from you.
So when you hear that talktrack coming up, and let me just
go back to that for a second,because if that talk track is
coming up, our brain is going tofilter for everything that
confirms that, right?
Our our brain just takes amental shortcut and says, what
(24:09):
information confirms theidentity and the story I have
about myself and the world?
I'm just going to listen tothat.
And so if you think you're notgood enough or you you think
you're a difficult person,right?
You're going to scan for all ofthat to confirm that story.
Yeah.
And so if you can put a labelon that inner critic, you know,
I called mine Bozo.
(24:30):
I have That's a good one.
Yeah.
I have had clients who callthat theirs uh Miranda
Priestley, or I once had someonewho had a little Darth Vader
that he would keep on his desk,and that was like his inner
critic totem that he would beable to talk to.
Jordan (24:44):
Yeah.
Melody (24:44):
And there's psychology that shows when we can have that
psychological distance from ourthoughts where we're not fused
with them.
They're not so automatic.
We're giving ourselves justthat second of space and agency
to have awareness to say, isthis what I want to believe
right now?
Does this actually move mecloser or further away to my
(25:05):
values and my goals?
That moment of awareness helpsyou be more calm.
It helps you stay in yourprefrontal cortex where you can
uh have higher reasoning andmore self-control.
So when that person is comingat you with their own anger,
you're able to say, this is areflection of them possibly
having a bad day.
And I like to go through whatare five possible reasons this
(25:29):
person may be reacting this way,besides I suck and I'm terrible
at my job.
What are other explanations?
Maybe their boss yelled atthem, they got a flat tire this
morning.
Uh, their kid wouldn't getdressed for school, whatever it
is.
But it helps to get yourselfoff of that thought track of
just confirming the insecuritiesyou have about yourself.
Priscilla (25:51):
Yeah, I think that's such a good piece of advice.
We talk a lot about thinkingabout the fact that our
customers have their own storyand that they are bringing their
own context into anyinteraction we have with them.
And it helps us to relate withthem better.
And then when they'refrustrated, it helps us to give
them more grace in those momentswithout taking that personally
(26:12):
when they get frustrated.
So I think that taking a beatto really think through and list
out five things is a reallygood tool that you can use to
put yourself back in thatmindset of like, this is not
about me necessarily.
And I don't need to let this bea reflection of me.
The goal here is to help themget to their next step and move
(26:33):
on to the next thing.
On that same plane, you know,dealing with frustrated
customers can be reallydraining.
And in customer support,especially depending on your
customers.
I mean, we at Buzzbrout havefantastic customers, and very
rarely do we have reallyfrustrated, really mean people.
But sometimes that happens.
(26:53):
And for some companies, youhave more people that are
frustrated than others.
And so you might be dealingwith a repeat, like every email,
there's some frustration, or ifyou're in the middle of a bug
and everyone's frustrated andwriting in about that.
What is that repeated exposureto frustration or like urgency
in support?
How does that affect us,especially when we haven't
(27:15):
established those boundaries orthose expectations?
Melody (27:18):
Yeah.
Well, particularly if you'resomeone who's more on the
sensitive side of the spectrum,there's research that shows that
we have more active mirrorneurons, which are essentially
the empathy neurons.
So our brain lights up morewhen we are experiencing the
emotions of other people.
And so we're we are literallytaking in more of other people's
(27:41):
emotional reactions, especiallynegativity.
Negativity is very contagious,and that's for evolutionary
purposes.
It is helpful and protective ifpeople are more scared or on
alert or panicked because our,you know, prehistoric selves
think that's going to keep ussafe.
Priscilla (27:59):
Yeah.
Melody (28:00):
So that's why negativity spreads so much.
And it can keep you on thathigh alert fight or flight.
And the model uh we use in mybook, Trust Yourself, and in
some of my programs, we callthat vigilance, where your
vigilance becomes unbalanced tothe point where you're always
scanning for risks.
(28:20):
Are people happy with me?
Are they upset?
And you may be reading intosituations and small cues more
than you would before.
Yes.
And all of that carries home,right?
Because it's like you havethese emotional tabs open or
residue on you that you have toprocess at some time.
Priscilla (28:39):
Right.
Melody (28:40):
And so what we work with a lot of people on is trying to
create that boundary, thatdistinction between work time
and personal time.
Because if we don't, if wedon't create some of those
internal mental boundaries,there's no healthy
compartmentalization.
You are always just going to beturning over, oh, could I said
(29:00):
something differently in thatemail, or maybe I should have
responded sooner, right?
You're just constantly turningover those situations in your
head and beating yourself up, oreven being angry yourself at I
can't believe that person wassuch a jerk to me.
Like, what's wrong witheverybody today?
Right.
It just becomes this darkcloud.
Yeah.
So having some sort of atransition ritual between your
(29:22):
workday and then the rest ofyour life is extremely
important.
So you are creating that senseof closure.
Jordan (29:30):
Yeah.
Melody (29:30):
And this doesn't have to be elaborate.
You know, we have some peoplethat at the end of the day just
write down here were threemoments of strength.
I kept my cool when this whenthis client was coming at me and
sending 10 messages in a row.
Or uh I was I was able to pushthrough this project that I've
been procrastinating on forever.
So you could write down thosethree things.
(29:52):
Maybe it's for me, it's alwayssome form of changing my
clothes, lighting a candle,turning the TV on, just
something that signifies onesection of the day is over and
we're putting that aside andwe're starting the next one.
Priscilla (30:08):
Yeah.
And you saying that makes methink about where we are as far
as working remotely goes,because that was built into our
days when we would leave theoffice and drive home and have a
commute to make thattransition.
Yep.
That's where I do it.
I still go to the officebecause I like to have that
separation, but I know a lot ofpeople work from home and it is
(30:28):
a lot harder to have thatseparation.
So, how do you think that hasaffected the lack of a commute
for a lot of people?
How has that affectedpsychology and the bleeding over
between work and home life?
Melody (30:41):
Oh, huge.
Huge.
During during the pandemic, Ifound myself talking much more
about what I called work fromhome paranoia, which was just
again, just this constantheightened state of ruminating
over everything because we oftennow lack more of the cues we
had when we were in office.
You could see your boss in thehallway and get a nod and just a
(31:04):
little uh touch base that,okay, everything's okay.
We're good, right?
We're good.
But now we're we're having toread into all of those cues.
Like, why did they use a periodinstead of an exclamation
point?
Is that a bad sign?
You know, yeah.
And to your point, we don'thave those natural uh
transitions that we had before.
(31:25):
So it's just one long period oftime.
And that's why you findyourself kind of going over
things when you're at the dinnertable, for example, because we
haven't deliberately put thoseboundaries in place.
Priscilla (31:37):
Yeah.
I think that's so insightfuland so true.
I think of the things likegoing to lunch with your
coworkers from differentdepartments and spending time
with them.
And I'm sure there are peoplethat are in office that still do
that.
And that's fantastic.
But I think it used to be soregular, at least I know for me
before the pandemic, every daywe were going having lunch and
(31:57):
talking about things thatweren't work related.
And it builds theserelationships.
So then you don't ruminate asmuch on the why did they use a
period?
Why didn't they use anexclamation point?
And that's, oh, are theyfrustrated with me?
They called this meeting.
I don't know what's going on.
But when you don't have thatrelationship built, it is a lot
easier to get in your head.
And that's where things can getdangerous in my experience.
(32:20):
Yeah.
So one of the things youmentioned in this podcast, but
also in your other writing, isthat sensitivity can be a
competitive advantage.
Um, you refer to perceptivenessand emotional intelligence as
superpowers when it comes toinfluencing those who you work
with.
So, how can supportprofessionals with those
superpowers, because a lot ofthem have those superpowers?
(32:42):
Yeah, how can they use thosewhen building customer
relationships?
Melody (32:45):
Yeah, I believe this now more than ever, especially with
the rise of AI and so muchautomation.
There's just so much distancein our interactions.
And I really believe that ifyou're someone who has high
empathy, high emotionalintelligence, your ability to
understand people's pain points,desires, needs, that is
(33:07):
everything now.
That is exactly what's neededto influence people, to get
buy-in, to get them to takeaction.
So, a very simple example, weteach this in one of my
programs.
It's called Speak Like a SeniorLeader, where we're really
working with mid-level corporateprofessionals to help them
navigate the differentstakeholders.
But this certainly applies whenyou're building relationships
(33:28):
with customers too, is to usethat perceptiveness to flex your
communication style to more somatch and mirror the other
person.
So, for example, in my bookManaging Up, I talk about how
there's four primarycommunication styles.
And they're based on the factthat people can be either highly
(33:51):
dominant communicators orhighly sociable communicators.
So, do we prioritize speed,results, outcomes, assertiveness
in the way we communicate?
Do we prioritize people,relationships, connections,
stories, things like that?
And if you can recognize thatsomeone is what in my
vernacular, I would call acheerleader who is someone who
(34:13):
is both highly dominant andhighly sociable.
Those people are using wordslike vision, mission,
enthusiasm, excitement.
I would love to be able to dothis for you, right?
They're including anecdotes ofmaybe other happy customers or
stakeholders who really enjoyedthis product or this idea as
(34:36):
well.
You're going to get fasterbuy-in and agreement from that
person than if you wereprioritizing caution.
And uh, we need to take thisslowly, and maybe we should do a
pilot first.
The cheerleader is more of thelet's go.
This is exciting.
We have so much opportunityhere.
Just those little tweaks in howyou frame and present your
(35:00):
message can make such a hugedifference in how it's received
by the other person.
It's the difference betweentalking at them and getting
through to them.
Priscilla (35:10):
Yes.
And if you look at that in asupport role or in a support
experience, what that means isyou are, you know, you're
working with them, you'retalking to them as a human being
and not talking at them as likea customer.
And so there's that connectionthere and it's like mirroring
that and the energy that comesalong with it.
(35:30):
Because ultimately, withcustomer support, we are trying
to educate and we're trying tosolve their problems in that
way.
And I think that knowing how toflex that communication based
on who you're talking with isreally important.
And I like that energy thatcomes into it because I think
what separates a good customersupport experience from a great
(35:54):
customer support experience isthat personal touch and that
energy that we can bring ascustomer support professionals.
I want to transition a littlebit here to some strategies that
we can use, you know, to createthose boundaries to build these
habits that will just make ourlives easier and make us more
successful in our roles incustomer support and just in our
(36:15):
work lives in general.
Do you have any tips forprofessionals who are struggling
to separate that the customeris frustrated versus the
customer is frustrated with me?
Melody (36:26):
Yeah.
This also comes back toself-talk and putting
psychological distance betweentheir reaction and yours.
Some people find it helpful.
Some of my clients like to havea visualization of they're in a
bubble, or uh, one of mycolleagues would say she would
like paint her body in goldarmor before she would go into a
tough conversation or anegotiation.
(36:46):
And that was her reminder thatthe other person's reaction
stays with them.
It doesn't come on to me.
Some people imagine like it'sthey're a duck and it's sort of
water off their back that thisbelongs to the other person.
So if a visualization helpsyou, that's great.
Another little trick is to usephrases like this person is
(37:08):
having the feeling offrustration versus this person
is frustrated.
Yeah.
It is so small, but it's areminder that this person is
having an experience and aninterpretation of this
experience that is theirs toown.
Priscilla (37:25):
Yeah.
Melody (37:25):
And the same goes for you.
You can say, I'm having thethought that I'm a complete
failure in this role versus I'ma failure in this role.
The saying, I'm having thethought that acknowledges that
these are just words in my heador these are letters on the
screen.
They don't necessarily have tohurt me or have a deeper
(37:46):
interpretation behind them.
Priscilla (37:48):
And it gives you the ability to not define yourself
by one emotion, or define yourcustomer by one emotion or one
experience.
We are all very layered people.
We will make mistakes, butviewing it like that allows you
to say, like, I am not this oneexperience.
This one experience ishappening right now, but this is
(38:10):
not who I am, and this is notwho they are.
Jordan (38:12):
Yeah.
Priscilla (38:13):
I know for myself that that can be really hard to
separate.
But once you figure out how toseparate it and to remind
yourself that like the negativeself-talk is not necessarily the
reality, once you can separatethat, it makes life way easier
and it just makes things waymore enjoyable.
One of the things that I see alot of customer support
(38:35):
professionals run into is thisfeeling of a customer pushing
back on the facts and then youhaving to step into this role,
be a little more assertive thanmaybe you would normally be,
stand in your confidence alittle bit more than maybe you
would need to be because youhave this pushback from a
customer who's saying, well,actually, that's not true when
(38:55):
the reality is it is true.
So, what are one or twopractical tools that support
professionals can use to feelconfident in those difficult
customer-facing situations wherethey have to be a little more
assertive and that might feeluncomfortable?
Melody (39:11):
Two things.
Number one, where possible, tryto stay forward-looking and
solution focused.
So you can say, I understand.
And my goal for thisconversation now is to figure
out how we resolve this for you.
So I think a lot of us go backthere and try to relitigate what
has happened, but instead justrecognize it and try to move
(39:34):
forward and redirect or refocusthe conversation to what you can
do now.
Yeah.
So that's one thing.
Number two is there are certainsituations where you may want
to stand your ground.
And in those uh circumstances,using what's called the broken
record technique can be veryhelpful.
That's where you repeat aphrase just in a level tone
(39:58):
again and again.
And you may want to rephraseit.
So you're not just saying thesame thing, but you can say, you
know, as I mentioned, this wasour policy that was stated at
checkout, for example.
You may say, I understand.
However, this was what youagreed to when you checked out,
right?
And you just keep coming backto one statement, not escalating
your voice, especially if thisis over the phone or voice, but
(40:22):
just coming back to that,reiterating it.
Sometimes that can take the airout of a person's reaction
because you're not caving totheir pressure tactics.
Priscilla (40:32):
Which can be really hard, especially when you're in
a either face-to-face or uhvoice-to-voice situation.
It can be really hard,especially when you're the kind
of person that is happy to helpand wants this.
And then you're in a momentwhere now you have to be
assertive and you have to standwith like your back and like,
you know, stay firm on somethingbecause there's no way around
it.
(40:52):
We find that sometimes passingthe voice to another person can
help too.
If you're getting stuck in thatloop and there also, you know,
being a broken record on theother side, you go, okay, I'm
gonna have to get someone elsein here and see if that can help
us get out of this.
Like sometimes that's astrategy that we use.
But honestly, one of the thingsthat is so hard about customer
(41:14):
support is that you finish oneof those conversations and you
start another one.
And it might be that the nextone is completely different
tonally, but it might be thatit's another frustrated person.
You just never know.
And carrying that feeling fromperson to person can be really
dangerous because then you mighttreat one customer a certain
way because the person you justworked with was rude and now
(41:37):
you're feeling that still.
And we talked about findingways to reset at the end of a
workday so that you can go andbe in your home life in a
healthy environment.
But what about kind ofswitching email to email?
Like, do you have any tips orstrategies for resetting within
each email in a way that isreally meaningful and allows you
to focus on the next email orinto the next person?
Melody (41:59):
Two things come to mind.
First is if you can giveyourself a break or if you can
break up so you're not justgoing directly into that next
email.
You get up from your desk, yougo make a cup of coffee or
whatever, take a lap around yourhouse, just so you have some
shift out of that emotion.
Because I always like to say,you can't get over an emotion,
(42:20):
you have to go through it.
And that stress, it's gonnastay in your body.
You have to metabolize itsomehow.
And I understand you can't stopyour day and meditate for 20
minutes.
Most of us can't do that.
Yeah, but you can stand up andmaybe just like shake your
shoulders and just get it out,or again, go refill your glass
of water and come back and letthat be your physical reset for
(42:43):
it.
So you can do that.
And I find the principle ofassuming best intent saves me
more times than not.
If I just open every email,even after I've had a tough
interaction, if I just go intothe next one, assuming best
intent, that people are doingthe best they can, but the
resources they have that helpssave me from carrying over that
(43:07):
projection from one interactioninto the next.
Jordan (43:10):
That is becoming our catchphrase on this podcast,
assuming you've been.
Priscilla (43:14):
I feel like it's my catchphrase for my life.
Yes.
Is assume positive intent.
I remember probably 10 yearsago, a friend of mine saying it
to me, and it was the first timeI'd ever heard it.
And this was not a worksituation, but she said, like,
we just have to assume positiveintent.
And it just kind of like hitme, and I was like, wait, I
should be living my whole lifeassuming positive intent.
(43:35):
Yes, yeah, until someone provesto me that the intent is not
positive.
But until then, I'm gonnaassume it.
And I really think it it makesyour life more enjoyable.
It sure is.
Like it's a it's a benefit foryou if you're assuming positive
intent from the people aroundyou.
It makes your life better.
So it's kind of selfish, but itreally is something I think
about all the time.
Yeah.
So one of the things that istalked about a lot in this is
(43:59):
the idea.
That leadership is modeling alot of these healthy habits,
right?
With customer supportprofessionals, a lot of times it
gets hard and your leader iswho you are.
I mean, honestly, customersupport, but any workplace, your
leaders who you're looking forto model those kind of
behaviors.
So I want to talk about some ofthese habits from the top down
(44:22):
and how we as leaders can helpequip the people on our team
with these strategies and thenhow we can model it.
So, what do you think, youknow, leaders can do to help
normalize boundaries andemotional protection for the
people that are working maybe inthese support roles?
Melody (44:39):
Oh, so many things come to mind.
First of all, I have lovedseeing more leaders add
descriptive text to theirsign-offs on email around these
are my response times, these aremy working hours.
I think that is wonderful.
As you were saying, just givingpeople um permission, you have
to go first, right?
(45:00):
For other people to see this isacceptable.
That's one thing.
The other thing that comes tomind that I end up doing with a
lot of my clients is settingteam values, which sounds very
lame, but stay with me.
Setting team values, but usingthose as ways for how we behave
(45:20):
and we show up as a team.
So it's one thing to say wevalue balance or we value
transparency or creativity orcompassion, whatever it is.
But what does that look like inaction?
Right.
I just had a leader go throughthis who inherited a team of
communication experts andthey've received some feedback
(45:42):
that a number of deliverableshave been off base and their
highest stakeholders have notbeen satisfied.
And so she has said, okay,well, I have to get on top of
this somehow.
She had a team retreat, theywent through a values exercise,
and one of the values she putforth was attention to detail.
And it's not just, okay, we'regoing to have attention to
detail.
(46:02):
That means different things todifferent people.
Jordan (46:04):
Yeah.
Melody (46:04):
And so she said, what that means is in terms of how we
operate, we do X, we do Y, wedo Z.
Does that sound doable toeveryone?
Is everyone in agreement thatwe're all we're all behind this?
Yes.
Now that gives her something tocome back to in one-on-ones in
team all hands, for example, tosay, here's how we're living up
(46:26):
to this, here's how we're not asclose to it.
And everyone has a sharedunderstanding, buy-in language
around that.
So that's what I would say.
If you have a team norm ofbalance, for example, well, what
does that mean?
Maybe that means that if youhave to head out because your
kid is a soccer game or you havea family emergency, you uh
(46:47):
check in with the rest of theteam and you let people know
when you're going to get back tothem about the things you owed
them.
Yeah.
Right.
It's that uh specific and thatbehavioral.
That's really important.
Priscilla (46:58):
Yeah.
One thing I love is when youhave those values set and then
you go to shout out someone onyour team, linking that directly
back to a value.
Yes.
And saying this thing that theydid really well, you could just
say, hey, great job today.
You did a great job.
But if you go, hey, great jobin this moment, because this
showed this value that we allare working toward.
(47:19):
Yeah.
It connects it back.
That positive reinforcementshows everyone on the team what
it looks like to be detailoriented or to have compassion
or to whatever, to balancethings well, whatever it is that
the value is you'rereinforcing.
So that's something that Idon't do as often as I probably
should, but I really love thatlike connection and making that
(47:41):
really obvious and talking aboutyour values a lot with the
people on your team.
Jordan (47:46):
I think that's really important too, especially if you
are a remote worker, becausethere's so much asynchronous
communication that you reallydon't get a lot of the, I don't
know what the word for it is,like subcontext of what things
are implied because it's justthrough this like written
communication or, you know,maybe like a meeting every two
weeks or something like that.
And so, yeah, getting thosekind of context clues for what
(48:09):
our values actually truly meanand how they are put into action
is a huge benefit to remoteworkers.
Yeah.
Priscilla (48:16):
So as we kind of wrap this up, what advice would you
have for our listeners who areresonating with this, but they
really don't know where to startwhen it comes to having this
play out in their day-to-daylife?
Melody (48:30):
Well, I go back to that idea of the resentment audit,
looking for those areas wherethat emotion is really flaring
up to you.
But I'll add one more tip,which is if you are someone who
struggles to set boundaries,start with something I call the
trade-off approach, which issetting a boundary and saying we
can do X or we can do Y, whichwould you prefer we deprioritize
(48:55):
or we slow down on?
It's a great way instead ofjust saying, no, we can't do
that.
I can't believe you're addingyet another thing to our plate.
Or if a customer comes to youand is asking for a refund and a
discount on their next product,you can say we can do X or we
can do Y.
Which would you prefer?
Right.
So giving people those binaryoptions can be a nice way to
(49:15):
ease into, ease into uh settingthose limits.
I love that.
Priscilla (49:19):
Yeah, that's a really good tip.
What is one thing you wish moreleaders understood about their
role in the health of theirteam?
We'll end on that.
Melody (49:29):
Yeah, that the signal comes from the top, right?
And everything trickles downfrom what you do.
People are looking at you asthe example.
They are watching the nonverbaland the verbal steps that you
take.
And what is most telling forpeople is when you say one thing
and you do another, right?
That that is the most telling.
(49:50):
And so uh, if you want a teamthat is sustainable and people
not burning out, you have to bethe one going first.
Yeah.
Priscilla (49:59):
That's the root of it, right there is that you have
to model the behavior you want.
Jordan (50:03):
Yeah.
Priscilla (50:04):
And we're all trying to find ways to avoid burnout.
And I think what you bring tothe table with this angle of how
psychology plays into it is soimportant to know.
Thank you so much for coming onand sharing all of this with
us.
I feel like I have this toolbelt now of different things I
can do to be better in my job.
(50:25):
Yeah.
And I think that that's reallycool.
For anyone who's listening whois not familiar with you, how
can they reach out to you, learnmore about you, get your books?
Melody (50:34):
Yes, melodywilding.com is the best place to connect
with me.
And as you were mentioning, Ialso have a podcast that is
hosted on Buzzsprout.
So that is called Psychology atWork.
I would love for you tosubscribe.
We're publishing episodes andinterviews every single week.
So that is also a great area tobinge.
Yes.
Priscilla (50:52):
Yeah, and I highly recommend it.
I have been listening to a lotof episodes over the last couple
of weeks, and they are really,really incredible.
They're very similar to this,right?
Where you're getting a lot ofreally good practical advice
with how to handle difficultsituations at work.
And for people that are in ouremotional world, it can be
(51:14):
really, really, reallybeneficial to have these tools
in your tool belt.
So I highly recommend thepodcast.
And thank you again so much forcoming on the show today.
Thank you for having me.
If you have a question or atopic that you would like us to
cover in a future episode, youcan shoot us a text using the
send us a text link in theepisode description.
As always, if you like thisepisode, please share it with
(51:37):
someone who works in customersupport or leave a review on
Apple Podcasts.
Thank you again to MelodyWilding for joining us on
today's episode.
Thank you for listening.
Now go and make someone's day.
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