You asked, Kat answered! Get ready for our 'Epic Yarn' - Part 2.
Part 1 saw Landscape Architect Hannah Galloway explore the topic of ‘Listening’ with First Nations Consultant, Cultural Advisor and Storyteller Kat Rodwell. For the second half of this Epic Yarn, we asked listeners to send in questions to ask Kat - and boy, did you deliver.
No question was off-limits, and the prompt of 'get comfortable with being uncomfortable' saw questions about the dangers of 'fetishisation', about agriculture and contemporising culture, and the danger of Traditional Owners (TO’s) and First Nations consultant groups becoming overwhelmed and burnt-out. You also asked questions about the design industry, on reconciling project timelines, and the ways we can regenerate Country.
Part 1 explored the ‘eggshells’ of engagement — the role of understanding that each project, situation and engagement is a unique opportunity to understand the land from the beginning. Exploring the nuances of cultural protocol and etiquette, Kat and Hannah also talked about the systems of Country that still speak loudly — even in crowded city centres — if we stop to listen.
These two episodes serve as a reminder and resource for designers, organisations, and individuals that we can listen and learn much – from Country – and each other.
Recorded on Lands of the Noongar Whadjuk people and the Wadawurrung people. Produced on the lands of the Wurundjeri people.
We pay our respects to the original custodians of the lands where we practice, and acknowledge their unique ability to care for country and their deep spiritual connection to it.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
(birds singing)
(gentle music)
- From global design practise, Hassell,
this is Hassell Talks.
Hi, everyone.
Welcome back to part two of our epic yarn
with First Nationsconsultant, cultural advisor,
and storyteller Kat Rodwell.
I'm Hannah Galloway and Iwould like to acknowledge
(00:25):
and respect the Noongar Whadjak people
and the Wadawarrung peoplethe original custodians
of the land where we record this yarn.
We honour elders past,present, and emerging,
his knowledge and wisdom has
and will ensure the continuation
of cultures and traditional practises.
So this is part two.
If you haven't listened to part one,
(00:45):
I very much recommend that you do.
It's a really bigconversation about listening
and about respect and connection,protocols, engagement,
loss, and the experience of voices
and country not beinglistened to for so long.
Kat also identified ways we can all help
to reduce the overloadTraditional Owner groups
and consultants are feeling.
(01:07):
Do go back, check it out.
If you are already across it, this episode
is where we get into the questions
our listeners have sent in.
There's some reallygreat pointy stuff here,
so let's get back into it.
(gentle music)
So we had a series of questions
that we asked throughour social media channels
(01:31):
before this podcast and recording.
And one of the questions was,what do indigenous people
and communities really want tosee in our built environment?
How do First Nations peoplewant their culture, values,
art and knowledge to betranslated into architecture?
- I'd say it's genuine,cultural, meaningful elements
(01:54):
within the built form and also elements
that contribute to everyone'swell-being and health
because the buildings andstructures become a part
of country, make themlive as part of country
and we want them to represent community,
not the same for everything.
(02:17):
We don't fit into thesame round or square hole.
We are all a different mob, as I said
so don't presume where one groupsays, oh, we are like this,
the other group's gonna be the same.
Make sure it has a connection to country
and it builds curiosity.
(02:38):
It doesn't have to be in your face.
As I said, is it that you can see country,
smell country, feelcountry, touch country?
Those elements, that'sall that has to happen.
That's all they're asking for.
But mainly they want to knowwhat are you doing on country.
What is it you are building on country?
How is country going to change?
(03:00):
Because once you changecountry, it affects us deeply.
And I always say plan out the meetings.
Probably, with me, I have probably four
with the Traditional Owner groups,
the elders on each projectbecause I think after that
it's too much overload.
(03:21):
But we always come withpurpose as well to say what
is it that you really want to know
so that we're not gonna takeup too much of their time?
Ask questions while you are there.
That's why you havefacilitators like myself
to help that conversation and to draw out
what you need to know.
But also you don't have tobe that, I call the unclear,
(03:44):
as I said to you, unclear, everyone seems
to think you've got to haveall the bits and pieces,
all the fang-dangle, whistles,the kid in the candy store.
You don't.
Listen to the stories of country.
It doesn't have to alwayshave a massive yarning circle.
It doesn't always have to have a totem.
It doesn't always have tohave an Aboriginal painting
(04:08):
or anything.
People are still treading on eggshells
about when they'reengaging us, what they can
and can't do and they're afraid to do,
especially with the design.
And I've had a really goodconversation last week
with a couple of elders onwhere you call designing
with country is going?
(04:29):
- And as you say, everyconversation and every situation
is gonna be unique so never presume
that you can have one conversation
and reuse that somewhere else.
We cannot translate.
We are asking for the privilegeof hearing these stories
and showing respect forreceiving the sharing
of stories and knowledge.
(04:51):
We come up with suggestionsand we take those back
and we look for approval on the way
that we are translating andwork through that together.
- Yeah, and you want tobe able to understand it.
For us people sometimes what you may hear
from an elder traditional learner
(05:11):
is not necessarily what they're saying.
This is sometimes where peoplelike myself will come in
and say, well actuallythis is what the story
or the language is whatis being shared with you.
It's like that great dividing cultures
and sometimes language.
Does what you build and the narrative,
(05:33):
is it easy to understand or isit so far out there they go,
that doesn't look like a Murnong?
Murnong is not blue, Murnong's yellow.
We need to be able tounderstand it as well
so it gives respect to culture.
We're not asking for a lot really.
- So, should we do oneof the pointy ones, Kat?
- Yeah, come on, let's do it, yep.
(05:54):
- This next question from online,
a question about the fetishizationof indigenous culture.
The idea that simply because something
is rooted in indigenous culturethat is necessarily good,
better or sustainable.
How do we acknowledgea culturally safe way
that no culture has evergotten everything right
(06:18):
nor ever will do?
- Ooh, I'm looking at theword and really it's saying,
well an unreasonable amountof attention really given
to indigenous culture.
And the thing that stands outin this question is I say,
well, who says we never got it right?
Just because it wasn't written down.
We're oral traditionalistsand some may argue,
(06:42):
well we did get it right.
We lived in harmony, wewere sustainable farming,
sustainable living.
We looked after country,we nourished country.
We only took what we hadto until Captain Crook,
we call him, and fellowexplorers came along
(07:03):
and came onto country and changed country.
And then things started to go pear-shaped,
as you would say it.
That's me being nice.
We had law, we've livedin harmony, and today,
this day and age, maybewe are getting it wrong
(07:25):
as a culture in some ways
because we've lost our cultural ways,
cultural elements from thepast that have disappeared.
We've lost being part ofa community sometimes,
being misinformed, people make mistakes.
So, the question is howdo we acknowledge it
(07:46):
in a culturally safe wayis well, we what together?
We work together and that's how we do it.
So, no one is perfect, there is no expert.
We look at the now and how wecan resolve or solve things.
When we talk about our cultural practises,
(08:09):
a good example would bewe lived off the land
and the waterways, which as Isaid were the giver of life.
These days now becauseof the loss of a lot
of that practise becauseculture has changed
we now go towards a bit ofyour way of agriculture.
(08:29):
- The next question is, whatcorrelation can we bring
between agriculture andnative bush agriculture?
- Country was our chemist.
It was our hospital,it was our supermarket.
And it's really funny howit's all been revived.
This bush medicine, bushtucker is being used in a lot
(08:51):
of ways now and it's being used in ways
of being farmed agriculturally,which is interesting.
That's what I'm saying, the sea asparagus,
which is on, I had a notehere, Konnichiwa county
where it's very high in certain vitamins
(09:12):
and it does taste like asparagus,
it does and you need itin the saltwater areas.
And now we're starting tofarm it Westernised ways.
An indigenous plant thoughsomething that we just used
to pick from the waterways et cetera,
that we're farming it sustainably now.
(09:33):
So the two cultures are coming together
to revive some of our bush medicine,
bush tucker, and being ableto practise their culture
with agriculture andmerging them together.
So it's using the oldways with the new ways,
working with country,with the new climate.
(09:54):
And that's why I said,
it's not giving it unreasonable attention.
We never had the attention,we weren't allowed
to practise culture, but now we can.
So, it's a hard question,but I love it, I love it.
- And I suppose it feeds into that idea
of it's good sometimes tohave hard conversations
(10:18):
and discuss things that are confronting
because that's how weunderstand each other better.
- Oh definitely.
As I said, we were told,"Cover your mouth",
we weren't allowed to say anything.
Now we can.
So, I suppose sometimes someof my people may seem angry
or they may seemconfrontational, but it's not,
(10:38):
it's the passion ofsaying, "Well now our voice
is starting to be heard.
We want to tell you things,we want to share things,
but we also need you toacknowledge the past first".
So, sustainability, we'refabulous at sustainability.
If we weren't, we wouldnever have survived.
(11:01):
But we would need to bringsome of those practises again
to the forefront, and nowso we say with our voice,
we need people to listento us more how we worked
with mother and it's notdesigning with country,
it's learning with country.
- Okay, so another question we've had
(11:22):
is do we lock it in a glass cabinet
or let everyone have a paintbrush?
- I love this one.
- Yes, it's great, isn't it?
It goes on to further sayhow do we balance respect
for cultural heritage and preservation
with enabling an ancientculture to contemporize?
(11:45):
- We are not a museum.
We do not belong in amuseum or behind glass.
We are the oldest livingculture in the world.
It is, as I said before,living cultural heritage.
(12:08):
I'm not saying to give youpaintbrush but to listen,
but we need to grow togetheron this, to still show respect.
You want to do immersion into culture
and have that experience of the immersion.
For it to be in a glasscabinet just means you just get
to look and probably tap on the glass.
(12:29):
For us, the balance is to beable to immerse yourself in
that experience.
Once again, see, hear, touch, smell.
People want to be able tofeel our spiritual connection.
They want to learn more about the history
of our past and our present.
(12:51):
So, putting in a glass cabinet, no.
It just means telling thosestories but at the same time,
showing respect, preserving them as well.
Listen and understandingas we grow together.
And we've got to remembersome of these stories
may change over time because they involve
when more comes forward because I said
(13:13):
other times we weren'tallowed to share our stories.
For example, in the Truth-Tellingtreaty here in Victoria,
stories were emerging about the treatment,
but more stories have beenshared about how we lived,
et cetera, and the culture.
- And I think that statement leads
into the next question quite well
because there is another question,
(13:34):
is posing research or engagement.
These may be conflicting,
how do you progress the design intent?
Is every project case by case?
So in other words,through the conversation
we always find potentiallyas you were saying,
new things and things arebrought to the forefront
(14:00):
through the engagement but how does
that work when it's conflicting?
- Okay, both go together.
Let's just give anexample of this research.
When people want to research something,
let's say they go onto Googleor whatever they may say,
do Aboriginal peoplelike the colour yellow?
So you put that criteria in
(14:21):
and you probably get, yes they do.
Then probably come back
and bring up the Aboriginalflag has yellow in it.
Do Aboriginal people do dot paintings?
Yes, all Aboriginalpeople do dot paintings
normally dot paintings will come up.
But you get a generalisationwhen you do your research
(14:43):
because you're putting in thecriteria you want to know.
When we do the engagement,we're narrowing it down,
getting that firsthand knowledgefrom the Traditional Owner,
from the elder, from community.
It's like saying you'll find what you want
(15:06):
when you do your research,but you'll know more
of the truth and add morerichness by doing the engagement.
Is that narrowing it down?
- One hundred percent and I'd explain it
as well as a designer, if you'retrying to represent place,
(15:28):
then yes you can, I'm in Perth,
then you can create a space or something
that reflects Perth.
But if you engage andyou understand exactly
that specific place in Perth
and as you were talkingearlier about listening
and understanding, deeperunderstanding of that place
and then having the storiesthat relate specifically
(15:51):
to that place, then you'renot gonna learn that
off the internet or research.
You need to have those from...
And it is an oral historyas you noted before
and so without talking and without having
these conversations, we're never gonna
understand the specificnature of the space
(16:12):
that we're designing in.
- Yeah.
So, it's case by case.
As I said, when you talkit outwards, people go,
"Kat, can you do a dot painting?"
I go, "If I hear that one more time,
I'll do a dot painting onyour head in a minute."
Because it's not relevantto Ngunnawal people,
it's not relevant to people in Victoria
(16:34):
where it's more linear lines.
And things like they talk about,
"Oh, you must have this certain gum tree,
you got to have a gum tree here."
And you go, "Well this gum treedid not exist in this place,
in this country."
Or they'll go, "When I go andsee people do presentations
and they put it toTraditional Owners," and I go,
(16:55):
"I wish I'd saw that first."
Because they'll put up apicture of Uluru and I go,
"But we're not there.
Uluru is not in Victoria, I'm sorry."
Or they'll put, what is it?
The Twelve Apostles, theyused to call the Piglets
or something and they'll put it in
And I go, "That is on someoneelse's country, Eastern Maar".
(17:20):
So, it's time, it's placeso we narrow it down
and learn stories of this particular place
from the Traditional Owners,elders, and community.
Definitely, as I said,you type researchers,
you type in what you want tohear, what you want to see.
(17:42):
- I think in projects thatI've worked on before,
it goes down to that level aswell that if you are trying
to represent a place,particularly if you're trying
to help a connection to that space,
if you then bring in stone from China
or you bring in a stonefrom a different country,
(18:04):
it could just be like you say
literally only a few kilometres away,
but it's a different country,then you're not enhancing
and working with developing a connection
to that specific place.
Likewise with plants, ifyou're using native plants,
you could be using a native plant,
but it could be from theother side of the country.
(18:27):
And therefore, to beendemic, to be of place,
we need to be a lot more careful
about how we use our native planting
to be more specific and more endemic
and looking at how we can incorporate
that within our process.
And also, like you say,ask if it's all right
to use a different stone, askif it's okay to bring sand.
(18:51):
We created a dance circle in a project,
a dancing circle forcelebration and coming together
and it also formed a bit ofa yarning circle as well.
And we were looking for theright sand to put in it.
We literally got different bags of sand
and sent it to ourengagement group for them
(19:11):
to feel and touch and we drew a map
to say exactly wherethe sand was coming from
to confirm it was from country,
it was from the rightcountry, the right place
and it had the right texture,it had the right feeling.
I think it's about the levelthat we go to sometimes
in trying to engage andcreate that connection
(19:35):
to place and country, but also the respect
that we go through that process
so even checking themateriality that we are using.
- Thank you.
That is so important becauseby you taking a part of country
and putting it on someone else's country,
you are taking theirancestors off that country,
(19:59):
putting them on someone else's country
and this is what we're tryingto get you to think about.
So, it's as simple as that.
When we say the plants, peoplego, oh, your native plants
and they go be awareyou have native plants,
indigenous plants, so plants that we use.
(20:20):
The country is our chemistit's our supermarket,
it is our university, itis our Bunnings, et cetera.
We only took fromcountry, news from country
because that's our spiritual connection.
When you take it to someoneelse's country, it's hurting us.
Someone said to me in the city,
(20:41):
"Well how do we know what sort of things?"
And I go, one of thebest things you can do
is if you're somewhere
where they're doing a big dig excavation,
go and have a look andsee that how deep it is
and you can see all the different,
you might get to see different ochres,
colours of country in that andwhat it looks like in that,
(21:01):
and gives you a bit of a clueto what to look for as well.
And as I said, ask first, we know a lot
of now our indigenous plantsdo not survive on country
because climate change.
We work together where we get hybrids
or something that's similar.
Sometimes we say isthere a similar colour?
(21:24):
But once again, always ask first
because it's different for each country
and what they expect.
But I like how you're saying,
please ask about bringingfrom another country
what you bring on country.
And we did that for the Werribee,
we sourced boulders from country
and then another projectwe asked permission
so that transport, evenif you get permission,
(21:45):
the transporting shouldbe done respectfully.
- Yeah, and it is, it's about asking,
having that conversation.
There might be a process or a protocol
that you can do to transfer.
It may be a smoking ceremony in regards
to respecting the ancestors from one place
before it's moved to another, et cetera.
We've done that.
(22:05):
I've done on projectsor I haven't done it,
I've witnessed it doneon projects (laughs) here
when transplanting trees thathave just come from one place
to another to help that tree reestablish
because you're taking it, asyou were describing before,
it's rooted in the groundand you're lifting it
(22:28):
and you're moving it and that'sthat spiritual connection
and that ability to bring in a process
that aids in the health of that tree.
But also the health and the connection
and the spiritual connectionfor the Traditional Owners
(22:50):
and the elders that wereinvolved in the project.
- Yeah, and have a think about it,
the in-thing now is todo an indigenous garden
with bush tucker bush medicine,which is what I do a lot of.
But when people ask me todesign one for a project,
I'm always thinking whatis the purpose of it?
(23:10):
Why do you really want one?
For educational, fantastic.
For the new buzzword, what is it?
I can't even think, it wasentertainment with education.
And I was going, "What?"
I'm going, "We don't wantjust to put plants in there
for them to die because that's hurtful".
They want to have apurpose so you don't want
(23:32):
to plant like a hundred chocolate lilies
just because the smell comesevery now and then they go,
"Oh cool", but to have them die.
We are gonna put them whereyou're gonna actually use it.
Is there a cafe or a serverythat they can actually use it?
Is it an educational piecethat people will get to see,
touch, smell, and even taste it.
(23:53):
Don't just bring it on countryjust as a tick box say,
"Look what we've done a nativeor an indigenous planting."
Make sure it's got purpose,
spend money elsewhere on a community.
- There's so many connections I think
that we don't even understand
that isn't even a possibility sometimes
before you start these conversations.
For example, a lot oflocations and sites on country
(24:17):
are sometimes female ormale, you know what I mean?
If you have objects withinthat space, say for example,
I don't know whether it's thesame across the different mobs
as you say, language groups or countries,
a women's site here, ifyou put an emu in that area
would be seen as that's a male symbol,
(24:38):
and a female location thereare different plants as well
that are more associated withwomen's business if you like
because they had medicinalpurposes for women culturally.
So, I think it's about as long
as we're having those conversations,
those things will bediscussed and teased out
and as long as we're sharing our decisions
(25:00):
and our processes and it's about just,
even if you don't think it's something
that somebody might have an interest in,
still talk about it becauseyou'll suddenly find out
that thing that was notrelated to this at all
is totally culturally inappropriate
because it's a male totem
or something within atraditionally women's site.
(25:22):
- Exactly.
This is where we are sayingwhere that open dialogue
and the question of askfirst comes into it.
So, in these co-decide, Isay co-decide design meetings
in those, ask those questions.
Is it okay if we can do this?
If the elders are not toosure, they'll go find out.
(25:43):
That's the whole point ofthat cultural journey you take
with us when we have those sessions.
But you bang on aboutthat, people forget women's
and men's business and howdifferent elements pertain
to culturally similar women's business,
culturally similar men's business
(26:04):
and initiation and everything.
And if you really want to be respectful,
then you need to know a bit more about
what you're putting in there.
Is it gonna be disrespectfulto the culture,
to the people?
You don't want to do that.
So, it's just the simplest things
and people just think it's just a tree.
No, it's not to us or it's just a boulder,
(26:26):
no, it's not just to us.
Different elements have, and every mob
will have something different, ask.
- I've got a couple morequestions I'm gonna read now.
They're taken from I suppose,more of a perspective
of logistics looking throughengagement within a project.
(26:50):
The first one I've got hereis how can we make space
to meaningfully designwith country in the context
of a bed or design competitionwhen often a huge portion
of the design is locked inbefore meaningful engagement
with the Traditional Owners?
Or is this asking too much?
(27:11):
It seems like it shouldn'tbe too much to ask
for some of our biggest, mostimportant public projects.
- Yeah, this comes up a lot
and especially when I'mon tenders and it's hard
because I always say weneed to engage first.
How do you design somethingwhen you don't even know
(27:32):
about country or protocolsor what we can and can't do?
And the timeframes within construction
and infrastructure are just so out there
that there's no room reallyfor proper full-on engagement.
When I'm on a project and itcomes to where they've got
(27:53):
to put a design in beforeyou even have contact
with Traditional Ownersbecause you're not allowed to
for competition phase, it'sbeing able to engage with people
like myself who have been privyto so much beautiful stories
and knowledge of different cultures
of different mob around Australia
where we can give you snippetsof what we've been told
(28:17):
so it's more like a bitof a background first.
It's like that paint by numbers.
We can give you a few ofthose numbers to paint in.
We give that design so thatthe design can be layered
once we have that contact,
that true Traditional Owner engagement
so that things can bebuilt within it as well.
(28:40):
The storylines can be built within it,
certain changes can be built within it
because we understand thatsome of the structure has
to already be in thetender before it even goes
to Traditional Owners.
We get that.
But there's certain things you can add
to give it that cultural narrative,
to give it that cultural input.
(29:02):
- We've also done it ina different way as well
where we've done as an art workshop.
We've invited artistsfor a workshop scenario,
spent a day sharing ideas and talking,
coming up with suggestionsso that there's a plethora
of opportunities evenif it's not necessarily,
(29:26):
you know you're goingto develop it further
through the process and the project.
- Yeah, but make sure you notjust throwing it in at the end
just for the hell of it.
- No, absolutely.
- Yeah, think about how youcan layer your design up
from that and that's whereyou get the paint by numbers,
(29:47):
and in the end you go,oh it's a fruit basket.
Good, now we know whatit was supposed to be.
A friend, an architectural friend said,
"It seems like it speaks to you."
And I go, "It does."
The building or structure willspeak to you what it wants
to become because it's part of country,
it is a living thing on country,
(30:08):
it's an extension of country now.
And that's where sometimespeople fall over,
they just go, "Nope,it's just a structure,
just a building."
It's not, so interesting.
I like that.
That's a good questionand it's really hard
for us people like me to come in to try
to fix some of these things up
because I've come in at a stage
where they've put all the plans in
(30:29):
and had no engagement whatsoever
and they've gone, "Oh crap."
And I go, "It's okay, you've now admitted
that yeah, we haven't done it.
Let's put that to the past.
Let's work out how we can move forward
and give some respect to yourstructure, to your building."
And there's always away so just don't think,
(30:51):
"Oh, we haven't done it,we're not gonna do it."
Please still engage.
- The next question we hadis very similar when it comes
to listening to Australia'sFirst Nations people
and fostering genuine engagement
towards advancing reconciliation efforts,
the phrase, nothing about us without us,
(31:14):
is important to remember,practise and embrace.
However, this place is quite a burden
on First Nations people.
A big ask for less than4% of the population.
How can non-indigenous listenersbetter respect the time,
energy, culture, and traditionof First Nations people
on the journey to voice,treaty, and truth?
(31:38):
- Once again, ask first.
Think laterally and in a partnership way,
and this is somethingthat always comes through.
Oh, I suppose not every communitywill want to participate.
We must be respectful.
(31:58):
Remember our knowledge has been lost
and we're starting toregain, retell, and share.
When I say not everyonewants to participate
because it brings up the traumaagain of the past sometimes
and not all want to engage, to share that
because there are somestories and cultural elements
(32:20):
that in our culture we don'tshare, not even with other mob.
Sometimes as you said, we share things
with women within our mob,women's business only.
Sometimes the men willshare men's things with men
so when it comes to howdo we respectfully listen
(32:43):
and about that raw truth and treaty,
give us the time tovoice what we want to say
because we haven't hadthat before, to listen.
And as I said, listeningis not just with your ears
and sometimes you brought up before,
it's not gonna take 30 minutes to an hour.
(33:05):
Sometimes it may takemonths to really understand
and get that truth-telling and the voice
and the treaty to come through.
We didn't have that theclock to tell us when,
those timeframes.
We sat down and it couldhave been for days,
(33:26):
for months 'till things were resolved.
Some things never get resolved.
Different mobs, different elders
have different experiences to share.
- And different sites aswell have different impacts
as you were saying earlier,like different association
with different trauma andfor one group over another
(33:49):
or for one family over another.
So, yeah, respectfullylisten and understand that.
- And it can be a burden.
Because I think too manypeople assume we're going
to have those answersfor you and have them
there and then and now.
We're a collective.
Not one person makes that one decision
(34:11):
and sometimes it'll go backto the board to discuss
and they might meet 'till thenext two weeks, three weeks,
and even then it mightn't be resolved
so then you have to wait longer.
- The next question is, isit an oversimplification
to suggest there is a huge crossover
with caring for country
and environmentally sustainable design?
(34:35):
Or is this an opportunity to leverage
already well-establishedsustainability aspirations
on projects to broaden toinclude caring for country?
- It's a real big thing.
Everything is, every meetingI go to, every tender I'm on,
(34:57):
it's like the eggshell fact.
Everyone goes, "We'vegot to care for country.
How do we put this in our design?
How do we put this with thegreen star indigenous principles
or the green star rating,
caring for country, healing country."
Guess what?
We really can't heal countrybecause she's too fractured.
When we say we cut ourselvesby accident and we go,
(35:19):
"Oh my gosh, what are we going to do?"
You have to get it stitchedup or put a bandaid on it
and after a while they go,
"Look, it's healed."
We go, "Oh yeah, it's back to normal."
Can we do that to country now?
Sadly we can't.
So we have to look at waysof working with country,
our mother, collaborating with our mother,
(35:40):
learning from mother to saythis caring for country needs
to be more sustainable.
Are there projects out therethat are being more sustainable
and using sustainable practises,
meaning working with country?
Yes, there are.
Yes, there are.
They still have a long way to go.
You'd say they're tryingto work with country,
(36:00):
trying to solve some of theissues that we're having,
that we're adding tocountries' woes, so to speak.
So we can talk about simplethings such as the use of colour
and texture within buildings,within houses, et cetera.
Because colours can sometimesgive you that warmth
(36:21):
and that cooling effect.
We can use different types of materials,
but materials that aresourced sustainably.
Over here in Victoria, I noticed
that I always see now a lotof log trucks come through
and I always go, "Oh, my heart aches,"
because we must be cuttingdown so many trees.
Because I've never seenit before in my travels.
And I go, "Oh, sustainable agriculture."
(36:43):
But are we up-cycling material?
Are we reusing material?
You have the use of water,recycled water, rainwater.
And I sit on a few projects, on a project
with Hassell at the moment
where it's not only a cooling effect,
but it also captures therainwater to make rain gardens.
So when we have those big days of rain,
(37:06):
it fills up these beautiful rain wells.
But also, you can have plants in there
that are tolerant to all that.
And then when we havedays without any rain,
it slowly drains out.
So it's utilising recycled rainwater,
but also using therainwater's cooling effects.
Another big thing some companies
(37:28):
and buildings are doingreally well is lighting.
And this is something that weneed to get better at though
because lighting, we tend to be like,
"Everything's up in lights,so many lights everywhere."
And everyone goes, "Oh, yay, wow."
What you've forgotten is itdoes affect migration patterns
of birds and other wildlife,and they're starting
(37:50):
to die out as well because ofall this unnatural lighting.
Have a think about whatcan we do to minimise that,
to even stop it if possible.
Wind, as I said before, wind, we use wind
as a cooling effect aswell within buildings,
within that naturalairflow coming through.
We use the sun wherewe face our buildings,
(38:14):
where we face our plant life,
where we face people in the building.
The sun can play a major role in heating
and in natural lighting.
And the biggest step I thinka lot of people in design
are looking at now isthe use of the roof space
whereas we fly over inMelbourne and other cities
and all we see is these greybuildings and nothing there.
(38:36):
Using roof space, using thesegardens, and using biophilia
to act as cooling, to actas heating as well so,
which is what we used to do.
We used to use whatever wehad around us to keep us warm,
but also to reflect the sun.
And for one project, I know with Hassell,
(38:58):
we did that one trainstation is we put in a sort
of a biodiversity sectionup top of the station
where it was encouraging thegolden sun moth a new habitat
for it because it was dying out,
so it's encouraging it to come back.
And the Bogong moth, which everyone says,
"What's a Bogong moth?"
(39:18):
And I go, "Bogong mothscome from Ngunnawal country,
ACT, comes all the way down to here
and all the way into New South Wales,
was a staple diet andit's been there thousands.
They're not like that anymore.
So we're saying without the biophilia,
without the trees, we startto plant in our designs,
things start to die out.
(39:39):
When you start planting trees and that,
you'll probably notice,oh, I can hear a bird.
We didn't hear birds before.
Oh, wow, we've got cicadas.
Oh, we've got the bees.
It's great because you'regiving them back their homes,
their habitat.
So maybe when we're designingwhat we take from country,
we give back as well.
So we may not be able to dothat within the built form,
(40:02):
but somewhere, we canthen plant more trees,
plant more native, more indigenous plants
that suit the climateto keep country healing,
what you term as healing.
So there are great examples out there.
Passive house is a reallygood one to look at.
(40:23):
And even just smallarchitectural firms doing housing
and now taking advantage of our ways
and how we learned from country,how we lived with country,
coexisted, and putting thatinto their housing now.
Living in caves and stufflike that is just phenomenal,
but taking those ideas ofhow nature provided for you,
(40:45):
cooled you, heated you, that'swhat we should be doing.
Healing country, what you deemas healing country does need
to be number one at all times.
Sustainability needs to benumber one at all times.
They go together.
- Yeah, that is a whole 'nother podcast.
- Mother is talking to us
in so many ways, but onceagain, we're not listening.
(41:07):
In design, when theysay how do we put caring
for country in design, listen to country
with every sense and how dowe make it part of country?
It works with country,it's not going to damage it
any further, what materiality can we use
(41:29):
that can be repurposed.
For example, on one of theprojects out here on the rails,
unfortunately, sometrees had to be cut down.
We go, everyone on that team is fabulous.
We say, "What can we do, Kat?
These are your ancestors."
I go, "They're not mine,but the Wathaurong people."
(41:50):
Some of those trees we repurpose
and built yarning circlesin different areas
where people are coming together
and they're talking now about things.
We hand them back to differentareas as natural habitats.
They're not just, thinkabout what you're doing
before you throw it away.
- A hundred percent I'm agreat believer in no tree
(42:10):
should leave site.
- Thank you, yes.
- It either stays in placeor it even, like you say,
it's habitat, it's mulched.
It then contributes back tothe ecosystem of that place
and will find its wayback into the system.
- I love it.
I love it.
As I said, sustainability never was like
the Mickey Mouse thing.
(42:30):
Now, it's so important in all designs.
We need to find that has to be number one,
how you design, how is it sustainable,
how does it keep thatheartbeat of country going?
- Okay, I think we've gota final question here.
Kat, in your job, you must have lots
(42:51):
of challenging conversations,which we have touched upon
how we can have thesedifferent conversations,
some of them will be challenging.
On topics that have thepotential to get quite heated,
which from my experienceI can say some do,
how can you help us and betterhave these conversations?
(43:11):
But also how to have conversationswith relatives as well
so that we can takeour learnings from you.
There's an old generation out there
who have very different understanding
and around topics like the voice,
which is a prevalent issue right now
and in the forefront of people's minds
and it may be discussedaround the dinner table
(43:32):
on a Sunday afternoon or whatever.
How can we have someof these conversations
and what advice would you give us?
- Yeah, courageous conversations.
Get comfortable being uncomfortable.
I was always taught toalways show respect,
but truth-telling and people,we always say we used to,
(43:54):
our ways were sitting downwhere we faced each other
and we could talk about anything.
You may not get things resolved,
but we speak from the heart as well.
In my role, I have totry to remain factual,
not emotional because I havea cultural role to play,
(44:16):
a business role to play.
And sometimes the two headbuttand it breaks my heart
that sometimes I have to thinkabout business before culture
because culture's so important to me.
When discussing the voice,which comes up a lot,
I always say to people,
it's like anything new people fear change
(44:36):
when they don't understand it
or where they don't havethe facts in front of them.
There's plenty of factualinformation out there
about the voice and what it is.
As I said, I sit back and Igo, sometimes it's hard for me
to understand because we'venever had the opportunity
(44:58):
to say how we feel, theopportunity to manage our lives,
so to speak, and what's important to us
and how it's going to affect us.
So, really, you'realways gonna have people
who will put up that barrier
and the only way I seeforward is be honest,
(45:19):
be truthful, and to beaware that some people
are just not going to understand
and will not vote basedon facts, but on fear.
And that's the hard part.
All through the generationsor the different things.
The first one, referendum 1967
(45:44):
for Aboriginal Torres StraitIslanders being able to vote,
that was just diabolical.
Not all referendums get a voteso we were lucky to get that.
Before that, we were previouslyon the flora and fauna list.
That's what we were called.
We weren't human.
But yeah, it's justkeeping it open and honest.
(46:05):
As I said, it's a hardone, but maybe direct them
to factual informationwhere they can read up
and make that informedchoice for themselves.
But as I said, peoplehave their own opinions,
they're entitled to those rights as well.
- Thank you.
Yeah, I a hundred percentagree in the respect that
yeah, just tell your own truth
(46:26):
and you can't alwayschange somebody else's mind
so read the room (laughs).
- That's in my role (laughs).
You get called a lot, yougot to have thick skin
in what I do, but at the sametime, it's the smallest winds,
the baron bow, the whichmeans many footprints
(46:50):
You've got many footprints,but one big one can change.
- This conversation is also an extension
of the journey we are on as part
of the reconciliationaction plan that we're doing
and part of our commitmentto respectfully listen to,
learn, and advocate forAustralia's first people.
This has been a wonderfulstep on that journey as well,
(47:13):
having this conversation.
I think what some of the things I've taken
from this conversation is truth-telling
and speaking from the heartis something you've just said,
Kat, and that is so important.
And just staying in the room together,
just talking and having the conversation.
(47:33):
And I know we keep usingthat term, just keep talking,
but it's as simple asthat really, isn't it?
- Yep.
- There are complexities toit, and do not get me wrong,
we all understand that.
But the simple takeaway is thatwe should just keep talking
and move forward together.
I would like to make apersonal thank you to Kat
(47:55):
for your generosity and participation
in this incredibly important topic.
So thank you.
- Pleasure.
- And thank you to our listeners,
wherever they might be around the world,
and thank you for their feedbackand all of the questions
that they so kindly sent inprior to our conversation today.
I'm Hannah Galloway andyou've been listening
(48:16):
to an episode of "Hassell Talks".
This episode was produced by Prue Vincent
and myself in collaboration
with Hassell's CulturalEngagement working group.
With particular thanks toRubina Cook, Kirsten Thompson,
Adam Davis and Liam Cridlandfor their time and guidance.
(gentle music)
(birds singing)
(gentle music)
- From global design practise, Hassell,
this is Hassell Talks.
Hi, everyone.
Welcome back to part two of our epic yarn
with First Nationsconsultant, cultural advisor,
and storyteller Kat Rodwell.
I'm Hannah Galloway and Iwould like to acknowledge
(00:25):
and respect the Noongar Whadjak people
and the Wadawarrung peoplethe original custodians
of the land where we record this yarn.
We honour elders past,present, and emerging,
his knowledge and wisdom has
and will ensure the continuation
of cultures and traditional practises.
So this is part two.
If you haven't listened to part one,
(00:45):
I very much recommend that you do.
It's a really bigconversation about listening
and about respect and connection,protocols, engagement,
loss, and the experience of voices
and country not beinglistened to for so long.
Kat also identified ways we can all help
to reduce the overloadTraditional Owner groups
and consultants are feeling.
(01:07):
Do go back, check it out.
If you are already across it, this episode
is where we get into the questions
our listeners have sent in.
There's some reallygreat pointy stuff here,
so let's get back into it.
(gentle music)
So we had a series of questions
that we asked throughour social media channels
(01:31):
before this podcast and recording.
And one of the questions was,what do indigenous people
and communities really want tosee in our built environment?
How do First Nations peoplewant their culture, values,
art and knowledge to betranslated into architecture?
- I'd say it's genuine,cultural, meaningful elements
(01:54):
within the built form and also elements
that contribute to everyone'swell-being and health
because the buildings andstructures become a part
of country, make themlive as part of country
and we want them to represent community,
not the same for everything.
(02:17):
We don't fit into thesame round or square hole.
We are all a different mob, as I said
so don't presume where one groupsays, oh, we are like this,
the other group's gonna be the same.
Make sure it has a connection to country
and it builds curiosity.
(02:38):
It doesn't have to be in your face.
As I said, is it that you can see country,
smell country, feelcountry, touch country?
Those elements, that'sall that has to happen.
That's all they're asking for.
But mainly they want to knowwhat are you doing on country.
What is it you are building on country?
How is country going to change?
(03:00):
Because once you changecountry, it affects us deeply.
And I always say plan out the meetings.
Probably, with me, I have probably four
with the Traditional Owner groups,
the elders on each projectbecause I think after that
it's too much overload.
(03:21):
But we always come withpurpose as well to say what
is it that you really want to know
so that we're not gonna takeup too much of their time?
Ask questions while you are there.
That's why you havefacilitators like myself
to help that conversation and to draw out
what you need to know.
But also you don't have tobe that, I call the unclear,
(03:44):
as I said to you, unclear, everyone seems
to think you've got to haveall the bits and pieces,
all the fang-dangle, whistles,the kid in the candy store.
You don't.
Listen to the stories of country.
It doesn't have to alwayshave a massive yarning circle.
It doesn't always have to have a totem.
It doesn't always have tohave an Aboriginal painting
(04:08):
or anything.
People are still treading on eggshells
about when they'reengaging us, what they can
and can't do and they're afraid to do,
especially with the design.
And I've had a really goodconversation last week
with a couple of elders onwhere you call designing
with country is going?
(04:29):
- And as you say, everyconversation and every situation
is gonna be unique so never presume
that you can have one conversation
and reuse that somewhere else.
We cannot translate.
We are asking for the privilegeof hearing these stories
and showing respect forreceiving the sharing
of stories and knowledge.
(04:51):
We come up with suggestionsand we take those back
and we look for approval on the way
that we are translating andwork through that together.
- Yeah, and you want tobe able to understand it.
For us people sometimes what you may hear
from an elder traditional learner
(05:11):
is not necessarily what they're saying.
This is sometimes where peoplelike myself will come in
and say, well actuallythis is what the story
or the language is whatis being shared with you.
It's like that great dividing cultures
and sometimes language.
Does what you build and the narrative,
(05:33):
is it easy to understand or isit so far out there they go,
that doesn't look like a Murnong?
Murnong is not blue, Murnong's yellow.
We need to be able tounderstand it as well
so it gives respect to culture.
We're not asking for a lot really.
- So, should we do oneof the pointy ones, Kat?
- Yeah, come on, let's do it, yep.
(05:54):
- This next question from online,
a question about the fetishizationof indigenous culture.
The idea that simply because something
is rooted in indigenous culturethat is necessarily good,
better or sustainable.
How do we acknowledgea culturally safe way
that no culture has evergotten everything right
(06:18):
nor ever will do?
- Ooh, I'm looking at theword and really it's saying,
well an unreasonable amountof attention really given
to indigenous culture.
And the thing that stands outin this question is I say,
well, who says we never got it right?
Just because it wasn't written down.
We're oral traditionalistsand some may argue,
(06:42):
well we did get it right.
We lived in harmony, wewere sustainable farming,
sustainable living.
We looked after country,we nourished country.
We only took what we hadto until Captain Crook,
we call him, and fellowexplorers came along
(07:03):
and came onto country and changed country.
And then things started to go pear-shaped,
as you would say it.
That's me being nice.
We had law, we've livedin harmony, and today,
this day and age, maybewe are getting it wrong
(07:25):
as a culture in some ways
because we've lost our cultural ways,
cultural elements from thepast that have disappeared.
We've lost being part ofa community sometimes,
being misinformed, people make mistakes.
So, the question is howdo we acknowledge it
(07:46):
in a culturally safe wayis well, we what together?
We work together and that's how we do it.
So, no one is perfect, there is no expert.
We look at the now and how wecan resolve or solve things.
When we talk about our cultural practises,
(08:09):
a good example would bewe lived off the land
and the waterways, which as Isaid were the giver of life.
These days now becauseof the loss of a lot
of that practise becauseculture has changed
we now go towards a bit ofyour way of agriculture.
(08:29):
- The next question is, whatcorrelation can we bring
between agriculture andnative bush agriculture?
- Country was our chemist.
It was our hospital,it was our supermarket.
And it's really funny howit's all been revived.
This bush medicine, bushtucker is being used in a lot
(08:51):
of ways now and it's being used in ways
of being farmed agriculturally,which is interesting.
That's what I'm saying, the sea asparagus,
which is on, I had a notehere, Konnichiwa county
where it's very high in certain vitamins
(09:12):
and it does taste like asparagus,
it does and you need itin the saltwater areas.
And now we're starting tofarm it Westernised ways.
An indigenous plant thoughsomething that we just used
to pick from the waterways et cetera,
that we're farming it sustainably now.
(09:33):
So the two cultures are coming together
to revive some of our bush medicine,
bush tucker, and being ableto practise their culture
with agriculture andmerging them together.
So it's using the oldways with the new ways,
working with country,with the new climate.
(09:54):
And that's why I said,
it's not giving it unreasonable attention.
We never had the attention,we weren't allowed
to practise culture, but now we can.
So, it's a hard question,but I love it, I love it.
- And I suppose it feeds into that idea
of it's good sometimes tohave hard conversations
(10:18):
and discuss things that are confronting
because that's how weunderstand each other better.
- Oh definitely.
As I said, we were told,"Cover your mouth",
we weren't allowed to say anything.
Now we can.
So, I suppose sometimes someof my people may seem angry
or they may seemconfrontational, but it's not,
(10:38):
it's the passion ofsaying, "Well now our voice
is starting to be heard.
We want to tell you things,we want to share things,
but we also need you toacknowledge the past first".
So, sustainability, we'refabulous at sustainability.
If we weren't, we wouldnever have survived.
(11:01):
But we would need to bringsome of those practises again
to the forefront, and nowso we say with our voice,
we need people to listento us more how we worked
with mother and it's notdesigning with country,
it's learning with country.
- Okay, so another question we've had
(11:22):
is do we lock it in a glass cabinet
or let everyone have a paintbrush?
- I love this one.
- Yes, it's great, isn't it?
It goes on to further sayhow do we balance respect
for cultural heritage and preservation
with enabling an ancientculture to contemporize?
(11:45):
- We are not a museum.
We do not belong in amuseum or behind glass.
We are the oldest livingculture in the world.
It is, as I said before,living cultural heritage.
(12:08):
I'm not saying to give youpaintbrush but to listen,
but we need to grow togetheron this, to still show respect.
You want to do immersion into culture
and have that experience of the immersion.
For it to be in a glasscabinet just means you just get
to look and probably tap on the glass.
(12:29):
For us, the balance is to beable to immerse yourself in
that experience.
Once again, see, hear, touch, smell.
People want to be able tofeel our spiritual connection.
They want to learn more about the history
of our past and our present.
(12:51):
So, putting in a glass cabinet, no.
It just means telling thosestories but at the same time,
showing respect, preserving them as well.
Listen and understandingas we grow together.
And we've got to remembersome of these stories
may change over time because they involve
when more comes forward because I said
(13:13):
other times we weren'tallowed to share our stories.
For example, in the Truth-Tellingtreaty here in Victoria,
stories were emerging about the treatment,
but more stories have beenshared about how we lived,
et cetera, and the culture.
- And I think that statement leads
into the next question quite well
because there is another question,
(13:34):
is posing research or engagement.
These may be conflicting,
how do you progress the design intent?
Is every project case by case?
So in other words,through the conversation
we always find potentiallyas you were saying,
new things and things arebrought to the forefront
(14:00):
through the engagement but how does
that work when it's conflicting?
- Okay, both go together.
Let's just give anexample of this research.
When people want to research something,
let's say they go onto Googleor whatever they may say,
do Aboriginal peoplelike the colour yellow?
So you put that criteria in
(14:21):
and you probably get, yes they do.
Then probably come back
and bring up the Aboriginalflag has yellow in it.
Do Aboriginal people do dot paintings?
Yes, all Aboriginalpeople do dot paintings
normally dot paintings will come up.
But you get a generalisationwhen you do your research
(14:43):
because you're putting in thecriteria you want to know.
When we do the engagement,we're narrowing it down,
getting that firsthand knowledgefrom the Traditional Owner,
from the elder, from community.
It's like saying you'll find what you want
(15:06):
when you do your research,but you'll know more
of the truth and add morerichness by doing the engagement.
Is that narrowing it down?
- One hundred percent and I'd explain it
as well as a designer, if you'retrying to represent place,
(15:28):
then yes you can, I'm in Perth,
then you can create a space or something
that reflects Perth.
But if you engage andyou understand exactly
that specific place in Perth
and as you were talkingearlier about listening
and understanding, deeperunderstanding of that place
and then having the storiesthat relate specifically
(15:51):
to that place, then you'renot gonna learn that
off the internet or research.
You need to have those from...
And it is an oral historyas you noted before
and so without talking and without having
these conversations, we're never gonna
understand the specificnature of the space
(16:12):
that we're designing in.
- Yeah.
So, it's case by case.
As I said, when you talkit outwards, people go,
"Kat, can you do a dot painting?"
I go, "If I hear that one more time,
I'll do a dot painting onyour head in a minute."
Because it's not relevantto Ngunnawal people,
it's not relevant to people in Victoria
(16:34):
where it's more linear lines.
And things like they talk about,
"Oh, you must have this certain gum tree,
you got to have a gum tree here."
And you go, "Well this gum treedid not exist in this place,
in this country."
Or they'll go, "When I go andsee people do presentations
and they put it toTraditional Owners," and I go,
(16:55):
"I wish I'd saw that first."
Because they'll put up apicture of Uluru and I go,
"But we're not there.
Uluru is not in Victoria, I'm sorry."
Or they'll put, what is it?
The Twelve Apostles, theyused to call the Piglets
or something and they'll put it in
And I go, "That is on someoneelse's country, Eastern Maar".
(17:20):
So, it's time, it's placeso we narrow it down
and learn stories of this particular place
from the Traditional Owners,elders, and community.
Definitely, as I said,you type researchers,
you type in what you want tohear, what you want to see.
(17:42):
- I think in projects thatI've worked on before,
it goes down to that level aswell that if you are trying
to represent a place,particularly if you're trying
to help a connection to that space,
if you then bring in stone from China
or you bring in a stonefrom a different country,
(18:04):
it could just be like you say
literally only a few kilometres away,
but it's a different country,then you're not enhancing
and working with developing a connection
to that specific place.
Likewise with plants, ifyou're using native plants,
you could be using a native plant,
but it could be from theother side of the country.
(18:27):
And therefore, to beendemic, to be of place,
we need to be a lot more careful
about how we use our native planting
to be more specific and more endemic
and looking at how we can incorporate
that within our process.
And also, like you say,ask if it's all right
to use a different stone, askif it's okay to bring sand.
(18:51):
We created a dance circle in a project,
a dancing circle forcelebration and coming together
and it also formed a bit ofa yarning circle as well.
And we were looking for theright sand to put in it.
We literally got different bags of sand
and sent it to ourengagement group for them
(19:11):
to feel and touch and we drew a map
to say exactly wherethe sand was coming from
to confirm it was from country,
it was from the rightcountry, the right place
and it had the right texture,it had the right feeling.
I think it's about the levelthat we go to sometimes
in trying to engage andcreate that connection
(19:35):
to place and country, but also the respect
that we go through that process
so even checking themateriality that we are using.
- Thank you.
That is so important becauseby you taking a part of country
and putting it on someone else's country,
you are taking theirancestors off that country,
(19:59):
putting them on someone else's country
and this is what we're tryingto get you to think about.
So, it's as simple as that.
When we say the plants, peoplego, oh, your native plants
and they go be awareyou have native plants,
indigenous plants, so plants that we use.
(20:20):
The country is our chemistit's our supermarket,
it is our university, itis our Bunnings, et cetera.
We only took fromcountry, news from country
because that's our spiritual connection.
When you take it to someoneelse's country, it's hurting us.
Someone said to me in the city,
(20:41):
"Well how do we know what sort of things?"
And I go, one of thebest things you can do
is if you're somewhere
where they're doing a big dig excavation,
go and have a look andsee that how deep it is
and you can see all the different,
you might get to see different ochres,
colours of country in that andwhat it looks like in that,
(21:01):
and gives you a bit of a clueto what to look for as well.
And as I said, ask first, we know a lot
of now our indigenous plantsdo not survive on country
because climate change.
We work together where we get hybrids
or something that's similar.
Sometimes we say isthere a similar colour?
(21:24):
But once again, always ask first
because it's different for each country
and what they expect.
But I like how you're saying,
please ask about bringingfrom another country
what you bring on country.
And we did that for the Werribee,
we sourced boulders from country
and then another projectwe asked permission
so that transport, evenif you get permission,
(21:45):
the transporting shouldbe done respectfully.
- Yeah, and it is, it's about asking,
having that conversation.
There might be a process or a protocol
that you can do to transfer.
It may be a smoking ceremony in regards
to respecting the ancestors from one place
before it's moved to another, et cetera.
We've done that.
(22:05):
I've done on projectsor I haven't done it,
I've witnessed it doneon projects (laughs) here
when transplanting trees thathave just come from one place
to another to help that tree reestablish
because you're taking it, asyou were describing before,
it's rooted in the groundand you're lifting it
(22:28):
and you're moving it and that'sthat spiritual connection
and that ability to bring in a process
that aids in the health of that tree.
But also the health and the connection
and the spiritual connectionfor the Traditional Owners
(22:50):
and the elders that wereinvolved in the project.
- Yeah, and have a think about it,
the in-thing now is todo an indigenous garden
with bush tucker bush medicine,which is what I do a lot of.
But when people ask me todesign one for a project,
I'm always thinking whatis the purpose of it?
(23:10):
Why do you really want one?
For educational, fantastic.
For the new buzzword, what is it?
I can't even think, it wasentertainment with education.
And I was going, "What?"
I'm going, "We don't wantjust to put plants in there
for them to die because that's hurtful".
They want to have apurpose so you don't want
(23:32):
to plant like a hundred chocolate lilies
just because the smell comesevery now and then they go,
"Oh cool", but to have them die.
We are gonna put them whereyou're gonna actually use it.
Is there a cafe or a serverythat they can actually use it?
Is it an educational piecethat people will get to see,
touch, smell, and even taste it.
(23:53):
Don't just bring it on countryjust as a tick box say,
"Look what we've done a nativeor an indigenous planting."
Make sure it's got purpose,
spend money elsewhere on a community.
- There's so many connections I think
that we don't even understand
that isn't even a possibility sometimes
before you start these conversations.
For example, a lot oflocations and sites on country
(24:17):
are sometimes female ormale, you know what I mean?
If you have objects withinthat space, say for example,
I don't know whether it's thesame across the different mobs
as you say, language groups or countries,
a women's site here, ifyou put an emu in that area
would be seen as that's a male symbol,
(24:38):
and a female location thereare different plants as well
that are more associated withwomen's business if you like
because they had medicinalpurposes for women culturally.
So, I think it's about as long
as we're having those conversations,
those things will bediscussed and teased out
and as long as we're sharing our decisions
(25:00):
and our processes and it's about just,
even if you don't think it's something
that somebody might have an interest in,
still talk about it becauseyou'll suddenly find out
that thing that was notrelated to this at all
is totally culturally inappropriate
because it's a male totem
or something within atraditionally women's site.
(25:22):
- Exactly.
This is where we are sayingwhere that open dialogue
and the question of askfirst comes into it.
So, in these co-decide, Isay co-decide design meetings
in those, ask those questions.
Is it okay if we can do this?
If the elders are not toosure, they'll go find out.
(25:43):
That's the whole point ofthat cultural journey you take
with us when we have those sessions.
But you bang on aboutthat, people forget women's
and men's business and howdifferent elements pertain
to culturally similar women's business,
culturally similar men's business
(26:04):
and initiation and everything.
And if you really want to be respectful,
then you need to know a bit more about
what you're putting in there.
Is it gonna be disrespectfulto the culture,
to the people?
You don't want to do that.
So, it's just the simplest things
and people just think it's just a tree.
No, it's not to us or it's just a boulder,
(26:26):
no, it's not just to us.
Different elements have, and every mob
will have something different, ask.
- I've got a couple morequestions I'm gonna read now.
They're taken from I suppose,more of a perspective
of logistics looking throughengagement within a project.
(26:50):
The first one I've got hereis how can we make space
to meaningfully designwith country in the context
of a bed or design competitionwhen often a huge portion
of the design is locked inbefore meaningful engagement
with the Traditional Owners?
Or is this asking too much?
(27:11):
It seems like it shouldn'tbe too much to ask
for some of our biggest, mostimportant public projects.
- Yeah, this comes up a lot
and especially when I'mon tenders and it's hard
because I always say weneed to engage first.
How do you design somethingwhen you don't even know
(27:32):
about country or protocolsor what we can and can't do?
And the timeframes within construction
and infrastructure are just so out there
that there's no room reallyfor proper full-on engagement.
When I'm on a project and itcomes to where they've got
(27:53):
to put a design in beforeyou even have contact
with Traditional Ownersbecause you're not allowed to
for competition phase, it'sbeing able to engage with people
like myself who have been privyto so much beautiful stories
and knowledge of different cultures
of different mob around Australia
where we can give you snippetsof what we've been told
(28:17):
so it's more like a bitof a background first.
It's like that paint by numbers.
We can give you a few ofthose numbers to paint in.
We give that design so thatthe design can be layered
once we have that contact,
that true Traditional Owner engagement
so that things can bebuilt within it as well.
(28:40):
The storylines can be built within it,
certain changes can be built within it
because we understand thatsome of the structure has
to already be in thetender before it even goes
to Traditional Owners.
We get that.
But there's certain things you can add
to give it that cultural narrative,
to give it that cultural input.
(29:02):
- We've also done it ina different way as well
where we've done as an art workshop.
We've invited artistsfor a workshop scenario,
spent a day sharing ideas and talking,
coming up with suggestionsso that there's a plethora
of opportunities evenif it's not necessarily,
(29:26):
you know you're goingto develop it further
through the process and the project.
- Yeah, but make sure you notjust throwing it in at the end
just for the hell of it.
- No, absolutely.
- Yeah, think about how youcan layer your design up
from that and that's whereyou get the paint by numbers,
(29:47):
and in the end you go,oh it's a fruit basket.
Good, now we know whatit was supposed to be.
A friend, an architectural friend said,
"It seems like it speaks to you."
And I go, "It does."
The building or structure willspeak to you what it wants
to become because it's part of country,
it is a living thing on country,
(30:08):
it's an extension of country now.
And that's where sometimespeople fall over,
they just go, "Nope,it's just a structure,
just a building."
It's not, so interesting.
I like that.
That's a good questionand it's really hard
for us people like me to come in to try
to fix some of these things up
because I've come in at a stage
where they've put all the plans in
(30:29):
and had no engagement whatsoever
and they've gone, "Oh crap."
And I go, "It's okay, you've now admitted
that yeah, we haven't done it.
Let's put that to the past.
Let's work out how we can move forward
and give some respect to yourstructure, to your building."
And there's always away so just don't think,
(30:51):
"Oh, we haven't done it,we're not gonna do it."
Please still engage.
- The next question we hadis very similar when it comes
to listening to Australia'sFirst Nations people
and fostering genuine engagement
towards advancing reconciliation efforts,
the phrase, nothing about us without us,
(31:14):
is important to remember,practise and embrace.
However, this place is quite a burden
on First Nations people.
A big ask for less than4% of the population.
How can non-indigenous listenersbetter respect the time,
energy, culture, and traditionof First Nations people
on the journey to voice,treaty, and truth?
(31:38):
- Once again, ask first.
Think laterally and in a partnership way,
and this is somethingthat always comes through.
Oh, I suppose not every communitywill want to participate.
We must be respectful.
(31:58):
Remember our knowledge has been lost
and we're starting toregain, retell, and share.
When I say not everyonewants to participate
because it brings up the traumaagain of the past sometimes
and not all want to engage, to share that
because there are somestories and cultural elements
(32:20):
that in our culture we don'tshare, not even with other mob.
Sometimes as you said, we share things
with women within our mob,women's business only.
Sometimes the men willshare men's things with men
so when it comes to howdo we respectfully listen
(32:43):
and about that raw truth and treaty,
give us the time tovoice what we want to say
because we haven't hadthat before, to listen.
And as I said, listeningis not just with your ears
and sometimes you brought up before,
it's not gonna take 30 minutes to an hour.
(33:05):
Sometimes it may takemonths to really understand
and get that truth-telling and the voice
and the treaty to come through.
We didn't have that theclock to tell us when,
those timeframes.
We sat down and it couldhave been for days,
(33:26):
for months 'till things were resolved.
Some things never get resolved.
Different mobs, different elders
have different experiences to share.
- And different sites aswell have different impacts
as you were saying earlier,like different association
with different trauma andfor one group over another
(33:49):
or for one family over another.
So, yeah, respectfullylisten and understand that.
- And it can be a burden.
Because I think too manypeople assume we're going
to have those answersfor you and have them
there and then and now.
We're a collective.
Not one person makes that one decision
(34:11):
and sometimes it'll go backto the board to discuss
and they might meet 'till thenext two weeks, three weeks,
and even then it mightn't be resolved
so then you have to wait longer.
- The next question is, isit an oversimplification
to suggest there is a huge crossover
with caring for country
and environmentally sustainable design?
(34:35):
Or is this an opportunity to leverage
already well-establishedsustainability aspirations
on projects to broaden toinclude caring for country?
- It's a real big thing.
Everything is, every meetingI go to, every tender I'm on,
(34:57):
it's like the eggshell fact.
Everyone goes, "We'vegot to care for country.
How do we put this in our design?
How do we put this with thegreen star indigenous principles
or the green star rating,
caring for country, healing country."
Guess what?
We really can't heal countrybecause she's too fractured.
When we say we cut ourselvesby accident and we go,
(35:19):
"Oh my gosh, what are we going to do?"
You have to get it stitchedup or put a bandaid on it
and after a while they go,
"Look, it's healed."
We go, "Oh yeah, it's back to normal."
Can we do that to country now?
Sadly we can't.
So we have to look at waysof working with country,
our mother, collaborating with our mother,
(35:40):
learning from mother to saythis caring for country needs
to be more sustainable.
Are there projects out therethat are being more sustainable
and using sustainable practises,
meaning working with country?
Yes, there are.
Yes, there are.
They still have a long way to go.
You'd say they're tryingto work with country,
(36:00):
trying to solve some of theissues that we're having,
that we're adding tocountries' woes, so to speak.
So we can talk about simplethings such as the use of colour
and texture within buildings,within houses, et cetera.
Because colours can sometimesgive you that warmth
(36:21):
and that cooling effect.
We can use different types of materials,
but materials that aresourced sustainably.
Over here in Victoria, I noticed
that I always see now a lotof log trucks come through
and I always go, "Oh, my heart aches,"
because we must be cuttingdown so many trees.
Because I've never seenit before in my travels.
And I go, "Oh, sustainable agriculture."
(36:43):
But are we up-cycling material?
Are we reusing material?
You have the use of water,recycled water, rainwater.
And I sit on a few projects, on a project
with Hassell at the moment
where it's not only a cooling effect,
but it also captures therainwater to make rain gardens.
So when we have those big days of rain,
(37:06):
it fills up these beautiful rain wells.
But also, you can have plants in there
that are tolerant to all that.
And then when we havedays without any rain,
it slowly drains out.
So it's utilising recycled rainwater,
but also using therainwater's cooling effects.
Another big thing some companies
(37:28):
and buildings are doingreally well is lighting.
And this is something that weneed to get better at though
because lighting, we tend to be like,
"Everything's up in lights,so many lights everywhere."
And everyone goes, "Oh, yay, wow."
What you've forgotten is itdoes affect migration patterns
of birds and other wildlife,and they're starting
(37:50):
to die out as well because ofall this unnatural lighting.
Have a think about whatcan we do to minimise that,
to even stop it if possible.
Wind, as I said before, wind, we use wind
as a cooling effect aswell within buildings,
within that naturalairflow coming through.
We use the sun wherewe face our buildings,
(38:14):
where we face our plant life,
where we face people in the building.
The sun can play a major role in heating
and in natural lighting.
And the biggest step I thinka lot of people in design
are looking at now isthe use of the roof space
whereas we fly over inMelbourne and other cities
and all we see is these greybuildings and nothing there.
(38:36):
Using roof space, using thesegardens, and using biophilia
to act as cooling, to actas heating as well so,
which is what we used to do.
We used to use whatever wehad around us to keep us warm,
but also to reflect the sun.
And for one project, I know with Hassell,
(38:58):
we did that one trainstation is we put in a sort
of a biodiversity sectionup top of the station
where it was encouraging thegolden sun moth a new habitat
for it because it was dying out,
so it's encouraging it to come back.
And the Bogong moth, which everyone says,
"What's a Bogong moth?"
(39:18):
And I go, "Bogong mothscome from Ngunnawal country,
ACT, comes all the way down to here
and all the way into New South Wales,
was a staple diet andit's been there thousands.
They're not like that anymore.
So we're saying without the biophilia,
without the trees, we startto plant in our designs,
things start to die out.
(39:39):
When you start planting trees and that,
you'll probably notice,oh, I can hear a bird.
We didn't hear birds before.
Oh, wow, we've got cicadas.
Oh, we've got the bees.
It's great because you'regiving them back their homes,
their habitat.
So maybe when we're designingwhat we take from country,
we give back as well.
So we may not be able to dothat within the built form,
(40:02):
but somewhere, we canthen plant more trees,
plant more native, more indigenous plants
that suit the climateto keep country healing,
what you term as healing.
So there are great examples out there.
Passive house is a reallygood one to look at.
(40:23):
And even just smallarchitectural firms doing housing
and now taking advantage of our ways
and how we learned from country,how we lived with country,
coexisted, and putting thatinto their housing now.
Living in caves and stufflike that is just phenomenal,
but taking those ideas ofhow nature provided for you,
(40:45):
cooled you, heated you, that'swhat we should be doing.
Healing country, what you deemas healing country does need
to be number one at all times.
Sustainability needs to benumber one at all times.
They go together.
- Yeah, that is a whole 'nother podcast.
- Mother is talking to us
in so many ways, but onceagain, we're not listening.
(41:07):
In design, when theysay how do we put caring
for country in design, listen to country
with every sense and how dowe make it part of country?
It works with country,it's not going to damage it
any further, what materiality can we use
(41:29):
that can be repurposed.
For example, on one of theprojects out here on the rails,
unfortunately, sometrees had to be cut down.
We go, everyone on that team is fabulous.
We say, "What can we do, Kat?
These are your ancestors."
I go, "They're not mine,but the Wathaurong people."
(41:50):
Some of those trees we repurpose
and built yarning circlesin different areas
where people are coming together
and they're talking now about things.
We hand them back to differentareas as natural habitats.
They're not just, thinkabout what you're doing
before you throw it away.
- A hundred percent I'm agreat believer in no tree
(42:10):
should leave site.
- Thank you, yes.
- It either stays in placeor it even, like you say,
it's habitat, it's mulched.
It then contributes back tothe ecosystem of that place
and will find its wayback into the system.
- I love it.
I love it.
As I said, sustainability never was like
the Mickey Mouse thing.
(42:30):
Now, it's so important in all designs.
We need to find that has to be number one,
how you design, how is it sustainable,
how does it keep thatheartbeat of country going?
- Okay, I think we've gota final question here.
Kat, in your job, you must have lots
(42:51):
of challenging conversations,which we have touched upon
how we can have thesedifferent conversations,
some of them will be challenging.
On topics that have thepotential to get quite heated,
which from my experienceI can say some do,
how can you help us and betterhave these conversations?
(43:11):
But also how to have conversationswith relatives as well
so that we can takeour learnings from you.
There's an old generation out there
who have very different understanding
and around topics like the voice,
which is a prevalent issue right now
and in the forefront of people's minds
and it may be discussedaround the dinner table
(43:32):
on a Sunday afternoon or whatever.
How can we have someof these conversations
and what advice would you give us?
- Yeah, courageous conversations.
Get comfortable being uncomfortable.
I was always taught toalways show respect,
but truth-telling and people,we always say we used to,
(43:54):
our ways were sitting downwhere we faced each other
and we could talk about anything.
You may not get things resolved,
but we speak from the heart as well.
In my role, I have totry to remain factual,
not emotional because I havea cultural role to play,
(44:16):
a business role to play.
And sometimes the two headbuttand it breaks my heart
that sometimes I have to thinkabout business before culture
because culture's so important to me.
When discussing the voice,which comes up a lot,
I always say to people,
it's like anything new people fear change
(44:36):
when they don't understand it
or where they don't havethe facts in front of them.
There's plenty of factualinformation out there
about the voice and what it is.
As I said, I sit back and Igo, sometimes it's hard for me
to understand because we'venever had the opportunity
(44:58):
to say how we feel, theopportunity to manage our lives,
so to speak, and what's important to us
and how it's going to affect us.
So, really, you'realways gonna have people
who will put up that barrier
and the only way I seeforward is be honest,
(45:19):
be truthful, and to beaware that some people
are just not going to understand
and will not vote basedon facts, but on fear.
And that's the hard part.
All through the generationsor the different things.
The first one, referendum 1967
(45:44):
for Aboriginal Torres StraitIslanders being able to vote,
that was just diabolical.
Not all referendums get a voteso we were lucky to get that.
Before that, we were previouslyon the flora and fauna list.
That's what we were called.
We weren't human.
But yeah, it's justkeeping it open and honest.
(46:05):
As I said, it's a hardone, but maybe direct them
to factual informationwhere they can read up
and make that informedchoice for themselves.
But as I said, peoplehave their own opinions,
they're entitled to those rights as well.
- Thank you.
Yeah, I a hundred percentagree in the respect that
yeah, just tell your own truth
(46:26):
and you can't alwayschange somebody else's mind
so read the room (laughs).
- That's in my role (laughs).
You get called a lot, yougot to have thick skin
in what I do, but at the sametime, it's the smallest winds,
the baron bow, the whichmeans many footprints
(46:50):
You've got many footprints,but one big one can change.
- This conversation is also an extension
of the journey we are on as part
of the reconciliationaction plan that we're doing
and part of our commitmentto respectfully listen to,
learn, and advocate forAustralia's first people.
This has been a wonderfulstep on that journey as well,
(47:13):
having this conversation.
I think what some of the things I've taken
from this conversation is truth-telling
and speaking from the heartis something you've just said,
Kat, and that is so important.
And just staying in the room together,
just talking and having the conversation.
(47:33):
And I know we keep usingthat term, just keep talking,
but it's as simple asthat really, isn't it?
- Yep.
- There are complexities toit, and do not get me wrong,
we all understand that.
But the simple takeaway is thatwe should just keep talking
and move forward together.
I would like to make apersonal thank you to Kat
(47:55):
for your generosity and participation
in this incredibly important topic.
So thank you.
- Pleasure.
- And thank you to our listeners,
wherever they might be around the world,
and thank you for their feedbackand all of the questions
that they so kindly sent inprior to our conversation today.
I'm Hannah Galloway andyou've been listening
(48:16):
to an episode of "Hassell Talks".
This episode was produced by Prue Vincent
and myself in collaboration
with Hassell's CulturalEngagement working group.
With particular thanks toRubina Cook, Kirsten Thompson,
Adam Davis and Liam Cridlandfor their time and guidance.
(gentle music)
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.