February 21, 2025 • 15 mins
Health Affairs' Jeff Byers welcomes Senior Editor Kathleen Haddad back to the program to discuss two recent reports exploring the impacts of private equity on the US health care system.
Health Affairs published an ahead-of-print article from Michelle S. Rockwell and coauthors exploring demographic variation in COVID-19-associated outpatient hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin use and spending throughout the public health emergency.
Also, join a live recording of A Health Podyssey on March 12 featuring Rob Lott and Yashaswini Singh discussing her recent paper on the effect of private equity on physician turnover. Register for the live taping here.
Related Articles:
- HHS Releases Report on Consolidation and Private Equity (PE) in Health Care Markets
- FTC retains stricter merger guidelines under Trump (Healthcare Dive)
- REPORT: Profits Over Patients: The Harmful Effects of Private Equity on the U.S. Health Care System
- REPORT: HHS Consolidation in Health Care Markets RFI Response
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jeff Byers (00:08):
Hello and welcome to Health Affairs This Week. I'm
your host, Jeff Byers. We'rerecording on 02/19/2025. It's
snowing here in Richmond,Virginia. We'll see how long
that lasts, before this winterkeeps on giving.
Before we begin, I wanna pointlisteners to the fact that we
released a new ahead of printarticle for the March 2025 issue
(00:33):
on demographic variation in USoutpatient drug use such as
ivermectin during the COVIDnineteen pandemic. And also a
quick heads up, on March 12, weare going to do a live taping
for a health policy with, yourhost Rob Lott on March 12. Rob
will chat with Yasha SweeneySingh on her upcoming paper in
(00:55):
the March issue of HealthAffairs. Again, that's on March
12. And the paper is on privateequities effect in health care.
And, you know, when it when itsnows, it pours. And here to
discuss private equity in healthcare, I'm joined by, Kathleen
Haddad. Kathleen, welcome back.
Kathleen Haddad (01:13):
Hi, Jeff. Nice to be here.
Jeff Byers (01:15):
Yeah. Thanks for joining. Yeah. As as I
mentioned, when it when itsnows, it pours. So, there's
been a lot about private equityin the health care space for for
a very long time, not just thisweek or the past couple of
months.
And I don't know about you, butwhen you hear something or when
a lot of people are talkingabout the same thing, in
different formats, I can get youcan get, sources a little
(01:37):
jumbled up. Does that everhappen to you?
Kathleen Haddad (01:39):
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And, looking at the
reports we're planning to talkabout today, there's so much
good stuff in each of them, andthen I forget which one said
what. But since they both playsimilar things, I'm not sure
that matters too much.
Jeff Byers (01:54):
Yeah. Yeah. So we today are gonna talk about two
reports that came out around thesame time from each other, maybe
a week from each other thatlooked into the role of private
equity in health care space. Sowhen we decided we were gonna do
this episode on these reports, Iactually thought there was only
one report. And then as I was,diving into the details, turns
(02:16):
out there is not one but two,and I'm sure there's more
reports on this elsewhere.
But we're gonna be talking aboutone was a bipartisan staff
report, and another was a reportin response to a request for
information on consolidation inhealth care. Both were released
in January 2025. And accordingto our notes, they were released
(02:38):
within a week from each other,which is kinda confusing. And so
let's look at the HHS reportfirst, which culminates a year
long investigation and reviewedmore than 2,000 comments.
Kathleen, what's the top linehere?
Kathleen Haddad (02:51):
So this report was issued by HHS and also DOJ
and the Federal TradeCommission. The purpose was to
inform actions these agenciescould take to improve
competition in health care. Soit's good to know that, a a slew
of research now has shown thatprivate equity owned practices,
(03:13):
hospitals, nursing homes,etcetera, charge more, offer
lower quality of care, and limitaccess. And so this report
summarized and categorizedthousands of comments that they
received focusing on the trendsand some solutions that might be
considered in the future.
Jeff Byers (03:32):
Yeah. And just to note, we're talking about
private equity, but also thereis that kind of dovetail topic
of consolidation in health care.So interested to note that
private equity owned practicesand hospitals were were flagged
in this. So the report notedfive major themes. Can quickly
you go over what those are forour listeners?
Kathleen Haddad (03:51):
Sure, Jeff. The the issue, with private equity
is that seems to be the majordriver, the major investor, and
that ends up consolidatinghealthcare in addition to,
hospitals in the past, you know,hospitals had been buying
practices. And, but right nowthe, the focus of these reports
is mostly on private equitygenerated consolidation. So the
(04:13):
the themes quickly, one,consolidation leads to higher
prices and less access forpatients, lower quality. Third
theme, it changes the workenvironment for providers, and
physicians have some mixedreactions about that.
Fourth theme was that PEtransactions are shrouded in
darkness, sort of like when theBaltimore Colts moved to
(04:36):
Indianapolis in the dead ofnight. If anyone remembers that
people don't like Put a bandplate on. People don't like
health insurers is the fifththeme. That's not so not news,
but that applies, especially thereport said to vertically
integrated insurers, such asUnitedHealthcare would be an
(04:57):
example. They, own their own theinsurance component, and then
they buy providers and they earnmoney based on both the coverage
and health care decisions.
So that's a new phenomenon thatwas mentioned.
Jeff Byers (05:11):
Yeah. And I don't think, these themes should be
much surprised to people thatfollow this, topic within a
scholarly journal. I know healthaffairs has published a fair
amount of papers on privateequity and its influence on the
health care costs and andutilization. So what is it about
private equity owned health carethat causes this?
Kathleen Haddad (05:32):
So, PE firms, as you know, buy practices, but
they also buy practicemanagement firms. They buy
emergency department physiciangroups, anesthesia physician
groups, hospitals, nursinghomes. The operating companies
that operate hospital andnursing homes, and the real
estate investment trusts thatbuy the property upon which
(05:53):
hospitals and nursing homes sit.And they do this so that they
can evade, it's a bit of apejorative term, but so they can
get best tax benefit by kind ofseparating all these pieces from
the actual hospital entity ornursing home entity. And so what
happens is when a PE providercomes in, in the case of a
(06:16):
provider practice, it's a littlesimpler.
They will cut the cost, so buyone one practice, let's say a
dermatology practice in amarket, cut costs there by
using, lower credentialed staff,you know, LPNs instead of
registered nurses, for example,PAs instead of doctors. Take out
(06:38):
debt based on the asset theyjust acquired to buy other
practices in the market. So the,practice is saddled with debt or
hospital or in the case it maybe. And then they sell the
consolidated practice, you know,they buy up all these other
practices. They control themarket rate prices, rise, and
then they usually sell that infour to seven years and go on to
(07:01):
the next venture.
So it's easy to see howpractices can charge higher
prices and offer the mostprofitable services, and drop
less profitable services. Ithink one example is really
helpful in the agency reportunder the quality theme. The
American College of EmergencyPhysicians shared results from a
(07:22):
questionnaire of its members.And 53% of those, emergency docs
said their medical decisionmaking authority autonomy was
curtailed following the mergeracquisition. There was pressure
to take shortcuts and giveinappropriate and potentially
harmful care in quotes.
And they were guided to meetprofit driven metrics and said
(07:45):
patients, quote, are treated asnumbers rather than individuals,
and that care is no longerpatient centered but metric
centered. The same survey saidthat these e ED physicians saw
wage reductions of 20%.
Jeff Byers (07:58):
So the theme that provider consolidation leads to,
higher prices and less accessfor patients also showed up in
the other report commissionedby, Rhode Island senator Sheldon
White house and also ChuckGrassley, who is in a state I'm
not, don't have off the top ofmy head in the senate.
Kathleen Haddad (08:17):
I think it's Iowa.
Jeff Byers (08:18):
Iowa. Okay. I was gonna go with Arizona, but so
I'm glad I I didn't bet on that.You you know, I lived in Rhode
Island for, four years. So, youknow I gotta give it up to
Sheldon.
Yep. What was the top line ofthat report, though?
Kathleen Haddad (08:34):
Well, that was interesting. I think an
important thing about ChuckGrassley is he's a Republican,
and this is a bipartisan report.So, that's useful. The report
dug up the financial andoperating records from two
prominent PE firms, LeonardGreen Partners out of Los
Angeles, and, Apollo, which isthe largest owner of rural
(08:55):
hospitals in The US. The reportfound that PE ownership led to
understaffing, unsafe buildingconditions, hospital closures,
declining quality, andunsustainable debt.
Jeff Byers (09:07):
You mentioned the lack of transparency was a
theme. What do you mean?
Kathleen Haddad (09:11):
Yeah. That was one of the themes. PE acquired
health care providers aredivided into all these various
entities, and the ownershipstructures are very complex.
There aren't too many laws orregulations that require these
people or these owners or thesecompanies, entities with equity
stakes, in any of thesecompanies to be made public. So
(09:33):
not only do patients not knowwho owns their physicians, but
many of the physicians andclinicians don't know who they
work for.
I remember, one time going tomy, internist and asking him,
who owns this practice anyway?And he was a little cagey and
said, well, we did, use a aninvestment firm and they owned
(09:58):
something for a while, and thenwe did something else. And until
this day, I don't know who ownsit.
Jeff Byers (10:05):
They didn't they didn't send it on the put it on
the bill?
Kathleen Haddad (10:07):
No. There are different names on the bills.
Jeff Byers (10:13):
Okay. So what can be done about this?
Kathleen Haddad (10:16):
So both reports land on similar solutions. These
include greater transparency ofownership, lowering the dollar
threshold of the value ofacquisitions that have to be
reported to the FTC andforbidding noncompete clauses in
provider contracts with theirowners. The agency report,
(10:37):
recommended adoption of a rulethat similar to the one adopted
last year for nursing homes, andthat rule requires nursing homes
to report all owners to CMS andbe made public. The reasoning is
that this allows regulators, notonly regulators, to hold PE
owners accountable, but allowsthe public to choose providers
(10:58):
based on ownership and evenrelated criteria such as
staffing ratios and adverseincidents if these were included
in a public facing report. Andthere is, advocacy for that as
well.
Jeff Byers (11:13):
So what's the likelihood of any solutions
being adopted in the currentpolitical environment?
Kathleen Haddad (11:18):
Well, Jeff, that's a good question. One of
the, reports contained a link topresident Biden's anti
competition policy that, he,issued in 2023. So when I went
to the link, I found four zerofour, a page not found.
Jeff Byers (11:37):
Yeah. Well, do you do you wanna know, some breaking
news Yes. That will be sale bythe time this publishes?
Kathleen Haddad (11:43):
Yes. Yes. Go for it.
Jeff Byers (11:45):
I got a report from HealthCareDive that FTC this is
the headline. FTC retainsstricter merger guidelines under
Trump, with lead up text sayingFTC chair Andrew Ferguson sent a
memo to agency staff on Tuesdayclarifying that the Biden era
(12:06):
guidelines will remain in placefor now in a setback for health
care mergers. Becca Piper wrotethat who I think she's gonna
join us in a couple of weeks,so, please don't sue me. And I
have not read the rest of thearticle.
Kathleen Haddad (12:21):
Well, that's interesting news, Jeff. There
soon will be a Trump appointedmajority on that commission, but
if the chair is stating this andstays with this policy, that's
good news for competition inhealth care. Another piece of
good news is that the state'sattorneys general have authority
(12:42):
to regulate mergers andacquisitions as well, and some
are doing so. States are passinglaws to empower broader
regulation of m and a activityas well.
Jeff Byers (12:52):
Yeah. Yeah. It will be interesting to see because I
think that was, this antitrustguy. I think there was a big
question mark from what I gatherof, people wondering what kind
of line the the new Trumpadministration will take. So
this it's an interestingsignpost of what potentially
could come.
But then, you know, you actuallystill have to go through the,
(13:13):
you know, blocking mergers andand acquisitions kinda activity.
So we'll we'll see what happens.
Kathleen Haddad (13:18):
Right. And they have to have the enough staff to
do the reviews. I'm I think Ithink right now, the dollar
threshold for reviews is ahundred and 25,000,000, the
value of a of an acquisition.And that's that when it gets
that to that level, they have tobe reported to the FTC. But
we'll we'll see.
We'll see.
Jeff Byers (13:39):
Yeah. We'll see. Well, nice to have some news to
to dovetail with this with inthe addition to, breaking down
the the two reports. I think youwe mentioned off mic. You you
mentioned one of the reports is,like, a pretty nice qualitative
study.
Is that right?
Kathleen Haddad (13:53):
Yeah. It it it it was not it was easy to read.
It's the agency report.
Jeff Byers (13:59):
Alright. Well, we're not playing favorites. We'll put
both in the show notes, and you,the listener, can check those
out. Kathleen, thanks for forjoining us today on Health Pairs
This Week.
Kathleen Haddad (14:08):
Yeah. That's what we are, and I'm glad glad
to have been with you, Jeff.
Jeff Byers (14:13):
Yeah. And to you, the listener, thanks for
listening. If, you enjoyed theshow, please, leave a review. It
helps people find the show, andwe want to continue making the
show for you. So anything thatyou can do to help, people find
the show would be great.
For instance, send it to theregulator in your life and or or
(14:34):
the venture capitalists. Eitherone would do it. Venture
capitalists. Send it to venturecapitalists. And with that,
we'll see you next week.
Hello and welcome to Health Affairs This Week. I'm
your host, Jeff Byers. We'rerecording on 02/19/2025. It's
snowing here in Richmond,Virginia. We'll see how long
that lasts, before this winterkeeps on giving.
Before we begin, I wanna pointlisteners to the fact that we
released a new ahead of printarticle for the March 2025 issue
(00:33):
on demographic variation in USoutpatient drug use such as
ivermectin during the COVIDnineteen pandemic. And also a
quick heads up, on March 12, weare going to do a live taping
for a health policy with, yourhost Rob Lott on March 12. Rob
will chat with Yasha SweeneySingh on her upcoming paper in
(00:55):
the March issue of HealthAffairs. Again, that's on March
12. And the paper is on privateequities effect in health care.
And, you know, when it when itsnows, it pours. And here to
discuss private equity in healthcare, I'm joined by, Kathleen
Haddad. Kathleen, welcome back.
Kathleen Haddad (01:13):
Hi, Jeff. Nice to be here.
Jeff Byers (01:15):
Yeah. Thanks for joining. Yeah. As as I
mentioned, when it when itsnows, it pours. So, there's
been a lot about private equityin the health care space for for
a very long time, not just thisweek or the past couple of
months.
And I don't know about you, butwhen you hear something or when
a lot of people are talkingabout the same thing, in
different formats, I can get youcan get, sources a little
(01:37):
jumbled up. Does that everhappen to you?
Kathleen Haddad (01:39):
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And, looking at the
reports we're planning to talkabout today, there's so much
good stuff in each of them, andthen I forget which one said
what. But since they both playsimilar things, I'm not sure
that matters too much.
Jeff Byers (01:54):
Yeah. Yeah. So we today are gonna talk about two
reports that came out around thesame time from each other, maybe
a week from each other thatlooked into the role of private
equity in health care space. Sowhen we decided we were gonna do
this episode on these reports, Iactually thought there was only
one report. And then as I was,diving into the details, turns
(02:16):
out there is not one but two,and I'm sure there's more
reports on this elsewhere.
But we're gonna be talking aboutone was a bipartisan staff
report, and another was a reportin response to a request for
information on consolidation inhealth care. Both were released
in January 2025. And accordingto our notes, they were released
(02:38):
within a week from each other,which is kinda confusing. And so
let's look at the HHS reportfirst, which culminates a year
long investigation and reviewedmore than 2,000 comments.
Kathleen, what's the top linehere?
Kathleen Haddad (02:51):
So this report was issued by HHS and also DOJ
and the Federal TradeCommission. The purpose was to
inform actions these agenciescould take to improve
competition in health care. Soit's good to know that, a a slew
of research now has shown thatprivate equity owned practices,
(03:13):
hospitals, nursing homes,etcetera, charge more, offer
lower quality of care, and limitaccess. And so this report
summarized and categorizedthousands of comments that they
received focusing on the trendsand some solutions that might be
considered in the future.
Jeff Byers (03:32):
Yeah. And just to note, we're talking about
private equity, but also thereis that kind of dovetail topic
of consolidation in health care.So interested to note that
private equity owned practicesand hospitals were were flagged
in this. So the report notedfive major themes. Can quickly
you go over what those are forour listeners?
Kathleen Haddad (03:51):
Sure, Jeff. The the issue, with private equity
is that seems to be the majordriver, the major investor, and
that ends up consolidatinghealthcare in addition to,
hospitals in the past, you know,hospitals had been buying
practices. And, but right nowthe, the focus of these reports
is mostly on private equitygenerated consolidation. So the
(04:13):
the themes quickly, one,consolidation leads to higher
prices and less access forpatients, lower quality. Third
theme, it changes the workenvironment for providers, and
physicians have some mixedreactions about that.
Fourth theme was that PEtransactions are shrouded in
darkness, sort of like when theBaltimore Colts moved to
(04:36):
Indianapolis in the dead ofnight. If anyone remembers that
people don't like Put a bandplate on. People don't like
health insurers is the fifththeme. That's not so not news,
but that applies, especially thereport said to vertically
integrated insurers, such asUnitedHealthcare would be an
(04:57):
example. They, own their own theinsurance component, and then
they buy providers and they earnmoney based on both the coverage
and health care decisions.
So that's a new phenomenon thatwas mentioned.
Jeff Byers (05:11):
Yeah. And I don't think, these themes should be
much surprised to people thatfollow this, topic within a
scholarly journal. I know healthaffairs has published a fair
amount of papers on privateequity and its influence on the
health care costs and andutilization. So what is it about
private equity owned health carethat causes this?
Kathleen Haddad (05:32):
So, PE firms, as you know, buy practices, but
they also buy practicemanagement firms. They buy
emergency department physiciangroups, anesthesia physician
groups, hospitals, nursinghomes. The operating companies
that operate hospital andnursing homes, and the real
estate investment trusts thatbuy the property upon which
(05:53):
hospitals and nursing homes sit.And they do this so that they
can evade, it's a bit of apejorative term, but so they can
get best tax benefit by kind ofseparating all these pieces from
the actual hospital entity ornursing home entity. And so what
happens is when a PE providercomes in, in the case of a
(06:16):
provider practice, it's a littlesimpler.
They will cut the cost, so buyone one practice, let's say a
dermatology practice in amarket, cut costs there by
using, lower credentialed staff,you know, LPNs instead of
registered nurses, for example,PAs instead of doctors. Take out
(06:38):
debt based on the asset theyjust acquired to buy other
practices in the market. So the,practice is saddled with debt or
hospital or in the case it maybe. And then they sell the
consolidated practice, you know,they buy up all these other
practices. They control themarket rate prices, rise, and
then they usually sell that infour to seven years and go on to
(07:01):
the next venture.
So it's easy to see howpractices can charge higher
prices and offer the mostprofitable services, and drop
less profitable services. Ithink one example is really
helpful in the agency reportunder the quality theme. The
American College of EmergencyPhysicians shared results from a
(07:22):
questionnaire of its members.And 53% of those, emergency docs
said their medical decisionmaking authority autonomy was
curtailed following the mergeracquisition. There was pressure
to take shortcuts and giveinappropriate and potentially
harmful care in quotes.
And they were guided to meetprofit driven metrics and said
(07:45):
patients, quote, are treated asnumbers rather than individuals,
and that care is no longerpatient centered but metric
centered. The same survey saidthat these e ED physicians saw
wage reductions of 20%.
Jeff Byers (07:58):
So the theme that provider consolidation leads to,
higher prices and less accessfor patients also showed up in
the other report commissionedby, Rhode Island senator Sheldon
White house and also ChuckGrassley, who is in a state I'm
not, don't have off the top ofmy head in the senate.
Kathleen Haddad (08:17):
I think it's Iowa.
Jeff Byers (08:18):
Iowa. Okay. I was gonna go with Arizona, but so
I'm glad I I didn't bet on that.You you know, I lived in Rhode
Island for, four years. So, youknow I gotta give it up to
Sheldon.
Yep. What was the top line ofthat report, though?
Kathleen Haddad (08:34):
Well, that was interesting. I think an
important thing about ChuckGrassley is he's a Republican,
and this is a bipartisan report.So, that's useful. The report
dug up the financial andoperating records from two
prominent PE firms, LeonardGreen Partners out of Los
Angeles, and, Apollo, which isthe largest owner of rural
(08:55):
hospitals in The US. The reportfound that PE ownership led to
understaffing, unsafe buildingconditions, hospital closures,
declining quality, andunsustainable debt.
Jeff Byers (09:07):
You mentioned the lack of transparency was a
theme. What do you mean?
Kathleen Haddad (09:11):
Yeah. That was one of the themes. PE acquired
health care providers aredivided into all these various
entities, and the ownershipstructures are very complex.
There aren't too many laws orregulations that require these
people or these owners or thesecompanies, entities with equity
stakes, in any of thesecompanies to be made public. So
(09:33):
not only do patients not knowwho owns their physicians, but
many of the physicians andclinicians don't know who they
work for.
I remember, one time going tomy, internist and asking him,
who owns this practice anyway?And he was a little cagey and
said, well, we did, use a aninvestment firm and they owned
(09:58):
something for a while, and thenwe did something else. And until
this day, I don't know who ownsit.
Jeff Byers (10:05):
They didn't they didn't send it on the put it on
the bill?
Kathleen Haddad (10:07):
No. There are different names on the bills.
Jeff Byers (10:13):
Okay. So what can be done about this?
Kathleen Haddad (10:16):
So both reports land on similar solutions. These
include greater transparency ofownership, lowering the dollar
threshold of the value ofacquisitions that have to be
reported to the FTC andforbidding noncompete clauses in
provider contracts with theirowners. The agency report,
(10:37):
recommended adoption of a rulethat similar to the one adopted
last year for nursing homes, andthat rule requires nursing homes
to report all owners to CMS andbe made public. The reasoning is
that this allows regulators, notonly regulators, to hold PE
owners accountable, but allowsthe public to choose providers
(10:58):
based on ownership and evenrelated criteria such as
staffing ratios and adverseincidents if these were included
in a public facing report. Andthere is, advocacy for that as
well.
Jeff Byers (11:13):
So what's the likelihood of any solutions
being adopted in the currentpolitical environment?
Kathleen Haddad (11:18):
Well, Jeff, that's a good question. One of
the, reports contained a link topresident Biden's anti
competition policy that, he,issued in 2023. So when I went
to the link, I found four zerofour, a page not found.
Jeff Byers (11:37):
Yeah. Well, do you do you wanna know, some breaking
news Yes. That will be sale bythe time this publishes?
Kathleen Haddad (11:43):
Yes. Yes. Go for it.
Jeff Byers (11:45):
I got a report from HealthCareDive that FTC this is
the headline. FTC retainsstricter merger guidelines under
Trump, with lead up text sayingFTC chair Andrew Ferguson sent a
memo to agency staff on Tuesdayclarifying that the Biden era
(12:06):
guidelines will remain in placefor now in a setback for health
care mergers. Becca Piper wrotethat who I think she's gonna
join us in a couple of weeks,so, please don't sue me. And I
have not read the rest of thearticle.
Kathleen Haddad (12:21):
Well, that's interesting news, Jeff. There
soon will be a Trump appointedmajority on that commission, but
if the chair is stating this andstays with this policy, that's
good news for competition inhealth care. Another piece of
good news is that the state'sattorneys general have authority
(12:42):
to regulate mergers andacquisitions as well, and some
are doing so. States are passinglaws to empower broader
regulation of m and a activityas well.
Jeff Byers (12:52):
Yeah. Yeah. It will be interesting to see because I
think that was, this antitrustguy. I think there was a big
question mark from what I gatherof, people wondering what kind
of line the the new Trumpadministration will take. So
this it's an interestingsignpost of what potentially
could come.
But then, you know, you actuallystill have to go through the,
(13:13):
you know, blocking mergers andand acquisitions kinda activity.
So we'll we'll see what happens.
Kathleen Haddad (13:18):
Right. And they have to have the enough staff to
do the reviews. I'm I think Ithink right now, the dollar
threshold for reviews is ahundred and 25,000,000, the
value of a of an acquisition.And that's that when it gets
that to that level, they have tobe reported to the FTC. But
we'll we'll see.
We'll see.
Jeff Byers (13:39):
Yeah. We'll see. Well, nice to have some news to
to dovetail with this with inthe addition to, breaking down
the the two reports. I think youwe mentioned off mic. You you
mentioned one of the reports is,like, a pretty nice qualitative
study.
Is that right?
Kathleen Haddad (13:53):
Yeah. It it it it was not it was easy to read.
It's the agency report.
Jeff Byers (13:59):
Alright. Well, we're not playing favorites. We'll put
both in the show notes, and you,the listener, can check those
out. Kathleen, thanks for forjoining us today on Health Pairs
This Week.
Kathleen Haddad (14:08):
Yeah. That's what we are, and I'm glad glad
to have been with you, Jeff.
Jeff Byers (14:13):
Yeah. And to you, the listener, thanks for
listening. If, you enjoyed theshow, please, leave a review. It
helps people find the show, andwe want to continue making the
show for you. So anything thatyou can do to help, people find
the show would be great.
For instance, send it to theregulator in your life and or or
(14:34):
the venture capitalists. Eitherone would do it. Venture
capitalists. Send it to venturecapitalists. And with that,
we'll see you next week.
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