February 10, 2026 • 49 mins
Anxiety often feels like it comes out of nowhere in midlife—especially during perimenopause and after menopause. You’re doing “all the right things,” yet your nervous system feels constantly on edge. Racing thoughts. Poor sleep. A sense that something isn’t right… but you can’t quite name it.
In this episode of Asking for a Friend, I’m joined by Dr. Lori Davis, licensed psychologist, clinical instructor at Weill Cornell Medicine, and author of the upcoming workbook This Is Your Anxiety on Menopause. Together, we unpack why anxiety often intensifies in midlife—and what women can actually do about it.
Dr. Davis shares both the science and the lived experience behind anxiety, explaining how hormonal shifts, nervous system changes, sleep disruption, perfectionism, and decades of “pushing through” collide in this season of life. We also talk about why anxiety may feel different now than it did earlier in life—and why you are not broken.
In this conversation, we cover:
- Why anxiety often spikes during perimenopause and menopause
- Whether menopause causes anxiety or unmasks an existing vulnerability
- The role of hormones, cortisol, sleep, and the nervous system
- Why worry loops and nighttime anxiety are so common
- Evidence-based tools to calm anxiety (including breathing, exposure, and cognitive strategies)
- When therapy or medication may be helpful—and when lifestyle alone isn’t enough
- How to stop fighting anxiety and start working with your nervous system
This episode is grounding, practical, and deeply validating for women navigating midlife changes. If you’ve ever thought, “Why am I suddenly anxious when nothing is technically wrong?”—this conversation will help you connect the dots.
👉 Share this episode with a friend who needs reassurance that they’re not alone—and not failing.
You can find Dr. Lori Davis at https://www.drloridavis.com/
Instagram https://www.instagram.com/drloridavis/?hl=en
_________________________________________
If you’re doing “all the right things” and still feel stuck, adding a layer of support may be an option. I’ve partnered with a trusted telehealth platform offering modern solutions for women in midlife—including micro-dosed GLP-1 and other peptide therapies.
https://elliemd.com/michelefolan - Create a free account to view all products.
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Transcripts are created with AI and may not be perfectly accurate.
Disclaimer: This podcast is for general informational purposes only and does not constitute the practice of medicine, nursing, or other professional healthcare services. It is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your qualified healthcare provider with any questions regarding a medical condition.
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Michele Folan (00:00):
The information shared on this podcast is for
educational purposes only andshould not be considered medical
advice.
Please consult a qualifiedhealthcare professional
regarding your individual healthneeds.
You've been doing the rightthings, lifting weights,
prioritizing protein, working onsleep and stress, but still
feel like something isn'tclicking.
(00:22):
This is for you.
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(00:43):
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No pressure, no judgment, justeducation, options, and expert
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Health, wellness, fitness, andeverything in between.
(01:47):
We're removing the taboo fromwhat really matters in midlife.
Today we are talking aboutanxiety, specifically why it so
often intensifies during midlifeand after menopause, and what
(02:08):
women can actually do about it.
My guest is Dr.
Lori Davis, a licensedpsychologist and clinical
instructor of psychology inpsychiatry at the Wild Cornell
Medical College.
Dr.
Lori Davis, welcome to Askingfor a Friend.
Dr. Lori Davis (02:23):
Thanks so much.
It's a real pleasure to be heretoday and happy to discuss
these issues.
They're so important.
Michele Folan (02:29):
And that is specifically why I asked you to
be on the podcast.
I see anxiety ramping up inpeople around me, whether they
be clients, friends, family.
And it's so interesting.
And then I saw that you wrotethis book, and I'm like, oh my
gosh, it connected a lot of dotsfor me.
(02:52):
So I want to start with youthough.
You have a very personaljourney.
So before we get into thescience, can you share when
anxiety first entered your lifeand what that experience was
like for you personally?
Dr. Lori Davis (03:07):
Absolutely, Michelle.
I think that many women andalso men, you know, have sort of
early roots in anxiety, butthey don't really know what it
is.
And so I think that was thecase for me, in that as far back
as I can remember, I would getsort of, I would get, I mean my
heart would race, or I'd get astomachache, like if I was away
(03:29):
from home too long.
Or let's say I'm going forcamp, I would have sort of
separation anxiety.
So there were these earlypieces about anxiety, but you
know, they don't teach you,especially back then, they
didn't teach you about anxietyat school.
I mean, it just isn't how it isnow, where there's so much
information online and parentsare so informed about anxiety,
(03:51):
ADHD, and depression and theeffects of social media.
Like it just wasn't around.
So I had these early piecesabout like something didn't feel
quite right, but I was highfunctioning otherwise.
And so as I got older, Iremember when I got my driver's
license.
Like all of a sudden, I waskind of I was nervous about
driving on the highways and Iwould want to kind of get back
(04:12):
home.
But again, I was high enoughfunctioning that nobody really
noticed, but I felt likesomething was off.
So as I got into my earlyadulthood, I then started having
sort of a panic attack.
And I didn't know what thatwas.
It was really freaky.
For people who have panic, it'ssort of like it kind of seems
to come out of the blue.
You feel like you can'tbreathe, you're gonna pass out.
A lot of people end up going tothe emergency room or, you
(04:34):
know, like feeling that they'regonna die, they're having a
heart attack.
And so I definitely had thatkind of experience.
And I finally got evaluated,and they were like, Yeah, you
have anxiety.
And I I remember readingeverything I could about the
subject.
Um, and again, this wayproceeds in my career as a
psychologist.
I read every book I could find,old books, new books.
(04:56):
And then, you know, thetreatments were a little bit
different then.
And I just soaked it all upbecause I do think that
information is power no matterwhat you're dealing with,
whether it's nutrition or mentalhealth or physical health and
so forth.
And so I learned what Ilearned.
I think it was a naturalprogression for me to be a
psychologist, to be a therapist.
It's kind of my personality,but I didn't do it.
(05:18):
I had a second career.
It was a second career.
I worked in publishing, had myown business, sold it, and then
was like, okay, now I want to goback and help other people.
And anxiety was like, it was afocus, but I ended up doing a
lot of clinical research andtrauma, PTSD, and 9-11 and a
bunch of other things thathappened.
I sort of fell into that.
(05:38):
So that was my focus.
And then so I decided to returnto my roots because I've always
been anxious.
And during menopause, duringthat whole perimenopause,
menopause stage, I startedgetting anxious again, like it
kicked up again.
Uh, you know, drop in hormones.
I wasn't sleeping well.
Um, you know, that affectsneurotransmitters.
(06:00):
Like I was moody, you know, Ididn't know what was happening
to my body and brain.
That causes anxiety.
And the other piece about whichis a lot of what my book is
about, is midlife, right?
So you're juggling thephysiological changes and your
body's changing, and it's like,what's this muffin top thing
around my waist?
What is this tire?
While you're also juggling alot in life, right?
(06:22):
Like family, work, financialstuff, health issues, aging
parents, like it's just anendless list of things that
you're constantly multitaskingabout.
So that causes anxiety.
So I try to apply my ownlessons learned and my own, also
my clinical knowledge, youknow, what I was trained for,
and combine those two to educateother people like, hey, you can
(06:45):
be anxious and you can stilllive your life, you can set
goals and so forth.
So my own journey has beenvaried.
Like I was anxious and then Iwas okay for a while.
And that can happen withpeople.
They're like, why all of asudden am I anxious again?
And perimenopause, midlife, asyou know, this is your thing.
Midlife is a huge time ofchange.
Yeah.
Reevaluating who you are.
(07:07):
So you know, and that includeseverything in your life.
And so I experienced that too.
So this was this sort of thelast kick up in anxiety, and now
I'm managing it.
You know, I've I've figured outhow to how to do that for
myself.
And it's different foreveryone.
Michele Folan (07:22):
Yeah.
I appreciate the story becauseit it makes it makes a lot of
sense.
And I I bet there are women outthere that are identifying with
with your story.
When you were first diagnosed,how old you said were you in
your late teens when you werediagnosed?
Dr. Lori Davis (07:38):
I would say at the time I was probably about 19
or 20.
Michele Folan (07:43):
What year would that have been?
That would have been in I I'mnot I'm not picking out like I'm
not trying to figure out howold you are.
Dr. Lori Davis (07:50):
That would have been in um yeah, like around
1980 or something like that.
Michele Folan (07:56):
Yeah, and and what what the reason I'm asking
is we didn't hear a lot aboutanxiety in 1980.
I was I was in high school.
Certainly plenty of us had itat the time.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yes.
Michele Folan (08:11):
But are you finding that now the the the
discussion has changed?
Because I'm even impressed thatanybody would diagnosed you
back then.
You know, because it you wekind of grew up in a suck it up
buttercup, you know, kind ofenvironment.
Dr. Lori Davis (08:28):
We did.
And I think that yeah, it'slike chin up, just plow through
and you don't talk about yourfeelings that much.
And so, um, and you know, thereare varying environments.
Yeah.
I like I got I there was noeducation about mental health
issues in my schools.
Like I that just wasn't there.
So I it was a kind of a relieffor me when I did get the
(08:51):
diagnosis, because like yousaid, there wasn't a lot of
conversation around it.
Now I know a lot of women whohad, like you said, who had
anxiety, but they just didn'tknow what it was, or they were
told, Oh, you're just nervous,just deal with it, it'll go
away.
It's but it's it's a realdiagnostic thing.
Like, and there was no dialogueabout it.
(09:13):
Even like I never really evenMichelle talked to friends about
it.
Like I have one really dearfriend, she's still one of my
closest friends.
Like when I was diagnosed, likeI I told her.
And it was kind of new to hertoo.
You know, but she helped me andI was able to say, hey, like
I'm nervous driving, or I feellike there are too many people
(09:34):
at this concert, and I want tolike get out of here, quick
escape, or traffic, being stuckin traffic or a tunnel.
I was like, so I was able toexpress it.
And then, of course, going totherapy and meeting with someone
who was able to put words to itto give me strategies to
explore.
Like I'm I mean, I integrate interms of therapy.
(09:55):
Like I'm a cognitive behavioraltherapist, which means, you
know, looking at your thoughtpatterns, the things that make
you really anxious and nervous,and then what can you do about
it?
Like action-oriented.
But I also had regular talktherapy, which is like, how does
this link back to earlymessages I got about feelings?
Right?
Like it's okay to be anxious.
You're not, you know, I I thinkwomen are socialized too.
(10:16):
We we're supposed to multitask.
We're supposed to just, likeyou said, push through
everything.
And, you know, we hit a wallsometimes.
And I think I hit a wallearlier.
You know, obviously, kind ofearly adulthood, I hit a wall
about going out into the world,being an independent person,
establishing a career, you know,um, just being an adult.
(10:37):
I think, and that's often atime that now adults like women
in midlife now see this oftenwith their kids.
Is the kid achieving flight?
Is the kid getting a job?
Um, is the kid still living athome?
Like, and kind of that worryabout um about kids and often
using the words like my child isanxious or my child has ADHD,
or it's used so freely, like I'mamazed because we just didn't
(11:01):
have that.
So I think that there was verylittle information.
In fact, when I went to thebookstore, I said I tried to
read everything I could.
First of all, there was no um,there was no Google.
unknown (11:13):
There was no Google.
Dr. Lori Davis (11:14):
So whatever you could find to read, you went to
a bookstore, right?
And so I would walk aroundlooking for books about anxiety.
And I remember there was onebook called The Anxiety Disease,
and it was like agroundbreaking book.
And I I read it like 10 times,you know, because it was like
putting words to my experience.
But now, you know, you can go,you can go to Barnes Noble or go
(11:38):
on Amazon.
I mean, you you know how manybooks there are on mental health
and anxiety and nutrition andhealth.
And I mean, there's so muchavailable that's almost
dizzying, like what had youknow, try to filter what's good.
Back then there was hardlyanything.
So, you know, I appreciate howmuch uh focus on mental health
(11:58):
has has changed.
Yeah.
Oh gosh.
Um, and I think, you know, forwomen going through midlife, I'm
so thrilled also that theguidelines around menopause are
changing and the HRT thing, andlike, you know, it it's only a
positive thing.
Yeah.
It only can be a positivething.
Michele Folan (12:15):
We have so much more than our mothers had.
Yes.
You know, the resources that wehave are so much better.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Yeah.
Michele Folan (12:21):
I'm gonna take a real quick break, and then when
we come back, I want to talkabout from a clinical
perspective where anxiety comesfrom.
Quick pause because if you'rehere, you already know this
isn't just a health podcast.
Yes, we talk about nutrition,strength, and taking care of
(12:41):
your body and midlife, but wealso talk about life,
relationships, energy,boundaries, and what really
matters in this season.
This isn't about perfection orshrinking yourself.
It's about staying strong,curious, connected, and actually
enjoying the years ahead.
If this resonates, share theepisode with a friend who'd
(13:02):
appreciate the conversation andfollow us on Instagram at asking
for a friend underscore pod.
All right, we're back.
Dr.
Davis, how do genetics, earlylife experience, and then
nervous system wiring contributeto anxiety?
Dr. Lori Davis (13:23):
So that's really an excellent question.
And uh people often ask that,you know, why do I have anxiety?
You know, I don't like it.
Why do I have it?
So having anxiety really comesfrom varied places.
It comes from, in part,biology.
Studies do show that if youhave a close relative who has
anxiety, uh, you have a higherlikelihood of having anxiety
(13:45):
yourself.
That is true.
It comes from earlyexperiences, people who have uh
early loss, maybe of a parent,childhood illness.
They there's early trauma.
They suffered, uh they werepart of a natural disaster, you
know, they were surrounded bydomestic violence, right?
They were this, you know, uhthe victim of uh violence,
(14:07):
interpersonal violence in someway.
So there are those earlyexperiences that combine with
your biology.
So not everyone who has theseexperiences are necessarily
going to become an anxiousperson.
They may become scattered, theymay shut down, you know.
So some people kind of veertoward anxiety.
So there is a physiologicalcomponent combined with your
(14:30):
early experiences.
There's a third piece, though,which I think is something worth
exploring for everyone.
And um, there are someexercises I have in my book
about that.
What early messages did you getabout your feelings?
So we all internalize things,messages we got.
Like for some people who havelike generalized anxiety or
health anxiety, they gotmessages, not to blame any
(14:52):
parents, just no one's perfecthere.
No one's a robot.
They got messages, the world isa dangerous place.
Be careful when you cross thestreet, be careful when you do
this.
This could happen.
They're so worried about thewell-being of their kids, they
might at times overdo it, right?
Or over monitor the kids'behavior.
So there's a message theworld's dangerous.
(15:12):
You really have to be on thelookout all the time.
So that can kind of kick upfeelings of anxiety, or just
push through your feelings, youknow, like there's no such thing
as anxiety.
Like forget about anger.
Like, so bury your feelings.
Burying one's feelings,eventually you're gonna hit a
wall with that big time, right?
Right.
Where the feelings are gonnaget the better of you and you're
(15:34):
gonna start to get panicattacks or depressed or angry,
and it's you're gonna hit awall.
You can't do that forever.
So early messages aboutfeelings.
And and anyone who's listeningnow, ask yourself, what messages
did I get about my feelings?
What messages did I get aboutthe world as a safe place?
About relationships, whatmessages did I get about that?
(15:56):
They're wonderful, but yeah,you can have some problems, or
relationships are like it's toochaotic.
So we all we're like sponges.
Kids soak up everything intheir environment naturally,
because they want to know what'sgoing on.
So those three pieces combinedcan conspire to cause anxiety in
certain individuals.
Michele Folan (16:15):
So then how does menopause change the nervous
system?
Because I guess I'm trying tovet whether or not if you view
menopause as causing anxiety, oris it more an unmasking or
intensifying of existingvulnerability?
Dr. Lori Davis (16:35):
Yeah, I think it's both.
Okay.
I think both are reallyimportant.
So obviously, with the decreaseof certain hormones, that
completely disrupts sleep.
Not having sleep causesirritability.
It causes worry.
I'm not sleeping.
Am I going to be able toperform well, get my job done,
take care of the kids?
(16:55):
Um, I have a to-do list that'sreally long.
So certain um again, hormonalchanges, even about the body,
you know, what's happening tome?
I look in the mirror, I don'trecognize myself anymore.
I'm changing.
This is too much for me.
I feel overwhelmed.
So I think that the literalchanges from menopause, what
(17:16):
you're talking about, can causeanxiety.
I also think that underlyingissues re-emerge.
During midlife, there's a bigthere's an evaluation, like,
where am I?
Am I happy in my job if someoneis working and has a career?
Am I happy not working?
You know, not to say that umbeing a homemaker isn't work, it
(17:37):
is, but you know, am I happywith where I'm at basically?
Am I happy in my relationships?
Do I want to be living whereI'm living?
So there's another piece aboutmidlife itself that I think
causes women going through inthis age range to reevalu
everything, and then that causesanxiety.
So you talk about chicken andegg.
I think they're both working intandem.
(18:00):
There are physiologicalchanges, neurotransmitters
change.
The brain also, you know, bebet starting around, you know,
40s, the brain also starts tochange.
Our memories, you know, part ofthat's menopause, part of it is
aging.
Our brains start to slow down.
We don't, you know, we don'tprocess as quickly.
So we feel the changes we can'tremember.
(18:20):
Some of that's again frombiological changes during
menopause, and some of it's justphase of life.
So I think there's so muchthat's working at the same time
that you can't get an exactanswer.
So I think they're both causingum things.
The that underlyingvulnerability for sure.
If you're perfectionistic bynature, right, and all of a
(18:43):
sudden these um your memory'snot as sharp, or you know, you
wake up in the morning, you'relike, I'm so tired.
Like, I need more coffee, whichalso makes you more anxious, by
the way.
I know if you drink too muchcoffee.
We and I fall into that trapall the time.
Some days I'm much I'm betterthan others.
So you feel tired, right?
You can't perform, your brain'snot working the same way, then
(19:03):
that causes you worry.
If you're perfectionistic andthat's your underlying way of
coping, and that gets disrupted,and you feel like you're not
handling things as well, thenthat just kind of makes you more
worried.
So you see, all these thingsare working together.
If you are a person who's adoer and all of a sudden you
don't get out of the houseanymore, right?
(19:24):
You're not happy with whereyou're at.
Well, being in the house cancause um anxiety because you
need to be out and engaged withthe world.
So there are so many pieces tothis.
Michele Folan (19:32):
Oh gosh.
And then do you think anxietypresents differently in say
post-menopause or menopause thanit does when, say, you're 14?
Do we respond to itdifferently?
Dr. Lori Davis (19:45):
That's an interesting question.
I think how what whatattributions we make about it
are different.
The symptoms of anxiety are thesymptoms of anxiety, right?
So if you if you look in adiagnostic book, so heart
racing, tightness in the chest,stomach ache, irritability,
feeling on edge, can'tconcentrate, right?
(20:05):
Feeling like your headspinning, um, numbness and
tingling, right?
Feeling spacey, like those arethe those are symptoms of
anxiety.
Those are universal, whetheryou're 13 or whether you're 50.
Like those are the symptoms.
What we think about them isdifferent.
Like when woman is in midlife,it might be like, oh no, you
(20:26):
know, who am I now?
Like, what's happening to me?
I have no control overeverything.
I'm not, you know, I don't knowif a 13-year-old is like, oh, I
don't have control over this,or you know, they're just sort
of like trying to deal withtheir symptoms, or maybe tell
hopefully they can tell theirparents about it, right?
Something doesn't feel right,or hopefully someone at school
will notice something.
But I think as women, we're sowired to be achievers.
(20:49):
You know, it's like way toomuch at this point, right?
We're like constantly pushing.
It's we don't rest enough, wedon't relax enough.
Like that's really importanttoo.
So I think we make theseattributions.
Uh-oh, something's wrong.
I'm not productive enough.
I'm not functioning.
My memory's going out thewindow.
I can't find anything.
You know, I'm not the person Iwas.
Who am I anyway?
(21:09):
You know, there's just so muchstatic around that at this point
in life.
So how we think about it, Ithink, is very different.
Michele Folan (21:17):
Right.
Yeah, there's a lot.
There's a lot of layers there.
And then and then it's like, isam I, is, am I truly anxious,
or is it that my hormones arewacky?
And then you've got that wholelayer of of concern as well.
There are many forms ofanxiety.
(21:38):
I know generalized worry,there's panic, there's health
anxiety, relationship anxiety,social travel.
Dr. Lori Davis (21:48):
Travel phobia, yes.
But there's there's f specificphobias like fear of dogs or
snakes or what yeah.
So there are basic phobias too.
Yes.
Michele Folan (21:57):
Do you see something more often?
In in these women?
Dr. Lori Davis (22:01):
The thing I see most in since we're speaking
about kind of midlife is kind ofthat generalized anxiety.
Generalized anxiety disorder issort of like that worry, the
constant worry.
What if this happens?
What if this doesn't happen?
And then the desire to fix itsomehow, like, okay, let me make
it happen, or it's what if thishappens to my kid?
(22:22):
What if someone gets sick?
What if I can't handle it all?
These huge questions, right?
This generalized worry.
When you have worries that arethat big, it's very hard to
figure out what to do for thembecause they're so big in your
head.
It's like a mushroom cloud overyour head.
If you break down things intosmaller pieces, then you can
come up with strategies andplans and set goals and follow
(22:44):
through.
But I do see this big worry.
Where am I going in life?
What do I want?
Who am I?
What's going to happen to mykids?
Are they going to be okay?
It's so big.
And sometimes with that comespanic.
Um, sometimes not.
Sometimes it's just a boatloadof worry and you can't turn it
off.
Michele Folan (23:01):
Yeah.
Dr. Lori Davis (23:02):
Like it's just ruminating, you know, ruminating
worry all the time.
Michele Folan (23:05):
And then what about the patient that says, I
know I'm anxious, but I justdon't know what I'm anxious
about?
Dr. Lori Davis (23:12):
Yeah.
Michele Folan (23:13):
It it it comes out of nowhere.
Dr. Lori Davis (23:15):
Yeah.
Michele Folan (23:15):
Kind of.
Dr. Lori Davis (23:16):
Yeah.
That's that's an interestingphenomenon.
Um, because, you know, whenpeople come into therapy, for
example, I always ask, like, whyare you coming into treatment
now?
You know, and they're like,because I just have panic
attacks, and I'm like, well,what's going on?
I don't know.
My life is the same.
It's the same as it's been thelast two years.
Why I don't know why I'mgetting panicky now.
And I usually say, it there's astockpiling effect.
(23:39):
Like, we all deal withstressors, we tuck away what we
can, we manage the best we can.
And I think people, like Isaid, people hit a wall
sometimes.
So they're like, but nothinghappened like, you know, this
past year.
So I think, yes, some of itcould be menopausal changes,
bodily changes, brain changes,of course.
(24:00):
But some of it is the copingstrategies you're not that
you've been using for a longtime are not working so well,
like avoiding your feelings,right?
Or not seeing your friendsanymore, or being able to
approach large issues that arekind of getting at you anyway,
like, do I want to relocate?
Do I want to switch careers?
Right?
Am I again, am I happy in arelationship?
(24:22):
You know, and so if you don'tdeal with those underlying
pieces, you can find yourselfall of a sudden panicking and
peep feeling really worried.
And that's why people arebaffled.
Like, why is this happeningnow?
Even good things can causeanxiety.
Like, you know, kids gettingmarried, like that's a really
happy event.
But it's like a lot ofjuggling, and um, there's
(24:45):
financial issues, there's youknow, there's so much loaded in
that.
So even happy stuff in life,job promotions, anything like
that, can people discount that?
Happy things also cause anxietybecause it's a change, and
people don't respond well tochange, even if it's change they
want, or it's re it'saffirming, it's still change,
(25:06):
and and people can get reallythrown off when there's a lot of
change.
So people minimize the goodstuff that that can cause you
distress too.
Yeah.
Oh, well, I should just bereally happy because this is
happening.
Well, okay, well, now I have tofork over this much money for
like an engagement party.
You know what I mean?
Like it's it's not just thingsare just not one way or the
(25:27):
other, you know.
And um, so I think people canbe mystified.
Michele Folan (25:31):
Yeah, I'm I'm only laughing because I've
watched my sisters go throughthis with wedding planning.
And I'm like, I am not in ahurry for my children to get to
get married.
So you you do talk about thisthing called the worry loop.
Is that kind of the same thingwhere it it's hard to break off
(25:51):
that hamster wheel?
Dr. Lori Davis (25:53):
Yeah, I think that um once people get caught
up with a particular worry, itkind of takes on a life of its
own.
It kind of grows and then it'ssort of like, yeah, it's like
whether you want to think of itas a hamster wheel or a carousel
ride, like you can't get off.
It keeps going round and roundand round, and it becomes this
worry loop that doesn't stop.
(26:14):
And I think that's when it'simportant to think about literal
strategies.
How do you stop that loop?
Uh, and that can range fromwhich I do is I like I put I
click the microphone on myiPhone and I go, okay, I'm doing
worry time.
And I go, I'm really worriedabout this, and what if this
happens and what doesn't happen?
And I give myself carte blancheto just like let it rip, just
(26:36):
get all the worries out.
And I set a timer and I do thatfor a few minutes and I feel
some relief.
It just allows me to not bottleit up, to get it out, and then
I shift to a different activity.
So that's one way to break theworry loop.
Another way is breaking theworry down, as I mentioned
earlier, into smaller pieces.
Like if you're worried about uhyou want to change careers,
(26:59):
it's so big.
You break it down into what aresome early steps I can do?
And I know you do coaching andstuff about things, you
understand this, like, okay,what's the thing you can do this
week?
You can go online and readabout different careers.
That's it.
So it's a way to manage theworry, make it smaller with
actionable steps.
So there are a number of waysto break that worry loop because
(27:21):
just telling yourself, oh, stopworrying, like that doesn't do
anything.
Or invalidating your worry,what's wrong with you?
Why are you worrying aboutthis?
Get over it.
Like, you know, other peopleare doing better.
What's wrong with you?
Like, that's just negativeself-talk.
Right.
That's like this art from Icall that negative trash talk.
Like that's not helping you inany way.
So there are different ways tobreak that worry loop, but it's
(27:43):
very, very common.
We all have our loops, wheneverthat's how we do.
Michele Folan (27:48):
I'm sitting here nodding.
Yeah, Davis is sitting heretalking.
I'm like, yep, yep, yep, yep,yep.
Yeah.
Yeah, if it's not me, it'ssomebody I know.
It's everyone.
Yeah.
I know.
And then women often say thattheir anxiety is worse at night.
Is there a clinical reason forthat?
Dr. Lori Davis (28:07):
It's interesting.
Some studies show that actuallycortisol, which is our primary
stress hormone, is actuallyhighest in the morning.
So there are a lot of women whoreport when they wake up being
flooded with anxiety to thepoint that it's hard to get out
of bed, or they jump out of bedand have to get an action right
away.
So studies do show earlymorning actually can be a
difficult time.
(28:28):
But I would say thatbehaviorally, the evening is
tough for a lot of peoplebecause you are we're also
scheduled during the day thatyou're in the zone.
I have to wake up, do this formy family, go to work, or you
run errands, make dinner,whatever it is, work out, find
time for everything.
And then at night, you've gotbreathing room, and then things
(28:51):
can come flooding in, you know,your underlying thoughts and
feelings.
So when you have time to sitstill and you're not attending
to it earlier, then there it is.
Yeah.
It's coming in.
And when you get into bed, forexample, that's a time to take
it down.
Your brain's still going,especially during menopause, the
brain doesn't shut off.
So then you kind of get floodedwith anxiety at night.
(29:14):
Uh, and that's also why it's soimportant at night to try to
take it down by like notwatching too much news,
especially now, trying to watch,watch a funny uh sitcom on
Netflix for 30 minutes, or stareat the wall, or snuggle with
your pet or your loved one, ordo something that's going to
help bring your nervous systemdown.
Uh, do some gentle, I didgentle stretching, open up, open
(29:36):
up the hip flexors, the lowerback that get really tense, you
know, kind of take a warm bath,take it all down, which can then
help take the busy mind down aswell.
But there's more time to thinkat night.
Yeah.
When you're supposed to berelaxing.
When you're quiet.
Sometimes people get anxious.
They're not, they're not intheir usual habit.
(29:56):
They have all the time in theworld to be like contemplating
the universe, you know.
Michele Folan (30:01):
Well, I tried uh deep breathing exercises.
Those those help me anyanything that where I have to
count.
So I don't think about what Ihave to do the next day.
I just I'm counting.
Dr. Lori Davis (30:13):
Which ones do you like?
Michele Folan (30:15):
Um, I I breathe in for eight, hold for seven,
exhale for four.
Right, yeah.
Dr. Lori Davis (30:22):
Like a four, seven, eight breathing.
Yeah, that's a that's an easyone.
That's a really good one,actually.
I do that one too.
And box breathing is supereasy.
Michele Folan (30:30):
Yeah.
And can you explain what boxbreathing is for anyone that
doesn't know what that is?
Dr. Lori Davis (30:34):
Yeah, this is like this is like the easiest
thing to remember.
It's like you breathe in forfour, hold for four, breathe out
for four, and hold it for fourmore, and you just do it like
five to ten times.
All these things, right?
They reset your nervous system,they give your brain a rest.
It feels like something you cancontrol.
(30:56):
I do, I do uh box breathingbefore bed every night, every
single night.
It takes no time.
And I find myself just like itjust bring, you know how the
breathing is, it's just becausewe breathe we we breathe from
from the top of our chest whenwe're anxious and running
around.
And you know, we don't havetime to breathe sometimes.
(31:16):
And so it forces you, as youknow, you start breathing from
the diaphragm, which is here.
Shallow breathing is comingfrom here.
And that can cause you to getmore stressed instead of taking
it down.
So a box breathing, any anytype of breathing, any um leaves
on a stream exercise is areally good visualization
(31:38):
exercise.
You take your worries and youput them on a leaf and then you
visualize it going down thestream.
It's like, bye-bye, worry.
And then you take the nextworry out of your head and you
put it on a leaf, and then it'sgoing down the stream.
Bye-bye, worry.
And these are just ways tocause a distraction, a delay,
and also to feel like you'redoing something.
And it makes it can make youfeel like, yeah, I'm I'm really
(32:00):
affecting some change here.
They were these strategies dowork, you know, but you you have
to do them kind of regularly.
Yeah.
Michele Folan (32:11):
And you had uh done a post or real recently,
and you mentioned this a littlebit earlier, but that you
watching old reruns, thatpredictability, that kind of
it's that mindless.
It's kind of why like I I watchHD TV at night because they're
they've got money and they'regoing to buy a house.
Dr. Lori Davis (32:33):
I mean, it's it's I used to love I used to
love house hunters years ago.
Like I never missed it.
Michele Folan (32:38):
Yeah, I watch House Hunters all the time.
And I know most sleep expertswill tell you not to watch TV at
night because of the bluelight, whatever.
But we watch, I can't tell youhow many times we've watched
reruns of The Sopranos.
Now, Sopranos in itself is nota relaxing show to watch, but
we've seen it so many times.
(33:00):
It it's the predictabilitypiece.
Does that really work?
Dr. Lori Davis (33:03):
Uh, I think it works for many people.
I I think it works for me.
Yeah, I agree.
Look, like watching, you know,violent movies before you go to
bed is probably not a good idea.
But the familiarity piece, Ithink, is is there's really
something to it.
Like a few months ago, I had Iwas working on the book, and I
was like, I had a lot of work todo between that and my
practice.
So I just decided to watch thewhole series of Sex in the City,
(33:26):
uh, the origin, you know, theoriginal series.
And I watched it every nightbecause I knew exactly what was
going to happen.
I knew who the people were, Iknew when I was gonna laugh, I
knew when I was gonna feel sador whatever.
I found it so comforting.
And there are people who also,to your point, watch.
Um I've met a lot of people whowatch Law and Order for some
(33:47):
reason, like two in the morningif they can't sleep.
And my first reaction was like,well, that's like crime stuff.
Like that's they said, but Iknow I it's like seeing a family
on TV.
Like, I know all those peopleand I know all the episodes.
So if it works for you, great.
For other people, it's it canbe stimulating.
I think there's no one sizefits all about worry and anxiety
(34:10):
treatment and you know, stressmanagement.
If it works for you, good,great, keep doing it.
If it doesn't work, justacknowledge it and try something
else.
Michele Folan (34:18):
And what are first line treatments for
anxiety?
How do you match the patient upto where to begin?
That's a good question.
Dr. Lori Davis (34:26):
There are some patients who come in where
they're really in a panic andit's hard for them to function
and get through the day-to-day.
So there may be a sort of aconversation about, you know, do
you do you want to think aboutmedication?
I'm very middle of the roadabout medication.
I think a lot of anxiety can betreated without medication, but
I'm not anti-medication.
(34:47):
So sometimes medication is apiece of it to help stabilize
someone's symptoms.
And I think people can oftensay negative things about
themselves.
Why can't I do this on my own?
Why do I have to rely onmedication?
And I think it's sort of partof being, you know, we get mean
mean to ourselves.
And I think sometimes it canhelp someone stabilize enough to
then do the deeper work aboutwhat the heck is going on in my
(35:07):
life right now.
But the first line treatmentreally is uh for anxiety is um
exposure work.
That's the gold standard, whichis basically if you start
getting anxious and you areavoiding things, if you're
saying no to social invitationsand you don't want to see your
friends anymore, or you'rehaving trouble driving or
flying, the goal is for you toget back out there, expose
(35:30):
yourself to the fear.
When you can approach yourfears little by little, your
anxiety gets kicked up.
That's true.
You're gonna get more anxious.
And as long as you keepapproaching, your anxiety will
start to come down and staydown.
So, so that exposure work iskey for reducing anxiety and
having it stay low.
(35:52):
And it really studies haveshown there's a lot, there's
there's so much research insupport of that.
The other piece is we all havethought patterns around anxiety.
So cognitive behavioraltherapies is also the other
piece to it, which is if you goon a job interview and you think
no one's ever gonna hire me,see, this is never gonna work
(36:12):
out, you know, like thisself-fulfilling prophecy, not
that it's your fault, but we getinto thought patterns that
aren't necessarily true.
Like maybe you're not gettinghired because the job market
isn't great right now, or theeconomy stinks, right?
Right?
Or maybe you're older andthere's an age discrimination,
like maybe there's a real issuehere.
I think we get we get caught upin these explanations that may
(36:34):
not be totally true.
Like my friends don't like meanymore.
I hear this a lot.
Well, is it true that theydon't like you anymore, or
they're really busy, you know,they're they're you know,
they're busy with their family,or there's some problem going on
that they're dealing with.
Is it is it necessarily becausethey don't like you anymore?
So it's challenging thethoughts that people have
(36:54):
because we have faulty thoughts.
We have faulty thoughtpatterns, right?
Um people say, yeah, I I I'mnot attractive anymore, right?
Or um is that really true?
Or you have you're experiencingsome bodily changes from
menopause or perimenopause,right?
Does that mean you're notattractive?
No, maybe it means you need tolift some weights or right or
(37:15):
get a larger size clothing for awhile, but does it mean you're
not attractive?
You know, so we all go to theseplaces.
And part of the therapy ischallenging those thoughts and
creating a more realisticportrait of what's really going
on.
Because we can go to very bigplaces.
Um, so it's challenging thethoughts, looking at faulty
(37:36):
patterns.
We all do it combined withapproaching your fears.
And people say, Michelle, like,I don't want to approach my
fears.
Like, if I'm afraid of likegoing through tunnels or going
on bridges, why the heck would Iwant to do that?
It's supremely uncomfortable.
Why do I want to torturemyself?
If you don't, then the anxietywill remain, but it won't get
(37:59):
better.
So there is a little bit of umthere has to be some pain before
the gain, like it's gonna beuncomfortable, but it works
because we're a little bit likelaboratory rats.
You have to approach, it'sconditioning.
If you start avoiding things,you're just feeding anxiety.
So those are kind of maintreatments for anxiety.
This old-fashioned talktherapy, going for support,
(38:21):
exploring your childhood, um,talking about relationships like
that counts too.
So there are a number of waysto approach um anxiety and and
therapy and depression and andum self-esteem and and also just
dealing with midlife andchange.
unknown (38:40):
Right.
Michele Folan (38:40):
And then are there advances in anxiety
treatment that you're seeing nowand on the horizon?
Dr. Lori Davis (38:48):
There are um, and I'm not an expert in in this
area of of research, butthey're looking at things like
changes in the brain andstimulating the brain and new
medications and uh new types oftherapies.
So I think that there's beensome advancement in terms of um
seeing anxiety markersgenetically, which I read about,
(39:10):
I don't know, with sometimewithin the past year, which is
interesting because if they canidentify kind of those uh those
markers, maybe they can dosomething about that.
Uh we've been, you know, we'rewired to be anxious.
We need anxiety because ithelped it helps us survive.
Survive.
Like if someone's chasing youdown the street, you know, like
(39:31):
uh, or if you like were in thecave and you know, you could
die, like anxiety helped you bealert, right?
It tells you like fight orflight or freeze, or you know,
you're trying you're trying tosave yourself.
And so that anxiety kind ofthen applies to our lives today.
Like you someone, a grizzlybear might not be chasing you,
but you might be perceiving somethreat in your life.
(39:52):
It could be an emotionalthreat.
So I think there areadvancements sort of
genetically.
People are looking at that.
I think there's a lot ofresearch on family history and
how much that may relate to thedevelopment of anxiety.
So I think there's a lot ofresearch going on about anxiety.
Um, how that will, what thatwill look like, you know, five
(40:13):
years from now, I'm not totallysure.
But people are really workingon it, and I think that's very
encouraging.
But anxiety is always going tobe part of the human condition
because we need it.
It's always gonna be there,right?
It's really just managing it.
And when the alarm bell kicksoff too much, uh-oh, uh-oh,
that's when you might developsort of like an anxiety
disorder.
Michele Folan (40:33):
All right.
And, you know, we know thatwomen, as our estrogen declines,
cortisol does kick up.
And so for women that havestarted experiencing anxiety and
they it's they feel like it'scoming out of nowhere, just for
them to understand that they'renot broken, that this this is
sometimes a very normal part ofmenopause, correct?
Dr. Lori Davis (40:58):
It it is, it is.
And I think, you know, a phrasethat I think has been helpful
to me and sometimes to others isexpect it, accept it.
Anxiety is not ever look, noteveryone gets a kick up in
anxiety during menopause, but Iknow a fair amount of people
who've had that experience forwhatever reason.
(41:19):
Yeah, understand that it it isa part, it is a combination of
body and brain changes and lifechanges and re-evaluation.
And if you can accept that andnormalize it for yourself, then
you can figure out what to dofor yourself instead of fighting
it.
Oh no, I shouldn't be anxious.
Oh no, what's wrong with me?
(41:40):
You know, the things thatagain, the mean things we say to
ourselves.
So I think that um it is apart, anxiety is a part of this
time of life.
And people are shocked.
What happened?
One day I was fine.
The next minute I heard someonetalk about they were in the car
and they were driving to work.
Next thing you know, boom.
(42:00):
They're panicking and they'relike, What what happened?
All of a sudden everythingfeels different.
Well, yeah, you know, thingsare changing physiologically.
Michele Folan (42:10):
Yeah.
Dr. Lori Davis (42:11):
So, um, yeah.
Michele Folan (42:13):
So I'm curious, this is kind of a personal
question.
What is one of your coreself-care must-haves?
How do you manage your day?
Dr. Lori Davis (42:23):
It's a good question.
Um, I do a couple of differentthings, and I always encourage
people to engage in trial anderror.
And part of the thing that Iwrite about in my book is like,
here are a bunch of differentthings that might work for you.
Use a combination of them.
If it doesn't work, no sweat.
Don't be down on yourself, noteverything's gonna work.
So the things that work for meare if I'm really anxious, I do
(42:45):
take a warm bath a lot.
Not hot baths because duringmenopause, right, if the water's
too hot, it's gonna dry outyour skin, like our skin
changes.
Um, don't, you know, don't haveyour phone right next to the
bathtub where you're checkingsocial media or the news while
you're trying to take a bath.
So a warm bath, 15 minutes,helps relax.
(43:06):
It also gives you a timeout.
And so that's one thing I do.
I, as I said, I do boxbreathing at least once a day,
probably a few days.
If I'm super anxious, so thisis kind of embarrassing, but
like when I'm traveling, I havea mini heating pad.
I take the heating pad and Ipack it.
And so if I'm feeling reallyanxious, I turn on the heating
(43:28):
pad and I just put my handsunder the heating pad.
And just the warmth kind of andsome breathing, it just kind of
relaxes me.
So that's one thing that worksfor me.
Um, I actually a bottle of coldwater, you know, like I I can
get sort of socially anxious orI can get nervous doing
interviews and stuff.
So sometimes I'll have a bottleof cold water or like a stress
(43:51):
ball or something like that.
So I do that.
Um, I try to talk to a friend.
If I'm really anxious, I willcall a friend and say, tell me
about.
About your day because it getsme out of my experience.
Maybe I've and maybe I canoffer something up, or maybe we
just laugh about somethingsilly.
Um, I do watch silly pet videoson social media.
Not that pets are silly becauseI love pets and snuggling with
(44:14):
pets is a great thing.
But watching silly videos, justlike watching silly sitcoms, I
also like dramas.
I'll get absorbed in a drama.
But yeah, watching the videos,I've definitely cut my news
consumption a lot.
Okay.
And that has definitely helped.
Like 20 minutes in the morningand then maybe 20 minutes at
night, and that's it.
Because it's diminishingreturns.
You're gonna get all worked up.
(44:35):
The news is still gonna bewaiting for you.
And if something huge happens,believe me, someone's gonna tell
you.
Michele Folan (44:40):
You'll know about it.
Dr. Lori Davis (44:41):
You'll know about it.
That is a big change, you know,that I've made.
There are so many things I do.
I do a lot of gentlestretching, light yoga, and that
helps me a lot.
Just like I said, keeping thechest area open.
We often sit like this, youknow, we're so busy, we're like
the shoulders are up, you know,we're leaning forward on our
phones.
So, like bodily, that makes youmore anxious.
(45:02):
So doing body checks, shouldersback, making sure like they're
back here, not here.
I because I'm definitelyscrunching up my neck,
tightening my tummy, you know.
So I do visualization exercisestoo.
I imagine safe space.
My safe being on the beach lateafternoon, no one's there.
There's maybe a gull ahead, thesand is warm, and it's just
(45:24):
quiet, and I imagine myselfthere for three minutes.
That's called the safe spacevisualization works beautifully.
There are so many strategies,and some of them really work for
me.
I do challenge my thoughts.
I do break problems, bigproblems into smaller pieces and
then come up with an actionplan.
Um, and I try not to make myto-do list too long because you
(45:46):
know, sometimes they're like thesize of your living room, all
the things you have to do.
So I go, all right, what do Iliterally need to do today?
What's the necessary thing?
And then I have a longer list.
Like these are things I need todo in the next few weeks,
right?
Someone's birthday's coming up,I need to get a gift or
whatever.
But what do I need to do today?
Make it smaller.
You the thing when things aretoo big, it's like, ah, I just
(46:09):
want to like escape or I can'thandle this.
Make everything smaller.
Michele Folan (46:13):
Yeah.
How do you uh eat an elephantone bite at a time?
And that's yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
All right, Dr.
Lori Davis, where can thelisteners find your work and
learn more about your book?
This is your anxiety onmenopause.
Yes.
Dr. Lori Davis (46:30):
So um, I have my Instagram account at Dr.
Laurie Davis where I talk aboutI have anxiety too, because I
do.
And so I try to provide tipsand strategies and inspiration
for living with anxiety andbeing productive and having a
meaningful life despite anxiety.
And I'm on Facebook as well,Dr.
Laurie Davis.
Um, my book is coming outactually in November.
(46:52):
Um, New Harbiger Publications,they've been great, and they do
a lot of psychology books, andit's a workbook.
So there are tons of exercisesto write in, write letters.
Um, I really break it down intohere's how to do this, try
this, try that, and help youcome up with your personalized
anxiety plan.
Not everybody can afford to goto therapy.
(47:13):
Right.
Or you can go to therapy anduse a workbook.
So the fact that you want tomake it accessible to more
people, that's a lot of what mybook is about.
So they can find my book inNovember, it should be on Amazon
and Barnes and Noble orwhatever.
And I'll probably be givingsome talks about it.
And um, I do all the things inthe book.
Like this is stuff I've tried,everything in the book, and it's
(47:36):
all evidence-based, allresearch, but I've lived it all.
Michele Folan (47:39):
Yeah, this is fantastic.
And I want to make sure thatwhen your book does come out in
November, you ping me so that Imake sure we tie the bow around
this with this conversation andand your book launch because
that's absolutely and then wecan talk about it.
Yeah.
So yeah, this is exciting.
We can do a live or something,but I I would love I would love
(48:00):
to do that.
Dr. Lori Davis (48:01):
That would be great.
Michele Folan (48:02):
I really enjoyed this conversation, Dr.
Davis.
Um, I it just really normalizesthis for women at this phase of
life.
And I really hope that even ifyou listeners may not feel that
anxiety is is daunting you, butmaybe someone in your life is
(48:23):
that you uh pass this episode onto them.
Dr. Lori Davis (48:26):
Thank you.
Help is available, definitely.
Michele Folan (48:29):
Yeah, thank you for being here today.
Thanks, Michelle.
Have a great day.
You too.
Bye.
Before you go, thank you forbeing here.
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(48:49):
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(01:25):
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(01:47):
We're removing the taboo fromwhat really matters in midlife.
Today we are talking aboutanxiety, specifically why it so
often intensifies during midlifeand after menopause, and what
(02:08):
women can actually do about it.
My guest is Dr.
Lori Davis, a licensedpsychologist and clinical
instructor of psychology inpsychiatry at the Wild Cornell
Medical College.
Dr.
Lori Davis, welcome to Askingfor a Friend.
Dr. Lori Davis (02:23):
Thanks so much.
It's a real pleasure to be heretoday and happy to discuss
these issues.
They're so important.
Michele Folan (02:29):
And that is specifically why I asked you to
be on the podcast.
I see anxiety ramping up inpeople around me, whether they
be clients, friends, family.
And it's so interesting.
And then I saw that you wrotethis book, and I'm like, oh my
gosh, it connected a lot of dotsfor me.
(02:52):
So I want to start with youthough.
You have a very personaljourney.
So before we get into thescience, can you share when
anxiety first entered your lifeand what that experience was
like for you personally?
Dr. Lori Davis (03:07):
Absolutely, Michelle.
I think that many women andalso men, you know, have sort of
early roots in anxiety, butthey don't really know what it
is.
And so I think that was thecase for me, in that as far back
as I can remember, I would getsort of, I would get, I mean my
heart would race, or I'd get astomachache, like if I was away
(03:29):
from home too long.
Or let's say I'm going forcamp, I would have sort of
separation anxiety.
So there were these earlypieces about anxiety, but you
know, they don't teach you,especially back then, they
didn't teach you about anxietyat school.
I mean, it just isn't how it isnow, where there's so much
information online and parentsare so informed about anxiety,
(03:51):
ADHD, and depression and theeffects of social media.
Like it just wasn't around.
So I had these early piecesabout like something didn't feel
quite right, but I was highfunctioning otherwise.
And so as I got older, Iremember when I got my driver's
license.
Like all of a sudden, I waskind of I was nervous about
driving on the highways and Iwould want to kind of get back
(04:12):
home.
But again, I was high enoughfunctioning that nobody really
noticed, but I felt likesomething was off.
So as I got into my earlyadulthood, I then started having
sort of a panic attack.
And I didn't know what thatwas.
It was really freaky.
For people who have panic, it'ssort of like it kind of seems
to come out of the blue.
You feel like you can'tbreathe, you're gonna pass out.
A lot of people end up going tothe emergency room or, you
(04:34):
know, like feeling that they'regonna die, they're having a
heart attack.
And so I definitely had thatkind of experience.
And I finally got evaluated,and they were like, Yeah, you
have anxiety.
And I I remember readingeverything I could about the
subject.
Um, and again, this wayproceeds in my career as a
psychologist.
I read every book I could find,old books, new books.
(04:56):
And then, you know, thetreatments were a little bit
different then.
And I just soaked it all upbecause I do think that
information is power no matterwhat you're dealing with,
whether it's nutrition or mentalhealth or physical health and
so forth.
And so I learned what Ilearned.
I think it was a naturalprogression for me to be a
psychologist, to be a therapist.
It's kind of my personality,but I didn't do it.
(05:18):
I had a second career.
It was a second career.
I worked in publishing, had myown business, sold it, and then
was like, okay, now I want to goback and help other people.
And anxiety was like, it was afocus, but I ended up doing a
lot of clinical research andtrauma, PTSD, and 9-11 and a
bunch of other things thathappened.
I sort of fell into that.
(05:38):
So that was my focus.
And then so I decided to returnto my roots because I've always
been anxious.
And during menopause, duringthat whole perimenopause,
menopause stage, I startedgetting anxious again, like it
kicked up again.
Uh, you know, drop in hormones.
I wasn't sleeping well.
Um, you know, that affectsneurotransmitters.
(06:00):
Like I was moody, you know, Ididn't know what was happening
to my body and brain.
That causes anxiety.
And the other piece about whichis a lot of what my book is
about, is midlife, right?
So you're juggling thephysiological changes and your
body's changing, and it's like,what's this muffin top thing
around my waist?
What is this tire?
While you're also juggling alot in life, right?
(06:22):
Like family, work, financialstuff, health issues, aging
parents, like it's just anendless list of things that
you're constantly multitaskingabout.
So that causes anxiety.
So I try to apply my ownlessons learned and my own, also
my clinical knowledge, youknow, what I was trained for,
and combine those two to educateother people like, hey, you can
(06:45):
be anxious and you can stilllive your life, you can set
goals and so forth.
So my own journey has beenvaried.
Like I was anxious and then Iwas okay for a while.
And that can happen withpeople.
They're like, why all of asudden am I anxious again?
And perimenopause, midlife, asyou know, this is your thing.
Midlife is a huge time ofchange.
Yeah.
Reevaluating who you are.
(07:07):
So you know, and that includeseverything in your life.
And so I experienced that too.
So this was this sort of thelast kick up in anxiety, and now
I'm managing it.
You know, I've I've figured outhow to how to do that for
myself.
And it's different foreveryone.
Michele Folan (07:22):
Yeah.
I appreciate the story becauseit it makes it makes a lot of
sense.
And I I bet there are women outthere that are identifying with
with your story.
When you were first diagnosed,how old you said were you in
your late teens when you werediagnosed?
Dr. Lori Davis (07:38):
I would say at the time I was probably about 19
or 20.
Michele Folan (07:43):
What year would that have been?
That would have been in I I'mnot I'm not picking out like I'm
not trying to figure out howold you are.
Dr. Lori Davis (07:50):
That would have been in um yeah, like around
1980 or something like that.
Michele Folan (07:56):
Yeah, and and what what the reason I'm asking
is we didn't hear a lot aboutanxiety in 1980.
I was I was in high school.
Certainly plenty of us had itat the time.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yes.
Michele Folan (08:11):
But are you finding that now the the the
discussion has changed?
Because I'm even impressed thatanybody would diagnosed you
back then.
You know, because it you wekind of grew up in a suck it up
buttercup, you know, kind ofenvironment.
Dr. Lori Davis (08:28):
We did.
And I think that yeah, it'slike chin up, just plow through
and you don't talk about yourfeelings that much.
And so, um, and you know, thereare varying environments.
Yeah.
I like I got I there was noeducation about mental health
issues in my schools.
Like I that just wasn't there.
So I it was a kind of a relieffor me when I did get the
(08:51):
diagnosis, because like yousaid, there wasn't a lot of
conversation around it.
Now I know a lot of women whohad, like you said, who had
anxiety, but they just didn'tknow what it was, or they were
told, Oh, you're just nervous,just deal with it, it'll go
away.
It's but it's it's a realdiagnostic thing.
Like, and there was no dialogueabout it.
(09:13):
Even like I never really evenMichelle talked to friends about
it.
Like I have one really dearfriend, she's still one of my
closest friends.
Like when I was diagnosed, likeI I told her.
And it was kind of new to hertoo.
You know, but she helped me andI was able to say, hey, like
I'm nervous driving, or I feellike there are too many people
(09:34):
at this concert, and I want tolike get out of here, quick
escape, or traffic, being stuckin traffic or a tunnel.
I was like, so I was able toexpress it.
And then, of course, going totherapy and meeting with someone
who was able to put words to itto give me strategies to
explore.
Like I'm I mean, I integrate interms of therapy.
(09:55):
Like I'm a cognitive behavioraltherapist, which means, you
know, looking at your thoughtpatterns, the things that make
you really anxious and nervous,and then what can you do about
it?
Like action-oriented.
But I also had regular talktherapy, which is like, how does
this link back to earlymessages I got about feelings?
Right?
Like it's okay to be anxious.
You're not, you know, I I thinkwomen are socialized too.
(10:16):
We we're supposed to multitask.
We're supposed to just, likeyou said, push through
everything.
And, you know, we hit a wallsometimes.
And I think I hit a wallearlier.
You know, obviously, kind ofearly adulthood, I hit a wall
about going out into the world,being an independent person,
establishing a career, you know,um, just being an adult.
(10:37):
I think, and that's often atime that now adults like women
in midlife now see this oftenwith their kids.
Is the kid achieving flight?
Is the kid getting a job?
Um, is the kid still living athome?
Like, and kind of that worryabout um about kids and often
using the words like my child isanxious or my child has ADHD,
or it's used so freely, like I'mamazed because we just didn't
(11:01):
have that.
So I think that there was verylittle information.
In fact, when I went to thebookstore, I said I tried to
read everything I could.
First of all, there was no um,there was no Google.
unknown (11:13):
There was no Google.
Dr. Lori Davis (11:14):
So whatever you could find to read, you went to
a bookstore, right?
And so I would walk aroundlooking for books about anxiety.
And I remember there was onebook called The Anxiety Disease,
and it was like agroundbreaking book.
And I I read it like 10 times,you know, because it was like
putting words to my experience.
But now, you know, you can go,you can go to Barnes Noble or go
(11:38):
on Amazon.
I mean, you you know how manybooks there are on mental health
and anxiety and nutrition andhealth.
And I mean, there's so muchavailable that's almost
dizzying, like what had youknow, try to filter what's good.
Back then there was hardlyanything.
So, you know, I appreciate howmuch uh focus on mental health
(11:58):
has has changed.
Yeah.
Oh gosh.
Um, and I think, you know, forwomen going through midlife, I'm
so thrilled also that theguidelines around menopause are
changing and the HRT thing, andlike, you know, it it's only a
positive thing.
Yeah.
It only can be a positivething.
Michele Folan (12:15):
We have so much more than our mothers had.
Yes.
You know, the resources that wehave are so much better.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Yeah.
Michele Folan (12:21):
I'm gonna take a real quick break, and then when
we come back, I want to talkabout from a clinical
perspective where anxiety comesfrom.
Quick pause because if you'rehere, you already know this
isn't just a health podcast.
Yes, we talk about nutrition,strength, and taking care of
(12:41):
your body and midlife, but wealso talk about life,
relationships, energy,boundaries, and what really
matters in this season.
This isn't about perfection orshrinking yourself.
It's about staying strong,curious, connected, and actually
enjoying the years ahead.
If this resonates, share theepisode with a friend who'd
(13:02):
appreciate the conversation andfollow us on Instagram at asking
for a friend underscore pod.
All right, we're back.
Dr.
Davis, how do genetics, earlylife experience, and then
nervous system wiring contributeto anxiety?
Dr. Lori Davis (13:23):
So that's really an excellent question.
And uh people often ask that,you know, why do I have anxiety?
You know, I don't like it.
Why do I have it?
So having anxiety really comesfrom varied places.
It comes from, in part,biology.
Studies do show that if youhave a close relative who has
anxiety, uh, you have a higherlikelihood of having anxiety
(13:45):
yourself.
That is true.
It comes from earlyexperiences, people who have uh
early loss, maybe of a parent,childhood illness.
They there's early trauma.
They suffered, uh they werepart of a natural disaster, you
know, they were surrounded bydomestic violence, right?
They were this, you know, uhthe victim of uh violence,
(14:07):
interpersonal violence in someway.
So there are those earlyexperiences that combine with
your biology.
So not everyone who has theseexperiences are necessarily
going to become an anxiousperson.
They may become scattered, theymay shut down, you know.
So some people kind of veertoward anxiety.
So there is a physiologicalcomponent combined with your
(14:30):
early experiences.
There's a third piece, though,which I think is something worth
exploring for everyone.
And um, there are someexercises I have in my book
about that.
What early messages did you getabout your feelings?
So we all internalize things,messages we got.
Like for some people who havelike generalized anxiety or
health anxiety, they gotmessages, not to blame any
(14:52):
parents, just no one's perfecthere.
No one's a robot.
They got messages, the world isa dangerous place.
Be careful when you cross thestreet, be careful when you do
this.
This could happen.
They're so worried about thewell-being of their kids, they
might at times overdo it, right?
Or over monitor the kids'behavior.
So there's a message theworld's dangerous.
(15:12):
You really have to be on thelookout all the time.
So that can kind of kick upfeelings of anxiety, or just
push through your feelings, youknow, like there's no such thing
as anxiety.
Like forget about anger.
Like, so bury your feelings.
Burying one's feelings,eventually you're gonna hit a
wall with that big time, right?
Right.
Where the feelings are gonnaget the better of you and you're
(15:34):
gonna start to get panicattacks or depressed or angry,
and it's you're gonna hit awall.
You can't do that forever.
So early messages aboutfeelings.
And and anyone who's listeningnow, ask yourself, what messages
did I get about my feelings?
What messages did I get aboutthe world as a safe place?
About relationships, whatmessages did I get about that?
(15:56):
They're wonderful, but yeah,you can have some problems, or
relationships are like it's toochaotic.
So we all we're like sponges.
Kids soak up everything intheir environment naturally,
because they want to know what'sgoing on.
So those three pieces combinedcan conspire to cause anxiety in
certain individuals.
Michele Folan (16:15):
So then how does menopause change the nervous
system?
Because I guess I'm trying tovet whether or not if you view
menopause as causing anxiety, oris it more an unmasking or
intensifying of existingvulnerability?
Dr. Lori Davis (16:35):
Yeah, I think it's both.
Okay.
I think both are reallyimportant.
So obviously, with the decreaseof certain hormones, that
completely disrupts sleep.
Not having sleep causesirritability.
It causes worry.
I'm not sleeping.
Am I going to be able toperform well, get my job done,
take care of the kids?
(16:55):
Um, I have a to-do list that'sreally long.
So certain um again, hormonalchanges, even about the body,
you know, what's happening tome?
I look in the mirror, I don'trecognize myself anymore.
I'm changing.
This is too much for me.
I feel overwhelmed.
So I think that the literalchanges from menopause, what
(17:16):
you're talking about, can causeanxiety.
I also think that underlyingissues re-emerge.
During midlife, there's a bigthere's an evaluation, like,
where am I?
Am I happy in my job if someoneis working and has a career?
Am I happy not working?
You know, not to say that umbeing a homemaker isn't work, it
(17:37):
is, but you know, am I happywith where I'm at basically?
Am I happy in my relationships?
Do I want to be living whereI'm living?
So there's another piece aboutmidlife itself that I think
causes women going through inthis age range to reevalu
everything, and then that causesanxiety.
So you talk about chicken andegg.
I think they're both working intandem.
(18:00):
There are physiologicalchanges, neurotransmitters
change.
The brain also, you know, bebet starting around, you know,
40s, the brain also starts tochange.
Our memories, you know, part ofthat's menopause, part of it is
aging.
Our brains start to slow down.
We don't, you know, we don'tprocess as quickly.
So we feel the changes we can'tremember.
(18:20):
Some of that's again frombiological changes during
menopause, and some of it's justphase of life.
So I think there's so muchthat's working at the same time
that you can't get an exactanswer.
So I think they're both causingum things.
The that underlyingvulnerability for sure.
If you're perfectionistic bynature, right, and all of a
(18:43):
sudden these um your memory'snot as sharp, or you know, you
wake up in the morning, you'relike, I'm so tired.
Like, I need more coffee, whichalso makes you more anxious, by
the way.
I know if you drink too muchcoffee.
We and I fall into that trapall the time.
Some days I'm much I'm betterthan others.
So you feel tired, right?
You can't perform, your brain'snot working the same way, then
(19:03):
that causes you worry.
If you're perfectionistic andthat's your underlying way of
coping, and that gets disrupted,and you feel like you're not
handling things as well, thenthat just kind of makes you more
worried.
So you see, all these thingsare working together.
If you are a person who's adoer and all of a sudden you
don't get out of the houseanymore, right?
(19:24):
You're not happy with whereyou're at.
Well, being in the house cancause um anxiety because you
need to be out and engaged withthe world.
So there are so many pieces tothis.
Michele Folan (19:32):
Oh gosh.
And then do you think anxietypresents differently in say
post-menopause or menopause thanit does when, say, you're 14?
Do we respond to itdifferently?
Dr. Lori Davis (19:45):
That's an interesting question.
I think how what whatattributions we make about it
are different.
The symptoms of anxiety are thesymptoms of anxiety, right?
So if you if you look in adiagnostic book, so heart
racing, tightness in the chest,stomach ache, irritability,
feeling on edge, can'tconcentrate, right?
(20:05):
Feeling like your headspinning, um, numbness and
tingling, right?
Feeling spacey, like those arethe those are symptoms of
anxiety.
Those are universal, whetheryou're 13 or whether you're 50.
Like those are the symptoms.
What we think about them isdifferent.
Like when woman is in midlife,it might be like, oh no, you
(20:26):
know, who am I now?
Like, what's happening to me?
I have no control overeverything.
I'm not, you know, I don't knowif a 13-year-old is like, oh, I
don't have control over this,or you know, they're just sort
of like trying to deal withtheir symptoms, or maybe tell
hopefully they can tell theirparents about it, right?
Something doesn't feel right,or hopefully someone at school
will notice something.
But I think as women, we're sowired to be achievers.
(20:49):
You know, it's like way toomuch at this point, right?
We're like constantly pushing.
It's we don't rest enough, wedon't relax enough.
Like that's really importanttoo.
So I think we make theseattributions.
Uh-oh, something's wrong.
I'm not productive enough.
I'm not functioning.
My memory's going out thewindow.
I can't find anything.
You know, I'm not the person Iwas.
Who am I anyway?
(21:09):
You know, there's just so muchstatic around that at this point
in life.
So how we think about it, Ithink, is very different.
Michele Folan (21:17):
Right.
Yeah, there's a lot.
There's a lot of layers there.
And then and then it's like, isam I, is, am I truly anxious,
or is it that my hormones arewacky?
And then you've got that wholelayer of of concern as well.
There are many forms ofanxiety.
(21:38):
I know generalized worry,there's panic, there's health
anxiety, relationship anxiety,social travel.
Dr. Lori Davis (21:48):
Travel phobia, yes.
But there's there's f specificphobias like fear of dogs or
snakes or what yeah.
So there are basic phobias too.
Yes.
Michele Folan (21:57):
Do you see something more often?
In in these women?
Dr. Lori Davis (22:01):
The thing I see most in since we're speaking
about kind of midlife is kind ofthat generalized anxiety.
Generalized anxiety disorder issort of like that worry, the
constant worry.
What if this happens?
What if this doesn't happen?
And then the desire to fix itsomehow, like, okay, let me make
it happen, or it's what if thishappens to my kid?
(22:22):
What if someone gets sick?
What if I can't handle it all?
These huge questions, right?
This generalized worry.
When you have worries that arethat big, it's very hard to
figure out what to do for thembecause they're so big in your
head.
It's like a mushroom cloud overyour head.
If you break down things intosmaller pieces, then you can
come up with strategies andplans and set goals and follow
(22:44):
through.
But I do see this big worry.
Where am I going in life?
What do I want?
Who am I?
What's going to happen to mykids?
Are they going to be okay?
It's so big.
And sometimes with that comespanic.
Um, sometimes not.
Sometimes it's just a boatloadof worry and you can't turn it
off.
Michele Folan (23:01):
Yeah.
Dr. Lori Davis (23:02):
Like it's just ruminating, you know, ruminating
worry all the time.
Michele Folan (23:05):
And then what about the patient that says, I
know I'm anxious, but I justdon't know what I'm anxious
about?
Dr. Lori Davis (23:12):
Yeah.
Michele Folan (23:13):
It it it comes out of nowhere.
Dr. Lori Davis (23:15):
Yeah.
Michele Folan (23:15):
Kind of.
Dr. Lori Davis (23:16):
Yeah.
That's that's an interestingphenomenon.
Um, because, you know, whenpeople come into therapy, for
example, I always ask, like, whyare you coming into treatment
now?
You know, and they're like,because I just have panic
attacks, and I'm like, well,what's going on?
I don't know.
My life is the same.
It's the same as it's been thelast two years.
Why I don't know why I'mgetting panicky now.
And I usually say, it there's astockpiling effect.
(23:39):
Like, we all deal withstressors, we tuck away what we
can, we manage the best we can.
And I think people, like Isaid, people hit a wall
sometimes.
So they're like, but nothinghappened like, you know, this
past year.
So I think, yes, some of itcould be menopausal changes,
bodily changes, brain changes,of course.
(24:00):
But some of it is the copingstrategies you're not that
you've been using for a longtime are not working so well,
like avoiding your feelings,right?
Or not seeing your friendsanymore, or being able to
approach large issues that arekind of getting at you anyway,
like, do I want to relocate?
Do I want to switch careers?
Right?
Am I again, am I happy in arelationship?
(24:22):
You know, and so if you don'tdeal with those underlying
pieces, you can find yourselfall of a sudden panicking and
peep feeling really worried.
And that's why people arebaffled.
Like, why is this happeningnow?
Even good things can causeanxiety.
Like, you know, kids gettingmarried, like that's a really
happy event.
But it's like a lot ofjuggling, and um, there's
(24:45):
financial issues, there's youknow, there's so much loaded in
that.
So even happy stuff in life,job promotions, anything like
that, can people discount that?
Happy things also cause anxietybecause it's a change, and
people don't respond well tochange, even if it's change they
want, or it's re it'saffirming, it's still change,
(25:06):
and and people can get reallythrown off when there's a lot of
change.
So people minimize the goodstuff that that can cause you
distress too.
Yeah.
Oh, well, I should just bereally happy because this is
happening.
Well, okay, well, now I have tofork over this much money for
like an engagement party.
You know what I mean?
Like it's it's not just thingsare just not one way or the
(25:27):
other, you know.
And um, so I think people canbe mystified.
Michele Folan (25:31):
Yeah, I'm I'm only laughing because I've
watched my sisters go throughthis with wedding planning.
And I'm like, I am not in ahurry for my children to get to
get married.
So you you do talk about thisthing called the worry loop.
Is that kind of the same thingwhere it it's hard to break off
(25:51):
that hamster wheel?
Dr. Lori Davis (25:53):
Yeah, I think that um once people get caught
up with a particular worry, itkind of takes on a life of its
own.
It kind of grows and then it'ssort of like, yeah, it's like
whether you want to think of itas a hamster wheel or a carousel
ride, like you can't get off.
It keeps going round and roundand round, and it becomes this
worry loop that doesn't stop.
(26:14):
And I think that's when it'simportant to think about literal
strategies.
How do you stop that loop?
Uh, and that can range fromwhich I do is I like I put I
click the microphone on myiPhone and I go, okay, I'm doing
worry time.
And I go, I'm really worriedabout this, and what if this
happens and what doesn't happen?
And I give myself carte blancheto just like let it rip, just
(26:36):
get all the worries out.
And I set a timer and I do thatfor a few minutes and I feel
some relief.
It just allows me to not bottleit up, to get it out, and then
I shift to a different activity.
So that's one way to break theworry loop.
Another way is breaking theworry down, as I mentioned
earlier, into smaller pieces.
Like if you're worried about uhyou want to change careers,
(26:59):
it's so big.
You break it down into what aresome early steps I can do?
And I know you do coaching andstuff about things, you
understand this, like, okay,what's the thing you can do this
week?
You can go online and readabout different careers.
That's it.
So it's a way to manage theworry, make it smaller with
actionable steps.
So there are a number of waysto break that worry loop because
(27:21):
just telling yourself, oh, stopworrying, like that doesn't do
anything.
Or invalidating your worry,what's wrong with you?
Why are you worrying aboutthis?
Get over it.
Like, you know, other peopleare doing better.
What's wrong with you?
Like, that's just negativeself-talk.
Right.
That's like this art from Icall that negative trash talk.
Like that's not helping you inany way.
So there are different ways tobreak that worry loop, but it's
(27:43):
very, very common.
We all have our loops, wheneverthat's how we do.
Michele Folan (27:48):
I'm sitting here nodding.
Yeah, Davis is sitting heretalking.
I'm like, yep, yep, yep, yep,yep.
Yeah.
Yeah, if it's not me, it'ssomebody I know.
It's everyone.
Yeah.
I know.
And then women often say thattheir anxiety is worse at night.
Is there a clinical reason forthat?
Dr. Lori Davis (28:07):
It's interesting.
Some studies show that actuallycortisol, which is our primary
stress hormone, is actuallyhighest in the morning.
So there are a lot of women whoreport when they wake up being
flooded with anxiety to thepoint that it's hard to get out
of bed, or they jump out of bedand have to get an action right
away.
So studies do show earlymorning actually can be a
difficult time.
(28:28):
But I would say thatbehaviorally, the evening is
tough for a lot of peoplebecause you are we're also
scheduled during the day thatyou're in the zone.
I have to wake up, do this formy family, go to work, or you
run errands, make dinner,whatever it is, work out, find
time for everything.
And then at night, you've gotbreathing room, and then things
(28:51):
can come flooding in, you know,your underlying thoughts and
feelings.
So when you have time to sitstill and you're not attending
to it earlier, then there it is.
Yeah.
It's coming in.
And when you get into bed, forexample, that's a time to take
it down.
Your brain's still going,especially during menopause, the
brain doesn't shut off.
So then you kind of get floodedwith anxiety at night.
(29:14):
Uh, and that's also why it's soimportant at night to try to
take it down by like notwatching too much news,
especially now, trying to watch,watch a funny uh sitcom on
Netflix for 30 minutes, or stareat the wall, or snuggle with
your pet or your loved one, ordo something that's going to
help bring your nervous systemdown.
Uh, do some gentle, I didgentle stretching, open up, open
(29:36):
up the hip flexors, the lowerback that get really tense, you
know, kind of take a warm bath,take it all down, which can then
help take the busy mind down aswell.
But there's more time to thinkat night.
Yeah.
When you're supposed to berelaxing.
When you're quiet.
Sometimes people get anxious.
They're not, they're not intheir usual habit.
(29:56):
They have all the time in theworld to be like contemplating
the universe, you know.
Michele Folan (30:01):
Well, I tried uh deep breathing exercises.
Those those help me anyanything that where I have to
count.
So I don't think about what Ihave to do the next day.
I just I'm counting.
Dr. Lori Davis (30:13):
Which ones do you like?
Michele Folan (30:15):
Um, I I breathe in for eight, hold for seven,
exhale for four.
Right, yeah.
Dr. Lori Davis (30:22):
Like a four, seven, eight breathing.
Yeah, that's a that's an easyone.
That's a really good one,actually.
I do that one too.
And box breathing is supereasy.
Michele Folan (30:30):
Yeah.
And can you explain what boxbreathing is for anyone that
doesn't know what that is?
Dr. Lori Davis (30:34):
Yeah, this is like this is like the easiest
thing to remember.
It's like you breathe in forfour, hold for four, breathe out
for four, and hold it for fourmore, and you just do it like
five to ten times.
All these things, right?
They reset your nervous system,they give your brain a rest.
It feels like something you cancontrol.
(30:56):
I do, I do uh box breathingbefore bed every night, every
single night.
It takes no time.
And I find myself just like itjust bring, you know how the
breathing is, it's just becausewe breathe we we breathe from
from the top of our chest whenwe're anxious and running
around.
And you know, we don't havetime to breathe sometimes.
(31:16):
And so it forces you, as youknow, you start breathing from
the diaphragm, which is here.
Shallow breathing is comingfrom here.
And that can cause you to getmore stressed instead of taking
it down.
So a box breathing, any anytype of breathing, any um leaves
on a stream exercise is areally good visualization
(31:38):
exercise.
You take your worries and youput them on a leaf and then you
visualize it going down thestream.
It's like, bye-bye, worry.
And then you take the nextworry out of your head and you
put it on a leaf, and then it'sgoing down the stream.
Bye-bye, worry.
And these are just ways tocause a distraction, a delay,
and also to feel like you'redoing something.
And it makes it can make youfeel like, yeah, I'm I'm really
(32:00):
affecting some change here.
They were these strategies dowork, you know, but you you have
to do them kind of regularly.
Yeah.
Michele Folan (32:11):
And you had uh done a post or real recently,
and you mentioned this a littlebit earlier, but that you
watching old reruns, thatpredictability, that kind of
it's that mindless.
It's kind of why like I I watchHD TV at night because they're
they've got money and they'regoing to buy a house.
Dr. Lori Davis (32:33):
I mean, it's it's I used to love I used to
love house hunters years ago.
Like I never missed it.
Michele Folan (32:38):
Yeah, I watch House Hunters all the time.
And I know most sleep expertswill tell you not to watch TV at
night because of the bluelight, whatever.
But we watch, I can't tell youhow many times we've watched
reruns of The Sopranos.
Now, Sopranos in itself is nota relaxing show to watch, but
we've seen it so many times.
(33:00):
It it's the predictabilitypiece.
Does that really work?
Dr. Lori Davis (33:03):
Uh, I think it works for many people.
I I think it works for me.
Yeah, I agree.
Look, like watching, you know,violent movies before you go to
bed is probably not a good idea.
But the familiarity piece, Ithink, is is there's really
something to it.
Like a few months ago, I had Iwas working on the book, and I
was like, I had a lot of work todo between that and my
practice.
So I just decided to watch thewhole series of Sex in the City,
(33:26):
uh, the origin, you know, theoriginal series.
And I watched it every nightbecause I knew exactly what was
going to happen.
I knew who the people were, Iknew when I was gonna laugh, I
knew when I was gonna feel sador whatever.
I found it so comforting.
And there are people who also,to your point, watch.
Um I've met a lot of people whowatch Law and Order for some
(33:47):
reason, like two in the morningif they can't sleep.
And my first reaction was like,well, that's like crime stuff.
Like that's they said, but Iknow I it's like seeing a family
on TV.
Like, I know all those peopleand I know all the episodes.
So if it works for you, great.
For other people, it's it canbe stimulating.
I think there's no one sizefits all about worry and anxiety
(34:10):
treatment and you know, stressmanagement.
If it works for you, good,great, keep doing it.
If it doesn't work, justacknowledge it and try something
else.
Michele Folan (34:18):
And what are first line treatments for
anxiety?
How do you match the patient upto where to begin?
That's a good question.
Dr. Lori Davis (34:26):
There are some patients who come in where
they're really in a panic andit's hard for them to function
and get through the day-to-day.
So there may be a sort of aconversation about, you know, do
you do you want to think aboutmedication?
I'm very middle of the roadabout medication.
I think a lot of anxiety can betreated without medication, but
I'm not anti-medication.
(34:47):
So sometimes medication is apiece of it to help stabilize
someone's symptoms.
And I think people can oftensay negative things about
themselves.
Why can't I do this on my own?
Why do I have to rely onmedication?
And I think it's sort of partof being, you know, we get mean
mean to ourselves.
And I think sometimes it canhelp someone stabilize enough to
then do the deeper work aboutwhat the heck is going on in my
(35:07):
life right now.
But the first line treatmentreally is uh for anxiety is um
exposure work.
That's the gold standard, whichis basically if you start
getting anxious and you areavoiding things, if you're
saying no to social invitationsand you don't want to see your
friends anymore, or you'rehaving trouble driving or
flying, the goal is for you toget back out there, expose
(35:30):
yourself to the fear.
When you can approach yourfears little by little, your
anxiety gets kicked up.
That's true.
You're gonna get more anxious.
And as long as you keepapproaching, your anxiety will
start to come down and staydown.
So, so that exposure work iskey for reducing anxiety and
having it stay low.
(35:52):
And it really studies haveshown there's a lot, there's
there's so much research insupport of that.
The other piece is we all havethought patterns around anxiety.
So cognitive behavioraltherapies is also the other
piece to it, which is if you goon a job interview and you think
no one's ever gonna hire me,see, this is never gonna work
(36:12):
out, you know, like thisself-fulfilling prophecy, not
that it's your fault, but we getinto thought patterns that
aren't necessarily true.
Like maybe you're not gettinghired because the job market
isn't great right now, or theeconomy stinks, right?
Right?
Or maybe you're older andthere's an age discrimination,
like maybe there's a real issuehere.
I think we get we get caught upin these explanations that may
(36:34):
not be totally true.
Like my friends don't like meanymore.
I hear this a lot.
Well, is it true that theydon't like you anymore, or
they're really busy, you know,they're they're you know,
they're busy with their family,or there's some problem going on
that they're dealing with.
Is it is it necessarily becausethey don't like you anymore?
So it's challenging thethoughts that people have
(36:54):
because we have faulty thoughts.
We have faulty thoughtpatterns, right?
Um people say, yeah, I I I'mnot attractive anymore, right?
Or um is that really true?
Or you have you're experiencingsome bodily changes from
menopause or perimenopause,right?
Does that mean you're notattractive?
No, maybe it means you need tolift some weights or right or
(37:15):
get a larger size clothing for awhile, but does it mean you're
not attractive?
You know, so we all go to theseplaces.
And part of the therapy ischallenging those thoughts and
creating a more realisticportrait of what's really going
on.
Because we can go to very bigplaces.
Um, so it's challenging thethoughts, looking at faulty
(37:36):
patterns.
We all do it combined withapproaching your fears.
And people say, Michelle, like,I don't want to approach my
fears.
Like, if I'm afraid of likegoing through tunnels or going
on bridges, why the heck would Iwant to do that?
It's supremely uncomfortable.
Why do I want to torturemyself?
If you don't, then the anxietywill remain, but it won't get
(37:59):
better.
So there is a little bit of umthere has to be some pain before
the gain, like it's gonna beuncomfortable, but it works
because we're a little bit likelaboratory rats.
You have to approach, it'sconditioning.
If you start avoiding things,you're just feeding anxiety.
So those are kind of maintreatments for anxiety.
This old-fashioned talktherapy, going for support,
(38:21):
exploring your childhood, um,talking about relationships like
that counts too.
So there are a number of waysto approach um anxiety and and
therapy and depression and andum self-esteem and and also just
dealing with midlife andchange.
unknown (38:40):
Right.
Michele Folan (38:40):
And then are there advances in anxiety
treatment that you're seeing nowand on the horizon?
Dr. Lori Davis (38:48):
There are um, and I'm not an expert in in this
area of of research, butthey're looking at things like
changes in the brain andstimulating the brain and new
medications and uh new types oftherapies.
So I think that there's beensome advancement in terms of um
seeing anxiety markersgenetically, which I read about,
(39:10):
I don't know, with sometimewithin the past year, which is
interesting because if they canidentify kind of those uh those
markers, maybe they can dosomething about that.
Uh we've been, you know, we'rewired to be anxious.
We need anxiety because ithelped it helps us survive.
Survive.
Like if someone's chasing youdown the street, you know, like
(39:31):
uh, or if you like were in thecave and you know, you could
die, like anxiety helped you bealert, right?
It tells you like fight orflight or freeze, or you know,
you're trying you're trying tosave yourself.
And so that anxiety kind ofthen applies to our lives today.
Like you someone, a grizzlybear might not be chasing you,
but you might be perceiving somethreat in your life.
(39:52):
It could be an emotionalthreat.
So I think there areadvancements sort of
genetically.
People are looking at that.
I think there's a lot ofresearch on family history and
how much that may relate to thedevelopment of anxiety.
So I think there's a lot ofresearch going on about anxiety.
Um, how that will, what thatwill look like, you know, five
(40:13):
years from now, I'm not totallysure.
But people are really workingon it, and I think that's very
encouraging.
But anxiety is always going tobe part of the human condition
because we need it.
It's always gonna be there,right?
It's really just managing it.
And when the alarm bell kicksoff too much, uh-oh, uh-oh,
that's when you might developsort of like an anxiety
disorder.
Michele Folan (40:33):
All right.
And, you know, we know thatwomen, as our estrogen declines,
cortisol does kick up.
And so for women that havestarted experiencing anxiety and
they it's they feel like it'scoming out of nowhere, just for
them to understand that they'renot broken, that this this is
sometimes a very normal part ofmenopause, correct?
Dr. Lori Davis (40:58):
It it is, it is.
And I think, you know, a phrasethat I think has been helpful
to me and sometimes to others isexpect it, accept it.
Anxiety is not ever look, noteveryone gets a kick up in
anxiety during menopause, but Iknow a fair amount of people
who've had that experience forwhatever reason.
(41:19):
Yeah, understand that it it isa part, it is a combination of
body and brain changes and lifechanges and re-evaluation.
And if you can accept that andnormalize it for yourself, then
you can figure out what to dofor yourself instead of fighting
it.
Oh no, I shouldn't be anxious.
Oh no, what's wrong with me?
(41:40):
You know, the things thatagain, the mean things we say to
ourselves.
So I think that um it is apart, anxiety is a part of this
time of life.
And people are shocked.
What happened?
One day I was fine.
The next minute I heard someonetalk about they were in the car
and they were driving to work.
Next thing you know, boom.
(42:00):
They're panicking and they'relike, What what happened?
All of a sudden everythingfeels different.
Well, yeah, you know, thingsare changing physiologically.
Michele Folan (42:10):
Yeah.
Dr. Lori Davis (42:11):
So, um, yeah.
Michele Folan (42:13):
So I'm curious, this is kind of a personal
question.
What is one of your coreself-care must-haves?
How do you manage your day?
Dr. Lori Davis (42:23):
It's a good question.
Um, I do a couple of differentthings, and I always encourage
people to engage in trial anderror.
And part of the thing that Iwrite about in my book is like,
here are a bunch of differentthings that might work for you.
Use a combination of them.
If it doesn't work, no sweat.
Don't be down on yourself, noteverything's gonna work.
So the things that work for meare if I'm really anxious, I do
(42:45):
take a warm bath a lot.
Not hot baths because duringmenopause, right, if the water's
too hot, it's gonna dry outyour skin, like our skin
changes.
Um, don't, you know, don't haveyour phone right next to the
bathtub where you're checkingsocial media or the news while
you're trying to take a bath.
So a warm bath, 15 minutes,helps relax.
(43:06):
It also gives you a timeout.
And so that's one thing I do.
I, as I said, I do boxbreathing at least once a day,
probably a few days.
If I'm super anxious, so thisis kind of embarrassing, but
like when I'm traveling, I havea mini heating pad.
I take the heating pad and Ipack it.
And so if I'm feeling reallyanxious, I turn on the heating
(43:28):
pad and I just put my handsunder the heating pad.
And just the warmth kind of andsome breathing, it just kind of
relaxes me.
So that's one thing that worksfor me.
Um, I actually a bottle of coldwater, you know, like I I can
get sort of socially anxious orI can get nervous doing
interviews and stuff.
So sometimes I'll have a bottleof cold water or like a stress
(43:51):
ball or something like that.
So I do that.
Um, I try to talk to a friend.
If I'm really anxious, I willcall a friend and say, tell me
about.
About your day because it getsme out of my experience.
Maybe I've and maybe I canoffer something up, or maybe we
just laugh about somethingsilly.
Um, I do watch silly pet videoson social media.
Not that pets are silly becauseI love pets and snuggling with
(44:14):
pets is a great thing.
But watching silly videos, justlike watching silly sitcoms, I
also like dramas.
I'll get absorbed in a drama.
But yeah, watching the videos,I've definitely cut my news
consumption a lot.
Okay.
And that has definitely helped.
Like 20 minutes in the morningand then maybe 20 minutes at
night, and that's it.
Because it's diminishingreturns.
You're gonna get all worked up.
(44:35):
The news is still gonna bewaiting for you.
And if something huge happens,believe me, someone's gonna tell
you.
Michele Folan (44:40):
You'll know about it.
Dr. Lori Davis (44:41):
You'll know about it.
That is a big change, you know,that I've made.
There are so many things I do.
I do a lot of gentlestretching, light yoga, and that
helps me a lot.
Just like I said, keeping thechest area open.
We often sit like this, youknow, we're so busy, we're like
the shoulders are up, you know,we're leaning forward on our
phones.
So, like bodily, that makes youmore anxious.
(45:02):
So doing body checks, shouldersback, making sure like they're
back here, not here.
I because I'm definitelyscrunching up my neck,
tightening my tummy, you know.
So I do visualization exercisestoo.
I imagine safe space.
My safe being on the beach lateafternoon, no one's there.
There's maybe a gull ahead, thesand is warm, and it's just
(45:24):
quiet, and I imagine myselfthere for three minutes.
That's called the safe spacevisualization works beautifully.
There are so many strategies,and some of them really work for
me.
I do challenge my thoughts.
I do break problems, bigproblems into smaller pieces and
then come up with an actionplan.
Um, and I try not to make myto-do list too long because you
(45:46):
know, sometimes they're like thesize of your living room, all
the things you have to do.
So I go, all right, what do Iliterally need to do today?
What's the necessary thing?
And then I have a longer list.
Like these are things I need todo in the next few weeks,
right?
Someone's birthday's coming up,I need to get a gift or
whatever.
But what do I need to do today?
Make it smaller.
You the thing when things aretoo big, it's like, ah, I just
(46:09):
want to like escape or I can'thandle this.
Make everything smaller.
Michele Folan (46:13):
Yeah.
How do you uh eat an elephantone bite at a time?
And that's yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
All right, Dr.
Lori Davis, where can thelisteners find your work and
learn more about your book?
This is your anxiety onmenopause.
Yes.
Dr. Lori Davis (46:30):
So um, I have my Instagram account at Dr.
Laurie Davis where I talk aboutI have anxiety too, because I
do.
And so I try to provide tipsand strategies and inspiration
for living with anxiety andbeing productive and having a
meaningful life despite anxiety.
And I'm on Facebook as well,Dr.
Laurie Davis.
Um, my book is coming outactually in November.
(46:52):
Um, New Harbiger Publications,they've been great, and they do
a lot of psychology books, andit's a workbook.
So there are tons of exercisesto write in, write letters.
Um, I really break it down intohere's how to do this, try
this, try that, and help youcome up with your personalized
anxiety plan.
Not everybody can afford to goto therapy.
(47:13):
Right.
Or you can go to therapy anduse a workbook.
So the fact that you want tomake it accessible to more
people, that's a lot of what mybook is about.
So they can find my book inNovember, it should be on Amazon
and Barnes and Noble orwhatever.
And I'll probably be givingsome talks about it.
And um, I do all the things inthe book.
Like this is stuff I've tried,everything in the book, and it's
(47:36):
all evidence-based, allresearch, but I've lived it all.
Michele Folan (47:39):
Yeah, this is fantastic.
And I want to make sure thatwhen your book does come out in
November, you ping me so that Imake sure we tie the bow around
this with this conversation andand your book launch because
that's absolutely and then wecan talk about it.
Yeah.
So yeah, this is exciting.
We can do a live or something,but I I would love I would love
(48:00):
to do that.
Dr. Lori Davis (48:01):
That would be great.
Michele Folan (48:02):
I really enjoyed this conversation, Dr.
Davis.
Um, I it just really normalizesthis for women at this phase of
life.
And I really hope that even ifyou listeners may not feel that
anxiety is is daunting you, butmaybe someone in your life is
(48:23):
that you uh pass this episode onto them.
Dr. Lori Davis (48:26):
Thank you.
Help is available, definitely.
Michele Folan (48:29):
Yeah, thank you for being here today.
Thanks, Michelle.
Have a great day.
You too.
Bye.
Before you go, thank you forbeing here.
If you want to go a littledeeper, make sure you check out
the show notes for this episode.
That's where I link anything wementioned, resources, partners,
or tools I actually use andtrust.
(48:49):
And if you're not already onthe Asking for a Friend
community newsletter, that'swhere I share practical midlife
tips, favorite finds, recipes,and the things that don't always
make it onto the podcast orInstagram.
You'll find the link to join inthe show notes.
Take care, and I'll see younext week.
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