March 30, 2026 • 30 mins
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Police Social Workers are not a new concept but until now there's not been a nationwide standard for how they are trained or how they are employed alongside police officers. Caroline Ban teaches at Valparaiso University and she has started the first public safety social work certificate program in the nation for people who have their masters in social work or are getting their MSW. Caroline talks about the how social workers can add something valuable to the police team that I know you'll appreciate.
Music is by Chris Haugen
Hey Chaplain Podcast Episode 137
Tags:
Social Workers, Co-responders, Education, Embedding, Mental Health, Officer Wellness, Police, Professor, Training, University, St. Louis, Valparaiso, Indiana, Missouri
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:03):
Welcome to Hey Chaplin.
My name is Jared Altic, and I'ma chaplain with the police
department.
The Hey Chaplin podcast is abouttalking to police officers and
other professionals in lawenforcement who say, Hey
Chaplin, I've got a story totell and some hard-earned wisdom
to share.
(00:25):
The guests on Hey Chaplin comefrom across the world, from the
LAPD to Scotland Yard, and fromsmall towns across rural
America.
They are sharing their wisdom sothat you don't have to learn the
hard way.
And as a patrol chaplain, Ithink you deserve something
positive and encouraging foronce.
(00:47):
Police social workers are not anew concept.
But until now, there's not beena nationwide standard for how
they are trained or how they areemployed alongside police
officers.
Caroline Bann teaches atValparaiso University, and she
has started the first publicsafety social work certificate
(01:09):
program in the nation for peoplewho have their masters in social
work or are getting their MSW.
Caroline talks about how thesocial workers in the police
department can add somethingvaluable to the police team that
I know that you're gonnaappreciate.
Here's Caroline Bann.
(01:33):
Hello, Caroline.
How are you?
SPEAKER_00 (01:35):
Hi, good thanks.
How are you?
SPEAKER_02 (01:37):
I'm doing pretty well.
I'm glad to get you on thephone.
You came highly recommended.
SPEAKER_00 (01:42):
Oh, thank you so much.
We'll see by the end of theinterview, right?
SPEAKER_02 (01:48):
So tell me a little bit about yourself.
Uh, what do you do for a living?
SPEAKER_00 (01:52):
Yeah, I'm an associate professor of social
work at Valparaiso University inIndiana.
Um, I I see myself as anaccidental professor because it
was never something that I evenknew was a real job when I was
growing up.
That's not kind of my family oforigin.
Um, and I'm really apractitioner at heart.
(02:12):
So I got into the field.
I was working in affordablehousing in um Minneapolis and
St.
Paul.
And I remember leaning over tothe person who worked down the
hall, and I was like, what isyour job?
Because that's the job that Iwant when I grow up.
She goes, Oh, I'm the socialworker.
And I was like, Great, I betterlearn what that is.
(02:32):
That sounds fun.
And really, what I wasinterested in, the reason I went
back is I wanted to become ajuvenile probation officer.
SPEAKER_02 (02:39):
Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_00 (02:39):
So I moved to St.
Louis and I started working inthe juvenile probation office on
the south side of the city uhand had uh mostly females on my
caseload, teenagers.
And that's where I had learnedum that I did not want to be a
juvenile probation officer.
So, you know, uh life is funnythat way.
But long story short, I ended upworking with uh a lot of mayors
(03:04):
in the Normandy School District,which is an interring suburb of
St.
Louis, and there were 24 mayorsand there were 12 police chiefs.
When I started working there,this was back in like 2010, you
know, everybody knew thatpolicing was challenging, but
nobody wanted to talk about it.
So after years and years, theyfinally said, okay, let's talk a
little bit about policing.
(03:25):
And that's how I kind of got thebug.
And that's kind of all I want todo now is study policing, study
police social work, um, and thethe interdisciplinary
collaboration there.
A police social worker, in mymind, is an embedded police
social worker.
That means they're hired by thepolice department and or hired
by another agency and they workwithin the police department.
(03:47):
So they are actually someone whois working directly with police,
whether it's in a wellnesscapacity with officers or more
focused on the community.
SPEAKER_02 (03:57):
Like victim services, yeah, something like
that.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (04:01):
Dating back to the 1900s, there were police social
workers.
The first police social workerswere called the police women.
They were all women, and theywere hired to work in police
departments, embedded socialworkers, and they worked on
women's issues, children'sissues, like runaway youth, and
a lot of social hygiene, whichis um the preventing the spread
(04:22):
of venereal diseases, which isover there.
So social workers have existedfor over a hundred years, and
yet we are still dealing withthe same issues they dealt with.
And I know this because I wentback and did a historical
research analysis looking at thevoices of policewomen.
And when I saw they were talkingabout lack of training, lack of
(04:43):
standardization.
So what we know from back thenis first of all, they talked a
lot about how the field was notat all standardized, but they
also couldn't really figure outwho they were.
And so, fast forward to today, Ithink that the reason I
developed this certificate, andit is only open to folks that
have their MSW degree or they'recurrently getting their MSW
(05:04):
degree.
And I'm doing that to helpstandardize the field.
The MSW degree is a is aspecialized social work degree.
SPEAKER_02 (05:12):
Master's in social work.
SPEAKER_00 (05:13):
Master's in social work, yeah.
Master's in social work.
So it's a specialized degree,and I think this is probably one
of the most highly specializedpositions in social work I can
think of.
Somebody told me that they wentfrom a barricade negotiation to
a dementia client to anindividual who was running away
(05:34):
from home and was LGBTQ.
I mean, the the story, you know,the range of populations that
you're working with is sodiverse.
Plus, try working in a hostsetting.
I'm sure you have no idea whatthis is like, Chaplin.
Were you the only representativeof your profession?
Yeah.
Right?
You're the only one.
You're supposed to have all theanswers.
(05:54):
You're supposed to explainyourself.
You're supposed to bearticulate, you're supposed to
stay in your lane.
So navigating all of that, plusyour own professional ethics and
values and confidentiality, Imean, it's a lot.
SPEAKER_02 (06:05):
Is it hard to study policing as an outsider?
SPEAKER_00 (06:08):
I'm sure it is.
I mean, yes, because it's adifferent culture, you know?
And I don't say that in a, youknow, a negative way.
I say that in just like it's adifferent hierarchy.
It's a different structure and adifferent system.
And I think until you've livedwhat it's like to put your life
on the line every day or to knowwhat it's like to have other
people do that, I how could youfully understand that?
(06:31):
You know, so as social workers,we try to meet people where
they're at.
Um, but I can't do that if Idon't really fully understand
what someone's going through orwhat their experience is.
You know, social workers come inwith a couple of things, a
systems mindset.
So this idea that like, whatelse is going on in this
person's life right now that iskind of creating the crisis
(06:53):
moment or the situation that wesee at hand.
And then two, good with kind ofthe follow-up, right?
And being able to take the time.
One of the things that I learnedabout with my experience with
police officers is just thereisn't a luxury of time.
I mean, you might be going fromone call to the next call to the
next call.
And the one call, it's uh, youknow, an 80-year-old individual
(07:14):
who has dementia.
And the next call, it's, youknow, someone who's experiencing
suicidal ideation.
SPEAKER_02 (07:20):
And then there's another call waiting.
SPEAKER_00 (07:22):
Another call waiting.
And so the idea of a socialworker, and I think what social
work can bring to a policeagency is maybe a little bit
more time.
I know in the field, I like torefer to them as high needs
clients, but I know some of mypolice colleagues will say
frequent flyers.
SPEAKER_01 (07:37):
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (07:38):
So that person that's calling 911 100 times a
week, the social worker can takethat off the police officer's
plate by helping them figure outwhat's really going on here.
Is there a way to reduce thecall volume to free up the
officer?
Or sometimes if a social workeris kind of in a co-responding
role, maybe they're embedded inthat police agency.
(07:58):
And once the scene is deemedsafe, that social worker is kind
of on scene and assisting withthe case.
You know, in that case, theremight be a moment where the
officer says, you know, lookslike this case is good.
Do you need any backup?
Are you good?
Do you feel safe?
Can you take time with thisclient?
And they're kind of handing itoff to the social worker.
But that requires a lot of kindof trust and relationship, I
(08:19):
think, um, between the officersand the social worker to really
understand their lanes,understand their roles and what
they can bring to the table.
But what I've heard, and I doresearch with police social
workers to try to understandthose roles, is I've heard that
one, they spend a lot of timeexplaining themselves and what
they do.
But after they get through thatand start to build some trust,
(08:40):
there's some pretty amazingthings that can happen where the
officers are sort of freed up todo what they're meant to do and
the time that they have, and thesocial worker can focus on those
things like referrals andgetting services to folks that
need it.
And and frankly, decriminalizingkind of those social issues, you
know, and not putting someone injail just because that's the
only option.
You know what I mean?
(09:00):
And I know officers don't liketo do that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_02 (09:02):
No, but but sometimes that does happen.
SPEAKER_00 (09:04):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (09:04):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (09:05):
There was a woman who kept calling the officers
because oh, her neighbors weredoing all kinds of things to her
driveway, like putting nails onher driveway.
But of course, this wasn'tactually happening because there
was like some hallucinationsthat were happening.
And so, you know, she keepscalling the police department
and finally she starts callingthe social worker.
She's like, they're not doinganything about it.
(09:26):
They're not doing anything aboutit.
And she's like, Well, um, youknow, what do they keep telling
you?
And they're like, Well, they saythat the nails aren't actually
there.
And they're like, Yeah, thenails aren't actually there.
You want me to come out and meetwith you?
And so they're, you know,meeting with the person and
talking about the, you know,actually going and like looking
at the driveway and be like,there aren't nails there, huh?
(09:47):
I wonder what happened.
Like, where did those nails go?
That's so interesting.
Because you saw them do that.
Yes, I saw them do that.
You know, like, so some of itagain is just like you're you're
listening with that person,you're you're holding up the
mirror, like, okay, you'reasking the questions, like,
okay, so this is what you say,and this is what I'm seeing.
And I just want to make sure Igot the story right.
(10:09):
And you're not being snarky, butyou know, after you've been
doing it for an hour, right?
You start to be like, okay,we're gonna have to wrap this up
now.
Um, you know, call me again.
But hopefully, after that call,that individual is calling the
social worker and not 911 everytime there's a few, right?
SPEAKER_02 (10:26):
That takes a lot, that takes a lot of love to deal
with people who are not beingvery lovable, you know, because
they're having they're having amental health episode, they're
hallucinating, they're paranoid,they're whatever, whatever it
is.
But but that takes a that takesa lot of love for your fellow
man to to be to say, I I willlay down on this barbed wire,
(10:50):
and I will I will take this sothe cops don't have to.
SPEAKER_00 (10:54):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And you know, it's it'sremembering often that like it's
the worst days of people'slives, right?
That that officers see them onor that those 911 calls, and it
doesn't mean that people don'thave better moments, but um
people are allowed to have baddays and bad periods of time in
their life.
I mean, just kind of a morepersonal story for me.
(11:16):
I've I've had a loved one whowas in a mental health crisis
and was picked up by policebecause a friend called out of
concern and was taken to ahospital setting.
And and I remember actuallygetting a call from the police
social worker and and thelieutenant just saying, like,
hey, we just want to let youknow this is where this person
(11:37):
is.
And, you know, that was abeautiful thing, right?
To have that kind of follow-upand care.
But also it was terrifying forme as an individual, right?
To know that, you know, I knowthe stats on when people
encounter police um and they'rehaving a mental health crisis,
right?
That that sometimes thosesuspicious behaviors really they
(11:58):
they look like fight or flight,right?
And if you're in fight or you'rein flight, like that looks
suspicious and that doesn'talways work out well.
I mean, we know the data on uh,you know, people with
experiencing a mental healthcrisis are 16 times more likely
to be fatally shot by police.
And I don't think anybody wantsthat outcome, right?
It's just that those are thingsyou think about, uh, I think on
(12:21):
the other side of that.
And so I think I think socialwork working with police is a
hopeful thing.
Um, because like you said, theit's not always if if you carry
a hammer, you expect things tolook like a nail because that's
how you're trained, right?
Um, and if you carry a differenttool set, and social workers are
just another tool in the toolbelt, really.
SPEAKER_02 (12:39):
What is the number one myth or misunderstanding
when it comes to police thinkingabout social workers?
SPEAKER_00 (12:48):
I'm laughing because this is something that social
workers told me through theresearch, and it was hug-a-thug.
Uh, and I thought that was likeyou're probably not laughing
because you're like, oh yeah,duh, we knew that.
Um, but I found that just thatwas a new new phrase for me.
And and what I think it meant islike I actually had a social
worker tell me that the officerwas afraid that she was gonna
(13:11):
make him touch or hug the personthat they were trying to arrest.
And she's like, I don't evenknow what you're talking about.
Like, what, what?
Uh no, and like it I think thatis a misperception of like, oh,
social workers just want to keeppeople out of jail at all costs,
or we we don't ever want to holdpeople accountable for anything
(13:32):
because everything, you know,could be based on, you know,
fueled by the environment or anegative situation that's
created another situation.
And I think the reality is like,no, social workers also work
with, you know, victims ofcrimes, right?
Like we we we want safecommunities, right?
And um yeah, we have a differentperspective, you know.
(13:54):
We we we're not all out therejust to put someone, you know,
in jail.
That's not what we want, right?
But like we we approach thingsmaybe from a different
perspective.
And I think that's the value,again, of having a social worker
and an officer working on aninterdisciplinary team is I
probably need an officer becausesafety is probably not going to
(14:14):
be my number one come from,right?
Yeah, and that probably scaresthe out of some officers, like
yeah, making, you know, and Ithink to me, that's how I got
into kind of training because Ithink that when we prepare
social workers a little bitbetter to understand the come
from of officers and vice versa,you know, that's where I think
the magic can happen because wesort of understand the different
(14:35):
perspectives.
Or at the same time, if socialworkers come into the situation
of, as opposed to this personbeing annoying or they're
calling 911 again or they lookdisheveled, like, what's going
on?
Well, it's sort of likeapproaching that from a very
humanizing way of like, hey,how's it going?
How do I, how do I kind ofde-escalate this situation, or
(14:55):
how do I talk to this person ina way that, you know, I'm
thinking about validating theirhumanity as opposed to seeing
them as a threat.
And I think you need not to saythat officers don't um think
about humanity.
I mean, I pretty much everyofficer I've ever met, they get
into the work because they wantto help people.
SPEAKER_02 (15:12):
Officers also have to manage threat assessment.
And so it's not that they allsee everyone as a threat.
They they don't, but they arelooking for threats.
And and they are looking for howdo I put this delicately,
tactical liabilities where wheresomebody is is very vulnerable,
(15:32):
they're not protectingthemselves, and the officer is
thinking not only how do Iprotect myself, but also how do
I protect this other person, thesocial worker, the chaplain, you
know, the bystander, you know,how how do I protect them?
Because if somebody isirrational or if somebody is
evil, they may just decide totake another human life.
(15:55):
And so that officer's like,well, how can I prevent that
from happening?
And and that's a a big concernthat they they often have.
And so when a co-responder, whenanother people from another, you
know, uh government agency areon scene trying to help like a
social worker, they they'reoften thinking, how many
vulnerable people do I have toprotect here if something goes
(16:16):
south?
And they don't want it to gosouth, they hope it doesn't, but
they are looking and watchingpeople's hands and watching
people's body language andlooking to say, okay, if this
gets bad, can I jump in andprotect that social worker?
Um, do you have any suggestionsto social workers about how to
(16:37):
make themselves less of a of avulnerable?
What's a word I want to use?
I I hate the word liability.
I I think that's how a cop wouldprobably phrase it.
I think they would say you'reyou're a tactical liability.
You you are out there with yoursoft underside, totally exposed
to all the dangers in the world,and you're making no effort to
(16:57):
make my job easier.
SPEAKER_00 (16:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (17:00):
What would you say to a social worker?
SPEAKER_00 (17:02):
Yeah.
Well, I I think I would startwith, and again, this is why I
really study and I like the ideaof an embedded social work
model.
And what embedded just means isthat the social worker is
actually working within thepolice department.
And the reason for that is thatI think if you are going to be
in a kind of second responderrole where you're you're
(17:24):
responding with an officer to ascene, there needs to be a level
of training.
There needs to be a level oftrust and understanding of each
other's roles and each other'slanes for that to go well.
So um, you know, and I I onlyreally know this by interviewing
other social workers that dothis kind of work, but some of
(17:44):
them talk about, you know, theimportance of situational
awareness training.
Yeah.
Right?
How do I, and I'm not gonnachange who I am, I'm not gonna
now become a cop.
That's not why I'm here, youknow.
But like, how do I become alittle bit more situationally
aware of me and my surroundings?
Also, how do I become better,you know, versed in what a
police officer thinks about sothat I can be a more valuable
(18:10):
member of that team because I'mI'm kind of aware of the other
perspectives, right?
SPEAKER_02 (18:14):
Yep, yeah, that's excellent.
SPEAKER_00 (18:16):
I think that when you train together, so if it if
if in the thing about policesocial work is it happens
differently all across thecountry.
And it really is shaped by thesize of the agency, how many
police social workers you have,um political priorities.
I mean, there's so manydifferent things that shape that
role.
But I think if you are trying todo sort of a second responder or
(18:38):
a co-responder role, you reallyneed to train together and you
need to have that situationalawareness training, and you need
to be kind of clear on where thelanes are, what the protocol is
for transferring things over.
And so that's how I got reallyinterested actually in training
police social workers.
I think it's a highlyspecialized field of social
work.
And this is why I developed it'sthe first public safety social
(19:02):
work certificate in the country.
Uh, and I did that not because Idon't think an MSW degree itself
is is, you know, sufficient insome ways, but what I heard in
the field when I did interviewswith police social workers is
they want more training.
They want more specializedexposure to the field,
understanding of the field, andtrying to figure out kind of how
(19:24):
they fit into this work.
And so that's what I'm reallytrying to do.
I see that as my purpose is totry to equip social workers who
want to do this kind of role.
And again, there are manydifferent ways to do it.
Being sort of a co-responder ora second responder is is just
one way to be a police socialworker.
SPEAKER_02 (19:44):
What's the pros and cons of a social worker wearing
a Kevlar vest?
SPEAKER_00 (19:49):
Oh man, that's a good question.
So I think it depends on therole.
I think it depends on howthey're being used.
I mean, so I talk to some socialworkers that do co-respond, but
they only come to scene whenthey're called to scene, and
they only come to scene whenmaybe they already know the
(20:10):
client in some way, and thatclient has been previously
referred by police to the socialworker.
So that's how the police knowthat the social worker has some
contact with them, you know, andso um, you know, it it if it's a
very limited kind of role likethat, I could see the case for
the social worker being the oneto kind of drive that
conversation with police andsay, look, this is if this is
(20:32):
gonna make me look bulky and andstrange, um, and you know, even
as maybe a case otherwise.
If that social worker is,though, coming out as a regular
co-responder, they're regularlyassigned to an officer, you
know, I could see the case forthe vest as well.
I mean, I think that that is a aconversation that needs to be
(20:53):
navigated within the policeagency with kind of
understanding both perspectivesat the table.
Um, I have had social workerssay to me, I feel bubble
wrapped.
You know, they don't let me doanything.
No, I think that gender plays arole here.
Most social workers are female,most officers are male, and so
there's a gender dynamic there.
SPEAKER_01 (21:10):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (21:10):
There's also an age dynamic, right?
If you have a young femalepolice social worker who's
petite, um, I can tell you thatthose are the ones that are
telling me they feel bubblewrapped in the role.
And so I think in those cases,you also have to have some
conversations about how do youhelp make sure that that social
worker has some additionaltraining.
But at the same time, the policeofficers need to also recognize
(21:32):
that this is someone who'strained.
And so, what are the ways thatthat person maybe can have a
little bit more freedom to dokind of the professional work
that they know how to do,whether it's in a library
setting or a neutral settingthat, you know, maybe does not
require a police escort.
I mean, those are the thingsthat are are challenging and
they really have to bediscussed, I think, on a case by
(21:54):
case basis.
SPEAKER_02 (21:55):
Yeah, my two concerns with co responders
wearing a vest are one, lookingtoo much like the police when
it's sometimes really necessaryfor me to be a separate voice
and for them to understand thatI'm not an officer, I'm not that
adversary that they imagine theofficers to be.
I so so sometimes there'sthere's a confusion in identity
(22:16):
issue.
Yeah.
And then the second thing is Idon't ever want issuing a Kevlar
vest to be a substitute for moretraining.
SPEAKER_01 (22:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (22:25):
And so so that that's something I don't want to
like, okay, well we don't haveto, you know, here's our CIT
co-responders, here's ourchaplains, here's our other
people, we'll just throw a vestat each of them and call that
good.
I would rather they come out andparticipate in training and kind
of learn like what you weredescribing.
I would I'd rather that happen.
And then if the best is stillapplicable or not, that can
(22:46):
maybe be even be like how Ipractice it where it's more of a
case by case basis.
SPEAKER_00 (22:51):
But social workers also can work in wellness roles
with officers.
So you know mental health uhstill has a lot of stigma and we
talk more about it than we everhave, but come on, let's just
think about what that's like,right?
You're you've had a tough call.
Do you really want to admit thatyou had a tough call to anyone?
Do you want to admit otherthings?
No, it's easier to laugh it off,right?
(23:12):
It's easier to have some darkhumor joke about something and
kind of brush it off.
But social workers are equippedto listen to officers,
especially if it's an embeddedsocial worker.
They're not going to be atherapist in that embedded role,
but they might be the firstconversation that's helping
someone process what justhappened.
(23:32):
Social workers are also good atsetting up some systems to
ensure that officers are takencare of.
And I'll give you a story here.
So I had a social worker tell methat you know there's different
shifts right each shift has adifferent lieutenant or leader
of that shift who decides kindof what happened.
So what was happening is thatthere might be some serious
(23:53):
calls, let's say a fatal carcrash and um one supervisor is
saying nah my guys are good.
We don't we don't need todebrief that.
And the other one is saying ohyeah we do need to debrief that.
So the one you have what youhave in that agency is that you
had two different experiencesfor different officers just
based on what the supervisordecided or thought in that
(24:14):
moment.
And so that could actually bereally doing a disservice to
those officers who don't want tospeak up and say yeah actually I
would like a debriefing likelet's think about that.
Nobody's gonna do that.
But by putting some policies inplace this police social worker
actually came to leadership andit took a little bit of time but
they finally decide okay on XYZcalls there's always going to be
(24:35):
a debrief it's required.
So that way nobody is put inthat awkward situation of having
to like either just suck it upand deal with it but it might or
raise their hand and request it.
SPEAKER_02 (24:47):
Exactly exactly should someone wanting to be a
civilian wellness coordinator ata police department or even a
chaplain or something like thatwe're going to deal specifically
with officer wellness ispursuing a degree in social work
a good idea.
SPEAKER_00 (25:06):
Absolutely pursuing a degree in social work is a
great idea because it looks atnot only the client in front of
you, whether that's an officer,right?
And making sure that thatindividual officer is doing
okay, whether it's creating aprogram for families of officers
we know divorce rates are veryhigh for officers, whether it's
(25:26):
suicide prevention, but doingthat in a way that officers are
like I can I I can hear whatyou're saying and you're not
just kind of making me feelstigmatized.
I mean all of those things canbe done by a social worker and I
think a highly trained socialworker in this kind of field.
Again I think because socialwork takes a multi-systemic
(25:49):
approach to the work and thatjust means they think about the
individual they think about thefamily they think about the the
larger group and larger societythe laws the organizations the
hierarchical structure thecommunity they think about all
those things when they'reworking with someone so it's not
just how do I help this personin front of me but how do I
(26:10):
think of a better way that'sgoing to support all the
officers who are struggling withthis kind of issue and how do I
make a pathway for them that'sgoing to be better for them or
their family.
So I I do think that it is areally wonderful degree for
that.
And it these issues are so muchmore complex than just the human
being sitting in front of us.
SPEAKER_02 (26:30):
Caroline Bann, thank you so much for what you do and
thank you for being on the showtoday.
SPEAKER_00 (26:35):
Thank you so much.
I hope it was helpful.
It was a lot of fun absolutely Igotta tell you I was nervous so
nervous.
I was like I don't know what I'mgonna say especially after I've
been teaching and yakking atstudents all day so you know uh
I'm like I don't know what'sgonna come out I want to thank
Caroline for coming on the show.
SPEAKER_02 (26:55):
I really appreciate her making time to talk about
this in part because of thenegative stigma that some social
worker co-responders have hadover the years.
Then every so often a politiciansays that they're going to
replace police officers withsocial workers and immediately
(27:16):
the defenses are up and Ibelieve that that causes
friction between police officersand the social worker.
But police social workers havebeen around for a very long time
and in many places have beenvery successful.
My hope is that Caroline Bannand others like her can help to
standardize the profession sothat every agency can have a
(27:40):
really positive experience usingpolice social workers alongside
their officers.
Backed by popular demand, Jakethe International Security
Specialist guy is on the nextepisode of Hey Chaplin.
SPEAKER_01 (27:57):
I learned this lesson because I went to
Malaysia I went to Kuala Lumpura couple days after Trump
dropped a bomb on Salomani inIraq if you remember all the way
back then.
Yep and we're walking I'mwalking around with my family
and all of a sudden I startedgetting it's been great I'm
(28:19):
walking around no problems now Isee a bunch of guys that are
dressed differently they'restanding on the street and
they're giving me very hard eyesthey're giving my family really
hard eyes and it's like whatwhat was that place?
What was happening?
Well that was I looked on themap that was the Pakistani
embassy and I don't I don't knowwhy all these guys were waiting
(28:42):
outside but they were Pakistaniand the sentiment was a lot of
people were angry with Americansat that time and I thought man I
should just drop that on the mapsomewhere I don't want to go and
just avoid this altogether.
So we took those lessons and weapplied it like two years later
to my boys going to India.
SPEAKER_02 (29:02):
So Americans killed an Iranian in Iraq and the
Pakistani embassy in KualaLumpur was giving you side eye
right you know the viewsexpressed here are the personal
(29:26):
views of the host and our guestand do not necessarily represent
the views of any law enforcementagency its components or any
educational institution if youlike this episode please share
it with a cop or someone wholoves a cop thank you for
listening to Hey Chaplin and asalways let's pray for peace in
(29:48):
our city let me ask you Colts orBears oh man Vikings there's the
Minnesota girl coming out I haveto say the bears just had a
banner season so what's not tolove with the bears I mean and
(30:10):
apparently apparently they'removing a little closer to you
and so if they if they build astadium in Indiana I don't know
if that's gonna happen when wesee it you know yeah yeah yeah
that's awesome that's awesomewhat are you doing to push that
forward yeah so can you ask thatquestion again there might have
(30:35):
been a question in there I'm notsure I think I got ADD brain got
distracted in the first part ofthe question.
Let's talk let's talk about Imean I can always go back and
dub in another question.
If you give me a great answerI'll find a question that fits
it.
Uh but
Welcome to Hey Chaplin.
My name is Jared Altic, and I'ma chaplain with the police
department.
The Hey Chaplin podcast is abouttalking to police officers and
other professionals in lawenforcement who say, Hey
Chaplin, I've got a story totell and some hard-earned wisdom
to share.
(00:25):
The guests on Hey Chaplin comefrom across the world, from the
LAPD to Scotland Yard, and fromsmall towns across rural
America.
They are sharing their wisdom sothat you don't have to learn the
hard way.
And as a patrol chaplain, Ithink you deserve something
positive and encouraging foronce.
(00:47):
Police social workers are not anew concept.
But until now, there's not beena nationwide standard for how
they are trained or how they areemployed alongside police
officers.
Caroline Bann teaches atValparaiso University, and she
has started the first publicsafety social work certificate
(01:09):
program in the nation for peoplewho have their masters in social
work or are getting their MSW.
Caroline talks about how thesocial workers in the police
department can add somethingvaluable to the police team that
I know that you're gonnaappreciate.
Here's Caroline Bann.
(01:33):
Hello, Caroline.
How are you?
SPEAKER_00 (01:35):
Hi, good thanks.
How are you?
SPEAKER_02 (01:37):
I'm doing pretty well.
I'm glad to get you on thephone.
You came highly recommended.
SPEAKER_00 (01:42):
Oh, thank you so much.
We'll see by the end of theinterview, right?
SPEAKER_02 (01:48):
So tell me a little bit about yourself.
Uh, what do you do for a living?
SPEAKER_00 (01:52):
Yeah, I'm an associate professor of social
work at Valparaiso University inIndiana.
Um, I I see myself as anaccidental professor because it
was never something that I evenknew was a real job when I was
growing up.
That's not kind of my family oforigin.
Um, and I'm really apractitioner at heart.
(02:12):
So I got into the field.
I was working in affordablehousing in um Minneapolis and
St.
Paul.
And I remember leaning over tothe person who worked down the
hall, and I was like, what isyour job?
Because that's the job that Iwant when I grow up.
She goes, Oh, I'm the socialworker.
And I was like, Great, I betterlearn what that is.
(02:32):
That sounds fun.
And really, what I wasinterested in, the reason I went
back is I wanted to become ajuvenile probation officer.
SPEAKER_02 (02:39):
Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_00 (02:39):
So I moved to St.
Louis and I started working inthe juvenile probation office on
the south side of the city uhand had uh mostly females on my
caseload, teenagers.
And that's where I had learnedum that I did not want to be a
juvenile probation officer.
So, you know, uh life is funnythat way.
But long story short, I ended upworking with uh a lot of mayors
(03:04):
in the Normandy School District,which is an interring suburb of
St.
Louis, and there were 24 mayorsand there were 12 police chiefs.
When I started working there,this was back in like 2010, you
know, everybody knew thatpolicing was challenging, but
nobody wanted to talk about it.
So after years and years, theyfinally said, okay, let's talk a
little bit about policing.
(03:25):
And that's how I kind of got thebug.
And that's kind of all I want todo now is study policing, study
police social work, um, and thethe interdisciplinary
collaboration there.
A police social worker, in mymind, is an embedded police
social worker.
That means they're hired by thepolice department and or hired
by another agency and they workwithin the police department.
(03:47):
So they are actually someone whois working directly with police,
whether it's in a wellnesscapacity with officers or more
focused on the community.
SPEAKER_02 (03:57):
Like victim services, yeah, something like
that.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (04:01):
Dating back to the 1900s, there were police social
workers.
The first police social workerswere called the police women.
They were all women, and theywere hired to work in police
departments, embedded socialworkers, and they worked on
women's issues, children'sissues, like runaway youth, and
a lot of social hygiene, whichis um the preventing the spread
(04:22):
of venereal diseases, which isover there.
So social workers have existedfor over a hundred years, and
yet we are still dealing withthe same issues they dealt with.
And I know this because I wentback and did a historical
research analysis looking at thevoices of policewomen.
And when I saw they were talkingabout lack of training, lack of
(04:43):
standardization.
So what we know from back thenis first of all, they talked a
lot about how the field was notat all standardized, but they
also couldn't really figure outwho they were.
And so, fast forward to today, Ithink that the reason I
developed this certificate, andit is only open to folks that
have their MSW degree or they'recurrently getting their MSW
(05:04):
degree.
And I'm doing that to helpstandardize the field.
The MSW degree is a is aspecialized social work degree.
SPEAKER_02 (05:12):
Master's in social work.
SPEAKER_00 (05:13):
Master's in social work, yeah.
Master's in social work.
So it's a specialized degree,and I think this is probably one
of the most highly specializedpositions in social work I can
think of.
Somebody told me that they wentfrom a barricade negotiation to
a dementia client to anindividual who was running away
(05:34):
from home and was LGBTQ.
I mean, the the story, you know,the range of populations that
you're working with is sodiverse.
Plus, try working in a hostsetting.
I'm sure you have no idea whatthis is like, Chaplin.
Were you the only representativeof your profession?
Yeah.
Right?
You're the only one.
You're supposed to have all theanswers.
(05:54):
You're supposed to explainyourself.
You're supposed to bearticulate, you're supposed to
stay in your lane.
So navigating all of that, plusyour own professional ethics and
values and confidentiality, Imean, it's a lot.
SPEAKER_02 (06:05):
Is it hard to study policing as an outsider?
SPEAKER_00 (06:08):
I'm sure it is.
I mean, yes, because it's adifferent culture, you know?
And I don't say that in a, youknow, a negative way.
I say that in just like it's adifferent hierarchy.
It's a different structure and adifferent system.
And I think until you've livedwhat it's like to put your life
on the line every day or to knowwhat it's like to have other
people do that, I how could youfully understand that?
(06:31):
You know, so as social workers,we try to meet people where
they're at.
Um, but I can't do that if Idon't really fully understand
what someone's going through orwhat their experience is.
You know, social workers come inwith a couple of things, a
systems mindset.
So this idea that like, whatelse is going on in this
person's life right now that iskind of creating the crisis
(06:53):
moment or the situation that wesee at hand.
And then two, good with kind ofthe follow-up, right?
And being able to take the time.
One of the things that I learnedabout with my experience with
police officers is just thereisn't a luxury of time.
I mean, you might be going fromone call to the next call to the
next call.
And the one call, it's uh, youknow, an 80-year-old individual
(07:14):
who has dementia.
And the next call, it's, youknow, someone who's experiencing
suicidal ideation.
SPEAKER_02 (07:20):
And then there's another call waiting.
SPEAKER_00 (07:22):
Another call waiting.
And so the idea of a socialworker, and I think what social
work can bring to a policeagency is maybe a little bit
more time.
I know in the field, I like torefer to them as high needs
clients, but I know some of mypolice colleagues will say
frequent flyers.
SPEAKER_01 (07:37):
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (07:38):
So that person that's calling 911 100 times a
week, the social worker can takethat off the police officer's
plate by helping them figure outwhat's really going on here.
Is there a way to reduce thecall volume to free up the
officer?
Or sometimes if a social workeris kind of in a co-responding
role, maybe they're embedded inthat police agency.
(07:58):
And once the scene is deemedsafe, that social worker is kind
of on scene and assisting withthe case.
You know, in that case, theremight be a moment where the
officer says, you know, lookslike this case is good.
Do you need any backup?
Are you good?
Do you feel safe?
Can you take time with thisclient?
And they're kind of handing itoff to the social worker.
But that requires a lot of kindof trust and relationship, I
(08:19):
think, um, between the officersand the social worker to really
understand their lanes,understand their roles and what
they can bring to the table.
But what I've heard, and I doresearch with police social
workers to try to understandthose roles, is I've heard that
one, they spend a lot of timeexplaining themselves and what
they do.
But after they get through thatand start to build some trust,
(08:40):
there's some pretty amazingthings that can happen where the
officers are sort of freed up todo what they're meant to do and
the time that they have, and thesocial worker can focus on those
things like referrals andgetting services to folks that
need it.
And and frankly, decriminalizingkind of those social issues, you
know, and not putting someone injail just because that's the
only option.
You know what I mean?
(09:00):
And I know officers don't liketo do that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_02 (09:02):
No, but but sometimes that does happen.
SPEAKER_00 (09:04):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (09:04):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (09:05):
There was a woman who kept calling the officers
because oh, her neighbors weredoing all kinds of things to her
driveway, like putting nails onher driveway.
But of course, this wasn'tactually happening because there
was like some hallucinationsthat were happening.
And so, you know, she keepscalling the police department
and finally she starts callingthe social worker.
She's like, they're not doinganything about it.
(09:26):
They're not doing anything aboutit.
And she's like, Well, um, youknow, what do they keep telling
you?
And they're like, Well, they saythat the nails aren't actually
there.
And they're like, Yeah, thenails aren't actually there.
You want me to come out and meetwith you?
And so they're, you know,meeting with the person and
talking about the, you know,actually going and like looking
at the driveway and be like,there aren't nails there, huh?
(09:47):
I wonder what happened.
Like, where did those nails go?
That's so interesting.
Because you saw them do that.
Yes, I saw them do that.
You know, like, so some of itagain is just like you're you're
listening with that person,you're you're holding up the
mirror, like, okay, you'reasking the questions, like,
okay, so this is what you say,and this is what I'm seeing.
And I just want to make sure Igot the story right.
(10:09):
And you're not being snarky, butyou know, after you've been
doing it for an hour, right?
You start to be like, okay,we're gonna have to wrap this up
now.
Um, you know, call me again.
But hopefully, after that call,that individual is calling the
social worker and not 911 everytime there's a few, right?
SPEAKER_02 (10:26):
That takes a lot, that takes a lot of love to deal
with people who are not beingvery lovable, you know, because
they're having they're having amental health episode, they're
hallucinating, they're paranoid,they're whatever, whatever it
is.
But but that takes a that takesa lot of love for your fellow
man to to be to say, I I willlay down on this barbed wire,
(10:50):
and I will I will take this sothe cops don't have to.
SPEAKER_00 (10:54):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And you know, it's it'sremembering often that like it's
the worst days of people'slives, right?
That that officers see them onor that those 911 calls, and it
doesn't mean that people don'thave better moments, but um
people are allowed to have baddays and bad periods of time in
their life.
I mean, just kind of a morepersonal story for me.
(11:16):
I've I've had a loved one whowas in a mental health crisis
and was picked up by policebecause a friend called out of
concern and was taken to ahospital setting.
And and I remember actuallygetting a call from the police
social worker and and thelieutenant just saying, like,
hey, we just want to let youknow this is where this person
(11:37):
is.
And, you know, that was abeautiful thing, right?
To have that kind of follow-upand care.
But also it was terrifying forme as an individual, right?
To know that, you know, I knowthe stats on when people
encounter police um and they'rehaving a mental health crisis,
right?
That that sometimes thosesuspicious behaviors really they
(11:58):
they look like fight or flight,right?
And if you're in fight or you'rein flight, like that looks
suspicious and that doesn'talways work out well.
I mean, we know the data on uh,you know, people with
experiencing a mental healthcrisis are 16 times more likely
to be fatally shot by police.
And I don't think anybody wantsthat outcome, right?
It's just that those are thingsyou think about, uh, I think on
(12:21):
the other side of that.
And so I think I think socialwork working with police is a
hopeful thing.
Um, because like you said, theit's not always if if you carry
a hammer, you expect things tolook like a nail because that's
how you're trained, right?
Um, and if you carry a differenttool set, and social workers are
just another tool in the toolbelt, really.
SPEAKER_02 (12:39):
What is the number one myth or misunderstanding
when it comes to police thinkingabout social workers?
SPEAKER_00 (12:48):
I'm laughing because this is something that social
workers told me through theresearch, and it was hug-a-thug.
Uh, and I thought that was likeyou're probably not laughing
because you're like, oh yeah,duh, we knew that.
Um, but I found that just thatwas a new new phrase for me.
And and what I think it meant islike I actually had a social
worker tell me that the officerwas afraid that she was gonna
(13:11):
make him touch or hug the personthat they were trying to arrest.
And she's like, I don't evenknow what you're talking about.
Like, what, what?
Uh no, and like it I think thatis a misperception of like, oh,
social workers just want to keeppeople out of jail at all costs,
or we we don't ever want to holdpeople accountable for anything
(13:32):
because everything, you know,could be based on, you know,
fueled by the environment or anegative situation that's
created another situation.
And I think the reality is like,no, social workers also work
with, you know, victims ofcrimes, right?
Like we we we want safecommunities, right?
And um yeah, we have a differentperspective, you know.
(13:54):
We we we're not all out therejust to put someone, you know,
in jail.
That's not what we want, right?
But like we we approach thingsmaybe from a different
perspective.
And I think that's the value,again, of having a social worker
and an officer working on aninterdisciplinary team is I
probably need an officer becausesafety is probably not going to
(14:14):
be my number one come from,right?
Yeah, and that probably scaresthe out of some officers, like
yeah, making, you know, and Ithink to me, that's how I got
into kind of training because Ithink that when we prepare
social workers a little bitbetter to understand the come
from of officers and vice versa,you know, that's where I think
the magic can happen because wesort of understand the different
(14:35):
perspectives.
Or at the same time, if socialworkers come into the situation
of, as opposed to this personbeing annoying or they're
calling 911 again or they lookdisheveled, like, what's going
on?
Well, it's sort of likeapproaching that from a very
humanizing way of like, hey,how's it going?
How do I, how do I kind ofde-escalate this situation, or
(14:55):
how do I talk to this person ina way that, you know, I'm
thinking about validating theirhumanity as opposed to seeing
them as a threat.
And I think you need not to saythat officers don't um think
about humanity.
I mean, I pretty much everyofficer I've ever met, they get
into the work because they wantto help people.
SPEAKER_02 (15:12):
Officers also have to manage threat assessment.
And so it's not that they allsee everyone as a threat.
They they don't, but they arelooking for threats.
And and they are looking for howdo I put this delicately,
tactical liabilities where wheresomebody is is very vulnerable,
(15:32):
they're not protectingthemselves, and the officer is
thinking not only how do Iprotect myself, but also how do
I protect this other person, thesocial worker, the chaplain, you
know, the bystander, you know,how how do I protect them?
Because if somebody isirrational or if somebody is
evil, they may just decide totake another human life.
(15:55):
And so that officer's like,well, how can I prevent that
from happening?
And and that's a a big concernthat they they often have.
And so when a co-responder, whenanother people from another, you
know, uh government agency areon scene trying to help like a
social worker, they they'reoften thinking, how many
vulnerable people do I have toprotect here if something goes
(16:16):
south?
And they don't want it to gosouth, they hope it doesn't, but
they are looking and watchingpeople's hands and watching
people's body language andlooking to say, okay, if this
gets bad, can I jump in andprotect that social worker?
Um, do you have any suggestionsto social workers about how to
(16:37):
make themselves less of a of avulnerable?
What's a word I want to use?
I I hate the word liability.
I I think that's how a cop wouldprobably phrase it.
I think they would say you'reyou're a tactical liability.
You you are out there with yoursoft underside, totally exposed
to all the dangers in the world,and you're making no effort to
(16:57):
make my job easier.
SPEAKER_00 (16:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (17:00):
What would you say to a social worker?
SPEAKER_00 (17:02):
Yeah.
Well, I I think I would startwith, and again, this is why I
really study and I like the ideaof an embedded social work
model.
And what embedded just means isthat the social worker is
actually working within thepolice department.
And the reason for that is thatI think if you are going to be
in a kind of second responderrole where you're you're
(17:24):
responding with an officer to ascene, there needs to be a level
of training.
There needs to be a level oftrust and understanding of each
other's roles and each other'slanes for that to go well.
So um, you know, and I I onlyreally know this by interviewing
other social workers that dothis kind of work, but some of
(17:44):
them talk about, you know, theimportance of situational
awareness training.
Yeah.
Right?
How do I, and I'm not gonnachange who I am, I'm not gonna
now become a cop.
That's not why I'm here, youknow.
But like, how do I become alittle bit more situationally
aware of me and my surroundings?
Also, how do I become better,you know, versed in what a
police officer thinks about sothat I can be a more valuable
(18:10):
member of that team because I'mI'm kind of aware of the other
perspectives, right?
SPEAKER_02 (18:14):
Yep, yeah, that's excellent.
SPEAKER_00 (18:16):
I think that when you train together, so if it if
if in the thing about policesocial work is it happens
differently all across thecountry.
And it really is shaped by thesize of the agency, how many
police social workers you have,um political priorities.
I mean, there's so manydifferent things that shape that
role.
But I think if you are trying todo sort of a second responder or
(18:38):
a co-responder role, you reallyneed to train together and you
need to have that situationalawareness training, and you need
to be kind of clear on where thelanes are, what the protocol is
for transferring things over.
And so that's how I got reallyinterested actually in training
police social workers.
I think it's a highlyspecialized field of social
work.
And this is why I developed it'sthe first public safety social
(19:02):
work certificate in the country.
Uh, and I did that not because Idon't think an MSW degree itself
is is, you know, sufficient insome ways, but what I heard in
the field when I did interviewswith police social workers is
they want more training.
They want more specializedexposure to the field,
understanding of the field, andtrying to figure out kind of how
(19:24):
they fit into this work.
And so that's what I'm reallytrying to do.
I see that as my purpose is totry to equip social workers who
want to do this kind of role.
And again, there are manydifferent ways to do it.
Being sort of a co-responder ora second responder is is just
one way to be a police socialworker.
SPEAKER_02 (19:44):
What's the pros and cons of a social worker wearing
a Kevlar vest?
SPEAKER_00 (19:49):
Oh man, that's a good question.
So I think it depends on therole.
I think it depends on howthey're being used.
I mean, so I talk to some socialworkers that do co-respond, but
they only come to scene whenthey're called to scene, and
they only come to scene whenmaybe they already know the
(20:10):
client in some way, and thatclient has been previously
referred by police to the socialworker.
So that's how the police knowthat the social worker has some
contact with them, you know, andso um, you know, it it if it's a
very limited kind of role likethat, I could see the case for
the social worker being the oneto kind of drive that
conversation with police andsay, look, this is if this is
(20:32):
gonna make me look bulky and andstrange, um, and you know, even
as maybe a case otherwise.
If that social worker is,though, coming out as a regular
co-responder, they're regularlyassigned to an officer, you
know, I could see the case forthe vest as well.
I mean, I think that that is a aconversation that needs to be
(20:53):
navigated within the policeagency with kind of
understanding both perspectivesat the table.
Um, I have had social workerssay to me, I feel bubble
wrapped.
You know, they don't let me doanything.
No, I think that gender plays arole here.
Most social workers are female,most officers are male, and so
there's a gender dynamic there.
SPEAKER_01 (21:10):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (21:10):
There's also an age dynamic, right?
If you have a young femalepolice social worker who's
petite, um, I can tell you thatthose are the ones that are
telling me they feel bubblewrapped in the role.
And so I think in those cases,you also have to have some
conversations about how do youhelp make sure that that social
worker has some additionaltraining.
But at the same time, the policeofficers need to also recognize
(21:32):
that this is someone who'strained.
And so, what are the ways thatthat person maybe can have a
little bit more freedom to dokind of the professional work
that they know how to do,whether it's in a library
setting or a neutral settingthat, you know, maybe does not
require a police escort.
I mean, those are the thingsthat are are challenging and
they really have to bediscussed, I think, on a case by
(21:54):
case basis.
SPEAKER_02 (21:55):
Yeah, my two concerns with co responders
wearing a vest are one, lookingtoo much like the police when
it's sometimes really necessaryfor me to be a separate voice
and for them to understand thatI'm not an officer, I'm not that
adversary that they imagine theofficers to be.
I so so sometimes there'sthere's a confusion in identity
(22:16):
issue.
Yeah.
And then the second thing is Idon't ever want issuing a Kevlar
vest to be a substitute for moretraining.
SPEAKER_01 (22:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (22:25):
And so so that that's something I don't want to
like, okay, well we don't haveto, you know, here's our CIT
co-responders, here's ourchaplains, here's our other
people, we'll just throw a vestat each of them and call that
good.
I would rather they come out andparticipate in training and kind
of learn like what you weredescribing.
I would I'd rather that happen.
And then if the best is stillapplicable or not, that can
(22:46):
maybe be even be like how Ipractice it where it's more of a
case by case basis.
SPEAKER_00 (22:51):
But social workers also can work in wellness roles
with officers.
So you know mental health uhstill has a lot of stigma and we
talk more about it than we everhave, but come on, let's just
think about what that's like,right?
You're you've had a tough call.
Do you really want to admit thatyou had a tough call to anyone?
Do you want to admit otherthings?
No, it's easier to laugh it off,right?
(23:12):
It's easier to have some darkhumor joke about something and
kind of brush it off.
But social workers are equippedto listen to officers,
especially if it's an embeddedsocial worker.
They're not going to be atherapist in that embedded role,
but they might be the firstconversation that's helping
someone process what justhappened.
(23:32):
Social workers are also good atsetting up some systems to
ensure that officers are takencare of.
And I'll give you a story here.
So I had a social worker tell methat you know there's different
shifts right each shift has adifferent lieutenant or leader
of that shift who decides kindof what happened.
So what was happening is thatthere might be some serious
(23:53):
calls, let's say a fatal carcrash and um one supervisor is
saying nah my guys are good.
We don't we don't need todebrief that.
And the other one is saying ohyeah we do need to debrief that.
So the one you have what youhave in that agency is that you
had two different experiencesfor different officers just
based on what the supervisordecided or thought in that
(24:14):
moment.
And so that could actually bereally doing a disservice to
those officers who don't want tospeak up and say yeah actually I
would like a debriefing likelet's think about that.
Nobody's gonna do that.
But by putting some policies inplace this police social worker
actually came to leadership andit took a little bit of time but
they finally decide okay on XYZcalls there's always going to be
(24:35):
a debrief it's required.
So that way nobody is put inthat awkward situation of having
to like either just suck it upand deal with it but it might or
raise their hand and request it.
SPEAKER_02 (24:47):
Exactly exactly should someone wanting to be a
civilian wellness coordinator ata police department or even a
chaplain or something like thatwe're going to deal specifically
with officer wellness ispursuing a degree in social work
a good idea.
SPEAKER_00 (25:06):
Absolutely pursuing a degree in social work is a
great idea because it looks atnot only the client in front of
you, whether that's an officer,right?
And making sure that thatindividual officer is doing
okay, whether it's creating aprogram for families of officers
we know divorce rates are veryhigh for officers, whether it's
(25:26):
suicide prevention, but doingthat in a way that officers are
like I can I I can hear whatyou're saying and you're not
just kind of making me feelstigmatized.
I mean all of those things canbe done by a social worker and I
think a highly trained socialworker in this kind of field.
Again I think because socialwork takes a multi-systemic
(25:49):
approach to the work and thatjust means they think about the
individual they think about thefamily they think about the the
larger group and larger societythe laws the organizations the
hierarchical structure thecommunity they think about all
those things when they'reworking with someone so it's not
just how do I help this personin front of me but how do I
(26:10):
think of a better way that'sgoing to support all the
officers who are struggling withthis kind of issue and how do I
make a pathway for them that'sgoing to be better for them or
their family.
So I I do think that it is areally wonderful degree for
that.
And it these issues are so muchmore complex than just the human
being sitting in front of us.
SPEAKER_02 (26:30):
Caroline Bann, thank you so much for what you do and
thank you for being on the showtoday.
SPEAKER_00 (26:35):
Thank you so much.
I hope it was helpful.
It was a lot of fun absolutely Igotta tell you I was nervous so
nervous.
I was like I don't know what I'mgonna say especially after I've
been teaching and yakking atstudents all day so you know uh
I'm like I don't know what'sgonna come out I want to thank
Caroline for coming on the show.
SPEAKER_02 (26:55):
I really appreciate her making time to talk about
this in part because of thenegative stigma that some social
worker co-responders have hadover the years.
Then every so often a politiciansays that they're going to
replace police officers withsocial workers and immediately
(27:16):
the defenses are up and Ibelieve that that causes
friction between police officersand the social worker.
But police social workers havebeen around for a very long time
and in many places have beenvery successful.
My hope is that Caroline Bannand others like her can help to
standardize the profession sothat every agency can have a
(27:40):
really positive experience usingpolice social workers alongside
their officers.
Backed by popular demand, Jakethe International Security
Specialist guy is on the nextepisode of Hey Chaplin.
SPEAKER_01 (27:57):
I learned this lesson because I went to
Malaysia I went to Kuala Lumpura couple days after Trump
dropped a bomb on Salomani inIraq if you remember all the way
back then.
Yep and we're walking I'mwalking around with my family
and all of a sudden I startedgetting it's been great I'm
(28:19):
walking around no problems now Isee a bunch of guys that are
dressed differently they'restanding on the street and
they're giving me very hard eyesthey're giving my family really
hard eyes and it's like whatwhat was that place?
What was happening?
Well that was I looked on themap that was the Pakistani
embassy and I don't I don't knowwhy all these guys were waiting
(28:42):
outside but they were Pakistaniand the sentiment was a lot of
people were angry with Americansat that time and I thought man I
should just drop that on the mapsomewhere I don't want to go and
just avoid this altogether.
So we took those lessons and weapplied it like two years later
to my boys going to India.
SPEAKER_02 (29:02):
So Americans killed an Iranian in Iraq and the
Pakistani embassy in KualaLumpur was giving you side eye
right you know the viewsexpressed here are the personal
(29:26):
views of the host and our guestand do not necessarily represent
the views of any law enforcementagency its components or any
educational institution if youlike this episode please share
it with a cop or someone wholoves a cop thank you for
listening to Hey Chaplin and asalways let's pray for peace in
(29:48):
our city let me ask you Colts orBears oh man Vikings there's the
Minnesota girl coming out I haveto say the bears just had a
banner season so what's not tolove with the bears I mean and
(30:10):
apparently apparently they'removing a little closer to you
and so if they if they build astadium in Indiana I don't know
if that's gonna happen when wesee it you know yeah yeah yeah
that's awesome that's awesomewhat are you doing to push that
forward yeah so can you ask thatquestion again there might have
(30:35):
been a question in there I'm notsure I think I got ADD brain got
distracted in the first part ofthe question.
Let's talk let's talk about Imean I can always go back and
dub in another question.
If you give me a great answerI'll find a question that fits
it.
Uh but
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