May 18, 2026 • 32 mins
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When a cop tries to go to counseling, the counselor typically gets one chance to make a good impression. Either this is going to go fairly well and the cop will come back again or it won't go well and the cop will swear he'll never go to another counselor the rest of his life! A growing number of second-career, cops-turned-counselors are determined to make a meaningful connection on that first attempt. Today's guest is Ian Hobbs. Ian is a former homicide detective and a Marine Corps veteran who is now starting a second career as a clinician. Ian is going to describe what he saw in the military and in law enforcement that made him want to change careers and help in a more direct way.
Music is by TrackTribe
Hey Chaplain Podcast Episode 141
Tags:
Police, Career, Counseling, Crimes Against Children, Detectives, Education, Homicide, Mental Health, Stress, Suicide, USMC, Kansas City, Kansas, Missouri, Iraq
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
This is Vinnie Montez.
I want to just give a shout outto the Hey Chaplin podcast.
You should be listening to it.
If you're not, you're a square.
SPEAKER_01 (00:08):
Welcome to Hey Chaplin.
My name is Jared Altic, and I'ma chaplain with the police
department.
The Hey Chaplin podcast is abouttalking to police officers who
say, Hey Chaplain, I've got astory to tell and some
hard-earned wisdom to share.
The guests on Hey Chaplin comefrom across the world, from the
LAPD, the Scotland Yard, fromThailand to Texas.
(00:32):
They are sharing their wisdom sothat you don't have to learn the
hard way.
And as Patrol Chaplain, I thinkyou deserve something positive
and encouraging.
Hey Chaplain is a free resourcefor everyone because of those
supporters who are quietlyhelping behind the scenes.
If you want to help this showreach more cops, chaplains, and
(00:55):
other first responders aroundthe world, please follow the
link in the episode descriptionto support the show.
When a cop tries to go tocounseling, the counselor
typically gets one chance tomake a good impression.
Either this is gonna go fairlywell and the cop will come back
again, or it won't go well, andthe cop will swear he'll never
(01:19):
go to another counselor the restof his life.
A growing number of secondcareer cops turned counselors
are determined to make ameaningful connection on that
first attempt.
Today's guest is Ian Hobbs.
Ian is a former homicidedetective and Marine Corps
veteran who is now starting asecond career as a clinician.
(01:42):
Ian is going to describe what hesaw in the military and in law
enforcement that made him wantto change careers and help in a
more direct way.
Here's Ian Hobbs.
Hello, Ian.
How are you today?
I'm doing all right.
How are you?
I'm doing great.
I'm glad you're here today.
I appreciate you driving over,be in the office with me, and
(02:03):
get to be across the table as weuh do the interview, and I
appreciate you taking the timeout to do that.
Tell me a little bit about yourlaw enforcement career.
SPEAKER_02 (02:13):
I started out at the Johnson County Sheriff's Office
over in Kansas.
Uh, went to the academy there in2006, and then uh worked
primarily detention until justuh the summer of 2009, went to
dispatch for a few months andthen uh That's actually a really
good base.
SPEAKER_01 (02:32):
I kind of wish every officer had that.
Either working in detentioncorrections or working in
dispatch.
Yeah, one or the other.
Some agencies require yeah, youhave to do one or the other
first.
SPEAKER_02 (02:43):
It definitely set me up, and I don't know if I would
have recognized this at thetime, but it definitely set me
up for my career down the road,because one of the things that
used to drive me nuts working inthe jail is you know, you're
arresting somebody, you havecontact with them for like 30
minutes or an hour.
If they're all fired up orsomething, you really like you
get to dump them at the jailwhen you book them, and then
(03:04):
you're done.
Um, at least where I worked, youwere assigned to a module for 30
days.
So if you got into it with oneof the one of the inmates,
you're you're having to interactwith them for the remainder of
those 29 days.
So certainly this balance ofbeing, I guess, firm but fair,
and then still being able torelate to people on a
(03:25):
professional level and andmaintaining boundaries at the
same time, but recognizing thatyou're better off not like
damaging these relationshipsbecause clearly there's a power
dynamic.
Yeah.
And I think that set me up ininteracting with people, both as
a detective and a patrol officerwhen I was a police officer.
I started at KCPD uh in Januaryof 2010, went to their academy,
(03:49):
um, and then hit the road.
I was uh patrol officer atCentral Patrol Division, uh,
which is like the downtown, uhmidtown area of uh of KC Mo.
Did that for about five years.
Uh, was a CIT officer, then wentto investigations.
Um so I started out in thespecial victims unit in the
crimes against children uhsection, and then kind of
(04:09):
bounced around in there inviolent crimes for about five
years between crimes againstchildren.
I went to the OvernightGeneralist Squad, which handles
anything violent crimes relatedovernight.
So robberies, sexual assaults,domestic violence, any of it.
And then we handed off to thosesquads, went back, did another
uh another stint in crimesagainst children, and then
(04:31):
eventually went to homicide uhat the end of 2019, and then was
there until June of 22 when I uhleft the police department.
SPEAKER_01 (04:39):
Okay.
So a lot of experience as adetective.
Yes.
Uh a good variety of differenttypes of cases, especially those
overnight things where you'rereally taking whatever happens
before you hand it off to theappropriate squad to, you know,
the where that's theirspecialty.
And so lots of experience inthat.
All of that after having been aMarine in Iraq.
SPEAKER_02 (05:01):
Yes.
So I was in the uh the MarineCorps Reserve, I enlisted in uh
2003, and then uh I have onedeployment to Iraq.
I was an infantryman.
Uh so spent a year in Iraq in2005 and around like the
Fallujah area.
Um, we got there right afterPhantom Fury, which is the
second battle of Fallujah.
Uh, so we did a lot of operatingoutside of the city, can kind
(05:21):
of, I guess, what you would callthe more rural areas, but then
came home, stayed in thereserve, and then continued my
law enforcement career.
SPEAKER_01 (05:27):
Okay.
Now, through all of this, you'realso doing a lot of education.
You went back to school and gotyour your degrees and went on,
got a master's degree.
And and early on, did you knowwhere you wanted to go with this
education?
SPEAKER_02 (05:43):
So very early on, no.
Um, you know, education wassomething that was important in
my family.
Um, so I knew I wanted to goback to I kind of attempted
college right before the MarineCorps, and it didn't go well.
I wasn't super disciplined.
Uh, shout out to my dad who haduh had encouraged me to to maybe
go do something else besidescollege because I wasn't ready.
(06:03):
But you know, you're 18 and youknow everything.
So um I decided to try itanyway, and it didn't it didn't
go well.
I went to Kansas State verybriefly and uh failed out, and
then uh the the Marine Corps andlaw enforcement were at my next
chapters.
Um so I knew I wanted to goback, um, but at the beginning I
didn't know what.
So I just like I had all thesecredits from the police
academies I'd been to and fromfrom the Marine Corps that
(06:26):
transferred over into some ofthe local colleges.
So I just went back and wasmajoring in criminal justice,
and then I started to developthis interest in mental health
and it pivoted that way.
SPEAKER_01 (06:36):
Let's pull on that thread of the mental health of
police officers and why itintrigues you, why you felt like
you could help, why do you whywere you pulled that direction?
SPEAKER_02 (06:50):
I was like I said, I was I was in the infantry in the
Marine Corps, and I I thinkprobably most everybody knows
what that means, but those aregenerally like the guys that are
actually engaged in combatoperations that are actually,
you know, uh kind of where the II it's hands-on.
Yes, very hands-on.
Um, so the guys that generallyare seeing the front lines of
combat.
And, you know, I worked at at aninner city police department,
(07:11):
and I was struck by the amountof suicides that I was
encountering.
To this day, I knowsignificantly more people who
have ended their lives bysuicide than have been killed in
the line of duty.
SPEAKER_01 (07:24):
And like when I say line of duty, I don't just mean
murdered, I mean car accidents,like other accidents, even even
heart attacks or other likethat, like the suicide is still
the number one in terms of amongyour peers, yes, suicide was a
bigger threat than workaccidents and violence and other
things.
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (07:44):
So I was really struck by that.
Like here are these individualsthat are at least on scene in
dealing with these things,really resilient to these these
critical situations as they'regoing on, but then you know,
months or even years later areso affected by them that they're
ending their lives.
And I was just drawn to liketrying to understand that with
(08:07):
the Marine Corps.
We had this is post-deployment.
So this is we're back, and Ican't remember if I was still in
the Marine Corps at this pointor if I had gotten out, but
there was uh a gentleman who's Iwon't share his name, but um had
that I served with that had hadcompleted suicide that had ended
their life by suicide.
And I went to his funeral, andhaving been to funerals of guys
who were were killed either incombat or like other accidental
(08:30):
means, the turnout was abysmal.
The like they they managed topiece together an honor guard,
but I the for a myriad ofreasons, it was not super
impressive.
Yeah.
And it was just my experiencelike on a larger scale was that
when people would killthemselves, that it was just it
was almost like they didn'texist.
(08:51):
Like where we have, um, as I'msure you've experienced as a
chaplain, when we have somebodywho's killed in the line of
duty, it is it's a it's a bigthing.
Like officers get the day off toattend their funeral, oftentimes
a neighboring agency will comein and cover the city.
SPEAKER_01 (09:05):
A lot of very deliberate effort to honor that
person.
SPEAKER_02 (09:08):
Um and my experience, I I think we've
gotten better about this, but myexperience, you know, 20 years
ago, 15 years ago, was that itwas almost like they just never
existed.
It was it was like we couldn'twe couldn't say the thing out
loud because then we wouldacknowledge there was a problem.
It was kind of what at leastwhat my individual experience
was.
SPEAKER_01 (09:26):
Yeah.
I think I think that's reallycommon though, yeah.
That that there is this feelingof of we can't say it out loud,
we can't name it out loudbecause it has a almost
contagious kind of feel to it.
That that if that if we if wesay it, if we if we embrace it
too clearly, then it would bebad for us.
(09:50):
Yeah.
And so we're going to keep it atarm's length.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (09:53):
Well, it's almost uh to a point, I feel like it's
also like the elephant in theroom.
So it's like if we say this outloud, then we have to
acknowledge that all of us aresusceptible to this.
SPEAKER_01 (10:02):
Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_02 (10:03):
I had a personal experience with somebody who was
close to me on the policedepartment where they ended up
in a mental health crisis, and Iwas in a position to intervene
in that.
And at the end of it, at thetime, I thought I handled it
like I felt inadequate in thetools that I had to deal with
that.
SPEAKER_01 (10:21):
Now you know, you were in a position to intervene
to talk to them.
SPEAKER_02 (10:26):
And try to get them help.
And and to they got help, to befair.
But at the time, looking back,I'm like, I didn't feel like I
had the the tools adequately uhto adequately handle it.
I I felt at the time like Ididn't have the tools to
adequately address thesituation.
Now I can say looking back on itnow that with with the the
training and experience that Ihave now, that I think I handled
(10:49):
it as best I could with the withthe skill set that I had.
But a couple of things struck meabout that situation, one of
which was initially, like eventhough I was a mess because I
was a close to this person,there wasn't a ton of support,
at least in the initial 24hours.
Um so they kind of circled thewagons around this person.
They took them, took them to gethelp.
(11:09):
And I remember there was amoment I'm standing on the side
of the road uh outside thisperson's house after everybody's
left, and I'm just like lookingaround, and I'm I'm all alone.
Nobody had put their shoulder onme and been like, hey, or like
this is probably really intensefor you.
Are you okay?
Um, and I just I went home.
And uh it was, I think it wasabout midway through the next
day.
(11:30):
But somebody from the departmentwho was one of their mental
health providers eventuallyreached out to me.
And I don't know what the behindthe scenes occurrence of that
was, but I have a feeling thatsomebody was talking to them
about this, and they're like,Hey, did anybody check on Ian?
And I think they're like, Oh,no, he's still on his days off,
so we haven't.
So they reached out to me.
SPEAKER_01 (11:48):
But it's so easy for people to slip through the
cracks like that.
Yes, yeah.
I've been in those meetingswhere you got the peer support
and maybe the wellness officer,and we're like, oh, wait a
second, have we checked onso-and-so?
Yeah.
And no, we haven't.
And you know, we go scramble tomake sure they have support.
But but yeah, that's I've I'vebeen on the other side of that.
SPEAKER_02 (12:07):
Yeah.
I was struck by both of thosethings.
A, what felt like this becausethere were warning signs with
this person.
Um, and I had kind of started toraise the alarm a couple of
times, and and it felt like itkind of fell on deaf ears.
But then also the notrecognizing that, like, hey,
this probably significantlyimpacted Ian.
(12:29):
And like nobody at the timethought to look at and to be
fair, even I internally at thatmoment didn't think.
I think it was after everything,everything had kind of calmed
down, and that's when Irealized, like, I'm a mess.
Like that this was a veryintense experience, and I
probably need some help.
SPEAKER_01 (12:46):
Yeah, yeah.
So you've worked in like I Ikeep saying you've worked in a
variety.
I I'm really pleased when I seean officer who has had a chance
to sit in all the differentseats on the bus.
Yeah, and that's just I thinkthat makes for a great career.
And you worked in homicide,which a lot of people assume,
like, oh, that's super intense.
Yeah.
And it is in its way.
(13:06):
But the the detectives that I'vealways personally worried about
are the ones who work crimesagainst children.
Yeah.
And you've done a couple stintsin that.
Uh, how do you feel the state ofthe officer's mental health, the
detective's mental health waswhen you were in those units?
So do you think they handled itwell?
(13:27):
Do you think they had goodsupport?
SPEAKER_02 (13:29):
No.
Um You know, I think if they hadsought it out that the support
would have been there.
Um but I think one of therecurrent patterns that I see in
working with police officers, orreally first responders and even
veterans at large, is helpersaren't good at asking for help.
And so there's also this sense,um, and it's something I've
(13:52):
heard a ton of cops say when I'mworking with them, of this
belief that they're the onlyones that are experiencing this
negative emotion.
Um, we do a really good job inlaw enforcement of
compartmentalizing, and it's animportant skill.
It's so important to be able tofunction in these environments
that are high stress, and you'reseeing things that largely
inherently bad tocompartmentalize.
(14:13):
No, it's what you do with itafterwards that is the problem.
So we get really good at sshoving these things in a box,
but nobody ever opens the box upand is like, well, I probably
should unpack these and likekind of work my way through this
to experience the feelings thatcome with it.
And then eventually the box isjust kind of bursting at the
scene.
SPEAKER_01 (14:30):
It's not bad to put leftovers in a container in the
fridge.
It's bad to have never openedthat container back up again
years later.
SPEAKER_02 (14:37):
It's a great analogy.
I'm probably gonna use thatagain uh down the road.
SPEAKER_01 (14:40):
I just cleaned out the fridge recently.
So I was like, what happenedhere?
Why did we never come back tothis?
SPEAKER_02 (14:46):
I don't know that this is just symptomatic of that
that specific unit outside ofthe fact that the content you're
dealing with in that unit isvery um intense.
It shocks the conscience.
The issue, largely, I thinkbroader with police departments,
is there's just not a ton ofconnection with a like mental
health professional or uh asupport system that's there.
(15:08):
That it is it is reactive.
You either a critical incidenthas to occur, something that's
really intense has to occur, orthe officer has to ask for help.
And my experience is, and I'veseen this happen, I've seen it
happen uh at one of the agenciesI work with where an officer
went to the department and islike, hey, I'm struggling
(15:30):
because of X, Y, and Z.
And suddenly they're yanked offduty, they're on modified
assignment, they're doing limit,they're doing fit for duties.
Yeah.
And I understand that it'sprobably difficult to balance
like making sure that somebodywho you're sending out into the
community with a gun and a badgeis in the right mindset with
also taking care of them.
But I think that that messagelargely screams like, ooh, I
(15:53):
need to not say something tosomeone.
SPEAKER_01 (15:55):
It hurts on a couple levels.
It hurts that officer to takehim out of his uh normal
environment, all away from thepeople who support him, away
from the things that he uses toset his identity, and and you're
gonna take all of that away fromhim, and it could hurt him in
the moment, but then also itsends a message to everybody
(16:15):
else.
I will lose what I value themost if I it if I indicate that
I need help.
Yes.
Becoming a member of thehomicide unit for a lot of guys,
that is their career goal.
Yeah.
You know, I want to be ahomicide detective.
That is that is that I will knowthat I've made it.
Yes.
When when I can say that is myjob at the police department.
(16:36):
So you're there, but you'reapparently already being pulled
in another direction.
SPEAKER_02 (16:43):
So I'd gone back to school, and this is the same
time I'd started to developinterest in officer mental
health, and it started out withveteran mental health, and I was
saying the same things in lawenforcement.
But I was in a uh veteran CITtraining course, and uh I'd
gotten to a point whereeventually I facilitated some of
those.
I can't remember which one ofthe two it was.
Uh-huh.
But a social worker from the VAthat we worked with regularly
(17:06):
named Claude Gidry, shout out toClaude if he's still out there
and working for the VA.
Um, I'd walked up to him and uhafter a class that he'd taught,
and I was like, hey, I like Ithink I might be interested in
becoming a therapist.
And uh, you know, I was thinkingabout getting a master's degree
in psychology.
And uh there are several pathsthat you can get master's
degree-wise to do therapy.
(17:27):
But Claude's like, no, you wantto you want a master's degree in
social work.
And I'm like, no, I don't wantto be a social worker.
Like just thinking kind ofclassically what a social worker
is, not understanding what aclinical social worker is.
So he kind of explained that tome, and then that kind of
launched my interest in that.
And at this point, I had waspretty deep into my uh criminal
(17:47):
justice degree to pivot tosocial work and then try to do
what's called an advancedstanding degree where I can do a
master's in a year.
So I just I went ahead andfinished my bachelor's in
criminal justice and uh ended upgetting accepted to uh KU,
University of Kansas' socialwork program at the Edwards
campus, and then did athree-year program of that.
I graduated in uh May of 2018and then continued to work at
(18:10):
the police department, uh, likeyou said, went to homicide at
the end of 2019 and uh was doingthat, did that for about three
years and had kind of justreached a point towards the end
of homicide, uh towards the endof that time where I had really
started to think that maybe mylaw enforcement career just run
its course and I was maybe readyto move on to the next thing.
(18:30):
How do you know that?
Um, you know, a myriad of thingshad occurred.
Um I was I hit homicide aboutthe time that 2020 happened, um
and all the various experiencesof of 2020, uh, you know,
interacting with with thosesituations.
So there was already kind ofthis shift where you were
experiencing a lot of anegativity.
And I I think most policeofficers saw their social circle
(18:52):
shrink significantly during thattime.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:54):
Uh well on so many levels because George Floyd
happened uh concurrent withCOVID.
Yes.
I mean, you're isolated on as acop, you're isolated on every
level that you can be isolated.
SPEAKER_00 (19:08):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (19:08):
And so so yeah, that was that was unpleasant.
SPEAKER_02 (19:11):
So I that was kind of the beginning of it, and uh
just recognizing you knowburnout.
The the stressors in homicideare very different from the
stressors and crimes againstchildren.
And you know, for for me atleast, crimes against children,
the stressor, there's certainlyuh organizational stress and
crimes against children, but thecontent is a lot worse than the
organizational stress in termsof like with the case material.
(19:34):
Um homicide for me, myexperience was that it was a lot
more organizational stress.
There's a lot more like we gottawe gotta clear these murders, we
gotta, we gotta get this casecleared, we have to, hey,
where's what's going on withthis murder?
SPEAKER_01 (19:46):
There's Are we building this case well enough
for it to like ch Status?
SPEAKER_02 (19:51):
And there's just a lot of moving parts, and there's
a lot of high-ranking people,uh, understandably, but there's
a lot of high-ranking people inthe police department and the
prosecutor's office and the citywho are occasionally checking on
these things.
SPEAKER_01 (20:04):
And they're they're not interfering.
A lot of they're just checking,they're just sure.
SPEAKER_02 (20:08):
Um, there's a lot of like people looking over your
shoulder, and that becomesstressful.
Yes.
Um, so you work a lot ofovertime, like a ton of overtime
when you're in homicide, andthere's not really uh kind of a
spigot to shut it off becauseyou're just so so busy uh that
there's always work to be done.
Yeah.
Having worked as much as I wasworking, plus I think you know,
(20:31):
I COVID probably played a rolein terms of limiting social
interaction there.
So a lot of the supports, butlike one of the bigger things
that you try to promote topolice officers is a life
outside of law enforcement.
SPEAKER_01 (20:43):
And for a year, year and a half, most of the stuff
was shut down.
SPEAKER_02 (20:47):
Right.
There was no there was no goingto you know the bar to hang out
with your friends.
I don't know, necessarilydrinking is the the no, but but
any kind of social yeah,restaurants are restaurants are
closed.
SPEAKER_01 (20:57):
Everything from restaurants to churches to to to
clubs to sporting events, it itit was all yeah limited.
SPEAKER_02 (21:05):
I don't remember which one it was, but I I think
the NFL I think was in emptystadiums and MLB was in like
half full stadiums, or maybe theother way around.
I don't remember which one itwas.
See, there was just nothing todo, so there's a lot of going
home.
I think I watched all of Netflixum DoorDash way more than I
should have.
That was actually when Idiscovered DoorDash was during
the the pandemic.
So there were just a number offactors, and there was also just
(21:26):
I had been doing my own work interms of mental health.
I've I've personally been intherapy since I think 2012.
And there was just a recognitionthat this is an emotionally
caustic environment to work in.
And that that's not a dig atanything at my agencies.
It just is the source material.
SPEAKER_01 (21:43):
It just is like it is you're dealing with
everybody's worst tragedies.
SPEAKER_02 (21:48):
Right.
And and there is some part ofthat that attaches to you while
you're dealing with it.
You you can as it as good as youare at compartmentalization,
there is just human beings ingeneral weren't meant.
To see as much stuff as firstresponders do.
It's just and it's uh it isrecurrent.
And uh there's kind of uniquedifferences between that and the
(22:10):
military, and individualexperiences will vary, but I
think there's a complexity tofirst responder work that is
more emotionally caustic in mostcases.
There again, individualexperiences may vary.
Yeah, that is more caustic tofirst responder work.
And it's just deployments in themilitary are you leave
(22:31):
everything that you are kind ofattached to here in the US, you
go to Iraq, Afghanistan, Horn ofAfrica, one of these places that
we're seeing, you know, now atleast the mid the Middle East
around Iran.
And often like you're just init, you're removed in a
completely differentenvironment.
And the culture is different,the people are different, the
people generally look differentthan you, they speak a different
(22:52):
language, the things that arecustoms there are completely
different.
Um, the environment smellsdifferent, it's just very
different, and then you'reengaged in these things, and
you're also completelycompartmentalized with other
people that are doing the samething.
Yeah.
And then you come home.
And certainly re-integration, Ithink reintegration is probably
the hardest part of the militaryin terms of coming back and then
(23:13):
trying to figure out.
Um, and I wasn't married when Iwent to Iraq, um, but trying to
figure out how to reintegrateinto a household that has
largely adjusted to functionwithout you there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Versus first responder work,where to this day, still even
for me, when I drive around thecity, I'm like, oh, that's where
this happened, that's where thishappened, that's where this
happened.
And it for me, it's yeah, I'm ina healthy place with it where
(23:35):
it's not distracting or, youknow, it doesn't really take me
out of the moment, but it it'sthere.
And it's, you know, there's not,I don't drive by the place
where, you know, where one of mybuddies got wounded by an IED,
you know, when I'm drivingaround Kansas City.
Right.
So there's the and it there'sthe the added complexity of you
(23:56):
go experience one of thesethings and then you go home, and
suddenly you're changing yourkid's diaper and you're mowing
the lawn and you're cookingdinner and you're doing all the
kind of mundane tasks of life,and then you go back to it
tomorrow.
SPEAKER_01 (24:10):
Yeah, and going back and forth is its own interesting
thing that we're doingpsychologically.
SPEAKER_02 (24:15):
Yeah, absolutely.
Or you're switching kind of backand forth these modes of your
brain.
SPEAKER_01 (24:19):
Yeah, yeah.
So you are well on your way toto establishing yourself as a
clinician.
Yes.
Uh, you've done thousands andthousands of hours and you're
you're getting all all the boxeschecked to progress through this
part and start this new chapterof your life.
And I'm really excited for you.
I think that's fantastic.
(24:39):
I I would really like to seemore officers thinking in terms
of like, okay, what is my nextchapter?
Because it could happen soonerthan what you absolutely can
happen overnight.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So so you're you're doing greatand and getting that
established.
What is your big hairy audaciousgoal with with what you want to
(25:02):
do at this next chapter of yourlife?
SPEAKER_02 (25:03):
So I'm finishing up clinical supervision to be a
therapist uh right now.
Once that is like done, once Iso I should be done this August,
assuming I don't screw up andfail my clinical exam.
Um You're fine.
You're fine.
All right.
Once that's done and we hitAugust and I can individually
license, uh, my my goal would beto just kind of launch my own
(25:23):
practice and work on treatingfirst responders and and
veterans is kind of my target,target audience.
Um, primarily treating trauma.
But I you know, you can treatthe peripheral things there too.
Um, but that is really the goal.
That's why I got into this wasto uh help police officers,
first responders, veterans umthat don't maybe feel like they
can relate to a therapist.
(25:44):
Yeah.
I personally believe that theclinical relationship is the
most important part of thetherapeutic experience.
Um certain, certainly clinicalknowledges, modality, different
things like that are importanttoo.
I'm not dismissing those, mylike you have to know what
you're doing once you'reinvolved in the relationship.
But creating an environmentwhere these people are willing
(26:06):
to share like their worst daywith you, where they're already
experiencing kind of a publicthat that pries on them with
that sort of thing.
And it's not a story that mostother people have earned the
right to hear.
And I'm sure you've seen this asa chaplain, but like the
question when somebody meets youand they find out you're a
police officer that I've gottenmore than anywhere else is what
(26:26):
is the worst thing you've everseen?
And realistically, you don'twant to know what the worst
thing I've ever seen is.
It's it's not also thank you forforcing me to relive what might
be the worst day of my lifeinvoluntarily in this moment
while I'm trying to get a sodaquick trip.
So there's just the there's thisconditioning to experience these
kind of negative socialinteractions.
(26:47):
And I think for a myriad ofreasons, including the one that
I I talked about a little bitago, where you know, I know of a
guy who went to the departmentas like, hey, I need to take
some time off to get myselfright.
And then it it resulted in thisreally negative experience.
You know, what is what is thetherapist required to tell?
If I tell them that I'mstruggling at work, are they
gonna run and tell mydepartment?
(27:07):
What are the protections inplace?
Um and I know people who havehad really negative experiences
with having their therapistrecords subpoenaed, and uh, you
know, whether the therapistchose to fight the subpoena or
not was, you know, like a bigcontingent for them.
One of the things that I Ireally try to honor and take
seriously is if if a policeofficer or first responder comes
(27:30):
to me for therapy, my experienceis that you really only have one
shot to give them a positiveexperience where they will
continue therapy.
We're not conditioned as helpersto ask for help.
No.
And the act of doing that Ithink is so uncomfortable that
if they get in there and detectthat there's judgment, this
(27:50):
person doesn't get me, um, maybethis person is opposed to what I
do for a living just becausethey're they're they're not
super friendly towards lawenforcement, then I what I have
seen is that what that will leadto is I'm never coming back here
again.
I've had this negativeexperience.
I tried the opening up myfeelings.
SPEAKER_01 (28:09):
Well, I didn't want to do this anyway, and my first
taste of it was negative.
I'm never going back.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Ian Hobbs, thank you so much forcoming in today.
Thank you for doing what you'redoing, both in your service in
law enforcement and military andalso in your service as a
clinician.
SPEAKER_02 (28:27):
Well, thank you so much.
I really appreciate you havingme.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (28:32):
I want to thank Ian Hobbs for being on the show
today, and I'm especiallyexcited to have gotten to know
him because I'm always lookingfor another culturally competent
clinician about whom I can feelexcited and confident to
recommend them.
I also want to give a shout outto Jake, the International
(28:53):
Security Specialist guy, whorecommended Ian and said, You
need to get to know this guy.
Let me reach out to him for you,make a contact so that you can
get him on your show.
I get a lot of emails solicitingmy show to be like, hey, here's
a book that's being written, andwe want the author to be on your
show.
(29:13):
I'm not interested in most ofthose.
If instead I can get arecommendation from somebody
that I know, somebody that I'vemet and that I trust, that's a
good way to get a guest on theHey Chaplin podcast.
Identical twins.
One is a career firefighter, theother one is a homicide
(29:34):
detective.
Next time on Hey Chaplin.
Steve, how how much do you thinkthere was a rivalry in Kansas
City between police and fire?
Were they competitive?
Were they friendly?
What was your perception of it?
SPEAKER_00 (29:49):
Oh, it was friendly.
Oh yeah.
I mean, I don't like wouldn'tcall it a rivalry.
Um, we can jack with peoplequite a bit.
Well, I know you guys tease eachother.
Well, I mean, I can give you onespecific that I'd been on, he
wasn't on the job yet.
I'd been on about two or threeyears, and I worked up off
Quindara Boulevard, and we ran acall one time, medical call down
(30:11):
the street from the firehouse.
And of course, when we go on tothe scene, we pull up in the
rig, and there's ambulance withus, and when we get out, we
don't shut the fire truck off.
Fire truck is sitting thererunning.
Of course, PD showed up becauseit was a domestic violence call.
And um, so we took the patientout, lowered the patient up, and
we went back inside to get somegear, and we come back out, and
(30:34):
the fire truck's gone.
Oh no.
So the ambulance has alreadyleft, and we're standing there
with our bag and door lookingaround, going, what the hell is
going on here?
Well, we looked down the blockand there's two cop cars sitting
there.
And I won't, my captain and thedriver knew what had happened,
you know.
So they named that, they calledout the two, the one officer by
(30:55):
name, kind of cussed him, and wecould hear the fire truck
circling the block with thesiren on.
And they even drove by us twice.
And of course, we tried to getin the cop car, and they're
locked.
unknown (31:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:06):
So the police had taken the open fire truck.
They took the fire truck for ajoyride, and we're just standing
there, we couldn't do nothingabout it.
SPEAKER_01 (31:20):
The views expressed here are the personal views of
the host and our guest, and donot necessarily represent the
views of any law enforcementagency or its components.
Ian Hobbs is going to make agreat clinician, but he's not
your clinician.
The information presented inthis episode, including any
statements or opinions expressedby our guests, is for
(31:43):
informational purposes only andis not intended as a substitute
for professional psychologicaladvice, diagnosis, or treatment
by a clinician who has actuallymet you.
Always seek the advice of yourqualified mental health care
provider with any questions youmay have regarding your
condition and never disregardprofessional advice or delay
(32:07):
seeking it because of somethingyou heard on a podcast.
Go see a professional.
If you like this episode, pleaseshare it with a cop or someone
who loves a cop.
Thank you for listening to HeyChaplin.
And as always, let's pray forpeace in our cities.
This is Vinnie Montez.
I want to just give a shout outto the Hey Chaplin podcast.
You should be listening to it.
If you're not, you're a square.
SPEAKER_01 (00:08):
Welcome to Hey Chaplin.
My name is Jared Altic, and I'ma chaplain with the police
department.
The Hey Chaplin podcast is abouttalking to police officers who
say, Hey Chaplain, I've got astory to tell and some
hard-earned wisdom to share.
The guests on Hey Chaplin comefrom across the world, from the
LAPD, the Scotland Yard, fromThailand to Texas.
(00:32):
They are sharing their wisdom sothat you don't have to learn the
hard way.
And as Patrol Chaplain, I thinkyou deserve something positive
and encouraging.
Hey Chaplain is a free resourcefor everyone because of those
supporters who are quietlyhelping behind the scenes.
If you want to help this showreach more cops, chaplains, and
(00:55):
other first responders aroundthe world, please follow the
link in the episode descriptionto support the show.
When a cop tries to go tocounseling, the counselor
typically gets one chance tomake a good impression.
Either this is gonna go fairlywell and the cop will come back
again, or it won't go well, andthe cop will swear he'll never
(01:19):
go to another counselor the restof his life.
A growing number of secondcareer cops turned counselors
are determined to make ameaningful connection on that
first attempt.
Today's guest is Ian Hobbs.
Ian is a former homicidedetective and Marine Corps
veteran who is now starting asecond career as a clinician.
(01:42):
Ian is going to describe what hesaw in the military and in law
enforcement that made him wantto change careers and help in a
more direct way.
Here's Ian Hobbs.
Hello, Ian.
How are you today?
I'm doing all right.
How are you?
I'm doing great.
I'm glad you're here today.
I appreciate you driving over,be in the office with me, and
(02:03):
get to be across the table as weuh do the interview, and I
appreciate you taking the timeout to do that.
Tell me a little bit about yourlaw enforcement career.
SPEAKER_02 (02:13):
I started out at the Johnson County Sheriff's Office
over in Kansas.
Uh, went to the academy there in2006, and then uh worked
primarily detention until justuh the summer of 2009, went to
dispatch for a few months andthen uh That's actually a really
good base.
SPEAKER_01 (02:32):
I kind of wish every officer had that.
Either working in detentioncorrections or working in
dispatch.
Yeah, one or the other.
Some agencies require yeah, youhave to do one or the other
first.
SPEAKER_02 (02:43):
It definitely set me up, and I don't know if I would
have recognized this at thetime, but it definitely set me
up for my career down the road,because one of the things that
used to drive me nuts working inthe jail is you know, you're
arresting somebody, you havecontact with them for like 30
minutes or an hour.
If they're all fired up orsomething, you really like you
get to dump them at the jailwhen you book them, and then
(03:04):
you're done.
Um, at least where I worked, youwere assigned to a module for 30
days.
So if you got into it with oneof the one of the inmates,
you're you're having to interactwith them for the remainder of
those 29 days.
So certainly this balance ofbeing, I guess, firm but fair,
and then still being able torelate to people on a
(03:25):
professional level and andmaintaining boundaries at the
same time, but recognizing thatyou're better off not like
damaging these relationshipsbecause clearly there's a power
dynamic.
Yeah.
And I think that set me up ininteracting with people, both as
a detective and a patrol officerwhen I was a police officer.
I started at KCPD uh in Januaryof 2010, went to their academy,
(03:49):
um, and then hit the road.
I was uh patrol officer atCentral Patrol Division, uh,
which is like the downtown, uhmidtown area of uh of KC Mo.
Did that for about five years.
Uh, was a CIT officer, then wentto investigations.
Um so I started out in thespecial victims unit in the
crimes against children uhsection, and then kind of
(04:09):
bounced around in there inviolent crimes for about five
years between crimes againstchildren.
I went to the OvernightGeneralist Squad, which handles
anything violent crimes relatedovernight.
So robberies, sexual assaults,domestic violence, any of it.
And then we handed off to thosesquads, went back, did another
uh another stint in crimesagainst children, and then
(04:31):
eventually went to homicide uhat the end of 2019, and then was
there until June of 22 when I uhleft the police department.
SPEAKER_01 (04:39):
Okay.
So a lot of experience as adetective.
Yes.
Uh a good variety of differenttypes of cases, especially those
overnight things where you'rereally taking whatever happens
before you hand it off to theappropriate squad to, you know,
the where that's theirspecialty.
And so lots of experience inthat.
All of that after having been aMarine in Iraq.
SPEAKER_02 (05:01):
Yes.
So I was in the uh the MarineCorps Reserve, I enlisted in uh
2003, and then uh I have onedeployment to Iraq.
I was an infantryman.
Uh so spent a year in Iraq in2005 and around like the
Fallujah area.
Um, we got there right afterPhantom Fury, which is the
second battle of Fallujah.
Uh, so we did a lot of operatingoutside of the city, can kind
(05:21):
of, I guess, what you would callthe more rural areas, but then
came home, stayed in thereserve, and then continued my
law enforcement career.
SPEAKER_01 (05:27):
Okay.
Now, through all of this, you'realso doing a lot of education.
You went back to school and gotyour your degrees and went on,
got a master's degree.
And and early on, did you knowwhere you wanted to go with this
education?
SPEAKER_02 (05:43):
So very early on, no.
Um, you know, education wassomething that was important in
my family.
Um, so I knew I wanted to goback to I kind of attempted
college right before the MarineCorps, and it didn't go well.
I wasn't super disciplined.
Uh, shout out to my dad who haduh had encouraged me to to maybe
go do something else besidescollege because I wasn't ready.
(06:03):
But you know, you're 18 and youknow everything.
So um I decided to try itanyway, and it didn't it didn't
go well.
I went to Kansas State verybriefly and uh failed out, and
then uh the the Marine Corps andlaw enforcement were at my next
chapters.
Um so I knew I wanted to goback, um, but at the beginning I
didn't know what.
So I just like I had all thesecredits from the police
academies I'd been to and fromfrom the Marine Corps that
(06:26):
transferred over into some ofthe local colleges.
So I just went back and wasmajoring in criminal justice,
and then I started to developthis interest in mental health
and it pivoted that way.
SPEAKER_01 (06:36):
Let's pull on that thread of the mental health of
police officers and why itintrigues you, why you felt like
you could help, why do you whywere you pulled that direction?
SPEAKER_02 (06:50):
I was like I said, I was I was in the infantry in the
Marine Corps, and I I thinkprobably most everybody knows
what that means, but those aregenerally like the guys that are
actually engaged in combatoperations that are actually,
you know, uh kind of where the II it's hands-on.
Yes, very hands-on.
Um, so the guys that generallyare seeing the front lines of
combat.
And, you know, I worked at at aninner city police department,
(07:11):
and I was struck by the amountof suicides that I was
encountering.
To this day, I knowsignificantly more people who
have ended their lives bysuicide than have been killed in
the line of duty.
SPEAKER_01 (07:24):
And like when I say line of duty, I don't just mean
murdered, I mean car accidents,like other accidents, even even
heart attacks or other likethat, like the suicide is still
the number one in terms of amongyour peers, yes, suicide was a
bigger threat than workaccidents and violence and other
things.
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (07:44):
So I was really struck by that.
Like here are these individualsthat are at least on scene in
dealing with these things,really resilient to these these
critical situations as they'regoing on, but then you know,
months or even years later areso affected by them that they're
ending their lives.
And I was just drawn to liketrying to understand that with
(08:07):
the Marine Corps.
We had this is post-deployment.
So this is we're back, and Ican't remember if I was still in
the Marine Corps at this pointor if I had gotten out, but
there was uh a gentleman who's Iwon't share his name, but um had
that I served with that had hadcompleted suicide that had ended
their life by suicide.
And I went to his funeral, andhaving been to funerals of guys
who were were killed either incombat or like other accidental
(08:30):
means, the turnout was abysmal.
The like they they managed topiece together an honor guard,
but I the for a myriad ofreasons, it was not super
impressive.
Yeah.
And it was just my experiencelike on a larger scale was that
when people would killthemselves, that it was just it
was almost like they didn'texist.
(08:51):
Like where we have, um, as I'msure you've experienced as a
chaplain, when we have somebodywho's killed in the line of
duty, it is it's a it's a bigthing.
Like officers get the day off toattend their funeral, oftentimes
a neighboring agency will comein and cover the city.
SPEAKER_01 (09:05):
A lot of very deliberate effort to honor that
person.
SPEAKER_02 (09:08):
Um and my experience, I I think we've
gotten better about this, but myexperience, you know, 20 years
ago, 15 years ago, was that itwas almost like they just never
existed.
It was it was like we couldn'twe couldn't say the thing out
loud because then we wouldacknowledge there was a problem.
It was kind of what at leastwhat my individual experience
was.
SPEAKER_01 (09:26):
Yeah.
I think I think that's reallycommon though, yeah.
That that there is this feelingof of we can't say it out loud,
we can't name it out loudbecause it has a almost
contagious kind of feel to it.
That that if that if we if wesay it, if we if we embrace it
too clearly, then it would bebad for us.
(09:50):
Yeah.
And so we're going to keep it atarm's length.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (09:53):
Well, it's almost uh to a point, I feel like it's
also like the elephant in theroom.
So it's like if we say this outloud, then we have to
acknowledge that all of us aresusceptible to this.
SPEAKER_01 (10:02):
Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_02 (10:03):
I had a personal experience with somebody who was
close to me on the policedepartment where they ended up
in a mental health crisis, and Iwas in a position to intervene
in that.
And at the end of it, at thetime, I thought I handled it
like I felt inadequate in thetools that I had to deal with
that.
SPEAKER_01 (10:21):
Now you know, you were in a position to intervene
to talk to them.
SPEAKER_02 (10:26):
And try to get them help.
And and to they got help, to befair.
But at the time, looking back,I'm like, I didn't feel like I
had the the tools adequately uhto adequately handle it.
I I felt at the time like Ididn't have the tools to
adequately address thesituation.
Now I can say looking back on itnow that with with the the
training and experience that Ihave now, that I think I handled
(10:49):
it as best I could with the withthe skill set that I had.
But a couple of things struck meabout that situation, one of
which was initially, like eventhough I was a mess because I
was a close to this person,there wasn't a ton of support,
at least in the initial 24hours.
Um so they kind of circled thewagons around this person.
They took them, took them to gethelp.
(11:09):
And I remember there was amoment I'm standing on the side
of the road uh outside thisperson's house after everybody's
left, and I'm just like lookingaround, and I'm I'm all alone.
Nobody had put their shoulder onme and been like, hey, or like
this is probably really intensefor you.
Are you okay?
Um, and I just I went home.
And uh it was, I think it wasabout midway through the next
day.
(11:30):
But somebody from the departmentwho was one of their mental
health providers eventuallyreached out to me.
And I don't know what the behindthe scenes occurrence of that
was, but I have a feeling thatsomebody was talking to them
about this, and they're like,Hey, did anybody check on Ian?
And I think they're like, Oh,no, he's still on his days off,
so we haven't.
So they reached out to me.
SPEAKER_01 (11:48):
But it's so easy for people to slip through the
cracks like that.
Yes, yeah.
I've been in those meetingswhere you got the peer support
and maybe the wellness officer,and we're like, oh, wait a
second, have we checked onso-and-so?
Yeah.
And no, we haven't.
And you know, we go scramble tomake sure they have support.
But but yeah, that's I've I'vebeen on the other side of that.
SPEAKER_02 (12:07):
Yeah.
I was struck by both of thosethings.
A, what felt like this becausethere were warning signs with
this person.
Um, and I had kind of started toraise the alarm a couple of
times, and and it felt like itkind of fell on deaf ears.
But then also the notrecognizing that, like, hey,
this probably significantlyimpacted Ian.
(12:29):
And like nobody at the timethought to look at and to be
fair, even I internally at thatmoment didn't think.
I think it was after everything,everything had kind of calmed
down, and that's when Irealized, like, I'm a mess.
Like that this was a veryintense experience, and I
probably need some help.
SPEAKER_01 (12:46):
Yeah, yeah.
So you've worked in like I Ikeep saying you've worked in a
variety.
I I'm really pleased when I seean officer who has had a chance
to sit in all the differentseats on the bus.
Yeah, and that's just I thinkthat makes for a great career.
And you worked in homicide,which a lot of people assume,
like, oh, that's super intense.
Yeah.
And it is in its way.
(13:06):
But the the detectives that I'vealways personally worried about
are the ones who work crimesagainst children.
Yeah.
And you've done a couple stintsin that.
Uh, how do you feel the state ofthe officer's mental health, the
detective's mental health waswhen you were in those units?
So do you think they handled itwell?
(13:27):
Do you think they had goodsupport?
SPEAKER_02 (13:29):
No.
Um You know, I think if they hadsought it out that the support
would have been there.
Um but I think one of therecurrent patterns that I see in
working with police officers, orreally first responders and even
veterans at large, is helpersaren't good at asking for help.
And so there's also this sense,um, and it's something I've
(13:52):
heard a ton of cops say when I'mworking with them, of this
belief that they're the onlyones that are experiencing this
negative emotion.
Um, we do a really good job inlaw enforcement of
compartmentalizing, and it's animportant skill.
It's so important to be able tofunction in these environments
that are high stress, and you'reseeing things that largely
inherently bad tocompartmentalize.
(14:13):
No, it's what you do with itafterwards that is the problem.
So we get really good at sshoving these things in a box,
but nobody ever opens the box upand is like, well, I probably
should unpack these and likekind of work my way through this
to experience the feelings thatcome with it.
And then eventually the box isjust kind of bursting at the
scene.
SPEAKER_01 (14:30):
It's not bad to put leftovers in a container in the
fridge.
It's bad to have never openedthat container back up again
years later.
SPEAKER_02 (14:37):
It's a great analogy.
I'm probably gonna use thatagain uh down the road.
SPEAKER_01 (14:40):
I just cleaned out the fridge recently.
So I was like, what happenedhere?
Why did we never come back tothis?
SPEAKER_02 (14:46):
I don't know that this is just symptomatic of that
that specific unit outside ofthe fact that the content you're
dealing with in that unit isvery um intense.
It shocks the conscience.
The issue, largely, I thinkbroader with police departments,
is there's just not a ton ofconnection with a like mental
health professional or uh asupport system that's there.
(15:08):
That it is it is reactive.
You either a critical incidenthas to occur, something that's
really intense has to occur, orthe officer has to ask for help.
And my experience is, and I'veseen this happen, I've seen it
happen uh at one of the agenciesI work with where an officer
went to the department and islike, hey, I'm struggling
(15:30):
because of X, Y, and Z.
And suddenly they're yanked offduty, they're on modified
assignment, they're doing limit,they're doing fit for duties.
Yeah.
And I understand that it'sprobably difficult to balance
like making sure that somebodywho you're sending out into the
community with a gun and a badgeis in the right mindset with
also taking care of them.
But I think that that messagelargely screams like, ooh, I
(15:53):
need to not say something tosomeone.
SPEAKER_01 (15:55):
It hurts on a couple levels.
It hurts that officer to takehim out of his uh normal
environment, all away from thepeople who support him, away
from the things that he uses toset his identity, and and you're
gonna take all of that away fromhim, and it could hurt him in
the moment, but then also itsends a message to everybody
(16:15):
else.
I will lose what I value themost if I it if I indicate that
I need help.
Yes.
Becoming a member of thehomicide unit for a lot of guys,
that is their career goal.
Yeah.
You know, I want to be ahomicide detective.
That is that is that I will knowthat I've made it.
Yes.
When when I can say that is myjob at the police department.
(16:36):
So you're there, but you'reapparently already being pulled
in another direction.
SPEAKER_02 (16:43):
So I'd gone back to school, and this is the same
time I'd started to developinterest in officer mental
health, and it started out withveteran mental health, and I was
saying the same things in lawenforcement.
But I was in a uh veteran CITtraining course, and uh I'd
gotten to a point whereeventually I facilitated some of
those.
I can't remember which one ofthe two it was.
Uh-huh.
But a social worker from the VAthat we worked with regularly
(17:06):
named Claude Gidry, shout out toClaude if he's still out there
and working for the VA.
Um, I'd walked up to him and uhafter a class that he'd taught,
and I was like, hey, I like Ithink I might be interested in
becoming a therapist.
And uh, you know, I was thinkingabout getting a master's degree
in psychology.
And uh there are several pathsthat you can get master's
degree-wise to do therapy.
(17:27):
But Claude's like, no, you wantto you want a master's degree in
social work.
And I'm like, no, I don't wantto be a social worker.
Like just thinking kind ofclassically what a social worker
is, not understanding what aclinical social worker is.
So he kind of explained that tome, and then that kind of
launched my interest in that.
And at this point, I had waspretty deep into my uh criminal
(17:47):
justice degree to pivot tosocial work and then try to do
what's called an advancedstanding degree where I can do a
master's in a year.
So I just I went ahead andfinished my bachelor's in
criminal justice and uh ended upgetting accepted to uh KU,
University of Kansas' socialwork program at the Edwards
campus, and then did athree-year program of that.
I graduated in uh May of 2018and then continued to work at
(18:10):
the police department, uh, likeyou said, went to homicide at
the end of 2019 and uh was doingthat, did that for about three
years and had kind of justreached a point towards the end
of homicide, uh towards the endof that time where I had really
started to think that maybe mylaw enforcement career just run
its course and I was maybe readyto move on to the next thing.
(18:30):
How do you know that?
Um, you know, a myriad of thingshad occurred.
Um I was I hit homicide aboutthe time that 2020 happened, um
and all the various experiencesof of 2020, uh, you know,
interacting with with thosesituations.
So there was already kind ofthis shift where you were
experiencing a lot of anegativity.
And I I think most policeofficers saw their social circle
(18:52):
shrink significantly during thattime.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:54):
Uh well on so many levels because George Floyd
happened uh concurrent withCOVID.
Yes.
I mean, you're isolated on as acop, you're isolated on every
level that you can be isolated.
SPEAKER_00 (19:08):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (19:08):
And so so yeah, that was that was unpleasant.
SPEAKER_02 (19:11):
So I that was kind of the beginning of it, and uh
just recognizing you knowburnout.
The the stressors in homicideare very different from the
stressors and crimes againstchildren.
And you know, for for me atleast, crimes against children,
the stressor, there's certainlyuh organizational stress and
crimes against children, but thecontent is a lot worse than the
organizational stress in termsof like with the case material.
(19:34):
Um homicide for me, myexperience was that it was a lot
more organizational stress.
There's a lot more like we gottawe gotta clear these murders, we
gotta, we gotta get this casecleared, we have to, hey,
where's what's going on withthis murder?
SPEAKER_01 (19:46):
There's Are we building this case well enough
for it to like ch Status?
SPEAKER_02 (19:51):
And there's just a lot of moving parts, and there's
a lot of high-ranking people,uh, understandably, but there's
a lot of high-ranking people inthe police department and the
prosecutor's office and the citywho are occasionally checking on
these things.
SPEAKER_01 (20:04):
And they're they're not interfering.
A lot of they're just checking,they're just sure.
SPEAKER_02 (20:08):
Um, there's a lot of like people looking over your
shoulder, and that becomesstressful.
Yes.
Um, so you work a lot ofovertime, like a ton of overtime
when you're in homicide, andthere's not really uh kind of a
spigot to shut it off becauseyou're just so so busy uh that
there's always work to be done.
Yeah.
Having worked as much as I wasworking, plus I think you know,
(20:31):
I COVID probably played a rolein terms of limiting social
interaction there.
So a lot of the supports, butlike one of the bigger things
that you try to promote topolice officers is a life
outside of law enforcement.
SPEAKER_01 (20:43):
And for a year, year and a half, most of the stuff
was shut down.
SPEAKER_02 (20:47):
Right.
There was no there was no goingto you know the bar to hang out
with your friends.
I don't know, necessarilydrinking is the the no, but but
any kind of social yeah,restaurants are restaurants are
closed.
SPEAKER_01 (20:57):
Everything from restaurants to churches to to to
clubs to sporting events, it itit was all yeah limited.
SPEAKER_02 (21:05):
I don't remember which one it was, but I I think
the NFL I think was in emptystadiums and MLB was in like
half full stadiums, or maybe theother way around.
I don't remember which one itwas.
See, there was just nothing todo, so there's a lot of going
home.
I think I watched all of Netflixum DoorDash way more than I
should have.
That was actually when Idiscovered DoorDash was during
the the pandemic.
So there were just a number offactors, and there was also just
(21:26):
I had been doing my own work interms of mental health.
I've I've personally been intherapy since I think 2012.
And there was just a recognitionthat this is an emotionally
caustic environment to work in.
And that that's not a dig atanything at my agencies.
It just is the source material.
SPEAKER_01 (21:43):
It just is like it is you're dealing with
everybody's worst tragedies.
SPEAKER_02 (21:48):
Right.
And and there is some part ofthat that attaches to you while
you're dealing with it.
You you can as it as good as youare at compartmentalization,
there is just human beings ingeneral weren't meant.
To see as much stuff as firstresponders do.
It's just and it's uh it isrecurrent.
And uh there's kind of uniquedifferences between that and the
(22:10):
military, and individualexperiences will vary, but I
think there's a complexity tofirst responder work that is
more emotionally caustic in mostcases.
There again, individualexperiences may vary.
Yeah, that is more caustic tofirst responder work.
And it's just deployments in themilitary are you leave
(22:31):
everything that you are kind ofattached to here in the US, you
go to Iraq, Afghanistan, Horn ofAfrica, one of these places that
we're seeing, you know, now atleast the mid the Middle East
around Iran.
And often like you're just init, you're removed in a
completely differentenvironment.
And the culture is different,the people are different, the
people generally look differentthan you, they speak a different
(22:52):
language, the things that arecustoms there are completely
different.
Um, the environment smellsdifferent, it's just very
different, and then you'reengaged in these things, and
you're also completelycompartmentalized with other
people that are doing the samething.
Yeah.
And then you come home.
And certainly re-integration, Ithink reintegration is probably
the hardest part of the militaryin terms of coming back and then
(23:13):
trying to figure out.
Um, and I wasn't married when Iwent to Iraq, um, but trying to
figure out how to reintegrateinto a household that has
largely adjusted to functionwithout you there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Versus first responder work,where to this day, still even
for me, when I drive around thecity, I'm like, oh, that's where
this happened, that's where thishappened, that's where this
happened.
And it for me, it's yeah, I'm ina healthy place with it where
(23:35):
it's not distracting or, youknow, it doesn't really take me
out of the moment, but it it'sthere.
And it's, you know, there's not,I don't drive by the place
where, you know, where one of mybuddies got wounded by an IED,
you know, when I'm drivingaround Kansas City.
Right.
So there's the and it there'sthe the added complexity of you
(23:56):
go experience one of thesethings and then you go home, and
suddenly you're changing yourkid's diaper and you're mowing
the lawn and you're cookingdinner and you're doing all the
kind of mundane tasks of life,and then you go back to it
tomorrow.
SPEAKER_01 (24:10):
Yeah, and going back and forth is its own interesting
thing that we're doingpsychologically.
SPEAKER_02 (24:15):
Yeah, absolutely.
Or you're switching kind of backand forth these modes of your
brain.
SPEAKER_01 (24:19):
Yeah, yeah.
So you are well on your way toto establishing yourself as a
clinician.
Yes.
Uh, you've done thousands andthousands of hours and you're
you're getting all all the boxeschecked to progress through this
part and start this new chapterof your life.
And I'm really excited for you.
I think that's fantastic.
(24:39):
I I would really like to seemore officers thinking in terms
of like, okay, what is my nextchapter?
Because it could happen soonerthan what you absolutely can
happen overnight.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So so you're you're doing greatand and getting that
established.
What is your big hairy audaciousgoal with with what you want to
(25:02):
do at this next chapter of yourlife?
SPEAKER_02 (25:03):
So I'm finishing up clinical supervision to be a
therapist uh right now.
Once that is like done, once Iso I should be done this August,
assuming I don't screw up andfail my clinical exam.
Um You're fine.
You're fine.
All right.
Once that's done and we hitAugust and I can individually
license, uh, my my goal would beto just kind of launch my own
(25:23):
practice and work on treatingfirst responders and and
veterans is kind of my target,target audience.
Um, primarily treating trauma.
But I you know, you can treatthe peripheral things there too.
Um, but that is really the goal.
That's why I got into this wasto uh help police officers,
first responders, veterans umthat don't maybe feel like they
can relate to a therapist.
(25:44):
Yeah.
I personally believe that theclinical relationship is the
most important part of thetherapeutic experience.
Um certain, certainly clinicalknowledges, modality, different
things like that are importanttoo.
I'm not dismissing those, mylike you have to know what
you're doing once you'reinvolved in the relationship.
But creating an environmentwhere these people are willing
(26:06):
to share like their worst daywith you, where they're already
experiencing kind of a publicthat that pries on them with
that sort of thing.
And it's not a story that mostother people have earned the
right to hear.
And I'm sure you've seen this asa chaplain, but like the
question when somebody meets youand they find out you're a
police officer that I've gottenmore than anywhere else is what
(26:26):
is the worst thing you've everseen?
And realistically, you don'twant to know what the worst
thing I've ever seen is.
It's it's not also thank you forforcing me to relive what might
be the worst day of my lifeinvoluntarily in this moment
while I'm trying to get a sodaquick trip.
So there's just the there's thisconditioning to experience these
kind of negative socialinteractions.
(26:47):
And I think for a myriad ofreasons, including the one that
I I talked about a little bitago, where you know, I know of a
guy who went to the departmentas like, hey, I need to take
some time off to get myselfright.
And then it it resulted in thisreally negative experience.
You know, what is what is thetherapist required to tell?
If I tell them that I'mstruggling at work, are they
gonna run and tell mydepartment?
(27:07):
What are the protections inplace?
Um and I know people who havehad really negative experiences
with having their therapistrecords subpoenaed, and uh, you
know, whether the therapistchose to fight the subpoena or
not was, you know, like a bigcontingent for them.
One of the things that I Ireally try to honor and take
seriously is if if a policeofficer or first responder comes
(27:30):
to me for therapy, my experienceis that you really only have one
shot to give them a positiveexperience where they will
continue therapy.
We're not conditioned as helpersto ask for help.
No.
And the act of doing that Ithink is so uncomfortable that
if they get in there and detectthat there's judgment, this
(27:50):
person doesn't get me, um, maybethis person is opposed to what I
do for a living just becausethey're they're they're not
super friendly towards lawenforcement, then I what I have
seen is that what that will leadto is I'm never coming back here
again.
I've had this negativeexperience.
I tried the opening up myfeelings.
SPEAKER_01 (28:09):
Well, I didn't want to do this anyway, and my first
taste of it was negative.
I'm never going back.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Ian Hobbs, thank you so much forcoming in today.
Thank you for doing what you'redoing, both in your service in
law enforcement and military andalso in your service as a
clinician.
SPEAKER_02 (28:27):
Well, thank you so much.
I really appreciate you havingme.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (28:32):
I want to thank Ian Hobbs for being on the show
today, and I'm especiallyexcited to have gotten to know
him because I'm always lookingfor another culturally competent
clinician about whom I can feelexcited and confident to
recommend them.
I also want to give a shout outto Jake, the International
(28:53):
Security Specialist guy, whorecommended Ian and said, You
need to get to know this guy.
Let me reach out to him for you,make a contact so that you can
get him on your show.
I get a lot of emails solicitingmy show to be like, hey, here's
a book that's being written, andwe want the author to be on your
show.
(29:13):
I'm not interested in most ofthose.
If instead I can get arecommendation from somebody
that I know, somebody that I'vemet and that I trust, that's a
good way to get a guest on theHey Chaplin podcast.
Identical twins.
One is a career firefighter, theother one is a homicide
(29:34):
detective.
Next time on Hey Chaplin.
Steve, how how much do you thinkthere was a rivalry in Kansas
City between police and fire?
Were they competitive?
Were they friendly?
What was your perception of it?
SPEAKER_00 (29:49):
Oh, it was friendly.
Oh yeah.
I mean, I don't like wouldn'tcall it a rivalry.
Um, we can jack with peoplequite a bit.
Well, I know you guys tease eachother.
Well, I mean, I can give you onespecific that I'd been on, he
wasn't on the job yet.
I'd been on about two or threeyears, and I worked up off
Quindara Boulevard, and we ran acall one time, medical call down
(30:11):
the street from the firehouse.
And of course, when we go on tothe scene, we pull up in the
rig, and there's ambulance withus, and when we get out, we
don't shut the fire truck off.
Fire truck is sitting thererunning.
Of course, PD showed up becauseit was a domestic violence call.
And um, so we took the patientout, lowered the patient up, and
we went back inside to get somegear, and we come back out, and
(30:34):
the fire truck's gone.
Oh no.
So the ambulance has alreadyleft, and we're standing there
with our bag and door lookingaround, going, what the hell is
going on here?
Well, we looked down the blockand there's two cop cars sitting
there.
And I won't, my captain and thedriver knew what had happened,
you know.
So they named that, they calledout the two, the one officer by
(30:55):
name, kind of cussed him, and wecould hear the fire truck
circling the block with thesiren on.
And they even drove by us twice.
And of course, we tried to getin the cop car, and they're
locked.
unknown (31:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:06):
So the police had taken the open fire truck.
They took the fire truck for ajoyride, and we're just standing
there, we couldn't do nothingabout it.
SPEAKER_01 (31:20):
The views expressed here are the personal views of
the host and our guest, and donot necessarily represent the
views of any law enforcementagency or its components.
Ian Hobbs is going to make agreat clinician, but he's not
your clinician.
The information presented inthis episode, including any
statements or opinions expressedby our guests, is for
(31:43):
informational purposes only andis not intended as a substitute
for professional psychologicaladvice, diagnosis, or treatment
by a clinician who has actuallymet you.
Always seek the advice of yourqualified mental health care
provider with any questions youmay have regarding your
condition and never disregardprofessional advice or delay
(32:07):
seeking it because of somethingyou heard on a podcast.
Go see a professional.
If you like this episode, pleaseshare it with a cop or someone
who loves a cop.
Thank you for listening to HeyChaplin.
And as always, let's pray forpeace in our cities.
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