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Today we're coming back to our interview with identical twin first responders Stuart and Steve Littlefield. Stuart is thirty-year cop, on the SWAT team and also a homicide detective; Steve is the thirty year firefighter. Both worked at the same time in the same city, my home of KCK. Today we're going to to talk about a couple of dramatic critical incidents they were involved in and also answer the question of which service is healthier and which one is worse.
Hey Chaplain Episode 142 Part Two
Music is by DJ Williams
Tags:
Police, Fire, Accident, Barricade, Crime, Culture, Danger, House Fire, Injury, Mental Health, Murder, Risk, Rivalry, Shooting, SWAT, Kansas City, Kansas
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
My name is Chaplin Deborah Fontez.
(00:01):
I'm the senior chaplain inSacramento, California.
And thank you for listening toHey Chaplin Podcast.
SPEAKER_03 (00:10):
Welcome to Hey Chaplin.
My name is Jared Altic, and I'ma chaplain with the police
department.
The Hey Chaplin Podcast is abouttalking to police officers who
say, Hey Chaplin, I've got astory to tell and some
hard-earned wisdom to share.
From the LAPD to Scotland Yard,the guests on Hey Chaplin are
(00:30):
sharing their wisdom andexperience with you so that you
don't have to learn everythingthe hard way.
When a police officer listens toHey Chaplin for the first time,
I'd like them to be able to findthe information about the show
and see a lot of positiveencouragement that this is
worthwhile.
So if you would go to ApplePodcasts or Spotify or any place
(00:52):
you might listen to the show andleave a five-star rating and a
written review, that would helpa ton.
If you're on social media likeFacebook or Instagram, if you
would please like the show,follow the show, that would help
out a lot.
A recommendation from you wouldmean the world.
(01:12):
Today we're coming back to ourinterview with identical twin
first responders Stuart andSteve Littlefield.
Stuart is the 30-year cop on theSWAT team and also a homicide
detective.
Steve is a 30-year firefighter.
Both worked at the same time inthe same city, my home of Kansas
(01:33):
City, Kansas.
Today we're going to talk abouta couple of the dramatic,
critical incidents that theywere involved in and also answer
the question of which service ishealthier and which one is
worse.
Here are brothers Stuart andSteve Littlefield.
(01:53):
Tell me about a time that youguys found yourselves on the
same scene as a firefighter andas a cop.
Tell me about being on the samescene.
SPEAKER_01 (02:01):
So the biggest call we were ever on, and we we had a
few calls together, but nothingmonumental, nothing as
monumental as this.
So this would have been in thelate 90s, early 2000s.
There was a domestic call up offQuindero Boulevard.
And Quindero Boulevard is thenortheast corner of Kansas City,
kind of a high crime area, andright around the corner from
(02:22):
where Stephen Station was.
So this was around Alice inQuindero, which is near 7th
Street.
Steve's station was off of like9th or 10th.
SPEAKER_03 (02:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (02:32):
Small neighborhood in the northeast part of Kansas
City called Quindero Homes.
Very small, uh tight community,very small houses.
And this was a specificcul-de-sac where a husband and
wife lived in one house, and onthe other side of the
cul-de-sac, the wife's fatherlived.
unknown (02:50):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (02:51):
And so there was some pre-planning here, which
I'll get into in a minutebecause it makes this story a
lot deeper.
But apparently, the husband andwife got involved in a domestic
altercation.
Her father came across thestreet and shot her husband.
SPEAKER_03 (03:07):
And killed him?
SPEAKER_01 (03:08):
And killed him.
And then retreated back into hishouse.
And uh officers arrived.
And I I don't know if it cameout as a as a shooting, but when
they knocked on the door, theguy opened fire.
And from what I saw, he shotabove the police officer.
I think he could have killedhim.
I don't think he wanted to killa copy.
SPEAKER_03 (03:28):
Yep.
The shooting at the police.
At the police.
Is fire on scene yet?
SPEAKER_02 (03:33):
No.
We so this has all happened.
We fire probably came in tenminutes later, maybe.
SPEAKER_03 (03:40):
Okay.
And you are doing what job andwhere are you at?
SPEAKER_01 (03:44):
So I was on the SWAT team.
Okay.
I'm at home doing Sunday stuff.
My pager goes off.
And I remember it was it was inthe wintertime, but it was in
the 50s out, really nice out.
And so we respond to the sceneand we surround the house.
It started out at, like I said,50 degrees.
By late afternoon, it was downto 19 degrees.
(04:05):
Uh-huh.
And we were cold and it wasmiserable.
So this guy is in the house.
At one point, they thought hemight have killed himself.
Right.
We're not really sure.
Uh they sent a dog in.
The dog didn't alert, dog cameback out.
So they had us make entry.
And you know, these houses areonly 10, 15 feet apart, maybe
even closer.
SPEAKER_03 (04:24):
Yeah.
Little tiny houses all closetogether.
SPEAKER_01 (04:27):
Yes, it's like two-bedroom little house.
And so uh we we formed an entryteam and we came into the house,
and uh one team took the livingroom, and my partner and I took
the kitchen, and then there wasa hallway went into the back,
and I heard somebody saysomething.
And we don't talk in an entry,uh, slow and deliberate.
(04:48):
We don't, there's no talking atall.
And so I was a little bitirritated that somebody was
talking, and then I heard ourteam leader at the hallway say,
What did you say?
And a voice from the back fromthe back said, If you come back
here, I'm gonna kill you.
So eight comps went in, eightcomps came out.
And we gave I it's not reallymaybe a good idea to get that
(05:09):
ground, but there's nothingthere that'll stop a bullet.
Um, and so we backed out andthen we had a full-blown
standoff, okay, which lastedlate into the afternoon.
SPEAKER_02 (05:18):
When did fire show up?
I was working for somebody thatday.
The captain that was on the rigthat day needed off by noon, so
I didn't show up until noon.
So he was only down there forabout two hours.
Right.
Fire got there probably it wasprobably 20, 30 minutes after
the call came out for ashooting.
Okay, and uh are you on standbyfor medical?
SPEAKER_03 (05:38):
Okay, right.
SPEAKER_02 (05:39):
Yes, and we're probably two blocks down the
road.
Okay, but we get we had a lineof sight, we could see what's
happening.
SPEAKER_03 (05:43):
That sounds like the place where a cop would make a
sarcastic joke about you guysstaging two blocks away.
But I won't say it, but that'sway easier.
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (05:52):
So so at noon, I come in to relieve the captain I
was working for, and he took mytruck back to the fire station,
and then I didn't think it wasgonna be that big of a deal.
And it, like I said, it was longand drawn out, and all we did is
sit in the fire truck for 10hours.
SPEAKER_03 (06:07):
How aware are you if you see some indication or hear
radio traffic that indicatesthat the SWAT team is on scene?
How aware are you that yourbrothers up there, maybe in that
house or near that house, orabout to go in that house?
SPEAKER_02 (06:22):
Very aware then, because he hadn't been on that
long then.
Um probably four or five years,maybe, if that?
Probably five.
So I knew the score I knew theywere on scene, but I didn't know
where they were at or what theywere doing.
We we we were communicated,there was a a uh command staff
officer coming back and givingus updates what's going on every
(06:42):
now and then, every half anhour.
But we're you know, we're 100yards down the road.
Okay.
You kind of see what's going on.
SPEAKER_03 (06:48):
But how aware are you?
Are you hearing things likeradio traffic mentioning pumper
five or anything like that?
SPEAKER_01 (06:55):
I never had a clue.
Our radios are we have a commonchance.
SPEAKER_03 (06:59):
You're just listening to your never occurred
to me.
SPEAKER_01 (07:01):
Um, and uh, you know, we were pretty busy.
Yeah, um, and there was uh sonow we've got a guy in the
house, armed, he's alreadykilled one person, shot at the
police.
Uh, and he's not going anywhere.
We have a barricade, time's onour side.
We did not have a robot at thetime, but bomb robots were just
coming onto the scene.
Uh-huh.
So our chief, and I God lovehim, he called up Kansas City,
(07:22):
Missouri and wanted their robot.
Robots are worth a lot of money.
SPEAKER_00 (07:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (07:26):
So they made an agreement that we'll give you
the robot.
You can use it after the scene'sdone to do surveillance.
So they brought the robot andthe chief sent it straight to
the house.
SPEAKER_03 (07:36):
This is not a bulletproof robot.
No.
This is a very expensive robotthat belonged to Kansas City,
Missouri.
SPEAKER_01 (07:42):
Yeah, but you know, in his opinion, we'll buy a new
robot.
I don't want to lose a cop.
Yeah.
So um, we didn't get much out ofthe robot.
Long story short, this is thisis drawing out hours, and we're
getting colder by the minute.
We started evacuating uh housesaround there uh as a safety
precaution.
SPEAKER_03 (07:59):
And this is going into the evening, correct.
SPEAKER_01 (08:01):
And one lady, God bless her, she said, I left a
pot of coffee on for you guys,and there's cookies on my table.
And we drank coffee and it cameout.
Oh, really?
SPEAKER_03 (08:09):
Yes, really?
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (08:11):
So uh they finally get to the point, we introduce
gas to the house.
I think he had a gas mask.
We looked at it later.
I don't recall.
SPEAKER_02 (08:19):
He did, he had a gas mask.
He was he was a Vietnam vet.
SPEAKER_01 (08:22):
Okay, okay, and so um gas didn't work.
So the next step is to introducesmoke.
And if you understand how smokeworks, so that you would throw
the canister in, and as thecanister burns and the smoke
begins to fill the house, itpushes the oxygen out.
Uh and so you have a choice, youcan come out or you can stay in
(08:43):
and suffocate.
So we introduced smoke into thehouse from the back to the
front.
Uh it was my partner and I.
Uh, he is throwing the canisterthrough the window, and I'm
providing lethal cover.
Yeah.
And so we kind of made aclockwise move around the house.
And uh when we got to the veryfront window, we, you know,
(09:04):
anytime you threw smoke in, thecandles would begin to burn,
you'd see the curtains catchfire and glow.
And then pretty soon the smokewould push out the oxygen and
the fire would die.
So we got all the way backaround to the front of the
house, and he put a canisterthrough the window, and the
curtains began to burn like theyalways did.
And then I don't know what wasthere, but something exploded.
(09:26):
Boom! And the front door slammedshut and then slammed back open.
And that fed oxygen into thehouse, and that house went up
like a Roman candle.
If only we had a firefighterhere to explain that to us,
Steve.
SPEAKER_02 (09:41):
So we're sitting down the block, and of course,
the commander that had beentalking to us, letting us know
what's going on.
Hey, we're getting ready to dothis.
You know, we know there'sprobably gonna be a fire pretty
quick.
You guys be ready to come in.
So we saw it, this happened, andthe fire started growing, and it
blew the front window out.
And what time?
So it's dark.
It's getting dark, yeah.
(10:01):
Okay, all right.
And uh the fire's rolling, it'sit's building.
And uh he comes up, he goes,What do you think?
And I'm like, I said, but I'lltell you what, I said, uh, he'd
have to be Superman to still bealive inside there.
There's no way that that guy'sstill alive inside the house.
He goes, Are you sure?
I said, 99%.
He says we need to know for surebecause you're not going in
(10:23):
unless you know for you thinkfor sure he's dead.
Okay.
Stuart.
SPEAKER_01 (10:26):
Well, and and I heard on the radio, once again,
God bless our chief.
He's talking to our sergeant onthe SWAT channel, and he says,
Is it survivable?
Our sergeant said, It's hard totell right now.
And the chief said, Let me knowwhen it's not survivable,
because he was not gonna send afireman in there to get killed
by a man with a gun.
(10:47):
Yeah.
Now, me, I was so cold, it wascold out that um I had been
around the corner, kind ofbehind a tree.
Great big oak tree, pretty goodcover.
I stepped around that tree toget close to the house to warm
up because I I didn't even thinkabout getting shot.
I was freezing.
Yeah.
And so moments later, it thehouse was fully involved, and
(11:09):
then they rolled up.
SPEAKER_02 (11:10):
And then and then also, too, so we're there for a
standby for a shooting.
Yeah.
For like a medical call.
For hours.
For hours.
Well, so when the house catchesfire, I called it in.
Hey, we have a working structurefire.
And being that it's closeproximity to other houses, we
have what they call a generalalarm, which is an upgrade to a
regular house fire.
(11:30):
Okay.
So we got at that time, we gotthree more pumpers and an aerial
truck to come in.
Okay.
To, you know, just so we haveresources, whatever we need.
And the crazy thing is that atthat time, one of our cousins
had just gotten on the firedepartment with me.
You got the whole Littlefieldclan working the house of the
(11:51):
scene.
So our cousin, Mike, Sapeka, isworking on 14 struck, and 14
strucks showed up.
So then when we made entry in toput the fire out, he's with me,
and we went in, and that's whenwe found uh the shooter.
Okay.
He was deceased in the hallway,and he had a his he had turned a
uh his linen closet into like uhan ammo depot.
(12:13):
Oh wow.
I mean, it was he had tons oftons of rounds of ammunition in
there, and so he is layingdeceased on the floor.
SPEAKER_03 (12:20):
Ammunition that has already caused the fire to
increase.
No, no, no, no.
Okay, okay.
But but that but that's adanger.
You're in a fully involvedstructure fire with ammunition
in one of the rooms.
SPEAKER_02 (12:30):
Well, yes and no.
Okay.
I mean, it's it's not gonna doanything but pop because it's
not contained.
Okay.
And it's not like a bomb, butbut he had black powder and
stuff there, too, though.
So yeah, there was a there was adanger in it.
Very cavalier about flammablethings.
It's just the fire experience.
So when they so once we get inthere and find him, he's laying
(12:51):
on his back on the floor, and hehad a he had knocked, he had a
had had a gas mask on, but itwas off.
But he had an M1 Garan rifle onhis chest like he was getting
ready to kill himself.
Really?
And it was up under his jaw, andthen his little dog was laying
next to him.
SPEAKER_03 (13:07):
Wow, wow, and he succumbed before he took life.
SPEAKER_02 (13:11):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (13:11):
Okay.
Smoke got him.
SPEAKER_01 (13:13):
The funniest part was these guys didn't know what
we had done.
And so all these the fire's out,it's still smoldering, and they
all took their masks off and gota big wave of all that tear gas
we put in, and they were cussingus.
SPEAKER_03 (13:26):
We come, I mean, like a rocket right outside.
Smoke is no big deal to youguys.
That's a that's an element youdon't normally have.
SPEAKER_01 (13:36):
But it gets better because I told you this story
got deeper.
Yeah.
So he had an outbuilding, like alittle detached shed for his
lawnmower.
There was a dead prostitute inthere.
So he had planned this.
His plan was welcome to KansasCity.
Yes.
It's a normal just another dayfor us.
SPEAKER_03 (13:53):
Normal, normal Sunday afternoon.
SPEAKER_01 (13:54):
His plan was he was going to kill his son-in-law.
He was going to bring theprostitute over to their house,
burn it down.
He was going to identify hisdaughter, the body and the son.
And then apparently he and hisdaughter planned on escaping
somewhere with maybe someinsurance money.
Okay.
I don't know what happened, whatwent south on that, but she
(14:17):
obviously changed plans at thelast minute.
So it was kind of a really weirdtwist when we're looking at
back.
And after we introduced gas, weopened up that back, that back
shed, and there's a body ofanother woman there.
Wow.
So ended up being a crazy, crazycall out.
But at the end, since the threeof us were, I'm decked out in my
tack gear and they're in theirfirefighter gear.
(14:38):
So we took a really cool pictureat in that house.
And uh, it's one of the thingsthat I treasure most.
SPEAKER_02 (14:43):
And the crazy thing with that story, you know,
nowadays there's newseverywhere.
Of course, everybody has acamera.
Back then, in the mid to late90s, I'm not even sure it made
the news.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But if people would have knownthat, I mean that it was it was
a crazy call.
Yeah.
So when did you retire?
I left in uh October of 22.
SPEAKER_03 (15:03):
Okay.
So you both worked from the 90sup through the 2000s and the
201s.
Which service was healthier forthe average firefighter, the
average police officer?
What who who had a healthierenvironment, like emotionally,
psychologically, to work in?
SPEAKER_01 (15:24):
I think nationwide, I think firefighters do.
Um, I the why do you say that?
Well, the pace is slower.
You know, they the we get teaseda lot.
I still do today, you know, uh,firemen, hey, can we get help on
this call?
And they'll say, you know, allunits are busy.
And and and so imagineregularly, every night in the
summertime, every cop in thecity is on a call.
(15:47):
Yeah.
Every cop.
And that's regular.
That happens from about fouro'clock in the evening till well
past midnight that they go callto call.
I can't ever remember a time inthe history of Kansas City where
every single fire rig was on acall at the same time.
SPEAKER_03 (16:02):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (16:03):
And so, you know, they get better.
Oh, uh, they live together, theywork together, they eat
together, they I think they takecare of each other better than
cops do.
SPEAKER_02 (16:16):
Do you think that's Steve?
Yeah.
We well, I know I know for afact we talk about stuff because
being being like when we're acall, we load it back on the
rig, and we go back to the firestation, we're together until
our shift is over.
Yeah.
Unlike the police officers thatget back in their car back when
they were running ridingsingles, and you're just by
yourself till the end of yourshift, or you know.
(16:36):
Yeah.
unknown (16:37):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (16:37):
And we talk about stuff.
Um it's just different.
SPEAKER_01 (16:41):
And society treats firefighters better.
Um, I don't I can't rememberanybody ever protesting
firefighters.
SPEAKER_03 (16:48):
Not a lot of hate at firefighters typically.
SPEAKER_01 (16:50):
No, and which fuels the jealousy between us, you
know.
Um, they always tell me I juststood in the wrong line.
Little truth to that.
Um, but uh overall, I think thethe fire service is a much
healthier line.
And you can do 32.
I know firemen they've done over40 years.
You can't do 40 years as a cop.
SPEAKER_03 (17:12):
Then, Steve, why are more firefighters not healthier?
Because I go to firefighter peersupport meetings, and there's a
lot of unhealthiness.
Why is far as alcoholism anddivorce and and just not
handling the stress as well asthey might want to?
(17:35):
Why why are firefighters nothealthy?
You've got some advantages inthe fire service.
Why isn't it?
SPEAKER_02 (17:40):
I think and it's getting better, but it's it's
always been such a macho, notjust fire department, police and
all all of us, it's such a machothing.
Guys don't want to talk aboutstuff.
Yeah.
And instead of talking withsomebody about it or doing
something to get rid of thosebad thoughts, they drink, they
(18:01):
fight, they just don't take careof themselves.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:06):
And honestly, I think that law enforcement was
early to recognize the PTSDissues, and early to recognize
the mental health challenges,and early to recognize uh the
suicide rate.
I think that we, and I I can'tsay we, me, but I think that our
culture addressed that maybe 10years ago, maybe even longer
(18:29):
that we talked about it, whereit's just now coming to the
forefront of firefighters whoare acknowledging that there is
a lot of PTSD, you know,secondary and tertiary tertiary
PTSD.
Um, and I I think that helps usa lot.
I think that's why, you know, wewere the first ones to really
like push physical fitness.
And they all have gyms in theirfirehouses, but not everybody
uses them.
SPEAKER_03 (18:50):
Firefighter culture maybe has a healthier culture
because they're together andthere's kind of a natural
debriefing system because theyall can sit down and eat a meal
together.
But police are downstream of allof the military research for
post-traumatic stress and thatkind of stuff.
And so I feel like that's whatyou're saying about some of that
(19:11):
research coming in and saying,hey, we need to address this.
We've done studies.
A lot of that is because police,I think, are more directly
downstream from the military.
That's my personal You areabsolutely right.
SPEAKER_01 (19:22):
And I didn't put that together, but you're right.
Everything from the militarythat they're learning trickles
down to us first.
Yeah.
So uh, and I hadn't put two andtwo together, but you are 100%
right.
SPEAKER_02 (19:31):
And I can tell you, I can tell you another call that
I ran.
This would have been my gosh.
Getting old, can't remember halfthe calls I ran around.
So many just they were goodcalls, but then they were bad
calls.
Yeah.
Uh I ran a call one time.
I was once again, I was tradingtime working for another guy,
and I was running out of 54thLimworth Road, and we got a call
(19:53):
for a kid hit by a school bus.
So we get down there to thescene, and the school bus is
sitting there at a stop signheading north, and was rolled
back a little bit from the stopsign.
And I'm acting captain againthat day.
Had a me and a driver and a backend guy with us with an
(20:14):
ambulance.
And we pulled up, and as wepulled up by the school bus, I'm
kind of looking, hey, where'sthe kid?
And then I just looked down offthe corner in the grass by the
school bus, and there's the kidon the ground.
I'm like, oh you know, a few badwords, so we get out, jumped out
(20:34):
real quick and ran up there, andit was obvious she was deceased.
She looked like a somebody hadtaken a a kid-sized rag doll and
spun it and slapped it on theground.
I mean, just twisted and I meanit w it obvious she was not with
(20:54):
us anymore.
Windy day.
Um I'm trying to figure what I'mgonna cover this kid up with
because we didn't really carrywe had carts and stuff, but I
was trying to get somethingquick.
So we went back and grabbed uhsheet off the cot off the
ambulance and brought it up andhad some rocks right there to
(21:15):
cover up with because we got aschool bus full of kids full of
kids, and the kids are allwanting to see what's going on,
of course.
And yeah, and so then I had tosend I sent one of guy, another
guy on the bus to move all thekids to the back of the bus.
The driver was done with.
I mean, we couldn't even get himout of his seat.
(21:37):
It took us probably 35 minutesafter we got the girl moved and
more resources on the scene toget him out of his seat, get him
out the back of the bus.
Anyway, um so this happens, andum I know I need resources I
don't have.
There's no PD there or nothing.
It's just a fire truck andambush is the only ones there.
(21:59):
So I got on the on the radio andcall for I need a PIO, I need
command staff out here, contactPD, I'm gonna need a
spokesperson, contact the schooldistrict.
And another crazy thing, it'sbut he says Wyatt County, but
just by chance, my cousin is incharge of school buses for the
(22:19):
school district at the time.
You guys are related toeverybody.
So we're working this call.
Oh and then I turn around as weget the girl covered up and here
come her sister and her momrunning over the hill.
So now I gotta deal with thatsituation.
You know, try to calm them downand they wanted up to go up
(22:41):
there and I said you can't go upthere you know that's it's not
good.
That memory is not what you wantto have of her.
Please sit in the back of thehandle.
So they did that for me.
SPEAKER_03 (22:52):
No chaplain on scene?
SPEAKER_02 (22:54):
Not yet.
I called for him.
Okay.
But I mean this this is this isall happening within five
minutes.
Sure.
SPEAKER_03 (22:59):
And so PD church went up uh they had a chaplain
with them um blocking off theroad so when we run the call and
we get back to the fire stationwhat they our deputy shows up
one of our deputies shows up andsays hey you guys are out of
service cool no no big deal youknow and we're sitting there and
then a few a couple of um crisisintervention people from the
(23:23):
city showed up wanting to talkto us so we're talking to them
and they said hey we're sendingyou guys home and I said I'm not
going home she goes well youneed to go home you need to talk
to somebody I said that's whatwe're doing here she goes well
you've just had a bad scene hereyou need to go and debrief and I
go ma'am I said I'm not tryingto be a jerk or nothing but I
(23:44):
said that's what we do here atthe fire station yeah and she
goes well I'm gonna recommendthat all you guys go home right
now I said well I hate to say itbut I'm not leaving I've got a
job to do here it's gonna bebetter for me and and so there
was five of us you're not justbeing obstinate you it actually
was healthier for you yeah tostay and to stay with your crew
(24:07):
yes yeah see that's what policealmost never have that so we had
five people to station therethat day stationed so two of the
younger guys went home they hadkids I get it sure um they want
to go home and see them so butthe other three of us we said we
want to stay and she goes well Idon't think you should stay you
need to go talk to somebody Isaid I said ma'am I said if I
(24:28):
leave here I'll tell you what'sgonna happen I'm gonna go home
and I'm talking to somebody andthen I'm probably gonna go to
the bar and drink because I I'mgonna try to calm my nerves and
debrief.
SPEAKER_02 (24:38):
And she goes well I don't recommend that I said
that's what's gonna happen.
That's why I want to stay hereat the fire station.
We know each other we work witheach other we can talk we can
talk this out and by morningwe'll have this all hammered out
of our minds and be done.
SPEAKER_03 (24:54):
Yeah and you then you'll go home at seven in the
morning yes and and not directlyto a bar or something.
Yes okay so we stayed and tookcare of it I want to thank
Steven Stewart again for beinghere and this is such a good
example of having a story andthen also having some wisdom to
(25:19):
share these twin brothers haveabout 65 years of combined
experience as a cop and afirefighter and as far as I know
neither one of them are workingon a screenplay or preparing to
write a book although they couldbut they were eager to come tell
(25:39):
their stories some of theirpainful stories so that other
first responders could hear andconnect and maybe be healthier
look I'm at a stage where myemail inbox is full of people
trying to sell something on theHey Chaplin podcast.
I am not interested in 99% ofthose.
(26:02):
What I would like to hear isyour referral that you know
especially a police officer butyou know somebody in the first
responder world who has a greatstory and has a bit of wisdom to
share about it, let me know whothey are and we'll see what we
can make happen.
SPEAKER_00 (26:21):
Next time on Hey Chaplin What do they mean by a
21 foot rule when this getsbrought up as if it's common
knowledge most people who usethat phrase are laboring under
the false belief that if aperson with a knife or uh or an
object that can be used to toinflict serious bodily injury or
(26:43):
death is at or inside 21 feet,that you can automatically shoot
them, uh that they'reautomatically a deadly threat.
And so that if you can envisiona a radius or a distance around
you that's uh this bright linestandard of 21 feet, once the uh
your would-be opponent gets tothat 21-foot space and then
(27:03):
takes a step over the thatimaginary 21 foot line he's
bought and paid for okay outside21 feet he's safe inside he's a
goner all right 22 it's a no noright 20 feet it's it's weapons
free.
You're like no that is notcorrect first off okay so how
how did this come up in thattrial?
SPEAKER_03 (27:25):
Surprisingly it was the prosecution that brought it
up the views expressed here arethe personal views of the host
and our guests and do notnecessarily represent the views
of any law enforcement agency orits components.
(27:45):
If you like this episode pleaseshare it with a cop or someone
who loves a cop.
Thank you for listening to HeyChaplin and as always let's pray
for peace in our cities
My name is Chaplin Deborah Fontez.
(00:01):
I'm the senior chaplain inSacramento, California.
And thank you for listening toHey Chaplin Podcast.
SPEAKER_03 (00:10):
Welcome to Hey Chaplin.
My name is Jared Altic, and I'ma chaplain with the police
department.
The Hey Chaplin Podcast is abouttalking to police officers who
say, Hey Chaplin, I've got astory to tell and some
hard-earned wisdom to share.
From the LAPD to Scotland Yard,the guests on Hey Chaplin are
(00:30):
sharing their wisdom andexperience with you so that you
don't have to learn everythingthe hard way.
When a police officer listens toHey Chaplin for the first time,
I'd like them to be able to findthe information about the show
and see a lot of positiveencouragement that this is
worthwhile.
So if you would go to ApplePodcasts or Spotify or any place
(00:52):
you might listen to the show andleave a five-star rating and a
written review, that would helpa ton.
If you're on social media likeFacebook or Instagram, if you
would please like the show,follow the show, that would help
out a lot.
A recommendation from you wouldmean the world.
(01:12):
Today we're coming back to ourinterview with identical twin
first responders Stuart andSteve Littlefield.
Stuart is the 30-year cop on theSWAT team and also a homicide
detective.
Steve is a 30-year firefighter.
Both worked at the same time inthe same city, my home of Kansas
(01:33):
City, Kansas.
Today we're going to talk abouta couple of the dramatic,
critical incidents that theywere involved in and also answer
the question of which service ishealthier and which one is
worse.
Here are brothers Stuart andSteve Littlefield.
(01:53):
Tell me about a time that youguys found yourselves on the
same scene as a firefighter andas a cop.
Tell me about being on the samescene.
SPEAKER_01 (02:01):
So the biggest call we were ever on, and we we had a
few calls together, but nothingmonumental, nothing as
monumental as this.
So this would have been in thelate 90s, early 2000s.
There was a domestic call up offQuindero Boulevard.
And Quindero Boulevard is thenortheast corner of Kansas City,
kind of a high crime area, andright around the corner from
(02:22):
where Stephen Station was.
So this was around Alice inQuindero, which is near 7th
Street.
Steve's station was off of like9th or 10th.
SPEAKER_03 (02:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (02:32):
Small neighborhood in the northeast part of Kansas
City called Quindero Homes.
Very small, uh tight community,very small houses.
And this was a specificcul-de-sac where a husband and
wife lived in one house, and onthe other side of the
cul-de-sac, the wife's fatherlived.
unknown (02:50):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (02:51):
And so there was some pre-planning here, which
I'll get into in a minutebecause it makes this story a
lot deeper.
But apparently, the husband andwife got involved in a domestic
altercation.
Her father came across thestreet and shot her husband.
SPEAKER_03 (03:07):
And killed him?
SPEAKER_01 (03:08):
And killed him.
And then retreated back into hishouse.
And uh officers arrived.
And I I don't know if it cameout as a as a shooting, but when
they knocked on the door, theguy opened fire.
And from what I saw, he shotabove the police officer.
I think he could have killedhim.
I don't think he wanted to killa copy.
SPEAKER_03 (03:28):
Yep.
The shooting at the police.
At the police.
Is fire on scene yet?
SPEAKER_02 (03:33):
No.
We so this has all happened.
We fire probably came in tenminutes later, maybe.
SPEAKER_03 (03:40):
Okay.
And you are doing what job andwhere are you at?
SPEAKER_01 (03:44):
So I was on the SWAT team.
Okay.
I'm at home doing Sunday stuff.
My pager goes off.
And I remember it was it was inthe wintertime, but it was in
the 50s out, really nice out.
And so we respond to the sceneand we surround the house.
It started out at, like I said,50 degrees.
By late afternoon, it was downto 19 degrees.
(04:05):
Uh-huh.
And we were cold and it wasmiserable.
So this guy is in the house.
At one point, they thought hemight have killed himself.
Right.
We're not really sure.
Uh they sent a dog in.
The dog didn't alert, dog cameback out.
So they had us make entry.
And you know, these houses areonly 10, 15 feet apart, maybe
even closer.
SPEAKER_03 (04:24):
Yeah.
Little tiny houses all closetogether.
SPEAKER_01 (04:27):
Yes, it's like two-bedroom little house.
And so uh we we formed an entryteam and we came into the house,
and uh one team took the livingroom, and my partner and I took
the kitchen, and then there wasa hallway went into the back,
and I heard somebody saysomething.
And we don't talk in an entry,uh, slow and deliberate.
(04:48):
We don't, there's no talking atall.
And so I was a little bitirritated that somebody was
talking, and then I heard ourteam leader at the hallway say,
What did you say?
And a voice from the back fromthe back said, If you come back
here, I'm gonna kill you.
So eight comps went in, eightcomps came out.
And we gave I it's not reallymaybe a good idea to get that
(05:09):
ground, but there's nothingthere that'll stop a bullet.
Um, and so we backed out andthen we had a full-blown
standoff, okay, which lastedlate into the afternoon.
SPEAKER_02 (05:18):
When did fire show up?
I was working for somebody thatday.
The captain that was on the rigthat day needed off by noon, so
I didn't show up until noon.
So he was only down there forabout two hours.
Right.
Fire got there probably it wasprobably 20, 30 minutes after
the call came out for ashooting.
Okay, and uh are you on standbyfor medical?
SPEAKER_03 (05:38):
Okay, right.
SPEAKER_02 (05:39):
Yes, and we're probably two blocks down the
road.
Okay, but we get we had a lineof sight, we could see what's
happening.
SPEAKER_03 (05:43):
That sounds like the place where a cop would make a
sarcastic joke about you guysstaging two blocks away.
But I won't say it, but that'sway easier.
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (05:52):
So so at noon, I come in to relieve the captain I
was working for, and he took mytruck back to the fire station,
and then I didn't think it wasgonna be that big of a deal.
And it, like I said, it was longand drawn out, and all we did is
sit in the fire truck for 10hours.
SPEAKER_03 (06:07):
How aware are you if you see some indication or hear
radio traffic that indicatesthat the SWAT team is on scene?
How aware are you that yourbrothers up there, maybe in that
house or near that house, orabout to go in that house?
SPEAKER_02 (06:22):
Very aware then, because he hadn't been on that
long then.
Um probably four or five years,maybe, if that?
Probably five.
So I knew the score I knew theywere on scene, but I didn't know
where they were at or what theywere doing.
We we we were communicated,there was a a uh command staff
officer coming back and givingus updates what's going on every
(06:42):
now and then, every half anhour.
But we're you know, we're 100yards down the road.
Okay.
You kind of see what's going on.
SPEAKER_03 (06:48):
But how aware are you?
Are you hearing things likeradio traffic mentioning pumper
five or anything like that?
SPEAKER_01 (06:55):
I never had a clue.
Our radios are we have a commonchance.
SPEAKER_03 (06:59):
You're just listening to your never occurred
to me.
SPEAKER_01 (07:01):
Um, and uh, you know, we were pretty busy.
Yeah, um, and there was uh sonow we've got a guy in the
house, armed, he's alreadykilled one person, shot at the
police.
Uh, and he's not going anywhere.
We have a barricade, time's onour side.
We did not have a robot at thetime, but bomb robots were just
coming onto the scene.
Uh-huh.
So our chief, and I God lovehim, he called up Kansas City,
(07:22):
Missouri and wanted their robot.
Robots are worth a lot of money.
SPEAKER_00 (07:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (07:26):
So they made an agreement that we'll give you
the robot.
You can use it after the scene'sdone to do surveillance.
So they brought the robot andthe chief sent it straight to
the house.
SPEAKER_03 (07:36):
This is not a bulletproof robot.
No.
This is a very expensive robotthat belonged to Kansas City,
Missouri.
SPEAKER_01 (07:42):
Yeah, but you know, in his opinion, we'll buy a new
robot.
I don't want to lose a cop.
Yeah.
So um, we didn't get much out ofthe robot.
Long story short, this is thisis drawing out hours, and we're
getting colder by the minute.
We started evacuating uh housesaround there uh as a safety
precaution.
SPEAKER_03 (07:59):
And this is going into the evening, correct.
SPEAKER_01 (08:01):
And one lady, God bless her, she said, I left a
pot of coffee on for you guys,and there's cookies on my table.
And we drank coffee and it cameout.
Oh, really?
SPEAKER_03 (08:09):
Yes, really?
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (08:11):
So uh they finally get to the point, we introduce
gas to the house.
I think he had a gas mask.
We looked at it later.
I don't recall.
SPEAKER_02 (08:19):
He did, he had a gas mask.
He was he was a Vietnam vet.
SPEAKER_01 (08:22):
Okay, okay, and so um gas didn't work.
So the next step is to introducesmoke.
And if you understand how smokeworks, so that you would throw
the canister in, and as thecanister burns and the smoke
begins to fill the house, itpushes the oxygen out.
Uh and so you have a choice, youcan come out or you can stay in
(08:43):
and suffocate.
So we introduced smoke into thehouse from the back to the
front.
Uh it was my partner and I.
Uh, he is throwing the canisterthrough the window, and I'm
providing lethal cover.
Yeah.
And so we kind of made aclockwise move around the house.
And uh when we got to the veryfront window, we, you know,
(09:04):
anytime you threw smoke in, thecandles would begin to burn,
you'd see the curtains catchfire and glow.
And then pretty soon the smokewould push out the oxygen and
the fire would die.
So we got all the way backaround to the front of the
house, and he put a canisterthrough the window, and the
curtains began to burn like theyalways did.
And then I don't know what wasthere, but something exploded.
(09:26):
Boom! And the front door slammedshut and then slammed back open.
And that fed oxygen into thehouse, and that house went up
like a Roman candle.
If only we had a firefighterhere to explain that to us,
Steve.
SPEAKER_02 (09:41):
So we're sitting down the block, and of course,
the commander that had beentalking to us, letting us know
what's going on.
Hey, we're getting ready to dothis.
You know, we know there'sprobably gonna be a fire pretty
quick.
You guys be ready to come in.
So we saw it, this happened, andthe fire started growing, and it
blew the front window out.
And what time?
So it's dark.
It's getting dark, yeah.
(10:01):
Okay, all right.
And uh the fire's rolling, it'sit's building.
And uh he comes up, he goes,What do you think?
And I'm like, I said, but I'lltell you what, I said, uh, he'd
have to be Superman to still bealive inside there.
There's no way that that guy'sstill alive inside the house.
He goes, Are you sure?
I said, 99%.
He says we need to know for surebecause you're not going in
(10:23):
unless you know for you thinkfor sure he's dead.
Okay.
Stuart.
SPEAKER_01 (10:26):
Well, and and I heard on the radio, once again,
God bless our chief.
He's talking to our sergeant onthe SWAT channel, and he says,
Is it survivable?
Our sergeant said, It's hard totell right now.
And the chief said, Let me knowwhen it's not survivable,
because he was not gonna send afireman in there to get killed
by a man with a gun.
(10:47):
Yeah.
Now, me, I was so cold, it wascold out that um I had been
around the corner, kind ofbehind a tree.
Great big oak tree, pretty goodcover.
I stepped around that tree toget close to the house to warm
up because I I didn't even thinkabout getting shot.
I was freezing.
Yeah.
And so moments later, it thehouse was fully involved, and
(11:09):
then they rolled up.
SPEAKER_02 (11:10):
And then and then also, too, so we're there for a
standby for a shooting.
Yeah.
For like a medical call.
For hours.
For hours.
Well, so when the house catchesfire, I called it in.
Hey, we have a working structurefire.
And being that it's closeproximity to other houses, we
have what they call a generalalarm, which is an upgrade to a
regular house fire.
(11:30):
Okay.
So we got at that time, we gotthree more pumpers and an aerial
truck to come in.
Okay.
To, you know, just so we haveresources, whatever we need.
And the crazy thing is that atthat time, one of our cousins
had just gotten on the firedepartment with me.
You got the whole Littlefieldclan working the house of the
(11:51):
scene.
So our cousin, Mike, Sapeka, isworking on 14 struck, and 14
strucks showed up.
So then when we made entry in toput the fire out, he's with me,
and we went in, and that's whenwe found uh the shooter.
Okay.
He was deceased in the hallway,and he had a his he had turned a
uh his linen closet into like uhan ammo depot.
(12:13):
Oh wow.
I mean, it was he had tons oftons of rounds of ammunition in
there, and so he is layingdeceased on the floor.
SPEAKER_03 (12:20):
Ammunition that has already caused the fire to
increase.
No, no, no, no.
Okay, okay.
But but that but that's adanger.
You're in a fully involvedstructure fire with ammunition
in one of the rooms.
SPEAKER_02 (12:30):
Well, yes and no.
Okay.
I mean, it's it's not gonna doanything but pop because it's
not contained.
Okay.
And it's not like a bomb, butbut he had black powder and
stuff there, too, though.
So yeah, there was a there was adanger in it.
Very cavalier about flammablethings.
It's just the fire experience.
So when they so once we get inthere and find him, he's laying
(12:51):
on his back on the floor, and hehad a he had knocked, he had a
had had a gas mask on, but itwas off.
But he had an M1 Garan rifle onhis chest like he was getting
ready to kill himself.
Really?
And it was up under his jaw, andthen his little dog was laying
next to him.
SPEAKER_03 (13:07):
Wow, wow, and he succumbed before he took life.
SPEAKER_02 (13:11):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (13:11):
Okay.
Smoke got him.
SPEAKER_01 (13:13):
The funniest part was these guys didn't know what
we had done.
And so all these the fire's out,it's still smoldering, and they
all took their masks off and gota big wave of all that tear gas
we put in, and they were cussingus.
SPEAKER_03 (13:26):
We come, I mean, like a rocket right outside.
Smoke is no big deal to youguys.
That's a that's an element youdon't normally have.
SPEAKER_01 (13:36):
But it gets better because I told you this story
got deeper.
Yeah.
So he had an outbuilding, like alittle detached shed for his
lawnmower.
There was a dead prostitute inthere.
So he had planned this.
His plan was welcome to KansasCity.
Yes.
It's a normal just another dayfor us.
SPEAKER_03 (13:53):
Normal, normal Sunday afternoon.
SPEAKER_01 (13:54):
His plan was he was going to kill his son-in-law.
He was going to bring theprostitute over to their house,
burn it down.
He was going to identify hisdaughter, the body and the son.
And then apparently he and hisdaughter planned on escaping
somewhere with maybe someinsurance money.
Okay.
I don't know what happened, whatwent south on that, but she
(14:17):
obviously changed plans at thelast minute.
So it was kind of a really weirdtwist when we're looking at
back.
And after we introduced gas, weopened up that back, that back
shed, and there's a body ofanother woman there.
Wow.
So ended up being a crazy, crazycall out.
But at the end, since the threeof us were, I'm decked out in my
tack gear and they're in theirfirefighter gear.
(14:38):
So we took a really cool pictureat in that house.
And uh, it's one of the thingsthat I treasure most.
SPEAKER_02 (14:43):
And the crazy thing with that story, you know,
nowadays there's newseverywhere.
Of course, everybody has acamera.
Back then, in the mid to late90s, I'm not even sure it made
the news.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But if people would have knownthat, I mean that it was it was
a crazy call.
Yeah.
So when did you retire?
I left in uh October of 22.
SPEAKER_03 (15:03):
Okay.
So you both worked from the 90sup through the 2000s and the
201s.
Which service was healthier forthe average firefighter, the
average police officer?
What who who had a healthierenvironment, like emotionally,
psychologically, to work in?
SPEAKER_01 (15:24):
I think nationwide, I think firefighters do.
Um, I the why do you say that?
Well, the pace is slower.
You know, they the we get teaseda lot.
I still do today, you know, uh,firemen, hey, can we get help on
this call?
And they'll say, you know, allunits are busy.
And and and so imagineregularly, every night in the
summertime, every cop in thecity is on a call.
(15:47):
Yeah.
Every cop.
And that's regular.
That happens from about fouro'clock in the evening till well
past midnight that they go callto call.
I can't ever remember a time inthe history of Kansas City where
every single fire rig was on acall at the same time.
SPEAKER_03 (16:02):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (16:03):
And so, you know, they get better.
Oh, uh, they live together, theywork together, they eat
together, they I think they takecare of each other better than
cops do.
SPEAKER_02 (16:16):
Do you think that's Steve?
Yeah.
We well, I know I know for afact we talk about stuff because
being being like when we're acall, we load it back on the
rig, and we go back to the firestation, we're together until
our shift is over.
Yeah.
Unlike the police officers thatget back in their car back when
they were running ridingsingles, and you're just by
yourself till the end of yourshift, or you know.
(16:36):
Yeah.
unknown (16:37):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (16:37):
And we talk about stuff.
Um it's just different.
SPEAKER_01 (16:41):
And society treats firefighters better.
Um, I don't I can't rememberanybody ever protesting
firefighters.
SPEAKER_03 (16:48):
Not a lot of hate at firefighters typically.
SPEAKER_01 (16:50):
No, and which fuels the jealousy between us, you
know.
Um, they always tell me I juststood in the wrong line.
Little truth to that.
Um, but uh overall, I think thethe fire service is a much
healthier line.
And you can do 32.
I know firemen they've done over40 years.
You can't do 40 years as a cop.
SPEAKER_03 (17:12):
Then, Steve, why are more firefighters not healthier?
Because I go to firefighter peersupport meetings, and there's a
lot of unhealthiness.
Why is far as alcoholism anddivorce and and just not
handling the stress as well asthey might want to?
(17:35):
Why why are firefighters nothealthy?
You've got some advantages inthe fire service.
Why isn't it?
SPEAKER_02 (17:40):
I think and it's getting better, but it's it's
always been such a macho, notjust fire department, police and
all all of us, it's such a machothing.
Guys don't want to talk aboutstuff.
Yeah.
And instead of talking withsomebody about it or doing
something to get rid of thosebad thoughts, they drink, they
(18:01):
fight, they just don't take careof themselves.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:06):
And honestly, I think that law enforcement was
early to recognize the PTSDissues, and early to recognize
the mental health challenges,and early to recognize uh the
suicide rate.
I think that we, and I I can'tsay we, me, but I think that our
culture addressed that maybe 10years ago, maybe even longer
(18:29):
that we talked about it, whereit's just now coming to the
forefront of firefighters whoare acknowledging that there is
a lot of PTSD, you know,secondary and tertiary tertiary
PTSD.
Um, and I I think that helps usa lot.
I think that's why, you know, wewere the first ones to really
like push physical fitness.
And they all have gyms in theirfirehouses, but not everybody
uses them.
SPEAKER_03 (18:50):
Firefighter culture maybe has a healthier culture
because they're together andthere's kind of a natural
debriefing system because theyall can sit down and eat a meal
together.
But police are downstream of allof the military research for
post-traumatic stress and thatkind of stuff.
And so I feel like that's whatyou're saying about some of that
(19:11):
research coming in and saying,hey, we need to address this.
We've done studies.
A lot of that is because police,I think, are more directly
downstream from the military.
That's my personal You areabsolutely right.
SPEAKER_01 (19:22):
And I didn't put that together, but you're right.
Everything from the militarythat they're learning trickles
down to us first.
Yeah.
So uh, and I hadn't put two andtwo together, but you are 100%
right.
SPEAKER_02 (19:31):
And I can tell you, I can tell you another call that
I ran.
This would have been my gosh.
Getting old, can't remember halfthe calls I ran around.
So many just they were goodcalls, but then they were bad
calls.
Yeah.
Uh I ran a call one time.
I was once again, I was tradingtime working for another guy,
and I was running out of 54thLimworth Road, and we got a call
(19:53):
for a kid hit by a school bus.
So we get down there to thescene, and the school bus is
sitting there at a stop signheading north, and was rolled
back a little bit from the stopsign.
And I'm acting captain againthat day.
Had a me and a driver and a backend guy with us with an
(20:14):
ambulance.
And we pulled up, and as wepulled up by the school bus, I'm
kind of looking, hey, where'sthe kid?
And then I just looked down offthe corner in the grass by the
school bus, and there's the kidon the ground.
I'm like, oh you know, a few badwords, so we get out, jumped out
(20:34):
real quick and ran up there, andit was obvious she was deceased.
She looked like a somebody hadtaken a a kid-sized rag doll and
spun it and slapped it on theground.
I mean, just twisted and I meanit w it obvious she was not with
(20:54):
us anymore.
Windy day.
Um I'm trying to figure what I'mgonna cover this kid up with
because we didn't really carrywe had carts and stuff, but I
was trying to get somethingquick.
So we went back and grabbed uhsheet off the cot off the
ambulance and brought it up andhad some rocks right there to
(21:15):
cover up with because we got aschool bus full of kids full of
kids, and the kids are allwanting to see what's going on,
of course.
And yeah, and so then I had tosend I sent one of guy, another
guy on the bus to move all thekids to the back of the bus.
The driver was done with.
I mean, we couldn't even get himout of his seat.
(21:37):
It took us probably 35 minutesafter we got the girl moved and
more resources on the scene toget him out of his seat, get him
out the back of the bus.
Anyway, um so this happens, andum I know I need resources I
don't have.
There's no PD there or nothing.
It's just a fire truck andambush is the only ones there.
(21:59):
So I got on the on the radio andcall for I need a PIO, I need
command staff out here, contactPD, I'm gonna need a
spokesperson, contact the schooldistrict.
And another crazy thing, it'sbut he says Wyatt County, but
just by chance, my cousin is incharge of school buses for the
(22:19):
school district at the time.
You guys are related toeverybody.
So we're working this call.
Oh and then I turn around as weget the girl covered up and here
come her sister and her momrunning over the hill.
So now I gotta deal with thatsituation.
You know, try to calm them downand they wanted up to go up
(22:41):
there and I said you can't go upthere you know that's it's not
good.
That memory is not what you wantto have of her.
Please sit in the back of thehandle.
So they did that for me.
SPEAKER_03 (22:52):
No chaplain on scene?
SPEAKER_02 (22:54):
Not yet.
I called for him.
Okay.
But I mean this this is this isall happening within five
minutes.
Sure.
SPEAKER_03 (22:59):
And so PD church went up uh they had a chaplain
with them um blocking off theroad so when we run the call and
we get back to the fire stationwhat they our deputy shows up
one of our deputies shows up andsays hey you guys are out of
service cool no no big deal youknow and we're sitting there and
then a few a couple of um crisisintervention people from the
(23:23):
city showed up wanting to talkto us so we're talking to them
and they said hey we're sendingyou guys home and I said I'm not
going home she goes well youneed to go home you need to talk
to somebody I said that's whatwe're doing here she goes well
you've just had a bad scene hereyou need to go and debrief and I
go ma'am I said I'm not tryingto be a jerk or nothing but I
(23:44):
said that's what we do here atthe fire station yeah and she
goes well I'm gonna recommendthat all you guys go home right
now I said well I hate to say itbut I'm not leaving I've got a
job to do here it's gonna bebetter for me and and so there
was five of us you're not justbeing obstinate you it actually
was healthier for you yeah tostay and to stay with your crew
(24:07):
yes yeah see that's what policealmost never have that so we had
five people to station therethat day stationed so two of the
younger guys went home they hadkids I get it sure um they want
to go home and see them so butthe other three of us we said we
want to stay and she goes well Idon't think you should stay you
need to go talk to somebody Isaid I said ma'am I said if I
(24:28):
leave here I'll tell you what'sgonna happen I'm gonna go home
and I'm talking to somebody andthen I'm probably gonna go to
the bar and drink because I I'mgonna try to calm my nerves and
debrief.
SPEAKER_02 (24:38):
And she goes well I don't recommend that I said
that's what's gonna happen.
That's why I want to stay hereat the fire station.
We know each other we work witheach other we can talk we can
talk this out and by morningwe'll have this all hammered out
of our minds and be done.
SPEAKER_03 (24:54):
Yeah and you then you'll go home at seven in the
morning yes and and not directlyto a bar or something.
Yes okay so we stayed and tookcare of it I want to thank
Steven Stewart again for beinghere and this is such a good
example of having a story andthen also having some wisdom to
(25:19):
share these twin brothers haveabout 65 years of combined
experience as a cop and afirefighter and as far as I know
neither one of them are workingon a screenplay or preparing to
write a book although they couldbut they were eager to come tell
(25:39):
their stories some of theirpainful stories so that other
first responders could hear andconnect and maybe be healthier
look I'm at a stage where myemail inbox is full of people
trying to sell something on theHey Chaplin podcast.
I am not interested in 99% ofthose.
(26:02):
What I would like to hear isyour referral that you know
especially a police officer butyou know somebody in the first
responder world who has a greatstory and has a bit of wisdom to
share about it, let me know whothey are and we'll see what we
can make happen.
SPEAKER_00 (26:21):
Next time on Hey Chaplin What do they mean by a
21 foot rule when this getsbrought up as if it's common
knowledge most people who usethat phrase are laboring under
the false belief that if aperson with a knife or uh or an
object that can be used to toinflict serious bodily injury or
(26:43):
death is at or inside 21 feet,that you can automatically shoot
them, uh that they'reautomatically a deadly threat.
And so that if you can envisiona a radius or a distance around
you that's uh this bright linestandard of 21 feet, once the uh
your would-be opponent gets tothat 21-foot space and then
(27:03):
takes a step over the thatimaginary 21 foot line he's
bought and paid for okay outside21 feet he's safe inside he's a
goner all right 22 it's a no noright 20 feet it's it's weapons
free.
You're like no that is notcorrect first off okay so how
how did this come up in thattrial?
SPEAKER_03 (27:25):
Surprisingly it was the prosecution that brought it
up the views expressed here arethe personal views of the host
and our guests and do notnecessarily represent the views
of any law enforcement agency orits components.
(27:45):
If you like this episode pleaseshare it with a cop or someone
who loves a cop.
Thank you for listening to HeyChaplin and as always let's pray
for peace in our cities
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