June 3, 2025 • 58 mins
When 11-year-old Zlata Filipović received a blank diary in September 1991, she couldn't have known it would become a powerful testament to one of Europe's most devastating modern conflicts. As Yugoslavia fractured along ethnic lines, this ordinary middle-class girl found herself chronicling extraordinary circumstances from her home in Sarajevo, Bosnia.
The diary begins innocently with entries about birthday parties, Michael Jackson songs, and piano lessons. But within months, Zlata's world transforms as barricades appear, bread becomes scarce, and artillery positions surround her once-peaceful city. When the siege begins in April 1992, Sarajevo's 380,000 residents find themselves trapped in a deadly urban prison where stepping outside for water means risking sniper fire.
Through Zlata's eyes, we witness how children adapt to war's brutal reality. Schools operate sporadically in basement shelters, families chop up furniture for winter heating, and humanitarian aid packages become treasured lifelines. All while shells nicknamed "Cico" and "Ceca" fall nearby. Her words capture both heart-wrenching loss—like the death of her friend Nina from shrapnel—and the stubborn resilience of Sarajevans who organized beauty pageants in bunkers and used dark humor to survive.
What makes this story particularly tragic is how yesterday's neighbors became today's enemies. Bosnia's multi-ethnic population—Orthodox Serbs, Catholic Croats, and Muslim Bosniaks—had lived together peacefully for generations before nationalist politics tore them apart. As Zlata writes, "The politicians ruined what had been a model place for all different people to live together."
By 1993, international journalists discovered Zlata's diary, leading to her family's evacuation to Paris just before Christmas. Her published writings became an instant bestseller, bringing worldwide attention to the children suffering in the longest siege of a capital city in modern warfare history.
Have you ever wondered how quickly "normal" can vanish? How resilient children can be in impossible circumstances? Listen as we explore Zlata's story and the complex Yugoslav Wars that redefined Southeastern Europe forever. Follow us on social media @HistoryBuffoonsPodcast and share your thoughts on history's forgotten voices.
Citations
Zlata's Diary: A Child's Life in Sarajevo - Amazon.com
https://amzn.to/3HbRXhQ
en.wikipedia.org Zlata's Diary - Wikipedia
SARAJEVO'S CHILD - The Washington Post
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
oh, hey there, oh hey there oh come on, I just
started.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Oh man, that was like I think your painting got a
little excited there, oh my goshor just startled Something.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Well, it startled me, jeez Louise.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Oh dear.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Am I really that animated?
Sometimes, History just excitesme.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
It's a passion.
He's looking at you funny.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
I know.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
What's going on?
Speaker 1 (00:51):
I think we're going to put it next to you next time.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
That's fine.
I'd say, throw it over here,but I know something will get
knocked over if that's the case.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Yeah, we have precious beer.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Well, luckily those aren't open yet.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
But anyways, we are the History, buffoons, the
history.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Yes, we're the history, buffoons, I'm bradley,
I'm kate, and uh, welcome toanother episode yeah, and this
is our um unfinished painting ohso I didn't realize that I
forgot the blue around themicrophone, around the
microphone.
So now now it's bothering herand me more or less, but yes,
(01:25):
now I gotta fix it.
The funny thing is it didn'tbother me until kate noticed it
and brought it up to me andshe's like I forgot the blue.
I'm like, oh shit, you did.
Now that's all I can see islike the non-blue the non-blue
so we might have a littleupdated version of that in the
near future oh, my burp is soclose I know I can't wait for it
to come out so I can add it tothe burp track oh, it's so close
(01:47):
, it's just sitting there, it'sjust all.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Of course, that could be my acid reflux.
I mean, that's very possibletoo.
I used to get like heartpalpitations that would like
shock me.
Yeah, um, I think it was likestress induced or anxiety
induced.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
I've got that before, yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
And the doctors are like you're not having heart
palpitations, it's acid reflux.
I'm like okay, and so I've beenon.
I thought I moved, so I've beenon acid reducer ever since and
I'm out of it for like the lastthree days.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yeah, you had said we .
I can tell you tried to find itand they only had the name
brand super expensive stuff,which I'm not going to buy.
No, fuck that.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
I'll have Acid Reflex .
It feels like a burp.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
I'm just waiting for it to come out during this
episode.
I know I hope it's epic,because this buildup is leading
towards it and it's probablygoing to be super disappointing.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
I know I shouldn't have said anything.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
So what do we got to drink today, Kate?
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Oh, we have Pig Farmer by.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
By.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Deusterbecks, deusterbecks.
Yes, oh, was that right, notDeusterbecks.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Deusterbecks yes.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Oh, was that right.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Not Deusterbecks, but yes.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Can you tell why I would say Deutschland?
You know, deusterbecks, it'sspelled D-U-E-S.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
D-U-S, d-u-e-s, I said D-U-E-S.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Like Deutschland.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
I took you here once.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Yes, I used to you.
Yes, like Deutschland, I tookyou here once.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Yes, I used to sell this beer.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
The bar looks like this Pretty much.
Yeah, the bar is pretty muchthe barn.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
It's in an old barn.
Yeah, no, they got a coollittle thing going on over there
.
Yeah, I really like it.
I like a lot of their beers.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Yeah, okay.
So where's this?
At Where's this, at where'sthis?
Speaker 2 (03:43):
at elkhorn elkhorn wisconsin and um.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
This is a pale ale yeah, holy balls.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
All of a sudden I yawned, not allowed.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Sorry, I need a beer let's, let's fix that right now.
I am.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
That was elongated.
Cheers, cheers.
It's not bad.
What do you think being notbeing a huge pale ale person?
A little on the lighter side ofa pale ale so I kind of thought
you might not like that, notmind.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
That one is what I meant to say farm fresh beer
what would you feel about wineon a podcast instead of beer
next time?
Speaker 2 (04:28):
I'd be fine with it yeah, you like wine I don't go
out of my way to ever drink it.
Typically, when it comes towine, I'm usually on the sweeter
side of wines like moscato yeah, stuff like that, which is like
the real wine enthusiast, notwine like my dad was, yeah, it
basically like I could glug,glug, glug.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
And Like my dad was, yeah, it basically was Like I
could glug, glug, glug.
And that's why I don't buy it,cause I can glug, glug, glug.
Nobody wants to see that.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
But, um, my dad was huge into wine and oh, okay, I
didn't know that.
Oh yeah, he what the fuck Likea subscription.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Basically, yeah, a wine subscription.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
He would get random boxes with random varieties in
it and whatever from all overfrom Napa Valley, which is huge
in wine, and across the countryand whatever Right he loved
really.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Did you hear it?
Because I heard it.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
I heard it.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
What did it say?
Speaker 2 (05:24):
I don't know, I can't read that far.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Potential computer difficulties.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Well, we'll get it out of the way now.
Hold, please, and we're back.
All right, anyway.
So my dad was really big intowine.
He really liked reds.
He would drink white wines buthe was a big fan of reds and my
problem with reds is 99% of them.
(05:55):
You drink room temperature.
I don't like room temperaturebeverages.
I don't like warm beverages, soI like cold.
There used to be thisrestaurant.
We would go to that.
We've been beverages, so I likecold.
There used to be thisrestaurant we would go to that.
We've been going to since I waslittle.
It's unfortunately closed now.
They used to have really goodgnocchis with meat sauce, but
it's called Albanese's inBrookfield.
They would serve their housered and it would be chilled.
(06:18):
I like that.
That was good.
You can chill a red.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
I do chill my reds.
I can't not.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Yeah, I'm like, like this is super cold right now.
I know it's really good.
Let me reach my beer, um.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
My favorite is pinot grigio.
Okay, um, and I like that.
It's more of a sipper for meversus like the muscat where
it's uh, glug, glug 3000, yeah,yeah, that's understandable okay
, so maybe we'll do that at somepoint yeah, we'll.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
We like to mix it up.
We throw a cocktail in hereonce in a while and yeah
whatever.
So yeah, we'll change it changeit change it um oh, I have a
pen in my shirt.
I was editing earlier and I wasusing it.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
That's funny.
You don't need a pen to edit onthe computer and insert cricket
sounds.
Here I have a question for youdo you really?
I feel like it's been a minuteI know it's because it's because
most of our stuff has kind ofbeen in depth recently a little
(07:38):
bit longer.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Yeah, I would.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
I would certainly say that yeah so, um, this one, I
think we could shoot the shit alittle bit.
Um, did you ever grow upwriting in a diary or journal or
anything like in full?
Like?
This is just for me.
I want to lock on this thing.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
I know, um, I think I've attempted, I would say,
multiple times in multiple timesthroughout my life.
Yeah, the most recent one wasprobably 20 years ago, as a
(08:20):
younger person, maybe a coupletimes.
I couldn't tell you when orwhatever, I'm sure they haven't
survived moves and stuff, but itwas never really a dear journal
.
Right Today I had a thoughtit's like okay, yeah.
Just never.
Never was my thing, so whatabout you?
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Yeah, same I, I uh, probably started quite a few,
and just no, I'm not a writerand it's not even so much.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Not being a writer which I am not by any stretch I
just I don't have thatcommitment, yeah, discipline, to
do that every day.
I know for some people it's agreat thing.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Not for me, yeah, so is what it is.
Yeah, that did not come from me.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
That was so weird.
That came from like, that waslike an elongated one.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
It was just a at the end.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
But it was like a trail of.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
I know, it was really weird.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Beer burp coming up and it took so long to come out,
mine actually went down alittle bit.
Oh man, it was probably acidreflux.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
I'm so looking forward to hearing that one.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
I'll give you one later.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
I'm sure you will.
You're having bubbles, so we'llget one in this podcast, but
anyway, so yeah, so no, I neverreally did that.
That wasn't my thing.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Okay, so we are going to talk about the Yugoslav War.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Do you know of it?
Speaker 2 (09:48):
I mean, I think I might have heard of it.
I couldn't tell you a damnthing about it.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
It happened in the early 90s.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
That's probably why I heard about it, because I was
alive.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Interesting Okay.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
So the country kind of went into one of the biggest
breakups ever.
So Yugoslavia was like this big, united but kind of
dysfunctional family of nations.
Yugoslavia was a federation andit consisted of six republics,
(10:23):
so it was Bosnia and Herzegovina.
Herzegovina yeah, herzegovina.
How'd you know that?
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Because Bosnia and Herzegovina, aren't they like
one single place now?
Yes, it's one, yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Yeah, and then there's Croatia and Macedonia,
Montenegro, Serbia and Slovenia.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
I didn't realize those were all under Yugoslavia.
I guess I never knew that Okay.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Huh.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
In addition, there were two additional provinces
under the Republic of Serbia, oh, so it's kind of like Wisconsin
in the United States.
There's Kosovo and Vovdina.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
I haven't heard of that one.
I've heard of Kosovo, though,uh-huh.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Okay, but they were provinces in Serbia, okay.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Gotcha so.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
I am going to talk a little bit about Bosnia and
Herzegovina.
Yeah, maybe I'm just going tolook at you to see that.
End point Herzegovina.
Because Maybe I'm just going tolook at you to say that, end
point Herzegovina, becausethat's kind of where our story
takes place.
Okay, most of the story.
So since the 15th century bothregions were governed together
under the Ottoman Empire andthen later the Austro-Hungarian
(11:40):
Empires.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
So they've been around for a long time.
Yeah, oh, wow.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
And they shared borders and cultures and
administration for a long timeokay and then as part of the
yugoslav republic.
In 1945, leader joseph brostito lumped bosnia and
herzegovina.
I love it that that's awesomeInto one of the six socialist
(12:07):
republics.
Okay, and it kind of cementedtheir political unity.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
So they basically have a government like the USSR
in a way like socialists.
All that stuff Is that kind ofwhat their grouping was.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Okay and continue.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Okay, herzegovina.
Yeah, sorry if you didn't pointmy bad.
So in the middle of this chaos,there's actually a young girl
named zlata filipovic okay andshe and her family live in
sarajevo, bosnia sarajevo yeah,saraje, Do you want to do this?
Because dang Mr Pronunciationover here.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
I'm not that good.
Okay, sarajevo, sarajevo,sarajevo.
Yes, I mean, that's what you'retalking about, right?
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Yes, okay, so you know of it.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
I've heard of it.
Yeah, about right, yes, okay,so you know of it.
I've heard of it, yeah, becausethe um trans-siberian orchestra
has a song called like oh, whatthe fuck's the title?
Something sarajevo or whatever,something like that.
I'm trying to blank on the fulltitle of this song.
Fuck, now I feel stupid that Ican't remember because I like
trans Siberian, siberianorchestra.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Well, there's a lot of um.
Kept a diary during the Bosnianwar, okay, um, and she was kind
of called the Anne Frank ofSarah.
Have have, oh.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Sarajevo.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Sarajevo.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
She was the Anne Frank of Sarajevo.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Yeah so so she hid in a cat an attic a basement oh, I
mean zlata wrote about siegelife sniper fire, how she lost
friends, all wolf still worryingabout doing homework and isn't
that wild trying to listen topop music and oh yeah what was
(14:04):
her favorite band?
Um.
She enjoyed michael jackson andguns and roses oh, that's.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
That's quite a nice variety.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
I like it so a little bit of historical background on
the breakup of yugoslavia kindof a crash course.
If you will Probably crash intothis, what Probably crash and
burn?
Idiom Jesus.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Christ Idiom.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Yugoslavia was once a united country, okay, and it
fell apart in the early 90s, soin the 1980s.
T joseph bros, tito he um, endsends up dying, and with him so
does the glue that heldeverybody together so what was
(14:56):
so important about him that heheld everything together like
was he the ruler of yeah?
Yeah, he was the leader so what?
Speaker 2 (15:03):
did he have?
A specific position likepresident?
I mean what?
What position did he hold thathe was the leader?
Speaker 1 (15:08):
I don't think that I wrote down specifically what his
title was, but he was like incharge of yugoslavia and all the
republics for like quite awhile yeah, yeah, gotcha um, and
it's all multi-ethnic groups inYugoslavia, sure.
So as soon as he's gone, thekids aka the nationalist
(15:32):
politicians and all that theykind of start acting out, okay.
So over the 1980s there's aneconomic crisis and the
resurgent nationalism spread hey.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
I need to check something.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Okay, there it is.
It has surfaced.
Unleash the Kraken.
Wow that was.
I would say that was epic and Iwould be right, holy shit.
So sorry about that littlebreak.
(16:10):
I had to check something, checka setting, and then we got
graced by a delicious burp fromKate over there.
Okay, anywho, sorry, yes.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
So leaders from Serbia.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Pushed their own agendas well, most do and tito
just kind of suppressed all thatokay, so he was kind of able to
keep them all like tolerable ofeach other right.
So it was kind of like adecades-long family feud.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
That just kind of started family feud kind of
breaking up at the dinner tableyou know, during thanksgiving,
when everybody kind of comesyeah do you think anyone flipped
the plates off like, fuck this,anyways something.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
Okay, I'm gonna take the turkey with me yeah, I want
a turkey leg in 1991, umyugoslavia's republics starting
are starting to wanderseparation.
Okay, in june of 91 sloveniaand croatia declare independence
.
Oh, slovenia's separation is iskind of a brief little battle
(17:13):
okay it's.
It was a 10-day little battleby the yugoslav people's army
okay who had moved into secureborder posts.
Oh, and they mostly fought likelight infantry type of
encounters.
So it wasn't like full-on blownbattles.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
No, no, there was still conflict.
Nonetheless, there was conflict.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
But then there was a ceasefire and the Yugoslav
People's Army, with Jew andSlovenia, maintained their
declaration of independence.
Gotcha, okay.
Croatia's declaration was alittle bit more messy.
War erupted with the YugoslavArmy, which was largely Serb-led
(17:57):
, okay, and local Serb forces.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Serbs against other, well, not even against Serbs, I
think kind of all the Serbs likekind of banded together against
the Croatians, oh gotcha, Ithink that's how it was Okay and
I'll tell you a little bit moreabout that Gotcha.
In 1992, Bosnia's excuse me byApril of 92, Bosnia and
Herzegovina were mostlyethnically mixed republic.
(18:28):
There were Muslim Bosniaks,there were Orthodox Serbs, there
were Catholic Croats.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Croats, so Croatians, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
And so Bosnia and….
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Herzegovina.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
They declared independence as well.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
So Bosnia becomes the main battlefield of the
Yugoslav wars.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Really Mm-hmm Okay.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Bosnian Serb forces, backed by Serbia's national
leadership, oppose theindependence and lay siege to
Sarajevo, sarajevo, sarajevo.
So the Bosniak Muslims and theBosnian Croats.
The forces initially fight theSarabs and at one point, tragic
(19:18):
point, they were actually likefighting each other the, the
muslims and the croats and andthen they're like this is stupid
.
So then they started likestupid.
Yes and they're like let's,let's band together again.
It was all like games of gameof thrones I never knew.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
I never knew croatians were called croats.
I've never heard that before.
Yeah, that's different.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Yeah, okay so the siege of Sarajevo.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
You're getting there Sarajevo.
Yeah, In April 1992, Bosnia'scapital which is Sarajevo, and I
believe, if I'm not mistaken,the Trans-Siberian Orchestra's
song is Christmas Eve, sarajevo.
Oh, very nice yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Well, Sarajevo was home of the 1984,.
Did I not pronounce it right?
Speaker 2 (20:06):
That was close.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
They had the 1984 Winter Olympics there.
Oh, did they?
Yes.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
I wasn't old enough to remember that today.
So, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
So Sarajevo.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Close.
You're getting there.
What is?
Speaker 1 (20:25):
it Sarajevo?
That's what?
Yeah, okay, so sarajevo close,you're getting there.
What is it sarajevo?
That's what it says.
Sarajevo, stop it stop it.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
That bird made me yawn.
How is that possible?
There it is jesus christ um.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
So sarajevo becomes under siege by the Bosnian Serbs
.
Okay, bosnian Serbs are worriedthat they would be vulnerable
as an ethnic minority Right In aBosniak-dominated country.
So many preferred staying in aSerb-led Yugoslavia oh, in a
(21:00):
Serb-led Yugoslavia, oh.
So if you start breaking apartYugoslavia, there's less and
less majority Serbs.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Right, no, that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Okay, so that's why all the Serbs are trying to band
together and they don't wantthis independence Gotcha.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
That makes sense.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
They don't want to be the minority.
Okay, so this siege will lastalmost four years, and it's the
longest siege of a capital cityin modern history.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Four years, holy crap .
That's a long fucking time tosiege a city.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
So between 93 and 94, war rages on throughout Bosnia.
Sarajevo's people endure dailyshellings, fuck, and the
notorious like sniper alleywhere we're stepping out for
bread even could be lethal.
Right um, internationalpeacekeepers from the un showed
(21:57):
up wearing like blue helmets andgood intentions, but with
orders not to shoot, okay.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
So didn't do anything .
What was the point?
Didn't do anything?
No, they really didn't.
I mean what would have been thepoint for?
Speaker 1 (22:14):
them to do that.
They're like here's some foodrations.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Namaste.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Stop shooting.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Yeah, don't be cruel to each other.
We're not going to listen toyou it's like no, we're gonna
keep doing what we've been doing.
I mean I just, I mean I gettheir intentions, they were
peaceful, whatever but what werethey really going to accomplish
by?
Just, yeah, they got him some.
It's coming back.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Here it go.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Here it go 1995.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Yes, the world's patience was finally televised.
Atrocities Atrocities.
Atrocities what word is that?
Atrocities?
There it is.
Atrocities in the cities thereit is, I trust.
(23:23):
Cities and the cities.
In July of 1995,.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Bosnian Serb forces overrun the UN.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Okay.
And there is a massacre of over7,000 Bosniak men and boys, oh
shit, yeah.
And not long after Serb forcesbomb Sarajevo, yep, yep.
And finallyajevo, yep, yep, andfinally NATO, yeah, decides to
drop the paperwork and pick upthe peace and it launches
airstrikes against Bosnian Serbpositions in August of 95.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Damn.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
Combined with Bosnian Crote ground offensives.
Yeah, this pressure kind ofweans the leaders into peace
talks.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
Okay, in December of 95, the parties finally signed
the Dayton Peace Accords.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Dayton Peace Accords Okay.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Bosnia is split into two semi-autonomous entities
bosnia croat federation and aserb republic okay and the war
in bosnia at this time isofficially over.
A hundred thousand people arekilled, god damn 40 percent of
(24:18):
them are civilians.
Wow, that's really sad.
Two million plus people aredisplaced well, sure, that makes
sense between six and eleventhousand people.
Six thousand and eleventhousand people of the dead were
children.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Oh fuck yeah that's really always depressing to hear
, because they obviously didn'thave a choice or anything.
So wow, no.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
So that kind of brings me to this young girl,
yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
What's her name again ?
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Sorry, zalata, zalata , zalata.
Okay, so, like I said, sarajevowas kind of a melting pot of
all these ethnicities, sothere's the Bosniaks and the
Serbs and Croats, and they alllived together somewhat
peacefully, right?
So Zlatova was born on December3rd 1980.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Okay, so she would have been 15 at this time.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
So it actually starts .
Her diary starts when she's 11.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
Oh, so she'd been writing for four years already.
Okay, yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
I wanted to give you a background on the war before
introducing her.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
But yeah, she's there at the start of it, Okay.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Yeah, fair enough.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
So she was a happy girl middle-class childhood.
Her father was a lawyer, hermother was a chemist.
She loved Michael Jackson, gunsN' Roses.
Yep was a lawyer.
Her mother was a chemist.
She loved michael jackson, gunsand roses.
Um, their family took a ton ofvacations up in the mountains
and at this time, in septemberof 91, she was in fifth grade.
Okay, okay.
And at that point she receivedthis little blank diary.
(25:56):
Oh, she was inspired by thediary of anne frank.
She did read that and shedecided to name her diary Mimi.
Mimi Mimi, mimi, m-i-m-m-y, mimi.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
And actually it was after her pet goldfish that had
passed Mimi.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Is it common to name your diary Because you're like
writing to it.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Basically, yeah, yeah , you're almost having a
conversation exactly throughwords.
And she would always say, dearmimi, and she would end with
yours lotta oh, okay, I guess Inever really knew that there is
one yeah, nice, nice, nice soher first like entries were
about piano lessons and birthdayparties and friends at school.
I just closed down my how didthat?
(26:46):
Happen.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
I have no idea.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
She would say things like quote I'm watching the
American Top 20 on MTV.
I don't remember a thing.
Who's in what place?
I feel great because I've justeaten a Four Seasons pizza with
ham, cheese, ketchup andmushrooms.
It was yummy.
Maybe that's why I didn'tremember who took what place.
I was too busy enjoying mypizza.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
End quote Wow Okay.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
In October.
She said quote some reservistsfrom Montenegro have entered
Herzegovina.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Herzegovina yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Why?
For what Politics, it seems,but I don't understand politics.
Right After Slovenia andCroatia, are the winds of war
now blowing toward Bosnia orHerzegovina.
No, that's impossible.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
End quote.
Or Herzegovina.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
That's the one.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Is Herzegovina.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Barricades start to form around the city.
Oh boy, Bread is is becomingrare.
People are getting scared rightrightly so between april 5th
and april 6th in 1992.
Okay, violence erupted.
Oh boy, there was a peacefulanti-war protest in sarajevo,
(28:10):
which was shattered by gunfire.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
And well done on saying it properly.
Thank you, you're welcome.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
And shortly after, serb national forces began
blockading the city, okay, andsuddenly Sarajevo was encircled
by artillery on the hills, sothey're kind of in a valley
Gotcha.
So yeah, there's just just,they're just surrounding,
they're surrounding them, thatsucks the siege of sarajevo
began and overnight the city's380,000 residents that's a lot
(28:42):
found themselves cut off fromthe world.
Okay, zolotic says, quote whenthe war started, I thought the
fighting was gonna to last abouta month, and this was after.
The fact that she's quotingthis Sure, makes sense.
But one month turned into many,and they got hit really hard.
Right as shells rained down onthe daily, snipers were on every
(29:06):
street.
Could you imagine, jesus Christ?
And daily life became aneveryday battle.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
Well right, I mean just doing anything.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
And Zlata and other children her age.
They grew up fast.
Reading this book, reading herdiary, you can't imagine she's
only 11.
Ah, I bet Like just some of thethings that she says, some of
the words that she uses.
It's like Wait a minute, what?
Are you sure you're not 15?
Speaker 2 (29:32):
16 even older, yeah jesus, you're 11 well, war makes
you grow up fast yeah I mean,look at all the you like world
war ii, as we've stated manytimes.
Look at all the young men whowent to war that weren't even
technically old enough to go butthey lied just to do it.
You know they grew up real quick.
Yeah, so they did, though whilethere's a line in that sullivan
(29:56):
song too, it was like I'm gonnabutcher it right now, but like
overnight my buddies turned intomen or whatever, something like
that.
I don't remember exact line offthe top of my head right now,
but war, war will make you growup fast.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Yes, so schools would close and zalata recalls that
she actually only attendedschool about once every three
days due to the fighting wow,and the rest of the time she
would try to read books,practice piano.
Um, she would be huddled in herparents cellar for for days at
(30:30):
a time because of the shelling.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
So did she go down there just for safety purposes?
Speaker 1 (30:34):
Yes, like her family and the neighbors.
They would all like huddletogether.
Don't you dare?
I'm sorry, don't you dare.
I'm not trying Drink more, okay.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
Cheers.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
So, with schools closed, Lotta and other kids
used the dim echoey cellar forlessons by candlelight.
That's wild.
They tried to improvise games.
They played cards as best theycould and Zlata often wrote in
Mimi down there Right, and theonly time she felt calm enough
to record her thoughts werebetween explosions.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Well, I mean, can you blame her?
No, I don't know how you'd feelcomfortable, like you know,
it's just that that's wild thecellar floor was concrete okay
the air was stale, water seepedin, but they were draped.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
They draped blankets amongst themselves, they shared
canned food and they huddledtogether for warmth.
Right, they went throughseveral winters.
Oh that's crazy.
That could not have beencomfortable several winters
without electricity and heat andgas and wow, yeah, bread they
nothing, yes, nothing of normalshit you should have.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
Basically.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
So to tame her fear a little bit, zlata nicknamed the
booming shells Chico and CeceOkay, and she sometimes joked
about them in her diary, but itwas just kind of a way to remove
the fear lighten the mood.
Lighten the mood, chico and ccwere actually animals of hers.
(32:16):
Oh okay, chico, I think, washer bird and cc was her cat,
both which passed away duringthe war so she had a bird, a cat
and a goldfish yes, thegoldfish died before I get that
the war, but yes, right um thecellar became wonderful applaud
(32:38):
thank you the cellar became botha prison and their refuge.
It was their home for a whilewell, yeah, you said there were
what?
Speaker 2 (32:49):
three winters, several winters.
Did you have a specific number?
Speaker 1 (32:53):
so it started um.
So she started writing in likeseptember of 91 yeah, that's
when she was 11 and the siege inher birthday's december.
So she was 12 then when thesiege started in April of 92.
Gotcha yes.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Delicious.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
So, early on, zlata gushed about slumber parties and
favorite songs Right.
And then, just like a fewmonths later, the start of her
journals were slaughter,massacre oh boy horrors that's
terrible because of the violencearound her oh right at one
(33:37):
point she writes I just walkedthrough my beautiful sarajevo
sarajevo sarajevo.
It makes me so sad, right, andit felt like her childhood was
just put on hold during all ofthis.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Oh, 100%, and rightly so, because you're trapped in a
basement.
All right, you can't do yournormal stuff, can't even go to
school properly, or every thirdday, or whatever it was.
But yeah, no kidding.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
So Zlata says, quote, quote a school, a school girl.
Without a school, without thefun and excitement of school, a
child without games, withoutfriends, without the sun,
without birds, without nature,without fruit, without chocolate
(34:28):
or sweets, with just a littlepowdered milk.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Oh boy.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
In short, a child without a childhood, a wartime
child.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Yep End quote 100% correct there, damn, that is
terrible.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
Zlata describes living on humanitarian aid
rations like canned food.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
And occasionally they'd put a little bit of
chocolate in there, but it was alittle while before they were
able to get some of theserations it reminds me of that
book.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
We both listened to tailspin, where they, like
everyone, always took his, theirchocolate out of the soldiers
and stuff.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
Yeah, it's apparently a common practice yes, um, they
did have a little wooden stoveokay and they would like get to
the point of having to, like,chop up all their furniture in
order to produce heat keep itgoing, yeah, yeah gotcha.
So, um, the basements and theshelters were their homes, their
(35:28):
playgrounds or classrooms.
During all these years Zlata'sfamily did their best to kind of
keep her in some type ofroutine.
Okay, her father would risksniper fire to fetch water from
the public pump.
They would do that at leastonce a day, and then there was a
point where I think he got ahernia.
He was able to see a doctorsomehow and the doctor was like
(35:51):
you can't be lifting anything.
So then it was on his wife togo and pick up all this water.
But they would still havelittle birthday parties here and
there.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Isn't that wild to think that people who are in
that situation would still havebirthday parties?
Speaker 1 (36:10):
I moved it.
I gotta stretch out my legs.
I feel like we should name him.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
What should we name him I?
Speaker 1 (36:20):
don't know.
We'll ask the public for somehelp.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
Name him.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
Public help.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
Okay, so A birthday party.
There was a chocolate cake madefrom powdered eggs and powdered
milk from the aid packages.
Okay, they actually loved itbecause they weren't used to it
at this point.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
Well, at that point it was something special, yeah,
so?
Speaker 1 (36:43):
Yeah.
One entry in the diarydescribes the death of Zlata's
friend Nina.
Sorry, I was.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
He's not laughing at that, he's for those of you who
are just listening and notwatching.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
Um, oh, good point.
I thought my canvas was fallingover.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
She had to give the quick uh quick side.
Look to uh the the buffoon'spicture painting.
All right, so I'm sorry that'sso sad, Nina.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
Nina was a classmate who used to play in the park
with her, and one day she wasjust killed by shrapnel from a
shell.
Oh fuck.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
I'm assuming she was similar age.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
Yes, okay.
Zlata pours her grief out ontoher pages.
She writes that the war isdisgusting.
And laments that her ownchildhood is being stolen.
Okay, but she also does expresssome hope that maybe tomorrow
the war will end.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
Wouldn't that be lovely.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
In one interview.
After the fact she said, quotethe most important thing I
learned is just to stay alive.
You keep living day to day,looking for food and water,
never knowing when you mighthave to run for your life.
Right Quote, wow.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
I couldn't imagine having to like think that way,
as at that age, you know, it'sjust, I mean, she's only a year
older than me, younger than me,excuse me, um.
So it's like, excuse me, um, soit's like I was right there
with her, but in a completelydifferent fucking situation.
Obviously, growing up in thestates, I know so I couldn't
imagine being that age andhaving to think that that way.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
That's just wild and it's sad that a kid who can't
even grow up wow so the the slowyugoslav wars was a conflict
where yesterday's next doorneighbor could be today's mortal
(38:40):
enemy.
Right, it was just.
It's purely ethnic identity andit just a flip of a switch
which is too bad.
All of a sudden, we're againsteach other.
Yeah, former friends foundthemselves divided by these
stupid invisible lines that noone said.
Hey, you have to fight so andso?
No, you don't.
(39:00):
You don't have to, you'rechoosing to.
They were just basically told to, so one observer noted,
poisonous politics ended upquoting, dividing friends,
neighbors and even families bytheir ethnic or religious
affiliation, and quote in multiethnic Bosnia, countless mixed
(39:21):
families were left torn, onecousin in a Bosnian army,
another cousin in the Serb army,literally shooting at each
other.
Isn't that wild?
It's crazy.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Because you basically thought you had to, but you
really didn't Not even so muchtold you you had to.
It's just like well, I'm onthis side, so I got to do this.
You don't, but okay.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
Bosnia had three factions Serb nationals wanted
to carve out a greater SerbiaOkay Okay.
And they were willing tobesiege all these cities and
villages to do it Right.
Then there were Croatnationalists that wanted a
greater Croatia Croat just Inparts of Bosnia Well sure.
(40:12):
And there's Bosniak Muslims whowere basically caught in the
middle, fighting formulti-ethnic Bosnia Right Okay.
These alliances shifted likesome weird soap opera.
Plot Soap opera, but theBosniaks and the Crotes,
(40:34):
initially allies against theSerbs, ended up fighting each
other for about a year and thenthey're like let's not do that.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Let's not do that.
Let's not do that yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
So it was like they couldn't even make up like who
the enemy was.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
Right yeah, no kidding.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
So the Sarahavians, saravios, saravians, sarahavos,
sarahavos.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
It sounds like Navajos.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
Sarahavos.
It sounds like navajossarahavos.
They actually developed somekind of weird dark humor during
all of this as like a copingmechanism.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
Well, I mean, you've known me for a while.
I typically use dark humor allthe time, especially in this.
I've never been in this setting, but you know what I mean like
something you wouldn't, youshouldn't do it in, but you do,
yeah, because it just it's acoping thing.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
So, yeah, I get that so they, they kind of thought it
in the way of if we don't laugh, we're going to cry.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
Yeah, sure.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
Yeah, so there was one example of the Miss Besieged
Sarah Hayvo Beauty Pageant heldin a basement in May of 1993.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
While shells fell outside, a group of Sarah
Hayvian women organized afull-on beauty contest
underground, complete with anaudience of locals, of un
peacekeepers, of journalistspacked into like a makeshift
bunker turned ballroom that'sfucked up, wow the contestants
(42:20):
dolled up as best they couldwith a little mascara and maybe
a little rouge and paraded tocheers and flashlight spotlights
okay and, at the end, thewinner, who was a 17 year old.
They had a handwritten bannerfor the cameras because there
were journalists there, yeah,and it read don't let them kill
(42:42):
us, oh shit I mean, I bet theyreally didn't want to die.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
No, but isn't it sad you had to write that on a
fucking sign?
Speaker 1 (42:50):
good lord, that's wild so there is a u2 song, the
band u2 I'm very familiar somepeople might not be do you know
where they're from?
Milwaukee what the fuck I don'tknow you when you ask me.
Do you know where they're from?
It's probably somewhere closeto us ireland okay.
Well, they have a song calledmiss sarajevo, sarajevo miss
(43:14):
sarajevo.
Speaker 2 (43:17):
Who's the singer?
Dave matthews bono, davematthews.
He has his own band.
Yeah, it's the dave matthewsband uh.
Speaker 1 (43:28):
Sarajevians often joked about the Unporfor, the,
what, the Unprofor, unprofor.
They were the United NationsProtection Force.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
Oh Okay.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
The Peacekeepers who had the bright blue helmets.
They actually nicknamed theSmurfs.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
Did they have a pop of Smurf and a Smurfette?
Speaker 1 (43:54):
They nicknamed the Smurfs, yes, because of their
blue helmets, but also becausethey were small in number and
they were kind of useless.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
Smurfs are not useless.
Brainy Smurf knew a lot of shit.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
One joke went around that a un soldier's to-do list
and sarajevo said number oneduck incoming fire yep number
two hand out food okay numberthree take a coffee break.
Coffee break.
Number four get yelled at bylocals for not stopping the war.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
I mean okay.
I mean you can't blame them forwanting the war to stop.
So all right, wow, okay.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
So it wasn't until late 1995 that decisive action
was starting to take place.
It's kind of crazy how longit's lasted, but yeah, no
kidding um, it's kind of crazyhow long it's lasted, but yeah,
no kidding, um zlata does kindof note deliveries of the
humanitarian aid and gratitude.
Um, she knew enough to writeabout politics in the situation,
(45:02):
but she didn't quite understandpolitics right well, no, I mean
, I shit, I don't yeah a lot ofpeople don't understand politics
.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
It's just how the, with all the fucking nuance and
everything that goes on with itand all the tomfoolery that also
all those fucking people do,it's like, how can you
understand it?
Yeah, unless you're in it.
Yeah, and I'm.
I know I'm speaking verygenerally and I'm talking about
myself, not other people.
Some people might have a handleon it.
Speaker 1 (45:31):
I fucking don't so zlata said later after this
whole thing she says, quotethere is no hope for anyone,
because the politicians ruinedwhat had been a model place for
all different people to livetogether there you go but
sarajevo's spirit wasn't brokenFuck no.
(45:53):
Under siege the city had thisbooming underground culture.
They had secret schools,concerts by candlelight and even
like these little satiricaltheaters which would kind of
make fun at the wartimeabsurdities.
Parents tried to shield theirkids from the hate.
In the multi-ethnic familiesthey taught children to be very
(46:18):
proud of who they are, whattheir heritage is, even as
extremists outside couldliterally kill them for it.
Speaker 2 (46:26):
It's just so sad they had to go through this.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (46:29):
So of course, it's impossible to talk about Zlata's
diary and not mention AnneFrank in her diary.
Speaker 2 (46:36):
Well, I mean she was inspired by it.
Speaker 1 (46:38):
There have been comparisons made between the two
.
Okay, Like they're both writersin their diary.
They're both young, they'reboth hiding.
They both named their diary.
They're both young, they'reboth hiding um.
Speaker 2 (46:54):
They both named their diary.
Do you, do you remember or didyou come across what anne frank
named her diary?
I guess kitty, kitty, I don't.
I'm sorry if you said thatearlier no, I didn't okay, I
read she did not have kitty.
Oh, as part of the diary.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
I don't know why they would remove that out of the
publication.
Yeah, that's weird, but heractual diary had dear kitty oh,
that's odd, though, yeah I don'tknow why, my version Anyway.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
I was just curious and I'm glad that was part of
your research, or at leastmemory.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
Yeah, but both diaries kind of chronicled this
loss of childhood in a senseright.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
Yeah, Sorry.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
I had to stretch my back is killing me.
But at one point Zlata does say, quote Some people compare me
with Anne Frank.
That frightens me, mimi, Idon't want to suffer her fate.
Speaker 2 (47:56):
End quote.
So why did people compare her?
Just because she wrote in adiary?
That's literally it.
She wrote in a diary duringwartime as a child and so people
like, hey, anne Frank did that.
Yeah, okay, gotcha, gotcha.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
So Zlata's personal war kind of ended around 1993,
so the war went on to 95 okaybut zlata's kind of ended around
93 is that when she expanded,not just she was um evacuated oh
from sarajevo with the help ofthe united nations, gotcha um.
By then she was about 13 yearsold and she had filled her diary
(48:32):
with two years worth of thesewartime memories well, yeah,
fuck that's.
That's a long fucking time thefighting was still raging, but
foreign journalists andhumanitarian groups had found
out about zlata's writings.
Speaker 2 (48:46):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
And so parts of her diary were published.
Speaker 2 (48:53):
Without her knowledge .
No, okay, they got herpermission.
I'm just making sure, becausethat would be a real dick move.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
They printed about 45 pages to raise awareness for
UNICEF.
Speaker 2 (49:05):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (49:07):
And reporters would visit Zlata's family.
That's wild Dodging snipers toget there, essentially to
interview her.
Speaker 2 (49:15):
That is fucking dedication.
Speaker 1 (49:17):
There was a French humanitarian group that arranged
for Zlata and her family to getout.
Okay, so they got them out ontoa UN plane bound straight for
Paris just before Christmas in93.
Okay, a un plane bound straightfor paris just before christmas
in 93.
Okay, um, she did have to leavebehind her grandparents, which
she would try to visit when shewas able to.
(49:37):
Right, they didn't live too faraway, but far enough that it's.
It was unsafe to go often,gotcha, she managed to grab her
teddy bears in her diary oh, inher flea vesper would definitely
grab her stuffies.
Yeah, yeah, she calls them so soin paris um her diary was
published in france, it becamean instant bestseller.
(49:59):
Stop it, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (50:00):
I'm sorry I just need more oxygen to the brain she
became an instant bestseller.
Speaker 1 (50:07):
It topped france's non-fiction charts and
publishing rights um weresnapped, snatched up by other
publishers in a dozen countriesokay so when zlata's diary came
out, in what I thought, you wereyawning again no, I'm just
sorry, we're almost done I getthat and I'm not.
(50:30):
I'm not complaining, I'm notsaying anything, I just I need
to stand up we're almost at Iknow, okay, so we got this
zlata's diary came out inenglish in 94 okay um zlata did
a press tour, media interviewsand she she basically wanted to
(50:51):
publish this.
Speaker 2 (50:52):
Right.
Speaker 1 (50:54):
So she could help the children of Sarajevo.
Sarajevo, yes, sorry.
After a year in Paris, zlata'sfamily moved to Dublin, ireland.
Hey, where are you two from?
Zlata grew up to become a humanrights activist and author okay
she eventually graduated fromuniversity.
(51:16):
She studied at oxford and thedublin's trinity college.
Look at her go.
Zlata's diary itself remains uma widely read memoir.
Okay that is assigned inschools.
What's the?
Speaker 2 (51:29):
name of it.
Speaker 1 (51:30):
Zlata's Diary.
Speaker 2 (51:31):
That's literally all it's called.
I've never heard of this, but Ialso.
Again, I was, like I said, I'ma year older than her, so I
suppose by the time it wouldhave gotten to schools or stuff,
I was out of that shit, or pastwhatever age I guess, but okay.
Speaker 1 (51:50):
So the Sarajevo that was left behind was slowly
rebuilt.
Okay, the siege was lifted inFebruary of 96.
Wow.
Speaker 2 (52:01):
Jesus Christ.
Speaker 1 (52:02):
Over 10,000 people died in Sarajevo alone.
Right 1,600 of them werechildren.
Fuck that's a lot.
Right, 1,600 of them werechildren Fuck that's a lot.
They reopened schools, theaters, cafes and tried to knit all
these multicultural familiesback together.
Sure, bosnia and Herzegovina isat peace, thank God.
(52:25):
What's that?
The war's aftermath is still alittle bit complicated.
Um, there were war crime trialsoh boy um.
But there is organizations likethe war childhood museum in
sarajevo, sarajevo, which nowpreserve the memories of the
(52:46):
children who endured theconflict and who, yeah, made it
through that shit so war in thiscase was not just about the
generals and the battles.
It was about families coweringin basements, right kids riding
by candlelight, friends sayinggoodbye at funerals.
Ethnic hatred turned neighborsinto targets and international
(53:11):
politics turned a local crisisinto years of suffering Wild.
Speaker 2 (53:16):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (53:16):
One of Zlata's own diary entries near the end of
her book captures kind of abittersweet note as she prepares
to leave her town.
Okay, she addresses her diaryone last time and she wills for
hope and for peace and toprotect her friends that she had
to leave behind that's just sosad because, like, having to
(53:38):
leave your friends behind likethey did is just like I don't
know.
Speaker 2 (53:43):
It's hard for me to grasp it because I've never had
to go through anything anywhereremotely similar.
Yeah, but leaving friendsbehind like that and shit is
just fucking wild.
Speaker 1 (53:51):
Yeah, because of the war-torn people yeah I don't
know so yugoslavia officiallydissolved, yeah, on june 5th
2006.
Wow, not until then.
Like I knew of yugoslavia, sodo I I.
And now it's not even a thinganymore no, and it's funny
(54:11):
because I don't.
Speaker 2 (54:15):
I guess I don't know the time frame in my in my life,
but yeah, I always knew aboutyugoslavia, yugoslavia, and then
now there's no.
I remember that vaguely, notwell, but you know, and that's
why I knew, likebosnia-herzegovina and sarajevo
and all that.
But yeah, I think I mean it wasyears after that fact, but this
(54:37):
is also many years ago.
Now I'm like yugoslavia is nota thing anymore.
Speaker 1 (54:42):
Yeah, it's like holy fuck so when montenegro, which
is another little republic,declared its independence, that
was around 2006, okay, and iteffectively ended the state
union of serbia and montenegro,which was part of the federal
republic of yugoslavia, rightyeah so they were the last ones
(55:03):
to be like okay, we want to beindependent too.
Speaker 2 (55:05):
So now there is no yugoslavia so that was like the
last thread holding on toYugoslavia.
Yes, exactly yes, wow.
Speaker 1 (55:12):
So that is the story of Zlata and the Yugoslav war in
the early 90s.
You made it through.
Speaker 2 (55:22):
I'm sorry, I'm really warm it's really warm up here.
I don't know why it's so warmup here.
Right now it's very warm andthat does not bode well for
Bradley.
When I get warm, I get tiredand I fucking shut down and I
hate that.
So I'm sorry.
It's okay it wasn't because Iwasn't interested.
(55:43):
I'm sorry about the occasionalyawn.
It's okay, it is really.
Why is it so warm up here?
I don't know.
It's okay, it is really.
Why is it so warm up here?
Seriously, but anyways, okay,no, that is.
Speaker 1 (55:54):
It's a sad story.
Speaker 2 (55:55):
It is a sad story and that's really on track for our
brand.
Speaker 1 (55:57):
So I mean I was looking up happy stories earlier
I was like no, that one sucks.
No, that one sucks.
Speaker 2 (56:07):
Happy story Yugoslavia breaking up.
Speaker 1 (56:11):
Okay, okay, last thoughts on Pig Farmer.
Speaker 2 (56:16):
I liked it I do too.
Speaker 1 (56:17):
I like it.
Speaker 2 (56:18):
It's a pale ale, it's not like a.
It's a pale ale that youactually can get behind, because
, again, it's not super paleale-y.
Yeah, not super pale aly yeahit's maybe a bit more than like
the founders of what you likethe session, but it's not a ton
yeah, no.
I really enjoyed it, though Ican't recall when I used to sell
(56:41):
this, if I've ever had this one, but whether I did.
I forgot and I apologize, but Ireally like it it's really good
.
I would definitely have somedeusterbacks.
Pig's Pig Farmer again, mm-hmm.
So maybe we should go there oneof these days again when you
come to visit.
Sure, it's not that far fromwhere I live and they got yeah,
it's cool with the barn andstuff and so on, whatever.
(57:03):
But yeah, I really like it.
It's not bad at all.
Speaker 1 (57:07):
Awesome.
Speaker 2 (57:07):
I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Speaker 1 (57:09):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (57:10):
Well.
I suppose, All right, buffoons.
That's it for today's episode.
Speaker 1 (57:15):
Buckle up, because we've got another historical
adventure waiting for you.
Next time Feeling hungry formore buffoonery, or maybe you
have a burning question or awild historical theory for us to
explore.
Speaker 2 (57:27):
Hit us up on social media.
We're History Buffoons Podcaston YouTube X, instagram and
Facebook.
You can also email us athistorybuffoonspodcast at
gmailcom.
We are Bradley and Kate.
Music by Corey Akers.
Speaker 1 (57:41):
Follow us wherever you get your podcasts and turn
those notifications on to stayin the loop.
Speaker 2 (57:46):
Until next time, stay curious and don't forget to
rate and review us.
Speaker 1 (57:49):
Remember, the buffoonery never stops.
oh, hey there, oh hey there oh come on, I just
started.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Oh man, that was like I think your painting got a
little excited there, oh my goshor just startled Something.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Well, it startled me, jeez Louise.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Oh dear.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Am I really that animated?
Sometimes, History just excitesme.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
It's a passion.
He's looking at you funny.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
I know.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
What's going on?
Speaker 1 (00:51):
I think we're going to put it next to you next time.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
That's fine.
I'd say, throw it over here,but I know something will get
knocked over if that's the case.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Yeah, we have precious beer.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Well, luckily those aren't open yet.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
But anyways, we are the History, buffoons, the
history.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Yes, we're the history, buffoons, I'm bradley,
I'm kate, and uh, welcome toanother episode yeah, and this
is our um unfinished painting ohso I didn't realize that I
forgot the blue around themicrophone, around the
microphone.
So now now it's bothering herand me more or less, but yes,
(01:25):
now I gotta fix it.
The funny thing is it didn'tbother me until kate noticed it
and brought it up to me andshe's like I forgot the blue.
I'm like, oh shit, you did.
Now that's all I can see islike the non-blue the non-blue
so we might have a littleupdated version of that in the
near future oh, my burp is soclose I know I can't wait for it
to come out so I can add it tothe burp track oh, it's so close
(01:47):
, it's just sitting there, it'sjust all.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Of course, that could be my acid reflux.
I mean, that's very possibletoo.
I used to get like heartpalpitations that would like
shock me.
Yeah, um, I think it was likestress induced or anxiety
induced.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
I've got that before, yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
And the doctors are like you're not having heart
palpitations, it's acid reflux.
I'm like okay, and so I've beenon.
I thought I moved, so I've beenon acid reducer ever since and
I'm out of it for like the lastthree days.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yeah, you had said we .
I can tell you tried to find itand they only had the name
brand super expensive stuff,which I'm not going to buy.
No, fuck that.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
I'll have Acid Reflex .
It feels like a burp.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
I'm just waiting for it to come out during this
episode.
I know I hope it's epic,because this buildup is leading
towards it and it's probablygoing to be super disappointing.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
I know I shouldn't have said anything.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
So what do we got to drink today, Kate?
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Oh, we have Pig Farmer by.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
By.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Deusterbecks, deusterbecks.
Yes, oh, was that right, notDeusterbecks.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Deusterbecks yes.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Oh, was that right.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Not Deusterbecks, but yes.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Can you tell why I would say Deutschland?
You know, deusterbecks, it'sspelled D-U-E-S.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
D-U-S, d-u-e-s, I said D-U-E-S.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Like Deutschland.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
I took you here once.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Yes, I used to you.
Yes, like Deutschland, I tookyou here once.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Yes, I used to sell this beer.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
The bar looks like this Pretty much.
Yeah, the bar is pretty muchthe barn.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
It's in an old barn.
Yeah, no, they got a coollittle thing going on over there
.
Yeah, I really like it.
I like a lot of their beers.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Yeah, okay.
So where's this?
At Where's this, at where'sthis?
Speaker 2 (03:43):
at elkhorn elkhorn wisconsin and um.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
This is a pale ale yeah, holy balls.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
All of a sudden I yawned, not allowed.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Sorry, I need a beer let's, let's fix that right now.
I am.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
That was elongated.
Cheers, cheers.
It's not bad.
What do you think being notbeing a huge pale ale person?
A little on the lighter side ofa pale ale so I kind of thought
you might not like that, notmind.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
That one is what I meant to say farm fresh beer
what would you feel about wineon a podcast instead of beer
next time?
Speaker 2 (04:28):
I'd be fine with it yeah, you like wine I don't go
out of my way to ever drink it.
Typically, when it comes towine, I'm usually on the sweeter
side of wines like moscato yeah, stuff like that, which is like
the real wine enthusiast, notwine like my dad was, yeah, it
basically like I could glug,glug, glug.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
And Like my dad was, yeah, it basically was Like I
could glug, glug, glug.
And that's why I don't buy it,cause I can glug, glug, glug.
Nobody wants to see that.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
But, um, my dad was huge into wine and oh, okay, I
didn't know that.
Oh yeah, he what the fuck Likea subscription.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Basically, yeah, a wine subscription.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
He would get random boxes with random varieties in
it and whatever from all overfrom Napa Valley, which is huge
in wine, and across the countryand whatever Right he loved
really.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Did you hear it?
Because I heard it.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
I heard it.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
What did it say?
Speaker 2 (05:24):
I don't know, I can't read that far.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Potential computer difficulties.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Well, we'll get it out of the way now.
Hold, please, and we're back.
All right, anyway.
So my dad was really big intowine.
He really liked reds.
He would drink white wines buthe was a big fan of reds and my
problem with reds is 99% of them.
(05:55):
You drink room temperature.
I don't like room temperaturebeverages.
I don't like warm beverages, soI like cold.
There used to be thisrestaurant.
We would go to that.
We've been beverages, so I likecold.
There used to be thisrestaurant we would go to that.
We've been going to since I waslittle.
It's unfortunately closed now.
They used to have really goodgnocchis with meat sauce, but
it's called Albanese's inBrookfield.
They would serve their housered and it would be chilled.
(06:18):
I like that.
That was good.
You can chill a red.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
I do chill my reds.
I can't not.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Yeah, I'm like, like this is super cold right now.
I know it's really good.
Let me reach my beer, um.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
My favorite is pinot grigio.
Okay, um, and I like that.
It's more of a sipper for meversus like the muscat where
it's uh, glug, glug 3000, yeah,yeah, that's understandable okay
, so maybe we'll do that at somepoint yeah, we'll.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
We like to mix it up.
We throw a cocktail in hereonce in a while and yeah
whatever.
So yeah, we'll change it changeit change it um oh, I have a
pen in my shirt.
I was editing earlier and I wasusing it.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
That's funny.
You don't need a pen to edit onthe computer and insert cricket
sounds.
Here I have a question for youdo you really?
I feel like it's been a minuteI know it's because it's because
most of our stuff has kind ofbeen in depth recently a little
(07:38):
bit longer.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Yeah, I would.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
I would certainly say that yeah so, um, this one, I
think we could shoot the shit alittle bit.
Um, did you ever grow upwriting in a diary or journal or
anything like in full?
Like?
This is just for me.
I want to lock on this thing.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
I know, um, I think I've attempted, I would say,
multiple times in multiple timesthroughout my life.
Yeah, the most recent one wasprobably 20 years ago, as a
(08:20):
younger person, maybe a coupletimes.
I couldn't tell you when orwhatever, I'm sure they haven't
survived moves and stuff, but itwas never really a dear journal
.
Right Today I had a thoughtit's like okay, yeah.
Just never.
Never was my thing, so whatabout you?
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Yeah, same I, I uh, probably started quite a few,
and just no, I'm not a writerand it's not even so much.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Not being a writer which I am not by any stretch I
just I don't have thatcommitment, yeah, discipline, to
do that every day.
I know for some people it's agreat thing.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Not for me, yeah, so is what it is.
Yeah, that did not come from me.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
That was so weird.
That came from like, that waslike an elongated one.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
It was just a at the end.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
But it was like a trail of.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
I know, it was really weird.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Beer burp coming up and it took so long to come out,
mine actually went down alittle bit.
Oh man, it was probably acidreflux.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
I'm so looking forward to hearing that one.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
I'll give you one later.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
I'm sure you will.
You're having bubbles, so we'llget one in this podcast, but
anyway, so yeah, so no, I neverreally did that.
That wasn't my thing.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Okay, so we are going to talk about the Yugoslav War.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Do you know of it?
Speaker 2 (09:48):
I mean, I think I might have heard of it.
I couldn't tell you a damnthing about it.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
It happened in the early 90s.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
That's probably why I heard about it, because I was
alive.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Interesting Okay.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
So the country kind of went into one of the biggest
breakups ever.
So Yugoslavia was like this big, united but kind of
dysfunctional family of nations.
Yugoslavia was a federation andit consisted of six republics,
(10:23):
so it was Bosnia and Herzegovina.
Herzegovina yeah, herzegovina.
How'd you know that?
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Because Bosnia and Herzegovina, aren't they like
one single place now?
Yes, it's one, yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Yeah, and then there's Croatia and Macedonia,
Montenegro, Serbia and Slovenia.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
I didn't realize those were all under Yugoslavia.
I guess I never knew that Okay.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Huh.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
In addition, there were two additional provinces
under the Republic of Serbia, oh, so it's kind of like Wisconsin
in the United States.
There's Kosovo and Vovdina.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
I haven't heard of that one.
I've heard of Kosovo, though,uh-huh.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Okay, but they were provinces in Serbia, okay.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Gotcha so.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
I am going to talk a little bit about Bosnia and
Herzegovina.
Yeah, maybe I'm just going tolook at you to see that.
End point Herzegovina.
Because Maybe I'm just going tolook at you to say that, end
point Herzegovina, becausethat's kind of where our story
takes place.
Okay, most of the story.
So since the 15th century bothregions were governed together
under the Ottoman Empire andthen later the Austro-Hungarian
(11:40):
Empires.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
So they've been around for a long time.
Yeah, oh, wow.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
And they shared borders and cultures and
administration for a long timeokay and then as part of the
yugoslav republic.
In 1945, leader joseph brostito lumped bosnia and
herzegovina.
I love it that that's awesomeInto one of the six socialist
(12:07):
republics.
Okay, and it kind of cementedtheir political unity.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
So they basically have a government like the USSR
in a way like socialists.
All that stuff Is that kind ofwhat their grouping was.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Okay and continue.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Okay, herzegovina.
Yeah, sorry if you didn't pointmy bad.
So in the middle of this chaos,there's actually a young girl
named zlata filipovic okay andshe and her family live in
sarajevo, bosnia sarajevo yeah,saraje, Do you want to do this?
Because dang Mr Pronunciationover here.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
I'm not that good.
Okay, sarajevo, sarajevo,sarajevo.
Yes, I mean, that's what you'retalking about, right?
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Yes, okay, so you know of it.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
I've heard of it.
Yeah, about right, yes, okay,so you know of it.
I've heard of it, yeah, becausethe um trans-siberian orchestra
has a song called like oh, whatthe fuck's the title?
Something sarajevo or whatever,something like that.
I'm trying to blank on the fulltitle of this song.
Fuck, now I feel stupid that Ican't remember because I like
trans Siberian, siberianorchestra.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Well, there's a lot of um.
Kept a diary during the Bosnianwar, okay, um, and she was kind
of called the Anne Frank ofSarah.
Have have, oh.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Sarajevo.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Sarajevo.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
She was the Anne Frank of Sarajevo.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Yeah so so she hid in a cat an attic a basement oh, I
mean zlata wrote about siegelife sniper fire, how she lost
friends, all wolf still worryingabout doing homework and isn't
that wild trying to listen topop music and oh yeah what was
(14:04):
her favorite band?
Um.
She enjoyed michael jackson andguns and roses oh, that's.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
That's quite a nice variety.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
I like it so a little bit of historical background on
the breakup of yugoslavia kindof a crash course.
If you will Probably crash intothis, what Probably crash and
burn?
Idiom Jesus.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Christ Idiom.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Yugoslavia was once a united country, okay, and it
fell apart in the early 90s, soin the 1980s.
T joseph bros, tito he um, endsends up dying, and with him so
does the glue that heldeverybody together so what was
(14:56):
so important about him that heheld everything together like
was he the ruler of yeah?
Yeah, he was the leader so what?
Speaker 2 (15:03):
did he have?
A specific position likepresident?
I mean what?
What position did he hold thathe was the leader?
Speaker 1 (15:08):
I don't think that I wrote down specifically what his
title was, but he was like incharge of yugoslavia and all the
republics for like quite awhile yeah, yeah, gotcha um, and
it's all multi-ethnic groups inYugoslavia, sure.
So as soon as he's gone, thekids aka the nationalist
(15:32):
politicians and all that theykind of start acting out, okay.
So over the 1980s there's aneconomic crisis and the
resurgent nationalism spread hey.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
I need to check something.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Okay, there it is.
It has surfaced.
Unleash the Kraken.
Wow that was.
I would say that was epic and Iwould be right, holy shit.
So sorry about that littlebreak.
(16:10):
I had to check something, checka setting, and then we got
graced by a delicious burp fromKate over there.
Okay, anywho, sorry, yes.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
So leaders from Serbia.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Pushed their own agendas well, most do and tito
just kind of suppressed all thatokay, so he was kind of able to
keep them all like tolerable ofeach other right.
So it was kind of like adecades-long family feud.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
That just kind of started family feud kind of
breaking up at the dinner tableyou know, during thanksgiving,
when everybody kind of comesyeah do you think anyone flipped
the plates off like, fuck this,anyways something.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
Okay, I'm gonna take the turkey with me yeah, I want
a turkey leg in 1991, umyugoslavia's republics starting
are starting to wanderseparation.
Okay, in june of 91 sloveniaand croatia declare independence
.
Oh, slovenia's separation is iskind of a brief little battle
(17:13):
okay it's.
It was a 10-day little battleby the yugoslav people's army
okay who had moved into secureborder posts.
Oh, and they mostly fought likelight infantry type of
encounters.
So it wasn't like full-on blownbattles.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
No, no, there was still conflict.
Nonetheless, there was conflict.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
But then there was a ceasefire and the Yugoslav
People's Army, with Jew andSlovenia, maintained their
declaration of independence.
Gotcha, okay.
Croatia's declaration was alittle bit more messy.
War erupted with the YugoslavArmy, which was largely Serb-led
(17:57):
, okay, and local Serb forces.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Serbs against other, well, not even against Serbs, I
think kind of all the Serbs likekind of banded together against
the Croatians, oh gotcha, Ithink that's how it was Okay and
I'll tell you a little bit moreabout that Gotcha.
In 1992, Bosnia's excuse me byApril of 92, Bosnia and
Herzegovina were mostlyethnically mixed republic.
(18:28):
There were Muslim Bosniaks,there were Orthodox Serbs, there
were Catholic Croats.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Croats, so Croatians, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
And so Bosnia and….
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Herzegovina.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
They declared independence as well.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
So Bosnia becomes the main battlefield of the
Yugoslav wars.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Really Mm-hmm Okay.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Bosnian Serb forces, backed by Serbia's national
leadership, oppose theindependence and lay siege to
Sarajevo, sarajevo, sarajevo.
So the Bosniak Muslims and theBosnian Croats.
The forces initially fight theSarabs and at one point, tragic
(19:18):
point, they were actually likefighting each other the, the
muslims and the croats and andthen they're like this is stupid
.
So then they started likestupid.
Yes and they're like let's,let's band together again.
It was all like games of gameof thrones I never knew.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
I never knew croatians were called croats.
I've never heard that before.
Yeah, that's different.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Yeah, okay so the siege of Sarajevo.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
You're getting there Sarajevo.
Yeah, In April 1992, Bosnia'scapital which is Sarajevo, and I
believe, if I'm not mistaken,the Trans-Siberian Orchestra's
song is Christmas Eve, sarajevo.
Oh, very nice yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Well, Sarajevo was home of the 1984,.
Did I not pronounce it right?
Speaker 2 (20:06):
That was close.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
They had the 1984 Winter Olympics there.
Oh, did they?
Yes.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
I wasn't old enough to remember that today.
So, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
So Sarajevo.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Close.
You're getting there.
What is?
Speaker 1 (20:25):
it Sarajevo?
That's what?
Yeah, okay, so sarajevo close,you're getting there.
What is it sarajevo?
That's what it says.
Sarajevo, stop it stop it.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
That bird made me yawn.
How is that possible?
There it is jesus christ um.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
So sarajevo becomes under siege by the Bosnian Serbs
.
Okay, bosnian Serbs are worriedthat they would be vulnerable
as an ethnic minority Right In aBosniak-dominated country.
So many preferred staying in aSerb-led Yugoslavia oh, in a
(21:00):
Serb-led Yugoslavia, oh.
So if you start breaking apartYugoslavia, there's less and
less majority Serbs.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Right, no, that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Okay, so that's why all the Serbs are trying to band
together and they don't wantthis independence Gotcha.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
That makes sense.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
They don't want to be the minority.
Okay, so this siege will lastalmost four years, and it's the
longest siege of a capital cityin modern history.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Four years, holy crap .
That's a long fucking time tosiege a city.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
So between 93 and 94, war rages on throughout Bosnia.
Sarajevo's people endure dailyshellings, fuck, and the
notorious like sniper alleywhere we're stepping out for
bread even could be lethal.
Right um, internationalpeacekeepers from the un showed
(21:57):
up wearing like blue helmets andgood intentions, but with
orders not to shoot, okay.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
So didn't do anything .
What was the point?
Didn't do anything?
No, they really didn't.
I mean what would have been thepoint for?
Speaker 1 (22:14):
them to do that.
They're like here's some foodrations.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Namaste.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Stop shooting.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Yeah, don't be cruel to each other.
We're not going to listen toyou it's like no, we're gonna
keep doing what we've been doing.
I mean I just, I mean I gettheir intentions, they were
peaceful, whatever but what werethey really going to accomplish
by?
Just, yeah, they got him some.
It's coming back.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Here it go.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Here it go 1995.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Yes, the world's patience was finally televised.
Atrocities Atrocities.
Atrocities what word is that?
Atrocities?
There it is.
Atrocities in the cities thereit is, I trust.
(23:23):
Cities and the cities.
In July of 1995,.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Bosnian Serb forces overrun the UN.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Okay.
And there is a massacre of over7,000 Bosniak men and boys, oh
shit, yeah.
And not long after Serb forcesbomb Sarajevo, yep, yep.
And finallyajevo, yep, yep, andfinally NATO, yeah, decides to
drop the paperwork and pick upthe peace and it launches
airstrikes against Bosnian Serbpositions in August of 95.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Damn.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
Combined with Bosnian Crote ground offensives.
Yeah, this pressure kind ofweans the leaders into peace
talks.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
Okay, in December of 95, the parties finally signed
the Dayton Peace Accords.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Dayton Peace Accords Okay.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Bosnia is split into two semi-autonomous entities
bosnia croat federation and aserb republic okay and the war
in bosnia at this time isofficially over.
A hundred thousand people arekilled, god damn 40 percent of
(24:18):
them are civilians.
Wow, that's really sad.
Two million plus people aredisplaced well, sure, that makes
sense between six and eleventhousand people.
Six thousand and eleventhousand people of the dead were
children.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Oh fuck yeah that's really always depressing to hear
, because they obviously didn'thave a choice or anything.
So wow, no.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
So that kind of brings me to this young girl,
yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
What's her name again ?
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Sorry, zalata, zalata , zalata.
Okay, so, like I said, sarajevowas kind of a melting pot of
all these ethnicities, sothere's the Bosniaks and the
Serbs and Croats, and they alllived together somewhat
peacefully, right?
So Zlatova was born on December3rd 1980.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Okay, so she would have been 15 at this time.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
So it actually starts .
Her diary starts when she's 11.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
Oh, so she'd been writing for four years already.
Okay, yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
I wanted to give you a background on the war before
introducing her.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
But yeah, she's there at the start of it, Okay.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Yeah, fair enough.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
So she was a happy girl middle-class childhood.
Her father was a lawyer, hermother was a chemist.
She loved Michael Jackson, gunsN' Roses.
Yep was a lawyer.
Her mother was a chemist.
She loved michael jackson, gunsand roses.
Um, their family took a ton ofvacations up in the mountains
and at this time, in septemberof 91, she was in fifth grade.
Okay, okay.
And at that point she receivedthis little blank diary.
(25:56):
Oh, she was inspired by thediary of anne frank.
She did read that and shedecided to name her diary Mimi.
Mimi Mimi, mimi, m-i-m-m-y, mimi.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
And actually it was after her pet goldfish that had
passed Mimi.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Is it common to name your diary Because you're like
writing to it.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Basically, yeah, yeah , you're almost having a
conversation exactly throughwords.
And she would always say, dearmimi, and she would end with
yours lotta oh, okay, I guess Inever really knew that there is
one yeah, nice, nice, nice soher first like entries were
about piano lessons and birthdayparties and friends at school.
I just closed down my how didthat?
(26:46):
Happen.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
I have no idea.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
She would say things like quote I'm watching the
American Top 20 on MTV.
I don't remember a thing.
Who's in what place?
I feel great because I've justeaten a Four Seasons pizza with
ham, cheese, ketchup andmushrooms.
It was yummy.
Maybe that's why I didn'tremember who took what place.
I was too busy enjoying mypizza.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
End quote Wow Okay.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
In October.
She said quote some reservistsfrom Montenegro have entered
Herzegovina.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Herzegovina yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Why?
For what Politics, it seems,but I don't understand politics.
Right After Slovenia andCroatia, are the winds of war
now blowing toward Bosnia orHerzegovina.
No, that's impossible.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
End quote.
Or Herzegovina.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
That's the one.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Is Herzegovina.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Barricades start to form around the city.
Oh boy, Bread is is becomingrare.
People are getting scared rightrightly so between april 5th
and april 6th in 1992.
Okay, violence erupted.
Oh boy, there was a peacefulanti-war protest in sarajevo,
(28:10):
which was shattered by gunfire.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
And well done on saying it properly.
Thank you, you're welcome.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
And shortly after, serb national forces began
blockading the city, okay, andsuddenly Sarajevo was encircled
by artillery on the hills, sothey're kind of in a valley
Gotcha.
So yeah, there's just just,they're just surrounding,
they're surrounding them, thatsucks the siege of sarajevo
began and overnight the city's380,000 residents that's a lot
(28:42):
found themselves cut off fromthe world.
Okay, zolotic says, quote whenthe war started, I thought the
fighting was gonna to last abouta month, and this was after.
The fact that she's quotingthis Sure, makes sense.
But one month turned into many,and they got hit really hard.
Right as shells rained down onthe daily, snipers were on every
(29:06):
street.
Could you imagine, jesus Christ?
And daily life became aneveryday battle.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
Well right, I mean just doing anything.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
And Zlata and other children her age.
They grew up fast.
Reading this book, reading herdiary, you can't imagine she's
only 11.
Ah, I bet Like just some of thethings that she says, some of
the words that she uses.
It's like Wait a minute, what?
Are you sure you're not 15?
Speaker 2 (29:32):
16 even older, yeah jesus, you're 11 well, war makes
you grow up fast yeah I mean,look at all the you like world
war ii, as we've stated manytimes.
Look at all the young men whowent to war that weren't even
technically old enough to go butthey lied just to do it.
You know they grew up real quick.
Yeah, so they did, though whilethere's a line in that sullivan
(29:56):
song too, it was like I'm gonnabutcher it right now, but like
overnight my buddies turned intomen or whatever, something like
that.
I don't remember exact line offthe top of my head right now,
but war, war will make you growup fast.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Yes, so schools would close and zalata recalls that
she actually only attendedschool about once every three
days due to the fighting wow,and the rest of the time she
would try to read books,practice piano.
Um, she would be huddled in herparents cellar for for days at
(30:30):
a time because of the shelling.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
So did she go down there just for safety purposes?
Speaker 1 (30:34):
Yes, like her family and the neighbors.
They would all like huddletogether.
Don't you dare?
I'm sorry, don't you dare.
I'm not trying Drink more, okay.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
Cheers.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
So, with schools closed, Lotta and other kids
used the dim echoey cellar forlessons by candlelight.
That's wild.
They tried to improvise games.
They played cards as best theycould and Zlata often wrote in
Mimi down there Right, and theonly time she felt calm enough
to record her thoughts werebetween explosions.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Well, I mean, can you blame her?
No, I don't know how you'd feelcomfortable, like you know,
it's just that that's wild thecellar floor was concrete okay
the air was stale, water seepedin, but they were draped.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
They draped blankets amongst themselves, they shared
canned food and they huddledtogether for warmth.
Right, they went throughseveral winters.
Oh that's crazy.
That could not have beencomfortable several winters
without electricity and heat andgas and wow, yeah, bread they
nothing, yes, nothing of normalshit you should have.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
Basically.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
So to tame her fear a little bit, zlata nicknamed the
booming shells Chico and CeceOkay, and she sometimes joked
about them in her diary, but itwas just kind of a way to remove
the fear lighten the mood.
Lighten the mood, chico and ccwere actually animals of hers.
(32:16):
Oh okay, chico, I think, washer bird and cc was her cat,
both which passed away duringthe war so she had a bird, a cat
and a goldfish yes, thegoldfish died before I get that
the war, but yes, right um thecellar became wonderful applaud
(32:38):
thank you the cellar became botha prison and their refuge.
It was their home for a whilewell, yeah, you said there were
what?
Speaker 2 (32:49):
three winters, several winters.
Did you have a specific number?
Speaker 1 (32:53):
so it started um.
So she started writing in likeseptember of 91 yeah, that's
when she was 11 and the siege inher birthday's december.
So she was 12 then when thesiege started in April of 92.
Gotcha yes.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Delicious.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
So, early on, zlata gushed about slumber parties and
favorite songs Right.
And then, just like a fewmonths later, the start of her
journals were slaughter,massacre oh boy horrors that's
terrible because of the violencearound her oh right at one
(33:37):
point she writes I just walkedthrough my beautiful sarajevo
sarajevo sarajevo.
It makes me so sad, right, andit felt like her childhood was
just put on hold during all ofthis.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Oh, 100%, and rightly so, because you're trapped in a
basement.
All right, you can't do yournormal stuff, can't even go to
school properly, or every thirdday, or whatever it was.
But yeah, no kidding.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
So Zlata says, quote, quote a school, a school girl.
Without a school, without thefun and excitement of school, a
child without games, withoutfriends, without the sun,
without birds, without nature,without fruit, without chocolate
(34:28):
or sweets, with just a littlepowdered milk.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Oh boy.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
In short, a child without a childhood, a wartime
child.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Yep End quote 100% correct there, damn, that is
terrible.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
Zlata describes living on humanitarian aid
rations like canned food.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
And occasionally they'd put a little bit of
chocolate in there, but it was alittle while before they were
able to get some of theserations it reminds me of that
book.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
We both listened to tailspin, where they, like
everyone, always took his, theirchocolate out of the soldiers
and stuff.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
Yeah, it's apparently a common practice yes, um, they
did have a little wooden stoveokay and they would like get to
the point of having to, like,chop up all their furniture in
order to produce heat keep itgoing, yeah, yeah gotcha.
So, um, the basements and theshelters were their homes, their
(35:28):
playgrounds or classrooms.
During all these years Zlata'sfamily did their best to kind of
keep her in some type ofroutine.
Okay, her father would risksniper fire to fetch water from
the public pump.
They would do that at leastonce a day, and then there was a
point where I think he got ahernia.
He was able to see a doctorsomehow and the doctor was like
(35:51):
you can't be lifting anything.
So then it was on his wife togo and pick up all this water.
But they would still havelittle birthday parties here and
there.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Isn't that wild to think that people who are in
that situation would still havebirthday parties?
Speaker 1 (36:10):
I moved it.
I gotta stretch out my legs.
I feel like we should name him.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
What should we name him I?
Speaker 1 (36:20):
don't know.
We'll ask the public for somehelp.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
Name him.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
Public help.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
Okay, so A birthday party.
There was a chocolate cake madefrom powdered eggs and powdered
milk from the aid packages.
Okay, they actually loved itbecause they weren't used to it
at this point.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
Well, at that point it was something special, yeah,
so?
Speaker 1 (36:43):
Yeah.
One entry in the diarydescribes the death of Zlata's
friend Nina.
Sorry, I was.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
He's not laughing at that, he's for those of you who
are just listening and notwatching.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
Um, oh, good point.
I thought my canvas was fallingover.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
She had to give the quick uh quick side.
Look to uh the the buffoon'spicture painting.
All right, so I'm sorry that'sso sad, Nina.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
Nina was a classmate who used to play in the park
with her, and one day she wasjust killed by shrapnel from a
shell.
Oh fuck.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
I'm assuming she was similar age.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
Yes, okay.
Zlata pours her grief out ontoher pages.
She writes that the war isdisgusting.
And laments that her ownchildhood is being stolen.
Okay, but she also does expresssome hope that maybe tomorrow
the war will end.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
Wouldn't that be lovely.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
In one interview.
After the fact she said, quotethe most important thing I
learned is just to stay alive.
You keep living day to day,looking for food and water,
never knowing when you mighthave to run for your life.
Right Quote, wow.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
I couldn't imagine having to like think that way,
as at that age, you know, it'sjust, I mean, she's only a year
older than me, younger than me,excuse me, um.
So it's like, excuse me, um, soit's like I was right there
with her, but in a completelydifferent fucking situation.
Obviously, growing up in thestates, I know so I couldn't
imagine being that age andhaving to think that that way.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
That's just wild and it's sad that a kid who can't
even grow up wow so the the slowyugoslav wars was a conflict
where yesterday's next doorneighbor could be today's mortal
(38:40):
enemy.
Right, it was just.
It's purely ethnic identity andit just a flip of a switch
which is too bad.
All of a sudden, we're againsteach other.
Yeah, former friends foundthemselves divided by these
stupid invisible lines that noone said.
Hey, you have to fight so andso?
No, you don't.
(39:00):
You don't have to, you'rechoosing to.
They were just basically told to, so one observer noted,
poisonous politics ended upquoting, dividing friends,
neighbors and even families bytheir ethnic or religious
affiliation, and quote in multiethnic Bosnia, countless mixed
(39:21):
families were left torn, onecousin in a Bosnian army,
another cousin in the Serb army,literally shooting at each
other.
Isn't that wild?
It's crazy.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Because you basically thought you had to, but you
really didn't Not even so muchtold you you had to.
It's just like well, I'm onthis side, so I got to do this.
You don't, but okay.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
Bosnia had three factions Serb nationals wanted
to carve out a greater SerbiaOkay Okay.
And they were willing tobesiege all these cities and
villages to do it Right.
Then there were Croatnationalists that wanted a
greater Croatia Croat just Inparts of Bosnia Well sure.
(40:12):
And there's Bosniak Muslims whowere basically caught in the
middle, fighting formulti-ethnic Bosnia Right Okay.
These alliances shifted likesome weird soap opera.
Plot Soap opera, but theBosniaks and the Crotes,
(40:34):
initially allies against theSerbs, ended up fighting each
other for about a year and thenthey're like let's not do that.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Let's not do that.
Let's not do that yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
So it was like they couldn't even make up like who
the enemy was.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
Right yeah, no kidding.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
So the Sarahavians, saravios, saravians, sarahavos,
sarahavos.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
It sounds like Navajos.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
Sarahavos.
It sounds like navajossarahavos.
They actually developed somekind of weird dark humor during
all of this as like a copingmechanism.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
Well, I mean, you've known me for a while.
I typically use dark humor allthe time, especially in this.
I've never been in this setting, but you know what I mean like
something you wouldn't, youshouldn't do it in, but you do,
yeah, because it just it's acoping thing.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
So, yeah, I get that so they, they kind of thought it
in the way of if we don't laugh, we're going to cry.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
Yeah, sure.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
Yeah, so there was one example of the Miss Besieged
Sarah Hayvo Beauty Pageant heldin a basement in May of 1993.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
While shells fell outside, a group of Sarah
Hayvian women organized afull-on beauty contest
underground, complete with anaudience of locals, of un
peacekeepers, of journalistspacked into like a makeshift
bunker turned ballroom that'sfucked up, wow the contestants
(42:20):
dolled up as best they couldwith a little mascara and maybe
a little rouge and paraded tocheers and flashlight spotlights
okay and, at the end, thewinner, who was a 17 year old.
They had a handwritten bannerfor the cameras because there
were journalists there, yeah,and it read don't let them kill
(42:42):
us, oh shit I mean, I bet theyreally didn't want to die.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
No, but isn't it sad you had to write that on a
fucking sign?
Speaker 1 (42:50):
good lord, that's wild so there is a u2 song, the
band u2 I'm very familiar somepeople might not be do you know
where they're from?
Milwaukee what the fuck I don'tknow you when you ask me.
Do you know where they're from?
It's probably somewhere closeto us ireland okay.
Well, they have a song calledmiss sarajevo, sarajevo miss
(43:14):
sarajevo.
Speaker 2 (43:17):
Who's the singer?
Dave matthews bono, davematthews.
He has his own band.
Yeah, it's the dave matthewsband uh.
Speaker 1 (43:28):
Sarajevians often joked about the Unporfor, the,
what, the Unprofor, unprofor.
They were the United NationsProtection Force.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
Oh Okay.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
The Peacekeepers who had the bright blue helmets.
They actually nicknamed theSmurfs.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
Did they have a pop of Smurf and a Smurfette?
Speaker 1 (43:54):
They nicknamed the Smurfs, yes, because of their
blue helmets, but also becausethey were small in number and
they were kind of useless.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
Smurfs are not useless.
Brainy Smurf knew a lot of shit.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
One joke went around that a un soldier's to-do list
and sarajevo said number oneduck incoming fire yep number
two hand out food okay numberthree take a coffee break.
Coffee break.
Number four get yelled at bylocals for not stopping the war.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
I mean okay.
I mean you can't blame them forwanting the war to stop.
So all right, wow, okay.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
So it wasn't until late 1995 that decisive action
was starting to take place.
It's kind of crazy how longit's lasted, but yeah, no
kidding um, it's kind of crazyhow long it's lasted, but yeah,
no kidding, um zlata does kindof note deliveries of the
humanitarian aid and gratitude.
Um, she knew enough to writeabout politics in the situation,
(45:02):
but she didn't quite understandpolitics right well, no, I mean
, I shit, I don't yeah a lot ofpeople don't understand politics
.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
It's just how the, with all the fucking nuance and
everything that goes on with itand all the tomfoolery that also
all those fucking people do,it's like, how can you
understand it?
Yeah, unless you're in it.
Yeah, and I'm.
I know I'm speaking verygenerally and I'm talking about
myself, not other people.
Some people might have a handleon it.
Speaker 1 (45:31):
I fucking don't so zlata said later after this
whole thing she says, quotethere is no hope for anyone,
because the politicians ruinedwhat had been a model place for
all different people to livetogether there you go but
sarajevo's spirit wasn't brokenFuck no.
(45:53):
Under siege the city had thisbooming underground culture.
They had secret schools,concerts by candlelight and even
like these little satiricaltheaters which would kind of
make fun at the wartimeabsurdities.
Parents tried to shield theirkids from the hate.
In the multi-ethnic familiesthey taught children to be very
(46:18):
proud of who they are, whattheir heritage is, even as
extremists outside couldliterally kill them for it.
Speaker 2 (46:26):
It's just so sad they had to go through this.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (46:29):
So of course, it's impossible to talk about Zlata's
diary and not mention AnneFrank in her diary.
Speaker 2 (46:36):
Well, I mean she was inspired by it.
Speaker 1 (46:38):
There have been comparisons made between the two
.
Okay, Like they're both writersin their diary.
They're both young, they'reboth hiding.
They both named their diary.
They're both young, they'reboth hiding um.
Speaker 2 (46:54):
They both named their diary.
Do you, do you remember or didyou come across what anne frank
named her diary?
I guess kitty, kitty, I don't.
I'm sorry if you said thatearlier no, I didn't okay, I
read she did not have kitty.
Oh, as part of the diary.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
I don't know why they would remove that out of the
publication.
Yeah, that's weird, but heractual diary had dear kitty oh,
that's odd, though, yeah I don'tknow why, my version Anyway.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
I was just curious and I'm glad that was part of
your research, or at leastmemory.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
Yeah, but both diaries kind of chronicled this
loss of childhood in a senseright.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
Yeah, Sorry.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
I had to stretch my back is killing me.
But at one point Zlata does say, quote Some people compare me
with Anne Frank.
That frightens me, mimi, Idon't want to suffer her fate.
Speaker 2 (47:56):
End quote.
So why did people compare her?
Just because she wrote in adiary?
That's literally it.
She wrote in a diary duringwartime as a child and so people
like, hey, anne Frank did that.
Yeah, okay, gotcha, gotcha.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
So Zlata's personal war kind of ended around 1993,
so the war went on to 95 okaybut zlata's kind of ended around
93 is that when she expanded,not just she was um evacuated oh
from sarajevo with the help ofthe united nations, gotcha um.
By then she was about 13 yearsold and she had filled her diary
(48:32):
with two years worth of thesewartime memories well, yeah,
fuck that's.
That's a long fucking time thefighting was still raging, but
foreign journalists andhumanitarian groups had found
out about zlata's writings.
Speaker 2 (48:46):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
And so parts of her diary were published.
Speaker 2 (48:53):
Without her knowledge .
No, okay, they got herpermission.
I'm just making sure, becausethat would be a real dick move.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
They printed about 45 pages to raise awareness for
UNICEF.
Speaker 2 (49:05):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (49:07):
And reporters would visit Zlata's family.
That's wild Dodging snipers toget there, essentially to
interview her.
Speaker 2 (49:15):
That is fucking dedication.
Speaker 1 (49:17):
There was a French humanitarian group that arranged
for Zlata and her family to getout.
Okay, so they got them out ontoa UN plane bound straight for
Paris just before Christmas in93.
Okay, a un plane bound straightfor paris just before christmas
in 93.
Okay, um, she did have to leavebehind her grandparents, which
she would try to visit when shewas able to.
(49:37):
Right, they didn't live too faraway, but far enough that it's.
It was unsafe to go often,gotcha, she managed to grab her
teddy bears in her diary oh, inher flea vesper would definitely
grab her stuffies.
Yeah, yeah, she calls them so soin paris um her diary was
published in france, it becamean instant bestseller.
(49:59):
Stop it, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (50:00):
I'm sorry I just need more oxygen to the brain she
became an instant bestseller.
Speaker 1 (50:07):
It topped france's non-fiction charts and
publishing rights um weresnapped, snatched up by other
publishers in a dozen countriesokay so when zlata's diary came
out, in what I thought, you wereyawning again no, I'm just
sorry, we're almost done I getthat and I'm not.
(50:30):
I'm not complaining, I'm notsaying anything, I just I need
to stand up we're almost at Iknow, okay, so we got this
zlata's diary came out inenglish in 94 okay um zlata did
a press tour, media interviewsand she she basically wanted to
(50:51):
publish this.
Speaker 2 (50:52):
Right.
Speaker 1 (50:54):
So she could help the children of Sarajevo.
Sarajevo, yes, sorry.
After a year in Paris, zlata'sfamily moved to Dublin, ireland.
Hey, where are you two from?
Zlata grew up to become a humanrights activist and author okay
she eventually graduated fromuniversity.
(51:16):
She studied at oxford and thedublin's trinity college.
Look at her go.
Zlata's diary itself remains uma widely read memoir.
Okay that is assigned inschools.
What's the?
Speaker 2 (51:29):
name of it.
Speaker 1 (51:30):
Zlata's Diary.
Speaker 2 (51:31):
That's literally all it's called.
I've never heard of this, but Ialso.
Again, I was, like I said, I'ma year older than her, so I
suppose by the time it wouldhave gotten to schools or stuff,
I was out of that shit, or pastwhatever age I guess, but okay.
Speaker 1 (51:50):
So the Sarajevo that was left behind was slowly
rebuilt.
Okay, the siege was lifted inFebruary of 96.
Wow.
Speaker 2 (52:01):
Jesus Christ.
Speaker 1 (52:02):
Over 10,000 people died in Sarajevo alone.
Right 1,600 of them werechildren.
Fuck that's a lot.
Right, 1,600 of them werechildren Fuck that's a lot.
They reopened schools, theaters, cafes and tried to knit all
these multicultural familiesback together.
Sure, bosnia and Herzegovina isat peace, thank God.
(52:25):
What's that?
The war's aftermath is still alittle bit complicated.
Um, there were war crime trialsoh boy um.
But there is organizations likethe war childhood museum in
sarajevo, sarajevo, which nowpreserve the memories of the
(52:46):
children who endured theconflict and who, yeah, made it
through that shit so war in thiscase was not just about the
generals and the battles.
It was about families coweringin basements, right kids riding
by candlelight, friends sayinggoodbye at funerals.
Ethnic hatred turned neighborsinto targets and international
(53:11):
politics turned a local crisisinto years of suffering Wild.
Speaker 2 (53:16):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (53:16):
One of Zlata's own diary entries near the end of
her book captures kind of abittersweet note as she prepares
to leave her town.
Okay, she addresses her diaryone last time and she wills for
hope and for peace and toprotect her friends that she had
to leave behind that's just sosad because, like, having to
(53:38):
leave your friends behind likethey did is just like I don't
know.
Speaker 2 (53:43):
It's hard for me to grasp it because I've never had
to go through anything anywhereremotely similar.
Yeah, but leaving friendsbehind like that and shit is
just fucking wild.
Speaker 1 (53:51):
Yeah, because of the war-torn people yeah I don't
know so yugoslavia officiallydissolved, yeah, on june 5th
2006.
Wow, not until then.
Like I knew of yugoslavia, sodo I I.
And now it's not even a thinganymore no, and it's funny
(54:11):
because I don't.
Speaker 2 (54:15):
I guess I don't know the time frame in my in my life,
but yeah, I always knew aboutyugoslavia, yugoslavia, and then
now there's no.
I remember that vaguely, notwell, but you know, and that's
why I knew, likebosnia-herzegovina and sarajevo
and all that.
But yeah, I think I mean it wasyears after that fact, but this
(54:37):
is also many years ago.
Now I'm like yugoslavia is nota thing anymore.
Speaker 1 (54:42):
Yeah, it's like holy fuck so when montenegro, which
is another little republic,declared its independence, that
was around 2006, okay, and iteffectively ended the state
union of serbia and montenegro,which was part of the federal
republic of yugoslavia, rightyeah so they were the last ones
(55:03):
to be like okay, we want to beindependent too.
Speaker 2 (55:05):
So now there is no yugoslavia so that was like the
last thread holding on toYugoslavia.
Yes, exactly yes, wow.
Speaker 1 (55:12):
So that is the story of Zlata and the Yugoslav war in
the early 90s.
You made it through.
Speaker 2 (55:22):
I'm sorry, I'm really warm it's really warm up here.
I don't know why it's so warmup here.
Right now it's very warm andthat does not bode well for
Bradley.
When I get warm, I get tiredand I fucking shut down and I
hate that.
So I'm sorry.
It's okay it wasn't because Iwasn't interested.
(55:43):
I'm sorry about the occasionalyawn.
It's okay, it is really.
Why is it so warm up here?
I don't know.
It's okay, it is really.
Why is it so warm up here?
Seriously, but anyways, okay,no, that is.
Speaker 1 (55:54):
It's a sad story.
Speaker 2 (55:55):
It is a sad story and that's really on track for our
brand.
Speaker 1 (55:57):
So I mean I was looking up happy stories earlier
I was like no, that one sucks.
No, that one sucks.
Speaker 2 (56:07):
Happy story Yugoslavia breaking up.
Speaker 1 (56:11):
Okay, okay, last thoughts on Pig Farmer.
Speaker 2 (56:16):
I liked it I do too.
Speaker 1 (56:17):
I like it.
Speaker 2 (56:18):
It's a pale ale, it's not like a.
It's a pale ale that youactually can get behind, because
, again, it's not super paleale-y.
Yeah, not super pale aly yeahit's maybe a bit more than like
the founders of what you likethe session, but it's not a ton
yeah, no.
I really enjoyed it, though Ican't recall when I used to sell
(56:41):
this, if I've ever had this one, but whether I did.
I forgot and I apologize, but Ireally like it it's really good
.
I would definitely have somedeusterbacks.
Pig's Pig Farmer again, mm-hmm.
So maybe we should go there oneof these days again when you
come to visit.
Sure, it's not that far fromwhere I live and they got yeah,
it's cool with the barn andstuff and so on, whatever.
(57:03):
But yeah, I really like it.
It's not bad at all.
Speaker 1 (57:07):
Awesome.
Speaker 2 (57:07):
I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Speaker 1 (57:09):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (57:10):
Well.
I suppose, All right, buffoons.
That's it for today's episode.
Speaker 1 (57:15):
Buckle up, because we've got another historical
adventure waiting for you.
Next time Feeling hungry formore buffoonery, or maybe you
have a burning question or awild historical theory for us to
explore.
Speaker 2 (57:27):
Hit us up on social media.
We're History Buffoons Podcaston YouTube X, instagram and
Facebook.
You can also email us athistorybuffoonspodcast at
gmailcom.
We are Bradley and Kate.
Music by Corey Akers.
Speaker 1 (57:41):
Follow us wherever you get your podcasts and turn
those notifications on to stayin the loop.
Speaker 2 (57:46):
Until next time, stay curious and don't forget to
rate and review us.
Speaker 1 (57:49):
Remember, the buffoonery never stops.
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