March 19, 2026 • 39 mins
Author Emily Inouye Huey takes us from the shock of Americans nationwide heard about Pearl Harbor to the heartbreak of tens of thousands of Japanese Americans being forced from their homes and into concentration camps.
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SPEAKER_01 (00:01):
This is History for the Reckoning, a podcast that
dives deep into the historythat's hard to hear but critical
to understand.
Season one, AmericanConcentration Camps.
The story of World War IIJapanese Incarceration.
Welcome to episode two of thepodcast.
Last time we learned about thetens of thousands of Japanese
(00:22):
and Japanese Americans who madethe West Coast home despite
steep racism before World WarII.
Today we'll cover the periodbetween Pearl Harbor and the
forced removal of the West CoastJapanese to concentration camps.
Helping us learn this history,we're joined today by Emily
Inoue Huey.
Emily is an author whose work inboth fiction and nonfiction has
dealt closely with this history,particularly her novel Beneath
(00:43):
the Wide Silk Sky, that was setentirely in this period.
Emily, thank you so much forjoining me today.
SPEAKER_00 (00:49):
Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_01 (00:51):
So starting with December 7th, the day that we'll
live in infinity, what was theexperience from your research or
family stories?
What was it like to hear thisnews in the Japanese-American
community, particularly thatPearl Harbor had been bombed?
SPEAKER_00 (01:04):
Oh, I think mostly, I mean, you know, you can't say
one particular response for awhole group like this, but I
think overwhelmingly it soundslike it was shock, just shock.
There had been rumors, Ibelieve.
There had even been somenewspaper editorials about how
something like this was going tohappen, you know, um, but no one
really thought it would.
(01:24):
And especially the JapaneseAmericans really didn't think
this was coming.
Um, I remember interviewing aman who lived here in Utah.
I live in Utah, um, here inUtah, and he just said he
couldn't believe that hisfamily, that his family's
country, so he's JapaneseAmerican, he couldn't believe
his family's country would havebombed his country.
(01:45):
You know, just that idea of itit just seemed unbelievable, I
believe.
SPEAKER_01 (01:50):
Yeah.
So I understand that directlyafter Pearl Harbor bombing, the
US government was already ataction and arresting people.
So yeah, tell us what happenedimmediately after Pearl Harbor
within the Japanese community.
SPEAKER_00 (02:03):
Well, you know, um for the time, news traveled
incredibly fast.
Like I think that within lessthan an hour, there were news
reports of this happening.
When you think about that, atthat time, the way
communication, everything was bytelegram, you know, um, it was
amazing that things were comingout that quickly.
Radio broadcasts were coming outum that soon.
(02:24):
And then going right back toregular programming.
Um yeah, uh within 24 hours ofPearl Harper's bombing, over 700
men had been um arrested.
They, these FBI agents would goout and they would um they would
go to the members of thecommunity who were leaders.
(02:44):
So these are people likebankers, reverends, um teachers,
Japanese language teachersespecially.
Okay.
All of these people would beIsei, which means first
generation, right?
These these men who were thefirst to come over from their um
from Japan.
SPEAKER_01 (02:57):
But if they were not American citizens.
SPEAKER_00 (03:01):
But if you were here in 1941, because of laws that
had been passed, anti-Japaneseimmigration laws, by 1941, it
means you've been here at likethree decades at least, right?
If not more.
And so these men had been herefor quite a while, but they were
leaders in thisJapanese-American community, and
um, they would come, usually inpairs of two, wearing these dark
(03:22):
suits and hats, and they wouldtake them.
And um they would take them forquestioning, usually, but then
they wouldn't come back, is ismy understanding standing about
when especially at thebeginning.
And um it was, it was, I think,particularly difficult that um
these women often didn't speakEnglish.
(03:43):
You know, they were they werealso usually from Japan, and
their their husbands had beengoing out into the world and
doing things, but they'd mostlybeen staying at home.
And so these women were left athome with these children, not
knowing where these fatherswere.
Some for, you know, weeks andmonths, some for even years.
I mean, it there are people whodidn't know where their father
was until after the end of thewar.
So it was it was particularlytraumatic, I think.
unknown (04:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (04:08):
Yeah.
And you mentioned that thesewere leaders in the community.
So the American government hasjust snatched up all of these
community leaders.
So who fills that void?
Where does the leadership comefrom after this?
SPEAKER_00 (04:18):
Oh, you know, um, yeah, especially in a Japanese
community.
I don't know if you're familiarwith Japanese culture, but
there's a huge deference to theelderly, right?
They are, you know, the bosses.
Um, and so now they're these menhave been snatched, um, and
particularly those who areleaders.
And so it kind of leaves thisvacuum.
(04:40):
And um sort of the secondgeneration we called the Nisei,
they sort of kind of step up andfill that role.
SPEAKER_01 (04:47):
Um, these are the ones who are American citizens,
the first born here.
SPEAKER_00 (04:50):
Yeah.
So the their parents came fromJapan, then they were born here.
And so because they're bornhere, they're citizens.
Um, and mostly, you know, theyspeak English, maybe speak some
Japanese, but mostly speakEnglish, you know, um, uh it's a
it's a different generation forsure.
And and my understanding is theWRA or the re war relocation
(05:12):
authority actually really kindof um, oh, what's the right
word?
Encouraged the JACL, which was asocial club, the Japanese
American Citizens League.
They really encouraged the JACLto kind of take that role.
Um and they did for the courseof through the course of the,
you know, this time and thenalso through the incarceration,
the JACL kind of took that role.
SPEAKER_01 (05:34):
Okay, so it's the second generation, the NISAI
that are old enough to fill theleadership void, but
specifically this organization,the JACL, the Japanese American
Citizens League.
SPEAKER_00 (05:43):
Yeah, that that eventually came.
You know, at the beginning, Ithink it was just people
helping, you know, NISA justhelping in general.
But eventually in the camps, Ithink they even had a more
significant role.
unknown (05:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (05:56):
Yeah.
So what was the position of theJACL?
You said the government hadencouraged the government as a
the War Relocation Authority,which was an arm of the
government, had encouraged theJCL or at least the NISAI to
step up.
So what was their relationshipwith the government after this
encouragement?
SPEAKER_00 (06:12):
I mean, I don't think they were ever officially
part of the government orworking for the government, but
um they were sort of like, youknow, there are in different
places chances for there to beblock captains and things like
that.
And often those two roles wenthand in hand.
Um, and I would say that JACL, Ithink some of the leaders talked
about it, and they reallydecided that um the best thing
(06:33):
they could do was show theirloyalty to this country and show
how American they were.
And so it was really truly weare going to cooperate, we are
going to, you know, do whatsacrifice what we have to to
help our country in this timethat's really difficult for our
country.
Um, it really was a time when umI just don't think we've seen
(06:55):
anything quite like this interms of the cooperation by the
group that's being oppressed.
SPEAKER_01 (07:00):
Yeah, it is really interesting because my
generation comes from stories ofthe civil rights movement among
the black community, thisassumption that if the
government tries to overstep,you will push back.
But I mean, just a differentmindset, like you're saying,
like, oh, Pearl Harbor had justhappened.
There was a lot of anti-Japanesepropaganda, so it's horrible.
But I guess at least a littlebit understandable how they got
(07:20):
there.
SPEAKER_00 (07:21):
Yeah.
And I think um, you know, I'vethought about this a lot.
You know, what is it thatcreated this?
And I think in some ways, it's avestige of their heritage,
right?
Like um in Japan, if you evergo, even today, you know, when
we there were the tsunamis justa few years ago, um, people do
not loot, people do not riot,people cooperate.
(07:42):
And if they need to walk 16miles to get home, then they
walk 16 miles to get home.
You know, things like that.
There um there is really a senseof honor, I think, but also um a
sense of the community over theindividual.
I think America tends to be kindof radically different than
that.
You know, it's individualism onsteroids.
Um, and so I think maybe thatmaybe opened the um door for
(08:06):
something like this.
Um, I'm not sure exactly.
But yeah, that is the decisionthat was made by the by the
group.
SPEAKER_01 (08:14):
So the initial response of the government had
been, let's round up thecommunity leaders.
Uh, we know this ends with theincarceration of over 120,000
people, but what were the thefirst steps that the government
and the military took,particularly to the West Coast
Japanese?
SPEAKER_00 (08:30):
Um well, I know that before before there's any you
know forcible relocations, um,we have things like the curfew.
So they set a curfew for allItalians, Germans, and Japanese
who were aliens, but also forall Japanese Americans.
That's the only group that italso applied to the citizens,
(08:53):
right?
SPEAKER_01 (08:54):
Oh geez.
SPEAKER_00 (08:54):
So Japanese Americans, Japanese, Italians,
Germans.
They were all um banned fromcertain areas, and then they had
a curfew generally from about 8p.m.
to 6 a.m.
You know, as things went along,uh, that different areas were a
little bit different, but thatwas generally the curfew.
And then they were also put on afive mile travel radius, um, uh,
(09:16):
what's the right word?
Restriction.
So they could only they couldonly travel within five miles.
Um they couldn't go further thanthat.
SPEAKER_01 (09:23):
Oh, so school or work is five and a half miles
away, tough luck.
SPEAKER_00 (09:26):
Yeah, you're not, yeah, you're not allowed.
So um, that was one of the umbig things that came out first.
They also were required toreport and um turn in things
like guns, cameras, um, radios.
Sometimes like obviously two-wayradios were considered a risk
(09:47):
because they thought that theywould um uh maybe communicate
with the enemy, but also, youknow, sometimes radios in
general.
I mean, um, yeah, there were alot of things like that that
they were supposed to turn in.
Um yeah, and it was just kind ofa time of starting to see that
things were really changing.
Um, that this wasn't just Idon't know, the reasonable
(10:12):
response that they thought itmight be.
SPEAKER_01 (10:14):
Yeah.
So from these interviews you'vedone or any family stories
research, what was the feelingsin the community at this point?
The leaders are telling themcomply, do whatever the
government asks you to do, butevery individual has their own
feelings.
SPEAKER_00 (10:26):
Yes.
And I think the responses areacross the whole board, right?
I've heard people who said, youknow, they were really angry.
I've had people who were soshocked, but I've also heard
people who were, you know,really committed to just doing
whatever they said.
Um, so I've I've heard a lot ofdifferent responses on this.
Um my feeling is that it wasjust an incredibly hard time.
(10:49):
And there were no right answers,you know.
Um yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (10:54):
Absolutely.
So one of the some of thestories that I've heard are
these terrifying, or I shouldsay, these very sad stories of
people feeling like I need toprove how American I am to the
extreme, to feeling like I needto destroy any semblance of
Japanese-ness within my home.
I wonder if you can share any ofthose stories.
SPEAKER_00 (11:12):
Yeah, lots of lots of individuals um threw away,
like for instance, if they hadweapons.
So many people came here withsamurai swords.
Um you know, it's like it's ait's uh something that's passed
down from generation togeneration.
It's this heirloom.
They're old, but they're aweapon and they're very
Japanese.
(11:32):
And so people would uh lots ofpeople would bury those or throw
them away um into water.
Um, I've heard about there arelots of stories, particularly in
the big cities, of people, youknow, in in like Japan towns,
where they'd get a big bonfireand they'd all throw in their
kimonos or photos that mighthave um made them, you know,
(11:54):
just showed how close they were,photos and letters that showed
how close they were to peoplewho lived in Japan.
Oh um it's it's really sadbecause there's kind of an
erasure that comes from that,right?
In terms cultural erasure.
Um, but yeah, there were peoplewere willing to give up a lot to
try to seem American, to try tofit in, to try to not seem like
(12:15):
a threat.
SPEAKER_01 (12:16):
Yeah.
Ultimately we know it wasineffective.
The government was already setin motion what they were going
to do.
So February 19th, 1942 isExecutive Order 9066 signed by
President Roosevelt.
Can you tell us a little bitabout that and how the community
felt when it happened?
SPEAKER_00 (12:32):
Um, well, I mean, it says that you can exclude people
from certain areas, right?
That's the big overall archingidea in here in this.
And at the time, I don't thinkpeople were quite sure exactly
what areas, exactly what itwould mean.
SPEAKER_01 (12:48):
Um And it wasn't even specific about which
people.
So yeah, you know, didn't evensay which people, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (12:53):
But it was like a very scary moment.
I think it's a moment when somepeople are like, oh, something's
going to happen.
Um, I've read in some of mygrandfather's journals, like
they started really speculatingwhat's coming.
Um yeah, I mean, what wouldhappen is these people would
generally come outside and therewould be in these Japanese
communities, um, they would comeoutside and it would be
(13:15):
somewhere on a fence post or ona um a uh light post or
something like that.
You know, it would just be therefor them to see and it would
just be like, what does thismean?
What what's going to happen?
You know, it was kind of veryscary.
SPEAKER_01 (13:30):
Oh, you mean there were notices like of the
executive order or notices fromthe government?
SPEAKER_00 (13:34):
Notices of the executive order.
SPEAKER_01 (13:36):
Okay.
Yeah.
So that the government made sureeveryone was aware.
unknown (13:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (13:41):
What was the reaction of the American people
at this point?
Pearl Harbor being so fresh.
And from our last episode, welearned many Americans had never
even met a Japanese person.
SPEAKER_00 (13:52):
Yeah, I mean I can only go off the polls at the
time, but there was a poll thatsaid that 93% of Americans
thought that this was a goodidea, specifically in regards to
Japanese aliens.
So people who weren't born here,93% of Americans agreed that it
was a good idea.
Only 7%.
(14:12):
Well, actually, I think it waseven less than that, who said
they thought it was a bad idea.
And then there were it was asmall percentage that was
undecided.
And then if you look at um foryou know Japanese Americans who
were citizens, people who wereborn in this country, it was
still over 50% that agreed thatthis was a great idea.
So, I mean, this is in March of1942.
(14:34):
So uh I would say overwhelmingres uh overwhelming support from
the American public at thistime.
Um and if you think about that,it's kind of uh shocking and
eye-opening.
Um, because it almost throughoutmost of my life, you know,
whenever this has come up in ahistory class or um, you know,
(14:56):
in conversation of any kind, umpeople overwhelmingly have
thought this is one of the umthe dark moments of our history
in this country.
But 93% thought it was a goodidea.
SPEAKER_01 (15:10):
I mean, that that just tells you what specifically
a good idea to remove, even lockup this entire group of people.
SPEAKER_00 (15:16):
Yeah.
So I think um it shows you whatlike anger, um, war, um,
propaganda, what all thosethings can sort of convince you
of in times like this.
SPEAKER_01 (15:31):
Yeah, you mentioned propaganda.
What was the propaganda of thetime in relation to the Japanese
that were living in America?
SPEAKER_00 (15:37):
Oh, it was so ugly.
I mean, it's just full of stuffabout um them as being almost
inhuman.
You know, they're they're alwaysportrayed with these teeth that
look like rat teeth, and youknow, they're portrayed as being
almost like um oh rodents, Isuppose.
And and in terms of just thenumber of them too and how
(15:58):
they're coming for you and uhdirtness, just all these
different elements are broughtup in if you look at this, the
propaganda of the time.
And and definitely that they'rea threat that you know we all
have to unite to stomp them out.
By the end of World War II, 13%of Americans were in favor of of
exterminating all the Japanese.
I mean, that's the world.
(16:19):
Yes.
This is like a this is just aterrible, terrible.
SPEAKER_01 (16:23):
13% are like, let's genocide this entire crazy.
SPEAKER_00 (16:26):
Yeah.
Well, and and you know, theyhave these atomic bombs.
13% of Americans thought thatwas a great idea just to kill
them all.
It's it's just a sign of howmuch hate can just infest a
community.
SPEAKER_01 (16:38):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_00 (16:39):
Um, obviously they're at war.
They're extenuatingcircumstances, but you'd hope
that you'd never be in that 13%,you know?
Um so yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (16:48):
The only parallel within my lifetime has been
directly after 9-11 withfeelings within this country
about uh specifically ArabAmericans, but all practitioners
of Islam.
And it was an uncertain time formany of those people who felt
like they were under threat.
And thank goodness they did nothave this large national
response.
But certainly the propaganda,the individual feelings, it's
(17:10):
horrible.
And it still happens today.
SPEAKER_00 (17:12):
Yeah, Norm Mineta, who was a Japanese American who
was in this um in thissituation, he was one of those
incarcerated.
He worked for um George Bush atthe time.
And he always talked about howwhen 9-11 happened, George Bush
turned to him and said, We won'tlet what happened to you happen
again.
You know, I don't know how wellthose promises were kept and
(17:33):
things.
Um, that's something that lotsof people debate.
But um I do think, you know, itwould be great if we could learn
from our mistakes.
SPEAKER_01 (17:42):
Yeah.
So I wonder if uh just topersonalize this history, uh, up
to this point, uh, if you haveany of the family stories or
just some of the research, somepersonal stories of the
experiences during this timeperiod, Pearl Harbor before the
first even voluntary removals.
SPEAKER_00 (17:56):
The FBI actually came to take away my
great-grandfather.
Um, he was one of those leadersin the community, Esei, first
generation, who they came totake.
And they took him down forquestioning to um to the city
center.
And um kind of an amazing thinghappened, which was that, you
know, my uncle particularly, whowas a who was uh American
(18:21):
citizen, he had a lot ofcontacts and he knew people
really well.
And my grandfather, mygreat-grandfather also knew
people in that area.
And these people who had workedwith him, who had brokered
produce with him, things likethat, they ended up going down
to the city center.
They found where these FBIagents were questioning him and
taking these people.
(18:41):
And um, they actually stood upfor him and said, Hey, we know
this guy, we know he's not adanger, we know he's not a
threat.
And, you know, almostunbelievably, the FBI agents
listened and they let him comehome.
And it didn't mean that hedidn't avoided incarceration
completely, but he was able tostay with his family, which
changed the course of myfamily's lives, you know.
(19:01):
Um, so I think that's a reallygood example of like what
sometimes speaking out, youknow, how we can support others,
how we can speak out for others.
I don't know that anyone thoughtthey had a really good chance of
getting him out, but they theydid it.
And that's that's a pretty neatthing.
And for some reason, that thatgreat grandfather, he lived
right near Stamford campus.
(19:21):
I don't know why, but for somereason that um that group did a
lot for my family.
They did a lot to support themthrough that time.
Um yeah, I don't know why.
SPEAKER_01 (19:31):
Yeah, that's great for sometimes there are people
doing the right thing even ifthe predominant feeling is to do
what we now consider to be thewrong thing.
SPEAKER_00 (19:39):
Yeah, I think so.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (19:41):
So uh as removal starts, there's two parts.
There's the Japanese were forcedto be removed and then they were
incarcerated.
How did the removal start?
How did they, I guess, yeah,first off, how did they find out
this was even going to happen?
They learned about thatexecutive order, but when did
the specifics and how did thespecifics start coming down?
SPEAKER_00 (20:00):
They would have new bulletins that would come.
Um, and the bulletins would say,this is the date that you need
to be ready, you'll be taken,this is where you need to
report.
Um and by and large, mostJapanese people, Japanese
Americans, did what they weretold.
You know, they they theyreported on the day they were
supposed to.
There were some who uh resisted,and their stories are really
(20:21):
interesting.
Um, but most of them evacuated.
One thing that we didn't talkabout yet was that there was a
period, a very short period,where they were told you can
remove yourself voluntarily,right?
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (20:35):
Um so I think Okay, so they knew that there was
going to be the governmentforcing you to move, but they
said, hey, if you want to, youcan just leave.
SPEAKER_00 (20:42):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (20:43):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (20:43):
Well, I don't even know if they knew they'd be
removed, but they knew they weresupposedly banned from there
were these areas that they couldbe excluded from, right?
So January 19th, the exclusionorder, FDR sent uh signs it.
And then like, mm-hmm I think bythe end of that month, uh
General DeWitt had come out andsaid, you know, if you want to
here's some zones.
(21:03):
If you want to get out now, getout.
But I would say it was less thana month later that they realized
that wasn't really going towork.
Um if you think about it.
SPEAKER_01 (21:13):
Some people were allowed, I mean, were allowed
to, some were encouraged toleave of their own accord.
How many took up the call andwhat kinds of people were even
able to?
SPEAKER_00 (21:21):
I don't have numbers on that.
Um, but if you think about thefact that they'd shut uh one
thing we didn't talk about wasafter um Pearl Harbor, they'd
shut down all their banks.
So there was no money.
You know, how do you go find anew apartment or home without
money?
So there's all the Japanesebanks have been closed.
Um, if you think about peoplewho had planted crops, that's
(21:42):
the case in my family.
How do you leave your crops?
Um, you have if you think aboutyou have uh loans out on these
crops, uh, you you have to makea go of it, right?
Um and then one of the biggestproblems was most Japanese
Americans, 90% of JapaneseAmericans, lived on this West
Coast.
Coast, you know, Oregon,Washington, California.
(22:02):
So if you don't, if all theJapanese Americans are there,
they don't have people inlandusually who they who they can go
to, you know, who they can go toto start a new start.
Um, they don't have contacts.
And so pretty quickly it becameclear this was not like a lot of
people were not going to be ableto do this.
And so by a month later, they'vealready actually created a new
(22:27):
law that um people areprohibited from leaving.
They have to stay where they areso that they have track of them,
so that they can keep track ofthem.
And you can't leave withoutmilitary approval, which you
know no one gets.
So um at that point, it became,you know, forced removal to
their assembly centers.
(22:48):
Um, that was really the onlyoption.
SPEAKER_01 (22:51):
So you mentioned that they got these notices that
said, here's your date and timeto report.
Uh what were what were thedetails?
How long did they typicallyhave, or even some specific
stories?
What were they allowed to bringwith them?
What were they told to expect?
SPEAKER_00 (23:06):
Well, so they were generally given about two weeks.
There are there are cases asshort as two days.
Um, but in general, it wasaround two weeks.
There are a few who got a fewmore, three, you know, four.
Um, but that the average was twoweeks.
SPEAKER_01 (23:22):
Um and they can only three weeks from these people
had farms, as you mentioned.
They had loans and obligations,and it was all businesses to
wrap it up.
SPEAKER_00 (23:33):
Yeah.
So, you know, um, they're toldthey can only bring what they
can carry.
So just two suitcases a piece,basically.
Um, and I don't know if you'veever fact for a trip, but that's
that's difficult.
Uh, if you think about um thefact that they had to bring
their own silverware, they hadto bring things to eat off of,
they had to bring bedding, theyhad to bring coats or anything
(23:55):
that they wanted to wear.
SPEAKER_01 (23:56):
You know, as oh, so the camps eventually did have
bedding, silverware, but you'resaying they just didn't know.
SPEAKER_00 (24:02):
They brought their own bedding.
Okay.
Mostly.
I mean, I think once they got tocertain places, they could have
like, you know, the kind ofthose blankets that um they give
soldiers and things like that.
I've seen some of those inpictures from certain uh, you
know, from in the camps, butthey didn't know what they would
have.
And so they brought everythingthey thought they might need.
And they weren't given likemattresses and stuff when they
(24:24):
first got to the assemblycenters.
They had to, they were given umsacks that they would put straw
into, and that would be theirbut like they they didn't have
any furniture.
I mean, what they took was whatthey knew they'd have.
And so um, very difficult.
I know in the case of mygrandmother, like they tried to
store all their things in aJapanese uh Buddhist church.
(24:46):
It ended up being burned down,so they lost all of that.
In my grandpa's case, they hadlike these crops that were, they
were going to lose their farmsbecause there was no they they
had taken out loans on seed anddifferent things to run the
crop.
And there was no way now thatthey had to leave it, that they
would um be able to pay backthose loans um or pay their
(25:07):
mortgages, things like that.
And so they would lose theirfarm, but they did have
tractors.
My uncle Henry had tractors,which was a very big deal at the
time.
Um, people still were stillusing horses and carts in some
cases.
So having a mechanized tractorwas a pretty big deal.
And um his neighbors were reallyneat and they said, you know,
we'd we'd love to, you know,hold on to those for you, take
(25:31):
care of them.
And my understanding is that hetold them, well, go ahead and
use them, you know.
Thank you so much for takingcare of them.
Go ahead and use them.
And they said, Don't worry aboutit.
We won't even use them.
They'll be in the same conditionwhen you come back.
And so, you know, there weresome good people.
There were some good peopleduring this time.
SPEAKER_01 (25:47):
So, in the case where you didn't have good
people that were willing tosafeguard your things, uh, I
imagine you'd have to liquidateeverything.
You don't know when you'recoming back, you don't know what
you'd have available to you.
SPEAKER_00 (25:57):
Yeah, you liquidate everything for pennies on the
dollar.
You know, I've heard lots ofstories of people having to sell
their china or their mother'ssewing machines or their pianos
or whatever for nothing, theirhouses for nothing.
Or just leave it there, youknow, just leave it and people
would come in and take it whenthey wanted to.
Um, you know, even even likepets, you know, they just
(26:19):
there's they couldn't bringthem.
If they couldn't find a home forit, they just had to leave it
there and hope something goodwould happen.
SPEAKER_01 (26:25):
Yeah, I guess you say it's selling it for pennies
on the dollar.
I imagine that's because all therest of their community, the
typically white community, wasaware these people were gone in
two weeks.
unknown (26:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (26:35):
So you can demand anything.
SPEAKER_00 (26:38):
Yeah, you can demand anything.
You know that if if you don'ttake it, that it'll be there
later, you know, or if if thisperson doesn't take your dill,
maybe the next person will.
So yeah, there were people whowould even come in and kind of
like just kind of take over likeall this stuff so that it was
like people had businesses basedon this model.
So um, yeah, it was the it was asad time, I think.
SPEAKER_01 (27:02):
Yeah, like looting by a different name.
SPEAKER_00 (27:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (27:05):
So when we get to that end of that typically two
weeks, what was the reportinglike?
Where did they go?
What yeah, what was that daylike?
SPEAKER_00 (27:12):
Yeah.
So I mean, I think uh I think uparound 120,000 people were
eventually incarcerated.
But in this initial roundup, Ithink there were like 98,000.
Um, and if you can imagine, thegovernment doesn't have anywhere
to put 98,000 people.
unknown (27:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:30):
Um, so they um mostly used fairgrounds, places
like, you know, if you thinkabout Charlotte's Webb, the
state fair, um, they had thesestate fairs, places like that.
Um, they had racetracks.
I think total they had around 15official assembly centers plus a
couple like welcome centers orsomething like that.
They they were essentially alsoassembly centers, but they had
(27:52):
people go to these places.
My family ended up at SantaAnita Racetrack and at Puallop
um fairgrounds.
And um my aunt, I remember oneof my aunts telling me that it
was just awful because they sentyou down the same barbed wire uh
chutes that they sent the cowsand the pigs through.
(28:12):
And she just felt like ananimal.
And I guess sometimes peoplewould come down, like people who
are really angry at theJapanese, would come down and
like jeer and point at them andsay ugly things.
But also at the same time, a lotof times friends would come and
they would kind of be there tojust support them as they were
taken.
Um, so two sides of one coin,right?
(28:34):
And um, yeah, then they end upin these assembly centers, which
are essentially livestockhousing units.
And um my aunt again told melike they ended up at this
racetrack.
And so they lived in, I thinkthe family.
So the great grandfather, hiskids, and then their little new
(28:56):
family, because her mom was oneof, let's see, how do I say
this?
So great-grandfather, uncle,aunt, and her parents, and then
all the kids, the four kids,they all lived in two uh horse
dolls.
SPEAKER_01 (29:10):
And um literally horse stalls.
SPEAKER_00 (29:12):
Literally horse stalls, yeah.
Like they had put planks, Iguess, like uh they had put some
sort of like wood on top of thefloor, but there was still
manure under it.
And the walls had beenwhitewashed, but they haven't
been cleaned first.
So, like I remember her tellingme the story of like when it got
hot, the manure would likebubble and um pop the whitewash
(29:35):
on top of it.
And anyway, just awful, awfulconditions.
They had a one-year-old baby.
If you can imagine, there'snowhere to set this baby.
There's no privacy because youknow, horse stalls aren't like
all the way to the ceiling, youknow.
They they have quite a bit ofspace at the top, and so your
neighbors can see in, or youhave to put up some sort of
sheet, or try to find somethingto give yourself any sense of
(29:56):
privacy.
But more than anything, I thinkit's just very dehumanizing.
Yeah, really, really.
SPEAKER_01 (30:04):
Literally dehumanizing, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (30:05):
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (30:07):
So tell us about the assembly centers.
Uh, were these uh we imaginelater when they're in these
large camps in the middle ofnowhere that they're fairly
literally prisons.
They're surrounded by barbedwire.
What was the assembly centerlike before the camps?
SPEAKER_00 (30:20):
You know, I've seen pictures that do have barbed
wire in them.
SPEAKER_01 (30:23):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (30:23):
I don't I haven't researched this particular
thing, but I've seen pictureswhere there's barbed wire in
those around those chutes andthings like that.
There were fences, definitely.
Um, and I imagine that the top,at least, there was barbed wire.
But I do I have heard stories ofpeople like being able to slip
things through the fencessometimes, or people were able
to come visit them.
They the Japanese Americanscouldn't leave, but people could
(30:46):
come visit them in theseassembly centers, which
generally weren't super far fromtheir homes.
Um and uh I mean, I think theywere all in California,
Washington, Oregon.
I think there were some in therewas at least one in Arizona,
too, maybe two.
Um, so they were fairly close towhere they had been taken from.
(31:06):
And so people would sometimescome visit them.
But yeah, there were soldiers,there were guards, there were
guns, there were all thosethings.
Um, yeah.
It was it was a detentioncenter.
You know, some people, somefriends came to visit my family,
and um, they brought with them alemon uh melon because the food
in these places was terrible,you know, it was all like kind
(31:26):
of slop, you know, if you canimagine.
They're feeding these masses.
And apparently, like JapaneseAmericans weren't used to this
food, and they were just gettingsick in you know, mass
quantities.
So anyway, but they they broughtthis melon and when they got
there, the guards, you know,sliced it in half with his
bayonet to make sure that therewas that they weren't trying to
(31:47):
sneak anything to them.
SPEAKER_01 (31:50):
Uh so what was the uh I guess I should ask first,
about how long were people inthese assembly centers before
they ended up in the morelong-term camps?
SPEAKER_00 (31:59):
Yeah, I I think it varied, but for my family it was
about three months.
Okay.
Yeah.
I think it some people long afew months longer, some people.
SPEAKER_01 (32:07):
A semester of school.
SPEAKER_00 (32:08):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So they were there while theywere um building camps, the the
what would eventually be thepermanent camps um around the
country.
SPEAKER_01 (32:19):
So what do you do with three months of time?
Like what did they have to do?
SPEAKER_00 (32:23):
Oh, you know, they didn't, you know, that's one
thing about uh this group.
They they did what they could.
You know, they made it as niceas they could.
They tried to create a school,they tried to make, you know,
things to do.
They um they participated in thewar effort.
Um, you know, they've made netsand um camouflage nets and
(32:44):
things like that um to help withuh the soldiers, help the
soldiers in the war.
Whatever assignment that thearmy would give them, they did.
Um, still trying to prove theirloyalty.
So yeah, they did what theycould with their time.
SPEAKER_01 (32:59):
So this three months comes to an end.
They're told you're being taken.
I guess.
Do you have you ever heard anystories of people being told for
shipping you out?
Or like what was the transitionlike?
SPEAKER_00 (33:10):
Yeah.
So my uncle tells the story.
He says they were told they weregoing go, and they were put on
um trains with the family, butthey he said there weren't any
like great seats or anything.
There weren't, it wasn't like aregular train.
It was more of a, you know,group mass mass relocation kind
of train.
(33:31):
And they had um they had uhwindows on these in these
trains, but they paid theyblacked them out with black
paper.
And they said, Don't open these,don't don't let anyone see in,
don't look out.
And they weren't told how longthey'd be on the train or where
they were going.
And my uncle says he was on thetrain for three days and three
nights, I think.
And um he just remembers, youknow, it's so hard to sleep and
(33:55):
taking turns trying to lie downand things like that.
Um, but they didn't know wherethey were going.
And then at some point, my auntsays that they were stopped
while they were the train wasgetting coal, and a woman came
to the window and um knocked onthe window.
Well, they didn't know it was awoman, though.
It was they just had thisblacked-out window, right?
And someone starts knocking,knocking.
(34:16):
They've been told not to openthem.
They don't open it, they don'topen it, and then finally
someone's like, I can't take itand they open it.
And it ends up being a woman outon the platform, and she has
this basket of clothing, uh,blankets, mittens, scarves,
whatever, you know, and shestarts as soon as the window
opens, she starts putting itthrough the window and she gets
as much in as she can and shesays, Where you're going, it's
(34:37):
cold.
And it turned out after threedays and three nights that they
ended up in Wyoming and it gotvery, very cold, I think in the
negative 30s or something thatfirst winter.
And um, and this family fromCalifornia, that's where my aunt
and uncle were from, they reallyappreciated what she had given
them, um, as you can imagine.
Especially when, you know, thebarracks were like not
(34:57):
insulated.
They had like something calledtar paper on them, which is
about the thickness of a cerealbox.
That's all that was between themand this Wyoming winter.
Um it ended up being very, veryimportant.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (35:07):
Oh, and they're from California.
So even as they brought theirtwo suitcases with everything
they thought they could use,they probably didn't have winter
coats.
SPEAKER_00 (35:14):
Yeah, they didn't have, they didn't have the right
equipment.
Yeah.
So they're very grateful.
SPEAKER_01 (35:19):
So Emily, we've talked about how all of the
Japanese from the West Coastwere being removed.
Uh, how did they determine whowas Japanese?
Or big air quotes here, howJapanese would you have to be
before I thought you areinherently dangerous, you should
be removed.
SPEAKER_00 (35:34):
I think it was 116th.
And um it applied to everyone,whether you are a child, whether
you are an adult, whether you'revery old.
I mean, you know, you look atsome of these pictures, these
kids are one-year-old all theway to up till 90 or
nine-year-olds who can't evenwalk in.
You just think these people arenot threats, but um, it didn't
matter.
It applied to everyone, it evenuh applied to children who'd
(35:56):
been adopted into whitefamilies.
It applied to people who aremarried to people who weren't
Japanese.
And so in those cases, peoplewould have to decide whether to
come with their spouse or theirchildren or send them to camp
and stay out and uh uh justterrible, terrible questions to
have to face, right?
(36:16):
Not knowing how long they'd bein.
So there were, you know, peoplewere like, well, if it's a few
months, then you know, maybe youshould stay and keep the
business going or whatever.
Versus, you know, do we do wesplit up?
Like that's also terrible.
And do I want to let you gosomewhere?
You don't know where you'regoing.
Am I willing to let you gosomewhere you don't we don't
know anything about by yourself?
(36:37):
Like it was just a terrible,terrible decision to have to
make.
SPEAKER_01 (36:40):
As the final bit of the history, uh, from the
stories you've heard or thehistory you've learned, what was
it like stepping off the trainsat these camps?
And I guess start with where didthey find themselves?
What did they experience?
SPEAKER_00 (36:53):
Yeah, so my understanding is, you know,
they'd get out of these trainsand they'd be in the worst
places, you know, all thesecamps, these permanent camps,
the government took land that noone wanted, you know, that they
could get for cheap.
So it was always in a desert ora swamp, uh, mostly desert.
I think there's just one swamp.
Um, but just terrible, terribleplaces, hot, dusty, or cold,
(37:17):
soggy, you know, places.
And my my family ended up atHeart Mountain, Wyoming, which
today is quite beautiful.
But at the time it was justcompletely uncultivated with
dust, you know, and um justnothing around for miles and
miles.
And my grandma told me that whenshe got off the um train, she
(37:38):
just cried because it was justso awful.
And um, and just there was justnothing.
Just it's very, very dusty.
So when you she said when youtake a drink of your coffee or
your milk or whatever, you takea sip, and then by the time you
were ready for the next sip, itwould just be covered with dust
and you'd have to pull that allout and then try again.
(37:59):
Each each each time you took adrink or a spoonful of your soup
or whatever, you'd be fightingthe dust.
Um, and your face would alwaysbe covered in just dust.
So I think I think it was prettydisheartening.
It was really disheartening whenthey got off.
And then, you know, when theysaw the first their first
impression of the camp wasterrible, it wasn't finished.
And so, you know, the thebarracks that they lived in were
(38:22):
completely, you know, unsuitablefor living through winters and
things like that.
It was just kind of a poorlyconstructed shed.
And um, the bathrooms, therewere no partitions between the
toilets or any privacy in theshowers.
And it was just, again,dehumanizing, right?
I think over time they did a lotwith those areas, and I'm sure
(38:45):
you'll interview another guestabout that time period and what
they did to flourish and makethe best of what they had.
But um, I think when they firstgot off, it was pretty
disheartening.
SPEAKER_01 (38:55):
Yeah, and I'm sorry to end on this disheartening
note, but we will pick up withthe camp life in our next
episode.
So, Emily, thank you so much forcoming on.
Thank you for sharing yourfamily stories and this research
that you've so exhaustivelyresearched.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (39:08):
Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_01 (39:11):
Season one of History for the Reckoning is
made possible by support fromthe JACL Mount Olympus chapter,
as well as generous financialsupport from the Takahashi
Family Foundation and the JACommunity Foundation.
The music was produced byPatrick Coffin.
If you want to support the show,follow us on Instagram at
History for the Reckoning.
Sign up for our newsletter atHistory for the Reckoning on
(39:33):
Substack, where you'll also findthe show notes for each episode,
or support us financiallythrough Patreon at
patreon.comslash History for theReckoning.
This is History for the Reckoning, a podcast that
dives deep into the historythat's hard to hear but critical
to understand.
Season one, AmericanConcentration Camps.
The story of World War IIJapanese Incarceration.
Welcome to episode two of thepodcast.
Last time we learned about thetens of thousands of Japanese
(00:22):
and Japanese Americans who madethe West Coast home despite
steep racism before World WarII.
Today we'll cover the periodbetween Pearl Harbor and the
forced removal of the West CoastJapanese to concentration camps.
Helping us learn this history,we're joined today by Emily
Inoue Huey.
Emily is an author whose work inboth fiction and nonfiction has
dealt closely with this history,particularly her novel Beneath
(00:43):
the Wide Silk Sky, that was setentirely in this period.
Emily, thank you so much forjoining me today.
SPEAKER_00 (00:49):
Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_01 (00:51):
So starting with December 7th, the day that we'll
live in infinity, what was theexperience from your research or
family stories?
What was it like to hear thisnews in the Japanese-American
community, particularly thatPearl Harbor had been bombed?
SPEAKER_00 (01:04):
Oh, I think mostly, I mean, you know, you can't say
one particular response for awhole group like this, but I
think overwhelmingly it soundslike it was shock, just shock.
There had been rumors, Ibelieve.
There had even been somenewspaper editorials about how
something like this was going tohappen, you know, um, but no one
really thought it would.
(01:24):
And especially the JapaneseAmericans really didn't think
this was coming.
Um, I remember interviewing aman who lived here in Utah.
I live in Utah, um, here inUtah, and he just said he
couldn't believe that hisfamily, that his family's
country, so he's JapaneseAmerican, he couldn't believe
his family's country would havebombed his country.
(01:45):
You know, just that idea of itit just seemed unbelievable, I
believe.
SPEAKER_01 (01:50):
Yeah.
So I understand that directlyafter Pearl Harbor bombing, the
US government was already ataction and arresting people.
So yeah, tell us what happenedimmediately after Pearl Harbor
within the Japanese community.
SPEAKER_00 (02:03):
Well, you know, um for the time, news traveled
incredibly fast.
Like I think that within lessthan an hour, there were news
reports of this happening.
When you think about that, atthat time, the way
communication, everything was bytelegram, you know, um, it was
amazing that things were comingout that quickly.
Radio broadcasts were coming outum that soon.
(02:24):
And then going right back toregular programming.
Um yeah, uh within 24 hours ofPearl Harper's bombing, over 700
men had been um arrested.
They, these FBI agents would goout and they would um they would
go to the members of thecommunity who were leaders.
(02:44):
So these are people likebankers, reverends, um teachers,
Japanese language teachersespecially.
Okay.
All of these people would beIsei, which means first
generation, right?
These these men who were thefirst to come over from their um
from Japan.
SPEAKER_01 (02:57):
But if they were not American citizens.
SPEAKER_00 (03:01):
But if you were here in 1941, because of laws that
had been passed, anti-Japaneseimmigration laws, by 1941, it
means you've been here at likethree decades at least, right?
If not more.
And so these men had been herefor quite a while, but they were
leaders in thisJapanese-American community, and
um, they would come, usually inpairs of two, wearing these dark
(03:22):
suits and hats, and they wouldtake them.
And um they would take them forquestioning, usually, but then
they wouldn't come back, is ismy understanding standing about
when especially at thebeginning.
And um it was, it was, I think,particularly difficult that um
these women often didn't speakEnglish.
(03:43):
You know, they were they werealso usually from Japan, and
their their husbands had beengoing out into the world and
doing things, but they'd mostlybeen staying at home.
And so these women were left athome with these children, not
knowing where these fatherswere.
Some for, you know, weeks andmonths, some for even years.
I mean, it there are people whodidn't know where their father
was until after the end of thewar.
So it was it was particularlytraumatic, I think.
unknown (04:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (04:08):
Yeah.
And you mentioned that thesewere leaders in the community.
So the American government hasjust snatched up all of these
community leaders.
So who fills that void?
Where does the leadership comefrom after this?
SPEAKER_00 (04:18):
Oh, you know, um, yeah, especially in a Japanese
community.
I don't know if you're familiarwith Japanese culture, but
there's a huge deference to theelderly, right?
They are, you know, the bosses.
Um, and so now they're these menhave been snatched, um, and
particularly those who areleaders.
And so it kind of leaves thisvacuum.
(04:40):
And um sort of the secondgeneration we called the Nisei,
they sort of kind of step up andfill that role.
SPEAKER_01 (04:47):
Um, these are the ones who are American citizens,
the first born here.
SPEAKER_00 (04:50):
Yeah.
So the their parents came fromJapan, then they were born here.
And so because they're bornhere, they're citizens.
Um, and mostly, you know, theyspeak English, maybe speak some
Japanese, but mostly speakEnglish, you know, um, uh it's a
it's a different generation forsure.
And and my understanding is theWRA or the re war relocation
(05:12):
authority actually really kindof um, oh, what's the right
word?
Encouraged the JACL, which was asocial club, the Japanese
American Citizens League.
They really encouraged the JACLto kind of take that role.
Um and they did for the courseof through the course of the,
you know, this time and thenalso through the incarceration,
the JACL kind of took that role.
SPEAKER_01 (05:34):
Okay, so it's the second generation, the NISAI
that are old enough to fill theleadership void, but
specifically this organization,the JACL, the Japanese American
Citizens League.
SPEAKER_00 (05:43):
Yeah, that that eventually came.
You know, at the beginning, Ithink it was just people
helping, you know, NISA justhelping in general.
But eventually in the camps, Ithink they even had a more
significant role.
unknown (05:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (05:56):
Yeah.
So what was the position of theJACL?
You said the government hadencouraged the government as a
the War Relocation Authority,which was an arm of the
government, had encouraged theJCL or at least the NISAI to
step up.
So what was their relationshipwith the government after this
encouragement?
SPEAKER_00 (06:12):
I mean, I don't think they were ever officially
part of the government orworking for the government, but
um they were sort of like, youknow, there are in different
places chances for there to beblock captains and things like
that.
And often those two roles wenthand in hand.
Um, and I would say that JACL, Ithink some of the leaders talked
about it, and they reallydecided that um the best thing
(06:33):
they could do was show theirloyalty to this country and show
how American they were.
And so it was really truly weare going to cooperate, we are
going to, you know, do whatsacrifice what we have to to
help our country in this timethat's really difficult for our
country.
Um, it really was a time when umI just don't think we've seen
(06:55):
anything quite like this interms of the cooperation by the
group that's being oppressed.
SPEAKER_01 (07:00):
Yeah, it is really interesting because my
generation comes from stories ofthe civil rights movement among
the black community, thisassumption that if the
government tries to overstep,you will push back.
But I mean, just a differentmindset, like you're saying,
like, oh, Pearl Harbor had justhappened.
There was a lot of anti-Japanesepropaganda, so it's horrible.
But I guess at least a littlebit understandable how they got
(07:20):
there.
SPEAKER_00 (07:21):
Yeah.
And I think um, you know, I'vethought about this a lot.
You know, what is it thatcreated this?
And I think in some ways, it's avestige of their heritage,
right?
Like um in Japan, if you evergo, even today, you know, when
we there were the tsunamis justa few years ago, um, people do
not loot, people do not riot,people cooperate.
(07:42):
And if they need to walk 16miles to get home, then they
walk 16 miles to get home.
You know, things like that.
There um there is really a senseof honor, I think, but also um a
sense of the community over theindividual.
I think America tends to be kindof radically different than
that.
You know, it's individualism onsteroids.
Um, and so I think maybe thatmaybe opened the um door for
(08:06):
something like this.
Um, I'm not sure exactly.
But yeah, that is the decisionthat was made by the by the
group.
SPEAKER_01 (08:14):
So the initial response of the government had
been, let's round up thecommunity leaders.
Uh, we know this ends with theincarceration of over 120,000
people, but what were the thefirst steps that the government
and the military took,particularly to the West Coast
Japanese?
SPEAKER_00 (08:30):
Um well, I know that before before there's any you
know forcible relocations, um,we have things like the curfew.
So they set a curfew for allItalians, Germans, and Japanese
who were aliens, but also forall Japanese Americans.
That's the only group that italso applied to the citizens,
(08:53):
right?
SPEAKER_01 (08:54):
Oh geez.
SPEAKER_00 (08:54):
So Japanese Americans, Japanese, Italians,
Germans.
They were all um banned fromcertain areas, and then they had
a curfew generally from about 8p.m.
to 6 a.m.
You know, as things went along,uh, that different areas were a
little bit different, but thatwas generally the curfew.
And then they were also put on afive mile travel radius, um, uh,
(09:16):
what's the right word?
Restriction.
So they could only they couldonly travel within five miles.
Um they couldn't go further thanthat.
SPEAKER_01 (09:23):
Oh, so school or work is five and a half miles
away, tough luck.
SPEAKER_00 (09:26):
Yeah, you're not, yeah, you're not allowed.
So um, that was one of the umbig things that came out first.
They also were required toreport and um turn in things
like guns, cameras, um, radios.
Sometimes like obviously two-wayradios were considered a risk
(09:47):
because they thought that theywould um uh maybe communicate
with the enemy, but also, youknow, sometimes radios in
general.
I mean, um, yeah, there were alot of things like that that
they were supposed to turn in.
Um yeah, and it was just kind ofa time of starting to see that
things were really changing.
Um, that this wasn't just Idon't know, the reasonable
(10:12):
response that they thought itmight be.
SPEAKER_01 (10:14):
Yeah.
So from these interviews you'vedone or any family stories
research, what was the feelingsin the community at this point?
The leaders are telling themcomply, do whatever the
government asks you to do, butevery individual has their own
feelings.
SPEAKER_00 (10:26):
Yes.
And I think the responses areacross the whole board, right?
I've heard people who said, youknow, they were really angry.
I've had people who were soshocked, but I've also heard
people who were, you know,really committed to just doing
whatever they said.
Um, so I've I've heard a lot ofdifferent responses on this.
Um my feeling is that it wasjust an incredibly hard time.
(10:49):
And there were no right answers,you know.
Um yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (10:54):
Absolutely.
So one of the some of thestories that I've heard are
these terrifying, or I shouldsay, these very sad stories of
people feeling like I need toprove how American I am to the
extreme, to feeling like I needto destroy any semblance of
Japanese-ness within my home.
I wonder if you can share any ofthose stories.
SPEAKER_00 (11:12):
Yeah, lots of lots of individuals um threw away,
like for instance, if they hadweapons.
So many people came here withsamurai swords.
Um you know, it's like it's ait's uh something that's passed
down from generation togeneration.
It's this heirloom.
They're old, but they're aweapon and they're very
Japanese.
(11:32):
And so people would uh lots ofpeople would bury those or throw
them away um into water.
Um, I've heard about there arelots of stories, particularly in
the big cities, of people, youknow, in in like Japan towns,
where they'd get a big bonfireand they'd all throw in their
kimonos or photos that mighthave um made them, you know,
(11:54):
just showed how close they were,photos and letters that showed
how close they were to peoplewho lived in Japan.
Oh um it's it's really sadbecause there's kind of an
erasure that comes from that,right?
In terms cultural erasure.
Um, but yeah, there were peoplewere willing to give up a lot to
try to seem American, to try tofit in, to try to not seem like
(12:15):
a threat.
SPEAKER_01 (12:16):
Yeah.
Ultimately we know it wasineffective.
The government was already setin motion what they were going
to do.
So February 19th, 1942 isExecutive Order 9066 signed by
President Roosevelt.
Can you tell us a little bitabout that and how the community
felt when it happened?
SPEAKER_00 (12:32):
Um, well, I mean, it says that you can exclude people
from certain areas, right?
That's the big overall archingidea in here in this.
And at the time, I don't thinkpeople were quite sure exactly
what areas, exactly what itwould mean.
SPEAKER_01 (12:48):
Um And it wasn't even specific about which
people.
So yeah, you know, didn't evensay which people, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (12:53):
But it was like a very scary moment.
I think it's a moment when somepeople are like, oh, something's
going to happen.
Um, I've read in some of mygrandfather's journals, like
they started really speculatingwhat's coming.
Um yeah, I mean, what wouldhappen is these people would
generally come outside and therewould be in these Japanese
communities, um, they would comeoutside and it would be
(13:15):
somewhere on a fence post or ona um a uh light post or
something like that.
You know, it would just be therefor them to see and it would
just be like, what does thismean?
What what's going to happen?
You know, it was kind of veryscary.
SPEAKER_01 (13:30):
Oh, you mean there were notices like of the
executive order or notices fromthe government?
SPEAKER_00 (13:34):
Notices of the executive order.
SPEAKER_01 (13:36):
Okay.
Yeah.
So that the government made sureeveryone was aware.
unknown (13:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (13:41):
What was the reaction of the American people
at this point?
Pearl Harbor being so fresh.
And from our last episode, welearned many Americans had never
even met a Japanese person.
SPEAKER_00 (13:52):
Yeah, I mean I can only go off the polls at the
time, but there was a poll thatsaid that 93% of Americans
thought that this was a goodidea, specifically in regards to
Japanese aliens.
So people who weren't born here,93% of Americans agreed that it
was a good idea.
Only 7%.
(14:12):
Well, actually, I think it waseven less than that, who said
they thought it was a bad idea.
And then there were it was asmall percentage that was
undecided.
And then if you look at um foryou know Japanese Americans who
were citizens, people who wereborn in this country, it was
still over 50% that agreed thatthis was a great idea.
So, I mean, this is in March of1942.
(14:34):
So uh I would say overwhelmingres uh overwhelming support from
the American public at thistime.
Um and if you think about that,it's kind of uh shocking and
eye-opening.
Um, because it almost throughoutmost of my life, you know,
whenever this has come up in ahistory class or um, you know,
(14:56):
in conversation of any kind, umpeople overwhelmingly have
thought this is one of the umthe dark moments of our history
in this country.
But 93% thought it was a goodidea.
SPEAKER_01 (15:10):
I mean, that that just tells you what specifically
a good idea to remove, even lockup this entire group of people.
SPEAKER_00 (15:16):
Yeah.
So I think um it shows you whatlike anger, um, war, um,
propaganda, what all thosethings can sort of convince you
of in times like this.
SPEAKER_01 (15:31):
Yeah, you mentioned propaganda.
What was the propaganda of thetime in relation to the Japanese
that were living in America?
SPEAKER_00 (15:37):
Oh, it was so ugly.
I mean, it's just full of stuffabout um them as being almost
inhuman.
You know, they're they're alwaysportrayed with these teeth that
look like rat teeth, and youknow, they're portrayed as being
almost like um oh rodents, Isuppose.
And and in terms of just thenumber of them too and how
(15:58):
they're coming for you and uhdirtness, just all these
different elements are broughtup in if you look at this, the
propaganda of the time.
And and definitely that they'rea threat that you know we all
have to unite to stomp them out.
By the end of World War II, 13%of Americans were in favor of of
exterminating all the Japanese.
I mean, that's the world.
(16:19):
Yes.
This is like a this is just aterrible, terrible.
SPEAKER_01 (16:23):
13% are like, let's genocide this entire crazy.
SPEAKER_00 (16:26):
Yeah.
Well, and and you know, theyhave these atomic bombs.
13% of Americans thought thatwas a great idea just to kill
them all.
It's it's just a sign of howmuch hate can just infest a
community.
SPEAKER_01 (16:38):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_00 (16:39):
Um, obviously they're at war.
They're extenuatingcircumstances, but you'd hope
that you'd never be in that 13%,you know?
Um so yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (16:48):
The only parallel within my lifetime has been
directly after 9-11 withfeelings within this country
about uh specifically ArabAmericans, but all practitioners
of Islam.
And it was an uncertain time formany of those people who felt
like they were under threat.
And thank goodness they did nothave this large national
response.
But certainly the propaganda,the individual feelings, it's
(17:10):
horrible.
And it still happens today.
SPEAKER_00 (17:12):
Yeah, Norm Mineta, who was a Japanese American who
was in this um in thissituation, he was one of those
incarcerated.
He worked for um George Bush atthe time.
And he always talked about howwhen 9-11 happened, George Bush
turned to him and said, We won'tlet what happened to you happen
again.
You know, I don't know how wellthose promises were kept and
(17:33):
things.
Um, that's something that lotsof people debate.
But um I do think, you know, itwould be great if we could learn
from our mistakes.
SPEAKER_01 (17:42):
Yeah.
So I wonder if uh just topersonalize this history, uh, up
to this point, uh, if you haveany of the family stories or
just some of the research, somepersonal stories of the
experiences during this timeperiod, Pearl Harbor before the
first even voluntary removals.
SPEAKER_00 (17:56):
The FBI actually came to take away my
great-grandfather.
Um, he was one of those leadersin the community, Esei, first
generation, who they came totake.
And they took him down forquestioning to um to the city
center.
And um kind of an amazing thinghappened, which was that, you
know, my uncle particularly, whowas a who was uh American
(18:21):
citizen, he had a lot ofcontacts and he knew people
really well.
And my grandfather, mygreat-grandfather also knew
people in that area.
And these people who had workedwith him, who had brokered
produce with him, things likethat, they ended up going down
to the city center.
They found where these FBIagents were questioning him and
taking these people.
(18:41):
And um, they actually stood upfor him and said, Hey, we know
this guy, we know he's not adanger, we know he's not a
threat.
And, you know, almostunbelievably, the FBI agents
listened and they let him comehome.
And it didn't mean that hedidn't avoided incarceration
completely, but he was able tostay with his family, which
changed the course of myfamily's lives, you know.
(19:01):
Um, so I think that's a reallygood example of like what
sometimes speaking out, youknow, how we can support others,
how we can speak out for others.
I don't know that anyone thoughtthey had a really good chance of
getting him out, but they theydid it.
And that's that's a pretty neatthing.
And for some reason, that thatgreat grandfather, he lived
right near Stamford campus.
(19:21):
I don't know why, but for somereason that um that group did a
lot for my family.
They did a lot to support themthrough that time.
Um yeah, I don't know why.
SPEAKER_01 (19:31):
Yeah, that's great for sometimes there are people
doing the right thing even ifthe predominant feeling is to do
what we now consider to be thewrong thing.
SPEAKER_00 (19:39):
Yeah, I think so.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (19:41):
So uh as removal starts, there's two parts.
There's the Japanese were forcedto be removed and then they were
incarcerated.
How did the removal start?
How did they, I guess, yeah,first off, how did they find out
this was even going to happen?
They learned about thatexecutive order, but when did
the specifics and how did thespecifics start coming down?
SPEAKER_00 (20:00):
They would have new bulletins that would come.
Um, and the bulletins would say,this is the date that you need
to be ready, you'll be taken,this is where you need to
report.
Um and by and large, mostJapanese people, Japanese
Americans, did what they weretold.
You know, they they theyreported on the day they were
supposed to.
There were some who uh resisted,and their stories are really
(20:21):
interesting.
Um, but most of them evacuated.
One thing that we didn't talkabout yet was that there was a
period, a very short period,where they were told you can
remove yourself voluntarily,right?
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (20:35):
Um so I think Okay, so they knew that there was
going to be the governmentforcing you to move, but they
said, hey, if you want to, youcan just leave.
SPEAKER_00 (20:42):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (20:43):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (20:43):
Well, I don't even know if they knew they'd be
removed, but they knew they weresupposedly banned from there
were these areas that they couldbe excluded from, right?
So January 19th, the exclusionorder, FDR sent uh signs it.
And then like, mm-hmm I think bythe end of that month, uh
General DeWitt had come out andsaid, you know, if you want to
here's some zones.
(21:03):
If you want to get out now, getout.
But I would say it was less thana month later that they realized
that wasn't really going towork.
Um if you think about it.
SPEAKER_01 (21:13):
Some people were allowed, I mean, were allowed
to, some were encouraged toleave of their own accord.
How many took up the call andwhat kinds of people were even
able to?
SPEAKER_00 (21:21):
I don't have numbers on that.
Um, but if you think about thefact that they'd shut uh one
thing we didn't talk about wasafter um Pearl Harbor, they'd
shut down all their banks.
So there was no money.
You know, how do you go find anew apartment or home without
money?
So there's all the Japanesebanks have been closed.
Um, if you think about peoplewho had planted crops, that's
(21:42):
the case in my family.
How do you leave your crops?
Um, you have if you think aboutyou have uh loans out on these
crops, uh, you you have to makea go of it, right?
Um and then one of the biggestproblems was most Japanese
Americans, 90% of JapaneseAmericans, lived on this West
Coast.
Coast, you know, Oregon,Washington, California.
(22:02):
So if you don't, if all theJapanese Americans are there,
they don't have people inlandusually who they who they can go
to, you know, who they can go toto start a new start.
Um, they don't have contacts.
And so pretty quickly it becameclear this was not like a lot of
people were not going to be ableto do this.
And so by a month later, they'vealready actually created a new
(22:27):
law that um people areprohibited from leaving.
They have to stay where they areso that they have track of them,
so that they can keep track ofthem.
And you can't leave withoutmilitary approval, which you
know no one gets.
So um at that point, it became,you know, forced removal to
their assembly centers.
(22:48):
Um, that was really the onlyoption.
SPEAKER_01 (22:51):
So you mentioned that they got these notices that
said, here's your date and timeto report.
Uh what were what were thedetails?
How long did they typicallyhave, or even some specific
stories?
What were they allowed to bringwith them?
What were they told to expect?
SPEAKER_00 (23:06):
Well, so they were generally given about two weeks.
There are there are cases asshort as two days.
Um, but in general, it wasaround two weeks.
There are a few who got a fewmore, three, you know, four.
Um, but that the average was twoweeks.
SPEAKER_01 (23:22):
Um and they can only three weeks from these people
had farms, as you mentioned.
They had loans and obligations,and it was all businesses to
wrap it up.
SPEAKER_00 (23:33):
Yeah.
So, you know, um, they're toldthey can only bring what they
can carry.
So just two suitcases a piece,basically.
Um, and I don't know if you'veever fact for a trip, but that's
that's difficult.
Uh, if you think about um thefact that they had to bring
their own silverware, they hadto bring things to eat off of,
they had to bring bedding, theyhad to bring coats or anything
(23:55):
that they wanted to wear.
SPEAKER_01 (23:56):
You know, as oh, so the camps eventually did have
bedding, silverware, but you'resaying they just didn't know.
SPEAKER_00 (24:02):
They brought their own bedding.
Okay.
Mostly.
I mean, I think once they got tocertain places, they could have
like, you know, the kind ofthose blankets that um they give
soldiers and things like that.
I've seen some of those inpictures from certain uh, you
know, from in the camps, butthey didn't know what they would
have.
And so they brought everythingthey thought they might need.
And they weren't given likemattresses and stuff when they
(24:24):
first got to the assemblycenters.
They had to, they were given umsacks that they would put straw
into, and that would be theirbut like they they didn't have
any furniture.
I mean, what they took was whatthey knew they'd have.
And so um, very difficult.
I know in the case of mygrandmother, like they tried to
store all their things in aJapanese uh Buddhist church.
(24:46):
It ended up being burned down,so they lost all of that.
In my grandpa's case, they hadlike these crops that were, they
were going to lose their farmsbecause there was no they they
had taken out loans on seed anddifferent things to run the
crop.
And there was no way now thatthey had to leave it, that they
would um be able to pay backthose loans um or pay their
(25:07):
mortgages, things like that.
And so they would lose theirfarm, but they did have
tractors.
My uncle Henry had tractors,which was a very big deal at the
time.
Um, people still were stillusing horses and carts in some
cases.
So having a mechanized tractorwas a pretty big deal.
And um his neighbors were reallyneat and they said, you know,
we'd we'd love to, you know,hold on to those for you, take
(25:31):
care of them.
And my understanding is that hetold them, well, go ahead and
use them, you know.
Thank you so much for takingcare of them.
Go ahead and use them.
And they said, Don't worry aboutit.
We won't even use them.
They'll be in the same conditionwhen you come back.
And so, you know, there weresome good people.
There were some good peopleduring this time.
SPEAKER_01 (25:47):
So, in the case where you didn't have good
people that were willing tosafeguard your things, uh, I
imagine you'd have to liquidateeverything.
You don't know when you'recoming back, you don't know what
you'd have available to you.
SPEAKER_00 (25:57):
Yeah, you liquidate everything for pennies on the
dollar.
You know, I've heard lots ofstories of people having to sell
their china or their mother'ssewing machines or their pianos
or whatever for nothing, theirhouses for nothing.
Or just leave it there, youknow, just leave it and people
would come in and take it whenthey wanted to.
Um, you know, even even likepets, you know, they just
(26:19):
there's they couldn't bringthem.
If they couldn't find a home forit, they just had to leave it
there and hope something goodwould happen.
SPEAKER_01 (26:25):
Yeah, I guess you say it's selling it for pennies
on the dollar.
I imagine that's because all therest of their community, the
typically white community, wasaware these people were gone in
two weeks.
unknown (26:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (26:35):
So you can demand anything.
SPEAKER_00 (26:38):
Yeah, you can demand anything.
You know that if if you don'ttake it, that it'll be there
later, you know, or if if thisperson doesn't take your dill,
maybe the next person will.
So yeah, there were people whowould even come in and kind of
like just kind of take over likeall this stuff so that it was
like people had businesses basedon this model.
So um, yeah, it was the it was asad time, I think.
SPEAKER_01 (27:02):
Yeah, like looting by a different name.
SPEAKER_00 (27:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (27:05):
So when we get to that end of that typically two
weeks, what was the reportinglike?
Where did they go?
What yeah, what was that daylike?
SPEAKER_00 (27:12):
Yeah.
So I mean, I think uh I think uparound 120,000 people were
eventually incarcerated.
But in this initial roundup, Ithink there were like 98,000.
Um, and if you can imagine, thegovernment doesn't have anywhere
to put 98,000 people.
unknown (27:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:30):
Um, so they um mostly used fairgrounds, places
like, you know, if you thinkabout Charlotte's Webb, the
state fair, um, they had thesestate fairs, places like that.
Um, they had racetracks.
I think total they had around 15official assembly centers plus a
couple like welcome centers orsomething like that.
They they were essentially alsoassembly centers, but they had
(27:52):
people go to these places.
My family ended up at SantaAnita Racetrack and at Puallop
um fairgrounds.
And um my aunt, I remember oneof my aunts telling me that it
was just awful because they sentyou down the same barbed wire uh
chutes that they sent the cowsand the pigs through.
(28:12):
And she just felt like ananimal.
And I guess sometimes peoplewould come down, like people who
are really angry at theJapanese, would come down and
like jeer and point at them andsay ugly things.
But also at the same time, a lotof times friends would come and
they would kind of be there tojust support them as they were
taken.
Um, so two sides of one coin,right?
(28:34):
And um, yeah, then they end upin these assembly centers, which
are essentially livestockhousing units.
And um my aunt again told melike they ended up at this
racetrack.
And so they lived in, I thinkthe family.
So the great grandfather, hiskids, and then their little new
(28:56):
family, because her mom was oneof, let's see, how do I say
this?
So great-grandfather, uncle,aunt, and her parents, and then
all the kids, the four kids,they all lived in two uh horse
dolls.
SPEAKER_01 (29:10):
And um literally horse stalls.
SPEAKER_00 (29:12):
Literally horse stalls, yeah.
Like they had put planks, Iguess, like uh they had put some
sort of like wood on top of thefloor, but there was still
manure under it.
And the walls had beenwhitewashed, but they haven't
been cleaned first.
So, like I remember her tellingme the story of like when it got
hot, the manure would likebubble and um pop the whitewash
(29:35):
on top of it.
And anyway, just awful, awfulconditions.
They had a one-year-old baby.
If you can imagine, there'snowhere to set this baby.
There's no privacy because youknow, horse stalls aren't like
all the way to the ceiling, youknow.
They they have quite a bit ofspace at the top, and so your
neighbors can see in, or youhave to put up some sort of
sheet, or try to find somethingto give yourself any sense of
(29:56):
privacy.
But more than anything, I thinkit's just very dehumanizing.
Yeah, really, really.
SPEAKER_01 (30:04):
Literally dehumanizing, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (30:05):
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (30:07):
So tell us about the assembly centers.
Uh, were these uh we imaginelater when they're in these
large camps in the middle ofnowhere that they're fairly
literally prisons.
They're surrounded by barbedwire.
What was the assembly centerlike before the camps?
SPEAKER_00 (30:20):
You know, I've seen pictures that do have barbed
wire in them.
SPEAKER_01 (30:23):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (30:23):
I don't I haven't researched this particular
thing, but I've seen pictureswhere there's barbed wire in
those around those chutes andthings like that.
There were fences, definitely.
Um, and I imagine that the top,at least, there was barbed wire.
But I do I have heard stories ofpeople like being able to slip
things through the fencessometimes, or people were able
to come visit them.
They the Japanese Americanscouldn't leave, but people could
(30:46):
come visit them in theseassembly centers, which
generally weren't super far fromtheir homes.
Um and uh I mean, I think theywere all in California,
Washington, Oregon.
I think there were some in therewas at least one in Arizona,
too, maybe two.
Um, so they were fairly close towhere they had been taken from.
(31:06):
And so people would sometimescome visit them.
But yeah, there were soldiers,there were guards, there were
guns, there were all thosethings.
Um, yeah.
It was it was a detentioncenter.
You know, some people, somefriends came to visit my family,
and um, they brought with them alemon uh melon because the food
in these places was terrible,you know, it was all like kind
(31:26):
of slop, you know, if you canimagine.
They're feeding these masses.
And apparently, like JapaneseAmericans weren't used to this
food, and they were just gettingsick in you know, mass
quantities.
So anyway, but they they broughtthis melon and when they got
there, the guards, you know,sliced it in half with his
bayonet to make sure that therewas that they weren't trying to
(31:47):
sneak anything to them.
SPEAKER_01 (31:50):
Uh so what was the uh I guess I should ask first,
about how long were people inthese assembly centers before
they ended up in the morelong-term camps?
SPEAKER_00 (31:59):
Yeah, I I think it varied, but for my family it was
about three months.
Okay.
Yeah.
I think it some people long afew months longer, some people.
SPEAKER_01 (32:07):
A semester of school.
SPEAKER_00 (32:08):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So they were there while theywere um building camps, the the
what would eventually be thepermanent camps um around the
country.
SPEAKER_01 (32:19):
So what do you do with three months of time?
Like what did they have to do?
SPEAKER_00 (32:23):
Oh, you know, they didn't, you know, that's one
thing about uh this group.
They they did what they could.
You know, they made it as niceas they could.
They tried to create a school,they tried to make, you know,
things to do.
They um they participated in thewar effort.
Um, you know, they've made netsand um camouflage nets and
(32:44):
things like that um to help withuh the soldiers, help the
soldiers in the war.
Whatever assignment that thearmy would give them, they did.
Um, still trying to prove theirloyalty.
So yeah, they did what theycould with their time.
SPEAKER_01 (32:59):
So this three months comes to an end.
They're told you're being taken.
I guess.
Do you have you ever heard anystories of people being told for
shipping you out?
Or like what was the transitionlike?
SPEAKER_00 (33:10):
Yeah.
So my uncle tells the story.
He says they were told they weregoing go, and they were put on
um trains with the family, butthey he said there weren't any
like great seats or anything.
There weren't, it wasn't like aregular train.
It was more of a, you know,group mass mass relocation kind
of train.
(33:31):
And they had um they had uhwindows on these in these
trains, but they paid theyblacked them out with black
paper.
And they said, Don't open these,don't don't let anyone see in,
don't look out.
And they weren't told how longthey'd be on the train or where
they were going.
And my uncle says he was on thetrain for three days and three
nights, I think.
And um he just remembers, youknow, it's so hard to sleep and
(33:55):
taking turns trying to lie downand things like that.
Um, but they didn't know wherethey were going.
And then at some point, my auntsays that they were stopped
while they were the train wasgetting coal, and a woman came
to the window and um knocked onthe window.
Well, they didn't know it was awoman, though.
It was they just had thisblacked-out window, right?
And someone starts knocking,knocking.
(34:16):
They've been told not to openthem.
They don't open it, they don'topen it, and then finally
someone's like, I can't take itand they open it.
And it ends up being a woman outon the platform, and she has
this basket of clothing, uh,blankets, mittens, scarves,
whatever, you know, and shestarts as soon as the window
opens, she starts putting itthrough the window and she gets
as much in as she can and shesays, Where you're going, it's
(34:37):
cold.
And it turned out after threedays and three nights that they
ended up in Wyoming and it gotvery, very cold, I think in the
negative 30s or something thatfirst winter.
And um, and this family fromCalifornia, that's where my aunt
and uncle were from, they reallyappreciated what she had given
them, um, as you can imagine.
Especially when, you know, thebarracks were like not
(34:57):
insulated.
They had like something calledtar paper on them, which is
about the thickness of a cerealbox.
That's all that was between themand this Wyoming winter.
Um it ended up being very, veryimportant.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (35:07):
Oh, and they're from California.
So even as they brought theirtwo suitcases with everything
they thought they could use,they probably didn't have winter
coats.
SPEAKER_00 (35:14):
Yeah, they didn't have, they didn't have the right
equipment.
Yeah.
So they're very grateful.
SPEAKER_01 (35:19):
So Emily, we've talked about how all of the
Japanese from the West Coastwere being removed.
Uh, how did they determine whowas Japanese?
Or big air quotes here, howJapanese would you have to be
before I thought you areinherently dangerous, you should
be removed.
SPEAKER_00 (35:34):
I think it was 116th.
And um it applied to everyone,whether you are a child, whether
you are an adult, whether you'revery old.
I mean, you know, you look atsome of these pictures, these
kids are one-year-old all theway to up till 90 or
nine-year-olds who can't evenwalk in.
You just think these people arenot threats, but um, it didn't
matter.
It applied to everyone, it evenuh applied to children who'd
(35:56):
been adopted into whitefamilies.
It applied to people who aremarried to people who weren't
Japanese.
And so in those cases, peoplewould have to decide whether to
come with their spouse or theirchildren or send them to camp
and stay out and uh uh justterrible, terrible questions to
have to face, right?
(36:16):
Not knowing how long they'd bein.
So there were, you know, peoplewere like, well, if it's a few
months, then you know, maybe youshould stay and keep the
business going or whatever.
Versus, you know, do we do wesplit up?
Like that's also terrible.
And do I want to let you gosomewhere?
You don't know where you'regoing.
Am I willing to let you gosomewhere you don't we don't
know anything about by yourself?
(36:37):
Like it was just a terrible,terrible decision to have to
make.
SPEAKER_01 (36:40):
As the final bit of the history, uh, from the
stories you've heard or thehistory you've learned, what was
it like stepping off the trainsat these camps?
And I guess start with where didthey find themselves?
What did they experience?
SPEAKER_00 (36:53):
Yeah, so my understanding is, you know,
they'd get out of these trainsand they'd be in the worst
places, you know, all thesecamps, these permanent camps,
the government took land that noone wanted, you know, that they
could get for cheap.
So it was always in a desert ora swamp, uh, mostly desert.
I think there's just one swamp.
Um, but just terrible, terribleplaces, hot, dusty, or cold,
(37:17):
soggy, you know, places.
And my my family ended up atHeart Mountain, Wyoming, which
today is quite beautiful.
But at the time it was justcompletely uncultivated with
dust, you know, and um justnothing around for miles and
miles.
And my grandma told me that whenshe got off the um train, she
(37:38):
just cried because it was justso awful.
And um, and just there was justnothing.
Just it's very, very dusty.
So when you she said when youtake a drink of your coffee or
your milk or whatever, you takea sip, and then by the time you
were ready for the next sip, itwould just be covered with dust
and you'd have to pull that allout and then try again.
(37:59):
Each each each time you took adrink or a spoonful of your soup
or whatever, you'd be fightingthe dust.
Um, and your face would alwaysbe covered in just dust.
So I think I think it was prettydisheartening.
It was really disheartening whenthey got off.
And then, you know, when theysaw the first their first
impression of the camp wasterrible, it wasn't finished.
And so, you know, the thebarracks that they lived in were
(38:22):
completely, you know, unsuitablefor living through winters and
things like that.
It was just kind of a poorlyconstructed shed.
And um, the bathrooms, therewere no partitions between the
toilets or any privacy in theshowers.
And it was just, again,dehumanizing, right?
I think over time they did a lotwith those areas, and I'm sure
(38:45):
you'll interview another guestabout that time period and what
they did to flourish and makethe best of what they had.
But um, I think when they firstgot off, it was pretty
disheartening.
SPEAKER_01 (38:55):
Yeah, and I'm sorry to end on this disheartening
note, but we will pick up withthe camp life in our next
episode.
So, Emily, thank you so much forcoming on.
Thank you for sharing yourfamily stories and this research
that you've so exhaustivelyresearched.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (39:08):
Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_01 (39:11):
Season one of History for the Reckoning is
made possible by support fromthe JACL Mount Olympus chapter,
as well as generous financialsupport from the Takahashi
Family Foundation and the JACommunity Foundation.
The music was produced byPatrick Coffin.
If you want to support the show,follow us on Instagram at
History for the Reckoning.
Sign up for our newsletter atHistory for the Reckoning on
(39:33):
Substack, where you'll also findthe show notes for each episode,
or support us financiallythrough Patreon at
patreon.comslash History for theReckoning.
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