April 9, 2026 • 23 mins
The JACL, or Japanese American Citizens League, was probably the most prominent and influential JA organization during WWII, who had a policy of cooperation with the government's acts against Japanese and Japanese Americans. In this addenda, we go through the history of the JACL (especially in regards to the War) and talk through exactly what the evidence shows they did: how close were they to the government, how far did their appeasement go, where did they push back?
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SPEAKER_01 (00:01):
This is History for the Reckoning, a podcast that
dives deep into the historythat's hard to hear but critical
to understand.
Season one, AmericanConcentration Camps, the story
of World War II JapaneseIncarceration.
Welcome to another addendaepisode of the podcast.
I'd like to say a huge thank youto Chizo Amori for coming on
(00:23):
because she, as someone who isserved a survivor, someone who's
been through these events, it'sreally special to get her
testimony, to get her stories,and be able to hear from someone
firsthand that it just provesthat these things really
happened when you talk tosomeone that lived through them.
These things weren't that longago.
These things can still happentoday.
So thank you again, Chizu.
I'd like to talk in this addendaepisode about the JACL.
(00:46):
So we mentioned in past episodeshow the JACL, this organization
called the Japanese AmericanCitizens League, JACL, uh, were
leaders in the community thatare made up of Nisei, so not the
immigrant generation, Americancitizens, the second generation.
And that uh after the Esei hadbeen rounded up by the FBI,
there was a power vacuum there,and the JACL was the most
(01:07):
prominent organization that camealong to fill it and to lead and
represent the Japanese Americancommunity to the nation and to
the government.
But we also mentioned how uhtheir policy was to cooperate
with the government in thesethings that we feel are really
objectionable today.
So let's talk about exactly whatthey did during the war, what
their legacy is, and whatthey're doing now.
(01:28):
So the JSEL was formed in 1929.
Like I said, it was led by Esei,so well sorry, it was led by
NISAI.
Interestingly, in 1990, the JSELpublished a report.
They'd hired a historian namedDeborah K.
Lim as a researcher toinvestigate what the JSCL did
during the war.
They chose to do this, they didnot, they were not forced to do
(01:50):
this, but there are many rumorsabout what the JSCL had done in
relation to the governmentduring the war, so they wanted
it to be all out in the open.
And thankfully, Frank Abe, whowe're gonna hear from in a
future episode, he'll be one ofour guests, has made the entire
report that Deborah Kim Limprepared available on his
website, resistors.com.
So I'm going to be referencingit heavily and going through
(02:11):
each major section of the reportthroughout this episode.
So, first in the pre-war period,uh there were times when the FBI
clearly reached out to the JCLand were asking for intelligence
on specific individuals.
They'd go, like, tell us alittle bit about person X, and
it seems like the JSCL didcooperate in those things.
They claim they didn't giveadditional information.
(02:32):
There wasn't a witch hunt, theyweren't trying to go uh deep and
like rat out people, but they doadmit that they responded to the
FBI and naval intelligence whenthey had questions in the
pre-war period.
So the next section is about theresponse to Pearl Harbor.
So after Pearl Harbor, obviouslyhuge events, both for the
country but also in the JapaneseAmerican community, and the JACL
(02:54):
kind of went into overdrive atthat point.
So uh many regions that the JCLwere divided into formed really
special committees that wereeven more zealous for supporting
American causes and trying toshow loyalty to the American
government.
The most famous one is calledthe Anti-Axis Committee.
They pledged loyalty immediatelyto the country, to the
president, and they reached outto various authorities to pledge
(03:17):
support, to offer help.
There's even this uh quote thatcame out over the radio at the
time from the JSCL.
It said, Quote, We are allAmericans, pledge to the defense
of the United States.
Any disloyal act or word by anyJapanese or American citizen of
Japanese descent harms theUnited States.
As Americans, we now function ascounter-espionage.
(03:38):
Any act or word prejudicial tothe United States committed by
any Japanese must be warned andreported to the FBI, naval
intelligence, sheriff's office,and local police.
Any menace to the security ofour country must be thoroughly
and completely wiped out, closequote.
So they were particularlydistrusting of the kibe.
You remember from a previousaddenda, the kibe are those who
(04:02):
were American citizens but hadbeen educated in Japan, and many
in the leadership of the JCLwere particularly suspicious of
them, and at this time furnisheda list of the kibe to the FBI,
these people that they thoughtshould get particular notice by
the FBI.
So the next section is responseto military orders and the
curfew.
So remember, after Pearl Harbor,military orders came down on the
(04:24):
West Coast, often thatparticularly affected or
particularly applied to those ofJapanese descent.
So let's introduce here MikeMasaoka.
He was one of the leaders in theJSEL throughout this period and
even after this period.
He was from Salt Lake City, sothe orders didn't affect him
personally, but he was a bigmover and shaker in the JSEL,
and a lot of his influence isseen in this entire report, this
(04:48):
entire period.
So a lot of the quotes that I'llbe pulling out are directly from
him.
A lot of the memos had his nameon them, even if he wasn't the
primary author, he was a part ofit.
Uh at this time he floated theidea of a suicide battalion.
So this did not come to be, butthere is evidence that he
actually did float it toauthorities as an idea.
(05:09):
The idea being that why don't wedraft a whole bunch of uh
Japanese Americans to besoldiers?
Because he really felt likegoing into the military,
fighting for your country wouldprove their loyalty, and to make
sure that they stayed on task,that they are loyal, loyal,
we're gonna keep their familiesas these hostages.
So we're gonna put these men inhorrifically dangerous
(05:31):
situations, so it's kind of likethey're always on a suicide
mission.
To make sure that they followorders, we're gonna keep their
families hostage.
So a really alarming, awfulthing to suggest, it did not
come to be, but what did come tobe is that when the American
government did recruit JapaneseAmericans, even draft them, they
put them into a segregated unitthat was only Japanese
(05:51):
Americans, and when they weresent over to Europe to fight the
Nazis, they were put inparticularly dangerous missions
and were given orders that putthem in harm's way.
It's arguable, but I think theywere genuinely put in harm's way
more than their whitecounterparts would have been.
So it might be that there's aholdover from the suggestion
that Mike Masaoka made.
(06:12):
So the JCL were consulted as uhthese orders were put in place
as the suggestion that all ofJapanese Americans were going to
be forcibly removed from theWest Coast, the JCL were able to
give their thoughts, give theirfeedback.
In fact, Mike Masooka testifiedbefore Congress on the matter in
March of 1942, saying, quote,with any policy of evacuation
(06:32):
definitively arising fromreasons of military necessity
and national safety, we are incomplete agreement.
As American citizens, we cannotand should not take any other
stand.
But also, as American citizensbelieving in the integrity of
our citizenship, we feel thatany evacuation enforced on
grounds violating that integrityshould be opposed.
(06:54):
So the the party line, the JCLstance, was that they'd
cooperate with what thegovernment wanted, but they
wanted rights respected.
In particular, they had memosabout how they expected that if
these orders came down, theywould not just be applied based
on race, that they would beapplied to, for instance, all
those who were descended fromenemies of uh the United States
at that time.
So it would include Italians, itwould include Germans, that that
(07:17):
did not end up happening.
But their official stance was uhwe will totally cooperate, but
we want you to respectindividual rights and we want
this to be done in an orderlyway.
They really felt that thatcooperation was going to help
their community later.
In particular, it'd score likepoints so that they could
influence the conditions thatwould be affected later, that
they could try to make things asgood as possible.
(07:37):
So the next section is actionsinitiated in the community,
which is to say the USgovernment didn't make them do
this, the JACL chose to do itthemselves.
The biggest one is the KiBaysurvey.
So we mentioned how theyfurnished a list to the
government of here's all thekibay, those who've been
educated in Japan, but areAmerican citizens.
The JACL at this point took it astep farther.
(07:59):
They chose to do an in-depthsurvey of all the kibay.
They really distrusted them.
So this was things like uhdetailed demographics of the
kibay, where they live, theirhobbies, all these kinds of
things.
They sent it out to all of theirchapters and expected every
chapter to fill out informationabout all the kibe in their
chapters, but I think also intheir communities, they really
(08:19):
wanted to take a survey of allthe kibay and expected this to
happen.
There are also accusations ofthis time that the the Nisei and
JSCL in particular were takingadvantage of the tough spot that
Isei were in.
Like maybe anisei father hadbeen removed from the home, now
the wife's in a tough position,or that these Isei maybe they
didn't have the languageability, or because they weren't
citizens, they lacked certain uhrights.
(08:42):
And so there's this accusationthat they're being taken
advantage of by giving, like,well, one accusation was like uh
Nisei might step in and takeover a business, take over
property, that kind of thing,and leave these effectively
widows, these women whosehusbands have been taken away
without any recourse, leave themout in the cold.
The report does not give directevidence of that kind of thing
happening, doesn't mean thatdidn't happen.
But one thing that came up a lotwas this accusation of Issei
(09:05):
might go to the JCL and look forhelp.
So, like legal help, things liketravel orders, the ability to uh
voluntarily leave the state ofCalifornia, the West Coast, and
that the JCL were accused ofcharging them exorbitant fees to
do this kind of thing.
Based on the report, it's notclear that this happened at all.
It probably did, because there'senough stories from different
(09:25):
places that makes it sound likethis definitely happened, but it
is pretty clear that this wasnot JSCL policy.
It was pretty clearly denied bythe JSCL at the time.
The next section is the JCLposition on legal test cases.
So as uh these orders werecoming down before the force
removal, like curfews, like theinability for people to travel,
(09:46):
military orders, and then as theforce removal happened, it was
pretty clear to a lot of peoplein the community that this was
unconstitutional.
These kinds of orders would notstand up in court, and so there
were several people that wantedto make legal test cases.
Let's purposely break theseorders so that it can go to
court and we can prove by infront of a judge, in front of a
jury, that these things areunconstitutional and have it all
(10:08):
struck down.
The JACL was very against doingthis kind of thing.
They thought that biting backwas going to make the entire
community look bad.
The J ACL position was let'sjust cooperate.
We know that it's ridiculous.
We know that maybe they wouldn'teven hold in court, but we
insist on cooperating to looklike loyal Americans.
One note that I'll put there isthat the ACLU also refused to
(10:31):
take up these test cases.
So the ACLU, the American CivilLiberties League, who is very
famous for uh defending thecivil liberties of American
citizens through the law, werealso not on the side of testing
these orders against theJapanese Americans at this time.
I guess another no on that isthat ultimately, when these test
cases did start to come out, andwe're going to cover those in
(10:53):
future episodes, these casesthat went before the Supreme
Court that challenged thelegality of these orders against
the Japanese American community,the JSCL did deliver amicus
briefs in some of these cases.
So you could say their stancechanged, turned around, at least
became more nuanced, and theydid try to offer some support to
these cases as they went on.
(11:13):
So next is their relationshipwith the War Relocation
Authority and other governmentagencies.
So the War Relocation Authority,WRA, was the organization that
set up the camps, that hadeveryone moved into the camps,
had to take care of them oncethey were there.
They were the jailers, I guessyou'd say.
So there was clearly a closerelationship between the JCL and
the WRA.
(11:33):
JSCL members had preferredpositions within the camps.
They had these trusted positionsin the camps.
So this started to really makepeople in camp angry.
It started to feel like the JSCLwere completely selling out the
rest of the Japanese Americancommunity for their own benefit.
They were getting thesepreferred positions.
What's most troubling is theassertion by Deborah Lim that
(11:54):
some of these JSCL leaders wereliterally on the WRA payroll.
But from my reading of it, in myopinion, the evidence she cites
doesn't directly support that.
Although it's bad enough that itis clear that these JSCL
leaders, Mike Masoka included,had great influence within the
WRA.
So they submitted a lot of memoswith like their suggestions for
(12:15):
what should be WRA policy.
And in a lot of cases, that didend up becoming WRA policy.
So I don't think they wereliterally on the payroll, but I
think they were doing things asthough they were on the payroll
regardless.
That they were really trying tomake things happen that
ultimately did happen.
So one of those things is likethe suggestion of segregating
those that were thought to betroublemakers, which did come
(12:37):
out later.
One bombshell that Deborah Limbthrows out in the report is how
the JCL oversold their influenceto the government.
They said they had many moremembers that they did than they
actually did.
They said they were moreinfluential within the community
and were respected, morepowerful than they actually
were.
That's very interesting that shewas able to find evidence of
(12:57):
that inside it.
So the JCL also helped withrecruiting soldiers once the
government wanted the Nisei,these American citizens, to join
the military.
The JCL was convinced, and theywere probably ultimately right
about this, that the greatestway to prove loyalty, to make
the rest of America trustJapanese Americans, was to show
them fighting and dying justlike all other Americans for
(13:17):
their country.
They thought it was going to bea very good look.
At this point, they alsocomplained when these JA,
Japanese American soldiers, weretreated badly.
So there was an instance wherelike the president of the United
States was going to be goingthrough a camp, and at that
camp, the military leaders toldall of the Japanese American
soldiers, stay in your barracks.
We don't want the president tosee you.
(13:38):
And the JSEL did make a formalcomplaint about that.
Alright, the next section isabout activities in the camp.
So it is clear that the JSCL wasclose to camp administration.
They were the most likely to be,you could say, like sucking up,
but like bending the knee tocamp authority because this was
an extension of bending the kneeto all American government
policy to look like goodcitizens, like they were
(13:59):
cooperating.
There was definitely a fewnotable individuals that would
make reports on their fellowprisoners in the camps, like
they were ratting out the peoplethat were incarcerated with
them.
It's not clear exactly howwidespread this was.
And in fact, in the report,Deborah Lynn points out that uh
the government themselvesadmitted that a lot of the
information wasn't that helpful.
(14:20):
They didn't get as much as maybethey were hoping, but it
definitely happened.
So because it definitelyhappened, that caused a lot of
tension.
So, in particular in Manzanar,we mentioned the Manzanar riot
in a previous addenda, how thesetensions around the JSCL members
are getting preferred positionsin the camp, like they're
getting the better jobs.
So it seems to be also acorrelation where we suspect
(14:41):
that these JSCL members arereporting on us, they're trying
to sell out their own community,and that ended up with violence
against these JSCL members,ultimately the Manzanar riot.
So the JSCLs here, support ofmilitary service became public,
and some in the camps saw thatas a betrayal.
So it's like we've been lockedinside these concentration
camps, and now you're supportingthe government who wants us to
(15:04):
go and die for them afterthey've taken away our
constitutional rights.
It was seen as a betrayal bysome.
So after the loyalty oath wasadministered, which we've
touched on in previous episodes,uh, the government trying to use
a piece of paper to say, oh,we've we've already told the
entire US population that thesepeople are untrustworthy.
We need some kind of like rubberstamp to say, oh, they're
(15:25):
trustworthy enough that theirsons can be drafted into the
military.
So they gave out this loyaltyquestionnaire.
And there are two famousquestions on there that people
found objectionable and theyrightly did.
And sometimes people chose totake a moral stance and say no
and no to those two questions,which we're we're gonna talk
about the loyalty questionnairein depth later.
But suffice to say, some peopletook a stance and said no no to
(15:49):
two particularly objectionablequestions on that survey.
They were called no-nos.
And the JSEL stance was that weshould segregate these people,
that they inherently had becomedisloyal, or at least their
loyalty was in question forhaving made that stance, and
they had forfeited their rightsto be among the rest of the
populace that needed to besegregated.
What is interesting, at the sametime, they did not think that
(16:11):
this level of disloyalty wastantamount to these people
forfeiting their Americancitizenship.
So they still thought thesepeople have rights, but they
have made a they've taken astance that makes them
inherently untrustworthy.
We should segregate them.
And that happened in Thule Lake,which we've touched on a little
bit before, the prison within aprison, the maximum security
camp, as some have called it.
So finally, in the report, uhDeborah K.
(16:33):
Lynn put out is the position onaction on those resistors.
So within the camps, we're gonnatouch on this when Frank Abe
comes on the show.
Or he's not gonna touch on it,we're gonna talk a lot when
Frank Abe comes on the show,those who chose to resist these
government actions.
And the position of the JCL wasthat was a hard no, like anyone
who tried to resist,particularly the draft.
(16:54):
So I will point out that theyhad read the Pulse of America
correctly.
The rest of American society atthis time felt like draft
dodging was the most awful thingthat you could possibly do.
America was like, we're in awar, we're all on the same team
here, everybody bear get onboard.
If you're drafted, you gotta go.
There's absolutely noalternative.
Uh, and so the JCL took a reallyblack and white view of this
(17:17):
stance.
The people who chose to resistthe draft, as in not show up for
their draft appointments in thecamps, most of them did it as a
principled stand.
This was their best way ofprotesting the treatment that
they had received when theirconstitutional rights were taken
away and they were put in theseconcentration camps.
But the JCL did not see it thatway.
They saw it as you guys areputting this entire community as
(17:39):
risk by choosing to do thisthing, the rest of society is
gonna think makes us look so, soawful.
So how you dare you do that?
We're gonna throw the book atyou.
They really wanted these peopleto be put down, convinced of the
error of their ways, that kindof thing.
So that ends the Deborah K.
Limb Report.
Now you might think this allsounds pretty damning, and I'd
agree it was.
(17:59):
Like, I completely disagree withthe JACL's stance on most of
these things during the wartime.
As Emily Inouway Huey pointedout in her interview, a lot of
these actions were taken becausethe JACL desperately wanted the
American public to see JapaneseAmericans as loyal despite being
of Japanese descent.
I think they went about it thewrong way, but they really felt
(18:21):
it was the right action at thetime.
I will point out that after thewar, the JCL has, to a much
greater degree, I think, livedup to their ideals as a civil
rights organization.
So they've supported civilrights efforts in many arenas.
Uh the Denshow.com article onthe JCL mentions that, quote,
JACL lawyers also wrote briefsin support of ending segregation
(18:42):
in schools in the case of Brownv.
Board of Education, and in favorof ending restrictions against
interracial marriage in the caseof Loving v.
Virginia.
So, close quote.
They worked hard to elevate andshowcase the Nisei veterans as
well.
So during the war, they thoughtthat these people going to war
was going to make the communitylook good.
Afterward, they really tried topump up these stories and show
(19:03):
how great and revered thesepeople were who had chosen to
put their lives on the line forour country.
Most notably, I'd say, theyspearheaded the reparations
movement, which we'll cover in afuture episode.
So that was the major reckoningof the US government with what
they had done to the Japaneseand Japanese Americans during
the war that ended in an apologyand reparations being paid to
(19:25):
these people.
The Japanese American CitizensLeague was big enough, connected
enough, had the legal acumen tomove that forward, and they they
did so, even though you couldlook back on this episode and
think that some of the problemsthey had directly caused, but
they did try to make up for it.
So today the JSEL, which I am amember of, is very active in
fighting for justice, for civilrights, both in the JA community
(19:48):
and without.
And at this point, I am proud tobe a member of it.
I think they're doing great worktoday.
Okay, thank you for joining meon that deep dive about the JACL
during World War II.
I'd like to point you now toanother podcast that I highly
recommend called Kampu.
That's produced by Densho.
It is also about theincarceration of Japanese
Americans during World War II.
(20:09):
This comes from Densho, thisincredible historical archival
organization that is documentingthe Japanese American experience
through history, has so manyoral histories.
I reference so many of theirthings in the creation of this
podcast as I've been learningabout the Japanese American
experience.
So highly recommend them justfor their resources at
densho.org, but also theirpodcast Kampu, which is going
(20:31):
through the daily life withinthese concentration camps.
So everything that you wanted toknow that we didn't cover in my
interview with Chizu, they coverin Kampu.
So I highly recommend it.
But one amazing story from itthat I loved, again, it's
because it's talking about dailylife.
What were the realities of beingin a camp for years and years?
Was outside of the camp therewas a pharmacy that was being
(20:52):
remodeled.
When they tore down one of thewalls, they found a bunch of
these receipts and order formsfrom those that were in the
concentration camp.
So suddenly you get this peekbehind the curtain.
What were people ordering?
What did they want?
What did they need?
What were influencing theirdaily realities that they tried
to make up for by ordering froma pharmacy?
It seems so simple, but todayit's just this incredible piece
(21:13):
of history.
So I'm gonna play their trailernow, but I really hope you're
gonna check out Densho's Kampu.
SPEAKER_00 (21:19):
Seiji Tsuji was finally leaving.
Not that he really had a placeto go.
For three years behind barbedwire, Seiji received a train
ticket to wherever he wanted,shipping for whatever belongings
he had left, and$25.
Like most of the people who wereleaving, he didn't have much
anymore.
He'd lost, among other things,the car, the tractor, and the
(21:40):
farm where he'd raised fourchildren and buried another.
Still, during his last few daysat Heart Mountain, he fashioned
scrap wood into boxes, packedthem with care, hammered them
shut.
They were so heavy the soldierscould barely lift them onto the
truck.
It feels like rocks, one of themcomplained.
(22:00):
He was right.
When Seiji's wife asked him whyhe had packed crits of rocks, he
told her he thought they werebeautiful.
From Den Show, I'm HannaMaruyama, and this is Kampo.
SPEAKER_01 (22:21):
Season one of History for the Reckoning is
made possible by support fromthe JACL Mount Olympus chapter,
as well as generous financialsupport from the Takahashi
Family Foundation and the JACommunity Foundation.
The music was produced byPatrick Coffin.
If you want to support the show,follow us on Instagram at
History for the Reckoning.
Sign up for our newsletter atHistory for the Reckoning on
(22:44):
Substack, where you'll also findthe show notes for each episode,
or support us financiallythrough Patreon at
patreon.comslash History for theReckoning.
This is History for the Reckoning, a podcast that
dives deep into the historythat's hard to hear but critical
to understand.
Season one, AmericanConcentration Camps, the story
of World War II JapaneseIncarceration.
Welcome to another addendaepisode of the podcast.
I'd like to say a huge thank youto Chizo Amori for coming on
(00:23):
because she, as someone who isserved a survivor, someone who's
been through these events, it'sreally special to get her
testimony, to get her stories,and be able to hear from someone
firsthand that it just provesthat these things really
happened when you talk tosomeone that lived through them.
These things weren't that longago.
These things can still happentoday.
So thank you again, Chizu.
I'd like to talk in this addendaepisode about the JACL.
(00:46):
So we mentioned in past episodeshow the JACL, this organization
called the Japanese AmericanCitizens League, JACL, uh, were
leaders in the community thatare made up of Nisei, so not the
immigrant generation, Americancitizens, the second generation.
And that uh after the Esei hadbeen rounded up by the FBI,
there was a power vacuum there,and the JACL was the most
(01:07):
prominent organization that camealong to fill it and to lead and
represent the Japanese Americancommunity to the nation and to
the government.
But we also mentioned how uhtheir policy was to cooperate
with the government in thesethings that we feel are really
objectionable today.
So let's talk about exactly whatthey did during the war, what
their legacy is, and whatthey're doing now.
(01:28):
So the JSEL was formed in 1929.
Like I said, it was led by Esei,so well sorry, it was led by
NISAI.
Interestingly, in 1990, the JSELpublished a report.
They'd hired a historian namedDeborah K.
Lim as a researcher toinvestigate what the JSCL did
during the war.
They chose to do this, they didnot, they were not forced to do
(01:50):
this, but there are many rumorsabout what the JSCL had done in
relation to the governmentduring the war, so they wanted
it to be all out in the open.
And thankfully, Frank Abe, whowe're gonna hear from in a
future episode, he'll be one ofour guests, has made the entire
report that Deborah Kim Limprepared available on his
website, resistors.com.
So I'm going to be referencingit heavily and going through
(02:11):
each major section of the reportthroughout this episode.
So, first in the pre-war period,uh there were times when the FBI
clearly reached out to the JCLand were asking for intelligence
on specific individuals.
They'd go, like, tell us alittle bit about person X, and
it seems like the JSCL didcooperate in those things.
They claim they didn't giveadditional information.
(02:32):
There wasn't a witch hunt, theyweren't trying to go uh deep and
like rat out people, but they doadmit that they responded to the
FBI and naval intelligence whenthey had questions in the
pre-war period.
So the next section is about theresponse to Pearl Harbor.
So after Pearl Harbor, obviouslyhuge events, both for the
country but also in the JapaneseAmerican community, and the JACL
(02:54):
kind of went into overdrive atthat point.
So uh many regions that the JCLwere divided into formed really
special committees that wereeven more zealous for supporting
American causes and trying toshow loyalty to the American
government.
The most famous one is calledthe Anti-Axis Committee.
They pledged loyalty immediatelyto the country, to the
president, and they reached outto various authorities to pledge
(03:17):
support, to offer help.
There's even this uh quote thatcame out over the radio at the
time from the JSCL.
It said, Quote, We are allAmericans, pledge to the defense
of the United States.
Any disloyal act or word by anyJapanese or American citizen of
Japanese descent harms theUnited States.
As Americans, we now function ascounter-espionage.
(03:38):
Any act or word prejudicial tothe United States committed by
any Japanese must be warned andreported to the FBI, naval
intelligence, sheriff's office,and local police.
Any menace to the security ofour country must be thoroughly
and completely wiped out, closequote.
So they were particularlydistrusting of the kibe.
You remember from a previousaddenda, the kibe are those who
(04:02):
were American citizens but hadbeen educated in Japan, and many
in the leadership of the JCLwere particularly suspicious of
them, and at this time furnisheda list of the kibe to the FBI,
these people that they thoughtshould get particular notice by
the FBI.
So the next section is responseto military orders and the
curfew.
So remember, after Pearl Harbor,military orders came down on the
(04:24):
West Coast, often thatparticularly affected or
particularly applied to those ofJapanese descent.
So let's introduce here MikeMasaoka.
He was one of the leaders in theJSEL throughout this period and
even after this period.
He was from Salt Lake City, sothe orders didn't affect him
personally, but he was a bigmover and shaker in the JSEL,
and a lot of his influence isseen in this entire report, this
(04:48):
entire period.
So a lot of the quotes that I'llbe pulling out are directly from
him.
A lot of the memos had his nameon them, even if he wasn't the
primary author, he was a part ofit.
Uh at this time he floated theidea of a suicide battalion.
So this did not come to be, butthere is evidence that he
actually did float it toauthorities as an idea.
(05:09):
The idea being that why don't wedraft a whole bunch of uh
Japanese Americans to besoldiers?
Because he really felt likegoing into the military,
fighting for your country wouldprove their loyalty, and to make
sure that they stayed on task,that they are loyal, loyal,
we're gonna keep their familiesas these hostages.
So we're gonna put these men inhorrifically dangerous
(05:31):
situations, so it's kind of likethey're always on a suicide
mission.
To make sure that they followorders, we're gonna keep their
families hostage.
So a really alarming, awfulthing to suggest, it did not
come to be, but what did come tobe is that when the American
government did recruit JapaneseAmericans, even draft them, they
put them into a segregated unitthat was only Japanese
(05:51):
Americans, and when they weresent over to Europe to fight the
Nazis, they were put inparticularly dangerous missions
and were given orders that putthem in harm's way.
It's arguable, but I think theywere genuinely put in harm's way
more than their whitecounterparts would have been.
So it might be that there's aholdover from the suggestion
that Mike Masaoka made.
(06:12):
So the JCL were consulted as uhthese orders were put in place
as the suggestion that all ofJapanese Americans were going to
be forcibly removed from theWest Coast, the JCL were able to
give their thoughts, give theirfeedback.
In fact, Mike Masooka testifiedbefore Congress on the matter in
March of 1942, saying, quote,with any policy of evacuation
(06:32):
definitively arising fromreasons of military necessity
and national safety, we are incomplete agreement.
As American citizens, we cannotand should not take any other
stand.
But also, as American citizensbelieving in the integrity of
our citizenship, we feel thatany evacuation enforced on
grounds violating that integrityshould be opposed.
(06:54):
So the the party line, the JCLstance, was that they'd
cooperate with what thegovernment wanted, but they
wanted rights respected.
In particular, they had memosabout how they expected that if
these orders came down, theywould not just be applied based
on race, that they would beapplied to, for instance, all
those who were descended fromenemies of uh the United States
at that time.
So it would include Italians, itwould include Germans, that that
(07:17):
did not end up happening.
But their official stance was uhwe will totally cooperate, but
we want you to respectindividual rights and we want
this to be done in an orderlyway.
They really felt that thatcooperation was going to help
their community later.
In particular, it'd score likepoints so that they could
influence the conditions thatwould be affected later, that
they could try to make things asgood as possible.
(07:37):
So the next section is actionsinitiated in the community,
which is to say the USgovernment didn't make them do
this, the JACL chose to do itthemselves.
The biggest one is the KiBaysurvey.
So we mentioned how theyfurnished a list to the
government of here's all thekibay, those who've been
educated in Japan, but areAmerican citizens.
The JACL at this point took it astep farther.
(07:59):
They chose to do an in-depthsurvey of all the kibay.
They really distrusted them.
So this was things like uhdetailed demographics of the
kibay, where they live, theirhobbies, all these kinds of
things.
They sent it out to all of theirchapters and expected every
chapter to fill out informationabout all the kibe in their
chapters, but I think also intheir communities, they really
(08:19):
wanted to take a survey of allthe kibay and expected this to
happen.
There are also accusations ofthis time that the the Nisei and
JSCL in particular were takingadvantage of the tough spot that
Isei were in.
Like maybe anisei father hadbeen removed from the home, now
the wife's in a tough position,or that these Isei maybe they
didn't have the languageability, or because they weren't
citizens, they lacked certain uhrights.
(08:42):
And so there's this accusationthat they're being taken
advantage of by giving, like,well, one accusation was like uh
Nisei might step in and takeover a business, take over
property, that kind of thing,and leave these effectively
widows, these women whosehusbands have been taken away
without any recourse, leave themout in the cold.
The report does not give directevidence of that kind of thing
happening, doesn't mean thatdidn't happen.
But one thing that came up a lotwas this accusation of Issei
(09:05):
might go to the JCL and look forhelp.
So, like legal help, things liketravel orders, the ability to uh
voluntarily leave the state ofCalifornia, the West Coast, and
that the JCL were accused ofcharging them exorbitant fees to
do this kind of thing.
Based on the report, it's notclear that this happened at all.
It probably did, because there'senough stories from different
(09:25):
places that makes it sound likethis definitely happened, but it
is pretty clear that this wasnot JSCL policy.
It was pretty clearly denied bythe JSCL at the time.
The next section is the JCLposition on legal test cases.
So as uh these orders werecoming down before the force
removal, like curfews, like theinability for people to travel,
(09:46):
military orders, and then as theforce removal happened, it was
pretty clear to a lot of peoplein the community that this was
unconstitutional.
These kinds of orders would notstand up in court, and so there
were several people that wantedto make legal test cases.
Let's purposely break theseorders so that it can go to
court and we can prove by infront of a judge, in front of a
jury, that these things areunconstitutional and have it all
(10:08):
struck down.
The JACL was very against doingthis kind of thing.
They thought that biting backwas going to make the entire
community look bad.
The J ACL position was let'sjust cooperate.
We know that it's ridiculous.
We know that maybe they wouldn'teven hold in court, but we
insist on cooperating to looklike loyal Americans.
One note that I'll put there isthat the ACLU also refused to
(10:31):
take up these test cases.
So the ACLU, the American CivilLiberties League, who is very
famous for uh defending thecivil liberties of American
citizens through the law, werealso not on the side of testing
these orders against theJapanese Americans at this time.
I guess another no on that isthat ultimately, when these test
cases did start to come out, andwe're going to cover those in
(10:53):
future episodes, these casesthat went before the Supreme
Court that challenged thelegality of these orders against
the Japanese American community,the JSCL did deliver amicus
briefs in some of these cases.
So you could say their stancechanged, turned around, at least
became more nuanced, and theydid try to offer some support to
these cases as they went on.
(11:13):
So next is their relationshipwith the War Relocation
Authority and other governmentagencies.
So the War Relocation Authority,WRA, was the organization that
set up the camps, that hadeveryone moved into the camps,
had to take care of them oncethey were there.
They were the jailers, I guessyou'd say.
So there was clearly a closerelationship between the JCL and
the WRA.
(11:33):
JSCL members had preferredpositions within the camps.
They had these trusted positionsin the camps.
So this started to really makepeople in camp angry.
It started to feel like the JSCLwere completely selling out the
rest of the Japanese Americancommunity for their own benefit.
They were getting thesepreferred positions.
What's most troubling is theassertion by Deborah Lim that
(11:54):
some of these JSCL leaders wereliterally on the WRA payroll.
But from my reading of it, in myopinion, the evidence she cites
doesn't directly support that.
Although it's bad enough that itis clear that these JSCL
leaders, Mike Masoka included,had great influence within the
WRA.
So they submitted a lot of memoswith like their suggestions for
(12:15):
what should be WRA policy.
And in a lot of cases, that didend up becoming WRA policy.
So I don't think they wereliterally on the payroll, but I
think they were doing things asthough they were on the payroll
regardless.
That they were really trying tomake things happen that
ultimately did happen.
So one of those things is likethe suggestion of segregating
those that were thought to betroublemakers, which did come
(12:37):
out later.
One bombshell that Deborah Limbthrows out in the report is how
the JCL oversold their influenceto the government.
They said they had many moremembers that they did than they
actually did.
They said they were moreinfluential within the community
and were respected, morepowerful than they actually
were.
That's very interesting that shewas able to find evidence of
(12:57):
that inside it.
So the JCL also helped withrecruiting soldiers once the
government wanted the Nisei,these American citizens, to join
the military.
The JCL was convinced, and theywere probably ultimately right
about this, that the greatestway to prove loyalty, to make
the rest of America trustJapanese Americans, was to show
them fighting and dying justlike all other Americans for
(13:17):
their country.
They thought it was going to bea very good look.
At this point, they alsocomplained when these JA,
Japanese American soldiers, weretreated badly.
So there was an instance wherelike the president of the United
States was going to be goingthrough a camp, and at that
camp, the military leaders toldall of the Japanese American
soldiers, stay in your barracks.
We don't want the president tosee you.
(13:38):
And the JSEL did make a formalcomplaint about that.
Alright, the next section isabout activities in the camp.
So it is clear that the JSCL wasclose to camp administration.
They were the most likely to be,you could say, like sucking up,
but like bending the knee tocamp authority because this was
an extension of bending the kneeto all American government
policy to look like goodcitizens, like they were
(13:59):
cooperating.
There was definitely a fewnotable individuals that would
make reports on their fellowprisoners in the camps, like
they were ratting out the peoplethat were incarcerated with
them.
It's not clear exactly howwidespread this was.
And in fact, in the report,Deborah Lynn points out that uh
the government themselvesadmitted that a lot of the
information wasn't that helpful.
(14:20):
They didn't get as much as maybethey were hoping, but it
definitely happened.
So because it definitelyhappened, that caused a lot of
tension.
So, in particular in Manzanar,we mentioned the Manzanar riot
in a previous addenda, how thesetensions around the JSCL members
are getting preferred positionsin the camp, like they're
getting the better jobs.
So it seems to be also acorrelation where we suspect
(14:41):
that these JSCL members arereporting on us, they're trying
to sell out their own community,and that ended up with violence
against these JSCL members,ultimately the Manzanar riot.
So the JSCLs here, support ofmilitary service became public,
and some in the camps saw thatas a betrayal.
So it's like we've been lockedinside these concentration
camps, and now you're supportingthe government who wants us to
(15:04):
go and die for them afterthey've taken away our
constitutional rights.
It was seen as a betrayal bysome.
So after the loyalty oath wasadministered, which we've
touched on in previous episodes,uh, the government trying to use
a piece of paper to say, oh,we've we've already told the
entire US population that thesepeople are untrustworthy.
We need some kind of like rubberstamp to say, oh, they're
(15:25):
trustworthy enough that theirsons can be drafted into the
military.
So they gave out this loyaltyquestionnaire.
And there are two famousquestions on there that people
found objectionable and theyrightly did.
And sometimes people chose totake a moral stance and say no
and no to those two questions,which we're we're gonna talk
about the loyalty questionnairein depth later.
But suffice to say, some peopletook a stance and said no no to
(15:49):
two particularly objectionablequestions on that survey.
They were called no-nos.
And the JSEL stance was that weshould segregate these people,
that they inherently had becomedisloyal, or at least their
loyalty was in question forhaving made that stance, and
they had forfeited their rightsto be among the rest of the
populace that needed to besegregated.
What is interesting, at the sametime, they did not think that
(16:11):
this level of disloyalty wastantamount to these people
forfeiting their Americancitizenship.
So they still thought thesepeople have rights, but they
have made a they've taken astance that makes them
inherently untrustworthy.
We should segregate them.
And that happened in Thule Lake,which we've touched on a little
bit before, the prison within aprison, the maximum security
camp, as some have called it.
So finally, in the report, uhDeborah K.
(16:33):
Lynn put out is the position onaction on those resistors.
So within the camps, we're gonnatouch on this when Frank Abe
comes on the show.
Or he's not gonna touch on it,we're gonna talk a lot when
Frank Abe comes on the show,those who chose to resist these
government actions.
And the position of the JCL wasthat was a hard no, like anyone
who tried to resist,particularly the draft.
(16:54):
So I will point out that theyhad read the Pulse of America
correctly.
The rest of American society atthis time felt like draft
dodging was the most awful thingthat you could possibly do.
America was like, we're in awar, we're all on the same team
here, everybody bear get onboard.
If you're drafted, you gotta go.
There's absolutely noalternative.
Uh, and so the JCL took a reallyblack and white view of this
(17:17):
stance.
The people who chose to resistthe draft, as in not show up for
their draft appointments in thecamps, most of them did it as a
principled stand.
This was their best way ofprotesting the treatment that
they had received when theirconstitutional rights were taken
away and they were put in theseconcentration camps.
But the JCL did not see it thatway.
They saw it as you guys areputting this entire community as
(17:39):
risk by choosing to do thisthing, the rest of society is
gonna think makes us look so, soawful.
So how you dare you do that?
We're gonna throw the book atyou.
They really wanted these peopleto be put down, convinced of the
error of their ways, that kindof thing.
So that ends the Deborah K.
Limb Report.
Now you might think this allsounds pretty damning, and I'd
agree it was.
(17:59):
Like, I completely disagree withthe JACL's stance on most of
these things during the wartime.
As Emily Inouway Huey pointedout in her interview, a lot of
these actions were taken becausethe JACL desperately wanted the
American public to see JapaneseAmericans as loyal despite being
of Japanese descent.
I think they went about it thewrong way, but they really felt
(18:21):
it was the right action at thetime.
I will point out that after thewar, the JCL has, to a much
greater degree, I think, livedup to their ideals as a civil
rights organization.
So they've supported civilrights efforts in many arenas.
Uh the Denshow.com article onthe JCL mentions that, quote,
JACL lawyers also wrote briefsin support of ending segregation
(18:42):
in schools in the case of Brownv.
Board of Education, and in favorof ending restrictions against
interracial marriage in the caseof Loving v.
Virginia.
So, close quote.
They worked hard to elevate andshowcase the Nisei veterans as
well.
So during the war, they thoughtthat these people going to war
was going to make the communitylook good.
Afterward, they really tried topump up these stories and show
(19:03):
how great and revered thesepeople were who had chosen to
put their lives on the line forour country.
Most notably, I'd say, theyspearheaded the reparations
movement, which we'll cover in afuture episode.
So that was the major reckoningof the US government with what
they had done to the Japaneseand Japanese Americans during
the war that ended in an apologyand reparations being paid to
(19:25):
these people.
The Japanese American CitizensLeague was big enough, connected
enough, had the legal acumen tomove that forward, and they they
did so, even though you couldlook back on this episode and
think that some of the problemsthey had directly caused, but
they did try to make up for it.
So today the JSEL, which I am amember of, is very active in
fighting for justice, for civilrights, both in the JA community
(19:48):
and without.
And at this point, I am proud tobe a member of it.
I think they're doing great worktoday.
Okay, thank you for joining meon that deep dive about the JACL
during World War II.
I'd like to point you now toanother podcast that I highly
recommend called Kampu.
That's produced by Densho.
It is also about theincarceration of Japanese
Americans during World War II.
(20:09):
This comes from Densho, thisincredible historical archival
organization that is documentingthe Japanese American experience
through history, has so manyoral histories.
I reference so many of theirthings in the creation of this
podcast as I've been learningabout the Japanese American
experience.
So highly recommend them justfor their resources at
densho.org, but also theirpodcast Kampu, which is going
(20:31):
through the daily life withinthese concentration camps.
So everything that you wanted toknow that we didn't cover in my
interview with Chizu, they coverin Kampu.
So I highly recommend it.
But one amazing story from itthat I loved, again, it's
because it's talking about dailylife.
What were the realities of beingin a camp for years and years?
Was outside of the camp therewas a pharmacy that was being
(20:52):
remodeled.
When they tore down one of thewalls, they found a bunch of
these receipts and order formsfrom those that were in the
concentration camp.
So suddenly you get this peekbehind the curtain.
What were people ordering?
What did they want?
What did they need?
What were influencing theirdaily realities that they tried
to make up for by ordering froma pharmacy?
It seems so simple, but todayit's just this incredible piece
(21:13):
of history.
So I'm gonna play their trailernow, but I really hope you're
gonna check out Densho's Kampu.
SPEAKER_00 (21:19):
Seiji Tsuji was finally leaving.
Not that he really had a placeto go.
For three years behind barbedwire, Seiji received a train
ticket to wherever he wanted,shipping for whatever belongings
he had left, and$25.
Like most of the people who wereleaving, he didn't have much
anymore.
He'd lost, among other things,the car, the tractor, and the
(21:40):
farm where he'd raised fourchildren and buried another.
Still, during his last few daysat Heart Mountain, he fashioned
scrap wood into boxes, packedthem with care, hammered them
shut.
They were so heavy the soldierscould barely lift them onto the
truck.
It feels like rocks, one of themcomplained.
(22:00):
He was right.
When Seiji's wife asked him whyhe had packed crits of rocks, he
told her he thought they werebeautiful.
From Den Show, I'm HannaMaruyama, and this is Kampo.
SPEAKER_01 (22:21):
Season one of History for the Reckoning is
made possible by support fromthe JACL Mount Olympus chapter,
as well as generous financialsupport from the Takahashi
Family Foundation and the JACommunity Foundation.
The music was produced byPatrick Coffin.
If you want to support the show,follow us on Instagram at
History for the Reckoning.
Sign up for our newsletter atHistory for the Reckoning on
(22:44):
Substack, where you'll also findthe show notes for each episode,
or support us financiallythrough Patreon at
patreon.comslash History for theReckoning.
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