May 19, 2025 • 33 mins
Attorney Rob Webb gets down to the hard truths of HOA leadership. Are you ready to hear them?
✅ Is a Reserve Study right for you? 👉 https://www.reservestudy.com/
Are you ready to face the hard truths of HOA leadership? In this episode, Attorney Rob Webb and Robert break down the key challenges board members face, from familiarity blindness to zombie resorts. Learn how to navigate boardroom politics, build real trust, and lead your association with integrity. This is the unfiltered truth about what it takes to serve your community right!
Get in contact with Rob Webb: bakerlaw.com
Chapters From Today's Episode:
00:00 How Does Trust Impact HOA Leadership?
00:30 Why Familiarity Blindness Hurts Board Decision-Making
04:46 Why Do Short-Term Board Members Struggle?
07:08 How Do HOA Politics Affect Decision-Making?
08:44 What Can We Learn from Condo Deconversions?
11:20 How Should Boards Think About Different Perspectives?
14:10 What Are Zombie Resorts and Why Are They Dangerous?
15:46 Why Is "Trust But Verify" Critical in HOA Leadership
18:08 How Should HOAs Manage Service Providers and Vendors?
21:22 How Can Better Communication Lower Boardroom Tension?
22:51 Why Is It So Hard to Find Great HOA Board Members?
25:42 What Are the True Costs of Poor Leadership?
28:07 How Do Different Perspectives Create Stronger HOAs?
30:01 What Should HOAs Consider About Termination?
31:26 Where Can You Reach Out to Rob Webb for More Insights?
The views & opinions expressed in this program are those of the Hosts & Guests, intended to provide general education about the community association industry. The content is not intended to provide specific advice or recommendations for any individual or organization. Please seek advice from licensed professionals.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rob Webb (00:00):
Seek the advice of knowledgeable experts where you
(00:03):
do not have particular expertiseand rely on them to the extent
that you reasonably believethey're reliable. And if you've
got a board of directors thatdoesn't trust its manager,
doesn't like its manager,doesn't believe its manager,
then that is a situation doesn'tmatter who's right and who's
(00:25):
wrong. That's a situation that'shidden for problems.
Announcer (00:30):
HOA Insights is brought to you by five companies
that care about board members,Association Insights and
Marketplace AssociationReserves, Community Financials,
Hoa Invest and Kevin DavisInsurance Services. You'll find
links to their websites andsocial media in the show notes.
Robert Nordlund (00:45):
Welcome back to Hoa Insights
Common Areas. I'm RobertNordlund, and I'm here today for
episode number 106 with aspecial guest that I heard speak
at a conference last year, and Iimmediately thought that would
be a great guy to have as aguest for our podcast audience.
So today I have the good fortuneto have Rob Webb on the program.
Rob is a Florida attorney. Hecurrently serves as director,
(01:09):
secretary and associationgeneral counsel for Arda, which
is the American resortDevelopment Association. Now for
those of you in the residentialcommunity association world.
Arda is the resort or vacationownership version of Cai, the
National Trade Organization.
Rob's also active in his privatepractice, with all the normal
(01:30):
and crazy things that happen atan association on a daily and
weekly basis. Well, this is afollow up to episode number 105
with regular co host JulieAdelman, where it's always a
treat to hear what she's doingand learning from a consultant
point of view, helping boardsand communities to thrive. And
if you missed that episode orany other prior episode, take a
(01:51):
moment after today's program tolisten from our podcast website,
Hoa insights.org, or watch onour YouTube channel, but better
yet, subscribe from any of themajor podcast platforms so you
don't miss any future episodes.
And those of you watching onYouTube can see the HOA insights
(02:12):
log that I have here that I gotfrom our merch store, which you
can browse through from the HOAinsights.org website, or the
link in our show notes, you'llfind that we have some great
free stuff, like board memberszoom backgrounds and some
specialty items for sale, likethis mug. So go with the merch
(02:32):
store. Download a free zoombackground for your next Zoom
meeting. Take a moment lookaround, find the mug you'd like
and email me atpodcast@reservestudy.com with
your name, shipping address, mugchoice, mentioning episode 106,
mug giveaway, and if you're the10th person to email me, I'll
ship that mug to you free ofcharge. Well, we enjoy hearing
(02:55):
from you responding to theissues you're facing at your
association. So if you have ahot topic, a crazy story, or a
question you'd like us toaddress. You can contact us at
805-203-3130, or email us atpodcast at reserve study.com and
this episode was prompted by aquestion from Julie in Sarasota,
(03:20):
who asked Sarasota Florida, whoasked our Florida condo
association is facing somefinancial pressure due to
insurance and the new reservestudy legislation? Is this going
to affect my two timeshares? SoI thought this would be a great
episode to have a FloridaCommunity Association vacation
(03:40):
ownership specialist, attorneyon the program. So Rob, welcome
and what would you answer toJulie?
Rob Webb (03:48):
Thank you very much.
It's a pleasure to be here,Julie, I would say, depending on
the financial health of yourassociation and your current
state of compliance with the newcondo laws, it could affect your
two time shares incrediblynegatively, or it may not really
impact you at all. If yourassociation has been thoughtful
(04:13):
in planning for the structuralreserve requirements and other
recent changes to the condo law,then hopefully it's simply a
matter of increased assessmentsand smart collection planning,
and the impact will be minimal.
(04:33):
If your association is wringingits hands because it doesn't
even know where to start or hasother reasons to believe it
can't comply with the law. Thatcould be a very dangerous
situation indeed.
Robert Nordlund (04:47):
My listeners know I come from the reserve
study point of view. Thereserves are the big ticket
items, the big ticket items thatyou would like to have years and
years and years of financialpreparation to get ready for so
you're. Not hearing about aleaky roof and saying, Oh no,
what are we going to do? And Ithink Rob that from your point
of view, that's got to be evenbigger and bigger for vacation
(05:10):
ownership resorts, where notonly are you dealing with the
roof, but you're dealing withall those unit interior assets,
the flooring, the carpeting, thekitchen remodels, all that kind
of stuff. So the reserveprojects at timeshares, at
vacation ownership resorts kindof be just huge. Yes,
Rob Webb (05:29):
they are. And the modern vacation ownership
industry, I would split it intofour pieces. One piece has a
well capitalized public companyor well capitalized private,
independent developers, veryprofessional management, and
(05:49):
they continue to sell. And afterthey're finished, basically
selling out one resort, theycontinue to have a presence
because they're selling otherresorts or a vacation club or
multi site, and they tend to bewell reserved, well maintained,
and they don't really havedifficulties, and they show us
(06:13):
the very best of what timesharecan Be. Then you have older
resorts that are not managed bya public company affiliate, but
very professional managementnotwithstanding, there are
several of those in Floridaalone, and they and their boards
(06:34):
have a good relationship, verytransparent. They communicate
well with their owners. Theirowners understand why
assessments are going up andwhere the money's going. They're
also in pretty good shape. Thenyour last two categories are,
unfortunately, older resorts,primarily, but not all, but
(06:55):
older resorts that have noprofessional manager, have no
developer or resale program.
They're doing the best they can.
This isn't an indictment of theboard members by any stretch of
the imagination. Yeah. Well,
Robert Nordlund (07:08):
most board members are short term people
that they inherited a problem.
Rob Webb (07:12):
You know that that's true. I think of many condo
associations, but timesharecondo associations and regular
timeshare associations, if theplace is run, well, it's
difficult to find volunteers forthe board, because there's
really no problems. It's even ifI should show up for meeting, we
(07:33):
had to reduce our quorum,legislatively, 15% for the
purpose of electing boards, nomatter what your quorum is in
your documents, because wecouldn't get anything done
otherwise. So that's a blessingif that's happening, even though
it's frustrating, because youwant to encourage participation.
(07:53):
And then you have the fourthcategory. I'm going to use a
euphemism that's not verycomplimentary, but I think it's
very descriptive, and that'szombie resorts, resorts that are
in a financial death spiral, andcorners are cut just about
everywhere to try to keep thedoors open. Again. It's not an
(08:14):
indictment, necessarily, of theboard members, unless they've
been there for a long time, andeven then, board members are
under pressure from owners don'traise our assessments. I can't
afford more. Those need to die.
And that's part of what I wantto talk with you about today, is
if you look at the life cycle ofour shared ownership industry,
(08:37):
we're not doing a very good jobwith that last part.
Robert Nordlund (08:44):
Rob, I don't know how much homework I
assigned you or how much youdid, but our very first episode
was with some attorneys who weretalking about condo
deconversion, and I wanted to dothat as one of our initial
episodes, because when you geton an airplane, the flight
attendants tell you what theemergency procedures are, what
(09:06):
the emergency exit is. And I seethe deconversion, or as
basically the emergency exitwhen it's failing, you need to
find a way out is that a littlebit of what you're talking about
it
Rob Webb (09:20):
is. And 40 to 45 years ago, when I started in time
sharing, I started as a lawyer,45 years ago in Orlando,
Florida, the condo markets hadcollapsed in Florida, Nevada,
Arizona, California and Hawaii,and there were a bunch of whole
(09:42):
ownership condos that no onecould sell or finance. They were
just laying around, andtimeshare was one of the devices
people turned to as a workoutdevice. Spoiler alert, it's not
a workout device, but through ahappy set of of. Occurrences. A
(10:02):
lot of it was sold, and eventhough it wasn't sold well, and
even though we didn't haveprofessional managers that
understood the things that maketimeshare very different from
both whole ownership condo andhotel. It's a mixture of the
two, but it has its many of itsown issues, not withstanding all
(10:22):
the things we weren't doingright. People loved it, but the
lenders in those days said weare not going to loan the
developer money if there is anychance this thing's going to be
terminated while any of ourloans are outstanding. That's
why most old time perioddeclarations in Florida and
(10:43):
elsewhere require 100% consentto terminate the timeshare. Now
that's not true in every case,and there are some that have
other methods of termination,but we had no idea I counted
myself. I was young associate. Iwas copying other people's
documents and then amending themas I thought they were
(11:03):
necessary. And you know, thathas brought us to the problem we
have today. Whole ownership hasit as well, but whole ownership
has it for
Unknown (11:12):
different reasons. I want to follow up on your first
category, and if I'm giving youtoo much of an explanation, just
cut me off.
Robert Nordlund (11:20):
Okay, well, you got me taking notes, and my
brain is spinning, and that'salways a good thing. You talked
about the first category. Firstcategory is well capitalized
developer, continued presence, Ithink, major brand, and at that
major brand, they also runhotels. So could we take a step
further to say they're hotels?
There's well run vacationownership, and then it blends
(11:43):
down all the way to Mom and Poporganizations that weren't run.
Well, that's your category one.
And then that almost blends intothe whole ownership, residential
condominium association worldwhere people live, and it
becomes their home. Andsometimes you don't see things
(12:05):
because of what we callfamiliarity blindness. You since
you see it every day when youwalk from your car to your
mailbox to your front door, youdon't see that crack in the
sidewalk. All of a sudden,things creep up on you and you
miss so is that can is thatfair? Is that that may be a dead
end? I shouldn't I probablyshouldn't have gone down that
(12:27):
path. I
Rob Webb (12:27):
think it certainly is one way to look at it, because I
like to look at issues as ifthey're laying on a dining room
table, and there are eightchairs or 10 chairs around the
table, and each chair you moveto gives you a different
perspective. It's interesting,though, that you mentioned
familiarity blindness, becausein what I'll call homestead
(12:48):
condominiums, where people livethere, including the directors,
everyone, even if they'remissing that crack in the
sidewalk, everyone has aconstant opportunity to assess
the physical and financialhealth of this investment of
their home, and most of the lawsare actually written to protect
(13:11):
purchasers and associations forthose whole ownership
condominiums. Part of thefrustration we have its
temperature industry is thatmany of them simply aren't
applicable to timeshare. And ifyou look through the condominium
Act, which is a bit of aFrankenstein of its own, this
doesn't apply, yeah, Floridacondo act, this doesn't apply to
(13:33):
time condominiums, right? But,yeah, I think that's pretty
fair. That's pretty fair withtimes, sure. Communist. You
know, our directors don't livethere, and we get them
sometimes, if you'll pay forthem, they'll come to the resort
for a week and then have theirmeetings. But it more and more,
they're on Zoom, so they're notthere all the time. So it's
(13:57):
almost the opposite problem.
They don't have a chance to seethe crack. And when they're
there, there are too manythings, sensory overload. So
it's like many of the issuesbetween timeshare and whole
ownership, it's inverse.
Robert Nordlund (14:11):
So the timeshare boards have the
opposite problem, that they'renot aware or wow, if they're
sharing, then maybe they haven'tbeen there in five years because
they've been to another placefor the last four years and
they've lost track. You've gotit interesting. Okay? What's it
like? What are the challengesyou see for timeshare board
(14:33):
members? Otherwise, I wouldthink that they're interfacing
with a major brand, whichhopefully is an incredibly great
assistant who is laying thedecision points on a platter for
them. Is that does that makebeing a board member easier or
harder?
Rob Webb (14:52):
It depends on whether you're trusting the advice
you're getting from that manageror other fiduciary. Okay, board
members directors of any nonprofit corporation owe fiduciary
duties, which is the highestlevel of duty owed in agency
law. Some of the things it meansin this context are seek the
(15:15):
advice of knowledgeable expertswhere you do not have particular
expertise and rely on them tothe extent that you reasonably
believe they're reliable. Thisis really important. And if
you've got a board of directorsthat doesn't trust its manager,
(15:35):
doesn't like its manager,doesn't believe its manager,
then that is a situation doesn'tmatter who's right and who's
wrong. That's a situation that'sheading for problems.
Robert Nordlund (15:46):
We had a podcast episode just a few weeks
ago where the guest expert wastalking about trust but verify,
and I first learned that phraselong ago because of Ronald
Reagan, and he was interfacingwith the Soviets, and, you know,
very important discussions, andespecially at resort
(16:08):
associations. Those budgets arebig, and the strategic plans
that you lay out theimplications of what are we
going to do? Those are bigdecisions, and you need to trust
and maybe you need to ask thatextra question, to say, can you
clarify that? Why do you think?
But so maybe respectfully, justpress them a little bit. Is that
(16:30):
what you're talking about? It
Rob Webb (16:33):
is, but before you can even do that, you have to be
well informed in the premises.
In other words, you have tounderstand the budget. You have
to understand what the lineitems include, and don't
include. Some resorts have suchsummary budgets. You know, one
page, maybe half a page, full ofline items, very, very, very
(16:55):
broad in general, that's notagainst the law. It is just
inadvisable from a director'sperspective, because you don't
know what's in that. And thenwhen you laid the two directors
should ask, Oh, here's the 2025budget. Can you lay it next to
the 2024 budget and give me aper line item variance? That is
(17:17):
a basic request, they should bevery happy to do that. If your
budget is that half page, youknow, 18 line item thing where
everything's bunched together.
How are you going to understandthe variance? You could say,
well, what is that? Oh, we hadhigher employment costs. Our
(17:39):
insurance went up, and that'swhere most people stop. In my
opinion, that is not a directordoing her job. Directors need to
say, No, I need more exactlywhat went up what budget for
guesses we get that. Where didyou guess wrong? Where did you
get right? Give us advice onwhat we're going to need to do
(18:02):
to refine those guesses basedupon last year's experience that
is a director doing her job. I
Robert Nordlund (18:08):
like that getting down to a granular
level, so it's not justutilities, but the electric, the
water and then staffing. You maynot need to know a person
salary. But you need to know,how much do you have eight
people on the landscaping staff,or do you have 24 how many
(18:29):
housekeeping staff do you have?
All these kinds of things whereyou're seeing what's happening?
Are we getting more efficient?
What is the miscellaneous isthat the walkie talkies are
people using cell phones, lotsof things that help you
understand what is going on atour resort.
Rob Webb (18:45):
It's very important to understand the difference
between direct provision ofservices by the association
through its employees and thirdparty contracted services, both
of the examples you gave,landscaping and housekeeping can
be done either way, right? Andif it's a third party service,
(19:07):
don't be satisfied with, oh,they're telling us it's going to
be 5% more this year becausetheir costs went up. Okay? What
costs went up and do we need toput it back out for bid? And a
manager that's not ready toanswer at least the first round
of those questions withoutresearch, is a manager that's
(19:27):
not doing a very good job. In myopinion,
Robert Nordlund (19:30):
I like that.
There's a board memberresponsibility, there's a magic
responsibility, and it's a teamthat works together for the
success of the property itself.
And that would be the same, I'dimagine, yeah, whether it's a
resort or
Rob Webb (19:47):
whole ownership, yes, that's true. In whole ownership,
you have addition, you have oneadditional danger that you
really don't tend to have attimeshare resorts, although
there are notable exceptions andthat. Is politics. The politics
of the board in a residentialcondominium are so much more
(20:09):
palpable, so much more impactfulon the overall operation of the
association and the condominium,whether it's board members that
genuinely aren't listening totheir owners, or owners that
aren't paying attention, andthey tend to lay everything off
on Well, that's the board'sproblem, and we can't vote them
(20:31):
off. Usually the truth lies inbetween just about any two
points. But I think I know thatmy friends that are managing
whole ownership condominiumstell me that they need to work
much harder on transparency,much harder on making sure the
board is informed, and muchharder on giving interim
(20:54):
information about operations tothe owners so people aren't
asked to come to one or twomeetings a year or four under
the current law and be told,Hey, this is happening. Our
costs are going up, and peopledon't know what to say or think,
and people react poorly, andthen the meeting doesn't go
well, that kind of thing.
Information flow is another keyto a condo tranquility.
Robert Nordlund (21:22):
Rob, I want to get more into that talk about
communication, lowering thetemperature on a board so things
get done. Think personalitiesaren't a problem. But I want to
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Robert Nordlund (22:19):
Now we're back.
Well, just before the break, wewere talking about the
challenges with boards, andmaybe the little difference
between or a lot of differencebetween whole ownership boards,
timeshare boards. And one thingRob that you said that
captivated me was the maybebigger role that personalities
play and tensions play at wholeownership associations and walk
(22:41):
me through that is that, becausethey're living close to each
other, is that personalities?
What's what's going on withthat? You
Rob Webb (22:51):
know, in my experience, it hard to get the
people that might be the bestofficers and directors of a
residential condominiumassociation, it's hard to get
many of them to run. They don'twant to be the center of
attention. They don't want to bethe ones making the decisions.
(23:12):
They just want to get along withtheir neighbors. Those are the
ones you desperately need. So inmany cases, people with large
outside person, outsizedpersonalities run and get on
boards that not bad thing,intrinsically, however, if they
don't know how to put theirpersonal preferences and
(23:35):
perspectives, religion,politics, etc, in a silo when it
comes time to talk about what'sbest for the condominium and its
members as a whole, then it canquickly devolve into a very
uncomfortable situationdominated by a few loud people
(23:56):
and the very people that couldbe effective counterbalances.
They don't even want to go. Idon't even want to show up. It's
it makes me uncomfortable. Idon't like
Robert Nordlund (24:06):
Well, you got me thinking more along those
lines. Let's talk about ahypothetical 100 unit condo
association. Okay, in thatsituation, a whole ownership you
have 100 a pool of board memberpool, basically of 100 people.
But when you're talking about avacation ownership, what is it?
(24:26):
Roughly 51 weeks. And so youhave 5100 people that you could
pull from that you couldhopefully have a little better
chance of getting someone withthe right personality,
wherewithal, capabilities, to bea board member. That's the right
stuff. Okay, I like that. Now.
We have some residentialclients, and I'm thinking of two
in particular, one that is alarge HOA large plan
(24:49):
development, and they have milesof horse trails, and they have
some wonderful tennis courts.
So. And the board is made up ofthe horse people who wear boots
and the tennis people who weartheir nice outfits and have
white tennis shoes. And there'sinherent conflict at that
(25:11):
association. I have another thathas private lake, a golf course
and an equestrian center. Andlike you say, the boards have
these different motivations. Areyou a golfer? Are you a boater,
or are you a horse? Horse Rider,horse person. But let me take
you back to what you said rightat the beginning about being a
(25:34):
fiduciary. That means you tendto put these things aside, and
you put the association firstCorrect.
Rob Webb (25:42):
You put the association. And another way to
put that is the members as awhole, not the people you play
bridge with, not the people youplay tennis with, everyone,
including that old man that youknow keeps complaining about the
crack in the sidewalk in frontof the unit, everybody as a
(26:03):
whole. You can't make them allhappy, but if you make them know
that you're listening and doingyour best to try to balance
competing interests, then you'redoing your job as a fiduciary.
Doesn't mean it's going to beeasy. It often is not
transparency, communication,reliance on reliable experts.
(26:26):
These are the keys
Robert Nordlund (26:28):
I'm stopping because I'm writing that down.
Every once in a while, you aregoing to say something good. How
about that? Rob?
Unknown (26:37):
I've got a million of them. I think we're going
Robert Nordlund (26:39):
to need to have you back sometime. Transparency,
communication and reliance onexperts. That's because, I guess
there's humility in there,understanding that you don't
know it all humility orselflessness, that you
understand that the associationneeds this, even though you
don't want to raise theassessments. But geez, Louise,
(27:00):
you've looked at the budget, andyou need to raise the
assessments, not just doing itbecause you got on the board to
do X. Once you get on the board,you need to realize you're
running the corporation, and youcarry that burden on your
shoulders. And
Rob Webb (27:14):
that's a good way to think about it. A public company
usually has boards of directorsmade up of people that run other
public companies or haveparticular experts expertise in
the public arena, but theydon't. Maybe not know how. They
may not know how to make thewidgets that company ABC make,
but they know general rules ofengagement in public markets,
(27:38):
public financing, shareholdercare and communication. They're
experts at that in othercontexts, and therefore their
perspective is valid for ourcondo association. You can have
doctors, lawyers, professionals,that's good, but they shouldn't
all be that you want some peoplethat are retired. You want some
(27:59):
people that are in differentbusinesses, most of all, you
want people with common senseand the ability to doubt
themselves just a little bit.
Robert Nordlund (28:08):
I have a friend who is a real singer type
person, and he talked once aboutthe richness of singing in a
choir with different people ofdifferent sizes, shapes and
ages, because he said that gaverichness to the choir. They
brought different things to thechoir that just he said, brought
(28:30):
color to the black and white ofthe music. I
Rob Webb (28:33):
love that. I love that analogy. But there's one other
point to it, and I'm so glad youbrought that up. Perfect
analogy, and that is and youdon't want one person singing
more loudly than they need to,because that will ruin the the
orchestration of the differentvoices, knowing how and when to
(28:54):
inject your opinion and then bequiet and listen. By the way,
anybody that knows me that'slistening to this is saying,
hey, Physician, heal Thyself.
But well, you podcast. Thisisn't, this isn't Rob Webb under
examination. God, I wish I couldlisten. You don't even know. You
don't even want. Well,
Robert Nordlund (29:16):
Rob, that brings up a point. You get paid
for being a subject matterexpert, you're a treasure trove
of knowledge, of experience. Iwant to hear more from you
someday, and we don't have timetoday about what got you into
this crazy industry, the thisassociation industry. I want to
(29:38):
hear more about termination,because that sounds like that
may be an important future ofour industry, whole ownership
and timeshare vacationownership, but at this point in
time, Rob, It's great talkingwith you and having you on the
program. You're leaving me withmore questions I'd love to talk
with you about. But any closingthoughts to add? At this time, I
Rob Webb (30:01):
like what you said about termination. I don't think
you have to read too many papersto fully understand that older
Florida condominiums,particularly on our coasts, are
in disarray, not in compliancewith the law. They're facing
resale problems. They're placedfacing financing problems, and
most recently, insuranceeligibility problems. It's a
(30:24):
mess, and the solution, I think,is an easier approach to
termination than we have rightnow for another time. But I'm
I'm not a pessimist. I love thecondominium form of ownership.
It would be great maybe to drilldown, down to how that form of
ownership developed, how it wasinitially reacted to and what
(30:48):
has happened over time to itthat has sort of led us to the
mess that some of ourcondominiums in Florida are in.
Robert Nordlund (30:55):
Yeah, similarly, I'm an optimist. I
think there's people here, thesubject matter experts from
different points of view thattogether, we're bringing this
association industry forward. Ithink the best is ahead of us. I
think it's interesting. You useda word right there that I want
to bring out. You talked aboutinsurance eligibility. So many
of our listeners are thinkingabout insurance affordability,
(31:17):
but that's a half a step awayfrom insurance eligibility, and
Rob Webb (31:21):
they're going to wish affordability was their only
problem and not very long fromnow. Well, said,
Robert Nordlund (31:26):
Well, if you'd like to get in touch with Rob
Rob Webb, you can reach himthrough his firm's website,
Baker law.com b, a, k, E, R, L,A, w.com. Well, we hope you
learned some HOA insights fromour discussion today that helps
you bring common sense to yourcommon areas. We look forward to
having you join us for anothergreat episode next week
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(00:03):
do not have particular expertiseand rely on them to the extent
that you reasonably believethey're reliable. And if you've
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then that is a situation doesn'tmatter who's right and who's
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Robert Nordlund (00:45):
Welcome back to Hoa Insights
Common Areas. I'm RobertNordlund, and I'm here today for
episode number 106 with aspecial guest that I heard speak
at a conference last year, and Iimmediately thought that would
be a great guy to have as aguest for our podcast audience.
So today I have the good fortuneto have Rob Webb on the program.
Rob is a Florida attorney. Hecurrently serves as director,
(01:09):
secretary and associationgeneral counsel for Arda, which
is the American resortDevelopment Association. Now for
those of you in the residentialcommunity association world.
Arda is the resort or vacationownership version of Cai, the
National Trade Organization.
Rob's also active in his privatepractice, with all the normal
(01:30):
and crazy things that happen atan association on a daily and
weekly basis. Well, this is afollow up to episode number 105
with regular co host JulieAdelman, where it's always a
treat to hear what she's doingand learning from a consultant
point of view, helping boardsand communities to thrive. And
if you missed that episode orany other prior episode, take a
(01:51):
moment after today's program tolisten from our podcast website,
Hoa insights.org, or watch onour YouTube channel, but better
yet, subscribe from any of themajor podcast platforms so you
don't miss any future episodes.
And those of you watching onYouTube can see the HOA insights
(02:12):
log that I have here that I gotfrom our merch store, which you
can browse through from the HOAinsights.org website, or the
link in our show notes, you'llfind that we have some great
free stuff, like board memberszoom backgrounds and some
specialty items for sale, likethis mug. So go with the merch
(02:32):
store. Download a free zoombackground for your next Zoom
meeting. Take a moment lookaround, find the mug you'd like
and email me atpodcast@reservestudy.com with
your name, shipping address, mugchoice, mentioning episode 106,
mug giveaway, and if you're the10th person to email me, I'll
ship that mug to you free ofcharge. Well, we enjoy hearing
(02:55):
from you responding to theissues you're facing at your
association. So if you have ahot topic, a crazy story, or a
question you'd like us toaddress. You can contact us at
805-203-3130, or email us atpodcast at reserve study.com and
this episode was prompted by aquestion from Julie in Sarasota,
(03:20):
who asked Sarasota Florida, whoasked our Florida condo
association is facing somefinancial pressure due to
insurance and the new reservestudy legislation? Is this going
to affect my two timeshares? SoI thought this would be a great
episode to have a FloridaCommunity Association vacation
(03:40):
ownership specialist, attorneyon the program. So Rob, welcome
and what would you answer toJulie?
Rob Webb (03:48):
Thank you very much.
It's a pleasure to be here,Julie, I would say, depending on
the financial health of yourassociation and your current
state of compliance with the newcondo laws, it could affect your
two time shares incrediblynegatively, or it may not really
impact you at all. If yourassociation has been thoughtful
(04:13):
in planning for the structuralreserve requirements and other
recent changes to the condo law,then hopefully it's simply a
matter of increased assessmentsand smart collection planning,
and the impact will be minimal.
(04:33):
If your association is wringingits hands because it doesn't
even know where to start or hasother reasons to believe it
can't comply with the law. Thatcould be a very dangerous
situation indeed.
Robert Nordlund (04:47):
My listeners know I come from the reserve
study point of view. Thereserves are the big ticket
items, the big ticket items thatyou would like to have years and
years and years of financialpreparation to get ready for so
you're. Not hearing about aleaky roof and saying, Oh no,
what are we going to do? And Ithink Rob that from your point
of view, that's got to be evenbigger and bigger for vacation
(05:10):
ownership resorts, where notonly are you dealing with the
roof, but you're dealing withall those unit interior assets,
the flooring, the carpeting, thekitchen remodels, all that kind
of stuff. So the reserveprojects at timeshares, at
vacation ownership resorts kindof be just huge. Yes,
Rob Webb (05:29):
they are. And the modern vacation ownership
industry, I would split it intofour pieces. One piece has a
well capitalized public companyor well capitalized private,
independent developers, veryprofessional management, and
(05:49):
they continue to sell. And afterthey're finished, basically
selling out one resort, theycontinue to have a presence
because they're selling otherresorts or a vacation club or
multi site, and they tend to bewell reserved, well maintained,
and they don't really havedifficulties, and they show us
(06:13):
the very best of what timesharecan Be. Then you have older
resorts that are not managed bya public company affiliate, but
very professional managementnotwithstanding, there are
several of those in Floridaalone, and they and their boards
(06:34):
have a good relationship, verytransparent. They communicate
well with their owners. Theirowners understand why
assessments are going up andwhere the money's going. They're
also in pretty good shape. Thenyour last two categories are,
unfortunately, older resorts,primarily, but not all, but
(06:55):
older resorts that have noprofessional manager, have no
developer or resale program.
They're doing the best they can.
This isn't an indictment of theboard members by any stretch of
the imagination. Yeah. Well,
Robert Nordlund (07:08):
most board members are short term people
that they inherited a problem.
Rob Webb (07:12):
You know that that's true. I think of many condo
associations, but timesharecondo associations and regular
timeshare associations, if theplace is run, well, it's
difficult to find volunteers forthe board, because there's
really no problems. It's even ifI should show up for meeting, we
(07:33):
had to reduce our quorum,legislatively, 15% for the
purpose of electing boards, nomatter what your quorum is in
your documents, because wecouldn't get anything done
otherwise. So that's a blessingif that's happening, even though
it's frustrating, because youwant to encourage participation.
(07:53):
And then you have the fourthcategory. I'm going to use a
euphemism that's not verycomplimentary, but I think it's
very descriptive, and that'szombie resorts, resorts that are
in a financial death spiral, andcorners are cut just about
everywhere to try to keep thedoors open. Again. It's not an
(08:14):
indictment, necessarily, of theboard members, unless they've
been there for a long time, andeven then, board members are
under pressure from owners don'traise our assessments. I can't
afford more. Those need to die.
And that's part of what I wantto talk with you about today, is
if you look at the life cycle ofour shared ownership industry,
(08:37):
we're not doing a very good jobwith that last part.
Robert Nordlund (08:44):
Rob, I don't know how much homework I
assigned you or how much youdid, but our very first episode
was with some attorneys who weretalking about condo
deconversion, and I wanted to dothat as one of our initial
episodes, because when you geton an airplane, the flight
attendants tell you what theemergency procedures are, what
(09:06):
the emergency exit is. And I seethe deconversion, or as
basically the emergency exitwhen it's failing, you need to
find a way out is that a littlebit of what you're talking about
it
Rob Webb (09:20):
is. And 40 to 45 years ago, when I started in time
sharing, I started as a lawyer,45 years ago in Orlando,
Florida, the condo markets hadcollapsed in Florida, Nevada,
Arizona, California and Hawaii,and there were a bunch of whole
(09:42):
ownership condos that no onecould sell or finance. They were
just laying around, andtimeshare was one of the devices
people turned to as a workoutdevice. Spoiler alert, it's not
a workout device, but through ahappy set of of. Occurrences. A
(10:02):
lot of it was sold, and eventhough it wasn't sold well, and
even though we didn't haveprofessional managers that
understood the things that maketimeshare very different from
both whole ownership condo andhotel. It's a mixture of the
two, but it has its many of itsown issues, not withstanding all
(10:22):
the things we weren't doingright. People loved it, but the
lenders in those days said weare not going to loan the
developer money if there is anychance this thing's going to be
terminated while any of ourloans are outstanding. That's
why most old time perioddeclarations in Florida and
(10:43):
elsewhere require 100% consentto terminate the timeshare. Now
that's not true in every case,and there are some that have
other methods of termination,but we had no idea I counted
myself. I was young associate. Iwas copying other people's
documents and then amending themas I thought they were
(11:03):
necessary. And you know, thathas brought us to the problem we
have today. Whole ownership hasit as well, but whole ownership
has it for
Unknown (11:12):
different reasons. I want to follow up on your first
category, and if I'm giving youtoo much of an explanation, just
cut me off.
Robert Nordlund (11:20):
Okay, well, you got me taking notes, and my
brain is spinning, and that'salways a good thing. You talked
about the first category. Firstcategory is well capitalized
developer, continued presence, Ithink, major brand, and at that
major brand, they also runhotels. So could we take a step
further to say they're hotels?
There's well run vacationownership, and then it blends
(11:43):
down all the way to Mom and Poporganizations that weren't run.
Well, that's your category one.
And then that almost blends intothe whole ownership, residential
condominium association worldwhere people live, and it
becomes their home. Andsometimes you don't see things
(12:05):
because of what we callfamiliarity blindness. You since
you see it every day when youwalk from your car to your
mailbox to your front door, youdon't see that crack in the
sidewalk. All of a sudden,things creep up on you and you
miss so is that can is thatfair? Is that that may be a dead
end? I shouldn't I probablyshouldn't have gone down that
(12:27):
path. I
Rob Webb (12:27):
think it certainly is one way to look at it, because I
like to look at issues as ifthey're laying on a dining room
table, and there are eightchairs or 10 chairs around the
table, and each chair you moveto gives you a different
perspective. It's interesting,though, that you mentioned
familiarity blindness, becausein what I'll call homestead
(12:48):
condominiums, where people livethere, including the directors,
everyone, even if they'remissing that crack in the
sidewalk, everyone has aconstant opportunity to assess
the physical and financialhealth of this investment of
their home, and most of the lawsare actually written to protect
(13:11):
purchasers and associations forthose whole ownership
condominiums. Part of thefrustration we have its
temperature industry is thatmany of them simply aren't
applicable to timeshare. And ifyou look through the condominium
Act, which is a bit of aFrankenstein of its own, this
doesn't apply, yeah, Floridacondo act, this doesn't apply to
(13:33):
time condominiums, right? But,yeah, I think that's pretty
fair. That's pretty fair withtimes, sure. Communist. You
know, our directors don't livethere, and we get them
sometimes, if you'll pay forthem, they'll come to the resort
for a week and then have theirmeetings. But it more and more,
they're on Zoom, so they're notthere all the time. So it's
(13:57):
almost the opposite problem.
They don't have a chance to seethe crack. And when they're
there, there are too manythings, sensory overload. So
it's like many of the issuesbetween timeshare and whole
ownership, it's inverse.
Robert Nordlund (14:11):
So the timeshare boards have the
opposite problem, that they'renot aware or wow, if they're
sharing, then maybe they haven'tbeen there in five years because
they've been to another placefor the last four years and
they've lost track. You've gotit interesting. Okay? What's it
like? What are the challengesyou see for timeshare board
(14:33):
members? Otherwise, I wouldthink that they're interfacing
with a major brand, whichhopefully is an incredibly great
assistant who is laying thedecision points on a platter for
them. Is that does that makebeing a board member easier or
harder?
Rob Webb (14:52):
It depends on whether you're trusting the advice
you're getting from that manageror other fiduciary. Okay, board
members directors of any nonprofit corporation owe fiduciary
duties, which is the highestlevel of duty owed in agency
law. Some of the things it meansin this context are seek the
(15:15):
advice of knowledgeable expertswhere you do not have particular
expertise and rely on them tothe extent that you reasonably
believe they're reliable. Thisis really important. And if
you've got a board of directorsthat doesn't trust its manager,
(15:35):
doesn't like its manager,doesn't believe its manager,
then that is a situation doesn'tmatter who's right and who's
wrong. That's a situation that'sheading for problems.
Robert Nordlund (15:46):
We had a podcast episode just a few weeks
ago where the guest expert wastalking about trust but verify,
and I first learned that phraselong ago because of Ronald
Reagan, and he was interfacingwith the Soviets, and, you know,
very important discussions, andespecially at resort
(16:08):
associations. Those budgets arebig, and the strategic plans
that you lay out theimplications of what are we
going to do? Those are bigdecisions, and you need to trust
and maybe you need to ask thatextra question, to say, can you
clarify that? Why do you think?
But so maybe respectfully, justpress them a little bit. Is that
(16:30):
what you're talking about? It
Rob Webb (16:33):
is, but before you can even do that, you have to be
well informed in the premises.
In other words, you have tounderstand the budget. You have
to understand what the lineitems include, and don't
include. Some resorts have suchsummary budgets. You know, one
page, maybe half a page, full ofline items, very, very, very
(16:55):
broad in general, that's notagainst the law. It is just
inadvisable from a director'sperspective, because you don't
know what's in that. And thenwhen you laid the two directors
should ask, Oh, here's the 2025budget. Can you lay it next to
the 2024 budget and give me aper line item variance? That is
(17:17):
a basic request, they should bevery happy to do that. If your
budget is that half page, youknow, 18 line item thing where
everything's bunched together.
How are you going to understandthe variance? You could say,
well, what is that? Oh, we hadhigher employment costs. Our
(17:39):
insurance went up, and that'swhere most people stop. In my
opinion, that is not a directordoing her job. Directors need to
say, No, I need more exactlywhat went up what budget for
guesses we get that. Where didyou guess wrong? Where did you
get right? Give us advice onwhat we're going to need to do
(18:02):
to refine those guesses basedupon last year's experience that
is a director doing her job. I
Robert Nordlund (18:08):
like that getting down to a granular
level, so it's not justutilities, but the electric, the
water and then staffing. You maynot need to know a person
salary. But you need to know,how much do you have eight
people on the landscaping staff,or do you have 24 how many
(18:29):
housekeeping staff do you have?
All these kinds of things whereyou're seeing what's happening?
Are we getting more efficient?
What is the miscellaneous isthat the walkie talkies are
people using cell phones, lotsof things that help you
understand what is going on atour resort.
Rob Webb (18:45):
It's very important to understand the difference
between direct provision ofservices by the association
through its employees and thirdparty contracted services, both
of the examples you gave,landscaping and housekeeping can
be done either way, right? Andif it's a third party service,
(19:07):
don't be satisfied with, oh,they're telling us it's going to
be 5% more this year becausetheir costs went up. Okay? What
costs went up and do we need toput it back out for bid? And a
manager that's not ready toanswer at least the first round
of those questions withoutresearch, is a manager that's
(19:27):
not doing a very good job. In myopinion,
Robert Nordlund (19:30):
I like that.
There's a board memberresponsibility, there's a magic
responsibility, and it's a teamthat works together for the
success of the property itself.
And that would be the same, I'dimagine, yeah, whether it's a
resort or
Rob Webb (19:47):
whole ownership, yes, that's true. In whole ownership,
you have addition, you have oneadditional danger that you
really don't tend to have attimeshare resorts, although
there are notable exceptions andthat. Is politics. The politics
of the board in a residentialcondominium are so much more
(20:09):
palpable, so much more impactfulon the overall operation of the
association and the condominium,whether it's board members that
genuinely aren't listening totheir owners, or owners that
aren't paying attention, andthey tend to lay everything off
on Well, that's the board'sproblem, and we can't vote them
(20:31):
off. Usually the truth lies inbetween just about any two
points. But I think I know thatmy friends that are managing
whole ownership condominiumstell me that they need to work
much harder on transparency,much harder on making sure the
board is informed, and muchharder on giving interim
(20:54):
information about operations tothe owners so people aren't
asked to come to one or twomeetings a year or four under
the current law and be told,Hey, this is happening. Our
costs are going up, and peopledon't know what to say or think,
and people react poorly, andthen the meeting doesn't go
well, that kind of thing.
Information flow is another keyto a condo tranquility.
Robert Nordlund (21:22):
Rob, I want to get more into that talk about
communication, lowering thetemperature on a board so things
get done. Think personalitiesaren't a problem. But I want to
take a quick break at this timeto hear from one of our generous
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Robert Nordlund (22:19):
Now we're back.
Well, just before the break, wewere talking about the
challenges with boards, andmaybe the little difference
between or a lot of differencebetween whole ownership boards,
timeshare boards. And one thingRob that you said that
captivated me was the maybebigger role that personalities
play and tensions play at wholeownership associations and walk
(22:41):
me through that is that, becausethey're living close to each
other, is that personalities?
What's what's going on withthat? You
Rob Webb (22:51):
know, in my experience, it hard to get the
people that might be the bestofficers and directors of a
residential condominiumassociation, it's hard to get
many of them to run. They don'twant to be the center of
attention. They don't want to bethe ones making the decisions.
(23:12):
They just want to get along withtheir neighbors. Those are the
ones you desperately need. So inmany cases, people with large
outside person, outsizedpersonalities run and get on
boards that not bad thing,intrinsically, however, if they
don't know how to put theirpersonal preferences and
(23:35):
perspectives, religion,politics, etc, in a silo when it
comes time to talk about what'sbest for the condominium and its
members as a whole, then it canquickly devolve into a very
uncomfortable situationdominated by a few loud people
(23:56):
and the very people that couldbe effective counterbalances.
They don't even want to go. Idon't even want to show up. It's
it makes me uncomfortable. Idon't like
Robert Nordlund (24:06):
Well, you got me thinking more along those
lines. Let's talk about ahypothetical 100 unit condo
association. Okay, in thatsituation, a whole ownership you
have 100 a pool of board memberpool, basically of 100 people.
But when you're talking about avacation ownership, what is it?
(24:26):
Roughly 51 weeks. And so youhave 5100 people that you could
pull from that you couldhopefully have a little better
chance of getting someone withthe right personality,
wherewithal, capabilities, to bea board member. That's the right
stuff. Okay, I like that. Now.
We have some residentialclients, and I'm thinking of two
in particular, one that is alarge HOA large plan
(24:49):
development, and they have milesof horse trails, and they have
some wonderful tennis courts.
So. And the board is made up ofthe horse people who wear boots
and the tennis people who weartheir nice outfits and have
white tennis shoes. And there'sinherent conflict at that
(25:11):
association. I have another thathas private lake, a golf course
and an equestrian center. Andlike you say, the boards have
these different motivations. Areyou a golfer? Are you a boater,
or are you a horse? Horse Rider,horse person. But let me take
you back to what you said rightat the beginning about being a
(25:34):
fiduciary. That means you tendto put these things aside, and
you put the association firstCorrect.
Rob Webb (25:42):
You put the association. And another way to
put that is the members as awhole, not the people you play
bridge with, not the people youplay tennis with, everyone,
including that old man that youknow keeps complaining about the
crack in the sidewalk in frontof the unit, everybody as a
(26:03):
whole. You can't make them allhappy, but if you make them know
that you're listening and doingyour best to try to balance
competing interests, then you'redoing your job as a fiduciary.
Doesn't mean it's going to beeasy. It often is not
transparency, communication,reliance on reliable experts.
(26:26):
These are the keys
Robert Nordlund (26:28):
I'm stopping because I'm writing that down.
Every once in a while, you aregoing to say something good. How
about that? Rob?
Unknown (26:37):
I've got a million of them. I think we're going
Robert Nordlund (26:39):
to need to have you back sometime. Transparency,
communication and reliance onexperts. That's because, I guess
there's humility in there,understanding that you don't
know it all humility orselflessness, that you
understand that the associationneeds this, even though you
don't want to raise theassessments. But geez, Louise,
(27:00):
you've looked at the budget, andyou need to raise the
assessments, not just doing itbecause you got on the board to
do X. Once you get on the board,you need to realize you're
running the corporation, and youcarry that burden on your
shoulders. And
Rob Webb (27:14):
that's a good way to think about it. A public company
usually has boards of directorsmade up of people that run other
public companies or haveparticular experts expertise in
the public arena, but theydon't. Maybe not know how. They
may not know how to make thewidgets that company ABC make,
but they know general rules ofengagement in public markets,
(27:38):
public financing, shareholdercare and communication. They're
experts at that in othercontexts, and therefore their
perspective is valid for ourcondo association. You can have
doctors, lawyers, professionals,that's good, but they shouldn't
all be that you want some peoplethat are retired. You want some
(27:59):
people that are in differentbusinesses, most of all, you
want people with common senseand the ability to doubt
themselves just a little bit.
Robert Nordlund (28:08):
I have a friend who is a real singer type
person, and he talked once aboutthe richness of singing in a
choir with different people ofdifferent sizes, shapes and
ages, because he said that gaverichness to the choir. They
brought different things to thechoir that just he said, brought
(28:30):
color to the black and white ofthe music. I
Rob Webb (28:33):
love that. I love that analogy. But there's one other
point to it, and I'm so glad youbrought that up. Perfect
analogy, and that is and youdon't want one person singing
more loudly than they need to,because that will ruin the the
orchestration of the differentvoices, knowing how and when to
(28:54):
inject your opinion and then bequiet and listen. By the way,
anybody that knows me that'slistening to this is saying,
hey, Physician, heal Thyself.
But well, you podcast. Thisisn't, this isn't Rob Webb under
examination. God, I wish I couldlisten. You don't even know. You
don't even want. Well,
Robert Nordlund (29:16):
Rob, that brings up a point. You get paid
for being a subject matterexpert, you're a treasure trove
of knowledge, of experience. Iwant to hear more from you
someday, and we don't have timetoday about what got you into
this crazy industry, the thisassociation industry. I want to
(29:38):
hear more about termination,because that sounds like that
may be an important future ofour industry, whole ownership
and timeshare vacationownership, but at this point in
time, Rob, It's great talkingwith you and having you on the
program. You're leaving me withmore questions I'd love to talk
with you about. But any closingthoughts to add? At this time, I
Rob Webb (30:01):
like what you said about termination. I don't think
you have to read too many papersto fully understand that older
Florida condominiums,particularly on our coasts, are
in disarray, not in compliancewith the law. They're facing
resale problems. They're placedfacing financing problems, and
most recently, insuranceeligibility problems. It's a
(30:24):
mess, and the solution, I think,is an easier approach to
termination than we have rightnow for another time. But I'm
I'm not a pessimist. I love thecondominium form of ownership.
It would be great maybe to drilldown, down to how that form of
ownership developed, how it wasinitially reacted to and what
(30:48):
has happened over time to itthat has sort of led us to the
mess that some of ourcondominiums in Florida are in.
Robert Nordlund (30:55):
Yeah, similarly, I'm an optimist. I
think there's people here, thesubject matter experts from
different points of view thattogether, we're bringing this
association industry forward. Ithink the best is ahead of us. I
think it's interesting. You useda word right there that I want
to bring out. You talked aboutinsurance eligibility. So many
of our listeners are thinkingabout insurance affordability,
(31:17):
but that's a half a step awayfrom insurance eligibility, and
Rob Webb (31:21):
they're going to wish affordability was their only
problem and not very long fromnow. Well, said,
Robert Nordlund (31:26):
Well, if you'd like to get in touch with Rob
Rob Webb, you can reach himthrough his firm's website,
Baker law.com b, a, k, E, R, L,A, w.com. Well, we hope you
learned some HOA insights fromour discussion today that helps
you bring common sense to yourcommon areas. We look forward to
having you join us for anothergreat episode next week
Announcer (31:51):
you've been listening to Hoa insights common sense for
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(32:35):
about the community, associationindustry. You want to consult
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