March 11, 2026 • 36 mins
In honor of National Criminal Justice Month, “Hope Starts With Us” is guest hosted by NAMI’s Chief Advocacy Officer Hannah Wesolowski in conversation with NAMI’s Director of Criminal Justice Policy and Initiatives Shannon Scully. The two explore NAMI’s advocacy to end the criminalization of mental illness and creating avenues for help, not handcuffs. Through this episode, listeners will learn about our criminal justice policy priorities, the need for more support and resources, how to get involved in NAMI’s National Criminal Justice Month and Overlooked campaigns, plus the brand-new resource “Navigating the Criminal Justice System.” Listen now and learn how you can get involved today.
Episode links:
- National Criminal Justice Month
- NAMI's Overlooked campaign
- NAMI's new resource: "Navigating the Criminal Justice System"
You can find additional episodes of this NAMI podcast and others at nami.org/podcast.
"Hope Starts With Us" is a podcast by NAMI, the National Alliance on Mental Illness. It is hosted by NAMI CEO Daniel H. Gillison, Jr.
Co-executive produced by Traci Coulter and Connor Larsen.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Amongst the generalpublic, there's a lack of understanding
about mental illness,especially about serious mental illness.
And a lot of timeswhat this leads to is just a belief
that people with mental healthconditions are violent.
But the reality is, is that mentalillness is not an indicator for violence,
and it is definitely not an indicatorfor violent crime.
(00:20):
We often kind of highlightthe statistic that people are more likely
to be a victim of a crimeif they have a mental health condition,
than they are perpetrate a crime.
Welcome to Hope Starts With Us,a podcast by NAMI, the National Alliance
on Mental Illness.
I'm your guest host today,Hannah Wesolowski,
Chief Advocacy Officer at NAMI.
NAMI started this podcast becausewe believe that hope starts with us.
(00:43):
Hope starts with ustalking about mental health.
Hope starts with us making informationaccessible.
Hope starts with usproviding resources and practical advice.
Hope starts with us sharing our stories,and hope starts
with us breaking the stigma.
If you or a loved one is strugglingwith a mental health condition
and have been looking for hope.
We made this podcast for you.
(01:04):
Hope starts with all of us.
Hope is a collective.
We hope that each episode,with each conversation brings
you into that collectiveso you know you are not alone.
TodayI'm excited to talk about NAMI's work
to endthe criminalization of mental illness.
March is National Criminal Justice Month,and this month, NAMI
is promoting our overlook campaignto talk about the intersection
(01:27):
of mental illnessand the criminal justice system.
Far too often, peoplewith mental illness are caught up
in our criminal justice system,and we want to make sure
that we're supporting individualsand families to be diverted away
from criminal justice system involvementand support all the individuals who are
currently engaged in our justice system.
I am so delighted to welcome our guesttoday.
(01:48):
Shannon Scully is the Director of JusticePolicy and Initiatives here at NAMI.
Had the great fortune of workingwith Shannon for the last eight years,
and she leads all of NAMI's workon addressing the criminalization
of people with mental illnessin the criminal justice system
and all of the resources and supportthat we offer to our community.
So welcome, Shannon. Hey,thanks for having me.
(02:10):
I'm glad you're here because you doso much amazing work in this space
and really want to start with,why are we talking about this in March?
What is National Criminal Justice Month?
Why does NAMI recognize this month?
And, really, what is it all about?
Yeah.
So, National Criminal JusticeMonth was a month
that was designated by Congressa number of years ago.
(02:32):
But NAMI's engagement withthis month
really started only a few years back.
So Congress's original intent wasthey were going to create this month
to help people learn about whatour criminal justice system does.
And as we were, you know, Hannah,you were part of this conversation
a few years ago.
We were really looking at,how do we take our advocacy?
(02:56):
How do we take our work around,kind of ending the criminalization
of people with mental illness?
How do we take that to the next level,and how do we really make sure that we're
bringing as much attentionto this intersection as we possibly can?
And we identifiedNational Criminal Justice
Month, one being an education month,but two, a time
(03:16):
where we could take advantage of itto not just educate people
about the criminal justice systemand what it does, but to educate people
about the criminal justice systemand what it doesn't do,
being that it has a huge impact on peoplewith mental illness,
but does not, in fact,kind of overwhelmingly
(03:40):
support kind of the goals that we atNAMI have for a lot of people
living with mental health conditions,which is, to live their lives
in a community,to be able to access support and services
and to, you know, live really kindof fulfilling lives, surrounded
kind of by their community that cares.
And so, we really decided to flip NationalCriminal Justice Month a little bit
(04:05):
on its head and use it more for our ownpurposes to really kind of highlight
what the intersection of mental illnessand the criminal justice system
really means and what that reality meansfor millions of families.
That's great.
And I think we've gottensuch a great response talking about this
and giving people a spaceto share their stories
and to talk about solutionsand talk about opportunities
(04:26):
to better support people.
And instead of relyingon the justice system to be our response.
So let's talk about that intersection ofcriminal justice system and mental health.
Why are people with mental illnessso overrepresented
in our criminal justice system?
And why is thissuch a priority issue for NAMI?
(04:48):
So I think we can start with the data.
And I always kind of like to preferencewhen I give out the data that we know
about the criminal justice system, that,it's my belief and many of the advocates'
that I work with around this countrybelieve that this is an undercount.
The data that we do haveabout the intersection of mental illness
and the criminal justice systemis an undercount, and that the impact,
(05:11):
and the presence of peoplewith mental illness
who are in the criminal justicesystem is much-- the need is
just much greater in that space.
But the data that we do haveis that about 2 million times each year,
somebody with a mental health conditionis booked into one of our nation's jails.
About 44% of the peoplewho are incarcerated in a jail
(05:31):
have a mental health condition.
And about somewhere around35% of people who are incarcerated
in state prisons or federal prisonshave a mental health condition.
And so these numbers really reflectalmost, double
what the rate of mental illnessis in our general population.
And so there's this overrepresentedrepresentation of mental illness
(05:53):
that we're always talking aboutin the criminal justice system.
And, it does beg the question why?
And I think the easiest way to explainthis is that when a system fails
and this is notjust the mental health system,
but we talk about itin the context of mental health system.
But when other systems we have fail,we use the criminal justice system
as a safety net.
(06:17):
So when someone cannot access servicesor there isn't the availability
of services or engagementfor them around their mental health
condition in our community, their symptomsand their untreated symptoms
get to a pointin which, you know, they have fallen
very clearly, fallen through the cracks.
And what catches them,the safety net that we have
(06:37):
chosen is the criminal justice system.
And so,we see this across a number of things.
You know,when someone's having a behavioral health
crisis, law enforcement is the primaryfirst responder for people who are seeking
some kind of help during that crisis.
(06:57):
When someone is homeless, again,we've seen an uptick in policies
that criminalize sleeping on the streets.
And living in homelessness.
So again, we're choosing,kind of these mechanisms which aren't
actually solving the problem, but does,in fact, you know, at least temporarily
kind of address that immediate concern.
(07:21):
And it does lead people to involvement,you know, not only temporarily,
maybe a booking in jail,but can lead to further involvement
within the criminal justice system.
So sometimes there are charges,you know, they might be incarcerated
for extended periods of time.
But usually when we look at folkswith mental health conditions
(07:42):
who are incarcerated, who are involvedin the criminal justice system,
we can trace their story backto not being able to access services.
And, you know, symptomsthat are resulting from untreated
mental health conditionand that indirectly connects
to their involvementin the justice system.
Yeah, we're essentially criminalizingthe symptoms that they have.
(08:06):
Imagineif somebody else was in a health crisis,
like having a heart attackand our response was,
oh, jails the best place to bring them.
That's the only placewe have to give them help. Yeah.
We also, you know,there's a lot of data out there.
And this is a message that NAMI isconstantly trying to push back on.
But there is a, because of our, ouryou know, this has gotten better
(08:28):
a lot in the last several years.
But, you know, amongst the general public,there's a lack of understanding
about mental illness,especially about serious mental illness.
And a lot of timeswhat this leads to is just a belief
that people with mental healthconditions are violent, which then
I think logically stems from there,that of course, we would use
(08:49):
the criminal justice system.
But the reality is, is that mentalillness is not an indicator for violence,
and it is definitely not anindicator for violent crime.
We often kind ofhighlight the statistic that people
are more likely to be a victim of a crimeif they have a mental health condition,
than they are to perpetrate a crime.
And so we do have a different way,and a lot of our work at NAMI,
(09:13):
to kind of break down the stigmaand understanding about mental illness
is really also working towards this goalof trying to break down
this fear that people have about itand an understanding that
or a belief that someonemight be dangerous as a result.
And so, you know, I think that's anotherreally important aspect of this
conversation is just kind of that,misinformation that is out there
(09:35):
that kind of really brings togethermental illness and violence.
It's such an important point.
You know, so much of the narrativethat we hear day in and day out
really perpetuates this idea that peoplewith mental illness
are people to be feared.
And we at NAMI, we know this isn't true.
(09:56):
And, and so much of the workthat you and I do is to try to educate
partners, educate the public,to educate policymakers,
about what this is.
And that'swhere a lot of the stories that we collect
that we're going to talk abouta little bit later, come in.
But before we get to that,can you talk about the policy work
we do on reducing criminal justice systeminvolvement?
(10:19):
And really diverting people awayfrom the justice system?
What are some of the prioritiesthat you have been fighting
for the last eight years at NAMI,and that we prioritize?
Yeah, absolutely.
So I think, you know,the number one way that I think we think
about diverting people and a mechanismthat we use for diverting people from
(10:39):
the criminal justice system is ensuringthey don't even have that first encounter.
And so,we've really focused a lot of our energy
around helping communitiesrethink crisis response.
So if someone's having symptomsand very severe symptoms,
what is that responsethat we're giving them
and ensuring that to the greatest extentpossible, we're not giving them
(11:01):
a law enforcement response.
We're trying to minimizethat law enforcement response.
And when in law enforcement is dispatchedthat we are getting
the skills, we're helping officersget the skills that they need
to identifythat what is happening in front of them,
that they are respondingto, is a mental health crisis.
(11:22):
And what that person needsis to get crisis care
and does not need to be incarcerated.
So we've done this in a variety of ways.
NAMI has been historically really involvedin crisis intervention team programs,
which is really kind of a law enforcementfocused solution.
It involves, a lot of collaborationon the local level to identify solutions
(11:45):
that improve crisis responsewhen it is a law enforcement response. And
that is CIT.
That (11:51):
Crisis Intervention Teams.
Yes, there are folkswho may not be familiar. Yes.
So for those who are not familiaror might just have heard the acronym
Crisis Intervention Team programs is CIT.
And really, you know, what we seeand the great thing
about these types of programswhere it brings together
collaboration is they usually go beyondjust thinking about
(12:14):
how law enforcement is responding,but they think about all the other tools
that communities need in order to betteraddress crisis response.
And so that's where some of our other workhas come in, where we do
a lot of advocacy around the 988 hotlineand ensuring that
resources are allocatedby the federal government and by state
(12:36):
and local governmentsto ensure that anyone during crisis
can dial 988 and be able to connectto a trained crisis counselor.
Ensuring, you know, looking at the waysthat we can expand
and fund mobile crisis teamsso that law enforcement doesn't need
to go out to mental health crisis callsthat we are sending immediately--
(13:00):
You know, we're sending mental healthprofessionals
who are trained to respond to crisesand to provide people
with the supportand referral in the field.
And then, we're also working really hardto ensure
that we're providing alternativesto the emergency room,
and to jails.
So one of the spaces when someone doesn'thave a place to go during a crisis, often
(13:23):
where they land is either in a jailor in an emergency room
or an emergency departmentin the community.
And we're really advocatingto bring crisis receiving centers,
which are, you know, placeswhere someone can go for about 23 hours.
They look kind of like-- we advocatefor them to look like a living room,
but it's a spacethat's supposed to be comforting,
(13:43):
that's supposed to be supportive,that can help someone continue
to de-escalate from their crisis.
And then get referredin to other services.
So that's kind of the front end workthat we really do.
But then we also think,kind of on the other side on reentry
and how we can support someonein coming back into the community.
(14:07):
And one of our bigasks around that
is ensuring that Medicaid--I'm going to get a little wonky here.
I'm going to try to summarizethis the best I can.
But bottom line,when you become incarcerated, Medicaid
can't cover any of your serviceswhile you are incarcerated.
So it's almost like they take awayyour health insurance
(14:27):
while you're incarcerated.
And one of the thingswhen you're returning to the community
after a period of incarceration,there's a lot of things
that's got to get turned back onso you can start building your life again
outside the jail or prison celland one of those things
that can be really hardto get connected to again is Medicaid.
And so, which is, you know, the primary,you know, source of coverage
(14:50):
for mental health care for a lot of peopleand especially for people
who are returning from incarceration.
And so we really tried--we've been really advocating around
a piece of legislationcalled the Reentry Act
and encouraging that Medicaidbe reinstated 30 days
before someone returns for community,so that the second they leave that
(15:13):
that jail or prison door,they have access to that insurance,
they can start making appointmentsin the community and getting connected
to that mental health care.
And then there's not kindof a separation of coverage.
There's not any kind of delayin care for someone during this kind of
very critical time of returningto the community from incarceration.
(15:36):
Those are kind of our two main areas.
Obviously, we do a variety of advocacy.
Shout out to our affiliates who really doa lot of this work
very deeply in their community.
But there's a variety of other solutionsthat we work on.
But these just happen to be the twothat we're most focused on
at the national office at this point.
(15:56):
Yeah, I was going to say,don't sell yourself short.
You talked about how do we help peoplebefore they even interact
with law enforcement.
But you do so much workat different points of diversion,
whether it's sending peopleto mental health courts as an alternative,
whether it's better care and custody,so that people are actually getting
(16:17):
decent quality mental health serviceswhile they're incarcerated.
There's so many aspects to this work,and it's so pivotal
given as you said,with some of the statistics at the outset.
There's such a high representationof people with mental illness
in the criminal justice system.
So there's lots of workbeing done at the National level,
but also at the state and local levelacross the country.
(16:38):
Yeah, absolutely.
And one of those main thingsis, you really kind of,
through our storytellingthat our advocates do
and our and our memberskind of throughout the Alliance do.
So I want to turn the microphone on youa little bit.
As Hannah mentioned, we have beenworking together for eight years now. And,
I like to say I have been working forHannah.
Hannah likes to say we have been workingtogether, but she's been
(17:02):
a really big part of our abilityto do a lot of this advocacy work.
And so I want you to talk a little bitabout kind
of our Overlooked Campaignthat we launched a few years ago.
I'll tell you what it is.
I'll give everyone a little bit of a hint.
It is a storytelling campaignI want you to talk about
a little bit like, why do we storytelland why is, in a campaign
like this, storytelling so pivotal?
(17:24):
Yeah.
You know, the Overlook Campaignhas been really special
because storytelling is so centralto what we do.
We are the organizationof lived experience, and whether it's
an individual's own journey or the journeyfrom the perspective of a loved one,
making sure people understand,policymakers, the public understand
what those experiences are like,is what will change hearts and minds.
(17:48):
You know, we always say facts inform,but it's stories
that move policymakers to action.
And so with Overlooked,it's really about this concept
that people deserve help, not handcuffs.
And we launched it to talk about real stories, to turn it on people's head of whatis criminal justice system's involvement?
(18:10):
What does a person who's been in jailor prison look like, act like?
And hint, they have all kindsof different experiences.
And that's what we really wantto turn on its head that, you know,
it's, it's anyone who, who has,just, you know, unfortunate opportunity
to come in contactwith the criminal justice system
(18:30):
when they're in crisis,or their symptoms have worsened, that
this could be anyone.
And we really just want to normalizethis experience and talk about it
and get it out in the open.
So, that we have greater publicempathy, greater public understanding,
and hopefully more policymaker actionto really change
(18:51):
how we operate and get people better careand get connected to care sooner.
Yeah, definitely.
And so do you want to share when we arerunning this Overlooked Campaign
and how folks can get involvedif they're interested
to kind of take advantage of it?
Yeah. So people can share their stories.
People can advocate,if you go to nami.org/Overlooked,
you can find all these resources.
(19:16):
We're going to be addingstories of people's real experiences
in the criminal justice systemas a result of their mental illness
throughout the month.
We've been recording some amazing stories,and we're excited to get those out there,
but we always want to collect more.
Those stories are what powers our advocacyand getting those stories out
really makes us much more impactful.
(19:37):
So if you go to nami.org/Overlooked,you can find those resources.
You can see some of our existing stories.
You can take action.
And we really do encourage peopleto get involved throughout the year.
But this month is a good opportunityto kick start that engagement.
And, and help us all dream and fightfor a better future for everyone
with a mental health condition.
(20:01):
But that's not all we're doing this month.
Overlooked is a big part of it.
But, Shannon, you, have worked really hardwith a lot of different stakeholders
to develop a new resource,that I think is really going
to support a lot of NAMI familiesand help them navigate
these really difficultdecisions and situations
that they have to makewhen their loved one becomes involved
(20:23):
with the criminal justice system.
So can you talk about the new resourceand why it's so important
that we, as NAMI, are talking aboutthese things and providing the support?
Yeah, definitely.
So this month we released a new resourcecalled Navigating the Criminal Justice
System, a guide or a resource for peoplewith mental illness in their families.
(20:46):
And this really-- this resourcekind of really stemmed from,
for those of you who are familiarwith NAMI, one of the cornerstone
supports that we offer incommunities are both our programming,
our support programming,as well as kind of our helpline supports.
And I think one of the thingsthat floated up a lot,
(21:07):
kind of especially as somethingI observed in my time here at NAMI,
is that there were a lot of questionsfrom family about what do I do?
How do I get my loved one help?
Just this understanding that,or a lack of understanding,
a lack of knowledge, a lack of resourcesabout what the criminal justice system is
and what it can and should do for you.
(21:34):
And so a lot of our NAMIs have,obviously our NAMI's are in the field,
I'd like to say thatthey are the testing ground for things
that we often do after they have,you know, tested it out and really
perfected it kind of in the field.
And then we bring it upto the national office.
But a number of our NAMI's had createdthese guides that really helped families
(21:57):
navigate the criminal justice system,have a better understanding
of this system, and really feel empoweredto engage with it, not only to advocate
for themselves,but to advocate for their loved one.
And so this guide is really intendedfor those families.
It starts by helping families thinkcritically about how a crisis can turn
(22:24):
into criminal justice system involvementand really thinking through
how preparing for acrisis can mean diversion.
But also, you know,what happens when a crisis may involve
a law enforcement officerand then really kind of leads you through
this path of the criminal justice systemall the way through re-entry.
(22:47):
It's got a lot of really great resourcesin it.
I'd say it's, for the most part,as best as we can.
There's a lot of information,a lot of resources out there.
We had to distill it downinto the most compact
resource we could, which was 65 pageslong.
Don't let that intimidate you.
It's got a lot of links in itabout where you can go, where you can find
(23:09):
other information.
It's got greattips, again, as I mentioned, about
not only how to advocate for yourself,but how to advocate for your loved one,
the best way to engagewith the various entities that exist
within the criminal justice systemso that you know
you can advocate for the best outcome,whether it's with a law enforcement
officer, whether it's talking to,you know, whether someone's facing
(23:34):
prosecution and it's talking to the judge,the prosecutor, or the defense attorney,
whether it's talking to a jailor a sheriff or a warden
about getting your loved one care.
There's a lot of informationand resources in there
that's going to support that for families.
And I think it really fills this gapthat's out there,
that thinks about a family memberand thinks about the family as a whole
(23:59):
as it relates to the criminal justicesystem.
Often resourcesthink about the individual, solutions
think about the individual.
This thinks about the whole familyand the fact that someone who
comes involvedwith the criminal justice system,
especially if they have-- often, you know,if they have a mental illness, it's
not just them,it's their family members as well.
(24:19):
And so this really kind of putsa solid resource
in the hands of those family members,where there hasn't been
a lot of informationor support in the past.
And so, yes, we've been doing thisthrough our support programs
and through our helpline for decades,but this is now, we have the ability
to kind of bring this to a wider audience.
(24:40):
People who might not findthis kind of information
through our support programsor through our helpline.
But now there's this, this resource onlinethat they can access
any time of day when they might be lookingfor information.
So I'm really excited about it.
You know, it's on NAMI's website.
If you go tonam.org/NCJM for National Criminal Justice
(25:00):
Month,you can access all of our National
Criminal Justice Month resources,but also a place to download this guide.
Yeah.
And what I really like about this guideis that if you have a loved one
that you're worried,you know, maybe,
having increasing symptomsand kind of talks,
(25:23):
what you should do to prepareor how you should-- when you call
for help, how-- what you should say,if law enforcement arrives on the scene,
what you should do.
So it can really be a resourcefor families to prepare for a situation
that they hope and God willing,they will never have to deal with, but
to also know what to do in that situation.
(25:44):
And then if that happens, yes.
How do you get your loved one medication?
What are your loved one's rightsand what can you
as a family do to help support them?
There is a lot that talks in thereabout what the individual,
what their rights are,as well as what a family can do to support
and work with them and with their team.
(26:04):
You know, their defense attorney or,with, you know, the prosecutor's office.
There's so much rich information in there.
And you said one word at the outsetthat really highlights it for me.
It's so families can be empowered.
Empowered with information,empowered with tools and resources.
And while it can't cover every possiblescenario, it's linked to
(26:25):
so many additional resourcesthat if a family
is struggling and dealing withthis situation, it really does
kind of direct themto where they need to go.
Because no one expects this, right?
No one wants this, no one expects this.
And so knowingwhere to start is so difficult.
And so it's a great thingto just make sure folks have available.
(26:48):
Again, God forbid you need it.
But just to make sure that, you know,it's there, share it with others.
And make sure you know what to doif you'd ever be in that situation.
So again, that's at nami.org/NCJMfor National Criminal Justice Month.
A great resourceand congratulations on that.
(27:10):
I know that's been, a long projectthat you've really poured a lot into
and got a lot of experts'feedback and families
and folks with lived experience to makesure is the best resource it could be.
So congratulations. Thank you. Absolutely.
And again, encourageeveryone to take advantage of it.
Even if it's not, you know, for you,you never know
(27:32):
who else in your communitymight be able to use it.
So if you are an advocate in the communitylistening to this, please feel free
to download it and we have sent it outto our affiliates, but share it widely.
Share it with anyoneyou know who might be working
in the criminal justice system,because you can also make sure that
this gets into the hands of the peoplewho need it just by making
(27:53):
sure people are aware of it.
Yeah.
And I think it'sa good resource to just for
publicdefenders and defense attorneys
and prosecutors,you know, anyone who's involved
in these situations who may not understandall of the different considerations that
an individual in the family is met with.
(28:14):
If they're concerned about keeping theirloved ones stable, getting them stable.
I think it provides a lot of perspectivefor different folks that may be involved,
not just families.
So I do encourage people to check it outand better understand
what's in there and share it widely.
So that's a great resource that's new.
We just launched that,what are other things
(28:36):
that NAMI's providing to familieswho might have a loved one
involved in the criminal justice system?
Just in our last few minutes,can you speak to
some of the other waysthat NAMI, either at a national level
or at the local level, is getting involvedto support individuals and families?
So NAMI does a variety of things, right?
You know, we have this resource,but you will see,
(28:58):
you know, if you download the resourceand you read it, which I hope you do.
You're going to see in a lot of placesthat we really encourage you
to reach out to your local NAMI because,well, there's a lot of similarities
about the criminal justice systemacross the country, the criminal justice
system itself is incredibly localized.
And our NAMIs are really involvedlocally trying to support families
(29:20):
and advocate for changes locally.
And so other ways that we're really ableto support families, is often we--
well, we dowe offer our NAMI support programming.
A lot of the content,we're starting to build out
and a lot of our NAMIs have built out,create space for families
to talk about this experience,about what it's like being involved
(29:43):
in the criminal justice system.
You know, I would tell anyonewho maybe came up to me and said, look, my
loved ones in the criminal justice system,what can you do to help me?
What are the resources I need?
I would obviously give them informationand resources to the best of my knowledge.
But the other thingthat I'm going to ask them is,
where are you getting support?
Are you getting support?
(30:03):
It can be an incrediblystressful experience.
And so having your own supportso that you can continue
to advocate on behalf of your lovedone is incredibly important.
And so many of our Family to Familysupport groups
will cover informationabout the criminal justice system.
NAMIs have adjustedcontent for their NAMI Connection
(30:25):
programming or their NAMI peerto peer programming,
which are our peer to peer support groupsfor people who have experiences
in the criminal justice system,and to talk about that.
And many of our NAMIs have even startedto take it a step further,
where they're bringing this informationand these programs into jails and prisons
to meet people where they're at,and to really start providing support
(30:47):
to people while they're incarcerated,when there is such a high need
for that kind of support and information.
Whether they knewthey had a mental health condition
when they entered into the justice system,or whether they're
just discovering itwhile they're incarcerated.
It's life changing and transformativewhen I've talked to people
(31:10):
who have experienced this,when I've talked to our leaders
who are supporting thisto make this happen in communities.
It's transformative.
So we do that.
But then also, again, our affiliatesare a wealth of information,
and they have wonderful connectionsin the community.
And so often are able to providemore hyper localized resources for folks,
whether it's, you know, lawyersthey know in the community
(31:34):
who are specifically workedon mental health conditions
or whether they know if there's a mentalhealth court in your community
or other diversion opportunities.
That's the kind of informationthat we can't necessarily call out
in a national guide.
But our NAMIs have a list.
They have that information.
They have those resources locally and so,you know, hats off to our affiliates
(31:55):
because they really are,you know, just a place
of hope and resources for peoplewho are really kind of going through this.
Are NAMI leaders and volunteers,and the advocates on
the ground do incredible work.
And if anyone's listeningthat hasn't connected with their local
(32:17):
NAMI, you can find them at nami.org/local.
But they're the ones who are going to knowwhat's
available, who to talk to.
You know how to get engaged,where you can go for support,
all of the thingsbecause they've been on that road before.
And that's reallywhat NAMI is about, is helping people,
(32:37):
by using your own experienceand trying to make the path
a little bit easier for the next person.
So it's really just incredible,incredible work that's happening
across the country.
And, you know, we'll keep fightingfor fewer families to need that support.
But, NAMI is there while people do.
So thank you, Shannon, for all of this.
(32:57):
And before we wrap up,I'd like to ask you the question
that everyone on this podcast gets asked.
You know,the world can be a very difficult place.
It can be hard to hold on to hope.
So every episode we ask our guests reallywell helps you hold on to hope.
What's giving you hope right now?
Yeah, and I had to think about thisa little bit
(33:18):
and I'll preface my answer in saying that,you know, I think very rapidly
over the last couple of years,we've kind of seen this increased
messaging on the national levelabout the dangerous-- the dangerousness
of people with mental illness,and that we need to use
kind of these criminal--we need to use the justice system
to kind of like, addressall these people with mental illness.
(33:42):
I'm paraphrasing here some of whatthe messaging feels like a lot
as we kind ofconsume news about mental illness.
And I think what gives mehope is that, you know, NAMI
for years has built relationshipsand met people where they're at,
especially criminal justice professionals.
(34:03):
And when I'm out in the community,when I'm talking to law enforcement
leaders, when I'm talking to our NAMIs,when I'm talking to judges,
what I hear from them is not,you know, a change in
perspective on this that we tend to hearfrom the national level.
But, we know what we need to do.
(34:24):
We know that this is not the reality,and we're going to continue to hold hands
to make sure that people are accessingcare,
and are getting the care that they need.
And so I think what gives me hope inthis time is that NAMI has built
those relationships and that trustwith the criminal justice system
that I think locally, we're goingto be able to continue to move forward,
(34:46):
with solutionsthat give people access to care
and that those relationshipswe built are really going to pay dividends
and change people's lives.
So I think that's what's giving me hoperight now, especially
around our work,our criminal justice work in this time.
Yeah. I think that's so true.
You know, NAMI advocates will keep makingthose relationships and keep building
(35:09):
those bridges and communities,and that makes all the difference.
Shannon, thank you so muchfor joining the podcast today.
This has been Hope Starts With Us,a podcast by NAMI,
the National Alliance on Mental Illness.
If you're looking for mental healthresources, you are not alone.
To connect with the bomb HelpLine and findlocal resources, visit nami.org/help.
(35:29):
Text helpline to 62640or dial one 800 950 NAMI
that's 1 (800) 950-6264.
If you're experiencingan immediate suicide, substance
use, or mental health crisis,please call or text 988
to speak with a trained supportspecialist or visit 988lifeline.org.
(35:52):
Again, that'll connect you to the 988Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.
I'm Hannah Wesolowski,your guest host today.
Thanks for listening. Be well.
Amongst the generalpublic, there's a lack of understanding
about mental illness,especially about serious mental illness.
And a lot of timeswhat this leads to is just a belief
that people with mental healthconditions are violent.
But the reality is, is that mentalillness is not an indicator for violence,
and it is definitely not an indicatorfor violent crime.
(00:20):
We often kind of highlightthe statistic that people are more likely
to be a victim of a crimeif they have a mental health condition,
than they are perpetrate a crime.
Welcome to Hope Starts With Us,a podcast by NAMI, the National Alliance
on Mental Illness.
I'm your guest host today,Hannah Wesolowski,
Chief Advocacy Officer at NAMI.
NAMI started this podcast becausewe believe that hope starts with us.
(00:43):
Hope starts with ustalking about mental health.
Hope starts with us making informationaccessible.
Hope starts with usproviding resources and practical advice.
Hope starts with us sharing our stories,and hope starts
with us breaking the stigma.
If you or a loved one is strugglingwith a mental health condition
and have been looking for hope.
We made this podcast for you.
(01:04):
Hope starts with all of us.
Hope is a collective.
We hope that each episode,with each conversation brings
you into that collectiveso you know you are not alone.
TodayI'm excited to talk about NAMI's work
to endthe criminalization of mental illness.
March is National Criminal Justice Month,and this month, NAMI
is promoting our overlook campaignto talk about the intersection
(01:27):
of mental illnessand the criminal justice system.
Far too often, peoplewith mental illness are caught up
in our criminal justice system,and we want to make sure
that we're supporting individualsand families to be diverted away
from criminal justice system involvementand support all the individuals who are
currently engaged in our justice system.
I am so delighted to welcome our guesttoday.
(01:48):
Shannon Scully is the Director of JusticePolicy and Initiatives here at NAMI.
Had the great fortune of workingwith Shannon for the last eight years,
and she leads all of NAMI's workon addressing the criminalization
of people with mental illnessin the criminal justice system
and all of the resources and supportthat we offer to our community.
So welcome, Shannon. Hey,thanks for having me.
(02:10):
I'm glad you're here because you doso much amazing work in this space
and really want to start with,why are we talking about this in March?
What is National Criminal Justice Month?
Why does NAMI recognize this month?
And, really, what is it all about?
Yeah.
So, National Criminal JusticeMonth was a month
that was designated by Congressa number of years ago.
(02:32):
But NAMI's engagement withthis month
really started only a few years back.
So Congress's original intent wasthey were going to create this month
to help people learn about whatour criminal justice system does.
And as we were, you know, Hannah,you were part of this conversation
a few years ago.
We were really looking at,how do we take our advocacy?
(02:56):
How do we take our work around,kind of ending the criminalization
of people with mental illness?
How do we take that to the next level,and how do we really make sure that we're
bringing as much attentionto this intersection as we possibly can?
And we identifiedNational Criminal Justice
Month, one being an education month,but two, a time
(03:16):
where we could take advantage of itto not just educate people
about the criminal justice systemand what it does, but to educate people
about the criminal justice systemand what it doesn't do,
being that it has a huge impact on peoplewith mental illness,
but does not, in fact,kind of overwhelmingly
(03:40):
support kind of the goals that we atNAMI have for a lot of people
living with mental health conditions,which is, to live their lives
in a community,to be able to access support and services
and to, you know, live really kindof fulfilling lives, surrounded
kind of by their community that cares.
And so, we really decided to flip NationalCriminal Justice Month a little bit
(04:05):
on its head and use it more for our ownpurposes to really kind of highlight
what the intersection of mental illnessand the criminal justice system
really means and what that reality meansfor millions of families.
That's great.
And I think we've gottensuch a great response talking about this
and giving people a spaceto share their stories
and to talk about solutionsand talk about opportunities
(04:26):
to better support people.
And instead of relyingon the justice system to be our response.
So let's talk about that intersection ofcriminal justice system and mental health.
Why are people with mental illnessso overrepresented
in our criminal justice system?
And why is thissuch a priority issue for NAMI?
(04:48):
So I think we can start with the data.
And I always kind of like to preferencewhen I give out the data that we know
about the criminal justice system, that,it's my belief and many of the advocates'
that I work with around this countrybelieve that this is an undercount.
The data that we do haveabout the intersection of mental illness
and the criminal justice systemis an undercount, and that the impact,
(05:11):
and the presence of peoplewith mental illness
who are in the criminal justicesystem is much-- the need is
just much greater in that space.
But the data that we do haveis that about 2 million times each year,
somebody with a mental health conditionis booked into one of our nation's jails.
About 44% of the peoplewho are incarcerated in a jail
(05:31):
have a mental health condition.
And about somewhere around35% of people who are incarcerated
in state prisons or federal prisonshave a mental health condition.
And so these numbers really reflectalmost, double
what the rate of mental illnessis in our general population.
And so there's this overrepresentedrepresentation of mental illness
(05:53):
that we're always talking aboutin the criminal justice system.
And, it does beg the question why?
And I think the easiest way to explainthis is that when a system fails
and this is notjust the mental health system,
but we talk about itin the context of mental health system.
But when other systems we have fail,we use the criminal justice system
as a safety net.
(06:17):
So when someone cannot access servicesor there isn't the availability
of services or engagementfor them around their mental health
condition in our community, their symptomsand their untreated symptoms
get to a pointin which, you know, they have fallen
very clearly, fallen through the cracks.
And what catches them,the safety net that we have
(06:37):
chosen is the criminal justice system.
And so,we see this across a number of things.
You know,when someone's having a behavioral health
crisis, law enforcement is the primaryfirst responder for people who are seeking
some kind of help during that crisis.
(06:57):
When someone is homeless, again,we've seen an uptick in policies
that criminalize sleeping on the streets.
And living in homelessness.
So again, we're choosing,kind of these mechanisms which aren't
actually solving the problem, but does,in fact, you know, at least temporarily
kind of address that immediate concern.
(07:21):
And it does lead people to involvement,you know, not only temporarily,
maybe a booking in jail,but can lead to further involvement
within the criminal justice system.
So sometimes there are charges,you know, they might be incarcerated
for extended periods of time.
But usually when we look at folkswith mental health conditions
(07:42):
who are incarcerated, who are involvedin the criminal justice system,
we can trace their story backto not being able to access services.
And, you know, symptomsthat are resulting from untreated
mental health conditionand that indirectly connects
to their involvementin the justice system.
Yeah, we're essentially criminalizingthe symptoms that they have.
(08:06):
Imagineif somebody else was in a health crisis,
like having a heart attackand our response was,
oh, jails the best place to bring them.
That's the only placewe have to give them help. Yeah.
We also, you know,there's a lot of data out there.
And this is a message that NAMI isconstantly trying to push back on.
But there is a, because of our, ouryou know, this has gotten better
(08:28):
a lot in the last several years.
But, you know, amongst the general public,there's a lack of understanding
about mental illness,especially about serious mental illness.
And a lot of timeswhat this leads to is just a belief
that people with mental healthconditions are violent, which then
I think logically stems from there,that of course, we would use
(08:49):
the criminal justice system.
But the reality is, is that mentalillness is not an indicator for violence,
and it is definitely not anindicator for violent crime.
We often kind ofhighlight the statistic that people
are more likely to be a victim of a crimeif they have a mental health condition,
than they are to perpetrate a crime.
And so we do have a different way,and a lot of our work at NAMI,
(09:13):
to kind of break down the stigmaand understanding about mental illness
is really also working towards this goalof trying to break down
this fear that people have about itand an understanding that
or a belief that someonemight be dangerous as a result.
And so, you know, I think that's anotherreally important aspect of this
conversation is just kind of that,misinformation that is out there
(09:35):
that kind of really brings togethermental illness and violence.
It's such an important point.
You know, so much of the narrativethat we hear day in and day out
really perpetuates this idea that peoplewith mental illness
are people to be feared.
And we at NAMI, we know this isn't true.
(09:56):
And, and so much of the workthat you and I do is to try to educate
partners, educate the public,to educate policymakers,
about what this is.
And that'swhere a lot of the stories that we collect
that we're going to talk abouta little bit later, come in.
But before we get to that,can you talk about the policy work
we do on reducing criminal justice systeminvolvement?
(10:19):
And really diverting people awayfrom the justice system?
What are some of the prioritiesthat you have been fighting
for the last eight years at NAMI,and that we prioritize?
Yeah, absolutely.
So I think, you know,the number one way that I think we think
about diverting people and a mechanismthat we use for diverting people from
(10:39):
the criminal justice system is ensuringthey don't even have that first encounter.
And so,we've really focused a lot of our energy
around helping communitiesrethink crisis response.
So if someone's having symptomsand very severe symptoms,
what is that responsethat we're giving them
and ensuring that to the greatest extentpossible, we're not giving them
(11:01):
a law enforcement response.
We're trying to minimizethat law enforcement response.
And when in law enforcement is dispatchedthat we are getting
the skills, we're helping officersget the skills that they need
to identifythat what is happening in front of them,
that they are respondingto, is a mental health crisis.
(11:22):
And what that person needsis to get crisis care
and does not need to be incarcerated.
So we've done this in a variety of ways.
NAMI has been historically really involvedin crisis intervention team programs,
which is really kind of a law enforcementfocused solution.
It involves, a lot of collaborationon the local level to identify solutions
(11:45):
that improve crisis responsewhen it is a law enforcement response. And
that is CIT.
That (11:51):
Crisis Intervention Teams.
Yes, there are folkswho may not be familiar. Yes.
So for those who are not familiaror might just have heard the acronym
Crisis Intervention Team programs is CIT.
And really, you know, what we seeand the great thing
about these types of programswhere it brings together
collaboration is they usually go beyondjust thinking about
(12:14):
how law enforcement is responding,but they think about all the other tools
that communities need in order to betteraddress crisis response.
And so that's where some of our other workhas come in, where we do
a lot of advocacy around the 988 hotlineand ensuring that
resources are allocatedby the federal government and by state
(12:36):
and local governmentsto ensure that anyone during crisis
can dial 988 and be able to connectto a trained crisis counselor.
Ensuring, you know, looking at the waysthat we can expand
and fund mobile crisis teamsso that law enforcement doesn't need
to go out to mental health crisis callsthat we are sending immediately--
(13:00):
You know, we're sending mental healthprofessionals
who are trained to respond to crisesand to provide people
with the supportand referral in the field.
And then, we're also working really hardto ensure
that we're providing alternativesto the emergency room,
and to jails.
So one of the spaces when someone doesn'thave a place to go during a crisis, often
(13:23):
where they land is either in a jailor in an emergency room
or an emergency departmentin the community.
And we're really advocatingto bring crisis receiving centers,
which are, you know, placeswhere someone can go for about 23 hours.
They look kind of like-- we advocatefor them to look like a living room,
but it's a spacethat's supposed to be comforting,
(13:43):
that's supposed to be supportive,that can help someone continue
to de-escalate from their crisis.
And then get referredin to other services.
So that's kind of the front end workthat we really do.
But then we also think,kind of on the other side on reentry
and how we can support someonein coming back into the community.
(14:07):
And one of our bigasks around that
is ensuring that Medicaid--I'm going to get a little wonky here.
I'm going to try to summarizethis the best I can.
But bottom line,when you become incarcerated, Medicaid
can't cover any of your serviceswhile you are incarcerated.
So it's almost like they take awayyour health insurance
(14:27):
while you're incarcerated.
And one of the thingswhen you're returning to the community
after a period of incarceration,there's a lot of things
that's got to get turned back onso you can start building your life again
outside the jail or prison celland one of those things
that can be really hardto get connected to again is Medicaid.
And so, which is, you know, the primary,you know, source of coverage
(14:50):
for mental health care for a lot of peopleand especially for people
who are returning from incarceration.
And so we really tried--we've been really advocating around
a piece of legislationcalled the Reentry Act
and encouraging that Medicaidbe reinstated 30 days
before someone returns for community,so that the second they leave that
(15:13):
that jail or prison door,they have access to that insurance,
they can start making appointmentsin the community and getting connected
to that mental health care.
And then there's not kindof a separation of coverage.
There's not any kind of delayin care for someone during this kind of
very critical time of returningto the community from incarceration.
(15:36):
Those are kind of our two main areas.
Obviously, we do a variety of advocacy.
Shout out to our affiliates who really doa lot of this work
very deeply in their community.
But there's a variety of other solutionsthat we work on.
But these just happen to be the twothat we're most focused on
at the national office at this point.
(15:56):
Yeah, I was going to say,don't sell yourself short.
You talked about how do we help peoplebefore they even interact
with law enforcement.
But you do so much workat different points of diversion,
whether it's sending peopleto mental health courts as an alternative,
whether it's better care and custody,so that people are actually getting
(16:17):
decent quality mental health serviceswhile they're incarcerated.
There's so many aspects to this work,and it's so pivotal
given as you said,with some of the statistics at the outset.
There's such a high representationof people with mental illness
in the criminal justice system.
So there's lots of workbeing done at the National level,
but also at the state and local levelacross the country.
(16:38):
Yeah, absolutely.
And one of those main thingsis, you really kind of,
through our storytellingthat our advocates do
and our and our memberskind of throughout the Alliance do.
So I want to turn the microphone on youa little bit.
As Hannah mentioned, we have beenworking together for eight years now. And,
I like to say I have been working forHannah.
Hannah likes to say we have been workingtogether, but she's been
(17:02):
a really big part of our abilityto do a lot of this advocacy work.
And so I want you to talk a little bitabout kind
of our Overlooked Campaignthat we launched a few years ago.
I'll tell you what it is.
I'll give everyone a little bit of a hint.
It is a storytelling campaignI want you to talk about
a little bit like, why do we storytelland why is, in a campaign
like this, storytelling so pivotal?
(17:24):
Yeah.
You know, the Overlook Campaignhas been really special
because storytelling is so centralto what we do.
We are the organizationof lived experience, and whether it's
an individual's own journey or the journeyfrom the perspective of a loved one,
making sure people understand,policymakers, the public understand
what those experiences are like,is what will change hearts and minds.
(17:48):
You know, we always say facts inform,but it's stories
that move policymakers to action.
And so with Overlooked,it's really about this concept
that people deserve help, not handcuffs.
And we launched it to talk about real stories, to turn it on people's head of whatis criminal justice system's involvement?
(18:10):
What does a person who's been in jailor prison look like, act like?
And hint, they have all kindsof different experiences.
And that's what we really wantto turn on its head that, you know,
it's, it's anyone who, who has,just, you know, unfortunate opportunity
to come in contactwith the criminal justice system
(18:30):
when they're in crisis,or their symptoms have worsened, that
this could be anyone.
And we really just want to normalizethis experience and talk about it
and get it out in the open.
So, that we have greater publicempathy, greater public understanding,
and hopefully more policymaker actionto really change
(18:51):
how we operate and get people better careand get connected to care sooner.
Yeah, definitely.
And so do you want to share when we arerunning this Overlooked Campaign
and how folks can get involvedif they're interested
to kind of take advantage of it?
Yeah. So people can share their stories.
People can advocate,if you go to nami.org/Overlooked,
you can find all these resources.
(19:16):
We're going to be addingstories of people's real experiences
in the criminal justice systemas a result of their mental illness
throughout the month.
We've been recording some amazing stories,and we're excited to get those out there,
but we always want to collect more.
Those stories are what powers our advocacyand getting those stories out
really makes us much more impactful.
(19:37):
So if you go to nami.org/Overlooked,you can find those resources.
You can see some of our existing stories.
You can take action.
And we really do encourage peopleto get involved throughout the year.
But this month is a good opportunityto kick start that engagement.
And, and help us all dream and fightfor a better future for everyone
with a mental health condition.
(20:01):
But that's not all we're doing this month.
Overlooked is a big part of it.
But, Shannon, you, have worked really hardwith a lot of different stakeholders
to develop a new resource,that I think is really going
to support a lot of NAMI familiesand help them navigate
these really difficultdecisions and situations
that they have to makewhen their loved one becomes involved
(20:23):
with the criminal justice system.
So can you talk about the new resourceand why it's so important
that we, as NAMI, are talking aboutthese things and providing the support?
Yeah, definitely.
So this month we released a new resourcecalled Navigating the Criminal Justice
System, a guide or a resource for peoplewith mental illness in their families.
(20:46):
And this really-- this resourcekind of really stemmed from,
for those of you who are familiarwith NAMI, one of the cornerstone
supports that we offer incommunities are both our programming,
our support programming,as well as kind of our helpline supports.
And I think one of the thingsthat floated up a lot,
(21:07):
kind of especially as somethingI observed in my time here at NAMI,
is that there were a lot of questionsfrom family about what do I do?
How do I get my loved one help?
Just this understanding that,or a lack of understanding,
a lack of knowledge, a lack of resourcesabout what the criminal justice system is
and what it can and should do for you.
(21:34):
And so a lot of our NAMIs have,obviously our NAMI's are in the field,
I'd like to say thatthey are the testing ground for things
that we often do after they have,you know, tested it out and really
perfected it kind of in the field.
And then we bring it upto the national office.
But a number of our NAMI's had createdthese guides that really helped families
(21:57):
navigate the criminal justice system,have a better understanding
of this system, and really feel empoweredto engage with it, not only to advocate
for themselves,but to advocate for their loved one.
And so this guide is really intendedfor those families.
It starts by helping families thinkcritically about how a crisis can turn
(22:24):
into criminal justice system involvementand really thinking through
how preparing for acrisis can mean diversion.
But also, you know,what happens when a crisis may involve
a law enforcement officerand then really kind of leads you through
this path of the criminal justice systemall the way through re-entry.
(22:47):
It's got a lot of really great resourcesin it.
I'd say it's, for the most part,as best as we can.
There's a lot of information,a lot of resources out there.
We had to distill it downinto the most compact
resource we could, which was 65 pageslong.
Don't let that intimidate you.
It's got a lot of links in itabout where you can go, where you can find
(23:09):
other information.
It's got greattips, again, as I mentioned, about
not only how to advocate for yourself,but how to advocate for your loved one,
the best way to engagewith the various entities that exist
within the criminal justice systemso that you know
you can advocate for the best outcome,whether it's with a law enforcement
officer, whether it's talking to,you know, whether someone's facing
(23:34):
prosecution and it's talking to the judge,the prosecutor, or the defense attorney,
whether it's talking to a jailor a sheriff or a warden
about getting your loved one care.
There's a lot of informationand resources in there
that's going to support that for families.
And I think it really fills this gapthat's out there,
that thinks about a family memberand thinks about the family as a whole
(23:59):
as it relates to the criminal justicesystem.
Often resourcesthink about the individual, solutions
think about the individual.
This thinks about the whole familyand the fact that someone who
comes involvedwith the criminal justice system,
especially if they have-- often, you know,if they have a mental illness, it's
not just them,it's their family members as well.
(24:19):
And so this really kind of putsa solid resource
in the hands of those family members,where there hasn't been
a lot of informationor support in the past.
And so, yes, we've been doing thisthrough our support programs
and through our helpline for decades,but this is now, we have the ability
to kind of bring this to a wider audience.
(24:40):
People who might not findthis kind of information
through our support programsor through our helpline.
But now there's this, this resource onlinethat they can access
any time of day when they might be lookingfor information.
So I'm really excited about it.
You know, it's on NAMI's website.
If you go tonam.org/NCJM for National Criminal Justice
(25:00):
Month,you can access all of our National
Criminal Justice Month resources,but also a place to download this guide.
Yeah.
And what I really like about this guideis that if you have a loved one
that you're worried,you know, maybe,
having increasing symptomsand kind of talks,
(25:23):
what you should do to prepareor how you should-- when you call
for help, how-- what you should say,if law enforcement arrives on the scene,
what you should do.
So it can really be a resourcefor families to prepare for a situation
that they hope and God willing,they will never have to deal with, but
to also know what to do in that situation.
(25:44):
And then if that happens, yes.
How do you get your loved one medication?
What are your loved one's rightsand what can you
as a family do to help support them?
There is a lot that talks in thereabout what the individual,
what their rights are,as well as what a family can do to support
and work with them and with their team.
(26:04):
You know, their defense attorney or,with, you know, the prosecutor's office.
There's so much rich information in there.
And you said one word at the outsetthat really highlights it for me.
It's so families can be empowered.
Empowered with information,empowered with tools and resources.
And while it can't cover every possiblescenario, it's linked to
(26:25):
so many additional resourcesthat if a family
is struggling and dealing withthis situation, it really does
kind of direct themto where they need to go.
Because no one expects this, right?
No one wants this, no one expects this.
And so knowingwhere to start is so difficult.
And so it's a great thingto just make sure folks have available.
(26:48):
Again, God forbid you need it.
But just to make sure that, you know,it's there, share it with others.
And make sure you know what to doif you'd ever be in that situation.
So again, that's at nami.org/NCJMfor National Criminal Justice Month.
A great resourceand congratulations on that.
(27:10):
I know that's been, a long projectthat you've really poured a lot into
and got a lot of experts'feedback and families
and folks with lived experience to makesure is the best resource it could be.
So congratulations. Thank you. Absolutely.
And again, encourageeveryone to take advantage of it.
Even if it's not, you know, for you,you never know
(27:32):
who else in your communitymight be able to use it.
So if you are an advocate in the communitylistening to this, please feel free
to download it and we have sent it outto our affiliates, but share it widely.
Share it with anyoneyou know who might be working
in the criminal justice system,because you can also make sure that
this gets into the hands of the peoplewho need it just by making
(27:53):
sure people are aware of it.
Yeah.
And I think it'sa good resource to just for
publicdefenders and defense attorneys
and prosecutors,you know, anyone who's involved
in these situations who may not understandall of the different considerations that
an individual in the family is met with.
(28:14):
If they're concerned about keeping theirloved ones stable, getting them stable.
I think it provides a lot of perspectivefor different folks that may be involved,
not just families.
So I do encourage people to check it outand better understand
what's in there and share it widely.
So that's a great resource that's new.
We just launched that,what are other things
(28:36):
that NAMI's providing to familieswho might have a loved one
involved in the criminal justice system?
Just in our last few minutes,can you speak to
some of the other waysthat NAMI, either at a national level
or at the local level, is getting involvedto support individuals and families?
So NAMI does a variety of things, right?
You know, we have this resource,but you will see,
(28:58):
you know, if you download the resourceand you read it, which I hope you do.
You're going to see in a lot of placesthat we really encourage you
to reach out to your local NAMI because,well, there's a lot of similarities
about the criminal justice systemacross the country, the criminal justice
system itself is incredibly localized.
And our NAMIs are really involvedlocally trying to support families
(29:20):
and advocate for changes locally.
And so other ways that we're really ableto support families, is often we--
well, we dowe offer our NAMI support programming.
A lot of the content,we're starting to build out
and a lot of our NAMIs have built out,create space for families
to talk about this experience,about what it's like being involved
(29:43):
in the criminal justice system.
You know, I would tell anyonewho maybe came up to me and said, look, my
loved ones in the criminal justice system,what can you do to help me?
What are the resources I need?
I would obviously give them informationand resources to the best of my knowledge.
But the other thingthat I'm going to ask them is,
where are you getting support?
Are you getting support?
(30:03):
It can be an incrediblystressful experience.
And so having your own supportso that you can continue
to advocate on behalf of your lovedone is incredibly important.
And so many of our Family to Familysupport groups
will cover informationabout the criminal justice system.
NAMIs have adjustedcontent for their NAMI Connection
(30:25):
programming or their NAMI peerto peer programming,
which are our peer to peer support groupsfor people who have experiences
in the criminal justice system,and to talk about that.
And many of our NAMIs have even startedto take it a step further,
where they're bringing this informationand these programs into jails and prisons
to meet people where they're at,and to really start providing support
(30:47):
to people while they're incarcerated,when there is such a high need
for that kind of support and information.
Whether they knewthey had a mental health condition
when they entered into the justice system,or whether they're
just discovering itwhile they're incarcerated.
It's life changing and transformativewhen I've talked to people
(31:10):
who have experienced this,when I've talked to our leaders
who are supporting thisto make this happen in communities.
It's transformative.
So we do that.
But then also, again, our affiliatesare a wealth of information,
and they have wonderful connectionsin the community.
And so often are able to providemore hyper localized resources for folks,
whether it's, you know, lawyersthey know in the community
(31:34):
who are specifically workedon mental health conditions
or whether they know if there's a mentalhealth court in your community
or other diversion opportunities.
That's the kind of informationthat we can't necessarily call out
in a national guide.
But our NAMIs have a list.
They have that information.
They have those resources locally and so,you know, hats off to our affiliates
(31:55):
because they really are,you know, just a place
of hope and resources for peoplewho are really kind of going through this.
Are NAMI leaders and volunteers,and the advocates on
the ground do incredible work.
And if anyone's listeningthat hasn't connected with their local
(32:17):
NAMI, you can find them at nami.org/local.
But they're the ones who are going to knowwhat's
available, who to talk to.
You know how to get engaged,where you can go for support,
all of the thingsbecause they've been on that road before.
And that's reallywhat NAMI is about, is helping people,
(32:37):
by using your own experienceand trying to make the path
a little bit easier for the next person.
So it's really just incredible,incredible work that's happening
across the country.
And, you know, we'll keep fightingfor fewer families to need that support.
But, NAMI is there while people do.
So thank you, Shannon, for all of this.
(32:57):
And before we wrap up,I'd like to ask you the question
that everyone on this podcast gets asked.
You know,the world can be a very difficult place.
It can be hard to hold on to hope.
So every episode we ask our guests reallywell helps you hold on to hope.
What's giving you hope right now?
Yeah, and I had to think about thisa little bit
(33:18):
and I'll preface my answer in saying that,you know, I think very rapidly
over the last couple of years,we've kind of seen this increased
messaging on the national levelabout the dangerous-- the dangerousness
of people with mental illness,and that we need to use
kind of these criminal--we need to use the justice system
to kind of like, addressall these people with mental illness.
(33:42):
I'm paraphrasing here some of whatthe messaging feels like a lot
as we kind ofconsume news about mental illness.
And I think what gives mehope is that, you know, NAMI
for years has built relationshipsand met people where they're at,
especially criminal justice professionals.
(34:03):
And when I'm out in the community,when I'm talking to law enforcement
leaders, when I'm talking to our NAMIs,when I'm talking to judges,
what I hear from them is not,you know, a change in
perspective on this that we tend to hearfrom the national level.
But, we know what we need to do.
(34:24):
We know that this is not the reality,and we're going to continue to hold hands
to make sure that people are accessingcare,
and are getting the care that they need.
And so I think what gives me hope inthis time is that NAMI has built
those relationships and that trustwith the criminal justice system
that I think locally, we're goingto be able to continue to move forward,
(34:46):
with solutionsthat give people access to care
and that those relationshipswe built are really going to pay dividends
and change people's lives.
So I think that's what's giving me hoperight now, especially
around our work,our criminal justice work in this time.
Yeah. I think that's so true.
You know, NAMI advocates will keep makingthose relationships and keep building
(35:09):
those bridges and communities,and that makes all the difference.
Shannon, thank you so muchfor joining the podcast today.
This has been Hope Starts With Us,a podcast by NAMI,
the National Alliance on Mental Illness.
If you're looking for mental healthresources, you are not alone.
To connect with the bomb HelpLine and findlocal resources, visit nami.org/help.
(35:29):
Text helpline to 62640or dial one 800 950 NAMI
that's 1 (800) 950-6264.
If you're experiencingan immediate suicide, substance
use, or mental health crisis,please call or text 988
to speak with a trained supportspecialist or visit 988lifeline.org.
(35:52):
Again, that'll connect you to the 988Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.
I'm Hannah Wesolowski,your guest host today.
Thanks for listening. Be well.
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