In this key episode, NAMI explores how becoming a parent brings many changes to anyone’s life. To add to the changes, balancing new or forthcoming parenthood with mental health conditions might feel difficult.
Guest host Barb Solish, NAMI’s National Director of Innovation, is joined by Kate Kennedy-Lynch, NAMI Director of External Relations, and Alessandra Torresani, actress, podcast host, and NAMI Ambassador. They discuss their own lived experiences navigating mental health conditions before, during, and after their pregnancies, sharing what they’ve learned throughout their mental health journeys. Finally, they share ways they’ve found to balance mental health and parenthood for Mental Health Awareness Month and Maternal Mental Health Month.
You can find additional episodes of this NAMI podcast and others at nami.org/podcast.
"Hope Starts With Us" is a podcast by NAMI, the National Alliance on Mental Illness. It is hosted by NAMI CEO Daniel H. Gillison, Jr.
Co-executive produced by Traci Coulter and Connor Larsen.
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I think that that's why maternal mentalhealth has become so important to me
even more so than regular mental health,even though I live with the mental illness
because it's somethingthat's not talked about as candidly.
Because as moms, we are so fearfulthat we are going to lose
the one thing that we've worked so hardto be able to protect and keep safe.
But I want to change that stigma,and I want to say, hey, it's okay
(00:23):
to vocalize it.
They're not going to take your baby awaylike we're just here to help, and let's
all figure out the safest and best wayto make you the best version of yourself.
Welcome to Help Starts With Us,a podcast by NAMI,
the National Alliance on Mental Illness.
I'm your guest host, Barb Solish, NAMI'sDirector of Innovation
joining Hope Starts With Us todayto discuss a topic I care deeply
(00:45):
about with two women who I admire,and I'm so excited to chat with.
NAMI started this podcast becausewe believe that hope starts with us.
Hope starts with ustalking about mental health.
Hope starts with us making informationaccessible.
Hope starts with usproviding resources and practical advice.
Hope starts with us sharing our stories.
(01:06):
Hope starts with us breaking the stigma.
If you or a loved one is strugglingwith a mental health condition
and have been looking for hope,we made this podcast for you.
Hope starts with all of us.
Hope is a collective, so we hope that eachepisode, with each conversation
brings you into that collectiveso you know you are not alone.
Hi everyone, I'm Barb Solish,your guest host today.
(01:29):
Just to introduce myself a little,like so many people
who come to NAMI,I live with mental health conditions.
My symptomsstarted early in my teen years,
but I didn't get treatmentuntil my college age time.
So it turns out that I'm a statistic.
11 years is the average delay betweenthe onset of symptoms and treatment.
(01:51):
So I'm at NAMIbecause I want to change that.
I'm also here because I lost a dear friendto suicide in 2017.
His family turned to NAMIin their darkest hour,
and they found supportand hope when they need it the most.
So it's an honor to work here,and it's an honor to host today's episode
on a topic that means so much to meprofessionally, but also as a mom.
(02:15):
May is Maternal Mental HealthAwareness Month, and we're shining a light
on the experiences of momsliving with mental health conditions,
whether they've been managing themfor years or only since pregnancy.
So let me share a quicksnapshot of maternal mental health.
Maternal mental health refers to mentalwell-being during the perinatal period,
(02:36):
which means during pregnancyand up to about two years after birth.
Every year, 500,000 pregnant womenin the US experience
a mental health condition, but75% of them don't get the mental health
treatment they deserve.
So there's a lot to discuss on this topic.
I am thrilled that I'm joined todayby two incredible guests: Kate
(02:58):
Kennedy-Lynch, NAMI'sDirector of External Relations,
and AlessandraTorresani, a NAMI ambassador.
Kate, Alessandra, can you kick us offby introducing yourselves and
sharing a little bit about how you foundNAMI and your mental health journeys?
So as Barb said, I'm Kate Kennedy-Lynch,I'm the Director of External Relations
for NAMI National, which means that I havethe immense pleasure of working
(03:18):
with our incredible corporate partnersand funders to ensure that the work
NAMI does continues to happen.
I actually started my careerin event production,
so I had a little bit of a careerjourney straight out of college.
I was in the sales.
I was kind of a sales associate at acatering company down here outside of DC.
(03:41):
And then, after that moved upto New York City and was working for
an incredible agency thereproducing events of all shapes and sizes.
And then in 2019, had our daughter,which is very exciting.
And as soon as shewas born, I felt terrible.
(04:02):
And so I,you know, I would talk to other friends
who had babies around the same time.
They'd say like, oh, I feel pretty good.
I'd say, I have no idea what that means.
Like, I just have no idea.
And so finally, there was a, you know,some email from some list that said,
if you feel baby blues for a few days,it's one thing.
If you're feeling symptomsfor two weeks or more,
(04:24):
you should probably see some help.
So I took that as my sign.
And that was about six weeks.
So I, you know, told my ob-gynwhen I went in for my singular,
you know, postpartum check in andshe recommended
some therapists and things.
And of course, thatlist was mixed in terms of
(04:46):
people being available onthat list and practices
having closed and things.
And so finally then I asked thefacilitator,
I guess, of our new parent support groupthat I went to at a yoga studio
in Brooklyn.
I'm still friends with a lot of those momsactually, which is very nice.
But she recommended some folks.
(05:07):
And so I reached out and I explainedsome of my symptoms to this therapist.
And I'm happyto talk about my symptoms, too.
Just as a content note.
I'm happy to share them.
So if you want to fast forward,you certainly can. But,
the story that I told herthat sort of led to the diagnosis was that
I was having some suicidal ideation,which is why I flagged this for my mom and
(05:29):
my doctor.
But then the storythat I told my therapist one time
is that my daughter was-- this was--so this was much later, actually.
She was 7 or 8 months,like she was sitting up.
I remember we were sitting on the groundat the playground.
She picked up a piece of bark, likefrom the playground and popped it in
her mouth, as babies do.
And, I,you know, we fished it out of her mouth
(05:49):
right away, no problem.
But I sat there and just stared at herand thought like, what if I hadn't?
What if there'sstill a piece in her throat?
What if there's still somethingthat's going to get stuck there
and it's going to ruin her life? Like,what do we do?
Do I stick my finger back in thereand be sure we got everything?
Like I'ma terrible--I can't believe I did that.
I can't believeI let her put that in her mouth.
(06:12):
And so I told her that and she said,you know what I think you have,
she said, beyond postpartumdepression or postpartum anxiety,
she said, I think you have postpartum OCD.
And I said, what?
What is that?
I had no idea. I'd never heard of it.
You know,in 2019, it feels like the postpartum
anxiety conversation was just starting.
(06:33):
And so that was when I sort of was like,oh, there's this sort of spiraling
thoughts aspect to this.
And what are my compulsions?
Like, I kind of didn'tI don't know what my compulsions,
you know, I was like, oh, I'm--I wash the bottle parts all the time.
And I, you know, those kinds of things.
But the obsessive thinkingwas actually sort
of the outstanding piece of my journey.
(06:55):
So then I had my son and, you know,I continued therapy.
I had my son in 2022 afterI had come to NAMI in 2021
and felt really goodafter his birth, I finally felt I was--
I remember saying to my mom, I'm like,this is what people talk about
whenever they feel good after birth.
And then slowlybut surely, you know, about a year later,
(07:17):
as I was weaning breastfeeding,all my symptoms came rushing back.
And having the opportunityto be at NAMI, I talked to colleagues far
and wide who shared their storiesand talked about SSRIs or antidepressants.
We talked about psychotics.
We talked about their journey with,you know, we were talking about long
(07:40):
acting injectableswith some of our partners.
Like, really, it, for me,changed my perception of medication.
And so that was when I sought treatmentwith a psychiatrist,
restarted my therapy journey,and finally feel like things are,
you know, in a pretty good place, so--Can I ask a follow up question
(08:00):
before I go?
Of course. I just.
I feel like I'm in the middleof a therapy session
right now where I'm feeling thislike aha moment where I've, I've heard
of the postpartum OCD,but it's something
that was never brought up to me, I guess.
(08:21):
I, you know,I guess I'll get into my story, but
I alwaysfelt mine was just postpartum anxiety.
But when you just said the compulsivethoughts and all that and like,
that is exactly what I had.
And like, I never heard that.
It makes so much sensebecause I am someone who suffers
(08:42):
OCD and I have my whole life,and it's funny, it's always helped me
in the benefits of my mathematics in classwhere I was a number OCD person, where,
you know, I always had to add thingsto become one number.
Or if I see a license plate,I have to remember that number.
Those are the kind of compulsions.
It's less the typical OCD people thinkthat's like, oh, you're
(09:05):
just a clean freak,or you're like, washing your hands
all the time, like,mine is definitely mathematical.
But I was having such obsessivethoughts over and over every single day
that certain things would trigger.
And so hearingyou say that, I'm kind of like,
oh my God, like,I need to go talk to somebody
because that's exactly what I'm goingthrough, still, like.
(09:28):
Yeah, it's wild, isn't it?
I had a colleagueactually come forward too after,
I think I shared my story somewherewithin the organization,
and she said, I have that too,and I thought I was the only person.
And I said, me too.
I mean, I was the only one that I knewwho had that diagnosis,
but it's, you know, it'son the international OCD Foundation
website as a,you know, it's a subset of OCD
like it's a real--it's a real thing.
(09:52):
It's a real thing.
Wow. Well, Kate,that was so beautiful. Wow.
Thank you for sharing that.
Yeah.
Thank you so much.
And I remember you talking to me actuallyshortly after starting medication.
And I remember you saying,you know, I've lived with this
for so long and all of a sudden for you,the voices of those compulsions
and those intrusive thoughts quieted.
(10:16):
And how that was just so different.
And, but you being open about that to mewas special, too.
Like, just having these conversationsmakes a really big difference.
Yeah, it really does. It really does.
So Alessandra,tell us a little bit about your story.
Oh my gosh.
I have so much that I want to share,but I'll do it in a very like pint-sized
version.
(10:39):
I'm an actressand I, you know, I'm
very in touch with my emotions.
I always have been my entire life.
I feel like I was born to do this.
But for me, I was showingsigns of what I did not know
was bipolar one disorderfrom a very, very, very young age,
starting at about three yearsold, maybe even a little bit before,
(11:01):
but I was not formally diagnoseduntil I was about 21 years old
after having a severepanic attack on a set
and actually being diagnosed,or not being diagnosed,
but being introduced to the conceptof bipolar disorder from an acupuncturist
who actually workedwith a lot of creative types.
(11:24):
And I was explaining my symptomsand all the things, and he said,
I really think that you needto talk to a professional
and bring up bipolar disorder.
This sounds maybe possiblythis is what it could be.
This was after, Barb, we were talkinghow it takes 11 years for a diagnosis.
This is after years of mebeing put on antidepressants,
and that made my highs higherand my lows lower and gave me
(11:46):
suicidal ideationsthat I never had before.
You know, the misdiagnosis is so--that's a whole other episode
and a whole other storywhere that it's so tricky, right?
And still,here we are, someone who's-- Right?
I'm an ambassador.
I believe in therapy.
I believe in medication.
I'm like, wait a second, Kate,I feel like that's what I have.
(12:07):
And I never heard that before.
It's always a new discovery.
So when I chose to start having--trying to have a baby,
I actually got off my medicationslowly, slowly, slowly.
It was a very long processwith lots of doctors
and lots of professionals aroundme guiding me through,
making sure I was okay.
(12:28):
And, well, there--the second trimester
was very tough for me,which is apparently supposed to be the
happiest trimester, for me, it was not.
And so hearing that stigma over and over,I felt like,
oh, something's wrong with me.
Like I should be happy.
Why am I feeling the worst I've ever felt?
Why do I not want to continue on?
(12:48):
I had my baby and she's here now and she'salmost three and she's wonderful.
Her name is Lady.
But something that I was not expecting,even though I host a mental health podcast
and I had all the maternal mental healthspecialists on,
I was not expecting to get postpartumanxiety.
I was not expecting to have severe,graphic, intrusive thoughts all the time.
(13:15):
You know, I wasn't expecting any of this.
And so even though I was preparedfrom hearing all these stories
and all this,I didn't know what to experience
because I hadn't experienced it yet.
And I felt scared to talk about,even through my pregnancy,
I felt scared to talk aboutif I was having suicidal ideations,
(13:37):
if I was having these severeintrusive thoughts.
Very scary, graphic things,because I was like, oh, they're going
to take my baby away from me.
So I don't want to say anything, you know?
And I was very lucky to have had createdso many resources through NAMI,
through my own podcast,through just friends and family
and having that support system around me.
(14:00):
But it's a very scary, lonely time.
And I don't know if you girls wentthrough this, but I had such a support
system and I felt lonelier than I ever hadin my entire life.
Which was crazy, right?
Like why? You know?
But now to look back at it.
But I find that it was a blessingthat I experienced what I did in a way,
(14:21):
because now I feel finally at a partin my-- of my journey,
almost three years postpartum,where I can talk to other moms
who may be going through it.
And, you know, Kate, I'm so happythat you shared what you did because now
I'm like, oh, that's what that was.
Okay, now I can identify that.
(14:42):
Now I can go and work on that issuethat still is inside me.
But just on a side note,I think a lot of women have wonderful
first pregnanciesand they think, oh, this is amazing.
And they have--the postpartum experience is wonderful.
And then it's almost the second timearound that sometimes it could be really
triggering or something comes upor you get the postpartum anxiety
and you didn't have it the first time,so you think something's severely wrong.
(15:05):
And I actually have been, you know,speaking with a few people in my life
who are on that second journey, you know,through pregnancy and postpartum.
And they didn't experience itthe first time.
And so I'm so lucky that I havethese resources and I can be like,
you know what?
I these you listen to this podcast,I think this is going to help you
or I think you should reach outto this organization.
There's a great, you know, mom groupor mom circle that you can join.
(15:29):
I think that that'swhy maternal mental health
has become so important to me, even moreso than regular,
you know, mental health,even though I live with the mental illness
because it's somethingthat's not talked about as candidly,
because as moms, we are so fearfulthat we are going to lose
the one thing that we've worked so hardto be able to protect and keep safe,
(15:49):
you know, but I want to change thatstigma, and I want to say, hey, it's
okay to vocalize it.
They're not going to take your baby away.
Like, we're just here to help.
And let's all figure out the safestand best way to make you
the best version of yourself.
That was a really long winded answer.
I'm sorry.
No, it's so helpful. It was so helpful.
(16:11):
And you know, I can relate to you a lot.
One, because I have both bipolartype two and going into pregnancy,
it was sochallenging to talk about medication
and to figure out what I needed to doand what was risky, what was not risky,
and this whole range of things.
But there was actually an element for meof feeling like it was a hidden strength
(16:32):
in that I knew what to look for,for mental health conditions, right?
Even though, you know,you may not feel like you can act on them.
You know, maybe you're not goingto get the-- ask for the support.
But at least you know whatsigns and symptoms
those are for your mental health conditionthat you currently have, right?
I can chime in on that.
Yeah, I had the opposite experience.
(16:54):
You know, supposedly, you know,in talking to therapists and psychiatrists
and stuff over the years, like, I guessI probably lived with an element of OCD
before this happened, right?
Like it's alwaysbeen there to some degree,
but I had no idea what to look for.
And I had, you know, the thingsthat I was experiencing were so different
than the things on the Instagram carouselsabout postpartum depression,
(17:15):
and it just didn't look like anythingthat anybody was experiencing.
And then, Alessandra,to your point, which, thank you
for sharing your incredible story,I felt like I was sitting there, you know,
I was living in New York City,I have an incredible partner
and this, like, beautiful baby.
And it's like,why do I feel so-- you know, I have a job.
And yeah, everything was, everythingwas, you know, on the surface, very,
(17:39):
you know, right.
Like everything should have,should have come out a certain way.
And that feeling of--and I think it's a mom feeling
like I should be able to do it alland I shouldn't feel terrible.
And I have all the resources in the world,but still feel so--
you know, it's really it'san interesting thing to experience,
(17:59):
sort of for the first time on the,on the back end of pregnancy too.
So it's,so interesting to hear your all stories
kind of heading into pregnancy that way.
And then mineis like coming out of pregnancy.
So it really-- it'ssuch an all encompassing conversation.
So let me ask you then, both of you,what you wish,
both respectively, would have known.
So whether having a mental healthcondition or not,
(18:24):
wish someone would have said upfront, hey,FYI, this.
What could have been helpful to you?
I don't know,because that's like my honest answer.
Because I'll say thissomeone had recently reached out
and was like, hey, you know,what are your top
maternal mental healthepisodes of your podcast?
Can you send them to me?
And I was like looking back at them.
(18:45):
And I was like, oh my God, I can't believeI had one of the heads of Cedars-Sinai.
It's a huge hospitalhere. It's where I gave birth.
She was one of the heads of the,you know, postpartum
area, you know, of-- my mom brain, right?
It's a real thing.
You know, one of the areas.
And anyways,I had this specialist on and like,
I didn't listen to anything she said.
(19:07):
Like, I didn't digest anything, right?
I listened, I edited the podcast.
I was the one that put it out.
I was the one that did the social media.
But like, I guess I didn't absorb itin the way that I wanted to
because there were so many like,incredible resources and things
that she had given in that episodethat I was just like at a loss.
And I think when, you know,you're just so drained after birth
(19:32):
that it's like so hard for youto think about anything else
because you literally switch,especially the first six weeks of like,
you go into survival mode, you know,and you're like, I have to survive
and I have to keep this baby alive.
And I remember I wouldn'teven let my husband push the buggy
because I was like,oh my gosh, the buggy is going to let go.
(19:52):
It's going to go down the streetlike it's going to like fall and crash
and like that's--and I mean, that was going through
the first like, you know, six weeks.
And then it continued with the intrusive,obsessive thoughts, you know.
So I mean,I guess the thing that I wish I knew
is, I wish I knew earlier other momsthat maybe were going through immediately
(20:12):
what I was going throughbecause hearing it from someone
who's experienced it, that was great.
But the moment I felt heardand the moment I felt like a safe space,
if you will, was when I started a mommusic class and it was like,
I think a Lady was like 11weeks old and I was like a crazy person
(20:34):
hosting sitting at my house.
I was like, I don't care.
Like, I just need these momsbecause it was the
actual physical connection of just knowingsomeone else is experiencing
something at the same time as you,and to know you're not alone.
Like I think that that'swhat I wish I had.
It's not what I wish I knew.
I wish I had that a little bit earliergoing through it.
(20:57):
Yeah. I love that. I love that.
My mother-in-law actually told me,hey, sign up for a support group now.
And that was like when I was six monthspregnant.
Sign up now.
And it wasn't a specific--it was just moms getting together
and it made such a big difference.
We met like three weeksafter I'd given birth.
So right away, really.
(21:17):
And you start that communityand it makes a really big difference.
And I'll make a quick plugfor our partner, our friends at Postpartum
Support International.
They have amazing support groups,free support groups online for all sorts
of postpartum conditions,for pregnancy loss and so much more.
So I'm just-- Oh, I love that.
Oh they're fantastic. Yeah.
And I actually--Imean, I'm in the same, in a similar boat.
(21:40):
I think that was one of the things too,that, I don't know if anybody told me that
or if it was something thatwe just kind of found at our yoga studio,
the new parent support group.
But it is the one thingthat I always pass along, too.
I mean, if you do one thing,get yourself some people around you
who have experienced or are experiencingthe same thing, like you said, Alessandra,
at the same time,I think I'm similar to you, actually.
(22:01):
I don't know thatthere's anything that I--
you know, it would have been nice to knowabout postpartum
OCD, like, would have been nice to knowthat that existed.
But, you know,this is the first time that I'm speaking
in sort of a public way about it,but I, I speak pretty widely,
even asprivately about my experience,
because I just feel likeif I had known somebody,
(22:22):
if I had seen somebody who was goingthrough it or talked about it or said,
you know, I'm thinking about medicationor oh, yeah,
I'm going to take medication, like,whatever.
It's no big deal.
You know, I think that that would havemaybe would have changed
my own perception of myselfmore than anything else,
that it'sthe thing that people experience and,
(22:44):
you know, shows up fairly commonly.
And, so I think I'm actually the same.
I think that it, it's part of the reasonthat I share my story so much
is because I really needed that.
And I think it's such an important pieceof postpartum journey.
Thank you, Kate.
Thanks so much for sharing,too, both of you.
I mean, this is like, it's a big deal.
(23:04):
It's a big deal to share your story, andit makes a huge impact as you were saying.
I think with you both,I feel like I'm in such a--
this is like my two best friends.
Like, because we've all experienced it.
Yeah, we've been through it!That's why I'm so strong and community.
And I feel like honestly, the moms that I,you know, started this music class with.
(23:24):
I'm still so close with them years laterbecause, you know,
some of them are on to their secondand some are on their third babies
already, you know, and it's just likebeing able to know
that we went through it togetherand like the tough times and you know, oh,
you know, is your baby doing this?
Like, are they hitting this milestone?
And it was lessabout like a competitive edge.
(23:45):
It was more of just like, hey, you know,I'm really going through a tough time.
Can someone help me out here, like--or what do you recommend?
Or, you know, we had a friend in our groupwhose father, you know,
got very sick with cancer and passed awayduring that experience.
And, you know, she really just countedon all the moms to kind of get together
and just do like a circle of,you know, good energy.
(24:08):
And so I feel like that'swhy it's so important.
It's less about like, being like friends,like, so your babies have friends.
It's not about that. It's about you.
I'll say one more thing that I wishthat people would have said to me.
I wish that people would haveput more postpartum care
on my baby shower,and like your baby registry,
like there's this amazing companycalled Anya, and they're a postpartum,
(24:31):
like, supplements. They have tonics.
It's all about, like,you know, helping with your breast milk.
It's a very, like, it'san amazing company. It's fabulous.
But I wish, like, that was on my birthing,you know, a whole thing.
Like, for everything.
Like it was like I didn't need a babyonesie, you know what I mean?
Like, that was nice, but it was like,I don't think we care about the
(24:51):
mom going through that.
And it's of no--anyone's fault.
It's just,I think that maybe if you are a mom,
be more sensitive to thatand make sure the moms okay.
Like, bring them soup, you know,I mean just the postpartum care of like,
community and family.
Like we forget tribes,you know what I mean?
It was likewe used to have, like, these huge,
(25:14):
like, families that would take care of oneanother for weeks on end.
And you didn't have to worry about that.
We don't have that anymore.
And so if you could be that familyand that tribe for your friend, like,
I think you could do, that.
Community is so important-- so,so important with family.
And I will say there's pluses and minuses.
I'm thinkingbecause, there's no shortage of advice
(25:36):
when you're pregnant,I feel like from your community.
You know, like don't eat sushi,don't take hot baths,
don't sneeze too hard.
But not a lot about mental health.
That feels a little murkier.
I did not get a lot of information goingthrough pregnancy about my mental health.
I had my own information working at NAMIand my own experience, but I'm curious
(25:59):
if you all have any thoughts on like,misconceptions or myths
you've heard about pregnancyand or motherhood and mental health?
Anything that you feel likethat should maybe be cleared up.
I mean, I feel like everyone told methe second trimester was like the best.
And so that was likethe biggest myth or misconception I had.
(26:21):
You know, it's like everyone's like,oh, once you get the first trimester,
once you get through it, like, it'sso beautiful,
and then you, like, the third trimester,it gets tough again.
And so for me,I felt like truly an insane person
that needed to be in, like,a hospital, you know,
because I was so mentally illand so sick at that point.
And I just felt likethe world was caving in on me.
(26:44):
And I didn't understandhearing other people say that
this should be the most joyous time.
And I think when you're told somethingand you're feeling
the complete opposite, you're like,something's wrong.
Like, I'm sick, I'm sick.
But then I was afraid to admitthat I was sick because I had done so
well on not being on the medicationand taking almost a year to,
(27:07):
you know, conceive so we could not be onthe medication, you know,
and so I think that that was really,really tough.
And, and I would say that, yeah, I thinkthat everyone's experience is different.
And so never say, oh,once you get through this moment
you'll be fine because you don't knowif someone's going to be fine.
That's great advice.
Yeah, that is great advice.
(27:28):
I don't know if it's a myth so much, but,and you know,
maybe it's a little bit back to our lastpart of our last conversation too.
But I feel like it wouldbe amazing to have a little bit
more postpartummental health care
built into the postpartum period.
Or more opportunitiesfor check-ins
(27:49):
or just the normalization of, Alessandra,like you were saying, like everybody's
experience being so different.
And so in the postpartum period,I think it would be amazing
if we're able to ensurethat somebody in a woman's circle,
whether it's a clinician or part of the,you know, continuum of care
or whatever it is, or if it's just likesomebody in their lives
(28:12):
is not saying like, don't eat this.
This isn't how you swaddle a baby.
Don't-- you know, like somebody saying,hey, how are you doing?
How are you holding it up?
And not just in a, like, oh,you know, not sleeping, but really in a--
but like, is that okay?
(28:32):
Are you okay, though?
You know,I think that's kind of the--like,
if you, you listeners, dear listeners,if you can be that person in somebody's
life and just be there to listen to themand support them
and--I think that would be the nicest.
Something that I experienced thatI just thought of that really actually
(28:54):
helped me a lot is, you know,I practice transcendental meditation,
but it was really hard oncethe baby came to continue that practice.
But something that I diddo, and it's not for everyone
and it's very woo-woo,but I did, hypnobirthing.
And of course it didn't go as planned.
My birth experience, like, you know,all this stuff, you know, but there was
(29:18):
something about me training my brainto kind of be in the moment, be present.
And the hypnosis part of ithelped so much throughout,
I would say, my postpartumjourney as well,
because I would listen back to those,you know, hypnosis and the hypno-like,
you know, songs and stuff like that.
(29:43):
And it kind ofjust put my soul kind of at ease,
like when I was feeling that stressand that anxiety.
So if you are, you know, currentlypregnant, I would look into it
because it was something that was reallyhelpful actually postpartum to me as well.
Like that helped out instead of like,you know, you can't go and do a yoga
class the second week you're,you know, giving birth, you know.
(30:05):
You know, you can't get right back.
If you're someonethat exercises all the time
and that's your way of kindof clearing your mind,
you can't go back and do that right away,especially if you have a C-section
or if you have, you know,I had a really bad birth experience with,
you know, hemorrhaging.
So, like,I couldn't go back for a very long time.
This was something to kind ofput my mind at ease without sitting there
(30:26):
and being like, you know, it wasa good way to kind of just clear my mind.
And I would really just recommend that.
That was just somethingI want to throw in.
No, I love that.
I actually, I found an appthat was about hypnobirthing as well.
And it was, it was like my versionof the Calm or the Headspace app.
Yeah, it just helps.
It was great. It was really great. And,and that's one of the things
(30:48):
I think I would have never, you know,it's not me to like, want to do that,
but I tried it and it was great.
I think for me,some of the myths and misconceptions,
I was really worried about medicationas being pregnant with medication.
And I spent a lot of anxious timeresearching, seeing specialists,
(31:13):
seeing what I could be onand not be on and weighing the risks.
And I think there's sometimes a flat,and I'm not speaking to all people,
but there's this assumptionthat you cannot be taking a single thing,
to be pregnant.
And or it's dangerous.
And of coursethere's risks for all things, as we learn
(31:34):
when we talk about eating sushi or,you know, all of those things,
but there are really great resources,really great doctors who specialize
in maternal mental health that you can seeand consult on your medications.
Massachusetts General Hospitalhas a center for women's mental health,
and they have pretty much every medicationand the latest research on it
(31:56):
related to pregnancy and postpartum.
So I just-- it was something I thought,oh, I'm going to have to change everything
in order to get and be pregnantand have a healthy pregnancy.
And that just didn't have to be the case.
Certain things had to change,but you also have to prioritize
your own mental health, too.
And that is a huge pieceof health as well.
(32:19):
So that was just somethingthat came up a lot for me.
And it was-- it was a big worry.
So I just yeah, I wanted to share.
I wanted to share that as well.
I mean, this has just been sucha great conversation.
Yeah. Thank you for sharing that.
That was-- that's such a goodmyth to share and encouragement,
I think, for people to really look into itand think you know,
talk to their physicians and the peopleinvolved in their birthing journeys and
(32:45):
make sure that they can stay healthybecause that is such a-- they as like
the birthing parent, mother, like,can stay healthy
because that is half,if not more of the puzzle, right?
Like you have to keep a parenthealthy.
Mental health is a huge part of that.
I think that goes to your pointabout asking parents how they're doing,
(33:09):
because so often we're focusedso much on new life
and which is so, obviously,makes total, total sense.
But somebody has to carefor that new life.
And they need to be healthy to do that.
So it's really importantto keep all of those perspectives.
I'm curious now that your kiddosare all birth-side
and pregnancy postpartumrearview mirror,
(33:36):
I'm just curious how becoming a parenthas shaped the way you care for
and manage your mental health now.
I think, you know, asI said in the beginning, it has changed
everything for me.
Medication has been life-saving.
And I think even if you havea, you know, medium
(33:59):
mental health condition,it can change your life.
Like,it doesn't have to be suicidal ideation.
I had a, an appointmentwith my psychiatrist early on.
She actually specializes in reproductivepsychiatry, which is incredible.
So I love talking to herand just getting her thoughts on,
you know, all kinds of thingslike perimenopause,
(34:19):
you know, just like things that are justcoming into the sort of frame,
the normal conversation now.
But I remember talking to herand she said there are two things,
'cause I was kind of like, I don't know.
Medication? Like, am I reallygoing to do this?
Like, am I really--is that the right fit for me?
Can't I just like, muscle through it?
(34:41):
And, you know what--some of what she said was like,
well, you're already seeing a therapist.
You're already exercising most days.
You're already, like, eating welland generally taking care of yourself
and trying to sleep as often as possible.
Like, she's like, it seems likeyou might need a little help.
You know, the other two thingsshe offered was, the first one was,
you have to thinkabout the dynamics of your family,
(35:03):
and it was not in a blame way.
So it was like,not in a, not in a way that was like,
it's your fault if your family's mess.
It was like a,you have to think about the way
you interact with your kidsand the way you interact with the world,
and what they will learn from thatand what they will learn from you.
And, you know, I mean, we'reall going to mess up our kids
(35:23):
in some way, so like,why not eliminate that one at least?
She didn't say that, I said that.
But the other piece was,she said, you have one life.
You have one life to live.
And so why spend it feeling badwhen you could try this
and potentially feel better?
(35:44):
And I sort of looked at herand I was like, well,
that was a convincing argument.
Like, I really-- and that was afterour second was born.
So that was really a year and a half,so 2023, somewhere 2023.
I've been here--I've been with NAMI for two years,
and I was all still sort of like, butis the medication route really the route?
You know, do I have-- do I need to?
And so, and that was, you know,like after my symptoms returned,
(36:06):
basically after that postpartum period.
And so even a year and a half outlike we talked about postpartum
period being two years,I think it's kind of like three or more.
You're never really, trulythe same after you give birth.
It's part of the reason I'm so passionateabout what NAMI does and having
these conversations, it has encouraged meto take care of my mental health.
(36:29):
I speak openly to my friendsabout being in therapy.
I really-- I encourageother people to seek help along,
especially other moms or birthingparents, like, it's just an important
part of the process.
You just have to ask for help.
Why sufferif you can get the help that you need?
(36:52):
You know?
Thank you, Kate.
It was so beautiful.
Thanks, I mean it very sincerely.
I think something that's changed for meis everything
with my mental healthin a really weird way.
I feel like my brainhas been completely reprogrammed.
And I'd be curious, Barb, with you,because we do have a similar diagnosis.
(37:14):
Yes. Bipolar one and twois very different, but it is similar.
I do wonder if you almost feelat some part like,
oh, I'm not-- It's not as bad as it was.
I don't know if that's just me,and I think it's because
my brain was completely rewiredto focus on this human
that I brought into the world, andI don't have time to sometimes be sitting
(37:42):
in the intrusive, like the obsessivethoughts that I used to.
My obsessive thoughts are nowmore about her life and like, oh God, is
she doing--you know, it's more about that.
Opposed to me spiraling as what I found,which I don't think is healthy either,
but I am, I'm working on it, you know.
This is a little bit different,but I think something
(38:02):
that's drastically changedabout my own mental health is being aware
of putting a word to the feelingsand like allowing her to understand
what that is.
I never felt shame with mental healthor with the diagnosis.
At a very young age, my mom, at five, hadme in hypnotherapy trying to figure out,
you know, why I had certain symptoms,not knowing it was bipolar disorder.
(38:24):
She was my biggest advocate.
But I think that it--we have language now for certain feelings,
for certain actions, me being someonewho lives with bipolar disorder, I can see
certain signs in younger childrenthat maybe we didn't know what it was.
So for me, I'm kind of very openwith my mental illness with my daughter.
(38:50):
Yes, she's two and a half,but we are talking about that
because I want her to know rightnow, mom needs to take a bath
and I need a moment because, I,otherwise I'm not going to be healthy and,
like, it's okay to take that momentfor yourself to do that, you know?
We try to teach her breathwork.
We have her meditate with usjust so she can regulate her emotions.
(39:12):
Because I don't know, Kate,if you were on here earlier,
but I was sharing with Barbhow my daughter discovered her
voice of sassand, like, stood up for herself,
and I'm like, oh, wow.
I don't have to worry about anyonedefending her honor.
She's doing it for herself.
But it's also being like,okay, I see this,
and I recognize thisbecause I was very similar.
(39:33):
And it's not sayingshe has this diagnosis,
but it's like, okay, I needed to teach youhow to regulate that emotion
so she doesn't fire back and, you know,feel, you know, hurt by that or what--
It's about teaching.
So I think that's what I've now focused onwith my mental health is,
oh, wow,I can teach this little, like, critter
(39:54):
like how to regulate themselvesand work on mental
health and maybe be the changefor that generation.
My focus has now been on her mental healthand seeing other kids and teaching,
maybe teaching parents, you know,if they're overwhelmed and they're like,
oh my God, my kid must have ADHD,they must have this.
And I'm like, no, they just needto be taught to regulate their emotions.
(40:16):
And then maybe they will have that later.
And maybe that is somethingthat they have to be on medication.
But let's try some other ways to helpput a name to a feeling.
I think putting names to feelingshelp kids understand, right?
They put a name to a color.
They put a name to a, you know, a letter.
Why can't we do that for the feelingsand the emotions and regulating that.
(40:40):
Yeah.
And I think similarly, too,like even talking about medication with
the kids, like I take-- I have asthma too.
So I have to take two different inhalersand take it like a daily allergy--
like all the things.
And so,and then I was taking my other medicines
and you know, my daughter was like,what's that one for?
And I said, oh, that's for my lungs.
And she's like, oh, what's thatlike inhaler for?
(41:00):
It's like, well, it's also for my lungs.
And she's like, what's that one for?
And I was like, well, that's for my brain.
And she was like, what do you mean?
I said, well, just kind of helpsmom's brain work a little bit better.
Like it helps me functiona little bit better.
So even talking about--It's destigmatizing it.
Yes. Yeah.
And so like giving that language to themto say like this is how I'm feeling or
(41:25):
helping them, like you said,with breathwork or we were just watching
an episode of Sesame Streetand Elmo was barely breathing.
And so we did some of that.
And so, you know,just like putting-- saying, you know, this
medicine helps my heartand this medicine helps my brain
and this-- you know, like, itjust, it's just part of your body.
It's something you take care of.
And so it's similar to that,like-- It's normalizing it.
(41:46):
It's not hiding the medication and like,oh my God they can't find this.
It's like, no,it is what it is. And mom needs this.
You know what I mean? And that's okay.
You may need it, but you may not. Right.
Exactly. Yeah. I love that.
It's beautiful.
You know, I'm so with both of you.
I, like--on this on this journey,I think
(42:07):
I learned that caring for my mental healthisn't like, a nice thing to do.
Like a luxury or like when I have time.
It's essential. Right?
And it's not just for me anymore.
It's also for my daughter.
I think, like you were saying,it models strength,
it models vulnerability,and it models self-respect and self-care.
(42:30):
So I think one of the hardest lessonsof motherhood
that I've learned livingwith a mental health condition
is that for me, that love alone doesn'tfill your cup.
You have to keep filling it yourself.
And I think that for me, meansasking for help,
(42:51):
admitting when you're struggling,and reminding yourself
that perfection is not the goal.
Presence is.
So we're there.
So no one should have to navigatethis journey alone, as we've talked about.
And I think the more that we all talkabout mental
health like we're doing today,the more we break down stigma
(43:14):
for ourselves, for the next generation,it all makes a difference.
So I just want to thank you bothso much for sharing your stories, friends,
and being here and talkingthrough all of this with me today.
Yeah. Thank you both so much. It's so,healing honestly, to be kind
of in this room with you bothand getting to talk about it
(43:37):
and hopefully helping some other,some other folks too.
And I got to tell you,you know, meeting other moms like you two,
just hearing your storiesmakes me go, okay, I'm not alone.
I'm not,you know, losing my mind over here.
Hearing about the,you know, postpartum OCD.
(43:58):
That is something I'm going to look intobecause I still feel that.
And I just thought like, oh,I'm just-- must be, you know, crazy.
You know, it's like just a symptomof bipolar disorder or something.
No, it's like an actual thing.
Maybe there's something that can help meget through that, you know?
And I think a lot of womenare doing this alone.
And I think that, you know,I want to clarify that
(44:20):
when I say to people,you know, find a support system,
it's not about finding like,you know, a lover or a partner
that's going to help you becausethose partners sometimes are not what,
you know, you need.
You need another momthat's been through the experience
or going through itwith you to really not feel alone.
You know, like I said,I had a whole family here
(44:42):
and it was not-- in this little roomthat I'm in
and I would just, like, cryI felt so alone.
So it's about finding connectionslike this, you know?
And if you could share that postpartumsupport group as well afterwards,
that would be great because I would loveto share that with people as well.
100%. And before weconclude officially,
(45:03):
I want to ask the questionthat we always ask
every podcast guest on our showand that is,
the world can be a difficult place, right?
And sometimes it can be hardto hold on to hope.
That's why on each episodewe dedicate the last couple of minutes
here, to a special segment calledHold on to Hope.
(45:26):
So, I'll start with Alessandraand move on to Kate.
Can each of you tell us what helpsyou hold on to help?
Oh, gosh, I'm so emotional now.
I feel like what makes me hold on to hoperight now, it's my daughter
and her little friends.
These brains are so fun to watch,and they're so exciting to see
(45:47):
and grow and learn.
And every day it's a new experience.
And when I see, you know,she takes a deep breath
and when she's feeling upsetand that calming thing like that
heart to heart connection,like when I hold her, I'm like, oh, wow.
Like the I have hope in the worldand I have hope in humanity,
(46:07):
I think when I see that.
And I have hope that I'm doing anokay job as a mom
because I see how empatheticshe'll, you know, if there's a kid crying,
she goes up, it's okay.
Like it's okay.
And I'm like, oh my God, she's two. Like,how does she know that?
You know?
And maybe that's just like the aliensthat made or something, like,
made her like that, but I like tothink, you know, it's because
(46:31):
I'm an empathetic person andshe's seeing that and she's copying that.
And so I have hope thatthat we can heal each other.
That's such a good one.
I love that, the ideaof healing each other and
parenthood is wild like that.
Isn't it?
You really-- there'sso much healing that happens by
watching this little human growoutside of you.
(46:53):
It's like the most--one of the most trippy parts of
parenthood,I think, is sort of watching that happen.
The thing that gives me hopein addition to,
you know, Gen Z and our kids,which I guess are Gen Alpha, maybe.
I--what are they? I don't know.
(47:16):
And you know, GenZ being so open and really, you know,
demanding the conversation to happen,like, even in their workplaces and,
getting to talk to some of our partnersabout that, like, well,
our younger employees are sayingwe have to make sure that,
you know, insurance plan coversmental health care and stuff like that.
It's kind of amazing.
But again, I mean, one of the reasonsthat NAMI's work is so important to me
(47:39):
is because I think it is what sometimes,you know, in-- on dark days
or in dark moments, like,it is what I have come
to really cling to in terms ofseeing people
really out there doing the work.
Like NAMI has been around for 46 years.
The organization has seen a lot happenand weathered a lot of storms.
(48:04):
And I think that seeing,you know, people like our advocates
even like,you know, volunteers putting forth
all of these, all their voicesto, you know, push
for Medicaid coverage and,really just
seeing our team come togetherand having so many people so willing to.
(48:24):
And both of you really likeseeing both of you be so willing
to talk about your mental healthand share your stories.
And, you know, knowing thatthere are people out there doing this and
doing hard stuff,through sharing their stories
and working through their stuffand figuring it out,
I think is really, really helpful.
I love that.
Thank you so much. Yeah. Thank you.
(48:47):
So this has been Hope Starts With Us,a podcast by NAMI,
the National Alliance on Mental Illness.
If you're a new or expectant parentlooking for resources
about mental health, visitnami.org/NewParents.
You'll find information about mentalhealth before, during, and after pregnancy
with practical advice and guidance frompeople like us who've gone through it.
(49:11):
If you are looking for mental healthresources, you are not alone.
To connect with the NAMI HelpLineand find local resources,
visit nami.org/help.
Text "helpline" to 62640or dial 1-800-950-NAMI (6264). Or
(49:32):
if you're experiencingan immediate suicide, substance
use or mental health crisis,please call or text 988
to speak with a trained supportspecialist or visit 908lifeline.org.
It has been such a pleasureto be your host today.
Thanks for listening and be well.
I think that that's why maternal mentalhealth has become so important to me
even more so than regular mental health,even though I live with the mental illness
because it's somethingthat's not talked about as candidly.
Because as moms, we are so fearfulthat we are going to lose
the one thing that we've worked so hardto be able to protect and keep safe.
But I want to change that stigma,and I want to say, hey, it's okay
(00:23):
to vocalize it.
They're not going to take your baby awaylike we're just here to help, and let's
all figure out the safest and best wayto make you the best version of yourself.
Welcome to Help Starts With Us,a podcast by NAMI,
the National Alliance on Mental Illness.
I'm your guest host, Barb Solish, NAMI'sDirector of Innovation
joining Hope Starts With Us todayto discuss a topic I care deeply
(00:45):
about with two women who I admire,and I'm so excited to chat with.
NAMI started this podcast becausewe believe that hope starts with us.
Hope starts with ustalking about mental health.
Hope starts with us making informationaccessible.
Hope starts with usproviding resources and practical advice.
Hope starts with us sharing our stories.
(01:06):
Hope starts with us breaking the stigma.
If you or a loved one is strugglingwith a mental health condition
and have been looking for hope,we made this podcast for you.
Hope starts with all of us.
Hope is a collective, so we hope that eachepisode, with each conversation
brings you into that collectiveso you know you are not alone.
Hi everyone, I'm Barb Solish,your guest host today.
(01:29):
Just to introduce myself a little,like so many people
who come to NAMI,I live with mental health conditions.
My symptomsstarted early in my teen years,
but I didn't get treatmentuntil my college age time.
So it turns out that I'm a statistic.
11 years is the average delay betweenthe onset of symptoms and treatment.
(01:51):
So I'm at NAMIbecause I want to change that.
I'm also here because I lost a dear friendto suicide in 2017.
His family turned to NAMIin their darkest hour,
and they found supportand hope when they need it the most.
So it's an honor to work here,and it's an honor to host today's episode
on a topic that means so much to meprofessionally, but also as a mom.
(02:15):
May is Maternal Mental HealthAwareness Month, and we're shining a light
on the experiences of momsliving with mental health conditions,
whether they've been managing themfor years or only since pregnancy.
So let me share a quicksnapshot of maternal mental health.
Maternal mental health refers to mentalwell-being during the perinatal period,
(02:36):
which means during pregnancyand up to about two years after birth.
Every year, 500,000 pregnant womenin the US experience
a mental health condition, but75% of them don't get the mental health
treatment they deserve.
So there's a lot to discuss on this topic.
I am thrilled that I'm joined todayby two incredible guests: Kate
(02:58):
Kennedy-Lynch, NAMI'sDirector of External Relations,
and AlessandraTorresani, a NAMI ambassador.
Kate, Alessandra, can you kick us offby introducing yourselves and
sharing a little bit about how you foundNAMI and your mental health journeys?
So as Barb said, I'm Kate Kennedy-Lynch,I'm the Director of External Relations
for NAMI National, which means that I havethe immense pleasure of working
(03:18):
with our incredible corporate partnersand funders to ensure that the work
NAMI does continues to happen.
I actually started my careerin event production,
so I had a little bit of a careerjourney straight out of college.
I was in the sales.
I was kind of a sales associate at acatering company down here outside of DC.
(03:41):
And then, after that moved upto New York City and was working for
an incredible agency thereproducing events of all shapes and sizes.
And then in 2019, had our daughter,which is very exciting.
And as soon as shewas born, I felt terrible.
(04:02):
And so I,you know, I would talk to other friends
who had babies around the same time.
They'd say like, oh, I feel pretty good.
I'd say, I have no idea what that means.
Like, I just have no idea.
And so finally, there was a, you know,some email from some list that said,
if you feel baby blues for a few days,it's one thing.
If you're feeling symptomsfor two weeks or more,
(04:24):
you should probably see some help.
So I took that as my sign.
And that was about six weeks.
So I, you know, told my ob-gynwhen I went in for my singular,
you know, postpartum check in andshe recommended
some therapists and things.
And of course, thatlist was mixed in terms of
(04:46):
people being available onthat list and practices
having closed and things.
And so finally then I asked thefacilitator,
I guess, of our new parent support groupthat I went to at a yoga studio
in Brooklyn.
I'm still friends with a lot of those momsactually, which is very nice.
But she recommended some folks.
(05:07):
And so I reached out and I explainedsome of my symptoms to this therapist.
And I'm happyto talk about my symptoms, too.
Just as a content note.
I'm happy to share them.
So if you want to fast forward,you certainly can. But,
the story that I told herthat sort of led to the diagnosis was that
I was having some suicidal ideation,which is why I flagged this for my mom and
(05:29):
my doctor.
But then the storythat I told my therapist one time
is that my daughter was-- this was--so this was much later, actually.
She was 7 or 8 months,like she was sitting up.
I remember we were sitting on the groundat the playground.
She picked up a piece of bark, likefrom the playground and popped it in
her mouth, as babies do.
And, I,you know, we fished it out of her mouth
(05:49):
right away, no problem.
But I sat there and just stared at herand thought like, what if I hadn't?
What if there'sstill a piece in her throat?
What if there's still somethingthat's going to get stuck there
and it's going to ruin her life? Like,what do we do?
Do I stick my finger back in thereand be sure we got everything?
Like I'ma terrible--I can't believe I did that.
I can't believeI let her put that in her mouth.
(06:12):
And so I told her that and she said,you know what I think you have,
she said, beyond postpartumdepression or postpartum anxiety,
she said, I think you have postpartum OCD.
And I said, what?
What is that?
I had no idea. I'd never heard of it.
You know,in 2019, it feels like the postpartum
anxiety conversation was just starting.
(06:33):
And so that was when I sort of was like,oh, there's this sort of spiraling
thoughts aspect to this.
And what are my compulsions?
Like, I kind of didn'tI don't know what my compulsions,
you know, I was like, oh, I'm--I wash the bottle parts all the time.
And I, you know, those kinds of things.
But the obsessive thinkingwas actually sort
of the outstanding piece of my journey.
(06:55):
So then I had my son and, you know,I continued therapy.
I had my son in 2022 afterI had come to NAMI in 2021
and felt really goodafter his birth, I finally felt I was--
I remember saying to my mom, I'm like,this is what people talk about
whenever they feel good after birth.
And then slowlybut surely, you know, about a year later,
(07:17):
as I was weaning breastfeeding,all my symptoms came rushing back.
And having the opportunityto be at NAMI, I talked to colleagues far
and wide who shared their storiesand talked about SSRIs or antidepressants.
We talked about psychotics.
We talked about their journey with,you know, we were talking about long
(07:40):
acting injectableswith some of our partners.
Like, really, it, for me,changed my perception of medication.
And so that was when I sought treatmentwith a psychiatrist,
restarted my therapy journey,and finally feel like things are,
you know, in a pretty good place, so--Can I ask a follow up question
(08:00):
before I go?
Of course. I just.
I feel like I'm in the middleof a therapy session
right now where I'm feeling thislike aha moment where I've, I've heard
of the postpartum OCD,but it's something
that was never brought up to me, I guess.
(08:21):
I, you know,I guess I'll get into my story, but
I alwaysfelt mine was just postpartum anxiety.
But when you just said the compulsivethoughts and all that and like,
that is exactly what I had.
And like, I never heard that.
It makes so much sensebecause I am someone who suffers
(08:42):
OCD and I have my whole life,and it's funny, it's always helped me
in the benefits of my mathematics in classwhere I was a number OCD person, where,
you know, I always had to add thingsto become one number.
Or if I see a license plate,I have to remember that number.
Those are the kind of compulsions.
It's less the typical OCD people thinkthat's like, oh, you're
(09:05):
just a clean freak,or you're like, washing your hands
all the time, like,mine is definitely mathematical.
But I was having such obsessivethoughts over and over every single day
that certain things would trigger.
And so hearingyou say that, I'm kind of like,
oh my God, like,I need to go talk to somebody
because that's exactly what I'm goingthrough, still, like.
(09:28):
Yeah, it's wild, isn't it?
I had a colleagueactually come forward too after,
I think I shared my story somewherewithin the organization,
and she said, I have that too,and I thought I was the only person.
And I said, me too.
I mean, I was the only one that I knewwho had that diagnosis,
but it's, you know, it'son the international OCD Foundation
website as a,you know, it's a subset of OCD
like it's a real--it's a real thing.
(09:52):
It's a real thing.
Wow. Well, Kate,that was so beautiful. Wow.
Thank you for sharing that.
Yeah.
Thank you so much.
And I remember you talking to me actuallyshortly after starting medication.
And I remember you saying,you know, I've lived with this
for so long and all of a sudden for you,the voices of those compulsions
and those intrusive thoughts quieted.
(10:16):
And how that was just so different.
And, but you being open about that to mewas special, too.
Like, just having these conversationsmakes a really big difference.
Yeah, it really does. It really does.
So Alessandra,tell us a little bit about your story.
Oh my gosh.
I have so much that I want to share,but I'll do it in a very like pint-sized
version.
(10:39):
I'm an actressand I, you know, I'm
very in touch with my emotions.
I always have been my entire life.
I feel like I was born to do this.
But for me, I was showingsigns of what I did not know
was bipolar one disorderfrom a very, very, very young age,
starting at about three yearsold, maybe even a little bit before,
(11:01):
but I was not formally diagnoseduntil I was about 21 years old
after having a severepanic attack on a set
and actually being diagnosed,or not being diagnosed,
but being introduced to the conceptof bipolar disorder from an acupuncturist
who actually workedwith a lot of creative types.
(11:24):
And I was explaining my symptomsand all the things, and he said,
I really think that you needto talk to a professional
and bring up bipolar disorder.
This sounds maybe possiblythis is what it could be.
This was after, Barb, we were talkinghow it takes 11 years for a diagnosis.
This is after years of mebeing put on antidepressants,
and that made my highs higherand my lows lower and gave me
(11:46):
suicidal ideationsthat I never had before.
You know, the misdiagnosis is so--that's a whole other episode
and a whole other storywhere that it's so tricky, right?
And still,here we are, someone who's-- Right?
I'm an ambassador.
I believe in therapy.
I believe in medication.
I'm like, wait a second, Kate,I feel like that's what I have.
(12:07):
And I never heard that before.
It's always a new discovery.
So when I chose to start having--trying to have a baby,
I actually got off my medicationslowly, slowly, slowly.
It was a very long processwith lots of doctors
and lots of professionals aroundme guiding me through,
making sure I was okay.
(12:28):
And, well, there--the second trimester
was very tough for me,which is apparently supposed to be the
happiest trimester, for me, it was not.
And so hearing that stigma over and over,I felt like,
oh, something's wrong with me.
Like I should be happy.
Why am I feeling the worst I've ever felt?
Why do I not want to continue on?
(12:48):
I had my baby and she's here now and she'salmost three and she's wonderful.
Her name is Lady.
But something that I was not expecting,even though I host a mental health podcast
and I had all the maternal mental healthspecialists on,
I was not expecting to get postpartumanxiety.
I was not expecting to have severe,graphic, intrusive thoughts all the time.
(13:15):
You know, I wasn't expecting any of this.
And so even though I was preparedfrom hearing all these stories
and all this,I didn't know what to experience
because I hadn't experienced it yet.
And I felt scared to talk about,even through my pregnancy,
I felt scared to talk aboutif I was having suicidal ideations,
(13:37):
if I was having these severeintrusive thoughts.
Very scary, graphic things,because I was like, oh, they're going
to take my baby away from me.
So I don't want to say anything, you know?
And I was very lucky to have had createdso many resources through NAMI,
through my own podcast,through just friends and family
and having that support system around me.
(14:00):
But it's a very scary, lonely time.
And I don't know if you girls wentthrough this, but I had such a support
system and I felt lonelier than I ever hadin my entire life.
Which was crazy, right?
Like why? You know?
But now to look back at it.
But I find that it was a blessingthat I experienced what I did in a way,
(14:21):
because now I feel finally at a partin my-- of my journey,
almost three years postpartum,where I can talk to other moms
who may be going through it.
And, you know, Kate, I'm so happythat you shared what you did because now
I'm like, oh, that's what that was.
Okay, now I can identify that.
(14:42):
Now I can go and work on that issuethat still is inside me.
But just on a side note,I think a lot of women have wonderful
first pregnanciesand they think, oh, this is amazing.
And they have--the postpartum experience is wonderful.
And then it's almost the second timearound that sometimes it could be really
triggering or something comes upor you get the postpartum anxiety
and you didn't have it the first time,so you think something's severely wrong.
(15:05):
And I actually have been, you know,speaking with a few people in my life
who are on that second journey, you know,through pregnancy and postpartum.
And they didn't experience itthe first time.
And so I'm so lucky that I havethese resources and I can be like,
you know what?
I these you listen to this podcast,I think this is going to help you
or I think you should reach outto this organization.
There's a great, you know, mom groupor mom circle that you can join.
(15:29):
I think that that'swhy maternal mental health
has become so important to me, even moreso than regular,
you know, mental health,even though I live with the mental illness
because it's somethingthat's not talked about as candidly,
because as moms, we are so fearfulthat we are going to lose
the one thing that we've worked so hardto be able to protect and keep safe,
(15:49):
you know, but I want to change thatstigma, and I want to say, hey, it's
okay to vocalize it.
They're not going to take your baby away.
Like, we're just here to help.
And let's all figure out the safestand best way to make you
the best version of yourself.
That was a really long winded answer.
I'm sorry.
No, it's so helpful. It was so helpful.
(16:11):
And you know, I can relate to you a lot.
One, because I have both bipolartype two and going into pregnancy,
it was sochallenging to talk about medication
and to figure out what I needed to doand what was risky, what was not risky,
and this whole range of things.
But there was actually an element for meof feeling like it was a hidden strength
(16:32):
in that I knew what to look for,for mental health conditions, right?
Even though, you know,you may not feel like you can act on them.
You know, maybe you're not goingto get the-- ask for the support.
But at least you know whatsigns and symptoms
those are for your mental health conditionthat you currently have, right?
I can chime in on that.
Yeah, I had the opposite experience.
(16:54):
You know, supposedly, you know,in talking to therapists and psychiatrists
and stuff over the years, like, I guessI probably lived with an element of OCD
before this happened, right?
Like it's alwaysbeen there to some degree,
but I had no idea what to look for.
And I had, you know, the thingsthat I was experiencing were so different
than the things on the Instagram carouselsabout postpartum depression,
(17:15):
and it just didn't look like anythingthat anybody was experiencing.
And then, Alessandra,to your point, which, thank you
for sharing your incredible story,I felt like I was sitting there, you know,
I was living in New York City,I have an incredible partner
and this, like, beautiful baby.
And it's like,why do I feel so-- you know, I have a job.
And yeah, everything was, everythingwas, you know, on the surface, very,
(17:39):
you know, right.
Like everything should have,should have come out a certain way.
And that feeling of--and I think it's a mom feeling
like I should be able to do it alland I shouldn't feel terrible.
And I have all the resources in the world,but still feel so--
you know, it's really it'san interesting thing to experience,
(17:59):
sort of for the first time on the,on the back end of pregnancy too.
So it's,so interesting to hear your all stories
kind of heading into pregnancy that way.
And then mineis like coming out of pregnancy.
So it really-- it'ssuch an all encompassing conversation.
So let me ask you then, both of you,what you wish,
both respectively, would have known.
So whether having a mental healthcondition or not,
(18:24):
wish someone would have said upfront, hey,FYI, this.
What could have been helpful to you?
I don't know,because that's like my honest answer.
Because I'll say thissomeone had recently reached out
and was like, hey, you know,what are your top
maternal mental healthepisodes of your podcast?
Can you send them to me?
And I was like looking back at them.
(18:45):
And I was like, oh my God, I can't believeI had one of the heads of Cedars-Sinai.
It's a huge hospitalhere. It's where I gave birth.
She was one of the heads of the,you know, postpartum
area, you know, of-- my mom brain, right?
It's a real thing.
You know, one of the areas.
And anyways,I had this specialist on and like,
I didn't listen to anything she said.
(19:07):
Like, I didn't digest anything, right?
I listened, I edited the podcast.
I was the one that put it out.
I was the one that did the social media.
But like, I guess I didn't absorb itin the way that I wanted to
because there were so many like,incredible resources and things
that she had given in that episodethat I was just like at a loss.
And I think when, you know,you're just so drained after birth
(19:32):
that it's like so hard for youto think about anything else
because you literally switch,especially the first six weeks of like,
you go into survival mode, you know,and you're like, I have to survive
and I have to keep this baby alive.
And I remember I wouldn'teven let my husband push the buggy
because I was like,oh my gosh, the buggy is going to let go.
(19:52):
It's going to go down the streetlike it's going to like fall and crash
and like that's--and I mean, that was going through
the first like, you know, six weeks.
And then it continued with the intrusive,obsessive thoughts, you know.
So I mean,I guess the thing that I wish I knew
is, I wish I knew earlier other momsthat maybe were going through immediately
(20:12):
what I was going throughbecause hearing it from someone
who's experienced it, that was great.
But the moment I felt heardand the moment I felt like a safe space,
if you will, was when I started a mommusic class and it was like,
I think a Lady was like 11weeks old and I was like a crazy person
(20:34):
hosting sitting at my house.
I was like, I don't care.
Like, I just need these momsbecause it was the
actual physical connection of just knowingsomeone else is experiencing
something at the same time as you,and to know you're not alone.
Like I think that that'swhat I wish I had.
It's not what I wish I knew.
I wish I had that a little bit earliergoing through it.
(20:57):
Yeah. I love that. I love that.
My mother-in-law actually told me,hey, sign up for a support group now.
And that was like when I was six monthspregnant.
Sign up now.
And it wasn't a specific--it was just moms getting together
and it made such a big difference.
We met like three weeksafter I'd given birth.
So right away, really.
(21:17):
And you start that communityand it makes a really big difference.
And I'll make a quick plugfor our partner, our friends at Postpartum
Support International.
They have amazing support groups,free support groups online for all sorts
of postpartum conditions,for pregnancy loss and so much more.
So I'm just-- Oh, I love that.
Oh they're fantastic. Yeah.
And I actually--Imean, I'm in the same, in a similar boat.
(21:40):
I think that was one of the things too,that, I don't know if anybody told me that
or if it was something thatwe just kind of found at our yoga studio,
the new parent support group.
But it is the one thingthat I always pass along, too.
I mean, if you do one thing,get yourself some people around you
who have experienced or are experiencingthe same thing, like you said, Alessandra,
at the same time,I think I'm similar to you, actually.
(22:01):
I don't know thatthere's anything that I--
you know, it would have been nice to knowabout postpartum
OCD, like, would have been nice to knowthat that existed.
But, you know,this is the first time that I'm speaking
in sort of a public way about it,but I, I speak pretty widely,
even asprivately about my experience,
because I just feel likeif I had known somebody,
(22:22):
if I had seen somebody who was goingthrough it or talked about it or said,
you know, I'm thinking about medicationor oh, yeah,
I'm going to take medication, like,whatever.
It's no big deal.
You know, I think that that would havemaybe would have changed
my own perception of myselfmore than anything else,
that it'sthe thing that people experience and,
(22:44):
you know, shows up fairly commonly.
And, so I think I'm actually the same.
I think that it, it's part of the reasonthat I share my story so much
is because I really needed that.
And I think it's such an important pieceof postpartum journey.
Thank you, Kate.
Thanks so much for sharing,too, both of you.
I mean, this is like, it's a big deal.
(23:04):
It's a big deal to share your story, andit makes a huge impact as you were saying.
I think with you both,I feel like I'm in such a--
this is like my two best friends.
Like, because we've all experienced it.
Yeah, we've been through it!That's why I'm so strong and community.
And I feel like honestly, the moms that I,you know, started this music class with.
(23:24):
I'm still so close with them years laterbecause, you know,
some of them are on to their secondand some are on their third babies
already, you know, and it's just likebeing able to know
that we went through it togetherand like the tough times and you know, oh,
you know, is your baby doing this?
Like, are they hitting this milestone?
And it was lessabout like a competitive edge.
(23:45):
It was more of just like, hey, you know,I'm really going through a tough time.
Can someone help me out here, like--or what do you recommend?
Or, you know, we had a friend in our groupwhose father, you know,
got very sick with cancer and passed awayduring that experience.
And, you know, she really just countedon all the moms to kind of get together
and just do like a circle of,you know, good energy.
(24:08):
And so I feel like that'swhy it's so important.
It's less about like, being like friends,like, so your babies have friends.
It's not about that. It's about you.
I'll say one more thing that I wishthat people would have said to me.
I wish that people would haveput more postpartum care
on my baby shower,and like your baby registry,
like there's this amazing companycalled Anya, and they're a postpartum,
(24:31):
like, supplements. They have tonics.
It's all about, like,you know, helping with your breast milk.
It's a very, like, it'san amazing company. It's fabulous.
But I wish, like, that was on my birthing,you know, a whole thing.
Like, for everything.
Like it was like I didn't need a babyonesie, you know what I mean?
Like, that was nice, but it was like,I don't think we care about the
(24:51):
mom going through that.
And it's of no--anyone's fault.
It's just,I think that maybe if you are a mom,
be more sensitive to thatand make sure the moms okay.
Like, bring them soup, you know,I mean just the postpartum care of like,
community and family.
Like we forget tribes,you know what I mean?
It was likewe used to have, like, these huge,
(25:14):
like, families that would take care of oneanother for weeks on end.
And you didn't have to worry about that.
We don't have that anymore.
And so if you could be that familyand that tribe for your friend, like,
I think you could do, that.
Community is so important-- so,so important with family.
And I will say there's pluses and minuses.
I'm thinkingbecause, there's no shortage of advice
(25:36):
when you're pregnant,I feel like from your community.
You know, like don't eat sushi,don't take hot baths,
don't sneeze too hard.
But not a lot about mental health.
That feels a little murkier.
I did not get a lot of information goingthrough pregnancy about my mental health.
I had my own information working at NAMIand my own experience, but I'm curious
(25:59):
if you all have any thoughts on like,misconceptions or myths
you've heard about pregnancyand or motherhood and mental health?
Anything that you feel likethat should maybe be cleared up.
I mean, I feel like everyone told methe second trimester was like the best.
And so that was likethe biggest myth or misconception I had.
(26:21):
You know, it's like everyone's like,oh, once you get the first trimester,
once you get through it, like, it'sso beautiful,
and then you, like, the third trimester,it gets tough again.
And so for me,I felt like truly an insane person
that needed to be in, like,a hospital, you know,
because I was so mentally illand so sick at that point.
And I just felt likethe world was caving in on me.
(26:44):
And I didn't understandhearing other people say that
this should be the most joyous time.
And I think when you're told somethingand you're feeling
the complete opposite, you're like,something's wrong.
Like, I'm sick, I'm sick.
But then I was afraid to admitthat I was sick because I had done so
well on not being on the medicationand taking almost a year to,
(27:07):
you know, conceive so we could not be onthe medication, you know,
and so I think that that was really,really tough.
And, and I would say that, yeah, I thinkthat everyone's experience is different.
And so never say, oh,once you get through this moment
you'll be fine because you don't knowif someone's going to be fine.
That's great advice.
Yeah, that is great advice.
(27:28):
I don't know if it's a myth so much, but,and you know,
maybe it's a little bit back to our lastpart of our last conversation too.
But I feel like it wouldbe amazing to have a little bit
more postpartummental health care
built into the postpartum period.
Or more opportunitiesfor check-ins
(27:49):
or just the normalization of, Alessandra,like you were saying, like everybody's
experience being so different.
And so in the postpartum period,I think it would be amazing
if we're able to ensurethat somebody in a woman's circle,
whether it's a clinician or part of the,you know, continuum of care
or whatever it is, or if it's just likesomebody in their lives
(28:12):
is not saying like, don't eat this.
This isn't how you swaddle a baby.
Don't-- you know, like somebody saying,hey, how are you doing?
How are you holding it up?
And not just in a, like, oh,you know, not sleeping, but really in a--
but like, is that okay?
(28:32):
Are you okay, though?
You know,I think that's kind of the--like,
if you, you listeners, dear listeners,if you can be that person in somebody's
life and just be there to listen to themand support them
and--I think that would be the nicest.
Something that I experienced thatI just thought of that really actually
(28:54):
helped me a lot is, you know,I practice transcendental meditation,
but it was really hard oncethe baby came to continue that practice.
But something that I diddo, and it's not for everyone
and it's very woo-woo,but I did, hypnobirthing.
And of course it didn't go as planned.
My birth experience, like, you know,all this stuff, you know, but there was
(29:18):
something about me training my brainto kind of be in the moment, be present.
And the hypnosis part of ithelped so much throughout,
I would say, my postpartumjourney as well,
because I would listen back to those,you know, hypnosis and the hypno-like,
you know, songs and stuff like that.
(29:43):
And it kind ofjust put my soul kind of at ease,
like when I was feeling that stressand that anxiety.
So if you are, you know, currentlypregnant, I would look into it
because it was something that was reallyhelpful actually postpartum to me as well.
Like that helped out instead of like,you know, you can't go and do a yoga
class the second week you're,you know, giving birth, you know.
(30:05):
You know, you can't get right back.
If you're someonethat exercises all the time
and that's your way of kindof clearing your mind,
you can't go back and do that right away,especially if you have a C-section
or if you have, you know,I had a really bad birth experience with,
you know, hemorrhaging.
So, like,I couldn't go back for a very long time.
This was something to kind ofput my mind at ease without sitting there
(30:26):
and being like, you know, it wasa good way to kind of just clear my mind.
And I would really just recommend that.
That was just somethingI want to throw in.
No, I love that.
I actually, I found an appthat was about hypnobirthing as well.
And it was, it was like my versionof the Calm or the Headspace app.
Yeah, it just helps.
It was great. It was really great. And,and that's one of the things
(30:48):
I think I would have never, you know,it's not me to like, want to do that,
but I tried it and it was great.
I think for me,some of the myths and misconceptions,
I was really worried about medicationas being pregnant with medication.
And I spent a lot of anxious timeresearching, seeing specialists,
(31:13):
seeing what I could be onand not be on and weighing the risks.
And I think there's sometimes a flat,and I'm not speaking to all people,
but there's this assumptionthat you cannot be taking a single thing,
to be pregnant.
And or it's dangerous.
And of coursethere's risks for all things, as we learn
(31:34):
when we talk about eating sushi or,you know, all of those things,
but there are really great resources,really great doctors who specialize
in maternal mental health that you can seeand consult on your medications.
Massachusetts General Hospitalhas a center for women's mental health,
and they have pretty much every medicationand the latest research on it
(31:56):
related to pregnancy and postpartum.
So I just-- it was something I thought,oh, I'm going to have to change everything
in order to get and be pregnantand have a healthy pregnancy.
And that just didn't have to be the case.
Certain things had to change,but you also have to prioritize
your own mental health, too.
And that is a huge pieceof health as well.
(32:19):
So that was just somethingthat came up a lot for me.
And it was-- it was a big worry.
So I just yeah, I wanted to share.
I wanted to share that as well.
I mean, this has just been sucha great conversation.
Yeah. Thank you for sharing that.
That was-- that's such a goodmyth to share and encouragement,
I think, for people to really look into itand think you know,
talk to their physicians and the peopleinvolved in their birthing journeys and
(32:45):
make sure that they can stay healthybecause that is such a-- they as like
the birthing parent, mother, like,can stay healthy
because that is half,if not more of the puzzle, right?
Like you have to keep a parenthealthy.
Mental health is a huge part of that.
I think that goes to your pointabout asking parents how they're doing,
(33:09):
because so often we're focusedso much on new life
and which is so, obviously,makes total, total sense.
But somebody has to carefor that new life.
And they need to be healthy to do that.
So it's really importantto keep all of those perspectives.
I'm curious now that your kiddosare all birth-side
and pregnancy postpartumrearview mirror,
(33:36):
I'm just curious how becoming a parenthas shaped the way you care for
and manage your mental health now.
I think, you know, asI said in the beginning, it has changed
everything for me.
Medication has been life-saving.
And I think even if you havea, you know, medium
(33:59):
mental health condition,it can change your life.
Like,it doesn't have to be suicidal ideation.
I had a, an appointmentwith my psychiatrist early on.
She actually specializes in reproductivepsychiatry, which is incredible.
So I love talking to herand just getting her thoughts on,
you know, all kinds of thingslike perimenopause,
(34:19):
you know, just like things that are justcoming into the sort of frame,
the normal conversation now.
But I remember talking to herand she said there are two things,
'cause I was kind of like, I don't know.
Medication? Like, am I reallygoing to do this?
Like, am I really--is that the right fit for me?
Can't I just like, muscle through it?
(34:41):
And, you know what--some of what she said was like,
well, you're already seeing a therapist.
You're already exercising most days.
You're already, like, eating welland generally taking care of yourself
and trying to sleep as often as possible.
Like, she's like, it seems likeyou might need a little help.
You know, the other two thingsshe offered was, the first one was,
you have to thinkabout the dynamics of your family,
(35:03):
and it was not in a blame way.
So it was like,not in a, not in a way that was like,
it's your fault if your family's mess.
It was like a,you have to think about the way
you interact with your kidsand the way you interact with the world,
and what they will learn from thatand what they will learn from you.
And, you know, I mean, we'reall going to mess up our kids
(35:23):
in some way, so like,why not eliminate that one at least?
She didn't say that, I said that.
But the other piece was,she said, you have one life.
You have one life to live.
And so why spend it feeling badwhen you could try this
and potentially feel better?
(35:44):
And I sort of looked at herand I was like, well,
that was a convincing argument.
Like, I really-- and that was afterour second was born.
So that was really a year and a half,so 2023, somewhere 2023.
I've been here--I've been with NAMI for two years,
and I was all still sort of like, butis the medication route really the route?
You know, do I have-- do I need to?
And so, and that was, you know,like after my symptoms returned,
(36:06):
basically after that postpartum period.
And so even a year and a half outlike we talked about postpartum
period being two years,I think it's kind of like three or more.
You're never really, trulythe same after you give birth.
It's part of the reason I'm so passionateabout what NAMI does and having
these conversations, it has encouraged meto take care of my mental health.
(36:29):
I speak openly to my friendsabout being in therapy.
I really-- I encourageother people to seek help along,
especially other moms or birthingparents, like, it's just an important
part of the process.
You just have to ask for help.
Why sufferif you can get the help that you need?
(36:52):
You know?
Thank you, Kate.
It was so beautiful.
Thanks, I mean it very sincerely.
I think something that's changed for meis everything
with my mental healthin a really weird way.
I feel like my brainhas been completely reprogrammed.
And I'd be curious, Barb, with you,because we do have a similar diagnosis.
(37:14):
Yes. Bipolar one and twois very different, but it is similar.
I do wonder if you almost feelat some part like,
oh, I'm not-- It's not as bad as it was.
I don't know if that's just me,and I think it's because
my brain was completely rewiredto focus on this human
that I brought into the world, andI don't have time to sometimes be sitting
(37:42):
in the intrusive, like the obsessivethoughts that I used to.
My obsessive thoughts are nowmore about her life and like, oh God, is
she doing--you know, it's more about that.
Opposed to me spiraling as what I found,which I don't think is healthy either,
but I am, I'm working on it, you know.
This is a little bit different,but I think something
(38:02):
that's drastically changedabout my own mental health is being aware
of putting a word to the feelingsand like allowing her to understand
what that is.
I never felt shame with mental healthor with the diagnosis.
At a very young age, my mom, at five, hadme in hypnotherapy trying to figure out,
you know, why I had certain symptoms,not knowing it was bipolar disorder.
(38:24):
She was my biggest advocate.
But I think that it--we have language now for certain feelings,
for certain actions, me being someonewho lives with bipolar disorder, I can see
certain signs in younger childrenthat maybe we didn't know what it was.
So for me, I'm kind of very openwith my mental illness with my daughter.
(38:50):
Yes, she's two and a half,but we are talking about that
because I want her to know rightnow, mom needs to take a bath
and I need a moment because, I,otherwise I'm not going to be healthy and,
like, it's okay to take that momentfor yourself to do that, you know?
We try to teach her breathwork.
We have her meditate with usjust so she can regulate her emotions.
(39:12):
Because I don't know, Kate,if you were on here earlier,
but I was sharing with Barbhow my daughter discovered her
voice of sassand, like, stood up for herself,
and I'm like, oh, wow.
I don't have to worry about anyonedefending her honor.
She's doing it for herself.
But it's also being like,okay, I see this,
and I recognize thisbecause I was very similar.
(39:33):
And it's not sayingshe has this diagnosis,
but it's like, okay, I needed to teach youhow to regulate that emotion
so she doesn't fire back and, you know,feel, you know, hurt by that or what--
It's about teaching.
So I think that's what I've now focused onwith my mental health is,
oh, wow,I can teach this little, like, critter
(39:54):
like how to regulate themselvesand work on mental
health and maybe be the changefor that generation.
My focus has now been on her mental healthand seeing other kids and teaching,
maybe teaching parents, you know,if they're overwhelmed and they're like,
oh my God, my kid must have ADHD,they must have this.
And I'm like, no, they just needto be taught to regulate their emotions.
(40:16):
And then maybe they will have that later.
And maybe that is somethingthat they have to be on medication.
But let's try some other ways to helpput a name to a feeling.
I think putting names to feelingshelp kids understand, right?
They put a name to a color.
They put a name to a, you know, a letter.
Why can't we do that for the feelingsand the emotions and regulating that.
(40:40):
Yeah.
And I think similarly, too,like even talking about medication with
the kids, like I take-- I have asthma too.
So I have to take two different inhalersand take it like a daily allergy--
like all the things.
And so,and then I was taking my other medicines
and you know, my daughter was like,what's that one for?
And I said, oh, that's for my lungs.
And she's like, oh, what's thatlike inhaler for?
(41:00):
It's like, well, it's also for my lungs.
And she's like, what's that one for?
And I was like, well, that's for my brain.
And she was like, what do you mean?
I said, well, just kind of helpsmom's brain work a little bit better.
Like it helps me functiona little bit better.
So even talking about--It's destigmatizing it.
Yes. Yeah.
And so like giving that language to themto say like this is how I'm feeling or
(41:25):
helping them, like you said,with breathwork or we were just watching
an episode of Sesame Streetand Elmo was barely breathing.
And so we did some of that.
And so, you know,just like putting-- saying, you know, this
medicine helps my heartand this medicine helps my brain
and this-- you know, like, itjust, it's just part of your body.
It's something you take care of.
And so it's similar to that,like-- It's normalizing it.
(41:46):
It's not hiding the medication and like,oh my God they can't find this.
It's like, no,it is what it is. And mom needs this.
You know what I mean? And that's okay.
You may need it, but you may not. Right.
Exactly. Yeah. I love that.
It's beautiful.
You know, I'm so with both of you.
I, like--on this on this journey,I think
(42:07):
I learned that caring for my mental healthisn't like, a nice thing to do.
Like a luxury or like when I have time.
It's essential. Right?
And it's not just for me anymore.
It's also for my daughter.
I think, like you were saying,it models strength,
it models vulnerability,and it models self-respect and self-care.
(42:30):
So I think one of the hardest lessonsof motherhood
that I've learned livingwith a mental health condition
is that for me, that love alone doesn'tfill your cup.
You have to keep filling it yourself.
And I think that for me, meansasking for help,
(42:51):
admitting when you're struggling,and reminding yourself
that perfection is not the goal.
Presence is.
So we're there.
So no one should have to navigatethis journey alone, as we've talked about.
And I think the more that we all talkabout mental
health like we're doing today,the more we break down stigma
(43:14):
for ourselves, for the next generation,it all makes a difference.
So I just want to thank you bothso much for sharing your stories, friends,
and being here and talkingthrough all of this with me today.
Yeah. Thank you both so much. It's so,healing honestly, to be kind
of in this room with you bothand getting to talk about it
(43:37):
and hopefully helping some other,some other folks too.
And I got to tell you,you know, meeting other moms like you two,
just hearing your storiesmakes me go, okay, I'm not alone.
I'm not,you know, losing my mind over here.
Hearing about the,you know, postpartum OCD.
(43:58):
That is something I'm going to look intobecause I still feel that.
And I just thought like, oh,I'm just-- must be, you know, crazy.
You know, it's like just a symptomof bipolar disorder or something.
No, it's like an actual thing.
Maybe there's something that can help meget through that, you know?
And I think a lot of womenare doing this alone.
And I think that, you know,I want to clarify that
(44:20):
when I say to people,you know, find a support system,
it's not about finding like,you know, a lover or a partner
that's going to help you becausethose partners sometimes are not what,
you know, you need.
You need another momthat's been through the experience
or going through itwith you to really not feel alone.
You know, like I said,I had a whole family here
(44:42):
and it was not-- in this little roomthat I'm in
and I would just, like, cryI felt so alone.
So it's about finding connectionslike this, you know?
And if you could share that postpartumsupport group as well afterwards,
that would be great because I would loveto share that with people as well.
100%. And before weconclude officially,
(45:03):
I want to ask the questionthat we always ask
every podcast guest on our showand that is,
the world can be a difficult place, right?
And sometimes it can be hardto hold on to hope.
That's why on each episodewe dedicate the last couple of minutes
here, to a special segment calledHold on to Hope.
(45:26):
So, I'll start with Alessandraand move on to Kate.
Can each of you tell us what helpsyou hold on to help?
Oh, gosh, I'm so emotional now.
I feel like what makes me hold on to hoperight now, it's my daughter
and her little friends.
These brains are so fun to watch,and they're so exciting to see
(45:47):
and grow and learn.
And every day it's a new experience.
And when I see, you know,she takes a deep breath
and when she's feeling upsetand that calming thing like that
heart to heart connection,like when I hold her, I'm like, oh, wow.
Like the I have hope in the worldand I have hope in humanity,
(46:07):
I think when I see that.
And I have hope that I'm doing anokay job as a mom
because I see how empatheticshe'll, you know, if there's a kid crying,
she goes up, it's okay.
Like it's okay.
And I'm like, oh my God, she's two. Like,how does she know that?
You know?
And maybe that's just like the aliensthat made or something, like,
made her like that, but I like tothink, you know, it's because
(46:31):
I'm an empathetic person andshe's seeing that and she's copying that.
And so I have hope thatthat we can heal each other.
That's such a good one.
I love that, the ideaof healing each other and
parenthood is wild like that.
Isn't it?
You really-- there'sso much healing that happens by
watching this little human growoutside of you.
(46:53):
It's like the most--one of the most trippy parts of
parenthood,I think, is sort of watching that happen.
The thing that gives me hopein addition to,
you know, Gen Z and our kids,which I guess are Gen Alpha, maybe.
I--what are they? I don't know.
(47:16):
And you know, GenZ being so open and really, you know,
demanding the conversation to happen,like, even in their workplaces and,
getting to talk to some of our partnersabout that, like, well,
our younger employees are sayingwe have to make sure that,
you know, insurance plan coversmental health care and stuff like that.
It's kind of amazing.
But again, I mean, one of the reasonsthat NAMI's work is so important to me
(47:39):
is because I think it is what sometimes,you know, in-- on dark days
or in dark moments, like,it is what I have come
to really cling to in terms ofseeing people
really out there doing the work.
Like NAMI has been around for 46 years.
The organization has seen a lot happenand weathered a lot of storms.
(48:04):
And I think that seeing,you know, people like our advocates
even like,you know, volunteers putting forth
all of these, all their voicesto, you know, push
for Medicaid coverage and,really just
seeing our team come togetherand having so many people so willing to.
(48:24):
And both of you really likeseeing both of you be so willing
to talk about your mental healthand share your stories.
And, you know, knowing thatthere are people out there doing this and
doing hard stuff,through sharing their stories
and working through their stuffand figuring it out,
I think is really, really helpful.
I love that.
Thank you so much. Yeah. Thank you.
(48:47):
So this has been Hope Starts With Us,a podcast by NAMI,
the National Alliance on Mental Illness.
If you're a new or expectant parentlooking for resources
about mental health, visitnami.org/NewParents.
You'll find information about mentalhealth before, during, and after pregnancy
with practical advice and guidance frompeople like us who've gone through it.
(49:11):
If you are looking for mental healthresources, you are not alone.
To connect with the NAMI HelpLineand find local resources,
visit nami.org/help.
Text "helpline" to 62640or dial 1-800-950-NAMI (6264). Or
(49:32):
if you're experiencingan immediate suicide, substance
use or mental health crisis,please call or text 988
to speak with a trained supportspecialist or visit 908lifeline.org.
It has been such a pleasureto be your host today.
Thanks for listening and be well.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Betrayal Weekly
Betrayal Weekly is back for a new season. Every Thursday, Betrayal Weekly shares first-hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. Hosted by Andrea Gunning, this weekly ongoing series digs into real-life stories of betrayal and the aftermath. From stories of double lives to dark discoveries, these are cautionary tales and accounts of resilience against all odds. From the producers of the critically acclaimed Betrayal series, Betrayal Weekly drops new episodes every Thursday. If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing them at betrayalpod@gmail.com and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations, and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience, and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack.