When navigating a new mental health diagnosis, there are a lot of ways someone’s life can change. If family support is available, the journey to recovery and stabilization can feel at least a little less challenging. In this episode, NAMI CEO Daniel H. Gillison, Jr. is joined by Major General Gregg F. Martin, retired, and his wife Maggie Ryan to explore the connections between family support, caregiving, and recovery from mental illness. During this conversation, listeners will hear about what types of support caregivers want, how families can address mental health stigma, and advice about navigating a mental health diagnosis on the journey to recovery and stabilization.
Hear more about Gregg F. Martin's story in episode 57, Leading and Living With Bipolar Disorder.
You can find additional episodes of this NAMI podcast and others at nami.org/podcast.
"Hope Starts With Us" is a podcast by NAMI, the National Alliance on Mental Illness. It is hosted by NAMI CEO Daniel H. Gillison, Jr.
Co-executive produced by Traci Coulter and Connor Larsen.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
And I thought to myself,I can't do this anymore
because the bottom line is somebody elseout there is feeling the way I'm feeling.
And if I open up and share thisand not be in the darkness about it,
that I know that there is solution.
(00:23):
It takes people around you.
Welcome to Hope Starts With Us,a podcast by NAMI,
the National Alliance on Mental Illness.
My name is Dan Gillisonand I'm the CEO for NAMI. NAMI
started this podcast because we believethat hope starts with us.
All of us.
Hope starts with ustalking about mental health.
(00:43):
Hope starts with us making informationaccessible.
Hope starts with usproviding resources and practical advice.
Hope starts with us sharing our storiesand hope starts with us
breaking the stigma.
If you or a loved one is strugglingwith a mental health condition
and have been looking for hope.
We made this podcast for you.
Hope starts with all of us.
(01:05):
Hope is a collective.
We hope that each episode,with each conversation
brings you into that collectiveso you know you are not alone.
So let me introduce our guest. AndI am so, so excited to talk to
(02:16):
this person today.
Carnie Wilson, born into the music world,has made her own
mark on the entertainment worldas a singer, TV personality, and actress.
She is a founding member of the pop trioWilson Phillips.
Beyond her music career,Carnie has appeared on television
(02:39):
as a host and guest star,and even made
(03:08):
a memorable cameo in the comedy filmBridesmaids.
Her diverse talents continue to inspireand entertain audiences worldwide.
(03:36):
She loves cooking and bakingwith her family
(03:57):
and resides in California with her family.
Carnie Wilson has always been an advocatefor helping and empowering
others. In the past,she's openly shared her experiences
(04:30):
with postpartum depressionand addiction and found strength
by being open about her mental healthchallenges,
(04:53):
as well as seeking treatment and support.
Now, it means so much to herto be able to use her voice to be open
about her own mental health journey,with the hope that she can help people
facing their own challenges.
Hope starts with us. All of us. Carnie,thank you for joining this podcast.
Would you start by telling usa little bit more about yourself,
(05:23):
such as your personal interestsor activities that you enjoy?
First of all, thank you for thatbeautiful introduction. Wow.
(05:56):
And I'm really, really gladto be here with you, Dan.
(06:16):
I am a big supporterof everything that you just
said, andit's like I was thinking
those exact words, andI just want to say that
(06:43):
just before I getto my thing, "hope" is
one of my favorite words ever.
And I think that, especially now,these days, we need more hope.
And there is hope.
(07:05):
So I never, ever,if we can start it and end
this with hope, I think that'sthe most important thing.
(07:41):
It's funny,growing up in a famous family,
I think that you automatically areperceived a certain way to
(08:10):
the public and you just neverknow what people who they are,
(08:34):
how they are, their family,all that, all those dynamics
(08:59):
until you go to their homeor you are a part of their lives.
So it's not always whatit appears to be.
(09:23):
And maybe that is with everyone actually,because I like to look at everyone
on an even playing field.
We are all humans.
We really are all the same.
(09:49):
So I look forthe similarities, not the differences.
(10:23):
So by me being very publicabout my story all these years,
(10:49):
I think that it has,I don't know what the word
(11:26):
is, humanized me or made peoplefeel like they can relate to me as just
a human being.
So, yeah,I mean, my childhood was different
in many respects.
(11:48):
I did grow up in a household with a fatherwho struggled with mental illness.
And on my mother's side,my grandmother May, she had depression
and anxiety from way backwhen I can remember.
She was living with,you know, some kind of depression
(12:14):
for as long as I can remember.
And she sort of, like, would gointo a room for a few days
(13:13):
and have what my mom was saying,she's having a mental breakdown.
(13:52):
And this is the, you know,the 50s generation, you know,
(14:46):
and that sort of era, 50s and 60swhere we've come so far,
we know our resources are so much betternow, right Dan?
And back thenwe just thought grandma
(15:07):
was really sensitive.
My daddy was, you know, this Beach Boy,creating all this music,
bringing so much love intothe world and inside,
(15:39):
I think he was justreally, you know, going through it
(16:01):
and realizing thatwhether it was, you know,
(16:29):
psychotic episodes,or voices or drugs, that addiction,
(16:49):
whatever it wasthat was fueling, his mental illness.
There was treatment in many ways,but he never really got it.
(17:26):
He never got thatreal full treatment and diagnosis
until yearsand years later in his 50s, where he was
diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder.
And he just-- he has--he blows my mind.
(17:48):
He continues to blow my mind.
He passed awayin June and it's been so hard.
But I don't think I've ever even beenmore aware of the impact
(18:11):
that his music has had.
His story has had, the powerin his sort of survival skills.
He was the strongest personI've ever known and outlived
(18:42):
and survivedeverybody on his side of the family,
which is just beautiful and mind blowing.
But he was alsoa very spiritual man.
(19:06):
And you know that song "God Only Knows,"I one time I asked him,
I said, "that's a love song, right?
What's that song about?" He said, no,no, that's a spiritual song.
I said, "what?"He says, "no, that's a that's about God.
That's about spirituality."So I've learned a lot from him
(19:27):
in my life about how, as I had beenfaced with the genetics,
(19:48):
being predisposed to depression, anxiety,I've been predisposed to that.
And I know who I am, and I've takenmy challenges in my own hands.
And it's never been like a linear thing.
It's up, it's down.
It's sideways,it's right, it's left. It's, you know.
But I've learned so much,especially in the last year with the work
that I've been doing for my campaign.
I know we'll get into that.
(20:11):
That was a very longanswer to your question,
but I actually didn't even touchon my interests.
And, I mean, I'm 57 years old.
I have two daughters, Lola and Lucy.
This last year has been,it's been a whopper.
It truly, openly can say that. It's beena whopper for my family, for all of us.
And the beautiful part about it, Dan,is that we have collectively been
so open about it to each other.
We have all seeked treatment.
My kids are in therapy.
(20:31):
That is that is fantastic.
As you've shared a bit about your family.
And Carnie, you know, if wego back to Wilson Phillips
and us being the consumers of youand your family's music, you know,
we see you sitting in the audience andyou on the stage.
(20:57):
And so we'relooking at the cover of your book,
and what you've just done isyou've taken us into the table of contents
and the chapters,and that's what we're talking about
in terms of families,really, and individuals
really understandingwhat their makeup is in its entirety.
(21:20):
So, thank you for sharing that with us.
Would you share a little bitabout your mental health
journey and what inspires youto talk about your experience?
(21:41):
Because you don't have to do it.
Thank you for doing it.
First of all,thank you because you are helping so many.
But what inspired you to talk aboutyour experience and from that experience,
what would you like to shareas a part of your story?
I was born to connect with people.
That's the truth.
And the opposite of connectionto me is isolation, really.
And I know from my own experience,when I was in that very dark,
dark place of addiction and depressionand feeling so isolated
(22:01):
and not-- and feeling the shame,I felt shame.
You know, there's pressure.
Everybody has pressure in their lives.
We all have pressure. And it can varyand it can come from different places.
But the root of it all is that I couldn't,I couldn't go any longer.
I wanted to live, I wanted to live.
And the more--and when Iwhen I sought my treatment, I got sober.
I started really delving into,what was happening inside of me, you know?
(22:22):
Why was I wanting to isolate?
Why did I feel the shame?
And I thought to myself, I can't dothis anymore because the
bottom line is somebody else outthere is feeling the way I'm feeling.
(22:51):
And if I open up and share thisand not be in the darkness about it,
that I know that there is solution.
It takes people around you.
There is a--I reached a desperate, place.
I reached total, like, surrender.
I came to a surrender that I needed help.
And I think that people struggle with thatbecause they think it's weak
or shows vulnerability.
But I really believe that peoplewill actually find their strength
(23:13):
and their couragein admitting that they need their help
and that they're vulnerableand whatever is going on in their brain,
whether it's this physical thing whereyou know that the dopamine or the, you
know,all the neurons or the synapse,
whatever that is, you know,you can seek the treatment that you need.
(23:34):
And it all starts with the honesty insideof you and your heart reaching
(27:11):
But when you do discoverthese things about yourself,
you know, there are momentswhen you can feel like-- I
(27:38):
have to support him.
(29:36):
I'm doomed.
You know, I can'thave to support him.
years.
have to support him.
out for help, knowing that there are,have to support him.
you know, organizations like you have that offer the resources that there are peoplein the same boat, but we can't get anywhere until we raise your hand
(29:59):
have to support him.
and say, "I need help." And I am not alone. And there is a way to get better. And also what I realizeis that, you know, there's no graduation here. There's a school. We're all in it together. We're all students, but there is no graduation.
have to support him.
(34:23):
So we like to say at NAMI, "meet peoplewhere they are, not where we want
have to support him.
the vulnerability,and the vulnerability is strength.
them to be," and makingthe vulnerability,
and the vulnerability is strength.
(34:43):
sure people knowthey're not alone.
the vulnerability,and the vulnerability is strength.
(36:22):
and have dinner and sit around the tablethe vulnerability,
and the vulnerability is strength.
and talk about, you know,how was your day?
How was your day? My father ate his steak in three seconds and was playing the piano already. It was an artistic environment. It was a fabulous and,you know, thriving environment musically. There were lots of people coming in and out of the house. And so I also went to a private school that had
the vulnerability,and the vulnerability is strength.
(36:50):
And I want to take that number down. I want to encourage people to, you know, look in that mirror and say, what am I noticing? What am I seeing here? Getthat help and reach out. And that there is treatment. For me, it's-- the campaign is probably the most people thing I've ever been involved with, simply because I know we're making
the vulnerability,and the vulnerability is strength.
know, on both sides.
So I could have sat around and said,the vulnerability,
and the vulnerability is strength.
(38:17):
for the birth of my children.
He went through so much. And I'm just so, I'm so honored to be his daughter. And it just-- it's so beautiful that I can continue singing his songs, you know, carryon the tradition. And it makes me so emotional because I think about, you know, when I see the people in the audience, you know, and they come to these shows and
the vulnerability,and the vulnerability is strength.
(38:39):
that. And to each of them.
the vulnerability,and the vulnerability is strength.
(40:15):
It is not weakness. So thank you for that.
And it's so important thatIt is so important to hold on for one more day. It's important to hold on. Although, I want to say we don't have to hold on anymore to get help. So
I will say that. But we have to hold on to our--my faith is big. I'm a very spiritual person. I remain teachable, I remain hopeful, I acknowledge that it's baby steps.
I repeat it for the audience and for us to repeat it for the audience to hear it. Vulnerability is strength. It is not weakness. You are not alone. So, and I'mjust going over some of the things you said because it's so powerful and is so important to the audience. So thank you, Carnie. May I ask you this? You currently are
(41:25):
made me feel such a relief. And, you know, in terms of what I've been doing the last year, it really, really has opened my own eyes to my own anxiety.
So it's not so much really depression that I felt the last year because, because I've been involved with connecting with Carnie Campaign, you know, as a spokesperson for Neurocrine Biosciences,this has been-- it has been incredible to raise this awareness for mental health, being the advocate, but also TD, tardive dyskinesia, which by the
(41:49):
way is, it's a visual condition. It is uncontrollable movements that people that are already suffering from mental illness, they take these medications that help themphysical thing that people see. One of the things that I've been talking about with the ambassadors who and the patients living with TD that we've connected with is that I once
had, twice actually, had Bell's palsy. So it's freezing of the muscles on one side of the face. It's a neurological condition, but I remember having to be in public, not beingable to move one side of my face.
(42:16):
I even walked down a red carpet for an ABCthey feel judged.
(43:00):
And that's what I'mtrying to break through that
and let them know that, youknow, we have compassion. We have patience for people that need, they need that. And it's here, and I am a part of being an advocate with them.
You know, it is so important to, again, share your story, but to be an ambassador and to let people know why you're an ambassador and that you'reText "NAMI" to 62640 or dial 800-950-NAMI. Or if you are experiencing an immediate suicide, substance use, or
(43:23):
mental health crisis, please call or text 988 to speak with the trained support specialist or visit 988lifeline.org.
(44:15):
I'm Dan Gillison, your host.
Thanks for listening andbe well.
And I thought to myself,I can't do this anymore
because the bottom line is somebody elseout there is feeling the way I'm feeling.
And if I open up and share thisand not be in the darkness about it,
that I know that there is solution.
(00:23):
It takes people around you.
Welcome to Hope Starts With Us,a podcast by NAMI,
the National Alliance on Mental Illness.
My name is Dan Gillisonand I'm the CEO for NAMI. NAMI
started this podcast because we believethat hope starts with us.
All of us.
Hope starts with ustalking about mental health.
(00:43):
Hope starts with us making informationaccessible.
Hope starts with usproviding resources and practical advice.
Hope starts with us sharing our storiesand hope starts with us
breaking the stigma.
If you or a loved one is strugglingwith a mental health condition
and have been looking for hope.
We made this podcast for you.
Hope starts with all of us.
(01:05):
Hope is a collective.
We hope that each episode,with each conversation
brings you into that collectiveso you know you are not alone.
So let me introduce our guest. AndI am so, so excited to talk to
(02:16):
this person today.
Carnie Wilson, born into the music world,has made her own
mark on the entertainment worldas a singer, TV personality, and actress.
She is a founding member of the pop trioWilson Phillips.
Beyond her music career,Carnie has appeared on television
(02:39):
as a host and guest star,and even made
(03:08):
a memorable cameo in the comedy filmBridesmaids.
Her diverse talents continue to inspireand entertain audiences worldwide.
(03:36):
She loves cooking and bakingwith her family
(03:57):
and resides in California with her family.
Carnie Wilson has always been an advocatefor helping and empowering
others. In the past,she's openly shared her experiences
(04:30):
with postpartum depressionand addiction and found strength
by being open about her mental healthchallenges,
(04:53):
as well as seeking treatment and support.
Now, it means so much to herto be able to use her voice to be open
about her own mental health journey,with the hope that she can help people
facing their own challenges.
Hope starts with us. All of us. Carnie,thank you for joining this podcast.
Would you start by telling usa little bit more about yourself,
(05:23):
such as your personal interestsor activities that you enjoy?
First of all, thank you for thatbeautiful introduction. Wow.
(05:56):
And I'm really, really gladto be here with you, Dan.
(06:16):
I am a big supporterof everything that you just
said, andit's like I was thinking
those exact words, andI just want to say that
(06:43):
just before I getto my thing, "hope" is
one of my favorite words ever.
And I think that, especially now,these days, we need more hope.
And there is hope.
(07:05):
So I never, ever,if we can start it and end
this with hope, I think that'sthe most important thing.
(07:41):
It's funny,growing up in a famous family,
I think that you automatically areperceived a certain way to
(08:10):
the public and you just neverknow what people who they are,
(08:34):
how they are, their family,all that, all those dynamics
(08:59):
until you go to their homeor you are a part of their lives.
So it's not always whatit appears to be.
(09:23):
And maybe that is with everyone actually,because I like to look at everyone
on an even playing field.
We are all humans.
We really are all the same.
(09:49):
So I look forthe similarities, not the differences.
(10:23):
So by me being very publicabout my story all these years,
(10:49):
I think that it has,I don't know what the word
(11:26):
is, humanized me or made peoplefeel like they can relate to me as just
a human being.
So, yeah,I mean, my childhood was different
in many respects.
(11:48):
I did grow up in a household with a fatherwho struggled with mental illness.
And on my mother's side,my grandmother May, she had depression
and anxiety from way backwhen I can remember.
She was living with,you know, some kind of depression
(12:14):
for as long as I can remember.
And she sort of, like, would gointo a room for a few days
(13:13):
and have what my mom was saying,she's having a mental breakdown.
(13:52):
And this is the, you know,the 50s generation, you know,
(14:46):
and that sort of era, 50s and 60swhere we've come so far,
we know our resources are so much betternow, right Dan?
And back thenwe just thought grandma
(15:07):
was really sensitive.
My daddy was, you know, this Beach Boy,creating all this music,
bringing so much love intothe world and inside,
(15:39):
I think he was justreally, you know, going through it
(16:01):
and realizing thatwhether it was, you know,
(16:29):
psychotic episodes,or voices or drugs, that addiction,
(16:49):
whatever it wasthat was fueling, his mental illness.
There was treatment in many ways,but he never really got it.
(17:26):
He never got thatreal full treatment and diagnosis
until yearsand years later in his 50s, where he was
diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder.
And he just-- he has--he blows my mind.
(17:48):
He continues to blow my mind.
He passed awayin June and it's been so hard.
But I don't think I've ever even beenmore aware of the impact
(18:11):
that his music has had.
His story has had, the powerin his sort of survival skills.
He was the strongest personI've ever known and outlived
(18:42):
and survivedeverybody on his side of the family,
which is just beautiful and mind blowing.
But he was alsoa very spiritual man.
(19:06):
And you know that song "God Only Knows,"I one time I asked him,
I said, "that's a love song, right?
What's that song about?" He said, no,no, that's a spiritual song.
I said, "what?"He says, "no, that's a that's about God.
That's about spirituality."So I've learned a lot from him
(19:27):
in my life about how, as I had beenfaced with the genetics,
(19:48):
being predisposed to depression, anxiety,I've been predisposed to that.
And I know who I am, and I've takenmy challenges in my own hands.
And it's never been like a linear thing.
It's up, it's down.
It's sideways,it's right, it's left. It's, you know.
But I've learned so much,especially in the last year with the work
that I've been doing for my campaign.
I know we'll get into that.
(20:11):
That was a very longanswer to your question,
but I actually didn't even touchon my interests.
And, I mean, I'm 57 years old.
I have two daughters, Lola and Lucy.
This last year has been,it's been a whopper.
It truly, openly can say that. It's beena whopper for my family, for all of us.
And the beautiful part about it, Dan,is that we have collectively been
so open about it to each other.
We have all seeked treatment.
My kids are in therapy.
(20:31):
That is that is fantastic.
As you've shared a bit about your family.
And Carnie, you know, if wego back to Wilson Phillips
and us being the consumers of youand your family's music, you know,
we see you sitting in the audience andyou on the stage.
(20:57):
And so we'relooking at the cover of your book,
and what you've just done isyou've taken us into the table of contents
and the chapters,and that's what we're talking about
in terms of families,really, and individuals
really understandingwhat their makeup is in its entirety.
(21:20):
So, thank you for sharing that with us.
Would you share a little bitabout your mental health
journey and what inspires youto talk about your experience?
(21:41):
Because you don't have to do it.
Thank you for doing it.
First of all,thank you because you are helping so many.
But what inspired you to talk aboutyour experience and from that experience,
what would you like to shareas a part of your story?
I was born to connect with people.
That's the truth.
And the opposite of connectionto me is isolation, really.
And I know from my own experience,when I was in that very dark,
dark place of addiction and depressionand feeling so isolated
(22:01):
and not-- and feeling the shame,I felt shame.
You know, there's pressure.
Everybody has pressure in their lives.
We all have pressure. And it can varyand it can come from different places.
But the root of it all is that I couldn't,I couldn't go any longer.
I wanted to live, I wanted to live.
And the more--and when Iwhen I sought my treatment, I got sober.
I started really delving into,what was happening inside of me, you know?
(22:22):
Why was I wanting to isolate?
Why did I feel the shame?
And I thought to myself, I can't dothis anymore because the
bottom line is somebody else outthere is feeling the way I'm feeling.
(22:51):
And if I open up and share thisand not be in the darkness about it,
that I know that there is solution.
It takes people around you.
There is a--I reached a desperate, place.
I reached total, like, surrender.
I came to a surrender that I needed help.
And I think that people struggle with thatbecause they think it's weak
or shows vulnerability.
But I really believe that peoplewill actually find their strength
(23:13):
and their couragein admitting that they need their help
and that they're vulnerableand whatever is going on in their brain,
whether it's this physical thing whereyou know that the dopamine or the, you
know,all the neurons or the synapse,
whatever that is, you know,you can seek the treatment that you need.
(23:34):
And it all starts with the honesty insideof you and your heart reaching
(27:11):
But when you do discoverthese things about yourself,
you know, there are momentswhen you can feel like-- I
(27:38):
have to support him.
(29:36):
I'm doomed.
You know, I can'thave to support him.
years.
have to support him.
out for help, knowing that there are,have to support him.
you know, organizations like you have that offer the resources that there are peoplein the same boat, but we can't get anywhere until we raise your hand
(29:59):
have to support him.
and say, "I need help." And I am not alone. And there is a way to get better. And also what I realizeis that, you know, there's no graduation here. There's a school. We're all in it together. We're all students, but there is no graduation.
have to support him.
(34:23):
So we like to say at NAMI, "meet peoplewhere they are, not where we want
have to support him.
the vulnerability,and the vulnerability is strength.
them to be," and makingthe vulnerability,
and the vulnerability is strength.
(34:43):
sure people knowthey're not alone.
the vulnerability,and the vulnerability is strength.
(36:22):
and have dinner and sit around the tablethe vulnerability,
and the vulnerability is strength.
and talk about, you know,how was your day?
How was your day? My father ate his steak in three seconds and was playing the piano already. It was an artistic environment. It was a fabulous and,you know, thriving environment musically. There were lots of people coming in and out of the house. And so I also went to a private school that had
the vulnerability,and the vulnerability is strength.
(36:50):
And I want to take that number down. I want to encourage people to, you know, look in that mirror and say, what am I noticing? What am I seeing here? Getthat help and reach out. And that there is treatment. For me, it's-- the campaign is probably the most people thing I've ever been involved with, simply because I know we're making
the vulnerability,and the vulnerability is strength.
know, on both sides.
So I could have sat around and said,the vulnerability,
and the vulnerability is strength.
(38:17):
for the birth of my children.
He went through so much. And I'm just so, I'm so honored to be his daughter. And it just-- it's so beautiful that I can continue singing his songs, you know, carryon the tradition. And it makes me so emotional because I think about, you know, when I see the people in the audience, you know, and they come to these shows and
the vulnerability,and the vulnerability is strength.
(38:39):
that. And to each of them.
the vulnerability,and the vulnerability is strength.
(40:15):
It is not weakness. So thank you for that.
And it's so important thatIt is so important to hold on for one more day. It's important to hold on. Although, I want to say we don't have to hold on anymore to get help. So
I will say that. But we have to hold on to our--my faith is big. I'm a very spiritual person. I remain teachable, I remain hopeful, I acknowledge that it's baby steps.
I repeat it for the audience and for us to repeat it for the audience to hear it. Vulnerability is strength. It is not weakness. You are not alone. So, and I'mjust going over some of the things you said because it's so powerful and is so important to the audience. So thank you, Carnie. May I ask you this? You currently are
(41:25):
made me feel such a relief. And, you know, in terms of what I've been doing the last year, it really, really has opened my own eyes to my own anxiety.
So it's not so much really depression that I felt the last year because, because I've been involved with connecting with Carnie Campaign, you know, as a spokesperson for Neurocrine Biosciences,this has been-- it has been incredible to raise this awareness for mental health, being the advocate, but also TD, tardive dyskinesia, which by the
(41:49):
way is, it's a visual condition. It is uncontrollable movements that people that are already suffering from mental illness, they take these medications that help themphysical thing that people see. One of the things that I've been talking about with the ambassadors who and the patients living with TD that we've connected with is that I once
had, twice actually, had Bell's palsy. So it's freezing of the muscles on one side of the face. It's a neurological condition, but I remember having to be in public, not beingable to move one side of my face.
(42:16):
I even walked down a red carpet for an ABCthey feel judged.
(43:00):
And that's what I'mtrying to break through that
and let them know that, youknow, we have compassion. We have patience for people that need, they need that. And it's here, and I am a part of being an advocate with them.
You know, it is so important to, again, share your story, but to be an ambassador and to let people know why you're an ambassador and that you'reText "NAMI" to 62640 or dial 800-950-NAMI. Or if you are experiencing an immediate suicide, substance use, or
(43:23):
mental health crisis, please call or text 988 to speak with the trained support specialist or visit 988lifeline.org.
(44:15):
I'm Dan Gillison, your host.
Thanks for listening andbe well.
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