January 28, 2026 • 38 mins
At NAMI, we know that sharing stories about mental health conditions helps reduce stigma still held by far too many. In this episode, NAMI CEO Dan Gillison is joined by award-winning documentary producer-writer-director Frank Kosa. Frank is also an executive producer of the podcast “Brain Stories,” which demonstrates commitment to changing mainstream culture by creating awareness and caring for people living with mental health conditions. During Dan and Frank’s conversation, listeners will hear about NAMI family education courses, the impact of sharing stories, and how storytelling can change minds and culture.
As students head back to classrooms this month, discover all that NAMI's Back to School resources can offer. Visit NAMI's Back to School resource hub for more ways to connect with young people heading back to school and support them through their new routines. Check out nami.org/BackToSchool to learn more.
You can find additional episodes of this NAMI podcast and others at nami.org/podcast.
"Hope Starts With Us" is a podcast by NAMI, the National Alliance on Mental Illness. It is hosted by NAMI CEO Daniel H. Gillison, Jr.
Co-executive produced by Traci Coulter and Connor Larsen.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Storytelling,I see is as an ultimate act of hope.
(00:03):
Storytelling is how we inform,how we guide, how we pass on wisdom
and ultimately, stories are about growth.
Welcome to Hope Starts With Us,a podcast by NAMI,
the National Alliance on Mental Illness.
I'm your host, Dan Gillison, NAMI's CEO.
NAMI started this podcast becausewe believe that hope starts with us.
(00:27):
Hope starts with ustalking about mental health.
Hope starts with us making informationaccessible.
Hope starts with usproviding resources and practical advice.
Hope starts with us sharing our stories.
And hope startswith us breaking the stigma.
If you or a loved one is strugglingwith the mental health condition
(00:48):
and have been looking for hope,we made this podcast for you.
Hope starts with all of us.
Hope is a collective.
We hope that each episodewith each conversation
brings you into that collectiveso you know you are not alone.
And now I'd like to welcome our guest,Frank Kosa.
(01:09):
Frank is an award winning documentaryproducer, writer, director and journalist.
And he is the executive producerof a podcast called Brain Stories.
Frank, welcome.
Thank you for being with us today.
And we'd love to know more about you,your work, what brought you to this work,
and why you're using your incredibletalent and experience to tell stories
(01:31):
about mental health conditions.
Well, first of all,thank you so much for having me
and thank youfor all the work that you do.
I think it's phenomenal. I'm a huge fan.
And I think,you know, just to briefly
tell you what brought me into this,I mean, I've spent my life telling stories
(01:53):
and have always lookedfor the underreported story.
That's always been my thing.
Looking for the storiesthat other people weren't telling often
about peoplewho were being marginalized or ostracized.
And, at one point,a friend of mine ushered me into,
a meeting, and,I'm not going to name names,
(02:15):
but its initials were,the National Alliance on Mental Illness.
And there were people sitting aroundin the meeting
telling their storiesabout what was happening with them,
dealing with loved oneswith serious mental illness.
It was a support group.
And I sat there and I heard thefirst 2 or 3 sentences out of one person
and I went like,"Wow, that's an amazing story!"
(02:36):
That- that- I want to tell that story.
Someone should be telling that story.
And the next person spokeand I had the exact same reaction,
and the next person spoke,and I had the exact same reaction.
And I left that thinking.
I'm just going to go find the film companythat was telling these stories
and go work for them.
I'm going to tell them to hire mebecause I want to tell these stories.
These are really important stories.
(02:58):
And I'd never heard any of them before.
So I went out and had a look,and no one was telling these stories
in the film and television world.
So I actually got togetherwith a co-executive producer on this,
Janet Yang, who is also very interestedin telling stories
and has her own stories.
(03:19):
And ultimately we decided,we were going to do,
we were going to do a podcastbecause we need to tell these stories.
They need to get out there.
And that became-andthat began a long journey that,
I vastly underestimatedthe length, duration,
and amount of work went into. But,ultimately, found some stories
(03:42):
that were incredibly powerful,really moving.
You know, in the, in the making of them,I have to hear them like,
like 5 or 10 times in the final week.
I just, you know, have to listento clean up little things.
And every time I hear them, I'mstill tearing up.
Every single time.
I know what's going to happen.
I know these stories backwardsand forwards, but they still
(04:04):
they still cause me--they'rejust so moving that they cause me
to tear up every single timeI listen to them.
They're beautiful stories.
Really incredible stories.
And I'm very, very proud of adding to the,you know, the great,
the great, what I call the literatureof serious mental illness that, you know,
NAMI does.
I mean, there's Ken Duckworth's book, Dr.
Duckworth's book, the You Are Not Aloneseries. Same exact--same Exact
(04:27):
Thing podcast.
The podcast I do, just another way oftelling some of these great stories
and getting them out there.
You know, Frank, again,this is just a really rich conversation
that we're havingand will continue to have.
And our audienceprobably doesn't know this.
So let me lead off by saying,in your career producing, writing,
and directing workfor major publications and organizations
such as The Science Channel,Discovery, and National Geographic,
(04:55):
what have you learned aboutthe impact of telling stories?
You've said a little bit about it,but I mean, think about that,
and I really want the audience,if I could hold onto this
for a second--the Science Channel,Discovery, National Geographic,
so I mean, and major publicationsand organizations.
So you, you, you know, about the narrativeand the importance of that narrative.
(05:17):
What have you learned overyour over your expansive career about the,
the powerand the impact of telling stories?
Yeah, that's a great question.
And power really is the key word, I think.
You know,I think, you know, as a species,
we've been telling storiesever since we figured out
how to make fire,and we sit around a campfire
and we would tell stories to each other,and we would do that
(05:39):
for really important reasons, because itgives us information,
it helps us figure out how to survive,and ultimately provides connection.
Stories connect us,and a really well-told
story brings people closer together.
(05:59):
And I think, you know, a lot of the workthat I've done in television
and journalism, that was my goal.
It's not so much a stated goalin those in those particular fields.
It's often just tell a great storyand get as big an audience as you can.
But I think I've always strivento get to connect people
as much as possible with storiesand always look for stories
where people are going to connect,and especially take them into worlds
(06:26):
that they don't knowor might not know, or be unfamiliar with.
And serious mental illness is one of thoseworlds where, as you, as you know,
there's a lot of isolation,there's a lot of walling off,
there's a lot of not talking about it.
And the result is that average people,your person who might not have
someone who lives, know someone who liveswith a serious mental illness,
(06:46):
doesn't know about the world.
That world.
Doesn't knowwhat mean--what mental illness is like,
doesn't know what psychosisis, and often are just scared by it
or turned off by it.
And I really-- my goal was tosimply dissolve that as much as possible
and really foster understanding,because that's what leads to connection.
That'swhat makes storytelling so powerful.
(07:09):
You know, Frank, I appreciate that.
It is about connectionsand stories do connect us.
And, you know, it's,it's kind of like, "Did you know?"
and demystifyingthat which people do not understand.
So thinking about thosestorytelling lessons,
how does that extend to telling storiesabout mental health conditions?
(07:29):
And you can lend your talentto so many different disciplines?
How does this extend to telling storiesabout mental health conditions,
and what impact can sharingstories have on our mainstream culture?
Yeah, again, I think thatyour question goes right
to the core of everything.
(07:50):
I think a lot of people who don't,who don't know someone or don't know
they know of someone who liveswith serious mental illness
feel like they have no connection to it.
And, and they,they will hear serious mental illness
and they will, you know, glaze overor they will just sort of step away.
(08:12):
They'll just step back.
I mean, I've seen it in-- it's interestingwhen I have conversations about this,
I see-- I can tell right away,as soon as I say serious mental illness
or schizophrenia or bipolar disorder,people either step back or they step in
and it's like the lights going onor the lights going off.
I think the, the, the,the power of telling these stories
(08:33):
is that we're changing.
We can change how the light,when the light goes off, especially.
We can start helping people understandand see what this is like
and become interested in it. Becausethese stories are fascinating.
They're fascinating.
I mean, I,I originally got really interested
in stories because I came at itfrom a sort of a little bit
of an intellectual point of view of like,well, how is the brain actually working,
(08:56):
what's happening in people's brains?
And I was curious to know, like, what is,you know, what is serious mental illness.
What is schizophrenia, for example?
And we talk about peoplehaving a break with reality.
I'm like, what does that mean?
That they go to a completely differentreality?
It's a partially different reality.
It's a-- and so I got interestedin working with the brain.
(09:19):
But ultimately,what became really interesting to me,
what I foundthe heart of the stories were where the,
you know, peopleworking with the differences that come up
with serious mental illness and they,you know, can make life really hard,
especially people who are really in the,in the throes of it.
It's not the not--I'm not sugarcoating any of this.
(09:40):
But it'show inventive and creative people
get in responding to it.
And also, I think the other,the other biggest part of the story was,
how poorly we deal withserious mental illness
as a culture, as a nation.
We really, I'msorry to say we're really failing.
(10:03):
And I, the more I heardand the more I saw, the more I looked at,
the more clear that was.
And I felt like that's somethingI really want to change
in the waythat we can change, begin to change
that is through helping people understandwhat it is we're dealing with.
Stories help that. It's one small part.
Everyone's doing a part.
NAMI is doing a huge part in that.
(10:24):
Clinicians do a part in that.
People and people who talk and advocatesand activists do a
huge part of that as well.
We all, we all need to speak up.
We all need to get the word out.
You know, Frank, I--justfirst of all, thank you
on behalf of NAMI for what you're doingand how you are
bringing this to the forefrontin terms of with your podcast,
(10:46):
serious mental illness and,you know, individuals
and families that are navigating thisand individuals that are living
with and succeeding withand actually doing the very best
they canwith what they're what they're navigating.
So we so much appreciate,you know, what you do.
And as you began doing this work,Frank, in terms
(11:09):
of looking at serious mental illness,how--what are some of the stories
that, you know, just from a big picturethat you could share
that kind of stand out, to youwithout disclosing any person, but
just some of the kind of you know, notesthat you've taken from some of the stories
that folks have told you.
(11:30):
Wow. How much time do you have?
I can go on for about three days.
I love these stories.
I love the people who told these stories.
I got to tell you, I love them.
They're all so powerful and amazing.
So-- but I will say this.
I'm trying to say something gentle thatin our first season of Brain Stories,
we deliberately chose storiesfrom people from as many different walks
(11:51):
of life as possible.
Because one of the first things I heardwas mysterious mental illness strikes,
you know, every group people,every ethnicity, every race,
every culture, every income class.
And, and I thought, like, okay,so I want to
I want to get as many different storiesas I can to--
because that's the way it is.
(12:14):
So everyone can see that someone like themlives with
mental illness, or knows someone who liveswith mental illness
and is supporting them. And,and so we tell a lot of different stories
from a lot of different places.
But, one of the first storiesI heard, for example,
(12:35):
the very first thing,this was one of the one of those stories
that made my, that I was talking aboutearlier, that just made my eyes pop out
was, Adrian's story where he said, yeah,I was,
I was two years old when I began helpingto take care of my dad,
who had had a psychotic breakand developed schizophrenia.
(12:59):
And I went, two years old?
How can you take care of somebodyat two years old?
And he described, like,he would-- his mom would call
when it was time for his dadtake his medicine,
and he couldn't, he was too youngto actually say the full word, medicine.
And so we would just say the last couplesyllables. Yeah.
"It's 'cine' time. It's medicine time."But the other thing that he said was
(13:20):
that he grew up in a familywhere his dad lived with schizophrenia,
and he knew no one else who had a parentwith serious mental illness.
And he longed to know just anyone at--any one other person who did.
And when he finally foundsomebody as an adult
who said, yeah, oh, yeah, my mom,who's schizophrenic, went, "oh my gosh,
(13:43):
tell me about it." And she said,well, she, you know, left the family
and she was living on the streetswhen I was young.
And, and Aiden realized, oh,my story is really different
because my dad stayed with the familyand my mom and,
you know, worked to keep him there.
He became a great dad.
(14:04):
He loved his kids. He raised his kids.
And he'sgone on to do some really great work
with extended members of the family,one of whom is a special need kid.
And as Adrian said,he would have been--his
dad would have been, like,tossed to the curb
if his family hadn't donethe work that they had done to help,
(14:26):
you know, protect himand insulate him and the family as well.
And it meant telling stories.
It meant telling,you know, stories to the outside world
about, everything's fine here.
We're okay herebecause they were so afraid
that if people knew,they would take their dad away.
So that's the kind of story that I thinkis incredibly powerful to tell.
(14:47):
That speaks to the kind of isolationthat that can-- that is so common
for serious mental illness and so harmful.
It's so hurtfulto--and the exact
wrong thing to do with mental illness.
Like isolation's not the thing to do.
We need to connect.
We need to support.
We absolutely need to connect.
(15:07):
You know, I liken it to a jacketcover of a book, Frank.
We oftentimes will, you know,see a the jacket
cover of a book and just think, oh my,this is going to be a fantastic read.
But we, we don't get into the tableof contents in the chapters.
And what I mean by that isthis is what we're talking about right
here is that, you know,we see Adrian's home from the outside.
(15:30):
We don't see what's happening inside.
And you, you've got to examine that.
And, you know,we say nothing about us without us.
But he didn't know there wasn't us.
He just knew him.
That's one part of it.
The other part of itis that this, this person, this youngster
at two years old, became a caregiverwith his family, a family of caregivers.
And, as we've started a caregiver, lineon without help line,
(15:55):
we understand that caregivingis so important as well.
I, you know, I, like you would talkabout this forever in terms of as we say
we want to reduce the stigma.
We want to demystify, seriousmental illness and, and, and talk about it
more and change this, this conversationand change the narrative.
(16:17):
Why don't you share with our audienceabout Brain Stories?
How did it come about?
What is it about? And,that kind of thing, if you don't mind.
Of course. Yeah, I'd be happy to, I mean.
So brain Stories is, a we are,we have 13 episodes in our first season.
We're telling carefully craftednarrative stories,
(16:40):
which, was again, it's--so it's what I do.
And, I really, they're really,they're really profiles of people,
their life stories.
True life stories, obviously, of peoplethat cover large spans of time, lifetimes.
The tell true stories of people withmental illness or those who support them.
(17:01):
The episodes are about 30 minutes long,and we are in the midst of releasing them
right now.
We'll go through the middle of April 2026,every--
there's a couple that are multi-part,but mostly they're 30 minutes.
Tells a whole story.
And they tell, as I say, this wide varietyof stories, people from all over,
people with very different situations.
(17:22):
You know, Adrian, who I just mention who'sgot a dad who lives with schizophrenia.
Michael Stewart, who lived with a seriousmental illness and a substance use issue
for decades, and finally,finally, got well,
which is an amazing storywhen everyone else would have given up,
(17:44):
he--and had given up on him.
He's the ultimate story of hope, I think.
Brain Stories is this wide varietyof stories that deal with a lot of issues.
And I'm reallymeant the first season to be,
that offer somethingthat almost anybody could relate to.
But that's to say they're powerful,they're carefully crafted.
We spent hundreds of hoursworking on them.
(18:05):
So these are really carefullyput together stories.
And the ultimately--ultimately,I think I want to say that they're,
you know, they're, they're deeply moving.
That was really the goal.
We're looking to change people'shearts around this.
There's a lot of peoplewho are doing great work to change minds,
(18:26):
and, that's really important too.
I don't think one is more importantthan the other.
But we're looking to change people'shearts, and we're looking to reach people
who, not just people who I call like,who already know this world. People
who live with mental illness and peoplewho support them, but the people who
(18:47):
are curious,who may not know it directly,
but are caring,compassionate people who,
who really just,you know, would listen to the story
and go, oh, oh, I never thoughtabout serious mental illness.
That's fascinating and really interesting.
And now I have a better understanding.
And when I hear a story in the newsor I see somebody
(19:12):
or that person in my familythat I heard about, but
never actually had a conversation with,they're going to start speaking up.
They're going to start noticingthat in a way that they haven't
with more understanding and empathy.
So that's, that's bring-- that's, that'swhy we do Brain Stories.
And it's, you know, one small part,as I say, you know,
you do so much work in this every day andbooks like You Are Not Alone
(19:38):
and the, the You're Not Aloneseries just so important.
I mean, it's all part of the same,the same work
to get the word outand talk about something
that we don't talk about enough.
Yeah.
And it's something that you saidearlier, Frank.
Thank you for that.
Is that mental illness and seriousmental illness does not know a party.
(20:00):
It doesn't know an income level.
It doesn't know what gender.
It doesn't know what race and ethnicity.
It doesn't know a community.
It impacts all.
So, as you are doing this workand have been doing this work, we,
we absolutely appreciate,that lens that you're looking at it
through and the peoplethat you're bringing to the stories
(20:22):
and what, what our audience may not knowis that you were coming east
and you got on the plane to come and see,see me and sit down
and talk about brain stories.
And I'm so appreciativefor you doing that.
And we're appreciative for you lendingyour voice to us today, for this, podcast.
So I'd love if you could share, Frank,what is the one thing you wish more people
(20:43):
knew about the experience of peopleliving with
serious mental illness conditions?
I wish they understoodhow important the relationship is,
how important it is to reach out,how important it is
to--I hate to use this word againbecause I'm starting to
sound trite, but to connect,to connect with someone who has serious
mental illness.
(21:06):
I think the hard--one of the hardest things about living
with a mental illness is that there'sa lot of de-connection that's part of it.
There's peoplewith the serious mental illness
are going through a huge amount themselveson the inside.
That's-- it's a little hardfor us to know exactly what's illness
and what's their response to it,but they pull back.
(21:27):
There's often-- they're afraid.
They're often really afraid.
Especially when it first begins to developbecause they don't understand
what's going on.
They feel a differenceand they see a difference,
but they're withdrawing from the world.
And what the best response is,is to reach out and connect
and just say, hey, how are you doing?
What's going on?
And meet them where they are.
(21:47):
I mean, I might think, oh,this person has a serious mental illness,
but they might not think that.
And it's important to just,I think it's really important
to just say, like, so how are you doing?
What's going on? And,and they maybe talk,
they may talk about anything,but it's important
just to listen and to show that we listen.
(22:09):
And ultimatelylistening is a powerful act of caring.
It's where caring begins.
And so even if they're talkingabout something that sounds absolutely
crazy about flying saucers or whatever,it's important to just to,
just to be able to say like, oh, flyingsaucers, okay.
And how does that sound? Scary?
Is it scary or is it okay, or is it--justkeep the conversation going?
(22:32):
But to really reach out--letme just back up and say,
like when I started this,I feel like I knew
so little about serious mental illness.
I mean, I really was,as I go into a lot of,
a lot of the work I do, I don't know thatmuch about the fields I'm getting into,
and I go to try to findthe smartest people I can to talk to.
And, but what I've learned isit's really about the relationship.
(22:52):
It is all about the relationship.
To build a strong relationshipwith somebody
with serious mental illnessis the best way for them to get better.
And for all of us to get better.
It is, as I say, you know,I keep thinking about,
you know, I was interestedin the presidential election
of the 90s, and JamesCarville was the guy who said
(23:13):
"it's all about the economy, stupid."Like to try and boil it down to one issue.
And so my phrase is like,"it's all about the relationship, stupid."
That's what I feel like.
It's about building the relationshipsbecause, you know, Dan,
we know how to dealwith serious mental illness.
We know how to helppeople get the treatment we need for them
(23:35):
to get better.
And our success rate could bephenomenal, could be tremendous.
We just don't put in the time.
We just don't put in the time.
Because time is moneyin our culture, in our world,
we don't put it inand we're not willing to commit it.
But when we do putin the time, we get great results.
And that time is about buildingrelationships
(23:56):
because it doesn't happen overnight, itinvolves trust, and there's a lot going on
for people who are, who are involvedin serious mental illness.
And it's about reaching out,building that relationship
and spending the time,and we can get great results.
You know, Frank, as you sharedand you've talked about listening,
(24:16):
you know,we say meet people where they are,
not where we want them to be,meet them where they are.
So your story in regards to the personsaying flying saucers
and that kind of thing, meeting themwhere they are at that moment,
and then building relationships andconnecting, it's absolutely phenomenal.
What you're sharing in terms of,the basics of it, but really the,
(24:37):
the critical elements of it.
It is about relationships,and relationship
management, relationshipcultivation, and caring.
You know,people really, there's a quote there
that the team has heard me say often.
People don't care how much you knowuntil they know how much you care.
So if that is somethingwe can demonstrate, then we can actually,
(25:02):
you know, alterthe trajectory of someone's life.
So, with that said,there's probably
so much more that you'd like to share.
And then maybe even somethingyou're thinking of that I should have said
this, should've said that.
If there's anything you'd like to share,we would welcome that.
And, as we do that, there's onelast question we always ask our guest.
(25:25):
So, I can go there right now orleave it open for you to share anything
that you may be thinking of thatyou'd like the audience to know
before I get to this last question.
Well, thank you for opening that up. And,I would say two things.
One, one little thing is that,if you're interested in Brain Stories,
you can find it anywhereyou get your podcasts.
(25:45):
Just look for Brain Stories.
It's on Apple and Spotifyand all the, all the places.
We would love for you to listenand try one out and if you like it,
the most powerful thingis all the relationships that you have.
So tell your friends.
Tell your families.
That's the best way to get this word out.
I'm very, very proud of these storiesand the, and the team of people
(26:06):
who put them together.
And it's an incredibly talented,really unusual team that includes
a couple of psychiatrists, mental health,mental health advocate, a writer.
So a lot of really interestingpeople have got involved in this.
And the stories are phenomenal.
So please,if you like them, tell other people.
You know, as I said in the beginning,storytelling I see, is the--
(26:28):
as an ultimate act of hope.
Storytelling ishow we inform, how we guide,
how we, how we pass on wisdom.
And ultimately, stories are about growth,how we grow.
And all the stories in BrainStories are about how people grow.
They don't have Hollywood endings,by and large, it's
(26:49):
not like people walk off in the sunsetholding hands
with everything being beautifuland perfect and all the problems solved.
But every story is a story of triumph,and I think that's another thing
that people often miss in seriousmental illness, especially people
who don't have experience with it,is that there's
a lot of there's a lot of laughter still.
There's a lot of fun.
There's a lot of joy,and there's plenty of triumph.
(27:12):
It's not this sorrowful,defeated, horrible thing
that just makes us sad.
Not at all.
It's a deeply human experiencethat we all share.
And I would say to that end,one of the things that I really would love
to see isto change the way that we think
about mental illness from,it's something that other people have
(27:35):
or those people have to normalize it.
Mental illnessis something we all experience.
Most of us don't think of it that way.
We call it anxiety or we call it grief.
These are illnessesof our moods, of our minds,
and they're considered no big deal.
And we deal with them.
(27:56):
I mean, grief is sadand we understand that.
Serious mental illness is just that.
It's serious. It's harder to deal with.
But it's all on the same spectrum.
We are all on the same spectrum,and we are all dealing
with the same thing,just at different levels.
That is, that is so profound.
Frank.
Thank you for sharing that.
And yes, we're all on that spectrum.
(28:18):
Appreciate that.
And, and I hope the audience alsoheard you when you mentioned your team.
The team.
You know, one of the things I want theaudience to understand about Frank Kosa
when he goes into this work,whatever the work is that he's doing,
be that, for National Geographicor the Science Channel or something,
there's always that logic modelin terms of the body of work.
(28:39):
So Frank mentionedthe team that he worked with in creating
the Brain Stories.
So I just wanted to make surethat our audience heard that
it's not Frankgoing out here and selecting this person.
It is Frank working with a team andlooking at that body of work as he selects
(29:00):
the people that he is going to speak withand then sharing their stories.
So I didn't know if there's anythingFrank, you wanted to mention,
because I have the advantage of havingsat down with you
and understood that a little bit more.
So I didn't know if there's anythingyou wanted to say there,
but I wanted our audience to hear that.
Oh my gosh. Yes.
Thank you for that opportunity.
Thank you. Yeah, because that's so key.
(29:20):
And yeah, what a pleasureit was to sit down with you.
Thank you so much for making that time.
But, yeah, I think honestly,one of the smartest things
I did was bring insome of the smartest people,
I think, in the fieldand get the heck out of their way.
And these are people like Dr.
Ruth Shim, who's a Cultural Professorof Psychiatry at UC Davis.
Who not only does incredible workon serious mental health,
(29:45):
prevention, does incrediblework on race and structural racism
and the effect of thaton serious mental health.
But is just a tremendous psychiatristand person, has a brilliant perspective
and was kind enough to lend her talentsand considerable knowledge and actually
(30:07):
voice an episode about Anita that again,it's so moving.
It's just so movingand so brilliant with Ruth's perspective.
Dr. Mark Ragins,another one who-- another psychiatrist
who thinks very out of the boxin his thinking in that I say he's like,
got that uncommoncommon sense and approach to treatments.
(30:29):
And was-- is incredibly smartin terms of outreach
and did a lot of street psychiatryat one point.
Again, he's got a great book,that's called Journeys
Beyond the Frontier: A Rebellious Guide to Psychosis (30:39):
undefined
and Other Extraordinary Experiences.
Like "a rebellious guide to psychosis?"That picked,
that pricked my ears up rightaway. I'm like, what does that mean?
Yes, yes, how about that?
You can go to, you can go to the website.
But then he explains much betterthan I'm going to do
in these next couple of minutes.
But I think he looks at psychosis as,you know, it's obviously
(31:02):
people are seeing realityin a different way, but he humanizes it
and he understands that, okay,you know,
psychosis is a break from reality.
But 98% of what, of what we see insomeone is going through
serious psychosis is the same.
Most people still seethe sky is blue and you're in front of me
and I'm in front of you.
They do have some significant differencesand that is causing issues.
(31:26):
But Marklooks at it in a very different way
and has-- and is very humanin how he approaches treatment.
And he also embodies hope.
He gave up on nobody, ever.
And he had a huge amount of successin through
a particular system called the Village,where people were treated
with a great deal of dignity.
(31:48):
They were met where they were,and had incredible,
incredibly high recovery rates.
Sarah Haufrect, another one.
Mental health advocate.
Also somebody who's very involved in NAMI,who has her own direct experience.
I won't spoil itbecause it's part of the story, but,
bringing in people.
Boen Wong has also donea tremendous amount of work,
(32:11):
who's a brilliant, brilliant writerand creator.
He's a stay behind-the-scenes.
He hasn't voiced any,but he's in done a lot of episodes.
So the team has really been phenomenalin bringing different perspectives
that I could never bring.
And knowledgeand experience that I just don't have.
And my, my-- if I've done--if I didanything right, it was bringing them in
(32:32):
and getting them to help out,to tell the stories.
Well Frank, what an incredible team.
And, what you, what you have done,what you do is tremendous.
And, you know,just NAMI is so appreciative
of this opportunityfor us to work with you and,
to know of Brain Storiesand to see where we can go from here.
So I want to say thank youon behalf of NAMI, and I want to ask you
(32:56):
this last questionthat we ask all of our guests, as we,
I guess you would call it the outtake. So,a bit intimidated that I'm
talking to an executive producerthat has done worldwide work, Frank Kosa.
So, thank you very much for being so,so humble
in terms of who you are and,and the body of work you represent.
(33:17):
So, as we do this outtake,the question is this or the statement
and then the question: the world can be a difficult place, (33:21):
undefined
and sometimes it can be hard to hold onto hope.
That's why with each episode,we dedicate the last couple of minutes
of our podcast to a special segment calledHold on to Hope.
What helps you, Frank, hold on to hope?
(33:43):
Other people. People.
So, you know, you mentioned when,when you and I got together and
that meeting for me just to get my side ofit was I just felt like, wow,
I've just met this fantastic person who'sdoing incredible work, who's really smart
in running this organizationthat I wish I could make required
(34:07):
reading for the entire nationabout this organization.
Like everybody should know about NAMI.
But what grounded that for mewas just meeting you and hearing
you talk about it.
Hearing you talk about your work.
And in doing the work of BrainStories, I've run into countless people
(34:29):
who were phenomenal, fantastic people.
Some of them became stories.
Dr. Xavier Amador,became a story who, you know,
I ran into, heard a story, and--But he's doing phenomenal work.
I mean, he's a brilliant, clinician,and researcher.
And people would give me hopebecause I run into people
(34:51):
with tremendous hearts,tremendous minds, doing great work.
And especially in this climate,in this time when I don't know
what we're going through.
But cruelty seems to be makinga huge comeback in the human experience.
I don't understand why, butmeeting people who
are caring and smart and working to, in ain a compassionate way,
(35:13):
is what gives me hope.
And I hope I've told some stories to--about those people
that will give other people hopeand provide those connections
that I was lucky enough to getwhen you and I got together,
and, and like,I get together with, numerous other people
around these stories.
(35:35):
People are, people are our best asset.
And wow we can--they can also seem our worst
as well at times,people are my greatest hope.
You know, Frank, as you said that,I kind of inverted the question
and I've flipped it,the mirror back on myself.
And what helps me hold on to hopeis meeting incredible,
incredible people like yourself.
(35:57):
Just, you know, our lunchwent, went a little bit longer
because the connection.
You mentioned that C-word, connection.
And again, this isjust meant to be what it is.
You lending your talent to this work.
It helps me hold onto hopethat there's people that care,
(36:18):
that people want to connect,that there's leaders out there,
talented, talented, people like Frank Kosathat want to do this work
and to help change the narrative.
And so that helps me hold on to hope,Frank.
And I just wanted to say thatbecause you used--you
connection, caring, compassion.
(36:40):
And then that other c-word was cruelty.
And what's so interesting about thatis that we know the difference.
And it is so critically importantthat we lead with the connection
with the caring and compassion.
So I just want to say thank you.
And my world is betterfrom having met you.
And I hope that our audience hearsthat, as they listen to this podcast.
(37:03):
So as we wrap up,this has been Hope Starts With Us,
a podcast by NAMI,the National Alliance on Mental Illness.
If you are looking for mental healthresources, you are not alone.
To connect with the NAMI HelpLineand local resources, visit NAMI.org/help.
Text "NAMI" to 62640or dial 800-950-NAMI.
(37:27):
Or if you are experiencingan immediate suicide, substance use, or
mental health crisis, please call or text988 to speak with a trained support
specialist or visit 988lifeline.org.
I'm Dan Gillison, your host.
Thanks for listening. Be well.
Storytelling,I see is as an ultimate act of hope.
(00:03):
Storytelling is how we inform,how we guide, how we pass on wisdom
and ultimately, stories are about growth.
Welcome to Hope Starts With Us,a podcast by NAMI,
the National Alliance on Mental Illness.
I'm your host, Dan Gillison, NAMI's CEO.
NAMI started this podcast becausewe believe that hope starts with us.
(00:27):
Hope starts with ustalking about mental health.
Hope starts with us making informationaccessible.
Hope starts with usproviding resources and practical advice.
Hope starts with us sharing our stories.
And hope startswith us breaking the stigma.
If you or a loved one is strugglingwith the mental health condition
(00:48):
and have been looking for hope,we made this podcast for you.
Hope starts with all of us.
Hope is a collective.
We hope that each episodewith each conversation
brings you into that collectiveso you know you are not alone.
And now I'd like to welcome our guest,Frank Kosa.
(01:09):
Frank is an award winning documentaryproducer, writer, director and journalist.
And he is the executive producerof a podcast called Brain Stories.
Frank, welcome.
Thank you for being with us today.
And we'd love to know more about you,your work, what brought you to this work,
and why you're using your incredibletalent and experience to tell stories
(01:31):
about mental health conditions.
Well, first of all,thank you so much for having me
and thank youfor all the work that you do.
I think it's phenomenal. I'm a huge fan.
And I think,you know, just to briefly
tell you what brought me into this,I mean, I've spent my life telling stories
(01:53):
and have always lookedfor the underreported story.
That's always been my thing.
Looking for the storiesthat other people weren't telling often
about peoplewho were being marginalized or ostracized.
And, at one point,a friend of mine ushered me into,
a meeting, and,I'm not going to name names,
(02:15):
but its initials were,the National Alliance on Mental Illness.
And there were people sitting aroundin the meeting
telling their storiesabout what was happening with them,
dealing with loved oneswith serious mental illness.
It was a support group.
And I sat there and I heard thefirst 2 or 3 sentences out of one person
and I went like,"Wow, that's an amazing story!"
(02:36):
That- that- I want to tell that story.
Someone should be telling that story.
And the next person spokeand I had the exact same reaction,
and the next person spoke,and I had the exact same reaction.
And I left that thinking.
I'm just going to go find the film companythat was telling these stories
and go work for them.
I'm going to tell them to hire mebecause I want to tell these stories.
These are really important stories.
(02:58):
And I'd never heard any of them before.
So I went out and had a look,and no one was telling these stories
in the film and television world.
So I actually got togetherwith a co-executive producer on this,
Janet Yang, who is also very interestedin telling stories
and has her own stories.
(03:19):
And ultimately we decided,we were going to do,
we were going to do a podcastbecause we need to tell these stories.
They need to get out there.
And that became-andthat began a long journey that,
I vastly underestimatedthe length, duration,
and amount of work went into. But,ultimately, found some stories
(03:42):
that were incredibly powerful,really moving.
You know, in the, in the making of them,I have to hear them like,
like 5 or 10 times in the final week.
I just, you know, have to listento clean up little things.
And every time I hear them, I'mstill tearing up.
Every single time.
I know what's going to happen.
I know these stories backwardsand forwards, but they still
(04:04):
they still cause me--they'rejust so moving that they cause me
to tear up every single timeI listen to them.
They're beautiful stories.
Really incredible stories.
And I'm very, very proud of adding to the,you know, the great,
the great, what I call the literatureof serious mental illness that, you know,
NAMI does.
I mean, there's Ken Duckworth's book, Dr.
Duckworth's book, the You Are Not Aloneseries. Same exact--same Exact
(04:27):
Thing podcast.
The podcast I do, just another way oftelling some of these great stories
and getting them out there.
You know, Frank, again,this is just a really rich conversation
that we're havingand will continue to have.
And our audienceprobably doesn't know this.
So let me lead off by saying,in your career producing, writing,
and directing workfor major publications and organizations
such as The Science Channel,Discovery, and National Geographic,
(04:55):
what have you learned aboutthe impact of telling stories?
You've said a little bit about it,but I mean, think about that,
and I really want the audience,if I could hold onto this
for a second--the Science Channel,Discovery, National Geographic,
so I mean, and major publicationsand organizations.
So you, you, you know, about the narrativeand the importance of that narrative.
(05:17):
What have you learned overyour over your expansive career about the,
the powerand the impact of telling stories?
Yeah, that's a great question.
And power really is the key word, I think.
You know,I think, you know, as a species,
we've been telling storiesever since we figured out
how to make fire,and we sit around a campfire
and we would tell stories to each other,and we would do that
(05:39):
for really important reasons, because itgives us information,
it helps us figure out how to survive,and ultimately provides connection.
Stories connect us,and a really well-told
story brings people closer together.
(05:59):
And I think, you know, a lot of the workthat I've done in television
and journalism, that was my goal.
It's not so much a stated goalin those in those particular fields.
It's often just tell a great storyand get as big an audience as you can.
But I think I've always strivento get to connect people
as much as possible with storiesand always look for stories
where people are going to connect,and especially take them into worlds
(06:26):
that they don't knowor might not know, or be unfamiliar with.
And serious mental illness is one of thoseworlds where, as you, as you know,
there's a lot of isolation,there's a lot of walling off,
there's a lot of not talking about it.
And the result is that average people,your person who might not have
someone who lives, know someone who liveswith a serious mental illness,
(06:46):
doesn't know about the world.
That world.
Doesn't knowwhat mean--what mental illness is like,
doesn't know what psychosisis, and often are just scared by it
or turned off by it.
And I really-- my goal was tosimply dissolve that as much as possible
and really foster understanding,because that's what leads to connection.
That'swhat makes storytelling so powerful.
(07:09):
You know, Frank, I appreciate that.
It is about connectionsand stories do connect us.
And, you know, it's,it's kind of like, "Did you know?"
and demystifyingthat which people do not understand.
So thinking about thosestorytelling lessons,
how does that extend to telling storiesabout mental health conditions?
(07:29):
And you can lend your talentto so many different disciplines?
How does this extend to telling storiesabout mental health conditions,
and what impact can sharingstories have on our mainstream culture?
Yeah, again, I think thatyour question goes right
to the core of everything.
(07:50):
I think a lot of people who don't,who don't know someone or don't know
they know of someone who liveswith serious mental illness
feel like they have no connection to it.
And, and they,they will hear serious mental illness
and they will, you know, glaze overor they will just sort of step away.
(08:12):
They'll just step back.
I mean, I've seen it in-- it's interestingwhen I have conversations about this,
I see-- I can tell right away,as soon as I say serious mental illness
or schizophrenia or bipolar disorder,people either step back or they step in
and it's like the lights going onor the lights going off.
I think the, the, the,the power of telling these stories
(08:33):
is that we're changing.
We can change how the light,when the light goes off, especially.
We can start helping people understandand see what this is like
and become interested in it. Becausethese stories are fascinating.
They're fascinating.
I mean, I,I originally got really interested
in stories because I came at itfrom a sort of a little bit
of an intellectual point of view of like,well, how is the brain actually working,
(08:56):
what's happening in people's brains?
And I was curious to know, like, what is,you know, what is serious mental illness.
What is schizophrenia, for example?
And we talk about peoplehaving a break with reality.
I'm like, what does that mean?
That they go to a completely differentreality?
It's a partially different reality.
It's a-- and so I got interestedin working with the brain.
(09:19):
But ultimately,what became really interesting to me,
what I foundthe heart of the stories were where the,
you know, peopleworking with the differences that come up
with serious mental illness and they,you know, can make life really hard,
especially people who are really in the,in the throes of it.
It's not the not--I'm not sugarcoating any of this.
(09:40):
But it'show inventive and creative people
get in responding to it.
And also, I think the other,the other biggest part of the story was,
how poorly we deal withserious mental illness
as a culture, as a nation.
We really, I'msorry to say we're really failing.
(10:03):
And I, the more I heardand the more I saw, the more I looked at,
the more clear that was.
And I felt like that's somethingI really want to change
in the waythat we can change, begin to change
that is through helping people understandwhat it is we're dealing with.
Stories help that. It's one small part.
Everyone's doing a part.
NAMI is doing a huge part in that.
(10:24):
Clinicians do a part in that.
People and people who talk and advocatesand activists do a
huge part of that as well.
We all, we all need to speak up.
We all need to get the word out.
You know, Frank, I--justfirst of all, thank you
on behalf of NAMI for what you're doingand how you are
bringing this to the forefrontin terms of with your podcast,
(10:46):
serious mental illness and,you know, individuals
and families that are navigating thisand individuals that are living
with and succeeding withand actually doing the very best
they canwith what they're what they're navigating.
So we so much appreciate,you know, what you do.
And as you began doing this work,Frank, in terms
(11:09):
of looking at serious mental illness,how--what are some of the stories
that, you know, just from a big picturethat you could share
that kind of stand out, to youwithout disclosing any person, but
just some of the kind of you know, notesthat you've taken from some of the stories
that folks have told you.
(11:30):
Wow. How much time do you have?
I can go on for about three days.
I love these stories.
I love the people who told these stories.
I got to tell you, I love them.
They're all so powerful and amazing.
So-- but I will say this.
I'm trying to say something gentle thatin our first season of Brain Stories,
we deliberately chose storiesfrom people from as many different walks
(11:51):
of life as possible.
Because one of the first things I heardwas mysterious mental illness strikes,
you know, every group people,every ethnicity, every race,
every culture, every income class.
And, and I thought, like, okay,so I want to
I want to get as many different storiesas I can to--
because that's the way it is.
(12:14):
So everyone can see that someone like themlives with
mental illness, or knows someone who liveswith mental illness
and is supporting them. And,and so we tell a lot of different stories
from a lot of different places.
But, one of the first storiesI heard, for example,
(12:35):
the very first thing,this was one of the one of those stories
that made my, that I was talking aboutearlier, that just made my eyes pop out
was, Adrian's story where he said, yeah,I was,
I was two years old when I began helpingto take care of my dad,
who had had a psychotic breakand developed schizophrenia.
(12:59):
And I went, two years old?
How can you take care of somebodyat two years old?
And he described, like,he would-- his mom would call
when it was time for his dadtake his medicine,
and he couldn't, he was too youngto actually say the full word, medicine.
And so we would just say the last couplesyllables. Yeah.
"It's 'cine' time. It's medicine time."But the other thing that he said was
(13:20):
that he grew up in a familywhere his dad lived with schizophrenia,
and he knew no one else who had a parentwith serious mental illness.
And he longed to know just anyone at--any one other person who did.
And when he finally foundsomebody as an adult
who said, yeah, oh, yeah, my mom,who's schizophrenic, went, "oh my gosh,
(13:43):
tell me about it." And she said,well, she, you know, left the family
and she was living on the streetswhen I was young.
And, and Aiden realized, oh,my story is really different
because my dad stayed with the familyand my mom and,
you know, worked to keep him there.
He became a great dad.
(14:04):
He loved his kids. He raised his kids.
And he'sgone on to do some really great work
with extended members of the family,one of whom is a special need kid.
And as Adrian said,he would have been--his
dad would have been, like,tossed to the curb
if his family hadn't donethe work that they had done to help,
(14:26):
you know, protect himand insulate him and the family as well.
And it meant telling stories.
It meant telling,you know, stories to the outside world
about, everything's fine here.
We're okay herebecause they were so afraid
that if people knew,they would take their dad away.
So that's the kind of story that I thinkis incredibly powerful to tell.
(14:47):
That speaks to the kind of isolationthat that can-- that is so common
for serious mental illness and so harmful.
It's so hurtfulto--and the exact
wrong thing to do with mental illness.
Like isolation's not the thing to do.
We need to connect.
We need to support.
We absolutely need to connect.
(15:07):
You know, I liken it to a jacketcover of a book, Frank.
We oftentimes will, you know,see a the jacket
cover of a book and just think, oh my,this is going to be a fantastic read.
But we, we don't get into the tableof contents in the chapters.
And what I mean by that isthis is what we're talking about right
here is that, you know,we see Adrian's home from the outside.
(15:30):
We don't see what's happening inside.
And you, you've got to examine that.
And, you know,we say nothing about us without us.
But he didn't know there wasn't us.
He just knew him.
That's one part of it.
The other part of itis that this, this person, this youngster
at two years old, became a caregiverwith his family, a family of caregivers.
And, as we've started a caregiver, lineon without help line,
(15:55):
we understand that caregivingis so important as well.
I, you know, I, like you would talkabout this forever in terms of as we say
we want to reduce the stigma.
We want to demystify, seriousmental illness and, and, and talk about it
more and change this, this conversationand change the narrative.
(16:17):
Why don't you share with our audienceabout Brain Stories?
How did it come about?
What is it about? And,that kind of thing, if you don't mind.
Of course. Yeah, I'd be happy to, I mean.
So brain Stories is, a we are,we have 13 episodes in our first season.
We're telling carefully craftednarrative stories,
(16:40):
which, was again, it's--so it's what I do.
And, I really, they're really,they're really profiles of people,
their life stories.
True life stories, obviously, of peoplethat cover large spans of time, lifetimes.
The tell true stories of people withmental illness or those who support them.
(17:01):
The episodes are about 30 minutes long,and we are in the midst of releasing them
right now.
We'll go through the middle of April 2026,every--
there's a couple that are multi-part,but mostly they're 30 minutes.
Tells a whole story.
And they tell, as I say, this wide varietyof stories, people from all over,
people with very different situations.
(17:22):
You know, Adrian, who I just mention who'sgot a dad who lives with schizophrenia.
Michael Stewart, who lived with a seriousmental illness and a substance use issue
for decades, and finally,finally, got well,
which is an amazing storywhen everyone else would have given up,
(17:44):
he--and had given up on him.
He's the ultimate story of hope, I think.
Brain Stories is this wide varietyof stories that deal with a lot of issues.
And I'm reallymeant the first season to be,
that offer somethingthat almost anybody could relate to.
But that's to say they're powerful,they're carefully crafted.
We spent hundreds of hoursworking on them.
(18:05):
So these are really carefullyput together stories.
And the ultimately--ultimately,I think I want to say that they're,
you know, they're, they're deeply moving.
That was really the goal.
We're looking to change people'shearts around this.
There's a lot of peoplewho are doing great work to change minds,
(18:26):
and, that's really important too.
I don't think one is more importantthan the other.
But we're looking to change people'shearts, and we're looking to reach people
who, not just people who I call like,who already know this world. People
who live with mental illness and peoplewho support them, but the people who
(18:47):
are curious,who may not know it directly,
but are caring,compassionate people who,
who really just,you know, would listen to the story
and go, oh, oh, I never thoughtabout serious mental illness.
That's fascinating and really interesting.
And now I have a better understanding.
And when I hear a story in the newsor I see somebody
(19:12):
or that person in my familythat I heard about, but
never actually had a conversation with,they're going to start speaking up.
They're going to start noticingthat in a way that they haven't
with more understanding and empathy.
So that's, that's bring-- that's, that'swhy we do Brain Stories.
And it's, you know, one small part,as I say, you know,
you do so much work in this every day andbooks like You Are Not Alone
(19:38):
and the, the You're Not Aloneseries just so important.
I mean, it's all part of the same,the same work
to get the word outand talk about something
that we don't talk about enough.
Yeah.
And it's something that you saidearlier, Frank.
Thank you for that.
Is that mental illness and seriousmental illness does not know a party.
(20:00):
It doesn't know an income level.
It doesn't know what gender.
It doesn't know what race and ethnicity.
It doesn't know a community.
It impacts all.
So, as you are doing this workand have been doing this work, we,
we absolutely appreciate,that lens that you're looking at it
through and the peoplethat you're bringing to the stories
(20:22):
and what, what our audience may not knowis that you were coming east
and you got on the plane to come and see,see me and sit down
and talk about brain stories.
And I'm so appreciativefor you doing that.
And we're appreciative for you lendingyour voice to us today, for this, podcast.
So I'd love if you could share, Frank,what is the one thing you wish more people
(20:43):
knew about the experience of peopleliving with
serious mental illness conditions?
I wish they understoodhow important the relationship is,
how important it is to reach out,how important it is
to--I hate to use this word againbecause I'm starting to
sound trite, but to connect,to connect with someone who has serious
mental illness.
(21:06):
I think the hard--one of the hardest things about living
with a mental illness is that there'sa lot of de-connection that's part of it.
There's peoplewith the serious mental illness
are going through a huge amount themselveson the inside.
That's-- it's a little hardfor us to know exactly what's illness
and what's their response to it,but they pull back.
(21:27):
There's often-- they're afraid.
They're often really afraid.
Especially when it first begins to developbecause they don't understand
what's going on.
They feel a differenceand they see a difference,
but they're withdrawing from the world.
And what the best response is,is to reach out and connect
and just say, hey, how are you doing?
What's going on?
And meet them where they are.
(21:47):
I mean, I might think, oh,this person has a serious mental illness,
but they might not think that.
And it's important to just,I think it's really important
to just say, like, so how are you doing?
What's going on? And,and they maybe talk,
they may talk about anything,but it's important
just to listen and to show that we listen.
(22:09):
And ultimatelylistening is a powerful act of caring.
It's where caring begins.
And so even if they're talkingabout something that sounds absolutely
crazy about flying saucers or whatever,it's important to just to,
just to be able to say like, oh, flyingsaucers, okay.
And how does that sound? Scary?
Is it scary or is it okay, or is it--justkeep the conversation going?
(22:32):
But to really reach out--letme just back up and say,
like when I started this,I feel like I knew
so little about serious mental illness.
I mean, I really was,as I go into a lot of,
a lot of the work I do, I don't know thatmuch about the fields I'm getting into,
and I go to try to findthe smartest people I can to talk to.
And, but what I've learned isit's really about the relationship.
(22:52):
It is all about the relationship.
To build a strong relationshipwith somebody
with serious mental illnessis the best way for them to get better.
And for all of us to get better.
It is, as I say, you know,I keep thinking about,
you know, I was interestedin the presidential election
of the 90s, and JamesCarville was the guy who said
(23:13):
"it's all about the economy, stupid."Like to try and boil it down to one issue.
And so my phrase is like,"it's all about the relationship, stupid."
That's what I feel like.
It's about building the relationshipsbecause, you know, Dan,
we know how to dealwith serious mental illness.
We know how to helppeople get the treatment we need for them
(23:35):
to get better.
And our success rate could bephenomenal, could be tremendous.
We just don't put in the time.
We just don't put in the time.
Because time is moneyin our culture, in our world,
we don't put it inand we're not willing to commit it.
But when we do putin the time, we get great results.
And that time is about buildingrelationships
(23:56):
because it doesn't happen overnight, itinvolves trust, and there's a lot going on
for people who are, who are involvedin serious mental illness.
And it's about reaching out,building that relationship
and spending the time,and we can get great results.
You know, Frank, as you sharedand you've talked about listening,
(24:16):
you know,we say meet people where they are,
not where we want them to be,meet them where they are.
So your story in regards to the personsaying flying saucers
and that kind of thing, meeting themwhere they are at that moment,
and then building relationships andconnecting, it's absolutely phenomenal.
What you're sharing in terms of,the basics of it, but really the,
(24:37):
the critical elements of it.
It is about relationships,and relationship
management, relationshipcultivation, and caring.
You know,people really, there's a quote there
that the team has heard me say often.
People don't care how much you knowuntil they know how much you care.
So if that is somethingwe can demonstrate, then we can actually,
(25:02):
you know, alterthe trajectory of someone's life.
So, with that said,there's probably
so much more that you'd like to share.
And then maybe even somethingyou're thinking of that I should have said
this, should've said that.
If there's anything you'd like to share,we would welcome that.
And, as we do that, there's onelast question we always ask our guest.
(25:25):
So, I can go there right now orleave it open for you to share anything
that you may be thinking of thatyou'd like the audience to know
before I get to this last question.
Well, thank you for opening that up. And,I would say two things.
One, one little thing is that,if you're interested in Brain Stories,
you can find it anywhereyou get your podcasts.
(25:45):
Just look for Brain Stories.
It's on Apple and Spotifyand all the, all the places.
We would love for you to listenand try one out and if you like it,
the most powerful thingis all the relationships that you have.
So tell your friends.
Tell your families.
That's the best way to get this word out.
I'm very, very proud of these storiesand the, and the team of people
(26:06):
who put them together.
And it's an incredibly talented,really unusual team that includes
a couple of psychiatrists, mental health,mental health advocate, a writer.
So a lot of really interestingpeople have got involved in this.
And the stories are phenomenal.
So please,if you like them, tell other people.
You know, as I said in the beginning,storytelling I see, is the--
(26:28):
as an ultimate act of hope.
Storytelling ishow we inform, how we guide,
how we, how we pass on wisdom.
And ultimately, stories are about growth,how we grow.
And all the stories in BrainStories are about how people grow.
They don't have Hollywood endings,by and large, it's
(26:49):
not like people walk off in the sunsetholding hands
with everything being beautifuland perfect and all the problems solved.
But every story is a story of triumph,and I think that's another thing
that people often miss in seriousmental illness, especially people
who don't have experience with it,is that there's
a lot of there's a lot of laughter still.
There's a lot of fun.
There's a lot of joy,and there's plenty of triumph.
(27:12):
It's not this sorrowful,defeated, horrible thing
that just makes us sad.
Not at all.
It's a deeply human experiencethat we all share.
And I would say to that end,one of the things that I really would love
to see isto change the way that we think
about mental illness from,it's something that other people have
(27:35):
or those people have to normalize it.
Mental illnessis something we all experience.
Most of us don't think of it that way.
We call it anxiety or we call it grief.
These are illnessesof our moods, of our minds,
and they're considered no big deal.
And we deal with them.
(27:56):
I mean, grief is sadand we understand that.
Serious mental illness is just that.
It's serious. It's harder to deal with.
But it's all on the same spectrum.
We are all on the same spectrum,and we are all dealing
with the same thing,just at different levels.
That is, that is so profound.
Frank.
Thank you for sharing that.
And yes, we're all on that spectrum.
(28:18):
Appreciate that.
And, and I hope the audience alsoheard you when you mentioned your team.
The team.
You know, one of the things I want theaudience to understand about Frank Kosa
when he goes into this work,whatever the work is that he's doing,
be that, for National Geographicor the Science Channel or something,
there's always that logic modelin terms of the body of work.
(28:39):
So Frank mentionedthe team that he worked with in creating
the Brain Stories.
So I just wanted to make surethat our audience heard that
it's not Frankgoing out here and selecting this person.
It is Frank working with a team andlooking at that body of work as he selects
(29:00):
the people that he is going to speak withand then sharing their stories.
So I didn't know if there's anythingFrank, you wanted to mention,
because I have the advantage of havingsat down with you
and understood that a little bit more.
So I didn't know if there's anythingyou wanted to say there,
but I wanted our audience to hear that.
Oh my gosh. Yes.
Thank you for that opportunity.
Thank you. Yeah, because that's so key.
(29:20):
And yeah, what a pleasureit was to sit down with you.
Thank you so much for making that time.
But, yeah, I think honestly,one of the smartest things
I did was bring insome of the smartest people,
I think, in the fieldand get the heck out of their way.
And these are people like Dr.
Ruth Shim, who's a Cultural Professorof Psychiatry at UC Davis.
Who not only does incredible workon serious mental health,
(29:45):
prevention, does incrediblework on race and structural racism
and the effect of thaton serious mental health.
But is just a tremendous psychiatristand person, has a brilliant perspective
and was kind enough to lend her talentsand considerable knowledge and actually
(30:07):
voice an episode about Anita that again,it's so moving.
It's just so movingand so brilliant with Ruth's perspective.
Dr. Mark Ragins,another one who-- another psychiatrist
who thinks very out of the boxin his thinking in that I say he's like,
got that uncommoncommon sense and approach to treatments.
(30:29):
And was-- is incredibly smartin terms of outreach
and did a lot of street psychiatryat one point.
Again, he's got a great book,that's called Journeys
Beyond the Frontier: A Rebellious Guide to Psychosis (30:39):
undefined
and Other Extraordinary Experiences.
Like "a rebellious guide to psychosis?"That picked,
that pricked my ears up rightaway. I'm like, what does that mean?
Yes, yes, how about that?
You can go to, you can go to the website.
But then he explains much betterthan I'm going to do
in these next couple of minutes.
But I think he looks at psychosis as,you know, it's obviously
(31:02):
people are seeing realityin a different way, but he humanizes it
and he understands that, okay,you know,
psychosis is a break from reality.
But 98% of what, of what we see insomeone is going through
serious psychosis is the same.
Most people still seethe sky is blue and you're in front of me
and I'm in front of you.
They do have some significant differencesand that is causing issues.
(31:26):
But Marklooks at it in a very different way
and has-- and is very humanin how he approaches treatment.
And he also embodies hope.
He gave up on nobody, ever.
And he had a huge amount of successin through
a particular system called the Village,where people were treated
with a great deal of dignity.
(31:48):
They were met where they were,and had incredible,
incredibly high recovery rates.
Sarah Haufrect, another one.
Mental health advocate.
Also somebody who's very involved in NAMI,who has her own direct experience.
I won't spoil itbecause it's part of the story, but,
bringing in people.
Boen Wong has also donea tremendous amount of work,
(32:11):
who's a brilliant, brilliant writerand creator.
He's a stay behind-the-scenes.
He hasn't voiced any,but he's in done a lot of episodes.
So the team has really been phenomenalin bringing different perspectives
that I could never bring.
And knowledgeand experience that I just don't have.
And my, my-- if I've done--if I didanything right, it was bringing them in
(32:32):
and getting them to help out,to tell the stories.
Well Frank, what an incredible team.
And, what you, what you have done,what you do is tremendous.
And, you know,just NAMI is so appreciative
of this opportunityfor us to work with you and,
to know of Brain Storiesand to see where we can go from here.
So I want to say thank youon behalf of NAMI, and I want to ask you
(32:56):
this last questionthat we ask all of our guests, as we,
I guess you would call it the outtake. So,a bit intimidated that I'm
talking to an executive producerthat has done worldwide work, Frank Kosa.
So, thank you very much for being so,so humble
in terms of who you are and,and the body of work you represent.
(33:17):
So, as we do this outtake,the question is this or the statement
and then the question: the world can be a difficult place, (33:21):
undefined
and sometimes it can be hard to hold onto hope.
That's why with each episode,we dedicate the last couple of minutes
of our podcast to a special segment calledHold on to Hope.
What helps you, Frank, hold on to hope?
(33:43):
Other people. People.
So, you know, you mentioned when,when you and I got together and
that meeting for me just to get my side ofit was I just felt like, wow,
I've just met this fantastic person who'sdoing incredible work, who's really smart
in running this organizationthat I wish I could make required
(34:07):
reading for the entire nationabout this organization.
Like everybody should know about NAMI.
But what grounded that for mewas just meeting you and hearing
you talk about it.
Hearing you talk about your work.
And in doing the work of BrainStories, I've run into countless people
(34:29):
who were phenomenal, fantastic people.
Some of them became stories.
Dr. Xavier Amador,became a story who, you know,
I ran into, heard a story, and--But he's doing phenomenal work.
I mean, he's a brilliant, clinician,and researcher.
And people would give me hopebecause I run into people
(34:51):
with tremendous hearts,tremendous minds, doing great work.
And especially in this climate,in this time when I don't know
what we're going through.
But cruelty seems to be makinga huge comeback in the human experience.
I don't understand why, butmeeting people who
are caring and smart and working to, in ain a compassionate way,
(35:13):
is what gives me hope.
And I hope I've told some stories to--about those people
that will give other people hopeand provide those connections
that I was lucky enough to getwhen you and I got together,
and, and like,I get together with, numerous other people
around these stories.
(35:35):
People are, people are our best asset.
And wow we can--they can also seem our worst
as well at times,people are my greatest hope.
You know, Frank, as you said that,I kind of inverted the question
and I've flipped it,the mirror back on myself.
And what helps me hold on to hopeis meeting incredible,
incredible people like yourself.
(35:57):
Just, you know, our lunchwent, went a little bit longer
because the connection.
You mentioned that C-word, connection.
And again, this isjust meant to be what it is.
You lending your talent to this work.
It helps me hold onto hopethat there's people that care,
(36:18):
that people want to connect,that there's leaders out there,
talented, talented, people like Frank Kosathat want to do this work
and to help change the narrative.
And so that helps me hold on to hope,Frank.
And I just wanted to say thatbecause you used--you
connection, caring, compassion.
(36:40):
And then that other c-word was cruelty.
And what's so interesting about thatis that we know the difference.
And it is so critically importantthat we lead with the connection
with the caring and compassion.
So I just want to say thank you.
And my world is betterfrom having met you.
And I hope that our audience hearsthat, as they listen to this podcast.
(37:03):
So as we wrap up,this has been Hope Starts With Us,
a podcast by NAMI,the National Alliance on Mental Illness.
If you are looking for mental healthresources, you are not alone.
To connect with the NAMI HelpLineand local resources, visit NAMI.org/help.
Text "NAMI" to 62640or dial 800-950-NAMI.
(37:27):
Or if you are experiencingan immediate suicide, substance use, or
mental health crisis, please call or text988 to speak with a trained support
specialist or visit 988lifeline.org.
I'm Dan Gillison, your host.
Thanks for listening. Be well.
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