February 11, 2026 • 35 mins
At this year’s Big Game, NAMI extended our partnership with Dan Marino’s Stay Healthy Zone and announced a new yearlong partnership with Off The Field NFL Wives Association. In this episode, NAMI CEO Daniel H. Gillison Jr. talks with President of Off The Field NFL Wives Association, Tenisha Patterson Brown. They discuss what led her to mental health advocacy, the unique experiences of NFL players and their spouses, caregiving for a loved one with mental health conditions, and more.
You can find additional episodes of this NAMI podcast and others at nami.org/podcast.
"Hope Starts With Us" is a podcast by NAMI, the National Alliance on Mental Illness. It is hosted by NAMI CEO Daniel H. Gillison, Jr.
Co-executive produced by Traci Coulter and Connor Larsen.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
You are more than what you do.
(00:03):
You are a whole person.
What do you like?
What's your passion?
What do you do off the fieldthat can translate into something
that's sustainable?
Welcome to Hope Starts with Us,a podcast by NAMI,
the National Alliance on Mental Illness.
I'm Dan Gillison, NAMI's CEO.
NAMI started this podcast becausewe believe that hope starts with us.
(00:26):
Hope starts with ustalking about mental health.
Hope starts with us making informationaccessible.
Hope starts with usproviding resources and practical advice.
Hope starts with us sharing our stories.
And finally, hopestarts with us breaking the stigma.
If you or a loved one is strugglingwith a mental health condition
(00:46):
and have been looking for hope.
We made this podcast for you.
Hope starts with all of us.
Hope is a collective.
We hope that each episode,with each conversation
brings you into that collective,so you know that you are not alone.
We are so fortunateto have this guest today with us, Tenisha
(01:07):
Patterson Brown, a businessand legal consultant and entrepreneur,
owner of a Tropical Smoothiefranchise and True
Vegan Creamery, co-authorof multiple books, philanthropist,
executive director of Every Brown BagFoundation,
and now President of OffThe Field NFL Wives Association.
(01:28):
NAMI's yearlong--new yearlong partnership with off
the field NFL Wives Associationto raise mental health awareness
kicked off partnership leading up to thebig game in San Francisco.
The kickoff includedthe Legacy and Lights Awards
Brunch, featuring a mental health panel,and the 25th annual Off The Field
Super Bowlcharity fashion show sponsored
(01:49):
by friends of NAMI and Lululemon,plus appearances on Radio Row
discussing the importance of mental healthawareness with television, radio,
and podcast personalities, and host.
Tenisha,thank you so much for joining our podcast.
And would you tell our listenersa little bit about Tenisha
(02:12):
and what led you to becominga mental health advocate and leader
of Off The Field NFL Wives Association?
Thank you so much for having me.
It is a pleasure. It is an honor.
This means so much for me and my familyand then also the NFL families
that I serve.
Being a part of the NFL family,it's a unique group.
(02:35):
And being a pro athlete's wife,is a unique position.
And when I say thatthere is a position of privilege, but
it is also a position of responsibility.
And we have a lot of peoplethat follow us, who listen to what we are,
you know, what we recommendand what we do, but also who watch us
and want to see us as human beings.
(02:57):
And so for me, one of the biggest thingsthat I push forward and why
I really wanted to lead off the field,one, because I recognized there was a gap
in what we needed.
And also elevating our members.
We are caregivers.
We are mothers.
We are wives.
We are daughters.
(03:18):
We are lawyers, we're doctors.
All the things.
And managing all of thiswhile managing our own wellness.
And so for me, looking at mental healthand looking at the whole person
and the holistic energyof the NFL family dynamic
from the husband and the wife and,and also the children,
(03:40):
this, having a mental healthpartner, was just so important.
We've seen so many instances wheremental health is the afterthought.
It's always about the physical, right?
The training, the nutrition.
But this is-- this is what we needfor our mental and emotional.
(04:00):
And so I'm very excitedabout the NAMI partnership for 2026
and for hopefully future years to come.
We're excited about it as well.
And I just want to say on behalf of NAMI,thank you for being such
an incredible partner.
And, we're extremely excitedabout collaborating with you.
We understand the role ofnot only being a caregiver,
(04:22):
but not getting lost in,and as the, as the
as significant partnerof a professional athlete.
As you mentioned,you know, managing your own wellness,
and also making sure that, you know,the children are well cared for.
It's very interestingabout our professional athletes
that we hold them up to this standardand we see them as the pro athlete.
(04:46):
It's what they do. It's not who they are.
And the partners get to see who they arewhen they're not on that field.
So thank you for what you do.
Thank you for looking at the whole person.
And thank youfor caring about your mental well-being
and that of the other NFL wivesand your, your, significant others who are
(05:08):
playing in the in the NFL.
Would love to back up a second and ask youbecause we have so many people that,
you know, I'msure there's not a day that doesn't go by,
you don't meet someone that is interestedabout sports management.
So would you tell us moreabout your experience in sports management
and what insights did that impart on youin terms of the mental health of athletes
and their support systems?
(05:33):
Well, I will kind of--I'll start back 20 years ago.
I will not age myself,but I will embrace it.
I love it.
I started working in sports,and I was in recruiting
for football and basketball,and I took it very seriously.
When a parent, a mom in particular,brought their
(05:53):
kids to school, and I promised themthat they would do
well, that I would take care of them,make sure they graduated,
make sure that they would be upstandinghuman beings.
And I saw them for who they wereand who they were going to be.
And I took it very--it was very personal for me.
(06:16):
I'm meeting with 17, 18-year-oldsmaking their life decision
that could honestly impact themfor the rest of their lives.
And so for me,when I looked at them as human beings
and not just a commodity,I saw that they needed more
than just playing time.
They needed more than a yes personto tell them that everything
(06:38):
that they were saying was right.
And so I became a big sister to everysingle recruit that I engaged with.
I made sure that they were going to class.
I made sure that they were doingthe things they were supposed to do.
If they needed advice, I gave it to them.
If I needed to feed them.
Now, that's no longerin NCAA compliance violation,
(06:59):
but at the time--there you have it.
And I took it very personal.
And so I did not go into college thinkingthat I was going to work in sports.
That was not the plan.
I had every intention of going inand being a doctor.
And then I realized very quicklythat I didn't have the stomach for it.
And, and so,I went into business management
(07:20):
and saying I'm going to just be a CEO.
That's where my--I was goingto be sitting where you're sitting. Right?
And thenthe love and passion for seeing the game,
to seeing the businessbehind a game, seeing the players,
I took it upon myselfto not only learn about recruiting
(07:42):
and the game itself, because I couldtell you anything about the game.
I read plays, I watched film of players.
I knew what a five star athlete look like.
Also even if he wasn't ratedas a five star,
I knew whether or nothe was going to be successful.
But I also did marketing and sponsorship.
(08:03):
I did game dayoperations, and I took it upon myself
to become so well-knowledgein the game of athletics.
Right, the career, that--cananyone tell me
what about a particular positionor a particular role?
(08:24):
I knew a lotabout a lot of different things.
And I took the advice of one of my mentorswho said to me.
I asked him, I said,why am I out here selling programs?
And he said, you need to learn everythingbecause that makes you more marketable.
Didn't realize that those same sponsorshipexperiences that he gave me in college
translates now with Off The Fieldand how I'm engaging with sponsors.
(08:48):
What are they like?
What are, you know, what are someprograming and things that we can,
you know, incorporate,but building out Off The Field.
And so I say specifically,when I started off
in sports, I decided in my mindI was going to be an agent.
And there was one womanand she was an agent for kickers.
(09:11):
And I said,I don't know if that's going to be my life
because I don't want someonecalling me at 4 o'clock in the morning
once I saw my husbandgoing through the process.
And then I said, you know what?
Let me do one up.
It's morethan what they're doing on the field.
I need to focus onwho they are going to be off the field,
because we all knowthe NFL is not for long.
(09:33):
So I took it upon myselfto create a business,
to create a platform to educating playerson, you are more than what you do.
You are a whole person.
What do you like?
What's your passion?
What do you do offthe field that can translate
into somethingthat can make you--that's sustainable?
(09:57):
So that is--I always say specifically,I do have a passion for women's
sports, girls in sports--to make, to learn at every corner,
every opportunity that you have,whether it's interning or shadowing
someone to learn.
But don't think that sportsmanagement is easy because it's not.
(10:18):
It is--everybody wants to work in sports, right?
And understand that, you know, when youwork in sports, you're going to be poor.
Let me just say that.
But it is also very rewarding.
And you learn so much.
So that is a round about of justhow I ended up being here.
(10:40):
God madethis role for me, I will say that.
Because I was not looking to be president,I will say that.
I just wanted to help.
And then since I've become president,my role is to really change
the narrative of what it means to be a proathlete's wife. Wow.
You know, you are where you aresupposed to be at the right time.
(11:03):
And, that is something that is importantto acknowledge.
You know, coming from your background,being a recruiter for basketball
and football athletes, to nowbeing the president of the organization.
Kudos to you.
And sportsmanagement is not for the faint of heart.
It is actually not for the faint of heart.
(11:24):
It looks good on the cover of a book, butonce you open it up, it's a lot of work.
And that's thesame thing with our athletes.
Because, you know, you to your pointof what you said,
as a recruiter and,you know, talking to the parents,
the mom or the dad or both parentsabout these young men, you are recruiting
or young athletes, excuse me.
You know,you said you saw them for who they were.
(11:46):
It's interestingyou say that because at NAMI,
we say we meet people where they are,not where we want them to be.
So, it's interestinghow this comes together.
So, you know, thank you for that.
And I want to ask you, in your work,you've discussed Tenisha,
what it means to care about players'development as men and businessmen
so that their careersas professional athletes
don't become their identities.
(12:08):
Why do you think that is so important?
It's critical because welive in a high risk career.
Your life could changewithin 30 seconds on the field.
(12:28):
And I speak from personal experience.
My husband was playing in a game,and he was on his way
to getting four sacks.
He was hot.
He hits the player,immediately dislocates his wrist.
He is out for the season.
Completely changedthe trajectory of his entire career.
(12:51):
And so understandingfundamentally-- and I saw
that also in college where you had thesefive star recruits come in
and they're supposed to be all the thingsand one moment,
one choice, minutes in time,change their entire lives.
And so every client that I work with,I operate in a space of,
(13:12):
whatever I know you will know.
I have no fear of you replacing mebecause it's not the knowledge
that you are paying for.
It is the relationship.
It's the encouragement.
It's the growth. It's the support.
Because every day my main focusis speaking life into anybody
(13:36):
that I engage with,because I feel like that is my ministry.
But when I educate my clients,I always say to them,
I don't want you to go into a room,into a business meeting
because you have all the money and don'tknow what is happening in the meeting.
Don'tsit back and let someone speak for you.
You need to be able to knowwhat they're talking about,
(13:58):
who they're talking about,what's going on, because
it's not beneficial to you in the long runto be oblivious to what's happening.
So I take the time.
I break it down.
I don't speak legalese to them.
I break it downand I say, here is a strategy
based off of what you want to do.
Now, you help me work through whatyou want to do because it's a process.
(14:22):
There's learning. It'sjust like law school, right?
You're learning how to think.
And I always hold them outas I'm your coach.
Let me coach you. Here's a playbook.
I want you to learn the playbook.
Don't just come over and thinkthat I'm going to give you the answers.
I want you to learn the playbook.
I'm going to create.
You tell me what you want to do.
I'm going to create the playbook for you.
(14:43):
And I want to be able to executeand coach you through this process.
And my players-- and they leave, right?
But they always come backwhen they need to go into the next level
because they understand,I want to leave them better off
like than where I found them.
And I think a lot of timesagents,
(15:03):
managers, people who work with athleteswant to cripple them
so that they can keep a job.
And that's not how I operate.
You're tryingto really be very transparent
and also be able to build their competencyso they can go in that room
feeling very comfortable and knowledgeableand not just a postage stamp.
(15:26):
That's really cool.
Thank you for sharing thatand your intentionality in that.
And, I wanted to take youinto the mental piece for a second.
Family members are often on the frontlinesof supporting a loved one's
mental health.
I mean, they're clearly on the frontlines.
The new NAMI Family Caregiver HelpLinewas created exactly for that reason.
(15:47):
For NFL wives,supporting their husbands' mental health
can require resilience and strengthin the face of challenging transitions
and high pressure moments.
Kind of likewhen you were mentioning your husband
and this unexpected wrist injurythat changed the trajectory of his year.
I mean, he's getting sacks, he's gettingthe numbers, he's getting the stats.
And then all of a suddenthere's this challenging transition.
(16:10):
What advice do you have forother NFL wives, or even for our listeners
at home who may be caregiversfor someone in their own family?
I always use--I have an analogy that I use
that kind of helps people processwhere when you see them.
And I always compare athletesto superheroes, right?
(16:32):
In particular Iron Manand I say this-- I'm a Marvel fan,
so let me just throw that out there.
And I say that for a reason.
Iron Man, if you are anybodywho's familiar with him,
has this, his suit that he wearsand that suit and that protective armor
makes him larger than life.
(16:53):
Fans love him.
They see him.
Oh, my gosh, they're over the moon.
No one can touch him, right?
If you compare itwhen he takes off that suit,
he is a very sensitiveman, complex man that is has all
of these things, right, he'sliving with and grappling with.
(17:20):
And it's the same with players.
On game day, they put on the armor.
They are about 2 to 3 inches talleronce they put their cleats on, right?
They weigh a lot more.
They have this armor,these helmets, the lights,
all the things that make them superheroes.
The fans hyping them upand they become these characters
(17:42):
that they are in this rolefor years, decades,
even if for those who have started playingwhen they were children.
They take it offor it's taken away from them
because they retireor they have a season injury,
a career-ending injury, or whateverthe thing may be,
and they don't know how to find themselvesin between.
(18:04):
And then you as wives,depending on the season
in which you came into their livesor even, you know, family members, right?
You don't know howthey're going to respond because this
has been their identity for so long.
So then now you are hit withthis person is really a different person.
They are settling into who they areoutside of the sport,
(18:27):
and it happens across every sport,I will say.
But my advice to them is to be patient,to not compare
your person, right, to someone else,to understand that it is a journey right?
That they are in a transformationlike a butterfly, right?
(18:48):
Because that's all they've known.
But also having clear boundariesand understanding the need to seek help.
It's okay if you cannot do it alone.
Don't ignore the signs of depression,because what I've seen,
and I'm not a clinician,but what I've seen is that
the transition is very difficult,not just for the players.
(19:10):
And even if you're going from teamto team, it doesn't matter.
It is for the families, it'sthe children, it's the wives.
To just be patient and be okay withseeking help and find that sisterhood.
And that's why OffThe Field is so important.
I will tell you that one of the thingsthat drove me to creating OTF Care,
(19:30):
which is our arm where we carespecifically for our members,
was becausewe had members who their children
were on the brinkof having a mental breakdown.
They didn't know their husbandshad completely checked out.
They're doing it by themselves.
They're running the soccer.
They're, you know,making sure the house is taken care of.
(19:54):
They're working.
And it's a separationand that burden on the wife, right?
Or the significant other.
And they're--the care is always gearedtowards the men and never at the women.
And so understandingthat we had to do something about it.
And that's why we created OTF Cares.
And so that'swhere we pour into our members.
(20:15):
We have, you know, one of our,our director of OTF Cares
actually worked with NAMIbefore, in her previous time.
And she takes the callsand she walks them through, and she serves
as a support for our membersto help them through the process.
But I would say lean in on your sistersbecause we are here.
(20:40):
And also the resourcesthat we now have available.
Thanks to you all for really being ableto provide those things
for when we didn't have an option to call.
Now we have that option.
Well, we are so appreciative.
And you mentioned OTF Cares andthank you for that
because it is about community.
It is about caring.
(21:00):
We say something at NAMI,people don't care how much you know
until they know how much you care.
So thank you for setting that up.
And as we're talking havingthis conversation, it brings to mind
that you know that NFL athlete, it'snot just what they do.
It is who they are.
Because you know,no matter whether they move teams or not,
(21:21):
to your point,they're still, you know, recognized as a
NFL football player.
And many timesthey're recognized in public
even when they're out with their families.
And it's just-- and it becomes rote.
And then all of a sudden,one day it's over.
And it's like,was that what I did?
Or was it who I was?
(21:43):
And I've even seen that with peoplein the corporate environment
where they've been working somewhereand had been very successful,
matriculated through.
And then after 20 years,the time has changed
and they're no longer there.
And all of a sudden they're like,who am I?
So let me ask you this.
What is your-- Tenisha,what's your favorite part of raising
(22:05):
mental health awareness in the NFL?
I love the thought--well, just really pouring back into our
members, our NFL families,erasing this stigma of
that you can't seek help because somehow,some way that makes you weak.
(22:29):
You are a championif you are talking about the holistic,
you know, wellness because,that's just as important.
If your mind is not right,then nothing else is going to be right.
And I also,I don't want to lose another player.
I don't.
(22:50):
And that's just the bottom line.
And it pains me to see someonewho is hurting so badly, and people deny
you are not hurtingbecause you have all these things, right?
And someone like myself,who is such a high achiever,
(23:10):
and understanding the level of excellencein which you have to operate on in
order to be that type of an athlete,I understand completely how heavy that is.
A lot of my board members are formercollegiate athletes.
One of them actually,was this close to the Olympics,
(23:30):
being Olympianand to understand that they understand
because they're marriedto these high level athletes.
And then they were high level athletes.
They went through the transition as well.
This has been my identity for 15,20 years.
What am I doing?
(23:51):
And then not only that,now my whole life is being absorbed
into my spouse's lifeto where I'm just a wife, right?
That's the narrative in which--that'swhat I mean
where it's going away from the--changingthat narrative is
because I am, for years,I was viewed as Everette Brown's wife,
(24:13):
despite all of the things, right?
And so for me,my favorite part is really as
I just pull it all backtogether, is really bringing awareness,
creating a shift, pushing people forwardand to having that holistic care
and just being fully transparent.
(24:33):
If you read any of my books,it would all--I'm an open book.
I'm fully transparent about lifebecause I think you have to be that way.
In order for peopleto fully grow and understand who you are.
And it helps so many people.
So I am going to speak about it.
I'm going to encourage peopleto make it a part of your whole wellness.
(24:59):
When you talk about self-care,that should be a top three,
if not the first.
Self-care. Yep, yep.
So I wanted to ask you something else.
And, we have a couple of them,retired NFL players that are ambassadors.
I was on Radio Row one yearwith a couple of these gentlemen
and one of the young men, and I call themyoung because they retired at 30.
(25:22):
Even before they turned 30.
So, you know,these are these are young men, and they're
out of the NFL as you as you mentioned.
NFL, not for long.
So, one of the questionsor one of the statements
that one of the athletesmade in the interview says,
you know, I want to take you back to "didyou know?" and there's some things
that you guys don't knowabout the life of that NFL player.
(25:44):
Did you know thatwhen we go into the locker room,
there's a list of guysthat are coming out,
if we're hurt, to try out for our positionevery week?
They're bringing peoplewho come out for our position.
You guys don't see that.
You don't know that.
And that is a stressor.
That is--that is anxiety.
Yes, you have a contract,but someone is playing for your--
(26:05):
someone is practicing,trying out for your position every week.
So I said that to saythat was very revealing for me.
More important,it was adding to the conversation
about the anxiety and the stressof being that professional athlete.
What don't people know about mentalhealth, the lives of NFL players,
(26:27):
and their families that you wishthat the general public knew?
I would say,foremost, that we are regular people.
It just so happens that our husbands playfootball that is on a national stage.
(26:47):
Well, international on stage now.
But we are regular people.
We have the same struggles.
You know,we are in the sandwich generation.
Some of us, we're taking care of parentsand taking care of children.
We have issues where we strugglewith creating a family, like my husband
and I and our infertility strugglesand all that.
(27:10):
It doesn't matter.
We are regular peoplewith regular struggles.
And I think sometimes,and often people say, well,
you have this luxury of living this way.
And we do, right?
And we're so grateful for the opportunity.
But we also have regular human beingsand we have feelings and we have anxiety.
(27:32):
We have stressors.
And it's amplifiedbecause we are in a public space,
a public platform.
So it's even more and then,even as we look at our children now,
we have a lot of memberswho their kids play collegiate sports
and they're dealing with NILand all of that.
That's a whole other level of stress,where you're trying to--
(27:54):
how do you protect your childand shield them from all of these things,
but also allow them to monetizewhat they're doing?
Because that'swhat you want to for yourself
if you were collegiate athleteand for your husband.
And so it's a lot.
And I think just people understanding thatwe are just regular people.
(28:14):
Yeah. It's real.
It is. It's real.
And you know, you're competing as--you're competing in your field,
and competition looks different,but it's still competition.
And you gotta bring your bestall the time.
And then what happens when you,when you go home and, you know,
what happens when the music stops.
(28:35):
And I was thinking about you when youmentioned that you were a recruiter
for football and for basketballand football in college.
And I was thinking about--Iwrote down here one of my notes, NIL,
because I would believe that recruitingtoday would be so different with NIL.
I would just venture to saythat would have been such
a different dynamic for you as a recruiterof young people to come to universities.
(29:01):
I will tell you this.
I have been a proponent for NIL beforeit was even a thing.
Back when I was doing recruiting, Isaw first hand
that you had players who had no food.
I mean, that was literally,whatever they got from the cafeteria
was the food they were wanting to eat,and that was it.
(29:25):
And for me, I said,how can I see these universities
making billionsand you have players that have no food?
And that didn't math to me.
The math was not mathing.
And I was like, hey,I feel like they need to get paid.
No one was listening to me at the time.
(29:45):
However, I was a champion for NILand do I believe there needs
to be some level of regulatory?
I mean, that's the lawyer in me.
Yes, I do think there needsto be something to balance it out,
because I think the deadly combinationof NIL and Transfer Portal leaves
a lot of players like in the mix.
Right?
(30:06):
And unprotected.
And that's a whole other conversationthat we can talk about for hours.
But I think when you take it intoconsideration how young these players are,
and this is why I bring it upwhen it comes to the mental health space,
you have a 17-year-old going froma small town, population 300,
(30:29):
you know, barely making ends meet, to nowthat 17-year-old transcends into making
$6 million a year.
You are on everything.
You have expectations.
You're like--every decision is made uponwhat's going to happen to the university
level.
(30:50):
It's a heavy,heavy load for a 17 year old.
And so, for me,I think it's going to be interesting
to see how this, the future,you know, these particular athletes
that are coming up in NIL world,excuse me,
and their needs that they're going to havefor the support
and the mental health supportand how we pour into them,
(31:11):
because I think it'sgoing to be, it's going to be interesting,
I should say that.
And then looking at California athletes,because they're younger.
You can get NILat very young age in California.
You have some kids that are 12 years oldwith 100,000 followers.
That's heavy. That is heavy.
(31:31):
And you know, what does that look likefor them in in their later years?
So this is all about, you know,the full athlete.
And the full family in many cases.
So there's, there's more to discuss there,more to actually build out.
(31:51):
So this is, this is wonderful.
And, I am so happythat we're having this conversation.
And what we do to initiate at the end is,we ask each of our podcast
guest one big kind of provoking question.
The world can be and is a difficult place,and sometimes it can be hard
(32:12):
to hold on to hope.
That's why each episodewe dedicate the last couple of minutes
of our podcast to a special segment calledHold On to Hope.
So here's the millio (32:25):
What helps you, Tenisha, hold on to hope?
My daughter.
My daughter is the living form.
I always sayshe is my heart and soul in living form.
I always say that.
I-- my husband andI, it took us five years to get her.
(32:47):
A lot of loss.
A lot of struggles that, honestly,we probably needed NAMI during that time.
Full transparency.
But when I look at her face,I recognize that
there's always sunshine in the morning.
And she is everything.
(33:11):
I can't have prayed for a better child.
And so she's the best parts,I always say, of her dad and I.
And, so when I see, like, anytimeI think that something is not, "Oh,
my gosh, it's so hard right now,"but I will go through that journey
a million times again to get her.
Congratulations.
(33:31):
Thank you.
Your journey was incredibly valuableto who you are now.
And as a mom, and I would tell you that,you know,
the word that I melt is when my daughtersays, "dad." That's just--
and my wife always says, if she says it.
And I'm like, yeah, that. Yeah.
That's it. Yeah.
(33:53):
Yeah. When she says it.
So, I understand. So thank you.
You're a true girl's dad. Straight up.
No joke.
You know,this has been Hope Starts With Us,
a podcast by NAMI,the National Alliance on Mental Illness.
If you're looking for mental healthresources, you're not alone.
To connect with the NAMI HelpLine and findlocal resources, visit NAMI.org/help.
(34:15):
Text 'NAMI' to 62640 ordial (800)-950-NAMI (6264).
Or if you are a caregiver for someoneexperiencing mental health conditions,
the new NAMI Family CaregiverHelpLine is here to support you.
Connect with the NAMI FamilyCaregiver HelpLine by dialing
1-800-950-NAMI (6264) and press "4"to connect with a skilled family
(34:38):
caregiver helpline specialist.
Or you can text family to 62640.
Or if you are experiencingan immediate suicide, substance
use, or mental health crisis,please call or text 988
to speak with a trained supportspecialist or visit 988lifeline.org.
(34:59):
I'm Dan Gillison, your host.
Thanks for listening and be well.
You are more than what you do.
(00:03):
You are a whole person.
What do you like?
What's your passion?
What do you do off the fieldthat can translate into something
that's sustainable?
Welcome to Hope Starts with Us,a podcast by NAMI,
the National Alliance on Mental Illness.
I'm Dan Gillison, NAMI's CEO.
NAMI started this podcast becausewe believe that hope starts with us.
(00:26):
Hope starts with ustalking about mental health.
Hope starts with us making informationaccessible.
Hope starts with usproviding resources and practical advice.
Hope starts with us sharing our stories.
And finally, hopestarts with us breaking the stigma.
If you or a loved one is strugglingwith a mental health condition
(00:46):
and have been looking for hope.
We made this podcast for you.
Hope starts with all of us.
Hope is a collective.
We hope that each episode,with each conversation
brings you into that collective,so you know that you are not alone.
We are so fortunateto have this guest today with us, Tenisha
(01:07):
Patterson Brown, a businessand legal consultant and entrepreneur,
owner of a Tropical Smoothiefranchise and True
Vegan Creamery, co-authorof multiple books, philanthropist,
executive director of Every Brown BagFoundation,
and now President of OffThe Field NFL Wives Association.
(01:28):
NAMI's yearlong--new yearlong partnership with off
the field NFL Wives Associationto raise mental health awareness
kicked off partnership leading up to thebig game in San Francisco.
The kickoff includedthe Legacy and Lights Awards
Brunch, featuring a mental health panel,and the 25th annual Off The Field
Super Bowlcharity fashion show sponsored
(01:49):
by friends of NAMI and Lululemon,plus appearances on Radio Row
discussing the importance of mental healthawareness with television, radio,
and podcast personalities, and host.
Tenisha,thank you so much for joining our podcast.
And would you tell our listenersa little bit about Tenisha
(02:12):
and what led you to becominga mental health advocate and leader
of Off The Field NFL Wives Association?
Thank you so much for having me.
It is a pleasure. It is an honor.
This means so much for me and my familyand then also the NFL families
that I serve.
Being a part of the NFL family,it's a unique group.
(02:35):
And being a pro athlete's wife,is a unique position.
And when I say thatthere is a position of privilege, but
it is also a position of responsibility.
And we have a lot of peoplethat follow us, who listen to what we are,
you know, what we recommendand what we do, but also who watch us
and want to see us as human beings.
(02:57):
And so for me, one of the biggest thingsthat I push forward and why
I really wanted to lead off the field,one, because I recognized there was a gap
in what we needed.
And also elevating our members.
We are caregivers.
We are mothers.
We are wives.
We are daughters.
(03:18):
We are lawyers, we're doctors.
All the things.
And managing all of thiswhile managing our own wellness.
And so for me, looking at mental healthand looking at the whole person
and the holistic energyof the NFL family dynamic
from the husband and the wife and,and also the children,
(03:40):
this, having a mental healthpartner, was just so important.
We've seen so many instances wheremental health is the afterthought.
It's always about the physical, right?
The training, the nutrition.
But this is-- this is what we needfor our mental and emotional.
(04:00):
And so I'm very excitedabout the NAMI partnership for 2026
and for hopefully future years to come.
We're excited about it as well.
And I just want to say on behalf of NAMI,thank you for being such
an incredible partner.
And, we're extremely excitedabout collaborating with you.
We understand the role ofnot only being a caregiver,
(04:22):
but not getting lost in,and as the, as the
as significant partnerof a professional athlete.
As you mentioned,you know, managing your own wellness,
and also making sure that, you know,the children are well cared for.
It's very interestingabout our professional athletes
that we hold them up to this standardand we see them as the pro athlete.
(04:46):
It's what they do. It's not who they are.
And the partners get to see who they arewhen they're not on that field.
So thank you for what you do.
Thank you for looking at the whole person.
And thank youfor caring about your mental well-being
and that of the other NFL wivesand your, your, significant others who are
(05:08):
playing in the in the NFL.
Would love to back up a second and ask youbecause we have so many people that,
you know, I'msure there's not a day that doesn't go by,
you don't meet someone that is interestedabout sports management.
So would you tell us moreabout your experience in sports management
and what insights did that impart on youin terms of the mental health of athletes
and their support systems?
(05:33):
Well, I will kind of--I'll start back 20 years ago.
I will not age myself,but I will embrace it.
I love it.
I started working in sports,and I was in recruiting
for football and basketball,and I took it very seriously.
When a parent, a mom in particular,brought their
(05:53):
kids to school, and I promised themthat they would do
well, that I would take care of them,make sure they graduated,
make sure that they would be upstandinghuman beings.
And I saw them for who they wereand who they were going to be.
And I took it very--it was very personal for me.
(06:16):
I'm meeting with 17, 18-year-oldsmaking their life decision
that could honestly impact themfor the rest of their lives.
And so for me,when I looked at them as human beings
and not just a commodity,I saw that they needed more
than just playing time.
They needed more than a yes personto tell them that everything
(06:38):
that they were saying was right.
And so I became a big sister to everysingle recruit that I engaged with.
I made sure that they were going to class.
I made sure that they were doingthe things they were supposed to do.
If they needed advice, I gave it to them.
If I needed to feed them.
Now, that's no longerin NCAA compliance violation,
(06:59):
but at the time--there you have it.
And I took it very personal.
And so I did not go into college thinkingthat I was going to work in sports.
That was not the plan.
I had every intention of going inand being a doctor.
And then I realized very quicklythat I didn't have the stomach for it.
And, and so,I went into business management
(07:20):
and saying I'm going to just be a CEO.
That's where my--I was goingto be sitting where you're sitting. Right?
And thenthe love and passion for seeing the game,
to seeing the businessbehind a game, seeing the players,
I took it upon myselfto not only learn about recruiting
(07:42):
and the game itself, because I couldtell you anything about the game.
I read plays, I watched film of players.
I knew what a five star athlete look like.
Also even if he wasn't ratedas a five star,
I knew whether or nothe was going to be successful.
But I also did marketing and sponsorship.
(08:03):
I did game dayoperations, and I took it upon myself
to become so well-knowledgein the game of athletics.
Right, the career, that--cananyone tell me
what about a particular positionor a particular role?
(08:24):
I knew a lotabout a lot of different things.
And I took the advice of one of my mentorswho said to me.
I asked him, I said,why am I out here selling programs?
And he said, you need to learn everythingbecause that makes you more marketable.
Didn't realize that those same sponsorshipexperiences that he gave me in college
translates now with Off The Fieldand how I'm engaging with sponsors.
(08:48):
What are they like?
What are, you know, what are someprograming and things that we can,
you know, incorporate,but building out Off The Field.
And so I say specifically,when I started off
in sports, I decided in my mindI was going to be an agent.
And there was one womanand she was an agent for kickers.
(09:11):
And I said,I don't know if that's going to be my life
because I don't want someonecalling me at 4 o'clock in the morning
once I saw my husbandgoing through the process.
And then I said, you know what?
Let me do one up.
It's morethan what they're doing on the field.
I need to focus onwho they are going to be off the field,
because we all knowthe NFL is not for long.
(09:33):
So I took it upon myselfto create a business,
to create a platform to educating playerson, you are more than what you do.
You are a whole person.
What do you like?
What's your passion?
What do you do offthe field that can translate
into somethingthat can make you--that's sustainable?
(09:57):
So that is--I always say specifically,I do have a passion for women's
sports, girls in sports--to make, to learn at every corner,
every opportunity that you have,whether it's interning or shadowing
someone to learn.
But don't think that sportsmanagement is easy because it's not.
(10:18):
It is--everybody wants to work in sports, right?
And understand that, you know, when youwork in sports, you're going to be poor.
Let me just say that.
But it is also very rewarding.
And you learn so much.
So that is a round about of justhow I ended up being here.
(10:40):
God madethis role for me, I will say that.
Because I was not looking to be president,I will say that.
I just wanted to help.
And then since I've become president,my role is to really change
the narrative of what it means to be a proathlete's wife. Wow.
You know, you are where you aresupposed to be at the right time.
(11:03):
And, that is something that is importantto acknowledge.
You know, coming from your background,being a recruiter for basketball
and football athletes, to nowbeing the president of the organization.
Kudos to you.
And sportsmanagement is not for the faint of heart.
It is actually not for the faint of heart.
(11:24):
It looks good on the cover of a book, butonce you open it up, it's a lot of work.
And that's thesame thing with our athletes.
Because, you know, you to your pointof what you said,
as a recruiter and,you know, talking to the parents,
the mom or the dad or both parentsabout these young men, you are recruiting
or young athletes, excuse me.
You know,you said you saw them for who they were.
(11:46):
It's interestingyou say that because at NAMI,
we say we meet people where they are,not where we want them to be.
So, it's interestinghow this comes together.
So, you know, thank you for that.
And I want to ask you, in your work,you've discussed Tenisha,
what it means to care about players'development as men and businessmen
so that their careersas professional athletes
don't become their identities.
(12:08):
Why do you think that is so important?
It's critical because welive in a high risk career.
Your life could changewithin 30 seconds on the field.
(12:28):
And I speak from personal experience.
My husband was playing in a game,and he was on his way
to getting four sacks.
He was hot.
He hits the player,immediately dislocates his wrist.
He is out for the season.
Completely changedthe trajectory of his entire career.
(12:51):
And so understandingfundamentally-- and I saw
that also in college where you had thesefive star recruits come in
and they're supposed to be all the thingsand one moment,
one choice, minutes in time,change their entire lives.
And so every client that I work with,I operate in a space of,
(13:12):
whatever I know you will know.
I have no fear of you replacing mebecause it's not the knowledge
that you are paying for.
It is the relationship.
It's the encouragement.
It's the growth. It's the support.
Because every day my main focusis speaking life into anybody
(13:36):
that I engage with,because I feel like that is my ministry.
But when I educate my clients,I always say to them,
I don't want you to go into a room,into a business meeting
because you have all the money and don'tknow what is happening in the meeting.
Don'tsit back and let someone speak for you.
You need to be able to knowwhat they're talking about,
(13:58):
who they're talking about,what's going on, because
it's not beneficial to you in the long runto be oblivious to what's happening.
So I take the time.
I break it down.
I don't speak legalese to them.
I break it downand I say, here is a strategy
based off of what you want to do.
Now, you help me work through whatyou want to do because it's a process.
(14:22):
There's learning. It'sjust like law school, right?
You're learning how to think.
And I always hold them outas I'm your coach.
Let me coach you. Here's a playbook.
I want you to learn the playbook.
Don't just come over and thinkthat I'm going to give you the answers.
I want you to learn the playbook.
I'm going to create.
You tell me what you want to do.
I'm going to create the playbook for you.
(14:43):
And I want to be able to executeand coach you through this process.
And my players-- and they leave, right?
But they always come backwhen they need to go into the next level
because they understand,I want to leave them better off
like than where I found them.
And I think a lot of timesagents,
(15:03):
managers, people who work with athleteswant to cripple them
so that they can keep a job.
And that's not how I operate.
You're tryingto really be very transparent
and also be able to build their competencyso they can go in that room
feeling very comfortable and knowledgeableand not just a postage stamp.
(15:26):
That's really cool.
Thank you for sharing thatand your intentionality in that.
And, I wanted to take youinto the mental piece for a second.
Family members are often on the frontlinesof supporting a loved one's
mental health.
I mean, they're clearly on the frontlines.
The new NAMI Family Caregiver HelpLinewas created exactly for that reason.
(15:47):
For NFL wives,supporting their husbands' mental health
can require resilience and strengthin the face of challenging transitions
and high pressure moments.
Kind of likewhen you were mentioning your husband
and this unexpected wrist injurythat changed the trajectory of his year.
I mean, he's getting sacks, he's gettingthe numbers, he's getting the stats.
And then all of a suddenthere's this challenging transition.
(16:10):
What advice do you have forother NFL wives, or even for our listeners
at home who may be caregiversfor someone in their own family?
I always use--I have an analogy that I use
that kind of helps people processwhere when you see them.
And I always compare athletesto superheroes, right?
(16:32):
In particular Iron Manand I say this-- I'm a Marvel fan,
so let me just throw that out there.
And I say that for a reason.
Iron Man, if you are anybodywho's familiar with him,
has this, his suit that he wearsand that suit and that protective armor
makes him larger than life.
(16:53):
Fans love him.
They see him.
Oh, my gosh, they're over the moon.
No one can touch him, right?
If you compare itwhen he takes off that suit,
he is a very sensitiveman, complex man that is has all
of these things, right, he'sliving with and grappling with.
(17:20):
And it's the same with players.
On game day, they put on the armor.
They are about 2 to 3 inches talleronce they put their cleats on, right?
They weigh a lot more.
They have this armor,these helmets, the lights,
all the things that make them superheroes.
The fans hyping them upand they become these characters
(17:42):
that they are in this rolefor years, decades,
even if for those who have started playingwhen they were children.
They take it offor it's taken away from them
because they retireor they have a season injury,
a career-ending injury, or whateverthe thing may be,
and they don't know how to find themselvesin between.
(18:04):
And then you as wives,depending on the season
in which you came into their livesor even, you know, family members, right?
You don't know howthey're going to respond because this
has been their identity for so long.
So then now you are hit withthis person is really a different person.
They are settling into who they areoutside of the sport,
(18:27):
and it happens across every sport,I will say.
But my advice to them is to be patient,to not compare
your person, right, to someone else,to understand that it is a journey right?
That they are in a transformationlike a butterfly, right?
(18:48):
Because that's all they've known.
But also having clear boundariesand understanding the need to seek help.
It's okay if you cannot do it alone.
Don't ignore the signs of depression,because what I've seen,
and I'm not a clinician,but what I've seen is that
the transition is very difficult,not just for the players.
(19:10):
And even if you're going from teamto team, it doesn't matter.
It is for the families, it'sthe children, it's the wives.
To just be patient and be okay withseeking help and find that sisterhood.
And that's why OffThe Field is so important.
I will tell you that one of the thingsthat drove me to creating OTF Care,
(19:30):
which is our arm where we carespecifically for our members,
was becausewe had members who their children
were on the brinkof having a mental breakdown.
They didn't know their husbandshad completely checked out.
They're doing it by themselves.
They're running the soccer.
They're, you know,making sure the house is taken care of.
(19:54):
They're working.
And it's a separationand that burden on the wife, right?
Or the significant other.
And they're--the care is always gearedtowards the men and never at the women.
And so understandingthat we had to do something about it.
And that's why we created OTF Cares.
And so that'swhere we pour into our members.
(20:15):
We have, you know, one of our,our director of OTF Cares
actually worked with NAMIbefore, in her previous time.
And she takes the callsand she walks them through, and she serves
as a support for our membersto help them through the process.
But I would say lean in on your sistersbecause we are here.
(20:40):
And also the resourcesthat we now have available.
Thanks to you all for really being ableto provide those things
for when we didn't have an option to call.
Now we have that option.
Well, we are so appreciative.
And you mentioned OTF Cares andthank you for that
because it is about community.
It is about caring.
(21:00):
We say something at NAMI,people don't care how much you know
until they know how much you care.
So thank you for setting that up.
And as we're talking havingthis conversation, it brings to mind
that you know that NFL athlete, it'snot just what they do.
It is who they are.
Because you know,no matter whether they move teams or not,
(21:21):
to your point,they're still, you know, recognized as a
NFL football player.
And many timesthey're recognized in public
even when they're out with their families.
And it's just-- and it becomes rote.
And then all of a sudden,one day it's over.
And it's like,was that what I did?
Or was it who I was?
(21:43):
And I've even seen that with peoplein the corporate environment
where they've been working somewhereand had been very successful,
matriculated through.
And then after 20 years,the time has changed
and they're no longer there.
And all of a sudden they're like,who am I?
So let me ask you this.
What is your-- Tenisha,what's your favorite part of raising
(22:05):
mental health awareness in the NFL?
I love the thought--well, just really pouring back into our
members, our NFL families,erasing this stigma of
that you can't seek help because somehow,some way that makes you weak.
(22:29):
You are a championif you are talking about the holistic,
you know, wellness because,that's just as important.
If your mind is not right,then nothing else is going to be right.
And I also,I don't want to lose another player.
I don't.
(22:50):
And that's just the bottom line.
And it pains me to see someonewho is hurting so badly, and people deny
you are not hurtingbecause you have all these things, right?
And someone like myself,who is such a high achiever,
(23:10):
and understanding the level of excellencein which you have to operate on in
order to be that type of an athlete,I understand completely how heavy that is.
A lot of my board members are formercollegiate athletes.
One of them actually,was this close to the Olympics,
(23:30):
being Olympianand to understand that they understand
because they're marriedto these high level athletes.
And then they were high level athletes.
They went through the transition as well.
This has been my identity for 15,20 years.
What am I doing?
(23:51):
And then not only that,now my whole life is being absorbed
into my spouse's lifeto where I'm just a wife, right?
That's the narrative in which--that'swhat I mean
where it's going away from the--changingthat narrative is
because I am, for years,I was viewed as Everette Brown's wife,
(24:13):
despite all of the things, right?
And so for me,my favorite part is really as
I just pull it all backtogether, is really bringing awareness,
creating a shift, pushing people forwardand to having that holistic care
and just being fully transparent.
(24:33):
If you read any of my books,it would all--I'm an open book.
I'm fully transparent about lifebecause I think you have to be that way.
In order for peopleto fully grow and understand who you are.
And it helps so many people.
So I am going to speak about it.
I'm going to encourage peopleto make it a part of your whole wellness.
(24:59):
When you talk about self-care,that should be a top three,
if not the first.
Self-care. Yep, yep.
So I wanted to ask you something else.
And, we have a couple of them,retired NFL players that are ambassadors.
I was on Radio Row one yearwith a couple of these gentlemen
and one of the young men, and I call themyoung because they retired at 30.
(25:22):
Even before they turned 30.
So, you know,these are these are young men, and they're
out of the NFL as you as you mentioned.
NFL, not for long.
So, one of the questionsor one of the statements
that one of the athletesmade in the interview says,
you know, I want to take you back to "didyou know?" and there's some things
that you guys don't knowabout the life of that NFL player.
(25:44):
Did you know thatwhen we go into the locker room,
there's a list of guysthat are coming out,
if we're hurt, to try out for our positionevery week?
They're bringing peoplewho come out for our position.
You guys don't see that.
You don't know that.
And that is a stressor.
That is--that is anxiety.
Yes, you have a contract,but someone is playing for your--
(26:05):
someone is practicing,trying out for your position every week.
So I said that to saythat was very revealing for me.
More important,it was adding to the conversation
about the anxiety and the stressof being that professional athlete.
What don't people know about mentalhealth, the lives of NFL players,
(26:27):
and their families that you wishthat the general public knew?
I would say,foremost, that we are regular people.
It just so happens that our husbands playfootball that is on a national stage.
(26:47):
Well, international on stage now.
But we are regular people.
We have the same struggles.
You know,we are in the sandwich generation.
Some of us, we're taking care of parentsand taking care of children.
We have issues where we strugglewith creating a family, like my husband
and I and our infertility strugglesand all that.
(27:10):
It doesn't matter.
We are regular peoplewith regular struggles.
And I think sometimes,and often people say, well,
you have this luxury of living this way.
And we do, right?
And we're so grateful for the opportunity.
But we also have regular human beingsand we have feelings and we have anxiety.
(27:32):
We have stressors.
And it's amplifiedbecause we are in a public space,
a public platform.
So it's even more and then,even as we look at our children now,
we have a lot of memberswho their kids play collegiate sports
and they're dealing with NILand all of that.
That's a whole other level of stress,where you're trying to--
(27:54):
how do you protect your childand shield them from all of these things,
but also allow them to monetizewhat they're doing?
Because that'swhat you want to for yourself
if you were collegiate athleteand for your husband.
And so it's a lot.
And I think just people understanding thatwe are just regular people.
(28:14):
Yeah. It's real.
It is. It's real.
And you know, you're competing as--you're competing in your field,
and competition looks different,but it's still competition.
And you gotta bring your bestall the time.
And then what happens when you,when you go home and, you know,
what happens when the music stops.
(28:35):
And I was thinking about you when youmentioned that you were a recruiter
for football and for basketballand football in college.
And I was thinking about--Iwrote down here one of my notes, NIL,
because I would believe that recruitingtoday would be so different with NIL.
I would just venture to saythat would have been such
a different dynamic for you as a recruiterof young people to come to universities.
(29:01):
I will tell you this.
I have been a proponent for NIL beforeit was even a thing.
Back when I was doing recruiting, Isaw first hand
that you had players who had no food.
I mean, that was literally,whatever they got from the cafeteria
was the food they were wanting to eat,and that was it.
(29:25):
And for me, I said,how can I see these universities
making billionsand you have players that have no food?
And that didn't math to me.
The math was not mathing.
And I was like, hey,I feel like they need to get paid.
No one was listening to me at the time.
(29:45):
However, I was a champion for NILand do I believe there needs
to be some level of regulatory?
I mean, that's the lawyer in me.
Yes, I do think there needsto be something to balance it out,
because I think the deadly combinationof NIL and Transfer Portal leaves
a lot of players like in the mix.
Right?
(30:06):
And unprotected.
And that's a whole other conversationthat we can talk about for hours.
But I think when you take it intoconsideration how young these players are,
and this is why I bring it upwhen it comes to the mental health space,
you have a 17-year-old going froma small town, population 300,
(30:29):
you know, barely making ends meet, to nowthat 17-year-old transcends into making
$6 million a year.
You are on everything.
You have expectations.
You're like--every decision is made uponwhat's going to happen to the university
level.
(30:50):
It's a heavy,heavy load for a 17 year old.
And so, for me,I think it's going to be interesting
to see how this, the future,you know, these particular athletes
that are coming up in NIL world,excuse me,
and their needs that they're going to havefor the support
and the mental health supportand how we pour into them,
(31:11):
because I think it'sgoing to be, it's going to be interesting,
I should say that.
And then looking at California athletes,because they're younger.
You can get NILat very young age in California.
You have some kids that are 12 years oldwith 100,000 followers.
That's heavy. That is heavy.
(31:31):
And you know, what does that look likefor them in in their later years?
So this is all about, you know,the full athlete.
And the full family in many cases.
So there's, there's more to discuss there,more to actually build out.
(31:51):
So this is, this is wonderful.
And, I am so happythat we're having this conversation.
And what we do to initiate at the end is,we ask each of our podcast
guest one big kind of provoking question.
The world can be and is a difficult place,and sometimes it can be hard
(32:12):
to hold on to hope.
That's why each episodewe dedicate the last couple of minutes
of our podcast to a special segment calledHold On to Hope.
So here's the millio (32:25):
What helps you, Tenisha, hold on to hope?
My daughter.
My daughter is the living form.
I always sayshe is my heart and soul in living form.
I always say that.
I-- my husband andI, it took us five years to get her.
(32:47):
A lot of loss.
A lot of struggles that, honestly,we probably needed NAMI during that time.
Full transparency.
But when I look at her face,I recognize that
there's always sunshine in the morning.
And she is everything.
(33:11):
I can't have prayed for a better child.
And so she's the best parts,I always say, of her dad and I.
And, so when I see, like, anytimeI think that something is not, "Oh,
my gosh, it's so hard right now,"but I will go through that journey
a million times again to get her.
Congratulations.
(33:31):
Thank you.
Your journey was incredibly valuableto who you are now.
And as a mom, and I would tell you that,you know,
the word that I melt is when my daughtersays, "dad." That's just--
and my wife always says, if she says it.
And I'm like, yeah, that. Yeah.
That's it. Yeah.
(33:53):
Yeah. When she says it.
So, I understand. So thank you.
You're a true girl's dad. Straight up.
No joke.
You know,this has been Hope Starts With Us,
a podcast by NAMI,the National Alliance on Mental Illness.
If you're looking for mental healthresources, you're not alone.
To connect with the NAMI HelpLine and findlocal resources, visit NAMI.org/help.
(34:15):
Text 'NAMI' to 62640 ordial (800)-950-NAMI (6264).
Or if you are a caregiver for someoneexperiencing mental health conditions,
the new NAMI Family CaregiverHelpLine is here to support you.
Connect with the NAMI FamilyCaregiver HelpLine by dialing
1-800-950-NAMI (6264) and press "4"to connect with a skilled family
(34:38):
caregiver helpline specialist.
Or you can text family to 62640.
Or if you are experiencingan immediate suicide, substance
use, or mental health crisis,please call or text 988
to speak with a trained supportspecialist or visit 988lifeline.org.
(34:59):
I'm Dan Gillison, your host.
Thanks for listening and be well.
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