February 25, 2026 • 46 mins
From February 23 through March 1, 2026, NAMI joins the National Alliance for Eating Disorders in challenging stigma about eating disorders and supporting recovery. In this episode, NAMI CEO Daniel H. Gillison, Jr. is joined by McCall Dempsey, founder of Southern Smash, and Alexandra Miles, Founder and CEO of Project Blackbird. They will explore the connections between their work engaging young people, embracing self-acceptance as part of recovery, and what it means to shed shame about mental health and eating disorders. This episode highlights lived experiences with eating disorders and stigma reduction efforts.
You can find additional episodes of this NAMI podcast and others at nami.org/podcast.
"Hope Starts With Us" is a podcast by NAMI, the National Alliance on Mental Illness. It is hosted by NAMI CEO Daniel H. Gillison, Jr.
Co-executive produced by Traci Coulter and Connor Larsen.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
It's not just okay to not be okay.
(00:02):
It's okay to not be okay and ask for help.
It's okay to be resilientand to get better.
And there's not one solution, oneanswer to mental health recovery.
It's different for every person.
But what I think isso important is being able to feel seen.
Welcome to Hope Starts With Us, a podcastby NAMI,
the National Alliance on Mental Illness.
(00:22):
I'm your host, Dan Gillison, NAMI's CEO.
NAMI started this podcast becausewe believe that hope starts with us.
All of us.
Hope starts with ustalking about mental health.
Hope starts with us making informationaccessible.
Hope starts with usproviding resources and practical advice.
(00:43):
Hope starts with us sharing our stories,and hope starts with us
breaking the stigma.
If you or a loved one is strugglingwith a mental health condition
and have been looking for hope.
We made this podcast for you.
Hope starts with all of us.
Hope is a collective.
We hope that each episodewith each conversation brings
you into that collectiveso you know you are not alone.
(01:07):
So today we have McCall Dempsey,founder of Southern Smash,
part of the National Alliancefor Eating Disorders
and an eating disorder survivorand passionate advocate for recovery.
And Alexandra Miles,founder and CEO of PROJECT BLACKBIRD,
touring college campusesto address mental health stigma.
(01:30):
McCall, Alexandra, we are so fortunateto have you with us today.
How are you doing?
Fantastic.
Thank you so much for having meand the Alliance be a part of this.
We always love collaboratingand doing things with NAMI.
And likewise.
Doing great and great to see you.
Great to be here.
Thank you. Well, it'swonderful to be with both of you.
(01:50):
So and we'll go ahead and get startedand looking forward to the conversation.
So first question is to you, McCall,could you tell our audience,
would you tell our audienceabout your experience
with an eating disorderand your recovery journey?
Because there's a journey and there's alsothe understanding of, wait a minute,
there's something going on here.
So could you tell our audienceabout your experience?
(02:13):
Yeah.
So I started experiencingeating disorder, around the age of 15.
But I can really now see the starsor, you know,
all of the things kind of lining up.
It's not that an eating disorderjust forms overnight.
And I really struggled, you know, the kindof sports center version of my story,
if you will, is that I really struggledin shame and in silence.
(02:37):
You know, I was doing so much of lifedoing what I was supposed to be doing,
and so much of my worth was tied into myappearance, my achievements, my success.
And so that carried from high schoolinto college and of course, into college.
And something I'm so passionate aboutis that the first thing that as I entered
college, wasn't worried about classesor majors or anything like that,
(02:59):
it was gaining the freshman 15.
And so it was just one thing after anotherthat really tied back into that
eating disorder and that my worth was tiedinto a number on the scale.
My words was tied into what I looked like,and the truth of my story is that I,
quote unquote, "looked fine." And aswe know, eating disorders know no bounds.
(03:20):
They affect every race,gender, socioeconomic type, every human.
The only requirement to have an eatingdisorder is to have a body.
Right?
And here I was walking around campus,you know, social chairman of my sorority,
so involved on campus at Ole Miss andliterally dying from an eating disorder.
And that went on for about 15 years.
(03:40):
And I can't--becauseeating disorders are not talked about.
Right?
And they are still seenas that stereotypical illness of choice.
And we know that they are brain-basedbiological illnesses.
And so I kept thinking that this noisein my head would go away "when...", right?
It would go away when I weighed thisor when I graduated college,
(04:02):
when I got married, when I got that job,as if this illness would just poof, vanish
with crossing a finish lineand you know, cancer doesn't cure itself.
And just like cancer or any other illness,we need support
and professional interventionas well in an eating disorder.
And so I was 29 years oldwhen I finally sought help in treatment.
(04:24):
And I quit what I thought wasmy dream job and entered treatment
and felt like the biggest failureand so full of shame.
And I didn't even tell anyoneI was going to treatment.
And when I left treatment,as I kind of started
to gain footing into my path of recovery,I realized that recovery wasn't
(04:44):
going to be this finish line.
It wasn't going to be this like, poof,it's done.
No one was coming downand anointing me recovered.
That recovery was going to be learninghow to speak out
my shame, learning how to shinelight on my shame, you know.
Queen Brené Brown saysthat shame metastasizes in the darkness.
And the morethat I have that eating disorder
(05:04):
and those secrets, the morethe eating disorder grew.
And through my recovery, I learned that,oh, the more I speak out my shame,
the more I'm letting goand coming into my authentic self.
And so when I left treatment,I knew that I wanted to make recovery
my joband that I wanted to pay it forward.
And so that's really when I started outon my path of recovery, discovering
(05:24):
who I really wasand really embracing that imperfect road
to recovery, that it's not a straighttrajectory, it's not a finish line.
It is this constant, messy up and downand learning how to cope with
not just eating disorder, but just copingwith life and the messiness of life.
So, and that's how I fell into the workthat I'm sure
(05:45):
we're going to talk about herein a little bit.
Yeah, we're going to talk about it.
However,I want to build on what you've shared.
First of all, you,you matriculated through Ole Miss, great
Southeastern Conference schooland a beautiful campus So beautiful.
It's so beautiful and you think about,you know, one being accepted
and you're a student there.
(06:06):
You're with your sororityand all of these things.
And you said somethingthat, for our listeners is so important
that you navigated through all of that,had your dream job, and at 29 said,
hold on, I've got to take care of me.
That is profound.
And I just want to make sure our audienceheard what you shared, because that--
(06:29):
thank you for sharing your vulnerabilityand your experiences.
And there is no starting pointand end point to your to what you said.
Because, I wrote down, you mentioned,the failure,
the shame, 29 years old, dream job.
So we're going to come back to that,if you don't mind.
But I wanted to make surethat we're hearing you and
(06:52):
that I want to make sure our audienceis hearing you because we know there's
other young people that are navigatingthe same thing right now.
So, Alexandra, it is so cooland so nice to check in with you again.
And we're gonna dive deeper into your workon the college
campuses later in the conversation.
But right now, what I'd like to askyou about is self-acceptance
(07:15):
and destigmatizing mental health.
Would you tell us more about the hashtag,#shedshame
and what that means to PROJECT BLACKBIRD?
Yeah, very in linewith what McCall was just sharing.
Actually, I think you said it so well,mentioning Brené Brown
and how many people live in shameand silence around mental health.
(07:39):
My experience as well,when I was diagnosed
back in 2018, I was similar,a little younger, but 26 years old
when I went to treatment. And,on the personal side,
I remember feeling similarly,a lot of shame in silence,
not only around having an eating disorderor struggling with mental health.
(07:59):
Nobody in my community spoke about it.
My family didn'tspeak about mental health.
I didn't know what I was struggling with,but I knew something was off the baseline.
I knew something was wrong.
I actually experienced a lot of shamebeing in treatment
because I didn't feel deserving toeven be there.
I thought, well, you know, whatI have experienced, maybe it isn't as bad.
(08:21):
There's so much comparisonin mental health
that you feel ashamedeven to be struggling.
I just was living and breathingin this bubble of shame.
And the reality isnobody asks to struggle.
Nobody is born and there--no one has the first thought upon
entering this world, "I really, reallyhope one day I have an eating disorder.
(08:42):
I really hope one day that I struggleand hate, you know, hate waking up."
I mean, nobody, nobody asks to strugglewith mental health.
So there is no reason for shame to exist.
But we know that in a lot of communitiesand for a lot of individuals,
there's this messaging that creates shameand creates--and shame seeds in silence.
(09:04):
So what #shedshame meansfor PROJECT BLACKBIRD?
And the reason that we chose #shedshameas a hashtag
is that we really hopethat we can create a world
and create an environmentwhere we really are getting rid of shame,
so that these studentsand community members
can speak about what they are experiencingand make it safer
for somebody else to say, "Yeah, me too.""I struggle with the same thing,"
(09:28):
or "I struggle with this," or "my brother,my sister, my father, my child..."
We all struggle and we all know somebodywho has struggled at some point.
But theidea is not to live in that struggle.
The idea is, it'snot just okay to not be okay.
It's okay to not be okay and ask for help.
It's okay to be resilientand to get better.
(09:50):
And so what we're trying to do with#shedshame is really uplift
the community aroundbeing vulnerable and healing.
That is absolutely fantastic.
And congratulations to youwith the work you're doing
and that hashtagand really changing the conversation,
and really addressingthe current narrative.
(10:11):
And building on that,I really wanted to ask both of you
about your workthat speaks directly to young people. And,
what is that work like these days?
And specificallywith the continued rise of social media,
how are you connecting with young peoplewho may be struggling
with body image, and McCalland then Alexandra,
(10:33):
would you share your thinkingand your work that you're doing?
Yeah.
So, you know, it's pretty easyto start the conversation
because we're literally smashing scaleson college campuses.
So we like to make a lot of noiseat Southern Smash and at the Alliance.
And so the whole goal of that is to trulyyou know,
smashing a scale, smashing the stigmaand starting the conversation.
(10:57):
You know,like I said, I was silenced by shame.
And I knew that as I went topay it forward, I wanted to create
something that was real and relevant.
And I knew that as I was a college studentwalking across the grove at Ole Miss,
if I had a table that said, cometalk to me about eating disorders
and mental health, I'd be like, "Nothanks.
Bye." But here we are.
(11:19):
We're actually setting up in the Grovenext week.
We've got a bunch of events next weeklined up across the country,
and we are smashing scales.
We've got music.
We've got, you know, fun thingsand all of these different activities
to start the conversation.
My goal with Southern Smash,as a program of the Alliance
is not about eating disorder 101.
My goal is to get students to say,what are they doing over there?
(11:43):
Okay, that looks cool.
Let me come check it out.
And throughout our activities, it'sdesigned to help students say,
what is my relationshipwith food and body?
To know where to go to get help.
And to Alexandra's perfect point,to know that it's okay, to not be okay,
and to know where to go and ask for help.
Right?
And so that and startingthat kind of conversation is so important
(12:07):
because then they're seeing that, oh,eating disorders aren't this like lifetime
movie where it is this, you know,stereotypical white, thin teen.
Right?
It's that, it is so sick and then she'scured by the end of the 30 minute movie.
It is about all race, all genders,all body types
that are experiencing thisand that these students are thinking like,
(12:29):
oh my gosh, you know, with our "let itgo" cards, like what is weighing you down?
Whether it's an eating disorder,whether it's anxiety, self-harm,
maybe it's a biology test this afternoon.
Like what external thingsare you putting so much into your work
that you need to let go of? Right?
And so it'sall of these different touch points
that the students can actually relate toand say, "huh..."
And they'll come up to me and say,oh my gosh, McCall,
(12:49):
after hearing your story, I didn't knowit wasn't normal to obsess about
when I go to the gym or what I ate,or what I look like, or this or that.
And I'm like, "yeah,yeah." So the funny thing is, guys,
we don't have to live by those bounds.
And the really cool thingabout the Southern Smash and the Alliance
and the workthat we do overarching with the Alliance,
is that I can go to these collegecampuses.
(13:11):
These students can say,oh gosh, I didn't know I had to, like,
be bound by all of these external factorsthat are defining me.
And then I get to say, but here'sa really cool thing, because the Alliance,
we have free therapist led support groups,we have them six days a week.
These kids can log on from their dorm,from wherever they're apartments,
in their pajamas,and be a fly on the proverbial Zoom wall
(13:32):
and get to hear in that space, "Me too.
I am seen, I am heard,I am worthy of asking for help."
And so I thinkthat's the really important thread
between Southern Smash, that we are loud.
I'm pretty loud as a human,so there's that.
We're smashing scales,and then I get to thread that needle
(13:54):
to them to say, come sit in community,come find your community.
And we had over 30,000 people from over 80countries logging on last year.
So our community is rich and diverseand beautiful.
And these studentsthat some of them are in a care desert,
some of them don't have access to mentalhealth, are able to log on and say,
(14:14):
wait, this is what I've been waiting forbecause that was something
I was waiting for someone to say, it'sokay to not be okay.
You don't have to have it all together,girl.
And that's kind of what we are able to do,especially with our college students
that are under so much pressure,as we know, in this day and age.
You know, this is fantastic, McCall.
And, you know-- I just want to slow downa second and take in what you said.
(14:40):
I love Southern Smash. I'ma southern girl.
I'm born and raisedLouisiana, went to Ole Miss, Hotty Toddy.
And so. I hear that accent coming out.
We're across the country.
You know, we are not just in the South.
We are across the country,in the Alliance. We are national.
So we do serve beyond the South.
But I got to stick to my roots.
So today is the first day, well,yesterday was Fat Tuesday in New Orleans,
(15:02):
and so, what is it.
"Laissez les bons tempsrouler." Laissez les bons temps rouler.
Laissez les bons temps rouler.
Yeah. Let the good times roll.
And I love the Southern Smash.
So when you said mashing scales,do you actually mean that physically
that that'swhat you guys are doing on the grove?
(15:23):
Oh, yeah.
I got one right behind me right there.
It says "Weight does not equal worth."We are taking sledgehammers to scales.
And so. What a visual. What a visual.
That's what I--we are attracting studentsthat would never in a million years
step on to or come and talk tosomeone that works in the mental health,
much less eating disorder realm. Right?
(15:45):
I was at UNC Chapel Hill, this is yearsago, and a group of guys comes up
and I was like, hey,we're here, we're smashing scales,
and they're like, we want to smash scales.
And I was like, okay. And I said,tell me about yourselves.
They said, we're on the wrestling team.
And I was like,okay, you're going to, you're going
to need all the sledgehammers, you know?
And so you forget about every human'sdifferent interaction with what
(16:07):
a scale might mean to them.
But even beyond that,I tell folks that are coming,
we all have something to smash.
We all have somethingthat is weighing us down in our lives
that we need to smash and get rid of.
You might not have a bad relationshipwith a scale. Great.
You have something that you needto smash the heck out of it today.
And so put that down, write it--and we let them write on the scales.
(16:27):
It is tangiblethrough every step of our event
so that they can say,I am smashing this biology.
I'm smashing my parent's expectations,I'm smashing this abusive
relationship,I am smashing whatever it might be,
and to have them continue to think about,like what that really means.
And while it's really fun and jovialand all these things, I've had students
(16:48):
that will DM me on Instagram.
They said, you came three years agoand I wasn't ready,
but I'm ready now and I want to help youbring it to my school.
And so that's the coolest, is thatwhen we get that full circle moment
and we get to pass the baton and empowerothers to pay it forward,
that is like the most amazingpart of my job.
This is so cool.
And as you said, to that person orthat person said to you, I wasn't ready.
(17:12):
Think about you and Alexandra.
Alexandra, 26 and you at 29.
So that's right in--and it's kind of moved up
from the standpoint of she was three yearsfrom that and said, I'm ready now.
So congratulations.
And this goes to somethingwe do. And Alexander I'm coming you next.
But we do NAMI On Campus and NAMIOn Campus is these groups of young people
(17:35):
that, judgment-free zonesfor them to be able to talk.
And we make sure that we give themthe assets, and the resources,
so that they can have these vulnerable,safe conversations
that will actually providea strength to them as they navigate.
So this is fantastic.
So, Alexandra, I want to ask you,what is it like these days?
(17:55):
And, andwith the continued rise of social media,
how are you connecting with young people?
Well, let me just say, first of all,and for anyone listening and watching,
McCall and I have, we've met once,but it's been such a long time
since they've chatted.
And it's amazing that these two programsthat we run, they're very different.
But hearing the feedbackthat you get, hearing
(18:18):
what these students are saying to you,they're so similar in so many ways.
Yeah, totally.
And it's amazing how similarthe narrative is for these students.
We're getting very,very similar messages, feedback.
These programs are so needed.
And, and I can tell youthey're incredibly effective.
And even if it's just onethat's impacted in that audience,
(18:38):
you save a lifeand you really make such a difference.
So it's amazingjust hearing you talk about it.
The PROJECT BLACKBIRD program, how we runthat program, it's storytelling based.
So ours is around a film,and then we have professional athletes
or celebrity actors or influencers,singers, role models of sorts,
speaking in front of these studentsabout lived experience, mental health.
(19:02):
And we pair that with a journal promptthat the students
then fill out anonymously.
They do an anonymous exchangeand we send them home with a past
participant's response.
And then as McCall does as well,there's the direct resource part.
So we provide a full year of coveredtherapy for these, for any of the students
in the audience that need it.
And then this resource fair in the backso that it's less overwhelming.
(19:24):
We connect them with about 15to 20 local and national resources
that are actually specific to them.
And it's so that they can feel seen.
There's not one solution, oneanswer to mental health recovery.
It's different for every person.
But what I think is so importantthat, that McCall mentioned
is, is being able to feel seen.
Seen and understood and connected.
(19:46):
And so we're both creating thisin our respective spaces.
And what we're getting in returnis honesty.
And these, and these reactions.
And similarly, I mean, what I did oneevent for the city of Los Angeles
where I had men coming up to mesaying I didn't realize that, you know,
when I was on set.
And I made it a hard rulethat I couldn't eat between this hour
(20:08):
and this hour, and I wasn't allowed.
And all these messagesthat they didn't realize could be tied to,
and I wasn't there to saythat it was an eating disorder or not
eating disorder,but tied to a poor relationship with food
and with their body and body image.
I--we are now workingalongside the Department of Education
for an HBCU tour.
(20:30):
Seeing in that space,in various different communities.
We work in, with LGBTQIA youth,we hear it.
And that to me, I mean, it's everybody.
Eating disorders and mental health,it does not discriminate.
And what we hear again and againfrom the youth, the experiences.
And I'm at every event, thesekids, these students are coming up to me
in the back of the room.
(20:52):
And yes, they're going to the celebrity,but they're actually going to myself
and the other panelists that feel,I think, more attainable to them.
And they're being honestand they're saying, "I've
never said this out loud,but I think I struggle with x, y, z
or I didn't realize," as McCallsaid, exactly.
"I didn't realize that I, that I struggledwith x, y, z," and so it's allowing them
(21:14):
to be vulnerable and with social media,you mentioned social media.
What I tried to say and addresson the panel, it always comes up
the topic of social media.
It's incredibly dangerous.
And it can be, it candefinitely be something that either sparks
or contributes to a poor relationshipwith food, with your body.
(21:38):
I mean, I still go on all the time,and I have curated
my feed to be different,but I used to get all the time
the this is what I eat in a day.
This is what I,you know, how I work out in the day.
And of course, we're a comparison culture.
We're looking at others.
We're all walking aroundand none of us have the answers.
None of us have any idea of what is right.
We know the best for ourselvesbecause we live in our own bodies.
(22:01):
But sometimes we're confused.
You know, there's a lot of confusingmessaging out there,
but when the topic of social media comesup, it's not going away for the youth.
And so tostand up there and say get rid of
social media is not necessarily realistic.
So how do we actually use social mediain a positive way.
How do we just re-shape and reframethe way we use social media. And
(22:26):
I'm seeing the youth startto actually make those shifts and changes.
And they seem to be looking towardsmore authentic role models,
more authentic heroes and influencers.
And so I do see hope in that.
But yeah, to recap all of that,I think I'm piggybacking off
of what McCall said just before me, butwe're really seeing very similar responses
(22:50):
to this kind of programming.
And I think it's about feeling seen.
It's about connectionand seeing your peers, heroes, role
models, all of the abovejust being honest around mental health.
It's making it saferfor them to be vulnerable.
And they're asking for the help.
And thenthe authenticity of your voice
and McCall'svoice really does make a difference.
(23:13):
And it's peer to peer, and they canresonate with your lived experience.
And it is--that's why they come up to you,when you're on the panel.
And that's why they reach outand speak with you.
We say something at NAMI,people don't care how much you know
until they know how much you care.
And you guys are demonstratingthat on a daily basis.
(23:34):
So, you know, kudos to youfor what you're doing.
And, as I build on thatand looking at it, we, you know,
we want to meet people where they are,but we know that we are so much
of a cosmetic society.
We judge a book by its cover.
We don't get into the table of contentsand the chapters.
And that's what we're talking about herein terms of,
you know, that co-ed or that individual,even the wrestler, the grappler.
(23:58):
"I gotta get down to this weight.
I got to do this.
I got to do that or this." It'sthat and it's the cosmetics.
"I want to look like that versuswhat I look like here."
So it's also building that self-confidenceand you know, using, using platforms
to help, young people navigateall of this is so critically important.
And removing the shame, is so, so cool.
So thank you for that.
(24:19):
We have somethingcalled Ending the Silence.
And I know that you're familiar with that,and it's really right in this wheelhouse
of what you're doing.
So let me ask you this.
As you meet young people and,how do you see social media?
The body image concerns and dietculture show up in your conversations.
And I come from a familythat my wife always says,
(24:41):
oh, yeah, your whole family are foodies.
And it's one of thosecultural kinds of things for her
not being a foodie.
Yeah.
So it's not social media for youngpeople,
but, it's also something to navigate.
So what do you all see?
I mean, I can hop inbecause, you know, with social media
(25:03):
and I think, you know, like Alexandrasaid, it's not going anywhere.
Right?
And we know that there's so much harm.
It's documented. We see it.
And I think there's a place to embrace it.
I really encouragewhen I'm speaking at high schools,
colleges, everywhere in between,you know, I'm a mom, even to other moms.
I'm like, unfollow. Mute, block, unfollow.
(25:25):
Like if that--if you're looking at imagesthat make you--you know,
my barometer in recovery and in life isif something makes me feel less
than, you block, follow,whether it's in real life
or on social media.
And if things are popping up,you can cultivate your feed
like Alexandra was talking about.
And so that's really what I encouragethat-- diversify your feed.
(25:49):
See humans of all body types see human--the Olympics is a perfect example, right?
We're in the middle of the WinterOlympics.
Look at allthe incredible diversity of bodies
doing absolutely phenomenal thingsand looking at those and cultivating
a feed that shows resiliency,diversity, and people being people.
(26:13):
And not chasing lightsand not chasing engagement.
That's what--that'sthe beauty of social media.
I built, when I started SouthernSmash in 2012, I was a one-woman
show, just making it up on the fly like,this is something that's happening
and I've just got to chase this fire.
I built it on social mediaand when it came out, my eating disorder
(26:34):
story came out because a friend--I was writing an anonymous blog
and a friend said--I finally shared an entry with a friend
and she says,you have to let me put this on Facebook.
This is kind of pre-Instagram. I'm older.
And I was like, you're crazy.
Then everybody's going to know I'm crazy.
I went to treatment.
You know I still hadall the stigma attached to it.
Then she said you don't know whoyou might help and the pay it forward
(26:57):
promise I madewhen I left treatment came crawling back
and I was like, "Okay, fine."The next morning I woke up and my Facebook
was blowing up with messages ofthank you for sharing.
I struggled with anorexia, bulimia.
I struggle with, you know, addiction.
I struggle with mental health.
I struggle to be the perfect mom.
And the best message was,thank you so much for sharing McCall.
All those yearswe thought you had it together.
(27:19):
It's so nice to know you did not.
And it dawned on me that nobody wantsto see a curated, perfect life.
We want to see people as we feeland you know, we all have a cross to bear.
We all have a struggle, a burden,and it's so much easier to share that out
loud and together.
And I think that when we can utilizesocial media in that way
(27:41):
to where we are seen and heard and valued,that that can give us a leg up in life
of connecting with folks that we might nothave in our bubble wherever we are
in this moment and in this life,but to really go out and say, oh, like,
just like our alliance support groups.
You're logging on to peoplein different countries
and they're becoming friends and saying,you help me feel seen and heard.
(28:04):
And that is what social media can dowhen used correctly.
But it's up to us to really help kids,you know, college and beyond.
You don't have to follow these people.
And there are tools to helpcurate your feed
to a way that doesn't,you know, harm your mental health.
And sometimes we need a breakand that's okay to.
Curate your feed,unfollow, diversify your feed.
(28:28):
And it shows resiliency.
Thank you.
This is such a wonderful conversation. Andthank you for sharing that.
And you mentioned,as you shared your story
and what it's developed into.
And it didn't-- it wasn't lost on me,30,000 from over 80 countries.
So, you know, kudos to you. Kudos.
(28:49):
So now Alexandra, I want to come to you.
I know your initiative, PROJECT BLACKBIRD,collaborates with NAMI On Campus,
our youth-led mental healthclubs led by students on high school
and college campuses nationwide.
Why do you think it's importantto connect with youth on topics
such as destigmatizing mental health.
(29:10):
For so many various reasons,but one of the reasons
that we really, really, specifically,do a lot of work in the youth space.
Those are the next parentsand the next leaders of our world.
And when you can help change the narrativeand change the mindset of the youth,
(29:33):
they're going to be speakingto their children differently,
whether those childrenare their own personal children
or the world, you know,they're going to be the next leaders.
So they're going to speak about mentalhealth differently. And
it's not that we don't wantto help also somebody who is an adult,
we want to help everybody.
But you can really make,you can make generational change
when you start with the youth.
(29:57):
And the youth are actually so eagerfor the help.
And you know, what I found, honestly,is that when, when we speak with the youth
in the back of the room, what we hear issometimes when the youth are open
and vulnerable to speaking about mentalhealth struggle, we hear, I'm hurting,
I'm hurting, I'm hurting, I'm hurting,I'm hurting, I'm hurting, I'm hurting.
And that's what we hear.
And we're not seeing the, "Whatdo I do about it?"
(30:18):
And then you turn to the generation above,maybe the parent generation
and you hear, "Get over it." Soas we reach
the youth, I try to shape it for them as,"Can we meet in the middle somewhere?"
Can we say, I'm hurting?
I'm strugglingand I'm opening up about it.
I'm being honest about it.
And now how do we get better?
(30:39):
How do we get over it? Per se,but not in a harsh way.
Just how do we get better? How do we heal?
But I do think it's so importantto start with the youth.
And it's also a space,you mentioned earlier--
Both McCalland I ended up in treatment in our 20s.
It reall-- you start to experience a lotat a lot eating disorders,
mental health struggles.
You're seeing your peersand you're determining, where do I belong
(31:00):
in this worldas you're growing up, as you're in middle
school, high school, college.
So it's a space where you can startto rewire those neurons and reframe
the messaging that they're receivingabout themselves and where they belong.
Yeah, change the narrative.
Change the narrative. And empower them.
And empower themto bring their full selves
(31:21):
to their relationshipsinto their, into experiences.
I think there's something powerful too,you reminded me
when you said, empower them.
What I'm seeing, the shift that I'm seeingnow as we grow, we've programmed a lot.
We've, we visited over 50,000 studentsand community members, over 70 schools
we've done now.
(31:42):
And finally, I'm actually startingto see the students ask for it.
I've had, in the past week,I actually had three students email me and
ask if they couldbring this to their school,
if they could volunteer for theorganization, if they could do something.
And that's, I think that's empoweringto me to know
that the students, they do want help.
They want to get better.
(32:02):
They want programming like this, likeboth, McCall's and the one that we run.
It's not one or the other. It'sthey want more.
They just want more.
They want help.
They want, they want advocates.
They want heroes and role models.
They want individuals like usjust being honest.
And they're starting to grow thisfrom the bottom up.
They're voicing their own needs,and they're creating at themselves.
(32:25):
Yeah. And they.
And for them to knowit's okay to not be okay.
And, youknow, speaking of this, and McCall, I'm
gonna come to you, but I wanted to mentionsomething to you about young people.
One day,a young person came to me in the office
and they said, well, I don't want youto take this the wrong way.
I said, well, you know,I think I'll be okay.
And they said, well,you know, we have this HelpLine
and when I call the HelpLine,it sounds like I'm talking to you
(32:47):
or my dad.
And I said, tell me more.
And he says, well,if you really want to help young people,
they need to hear a voiceon, when they call the HelpLine
that sounds like them.
So we tested and then,we beta tested, pilot,
and now we have launched an optionon our HelpLine
that is staffed by youthand is for youth and young adults.
(33:08):
And we're trying to actively listenand make sure that we are collaborating.
So it goes back to what you're sayingand what you guys, both of you are doing.
So congratulations.
And, McCall, I want to come to you.
And I saw that you're,you, highlight embracing
inner uniqueness with the young peopleyou connect with.
(33:28):
Would you share moreabout what that means to you,
and how can that help young people?
Well, I think, you know, growing up,it was always,
okay, we got to check this box, right?
You got you got to get the good gradesin high school.
Then you got to check the boxand get to college,
and you got to check the boxand then get the job.
And so it was all about like,chasing what I was supposed to do.
(33:50):
And I never was given,nor did I ever give myself permission
to figure out what I wanted or who I was.
And I often tell from high schoolto college, you know,
what is it that you want to do?
And a lot of times,and a lot of our groups,
we talk about our recovery "why's."And this is something
(34:11):
that is such a powerfulcoming back into ourselves
after experiencing an eating disorder,where whether, you know,
you are listening to the outside criticsor the inner critics,
what is your recovery "why"?
What is unique about you?
Where do you want to go?
What do you want to do?
And giving studentsand this was part of my journey,
(34:33):
giving myself permission to say,let's embrace me, my goodness.
And to have the ability and the space,because eating disorder and mental illness
takes up so much space in your brain.
But to have that mental freedomto say, "What can I do?
(34:54):
What do I want?"And when I left treatment, you know,
I quit what I thought was my dream job.
I was like,oh wait, that was not my dream job.
And then I was like, I don't know whatI'm going to do, but I'll figure it out.
And then I found myself,you know, creating Southern Smash
and telling my parents, yeah,I'm not going back to work. Instead, I'm
going to start a nonprofit.
We're going to smash scales on,you know, college campuses,
and I'm going to travel the countryand they're like,
(35:17):
well your sister's a doctor.
And I'm like,that's fine. I'll figure it out.
And so really,it's about embracing who you are.
And we're not all supposed to fitin this cookie cutter
doctor, lawyer, this that mold.
Great, kudos. Like good job to my sister.
Good job to all those peoplethat find their passion in that.
But I think a lot of times inespecially in the college arena,
we get caught up in,I got to get into grad school,
(35:37):
I got to get into here,I got to get into this med school
and that, and it's like, wait, did we everpause and say, what is my passion?
What is my fire?
Where are my talents?
And how do I follow that?
How do I feed into that?
Because they're not gonna all lookthe same, they're going to be messy up
and down and all around.
And so it's really about pausingand looking inward to say, what do I want?
(36:00):
Because I can tell youthat throughout all my years
experiencing my eating disorders,I was just cloaked in that shame.
But I looked perfect.
Everything was cookie cutter, perfect.
And then here I am now, sharing a storythat is messy and not perfect
and not pretty.
And I have found myselffeeling the most authentic
(36:23):
and real and vulnerable and worthyand beautiful in my skin than I ever have.
And so I really want others to pausein the rat race
that is life, especially life in the U.Sof going and doing and accomplishing,
accomplished and say, pause,"Where am I?" "Where am I in this?
And what do I want in my life?" You feelso much more connected that way, too.
(36:45):
Actually, if I can piggyback off of that.
Yeah, would you piggyback? Go rightahead, please.
Because that resonates so much with mepersonally, McCall,
and I actually did myself, a lot of work.
And I share thissometimes on panels around uniqueness,
specifically what makes me feel present.
(37:06):
What do I live for when I wake up?
What am I excited about in my dayand what actually keeps me really present?
Not thinking in the future,not thinking in the past.
For me, it's comedy.
I love stand-up comedy,when I'm belly laughing.
I mean, that's it.
I live for that, I live for that.
And also 2000s, early 2000s musicthat's a bizarre one.
(37:28):
But I'll, I'll pop that on.
I think there's like a Class of 2008 radiothat I listen to.
But both of those things keep me present.
That's uniquely me.
And I'll ask that question to a lot ofa lot of the students, you know, what?
What is it that really excitesyou when you wake up throughout your day,
find that uniqueness and then tyingthat back, Dan, to, you asked a question
(37:49):
earlier about, I think it was socialmedia, body image, and diet culture.
And we didn'tget a chance to touch on the other two.
But the, the body image concerns,I actually had, I had a young woman
at a recent event asked me, recentit was Halloween, and she was asking
a very legitimate question.
She said, I'm really scared for Halloweenbecause I have to wear a costume
(38:13):
that shows my bodyand I don't like my body.
And I said, now, wait a minute.
First of all, why?
Why do we feel like we have to showwe have to wear a costume
that shows our bodies,that it has nothing to do with Halloween.
But what I said toher, we had just had the conversation
about uniqueness and I said,I love when Halloween comes around
because I love funny things.
(38:34):
I love getting creativeand finding a costume that's a pun,
something that is-- so I was I was MissClaus one year without Santa Claus.
I was an independent Claus.
If someone didn't get thatand someone didn't think that was quirky
and funny, that I made a grammar joke,they weren't my friend, anyways,
it didn't matter.
So I said to her, get creative,find something--And I also said,
(38:55):
do you remember a single costume fromfive years ago that your friends wore?
No, we're all in here.
We're not paying attention really,to everybody else out here.
They're not paying attention either.
What they might remember is a quirky,funny costume or one that had,
you know, that you really put effort intoand painted.
They're not remembering your bodyand what was shown there.
(39:18):
They're not connecting with your body.
They're connecting with your quirkiness,your uniqueness, your mind,
the conversationsyou're having in that room. And can you
have those conversations in the roomif you're consumed with your body?
Probably not.
So you're disconnecting by focusingon that body
image concern. Yes. It's valid.
Yes, I understand, you know, Dan,you made a great comment earlier
(39:39):
about how we are a cosmetic culture.
We are we're a visual culture.
And that's, and that's real.
But it's not actually formingthe connection that we want.
So we have to acknowledge that andjust be real with ourselves about that.
And what is itthat we really want in this world?
And if it's connection, let's focuson that and what can bring us connection.
(40:00):
Well, you all to helping so many.
And thank you for building on thatand adding such,
rich content to this conversationand showing how much you care.
And I love, what you talked aboutin terms of the body image.
I also love about the inner uniqueness.
Let's focus on the inner uniqueness.
And that, that's powerful.
And, there's so much power in the questionthat you asked that person about, "Do
(40:25):
you remember what you wore forfive years ago for Halloween?"
Yeah, there's so much here.
But what's interestingis that the young people having
the conversation with youso that you can ask them these questions
and get them to feel better about,what they're navigating.
So again, congratulations to you.
It made me think of something.
(40:45):
As we get ready to wrap up,I wrote some words down
that I'm going to share with you.
Care, collaboration, community,and the collective.
The one that I have as an outlieris competition.
What have not heardand what we're not about is competition.
We're about collaboration, communityand the collective.
And it is so cool to be engagingwith both of you,
(41:06):
because in this worldit's such a competitive place.
And right now, our young people need careand collaboration and community,
and that's what you all are bringing.
So I wanted to make sure I said thaton behalf of NAMI and for what you do.
So thank you.
I appreciate it.
And as we wrap up, we have one lastquestion that we ask each of our guests.
(41:31):
And youmentioned the United States
a little while ago, but we say the worldcan be a difficult place, and sometimes
it can be hard to hold on to hope.
So with each episode,we dedicate the last couple of minutes
of our podcast to a special segment calledHold On to Hope.
So I'd like to ask each of youwhat helps you hold on to hope
(41:51):
when you're not smashing those scales,McCall?
Yeah, I love this so much.
This is something that comes upin our alliance groups all the time,
because it is really hard to find hope,especially in this world.
And then when you're strugglingwith an eating disorder.
And one thing that we always talk aboutand one thing that I have experienced
(42:16):
in my own life, when someone told me,"Let me hold the hope."
You know, hope can be heavy.
And so sometimes we need someone elseto hold it for us
until we can come back to it.
And so one thing we talk about in ourin our group says, we will always,
the Alliance will always be thereto hold on, to hope for others.
And for me personally,it's something that I really cultivated
(42:40):
a practice of finding hopein the little ways throughout my recovery
and throughout other life hurdles.
And hope is found not in this, likerainbow glitter pie in the sky.
Hope is found in these tiny, tiny crevicesand the really, really hard times.
And it might be a smile from a nursethat if you're experiencing
(43:02):
something in the hospital,it might be a smile from a barista.
It might be your furry pet.
It might be just the tiniest little thingthat can give you
that little spot of hope.
And if you're in a placewhere it's hard for you to hold onto hope,
remember others can hold it for youuntil you're ready to come back for it.
(43:22):
So that's what we always love to say, isthat we are always here to hold the hope
because we know recovery is possibleand it is always happening.
That is so powerful, McCall.
Alexandra.
Alex, what helps you hold on to hope?
So much going through my brain right now?
And that was so beautifully said, McCall.
I'll take the different angle on it.
(43:43):
Hope generally in the space of mentalhealth and eating disorder, recovery.
But what helps me hold on to hopein that world and that realm
is the generational shift thatthat I've seen happen in my own lifetime.
Even in other impact areas.
And, this is very specific.
But when I was, when I was growing up,when I was in high school, middle school,
(44:06):
if I saw somebody honestly, at that time,if I saw someone throw a McDonald's
bag out the window,I didn't think twice about it.
I probably threw a McDonald'sbag out the window
because that's what everybody was doing.
And in five years,you see somebody throw trash
out of their car windowand your stomach falls out of your body.
I mean, your heart kind of skipped,jumps a beat, and what are they doing?
(44:27):
And they're I mean, there are wordsthat we used to use that
you would never hear out in society now.
And all of that changed infive years or less.
So if that can change in five yearsor less, I have so much hope
for the narrative around mental healthto change dramatically in just five years.
I really think it is,I know it is so possible.
So that's what helps mehold on to hope is I've seen it happen
(44:50):
and we'll see it happen again.
That change is going to happensooner than we know.
Yeah, well, thank you both so very much.
And you know what helps me hold on to hopeis leaders like yourselves who are,
evolving the narrative,changing the narrative, and,
bringing so much care,because you could be working
in other careers, but you've chosen this,and that's because you care.
(45:14):
And that's what helps me hold on to hope.
No one ever asked me in these podcasts,but I wanted to.
I wanted to share thatbecause I've found this to be,
yeah, I found thisto be such a powerful conversation.
So, you know,this has been Hope Starts With Ss,
a podcast by NAMI,the National Alliance on Mental Illness.
Our guests today have been McCall Dempsey,founder of Southern Smash,
(45:36):
part of the National Alliancefor Eating Disorders,
an eating disorder survivorand passionate advocate for recovery.
And Alexandra Miles,founder and CEO of PROJECT BLACKBIRD
that is touring college campusesto address mental health stigma.
Now, if you are looking for mental healthresources, you are not alone.
(45:58):
To connect with the NAMI HelpLineand find local resources,
visit NAMI.org/help.
Text "NAMI" to 62640or dial or punch (800) 950-6264.
Or if you are experiencingan immediate suicide, substance use, or
(46:18):
mental health crisis, please call or text908 to speak with a trained support
specialist or visit 988lifeline.org.
I'm Dan Gillison, your host.
Thanks for listening and be well.
It's not just okay to not be okay.
(00:02):
It's okay to not be okay and ask for help.
It's okay to be resilientand to get better.
And there's not one solution, oneanswer to mental health recovery.
It's different for every person.
But what I think isso important is being able to feel seen.
Welcome to Hope Starts With Us, a podcastby NAMI,
the National Alliance on Mental Illness.
(00:22):
I'm your host, Dan Gillison, NAMI's CEO.
NAMI started this podcast becausewe believe that hope starts with us.
All of us.
Hope starts with ustalking about mental health.
Hope starts with us making informationaccessible.
Hope starts with usproviding resources and practical advice.
(00:43):
Hope starts with us sharing our stories,and hope starts with us
breaking the stigma.
If you or a loved one is strugglingwith a mental health condition
and have been looking for hope.
We made this podcast for you.
Hope starts with all of us.
Hope is a collective.
We hope that each episodewith each conversation brings
you into that collectiveso you know you are not alone.
(01:07):
So today we have McCall Dempsey,founder of Southern Smash,
part of the National Alliancefor Eating Disorders
and an eating disorder survivorand passionate advocate for recovery.
And Alexandra Miles,founder and CEO of PROJECT BLACKBIRD,
touring college campusesto address mental health stigma.
(01:30):
McCall, Alexandra, we are so fortunateto have you with us today.
How are you doing?
Fantastic.
Thank you so much for having meand the Alliance be a part of this.
We always love collaboratingand doing things with NAMI.
And likewise.
Doing great and great to see you.
Great to be here.
Thank you. Well, it'swonderful to be with both of you.
(01:50):
So and we'll go ahead and get startedand looking forward to the conversation.
So first question is to you, McCall,could you tell our audience,
would you tell our audienceabout your experience
with an eating disorderand your recovery journey?
Because there's a journey and there's alsothe understanding of, wait a minute,
there's something going on here.
So could you tell our audienceabout your experience?
(02:13):
Yeah.
So I started experiencingeating disorder, around the age of 15.
But I can really now see the starsor, you know,
all of the things kind of lining up.
It's not that an eating disorderjust forms overnight.
And I really struggled, you know, the kindof sports center version of my story,
if you will, is that I really struggledin shame and in silence.
(02:37):
You know, I was doing so much of lifedoing what I was supposed to be doing,
and so much of my worth was tied into myappearance, my achievements, my success.
And so that carried from high schoolinto college and of course, into college.
And something I'm so passionate aboutis that the first thing that as I entered
college, wasn't worried about classesor majors or anything like that,
(02:59):
it was gaining the freshman 15.
And so it was just one thing after anotherthat really tied back into that
eating disorder and that my worth was tiedinto a number on the scale.
My words was tied into what I looked like,and the truth of my story is that I,
quote unquote, "looked fine." And aswe know, eating disorders know no bounds.
(03:20):
They affect every race,gender, socioeconomic type, every human.
The only requirement to have an eatingdisorder is to have a body.
Right?
And here I was walking around campus,you know, social chairman of my sorority,
so involved on campus at Ole Miss andliterally dying from an eating disorder.
And that went on for about 15 years.
(03:40):
And I can't--becauseeating disorders are not talked about.
Right?
And they are still seenas that stereotypical illness of choice.
And we know that they are brain-basedbiological illnesses.
And so I kept thinking that this noisein my head would go away "when...", right?
It would go away when I weighed thisor when I graduated college,
(04:02):
when I got married, when I got that job,as if this illness would just poof, vanish
with crossing a finish lineand you know, cancer doesn't cure itself.
And just like cancer or any other illness,we need support
and professional interventionas well in an eating disorder.
And so I was 29 years oldwhen I finally sought help in treatment.
(04:24):
And I quit what I thought wasmy dream job and entered treatment
and felt like the biggest failureand so full of shame.
And I didn't even tell anyoneI was going to treatment.
And when I left treatment,as I kind of started
to gain footing into my path of recovery,I realized that recovery wasn't
(04:44):
going to be this finish line.
It wasn't going to be this like, poof,it's done.
No one was coming downand anointing me recovered.
That recovery was going to be learninghow to speak out
my shame, learning how to shinelight on my shame, you know.
Queen Brené Brown saysthat shame metastasizes in the darkness.
And the morethat I have that eating disorder
(05:04):
and those secrets, the morethe eating disorder grew.
And through my recovery, I learned that,oh, the more I speak out my shame,
the more I'm letting goand coming into my authentic self.
And so when I left treatment,I knew that I wanted to make recovery
my joband that I wanted to pay it forward.
And so that's really when I started outon my path of recovery, discovering
(05:24):
who I really wasand really embracing that imperfect road
to recovery, that it's not a straighttrajectory, it's not a finish line.
It is this constant, messy up and downand learning how to cope with
not just eating disorder, but just copingwith life and the messiness of life.
So, and that's how I fell into the workthat I'm sure
(05:45):
we're going to talk about herein a little bit.
Yeah, we're going to talk about it.
However,I want to build on what you've shared.
First of all, you,you matriculated through Ole Miss, great
Southeastern Conference schooland a beautiful campus So beautiful.
It's so beautiful and you think about,you know, one being accepted
and you're a student there.
(06:06):
You're with your sororityand all of these things.
And you said somethingthat, for our listeners is so important
that you navigated through all of that,had your dream job, and at 29 said,
hold on, I've got to take care of me.
That is profound.
And I just want to make sure our audienceheard what you shared, because that--
(06:29):
thank you for sharing your vulnerabilityand your experiences.
And there is no starting pointand end point to your to what you said.
Because, I wrote down, you mentioned,the failure,
the shame, 29 years old, dream job.
So we're going to come back to that,if you don't mind.
But I wanted to make surethat we're hearing you and
(06:52):
that I want to make sure our audienceis hearing you because we know there's
other young people that are navigatingthe same thing right now.
So, Alexandra, it is so cooland so nice to check in with you again.
And we're gonna dive deeper into your workon the college
campuses later in the conversation.
But right now, what I'd like to askyou about is self-acceptance
(07:15):
and destigmatizing mental health.
Would you tell us more about the hashtag,#shedshame
and what that means to PROJECT BLACKBIRD?
Yeah, very in linewith what McCall was just sharing.
Actually, I think you said it so well,mentioning Brené Brown
and how many people live in shameand silence around mental health.
(07:39):
My experience as well,when I was diagnosed
back in 2018, I was similar,a little younger, but 26 years old
when I went to treatment. And,on the personal side,
I remember feeling similarly,a lot of shame in silence,
not only around having an eating disorderor struggling with mental health.
(07:59):
Nobody in my community spoke about it.
My family didn'tspeak about mental health.
I didn't know what I was struggling with,but I knew something was off the baseline.
I knew something was wrong.
I actually experienced a lot of shamebeing in treatment
because I didn't feel deserving toeven be there.
I thought, well, you know, whatI have experienced, maybe it isn't as bad.
(08:21):
There's so much comparisonin mental health
that you feel ashamedeven to be struggling.
I just was living and breathingin this bubble of shame.
And the reality isnobody asks to struggle.
Nobody is born and there--no one has the first thought upon
entering this world, "I really, reallyhope one day I have an eating disorder.
(08:42):
I really hope one day that I struggleand hate, you know, hate waking up."
I mean, nobody, nobody asks to strugglewith mental health.
So there is no reason for shame to exist.
But we know that in a lot of communitiesand for a lot of individuals,
there's this messaging that creates shameand creates--and shame seeds in silence.
(09:04):
So what #shedshame meansfor PROJECT BLACKBIRD?
And the reason that we chose #shedshameas a hashtag
is that we really hopethat we can create a world
and create an environmentwhere we really are getting rid of shame,
so that these studentsand community members
can speak about what they are experiencingand make it safer
for somebody else to say, "Yeah, me too.""I struggle with the same thing,"
(09:28):
or "I struggle with this," or "my brother,my sister, my father, my child..."
We all struggle and we all know somebodywho has struggled at some point.
But theidea is not to live in that struggle.
The idea is, it'snot just okay to not be okay.
It's okay to not be okay and ask for help.
It's okay to be resilientand to get better.
(09:50):
And so what we're trying to do with#shedshame is really uplift
the community aroundbeing vulnerable and healing.
That is absolutely fantastic.
And congratulations to youwith the work you're doing
and that hashtagand really changing the conversation,
and really addressingthe current narrative.
(10:11):
And building on that,I really wanted to ask both of you
about your workthat speaks directly to young people. And,
what is that work like these days?
And specificallywith the continued rise of social media,
how are you connecting with young peoplewho may be struggling
with body image, and McCalland then Alexandra,
(10:33):
would you share your thinkingand your work that you're doing?
Yeah.
So, you know, it's pretty easyto start the conversation
because we're literally smashing scaleson college campuses.
So we like to make a lot of noiseat Southern Smash and at the Alliance.
And so the whole goal of that is to trulyyou know,
smashing a scale, smashing the stigmaand starting the conversation.
(10:57):
You know,like I said, I was silenced by shame.
And I knew that as I went topay it forward, I wanted to create
something that was real and relevant.
And I knew that as I was a college studentwalking across the grove at Ole Miss,
if I had a table that said, cometalk to me about eating disorders
and mental health, I'd be like, "Nothanks.
Bye." But here we are.
(11:19):
We're actually setting up in the Grovenext week.
We've got a bunch of events next weeklined up across the country,
and we are smashing scales.
We've got music.
We've got, you know, fun thingsand all of these different activities
to start the conversation.
My goal with Southern Smash,as a program of the Alliance
is not about eating disorder 101.
My goal is to get students to say,what are they doing over there?
(11:43):
Okay, that looks cool.
Let me come check it out.
And throughout our activities, it'sdesigned to help students say,
what is my relationshipwith food and body?
To know where to go to get help.
And to Alexandra's perfect point,to know that it's okay, to not be okay,
and to know where to go and ask for help.
Right?
And so that and startingthat kind of conversation is so important
(12:07):
because then they're seeing that, oh,eating disorders aren't this like lifetime
movie where it is this, you know,stereotypical white, thin teen.
Right?
It's that, it is so sick and then she'scured by the end of the 30 minute movie.
It is about all race, all genders,all body types
that are experiencing thisand that these students are thinking like,
(12:29):
oh my gosh, you know, with our "let itgo" cards, like what is weighing you down?
Whether it's an eating disorder,whether it's anxiety, self-harm,
maybe it's a biology test this afternoon.
Like what external thingsare you putting so much into your work
that you need to let go of? Right?
And so it'sall of these different touch points
that the students can actually relate toand say, "huh..."
And they'll come up to me and say,oh my gosh, McCall,
(12:49):
after hearing your story, I didn't knowit wasn't normal to obsess about
when I go to the gym or what I ate,or what I look like, or this or that.
And I'm like, "yeah,yeah." So the funny thing is, guys,
we don't have to live by those bounds.
And the really cool thingabout the Southern Smash and the Alliance
and the workthat we do overarching with the Alliance,
is that I can go to these collegecampuses.
(13:11):
These students can say,oh gosh, I didn't know I had to, like,
be bound by all of these external factorsthat are defining me.
And then I get to say, but here'sa really cool thing, because the Alliance,
we have free therapist led support groups,we have them six days a week.
These kids can log on from their dorm,from wherever they're apartments,
in their pajamas,and be a fly on the proverbial Zoom wall
(13:32):
and get to hear in that space, "Me too.
I am seen, I am heard,I am worthy of asking for help."
And so I thinkthat's the really important thread
between Southern Smash, that we are loud.
I'm pretty loud as a human,so there's that.
We're smashing scales,and then I get to thread that needle
(13:54):
to them to say, come sit in community,come find your community.
And we had over 30,000 people from over 80countries logging on last year.
So our community is rich and diverseand beautiful.
And these studentsthat some of them are in a care desert,
some of them don't have access to mentalhealth, are able to log on and say,
(14:14):
wait, this is what I've been waiting forbecause that was something
I was waiting for someone to say, it'sokay to not be okay.
You don't have to have it all together,girl.
And that's kind of what we are able to do,especially with our college students
that are under so much pressure,as we know, in this day and age.
You know, this is fantastic, McCall.
And, you know-- I just want to slow downa second and take in what you said.
(14:40):
I love Southern Smash. I'ma southern girl.
I'm born and raisedLouisiana, went to Ole Miss, Hotty Toddy.
And so. I hear that accent coming out.
We're across the country.
You know, we are not just in the South.
We are across the country,in the Alliance. We are national.
So we do serve beyond the South.
But I got to stick to my roots.
So today is the first day, well,yesterday was Fat Tuesday in New Orleans,
(15:02):
and so, what is it.
"Laissez les bons tempsrouler." Laissez les bons temps rouler.
Laissez les bons temps rouler.
Yeah. Let the good times roll.
And I love the Southern Smash.
So when you said mashing scales,do you actually mean that physically
that that'swhat you guys are doing on the grove?
(15:23):
Oh, yeah.
I got one right behind me right there.
It says "Weight does not equal worth."We are taking sledgehammers to scales.
And so. What a visual. What a visual.
That's what I--we are attracting studentsthat would never in a million years
step on to or come and talk tosomeone that works in the mental health,
much less eating disorder realm. Right?
(15:45):
I was at UNC Chapel Hill, this is yearsago, and a group of guys comes up
and I was like, hey,we're here, we're smashing scales,
and they're like, we want to smash scales.
And I was like, okay. And I said,tell me about yourselves.
They said, we're on the wrestling team.
And I was like,okay, you're going to, you're going
to need all the sledgehammers, you know?
And so you forget about every human'sdifferent interaction with what
(16:07):
a scale might mean to them.
But even beyond that,I tell folks that are coming,
we all have something to smash.
We all have somethingthat is weighing us down in our lives
that we need to smash and get rid of.
You might not have a bad relationshipwith a scale. Great.
You have something that you needto smash the heck out of it today.
And so put that down, write it--and we let them write on the scales.
(16:27):
It is tangiblethrough every step of our event
so that they can say,I am smashing this biology.
I'm smashing my parent's expectations,I'm smashing this abusive
relationship,I am smashing whatever it might be,
and to have them continue to think about,like what that really means.
And while it's really fun and jovialand all these things, I've had students
(16:48):
that will DM me on Instagram.
They said, you came three years agoand I wasn't ready,
but I'm ready now and I want to help youbring it to my school.
And so that's the coolest, is thatwhen we get that full circle moment
and we get to pass the baton and empowerothers to pay it forward,
that is like the most amazingpart of my job.
This is so cool.
And as you said, to that person orthat person said to you, I wasn't ready.
(17:12):
Think about you and Alexandra.
Alexandra, 26 and you at 29.
So that's right in--and it's kind of moved up
from the standpoint of she was three yearsfrom that and said, I'm ready now.
So congratulations.
And this goes to somethingwe do. And Alexander I'm coming you next.
But we do NAMI On Campus and NAMIOn Campus is these groups of young people
(17:35):
that, judgment-free zonesfor them to be able to talk.
And we make sure that we give themthe assets, and the resources,
so that they can have these vulnerable,safe conversations
that will actually providea strength to them as they navigate.
So this is fantastic.
So, Alexandra, I want to ask you,what is it like these days?
(17:55):
And, andwith the continued rise of social media,
how are you connecting with young people?
Well, let me just say, first of all,and for anyone listening and watching,
McCall and I have, we've met once,but it's been such a long time
since they've chatted.
And it's amazing that these two programsthat we run, they're very different.
But hearing the feedbackthat you get, hearing
(18:18):
what these students are saying to you,they're so similar in so many ways.
Yeah, totally.
And it's amazing how similarthe narrative is for these students.
We're getting very,very similar messages, feedback.
These programs are so needed.
And, and I can tell youthey're incredibly effective.
And even if it's just onethat's impacted in that audience,
(18:38):
you save a lifeand you really make such a difference.
So it's amazingjust hearing you talk about it.
The PROJECT BLACKBIRD program, how we runthat program, it's storytelling based.
So ours is around a film,and then we have professional athletes
or celebrity actors or influencers,singers, role models of sorts,
speaking in front of these studentsabout lived experience, mental health.
(19:02):
And we pair that with a journal promptthat the students
then fill out anonymously.
They do an anonymous exchangeand we send them home with a past
participant's response.
And then as McCall does as well,there's the direct resource part.
So we provide a full year of coveredtherapy for these, for any of the students
in the audience that need it.
And then this resource fair in the backso that it's less overwhelming.
(19:24):
We connect them with about 15to 20 local and national resources
that are actually specific to them.
And it's so that they can feel seen.
There's not one solution, oneanswer to mental health recovery.
It's different for every person.
But what I think is so importantthat, that McCall mentioned
is, is being able to feel seen.
Seen and understood and connected.
(19:46):
And so we're both creating thisin our respective spaces.
And what we're getting in returnis honesty.
And these, and these reactions.
And similarly, I mean, what I did oneevent for the city of Los Angeles
where I had men coming up to mesaying I didn't realize that, you know,
when I was on set.
And I made it a hard rulethat I couldn't eat between this hour
(20:08):
and this hour, and I wasn't allowed.
And all these messagesthat they didn't realize could be tied to,
and I wasn't there to saythat it was an eating disorder or not
eating disorder,but tied to a poor relationship with food
and with their body and body image.
I--we are now workingalongside the Department of Education
for an HBCU tour.
(20:30):
Seeing in that space,in various different communities.
We work in, with LGBTQIA youth,we hear it.
And that to me, I mean, it's everybody.
Eating disorders and mental health,it does not discriminate.
And what we hear again and againfrom the youth, the experiences.
And I'm at every event, thesekids, these students are coming up to me
in the back of the room.
(20:52):
And yes, they're going to the celebrity,but they're actually going to myself
and the other panelists that feel,I think, more attainable to them.
And they're being honestand they're saying, "I've
never said this out loud,but I think I struggle with x, y, z
or I didn't realize," as McCallsaid, exactly.
"I didn't realize that I, that I struggledwith x, y, z," and so it's allowing them
(21:14):
to be vulnerable and with social media,you mentioned social media.
What I tried to say and addresson the panel, it always comes up
the topic of social media.
It's incredibly dangerous.
And it can be, it candefinitely be something that either sparks
or contributes to a poor relationshipwith food, with your body.
(21:38):
I mean, I still go on all the time,and I have curated
my feed to be different,but I used to get all the time
the this is what I eat in a day.
This is what I,you know, how I work out in the day.
And of course, we're a comparison culture.
We're looking at others.
We're all walking aroundand none of us have the answers.
None of us have any idea of what is right.
We know the best for ourselvesbecause we live in our own bodies.
(22:01):
But sometimes we're confused.
You know, there's a lot of confusingmessaging out there,
but when the topic of social media comesup, it's not going away for the youth.
And so tostand up there and say get rid of
social media is not necessarily realistic.
So how do we actually use social mediain a positive way.
How do we just re-shape and reframethe way we use social media. And
(22:26):
I'm seeing the youth startto actually make those shifts and changes.
And they seem to be looking towardsmore authentic role models,
more authentic heroes and influencers.
And so I do see hope in that.
But yeah, to recap all of that,I think I'm piggybacking off
of what McCall said just before me, butwe're really seeing very similar responses
(22:50):
to this kind of programming.
And I think it's about feeling seen.
It's about connectionand seeing your peers, heroes, role
models, all of the abovejust being honest around mental health.
It's making it saferfor them to be vulnerable.
And they're asking for the help.
And thenthe authenticity of your voice
and McCall'svoice really does make a difference.
(23:13):
And it's peer to peer, and they canresonate with your lived experience.
And it is--that's why they come up to you,when you're on the panel.
And that's why they reach outand speak with you.
We say something at NAMI,people don't care how much you know
until they know how much you care.
And you guys are demonstratingthat on a daily basis.
(23:34):
So, you know, kudos to youfor what you're doing.
And, as I build on thatand looking at it, we, you know,
we want to meet people where they are,but we know that we are so much
of a cosmetic society.
We judge a book by its cover.
We don't get into the table of contentsand the chapters.
And that's what we're talking about herein terms of,
you know, that co-ed or that individual,even the wrestler, the grappler.
(23:58):
"I gotta get down to this weight.
I got to do this.
I got to do that or this." It'sthat and it's the cosmetics.
"I want to look like that versuswhat I look like here."
So it's also building that self-confidenceand you know, using, using platforms
to help, young people navigateall of this is so critically important.
And removing the shame, is so, so cool.
So thank you for that.
(24:19):
We have somethingcalled Ending the Silence.
And I know that you're familiar with that,and it's really right in this wheelhouse
of what you're doing.
So let me ask you this.
As you meet young people and,how do you see social media?
The body image concerns and dietculture show up in your conversations.
And I come from a familythat my wife always says,
(24:41):
oh, yeah, your whole family are foodies.
And it's one of thosecultural kinds of things for her
not being a foodie.
Yeah.
So it's not social media for youngpeople,
but, it's also something to navigate.
So what do you all see?
I mean, I can hop inbecause, you know, with social media
(25:03):
and I think, you know, like Alexandrasaid, it's not going anywhere.
Right?
And we know that there's so much harm.
It's documented. We see it.
And I think there's a place to embrace it.
I really encouragewhen I'm speaking at high schools,
colleges, everywhere in between,you know, I'm a mom, even to other moms.
I'm like, unfollow. Mute, block, unfollow.
(25:25):
Like if that--if you're looking at imagesthat make you--you know,
my barometer in recovery and in life isif something makes me feel less
than, you block, follow,whether it's in real life
or on social media.
And if things are popping up,you can cultivate your feed
like Alexandra was talking about.
And so that's really what I encouragethat-- diversify your feed.
(25:49):
See humans of all body types see human--the Olympics is a perfect example, right?
We're in the middle of the WinterOlympics.
Look at allthe incredible diversity of bodies
doing absolutely phenomenal thingsand looking at those and cultivating
a feed that shows resiliency,diversity, and people being people.
(26:13):
And not chasing lightsand not chasing engagement.
That's what--that'sthe beauty of social media.
I built, when I started SouthernSmash in 2012, I was a one-woman
show, just making it up on the fly like,this is something that's happening
and I've just got to chase this fire.
I built it on social mediaand when it came out, my eating disorder
(26:34):
story came out because a friend--I was writing an anonymous blog
and a friend said--I finally shared an entry with a friend
and she says,you have to let me put this on Facebook.
This is kind of pre-Instagram. I'm older.
And I was like, you're crazy.
Then everybody's going to know I'm crazy.
I went to treatment.
You know I still hadall the stigma attached to it.
Then she said you don't know whoyou might help and the pay it forward
(26:57):
promise I madewhen I left treatment came crawling back
and I was like, "Okay, fine."The next morning I woke up and my Facebook
was blowing up with messages ofthank you for sharing.
I struggled with anorexia, bulimia.
I struggle with, you know, addiction.
I struggle with mental health.
I struggle to be the perfect mom.
And the best message was,thank you so much for sharing McCall.
All those yearswe thought you had it together.
(27:19):
It's so nice to know you did not.
And it dawned on me that nobody wantsto see a curated, perfect life.
We want to see people as we feeland you know, we all have a cross to bear.
We all have a struggle, a burden,and it's so much easier to share that out
loud and together.
And I think that when we can utilizesocial media in that way
(27:41):
to where we are seen and heard and valued,that that can give us a leg up in life
of connecting with folks that we might nothave in our bubble wherever we are
in this moment and in this life,but to really go out and say, oh, like,
just like our alliance support groups.
You're logging on to peoplein different countries
and they're becoming friends and saying,you help me feel seen and heard.
(28:04):
And that is what social media can dowhen used correctly.
But it's up to us to really help kids,you know, college and beyond.
You don't have to follow these people.
And there are tools to helpcurate your feed
to a way that doesn't,you know, harm your mental health.
And sometimes we need a breakand that's okay to.
Curate your feed,unfollow, diversify your feed.
(28:28):
And it shows resiliency.
Thank you.
This is such a wonderful conversation. Andthank you for sharing that.
And you mentioned,as you shared your story
and what it's developed into.
And it didn't-- it wasn't lost on me,30,000 from over 80 countries.
So, you know, kudos to you. Kudos.
(28:49):
So now Alexandra, I want to come to you.
I know your initiative, PROJECT BLACKBIRD,collaborates with NAMI On Campus,
our youth-led mental healthclubs led by students on high school
and college campuses nationwide.
Why do you think it's importantto connect with youth on topics
such as destigmatizing mental health.
(29:10):
For so many various reasons,but one of the reasons
that we really, really, specifically,do a lot of work in the youth space.
Those are the next parentsand the next leaders of our world.
And when you can help change the narrativeand change the mindset of the youth,
(29:33):
they're going to be speakingto their children differently,
whether those childrenare their own personal children
or the world, you know,they're going to be the next leaders.
So they're going to speak about mentalhealth differently. And
it's not that we don't wantto help also somebody who is an adult,
we want to help everybody.
But you can really make,you can make generational change
when you start with the youth.
(29:57):
And the youth are actually so eagerfor the help.
And you know, what I found, honestly,is that when, when we speak with the youth
in the back of the room, what we hear issometimes when the youth are open
and vulnerable to speaking about mentalhealth struggle, we hear, I'm hurting,
I'm hurting, I'm hurting, I'm hurting,I'm hurting, I'm hurting, I'm hurting.
And that's what we hear.
And we're not seeing the, "Whatdo I do about it?"
(30:18):
And then you turn to the generation above,maybe the parent generation
and you hear, "Get over it." Soas we reach
the youth, I try to shape it for them as,"Can we meet in the middle somewhere?"
Can we say, I'm hurting?
I'm strugglingand I'm opening up about it.
I'm being honest about it.
And now how do we get better?
(30:39):
How do we get over it? Per se,but not in a harsh way.
Just how do we get better? How do we heal?
But I do think it's so importantto start with the youth.
And it's also a space,you mentioned earlier--
Both McCalland I ended up in treatment in our 20s.
It reall-- you start to experience a lotat a lot eating disorders,
mental health struggles.
You're seeing your peersand you're determining, where do I belong
(31:00):
in this worldas you're growing up, as you're in middle
school, high school, college.
So it's a space where you can startto rewire those neurons and reframe
the messaging that they're receivingabout themselves and where they belong.
Yeah, change the narrative.
Change the narrative. And empower them.
And empower themto bring their full selves
(31:21):
to their relationshipsinto their, into experiences.
I think there's something powerful too,you reminded me
when you said, empower them.
What I'm seeing, the shift that I'm seeingnow as we grow, we've programmed a lot.
We've, we visited over 50,000 studentsand community members, over 70 schools
we've done now.
(31:42):
And finally, I'm actually startingto see the students ask for it.
I've had, in the past week,I actually had three students email me and
ask if they couldbring this to their school,
if they could volunteer for theorganization, if they could do something.
And that's, I think that's empoweringto me to know
that the students, they do want help.
They want to get better.
(32:02):
They want programming like this, likeboth, McCall's and the one that we run.
It's not one or the other. It'sthey want more.
They just want more.
They want help.
They want, they want advocates.
They want heroes and role models.
They want individuals like usjust being honest.
And they're starting to grow thisfrom the bottom up.
They're voicing their own needs,and they're creating at themselves.
(32:25):
Yeah. And they.
And for them to knowit's okay to not be okay.
And, youknow, speaking of this, and McCall, I'm
gonna come to you, but I wanted to mentionsomething to you about young people.
One day,a young person came to me in the office
and they said, well, I don't want youto take this the wrong way.
I said, well, you know,I think I'll be okay.
And they said, well,you know, we have this HelpLine
and when I call the HelpLine,it sounds like I'm talking to you
(32:47):
or my dad.
And I said, tell me more.
And he says, well,if you really want to help young people,
they need to hear a voiceon, when they call the HelpLine
that sounds like them.
So we tested and then,we beta tested, pilot,
and now we have launched an optionon our HelpLine
that is staffed by youthand is for youth and young adults.
(33:08):
And we're trying to actively listenand make sure that we are collaborating.
So it goes back to what you're sayingand what you guys, both of you are doing.
So congratulations.
And, McCall, I want to come to you.
And I saw that you're,you, highlight embracing
inner uniqueness with the young peopleyou connect with.
(33:28):
Would you share moreabout what that means to you,
and how can that help young people?
Well, I think, you know, growing up,it was always,
okay, we got to check this box, right?
You got you got to get the good gradesin high school.
Then you got to check the boxand get to college,
and you got to check the boxand then get the job.
And so it was all about like,chasing what I was supposed to do.
(33:50):
And I never was given,nor did I ever give myself permission
to figure out what I wanted or who I was.
And I often tell from high schoolto college, you know,
what is it that you want to do?
And a lot of times,and a lot of our groups,
we talk about our recovery "why's."And this is something
(34:11):
that is such a powerfulcoming back into ourselves
after experiencing an eating disorder,where whether, you know,
you are listening to the outside criticsor the inner critics,
what is your recovery "why"?
What is unique about you?
Where do you want to go?
What do you want to do?
And giving studentsand this was part of my journey,
(34:33):
giving myself permission to say,let's embrace me, my goodness.
And to have the ability and the space,because eating disorder and mental illness
takes up so much space in your brain.
But to have that mental freedomto say, "What can I do?
(34:54):
What do I want?"And when I left treatment, you know,
I quit what I thought was my dream job.
I was like,oh wait, that was not my dream job.
And then I was like, I don't know whatI'm going to do, but I'll figure it out.
And then I found myself,you know, creating Southern Smash
and telling my parents, yeah,I'm not going back to work. Instead, I'm
going to start a nonprofit.
We're going to smash scales on,you know, college campuses,
and I'm going to travel the countryand they're like,
(35:17):
well your sister's a doctor.
And I'm like,that's fine. I'll figure it out.
And so really,it's about embracing who you are.
And we're not all supposed to fitin this cookie cutter
doctor, lawyer, this that mold.
Great, kudos. Like good job to my sister.
Good job to all those peoplethat find their passion in that.
But I think a lot of times inespecially in the college arena,
we get caught up in,I got to get into grad school,
(35:37):
I got to get into here,I got to get into this med school
and that, and it's like, wait, did we everpause and say, what is my passion?
What is my fire?
Where are my talents?
And how do I follow that?
How do I feed into that?
Because they're not gonna all lookthe same, they're going to be messy up
and down and all around.
And so it's really about pausingand looking inward to say, what do I want?
(36:00):
Because I can tell youthat throughout all my years
experiencing my eating disorders,I was just cloaked in that shame.
But I looked perfect.
Everything was cookie cutter, perfect.
And then here I am now, sharing a storythat is messy and not perfect
and not pretty.
And I have found myselffeeling the most authentic
(36:23):
and real and vulnerable and worthyand beautiful in my skin than I ever have.
And so I really want others to pausein the rat race
that is life, especially life in the U.Sof going and doing and accomplishing,
accomplished and say, pause,"Where am I?" "Where am I in this?
And what do I want in my life?" You feelso much more connected that way, too.
(36:45):
Actually, if I can piggyback off of that.
Yeah, would you piggyback? Go rightahead, please.
Because that resonates so much with mepersonally, McCall,
and I actually did myself, a lot of work.
And I share thissometimes on panels around uniqueness,
specifically what makes me feel present.
(37:06):
What do I live for when I wake up?
What am I excited about in my dayand what actually keeps me really present?
Not thinking in the future,not thinking in the past.
For me, it's comedy.
I love stand-up comedy,when I'm belly laughing.
I mean, that's it.
I live for that, I live for that.
And also 2000s, early 2000s musicthat's a bizarre one.
(37:28):
But I'll, I'll pop that on.
I think there's like a Class of 2008 radiothat I listen to.
But both of those things keep me present.
That's uniquely me.
And I'll ask that question to a lot ofa lot of the students, you know, what?
What is it that really excitesyou when you wake up throughout your day,
find that uniqueness and then tyingthat back, Dan, to, you asked a question
(37:49):
earlier about, I think it was socialmedia, body image, and diet culture.
And we didn'tget a chance to touch on the other two.
But the, the body image concerns,I actually had, I had a young woman
at a recent event asked me, recentit was Halloween, and she was asking
a very legitimate question.
She said, I'm really scared for Halloweenbecause I have to wear a costume
(38:13):
that shows my bodyand I don't like my body.
And I said, now, wait a minute.
First of all, why?
Why do we feel like we have to showwe have to wear a costume
that shows our bodies,that it has nothing to do with Halloween.
But what I said toher, we had just had the conversation
about uniqueness and I said,I love when Halloween comes around
because I love funny things.
(38:34):
I love getting creativeand finding a costume that's a pun,
something that is-- so I was I was MissClaus one year without Santa Claus.
I was an independent Claus.
If someone didn't get thatand someone didn't think that was quirky
and funny, that I made a grammar joke,they weren't my friend, anyways,
it didn't matter.
So I said to her, get creative,find something--And I also said,
(38:55):
do you remember a single costume fromfive years ago that your friends wore?
No, we're all in here.
We're not paying attention really,to everybody else out here.
They're not paying attention either.
What they might remember is a quirky,funny costume or one that had,
you know, that you really put effort intoand painted.
They're not remembering your bodyand what was shown there.
(39:18):
They're not connecting with your body.
They're connecting with your quirkiness,your uniqueness, your mind,
the conversationsyou're having in that room. And can you
have those conversations in the roomif you're consumed with your body?
Probably not.
So you're disconnecting by focusingon that body
image concern. Yes. It's valid.
Yes, I understand, you know, Dan,you made a great comment earlier
(39:39):
about how we are a cosmetic culture.
We are we're a visual culture.
And that's, and that's real.
But it's not actually formingthe connection that we want.
So we have to acknowledge that andjust be real with ourselves about that.
And what is itthat we really want in this world?
And if it's connection, let's focuson that and what can bring us connection.
(40:00):
Well, you all to helping so many.
And thank you for building on thatand adding such,
rich content to this conversationand showing how much you care.
And I love, what you talked aboutin terms of the body image.
I also love about the inner uniqueness.
Let's focus on the inner uniqueness.
And that, that's powerful.
And, there's so much power in the questionthat you asked that person about, "Do
(40:25):
you remember what you wore forfive years ago for Halloween?"
Yeah, there's so much here.
But what's interestingis that the young people having
the conversation with youso that you can ask them these questions
and get them to feel better about,what they're navigating.
So again, congratulations to you.
It made me think of something.
(40:45):
As we get ready to wrap up,I wrote some words down
that I'm going to share with you.
Care, collaboration, community,and the collective.
The one that I have as an outlieris competition.
What have not heardand what we're not about is competition.
We're about collaboration, communityand the collective.
And it is so cool to be engagingwith both of you,
(41:06):
because in this worldit's such a competitive place.
And right now, our young people need careand collaboration and community,
and that's what you all are bringing.
So I wanted to make sure I said thaton behalf of NAMI and for what you do.
So thank you.
I appreciate it.
And as we wrap up, we have one lastquestion that we ask each of our guests.
(41:31):
And youmentioned the United States
a little while ago, but we say the worldcan be a difficult place, and sometimes
it can be hard to hold on to hope.
So with each episode,we dedicate the last couple of minutes
of our podcast to a special segment calledHold On to Hope.
So I'd like to ask each of youwhat helps you hold on to hope
(41:51):
when you're not smashing those scales,McCall?
Yeah, I love this so much.
This is something that comes upin our alliance groups all the time,
because it is really hard to find hope,especially in this world.
And then when you're strugglingwith an eating disorder.
And one thing that we always talk aboutand one thing that I have experienced
(42:16):
in my own life, when someone told me,"Let me hold the hope."
You know, hope can be heavy.
And so sometimes we need someone elseto hold it for us
until we can come back to it.
And so one thing we talk about in ourin our group says, we will always,
the Alliance will always be thereto hold on, to hope for others.
And for me personally,it's something that I really cultivated
(42:40):
a practice of finding hopein the little ways throughout my recovery
and throughout other life hurdles.
And hope is found not in this, likerainbow glitter pie in the sky.
Hope is found in these tiny, tiny crevicesand the really, really hard times.
And it might be a smile from a nursethat if you're experiencing
(43:02):
something in the hospital,it might be a smile from a barista.
It might be your furry pet.
It might be just the tiniest little thingthat can give you
that little spot of hope.
And if you're in a placewhere it's hard for you to hold onto hope,
remember others can hold it for youuntil you're ready to come back for it.
(43:22):
So that's what we always love to say, isthat we are always here to hold the hope
because we know recovery is possibleand it is always happening.
That is so powerful, McCall.
Alexandra.
Alex, what helps you hold on to hope?
So much going through my brain right now?
And that was so beautifully said, McCall.
I'll take the different angle on it.
(43:43):
Hope generally in the space of mentalhealth and eating disorder, recovery.
But what helps me hold on to hopein that world and that realm
is the generational shift thatthat I've seen happen in my own lifetime.
Even in other impact areas.
And, this is very specific.
But when I was, when I was growing up,when I was in high school, middle school,
(44:06):
if I saw somebody honestly, at that time,if I saw someone throw a McDonald's
bag out the window,I didn't think twice about it.
I probably threw a McDonald'sbag out the window
because that's what everybody was doing.
And in five years,you see somebody throw trash
out of their car windowand your stomach falls out of your body.
I mean, your heart kind of skipped,jumps a beat, and what are they doing?
(44:27):
And they're I mean, there are wordsthat we used to use that
you would never hear out in society now.
And all of that changed infive years or less.
So if that can change in five yearsor less, I have so much hope
for the narrative around mental healthto change dramatically in just five years.
I really think it is,I know it is so possible.
So that's what helps mehold on to hope is I've seen it happen
(44:50):
and we'll see it happen again.
That change is going to happensooner than we know.
Yeah, well, thank you both so very much.
And you know what helps me hold on to hopeis leaders like yourselves who are,
evolving the narrative,changing the narrative, and,
bringing so much care,because you could be working
in other careers, but you've chosen this,and that's because you care.
(45:14):
And that's what helps me hold on to hope.
No one ever asked me in these podcasts,but I wanted to.
I wanted to share thatbecause I've found this to be,
yeah, I found thisto be such a powerful conversation.
So, you know,this has been Hope Starts With Ss,
a podcast by NAMI,the National Alliance on Mental Illness.
Our guests today have been McCall Dempsey,founder of Southern Smash,
(45:36):
part of the National Alliancefor Eating Disorders,
an eating disorder survivorand passionate advocate for recovery.
And Alexandra Miles,founder and CEO of PROJECT BLACKBIRD
that is touring college campusesto address mental health stigma.
Now, if you are looking for mental healthresources, you are not alone.
(45:58):
To connect with the NAMI HelpLineand find local resources,
visit NAMI.org/help.
Text "NAMI" to 62640or dial or punch (800) 950-6264.
Or if you are experiencingan immediate suicide, substance use, or
(46:18):
mental health crisis, please call or text908 to speak with a trained support
specialist or visit 988lifeline.org.
I'm Dan Gillison, your host.
Thanks for listening and be well.
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