September 23, 2025 • 49 mins
Today’s episode is with fellow podcaster and now friend, Nik Hulewsky of Nikonomics - a great show that you should definitely add to your line-up if you’re interested in entrepreneurship. He’s an excellent host and I’ve had the honor of being on his show a couple of times. So I thought I’d turn the table and put him in the hot seat.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to how I Built my Small Business.
I'm Anne McIntee, your host.
Today's episode is with fellowpodcaster and now friend Nick
Huluski of Nickonomics.
He's an excellent host and I'vehad the honor of being on his
show a couple of times, so Ithought I'd turn the table and
put him in the hot seat and puthim in the hot seat.
(00:24):
So I think something thatpeople will wonder, obviously
after they click on your episodeis like who the heck are you?
Who the heck am I?
Who is Nick Hlusky?
Yes, who are you and why do youhave something to offer people?
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Well, that's a great question.
I don't know if I havesomething to offer people.
Hopefully they stick aroundlong enough to make that
decision.
I'm just kidding.
Who am I?
So?
I'm a husband.
I'm a father of five boys, beenmarried for almost 20 years,
serial entrepreneur, mainly withhealthcare experience.
I have operated in home healthand hospice for a long time and
then, in 2020, I decided I wasdone working for other people.
(01:01):
I bought my first business,which was a medical billing
company.
It was a $3 million company andthen I started a home health
and hospice from scratch.
I grew both of those businessesover the next few years, added
different components to themmedical staffing, medical
practice management, home careand we grew the medical billing
company to about a $7 millioncompany and the home health and
hospice to a $15 million company, sold those companies and then,
(01:22):
for the last two years or so,I've just been, I've just been
dabbling.
I've been like a kid in a candyshop, right, I'm like, oh, that
looks tasty, let me try alittle piece of that.
I don't want to learn about CAC.
I've never heard of CAC before.
What's a ROAS?
Wait a second, you.
You can just knock on people'sdoors and get business, so I've
just been exploring and tryingto get to know different
businesses.
I've invested in RV parks.
(01:43):
We have.
I have an e-commerce businessthat used to sell crypto miners
and E-R-S not O-R-S, so theseare not underaged crypto people,
these are machines sell cryptominers to people who are mining
for Bitcoin.
I have a digital agency thatdoes digital marketing for small
businesses.
(02:03):
We have a tree trimmingbusiness in Dallas that just
services the Dallas market.
We launched that as a test.
So, yeah, I got my hands in acouple of different things at
the same time, just because I'mobsessed with entrepreneurship.
I freaking love this game.
It's so fun.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
What, what are?
How are you capable of doingthis much?
Where does okay?
So healthcare obviously is abig part of it.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
It sounds like that brought you two of your first
major windfalls.
So what were you doing beforethat?
So before that, I was workingin healthcare.
I graduated college in 2012.
I was a little older, I was 27at the time and I started late.
I thought I was going to be amusician.
I met my wife and then forthose who can't see me, I'm
doing air quotes we decided Iwould go back to school, and so
(02:51):
I went back to school.
Anyways, I graduated a littlebit later, but as I was
graduating was when theAffordable Care Act was coming
out, and if you remember many ofthe listeners will remember it
was a big deal because now wewere insuring healthcare to
everybody in the country.
We hadn't had that before, andI was a political science and
economics major, so I loved,like this intersection of money
(03:12):
and politics and I thoughthealthcare is a really cool
space to get into.
At the same time, I'd grown upwith a twin sister who's
developmentally delayed she waslike the level of a two-year-old
.
She died a couple of years agoand so I'd seen caregivers come
in and out of the home andprovide a service to us that we
couldn't provide ourselves, andI knew that it was life-changing
to these families.
But I also knew that if I sawblood I would faint, because
(03:34):
just getting my blood drawn tohave it tested at the
physician's office, I getlightheaded.
I have to lay down.
So I thought, what can I do?
How can I get into healthcare?
And my brother-in-law wasworking for this company and he
said, hey, you might want to trythis healthcare thing it's home
health and hospice and I saidsign me up.
And so for the next eight yearsor so, I worked in home health
and hospice.
I worked for a publicly tradedcompany and that that segment of
(03:56):
the business went from 15million to about $150 million in
revenue and I was a part oftheir acquisitions teams.
And then I worked for anothercompany and eventually, by 2020,
I was like you know, I've donethis.
I've helped negotiate, I'vehelped transition, I've helped
turn around a bunch of differenthealthcare locations.
I think I could do this on myown.
I don't know why I'm workingfor other people, and so I made
(04:16):
the leap into entrepreneurship.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
So was that job where you got all of the experience
that you felt you needed inorder to take the leap from
being an employee to then buyinga business?
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Can I tell you the story of getting into it.
I was working for this company.
They had offered me equity andthey were like, hey, 3% equity
in this business.
And I was stoked because I'mlike this could be a million
dollars, $3 million, jess, thisis going to be amazing.
And I sacrificed.
I was gone every single nightduring the week for like two
years.
Well, right before COVID hit,they had done some acquisitions
(04:54):
which put the company injeopardy and there were some
problems not in my region and sothey had to go and raise money.
I didn't know this at the timeand they had come to me about a
month earlier and they said, hey, remember that 3% equity that
you promised, or that wepromised you?
Yeah, we need you to take out aloan.
Um, sign your name, put yourhouse up as collateral and buy
(05:15):
one of our businesses quote,unquote and we're going to use
that money as working capital sothat we can pay off these debts
and figure stuff out.
And I was like, no, that's notthe deal.
Yeah, exactly, I'm like thatwasn't the deal.
I'm good signing my house.
I'm good Like helping thebusiness grow if we're going to
buy something new, but just tolike refinance and play this
(05:37):
shell game so you can haveworking capital.
So I had told them at thatpoint I'm like I'm not
comfortable with that and I wantsomething with equity.
So we need to figure somethingout.
And if we can't do somethinglong-term with equity, then I'm
going to move on, but I'm notputting you guys in the lurch.
So they're like, okay, this wasaround Christmas.
So my wife is pregnant, greatlypregnant.
She's going into labor.
And I get a call from one ofthem that that morning and they
(05:58):
was like that's freaking weird,february 19th, 2020.
And I was like, jess, theywanted to meet for lunch.
She was like, well, you knowwhat Contractions are?
Far apart, just go meet them.
This is our third kid at thetime, so you know, she kind of
knew the rodeo, so I got it.
So I go to lunch and I'm meetingwith them and they fire me
(06:21):
because they went out and raisedmoney and they needed, they
needed to cut costs.
And the private equity fundthat was investing in them was
like, well, he's not stayinglong-term, you need to cut costs
because you can't even makepayroll.
So fire him.
And I'm, and they came and theyfired me and I'm like, oh, okay
, well, how long are you givingme?
And they're like, oh, till theend of the month?
(06:42):
I'm like it's February 19th,guys, my wife's giving birth
right now.
Yeah, now, they were in a verydifficult position.
I've come to empathize withthem a lot more in subsequent
years, but in the moment I wasfreaking pissed.
I was like are you freakingkidding me?
My wife's in labor, you fight,you're firing me.
And now what am I supposed todo?
(07:02):
Like you're firing me because Iwas upfront with you about I
need more equity.
It turned out to be the bestthing that ever happened to me,
anne, because February 19th 2020, what happened right after
February 19th 2020?
Covid, the world, shut down,yeah, yeah.
And so I got to be home with mylittle baby right after he was
born for months, and had I beenin healthcare, still, I would
(07:24):
have been going crazy.
I would have been working likecrazy and managing these
operations and you know, godbless all the people who worked
hard during COVID and wereactually providing care.
I just know it would have beena nightmare for me and my family
.
So I got very lucky in that Iwas fired in that moment because
I got to spend time with my sonand I got to negotiate this
business that I was looking at.
So I had already startedlooking for a business and I
(07:47):
decided to look even harder.
I found this business it was amedical billing company and I
started having negotiations withthem and we started moving
quickly.
But I think your question wasthat was my long-winded answer.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
How did you find it?
Where were you looking?
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Great question.
So at the time my thesis was Ireally liked tailwinds and you
and I have talked about thisbefore I like like big macro
changes.
So I had this criteria.
I knew that I wanted to buy ahealthcare company because I'd
had experience in healthcare andit just seemed like a no
brainer to me Find a healthcarebusiness and and and blow it up
because you know what you'redoing there.
The second piece was I wanted tomove to a market that was
(08:24):
growing faster than the rest ofthe United States.
So I was looking at markets inlike Arizona, utah, idaho,
colorado, et cetera, like okay,cool, so healthcare market
that's growing Great.
And I wanted to find somethingthat was not patient serving.
So I wanted to be a vendor tohealthcare operators, but I
(08:46):
didn't want to be the actualoperator themselves, so that
leaves kind of like back officesolutions.
So I decided, all right, cool,I'm going to find something in
this medical practice managementspace in one of these markets
that's in healthcare, cause Ican leverage my experience that
way.
Luckily, I had experiencefinding deals, um, and so I
really just went to thatplaybook.
I was like I'm going to reachoff market to the companies that
(09:07):
I've identified, because I hadalready identified this really
like narrow criteria businessesI wanted to buy.
I just looked up that list andstarted reaching out off market
to individuals and havingconversations with them.
One of them happened to be aperson who was thinking of
selling and, uh, her and I builta really good relationship and
that's that's how I found thebusiness.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
So you're you cold contacted businesses to see if
they were available for sale.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Correct, yeah, and it wasn't like a mass cold contact
.
What I would do is I would getthe list and then I would go and
research them.
I'd look on LinkedIn, I'd gettheir background profile.
I'd see like, are they in theage range where they might be
retiring?
I gave them a message of likehey, I'm moving to Boise.
I have all this healthcareexperience.
I've seen you've operated inthis space.
(09:51):
I'd love to just have aconversation with you.
So it went from just this youknow cold call.
Oh, private equity fund isyou're trying to do a rollup to
this guy seems nice.
He's got a family.
Oh, he's got boys.
They're moving to Idaho.
He's got healthcare experience.
Oh, this, this actually mightwork out.
I am kind of thinking aboutretiring.
So those messages tend to havea much higher response rate.
(10:12):
But you have to do a lot morework to qualify the type of
business in the geography,tailor the message and really be
a person to them when you reachout.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
So you didn't have a broker working for you, you
weren't going to networkingevents, you weren't doing
anything else to find these, itwas your own research.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
I've never bought a business on market and it's not
advice I would give to a firsttime buyer.
I think you do need to gothrough the process of working
with a broker, Even if you findthe business off market, go find
a broker, because you haven'tgone through the due diligence,
you don't know what red flags,yellow flags are.
I had had all that experiencewith the healthcare companies
that I worked for in the past.
I had already done dozens oftransactions before I had done
(10:52):
the due diligence.
I had found them, I negotiatedthe LOI, I had worked on
financing all that stuff.
I just had never done it myself, like by myself.
So I I kind of knew what I waslooking for, but um no, I didn't
.
I didn't go through brokers.
I think brokers are great forgetting your reps in and for
getting a lot of experience, butfor me I kind of had already
known how to do it and you hadthe experience.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Yeah, I was very lucky for anyone who's listening
, though, it's good advice thatthey should go and seek a broker
, because there are so manysteps in the process and if you
don't know what you're doing,you can you could really get
fleeced.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Have you ever bought a business with a broker?
Speaker 1 (11:25):
We've sold businesses only with brokers.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
You sold business with a broker.
That is so funny.
I did the same thing.
I've never bought a businessthrough a broker, but I've never
sold a business without one,not through a broker.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Okay, so let's talk the numbers a little bit.
How much cash did you have tohave down?
How much was?
Speaker 2 (11:49):
the business.
What did the numbers need tolook like?
What did the potential of thebusiness need to have in order
for you to want this deal to gothrough?
Yeah, I was looking forbusinesses that were at least in
the mid teens of a net marginor cash flow.
So 15% net income For some ofyour listeners they may be like
that's really low.
For me, coming from healthcare,like home health.
Margins were 8%, right, so 15%seemed like the promised land to
me.
So I needed to find a businessthat was net netting 15% a year.
(12:09):
I needed to have some scaleassociated with it so that it
could support my salary plussome cushion.
So when I was looking, I wantedto have a business that could
do at least $600,000 a year.
That was the number that I cameto at least $600,000 a year in
net income at a 15% margin,before I'd even look at it.
(12:31):
And then from there, themultiples.
I won't say they.
They didn't matter to me.
They did matter to me.
It was more about a debtservice coverage ratio.
So you can look at multiplesall day long, but the truth is
that's just what other peoplehave paid for those businesses.
What you really want to look atis what is my debt service
coverage ratio?
So if a business is spittingoff $600,000 a year in cash
flows, if it's my first business, I want to have at least a debt
(12:54):
service coverage ratio of 1.5.
And so what that means is mydebt on that business will be
$400,000.
So my, my debt payments to thebank paying off the note will be
$400,000.
1.5 times that 400,000 would be$600,000 in net income.
(13:16):
So all of a sudden, because Iknew what my margin wanted to be
, because I had created thisnumber of $600,000 of net income
, I also now knew what my maxsort of debt obligation could be
, this $450,000 number.
This is funny, I haven't donethis exercise in like five years
, so hopefully my numbers areright.
Um, and then from there I waslike okay, $450,000, working
with a bank, I can probablyafford up to a $4 million
business, and then that.
(13:37):
So that was my range in in sortof deciding the size and scope
of the business.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
How much of a down payment did you need in order to
secure the financing?
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Um, so the SBA at the time the the rules are 10% that
I have to come down with.
So most bank financing I haveto come down with 20%, but
through the SBA it's a greatprogram I can come up with 10%.
So I was thinking all right, ifI'm going to do a $4 million
deal, I have to come up with atleast $400,000.
(14:10):
Now, I didn't have $400,000 atthe time, but I had.
We had sold our home.
So we we bought our home in2015, market went crazy, it
appreciated and we had about$200,000 of equity that we had
built up in the home.
So I thought, all right, I got$2,000, $200,000 there.
I could probably raise friendsand family money for the other
$200,000 if I needed to go up tothat $4 million mark.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Okay, but it sounds like you said, if so, you didn't
do that.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
I didn't.
No, I didn't.
I was very lucky I found thisbusiness.
We started negotiating In themiddle of the negotiations I
found out it's not a loopholebut it is a way that the SBA
gets around it.
The SBA, the 10% down rule,isn't actually 10% of your cash
down, it's a 10% equityinjection.
And the way that they willcount the equity injection is
(14:52):
either cash or other contributedequity.
And if you structure a sellernote so if I go to the seller
and I say, hey, your business is$5 million, I'll pay you $4
million down Will you carry amillion dollars of this purchase
price?
That's a seller note.
If you structure that sellernote in a way where you don't
make any payments on it untilthe SBA is paid off, they will
consider that million dollars,or at least a portion of that
(15:14):
million dollars, as contributedcapital and they will allow for
an additional 5%.
So you can get into a businessfor kind of as little down for
your first business as 5% down.
If you've got a structured theright way, your second business,
you can get in for as little as0% down because you're
effectively using your currentbusiness as leverage.
But um, that's, that's how Idid it, so I actually only
(15:37):
needed to put down see what wasthe math about $180,000.
I still did take some friendsand family money, um, but
personally I think we put in ahundred of that 180,000.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
And you got a close to $4 million business.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
We got a $3.2 million business.
Yeah, yeah, so we've got a $3.2million business.
The bank underwrote it at about$450,000 of EBITDA but, um, I
was looking at it and I was likeno, this business could do like
seven or 800,000, just becauseof my pattern recognition from
what I had seen before.
There's a lot of owner stuffthat was being run through the
(16:13):
business.
Anyways, there's a lot of fatthere.
So I felt comfortable jumpinginto the business, even though
the multiple quote unquote washigh, because I knew that our
debt was covered and I knew itwas a great business.
So, yeah, I got in a $3.2million business doing $450,000
a year on paper in net income.
Thankfully, my thesis was rightwe, we, they were doing
probably closer to 700 when wemade some of those changes.
(16:35):
So it was the type of businessthat we needed and, uh, we got.
I got in for less than ahundred thousand dollars of my
own money.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Okay, so what was it really like when you closed on
that business, though?
Like what?
How many people were on theteam?
What were the hardest parts?
What did you not expect?
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Okay, this is where it gets even crazier.
And I was moving to Boise.
I was buying this business.
It was a medical billingcompany.
My brother-in-law, nick, owns alarge skilled nursing facility
company and he was like, hey, ifyou're moving to Boise, let's
start a home health and hospicetogether, because we have all
these skilled nursing facilities.
We discharge these patientshome, they go home on home
(17:08):
health and hospice.
We should capture that business.
And you have home health andhospice experience, nick.
So I'm like I would love to, butI'm buying this medical billing
company, so I can't really doit.
And after talking a lot we were.
I was like, well, I can get myother brother-in-law to come up
and run this medical billingcompany.
Oh, I did so many things that,like, break the rules.
(17:28):
I always say like, don't hirean operator.
And that's exactly what I didanyways.
So we brought, we brought myother brother-in-law up.
He ran the medical billingcompany and then I started right
away building this home healthand hospice from scratch.
Yeah, yeah.
So literally, literally, weclosed on the medical billing
company in July.
(17:49):
I was already like working onthe home health and hospice full
time when we closed on themedical billing company, so I
really wasn't at the medicalbilling company foreclosed Like
I wasn't there to meet the newteam.
I wasn't like the owner and Ihad a great relationship and I
knew some of the leadership team, but that was my brother-in-law
who was running that businessand so he was there meeting
everybody.
Um, looking back, I don't knowthat it was the smartest thing,
(18:13):
but it did work out for us.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
No hiccups.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
I mean that's a great question.
There were hiccups down theroad.
I didn't pay enough time andattention to that business
because down the road issuescame up which which then kind of
got me to a place where I'mlike we need to sell this
business.
And I think that had I beenrunning that business full time,
I would have never sold thatbusiness.
Um, but I got scared.
I guess I was like uh, ratesare going up, it feels like
(18:40):
we're on some shaky ground.
Healthcare is changing.
I don't really know thislandscape that well.
It felt like I was having tomake a bet again on this
business and I just decidedlet's just sell it.
And so we sold it and it wasgood.
I mean, it was the year that wesold it.
It did like $1.3 million in netincome, so the business grew
significantly.
But I think if I had been thereday to day and just had known
(19:02):
it intimately, I wouldn't havefelt scared and I wouldn't have
sold out of a place of fear.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
Interesting, but your time and energy was occupied
with the other business, so yousold both of these businesses
within a span of like threeyears.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Yeah, I sold the medical billing company.
We sold in two years and then ayear later sold the home health
and hospice.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Okay, so, and I don't know what you're comfortable
revealing, but what did you walkaway with and what have you
done with that money?
Speaker 2 (19:27):
Oh, and buy a guy's drink first, hey, you tried.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
You tried to ask me how much I sold my business for,
and I was like I'm not actuallyallowed to talk about that.
And then you tried again and Iwas like nope can't do it.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
One of the companies we sold to a publicly traded
company and then the othercompany we sold to a private
equity fund.
So I can't tell you, I'm goingto pull you.
I can't tell you the exactdollar amounts but I will say
not eight figures, mid sevenfigures is sort of like where
the walk away range comes in.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
And when you say that you wished you hadn't sold that
first business, what do youthink it would be worth today?
Speaker 2 (20:06):
I actually don't think it would be worth a lot
more than it was back then,because asset valuations were
just nuts.
The reason I say that Iwouldn't sell it or that I wish
I hadn't sold it is just becauseit's consistent.
I was spitting off a milliondollars a year.
Healthcare continues to growfaster than inflation and the
rest of the economy.
These physicians need theservices that we were providing,
like it wasn't going away, andso from that perspective, it was
(20:30):
just a great business.
It was a consistent businessand looking back, I'm like
you're a dummy for selling that.
That's more of why I think ofit.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
I don't think it'd be worth way more money, but I do
think that it would just stillbe doing what it was doing.
It was, it was stable and itwould have been relatively easy
to keep it.
Okay, so you have your hands inall of these other things.
I mean, you said the tree treebusiness in Dallas.
Yeah, so are you just like?
You know people, other peoplethey shop on, like Amazon, and
you're just like what businessam I going to buy today?
Speaker 2 (21:02):
I'm going to buy it today.
I'm going to buy a business inDallas.
Okay, at first I think you canprobably resonate with this when
you go through this period oftime so from 2012 until 2023, I
was just like heads down, lockedin to what I was doing, first
working for other companies andthen running my own businesses
and so when I sold thosebusinesses, it was like the
first time where I could everpick my head up and think what
(21:23):
do I want to do?
What am I interested in?
And I went a little hog wild.
I'll admit that I spent toomuch money on a bunch of
different projects, but I reallywas like a kid in the candy
shop, cause I'm like I don'tknow what.
All these other businesses SAS,I've heard SAS is cool.
Oh, home services, that'sreally cool and so I actually
didn't buy a bunch of businesses.
The only business I reallybought was this RV park.
(21:45):
The rest of them were just kindof started from scratch or
incubated and, um, it reallyjust came because my, my best
friend and I have shiny objectsyndrome and we think this might
be a cool business to test.
Oh, nick, you've got some cashright now, let's throw some
money at on it, and so that'skind of what we did over the
next two years.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
We so I bought an rv park tell us quickly, like, give
us like, with the one minuteoverview of the rv park, like
where is it?
What'd you buy it for?
Does it cash flow?
What?
Why did you buy it?
Speaker 2 (22:10):
okay, oh, this is great.
It's not as good as you think.
Uh, this, this rv park was intexas and we found it off market
.
My, my friend, friend Chris, isa deep into the mobile home
park space.
So we find it off market,significantly undervalued by it,
for $300,000.
And we're like, oh man, with,if we change some rents here, we
(22:33):
can get it to be a $1.2 millionpark.
So at the time it was cashflowing about $30,000 a year.
We thought, back of theenvelope, we can get it to like
a hundred thousand dollars ayear, right, so that's, that's a
really big swing.
And then if you, if you're like, all right, the cap rate, which
is how these parks are valued,if the cap rate's like eight or
9% or even 10%, we've got atleast a million dollar park.
(22:53):
So it made a lot of sense.
So we buy the park, we make thechanges, we increase the rents
and things are going swimmingly.
It wasn't doing a hundredthousand, cause we hadn't
reached max occupancy, but itwas.
It was doing about $7,000 amonth.
So it was like, on its waythere, what is that $84,000 a
year run rate?
And then the city sent us aletter and said you're not up to
(23:14):
code and you haven't been up tocode for years.
And we're like wait, what thefreak.
And this was, yeah, like now Iknow, if you're ever buying a
freaking rv park or mobile homepark, go check with the freaking
city to make sure that there'sno outstanding items on that
park.
Uh, so anyways.
So we missed that in duediligence and the park we had to
(23:35):
kick all the tenants out endedup coming back.
We had to put I don't know acouple hundred thousand dollars
into the park.
It ended up being a headacheand I was.
I just don't even want to dealwith it.
So we sold the park.
Uh, we didn't lose any money onit.
We bought it for 300 and soldit for like 350.
So we made a little bit ofmoney on it, but it would have
been cool.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
I mean, like the plan was cool, it was executed the
right way, but apparently itdoesn't translate to other
industries.
We all make mistakes.
We all make really bad mistakes.
As you were talking, I was justthinking about all the
different mistakes that I'vemade in my career and in our
business journey and it's likeno, you just, but you would.
(24:13):
You would have learned so muchfrom that process.
So are you going to buy anotherRV park, or is it no longer a
possibility?
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Oh I, would absolutely buy another RV park,
a hundred percent.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely,I'd buy an RV park, but I will
buy it only by an RV park Ifit's with somebody who wants to
actually operate it, like thatwas.
The problem is like neitherChris nor I were going to go
operate it and so then when itcame out like oh, we got to do
all this crap to it.
We're like looking at eachother like who's going to?
You know the spider-man meme itwas like, are you gonna go?
(24:41):
Am I gonna?
What are we?
So, um, yeah, I'd only be withsomebody who is operating it or
with, like a fund who hasmultiple parks and they have an
infrastructure in place, um, orif it was really close to me and
I could go and actually kind ofmanage the park myself.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
But yeah, I still love, I think they're amazing
real estate once you get one,it's like everybody comes
knocking and says, hey, I've gota deal, are you interested?
So it's an interesting sort ofinsular space in a sense that
like they're amazing businesses.
Yeah, you get in the door andthen you realize there's a whole
world of you guys out there.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
So here's what's crazy I love these businesses
because of the real estatefunction of it.
And I just had this guy Italked to this guy on my podcast
who is buying car washes.
I didn't know this.
So if you buy if you buy a RVpark, for example, if I buy it
for a million dollars I get todepreciate a lot of that.
So I have like accelerateddepreciation so it lowers my
(25:32):
taxes, but only if I'm a realestate professional.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
That's the only way it works.
So I've got like 500, $600,000in passive losses right now
sitting there that I've had foryears because I don't have
passive income to offset.
Yeah, it's freaking great.
I was thinking I'm like, ohcool, I'm going to get all this
depreciation.
And then my CPA was like, uh,yeah, that does.
That's not how it works.
You don't have passive income.
So, freaking screwed myself onthat.
But car washes I didn't knowthis since they're a business,
(25:58):
you get the real estate, you getthe accelerated depreciation
and it's not passive incomebusiness.
Car washes you can activelydeduct from your taxes.
And the reason I love realestate so much is because if you
have a high margin businesslike you did with your Christmas
lighting business and you'vegot these high cash flows coming
in, you can just take thatmoney redeployed into real
estate.
If you're not sitting in anactual asset, not a services
business, you can depreciatethat asset, you can offset your
(26:21):
taxes, you can have more cashavailable, you can invest into
your business, you can grow evenmore and then put those cash
back into real estate.
So it's like this amazing,virtuous flywheel that can lower
your taxes but also allow youto grow real wealth and I say
real wealth purposefully,because I think you cannot have
long-term wealth without realestate and that's why I love RV
(26:42):
parks, but the car washbusinesses in particular,
because they have that taxcomponent that can really
accelerate things.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Or you can just become a real estate
professional.
I am a real estate professional.
It is not that hard.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
No no.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
Go and get your agent's license your agent's
license, literally.
You could take a course onlineand get your agent's license,
find a broker that will let youhang your license with them and
then make sure that you manageyour real estate assets.
For I think it's I forget it'slike 600 or 700 hours a year or
something that you dedicatetowards the management of your
own real estate.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
I'd rather do it the hard way.
I'd rather do it the hard way,just kidding.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Okay, so the Arbor business, so the Arborist
business, a tree trimmingbusiness down in Dallas.
How did you get this started inDallas?
Why Dallas?
How do you manage your crewfrom a distance?
What are you doing with thatbusiness?
What's the point of it?
Like you said, you were doingit kind of as a test model.
So get us into your brain.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
All right.
So Chris and I, we've been bestfriends.
He you may have seen him theKerner office.
He has his own podcast.
He's growing like crazy.
But that guy has never workedfor anybody in his life.
He's been.
He's the consummate serialentrepreneur.
And so when I had this exit, Iwas like Chris, what can we do?
Let's do something fun.
And so we decided to launchthis thing called co-founders,
(28:02):
which is let's partner withcollege students who have ideas,
like we have the capital andthe knowledge.
They have some ideas and thework ethic and let's partner
with them and fund them.
It'll be really cool.
It was really cool for a coupleof projects.
It turns out you need a lotmore money than I had in order
to make something like that work.
But one of the ideas that camefrom it was this kid, james
(28:22):
freaking amazing graduated fromBowling Green and he was like
hey, I'll move to Dallas, I justwant to do a business with you
guys.
And we thought tree trimmingseems really cool.
Chris had launched a treetrimming business with a friend,
or helped a friend launch atree trimming business years
earlier through these likecreative growth hacks, and so we
knew that we could generatedemand and so like, let's test
it.
(28:43):
And so James came out.
James is operating the businessand I put some money behind it
and we just went with it andeffectively what we've turned
into is a lead generationcompany that subs out all of the
actual business.
So James answers the calls, hegoes on site, he quotes the jobs
, he responds to Angie's list,thumbtack, jobber's, the system
that he uses, google, lsa, allof those systems.
(29:03):
We've also used mailers,texting software, any and all
automations that you can thinkof.
But the gist is, if you canincrease that speed to lead, if
you can respond really quickly,you're going to win business.
So James responds reallyquickly, does the quotes and
then he's got a bunch of peoplethat he subs these jobs out to.
So we don't actually own anyequipment.
(29:24):
Yeah, yeah, it's.
Eventually it's probably betterif for margins, if you own all
that stuff.
But we were like we don't wantto buy a truck, we don't want to
buy, you know, stump grinders,we don't want to buy all this
heavy equipment in order for usto do the true chairman business
.
So let's just find people whoare already doing that service,
use that sub network to.
The fulfillment will be thelead generation and we'll
(29:46):
collect the margin between.
So that business is not huge.
It does, I want to say seven to$800,000 a year in top line
revenue, probably in theballpark of one to $200,000 a
year in bottom line performance,if we were taking money out.
But we're not.
Everything's just beingreinvested into the growth of
that business.
So that's where it is today andit was a test because we were
(30:09):
like, could we get into homeservices?
And so we wanted to test it.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
So you don't technically own a tree trimming
business.
You own a lead generationbusiness that has a niche in
tree trimming.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
But you are.
Are you thinking of trying toexpand this into other markets,
like, are you going to try to dolead generation and, like you
know, lawn care and windowwashing and this is going to
become a huge lead generationbusiness, or is this?
This was just a case study andyou've done it, and that's
enough.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
It's that it was a case study.
We've done it and that's enough.
As you know, there is noshortage of good opportunities.
So could we do that?
Yes, we could do that, butthere's a lot of operational
complexity and executional riskthat that would have to happen
in order for that business to besuccessful.
So we just wanted to see, couldwe do it?
Like we think there's all theseboomer businesses that are being
(30:58):
sold and the valuations arestupid high and we're looking at
this like, well, what do theyactually do?
They're just really likegetting leads and doing the
fulfillment.
I think we can do the same ifwe just figure out a way to get
the leads.
And so we you know that's whatwe did Angie's list, thumbtack,
google, lsa and then we've gotsome programmatic SEOs.
We built out our website sothat we're getting a lot of
leads from the website.
(31:18):
Google business profile isoptimized.
We did some gray hacking, grayhat stuff in texting finding
information for contractors inthe local market, texting them
to get business, et cetera.
So we launched that business.
So it was more of a test to seelike, could we do it?
And yes, we could do it, but no, we're not looking to replicate
it in other markets.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
But you're not going to.
It's not.
It's not worthy enough of yourtime and efforts to go beyond.
Do you want to hear somethingcool?
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Yeah, so if you go on Twitter and you're probably not
on Twitter, but there are theseguys who do stump grinding, so
there's a stump grinding crazeright now.
All right, chris and I did apodcast a year ago where we
talked about stump grinding,where we were like we think
someone could start a stumpgrinding business because of our
experience with the treetrimming company.
We're like, yeah, where we werelike we think someone could
start a stump grinding businessbecause of our experience with
the true trimming company, we'relike, yeah, and this is how
you'd launch it.
(32:02):
And we gave the exact playbookof how we launched the true
trimming business Just gave itout there, we talked about it,
gave it for free, and this thisone guy was like I think I could
do that and he's done $250,000in his first year after quitting
his job.
Like that's net to him and itspawned like 10 other of these
stump grinding guys.
So it's like that has beensuper gratifying to see.
(32:24):
Like not only did it work forus and true trimming, but we
just talked about it and thesepeople listened to it and were
like we think we can do that.
And and now I can't you know, Ican't get through a Twitter
without seeing a bunch of stumpgrinders in my feed.
But it makes you feel good.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
And you changed someone's life.
And my husband literally renteda stump grinder the other day
and ground a bunch of stumpsaround our property, Dude
they're amazing.
Okay, but so now you have themoney from your exits, you've
got these little side projectsthat you're dabbling in.
What are you really workingtowards?
So you want co-founders tobecome kind of like.
Is this like a businesssyndicate type of concept?
Speaker 2 (33:02):
So, to be honest with you, that's what I thought I
was going to do and I've beendabbling and messing around and
the kid in the candy shop.
But where I have recently comeback to is I was trying to do
like everything else, like Isaid, I'm like, oh, what's CAC
and what's SAS and what'swhatever home services.
And I finally got to the placewhere I was like my experience
has been in healthcare I knowthat better than probably 99% of
people who have operated inthat space why would I pivot now
(33:26):
, like why would I pivot nowinto vending machines or a home
services business?
I could I'm not saying I can't,but like it just seems like I
would lose a lot of thatcompounding knowledge.
And so two months ago I decidedwith my brother-in-law, who
still has the Skoll NursingFacility Company, that what we
are going to do is focus onbringing a lot of these really
(33:49):
good ideas from other industriesinto the healthcare space,
because healthcare is antiquated.
It is super old school.
If you think that what you'redoing is old school, go look at
the back office of a healthcarecompany and you'll be still.
They're still like billing onpaper.
It's because they're mandatedby the government to have
patient records for seven to 10years.
You know what I mean.
So, anyways, they're veryantiquated and as I've been
(34:12):
having more conversations withentrepreneurs, I'm like that's
really interesting, that pricingmodel.
Why don't, why don't we do thatin healthcare?
Oh, that's really interestingthe way you acquire customers
through Facebook ads.
Why don't we do that inhealthcare?
Oh, ai we don't even talk aboutthat in healthcare because
everyone's afraid of HIPAA.
And where he and I came to waslike we should start a venture
studio.
He has a company that has 5,000employees, 8,000 patients, 60
(34:34):
facilities that we can then testthese ideas within as like an
incubator idea and let's see ifwe can change the healthcare
space that we're operating in.
Let's see if we can actuallybring all of that knowledge and
all that skillset to make aneffective change in this market.
So that's that's what I'm doingright now.
I'm pivoting, I'm trying toshut down all of the
distractions, um, but as youknow, it's not super easy to
(34:55):
just shut them down overnight.
So I'm trying to shut all thosedown and just go all in on
healthcare and improving theexperience both for the patient
and for the employee in thehealthcare space.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
I feel like your ADD just went zhink and your brain
is just like fully coherent now,like it all makes sense, right,
right, because it's like thedistractions and oh, I'm going
to do stop grinding and all this, but you do talk with a lot of
very fascinating entrepreneurs,so it's really hard to shut it
down entirely.
But yeah, why wouldn't youfocus on healthcare?
(35:27):
You know the space you clearlyhave a passion for it from your
own experience and healthcare isonly growing.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
It's only growing, the demand for it's only growing
, the spend on it is onlygrowing, the problem set is only
growing, like we don't know howwe're going to fund all these
liabilities in the future.
So there's a ton of things thatwe need to fix and solve within
healthcare and that's what Iget excited about.
So, for example, just buildingsimple tools using AI can save
one or two full-time employees,or simple tools can help a
(35:59):
patient get better experienceand we can lower the cost of
that patient being treated by 20, 30%.
Well, what happens if we'reable to do that system wide?
Now we're able to do 20 to 30%more with the same amount of
dollars, as the government iscutting our reimbursement and as
patients are demanding more andmore care and we're getting
less and less workers into thespace.
So there's this really cool coolis the wrong word there's this
(36:20):
really complicated problem setthat needs to be solved within
healthcare, and if you're inhealthcare, like I was, you
don't necessarily have the toolsnecessary to solve them,
because you're the one who'skind of contributed to creating
the problem.
I don't mean that in a negativeway, but you just, you just
don't know any better.
And that's why I'm excited nowis because I feel like, oh cool,
I've kind of like found somedifferent tool sets.
Let's see if we can make achange.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
Okay, let's say somebody is listening and
they're thinking well, I'dreally like to get involved in
the healthcare space as well andfind my own little sliver niche
where I can provide somethinguseful as a business.
Yeah, so one complaint I hear alot of healthcare professionals
complain about constantly isthat when they go home at the
end of the day, professionalscomplain about constantly.
(37:02):
Is that when they go home atthe end of the day, they still
have all of their what do theycall them?
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Charting notes documentation.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
They have all of their charting, notes and
documentation and what a slog itis and how, as you're saying,
antiquated it is.
Let's say that a person sitsthere and they're like I'm just
going to start writing downevery problem that I see in the
healthcare system that needs asolution.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Then what yeah?
Speaker 1 (37:21):
As an entrepreneur, someone who's done this, what do
you think they do next?
Speaker 2 (37:25):
Dude, I love this question.
This is my favorite question.
It all comes back to knowyourself what are you good at?
What are you not good at?
What's your superpower?
What are the things that youfreaking suck at?
So the problem set is only oneside of the equation.
The other side of the equation,the other side of the equation
is you, and what are youuniquely suited to solve.
(37:45):
So healthcare is such a big andbroad category that almost any
experience that you have can beapplied to that space.
You're not necessarilyproviding care to patients, but
you're serving the healthcareindustry, which is growing like
crazy.
So if I were an entrepreneur, Iwould first look at what do I
know really well?
Am I a coding engineer?
Do I understand dataarchitecture?
Am I a massage therapist?
(38:06):
Am I somebody who has a lot ofexperience managing teams and
people Like, what are you reallygood at?
And then you can look at howdoes that apply to these
different problem sets withinthe healthcare space?
Because all the things that wecurrently do outside of
healthcare still needs to bedone within healthcare.
If you're an engineer thatcreates plans or like design for
(38:27):
buildings, well, guess what?
There's healthcare specificdesign that needs to be
implemented in order for ahospital to meet certain
standards and regulations.
If you're a massage therapist,well guess what.
These patients need massagetherapy as well, so I would take
it from that.
Speaker 1 (38:40):
You could basically layer anything on top of the
healthcare space.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
Anything, anything on top of the healthcare space.
Now there are probably somethings where you're like well, I
don't know if this necessarilytranslates, but I promise there
is something in your skillsetthat can easily translate to
having value within healthcare.
Here's a perfect example.
A friend of mine works for alarge healthcare company.
He doesn't know the first thingabout diagnosis.
(39:03):
He's not a clinician, but whathe is is he knows how to write
SQL code, and so he manages SQLdatabases exceptionally well.
Well, what's really important inhealthcare right now?
We have a ton of data out there, but how do we extract value
from it?
How do we identify patients whoare high risk?
How do we see that they'repotentially going to the
hospital before they know thatthey're going to the hospital?
Well, unless we have someone toactually play translator
(39:26):
between all of the data andmaking these inferences by
architecting some datainfrastructure, we can't do it.
But that's my friend.
He works for a large healthcarecompany and that's all he does
is he sits and writes SQL codeto make sure the databases are
managed to the point where wecan actually extract valuable
information.
So, yeah, I would say any skillset that you have is applicable
to healthcare.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
Okay, let's say someone like him, though he
doesn't want to work for acompany, he wants to take his
expertise and he wants toactually start a business.
What if the person doesn't havebusiness experience?
Are you pro partnerships?
They go and find someone thathas that skill set, or do you
think they need?
Speaker 2 (40:03):
to go in get some education.
How can they becomeentrepreneurs?
Yeah, I think there are twotypes of entrepreneurs.
Well, there's probably aspectrum, but there's like
hustlers, that's probably you.
You're probably in the hustlercategory where you're just like
you were always thinking abouthow can I flip this to make a
buck?
That's not me.
And then there's people who aremore thoughtful and like I want
to do entrepreneurship, but Idon't feel like I have the skill
set.
To the hustlers I would say veryeasily pick a high ticket
(40:26):
service, focus on marketing.
That's where I would focusfirst in like driving value that
way, and then, um, market, you,market to those practitioners.
So let's just say, physicaltherapy clinics All right,
that's a high ticket service.
I'm going to go help them withtheir digital marketing or
digital infrastructure.
And now I'm going to go find aphysical therapy practices to
(40:48):
bring on as clients.
I'm going to do all of thedigital marketing.
That's kind of the framework Iwould look in.
If you're a hustler, if you'remore like me, I would go get a
job at one of these healthcarecompanies.
I would optimize not for salarybut for experience, which is
what I did.
Go somewhere where they giveyou an opportunity to manage
things, and it doesn't have tobe a massive team or $10 million
, but just something.
There's lots of companiesskilled nursing facility
(41:10):
companies, home health andhospice companies that are
looking for leaders.
They don't pay well in the verybeginning, but you can get a
ton of great experience in justunderstanding the mechanics of
these businesses, and then youcan take that experience and
apply it to buying a business.
That would be my recommendationfor the two ends of the
spectrum.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
I think that is such good advice, because you've kind
of hit, you know, there is aspectrum, but you have hit the
kind of the opposite ends of itand obviously there's everything
in between.
All right, so you, 10 yearsfrom now, 20 years from now,
what is your dream, what is yourgoal, what do you want to
achieve, and why?
Speaker 2 (41:44):
Wow, that's a great question.
Um like like 20 years from now.
If I look back on myself, whatwould I be proud of?
Speaker 1 (41:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
I would be proud if my boys are hardworking,
productive, humble members ofsociety.
Nothing would make me moredepressed than if they were
entitled dregs on society.
And that doesn't even mean like, oh, they've got a business and
they're making tons of money.
I don't.
I really don't care about thatpiece, I just want to see them
(42:12):
contributing.
They could be like my oldestson wants to be a music teacher
like and just go, be the bestfreaking music teacher that you
can be and leave a really goodimpact on the kids, on the kids
that you teach.
Um, so that would be one of.
My kids are are really good.
I'm still married.
Would would be like, all rightif I'm still married, with a
good relationship with, not notjust like, well, we stayed
(42:32):
together for the kids, um, which, thankfully.
I love my wife.
She's fantastic, she's thereason I've done anything
successful.
And if she's the reason I'vedone anything successful and if,
if she just has decided tostill not divorce me in 20 years
, I'll consider that a win.
Um, and and then, third, if Ican look back and say I worked
with people that I wanted todoing the things that I wanted
(42:54):
to work on, uh, I'm notoptimizing for a billion dollar
exit.
That's just not where my head'sat right now.
Right now, I just want to makesure that I'm in control of my
time and I'm in control of thepeople who come into my orbit.
That's why, when I met you, I'mlike, oh, that's a person I
want to stay in the orbit with.
To me, that's real wealth isbeing able to control your
experience, and that doesn'tmean being able to pay for the
(43:16):
Turks and Caicos and go intoGreece every year.
Those can be additive, but Ithink at its core, real wealth
is being able to say like Ienjoy the people that I work
with, I enjoy the thing that Ido, I'm proud of my family and
I'm proud of my relationshipwith my spouse.
If you can say those things,then 20 years from now, I'm
stoked.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
Rad, that's an excellent answer.
I like that.
I think I like you more now too, getting to know you more and
I'm like, oh yeah, we're, we'repretty aligned, okay, last
question here If you could goback and have a conversation
with yourself when you were inyour early twenties.
What would that conversationlook like?
What would you say?
(43:54):
How would it go?
Speaker 2 (43:56):
I'll give you two answers.
The first answer would beknowing everything I know.
Now I'd be like move to SanFrancisco because I I just think
you can be like a BC player inSan Francisco's tech scene and
just like fall backwards into ahundred million dollars of
equity because you were, youknow, employee number 10 at
(44:16):
Airbnb.
You know what I mean.
At least that's my perception.
You know employee number 10 atAirbnb.
You know what I mean.
At least that's my perception.
So that that's where my mindgoes first, Um.
But on a more serious note, youknow I love my life, I love my
family.
It's like I feel incrediblyfortunate and incredibly blessed
(44:37):
at the same time.
Uh, I lost my sister two yearsago.
Um, we had a son pass awayeight years ago, and those are
really hard experiences to gothrough.
Um, I'm very grateful that Iwent through those experiences
because I I think that whatevermessage I could have given to my
20 year old self, my 30 yearold self had to learn the hard
(45:00):
way.
Uh, and you can only reallylearn those by actually going
through them, which is family'sthe most important thing.
Time is finite and optimizedfor the things that are going to
give you the best experiencewith those people while they're
still here.
So I don't know that it'snecessarily what I would say to
my 20 year old self.
(45:21):
Uh, as much as just to yourself, before you go through those
experiences, which is there isan upside to the downside.
It's going to be really hard,you're going to have really
difficult things, you're goingto struggle through, but if you
can make it through that, youare going to be so much stronger
than you can even imagine rightnow.
(45:42):
Uh, that's probably what Iwould say I other than like by
Microsoft or like Nvidia rightnow, but you know, you know what
I mean Like of course you'regoing to say those, but you know
, holistically, from a lifeperspective, it would be.
yeah, it's okay, it's going tosuck for a while, but those
experiences, if you let them,will shape you into an
incredibly strong human being.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
Yeah, yeah, it reminds me of a quote by Francis
Weller.
Just that, for anybody who hasexperienced grief, that it's
like the experience of themature person is to hold grief
in one hand and gratitude in theother and to be stretched thin
by them.
Hand and gratitude in the otherand to be stretched thin by
(46:24):
them.
That has really spoken to me,as I've experienced grief as
well, and it really it's changesyou.
It does but it can change youin a good way.
So yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
If you let it.
Speaker 1 (46:33):
I feel for your losses, nick.
It's been an awesomeconversation.
I am so grateful to have justmet you through the podcasting
space Cause, as you know, Ifluctuate with whether or not I
want to continue doing this and,you know, interviewing you,
meeting you, it's just one ofthose reasons why I'm like this
was a good reason to start thisWell thank you, thanks for
(46:53):
coming on the show.
Speaker 2 (46:54):
Anybody listening.
Make sure you let Ann know thatshe cannot stop.
Okay, it's not allowed.
We need more Ann McGinty in theworld.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
Today's key takeaways .
Start with what you know.
Leverage your experience anddouble down on industries you
already understand beforechasing shiny objects.
Look for tailwinds and focus onsectors that are growing faster
than the broader market.
Support roles really matter.
Sometimes the best opportunitiesaren't front-facing.
Think back-office solutions,vendors or tools that support a
(47:31):
booming industry.
Be proactive in finding deals.
Create your own opportunities.
Great businesses rarely sit onthe market and entrepreneurs who
build their own deal flow getaccess that others miss.
For first-time buyers, workwith a business broker.
They can help you avoidpitfalls and educate you on
(47:51):
acquisition steps.
Run the numbers with discipline.
Set your minimums.
Define how much net income abusiness needs to generate to
support your life andobligations.
Use debt service coverageratios and aim for at least one
and a half times to ensure thebusiness can comfortably handle
loan payments.
You can get creative with SBArules.
(48:13):
The 10% equity injection caninclude seller financing if
structured so payments aredeferred until after the SBA
loan is repaid.
Solve real problems inantiquated spaces.
For example, healthcare is ripefor innovation, from
(48:35):
documentation to patientexperience.
There are countless outdatedprocesses waiting for simple,
effective tools.
Look at your skills.
Almost any skill set can addvalue in healthcare or other
large, underserved industries.
Know yourself and your style.
What are you good at?
What do you dislike or strugglewith?
Build around what you know.
There are two mainentrepreneurial paths and
everything in between.
(48:56):
There's a hustler who chooses ahigh ticket service, focuses on
marketing and sells to clients,or an apprentice who gets a job
, optimizes for experience oversalary and learns the mechanics
of the business before buyingtheir own.
And lastly, hard lifeexperiences carry hidden upsides
, lessons you can only gain byenduring them.
(49:18):
When you make it through, youemerge stronger.
Time is finite, so optimize forwhat matters most Meaningful
experiences with the people youlove.
That's it for today.
I release episodes once a week,so come back and check it out.
Have a great day.
Welcome to how I Built my Small Business.
I'm Anne McIntee, your host.
Today's episode is with fellowpodcaster and now friend Nick
Huluski of Nickonomics.
He's an excellent host and I'vehad the honor of being on his
show a couple of times, so Ithought I'd turn the table and
put him in the hot seat and puthim in the hot seat.
(00:24):
So I think something thatpeople will wonder, obviously
after they click on your episodeis like who the heck are you?
Who the heck am I?
Who is Nick Hlusky?
Yes, who are you and why do youhave something to offer people?
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Well, that's a great question.
I don't know if I havesomething to offer people.
Hopefully they stick aroundlong enough to make that
decision.
I'm just kidding.
Who am I?
So?
I'm a husband.
I'm a father of five boys, beenmarried for almost 20 years,
serial entrepreneur, mainly withhealthcare experience.
I have operated in home healthand hospice for a long time and
then, in 2020, I decided I wasdone working for other people.
(01:01):
I bought my first business,which was a medical billing
company.
It was a $3 million company andthen I started a home health
and hospice from scratch.
I grew both of those businessesover the next few years, added
different components to themmedical staffing, medical
practice management, home careand we grew the medical billing
company to about a $7 millioncompany and the home health and
hospice to a $15 million company, sold those companies and then,
(01:22):
for the last two years or so,I've just been, I've just been
dabbling.
I've been like a kid in a candyshop, right, I'm like, oh, that
looks tasty, let me try alittle piece of that.
I don't want to learn about CAC.
I've never heard of CAC before.
What's a ROAS?
Wait a second, you.
You can just knock on people'sdoors and get business, so I've
just been exploring and tryingto get to know different
businesses.
I've invested in RV parks.
(01:43):
We have.
I have an e-commerce businessthat used to sell crypto miners
and E-R-S not O-R-S, so theseare not underaged crypto people,
these are machines sell cryptominers to people who are mining
for Bitcoin.
I have a digital agency thatdoes digital marketing for small
businesses.
(02:03):
We have a tree trimmingbusiness in Dallas that just
services the Dallas market.
We launched that as a test.
So, yeah, I got my hands in acouple of different things at
the same time, just because I'mobsessed with entrepreneurship.
I freaking love this game.
It's so fun.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
What, what are?
How are you capable of doingthis much?
Where does okay?
So healthcare obviously is abig part of it.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
It sounds like that brought you two of your first
major windfalls.
So what were you doing beforethat?
So before that, I was workingin healthcare.
I graduated college in 2012.
I was a little older, I was 27at the time and I started late.
I thought I was going to be amusician.
I met my wife and then forthose who can't see me, I'm
doing air quotes we decided Iwould go back to school, and so
(02:51):
I went back to school.
Anyways, I graduated a littlebit later, but as I was
graduating was when theAffordable Care Act was coming
out, and if you remember many ofthe listeners will remember it
was a big deal because now wewere insuring healthcare to
everybody in the country.
We hadn't had that before, andI was a political science and
economics major, so I loved,like this intersection of money
(03:12):
and politics and I thoughthealthcare is a really cool
space to get into.
At the same time, I'd grown upwith a twin sister who's
developmentally delayed she waslike the level of a two-year-old
.
She died a couple of years agoand so I'd seen caregivers come
in and out of the home andprovide a service to us that we
couldn't provide ourselves, andI knew that it was life-changing
to these families.
But I also knew that if I sawblood I would faint, because
(03:34):
just getting my blood drawn tohave it tested at the
physician's office, I getlightheaded.
I have to lay down.
So I thought, what can I do?
How can I get into healthcare?
And my brother-in-law wasworking for this company and he
said, hey, you might want to trythis healthcare thing it's home
health and hospice and I saidsign me up.
And so for the next eight yearsor so, I worked in home health
and hospice.
I worked for a publicly tradedcompany and that that segment of
(03:56):
the business went from 15million to about $150 million in
revenue and I was a part oftheir acquisitions teams.
And then I worked for anothercompany and eventually, by 2020,
I was like you know, I've donethis.
I've helped negotiate, I'vehelped transition, I've helped
turn around a bunch of differenthealthcare locations.
I think I could do this on myown.
I don't know why I'm workingfor other people, and so I made
(04:16):
the leap into entrepreneurship.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
So was that job where you got all of the experience
that you felt you needed inorder to take the leap from
being an employee to then buyinga business?
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Can I tell you the story of getting into it.
I was working for this company.
They had offered me equity andthey were like, hey, 3% equity
in this business.
And I was stoked because I'mlike this could be a million
dollars, $3 million, jess, thisis going to be amazing.
And I sacrificed.
I was gone every single nightduring the week for like two
years.
Well, right before COVID hit,they had done some acquisitions
(04:54):
which put the company injeopardy and there were some
problems not in my region and sothey had to go and raise money.
I didn't know this at the timeand they had come to me about a
month earlier and they said, hey, remember that 3% equity that
you promised, or that wepromised you?
Yeah, we need you to take out aloan.
Um, sign your name, put yourhouse up as collateral and buy
(05:15):
one of our businesses quote,unquote and we're going to use
that money as working capital sothat we can pay off these debts
and figure stuff out.
And I was like, no, that's notthe deal.
Yeah, exactly, I'm like thatwasn't the deal.
I'm good signing my house.
I'm good Like helping thebusiness grow if we're going to
buy something new, but just tolike refinance and play this
(05:37):
shell game so you can haveworking capital.
So I had told them at thatpoint I'm like I'm not
comfortable with that and I wantsomething with equity.
So we need to figure somethingout.
And if we can't do somethinglong-term with equity, then I'm
going to move on, but I'm notputting you guys in the lurch.
So they're like, okay, this wasaround Christmas.
So my wife is pregnant, greatlypregnant.
She's going into labor.
And I get a call from one ofthem that that morning and they
(05:58):
was like that's freaking weird,february 19th, 2020.
And I was like, jess, theywanted to meet for lunch.
She was like, well, you knowwhat Contractions are?
Far apart, just go meet them.
This is our third kid at thetime, so you know, she kind of
knew the rodeo, so I got it.
So I go to lunch and I'm meetingwith them and they fire me
(06:21):
because they went out and raisedmoney and they needed, they
needed to cut costs.
And the private equity fundthat was investing in them was
like, well, he's not stayinglong-term, you need to cut costs
because you can't even makepayroll.
So fire him.
And I'm, and they came and theyfired me and I'm like, oh, okay
, well, how long are you givingme?
And they're like, oh, till theend of the month?
(06:42):
I'm like it's February 19th,guys, my wife's giving birth
right now.
Yeah, now, they were in a verydifficult position.
I've come to empathize withthem a lot more in subsequent
years, but in the moment I wasfreaking pissed.
I was like are you freakingkidding me?
My wife's in labor, you fight,you're firing me.
And now what am I supposed todo?
(07:02):
Like you're firing me because Iwas upfront with you about I
need more equity.
It turned out to be the bestthing that ever happened to me,
anne, because February 19th 2020, what happened right after
February 19th 2020?
Covid, the world, shut down,yeah, yeah.
And so I got to be home with mylittle baby right after he was
born for months, and had I beenin healthcare, still, I would
(07:24):
have been going crazy.
I would have been working likecrazy and managing these
operations and you know, godbless all the people who worked
hard during COVID and wereactually providing care.
I just know it would have beena nightmare for me and my family
.
So I got very lucky in that Iwas fired in that moment because
I got to spend time with my sonand I got to negotiate this
business that I was looking at.
So I had already startedlooking for a business and I
(07:47):
decided to look even harder.
I found this business it was amedical billing company and I
started having negotiations withthem and we started moving
quickly.
But I think your question wasthat was my long-winded answer.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
How did you find it?
Where were you looking?
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Great question.
So at the time my thesis was Ireally liked tailwinds and you
and I have talked about thisbefore I like like big macro
changes.
So I had this criteria.
I knew that I wanted to buy ahealthcare company because I'd
had experience in healthcare andit just seemed like a no
brainer to me Find a healthcarebusiness and and and blow it up
because you know what you'redoing there.
The second piece was I wanted tomove to a market that was
(08:24):
growing faster than the rest ofthe United States.
So I was looking at markets inlike Arizona, utah, idaho,
colorado, et cetera, like okay,cool, so healthcare market
that's growing Great.
And I wanted to find somethingthat was not patient serving.
So I wanted to be a vendor tohealthcare operators, but I
(08:46):
didn't want to be the actualoperator themselves, so that
leaves kind of like back officesolutions.
So I decided, all right, cool,I'm going to find something in
this medical practice managementspace in one of these markets
that's in healthcare, cause Ican leverage my experience that
way.
Luckily, I had experiencefinding deals, um, and so I
really just went to thatplaybook.
I was like I'm going to reachoff market to the companies that
(09:07):
I've identified, because I hadalready identified this really
like narrow criteria businessesI wanted to buy.
I just looked up that list andstarted reaching out off market
to individuals and havingconversations with them.
One of them happened to be aperson who was thinking of
selling and, uh, her and I builta really good relationship and
that's that's how I found thebusiness.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
So you're you cold contacted businesses to see if
they were available for sale.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Correct, yeah, and it wasn't like a mass cold contact
.
What I would do is I would getthe list and then I would go and
research them.
I'd look on LinkedIn, I'd gettheir background profile.
I'd see like, are they in theage range where they might be
retiring?
I gave them a message of likehey, I'm moving to Boise.
I have all this healthcareexperience.
I've seen you've operated inthis space.
(09:51):
I'd love to just have aconversation with you.
So it went from just this youknow cold call.
Oh, private equity fund isyou're trying to do a rollup to
this guy seems nice.
He's got a family.
Oh, he's got boys.
They're moving to Idaho.
He's got healthcare experience.
Oh, this, this actually mightwork out.
I am kind of thinking aboutretiring.
So those messages tend to havea much higher response rate.
(10:12):
But you have to do a lot morework to qualify the type of
business in the geography,tailor the message and really be
a person to them when you reachout.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
So you didn't have a broker working for you, you
weren't going to networkingevents, you weren't doing
anything else to find these, itwas your own research.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
I've never bought a business on market and it's not
advice I would give to a firsttime buyer.
I think you do need to gothrough the process of working
with a broker, Even if you findthe business off market, go find
a broker, because you haven'tgone through the due diligence,
you don't know what red flags,yellow flags are.
I had had all that experiencewith the healthcare companies
that I worked for in the past.
I had already done dozens oftransactions before I had done
(10:52):
the due diligence.
I had found them, I negotiatedthe LOI, I had worked on
financing all that stuff.
I just had never done it myself, like by myself.
So I I kind of knew what I waslooking for, but um no, I didn't
.
I didn't go through brokers.
I think brokers are great forgetting your reps in and for
getting a lot of experience, butfor me I kind of had already
known how to do it and you hadthe experience.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Yeah, I was very lucky for anyone who's listening
, though, it's good advice thatthey should go and seek a broker
, because there are so manysteps in the process and if you
don't know what you're doing,you can you could really get
fleeced.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Have you ever bought a business with a broker?
Speaker 1 (11:25):
We've sold businesses only with brokers.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
You sold business with a broker.
That is so funny.
I did the same thing.
I've never bought a businessthrough a broker, but I've never
sold a business without one,not through a broker.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Okay, so let's talk the numbers a little bit.
How much cash did you have tohave down?
How much was?
Speaker 2 (11:49):
the business.
What did the numbers need tolook like?
What did the potential of thebusiness need to have in order
for you to want this deal to gothrough?
Yeah, I was looking forbusinesses that were at least in
the mid teens of a net marginor cash flow.
So 15% net income For some ofyour listeners they may be like
that's really low.
For me, coming from healthcare,like home health.
Margins were 8%, right, so 15%seemed like the promised land to
me.
So I needed to find a businessthat was net netting 15% a year.
(12:09):
I needed to have some scaleassociated with it so that it
could support my salary plussome cushion.
So when I was looking, I wantedto have a business that could
do at least $600,000 a year.
That was the number that I cameto at least $600,000 a year in
net income at a 15% margin,before I'd even look at it.
(12:31):
And then from there, themultiples.
I won't say they.
They didn't matter to me.
They did matter to me.
It was more about a debtservice coverage ratio.
So you can look at multiplesall day long, but the truth is
that's just what other peoplehave paid for those businesses.
What you really want to look atis what is my debt service
coverage ratio?
So if a business is spittingoff $600,000 a year in cash
flows, if it's my first business, I want to have at least a debt
(12:54):
service coverage ratio of 1.5.
And so what that means is mydebt on that business will be
$400,000.
So my, my debt payments to thebank paying off the note will be
$400,000.
1.5 times that 400,000 would be$600,000 in net income.
(13:16):
So all of a sudden, because Iknew what my margin wanted to be
, because I had created thisnumber of $600,000 of net income
, I also now knew what my maxsort of debt obligation could be
, this $450,000 number.
This is funny, I haven't donethis exercise in like five years
, so hopefully my numbers areright.
Um, and then from there I waslike okay, $450,000, working
with a bank, I can probablyafford up to a $4 million
business, and then that.
(13:37):
So that was my range in in sortof deciding the size and scope
of the business.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
How much of a down payment did you need in order to
secure the financing?
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Um, so the SBA at the time the the rules are 10% that
I have to come down with.
So most bank financing I haveto come down with 20%, but
through the SBA it's a greatprogram I can come up with 10%.
So I was thinking all right, ifI'm going to do a $4 million
deal, I have to come up with atleast $400,000.
(14:10):
Now, I didn't have $400,000 atthe time, but I had.
We had sold our home.
So we we bought our home in2015, market went crazy, it
appreciated and we had about$200,000 of equity that we had
built up in the home.
So I thought, all right, I got$2,000, $200,000 there.
I could probably raise friendsand family money for the other
$200,000 if I needed to go up tothat $4 million mark.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Okay, but it sounds like you said, if so, you didn't
do that.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
I didn't.
No, I didn't.
I was very lucky I found thisbusiness.
We started negotiating In themiddle of the negotiations I
found out it's not a loopholebut it is a way that the SBA
gets around it.
The SBA, the 10% down rule,isn't actually 10% of your cash
down, it's a 10% equityinjection.
And the way that they willcount the equity injection is
(14:52):
either cash or other contributedequity.
And if you structure a sellernote so if I go to the seller
and I say, hey, your business is$5 million, I'll pay you $4
million down Will you carry amillion dollars of this purchase
price?
That's a seller note.
If you structure that sellernote in a way where you don't
make any payments on it untilthe SBA is paid off, they will
consider that million dollars,or at least a portion of that
(15:14):
million dollars, as contributedcapital and they will allow for
an additional 5%.
So you can get into a businessfor kind of as little down for
your first business as 5% down.
If you've got a structured theright way, your second business,
you can get in for as little as0% down because you're
effectively using your currentbusiness as leverage.
But um, that's, that's how Idid it, so I actually only
(15:37):
needed to put down see what wasthe math about $180,000.
I still did take some friendsand family money, um, but
personally I think we put in ahundred of that 180,000.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
And you got a close to $4 million business.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
We got a $3.2 million business.
Yeah, yeah, so we've got a $3.2million business.
The bank underwrote it at about$450,000 of EBITDA but, um, I
was looking at it and I was likeno, this business could do like
seven or 800,000, just becauseof my pattern recognition from
what I had seen before.
There's a lot of owner stuffthat was being run through the
(16:13):
business.
Anyways, there's a lot of fatthere.
So I felt comfortable jumpinginto the business, even though
the multiple quote unquote washigh, because I knew that our
debt was covered and I knew itwas a great business.
So, yeah, I got in a $3.2million business doing $450,000
a year on paper in net income.
Thankfully, my thesis was rightwe, we, they were doing
probably closer to 700 when wemade some of those changes.
(16:35):
So it was the type of businessthat we needed and, uh, we got.
I got in for less than ahundred thousand dollars of my
own money.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Okay, so what was it really like when you closed on
that business, though?
Like what?
How many people were on theteam?
What were the hardest parts?
What did you not expect?
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Okay, this is where it gets even crazier.
And I was moving to Boise.
I was buying this business.
It was a medical billingcompany.
My brother-in-law, nick, owns alarge skilled nursing facility
company and he was like, hey, ifyou're moving to Boise, let's
start a home health and hospicetogether, because we have all
these skilled nursing facilities.
We discharge these patientshome, they go home on home
(17:08):
health and hospice.
We should capture that business.
And you have home health andhospice experience, nick.
So I'm like I would love to, butI'm buying this medical billing
company, so I can't really doit.
And after talking a lot we were.
I was like, well, I can get myother brother-in-law to come up
and run this medical billingcompany.
Oh, I did so many things that,like, break the rules.
(17:28):
I always say like, don't hirean operator.
And that's exactly what I didanyways.
So we brought, we brought myother brother-in-law up.
He ran the medical billingcompany and then I started right
away building this home healthand hospice from scratch.
Yeah, yeah.
So literally, literally, weclosed on the medical billing
company in July.
(17:49):
I was already like working onthe home health and hospice full
time when we closed on themedical billing company, so I
really wasn't at the medicalbilling company foreclosed Like
I wasn't there to meet the newteam.
I wasn't like the owner and Ihad a great relationship and I
knew some of the leadership team, but that was my brother-in-law
who was running that businessand so he was there meeting
everybody.
Um, looking back, I don't knowthat it was the smartest thing,
(18:13):
but it did work out for us.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
No hiccups.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
I mean that's a great question.
There were hiccups down theroad.
I didn't pay enough time andattention to that business
because down the road issuescame up which which then kind of
got me to a place where I'mlike we need to sell this
business.
And I think that had I beenrunning that business full time,
I would have never sold thatbusiness.
Um, but I got scared.
I guess I was like uh, ratesare going up, it feels like
(18:40):
we're on some shaky ground.
Healthcare is changing.
I don't really know thislandscape that well.
It felt like I was having tomake a bet again on this
business and I just decidedlet's just sell it.
And so we sold it and it wasgood.
I mean, it was the year that wesold it.
It did like $1.3 million in netincome, so the business grew
significantly.
But I think if I had been thereday to day and just had known
(19:02):
it intimately, I wouldn't havefelt scared and I wouldn't have
sold out of a place of fear.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
Interesting, but your time and energy was occupied
with the other business, so yousold both of these businesses
within a span of like threeyears.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Yeah, I sold the medical billing company.
We sold in two years and then ayear later sold the home health
and hospice.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Okay, so, and I don't know what you're comfortable
revealing, but what did you walkaway with and what have you
done with that money?
Speaker 2 (19:27):
Oh, and buy a guy's drink first, hey, you tried.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
You tried to ask me how much I sold my business for,
and I was like I'm not actuallyallowed to talk about that.
And then you tried again and Iwas like nope can't do it.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
One of the companies we sold to a publicly traded
company and then the othercompany we sold to a private
equity fund.
So I can't tell you, I'm goingto pull you.
I can't tell you the exactdollar amounts but I will say
not eight figures, mid sevenfigures is sort of like where
the walk away range comes in.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
And when you say that you wished you hadn't sold that
first business, what do youthink it would be worth today?
Speaker 2 (20:06):
I actually don't think it would be worth a lot
more than it was back then,because asset valuations were
just nuts.
The reason I say that Iwouldn't sell it or that I wish
I hadn't sold it is just becauseit's consistent.
I was spitting off a milliondollars a year.
Healthcare continues to growfaster than inflation and the
rest of the economy.
These physicians need theservices that we were providing,
like it wasn't going away, andso from that perspective, it was
(20:30):
just a great business.
It was a consistent businessand looking back, I'm like
you're a dummy for selling that.
That's more of why I think ofit.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
I don't think it'd be worth way more money, but I do
think that it would just stillbe doing what it was doing.
It was, it was stable and itwould have been relatively easy
to keep it.
Okay, so you have your hands inall of these other things.
I mean, you said the tree treebusiness in Dallas.
Yeah, so are you just like?
You know people, other peoplethey shop on, like Amazon, and
you're just like what businessam I going to buy today?
Speaker 2 (21:02):
I'm going to buy it today.
I'm going to buy a business inDallas.
Okay, at first I think you canprobably resonate with this when
you go through this period oftime so from 2012 until 2023, I
was just like heads down, lockedin to what I was doing, first
working for other companies andthen running my own businesses
and so when I sold thosebusinesses, it was like the
first time where I could everpick my head up and think what
(21:23):
do I want to do?
What am I interested in?
And I went a little hog wild.
I'll admit that I spent toomuch money on a bunch of
different projects, but I reallywas like a kid in the candy
shop, cause I'm like I don'tknow what.
All these other businesses SAS,I've heard SAS is cool.
Oh, home services, that'sreally cool and so I actually
didn't buy a bunch of businesses.
The only business I reallybought was this RV park.
(21:45):
The rest of them were just kindof started from scratch or
incubated and, um, it reallyjust came because my, my best
friend and I have shiny objectsyndrome and we think this might
be a cool business to test.
Oh, nick, you've got some cashright now, let's throw some
money at on it, and so that'skind of what we did over the
next two years.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
We so I bought an rv park tell us quickly, like, give
us like, with the one minuteoverview of the rv park, like
where is it?
What'd you buy it for?
Does it cash flow?
What?
Why did you buy it?
Speaker 2 (22:10):
okay, oh, this is great.
It's not as good as you think.
Uh, this, this rv park was intexas and we found it off market
.
My, my friend, friend Chris, isa deep into the mobile home
park space.
So we find it off market,significantly undervalued by it,
for $300,000.
And we're like, oh man, with,if we change some rents here, we
(22:33):
can get it to be a $1.2 millionpark.
So at the time it was cashflowing about $30,000 a year.
We thought, back of theenvelope, we can get it to like
a hundred thousand dollars ayear, right, so that's, that's a
really big swing.
And then if you, if you're like, all right, the cap rate, which
is how these parks are valued,if the cap rate's like eight or
9% or even 10%, we've got atleast a million dollar park.
(22:53):
So it made a lot of sense.
So we buy the park, we make thechanges, we increase the rents
and things are going swimmingly.
It wasn't doing a hundredthousand, cause we hadn't
reached max occupancy, but itwas.
It was doing about $7,000 amonth.
So it was like, on its waythere, what is that $84,000 a
year run rate?
And then the city sent us aletter and said you're not up to
(23:14):
code and you haven't been up tocode for years.
And we're like wait, what thefreak.
And this was, yeah, like now Iknow, if you're ever buying a
freaking rv park or mobile homepark, go check with the freaking
city to make sure that there'sno outstanding items on that
park.
Uh, so anyways.
So we missed that in duediligence and the park we had to
(23:35):
kick all the tenants out endedup coming back.
We had to put I don't know acouple hundred thousand dollars
into the park.
It ended up being a headacheand I was.
I just don't even want to dealwith it.
So we sold the park.
Uh, we didn't lose any money onit.
We bought it for 300 and soldit for like 350.
So we made a little bit ofmoney on it, but it would have
been cool.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
I mean, like the plan was cool, it was executed the
right way, but apparently itdoesn't translate to other
industries.
We all make mistakes.
We all make really bad mistakes.
As you were talking, I was justthinking about all the
different mistakes that I'vemade in my career and in our
business journey and it's likeno, you just, but you would.
(24:13):
You would have learned so muchfrom that process.
So are you going to buy anotherRV park, or is it no longer a
possibility?
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Oh I, would absolutely buy another RV park,
a hundred percent.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely,I'd buy an RV park, but I will
buy it only by an RV park Ifit's with somebody who wants to
actually operate it, like thatwas.
The problem is like neitherChris nor I were going to go
operate it and so then when itcame out like oh, we got to do
all this crap to it.
We're like looking at eachother like who's going to?
You know the spider-man meme itwas like, are you gonna go?
(24:41):
Am I gonna?
What are we?
So, um, yeah, I'd only be withsomebody who is operating it or
with, like a fund who hasmultiple parks and they have an
infrastructure in place, um, orif it was really close to me and
I could go and actually kind ofmanage the park myself.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
But yeah, I still love, I think they're amazing
real estate once you get one,it's like everybody comes
knocking and says, hey, I've gota deal, are you interested?
So it's an interesting sort ofinsular space in a sense that
like they're amazing businesses.
Yeah, you get in the door andthen you realize there's a whole
world of you guys out there.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
So here's what's crazy I love these businesses
because of the real estatefunction of it.
And I just had this guy Italked to this guy on my podcast
who is buying car washes.
I didn't know this.
So if you buy if you buy a RVpark, for example, if I buy it
for a million dollars I get todepreciate a lot of that.
So I have like accelerateddepreciation so it lowers my
(25:32):
taxes, but only if I'm a realestate professional.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
That's the only way it works.
So I've got like 500, $600,000in passive losses right now
sitting there that I've had foryears because I don't have
passive income to offset.
Yeah, it's freaking great.
I was thinking I'm like, ohcool, I'm going to get all this
depreciation.
And then my CPA was like, uh,yeah, that does.
That's not how it works.
You don't have passive income.
So, freaking screwed myself onthat.
But car washes I didn't knowthis since they're a business,
(25:58):
you get the real estate, you getthe accelerated depreciation
and it's not passive incomebusiness.
Car washes you can activelydeduct from your taxes.
And the reason I love realestate so much is because if you
have a high margin businesslike you did with your Christmas
lighting business and you'vegot these high cash flows coming
in, you can just take thatmoney redeployed into real
estate.
If you're not sitting in anactual asset, not a services
business, you can depreciatethat asset, you can offset your
(26:21):
taxes, you can have more cashavailable, you can invest into
your business, you can grow evenmore and then put those cash
back into real estate.
So it's like this amazing,virtuous flywheel that can lower
your taxes but also allow youto grow real wealth and I say
real wealth purposefully,because I think you cannot have
long-term wealth without realestate and that's why I love RV
(26:42):
parks, but the car washbusinesses in particular,
because they have that taxcomponent that can really
accelerate things.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Or you can just become a real estate
professional.
I am a real estate professional.
It is not that hard.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
No no.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
Go and get your agent's license your agent's
license, literally.
You could take a course onlineand get your agent's license,
find a broker that will let youhang your license with them and
then make sure that you manageyour real estate assets.
For I think it's I forget it'slike 600 or 700 hours a year or
something that you dedicatetowards the management of your
own real estate.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
I'd rather do it the hard way.
I'd rather do it the hard way,just kidding.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Okay, so the Arbor business, so the Arborist
business, a tree trimmingbusiness down in Dallas.
How did you get this started inDallas?
Why Dallas?
How do you manage your crewfrom a distance?
What are you doing with thatbusiness?
What's the point of it?
Like you said, you were doingit kind of as a test model.
So get us into your brain.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
All right.
So Chris and I, we've been bestfriends.
He you may have seen him theKerner office.
He has his own podcast.
He's growing like crazy.
But that guy has never workedfor anybody in his life.
He's been.
He's the consummate serialentrepreneur.
And so when I had this exit, Iwas like Chris, what can we do?
Let's do something fun.
And so we decided to launchthis thing called co-founders,
(28:02):
which is let's partner withcollege students who have ideas,
like we have the capital andthe knowledge.
They have some ideas and thework ethic and let's partner
with them and fund them.
It'll be really cool.
It was really cool for a coupleof projects.
It turns out you need a lotmore money than I had in order
to make something like that work.
But one of the ideas that camefrom it was this kid, james
(28:22):
freaking amazing graduated fromBowling Green and he was like
hey, I'll move to Dallas, I justwant to do a business with you
guys.
And we thought tree trimmingseems really cool.
Chris had launched a treetrimming business with a friend,
or helped a friend launch atree trimming business years
earlier through these likecreative growth hacks, and so we
knew that we could generatedemand and so like, let's test
it.
(28:43):
And so James came out.
James is operating the businessand I put some money behind it
and we just went with it andeffectively what we've turned
into is a lead generationcompany that subs out all of the
actual business.
So James answers the calls, hegoes on site, he quotes the jobs
, he responds to Angie's list,thumbtack, jobber's, the system
that he uses, google, lsa, allof those systems.
(29:03):
We've also used mailers,texting software, any and all
automations that you can thinkof.
But the gist is, if you canincrease that speed to lead, if
you can respond really quickly,you're going to win business.
So James responds reallyquickly, does the quotes and
then he's got a bunch of peoplethat he subs these jobs out to.
So we don't actually own anyequipment.
(29:24):
Yeah, yeah, it's.
Eventually it's probably betterif for margins, if you own all
that stuff.
But we were like we don't wantto buy a truck, we don't want to
buy, you know, stump grinders,we don't want to buy all this
heavy equipment in order for usto do the true chairman business
.
So let's just find people whoare already doing that service,
use that sub network to.
The fulfillment will be thelead generation and we'll
(29:46):
collect the margin between.
So that business is not huge.
It does, I want to say seven to$800,000 a year in top line
revenue, probably in theballpark of one to $200,000 a
year in bottom line performance,if we were taking money out.
But we're not.
Everything's just beingreinvested into the growth of
that business.
So that's where it is today andit was a test because we were
(30:09):
like, could we get into homeservices?
And so we wanted to test it.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
So you don't technically own a tree trimming
business.
You own a lead generationbusiness that has a niche in
tree trimming.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
But you are.
Are you thinking of trying toexpand this into other markets,
like, are you going to try to dolead generation and, like you
know, lawn care and windowwashing and this is going to
become a huge lead generationbusiness, or is this?
This was just a case study andyou've done it, and that's
enough.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
It's that it was a case study.
We've done it and that's enough.
As you know, there is noshortage of good opportunities.
So could we do that?
Yes, we could do that, butthere's a lot of operational
complexity and executional riskthat that would have to happen
in order for that business to besuccessful.
So we just wanted to see, couldwe do it?
Like we think there's all theseboomer businesses that are being
(30:58):
sold and the valuations arestupid high and we're looking at
this like, well, what do theyactually do?
They're just really likegetting leads and doing the
fulfillment.
I think we can do the same ifwe just figure out a way to get
the leads.
And so we you know that's whatwe did Angie's list, thumbtack,
google, lsa and then we've gotsome programmatic SEOs.
We built out our website sothat we're getting a lot of
leads from the website.
(31:18):
Google business profile isoptimized.
We did some gray hacking, grayhat stuff in texting finding
information for contractors inthe local market, texting them
to get business, et cetera.
So we launched that business.
So it was more of a test to seelike, could we do it?
And yes, we could do it, but no, we're not looking to replicate
it in other markets.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
But you're not going to.
It's not.
It's not worthy enough of yourtime and efforts to go beyond.
Do you want to hear somethingcool?
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Yeah, so if you go on Twitter and you're probably not
on Twitter, but there are theseguys who do stump grinding, so
there's a stump grinding crazeright now.
All right, chris and I did apodcast a year ago where we
talked about stump grinding,where we were like we think
someone could start a stumpgrinding business because of our
experience with the treetrimming company.
We're like, yeah, where we werelike we think someone could
start a stump grinding businessbecause of our experience with
the true trimming company, we'relike, yeah, and this is how
you'd launch it.
(32:02):
And we gave the exact playbookof how we launched the true
trimming business Just gave itout there, we talked about it,
gave it for free, and this thisone guy was like I think I could
do that and he's done $250,000in his first year after quitting
his job.
Like that's net to him and itspawned like 10 other of these
stump grinding guys.
So it's like that has beensuper gratifying to see.
(32:24):
Like not only did it work forus and true trimming, but we
just talked about it and thesepeople listened to it and were
like we think we can do that.
And and now I can't you know, Ican't get through a Twitter
without seeing a bunch of stumpgrinders in my feed.
But it makes you feel good.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
And you changed someone's life.
And my husband literally renteda stump grinder the other day
and ground a bunch of stumpsaround our property, Dude
they're amazing.
Okay, but so now you have themoney from your exits, you've
got these little side projectsthat you're dabbling in.
What are you really workingtowards?
So you want co-founders tobecome kind of like.
Is this like a businesssyndicate type of concept?
Speaker 2 (33:02):
So, to be honest with you, that's what I thought I
was going to do and I've beendabbling and messing around and
the kid in the candy shop.
But where I have recently comeback to is I was trying to do
like everything else, like Isaid, I'm like, oh, what's CAC
and what's SAS and what'swhatever home services.
And I finally got to the placewhere I was like my experience
has been in healthcare I knowthat better than probably 99% of
people who have operated inthat space why would I pivot now
(33:26):
, like why would I pivot nowinto vending machines or a home
services business?
I could I'm not saying I can't,but like it just seems like I
would lose a lot of thatcompounding knowledge.
And so two months ago I decidedwith my brother-in-law, who
still has the Skoll NursingFacility Company, that what we
are going to do is focus onbringing a lot of these really
(33:49):
good ideas from other industriesinto the healthcare space,
because healthcare is antiquated.
It is super old school.
If you think that what you'redoing is old school, go look at
the back office of a healthcarecompany and you'll be still.
They're still like billing onpaper.
It's because they're mandatedby the government to have
patient records for seven to 10years.
You know what I mean.
So, anyways, they're veryantiquated and as I've been
(34:12):
having more conversations withentrepreneurs, I'm like that's
really interesting, that pricingmodel.
Why don't, why don't we do thatin healthcare?
Oh, that's really interestingthe way you acquire customers
through Facebook ads.
Why don't we do that inhealthcare?
Oh, ai we don't even talk aboutthat in healthcare because
everyone's afraid of HIPAA.
And where he and I came to waslike we should start a venture
studio.
He has a company that has 5,000employees, 8,000 patients, 60
(34:34):
facilities that we can then testthese ideas within as like an
incubator idea and let's see ifwe can change the healthcare
space that we're operating in.
Let's see if we can actuallybring all of that knowledge and
all that skillset to make aneffective change in this market.
So that's that's what I'm doingright now.
I'm pivoting, I'm trying toshut down all of the
distractions, um, but as youknow, it's not super easy to
(34:55):
just shut them down overnight.
So I'm trying to shut all thosedown and just go all in on
healthcare and improving theexperience both for the patient
and for the employee in thehealthcare space.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
I feel like your ADD just went zhink and your brain
is just like fully coherent now,like it all makes sense, right,
right, because it's like thedistractions and oh, I'm going
to do stop grinding and all this, but you do talk with a lot of
very fascinating entrepreneurs,so it's really hard to shut it
down entirely.
But yeah, why wouldn't youfocus on healthcare?
(35:27):
You know the space you clearlyhave a passion for it from your
own experience and healthcare isonly growing.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
It's only growing, the demand for it's only growing
, the spend on it is onlygrowing, the problem set is only
growing, like we don't know howwe're going to fund all these
liabilities in the future.
So there's a ton of things thatwe need to fix and solve within
healthcare and that's what Iget excited about.
So, for example, just buildingsimple tools using AI can save
one or two full-time employees,or simple tools can help a
(35:59):
patient get better experienceand we can lower the cost of
that patient being treated by 20, 30%.
Well, what happens if we'reable to do that system wide?
Now we're able to do 20 to 30%more with the same amount of
dollars, as the government iscutting our reimbursement and as
patients are demanding more andmore care and we're getting
less and less workers into thespace.
So there's this really cool coolis the wrong word there's this
(36:20):
really complicated problem setthat needs to be solved within
healthcare, and if you're inhealthcare, like I was, you
don't necessarily have the toolsnecessary to solve them,
because you're the one who'skind of contributed to creating
the problem.
I don't mean that in a negativeway, but you just, you just
don't know any better.
And that's why I'm excited nowis because I feel like, oh cool,
I've kind of like found somedifferent tool sets.
Let's see if we can make achange.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
Okay, let's say somebody is listening and
they're thinking well, I'dreally like to get involved in
the healthcare space as well andfind my own little sliver niche
where I can provide somethinguseful as a business.
Yeah, so one complaint I hear alot of healthcare professionals
complain about constantly isthat when they go home at the
end of the day, professionalscomplain about constantly.
(37:02):
Is that when they go home atthe end of the day, they still
have all of their what do theycall them?
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Charting notes documentation.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
They have all of their charting, notes and
documentation and what a slog itis and how, as you're saying,
antiquated it is.
Let's say that a person sitsthere and they're like I'm just
going to start writing downevery problem that I see in the
healthcare system that needs asolution.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Then what yeah?
Speaker 1 (37:21):
As an entrepreneur, someone who's done this, what do
you think they do next?
Speaker 2 (37:25):
Dude, I love this question.
This is my favorite question.
It all comes back to knowyourself what are you good at?
What are you not good at?
What's your superpower?
What are the things that youfreaking suck at?
So the problem set is only oneside of the equation.
The other side of the equation,the other side of the equation
is you, and what are youuniquely suited to solve.
(37:45):
So healthcare is such a big andbroad category that almost any
experience that you have can beapplied to that space.
You're not necessarilyproviding care to patients, but
you're serving the healthcareindustry, which is growing like
crazy.
So if I were an entrepreneur, Iwould first look at what do I
know really well?
Am I a coding engineer?
Do I understand dataarchitecture?
Am I a massage therapist?
(38:06):
Am I somebody who has a lot ofexperience managing teams and
people Like, what are you reallygood at?
And then you can look at howdoes that apply to these
different problem sets withinthe healthcare space?
Because all the things that wecurrently do outside of
healthcare still needs to bedone within healthcare.
If you're an engineer thatcreates plans or like design for
(38:27):
buildings, well, guess what?
There's healthcare specificdesign that needs to be
implemented in order for ahospital to meet certain
standards and regulations.
If you're a massage therapist,well guess what.
These patients need massagetherapy as well, so I would take
it from that.
Speaker 1 (38:40):
You could basically layer anything on top of the
healthcare space.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
Anything, anything on top of the healthcare space.
Now there are probably somethings where you're like well, I
don't know if this necessarilytranslates, but I promise there
is something in your skillsetthat can easily translate to
having value within healthcare.
Here's a perfect example.
A friend of mine works for alarge healthcare company.
He doesn't know the first thingabout diagnosis.
(39:03):
He's not a clinician, but whathe is is he knows how to write
SQL code, and so he manages SQLdatabases exceptionally well.
Well, what's really important inhealthcare right now?
We have a ton of data out there, but how do we extract value
from it?
How do we identify patients whoare high risk?
How do we see that they'repotentially going to the
hospital before they know thatthey're going to the hospital?
Well, unless we have someone toactually play translator
(39:26):
between all of the data andmaking these inferences by
architecting some datainfrastructure, we can't do it.
But that's my friend.
He works for a large healthcarecompany and that's all he does
is he sits and writes SQL codeto make sure the databases are
managed to the point where wecan actually extract valuable
information.
So, yeah, I would say any skillset that you have is applicable
to healthcare.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
Okay, let's say someone like him, though he
doesn't want to work for acompany, he wants to take his
expertise and he wants toactually start a business.
What if the person doesn't havebusiness experience?
Are you pro partnerships?
They go and find someone thathas that skill set, or do you
think they need?
Speaker 2 (40:03):
to go in get some education.
How can they becomeentrepreneurs?
Yeah, I think there are twotypes of entrepreneurs.
Well, there's probably aspectrum, but there's like
hustlers, that's probably you.
You're probably in the hustlercategory where you're just like
you were always thinking abouthow can I flip this to make a
buck?
That's not me.
And then there's people who aremore thoughtful and like I want
to do entrepreneurship, but Idon't feel like I have the skill
set.
To the hustlers I would say veryeasily pick a high ticket
(40:26):
service, focus on marketing.
That's where I would focusfirst in like driving value that
way, and then, um, market, you,market to those practitioners.
So let's just say, physicaltherapy clinics All right,
that's a high ticket service.
I'm going to go help them withtheir digital marketing or
digital infrastructure.
And now I'm going to go find aphysical therapy practices to
(40:48):
bring on as clients.
I'm going to do all of thedigital marketing.
That's kind of the framework Iwould look in.
If you're a hustler, if you'remore like me, I would go get a
job at one of these healthcarecompanies.
I would optimize not for salarybut for experience, which is
what I did.
Go somewhere where they giveyou an opportunity to manage
things, and it doesn't have tobe a massive team or $10 million
, but just something.
There's lots of companiesskilled nursing facility
(41:10):
companies, home health andhospice companies that are
looking for leaders.
They don't pay well in the verybeginning, but you can get a
ton of great experience in justunderstanding the mechanics of
these businesses, and then youcan take that experience and
apply it to buying a business.
That would be my recommendationfor the two ends of the
spectrum.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
I think that is such good advice, because you've kind
of hit, you know, there is aspectrum, but you have hit the
kind of the opposite ends of itand obviously there's everything
in between.
All right, so you, 10 yearsfrom now, 20 years from now,
what is your dream, what is yourgoal, what do you want to
achieve, and why?
Speaker 2 (41:44):
Wow, that's a great question.
Um like like 20 years from now.
If I look back on myself, whatwould I be proud of?
Speaker 1 (41:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
I would be proud if my boys are hardworking,
productive, humble members ofsociety.
Nothing would make me moredepressed than if they were
entitled dregs on society.
And that doesn't even mean like, oh, they've got a business and
they're making tons of money.
I don't.
I really don't care about thatpiece, I just want to see them
(42:12):
contributing.
They could be like my oldestson wants to be a music teacher
like and just go, be the bestfreaking music teacher that you
can be and leave a really goodimpact on the kids, on the kids
that you teach.
Um, so that would be one of.
My kids are are really good.
I'm still married.
Would would be like, all rightif I'm still married, with a
good relationship with, not notjust like, well, we stayed
(42:32):
together for the kids, um, which, thankfully.
I love my wife.
She's fantastic, she's thereason I've done anything
successful.
And if she's the reason I'vedone anything successful and if,
if she just has decided tostill not divorce me in 20 years
, I'll consider that a win.
Um, and and then, third, if Ican look back and say I worked
with people that I wanted todoing the things that I wanted
(42:54):
to work on, uh, I'm notoptimizing for a billion dollar
exit.
That's just not where my head'sat right now.
Right now, I just want to makesure that I'm in control of my
time and I'm in control of thepeople who come into my orbit.
That's why, when I met you, I'mlike, oh, that's a person I
want to stay in the orbit with.
To me, that's real wealth isbeing able to control your
experience, and that doesn'tmean being able to pay for the
(43:16):
Turks and Caicos and go intoGreece every year.
Those can be additive, but Ithink at its core, real wealth
is being able to say like Ienjoy the people that I work
with, I enjoy the thing that Ido, I'm proud of my family and
I'm proud of my relationshipwith my spouse.
If you can say those things,then 20 years from now, I'm
stoked.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
Rad, that's an excellent answer.
I like that.
I think I like you more now too, getting to know you more and
I'm like, oh yeah, we're, we'repretty aligned, okay, last
question here If you could goback and have a conversation
with yourself when you were inyour early twenties.
What would that conversationlook like?
What would you say?
(43:54):
How would it go?
Speaker 2 (43:56):
I'll give you two answers.
The first answer would beknowing everything I know.
Now I'd be like move to SanFrancisco because I I just think
you can be like a BC player inSan Francisco's tech scene and
just like fall backwards into ahundred million dollars of
equity because you were, youknow, employee number 10 at
(44:16):
Airbnb.
You know what I mean.
At least that's my perception.
You know employee number 10 atAirbnb.
You know what I mean.
At least that's my perception.
So that that's where my mindgoes first, Um.
But on a more serious note, youknow I love my life, I love my
family.
It's like I feel incrediblyfortunate and incredibly blessed
(44:37):
at the same time.
Uh, I lost my sister two yearsago.
Um, we had a son pass awayeight years ago, and those are
really hard experiences to gothrough.
Um, I'm very grateful that Iwent through those experiences
because I I think that whatevermessage I could have given to my
20 year old self, my 30 yearold self had to learn the hard
(45:00):
way.
Uh, and you can only reallylearn those by actually going
through them, which is family'sthe most important thing.
Time is finite and optimizedfor the things that are going to
give you the best experiencewith those people while they're
still here.
So I don't know that it'snecessarily what I would say to
my 20 year old self.
(45:21):
Uh, as much as just to yourself, before you go through those
experiences, which is there isan upside to the downside.
It's going to be really hard,you're going to have really
difficult things, you're goingto struggle through, but if you
can make it through that, youare going to be so much stronger
than you can even imagine rightnow.
(45:42):
Uh, that's probably what Iwould say I other than like by
Microsoft or like Nvidia rightnow, but you know, you know what
I mean Like of course you'regoing to say those, but you know
, holistically, from a lifeperspective, it would be.
yeah, it's okay, it's going tosuck for a while, but those
experiences, if you let them,will shape you into an
incredibly strong human being.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
Yeah, yeah, it reminds me of a quote by Francis
Weller.
Just that, for anybody who hasexperienced grief, that it's
like the experience of themature person is to hold grief
in one hand and gratitude in theother and to be stretched thin
by them.
Hand and gratitude in the otherand to be stretched thin by
(46:24):
them.
That has really spoken to me,as I've experienced grief as
well, and it really it's changesyou.
It does but it can change youin a good way.
So yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
If you let it.
Speaker 1 (46:33):
I feel for your losses, nick.
It's been an awesomeconversation.
I am so grateful to have justmet you through the podcasting
space Cause, as you know, Ifluctuate with whether or not I
want to continue doing this and,you know, interviewing you,
meeting you, it's just one ofthose reasons why I'm like this
was a good reason to start thisWell thank you, thanks for
(46:53):
coming on the show.
Speaker 2 (46:54):
Anybody listening.
Make sure you let Ann know thatshe cannot stop.
Okay, it's not allowed.
We need more Ann McGinty in theworld.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
Today's key takeaways .
Start with what you know.
Leverage your experience anddouble down on industries you
already understand beforechasing shiny objects.
Look for tailwinds and focus onsectors that are growing faster
than the broader market.
Support roles really matter.
Sometimes the best opportunitiesaren't front-facing.
Think back-office solutions,vendors or tools that support a
(47:31):
booming industry.
Be proactive in finding deals.
Create your own opportunities.
Great businesses rarely sit onthe market and entrepreneurs who
build their own deal flow getaccess that others miss.
For first-time buyers, workwith a business broker.
They can help you avoidpitfalls and educate you on
(47:51):
acquisition steps.
Run the numbers with discipline.
Set your minimums.
Define how much net income abusiness needs to generate to
support your life andobligations.
Use debt service coverageratios and aim for at least one
and a half times to ensure thebusiness can comfortably handle
loan payments.
You can get creative with SBArules.
(48:13):
The 10% equity injection caninclude seller financing if
structured so payments aredeferred until after the SBA
loan is repaid.
Solve real problems inantiquated spaces.
For example, healthcare is ripefor innovation, from
(48:35):
documentation to patientexperience.
There are countless outdatedprocesses waiting for simple,
effective tools.
Look at your skills.
Almost any skill set can addvalue in healthcare or other
large, underserved industries.
Know yourself and your style.
What are you good at?
What do you dislike or strugglewith?
Build around what you know.
There are two mainentrepreneurial paths and
everything in between.
(48:56):
There's a hustler who chooses ahigh ticket service, focuses on
marketing and sells to clients,or an apprentice who gets a job
, optimizes for experience oversalary and learns the mechanics
of the business before buyingtheir own.
And lastly, hard lifeexperiences carry hidden upsides
, lessons you can only gain byenduring them.
(49:18):
When you make it through, youemerge stronger.
Time is finite, so optimize forwhat matters most Meaningful
experiences with the people youlove.
That's it for today.
I release episodes once a week,so come back and check it out.
Have a great day.
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