#35 - PAUL ANGATIA - Impact Masters Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
Thank you so much for joining us once again.
It's a pleasure to have you ina beautiful day and you have one
amazing guest today.
Amazing guest today.

(00:29):
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(00:49):
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Leading dynamic teams infast-paced markets and
displaying the personal driverequired to turn business
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private and public sectors.

(01:10):
One and only Paul Angatia.
Paul Angatia, how are you?
I'm very well, thank you, it'sgood to have you today and, as
we normally start here at ourAfrica's Talking podcasts in
collaboration with ImpactMasters podcasts, we like to
know our guests and not justnormal stuff where you know you

(01:32):
say I went to this company, Iwent to this school.
No, no, no, no.
We want to know who is PaulAngatia.
Where are you born?
Where did your life start?
Sometimes it's called a trickquestion and I used to interview
people.
We used to call it the mostunstructured question you can
ever get, because you need tostructure your mind and try and

(01:54):
address what is relevant.
So I could start from when Iwas born and all these things,
the 40 plus years, but a lot ofthat might not be very relevant,
so I'll try and just stickthrough to what seems relevant.

Speaker 4 (02:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:07):
Born over 40 years ago.
As I said, I know men are nevershy about their ages, so that's
44 for me, absolutely.
Yeah, the older you are, thebetter it is.
For us it's called wisdom.
Born in Kakamega but moved toNairobi.
I was about three years old,went to school primary school
and secondary school was inNairobi.
I love into primary and Lenanaschool.

(02:30):
Picked up a few things thererugby, football, basically
sports athletics.
Represented Nairobi in one ortwo cross-country championships.
That's in the 90s.
So I was a bit of a sportsperson.
Actually I still run halfmarathons, try and climb a few

(02:52):
mountains here and there, butbesides that I always had a
thing about trying to influencepeople right from primary school
and influence them in the rightdirection.
So I had a bit of a what youcall a posse, a clique.
Okay, people used to hangaround.
One of the advantages I had wasthat I was quite fast.
And then I was also very strong.
So you know, boys like crowdingaround people who can bail them
out in fights.
So did you influence people andthen run.

Speaker 3 (03:13):
Or how did this work?
Well, no, not really.

Speaker 2 (03:15):
Because you said you like influencing people and
you're also very fast.
So I built a bit of areputation in terms of sticking
out for people getting out offights, defending people who are
, you know, like weak, and so Ihad people who used to hang
around me like like a team.
Yeah, no, we had a small Idon't call it a Turkish one

(03:37):
because it was a positive oneyeah, but we would go into, you
know, causing positive chaos.
Where somebody's being bullied,we can get in there and try and
sort out things.
Where we're trying to influenceor impact or get a good thing
going, we would force our waythrough by just talking to
people in the right way andshowing a good example.

(03:58):
That meant that I ended up beinga prefect in primary school.
I was also a prefect in highschool, quite senior all the way
to fourth form.
The reason why we go back fromthe start is because we have
realized I might say, forinstance, I work for Africa,
stocking right and what I do.
Sometimes that might not makesense if you don't know what

(04:20):
influenced my decision to dowhat I do, where I do it right.
We've also found people who areentrepreneurs, like you are,
and you might never know.
Maybe they left a very huge,well-paying job to be
entrepreneurs.
But when you understand howthey were brought up, where they
grew up, the experiences ofgrowing up I've found out over

(04:41):
time that actually shapes who webecome in the rest of our life
and even choosing our purpose.
Like you said, you defend people.
I will not say why would youdefend people, right?
So even this question likewhere did your life start?
It's actually based on that sothat whoever is listening,
whoever is watching us, they canunderstand.

(05:02):
Paul actually grew like this inthis setting.
These are the experiences up towhere he is.
So if you don't mind, we canstart from the beginning.
I don't know if you guys wentto.
Nowadays they CBC, where peopleare spending like 3-4 years
before even they join primaryschool.
I'm sure back then it was justnursery class one and then, yes,

(05:28):
onwards into primary school.
So did you go for your nurseryschool here in Nairobi or back
in the village?
No, I was privileged that Istarted off nursery school in
Nairobi.
My dad was a politician An MP.
He was an MP, yes, when I wasborn late dad an MP yes, when I
was born he was an MP at thattime, that is interesting the

(05:51):
way you are putting it.
So politics is up and down.
So because he used to spend alot of time in the village and
then he would come to Nairobifor three days a week to be in
parliament, so was he an MP inthe village or in town?
So he was an MP for a villageconstituency in Kakamega.

Speaker 4 (06:10):
I see yes, and.

Speaker 2 (06:11):
I had to come into Nairobi, of course, for the
parliamentary days Tuesday.
Wednesday, Thursday.
So, understandable and thenleave Thursday for the village
and then be in the villageFriday, saturday, sunday, monday
and then back to Nairobi on.
Tuesday.

Speaker 3 (06:22):
I mean.

Speaker 2 (06:22):
Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday and then back to
Nairobi on Tuesday.
Anyway, those days not to putit badly, but they used to work
they used to put in a lot ofwork.
I agree with you Nowadayspeople don't work.

Speaker 4 (06:34):
People are just having a good time here in
Nairobi.

Speaker 2 (06:36):
Yeah, you can operate in Nairobi for five years and
then you go back to the businessand have some cronies there.

Speaker 3 (06:40):
Take your business.
They'll go look for votes again, but those days they had to put
in the effort.

Speaker 2 (06:52):
So I think I grew up in that environment where you
would see a lot of selflessness.
Selflessness is trying to justmake a difference in society, do
things which will impact livespositively, and I think I picked
a bit of that in terms of, uh,social entrepreneurship.
That's from your father, frommy father yes looking at
opportunities and seeing how canyou make things better.
Or if you can't make thingsbetter, how can you make things
stable enough for those who arethere to make things better?
So that's where the influencecame from.

(07:14):
I think so yeah, I see yes,because now there would be a lot
of people coming into the houseand those days there were no
restrictions.
We have people coming from thevillage and they stay with us in
a three-bedroom house for likewhat?
Two, three weeks so you'resharing the house with all these
strangers, that you reallydon't know them.
But they are constituents.
They are more or less thepeople who have employed your
father.

Speaker 1 (07:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (07:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (07:34):
So you'll tolerate them.

Speaker 4 (07:35):
So you know, whatever you're eating, they eat with
you.

Speaker 2 (07:38):
You have to go to places.
They say, yeah, they also wantto go.
So you find a way to take themaround town and places like
those, but you would see fromwhat they were striving to
achieve that there were a lot ofgaps in society and they felt
that there's this one channelwho's now the mp who could help
them actually get through theirgaps and make an impact in their
lives if it's taking kids toschool, if he's starting a

(07:59):
business, if he's supportingfarming, and so in just having
discussions and talks with them,you'd hear them complain about
very basic things and you'dunderstand that education could
make a difference.
Yeah, this guy just went toschool.
He would know better how to dealwith such a situation and
education helps in everything,whether it is healthcare,
whether it is hygiene, whetherit is even just longevity of

(08:22):
life.
So that was a very big, strongpoint for me to understand that
the impact of educationtranscends many other things in
society.
If you can start on theeducation level, all the other
things can fall into place.
So you're saying, if maybe thepolicymakers set proper
strategies to ensure that peopleget education, then that
actually, in return, solves mostof the issues that we see as

(08:45):
big issues right now?
Yes, but let me ask you this,now that at least I'm talking to
someone who has been close topower.

Speaker 3 (08:51):
In quote If you call it so.

Speaker 2 (08:55):
Right now in our northern part there's a lot of
drought, right.
Yeah, I don't think there's anyeducation that can solve that
at the moment.
The only thing that thosepeople need right now is food.
Before even you talk about youknow, we will dig the wells,
yeah because, that has beenpromised, maybe since I was born
.
Yeah, it has never happened andactually I don't understand this

(09:15):
.
Maybe you can help me.
I don't want to put you on spot, but you can help me understand
how this works, because I don'tsee if it's rocket science to
dig some few wells around theplace, because the other day we
got the Tulu where we are miningoil.

(09:36):
Guess what.
That is already working.
The system is in place.
I had a couple of.
I don't know how they measure,but a couple of.
I don't know how they measurewell, but there are a couple of
barrels.

Speaker 3 (09:48):
Barrels of oil.

Speaker 2 (09:48):
Yes, yes, that are coming from that place.
Do you mean digging water andoil is like I don't understand
that, because even when we areand this actually is common
ground for Africans, to behonest, yes, uh, when, during
campaigns, leaders wouldtraverse every single corner of

(10:12):
this country yes but let's cometo where people need help, like
right now.
People are dying to sort outthe problem right.
Yes, it's becoming a wholekenyan issue.
People have have to raise funds.

Speaker 1 (10:23):
Now, there are no helicopters, there's no money,
there are no helicopters.

Speaker 4 (10:26):
No four-wheel drives.
Our military is not working,you know.

Speaker 2 (10:30):
And it kills me to know that we can solve some of
these problems once and for all,if you want.

Speaker 3 (10:35):
Very true.

Speaker 2 (10:35):
Yeah, so the challenge from my perspective,
and I'm not perfect.

Speaker 1 (10:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (10:40):
I don't know everything, but I know one of
the things that has held us backas Kenyans, as Africans, is
what you call the big mansyndrome.
So in the past, what used tohappen before we had this new
constitution and evolution?
If your man was not in power,it was very unlikely that you
would find or get anydevelopment.
Oh, yeah, so the reason whyeverybody then had to coalesce

(11:02):
around this big man and entrenchall sorts of weird measures,
like you know.
Yeah, man needs to drivecampaigns.
Yeah, of course, in that wayalso driving corruption up is
because when you're around thebig man, you have access to
resources yeah regardless ofwhere you come from.
Now, if you are not close to thebig man, it's very unlikely

(11:24):
that the resources will trickledown to places where the big man
doesn't have people.
Yeah, so if you are not closeto the big man, it's very
unlikely that the resources willtrickle down to places where
the big man doesn't have people.
So if you are like inNortheastern, so you have to
align.

Speaker 3 (11:31):
Yes.

Speaker 4 (11:32):
So you have to align, you have no choice.

Speaker 2 (11:34):
The big man can once in a while fly there and hold a
rally or fundraising orsomething, open a hospital, and
then you find people seeing carsfor the first time, seeing
people drinking water becausethey've carried water from
Nairobi or wherever.
So the challenge was that inthat whole period, whenever
people got into areas ofpositions of influence, they

(11:56):
went to build themselves insteadof building for the community.
You realize that we don't haveit's not like 100% across Kenya
that we do not have.
It's not like 100% across Kenyathat we do not have education.
Education reached everywhere.
Even in those areas you'retalking about Northeastern.
They are educated people.
The challenge we have is thatthose people got educated, left
the village came to the urbancenters or wherever it is, and

(12:18):
they realized that problem istoo big for me to go and solve.
So they were to build theirlife away from the village
completely.
And then they'll go in there andtake photos once in a while,
humanitarian or we need to raisemoney and do a drive with the
nice cars.

Speaker 3 (12:32):
But we have people originating from those areas and
cook chapatis on the streets.

Speaker 2 (12:37):
I mean those people who do that.
Of course you're doing thesmall way you can.
But I think what you're tryingto say, the small way you can,
but I think what you're tryingto say you can correct me if I'm
wrong is that we can do more ifwe bring the resources together
.
We are intentional about it,that this is the problem we want
to address, and if we rallyaround it over time it might

(12:59):
become an issue.
Yes, it becomes less and less.
I mean, as you say, it is thetrickle of the water that breaks
the rock.

Speaker 3 (13:05):
It's not the other way around.

Speaker 2 (13:06):
You think the rock is tough but the trickle
consistently.
So if you find somebody who hascome from that area, they
obviously know what problems arethere they can write for you
books and books about whatissues.
They are and they even haveideas on how those issues can be
resolved.

Speaker 4 (13:22):
The only place we've now seen that there's a chance
is with devolution, becausesuddenly we're pushing resources
down to those villages whetherthey like it or not, I have an
interesting aspect aboutdevolution.

Speaker 2 (13:32):
It's good that you've brought it up.
I've been meaning to havesomeone think differently.

Speaker 1 (13:38):
And.

Speaker 2 (13:39):
I hear you think differently.
Don't you feel like most of theresources are going to paying
specific people or recurrentexpenditure, as opposed to
serving people trying to solveissues?
Because I hear even somecounties, there is over 90% of
the resources that goes intorecurrent expenditure.

(13:59):
You find a new governor.
They don't like the house thatwas there and they want to build
a mansion for themselves.
And you ask yourself this person, by the time they run for
governor we know, all of us knowat the moment, right now, it's
about money and this person, thethreshold that they have in
terms of money for them to runfor their office you ask

(14:21):
yourself were they sleeping inthe bush before they became
governors?
And also there's this otherissue of employing guys who
supported you, which actuallybeats the logic of devolution
whereby it's supposed to be moreof.
I'm not saying that you shouldnot reward people who actually
were with you in the journey,but we can do it better.
So I'm like, maybe when westarted about devolution issue

(14:45):
before 2010, it was likeresources were managed at the
national level, which is Nairobi, the capital, but now people
wanted resources on the groundand someone else actually can
argue that if maybe we hire, say100 guys, that's money in the
pocket for 100 locals, which isokay, but is that the way to
develop?
Because at the end of the day,there will always be few who

(15:07):
actually benefit from this andmajority, and again the
alignment comes into play.
So maybe in your experience Imean being close to power do you
think there's a better way ofdoing devolution, because I
don't feel like we should doaway with it altogether.
Even if we do away with italtogether, there's supposed to

(15:30):
be a clear way of gettingresources down to the people in
that area.
It might not be throughgovernor and all these
ministries, because it comes asa full-fledged government Again,
which is redundant when youthink about it.
So how do you think we can goaround this with your experience

(15:52):
?
Okay, I think when it comes tojust utilization of resources,
we've got a very poor examplefrom central government, because
even in central government,when you look at expenditure, I
think we're heading towardsmaybe 60%.

Speaker 4 (16:05):
So you're buried on debt?

Speaker 2 (16:07):
Yes, so we trickled everything.
We trickled corruption wetrickled, misuse, mismanagement.
But ideally, our hearts areusually not in the right place,
in my opinion, especially withpeople who are in the political
space, because in thosemarginalized areas, they would
understand what is the priorityfor Northeastern.

Speaker 3 (16:24):
Probably water.

Speaker 2 (16:29):
So we have cattle, we have, schools, we have, but
water is such a big prioritythat it should transcend
everything else that they'retrying to do.
Yeah, now, that means that anypriority project that is being
built up should have watersomewhere in the middle there,
because when water is in there,all the other things will move
on healthcare will improve,education will improve, because
children are now spending moretime in class instead of going
to look for water.
Yeah, the agriculture, whetherit's keeping animals, whatever
it is will improve as well yeah,but then there are some

(16:52):
responsibilities that have to benational which is like power,
which is like even water.
The basic, the basic items,basic needs, ideally should
still be with central government.
But I understand where they'vesaid, okay, now we've removed,
evolved that problem, thatproblem is for those guys it is.
Do you think they're escapingthe blame or they they are

(17:12):
shacking the responsibility?
Yes, they don't know.
Now it's easy to say but thegovernor gets money.

Speaker 3 (17:17):
You have your government there.
Go and ask the government.

Speaker 2 (17:19):
The governor doesn't have, the money he has is not
sufficient to cover thechallenges around the ground.
And the problem from there isbecause we didn't start from an
equity level.
It's not equitable and therewas even no education around
that.

Speaker 3 (17:33):
No, we just jumped in and said, okay, let's move on,
maybe the aspiring MP who wantsto retire and be close to his
home area In fact, where youknow that the understanding
wasn't even clear, even topoliticians.

Speaker 2 (17:44):
many of them ran for what, senator, when we started
evolution, that was the primeposition, everybody wanted.
Because what does governor have?
Let's go for the Senate.

Speaker 3 (17:52):
You realize all the brilliant minds majority of them
ended up in the Senate.

Speaker 2 (17:58):
Right now is when they're going for the government
.
Yes, within the time theyrealized we don't have any power
here, Now they startedagitating to go back to the
county to be governors, and alot of them.
after one time in Senate theymoved to governor.
But back to the issue.
The issue is that if we couldhave started on a level where
there's some equity in terms of,understandably, places like
Central and Rift Valley wereclose to power for many years,
central was even close to theseat of power.

(18:20):
So you can understand that alot of infrastructure has been
built up in Central, in RiftValley, areas that are far from
the center of power.
Center of power meaning Nairobi, not necessarily a person, but
Nairobi.
It would then mean it's easyfor you to get a good education
if you're in Central province ascompared to if you're in
Northeastern.
But how would we have broughtthis Northeastern person closer
to power?
It meant that the governmentmust have had to invest in those

(18:42):
areas.
Yeah, which never happened,because we go back to the big
man syndrome, where we never hadenough people in Northeastern
who were influencing, enough ofthe power, enough of the
resources to come to their place.
So what did they then do?

Speaker 3 (18:53):
they decided we will just fend for ourselves so they
and their families are doingvery well, but for the rest of
the community it's not doingwell, so I do started on that
level where at least water isavailable across the country.

Speaker 2 (19:03):
Now you can build on that.
But now here we're talkingabout people building up ICT
industries EPZ in Central RiftValley, nairobi.
When in Turkana, even when youtalk about laptops for the kids,
they don't get it in.
Turkana.
They don't have power.
How are you going to even powerthis gadget?
Forget about power.
So there are basic needs that weneed to address Before you come

(19:25):
to saying now let's give moneyto the counties, because when
you give this guy, he gets 2billion.
The guy in Nairobi gets 12billion.
For example, hypotheticallyspeaking, the Nairobi person is
dealing with what Slam issues?
Maybe 4 million people.
Yeah, like the whole country ishere, is here, but these
fellows seem to have a way ofsurviving you know guys, why not
be proper hustlers?
Yeah, the guy in Northeastern.
He just sits there waiting forgovernment.

(19:46):
He can't do nothing.
He sits under the tree Half thetime.
They are sitting there withbegging bowls.
What can they do?
They can't dig, they don't haveinputs, they don't have
fertilizer.
When do you get anyagricultural?

Speaker 4 (19:58):
produce getting to Northe.

Speaker 2 (19:59):
Ask yourself why is it that you find that in
Nyandarua, people are throwingcabbages alongside the road
feeding their cows, and allbecause they don't have a market
and people in Garisa are dyingof hunger?

Speaker 1 (20:12):
It doesn't make sense Yet we have devolution.

Speaker 2 (20:15):
Why couldn't these two governors speak?
And then you get the lorries togo to Nyandarua and pick the
cabbages and take them to Garisaand then we pay.
Create a market for thesefarmers who are struggling to
even get produce to the market,because you have people starving
, not even just survivalstarving they are dying.
Some of them are dying.
Yes, we are feeding cattle, andyou know the sad truth is that

(20:36):
every year this happens and it'sunfortunate that people die.
For me, even with my smallknowledge I don't consider
myself knowledgeable, it'sactually even I can't think
about it, because you have seenthis over and over and over
again and you know, every yearthis is going to happen and

(20:58):
after maybe now the rains havestarted, right Now that's not a
problem.
Now we've forgotten about it.
And another thing that I'venoted is that every time there's
a fund raising, most of thatfund does not go to buying these
people food or digging oil.
Right now I heard they haveraised around almost a billion.
Actually the government gavetwo billion.
If you dig oil now, the wellsand also the dams, you do a lot

(21:25):
with that money.
That actually would solve atleast half of the area, or maybe
a quarter of the area, whateverit is, and next year do
something around it, putstrategic measures towards some
of these problem and it becomesyou know the people actually a
good thing about Kenyan people.
That one thing I've realized,and the reason why even we are
doing well is because we arehardworking people.

Speaker 3 (21:47):
We put in work.

Speaker 2 (21:49):
If it's for our leaders, by the way, it would be
worse than any other Africancountry, but because every time
we are faced with crisis, we areable to mitigate it and work
hard, and it looks like nothing.
So I think leadership thereneeds something.
There's a big challenge there,because you can't have the same
problem over and over every year.

Speaker 3 (22:10):
You know what they say about that.

Speaker 1 (22:12):
Something to do with your mentality and your sanity.

Speaker 2 (22:16):
So if you were to look at it in the sense that
even you, as a person who comesfrom a home, you realize every
year, when the rains come, myroof leaks.
So when it's dry, I need to fixthis roof.
So you come in there, you patchit.
You patch it when the raincomes again, you realize the
place you patched is okay, butthere's another place leaking.
You patch again.
Then you say, okay, let me save, I need to buy a proper roof.

(22:37):
Yes, on comes, I'll replace theroof.
You and I think that waybecause that's on a very basic
level.
You would imagine that it's thesame mentality that goes into
corporate thinking in the publicsector.

Speaker 3 (22:50):
But then it's like when somebody gets into those
positions, you remove one mindand you take out another mind,
that now runs things verydifferently Because, at the end
of the day, if you were to sayevery year, just dig one
borehole, even if it is inNortheastern, wherever it is.

Speaker 2 (23:03):
The county government says this year we are going to
do only two boreholes.
Now you've reduced thechallenge and the pain of these
people who have been goingwithout water.
Forget about even going fardistances.

Speaker 3 (23:13):
Even those far distances don't have water.
Now they have two boreholes.

Speaker 2 (23:16):
Next year you say, okay, out of our supplementary
budget or whatever budget we'lldo, let's dig another two.
Over time we've had 10 years ofdevolution.
Where would we be?
You have at least 10 wells, 10bohos.
Actually, the problem even isnot about devolution, because
this has been there even beforedevolution.
That's very true, and it hasbeen the same problem.
I was in primary school.
I used to hear that you know,not the eastern, it's not.

(23:40):
Sometimes there's drought andlike even I think there's
affirmative action that is inplace to like excuse those guys
to be admitted in the university, when they get lower grades but
why don't we?
but anyway, someone can argueand say one man's problem is

(24:00):
another man's business and.
I tend to think I tend to leadon that side of things if you
look at it as you were sayingcomplaining about the funds that
are raised vis-a-vis what gets,it's another man's business.
No, that is very true, and Itend to think I tend to lead on
that side of things.
That's what it is.
If you look at it as you'resaying complaining about the
funds that are raised vis-a-viswhat gets to the ground you'll
find a very big spend onlogistics, Exactly.
Very big spend andadministration?
Yes, but then even in thosesame areas in Garissa, the guys,
the trucks and the lorries andthe transportation are locals.

(24:22):
Why can't these locals saywe're going to go to Nairobi and
pick the food that has beencollected and we get the goods
that have been provided for, itwill be at our cost because it
is coming to help our people.
They will not do that.
This is one thing that I'vecome to live with because, to be
honest and to just be fair,I've never been to Northeastern

(24:43):
and the easy actually was to goto Lodwa.

Speaker 4 (24:46):
You should.

Speaker 2 (24:47):
And do something different actually to address
this problem.
Long-term solution that wasjust imparting skills and
knowledge and ensuring thatpeople at least have access to
the global economy, whichactually breaks them from that
boundary of you know, I'm inLodwa or I'm in the eastern end,
I'm left for death or somethingthat is worse than that.

(25:11):
I think I still need to takecare of that challenge, because,
for me, I don't like looking atthings from afar whereby you
don't understand what ishappening and you've never been
there.

Speaker 3 (25:24):
I've been to Samburu, I've you been to know this?

Speaker 2 (25:25):
I've been to Samburu, I've been to Lodwa, I've been
to Lokichogyo.

Speaker 3 (25:30):
At least you are speaking from an informed point
of view.

Speaker 2 (25:36):
That aside, the reason why we're actually having
this discussion is because yousaid your dad was in politics.
And there's another question Ihad around that your dad being
in politics and you know, comingon Tuesday and leaving on
Thursday, leaving on Friday inthe morning yeah, how much
influence did he have on you?

(25:57):
Because right now there's thisparenting issue of people
getting challenges.
I'm like how can I be the bestdad, how can I be the best mom?
And if you heard now I'm apolitician or I'm a busy
businessman or I'm anentrepreneur, it adds actually
more.
You have less time with thefamily.

(26:18):
So, what lessons did you learnfrom that?
Yeah, I think for majority ofkids they don't ask for much,
they just apart from that.
Yeah, I think for majority ofkids they don't ask for much.
They just apart from thatpresence part.
It's also to see that theirlives matter like when you're
around.
You're actually around.
When you're able to spend time,you're actually spending time.
Now we are in the microwave age, where you're on the phone,

(26:40):
you're watching tv, you'respeaking to the child, so half
the time the attention is verysplit.
So even they, when they growolder, and you're watching TV,
you're speaking to the child, sohalf the time their attention
is very split.
So even they, when they growolder, and you're calling them
and their attention is on thephone and they are, it's because
they learned from you.
They learned from you.
Yeah so what I've realized is,over time it makes it easier if
you can involve the kids,especially in what you do from

(27:00):
time to time when school allowed.
Most of the time we were inschool anyway when school
allowed we were on the campaigntrail.
We were in there going to visitvillagers, going to find, so
it's what you are saying insimple terms you can hit the
road and get the seat.

Speaker 4 (27:13):
Well that's a long story.

Speaker 1 (27:16):
It has never happened .

Speaker 2 (27:17):
We'll get there no worries so anyway, it helped to
give visibility on what exactlyhappens when this guy is not
around.
Yeah, so what is he doing?
And you get to understand ifthis thing is important to him,
it must be, it must carry someweight.
And then you realize, indeed,it's because of the impact that
it has in society and even muchlater in life I would go to

(27:38):
places and somebody like yeahyou're so and so's.
Yeah, I remember he did this.
Those are not things I wouldever have known that he did here
and there, because he was notsomebody to go announcing the
things that he's done.
True, true, but you see theimpact that we leave in society.

Speaker 3 (27:49):
So he's a true leader .

Speaker 2 (27:51):
Those old guys were.
They actually did a lot of work.
In my opinion they did a lot ofwork.
At least those who turned outto work, they actually worked.
If you're coming to school towork on a Saturday, say okay,
you have a child.
Say let's go to work to theoffice.
They sit around.
They'll get bored, of course,but they feel so honored to be

(28:11):
given that importance that youcan carry them to your workplace
, which they know is veryimportant to you.
That's why you're alwaysspending your time there.

Speaker 3 (28:18):
Where does this guy go every day?

Speaker 4 (28:20):
Okay, today he's taking me Wow.

Speaker 2 (28:21):
Okay, they go tell the kids their friends in school
.
Hey yo, my dad took me to theoffice.
I have two daughters andthey'll always do that.
When I go to the office withthem.
They'll tell stories in schoolit's an adventure for them?
Yes, because a lot of the otherdads just go to work.
Nobody even knows where arethese workplaces so it's
difficult for them to align.

(28:42):
When you hear dad is havingchallenges at work, you're
wondering what is work anyway?
What?

Speaker 4 (28:46):
is that work?

Speaker 2 (28:48):
But, when you hear yeah, you know, we met the boss,
and the boss is a verydifficult person.
They can understand who thatperson is and they know.
Okay, that's what it takes fordad to put food on the table for
us.
But if you just disappear andappear, disappear and appear.

Speaker 3 (29:03):
What does this guy do ?

Speaker 1 (29:03):
with his life?
They don't know.
But you're saying you'reworking.

Speaker 2 (29:06):
So sometimes it's just to appreciate and involve
people in the things that we aredoing, so that they understand
what it takes to be who you are.
Because, the challenges in lifetoday are too many.
Half of the time, the thingsthat you're dealing with.
A lot of other fathers orparents are also dealing with
the same, because we usuallythink our problems are the
biggest ones.
So we close ourselves up andtry and sort them out on our own

(29:27):
.
Yet as they say, there's nothingnew under the sun.
True, true People have gonethere before us.
Well, apart from things likecrypto, which are new, but so
many other things that are notnew People have been there
before you.
They know how to address,address some of the challenges
you're going through.
So the plan is to share and seehow best can you be there for
the people who matter in yourlives, because, at the end of
the day, jobs come and go,occupations come and go, but at

(29:50):
some point you'll have to sitdown and have a reckoning with
yourself like, yeah, what have Ibeen doing with my time?
So, that's what I learned frommy dad.
He really involved us, madesure that we would understand,
would do campaigns, would stick,posters would go.
We distributed money 50-50?
.
We gave a trunk like the oneswe used to go with to high
school.
It's packed with money.

(30:11):
We told okay they have sent Idon't know how much.
We couldn't count.
Of course it was too much.
So we put it there and we toldokay, we're going for a rally,
you sit behind the pickup thereand people come behind the
pickup there and people come, soyou're told everybody who comes
just give 50 shillings, maybe.

Speaker 3 (30:26):
what 10 years?

Speaker 2 (30:27):
old 11 years old Everybody 50, 50, 50, 50.
One of my other brothers iscounting the people.

Speaker 3 (30:31):
Older or younger brother, the older.

Speaker 2 (30:33):
I was the youngest at that time.
So him is counting the people,me I'm counting the money, so I
just give 50, 50 and the otherguy is counting how many people.
At the end of the day, yes,okay.
So how was it?
Today we give a report.

Speaker 3 (30:45):
So there's a counting endeavor.

Speaker 2 (30:47):
Yes, we're at the center.
This is what happened.
And then he tells you do youknow what that means?
Do you know what 50 shillingsdoes for somebody?
I don't know what that is forme.
I have no idea.

Speaker 3 (31:02):
He says okay, look.

Speaker 2 (31:03):
When 50 was 50.
When 50 was 50.
That family will be able tolast like a week in some level
of luxury.
That's like 50 cents US dollarsfor those who are listening,
yeah, so it is almost zero theway you look at it, but at that
time, because of the value, itmeant that we understood why

(31:26):
this was so important to him andwhat our role was.
What.
What could we do to help inthis?
Because just sitting and sayingokay, how was it today?
And then he tells you somethingmumbles.
You can understand.
People are many.
What is people?
I mean many, what do you meanby many?
Now, when you're on the pickupthere, you're the one
distributing the money or givingout.
You know, know, helping outpeople buying them, lessors,
distributing the headscarves forwomen, selling out the

(31:49):
manifestos, giving out booklets,trying to recite the, you know,
loyalty pledge.
Then you understand what itmeans to be Kenyan what it?
means what your role is in life.
So you're just not here to gothrough life and exit at the
other side.
You know, through a VPN, youactually have to leave some
value.

Speaker 3 (32:05):
You didn't just say through a VPN From this side to
the other.

Speaker 2 (32:10):
It gave me a sense of responsibility and ownership.
Take up stuff where you can dosomething to help somebody else,
it doesn't matter what thatperson will do for you.

Speaker 1 (32:22):
I have a question around the 50 shillings.

Speaker 2 (32:26):
This is something else that I've picked up over
time, how this politics is run.
Yeah, you give someone 50shillings, of course, if you do
that every day for the campaign,say six months, and you're
doing it even for a constituency.
You're doing it for like howmany words?
Maybe five or six in aconstituency.
You're doing it for like howmany words?

Speaker 1 (32:44):
maybe five or six uh, you know those days there were
many, but let's leave it at five.

Speaker 4 (32:47):
Yeah, right now they are not because they're split.

Speaker 1 (32:50):
Yes, yeah.

Speaker 2 (32:51):
So that's a lot of money if you think about it, and
sometimes the calculation goesthat these guys give more than
even they will ever get a salaryfor the five years they're in
office.
A salary for the five yearsthey're in office, and it's.
There are people who arguethat's a form of corruption for
people to be influenced to giveyou votes.

(33:12):
Also, there are other peoplewho argue that this money is
taken somewhere for rituals, soonce you take that 50 bob, you
always vote for that person.

Speaker 3 (33:21):
I cannot deny nor confirm about this.

Speaker 2 (33:25):
But there's all these arguments around giving people
the quick solution as opposed tolike serving them.
Also, there are other peoplewho look on the flip of the coin
when they say, if you don'tgive these people money, they
will not vote for you.
But I think that is changingover time because you have seen
guys who actually even they aregiven transport to move from one
what from, from one word to theother.

(33:46):
Yes, in the they become MPs andwe have now Cilicia MP.
I think it's from around Omegayes, I can.
I can recall his name right now,but the the current Cilicia MP.
Yeah, what do you think we canchange these now that we
understand that actually what isrequired is not a quick
solution, it is a long-termsolution, that actually these

(34:09):
people become empowered asopposed to dependent?
Okay, so there's a theoryaround what we call the path of
least resistance when peoplefind a way they can do things in
an easier manner.

Speaker 3 (34:22):
They will always take the easy way.

Speaker 2 (34:23):
We are human beings.

Speaker 4 (34:25):
Regardless of what benefits.

Speaker 3 (34:27):
They are on the long path and the reasoning yes.

Speaker 2 (34:30):
Which is why even they say for like heaven and
hell, the wide path has morepeople because it's the easy one
.
But to your question you seepreviously, at that time even I
had those questions when I wasgrowing up.
So where is this money comingfrom?
What does it do?
But I realized at that time,the machinery was such that the
ruling party, which was Kanu,had so many resources around the

(34:52):
country that they used to raisemoney.
Parties actually did activitiesto raise money.
Kanu had, whether legally ornot, the ownership of KICC at
that time, so they used to raisemoney from rent.
They used to sell all thesefarm inputs.

Speaker 3 (35:07):
There are a lot of outreach programs.

Speaker 2 (35:09):
They had field officers who used to do stuff
like on behalf of the party.
So, here there's an area thatyou know the president wants to
grow agriculture.
He wants to introduce newestates for coffee and tea.
They would drive that kind ofinitiative under the party.

Speaker 3 (35:23):
So the party would raise money.

Speaker 2 (35:24):
Also, when everybody was, of course, you had to pay
nomination fees.
Now there was no other party.
So everybody in the country paidnomination fees to this one
basket one pot, so there wasenough money at the end of the
day to actually run campaignswithout having to dig too deeply
into your own pockets.
Also, people used to sit andlisten through campaigns and

(35:45):
initiatives, for if you have amanifesto, what you're trying to
tell people, they would sitthrough, because these things
are resonating with their dailylives.
How is this going to change mylife?
There's been a big shift.
People sit through those thingsand after time everybody's
waiting for the end of the rallyto collect the money.

Speaker 3 (36:02):
Because they have appearance fees.
That is not important.

Speaker 2 (36:04):
No, they have a sitting allowance.
So they're coming to sit thereOnce they finish.
They queue, they finish.
I ran a bit of a campaign fornomination this past campaign.

Speaker 3 (36:14):
I know that's come 2022.

Speaker 2 (36:15):
It's come before.
You asked the question and thechallenge we had was that, yes,
you map out a zone.
Yes, you map out a zone.
You say these are the peopleI'm going to speak with and you
go and you create some publicityaround the event and people
come for the event and at theend of the event, you have to
have to.
It's now given you have to giveout some money.
So what happens if you don't?
So what happens is they'llattend that one rally, but next

(36:37):
time you're calling people noone will ever show up In the
afternoon your competitor hasanother rally.

Speaker 4 (36:45):
They have gone there.

Speaker 3 (36:47):
It's a business.

Speaker 2 (36:48):
In the evening when you say we'll be having a kikau
somewhere at my home they willbe there.
And you see, now we have alsomotorbikes.
It's very quick to move fromone end to the other.
The biggest challenge was thatyou'd find 40 to 50 to 60% of
these fellows.
Number number one don't have avoter's card.
Number two those who have don'tvote in your constituency.

(37:08):
So you're giving money to thesefellows but none of them is
reaching the ground becausethere's no impact.
The fellow comes, attends yourrally, you give him the 50,
thinking he's reaching hismother and his other people and
he'll spread the word.
But the people are not in yourconstituency, so they're not
going to vote for you, so thatis one of the challenges that
we've had, with a lot of moneyin the campaign trail, but the

(37:29):
big problem is politiciansthemselves have pushed that kind
of mentality, and it's everyother divide.
Yes, it's them who pushed it,because they don't have content.
When you don't have content,just come and shout hola on the
microphone there shout a fewslogans yes, make some noise two
, three slogans that arerepeated over and over.

Speaker 4 (37:44):
Yeah we'll do this, we'll do that and then sit down.

Speaker 2 (37:50):
And then you just remove some weird utopian, we'll
hit the road.
Yeah, yeah, we'll put dualcarriage.

Speaker 3 (37:53):
People clap, they're happy.

Speaker 2 (37:55):
Then you give money.
If you ask any of those fellows, what did you hear today in the
campaign?
They cannot recall a singlething.
They know that the guy came, wesaw big cars and all, and he's
given some money, this guy'sgiven a jirongo, the other one
is.

Speaker 3 (38:10):
You remember even that narrative back in the days
where money was named afterJirongo?
Jirongo, jirongo, jirongo.

Speaker 2 (38:15):
That was a politician .
We understand the historiesaround it, but the big problem
is how do you make that mentalshift?
That mental shift goes back towhat we start off with education
, the moment you realize youhate, I can name better for
myself with what I have.
Yeah, you shift your thinkingcompletely.
You will not go spend a wholeday in a campaign rally what are

(38:36):
those who sit in those rallies,you ask yourself when they are
sitting there?
where is the productivity?
How is this country growingwhen, very, very day, we are in
the campaign, rally every single?

Speaker 3 (38:45):
day.
So who is digging the farm?

Speaker 2 (38:46):
Who is taking water to the cattle?
Who is building the houses?
That thing is happening, so itmeans in that period we shut
down the whole country.
We're just going to campaignmode Now because I'm not working
.
What do I expect?
I sit through your rally.

Speaker 3 (39:01):
You're going to compensate me for the time that
I've been sitting here Because Inever went to my farm today.

Speaker 2 (39:06):
I never carried anybody today, so you pay for
the time and that's what hasheightened the pressure until
now.
We're almost at breaking point.
You cannot have a rally withoutpeople removing money.
The other day the president hada rally.
I mean, that was a nationalcelebration.
It was a challenge to getpeople to attend.

Speaker 1 (39:21):
This is a national.
It was a challenge to getpeople to attend.

Speaker 2 (39:24):
This is a national, so even those rallies people get
paid.
Yes, I mean because we are usedto crowds and we don't know
that there's mobilization thathappens for these fellows to
show up.
But when it is happening,somebody has left something else
, I'm sure the president is notignorant of that fact.
He's a good mobilizer.

Speaker 3 (39:40):
But now, in this case .

Speaker 2 (39:41):
Since 1992.
Yes.
In this case there was no moneybeing paid, so he assumed this
is a national event.
Maybe someone decided to paythemselves, we don't know.
Either way, there was a verypoor showing and this is coming
soon after the election.
You would expect that we are ineuphoria.

Speaker 3 (39:55):
We are happy.
We want to come and celebrateourselves.
This is our president.

Speaker 2 (39:58):
You voted him in.
We were seeing empty chairs.
What does that tell you Either?
We've realized, indeed, theimportance of my life is my
people and make sure that myfamily is well and all or it
could be that majority of thesupporters were not from around
the area.
So they couldn't make it for theevent because they were
attending the county events intheir respective rural areas.

(40:18):
It could be that, but at theend of the day we've
commercialized so many thingsuntil it's hard for me to
convince you to do anything forme just for the sake of
nationalism.
For the sake of patriotism, forthe sake of a good heart.
There's always what is itneeding me?
Yeah, for me.
So there's no self selflessnessin this you know there isn't,
and that's what I usually say inmy head if my dad was to wake

(40:40):
up today and run for for, hewouldn't even make it as an MCA,
he wouldn't make it.
They say village elder.
He would not make it as an MCAVillage elder.

Speaker 4 (40:48):
Leave alone MCA, where someone just volunteers to
just be reporting on whatpeople.

Speaker 3 (40:56):
And even those.

Speaker 2 (40:56):
Now there's a bill in parliament to pay village
elders.
I'm sure you've seen it.
It's been introduced.
They want now village elders toalso be paid.

Speaker 1 (41:02):
I think it was three weeks ago.

Speaker 2 (41:03):
Which makes a lot of sense, because life also has
become very, very they probablydo the most work they want to
resolve the basic issues, butthe challenge is how do we get
people to not need government,because the less government you
have in society, the better thatsociety.
And there's growth, not theopposite.
Now we want to bring governmentinto everything.
This is where the challengearises, if you want me, every

(41:25):
day I'm paying my taxes, I'mgoing to see the chief.
I'm having to pay another.

Speaker 4 (41:31):
Open a business that has four or five licenses.
Government is on you.

Speaker 2 (41:34):
There's too much government in our lives.
That's why we can't live andthat's why we've centered so
much of our activities aroundpolitics that there's little
room for anything else to happen.
Innovation is suffering.
The things we could do as acountry there are a lot of them
that are.
We have thriving spirits in usthat can make them happen.
But then the brilliant mindsthat would be doing those things

(41:55):
.
Where are they now?
They're living, actually, andthat's why I was almost saying
that.
Is that why entrepreneurs andinnovators are leaving the
country en masse, and even someof the engineers, because I deal
with them a lot they're alsoleaving, because when you look
at ATS, you might work remotelyand you're paid really well, but
now government has an onlinetax.
I don't know which other taxpay tax, whatnot?

Speaker 4 (42:18):
tax.

Speaker 2 (42:18):
Everything.
So you ask yourself it's notbad to pay tax, it's okay, but
you have to see where thesetaxes are used.

Speaker 1 (42:26):
How is this happening ?

Speaker 2 (42:27):
When you hear $5 billion has been stolen and
someone becomes a governor,you're not encouraged Because
that's your money.
In one way or the other, that'syour money.
It's like someone stealing fromyou and you're told we have to
reward this person because theystole from you.
Imagine that.
It's a conversation I think weneed to have more and more.
I think it's good to have youhere as an entrepreneur and even

(42:49):
speak about that, because, atthe end of the day, we all want
a better Africa, not only evenKenya a better Africa.
The only way to build that isby telling each other the truth,
because one thing that I thinkeven most leaders and you can
tell me if your dad used tothink like thisis that I think
the more they amass tothemselves, the better off they

(43:09):
are.
But I'm of the line of thoughtthat if more people are more
empowered and there is moreresources that is equally
distributed across the Africancontinent, there is more.
Even to pay you what you cansteal, yes, and it is
sustainable, because if you musta lot to you and what I think

(43:31):
what people do I don't know youcan tell me if your dad also did
this yeah is that they take alot of this money or sources of
chambers and river and then, ifit's money, they go and hide it
somewhere, maybe, maybe, say,switzerland, or there's these
other places in South America.

Speaker 1 (43:48):
There's Cayman.

Speaker 2 (43:48):
Islands.

Speaker 3 (43:49):
Yes, All those sort of places yes.

Speaker 2 (43:51):
One thing they forget is that this money they're
putting there is developingthose places, yes, and where
they call home is not developed,true.
And also they forget that youknow everyone has an expiry date
, you like it or not.
Yes, you will die, right.
Yes, but what have you do?
You think your children willactually like have this and do

(44:14):
something out of it?
Of course not, because theylearned from you.
As you said, if you go withyour dad and see, my dad was not
this rich Within two, threeyears, so you can do the
calculation.

Speaker 4 (44:23):
Yeah, ah, this guy do the calculation.

Speaker 2 (44:24):
Yeah, Ah this guy became a billionaire.
But the salary that they arepaid and the businesses you can
always do the calculation.

Speaker 4 (44:30):
It doesn't matter.

Speaker 2 (44:31):
Of course.
What does that do to yourchildren?
It shows them there's ashortcut and they always strive
to get that shortcut.
Guess what?
They're not as experienced.
They either get depressed, orthey get caught or they die in
the process, whereas what youwanted to achieve is not
possible.
So I think, in the long termjust to conclude this analogy of

(44:52):
politics and you can tell us ifyour dad, you know, uh, was of
the different school of thoughtyeah, is that it's more
sustainable to build wealthtogether, everyone, you empower
everyone to build wealth andthere's enough for everyone.
But before we just conclude,which school did your dad
subscribe to?
So, now that you're here, it'sunfair to have this conversation

(45:16):
about your dad.

Speaker 3 (45:16):
No, but I'm the one who brought him up, so it's fine
.

Speaker 2 (45:19):
So I think those days , I think the politicians in the
60s, 70s, 80s a lot of themwere pan-Africanists.
That meant that they tried tolook out for how can we grow
together?
Because those are drive around.
If I just amass for myself, Ihave dependence for life.
Yes, If I amass and buildpeople around me, I free them

(45:39):
and I give them that ability togo and grow and grow other
people as well.
Yes, yes.
So one of the ways you can lookat this is for us, like at home
my home country, where I comefrom home County, we don't have
much security yeah, yeah webuilt houses, done this and we
don't have we don't have highfences, we don't have electrical
this that people walk in andout of the compound anytime.

(45:59):
Why?
Because we have nothing to fear.
Yeah, yeah, because yeah,because people could see.
Yes, this person has gone outof their way to try and build.
Each of us take people toschool.
He was schooling at any onepoint between 70 and 100
children any time paying feesfor them out there and all.
Sometimes I would be kicked outof school because of fees.

Speaker 3 (46:18):
But the other children were all kicked out.

Speaker 2 (46:19):
Yes, because I could use the name and I would get a
few more months in school.

Speaker 3 (46:23):
The others don't have a name.

Speaker 2 (46:24):
They say that you pay the money or you don't pay the
money.

Speaker 3 (46:26):
So he would pay the money there.
That's amazing.

Speaker 2 (46:28):
He'd come and say he writes a letter to the teacher
and say we're going to pay.
Please, you can take my wordthat we will pay fees, and he
would pay of course, becausethey understood that.
Yeah, there were nothing tofear.
You're growing with the society.
You're building up peoplearound you.
You have less things to worryabout as compared to when you

(46:51):
amass yourself and become thisking, the big man.
Now you need people around youto safeguard.

Speaker 1 (46:57):
Right now people work with I don't know how many cars
.

Speaker 2 (47:00):
But you say you're a man of the people and you're
loved.
Okay, then just let's mingle,because I need to be able to
come to you and say look, hey, Ihave a problem, can you assist
me on this?
That the other.
But if you put the blockings,what is this that you fear?
And yet you're saying you'reone of us?
So if you're one of us, let'sfeel the pains together so that

(47:20):
we this and we come up withbetter solutions.
Done me sitting up here andloading it on you, telling you
this is what you need to do,because you have no idea what's
going on down here.
I think he's strain of thought.
A school of thought was buildthe community, yeah, and the
community becomes your securityand your safeguard because, the
other ones will go out theresaying no, no, no, no.
This is our pass on this, thatwhich is what used to happen,
yeah, until when you got intothis level of where there's so

(47:43):
much commercialization.
Now, even the community wantsto be paid.
But by then people just gave upthemselves.
Let's go to Aral.
You'll find people who aremobilizing.
You'll have other people whoare distributing pamphlets.
You'll have other people whoare providing security Free of
charge.
They're just happy to beassociated with a movement.
That is positive.
Now we need to get to a placewhere we can charge people up to
that level, because if you'reworking from the heart, you

(48:07):
don't worry too much about whatyou're going to get out of your
work.
If your work first output, whenyou say in startups the first
output is the revenue, you loseall the other steps because your
focus is only on the revenueand when somebody else realizes
that this is all you need,they'll provide that revenue for
you and they kill you the restof the things.
You have nothing else, no othersubstance we didn't build that
up yeah, even when you go to thepoliticians now, when you go to

(48:28):
elections, as you're saying, anmp probably gets what 60
million over the five years yeahassuming he attends all the
sittings, he's in all thecommittees, which is like maybe
a million shillings per monththat's the official money,
allowances and everything.
Yeah, 60 million.
Yes, but mps spend upwards of60 million in the campaign.
Yes, probably 100 million.
Yes, how are they going tobridge this gap?

Speaker 1 (48:48):
Their first.
What happened CDF?

Speaker 2 (48:51):
What was the name of that?
It was CDF.

Speaker 1 (48:53):
It's still CDF the first.

Speaker 2 (48:54):
CDF done, or half of it is just there we go.
Yeah, what do you expect?

Speaker 3 (48:58):
It's so bad until even Until.

Speaker 2 (49:00):
Even the people on the ground understand.

Speaker 3 (49:02):
Our man has to eat fast, you have to eat fast.

Speaker 2 (49:05):
You have to return the money he has invested.

Speaker 3 (49:07):
Why.

Speaker 2 (49:07):
Why?
Why do we do that?
Because we've heightenedexpectations and the importance
of politics so high up that wehave to live off what it gives
to us it's like the biggestemployer.
It is so sad when you getentrepreneurs, industrialists,
going to politics Because wedon't have enough brilliant

(49:28):
minds left out here to do whatthey were doing.
Now the guy goes and becomes anMP and he was running an
industry.
Who's going to run the industry?
Then he realizes the industryis so much work.
This is much easier Now.
He starts putting all theresources into this and the
industry dies.
The industry was supplying andsupporting.
How many lives?
Many.
You have no idea how many ofthem.
Now they are all sittingwaiting at his gate when he

(49:49):
comes out.

Speaker 3 (49:50):
They need some payout .
That's the big challenge.

Speaker 2 (49:51):
we have Not just the brain drain for people going
outside the country but, thebrain drain of people coming out
of deep occupations when youthink to these microwave surface
things because, as they say,they've reduced the profile of
an MP to the extent that what dothey go and do in parliament?
Some of them you'll never hearthem for five years, never.

(50:12):
There are people who've neverspoken, never given a maiden
speech, but there's no law thatsays you kick him out.
We had the law to say we canrecall, we killed it.
We had the law to say we needto set the margins and the caps
for the salary.
We found a way to maneuver.
Now we threaten the SalaryReview Commission and tell them
hey, if we don't we'll disbandyou because we have the power to
do it.
We're not finance, so there wego.
It's so sad.

(50:34):
The structures are there, thesystems are actually there, that
can work.

Speaker 4 (50:37):
This constitution that was built in was A1.

Speaker 2 (50:45):
It's not 100%, but it's close to 85.
It has a lot of good things inthere.
We have refused to unlock itspotential because we are still
in the old school mentality bigman syndrome.
What is it need for me?
What can I eat?
How can I build my profile?
Not, how can we move thiscountry forward, how can we
progress it?
So that's the big challengethat we have and it's a mindset
that needs to change from theyoung people because they're the
ones who are the leader.
We used to be told the leadersof tomorrow tomorrow came and

(51:06):
passed, so it's.
So.
You're saying in this podcastthat the leaders of tomorrow is
this Tamiraj.
This is a because, honestly, ifyou are like 10 years, you can
choose to to be selfless andstart leading at that level.
Yes, but the time you're 20 andI think this actually also
applies in tech whereby youstart amassing these skills at

(51:28):
that young age by the timeyou're 20, you are an expert in
what you do, the same way that Ithink even we should stop this
analogy of you are the leader offootball, because it's a true
lie.
It is.
It is something that you canbelieve, but it will never
happen.
It will never happen.
It will never happen Becauseeven people in their 40s, they
are told you know you're tooyoung.
Yeah yeah, you should be.

Speaker 3 (51:45):
You still have a few more years.
Yes, you need more experience.

Speaker 2 (51:48):
Wait a minute which actually never comes, because
dynamics change over time.

Speaker 1 (51:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:53):
Now, what do you think and of course you said
this that one of the aspectsthat we can address education.
But to an extent where we are,we need more than education
because of course, there's abigger problem that is awaiting
us and I think we can see theimpact right now.
I used to tell some of myfriends before COVID that you

(52:13):
know the restrictions, thelockdown and everything looks
okay to address the problemright now, but we're going to
pay for this for the next 10years and you can see it not
only in Kenya, but techcompanies in the US are laying
off people and mass like 30% ofthe workforce, you're told.
You know what?
The job that you used to do, wecan't be able to pay you for it

(52:35):
.
Sorry, he is a severe CEO andthat is going to happen for the
next maybe I don't know eightyears, nine years to come.
What do you think we can doright now?
Because you have to pay theprice.
We have no other option.
You have to pay the price ofmaybe I don't know 50 years
since independence, because Ihear I have seen going through

(52:56):
the history it's not somethingthat just happened with the last
government and I think Kibakitried to address it in a way,
all credits given.
He tried to do it because whenhe said at least the least
educated person should be aclass 8.
That actually addressed a lot ofthings, because at least now
someone can write, can speak,can understand, and that

(53:19):
actually moves you from point Ato B.
Right now, as you sit here andsomeone can correct me I don't
know of any free education.
Someone can correct me, maybein the comment or whatever.
If you go to school and youdon't pay anything in a country
known as Kenya, I want to knowyou, I want to know where that

(53:41):
is, because I don't know Eitheryou're paying I don't know 500
shillings for these.
Yeah, I don't know 500 for thatin one or the other there.
There's some payments around it,yeah, and they call it
logistics, but at the end of theday, it's money.
It's money, and 500 some people, even right now is a lot of
money.
Yeah, people get maybe threethousand, a whole month salary.

(54:02):
Someone has two, three kids.
You can imagine if they canafford those kids and it's
really hard.
So what do you think we can orhow do you think we can address
some of these issues?
Look, I think, I think there'sI don't want to be a defeatist,
but there's a portion, there's apart of, uh, some generations
that I believe.
Uh, there's nothing that canchange for them, that it's done.

Speaker 4 (54:25):
So we have to just wait until they 50, 60, 70 years
.

Speaker 2 (54:29):
You are not going to change those people and the
other ones who are the owners ofCapiton.
It's hard to teach.

Speaker 4 (54:35):
What do?

Speaker 3 (54:35):
they say it's very hard.

Speaker 2 (54:39):
New tricks, but the challenge we have is when you
look at, even what do theyproduce?
those people even not just theirproductivity for like resources
, but in their own homes.
What kind of children, forexample, do they produce?
Are you seeing like there's anyshift between you know somebody
and the child?
Is the child any better thanthe parent and all?
So it has to start from thatfamily level.

(55:01):
If we have found a way to livewithin our means, we are told
okay, so there's no sugar, okay,so we're going to.
I mean many times as you say, Icame from a political family.
But there were many times wedrank black tea without sugar,
we ate bread without a blue bun.
There were times we didn't eatbread, white bread.
Yes, doing this things we wereworking because there was no

(55:22):
transportation.
But then we understood that weare trying to live within our
means for this period, becauseit's the discipline of now, so
that you avoid the regret oflater.
But then if we cannot do thaton the family level, we can't do
it on a national level.
So if the families were notkeeping.
But now, paul with all respect,paul, with all respect you're

(55:45):
eating Ugali for breakfast andsome sugarless tea and then, all
of a sudden, 5 billion hasdisappeared.
And here are the suspects.
Yeah, it abits the logic.

Speaker 3 (56:00):
You know, like.

Speaker 2 (56:02):
What I've been thinking is, for instance, we
need to restore patriotism whenwe say you know what the mistake
has happened and, if at all,you can rectify it because you
already know in your heart thatyou did this, and actually it is
hurting people, and there's nopoint of just you alone winning
and becoming, you know, eitherthe richest person or the most

(56:25):
influential person across thecountry, and other people are
suffering, and here it goes downeven to the health sector.
Why don't we say, from today,henceforth, this is not going to
happen again.
And I'll give you a goodexample.
I don't know if it's the bestexample, but I'll give you a
good example Paul Kagame inRwanda.
The other day we were there andwe were talking with some of the

(56:46):
guys there Some of thosepodcasts will be released.
He said that 28 years ago.
28 years ago, you go to Rwandatoday.
You might call him dictator ifyou want.

Speaker 3 (56:58):
You can see the difference.

Speaker 2 (56:58):
You can call him names that you want, but the guy
is committed and he means whathe says and he says what he
means.
The information is all over theinternet.
You can go and check foryourself.
But when you land in Rwanda,it's a small country, no debate
about that, but can you evenhave that small place that we

(57:19):
say this is a safe haven forpeople who actually want to live
?
You know the right way andstart from there, going upwards,
because, of course, this is notsomething that we can address
within a year or within 10 yearsthat any president is there,
but if we start now, there is abetter future for all of us,
because what I see actuallyhappening, to be honest with you

(57:40):
, is like those who stole, thosewho are corrupt, those who are,
you know, practicing nepot,stole those who are corrupt,
those who are practicingnepotism those who are just
going to run for office, just tosteal, there will be nothing to
steal.
No, that's true and that's whatI was telling you.
I have a feeling that there's acertain generation that is gone
.

Speaker 3 (57:57):
That one.
That's what I was saying.

Speaker 2 (57:58):
We can't change those ones, However there's the
people who now I don't want touse that analogy of leaders of
tomorrow, but the actual peoplethe real, vibrant society which
is 35 and below.
The challenge we're having isthat what have they learned from
their elders who are their rolemodels.
What is it that they can do Ifyour relative, your uncle, your

(58:21):
father gets away with something?

Speaker 3 (58:23):
and comes and celebrates with you and you're
happy with it.

Speaker 2 (58:26):
And even you know you're bragging all over the
place.
Hey, you bought new cars andall these things.
What is going to get you offthat path?
Of course, nothing, you see.
So the challenge is that whatis being handed down to these
fellows who are their rolemodels?
When you hear somebody sayingtheir role model is like a
former governor from Bling Blingwho had all the money in the
world and all these chase carsand everything, that's the life

(58:47):
that somebody is aspiring to,and they also say they didn't
even go to school.
You see, the other challengewe're having is that this school
is not important.

Speaker 1 (58:53):
We're having a bout of education being big.

Speaker 2 (58:56):
We are crashing it with what we're doing on a daily
basis by saying I was shockedthat we don't need a degree to
be a cabinet minister.
I didn't know that.

Speaker 3 (59:05):
I told you we were doing rhetoric the other day.
You don't need a degree.
Who was?

Speaker 2 (59:08):
fired because they didn't even finish primary
school.
Who was the guy?
He's from Western HSA.

Speaker 1 (59:18):
No, it was because of corruption it was other things
that were happening.
It wasn't because of hispaperwork.

Speaker 3 (59:23):
No, it was nothing to do with paperwork.
We have MPs who've gone toClass 6.

Speaker 2 (59:27):
So when you go and tell somebody you need to go to
school, you need to geteducation.
They're asking you why you yougot your education.
When I compare you, these arethe guys who never went to
school.

Speaker 3 (59:36):
These guys are governor now, so what are you
telling?

Speaker 2 (59:37):
me.
So you see, we nationalism ishurting from our own activities,
actions as a nation.
If you could hold that up andsay, look, I mean you remember,
for all his good and bad things,mishuki, whatever it is that he
decided to do, he did it acrossborders and said look, from
today, safety first.
It doesn't matter if thisMatatu transport is owned by a

(01:00:01):
policeman, they will buyseatbelts and fix, they will put
speed governors.

Speaker 1 (01:00:06):
We are.

Speaker 2 (01:00:06):
Biden.
Nobody killed anyone because ofthat thing.
We just woke up and we startedaligning Same thing that you're
saying Kagame did.
He said certain things, certaintenets you have to live by as a
nation One, two, three, four,five things.
He went as far as when donorswould bring money for projects.
you tell them 40-50% usuallygoes back to you because you
bring your cars, you bring yourproject managers.

(01:00:27):
We don't want, if you'rebringing with those strings
attached, stay with your moneyand they aligned and now the
money is there doing work InKenya.
We are still in that placewhere you're talking about we're
going to raise to the people80%.

Speaker 3 (01:00:42):
Why?

Speaker 2 (01:00:42):
Because we have guys there who are, you know, rent
seekers, busybodies in theirmiddlemen.
Oh yeah, I'm the one whobrought the load, yeah, the fuel
, the what, all the money goesin there, whereas the person
who's actually starving remainsstarving.
They don't get as much as theycould have gotten.

Speaker 3 (01:00:59):
So, if you are in place, we had a national creed.

Speaker 2 (01:01:01):
We had a loyalty pledge.
We had social ethics during ourtime.
I have no idea if any of thesethings are still there anymore.
What is there to reference fora child?

Speaker 1 (01:01:12):
who is in school?

Speaker 2 (01:01:13):
When you say you need to go to school.
Why that?
Because is a challenge for youand I.
How are you answering the?
Because?
Because when you go to school,what then?
We can't answer that.
That is the challenge thatparenting is now experiencing.
How are you answering andaddressing that, whereas the
neighbor, who nobody knows whatthis parent does father or

(01:01:33):
mother, but they have the bigcars, they have the.
The kids themselves don't knowwhat the parents do.
They don't know what the fatherdoes, but they live a very
lavish lifestyle.
When this child is growing up,he can't understand what you're
saying about going to school andall.
My father doesn't look like hewent to, doesn't have a degree
or whatever, but he's ranking.
Yours is a professor.
But the fellow doesn't even havea car, so we're having a

(01:01:55):
challenge with the role modelingthat we have created as a
nation.

Speaker 3 (01:02:00):
Not even as a family level.

Speaker 2 (01:02:01):
Now, the other area of growth and where we were
getting self-salvation, was whatthe church the church was
leading in bringing our peoplemorals and all.

Speaker 3 (01:02:09):
Now, suddenly, we are also a conduit.

Speaker 2 (01:02:13):
I can't remember the last time anybody from a church
or we used to have the NCCKs, wehad the Alexander.

Speaker 3 (01:02:19):
Muggers of this world .

Speaker 2 (01:02:21):
Yes, the people would stand and they had the moral
attitude to stand and speak whenyou sit and say hey, on this
issue of taxation on this issueof corruption, on this they
would have a platform.
When is the last time you everheard anybody from the?

Speaker 3 (01:02:36):
church, speak about anything, it just boils down to
the offerings.
This is the challenge we have.

Speaker 2 (01:02:39):
So if they are already partakers, you, If they
are already partakers.
It's the water that comes fromoutside that sinks the boat.

Speaker 3 (01:02:48):
Now, how are they going to sanitize this boat and
dry it when it's still taking inthe water from outside?

Speaker 2 (01:02:51):
So that is the big challenge.
And when the kids you say go tochurch, even in the church
someone is half-half, becausethis fellow last night was given
some money.
So he can't even speak with thelight, with the salt that he's
actually supposed to speak with.
So it is down to now the parentnow we're back to parents and
that's why I'm saying for theparents if we are too busy
chasing around doing things outthere, we are not doing anything

(01:03:12):
for the kids.
We are then setting them up fora worse situation than ours.
Where we are in right now.
What is that?
Corruption has been normalized.
You can go to jail and bereleased the next day.
It's not a big deal.
We're in that kind of society.
So I think there's still achance.
I'm not saying it's a hopelesssituation, because now the world
is a global village and we areseeing a lot of the countries, a

(01:03:34):
lot of areas that are growingis because people are applying
deep thinking, they are applyingintellectual knowledge, they
are getting real substance andcontent that they can utilize to
build their lives.
Not these things of justcopy-pasting and saying my
neighbor did and I'm also goingto do.
I mean, it's a very bad exampleto use, but you set up tomorrow

(01:03:55):
.

Speaker 1 (01:03:55):
An ambassador shop.

Speaker 3 (01:03:56):
Yes, I was going to say a salon or a barber shop out
here.

Speaker 2 (01:03:59):
There's no competition.
The whole region, everybodywill be coming to your shop.
They will be coming to yoursalon and doing all these things
Within three months Withinwhich?

Speaker 3 (01:04:06):
three months Within one month.

Speaker 2 (01:04:09):
Another fellow will come.
Instead of him setting up ashop that can send combs and
oils and wigs, he will set upanother salon like yours.

Speaker 3 (01:04:17):
Exactly, you have set up the traffic.

Speaker 2 (01:04:19):
Already You've created the goodwill in the area
.
The market is ready.
Now, where you are getting ahundred, you're getting 50.
He also gets his 50.
Another man, things is happy.
Another month, a third fellowcomes.
Yeah, this guy seemed to bemaking money.
Okay, borrows money fromsomewhere, comes and sets up
another one.
Now there's three of you.
So that's the challenge we'rehaving and that's a very good

(01:04:40):
example of given, because I'mthinking about it.
Even in the tech ecosystemright now, fintech has become a
very huge startup investmentvehicle for different countries
across Africa and right now youcannot count how many fintech
companies we have in place in aspan of three, four years.

(01:05:02):
Yeah, that have come up becausethey hear that.
You know flutter.
We've got an investment.
Yes, you know a company, xyzyou're like this is it?
I'm gonna build this fintech andI think that's a mentality that
actually should actually shunfrom, because there is so much
that we can do.
Even I'm thinking about if yousank the well that we're talking
about in a few minutes gone inNortheastern, it's a big

(01:05:27):
business.
If you think about it, if youfigure out drainage right now,
with the dry season, the whole.
Nairobi is smelling because thesewage system is not working.
If you do this, actually, howmany towns can you duplicate
this?
Mombasa, there's Nakuru,there's Kisumu no one is

(01:05:49):
thinking about that.
If you think about garbage andI'm not talking about the ones
that people go to the estatescollecting, you know and
charging tenants for that.
I'm talking about making thecity clean and you have a
contract with the countygovernment and say you know what
, enough of garbage collectionand employ some people to do the

(01:06:11):
work every day.
We could get way ahead andcreate so many jobs, but we are
not ready to do it, and for whatreason, I don't know.
No, because in mental it ishard work.
Yeah, I told you about the pathof least resistance.

Speaker 4 (01:06:28):
If you give me option , A and B, and B is easy, I will
go with B, even if A will takeme further.

Speaker 2 (01:06:35):
I will go with B Because that's where the mind
says ah, quickly, quickly, let'smake this thing work.
I don't know who was giving theanalogy about.
I had a hard life, mygrandfather had a hard life.
I have a softer life.
My father was has an okay life,may have a very soft life, my
kids most likely going to havemedium soft life.
Their children will have a hardlife.

(01:06:57):
Their children's children willbe able to have a terrible life
and then the cycle repeats.
So they say these are this isthe way they say it.
They say good times create badpeople the name they use and
then the bad times create no.

(01:07:18):
Good times create bad men, andbad times create good men.
And then it becomes a cycle ifyou're not careful.
And that's why I don't know ifthis is a good example when you
look at Israel and how it works.
Israel is always way ahead ofthe cup because they can't
afford the luxury of iterationof different handovers.

(01:07:41):
And even when you meet them indifferent places because they
travel a lot that's one of thethings that Israelites do.
You will see.
Always they're articulatinglike what solution can I offer?

Speaker 1 (01:07:52):
Yes, every day.

Speaker 2 (01:07:53):
Every day.
They go back after every twoyears because it's a whole
community and this is the pointI want to drive it to.
Like Africa, we have anopportunity to recreate and
correct and learn from theseother continents.
Mistake, because for us atleast, you have a community as
much as we have these bordersand everything.

(01:08:14):
When Africans meet, by the way,you never know, this is Kenya
we look the same we think thesame, we love maybe even food
the same.
We think the same, we love maybeeven food the same way, we eat
the same.
There are a couple ofsimilarities that we share, so
we can actually, with education,of course, we can actually
leapfrog from where we are rightnow, which is at the bottom of

(01:08:40):
the pyramid and at the bottom ofthe food chain, and build
something that actually theworld can learn from From the
way we educate our people, theway we manage our issues, the
way we even manage the resourcesbecause there's so much
resources that actually we havein Africa and even the way we

(01:09:00):
grow economically.
you know infrastructure,socially, in everything, in
every aspect.
And just to like, bring youback now to the parenting about
your dad.
Was he a disciplinarian or howdid he bring a fine man like you

(01:09:24):
think?
I think I'm getting you whereyou're and I'll and I'll define
the fine man here.
I know you're heading thequestion, but so my dad was
lucky that, uh, in the 50s,while he was growing up because
he was very bright in class.
He got a scholarship from the Idon't know if it still exists
quakers, that's FriendsInternational.

(01:09:44):
The Quakers were a very bigmovement in the UK at that time.
Have you ever heard of theprogram.
Back in the 90s were they there.
I think they're there even now.
There's some churches that arestill operational.
Friends International, theglobal church, is called the
Quakers.
They came and set up a churchsomewhere in our home home

(01:10:05):
county and they identified someyoung people.
And he stood out because he was,you know, quite, he was a sharp
guy.
So they picked him and saidokay, sent him to the UK.
So he was in Bristol, I thinksix years.
He was a bachelor's, master's.
By the time he came back he wasa teacher.
He came back back, he was readyhigh school or primary.
He was a high school teacher.

(01:10:26):
Okay, yeah, kisi high schooltaught in upper hill and other
schools when he came back now hewas promoted to become a
lecturer, so he's a dean ofstudents at university for many
years about four years at somepoint along the way, the
villagers just came and saidlook, man, this is a waste of um
talent, waste of sources.
What is this you're doing you?

Speaker 3 (01:10:46):
know teaching.
We are here suffering.

Speaker 2 (01:10:47):
We need people already represented and yeah,
there were very powerfulpoliticians at that time.
Very powerful name, some names.
Yeah, there was a gentlemancalled broody nabuera.
That time it was called lurambi, lurambi North.

Speaker 4 (01:11:01):
Now it is four constituencies okay it was split
into like Malava Lugari, kiani,yeah, there are four
constituencies from the one, sothe chief ran all those four,
yes, diligently the governmentis closer to us now anyway,
Logan Shorty he went up withagainst the likes of Moses
Mudavadi

Speaker 2 (01:11:19):
that's Mudavadi's dad was like the kingpin in Western
, so he fought some seriousbattles In that aspect of
exposure.
Because of having gone to theUK and then come back and lived
with communities across you knowteachers are posted anywhere
lived with all the communitiesacross Kenya, he understood how
tribes live and why this tribething is a fallacy.
However, he also understoodthat it's not always about the

(01:11:42):
threats, about the beatings andall it is.
What example do you show forpeople to pick up from you and
say I want to be like so and soso for us, for my, my whole life
.

Speaker 3 (01:11:52):
I was never killed by my dad my mom came, not even as
okay, yeah, my mom, I would bedumped one of them has to be
doing the discipline part ofthings, so my mom had to carry
that bit, but it is because allshe needed to say was that I'm
going to tell your dad.

Speaker 2 (01:12:07):
And you see, because I held him in such high regard,
I felt so bad to let him down,Like I've done something wrong
that needs to come to hisattention.
Shouldn't.

Speaker 3 (01:12:16):
So that was enough.

Speaker 2 (01:12:18):
And because of that I wouldn't say he was.
Having been a teacher and beingtrained to teach, he knew how
to deal with children.
Having learned how to deal withchildren, and to that level of
expertise, of course, he wouldknow what to do with adults.
So I think we had a good balanceabout authoritarianism and just
being meek enough or modestenough to allow for free thought

(01:12:42):
within the area.
And what do you want to be?
I want to be this and the other.
For information when he went tothe UK he wanted to be a lawyer
.
His father told him lawyers areliars.

Speaker 3 (01:12:52):
They take people's money, they cheat.

Speaker 2 (01:12:53):
Even when you're guilty, you can go and somebody
will go and put up a case foryou and they will win the case,
even you killed.
Now, I have nothing againstlawyers.
They do a fantastic job.

Speaker 3 (01:13:03):
But it stuck so strongly in my dad.

Speaker 2 (01:13:05):
But a lot of that is true that he refused.
He didn't take up law, yet hehad a great chance to be a
brilliant lawyer.
And he says even later in lifehe said no, no, no, I could
still have it.
I don't have a problem.
He said I took my dad's wordsso seriously and I saw his logic
in terms of for sure, if youhave a case and you've killed
someone, you need a lawyer.
Imagine the lawyer gets you offthe hook.

(01:13:26):
What happens?
What does the family of theperson you killed think?
You know, lawyers are bad andall this.
So it created a bit of a poisonin our minds as children Like,
yeah, this law thing much as itis very, very, very necessary.

Speaker 3 (01:13:43):
So, no lawyer in your family.
No, we don't have lawyers.

Speaker 2 (01:13:44):
We don't have lawyers because of that, Because we're
like it could mean for him tosurvive, to do a good job.
They have to get you off thehook.
Whether you're guilty or not.

Speaker 3 (01:13:50):
I mean that's what happens, and rightfully.
That's what the law says.

Speaker 2 (01:13:54):
Come and argue your case.

Speaker 3 (01:13:57):
Forget about.
What can reasonable doubt?
What can you prove?

Speaker 2 (01:13:59):
If the other fellow can't prove that you actually
killed him, no death occurred.
Life goes on, because where'sthe body, where's the weapon,
all these things?
So I think we learned from that.
But, to answer your question,he was very open in terms of
allowing free speech, freethought, so that you get to the
level where you're required toinnovate, and all that.

(01:14:22):
But it was good trouble becauseit was like ah yeah, you know,
even lying takes a lot ofintelligence.
It's usually to say that if youdon't have a child that lies,
your child is a bit dumb.
Once in a while they need tolie.

Speaker 3 (01:14:34):
When they are growing up.

Speaker 2 (01:14:36):
Because otherwise they can't think out of a
situation.
They'll always be stuck and say, yeah, this is what happened,
and those ones?
Yeah, there's obviously otherroles.
They can be priests and all.
But in life you have to find away that you can survive.
Not to be a liar, but to beunderstanding what is the best
way to get myself out of adifficult situation lawfully.
So he allowed us to be freethinkers and be just, you know,

(01:14:59):
execute on our skills andtalents to the best of our
abilities yeah but when I comeback to just thinking through
the way what you are raising interms of um africa as a
continent, you see, much asyou're saying, we are bottom of
pyramid.
You see, there's a big, big umdrive around even just this
fintech space, but it's becauseeven the likes of mps and all
these new, new age things thatwe've founded, a lot of them are

(01:15:21):
not even in those first ones.
I mean, the other day one of mybrothers is in the US and he
married somebody from Canada.
He cannot send money from theUS to Canada.
He has to, cannot, he has to goand deposit it in a bank and
then the bank needs to have abranch in Canada that they can
go and withdraw that money.

Speaker 3 (01:15:40):
Today.

Speaker 2 (01:15:40):
I'm not talking about used to be.
This is the current situationand we are here sending money to
people in South Africa, inNigeria, in all these places,
tech is the leverage forleapfrogging Just through your
phone.
Yes, it is the leverage forleapfrogging, so that we don't
have to make the same mistakes,these fellows made?
We don't have to take 300 yearsto get to where the US is
hundred years to get to wherethe US is?

Speaker 3 (01:16:00):
We don't, but then what we have?
So my dream is valid.

Speaker 4 (01:16:03):
It is valid.

Speaker 2 (01:16:05):
What is holding your dream back is leadership.
Yes, because the US had allthese years to make mistakes
with their leaders and they hadthe resources to burn with those
leaders.
We don't have that luxury.
We do not have enough.

Speaker 3 (01:16:18):
Everyone is depending on Africa.

Speaker 2 (01:16:21):
Yeah, we can't 50 years is enough time for us to
still be dying of hunger 50years is enough.
Yeah, there's got to be a timewhen you wake up and say look
going forward this is what isgoing to happen.
Yes, If we're not on that level, if for me, if you know, my
auntie or my mother is unwelland she's, you know, maybe she's
in Nairobi, she's, you know,maybe she's in nairobi she's
been going to hospital inkakamega he has to carry her

(01:16:44):
x-rays and all these otherthings from kakamega to nairobi
to go to hospital and presentthem there
yeah because hospital has no wayof telling what treatment has
she been receiving in kakamegano way and take an action.

Speaker 3 (01:16:56):
Yeah, that's a basic thing.

Speaker 2 (01:16:57):
Yeah, you know when you go and say, okay, this is,
there's a challenge around thesoil.
We've been planting maize allover these years.
Now the maize has been goingfrom 14 bags to 12 bags to 10.
Now we're on six bags.
Tech can tell you that soil isdepleted.
We need to figure out a way toreplenish it.
What can we do?
All times, you know, they usedold school ways Just leave the
land follow.
And the Bible usually says oh,seven years and all these things

(01:17:18):
we don't have that type anymore.
But I can tell you, instead ofnow planting maize, let's do
beans.
Even in wine school we used todo science and agriculture.
We were told when you plantmaize, the next season plant
beans plant.
It was very basic.
Now nobody wants to think thatway because it's too much work
to flip from the maize to thebeans, to the whatever, and yet
nutrients into the ground.

(01:17:39):
So if we start doing the basicsright, a lot of these other
things will come together.
But so long as we are behovenand slaves of politicians, it's
going to be a difficult ride forus to get to where we need to
get to.
That's my only challenge.
I wish we could get to thepoint where the US say, even if
they get a monkey as a presidentI'm not saying they have gotten
monkeys in the past but if theydon't get a monkey?

(01:18:01):
life goes on.

Speaker 3 (01:18:03):
Yes, it doesn't affect their day-to-day yeah
yeah, we can't, because theyhave set enough systems yes in
place.

Speaker 2 (01:18:08):
People will not die because so, and so is president
or this party is out of power.
Look at britain.
They flip these things the waywe flip burgers within yeah
every week within days, there'sanother leader, life goes on.
okay, fine.
There are some, you know,glitches here and there because
of policies, poor policies thathave been implemented, that are
affecting revenues and pensionsand things like those incomes,

(01:18:29):
inflation, but by and large,life goes on.
Society moves on.
We have to get to that point asAfricans, we have to get to the
point where politics is not thecenter of our lives.
Because otherwise it means whenyou're trying to innovate
something.

Speaker 3 (01:18:40):
You, Because otherwise it means when you're
trying to innovate, somethingyou have to start worrying is
somebody from KRA going to comeand bust me before this thing is
ready.

Speaker 2 (01:18:47):
We've heard of so many stories of guys who've come
back with brilliant ideas toKenya.
They've set up industries andthey've been hounded out of
those industries because oftaxes and compliance and things,
and the guys who are houndingcannot even run a kiosk, but
they are killing this guy whohas come with an enterprise that
is going to employ over athousand people.
That's the sad bit there's toomuch government in our lives
Backward mentality yes, too muchgovernment, just stay away, let

(01:19:09):
me do my thing, let me grow mypeople.
At some point when the revenuesare good, you can come and start
taxing.

Speaker 4 (01:19:21):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:19:22):
And they have not even started working.

Speaker 1 (01:19:24):
I mean, where are they even getting?

Speaker 2 (01:19:25):
There's no means, so you're stepping the seed when
it's still in the ground.
Now they say each person withan ID should get a care.

Speaker 1 (01:19:32):
ID.

Speaker 2 (01:19:34):
We are bereft of ideas, then, that's the problem,
but the challenge also is thatwe are still thinking old ways,
old school.
We're not thinking new stuff.
Do you think becoming rich alsodoes something to your mind?
You stop reasoning or thinking.
We alluded to it in thebeginning when you were talking
about why do people change whenthey get to certain environments

(01:19:56):
.
The truth of the matter iswealth should not change a
person.

Speaker 3 (01:19:59):
If you're a small-minded person, it just
amplifies who you are.

Speaker 2 (01:20:01):
Yes, if you're a small-minded person.
It just amplifies who you are.
Yes, if you're a small-mindedperson with poor money habits
even when you get a lot of money, you still have the poor money
habit.
We know people who are wealthytycoons, but within a year or
two of dying, the family isbankrupt.
Yes, yeah, because you don'tknow there were loans.
You don't know when you thisgrass is green, you don't know
what it is.
It could be dead bodies underthere that are rotting to make

(01:20:22):
the grass green?
You have no idea, but you wantto say I want my grass to be
green like so and so.
That guy has been killingpeople and they are under there
fertilizing his grass.
Be careful.
So I think it just shows thatthe wealth shouldn't really
change a person.
They actually, as you say, yourheart skill, what is your heart

(01:20:48):
skill?
You know what is, what is your,what is in your heart.
It comes out louder depending onpoverty or wealth, yeah, when
it is small, with poverty, eventhe guys who are poor they share
, they give each other actuallythe most kindest.
Yes, yeah, those fellows, whenthey grow and they become bigger
, it's because they associatewith the wrong people.
They get into the crowds wherethe other wealthy fellows who
have already tainted thatsociety.
Now they stick in there andstart trying to be like them.

Speaker 3 (01:21:04):
That's the challenge.

Speaker 2 (01:21:05):
But if these people would remain in their own
communities with their wealth,they would never change.
They would never become thatBecause all of them now they're
in Nairobi.
All of them like now they havehouses in all these poshy places
and the ones.
I don't know the ones, I don'tknow the ones who retired still
remain in Nairobi, or whathappens, but all of them are
here, regardless of where theywere voted, and they just go

(01:21:27):
there to visit.
Well, it makes a lot of sensebecause the parliament is here,
but nevertheless you should beable to commute because you have
all the luxury of the cars.
You're given some allowance.
So what you're seeing actuallycan be done.
And Kenya is not that huge.
There's nowhere you can getwithin 24 hours if you want and
if you started by the way if youtold me, like you're talking

(01:21:48):
about hospitals and having thesechallenges, the way, for
example, Kagame has done andenforced so many things.
At one day he woke up and saidno more French.
We will have to be taughtSwahili and we had all these
teachers migrating from Kenya togo and teach in Rwanda and they
built and then they improvedthe public schools so much that
private schools just closed ontheir own.

Speaker 1 (01:22:06):
They were not told to close, they just closed because
there's no business.

Speaker 2 (01:22:09):
So the same way, if you go and say if you're coming
from Kakamega County, you're theMP or the governor, the only
way your NHIF and your educationor whatever works is if you
procure those services from yourcounty.
That means what?
If your children are going toKakamega primary school, you
have to improve the facilitiesin Kakamega primary school so
that your kids can go there.
If you want to go to hospital,you're going to Kakamega general

(01:22:31):
hospital.
You have to improve thefacilities in Kakamega because
that's where your mother, yoursisters, your relatives are
going to.
But if it is open, the way itis, three quarters of these
fellows when they are sick theyare all here in Nairobi.
They don't care about thoselocal hospitals.

Speaker 3 (01:22:44):
And sometimes maybe they go abroad.

Speaker 2 (01:22:46):
Now, if you force them and say we're only going to
pay as taxpayers If your childis going to the local school
there, if you're going to thehospital there, if you go
outside of those boundaries,that is on you, that is your
personal bill.
Maybe a law, such a law, wouldbe passed.
You would see how facilitieswould improve in five years
because your grandfather getssick once, twice and he can only
go to the local hospital.
You will improve that localhospital and everybody else will

(01:23:07):
benefit when they say, okay,now you're living in that area
because we are giving you ahouse and we are building it for
you in the county.
That's the only house that isfree.
If you come to Nairobi, you payrent like anyone else and it's
not, then they will stick thereand they'll start improving the
houses, they'll start improvingthe building codes, they'll
start improving the roads, watersupply and all these things.
But if three quarters of thetime, like the guys in
Northeastern, they all live herein Nairobi, when you're talking

(01:23:30):
about hunger, the guy is heretalking about hunger, but he's
busy feasting.

Speaker 3 (01:23:33):
This is in Sicily or wherever it is, what is?

Speaker 2 (01:23:35):
the resonance.
Then you want me from Eldorewhatever to fundraise for that
fellow, and I know the guy sitsin Nairobi.

Speaker 3 (01:23:43):
Are we helping his county?
Yet it doesn't make sense.

Speaker 2 (01:23:45):
All the money is being burnt in Nairobi.
So I think there are somethings we can do.
We have put our standards solow, so low that it is
ridiculous that we are evenexisting as a nation, because I
mean the things that pass as low.
You sit and you ask yourself Imean, this is the best that we

(01:24:10):
can do.
Yeah, the other day we saw andI'm not critic anyone, but we
have this 45, 50 million peoplewe went and picked 22 of the
best of this, the million.
That is what we are showcasingto the world, that's our cabinet
the best because you see, aspresident, you have leeway to
pick anyone, anyone.
those are the best ones youcould get.
Now, if those are the standards, I'm having a problem telling
my child look, go to school, getthis degree, go out, expose
yourself.
They're like no, this is notthe society I want to live in,
and it is no wonder.
When these techies come andthey get opportunities, they are

(01:24:32):
in.
Let's say, you know Safaricom,and they are doing a good job,
they are creating stuff.
And then Google comes,microsoft, and they go and they
are moved with three times thepay, for example, but they are
going to do a fraction of whatthey were doing in Safaricom.
In fact, many times they areidle, as in their brains are not
really activated, they aredoing things that are repetitive
.
They are very mundane tasks, butthey are being paid a good

(01:24:54):
salary.
They sit there, of course, pathof least resistance.
What happens?
The cells that you would havebeen using to drive growth and
innovation?
They die out because they'renot being utilized, and then you
get to new people.

Speaker 1 (01:25:04):
Is this what is happening?

Speaker 2 (01:25:06):
Yeah, that's how the brain drain is happening from
likes of Safaricom, kcb andmoving into now, because when
they're going there their workrate is nothing compared to what
they do in Safaricom.

Speaker 4 (01:25:15):
There is paradise man .

Speaker 2 (01:25:17):
Understandably, they've earned it because they
have the skills, but can thisguy?

Speaker 3 (01:25:22):
do his nine to five there.

Speaker 2 (01:25:24):
Did you just say paradise?

Speaker 4 (01:25:26):
Now I'm interested.
Can he do his nine to five atthat place and then five to nine
do something for the community,to build himself, to innovate,
to create something.

Speaker 2 (01:25:34):
That's what I've always been challenging the guys
who I come across in thisstartup environment.

Speaker 1 (01:25:37):
Fine.

Speaker 2 (01:25:38):
Work in as many of these organizations as you can,
because you need to get beststandards.
You need to understand how theworld works, how systems work,
Work in these big companies, getthat knowledge, then go and set
up something using thatknowledge that helps other
people also Not to go there, andyou're just forever.
You just want to be a guy whowaits for end month.
Create something, yes, yeah, bea creator as well, so that you

(01:25:59):
build the society for people tohave that ambition to say we can
do better, otherwise we justwait to be picked off.
First we had the doctors.
There was the migration theyall left.
Then we had nurses anotherdrive they all left.
Now we are on the take-easy.

Speaker 1 (01:26:12):
Yeah, yeah, they are all exiting.

Speaker 2 (01:26:14):
No they are leaving.
You can't blame them Becausewhen they say, okay, you'll be
charged 15% tax.
It is 15% tax wherever they go.
You'll be charged 20% when yougo.
The train comes at 10 o'clock.
The train comes at 10.

Speaker 3 (01:26:28):
Yes, yes, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:26:28):
And you see where your tax goes.
Yes, here we are gambling.
We are gamblers.

Speaker 4 (01:26:32):
National gamblers and the security is not ensured.

Speaker 2 (01:26:35):
There's no guarantee.
Who knows when you leave withthe money, I can't blame anyone
who is leaving.

Speaker 3 (01:26:42):
Actually, I would encourage them.
That's the challenge, so Ican't blame them.

Speaker 2 (01:26:45):
And then now, when I pass out, I wake up and say,
okay, now we're going toincrease this tax and the other
tax, even the little one thatyou are collecting.
We don't know where it wasgoing.
Now you want to increase itthree, four times.
Where is it going to go?
Guys who are coming up theyouth, they don't care.
They don't give two hoots aboutnationalism and, I don't know,
patriotism and all these things.

Speaker 3 (01:27:05):
Where's the money?
Yes, we'll chase it.
Is this what I want to do?

Speaker 2 (01:27:08):
Yes, this thing where I used to say people do one,
two, three, five years of workin one employer.
Nowadays you're lucky if youget to three years.
You're very lucky and I cannotblame anyone.
I mean, yeah, opportunitiesarise.
Life is short, as they say,even if it's the longest thing
you'll ever do.

Speaker 4 (01:27:23):
They move, they move, they get to the next thing.

Speaker 2 (01:27:25):
they move and move and move.
So the only pain or complaint Iwould have is when they are not
looking back and pulling othersup.
And looking back and pullingothers up is creating stuff
which other people can utilizeto grow to the next level, To
the level where we can say, okay, let's get a national system
that can automate countyfunctions.
I can look at the budget forNarok and tell how much has been

(01:27:46):
spent this quarter.
What is left?
What are the projects ofpriority?
What is the governor going todo next year?
What is his priority aroundwater?
Then we can turn around and sayyes, let me come with an idea
that can help this guy in Narok,because I can see he has a
problem with water.
As it is, everything is sorryto use a word opaque.
You can't tell what is where.

(01:28:06):
The opaque nature of things,yeah.
So how are you going to help?

Speaker 1 (01:28:10):
0.01 errors, you cannot apply any of your skills
to help anyone Chief.

Speaker 2 (01:28:17):
I like how you think and, of course, as you said,
we'll go chronologically so thatwe can understand.
And even if there's a young guywho will listen to us or watch
us, they can understand evenwhat they're doing right now.
They're on the right track.
And even because, by and large,I believe there's one

(01:28:38):
fundamental problem, and it'sactually caused by only one
problem, which is corruption.
And that's why even someonelooks up and says why would I
work?
And I can just become an MP orbecome a governor and you know,
my life is sorted.
And this problem is mindset,because, number one, our schools

(01:29:02):
, even the way they are rightnow, they're designed to
brainwash us to think the sameway.
Can you imagine 40 millioneducated?
That's like hypothetical.
Yeah, if we had 40 millioneducated people, they're
educated the same way to competefor the same opportunities and
actually to like even do thingsthe same way, for lack of a

(01:29:25):
better definition.
So if we're able to change themindset, then we can address
some of the issues very easily,because now people tend to think
how CBC is designed.
It is not perfect, but it is away of getting people to do
things by themselves and also toexplore what they can do and
what they can't.

(01:29:46):
So if we change mindsets andthat actually happens from you
learning from other people, andI believe more on apprenticeship
, where you learn by doing,where you learn, you learn by
looking and doing yeah andthat's why I like when, uh, our
guests share their, theirjourney, as opposed to like say
you know, I was so and so Iopened this.
I'm an entrepreneur and, by theway this is something

(01:30:08):
interesting Very few Kenyanbillionaires.
You'll sit with them down andthey tell you, chronologically,
how they did it To even gettingthe first billion, and it's so
sad because now there's nothingto learn from those people.
You only know they are rich Ofcourse you can see from what
they are doing.
And also you associate richnessor wealthiness with wrong things

(01:30:29):
.
Because someone has a car, youthink they are very wealthy.
Because someone maybe lives ina Porsche area, you think they
are very wealthy.
And, as you said, you saidsomething very important A
billionaire dies and you arelike ah, there were loans, so
all this life was just asyntactic life right.
So if we change mindset and sayyou know what, if you're living

(01:30:51):
in your place, you can afford tohave a meal, maybe you have a
family, you can afford toeducate your children, it's okay
.
You don't need to swing for thefences for you to think that
you're okay and it's okay.
You don't need to swing for thefences for you to think that
you're okay and some of thesethings, actually you can acquire
them, but also you can use themto even enable you or your
family to get to a better place.

(01:31:11):
So, that said, I think where weescalated this conversation was
the primary school.
So we just first struck, maybe,the primary school.
But if there's anythingimportant that you think you
should share for someone who isthe primary school, right.
So we just first struck, maybe,the primary school.
But if there's anythingimportant that you think you
should share for someone who isin primary school, that actually
you learned a lot.
And I'll ask one singlequestion around that.

(01:31:34):
I know you did the sevensubjects.
Yeah, seven, sub-calls that one.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, I did five.

Speaker 1 (01:31:42):
So so you are slightly better.

Speaker 2 (01:31:46):
Yeah, I just transitioned.
When people are doing, is itfive?
Now even I can't remember.
There's been so many changesyou can't track in 2002 there so
that's yeah, they might havereduced five.
Yeah, five, now even now theyhave brought them back.
I remember I used to do art andcraft, which was really amazing
.

Speaker 3 (01:32:03):
I was a good artist.

Speaker 2 (01:32:06):
But after they changed I was like I have to.
Why do I need to draw?
You understand.
But now I see how you can eventransform those kind of talents
to sciences.
When you come to doing thearchitecture, come to doing UI,
UX, graphic design, there's somuch application besides just
becoming someone who drawspeople's faces, Like I see

(01:32:29):
nowadays on the internet, thereare people who actually are
doing that business.
It's so sad.
I'm not saying it's a badbusiness, but it's so sad
because it's not scalable.
If you're not doing it, there'sno one else who can do it
essentially so.
Mine was was, and you can answeraccording to what you think is
important.
Like me, I like asking a verysimple question how are you able

(01:32:49):
to pass your exam?
To get to, is it called libon?
You are a label yeah, yes sohow are you able to hack the kcp
, because I know it as much asthe multiple choice.
It is not that directly easy.
So how are you able to do astudy plan and be able to pass

(01:33:10):
that?
Or if your dad pulled thestring, which you know most
leaders do?

Speaker 3 (01:33:15):
but according to what ?

Speaker 2 (01:33:16):
you described to your dad.
I don't think he's the kind ofa guy who would do that.
But if he did that, don't shyaround.
He did it, yes, uh, becausealso I know, like bonnie, back
in the day was alive.
Yeah, become a guy.
It was much I don't know aboutnow, but yeah, you can share
that experience.
Yeah, so I think for me whatsaved me in primary school was I

(01:33:39):
was a anid reader, so just read.
So you read all the books, yes,and that would mean you read
newspapers.

Speaker 1 (01:33:47):
We were lucky those days.

Speaker 2 (01:33:49):
Newspapers were still affordable.

Speaker 1 (01:33:51):
Now you have to think To a child of an MP.

Speaker 2 (01:33:55):
Put it that way.

Speaker 3 (01:33:57):
Let me give you the context.

Speaker 2 (01:33:58):
Me I saw newspapers in some restaurants where you
went to eat.
That is also applicable, you canimagine if the guy who worked
in that restaurant the onlyfailure he has is if he never
used to read that, becauseimagine the owner has probably
bought it for two years andmaybe they never read it.
So, as you say, opportunitiescome, they don't always tell you
I am an opportunity, but me Iwas lucky because, number one,

(01:34:20):
those newspapers, but two, Iwent to a school that had a
library, so that was very goodand that's something that, yeah,
primary school it was very rare, I agree with you.
And it's not far it's just yeah, lavington Primary, of course.
That's a library, of course.

Speaker 1 (01:34:35):
But I was living in.

Speaker 2 (01:34:37):
Ofafajariko at that time, so I used to commute
across bus number 50.
They would come all the way.
One bus to Lovington and backto Ofafa, Jericho, so Jerusalem.
We went through that life.
But anyway, long and short is Iused to read as much as I could
.
Let me make some context here,so for, those who are living in
Ofafa Jericho.
The Ofafa Jericho you areliving right now is not the

(01:34:58):
Ofafa, jericho Paul is talkingabout.
That was like a Loavington backthen.
It was a good place and then Ithink Lavington then was a new
estate.
It wasn't even built up.

Speaker 3 (01:35:09):
Oh, it was just another place.

Speaker 2 (01:35:11):
It was mostly bushy.

Speaker 3 (01:35:13):
Most of this area was owned by the court, it still is
Most of the people bought theland.

Speaker 2 (01:35:17):
We are in Lavington right now the people who bought
land here did not call theindigenous trees this is 30,
maybe 20, 30 years old most ofthe area here even the buildings
, so this whole area was justopen, open ground owned by one
guy at that time called I thinkit was Ole Tip.
Tip Does he have a relationshipwith the other Ole Tip Tip.

(01:35:38):
It was the original Ole Tip Tip.

Speaker 4 (01:35:41):
So the other one is his son.
Yes, john.

Speaker 2 (01:35:43):
Keynes.
You know they held land intrust and they had a lot of
education.

Speaker 4 (01:35:48):
Were they Maasai's yes?

Speaker 3 (01:35:48):
they were Maasai's, so it's true what they say about
Nairobi yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:35:51):
Nairobi was Maasai land, so how that shifted.
I thought it's just no, it'snot something that happened
before.
It's during our generation thatthis shift happened.
All these Levington Cubs, allthese areas this was bush.
We used to play in this.
It was just open ground anyway.
How those shifted, that'shistorians to tell you.

(01:36:13):
So I would read anything andeverything I could find.
That was the first.
Secondly, because my dad was upand down.
It meant that I needed tocommunicate.
You see, I would go home, likeon a Tuesday.
He's still in parliament.
I've come home, I had my dinner, I've slept, comes in the night
and he leaves again at six inthe morning or five.
I'm not awake yet.
By the time I wake up he's gone, but I can tell he was around

(01:36:38):
because he's come.

Speaker 1 (01:36:39):
He has changed shoes.
There's a newspaper, maybe it'sfor yesterday, like that, so
every day.

Speaker 2 (01:36:43):
Then I realized I can't sit up and wait for this
fellow.
It's too late and I can't wakeup very early to catch him.
So he devised what Acommunication system, which was
what Writing notes.

Speaker 4 (01:36:56):
So I had to write a letter.

Speaker 2 (01:36:58):
So you started writing at a very At class two,
expressing myself and saying howschool was and what I need.
Okay, and then he would comehome.
Those would be one of thethings I know when I look back.
I would say, as a parent, Iwould look forward to such.
Yeah, I've been written for anote by my child and he would
come and he would respond.
I don't know what he's talkingabout.

Speaker 3 (01:37:19):
But at least he's communicating.

Speaker 2 (01:37:20):
But it's interesting Because I kept some of those
notes.
Then he says down there okay,so let me look for some money
Until today you have the notes.

Speaker 4 (01:37:25):
I still have some of them yes, oh amazing.

Speaker 2 (01:37:26):
I look for some of these, the money that you've
asked for.
Let's see what we can do bytomorrow.
When I come in the evening I go, even if I haven't seen him.
Then you go the next day, likethat, like that, on Wednesday he
comes now, he leaves a note andhe has folded the money in the

(01:37:47):
note that I had written.

Speaker 3 (01:37:47):
So when I just find it.

Speaker 2 (01:37:48):
I'm like man, I've made it this week.
So, I get the money.

Speaker 3 (01:37:51):
I do that.

Speaker 2 (01:37:51):
I move on so he never like sent someone to do like
your mom Now two things happenbecause of that.
Sometimes he would write a notein Swahili.
Now I know this is personal forus, so I can't give somebody
else to read for me this note.
You never knew Swahili, so Ihad to now step up my Swahili.

Speaker 3 (01:38:12):
Oh, your Swahili was not that good, it wasn't that
bad.

Speaker 2 (01:38:14):
yeah, but now if he's writing in Swahili, you see he
had been to Makerere, he hadbeen to Dar es Salaam University
as well lecturing there, so hehad some very good Swahili, I'm
like even I have to learn how tospeak this Swahili so I now not
just learn to speak, but I hadto write it, so I learnt that so
because of that, I was forcedto be good in Swahili and
English, remember he had been tothe UK so I can't write broken

(01:38:38):
English.
He'll underline so even there'ssome learning that is going on
he's marking my notes, so ifhe's doing that by the time
we've done three months.
Man, my writing is on anotherlevel.
There was never.
I remember I got Swahili andEnglish both in primary school
and high school.
I got straight A's nice Swahiliand English because of that

(01:38:58):
because of just that keenness ofand then he would come and say
okay, now he brought nationyesterday, today he has brought
Taifaleo, Taifaleo, yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:39:04):
Now I'm wondering this is our only newspaper in
Swahili.

Speaker 3 (01:39:06):
I'm going to read this paper Interestingly.

Speaker 2 (01:39:08):
people don't know this and I think it's good to
mention that Taifaleo writesgood soil.

Speaker 3 (01:39:13):
I don't know if they do that nowadays, but I used to
read detailed as the nation ormaybe standard group.

Speaker 2 (01:39:20):
I mean standard newspaper that writes in English
.

Speaker 3 (01:39:26):
But it wrote good.

Speaker 2 (01:39:26):
Swahili pieces that people could learn from, and you
see, swahili doesn't have manystories.
Yes, yes, if you're statingfacts, you're stating facts.
English, you know, is flowery.
You can add things, and allthat's why the Swahili newspaper
was very thin.

Speaker 3 (01:39:35):
But you read the story when you look at the
translation in English.

Speaker 2 (01:39:38):
The English one has taken two pages.
This thing is half a page.

Speaker 3 (01:39:41):
It has said what needs to be said.

Speaker 2 (01:39:43):
Now he can write, and he just wishes to write in
Swahili.
Now I have to figure out wordsin Swahili, If I'm asking for
something books Okay what isbooks?
I figure out.
What is pen?
What is ink?
What is fountain pen?

Speaker 1 (01:39:54):
You know things which in studies do you ask for I
have to start figuring them out.

Speaker 2 (01:39:58):
Yes.
So the point I'm trying to makeis that, because there was a
drive from communicating with mydad, I never had a worry about
my language, so it createdcuriosity in you over time.
Yes, my language.
Then because it used to bringthings for reading again.
I read a lot.
Now, if you're reading well,you already have an advantage.
Yes, because, remember,everybody else is trying to
first understand the languagebefore they understand the

(01:40:19):
subject.
Yeah, you are going straight tothe subject.
So if it is science, you'rereading science in english yeah,
you're not trying to convertfast the thinking into english.
Then you read the science yousee, and that's one of the
challenges I think we're toldpeople like in tanzania had that
challenge for a long timebecause everything was in
swahili.

Speaker 3 (01:40:36):
They still, when they now start going into higher,
they still do, they still do.
They're doing well, they aredoing.

Speaker 2 (01:40:41):
Yes, tanzania is going to beat us if we're not
careful GDP.
No, this is what I think, thatyou mentioned Tanzania, tanzania
.
When they will rise up?
It's like a community rising up.
Yes, as opposed to us.
You know us, we're justdifferent tribes.
That's the thing.
See for them.
They have this one big hastheir own small ocean and
swimming pool.

Speaker 1 (01:41:00):
So here this other one, if you just raise the tide
for the ocean all the boats, allthe boats rise yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:41:07):
Just by swimming pool that I'll raise.
Just for me, this is achallenge that we have.
Anyway, that's beside the point.
It's very, very important,because now we are Africans.

Speaker 1 (01:41:16):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:41:17):
And we have to understand that.

Speaker 1 (01:41:18):
I mean, I'm amazed.

Speaker 2 (01:41:18):
It's off topic, but last year Tanzania had 22% food
production.
Basically they produced surplusof their requirements.
We could not feed ourselves.
They imported 60%, I think ofour food.

Speaker 3 (01:41:34):
That tells you something A nation that cannot
feed itself?

Speaker 2 (01:41:36):
how are you going to grow?
How are you going to develop?

Speaker 1 (01:41:37):
What are you?

Speaker 2 (01:41:38):
talking about New age stuff and you're dying of
hunger.

Speaker 3 (01:41:43):
This is the problem.
I think also same with Ethiopiaor something.

Speaker 2 (01:41:44):
Yes, yeah, yes, those guys.
Anyway, that's too big a topicright now, but ideally, having
learned to then read, now readanything.
Now, if you find it's a sciencebook, I read the science book.
I find it's a math, I here andthere.
And then the other thing isthat I was involved in all the
extracurricular activities, allof them.

Speaker 3 (01:42:03):
If it is football, I'll be there.

Speaker 2 (01:42:04):
If it is running, I'll be there.
So the mind would also find aplace to break from this
monotony of reading, reading,reading, reading and just go and
do and excel there as well.
So the advice would be forpeople who are in especially
primary school if you can findthe time up on your skills for
reading yeah, especiallylanguage just build up, read as
much as you can.

(01:42:24):
You will find you're readingacross all subjects yes you'll
find that you're appreciatingdifferent concepts and you're
starting to ask yourselfquestions about what did they
mean when they say you know,this is a millipede, this is a
centipede.
You try, and question things inyour mind that way you create a
creative, experiential thoughtprocess.

Speaker 3 (01:42:44):
Always querying things.

Speaker 2 (01:42:45):
But you're always just taking things as they are
Because you see the teachinglevel is for down, imparting,
taking, things as they are.
And that's one of the worrieswe usually have about education,
especially in Kenya.
At least now CBC might changethat, Because we all thought
education is a vessel to befilled.
You open your brain when you goin the morning, the teacher

(01:43:06):
puts things.
You close in the evening, yougo home Until the exam comes.
It is actually a fire to beignited.
The teacher's responsibility isto light that flame.
They just need to figure outhow to light it.
That's it.

Speaker 3 (01:43:20):
That's a very important point you have put
across, can you?

Speaker 2 (01:43:24):
please repeat it Once to light it.
That's it.
That's a very important pointyou have put across.
Can you please repeat it Onceyou light it?
It's not the education, it'snot a vessel to be filled.
It is a fire to be ignitedBecause you want to be
everywhere to fill all the headsevery time.
But if you light the fire once,this fellow is going to keep
the fire burning by himself.

Speaker 3 (01:43:39):
And they can spread it.

Speaker 2 (01:43:44):
In the same way we say you can't prepare the world
for your child.
You can only prepare your childfor the world.
So you can't go building roadswhere your child will pass, but
you can create in them theability to maneuver across any
road Because that's an easiertask.
So the same way with educationOnce you realize that all you
need is to be shown thedirection, this is the way it's
going Beyond there, having seenthis, is the way you can do what

(01:44:07):
you want to do, based on theability you've been infused in.
But if you're waiting to betold and for a long time it was
always the teacher has saidnobody would query back and ask
things.
So it kind of limited ourabilities.
When you look at the way peoplelike Japanese and all do their
stuff, it's always querying,checking, finding out Somebody
does something different.
They're like whoa, this isamazing here, if you did

(01:44:29):
something different, you getwhipped into line, you get
punished.

Speaker 3 (01:44:32):
So you realize okay, this thing can't work.

Speaker 2 (01:44:38):
The other thing my dad did was to allow me to be
good in the things that I wasgood in and not to struggle too
much with the things that Iwasn't good in.
Now, what does this mean?
We had eight subjects, I thinkthere were eight.

Speaker 3 (01:44:47):
There were eight actually, not even seven.

Speaker 2 (01:44:49):
It's only that during the examination the religion
was put with history andgeography.
Yes, they combined them inthere.
Out of those seven, he realizedI was good in the sciences and
the arts.
What was I poor in?
I think those seven.
He realized I was good in thesciences and the arts.
What was I playing?
I think I was playing twothings I had to remember, I
think it was home science.
I came to better in homescience later in adult life even

(01:45:11):
actually was part of that.
Yes, yes yes, so that timebecause it wasn't a survival
desire.
I didn't want to know how tocook things, so they tell us
bake this big.
I bring funny things and Ialways fail that class Go and
knit booties and I don't knowwhat, tacking stitch and
backstitch they were juststruggles for me.

Speaker 3 (01:45:29):
Later in life I realized even now I repair my
daughter's clothes.

Speaker 2 (01:45:34):
They bring and say, hey, daddy knows how to sew not
the mom.

Speaker 3 (01:45:37):
Daddy because now I realized this was a life skill
because now I literally love it.

Speaker 2 (01:45:39):
This was a life skill man.
I need to improve on this thingwhen I realized, when I was now
a bachelor, I can't keeptearing things and buying others
.

Speaker 3 (01:45:45):
I'm going to repair.
It doesn't make sense.

Speaker 2 (01:45:46):
So I bought knitting wool and all that, so I would
repair.
I repair my stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:45:49):
Using your hands or the machine.
I don't have a machine with myhands.

Speaker 4 (01:46:03):
I remembered my science thing is not for my son.

Speaker 2 (01:46:04):
So he said look, instead of us me beating you to
go and improve on science, Iwant to celebrate you to improve
on your maths and your English,where I was already on 80s.
Yes, continue doing that yeahthis other one man, it'll.
The chips will fall where theyfall yeah, whatever happens,
happens, yeah.
So I just kept, and that's oneof the challenges that parents
have if you have a child who'spoor in some areas.
We want to make them focus inthose poor areas to improve them
.
But it is always at the expenseof the things that they are good

(01:46:26):
at.
Now they start reducing theirexposure and their experience in
maths.

Speaker 3 (01:46:31):
English.

Speaker 2 (01:46:31):
Swahili because they are struggling to pull up
history, geography and thingswhich they are weak in.
And at the end of the day, whathappens?
They become average, becausethe 80 drops to 65, 70.
The 40, fine moves up to 55, 60, but at the expense of the 80.
Now they are a 60 average child.
They don't stand out foranything, they just drift
through life.
If you let this fellow continuewith his maths at 80, 85, 90,

(01:46:55):
one day somebody will tell himyou don't need these other
things, man, these maths willtake you where you need to go
Because you're always equippedwith the things that we require
to survive in life?
Yes, so that's what helped me Ifyou can just master the things
you're good at, if you canidentify them early in life.
You know people see what you'redoing or whatever, even in
primary school, and you're likeokay, I can do this.
Now start equipping yourselfthat is your key.

(01:47:19):
We all are told, we are allgiven locks and we figure out
which key is mine, the one Iwant to open it.
So if you figure out that thesciences are yours, focus on
that.
Yeah, people will complain yourKiswahili is poor.
It is man.
I can't be everything.
There are a few who aregeniuses they are in everything,
but that's why there are a few.
It's not everyone, the rest ofus.

(01:47:40):
What we are good at, let'sscale it, let's get better at it
.
Let's not try and be makingnuclear submarines when we are
here fighting hunger.
Let's figure out irrigationfirst.
We can try and get the nuclearstuff going.
The guys in the US have figuredout the food and the nuclear as
well.

Speaker 3 (01:47:56):
Good for them.

Speaker 2 (01:48:04):
That's the challenge we have when we're in primary
school, being beaten to bebetter in some subjects which
you're struggling with and youstart losing out on the subjects
that you're good at.
So that would be my partingshot for primary school.
Just expose yourself to as manyof the subjects as possible.
Pick the ones that are good atand try and focus on that, but
don't let go of your readingskills.
Reading is very importantbecause it improves on
compression, understanding andarticulating All the subjects

(01:48:27):
which you're going to need somuch when you're in upper
primary I mean high school andthe other levels, because if you
can understand something, youcan figure out things.
If you can't understand, you'realready at such a disadvantage
with everyone else.
So that's the big plus I wouldgive for primary school.
No, I mean, it makes a lot ofsense.
Yeah, and now you do your KCEPand then yes, so to come back to

(01:48:50):
, your question.
I expected to pass because I wasin the top five of the school
from like class five.

Speaker 1 (01:48:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:48:57):
I think I was index five Okay, so I knew for sure I
have to get into a nationalschool I mean I never had any
doubts about the guy can buy mea slot and he was never going to
yeah, my brothers forinformation yeah, I think
there's only one other who wentto a national school into my
forces, everybody else.
they were given to the schoolswhere they fell, as great, even
if he was an mp, yeah, and theywere not bad schools.

(01:49:20):
I won't say you know saintpeter, peter's, mumiya's,
kamsinga.
Those days Kamsinga was still abit struggling.
Now it's doing very well, itwasn't that.
Oh, now that he's going tobring you into Nairobi school or
whatever, no, no, no.
This is the level that you'vereached, right.
This is what you deserve, andhe puts you into school?
Yeah, go figure it out in there.
So my advantage was I saw howthey were treated Because they

(01:49:41):
were older than me, were you thelast born by any chance.
That time no, we were many, soI was six.
That time.

Speaker 3 (01:49:49):
I like how you put it , but at that time I was the
last one.

Speaker 2 (01:49:52):
So when I figured out , okay, I was last until class
four, two others came.
When I figured out that it isout of my output that I will
take myself where I want to goand now start concentrating on
yeah, they're getting the rightgrade, so I asked okay, what do
I need for Alliance?
Stolen setting.
I said this one is going toaffect my lifestyle because I
have to cut football and I couldsacrifice some things.

(01:50:13):
I've stopped playing footballafter, so I said hey, it's good
but I can't.
So, I said what else can I aimfor Nairobi school?
I said Lenana.
Because, I started playingrugby in primary school.
I was like it's a school thatyou know Lenana is good.

Speaker 4 (01:50:27):
Yeah, it's good Before Nairobi school became
very those days.

Speaker 2 (01:50:30):
Yeah, there was a competition around Nairobi
school and Lenana.
Upper Hill, I think Vihiga.
I saw the other day winning thenational rugby.
I'm like well, times havechanged.
The sport wasn't even played inWestern.
Let me ask you this before youget away from this you didn't
play rugby in primary school?

(01:50:52):
Primary school, I played a bit.

Speaker 1 (01:50:54):
Yeah, I think in class seven.

Speaker 2 (01:50:55):
Maybe I can ask, maybe in a different way.

Speaker 1 (01:50:58):
What do you think?

Speaker 2 (01:50:59):
I never played sport in my life.
The closest I came to sport wasbasketball, and I have my
reasons.

Speaker 3 (01:51:08):
Yeah, I would imagine I had my reason.

Speaker 2 (01:51:12):
So how much do you think sport contributed to you
focusing, to you becoming thatbrilliant or even also Holistic?
Okay, where I think theimportance is, there's two parts
.
One is just the fitnessbecoming that brilliant or even
also holistic when I think theimportance is there's two parts
One is just the fitness beingactive.
We want kids to be active andfor us the struggle was a flip

(01:51:35):
of what is happening now?
We spend too much time in thefield and would have pulled into
the houses.
Now we are chasing the kids outof the houses because they're
stuck on gadgets and devices andthey don't see the need for
sports and outdoor.
So for us, for me, the firstthing was just to be active and
fit, and I was, like you know,those days there weren't too
many lifestyle issues you knowdiseases and all, so you could

(01:51:55):
still enjoy life just in thehouse.
But there was no life in thehouse, nobody was in the house.

Speaker 3 (01:52:00):
Everybody was outside , so I wanted to be out there
Play from morning till evening.
You don't even have lunch.
Even TV was not a big thing.

Speaker 2 (01:52:05):
No, it wasn't, Because it used to be like six
hours Opens at six and closes, Ithink, at midnight or something
like that.
So we were okay with that.

Speaker 1 (01:52:17):
Don't even have to sit and watch TV For information
.
We never had a TV.

Speaker 2 (01:52:22):
Even if he could afford to buy a TV, he never
bought a TV.
The TV he bought was when Ifinished high school.
The first time we owned a TV andit never changed my life.
It wasn't a big deal for mebecause there were so many other
things we were doing.
We had to develop skillscommunication skills, networking
, talking with people.
Now we are struggling withthose skills because we are too
much in gadgets.
We are here with you and I textyou and say how are you doing?

(01:52:43):
I can't speak to you.
I can't walk up to you and sayI mean, people decide let's go
out from the restaurant for ameal and everybody's on their
devices.
The parents have decided todaywe just want to connect with the
kids.
The kids are all on devices.
They are in the restaurantwaiting for a meal.
So it's very sad.
Anyway, sports is important inthat first aspect for activity.
Secondly, it's just to buildthat bonding aspect and the

(01:53:04):
teamwork.
Because, there are some sports.
Much as I could dribble infootball, there was no way I was
going to dribble 11 people.
True, true, I dribbled threefour.

Speaker 3 (01:53:11):
Then I got tackled.

Speaker 2 (01:53:12):
So you learn to work with people, depend on other
people as well, and just how doyou get people to do things that
they probably don't want to do?

Speaker 3 (01:53:20):
The influence part of things.

Speaker 2 (01:53:21):
Yes, Nobody really wanted to be like a goalie.

Speaker 3 (01:53:24):
But then you'd sell the narrative.

Speaker 2 (01:53:25):
Ah, you know, if you're the goalie, you can see
what's going on.

Speaker 3 (01:53:27):
In fact, you just you chill, you just watch the game,
even become the coach.
You can tell as well, yes, butthen you know this guy is going
to get all the hot, so weconvince him about the way it
will be.
In fact, we will keep the guys,the pros of everything.

Speaker 2 (01:53:41):
Yes, we will keep the ball up there.
They won't come this way whenyou know you're playing a
victory Until, Until those guysturn the tables and they start
attacking, Then he's gettingshots left right.
By then he's already in thegroove.
He's not going to come out.
He'll be like no, I committed tomy to then at the end of the
match it's like, eh, I wouldnever have on my own, would
never have picked to be agoalkeeper, but you guys

(01:54:03):
convinced me.
So that's another aspect ofsports, just having that ability
to pull people together towardsa common cause even if that
common cause has no monetaryvalue.
How about just do something forfun?
Yeah, it's a very good aspectto have mentally, have mentally
there's something you could justdo.
There's no benefit from it Ifyou can have that kind of a
mentality.

(01:54:23):
Not that everything is aboutmoney and revenues and getting
something back.
How about just give of yourself?
Sports helps in that.
People get injured fighting.
We have guys who've run forthis country.
They played football.
People die doing the sport.
I didn't want to go to die, butyes, To that level.
And yet there are others whowould not lift a finger.

(01:54:46):
They'd rather sit and figureout routes to siphon money.
And those are the ones wecelebrate and say they are our
heroes.

Speaker 3 (01:54:52):
The guys who did the good stuff, the big things.

Speaker 2 (01:54:55):
They are just wasted somewhere and we wait for them
to die.
Then we celebrate them, putthem in big books and put them
on the newspaper, send money tothe widows.
I mean it's, it's sad, butanyway, to answer your question,
yeah, that was what sports didfor me.
Yeah, and then I realized thatI built a bit of a fame around
it, so by the time even I wasapplying to high school.
When you say, I do this, I playthis, I do what they're like,
yeah, we want this guy when Iwas being admitted to school and

(01:55:18):
they they look at the thingsyou've shown as your interest.
Certain people houses,housemasters will come and say
no, we want that one.

Speaker 3 (01:55:24):
This guy seems like he's good in this.
Let's bring him to our house,so there was some competitive
advantage to argue.

Speaker 2 (01:55:30):
Yes, it gave me a bit of that competitive advantage.
So that's what I would say washelpful for me in terms of yeah.
How was your first day atLenana, lenana you meet all
these people from all over thecountry For information, the guy
who so I was off.
My dad didn't have time to takeme to school.
That day unfortunately, I thinkit was out of the country, so I

(01:55:51):
was taken by my mom.

Speaker 1 (01:55:51):
It was still okay.

Speaker 2 (01:55:53):
And everybody's pleasant and happy.
And you can see, you knowthere's joy and things are
looking.

Speaker 4 (01:55:57):
It's Yalana bro.

Speaker 2 (01:55:58):
Very good, the very good the hall is clean and you
finish, and then you get yourtrunk out.
Then they open the trunk andthey find all these funny you
know illegal things, you knowbiscuits, I don't know, these
ones can't go.
They're telling my mom no, no,no, I don't need this.
They remove all the thingswhich are like junk and all.
Then I say how much money.
He says.
I think she's giving me likemaybe for the time 100 shillings

(01:56:21):
, Like wow, they don't even giveit to me, they give to the
housemaster 100.
And then they call the houseprefect to come and help me to
the house.
And who was the house prefect?
I was lucky that you know.
I got inducted into people whoI had ambitions from a long time
ago.
A guy called Hasan Omar Hasanwho was vying for the Mombasa

(01:56:43):
governor.
Yes, yes that was my house, myhouse prefector.
The one who came to pick my box, it was like hey, hey, hey, so
we started talking.
You know our things, whatever.
In the 10 minutes that walkedfrom the hall to the house.
He had given me these thingsand don't worry, we'll be

(01:57:04):
together very smooth, very goodguy.
Then I get to the house andthen people are not around.
Of course they're in class andthen I think at four o'clock
everybody just descends to thehouse.
At the first day, that was thelast time I saw all my
belongings in the trunk.
That was the first time I sawthem.
It was that bad.
It was bad, it was crazy thecharts, the new clothes,
everything comes.
These are new things.
Then they don't even ask you toopen.

(01:57:24):
A guy stepped in the middle oftheir truck.

Speaker 3 (01:57:26):
It's a metallic truck .

Speaker 2 (01:57:27):
I don't know if they call it.
They used to call it that way.
They used to say butterfly.

Speaker 1 (01:57:31):
Yes, they made it open itself.
Yes, they don't use a key, theyjust pick the things.

Speaker 2 (01:57:37):
We are equal.
Everybody's the same level.
There's no one who has anythingnew and all they're like hey, I
don't have a shirt, I'll getthrows for you some old shirt.
Yes, be pretty good.

Speaker 4 (01:57:45):
So you can't walk naked.

Speaker 2 (01:57:47):
No, so I learned right from the beginning.
Hey, this life is how youmaneuver, how you survive.

Speaker 1 (01:57:52):
And this is the real world.
Now, it's the real world youhave?

Speaker 2 (01:57:58):
I don't think that's how, even out here everyone is
operating.
That's how it is so you have tojust take care of your things.
This thing of crying now youknow you want to start calling
people from home.
We didn't even have cell phones.

Speaker 3 (01:58:08):
There was no call box .

Speaker 2 (01:58:10):
You can write a letter, yes, but you should take
a week and a half to get towhere it's going.
So who are you going to tell?

Speaker 4 (01:58:14):
And how many times will you do this?

Speaker 3 (01:58:16):
Because if you, the process is the same.

Speaker 2 (01:58:19):
Yes, so you, just you find your level.
Basically, you find your leveland realize, okay, I have people
here, these are colleagues ofmine from once.
We can survive together, startmaking friendships day one,
because you have to survive.
There's a girl giving an alarmwhen the fourth formers are
coming.
He sees them, whistles or givessome monkeys do quickly, and we

(01:58:39):
know what needs to happen.
Guys, monkeys do quickly and weknow what needs to happen.
Guys, those for hiding willhide under the beds.
The other guys, you know, youlearn tactics.
You start again remembering howto pull people together,
teamwork for a worthy cause.
We are now together defending.
So high school was very roughin getting in and because I also
had come from a bit of asheltered background, because
life had been a privilege.

(01:59:00):
Yeah, life had been a bit okaythen I realized that I'm not
going to start writing to thisfellow who used to read my notes
telling him the way.

Speaker 3 (01:59:06):
School is bad.
There's no way I was going tostart telling him.

Speaker 2 (01:59:08):
That's why I said, yeah, I'll survive through this
thing.
So two, three weeks, one month,I think two months.
By the time the second monthwas done, I was okay.
I was like, yeah, so that's the, the monolization that you got,
or well, that's just a tip ofit.

Speaker 3 (01:59:20):
It was worse there were many other things.

Speaker 1 (01:59:22):
What was the worst?

Speaker 2 (01:59:23):
There were Wow, there were many.
Let me try and see which onewas the worst of them.
That one was bad because theystripped me of everything that I
had right at the beginning.

Speaker 4 (01:59:35):
So now I was starting from zero.

Speaker 2 (01:59:38):
But then the money disappeared.

Speaker 3 (01:59:41):
The hand in Bob, yes, the hand in Bob disappeared.

Speaker 2 (01:59:42):
The hundred bob, yes, the hundred bob disappeared so
I never had any way of surviving.
And people are, you know.
They have to buy bread tosupplement food and everything.
I have nothing.
I tried to speak English there.
People started looking at melike this one.

Speaker 3 (01:59:56):
What kind of English is this?
Because you're trying to speakgood English.

Speaker 2 (02:00:00):
Everybody else is speaking local colloquial,
broken English, yeah.
So I'm wondering, I mean mycolleagues, because you see
national school people are fromall over the place.

Speaker 3 (02:00:09):
Yes, it's true.

Speaker 2 (02:00:11):
So now you start being described that guy who
pretends to speak fluent Englishand for a guy sometimes
speaking English it looksforeign.

Speaker 3 (02:00:17):
It becomes a liability.

Speaker 2 (02:00:20):
So I went back into my Swahili, which was still fine
.
But then I had to call.
You know you're given peoplehave come from training for
rugby.
You're given the shoe.
The boot is removed.
Why are you just thinking?
So I call your mom.
Explain to her why you'restarving.
In school A guy wakes you up at2 am.
They've come from studying.
Those are for four months.

Speaker 1 (02:00:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:00:43):
Tells you, gives you a bag, paper bag.

Speaker 3 (02:00:44):
Tells you one pack for me, Four darknesses come out
there and take to the otherhouse on the other side yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:00:47):
The house is.
The school is 287 acres.
Yeah, one house is on that end,the other house is is about 15
minutes walk.
Ah, at 2 am, in your vest andslippers you don't even know
which house.
Then you get to the other house, you realize whoa, these are
set up because those guys havealso just come to the house.
After reading.
So you meet with the house,prefect, whoever it is.

(02:01:10):
He says, ah, in fact I was told.
Yeah, I'm getting some help.
We need to flood this room.
Now you start washing the roomsAt 2 am 3 am.
It was terrible, because thoseare not things that I had
expected of an astro school.
You thought these areintellectuals.
Yeah, slimmed a cream from thecountry.

Speaker 3 (02:01:27):
What madness is this so?

Speaker 2 (02:01:29):
it's almost 30 years ago, so there were many terrible
experiences, but I rememberthose because they were
highlighted right from there.
The good thing about our mentalminds they grasp onto the good
things tighter than the badthings.
Yeah, especially the bad thingsare not too traumatic they
release them because the minddoesn't have time to keep
holding on to the negatives,unless you decide yourself you
want to record the negativethings and keep reading them

(02:01:50):
over and over and entrenchingthem in your mind.
Otherwise the human mind has away of just filtering out the
negatives and leaving you withthe pleasant memories so I I had
by the end of fast first timefast form, I had made friends
across, I think, what wentaround.
I was happy that my dad didn'tdrop me because to doff caused a
fiasco because all they areseeing the cow GKs and all.

(02:02:11):
It would have been an issue nowthat they came to realize much
later because of the name.
And then I think my this guy,hassan, went and told guys in
his car we have some seriousguys in my house.

Speaker 3 (02:02:24):
Suddenly people are coming.

Speaker 2 (02:02:27):
They are bringing new stuff they want to carry favor,
so I started getting a fewprivileges.
Were there guys from yourvillage?
Yes, there were a few, who Irealized later that my dad had
actually helped to join theschool that was helpful because
they were like you know, yourdad was the only did this.
The other one tells you oh, mydad works with your dad, I don't
know what.
So there was a good.
Now I was imagining in my headif he was an evil guy, yeah, I

(02:02:49):
would really have suffered.
Your dad is one who frustratesmy dad at work.
You know, it would have beenquite crazy, but they were like
ah, you know, helpful guy, hehelps things, so it calmed me
bringing you.
Ah, he has bread, they get mebread.
The other guys start asking mehey, kwani, what have you done
to these guys?

Speaker 3 (02:03:05):
I'm like I have not done anything.

Speaker 2 (02:03:06):
I don't have anything .
They stripped me of everything,but they're like okay, at least
they understood.
The only downside which was arisk was I got so sucked up into
that life that I found myselfnow with the guys of drugs.
You know, guys, that they havewheat with.
There was a supply of all sortsof things.
Now the trick was if they canget me into that you're good
yeah because I have the means tokeep getting them these things

(02:03:30):
and did you use drugs suddenly.
I lived that life for at leastone year, the first form.
I was in that life for you are acustomer across the boundaries
got to drink some illicit brewsand all these things, the whole
of first term, first form,actually, yeah, it was a bit
crazy and at that time, I thinkalso my dad was so busy so he

(02:03:50):
didn't really notice what wasgoing on?
My mom was at that time hadmoved back to upcountry.
She was now heading towardsretiring, so she also didn't
know.
But I was in boarding schooland I'm thinking these are what
big people do.

Speaker 4 (02:04:04):
Teenager.
Now you're trying to find myspace in the world.

Speaker 1 (02:04:09):
Yes, that was a transition.

Speaker 2 (02:04:12):
So you go there.
Is your interest in sciencestill the same?
Yes, at that time as I began,of course I knew the languages.
I would never have a challengeor a worry there.
But I also picked up mostlybiology I was interested in.
I actually wanted to become adoctor.
I felt that I had the heart togive to help to do all these

(02:04:33):
things.
I thought I had some good brainon me as well.

Speaker 4 (02:04:39):
Why do?

Speaker 3 (02:04:40):
I feel like this one will end in a funny way.

Speaker 2 (02:04:42):
I want to be a doctor In the reality.
So, anyway, um, what?
What changed everything?
Was that slip up in form one,because, as you know, in high
school, form one is mostlydefinitions and things.
For all the like 15 subjects,yes, yes.
And then for us, in form two,you cut them down to like 10.
I think you dropped five, yeah,and then from three, now you
specialize in I think seven orsomething, I can't remember.

(02:05:04):
Yeah, so in form one,definitions and all that was all
we used to do.
And I realized these ones Ican't.
I don't even need to read much.

Speaker 3 (02:05:11):
I know these things, man.

Speaker 2 (02:05:12):
See, I was in the top percentile I of admission.
I was in that top a creamacross the country, or just in
now in the school.

Speaker 3 (02:05:23):
No, no, so I knew yeah, there's no worry here, man
I can do my thing, so I'll cutup.
I know what I'm doing that life, never, never the time I get
into second form now.

Speaker 2 (02:05:37):
I'm so deeply ingrained in these mad, crazy
things that guys are doing youknow, breaking breaking bounds
every other day, doing stuffthat by the time I'm trying to
recover now to start gettinginto proper school work.
I was in like a form two,second term.
I don't have my notes in thewhole of form one.
So I don't have anything I'mbuilding on Now.
They are moving on to the nextstep, so there's no time to give
you a break to catch up.

Speaker 3 (02:05:58):
No, because things are moving.

Speaker 2 (02:06:00):
Now I had to start trying to put in double.
By the time I was realizing howfar I was.
It was actually my mom whopointed out and she said your
dad has been seeing the gradesyou joined.
You are number 25 out of 225.
Second term you are number 40.
Third term you are number 90.

Speaker 3 (02:06:16):
Okay that's from one as ended From two, first term.

Speaker 2 (02:06:19):
I already had breached 200.
I was number 200.

Speaker 4 (02:06:23):
So 90 is not the worst case scenario here.

Speaker 2 (02:06:25):
No, Not 90.
No, From 2 second term I was at210 out of 235.
That's 235 across the wholestream.
I was 210.
What you know, what this guyhas said he has his farm and
things and cattle.

Speaker 3 (02:06:42):
There's a lot of work for you.

Speaker 2 (02:06:44):
I can't understand why we are spending all this
money.

Speaker 4 (02:06:45):
And those days it was .

Speaker 2 (02:06:47):
I think fees was like 25,000 a term it wasn't small
money, that's a lot of money.

Speaker 3 (02:06:52):
Yeah, early 90s it wasn't small money.

Speaker 2 (02:06:54):
Instead of wasting this money, he could buy two
cows with that money and you goand take care of the cows.

Speaker 1 (02:06:59):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (02:07:00):
And things will be okay.
Why should we take another cowto school?

Speaker 4 (02:07:03):
There we go.

Speaker 2 (02:07:06):
Anyway.
So I realized she was serious,because she told me everyone
else has given up, they've saidit's not worth it.

Speaker 3 (02:07:12):
You've chosen this path.

Speaker 2 (02:07:14):
It's just me who is here now.
It's between you and I, and youknow when you're doing.

Speaker 3 (02:07:17):
The cabinet has sat down.

Speaker 2 (02:07:18):
Yes, they have decided this is unsustainable.
She was really a diplomaticperson.
Yeah, she was.

Speaker 4 (02:07:25):
She was her teacher, so she was very good, but she
told me, every time kids do well, they are kids of the father.

Speaker 2 (02:07:33):
Every time kids fail in life, they are kids of the
mother, especially if it is ahouse that has both parents.
The father takes credit for thegood stuff is a house that has
both parents.
The father takes credit for thegood stuff, the mother is
dumped on the bad stuff.
The one who has failed is thechild of the mother.
Now we are stuck, you and IJust the two of us.
These are the fellows.
Much as they were in poorerschools.

(02:07:54):
They've done well in life andthey have moved on.
Now it is just you and me andyou've been told, and I cannot
be taking your blames no, thatit is, you are mine, so it's
true you're my child, but wecan't be being referenced like
this.
So out of my love for her,because she stood out for me, I
changed and said no, I have toimprove, Didn't need to change.

Speaker 1 (02:08:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:08:14):
I have to improve.
I have to do something about myschool schoolwork.
So now, instead of doing extra,so now, instead doing extra, I
would go writing my notes arefresh, getting books from people
.
That whole of second time, yeah, two, I try and now get all my
stuff in order.
I was still getting my ease in.
You know biology and things.

Speaker 3 (02:08:33):
I was like man, but things were not adding up this
team of mine yeah, because now Idon't have the notes.

Speaker 2 (02:08:36):
I have gaps, so and you could not borrow this from
your colleagues.
No, because sometimes you can'tsee the writing, the writing
for high school kids.
Man, you can't read the otherguy's writing.
So, I have to look for my ownway so I get the books I try and
start reading, go to thelibrary, spend time.
Now I have to invest thatdiscipline that I had released.
I had to now bring it back.

(02:08:56):
Get it back and take the pain,the immediate pain for the
future benefit.
So I struggled through that.
By the time I got into secondterm I mean second form, end of
second term I think I had gottento midpoint.

Speaker 4 (02:09:09):
So I was now back to about 180.

Speaker 2 (02:09:12):
So I've gotten about 30 people that I've beaten.

Speaker 4 (02:09:14):
That's good.
I'm improving now.

Speaker 2 (02:09:16):
I'm not bottom from 30.
Those ones used to always becalled to the principal every
beginning of the term.
If you're anyone from 200 todown there, you just go and
receive free cans just becauseyou're in that section.

Speaker 4 (02:09:28):
Yeah, yeah, Just for fun.

Speaker 2 (02:09:32):
Yeah, not fun.
You've qualified, You'vequalified for the can, so you go
for it.

Speaker 3 (02:09:36):
Not about the top 10 or something

Speaker 2 (02:09:37):
like that no those ones nobody used to talk about.
They would always be rewardedanyway.
So then I now started changingthe friends people I was hanging
out with, because high school,the biggest danger, even in
boarding school, it's justpeople the crowd, you keep.
If you keep the wrong guys, bythe time you realize it, you
have the wrong results.

Speaker 3 (02:09:53):
So far.

Speaker 2 (02:09:53):
Yeah, they usually say you know, two cabbages don't
make a piece of meat.
So that's a new information.
You're killing each othersaying I'm better than this guy.

Speaker 1 (02:10:01):
But he's also a cabbage.

Speaker 2 (02:10:03):
Do you think that's also where we are as African
countries?

Speaker 3 (02:10:06):
We always compare ourselves with the cabbages.

Speaker 2 (02:10:09):
They usually say we are giants among dwarfs, you're
the tallest dwarf.
They say hey, kenya is doingwell, but who are we measuring
against?
We're measuring against Ugandaand that's not to talk badly
Against.

Speaker 3 (02:10:21):
Tanzania against Uganda.

Speaker 2 (02:10:23):
No, no, no Of course Uganda is not doing well.

Speaker 3 (02:10:25):
It's the truth.

Speaker 4 (02:10:26):
Let's be honest.
Let's be honest, yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:10:28):
So if we were to come out and say, look, this is not
our peer, we released or lostour peers with the Singaporeans
of this world, the Koreas ofthis world, they took our
blueprint and they went and didamazing things.
Which means the intellectual,we have it.
It's the execution that is theproblem.
We have all the brilliant ideas, but we just can't find a way
out.
Even for the case of Uganda, tobring context is that it's only

(02:10:52):
that they have enough food.
They're self-sufficient, they'renot starving, not that they
don't have smart people, but thesystem put in place.
It's really, really hard evento implement that brilliant mind
in Uganda.
I mean the freedom is not there.
I mean we talk about oursituation, the way we are in a
bad place, but the truth is, man, I can stand out here and start

(02:11:12):
shouting mad things.
Nobody will arrest me For sure,as long as I'm not breaking the
law nobody will arrest me, wecan decide tomorrow we're going
to march to parliament, we justinform the central police guys
and we march there, we state ourviews and we go back home.
Uganda man, we might not leaveour house man, even a watchman
has a gun.

Speaker 1 (02:11:29):
And he's part of the security system.

Speaker 3 (02:11:31):
Yes, exactly.

Speaker 2 (02:11:33):
Your guess is as good as mine.
So yes having realized that,indeed, the guys I was hanging
around were pulling me down, soI had to now shift a bit.
Thankfully, the guys who hadinfluenced me were mostly the
performers in form one had leftwhen I got some respite, but a
few people who pulled me andsaid hey, man, you know, for the
pride that your dad has doneand all these things, man, this

(02:11:55):
is not right.
Yeah, you need to get back ontrack.
So I got back on track yeah, bythe time I'm getting into third
form, I think I had reformed tothe extent where now my dad was
like, yeah, let the guy doanother term, we'll see how
things are.

Speaker 3 (02:12:07):
Before we buy the cows.

Speaker 2 (02:12:08):
Yes, he even came and visited.
He had never visited me inschool.
He came to visit me in thirdterm.
Ever since I joined form one,he had never come, Because by
the time he wanted to come insecond term or third term.
I was doing so badly.
He didn't want to be associatedwith this and he can come in
the bottom of the class.

Speaker 4 (02:12:26):
What am?

Speaker 2 (02:12:26):
I coming to see here, but my mom came every time.

Speaker 3 (02:12:30):
As I tell you, those failures are the mothers.

Speaker 2 (02:12:32):
So, she came every time.
Look, as I told you, man, we'rejust, it's just.
Us Save the face.
She saved my life.
Truth be told On that aspectfor school face.
She saved my life.
Truth be told on that aspectfor school.
She saved my life because afterthat, is she still there?
No, she passed on last year,okay, but anyway.
So those things, life, no, mom,mom, they never cease to be

(02:12:52):
moms.
Yeah, to be honest till youcan't, even at 40, she'll
picture you.

Speaker 4 (02:12:57):
What are you doing?

Speaker 2 (02:12:58):
fathers.
You know, when we grow up wecan talk men to man, but mothers
will still be having that.
There's a respect level, yes,yes.
And then this is there's an oh,especially not to talk
negatively in gender wise, butespecially for boys.
Yeah, mothers are special, yes,yeah, I mean, if you really
want to crush a man, yeah, playwith their mother.

Speaker 1 (02:13:19):
Play with the mother, especially if they, you know
the mother is alive when they'renot there.
It's not too big a deal but.

Speaker 2 (02:13:24):
If they have grown up all along and the mother has
been there.
The father, he will even helpyou to beat up the father.
But the mother, so we wentthrough that he came and visited
, told me I have had good thingsall this time.
When I would go home on holidayhe would be very busy so we
would never get to talk.

Speaker 4 (02:13:43):
We never, wanted to associate at all, so I went back
to writing letters.

Speaker 2 (02:13:48):
So now I'm in high school so I write for full
scouts Communication yeah, forfull scouts, you know both sides
Narrating everything.
Then he answers with oneparagraph, just one paragraph.
Went to school to learn,supposed to do this, that the
other.
I think you're still far offfrom those ideals.
The day that you get back ontrack there, I know we can have

(02:14:10):
a good conversation.
So I can't ask for money, evenfor shopping.
I can't do that, so now I hadto go through my mom.
You know, now things are notgood, so she'll channel from
what my brothers are beingbought for.
She put some aside, yeah, yeah,don't tell me that.
Don't tell him that you gotanything just say you went the
way you are so it would be likethat till that time in that form

(02:14:32):
, and he came and we sat downand we had an adult conversation
what do you?
want.
Yeah, you know, life, this life, is yours.
Whatever you want to make of it, make us, we're yours.
Whatever you want to make of it, make as we are there to
support.
You want to be a farmer?
I'll support.
The only thing I can't supportis breaking the law.
So you can't be like a thug,you can't be a drug dealer
Things that are breaking the law, you can't.

(02:14:53):
But if you tell me you want tobe a tout, I will look for money
.
We buy a matatu.

Speaker 3 (02:14:58):
You want to be a things that are making sense
whatever your heart wants.
Don't have to struggle herewith this.

Speaker 2 (02:15:03):
This thing is not for everyone and at the back of his
mind he knows these guys arebrilliant guys playing around
then he gives me examples ofguys from the village he's doing
well he has a couple of.

Speaker 1 (02:15:20):
He's married, he's set up.
He'll be well.
He has a couple of he's married.

Speaker 3 (02:15:22):
He's set up.
He has three children.
Don't worry, he'll be well.
You can also do the same.

Speaker 2 (02:15:26):
You have good education.
You can be speaking English Forpeople there.
I looked at him and in thisconversation you didn't like
Burst into laughter.

Speaker 1 (02:15:34):
No, no, I couldn't laugh, it was very serious, by
the way.

Speaker 3 (02:15:37):
It was serious but I could see.
But right now you think aboutit like yeah, I laugh.

Speaker 2 (02:15:41):
This is a true conversation, but it was one of
those life-changingconversations and sometimes you
just need somebody to steer youback.
So two things to steer you back.
And another one who believes inyou Even when you don't believe
in yourself, because my mombelieved in me.
So are you saying that havingtwo parents actually brings the
balance proper balance insomeone's life?
Yeah, when you're growing up,truth be told people from the

(02:16:04):
full families they have anadvantage.
That's just the way of life.
They have an advantage becausethey're pulling off from two
sources.
So where you can have maybe asingle perspective, where it's
only a mother, she can only giveas much as a light can shine.
And the other guy, father, evenhim, his torch only goes in a

(02:16:27):
certain direction.
Yeah, that's the only thing hecan see.
Yeah, you see.
Yeah, when you have both of them, the mother is seeing wide beam
, the father is seeing narrowbeam, straight tunnel vision.
Yeah, when you combine the twoyou go much further.
Yeah, so if you have none, it'seven now harder.
Yeah, yeah, because now you'redepending on other people's
lights and sometimes these guys,where they are going, where

(02:16:47):
they're actually pointing theirtorch, is into darkness.
It's the wrong place, but thenthey're the only people you have
.
This is the only light you cansee.
So you move on with it untilthe day when you're in a place
where you can actually gauge andsay this is not the direction I
want to go.
So, yeah, I still profess thatit helps when both parents are
there, if there are such homesthey have an advantage.
That is not to say they will beperfect, and that is not to say

(02:17:10):
people who come from broken ornon-parent families will not do
well.
Sometimes they actually do muchbetter because they are forced
to embrace their Goliath earlier.
And there's just life.
There's something aboutembracing your Goliath.
Earlier in life, you setyourself on a trajectory, the
David trajectory.
You know where your smoothstones are, you know where your

(02:17:32):
sling is, you know how to swingit.
The rest of these fellows startrealizing where do I get these
stones?
late in life, because that'swhen they've been exposed to now
.
Okay, there you go, leave myhouse, go and make a life for
yourself when they're tallenough.
They're like man where do Istart?
You're starting when the otherfellow has been doing this for
like 30 years.
So you see, there's always thatadvantage.

(02:17:53):
However, there's also thebalance, where, while this guy
is the father is picking thefive stones for himself, he
shows the son or the daughteryeah, this is where you get the
stones.
You see, you'll still have anadvantage over the other guy who
had to go discover his ownstones and how to swing for
himself.
Half the time before he swingshe's hit himself twice or thrice
, because that thing you have tohave mastery.

(02:18:14):
If you don't swing it properly,you can actually commit suicide
.

Speaker 4 (02:18:17):
It's not like a gun, where you point and shoot.

Speaker 2 (02:18:18):
No, you swing like this.
It comes back straight at you.
Are you swinging or are youkilling yourself?
What happened you?

Speaker 4 (02:18:24):
know, but now you have a parent who is?

Speaker 2 (02:18:26):
swinging for you because they are embracing the
goalie earth on your behalf andshowing you Now you start
building the strength and themuscles early enough.
So I would always say I cannever advocate for, you know,
broken families.
That's the way to go.
I know new age nowadays, yes,we're saying anything goes, but
that's not the ideal.
The ideal is that if you canget the ideal situation, please

(02:18:47):
thrive in it.

Speaker 1 (02:18:48):
It's hard, but you should.

Speaker 2 (02:18:50):
Yes, you should, if you don't have it, don't kill
yourself because it's not ideal.
No, don't lie there on theground saying, ah, now you see,
because they have a father andan aunt, since, yeah, there are
a lot of people who've done sowell in life they never had.
They were orphans from a veryearly age.
They never even knew theirparents and they are thriving.
There are others who have beenbabied up to age 60 and they are

(02:19:11):
a mess, I mean you, I can namenames, that's not here where
they were given everything, yes,and they kept looking up,
looking up to this father and hekept providing, providing,
providing, providing Until heleft, until he left when he left
.
Then they're like oops.

Speaker 1 (02:19:24):
Where do I start?

Speaker 2 (02:19:25):
Yeah, at 60.
Now you're starting to fightabout inheritance At 60, you
never, ever, did anything foryourself.
So that's the challenge.
It's a difference, but if youget somebody who gives you the
balance, you're better off yeah.
So you, you, you did your kcsekenya certificate of secondary

(02:19:46):
education.
Yes, and you, you performedreally well.
It wasn't really well, I didvery well in my non-sciences.
So first, the doctor dream diedin the platform when I realized
for me to excel in to goonwards to doctor.
To be a doctor, I need to haveboth, I need to have both.
I need to have all threesciences.

Speaker 3 (02:20:04):
Yes, and perform really well.

Speaker 2 (02:20:05):
Yeah, physics, chemistry and biology.
I had already dropped physicsin form two.
Yeah, through advice from theguys who are perpetually high.

Speaker 3 (02:20:16):
The peer pressure.
So they told me no, no, no,Don't need that.

Speaker 2 (02:20:20):
By the time I was realizing it.
This is that form there was noway I could rescue mm-hmm so by
extension also the chemistryalso yeah, so I was left with
only biology.
Okay, this probably won't work.
I said anyway, we'll make good.
So past was called to uni, butI was called for education.

Speaker 3 (02:20:37):
I was called to.

Speaker 2 (02:20:38):
K you to do education .
I, coincidentally, one of mybrothers had been to KU for
education.
My dad had been a dean ofstudents KU, so it's like, yeah,
this is okay.
Oh, the amazing thing is thathe was shocked that I passed.
He was shocked beyond becausefrom third term third form.
He always knew.
Ah, this one will just you knowjust go through and yeah we

(02:20:59):
just finish school and see whatelse he can do.
Then, when the grades came out,he actually bought me a card and
he had never bought anybody acard in the family for doing an
exam was that my dad.

Speaker 3 (02:21:09):
What did he buy?
A success card I mean acongratulations card, yeah,
those big massive things, but Istill have it, by the way, some
nice things.
I look up to him like yeah veryspecial.

Speaker 2 (02:21:19):
Yeah, we did something.
Yeah, someone said yeah, no,yeah, no, because I told him oh,
you know, I had wanted to be adoctor.
I'm so disappointed.
Don't worry, you performed morethan I expected.

Speaker 4 (02:21:29):
You have no idea, you have no idea what I was
expecting.

Speaker 2 (02:21:33):
So we had a conversation.
He told me what hisexpectations had been.
So I was like, okay, ithappened.
My mom had my back, because ifthis was the case and it had
filtered through to me, I wouldhave done very poorly, because
I've been like if he has givenup, so what's the point?
What am I struggling about?
Let me leave it yeah my mom waslike no, you can be anything.
Yes, just keep striving.
Yes, so finish that.
And then I spent the whole ofthe following year.

(02:21:54):
I can't, it was an election.
Yeah so now I was in fullcampaign mode with my dad, so we
went through that campaignrunning for election.
Blah finished, he got in andthen now he said okay, usually
we used to wait one year beforeyou go to campus yeah so, after
finishing the one year and Iasked me, okay, so are we going
to, okay, what's your idea?
I said I've tried to change theprogram around to be a teacher,

(02:22:16):
blah, blah, blah.
He's like okay, what you wantto do, but what we wanted to do
computer science and everythingwas not available for my country
and we didn't have parallelthose days, so it's like, okay,
you'll just need to go to acollege and do what you can,
then we step up from there intoit.
Yeah, yeah so that's when youjoin the that's how that's how
it?
happened?
The diploma program?
Yes, the diploma program forinformation systems.
I was at the tbk school calledkenya, kenya school of monetary

(02:22:40):
studies, did that?
I remember the bomb blasthappened when I was up that way.
Ah, yeah, that's 90s, 97, 98,98, yes, did that finish that
diploma told me, okay, now wecan go.
Two of my bros by that timewere in the us it was like okay,
you can join your brothers,it's up to you what you want to
do, I'm like.

(02:23:01):
No, let me try and get some workexperience first and then we
can see what to do so he pluggedme into the census program.
So I joined Kenya Bureau ofStatistics and ran the census
program for 1999.
With that counting people, justunderstanding.
Okay, that's how demographicswork.
How many poor people, how manypeople own a TV set, a radio?

(02:23:22):
You know very bleak figures.

Speaker 3 (02:23:23):
Did they check a boat ?
No, that was ambitious.
I don't check boats by then.

Speaker 2 (02:23:30):
Radio and TV was as far as they went.
They didn't even check cellphones or anything.
Anyway, it was a good exerciseto open my mind to how
government works.

Speaker 3 (02:23:38):
Because, from.

Speaker 2 (02:23:39):
That is how all the planning happens all the funding
all the plans, everything, eventhe session or papers that you
think about If if they actuallyread the data and decide to
apply.
No data having data is onething.

Speaker 1 (02:23:53):
Yeah.
Converting that intoinformation and knowledge and
picking insights is a differentthing.

Speaker 2 (02:23:57):
A lot of those things used to just sit on shelves.
Yeah, a lot of those thingsused to just sit on shelves.
I mean, yeah, so we did thecensus.
So yeah, UNDP is the one thatfunded.
Okay, so who cares?

Speaker 1 (02:24:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:24:05):
I remember the census we did was it for that year?
When we were doing work inApril we were being paid January
salary.
We were doing in May, we werebeing paid February salary.
Because somebody clever decidesto take the UNDP money as a
lump sum Invest, it Puts it in abank account.
It happens even today, actually, yes.
So he pays.

Speaker 1 (02:24:26):
Three months later he's making money off our
salaries and it's a lot of money.

Speaker 2 (02:24:30):
And our money was not .
I think we paid 500 bob a dayor something.
But if you multiply that, ofcourse, by the number of people,
it's a lot of money.
So we're just making money, man.
I'm like man, what is this?
My dad is like don't worry.

Speaker 3 (02:24:43):
That's how life is.
You're getting in, don't worry.
Then one day I wake up, hetells me.

Speaker 2 (02:24:47):
By the way, I hear you know the Intercon, they are
starting off with setting up acyber cafe.
I know you've done.
It systems yes, the hotelSystems and all, and you know,
you could just walk there andjust ask.
You know, intercon was behindparliament is it not?

Speaker 4 (02:25:02):
still there or closed it's still there.

Speaker 2 (02:25:05):
The sign is in the building, but there's nothing
happening, because they used tofrequent there as MPs.
Yeah, like just go and check.
You know, I heard rumour I wassitting in a table.
There are some conversations,so I don't know anyone.
I can't tell you who to go andsee.
Yeah, maybe there's something.
I walked to the back.
The CB Kenya Bureau ofStatistics offices were at Nyai
House.

Speaker 1 (02:25:23):
You walk Nyai.

Speaker 2 (02:25:24):
House, the back gate.
You get to Intercon on the backside and I said, yeah, I'm here
, I've come for the IT job.
The guy watchman asked me whatIT job?
No, there's a job for cyber.
Even him he doesn't know whatI'm talking about.
So he tells me I just go IT.
I go to HR gear and see it.
I went, it's just.

Speaker 3 (02:25:41):
Oh yeah, you're one of the guys who you know the way
you get it to a space yeah,that maybe was not yours, but
opportunity and aligned chance.

Speaker 2 (02:25:48):
Yes, I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'm the one.
Yeah, oh, so it, you did yeahso tell me about cyber.
How do cybers work?
And there's this thing aroundjust learning stuff that is
outside of your zone try and ownTry and get one or two things
around.
Again you're an avid reader, yes.
And they say, for IQ you haveto be a specialist to know
everything about this one thingand to know something about

(02:26:12):
everything else.
That's something to change yourlife.
So I go there.
He asks me I'm like whatever Iknow must be more than what this
guy knows.

Speaker 4 (02:26:21):
So I told him two, three stories like yeah, this
guy knows.
So I told him two, threestories like yeah, that sounds
okay.

Speaker 2 (02:26:24):
So today is Thursday.
Okay, he called some guy there.
Take measurements for this guy.
Why don't you have a Pimauniform?
Like well, he hasn't even askedfor a CV, he hasn't asked for
anything Like yeah, okay, theyPima.
They said okay, so can you comeMonday 8 o'clock?
It's our?
Yeah, you come with whateveryou'll be, with your clothes, we
will give you uniform.

(02:26:44):
I showed up on Monday.
I was given a full uniformthere and I entered.

Speaker 4 (02:26:49):
And you're on payroll everything Systems
administrator.

Speaker 2 (02:26:52):
Hotel Intercontinental, cyber Cafe
Clark.
I'm the guy connecting and evenback in the day,
intercontinental was something.
Yes, it was continentalsomething.
Yes, it was massive.
It was mostly american actually.
I'll even explain why.
So I'm the guy now who isconnecting guests in rooms.

Speaker 4 (02:27:06):
The wi-fi is not working.
I'm the guy who is sorting themout, so you did.

Speaker 2 (02:27:09):
You start now learning on the job?

Speaker 4 (02:27:10):
yes, now the majority of the time I was there reading
you

Speaker 2 (02:27:13):
know, when now I'm alone in the cyber.
People have gone openinglogging into sites.
How do you set up?

Speaker 1 (02:27:18):
yeah, hey, on the free internet on the job land?

Speaker 2 (02:27:20):
yes, the free internet I On the job land.
Yes, there's free internet.
I'm the guy who's managing thecyber and I remember back in
that's 98, 2000?
That's 99, 2000.
Yes, there was no much of cellphones no no, no, there weren't.
There weren't.
If you're lucky, maybe you hadconnected using cable some weird
things which were just man and5kb.

(02:27:42):
Yes, I remember 15 minutes usedto be 200 dollars yeah, it was
very expensive, yeah yeah, onedollar.
So I was like man, this guydoesn't make a lot of money,
yeah, but anyway, the only othercafe I knew was hard rock,
which was at barclays plaza atthat time was a cyber of some
sort and then now, uh, I thinkit was kenya where Africa Online
had started some e-cybersaround, but there wasn't much

(02:28:05):
happening.
I mean, you remember this?
We don't have undersea cable atthat time.
So everything is going throughtelecoms, single-dition, long or
not.
I think it was like one.
Was it a GB?
Even it wasn't a GB.

Speaker 3 (02:28:15):
Because people used to receive like a KB.

Speaker 2 (02:28:18):
Yes, your phone has more capacity than what Kenya
had for like 30 years.
Your phone has maybe five timesthe capacity.

Speaker 4 (02:28:26):
That's things that you're consuming within.

Speaker 2 (02:28:28):
Seconds.

Speaker 3 (02:28:28):
Yes, it's madness, watch one video you have
consumed.

Speaker 2 (02:28:32):
It's gone the data for one county, so went through
that, joined, got into thesystem.
Now he started visiting whileI'm working.

Speaker 4 (02:28:41):
He'll come and just sit there.

Speaker 2 (02:28:42):
He's just telling me stories.
Today the speaker said thiswhatever I did, I'm like, eh,
okay, then you see it.
And then when somebody comes,eh, ceo, so and so, and when I
went in I never went with myname.
I never went to say, oh, I'm soand so, because I knew it would
bring some chaos.
So I just went undercover, Ijoined and used my second name.
People would come and they findthe guy there and they're
wondering what does that guykeep coming to do at the sidebar

(02:29:05):
?
No no, he's a guy from myvillage.
He just comes to say hi, tellsme how people are doing in the
village.

Speaker 4 (02:29:10):
I don't understand my dad, Because it could change my
fortunes.
Man People would be like why isthis guy working?

Speaker 2 (02:29:17):
Anything and I was scared about the impression.
We and I was scared about theimpression.
Yeah, yeah, we went throughthat, learned, picked things on
the job.

Speaker 1 (02:29:24):
I learned how.

Speaker 2 (02:29:25):
And you finished your diploma.
Then by then I had finished mydiploma.
I was now trying to get intouni, proper uni.
I was like okay.
So in that period, my dad islike okay, it's up to you If you
want to go to the US like your,or you can stay around.
You decide what you want to do.
I'm like man, I've startedtouching money, so I'm like let
me do this for, like anotheryear.

Speaker 3 (02:29:45):
Let's see how things are.
I'll let you know.

Speaker 2 (02:29:47):
But they were so much fun.
Because I'm living alone, Idon't need to buy clothes
because I have my uniform.
When I come to work, I'm pickedand dropped from the house as
staff.
I eat all my meals in the hotelbecause there's a staff
cafeteria.
They are free.
So even you didn't have agirlfriend, nothing.
No, I wasn't even dating atthat time.

Speaker 3 (02:30:05):
Why would you need if everything is taken care of,
what am I?

Speaker 2 (02:30:09):
I mean, I go to the office at 7 am, work until 3
because there used to be shifts.
Sometimes the guy who'ssupposed to bail me out at 3
doesn't show up, or maybe he'sbeen sent to a different because
nobody knew the importance ofinternet.

Speaker 3 (02:30:20):
Sent to a different.

Speaker 2 (02:30:21):
I do two shifts.
7 am up to like 11 pm, so youhave more money, more money.
Then people leave there.
They're like, ah, they don'teven go home.
I think there was that time wasmostly Zanze and Dolce, those
were the clubs.
They go there till morning, theinto the intercom, showers,
dresses up to the reception andhe's there for another 12 hours.

(02:30:43):
I'm like man, that life.

Speaker 3 (02:30:44):
But we lived it.

Speaker 2 (02:30:45):
It was okay, it was just learning to survive.
I didn't have a mattress.
I mean I had a mattress.
I remember when I moved out, Ibought a mattress and that was
it.
My dad was like no, no, no, youneed to buy your own things.

Speaker 3 (02:30:56):
There's nothing like a decaring.
Your things are not.

Speaker 2 (02:31:02):
These are my things now you are an adult.
Yeah, these are the things inmy house are my things, so you
plan yourself what a mattressput it on the ground.
I have photos, obviously, forthe mattress somewhere and I
started now building from therebut I didn't know how to buy.

Speaker 3 (02:31:10):
It started from the foundation.
Yes, I didn't buy it because Ididn't need to cook and I never
hosted anyone, because hostingis a cost.

Speaker 2 (02:31:17):
So I was like, yes, yes, can we just operate in the
hotel remotely?

Speaker 3 (02:31:21):
yeah, the days, when I days, when I'm so tired I
don't want to go home.

Speaker 2 (02:31:23):
I just tell the duty manager he gets me a room I
sleep, Wake up in the morning.
It was a good life and we putin serious time.
I mean built stuff there, madethings happen Until, yeah, the
rug was pulled from under ourfeet by 9-11.
So Intercom American hotel.
Majority majority, like 70%, ofthe guests were American.

(02:31:45):
Yes, because that was the hotel, even when what is her name?
The foreign secretary at thattime was her, maybe Albright?
She actually stayed at theIntercon that was the consulate.

Speaker 4 (02:32:03):
was that?
Was there?

Speaker 2 (02:32:03):
yes, that was their hotel.
Anybody who was coming in fromthe US used to come to the
Intercon, because it's anAmerican establishment and I
feel it was one of the biggesthotels besides the Norfolk and
Hilton.
Yeah, it was A1.
So, standards were set as perthe Intercon for the US.
So when 9-11 happened,occupancy moved from 95% to 12%

(02:32:24):
within a day.
Because, you know, theairspaces were shut so nobody
was traveling and we didn't haveany local tourists Nobody.
We just used to deal withforeigners.
We never had any local guys.

Speaker 3 (02:32:32):
The only local guys were MPs guys crossing from
parliament to have a cup of tea.

Speaker 2 (02:32:38):
And then go back.
And then guys used to come toSafari Bar, make some noise
there Majority then BritishAirways and KLM used to stay
there as well.
That was their hotel for staffwhen they're in the country
layovers, they would stay there.
That was it.
That was the business model.
9-11 happened.
Everything went shh, and so, asper even computer systems, last

(02:32:59):
in, first out, redundant.
It's called V4 computer systemsFast in fast out.

Speaker 3 (02:33:04):
Redundant, yes, why we keep the?

Speaker 2 (02:33:05):
guys here, fast in, fast out.
Why we keep the guys here?
You can't sustain them.
Yes, so it's easier to let goof the guys who are younger in
the business because the payoffis less.
These guys, some guys, I meanthey are 30, so there's no way
how they're going to releasethem to figure out that
experience cannot just be yesyou will pay heftily.
So let's keep those ones, evenif they can't do the cyber job.

(02:33:27):
Let's keep those ones and getthese other young guys to live.
So left but I was like I haveskills for talking and doing
stuff and they had a membershipclub.
I'm like, okay, let me do, letme sell for you guys your
loyalty club, just to be called.
Privilege Club.

Speaker 3 (02:33:42):
The intercom.

Speaker 2 (02:33:43):
So call big people, tell them hey, there's this, you
can come, you can have brunchover the weekend.
All that is for 10,000shillings per year and you'll be
having priority when you wantto book hotels.
You want to do all these things, made some sales.
That was my first sales job,selling the hotel on the phone.
So you started a nursing salesand actually these has played a
key role in your, like the restof your, career, and there's one

(02:34:06):
thing that I even personallylearned from that is that those,
some of those small, smallopportunities that we create and
be passionate about, because,at the end of the day, where
would you go?
Where would you go and have acyber job?
Right?

Speaker 3 (02:34:20):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (02:34:21):
They come in handy over time in the shippers.
And then you did that for howmany years?
That was like for three years,just two thousand one, two,
three.
And then in the third year Itried to sell this club to some
guy.
I called somebody from paulmitchell insurance company um uh
, the ceo, because we used toshortlist based on you know

(02:34:43):
influence and title yeah,because those are the guys who
can afford 10,000 shillings justlying somewhere without any use
.
I called the guy up.
I told him my story I'm verygood at English and convincing
people.
He's like yeah okay, I'm notcommitting to anything.
You come and see me.
I went to see the guy.
I narrated to him the story,told him how this thing will
help him.
He's asking me I just put moneythere and then what does it do?

(02:35:04):
It doesn't do anything.
But when you come, we use thatas some loyalty things.

Speaker 1 (02:35:11):
How long have you done this thing?
So I told him three years.

Speaker 2 (02:35:13):
He told me I have a real job for you.
I have a real job for you.
This is not a job.
This thing you're doing, thisis a joke.
Are people buying this thing?
I'm like yeah.

Speaker 4 (02:35:24):
Which people are these?
I need to meet these guys, Ithink you can have a ready
clientele.

Speaker 2 (02:35:29):
If the guys have bought that thing, this air
thing, they can buy what I wantto give you to sell.
I'm like, what do you want meto do?
I said, yeah, come and sellinsurance.

Speaker 1 (02:35:38):
The hardest job on the planet earth.

Speaker 2 (02:35:48):
I the hardest job on the planet earth.
I got insurance.
Yeah, 2003, three years tellinginsurance knocking on people's
doors, getting into you knowreceptions and everyone
disappears.
Mm-hmm, I was, I was powerful.
Yeah, yeah, the way nobody wasto live insurance guys.
That's why I said it's thehardest job on the planet.
If you have sold insurancesuccessfully, you're going to be
wealthy.

(02:36:08):
You're just, you're just.
I don't know.
You're not utilizing yourtalents.
There's that aspect which I'mnow utilizing.
But anyway, yes.
So I got in there, he gave methe job.
He told me yeah, first threemonths, I'll pay you some
retainer.
From the fourth month you ownyour own.
Go and make the money andsupport yourself Like, ah, let's
do this.
Man so got in with my list ofthe guys that sold air to Called

(02:36:31):
them up, said now, now there'ssomething I can sell.
You value, you know, but thelast thing an African wants to
hear when you die.

Speaker 3 (02:36:43):
Are you prophesying?

Speaker 2 (02:36:44):
When you die?
Ah, the guy just shuts down.
I realized I can't use thatlanguage for children.
When you die, you know yourfamily will laugh.
He says I'm not working for myfamily, I'm working for me.
I want to see something that istangible today.
So I changed tact, realizedokay, there's other ways I can
do this thing.
Since I'm good at writing, letme look for a way to write a
script.

Speaker 3 (02:37:01):
What.

Speaker 2 (02:37:02):
I will do is I look through my emails.
Those days people used toforward things.
You know the way.
Now we are doing WhatsAppsending messages.
People used to forward on emailAll sorts of things.

Speaker 4 (02:37:10):
Yahoo, yes, yahoo, and Gmail.

Speaker 2 (02:37:12):
So I go into my profile and look at it.
I had like four email addressesjust for the sake of collecting
data.
People forward things and Iused to encourage you don't have
any new forwards nowadays,because what was I doing?
I was harnessing data.
You know, those days we didn'thave GDPR, so I'd go into my
email, look for all the mailsI've been sent for.
Then I look for the addresseswhich end at africastalkingcom

(02:37:33):
at eablcom.
Of course those are staff atkcbcoke, I know.
But if I see at Gmail I can'ttell this fellow he's maybe done
even work.
But now the problem is when Igo to like twarrior at
africastalkingcom.
Is it T-warrior, Is it warrior?

(02:37:57):
Is it war?
Then the other name is Iria.
I can't tell.
So how can I write to this guy?
Dear is it, sir, or is it madam?
because you don't know if it's aone name or two names and those
days it's like all of them werethose ones of P Angatia, t
Waria it wasn't Paul or Tangatia.
There were very few that werelike that which you could say,

(02:38:17):
ah, this is Paul.
So I say who forwarded thisemail?
I write the note of the personwho forwarded the name and then
I list all the people who havegotten from his forward it'll
come in handy, because insuranceis about social proofing now,
if you call, somebody hey, myname is so, and so the first
thing they always ask you firstthing where did you get my
number?

Speaker 4 (02:38:37):
true, true, yeah, who gave my?

Speaker 2 (02:38:41):
name yes, guy.
So they start asking.
So they would ask how did youget my email?
I go back.
Nani referred me, in fact, youknow there's something we are
discussing with him we arediscussing with him.
He thought it would be useful.
By the way, I don't even knowthat fellow who has forwarded
the email because this is five,six forwards down down there.
Yes, I don't know who that is.
Yes, but I know there is thecredibility of that name.

(02:39:02):
Yes, hey, it opened doors Irealized yeah, am I struggling?
going to bus stops and standingand people excuse me, you know
my name is.
I work from home.
I know by nature I'm anintrovert.
It doesn't come out veryclearly but I am.
I'm a very conservative fellow.
I just sometimes just want tokeep my own peace.
Now, to get me out, to startknocking on strangers doors and

(02:39:22):
going to you know offices andjust opening doors and you know,
cold calling.
That was a struggle.
It was a struggle.
I was like this is my shortcut.
See, I know I can write.

Speaker 4 (02:39:30):
You're going to drive these messages give me yes from
that writing.

Speaker 2 (02:39:34):
By the way, I got very many referrals.
That's how I built my insurancebusiness and I was able to
thrive for like three years itwas three years and something,
and then I got into anotherchallenge because I wrote to one
of those guys like that he sent.
He saw the email, he looked ather.
He said I think we need to meet.
Can you come to my office,whatever, whatever that guy was
working at uunet at that time.
That was uh.

(02:39:56):
Now it is called mtn business soI go tells me, you wrote me
another email they lucky.

Speaker 3 (02:40:01):
It was very interesting.
What is this you're talkingabout?

Speaker 2 (02:40:04):
So I sat, I said, this is my chance.
You know the times you selluntil you forget that the
customer has already bought.

Speaker 3 (02:40:10):
You're still selling.

Speaker 2 (02:40:11):
This is the fear that salespeople have.
Because we talk so much, youforget even you miss out the
cues.
So, I spoke, spoke, spoke,spoke.
This guy had already shut downfrom the third minute.

Speaker 3 (02:40:20):
He wasn't listening.

Speaker 2 (02:40:22):
He was just waiting for me to finish.
Then he says ah, I like how youexpress yourself, how you
explain things.
Whatever this thing you'reselling doesn't work in Africa.
I want to give you a solutionthat you can go and sell.
Yeah which is making a lot ofsense now.
It's making connecting people,systems, services.
It is the future.
So that you stop this hogwashthing that you're doing here for

(02:40:45):
I don't know, and this is mylivelihood.

Speaker 3 (02:40:47):
I'm just thinking in my head.

Speaker 2 (02:40:48):
Actually that is one of the reasons why I dropped
insurance, because theperception, I think even till
today, is so negative, becausewe never had a chance to really
understand how insurance can beutilized to leverage and grow,
especially Africa, I mean the US, europe, a lot of guys in the
West.
Insurance has done a lot forthose economies, a lot.

Speaker 4 (02:41:07):
Africa man Penetration for life insurance.

Speaker 2 (02:41:09):
Anything that is managed by a corporation never
works.
I don't know what it is, Idon't know if it is just our
traditional understanding, andthis is not a Kenyan thing.
This is Africa.
By the way, you have tounderstand this, and it's from
the point of how things are.
Even right now, you pay evenNHIF or NSSF.

Speaker 1 (02:41:35):
How many people?
You hear they depend on.

Speaker 2 (02:41:37):
NSSF after they retire.
You get what I'm saying.
So there's that perception thatyou know insurance, but of
course what you're saying, youwant to go, so there's that.
There's that perception thatyou know insurance, but of
course what you're saying isthat maybe it's not well managed
and there's no that trust andconfidence that this actually
can really work for you once.
Maybe we get there, I'm sure itwill not be a hard sale and I
think we are getting there.
It shouldn't be, especially nowwith technology, because of

(02:41:58):
insure tech and all the thingsguys are doing you.
You can buy insurance in a day.
You can insure a car whenyou're beginning your journey in
the morning.
In the evening it's terminated,you've completed your journey.
Small, small things like thosewill change, of course, the ones
for cars it's just because it'slow.
I can tell you for a fact.
People will not be taking that.
And don't quote me that thereare people who don't have

(02:42:20):
insurance.
They have insurance, but theydon't have insurance.

Speaker 3 (02:42:24):
Yeah, I know If you don't get it.
I know they are quite paid.

Speaker 2 (02:42:28):
Anyway.
So the challenge was that.
Yeah, it was on many levels, Ithink the biggest one we had,
and I remember I once used thattrick.
We were very ferocious peopleand very, I mean, as you said,
if you sell insurance in.

Speaker 3 (02:42:39):
Kenya or in.

Speaker 2 (02:42:39):
Africa you can sell anything, true, true.
I got to the point where now Ilearned a trick from one of the
guys that we had gone to do apitch with.
This guy had gone and he hadgone to a carpenter.
The carpenter had made for hima small coffin, complete with a
glass viewing thing up here, butit's the size of a pen case,

(02:43:02):
the one that holds a pen.

Speaker 4 (02:43:04):
Yeah, a very small one.

Speaker 2 (02:43:05):
Wooden he's put some varnish.
Looks very neat.
Just to fit in his pocket theinside coat.
You used to carry a coffin onhis coat.
Yeah, I used to carry it.

Speaker 1 (02:43:13):
So we've gone, we've pitched.

Speaker 2 (02:43:16):
We've spoken until the mouth goes dry.
This guy is not budging.
And it was a high net worthindividual, a guy who would pay
upwards of 50,000 a month.
Good money.
I spoke and then realized thisis not working, so I'm ready to
give as in.
We are wasting time here.
This guy tells me no, no, no,okay, so I've understood.

(02:43:36):
The guy had all the answers,all the pushbacks.

Speaker 4 (02:43:39):
So there is no way to get him.

Speaker 2 (02:43:42):
We tried and this is a guy I'm going with, a veteran
of like 20 years.
So, he has seen it all.
Yeah, so I had never seen thiscoffin of it.
That part I didn't know.
So, I'm saying it's done.
I mean, why are you wastingtime?
He pulls there.
He says okay.
So what I want to understand?
Just tell me, you know peopleknow that we know each other.
You know you tell me the daywhen you're lying here he

(02:44:05):
removes the thing, puts it onthe table.
When you're lying here in thisthing, tell me, when I'm going
to tell your wife why you diedand you are a poor man.
You never had any plans forchildren and all Tell me what
I'll say.
You guys had courage.
He put the coffin on the table.
You guys had courage.
You guys had.
He put the coffin on the table.
You guys were not beaten up.
No, we were never beaten up.

(02:44:25):
No, there were places we werechased.
You guys were lucky.
I'm telling you even today, ifyou do, that to some guys, they
will no, of course they willassault you, that guy.
We were lucky.
I think we had pushed to theedge until he said it's okay to
get this.
Rid of these guys let me justsubscribe and he signed.
But amazingly, those difficultones, they're the ones who stay

(02:44:46):
for life.
That guy maintained that policyfor 25 years until he died 25
years and they made good money.
I think it was paid somethinglike 40 million the family so it
was a good thing, nice and itwas good that we forced the guy
to do that because, as you say,a lot of these guys carry
facades.

Speaker 3 (02:45:02):
They are out here opulence, big cars and all, but
in actual fact, when you slip,not get to the bone.

Speaker 2 (02:45:07):
There's nothing and it gets very, very traumatic for
, like the children, having seenyou know, we used to go live
this lavish lifestyle.
I mean, why should it be thatsomebody dies?
They were living in lovington.
Then the kids have to move tolike and I'm not saying it's a
bad place.
But I mean then the kids haveto move to Umoja.
And I'm not saying Umoja is abad place, but I mean how do
those kids adjust to life?
They were born in Lovington, butfinally this house was not even

(02:45:29):
in his name.
So anyway, insurance helps withsuch cases, believe it or not,
I like how you put that.
Anyway, that case came out.
So by the time I was going tosell to this girl of mine for
UNET, she tells me yeah, nowonder you're not making sales.

Speaker 3 (02:45:43):
This insurance we don't buy.

Speaker 2 (02:45:45):
People make money, they invest, they use that money
to support their families.
This insurance nonsense, wedon't buy.

Speaker 3 (02:45:51):
So, here come tomorrow and I'll explain to you
what you can do.

Speaker 2 (02:45:54):
She said ah, it doesn't hurt, I'm in the
learning game.
In any case, I'm not salariedby anyone.
This is a commission job Ishowed up showed me.
Okay, now I want you to sellinternet connectivity.

Speaker 1 (02:46:04):
Yeah, and I'll show you how it works you know when
you connect to the internet theone, and now you have that
experience of a cyber yes yes, Iremember how I was doing my
connections.

Speaker 2 (02:46:13):
It's like things have progressed.
Forget about those dialoguesyou're doing.
Now.
We're even higher speeds.
Still the undersea cable hasn'tlanded, because this was 2006.
So he shows me, tells me yeah,and in fact, what were you being
paid?
So I gave him the figure that Iwas being paid on the first
month, which is like the highestfigure I was ever paid there as
in terms of salary.
So they would pay you thirtythousand, and then month to

(02:46:34):
twenty thousand and month three,ten thousand, month for you on
your own.
I went and said thirty thousand, but I never said it was thirty
thousand, only only one month.

Speaker 4 (02:46:41):
I just said 30,000.

Speaker 3 (02:46:46):
He said ah, I'm going to pay you 45.
So 45, what Every?

Speaker 2 (02:46:48):
month guaranteed.
He said 45 per month.
I'm like, wow, people can earnthis money, okay.
So I said, okay, fine, we canstart.

Speaker 1 (02:46:54):
Where do I begin?

Speaker 2 (02:46:55):
Wait a minute, paul.
So this issue of your dadsaying, saying you can go to
overseas and study.

Speaker 3 (02:47:00):
Oh, yes, that was done.

Speaker 2 (02:47:03):
Sorry, I haven't, I jumped the gun.
So when 9-11 happens, I startselling this thing online.
And then 2003 I start sellinginsurance.
So we scheduled for me to joincampus to go to New Jersey 2004
January.
I was like, okay, planseverything done, the cities,

(02:47:24):
whatever, everything.
It's because my brothers werethere, so yeah, it was a process
yeah I'm like fine, so let memake some money on these calls
and a few because I know thisinsurance is just for a year.
Yeah, I'm not even going to doit for long.
2004, in january, out ofnowhere, my dad gets sick.
I think it was like in Jan,like 10th of Jan, and I had

(02:47:44):
planned to fly like I think itwas February, february or March,
I can't remember.
Jan, he gets very sick out ofnowhere, somebody who's never
been to hospital so we're likeeh, what's wrong?
and this is the problem with.
They usually say, when you livein, like why you and I can't go
and eat like in, what can I say?
Maybe not being demeaning,maybe korogosho, because maybe

(02:48:09):
the water they cook with is noton a certain level.
The guys who are there are okay.
They'll never be for sale, butif someone else comes, somebody
else comes Because your immunitylevel is not on that level of
that guy.
So the moment you get exposedto that thing it will probably
take you out.
So he he's never been inhospital, never been.
So there was never a time whenyou needed to ever check

(02:48:30):
anything if a guy's unwell andanything apparently um, during
his travels during uh campaigns1981.
Um he'll young by then of those,because he would go on a
campaign for like two weeksbecause that constituency was
massive.
I told you One of those areas.
There was a time when they weredriving down some place and

(02:48:51):
some villagers from the opposingcamp rolled a boulder onto the
road and they had these oldRenaults, very tough ones, very
old, crashed into that boulder.
They were not injured at leastyou know.
But they never used to do logs,internal things and all they
just went check up a bit.
The guy is like no, no, we haveto get to the next rally.
So he moved on after thecheckups.
They're like this guy is nottoo bad.

(02:49:12):
In fact, the checkup was donein the evening at the hospital
it was just basic how are youfeeling, how are your bones?
you know the doctor feels youdon't know x-rays and things
like those.
Yeah, so it turns out that whenhe had that um accident and he
went on to play football evenfor the mp parliament kenya
parliament team uh, at thebottom of his spine there was a
bit of a fragmentation thathappened, so dropped into the

(02:49:35):
spinal cord some, some bonesfragmented at the bottom of the
spine and these things over theyears.
You know, he'd once in a whilecomplain of backache, whatever
any of our politicians and men.
We don't go to hospital, don'tlike checkups.
Now suddenly is very unwellbecause he can't stand to eat.
He's feeling pain in the backthese I mean his joints even
when the wind passes he'sfeeling pain on the skin like

(02:49:58):
what's this?
We started doing checkups.
Now because of those checkups Iwasn't able to, because now I
was the one taking him around.

Speaker 3 (02:50:05):
Let's go to hospital, let's take care, let's do this.

Speaker 2 (02:50:07):
I wasn't able to fly out.
I was like, once we are sortedwith this thing, we'll know what
happens.
And I'll go February, March,April by the time we were
realizing what he was sufferingfrom spent so much money on
hospitals.
They are not diagnosing goingto all the big hospitals.
It was actually diagnosed bysome hospital in Eldoret because
he had been like I'm tired ofthis and he needs in Nairobi.
I'm going home yeah so, like afriend of his, called me hey,

(02:50:31):
prof man, you used to be myteacher in KU come let's check
for you.
They did for him those checkupsand he found the guy had he'd
contracted, developed leukemia,based on the fact that the bones
when they fragmented, they wentinto the bloodstream and
poisoned.
So over time sitting there theblood was poisoned and it's now
festered and created some caseof leukemia.

Speaker 1 (02:50:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:50:54):
So now, ah yeah, leukemia, okay.
So what do we do?
He's like ah, no me, no me,I've lived my life, I'm okay,
let's just try and maintain thisthing.
We manage it.
So the doctors didn't want totell us, but it was like stage
four.

Speaker 3 (02:51:07):
It was far gone, really far gone.

Speaker 2 (02:51:09):
But, because you know , he never used to do oils, he
never used to eat fried stuffall his life.
So a lot of it was not didn'tmanifest.
Yeah, it was like the body wasjust fighting and doing things.
It was like, you know, boiledmaize, I don't know Nduma, I
don't know black girl, you knowall those things.
Now, when he gets that sick, hegoes back home, stays in the

(02:51:32):
village.
We try and manage staff buyinghim drugs and all.
Even guys rally, mps, and Imean at that time he didn't make
it into the 2002 parliament, sohe's now an ex-MP.
When MPs are rallying they'resaying, yeah, we hear the guy is
sick.
Oh, we want to see what.
What they were planning toactually lift him to the UK
because in the UK they transfuse.

Speaker 3 (02:51:48):
You can.
Actually they treat leukemia, Iknow they treat for kids.

Speaker 2 (02:51:51):
Is it the one that they remove the bone marrow and
replace it.
Yeah, bone marrow transplantprocess and there was no way
this guy was going to spend anyof his money.
My kids, have how many years tolive man.
What am I?
I've lived how many.
What have I not done?
I've served in all levels ofgovernment.

Speaker 3 (02:52:10):
I mean, what am I?

Speaker 2 (02:52:10):
lacking, so he was content to stay in the village
there.

Speaker 3 (02:52:14):
These guys.

Speaker 2 (02:52:15):
They put money together, they tried to whisk
him, sneak him out of thecountry.
He's like but I'll go, but I'llcome back in a coffin.
So they're like okay, and youknow, with terminal diseases, if
the person themselves theydon't have the will, they waste,
waste of time.
So he's like no, no, me, I'mokay.
So he's just, you know, slowlydeteriorating.

(02:52:37):
So the challenge was it's a bigcrisis to everyone because they
don't have a go-to person andhim.

Speaker 3 (02:52:42):
He doesn't have a go-to person, yeah, so he's just
dealing with everything byhimself.

Speaker 2 (02:52:46):
Yes, the challenge of people who are go-to, and my
mom, I think, used to tell methat thing don't be a go-to
person for people who you cannotgo to, yeah, that's a waste of
your life because you'll be theone.
Oh, he told us.
And you know, people who takedon't have limits, they just
keep taking, taking, taking.
Figure out how you can findsome controls.
So that when things are tight,you can also go and get some

(02:53:08):
relief.
He never had.
He never had that kind of asystem.
He was always the one at thetop of the tree.
Even if he had built this wholesocial network such that now
people who are dependent on himwere not too many, but still he
didn't have anyone he could bedependent on yes, yes.
So he stayed in charge.
Then one day, you know, my momcalls me from nowhere and says
hey, are you in Nairobi?
Come, where are your brothers?
Call them.
Your dad has been looking quiteunwell the last few days so he

(02:53:32):
has come.
You know he has catheters, hehas all sorts of things.
Hair disappeared, but you canstill hear His voice is strong.
He's still talking.
He's still, you know, active.
Yeah, guys, yeah, you know,they're planning out life.
So, what are your kids doing?

(02:53:52):
What are you guys doing?
Okay, this is what you need todo.
He's have those things.
She was basically telling ushey, come and say kwa heri.
So we went, we saw the guy andthen we came back to Nairobi Two
months later.
He passed on Like okay, I waslike, but he had planned his
life out.

Speaker 3 (02:54:12):
He had already seen he lived fully, yes, so he
didn't have any regrets and allso it was meant to be.

Speaker 2 (02:54:18):
But then what happened?
Is it curtailed my plan?

Speaker 3 (02:54:21):
To go and study.

Speaker 2 (02:54:22):
Yes, I didn't go, so I was like now, what am I going
to do with school?
Then at that time I had asister.
I have a younger sister, so shehad just joined Catholic
University that year.
So there is a fee there is afee yes.
So, who is going to pay thesefees?
And he hadn't, you know, thesethings of just amassing.

Speaker 3 (02:54:37):
He never amassed those things Never.

Speaker 2 (02:54:39):
In fact, he died intestate.
He didn't have a will.
Even so, we're trying toprocess wills and things in 20,
I think 10 years later.
That's when my mom was gettingall the estates, whatever
letters of administration.
So in that period you couldn'tchoose any resources.
And then, because there's nomoney in the bank and all these
things, it was just a pensionthat was yeah, you can't believe

(02:55:01):
what it is right now.
But anyway, 72,000.
So the pension of 2000,.
They don't put inflationaryprotection, oh yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:55:10):
So whatever pension, it was 6,000, 5,000 pension.

Speaker 2 (02:55:12):
that is what you'll be sent Till 19,.
Whatever, they don't have anyinflation, nothing up to you.
So anyway, we got into the modenow to support my sister,
because me I'm like me.

Speaker 3 (02:55:23):
where I've reached man I can hustle through this
life and there's somethingcoming in.

Speaker 2 (02:55:27):
My sister doesn't have, so let's figure out what
we can do for her.
So we try to now get herthrough campus, continue going.
So because now the resources,amazingly, when I would be
selling insurance?
It is because I guess sometimesthey say people's prayers are
answered through other people,so somehow I always had deals
there were always deals tosettle her fees.
I've sold this.

(02:55:48):
I've sold this always, untilthe day when she graduated.

Speaker 4 (02:55:51):
When she graduated, the deals disappeared so I think
, yeah, I think that isinteresting.

Speaker 2 (02:55:57):
God in his wisdom was answering her prayer through me
and making sure that I hadsufficient to support her.
This is what I did.
So now, when we finished, thenI'm now shifting to this other
job.
I'm like I need to get mypaperwork in place.
I can't go on like this.
So I looked for a college.
I'm like all these things areso expensive.
Then I have to leave thecountry and I've never had the
ambition to really relocate.

(02:56:17):
My, my bros were there.
They did 3-4 jobs.
By the time they settled andbecame proper at some point they
had disappeared in the system,because when your papers,
whatever, expire and you can'tsurface, you just live
underground until when theysorted out that stuff and all.
So I was like that doesn't soundlike a very good life so I
never had the ambition a lot ofguys sent me applications.
We had people who had leftschool.
Many guys left and gone to theUS.

(02:56:41):
Hey, there's a chance, there'sa process, you can do this.
That the other.
I would be half-hearted.
I'd be like I'm feeling, I'mfeeling, but I never, ever,
never, ever went through withthe process.
I just, I think also my dad,passing on, left such a dump in
my life.
I was like why am I going thatfar?
The guy, is just here.
I think you get such an.
You don't want to go far.

Speaker 3 (02:56:59):
Then my mom is here.

Speaker 2 (02:57:00):
We are still beating stories the survival how life
was.
Things were okay.
So I was like I'll stick around.
So then I looked for a collegeonline.
I got Washington Universityjoined and that's when I did my
business administration,international business
administration yeah, online forlike three years by the time I
was, I had already joined UN bythat time.

(02:57:25):
Changing to mtn the likes ofbitanga demo had come into power
and we got our undersea cableand then from there, as you say,
you know, did you join.
That's when you joinedsafaricom.
So now, if I come, push me frommtn business 2010 like hey, you
know we hear you do this at theother camera.
You can do for us a few things.
And I joined safaricom.
Yeah, uh, account manager, youknow they moved on, started
managing people at the time youknow, then moved on, started
managing people.
By the time, you know, fiveyears I think, I had moved up.
Like every two years I keptmoving, so it was a good time as

(02:57:47):
well.
In that period is when, also, Ithink, the prowess within the
industry.
Now you know.
Yeah, I was just now showcasinga lot of things talents and all
innovations.
Change systems in Safaricomhelped them to get better
strategies around going tomarket revenue generation for
the enterprise side, the guyswho set up the enterprise
business unit.

(02:58:08):
So, yeah, oracle guys come andsay hey, we hear you're doing
this, that the other Somebodyhas left, so you were the one
who set up Oracle in Kenya right, no.
Oracle in Kenya had been set upby.
There was a guy who was therebefore who also I had met in
high school.
He's the one who set it up,yeah, um, and he had really done
a lot.
He's the guy who actually mademe move from safari because

(02:58:31):
there was that connection fromyes, from high school and also
they had lost somebody.
There's a guy who I don't know.
I think it was fraud orsomething.
Anyway, somebody leftunceremoniously.
The guy was in the the role.
So then I moved into the role,so then I ran the role for like
one year and then this guy whohad pulled me in moved to
another company, to become now aserious don on that side, but
left me exposed, I'm like wow,because now I hadn't done, I

(02:58:58):
needed to move to be countryleader.
He left when I was at one and ahalf years so they brought in
somebody else and we never gotalong and she just I don't know.
There was some insecuritiesaround, you know you know, stuff
I want her role.
I was not interested.
Yeah, I was happy in the rolethat I had.

(02:59:19):
But anyway, long and short is,with all experience and all she
created a restructuring, so itwas global, but it was just
targeting me, and another guy,two guys.
Yeah, she had her own plans, butI said, anyway, what?
What transpired from that I wasnot too disappointed is because
from that experience, I thennow went into consulting, now
set up my own business andapprenticeship, so it wasn't

(02:59:41):
very much.
Uh, how would I put?
It wasn't wasn't voluntary perse.
Yeah, I was pushed into it.
Circumstances that's 2017.
Yeah, just come out of anelection, we've had a rerun.
Everybody's just looking likethings are bad in this country.
And then somebody tells you ah,by the way, you know, your job
is surplus requirements.
Like, okay, what do we do?
It's not my dad's company, soyeah, move along.
Yeah, let me come and rememberwhat jack might say yeah, nine

(03:00:03):
to five, five to nine.
Do your thing, learn as much asyou can, because one day you'll
need those skills.
Now you qualis and consolidateall those skills and the skill
set into now consulting yeahthen I go into consulting
consulting across now differentlines of business financial
planning because of insurance.
I'm doing also um careerplanning because of all these

(03:00:24):
recruitment things that I'vebeen doing in safaricom it was a
very big segment of my role andthen also doing sales
management yeah in that period Igo and consult for a company
called avanti.
This is a visa from the ukconsult, give them a plan to do
east africa, what they can do,grow the business and all yeah.
After two, three months of backand forth trying to help them
out, they're like this thing ofyours, man, it's brilliant, but

(03:00:45):
we are unable to execute.
Please, can you come on board,help us to execute it.
So I joined Avanti full time.
I left the consulting for a bit.
I was in Avanti for the nexttwo years or so 2018 up to 2021.
Then last year they got hitwith COVID and all, and then the
thing that you never hear a lotabout they sold out the

(03:01:09):
products.
Basically, it's a satellitecompany, so it has capacity that
is bought in a transponder inthe sky.
That is the transponder that isused to provide internet
connectivity.
When the cable doesn't work.
Yeah, so some places peoplestill use satellite, but it was
mostly for remote regions andalso backholing, like Safaricom.
There are base stations like inGarisa, lodwa they use.

(03:01:31):
Vsat.
Yes, because the VSAT basestation takes like two days to
set up.

Speaker 1 (03:01:36):
Very quick, very cheap Maybe $5,000, $7,000.

Speaker 2 (03:01:39):
The typical pay station, normal one, takes about
a month and costs about$750,000.
It's a massive difference.

Speaker 3 (03:01:49):
But then this one.
It's a lot of money.

Speaker 2 (03:01:50):
Yeah, but this doesn't carry too much capacity
and in any case they put it inareas where the population is
very little.
It doesn't justify investing$750,000 to set up that.
So we got good business insetting up those ones.
Kenya, and also a lot for MTN.
South Sudan, drc.
Uganda yes, somali a lot untilwe ran out of capacity.

(03:02:13):
So now what were we doing there?
I was just sitting managingcustomers.

Speaker 3 (03:02:18):
People call I'm now managing complaints.

Speaker 4 (03:02:19):
I'm like this is not alive I think it's just
something.

Speaker 2 (03:02:24):
Yeah, what, what am I doing here?
So anyway, they gave us anoption.
You know handshake, you knowguys can leave.
We create a smaller businessthat just manages the customers.
We have one, but because wecan't grow any further I'm like
yeah handshake.
So I left last year inseptember and now move back into
consulting.
Now full swing into startupsBuilding stuff, trying to figure

(03:02:44):
out what guys are trying toachieve in the market that is in
tech, yes, tech, mostly fintech, agritech.
When I look at your experience,paul, it's quite amazing that
you have come a long way Now.
When you put the stories, yourpersonal story and what you are
doing right now, it becomes afull house in how someone can

(03:03:08):
understand what you have beendoing, the different career path
that you have had, and it'squite outstanding, I would say,
and we are honored to have youhere today.
I would like to ask yourparting shot to our listeners,

(03:03:31):
okay?

Speaker 4 (03:03:32):
I like that thought.

Speaker 2 (03:03:35):
I love that thought.
There are so many shots that'sthe problem, so I'm trying to, I
think, confine it into justmaybe one thing that I can say
yeah, that will probably umcannot value uh to people.
Yeah I think especially toentrepreneurs entrepreneurs yeah
on the, on the, I think, theentrepreneur end.

(03:03:57):
What I've always seen is as abig challenge is uh, everybody
is interested in setting upsomething when we find people
are struggling to scale isbecause we are always going out
to create products and look forcustomers for products, Whereas
we are actually supposed tocreate products for our

(03:04:19):
customers not lookfor customers for our products.
So provide solutions to ourcustomers, Not look for
customers for our products.
So provide solutions to thecustomers.
Yes, which means there'ssomething that is existing,
there's a gulf, there's a gap,there's a need, there's a pain.
We're going to solve that pain.
We're looking at who's ourcompetitor, how many people are
impacted by this pain?
If I'm in the same pain, wouldI use this product that I'm

(03:04:39):
setting up?
How far or what more can I dowith it in terms of getting out
of my boundaries?
If you figure that out, itresolves many problems around
useless products that we have inthe marketplace, Because people
come in they say I sawsomething in San Francisco, I
saw something in.
Wherever they come, they createsomething.
They say, okay, we are going tomarket.
Ideally for the ones that arescalable and the quickest to

(03:05:04):
actually return revenue arethose products that are
addressing a need that wasidentified before the product
was even concepted.
Because when I was in Safaricom, we came up with many products,
we started looking forcustomers for those products.
It is the hardest thing you'llever do in sales.
If we just went and discoveredwhat are the products that
customers require, the customerswill come because, they already

(03:05:25):
know what they need, and unlessyou're Steve Jobs, because
that's the one guy that I knowwho created who said?
The customer doesn't know whatthey need until they have he
created the need.
He influenced the pain himself.
He went and told us the waythese phones we have are of no
use.

Speaker 3 (03:05:41):
They are not phones.

Speaker 2 (03:05:41):
We need a phone that can do computerization, can do
photos, everything together likea computer.
And we suddenly said, yeah, wehave this pain we never had such
a pain.
There was no such pain.
He created it and from there,apple has never looked back.
Everybody else, of course.
You will get one of those.
There are a few outliers whichyou get.
Yeah, people create somethingand they force it into the
market and it works majority ofthe time, especially for us when

(03:06:03):
we're trying to start up thingsbefore you really have the
revenues to drive solutions.
Try and see how you can addressa pain that is existing, true,
true, it will solve so manyproblems down the road, yeah,
and now in there, you're nowbuilding things of your, uh,
your intelligence.
That thing of knowing one thingabout so many things helps to
build your capacity around beinga reference or go-to person to

(03:06:26):
help people lift them up.
And then just understandingyour surroundings, which people
call it EQ, just knowing okaywhere I am and how can I help
myself in the environment that Iam, and this is not related,
just limited to techies, it'sactually just across the globe.
We also do some careercounseling.
Additionally's to know there'sa time when you'll have a lot of
adversity.
So there's that EQ you need tobuild.

Speaker 3 (03:06:47):
Is it emotional?

Speaker 2 (03:06:48):
quotient Emotional is the one where you just
understand your surroundings,how people are around you, what
they are doing and how yourespond to those non-verbal cues
.
Somebody's in pain.
Sell something to them.

Speaker 3 (03:06:59):
It doesn't make any sense.

Speaker 2 (03:07:00):
People haven't eaten the whole day.
You're trying to talk aboutthis utopia of we'll do this
that day.
The things we were talkingabout for Northeastern Are we
trying to sell to them?
We'll bring drones to.
I don't know.
Do what these guys are dying.
They have not even had waterfor four days.

Speaker 1 (03:07:14):
A drone would save four families, so you see, so
the mismatch, so it's just tounderstand.

Speaker 2 (03:07:19):
It's not just about understanding the people around
you, it's also that environment.
So then you apply accordinglyto that environment to get the
best both from the environmentand from yourself.
Adversity is these things wetalk about.
It doesn't mean our careerswill always be a straight line.
They'll never be.
There'll be dips, there'll beplaces when somebody will wake
up and tell you there are planesthat have crashed into these
two towers and your job is gone.

(03:07:39):
What are you going to do?
Are you going to repair thetowers?

Speaker 3 (03:07:42):
no, yeah, you move on with life I mean you have to
find a way or you'll be toldokay, you sold all the capacity,
or I don't like your face thereare people like that.

Speaker 1 (03:07:49):
You know, that's just the way life is.

Speaker 2 (03:07:51):
I don't like your face.
Please tomorrow don't.
I don't want to see that facehere, yeah, find a place where
that face will be liked and takeit there.
So, and then there's also onefrom my mom, which is used to
call it the love quotient, lq,which is very important to
people who come from verydisadvantaged environments.
Because you've had so much pain, hatred, anger tied in, you've

(03:08:13):
never really experienced love.
Because love unlocks so manyother things beyond all the
other cues.
Because you find somebody who'sa boss, this LQ is sorted.
That guy will treat people well, he will apply his intelligence
properly.
He'll have the right emotionalbalance.
He'll also have the social.
Social is where I'm stuck onthe road.
I you know, at 3 am I can maketwo calls.

(03:08:36):
Maybe the first call won't bepicked, the second one will be
picked and somebody will show up.

Speaker 3 (03:08:47):
That is social if you don't have that you.

Speaker 2 (03:08:48):
It's time to work on it, because it means the day
you'll be stranded, you knowyou're alone, yeah, and the time
when you think your, yourresources will do work for you.
You have 10 farms, whateverland and everything.
When you're sick, the hospitalis not interested in the land
they want cash to sort out bills.
Yeah, you have to look forsomebody to liquidate this land
of yours.

Speaker 3 (03:09:01):
Many times.

Speaker 2 (03:09:02):
A lot of our wealthy people don't even have that so
if you can cut across on allthose, especially the LQ1.
Those cues make sense acrossall industries, but they are
very important for people whoare trying to start up and do
something, because you don'texist in a vacuum.
You have to understand howeverything fits in with this
thing that you're trying tobuild, and how it?
adds value.
The moment you're there,transforming lives, changing,

(03:09:22):
impacting more than one person,you have a chance of making it
in life.
If it's just for you thatyou're looking at and you're
most interested in the revenues,you will sink because you your
eye will be so much on thatrevenue you will forget how you
even got there, which means thatwhen you start tumbling down,
you will not know what to holdon to because you don't know
what you built going up yeahyeah, it's like a house that
comes up in two days the otherguy takes three months to build

(03:09:44):
up the house because concreteneeds to keep drying up.
You came with your wood.
You stuck the wood in theground and you started hammering
upstairs and going when thewind comes.
That wood goes down in two dayswhereas the other guy who took
three months, six months, hishouse still stands.
So it's not always that becauseyour colleague has done
something overnight and it'sworking, you also want to do
overnight.
You give it time, trust theprocess, you'll probably get to

(03:10:06):
a success level.

Speaker 3 (03:10:07):
And we are still going.

Speaker 2 (03:10:08):
We are not finished, gems after gems.
Yeah, paul Angatia, thank youso much.
This was amazing, this wasgreat, and this is the kind of
conversation that will changeAfrica as you know, it and it's
one thing to say something andit's another thing to do, but,

(03:10:28):
paul, I got you assayed and doneit, and he's still here.
We can learn a lot from him,but for today, I would like to
thank you for joining us.
This is Michael Kemadi forImpact Masters and Africa's
Talking Podcast.
Until next time, see you.

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