June 30, 2026 • 28 mins
The marketing world moves FAST, which is why Michael checked-in with Digital Marketing Manager at Punchmark, Hope Bellair, to ask if these 10 Digital Marketing techniques still matter. Hope gets candid with us about everything from hashtags and following counts to AEO and Podcasts. You won't wanna miss this one!
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_01 (00:01):
Welcome back everybody to In the Loop.
What is up everybody?
My name is Michael Burpo.
Thanks again for listening to Inthe Loop.
So this week I'm having on HopeBelair.
She's the digital marketingmanager at Punchmark.
And we have seen a lot of changein the marketing world in the
last, I mean, year, but alsonine years at Punchmark.
(00:24):
And this time I'm checking in on10 marketing, I guess,
techniques or tools.
And I'm asking Hope, do theystill matter?
And she is very honest andexplains uh what matters these
days in the world of marketing,everything from hashtags to AEO
and even podcasting.
So everybody, please enjoy.
SPEAKER_00 (00:50):
This episode is brought to you by Punchmark, the
jewelry industry's favoritewebsite, platform, and digital
growth agency.
Our mission reaches way beyondtechnology.
With decades of experience andlong-lasting industry
relationships, Punchmark enablesjewelry businesses to flourish
in any marketplace.
We consider our clients ourfriends, as many of them have
(01:10):
been friends way before becomingclients.
Punchmark's own success comesfrom the fact that we have a
much deeper need and obligationto help our friends succeed.
Whether you're looking forbetter e-commerce performance,
business growth, or campaignsthat drive traffic and sales,
PunchMark's website andmarketing services were made
just for you.
It's never too late to transformyour business and stitch
(01:32):
together your digital andphysical worlds in a way that
achieves tremendous growth andresults.
Schedule a guided demo today atpunchmark.com slash go.
And now back to the show.
SPEAKER_01 (01:50):
What is up, everybody?
I'm joined by uh Hope Bel Air,digital marketing manager at
Punchmark.
How are you doing today, Hope?
SPEAKER_02 (01:57):
I'm doing well.
How are you?
SPEAKER_01 (01:58):
So well.
Uh I'm excited to get a chanceto talk with you.
You went off to JCK.
Sounds like it was a great time,the land of uh, you know, dry
air and gambling.
And then uh you had a lot ofgreat conversations about
marketing.
It seems, at least to me, thatmarketing is kind of going
through this um real shift, thismetamorphosis right now.
(02:20):
Um, can you just give me, justgive me an idea?
What is the lay of the land whenit comes to marketing?
It seems like some things uh oldtechniques are kind of falling
out of favor and new techniquesaround AI are starting to get
picked up.
SPEAKER_02 (02:31):
Yeah, definitely.
You know, what you kind ofmentioned here with AEO, AI
engine optimization on the rise,and all new LLMs coming into
play, marketing is definitelychanging because not only do we
not or want to rather rank onGoogle, we want to rank on Chat
GPT, Claude, and other, youknow, LLMs that are ranking
(02:56):
jewelry stores type of thing.
So when someone puts a questionin to AI, we want to make sure
that we're there as well as ourtraditional SEO and our social
media and our Google reviews, etcetera, et cetera, et cetera.
SPEAKER_01 (03:10):
Yeah.
Well, so I picked 10 topics, 10marketing things over the years.
And I wanted to ask, do theseeven still matter anymore?
And I want you to be totally,don't be biased on this one.
Let's let's let's give it to thepeople what they want to know.
Because like I've been withPunchmark for nine years, just
(03:31):
already nine years.
Um and what what's interestingis like back in like 2018, we
used to do like social media forsome of our clients.
And it was like a real pain inthe neck, but it was all about
like building this social mediafollowing.
And like we used to researchhashtags and like which ones
were good.
Um, now I don't even thinkthat's like really worth your
(03:51):
time a lot of the times.
Now there's like other stuff,but you can also tell me that.
So um maybe we'll do 10, 10topics on is this even worth it?
And then we can kind of expoundupon it.
Um, how's that sound?
SPEAKER_02 (04:03):
Sounds perfect.
SPEAKER_01 (04:04):
All right, here we go.
Doesn't matter.
SEO ranking for like searchengines, like Google.
SPEAKER_02 (04:11):
Absolutely, definitely still relevant
because at the end of the day,right, if you ask a question
into Google, obviously you'regonna get that AI generated
summary off the top.
However, if you're still lookingfor, let's say, a Garnet
necklace and you just put inGarnet necklace, AI has nothing
to do with that.
(04:32):
So that is going to be yourtraditional SEO.
That is going to be how are yourproducts title tagged, mapped,
categorized, and described onyour website to make Google
happy and make the visibilityall the much more better, as
well as shopping products on thetop of the Google search bar for
the shopping organically.
(04:53):
That is again SEO and especiallyproduct SEO.
So that is definitely stillrelevant.
SPEAKER_01 (05:00):
Yeah, it seemed like uh SEO was about pages and a
website ranking back in the day.
And now it's almost like youwant to have certain things
rank, like you want yourproducts to rank higher, and you
want your um, you know, yourabout us to rank higher.
And it's not necessarily like Ijust want my homepage to be at
(05:22):
the top.
It's like I feel like it'salmost like the products are
more niche kind of rankings.
It's it's sort of interesting.
SPEAKER_02 (05:28):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Now with the introduction ofe-commerce online and all that
fun stuff, you know, some peopledon't need to come into the
store to find what they want.
And that's where SEO is stillmassively in play.
SPEAKER_01 (05:41):
Nice.
Now let's do the other EO.
AEO, does this still matter?
I feel like there's a lot ofchanges in the in the AI world.
Uh, I can't even keep up withthem.
Other people are just totallydialed in, and it's like a
full-time job for them to stayon top of it.
Where does AEO even fit in?
Is it the whole the whole hog atthis point?
SPEAKER_02 (06:02):
Right now, it it definitely is, I I think still
in its growth phase.
So obviously, depending on whoyou talk to, as far as AI bros,
I guess, if you will, too.
Um, it depends on it depends onif you think that the bubble is
going to pop or if it's going totake over, type of thing.
(06:22):
Right now, it's still in thatgrowth phase where we're not
really sure, and there can't be,you know, either answer isn't
necessarily 100% right.
So right now, absolutely forquestions regarding engagement
rings and questions aboutfashion jewelry, the difference
between 10 karat, 14 karat, therest type of thing.
(06:43):
Informational news andinformational facts about
jewelry, your website, yourstore is definitely prevalent at
the moment.
So, yes, AEO is definitely upthere.
SPEAKER_01 (06:57):
And we just launched some exciting AEO tools.
So everyone check that out.
They're all on our blog.
So, all right.
What about this one?
Here we gotta we're gonna getoff the off the beaten track.
Let's get into this one.
Social media following doesn'tmatter at all.
SPEAKER_02 (07:12):
Hot take potentially, hot take alert, but
no, it doesn't necessarilymatter.
Virality is the thing thatmatters more right now,
especially on TikTok.
Um, you could have 50 followerson TikTok and get a video with
over a million views, dependingon you know what kind of hot
(07:35):
topic or you know what kind ofvideo you're putting out there.
And from there, you know,obviously people are going to
recognize your name, dig alittle deeper, and maybe they
will follow you thereafter, butit's not necessarily a necessity
at this point anymore.
SPEAKER_01 (07:49):
It's really, I mean, right on that topic, you're
you're saying having somethinggo vir uh viral.
Uh just yesterday, this ishappening in my hometown.
Uh, there's a little gift cardshop in my hometown called
Heartwood Studios.
Um, I have some of my workthere, and they just had a
Instagram reel pop off for um,it's it's currently at like
three and a half million viewsor something like that.
(08:10):
Like it doesn't really make anysense.
They painted their um theirstorefront in like one of their
doors kind of fun, and it justwent crazy.
Uh, they gained like 2,000 newfollowers off of it directly
from that reel.
They're all like really excitedabout it.
Uh, but it's also kind of like Iwonder if it'll convert to sales
in any way.
Um I don't really know if itdoes, but I think it's kind of
(08:34):
more along the lines of uh I'vealways considered it a vanity
metric.
Um, and it's like what can youdo to activate your your
followers beyond that?
So um, yeah, that's interesting.
SPEAKER_02 (08:44):
Yeah, I think in the case of a gift card shop too, I
think it'll be more of adestination to go to.
SPEAKER_01 (08:50):
I agree.
SPEAKER_02 (08:51):
Once it's viral, you're like, oh, I want to go
there.
SPEAKER_01 (08:53):
How about this one?
This one used to be a hot topicback in like 2018.
Bounce rate.
This is like when people go toyour website and they uh leave
after, I think it's within threeseconds or five seconds, I
forget what the actual cutoffis.
Does bounce rate matter anymore?
SPEAKER_02 (09:10):
Not as a major KPI.
So instead of bounce rate, wenow like to look at engagement
rate because they can stay on,let's say, right, someone clicks
on an ad or your Google rankingon your website gets to the
landing page and opens up thelanding page and then gets
diverted.
(09:30):
Let's say they were with theirfriend, they're gonna now talk
to them for two minutes, andthey're you know, your landing
page is technically not bouncedbecause she didn't leave, right?
But the phone's still open, thelanding page is still on there,
and now the timer is ticking,right?
Two minutes, but she hasn't doneanything.
So now what we're looking at isengagement rate.
(09:52):
They opened it, and then what dothey do on that page?
Did they click on shop now?
Did they click on book anappointment?
Did they, you know, go ahead andvisit multiple different pages
on your website?
Because that at the end of theday is more beneficial to know
than let's say if someone cameon your website and dipped
within three three seconds, orif they stayed on two minutes
(10:14):
and didn't do anything.
So what we need to know is um,you know, what did they do when
they got to the landing page?
Did they get their scroll,realize it wasn't for them, and
leave?
Okay, you know, maybe we cantrack that and and look into
that a little bit more.
But maybe they got there and youknow, honestly, the the younger
generations are quite quick onlanding pages nowadays.
(10:36):
Three seconds, you can get a lotdone.
SPEAKER_03 (10:39):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (10:40):
So I guess that would technically be a bounce,
but because they said, hey,let's shop now within that
three-second mark, it'stechnically not a bounce, and
the engagement rate goes up.
SPEAKER_01 (10:51):
That's uh it's a just a different way of looking
at it.
And I I think I agree with you.
Uh, bounce rate also had to do alot with uh do you have a
pop-up?
And if you had a pop-up, man, ittanked your engagement rate.
Yeah, I I'm just not a fan ofpop-ups in general, but I can
see the utility of them.
We even use pop-ups occasionallyinside of site manager because
(11:11):
they are effective.
But I will say, uh, yeah, whenwe used to look at bounce rates,
I wasn't, it didn't see itseemed like we were missing
something.
Okay, let's do this one.
Emails, open rates, subscribercounts.
Does anybody even read themanymore?
I don't even know if people readmy emails anymore.
What do you think as far as amarketing tool?
SPEAKER_02 (11:34):
So this one's a little bit gray for me.
Yes and no.
The open rate, if you're above30%, you're doing great.
If it's under 30%, there aresome, you know, benchmarks and
things that we we can look at toreally move forward with.
Subscriber count, it doesn't, itdoesn't necessarily matter.
(11:56):
So obviously, with segments andlists and your different
clientele uh in your store, youwant to make sure obviously that
you're not bombarding them andthen every email that comes
their way is kind of a littlebit more special and tailored to
their lifestyle or where they'reat in their in their life.
(12:16):
But as far as you know, generalum subscriber count or open
rates, not necessarily the bestmetric to look at as a whole.
SPEAKER_01 (12:28):
We're, I mean, it's no secret.
Punchmark is actually doing alot of research into uh finding
ways that we can communicate,not just in emails.
Uh emails work great for, Idon't know, probably like 30 to
50% of our client base.
But then like we'll send like alot of this information that is
it is important, and it's justcan't guarantee an open.
(12:51):
So we either have to send a lotof emails, which annoys people,
or we have to send it uh througha different channel.
And we're looking at, you know,communicating with our clients
via text.
Um, I don't know, it's just it'sa weird one.
It's so antiquated, but at thesame time, it seems to be the
gold standard of business.
So what do I know?
I guess.
But all right, everybody, we'regonna take a quick break and
hear a word from our sponsor.
(13:19):
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Thanks, and back to the show.
(14:47):
And we're back.
Let's talk about this one.
Facebook.
And I mean the big blue app,like the actual Facebook.com
doesn't matter at all.
I don't know what you do onFacebook anymore.
Besides make events, actually,is the only thing it's good for.
SPEAKER_02 (15:05):
Well, I'm gonna ask you this Facebook as in, and
this is separate from Instagram,but Facebook as in putting ads
on Facebook or posting toFacebook.
SPEAKER_01 (15:17):
I think both.
Do either of those work?
They do.
SPEAKER_02 (15:21):
So ads would work for your older audience.
Let's think 50 plus estatevintage milestone anniversary
folks, that is what would workon Facebook ads specifically.
If you're looking at anything 50and under, definitely go towards
Instagram, TikTok, the works.
(15:42):
Now, as far as organic posting,Facebook is interesting in that
it is a nice thing to engageyour following list there.
So, like let's say you have anevent, like you said, going on
in the store.
You create the event, you createa post surrounding the event,
and then what you can do in yourcomment section is tag at top
(16:04):
fans, at everyone in that page,in that group, so that they can
engage and kind of look at oh,okay, hey, this is going on at
XYZ jeweler.
I'm definitely interestedbecause it's right up my alley.
Let me put in interest type ofthing.
As far as your general, like,you know how on Instagram
(16:26):
obviously you're posting,congratulations to this couple
for getting engaged with um, youknow, my diamond type of thing,
or um other kind of in-storepromotionals or or funny kind of
reels and stuff like that.
Not necessarily super prevalenton Facebook.
Um, but yeah, that is also justmy take as well.
SPEAKER_01 (16:49):
Man, it's I don't understand the utility of
Facebook anymore.
It used to be the end all beall.
And now I think all of thegoodness of it is just on
Instagram.
But I will say, dude, InstagramShop works for me.
I I just bought something off ofit recently.
I bought a piece of jewelry.
I'll tell other people it it'sreally exciting.
Um, I got for as a gift theselittle dangly earrings and
(17:14):
they're little pocket knives.
Have you ever seen they're likesharp, but like uh they're kind
of cool.
They're like folded up andthey're really, really
beautiful.
Um, but when you can take themout and you can open them up and
they're little knives.
But I saw them on a Facebook ad,and uh, you know how the
retargeting goes?
I was like, wow, I love these.
And um, so there you go.
I guess Instagram's still stillcollecting dollars off of me.
(17:34):
There you go.
Next one.
What do you think about blogs?
Uh, like writing long formcontent, posting it to your
website.
What's your thoughts on blogs?
SPEAKER_02 (17:46):
Definitely still relevant, and this also circles
back to AEO.
So, not necessarily thequantity, because remember in
the old days it would be likepump out as many blogs as you
possibly can to get as muchinformation out there for SEO
purposes, etc.
etc.
Now, less blogs, we don't needto go crazy, and more
(18:08):
informational, again, kind ofFAQ style bullet points
information.
That is what's going to do well.
And again, that's what feeds AIthe you know parameters of what
your store does and all therest.
So, yes, in my opinion, it isdefinitely still relevant.
SPEAKER_01 (18:30):
Yeah, I think that the blogs are just one of the
most direct ways to print andshout the source of uh truth out
into like the world.
Um, you can do it peripherallythrough like you know other
types of posting content and uhyou know having lots of content
geared towards that on yourpage.
But I think in the end, havinglike a some good blogs that
(18:52):
really that are written by ahuman, especially, uh, I do find
is useful.
We're trying to do it atPunchmark.
I will just say it's just verymanual sometimes.
It feels very uh archaic uh atsome points where I'm just like,
wow, or really, I'm stillwriting this stuff and I've been
doing it for nine years.
It's like, huh?
Well, I guess that's what that'swhat gets uh the engines fed.
(19:14):
So all right.
On the same topic, maybe um morearchaic and I but still useful.
What are your thoughts onreviews?
I I would probably say Googlereviews because those are the
only ones that I really careabout.
But what do you think aboutFacebook reviews also?
SPEAKER_02 (19:30):
Definitely still relevant.
That is honestly the bread andbutter of a lot of the jewelers
that I talk to.
Reviews are huge.
Um so if you're getting reviewsoften, and even if you lose
reviews, because that doeshappen to some clients sometimes
where Google will removereviews.
(19:51):
And again, that's you know howyou rank organically.
It has a lot to do with peoplecoming into the store because
they saw, oh, everybody's beenso you know, welcoming here, or
they said nice things, blah blahblah.
That is definitely um a metricthat matters.
Even for instance, I had a storeonce, I saw that someone had
(20:13):
left a 2.5 star review and it itaffected their their business
from there and it had you know,type of thing.
So it's like definitely stillrelevant.
I I know it might sound archaic,but definitely, you know,
relevant for jewelry stores.
SPEAKER_01 (20:30):
Yeah, it's not on my list, but does Yelp matter at
all anymore?
Is that is that a thing?
SPEAKER_02 (20:37):
So it definitely does.
I mean, there's some people thatstill use Yelp.
I mean, if you want to look atreviews on Yelp, they can be
hilarious.
Our sales manager and I, Thomas,at one RJO show about two years
ago, were dying laughing over arestaurant's review.
SPEAKER_03 (20:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:57):
On Yelp.
And you know, it can be fun ifyou just if as a little social
media platform, if you want togo and look and and listen to it
or read it rather.
And uh, but it's not asprevalent, obviously, as Google.
SPEAKER_01 (21:10):
Yeah.
I look at the Google reviews, itdoes seem to give you a good
snapshot, but also sometimesit's like I can't really tell
the difference between 20reviews and 200 reviews.
You know, they're kind of allall the same thing at a certain
point to me.
So I guess once you run up thescore enough, to me, I'm like, I
think that there's diminishingreturns, but uh maybe that's
(21:31):
just me as like a shopper.
Um, I don't know anything aboutthe actual business of it.
But on the same kind of uh era,I guess.
I mentioned it before.
What do you think abouthashtags?
Do they matter?
I don't think they matter.
SPEAKER_02 (21:47):
They don't matter.
They're great for categorizationat this point, but growth?
Not really.
Nope.
SPEAKER_01 (21:54):
Yeah, I think that one is it used to we used to
back in the day.
Remember when Instagram used tolet you put 30 hashtags on every
post and used to have to like goin and comment on your post and
dump all your hashtags in there.
Oh my gosh, it was like somanual.
I had like a copypasta and likea notes doc that I'd have to
paste in.
And that seemed like itmattered.
(22:16):
But now on Instagram, you can'teven follow your uh you can't
even follow hashtags anymore.
You used to.
So like I used to followwatercolor, which was like a
really nice one because you seewatercolor from all over.
But now uh I'm just notconvinced they do anything.
No, no, for hash or forcategorization again, yes, but
on the okay, so the last one, begentle with this one.
(22:40):
What about podcasting?
Does this do anything?
There was like an era of likeeverybody had a podcast and then
there was a die-op, and now I'mjust kind of I just sort of
lived through it.
Does podcasting do anything?
SPEAKER_02 (22:53):
I think you're gonna like my answer.
SPEAKER_03 (22:55):
Oh, good.
SPEAKER_02 (22:57):
Yes, I think the podcasting is is big.
Um mainly for authoritybuilding.
And if you are doing you know,local ads, audio ads, radio type
of ads that you can put on, youknow, pop up podcasts within a
certain radius, I think thatalso helps.
Um so yeah, definitely.
(23:19):
Because podcasting, you know, Imean anybody can say what they
want about it.
I like it, but it is somethingthat is updated regularly.
It's definitely weekly.
We have you know daily types ofpodcasts, and it stays relevant.
And if you're an ad or a snippetof something that props up in a
(23:43):
podcast, you're doing good.
SPEAKER_01 (23:44):
Yeah, it's such an interesting one.
It's the uh what really sold meon podcasting initially, and
what's so fascinating to meabout it is that it can demand
attention for so long, which isyou I mean, when we look back on
what we were just talking about,we talked about bounce rate,
we're talking about threeseconds.
(24:05):
Our intro is three and a halfseconds or four seconds.
It's like we don't even say thetitle until we're four and a
half seconds in.
And if people are listening tothis, they're gonna be, you
know, 23 minutes in.
And I think that's reallyinteresting that like it's one
of the few mediums that you'llactually engage with for very
(24:26):
long amounts of time.
And I think that there issomething to be said about the
authority building, but I don'tknow.
I I'm just doing this because noone's told me to stop yet and I
enjoy it.
But at the same time, I haveseen a lot of podcasts that I
really enjoy come and go.
And I sometimes wonder ifthere's like a, you know, a
(24:46):
strategy behind those kinds ofthings, or if they just kind of
like lost their luster for it.
I don't know.
It's uh it's an interesting one.
SPEAKER_02 (24:53):
Yeah, I don't know.
I mean, it is I, you know, I'm aregular podcast listener to a
lot of different things, but uhI don't know.
Yeah, after 2020, that was likethe big boom.
SPEAKER_01 (25:04):
Yeah.
Do you have any uh do we haveany clients that have podcasts?
So this is just me like kind oftalking out my ear.
SPEAKER_02 (25:11):
Yes, actually.
Um David Douglas has a podcast.
Oh, really?
Uh Doug.
SPEAKER_03 (25:19):
Yeah, oh cool.
SPEAKER_02 (25:20):
I'm not, I don't, I'm forgetting.
Forgive me, Doug, if you'relistening, but I'm forgetting
his his podcast name at themoment.
But I do know he has a podcastevery week, I believe, which is
really cool.
SPEAKER_01 (25:32):
A century of legacy and luxury.
That's the one.
Very cool.
SPEAKER_02 (25:36):
There it is.
Because they're 100 years thisyear.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (25:39):
Oh, how cool is that, man.
And yeah, it looks like they gota couple episodes in there.
Um, yeah, 15 episodes.
Neat.
I'll have to check that out.
Yeah, it's just like one ofthose things.
If I if I had a jewelry store,man, I'd I'd probably I'd
probably do something, maybemonthly, but it's easy for me to
say.
Um, when it comes to all thiskind of stuff, it seems like
things are changing all thetime.
(26:00):
I sometimes wonder if uhjewelers get are hesitant that
the they'll invest intosomething.
For example, they put all theirstock into building great
landing pages, and then in ayear it won't be as relevant
anymore.
Is that a real concern, or doyou think that there is some
lasting effect for these thesethings uh beyond just like the
(26:23):
the short-term gain?
SPEAKER_02 (26:24):
I think there is some definite lasting effect um
across the board because how youknow, obviously things change
quite quickly, but there aresome things that move slowly.
Like obviously, you know, wetell our clients on the website
update you know your website fora refresh probably every two,
(26:45):
three years just to kind of keepthe design up to date.
Again, that's kind of that'slasting in today's day and age,
especially on digital.
So um, you know, fear not.
If you're putting a ton of workin to landing pages, it is
definitely still relevant.
It is definitely still outthere.
SPEAKER_01 (27:04):
Awesome.
Well, and hope if people want tolearn a little bit more um from
you or uh maybe sign up for somemarketing activities for their
website, uh, where can theyreach you?
SPEAKER_02 (27:13):
Hope at punchmark.com.
And there is also a marketingconsultation page on
punchmark.com that you can lookover our stuff and book a
consultation with me.
SPEAKER_01 (27:25):
That's amazing.
Well, thank you so much, Hope.
And everybody, thanks so muchfor listening.
We'll be back next week,Tuesday, with another episode.
Cheers.
Bye.
All right, everybody.
That's another show.
Thanks so much for listening.
My guest this week was DigitalMarketing Manager at Punchmark,
Hope Belair.
(27:45):
You can learn more about Hopeand the marketing program at
Punchmark by going topunchmark.com and booking a free
marketing consultation.
This episode was brought to youby Punchmark and produced and
hosted by me, Michael Burpel.
This episode was edited by PaulSuarez with music by Ross
Cockham.
Don't forget to rate the podcaston Spotify and Apple Podcasts,
and leave us feedback onpunchmark.com slash loop.
(28:06):
That's L O U P E.
Thanks, we'll be back next weekTuesday with another episode.
Cheers.
Bye.
Welcome back everybody to In the Loop.
What is up everybody?
My name is Michael Burpo.
Thanks again for listening to Inthe Loop.
So this week I'm having on HopeBelair.
She's the digital marketingmanager at Punchmark.
And we have seen a lot of changein the marketing world in the
last, I mean, year, but alsonine years at Punchmark.
(00:24):
And this time I'm checking in on10 marketing, I guess,
techniques or tools.
And I'm asking Hope, do theystill matter?
And she is very honest andexplains uh what matters these
days in the world of marketing,everything from hashtags to AEO
and even podcasting.
So everybody, please enjoy.
SPEAKER_00 (00:50):
This episode is brought to you by Punchmark, the
jewelry industry's favoritewebsite, platform, and digital
growth agency.
Our mission reaches way beyondtechnology.
With decades of experience andlong-lasting industry
relationships, Punchmark enablesjewelry businesses to flourish
in any marketplace.
We consider our clients ourfriends, as many of them have
(01:10):
been friends way before becomingclients.
Punchmark's own success comesfrom the fact that we have a
much deeper need and obligationto help our friends succeed.
Whether you're looking forbetter e-commerce performance,
business growth, or campaignsthat drive traffic and sales,
PunchMark's website andmarketing services were made
just for you.
It's never too late to transformyour business and stitch
(01:32):
together your digital andphysical worlds in a way that
achieves tremendous growth andresults.
Schedule a guided demo today atpunchmark.com slash go.
And now back to the show.
SPEAKER_01 (01:50):
What is up, everybody?
I'm joined by uh Hope Bel Air,digital marketing manager at
Punchmark.
How are you doing today, Hope?
SPEAKER_02 (01:57):
I'm doing well.
How are you?
SPEAKER_01 (01:58):
So well.
Uh I'm excited to get a chanceto talk with you.
You went off to JCK.
Sounds like it was a great time,the land of uh, you know, dry
air and gambling.
And then uh you had a lot ofgreat conversations about
marketing.
It seems, at least to me, thatmarketing is kind of going
through this um real shift, thismetamorphosis right now.
(02:20):
Um, can you just give me, justgive me an idea?
What is the lay of the land whenit comes to marketing?
It seems like some things uh oldtechniques are kind of falling
out of favor and new techniquesaround AI are starting to get
picked up.
SPEAKER_02 (02:31):
Yeah, definitely.
You know, what you kind ofmentioned here with AEO, AI
engine optimization on the rise,and all new LLMs coming into
play, marketing is definitelychanging because not only do we
not or want to rather rank onGoogle, we want to rank on Chat
GPT, Claude, and other, youknow, LLMs that are ranking
(02:56):
jewelry stores type of thing.
So when someone puts a questionin to AI, we want to make sure
that we're there as well as ourtraditional SEO and our social
media and our Google reviews, etcetera, et cetera, et cetera.
SPEAKER_01 (03:10):
Yeah.
Well, so I picked 10 topics, 10marketing things over the years.
And I wanted to ask, do theseeven still matter anymore?
And I want you to be totally,don't be biased on this one.
Let's let's let's give it to thepeople what they want to know.
Because like I've been withPunchmark for nine years, just
(03:31):
already nine years.
Um and what what's interestingis like back in like 2018, we
used to do like social media forsome of our clients.
And it was like a real pain inthe neck, but it was all about
like building this social mediafollowing.
And like we used to researchhashtags and like which ones
were good.
Um, now I don't even thinkthat's like really worth your
(03:51):
time a lot of the times.
Now there's like other stuff,but you can also tell me that.
So um maybe we'll do 10, 10topics on is this even worth it?
And then we can kind of expoundupon it.
Um, how's that sound?
SPEAKER_02 (04:03):
Sounds perfect.
SPEAKER_01 (04:04):
All right, here we go.
Doesn't matter.
SEO ranking for like searchengines, like Google.
SPEAKER_02 (04:11):
Absolutely, definitely still relevant
because at the end of the day,right, if you ask a question
into Google, obviously you'regonna get that AI generated
summary off the top.
However, if you're still lookingfor, let's say, a Garnet
necklace and you just put inGarnet necklace, AI has nothing
to do with that.
(04:32):
So that is going to be yourtraditional SEO.
That is going to be how are yourproducts title tagged, mapped,
categorized, and described onyour website to make Google
happy and make the visibilityall the much more better, as
well as shopping products on thetop of the Google search bar for
the shopping organically.
(04:53):
That is again SEO and especiallyproduct SEO.
So that is definitely stillrelevant.
SPEAKER_01 (05:00):
Yeah, it seemed like uh SEO was about pages and a
website ranking back in the day.
And now it's almost like youwant to have certain things
rank, like you want yourproducts to rank higher, and you
want your um, you know, yourabout us to rank higher.
And it's not necessarily like Ijust want my homepage to be at
(05:22):
the top.
It's like I feel like it'salmost like the products are
more niche kind of rankings.
It's it's sort of interesting.
SPEAKER_02 (05:28):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Now with the introduction ofe-commerce online and all that
fun stuff, you know, some peopledon't need to come into the
store to find what they want.
And that's where SEO is stillmassively in play.
SPEAKER_01 (05:41):
Nice.
Now let's do the other EO.
AEO, does this still matter?
I feel like there's a lot ofchanges in the in the AI world.
Uh, I can't even keep up withthem.
Other people are just totallydialed in, and it's like a
full-time job for them to stayon top of it.
Where does AEO even fit in?
Is it the whole the whole hog atthis point?
SPEAKER_02 (06:02):
Right now, it it definitely is, I I think still
in its growth phase.
So obviously, depending on whoyou talk to, as far as AI bros,
I guess, if you will, too.
Um, it depends on it depends onif you think that the bubble is
going to pop or if it's going totake over, type of thing.
(06:22):
Right now, it's still in thatgrowth phase where we're not
really sure, and there can't be,you know, either answer isn't
necessarily 100% right.
So right now, absolutely forquestions regarding engagement
rings and questions aboutfashion jewelry, the difference
between 10 karat, 14 karat, therest type of thing.
(06:43):
Informational news andinformational facts about
jewelry, your website, yourstore is definitely prevalent at
the moment.
So, yes, AEO is definitely upthere.
SPEAKER_01 (06:57):
And we just launched some exciting AEO tools.
So everyone check that out.
They're all on our blog.
So, all right.
What about this one?
Here we gotta we're gonna getoff the off the beaten track.
Let's get into this one.
Social media following doesn'tmatter at all.
SPEAKER_02 (07:12):
Hot take potentially, hot take alert, but
no, it doesn't necessarilymatter.
Virality is the thing thatmatters more right now,
especially on TikTok.
Um, you could have 50 followerson TikTok and get a video with
over a million views, dependingon you know what kind of hot
(07:35):
topic or you know what kind ofvideo you're putting out there.
And from there, you know,obviously people are going to
recognize your name, dig alittle deeper, and maybe they
will follow you thereafter, butit's not necessarily a necessity
at this point anymore.
SPEAKER_01 (07:49):
It's really, I mean, right on that topic, you're
you're saying having somethinggo vir uh viral.
Uh just yesterday, this ishappening in my hometown.
Uh, there's a little gift cardshop in my hometown called
Heartwood Studios.
Um, I have some of my workthere, and they just had a
Instagram reel pop off for um,it's it's currently at like
three and a half million viewsor something like that.
(08:10):
Like it doesn't really make anysense.
They painted their um theirstorefront in like one of their
doors kind of fun, and it justwent crazy.
Uh, they gained like 2,000 newfollowers off of it directly
from that reel.
They're all like really excitedabout it.
Uh, but it's also kind of like Iwonder if it'll convert to sales
in any way.
Um I don't really know if itdoes, but I think it's kind of
(08:34):
more along the lines of uh I'vealways considered it a vanity
metric.
Um, and it's like what can youdo to activate your your
followers beyond that?
So um, yeah, that's interesting.
SPEAKER_02 (08:44):
Yeah, I think in the case of a gift card shop too, I
think it'll be more of adestination to go to.
SPEAKER_01 (08:50):
I agree.
SPEAKER_02 (08:51):
Once it's viral, you're like, oh, I want to go
there.
SPEAKER_01 (08:53):
How about this one?
This one used to be a hot topicback in like 2018.
Bounce rate.
This is like when people go toyour website and they uh leave
after, I think it's within threeseconds or five seconds, I
forget what the actual cutoffis.
Does bounce rate matter anymore?
SPEAKER_02 (09:10):
Not as a major KPI.
So instead of bounce rate, wenow like to look at engagement
rate because they can stay on,let's say, right, someone clicks
on an ad or your Google rankingon your website gets to the
landing page and opens up thelanding page and then gets
diverted.
(09:30):
Let's say they were with theirfriend, they're gonna now talk
to them for two minutes, andthey're you know, your landing
page is technically not bouncedbecause she didn't leave, right?
But the phone's still open, thelanding page is still on there,
and now the timer is ticking,right?
Two minutes, but she hasn't doneanything.
So now what we're looking at isengagement rate.
(09:52):
They opened it, and then what dothey do on that page?
Did they click on shop now?
Did they click on book anappointment?
Did they, you know, go ahead andvisit multiple different pages
on your website?
Because that at the end of theday is more beneficial to know
than let's say if someone cameon your website and dipped
within three three seconds, orif they stayed on two minutes
(10:14):
and didn't do anything.
So what we need to know is um,you know, what did they do when
they got to the landing page?
Did they get their scroll,realize it wasn't for them, and
leave?
Okay, you know, maybe we cantrack that and and look into
that a little bit more.
But maybe they got there and youknow, honestly, the the younger
generations are quite quick onlanding pages nowadays.
(10:36):
Three seconds, you can get a lotdone.
SPEAKER_03 (10:39):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (10:40):
So I guess that would technically be a bounce,
but because they said, hey,let's shop now within that
three-second mark, it'stechnically not a bounce, and
the engagement rate goes up.
SPEAKER_01 (10:51):
That's uh it's a just a different way of looking
at it.
And I I think I agree with you.
Uh, bounce rate also had to do alot with uh do you have a
pop-up?
And if you had a pop-up, man, ittanked your engagement rate.
Yeah, I I'm just not a fan ofpop-ups in general, but I can
see the utility of them.
We even use pop-ups occasionallyinside of site manager because
(11:11):
they are effective.
But I will say, uh, yeah, whenwe used to look at bounce rates,
I wasn't, it didn't see itseemed like we were missing
something.
Okay, let's do this one.
Emails, open rates, subscribercounts.
Does anybody even read themanymore?
I don't even know if people readmy emails anymore.
What do you think as far as amarketing tool?
SPEAKER_02 (11:34):
So this one's a little bit gray for me.
Yes and no.
The open rate, if you're above30%, you're doing great.
If it's under 30%, there aresome, you know, benchmarks and
things that we we can look at toreally move forward with.
Subscriber count, it doesn't, itdoesn't necessarily matter.
(11:56):
So obviously, with segments andlists and your different
clientele uh in your store, youwant to make sure obviously that
you're not bombarding them andthen every email that comes
their way is kind of a littlebit more special and tailored to
their lifestyle or where they'reat in their in their life.
(12:16):
But as far as you know, generalum subscriber count or open
rates, not necessarily the bestmetric to look at as a whole.
SPEAKER_01 (12:28):
We're, I mean, it's no secret.
Punchmark is actually doing alot of research into uh finding
ways that we can communicate,not just in emails.
Uh emails work great for, Idon't know, probably like 30 to
50% of our client base.
But then like we'll send like alot of this information that is
it is important, and it's justcan't guarantee an open.
(12:51):
So we either have to send a lotof emails, which annoys people,
or we have to send it uh througha different channel.
And we're looking at, you know,communicating with our clients
via text.
Um, I don't know, it's just it'sa weird one.
It's so antiquated, but at thesame time, it seems to be the
gold standard of business.
So what do I know?
I guess.
But all right, everybody, we'regonna take a quick break and
hear a word from our sponsor.
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(14:47):
And we're back.
Let's talk about this one.
Facebook.
And I mean the big blue app,like the actual Facebook.com
doesn't matter at all.
I don't know what you do onFacebook anymore.
Besides make events, actually,is the only thing it's good for.
SPEAKER_02 (15:05):
Well, I'm gonna ask you this Facebook as in, and
this is separate from Instagram,but Facebook as in putting ads
on Facebook or posting toFacebook.
SPEAKER_01 (15:17):
I think both.
Do either of those work?
They do.
SPEAKER_02 (15:21):
So ads would work for your older audience.
Let's think 50 plus estatevintage milestone anniversary
folks, that is what would workon Facebook ads specifically.
If you're looking at anything 50and under, definitely go towards
Instagram, TikTok, the works.
(15:42):
Now, as far as organic posting,Facebook is interesting in that
it is a nice thing to engageyour following list there.
So, like let's say you have anevent, like you said, going on
in the store.
You create the event, you createa post surrounding the event,
and then what you can do in yourcomment section is tag at top
(16:04):
fans, at everyone in that page,in that group, so that they can
engage and kind of look at oh,okay, hey, this is going on at
XYZ jeweler.
I'm definitely interestedbecause it's right up my alley.
Let me put in interest type ofthing.
As far as your general, like,you know how on Instagram
(16:26):
obviously you're posting,congratulations to this couple
for getting engaged with um, youknow, my diamond type of thing,
or um other kind of in-storepromotionals or or funny kind of
reels and stuff like that.
Not necessarily super prevalenton Facebook.
Um, but yeah, that is also justmy take as well.
SPEAKER_01 (16:49):
Man, it's I don't understand the utility of
Facebook anymore.
It used to be the end all beall.
And now I think all of thegoodness of it is just on
Instagram.
But I will say, dude, InstagramShop works for me.
I I just bought something off ofit recently.
I bought a piece of jewelry.
I'll tell other people it it'sreally exciting.
Um, I got for as a gift theselittle dangly earrings and
(17:14):
they're little pocket knives.
Have you ever seen they're likesharp, but like uh they're kind
of cool.
They're like folded up andthey're really, really
beautiful.
Um, but when you can take themout and you can open them up and
they're little knives.
But I saw them on a Facebook ad,and uh, you know how the
retargeting goes?
I was like, wow, I love these.
And um, so there you go.
I guess Instagram's still stillcollecting dollars off of me.
(17:34):
There you go.
Next one.
What do you think about blogs?
Uh, like writing long formcontent, posting it to your
website.
What's your thoughts on blogs?
SPEAKER_02 (17:46):
Definitely still relevant, and this also circles
back to AEO.
So, not necessarily thequantity, because remember in
the old days it would be likepump out as many blogs as you
possibly can to get as muchinformation out there for SEO
purposes, etc.
etc.
Now, less blogs, we don't needto go crazy, and more
(18:08):
informational, again, kind ofFAQ style bullet points
information.
That is what's going to do well.
And again, that's what feeds AIthe you know parameters of what
your store does and all therest.
So, yes, in my opinion, it isdefinitely still relevant.
SPEAKER_01 (18:30):
Yeah, I think that the blogs are just one of the
most direct ways to print andshout the source of uh truth out
into like the world.
Um, you can do it peripherallythrough like you know other
types of posting content and uhyou know having lots of content
geared towards that on yourpage.
But I think in the end, havinglike a some good blogs that
(18:52):
really that are written by ahuman, especially, uh, I do find
is useful.
We're trying to do it atPunchmark.
I will just say it's just verymanual sometimes.
It feels very uh archaic uh atsome points where I'm just like,
wow, or really, I'm stillwriting this stuff and I've been
doing it for nine years.
It's like, huh?
Well, I guess that's what that'swhat gets uh the engines fed.
(19:14):
So all right.
On the same topic, maybe um morearchaic and I but still useful.
What are your thoughts onreviews?
I I would probably say Googlereviews because those are the
only ones that I really careabout.
But what do you think aboutFacebook reviews also?
SPEAKER_02 (19:30):
Definitely still relevant.
That is honestly the bread andbutter of a lot of the jewelers
that I talk to.
Reviews are huge.
Um so if you're getting reviewsoften, and even if you lose
reviews, because that doeshappen to some clients sometimes
where Google will removereviews.
(19:51):
And again, that's you know howyou rank organically.
It has a lot to do with peoplecoming into the store because
they saw, oh, everybody's beenso you know, welcoming here, or
they said nice things, blah blahblah.
That is definitely um a metricthat matters.
Even for instance, I had a storeonce, I saw that someone had
(20:13):
left a 2.5 star review and it itaffected their their business
from there and it had you know,type of thing.
So it's like definitely stillrelevant.
I I know it might sound archaic,but definitely, you know,
relevant for jewelry stores.
SPEAKER_01 (20:30):
Yeah, it's not on my list, but does Yelp matter at
all anymore?
Is that is that a thing?
SPEAKER_02 (20:37):
So it definitely does.
I mean, there's some people thatstill use Yelp.
I mean, if you want to look atreviews on Yelp, they can be
hilarious.
Our sales manager and I, Thomas,at one RJO show about two years
ago, were dying laughing over arestaurant's review.
SPEAKER_03 (20:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:57):
On Yelp.
And you know, it can be fun ifyou just if as a little social
media platform, if you want togo and look and and listen to it
or read it rather.
And uh, but it's not asprevalent, obviously, as Google.
SPEAKER_01 (21:10):
Yeah.
I look at the Google reviews, itdoes seem to give you a good
snapshot, but also sometimesit's like I can't really tell
the difference between 20reviews and 200 reviews.
You know, they're kind of allall the same thing at a certain
point to me.
So I guess once you run up thescore enough, to me, I'm like, I
think that there's diminishingreturns, but uh maybe that's
(21:31):
just me as like a shopper.
Um, I don't know anything aboutthe actual business of it.
But on the same kind of uh era,I guess.
I mentioned it before.
What do you think abouthashtags?
Do they matter?
I don't think they matter.
SPEAKER_02 (21:47):
They don't matter.
They're great for categorizationat this point, but growth?
Not really.
Nope.
SPEAKER_01 (21:54):
Yeah, I think that one is it used to we used to
back in the day.
Remember when Instagram used tolet you put 30 hashtags on every
post and used to have to like goin and comment on your post and
dump all your hashtags in there.
Oh my gosh, it was like somanual.
I had like a copypasta and likea notes doc that I'd have to
paste in.
And that seemed like itmattered.
(22:16):
But now on Instagram, you can'teven follow your uh you can't
even follow hashtags anymore.
You used to.
So like I used to followwatercolor, which was like a
really nice one because you seewatercolor from all over.
But now uh I'm just notconvinced they do anything.
No, no, for hash or forcategorization again, yes, but
on the okay, so the last one, begentle with this one.
(22:40):
What about podcasting?
Does this do anything?
There was like an era of likeeverybody had a podcast and then
there was a die-op, and now I'mjust kind of I just sort of
lived through it.
Does podcasting do anything?
SPEAKER_02 (22:53):
I think you're gonna like my answer.
SPEAKER_03 (22:55):
Oh, good.
SPEAKER_02 (22:57):
Yes, I think the podcasting is is big.
Um mainly for authoritybuilding.
And if you are doing you know,local ads, audio ads, radio type
of ads that you can put on, youknow, pop up podcasts within a
certain radius, I think thatalso helps.
Um so yeah, definitely.
(23:19):
Because podcasting, you know, Imean anybody can say what they
want about it.
I like it, but it is somethingthat is updated regularly.
It's definitely weekly.
We have you know daily types ofpodcasts, and it stays relevant.
And if you're an ad or a snippetof something that props up in a
(23:43):
podcast, you're doing good.
SPEAKER_01 (23:44):
Yeah, it's such an interesting one.
It's the uh what really sold meon podcasting initially, and
what's so fascinating to meabout it is that it can demand
attention for so long, which isyou I mean, when we look back on
what we were just talking about,we talked about bounce rate,
we're talking about threeseconds.
(24:05):
Our intro is three and a halfseconds or four seconds.
It's like we don't even say thetitle until we're four and a
half seconds in.
And if people are listening tothis, they're gonna be, you
know, 23 minutes in.
And I think that's reallyinteresting that like it's one
of the few mediums that you'llactually engage with for very
(24:26):
long amounts of time.
And I think that there issomething to be said about the
authority building, but I don'tknow.
I I'm just doing this because noone's told me to stop yet and I
enjoy it.
But at the same time, I haveseen a lot of podcasts that I
really enjoy come and go.
And I sometimes wonder ifthere's like a, you know, a
(24:46):
strategy behind those kinds ofthings, or if they just kind of
like lost their luster for it.
I don't know.
It's uh it's an interesting one.
SPEAKER_02 (24:53):
Yeah, I don't know.
I mean, it is I, you know, I'm aregular podcast listener to a
lot of different things, but uhI don't know.
Yeah, after 2020, that was likethe big boom.
SPEAKER_01 (25:04):
Yeah.
Do you have any uh do we haveany clients that have podcasts?
So this is just me like kind oftalking out my ear.
SPEAKER_02 (25:11):
Yes, actually.
Um David Douglas has a podcast.
Oh, really?
Uh Doug.
SPEAKER_03 (25:19):
Yeah, oh cool.
SPEAKER_02 (25:20):
I'm not, I don't, I'm forgetting.
Forgive me, Doug, if you'relistening, but I'm forgetting
his his podcast name at themoment.
But I do know he has a podcastevery week, I believe, which is
really cool.
SPEAKER_01 (25:32):
A century of legacy and luxury.
That's the one.
Very cool.
SPEAKER_02 (25:36):
There it is.
Because they're 100 years thisyear.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (25:39):
Oh, how cool is that, man.
And yeah, it looks like they gota couple episodes in there.
Um, yeah, 15 episodes.
Neat.
I'll have to check that out.
Yeah, it's just like one ofthose things.
If I if I had a jewelry store,man, I'd I'd probably I'd
probably do something, maybemonthly, but it's easy for me to
say.
Um, when it comes to all thiskind of stuff, it seems like
things are changing all thetime.
(26:00):
I sometimes wonder if uhjewelers get are hesitant that
the they'll invest intosomething.
For example, they put all theirstock into building great
landing pages, and then in ayear it won't be as relevant
anymore.
Is that a real concern, or doyou think that there is some
lasting effect for these thesethings uh beyond just like the
(26:23):
the short-term gain?
SPEAKER_02 (26:24):
I think there is some definite lasting effect um
across the board because how youknow, obviously things change
quite quickly, but there aresome things that move slowly.
Like obviously, you know, wetell our clients on the website
update you know your website fora refresh probably every two,
(26:45):
three years just to kind of keepthe design up to date.
Again, that's kind of that'slasting in today's day and age,
especially on digital.
So um, you know, fear not.
If you're putting a ton of workin to landing pages, it is
definitely still relevant.
It is definitely still outthere.
SPEAKER_01 (27:04):
Awesome.
Well, and hope if people want tolearn a little bit more um from
you or uh maybe sign up for somemarketing activities for their
website, uh, where can theyreach you?
SPEAKER_02 (27:13):
Hope at punchmark.com.
And there is also a marketingconsultation page on
punchmark.com that you can lookover our stuff and book a
consultation with me.
SPEAKER_01 (27:25):
That's amazing.
Well, thank you so much, Hope.
And everybody, thanks so muchfor listening.
We'll be back next week,Tuesday, with another episode.
Cheers.
Bye.
All right, everybody.
That's another show.
Thanks so much for listening.
My guest this week was DigitalMarketing Manager at Punchmark,
Hope Belair.
(27:45):
You can learn more about Hopeand the marketing program at
Punchmark by going topunchmark.com and booking a free
marketing consultation.
This episode was brought to youby Punchmark and produced and
hosted by me, Michael Burpel.
This episode was edited by PaulSuarez with music by Ross
Cockham.
Don't forget to rate the podcaston Spotify and Apple Podcasts,
and leave us feedback onpunchmark.com slash loop.
(28:06):
That's L O U P E.
Thanks, we'll be back next weekTuesday with another episode.
Cheers.
Bye.
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