Essentially Human: On Sales and Salespeople ft. Peter Smith

Mike talks with Peter Smith about why selling stays “Essentially Human” even as AI and short-form content reshape how people pay attention. Along the way, we pull practical lessons from stories about music, used cars, pricing, and resilience that help you sell with more clarity and less anxiety.

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_01 (00:01):
Welcome back everybody to In the Loop.
What is up everybody?
My name is Michael Bourbeau.
Thanks again for listening to Inthe Loop.
This week I'm joined by PeterSmith.
I had Peter on earlier thisyear, and it was one of our best
performing episodes ever.
It was really well done.
And this time I'm having himback on to talk about his new

(00:22):
book, Essentially Human andSales and Salespeople.
It's a really interesting book.
It's broken it down into thesereally bite-sized chapters and
chunks, and each one kind ofcomes away with these takeaways
at the end of each chapter, andit really boils down to each
chapter.
And they're all these stories.
And he kind of takes thesereally not like far out, but

(00:43):
like far away from the jewelryindustry's stories, and then
pulls them back in and shows youhow you can learn about um sales
and selling.
And it's just a really coolconversation.
I could talk to him for hoursand I wouldn't get bored.
Uh really fun conversation.
I hope you enjoy.
Check out his book.

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And now back to the show.

SPEAKER_02 (02:17):
I'm good, Michael.
Thank you so much.
And uh it's a blast to be uh tobe doing a repeat session with
you.

SPEAKER_01 (02:24):
Yeah, we had you on earlier this year, and uh it was
a root we were talking alsoabout some of your writing
before.
Uh this was about a uh an onlineblog article that you had
written that I found verycompelling.
And then uh you had reached outand said, Hey, I just released a
book.
Um, and you're very gracious.
You sent me a copy and I got achance to read through it.

(02:45):
What struck me very uh very muchso is that the cover has the
Vitruvian Man, the very iconicillustration by um uh Leonardo
da Vinci, and one of my favoriteillustrations of all time.
Could you maybe just set up forthe people at home what it is
that you're covering in yourbook?

SPEAKER_02 (03:03):
Yeah, so I look, maybe I start with the Vitruvian
Man uh since you brought thatup.
Um there's a couple of things Idon't think about a lot while in
the process of writing a book.
This was my fourth book, and souh yeah, I've sort of been down
this road before.
And the couple of things that Idon't really think too much

(03:24):
about are the title and thecover, because you know, my
sense is we're gonna get to themwhen when when the right time
comes, the you know, the rightuh the right inspiration will
hit.
And in this case, as opposed tohiring squirrels or or or sell
something or the salesman, itthis was this didn't come until

(03:45):
very, very late.
I was actually starting to getto the point where I where I
where I'm thinking I might haveto uh to kind of force fit a
title and to force fit a acover.
And and almost not quite at thesame time.
This because essentially human,I I the that came to me um

(04:11):
really because of how inundated,and it's something that is
getting more so not lessinundated we are with
technology.
I mean, the every conversationit seems now starts or s or soon
incorporates AI, chat GPT, orit's clawed, and and you know,

(04:32):
no matter what we read and wherewe read it, people seem to be
talking about that stuff a lot.
And as I was going through thisbook, um it occurred to me that
one of the central tenetsthroughout the whole thing is
the impact of human beings.
Because, you know, when you whenyou're talking about

(04:53):
storytelling, uh for sure, andwhen you're talking about
psychology and you're talkingabout behavioral science, and
you're talking about consumerbehavior and all that stuff,
that central thread through thewhole thing is is people, and
and and at no point does that goaway.
And so essentially, human whenit hit, um, just felt like the

(05:16):
right title, and it felt likethe right time for that title.
And then the idea of thesubtitle on sales and sales
people, it kind of announceditself because um, you know,
when I wrote my first book, Iexpected it to be the to be the
last.
And then the second book was,oh, I've got all these
interesting columns that I'vewritten, and wouldn't there be

(05:39):
an interest?
Well, maybe it would beinteresting to have a sort of a
place for those and then youknow fill in the gaps.
And and then the third one, thesales minute, was was written
because I heard so often frompeople, especially retail store
owners, we can't get our peopleto read.

(06:00):
And and so, you know, I'd lovefor them to be reading this book
or that book of yours, but Ican't get them to read.
And so what I wanted to do withthat third book to just sort of
park it and give you the contextfor this one, was it was an
exercise uh for me that wasn'tvery pleasant because it was how

(06:20):
can we have a physically smallbook that on any given page only
has one a tip, and and and Icannot write any more than can
fit on a single page of a verysmall book physically, um, so
that it could be opened randomlyby salespeople.
So salespeople could open, youknow, page 30 or page 70, read a

(06:43):
tip in less than a minute, andput that tip into play, all many
of them, uh obviously uh basedon the behavioral sciences.
And so that wasn't fun to writebecause as an Irishman, I'm a
storyteller and you want to tellstories and you want to hear
stories.
And so that was that waswritten, I think, with a view to

(07:03):
now when people tell me theycan't get their people to read,
I'm I'm gonna be able torespond.
You don't need to have them reada book.
They can have a book and theycan reach into their drawer at
the beginning of the morning,randomly open the page, read the
tip, and put that into play thatday.
Sort of the essence of literary,you know, digestible bites, uh

(07:25):
if you will.
So this one, um this one I don'tthink there was unlike some of
the others.
I don't think there was a lightbulb moment where I said, I need
to write, you know, this book,this fourth book, essentially
human.
Um but I was drawn to, and I amdrawn to stories.

(07:47):
And so what happened was um overthe last few years, um, we've
probably talked about itpreviously, but my main uh um uh
role is is is uh consulting withwith vendors and suppliers and
brands.
And then I do some sales masterclasses as well, which have
evolved um over the years to benow sort of mostly half-day

(08:10):
off-site kind of situationswhere I get into what makes
great salespeople great and uhand what are the important uh
traits and behaviors, and thenmore importantly, what are the
um uh the psychologicalprinciples and the behavioral
science nudges that give them abetter opportunity uh to be to

(08:30):
be more successful.
And so as I was teaching thesesessions around the country over
the last few years, I wouldalways use stories uh to make
points because if you stand upin front of a group, forget
about three-hour sessions, whichis which is the norm for my
sales masterclass, but if youstood up in front of them for an

(08:51):
hour and you just recited factsand details and whatnot, you're
gonna lose people prettyquickly.
They're just you know gonna goaway.
Um you you may have seen one ofmy recent columns about brain
rot.
This brain rot was was the wordof the year from the Oxford
Dictionary last year, and nowthe American Psychological

(09:12):
Association this year had a lookat all these, you did a whole
meta-analysis uh on the effectsof our brains from this constant
consumption of short formvideos.
And so this whole idea of brainroads becoming a real thing, and
it's changing the wiring inpeople's brains to the extent

(09:33):
that you know paying attentionto anything for any significant
period is becoming ever moredifficult for all of us.
This is not a Gen Z or a Gen A,or it's a it's all of us.
Um, and and especially so, youknow, the idea of reading books.
But I uh was so intrigued by howimpactful telling stories was as

(09:56):
I uh conduct thesemasterclasses, that I just
thought it might be interestingto do a book where I collected
stories from other people.
Um ultimately I sort of writethe narrative and and you know
put whatever prose in it Ineeded to.
Um, but that I could collectstories for them from them on

(10:19):
sales and on salespeople and ontheir process and on you know
their journey, but everythingsort of related ultimately to to
their wiring and to theirability to influence positively
the sales process.
So I started collecting stories,I think, Michael, before I did
anything else.

(10:39):
And you know, then I'd get thestory.
Sometimes people would tell meover Zoom and I'd record it, and
then I'd write it up and send itto them.
Are you comfortable with that?
And you know, and then what Iwould do ultimately is begin to
find and insert the psychopsychology principles in each
story, you know, the lessons uhthat were that were gleaned.

(11:00):
So that's kind of where um youknow where that where where the
idea came from.
And so in some respects, it kindof grew organically, not
terribly fast.
Probably it took me longer towrite this book, which I say is
my fourth and last, and I'mgonna try to keep last keep into
that at this point.
But you know, you're doinghundreds of columns as well.

(11:23):
I'm always writing, and sothere's no uh it's not like I
feel like I have to write abook.
And it's a it's a challengingprocess.
I know we'll we'll sort of getonto it a little bit around
that, but yeah, but but but butyou know, taking these stories
and reading these stories andand and digesting these stories
from other people, and then justthings I would read in general.
I mean, I don't know if you readthe point or not.

(11:45):
I think it's it's quite early inthe book, but you know, it's
reading a biography of PaulSimon, the singer, the musician.

SPEAKER_01 (11:51):
Because there's a lot of a lot of stuff about
musician uh music in there, too.
That's how you actually open thebook, is you discuss how being
uh you know a singer in a in arock band uh is fundamental to
you being a salesperson, which Ithought was a a very interesting
connection.
Seems kind of like pretty faraway, but you tie them together

(12:13):
quite nicely.

SPEAKER_02 (12:14):
Well, I yeah, well, music is important to me.
I if you just even scan thebook, you'll you will see some
of that stuff.
But the the the surfaceimpression of what you just said
might be for listeners, oh,you're you're you're bold enough
to get up on a stage andperform.
Therefore, of course you'regonna be a good salesperson,

(12:35):
because uh if you can get up ona stage, you most certainly can
stand in a in a store or or infront of a client if you're if
it's not retail and perform.
And in fact, uh as you knowbecause you you read that
section, um, the point I wasmaking there was in that
particular situation, we used towrite our own material, right?

(12:56):
So we we would we would havethis was back in the sort of the
mid to late 80s, we would do allof the songs of the day, NXS and
REM and you know Brian Ferry andall that stuff.
But we would write our ownmaterial, and the longer we
would play, the more we wouldincorporate our own material.
And the the the what I found tobe similar was when we were

(13:22):
writing music, I couldn't helpbut see music everywhere.
I I'd be driving down the streetand I would see somebody, and I
would bring a line of lyric intomy head, and that single line of
lyric would turn into a song,and then probably within 24
hours, or certainly the nextband rehearsal, I'd have this
idea of what I wanted to do, andI'd start singing it, and we'd

(13:45):
start finding the chords, andall of a sudden we're rocking on
this song that didn't existuntil I saw this guy on the side
of the road, and something uhyou know sparked in me.
And the the behavioral sciencesand psychology and human
behavior, I see that now andhave done for for a few years.

(14:07):
You were mentioning uh before westarted about what a voracious
reader you are, and I Icertainly share that passion.
I I'm sort of a 50-plus book guya year.
And then when you're you knowI'm not I'm trying to.
Well, look, anybody who reads isreading books.
I mean, I I I give them credit.
It is yeah, I would say it'smore difficult on the one hand

(14:28):
to do it nowadays with the withthe the assault of of
technology, but it's also morerewarding because it takes us
away.
You know, so it takes so that sothat was kind of where the where
the music came from.
But the specific quote that Ithought was so interesting,
which is why I wanted to includeit in the book, was you know,
the the Paul Simon quote, wherehe talked about when he was had

(14:53):
just gotten started with ArtGarfunkel, you know, Simon and
Garfunkel, and they were out atsome photo shoot or some
recording session, but butsomething very, very early in
their in their in their in theirhistory.
And Art Garfunkel turned to PaulSimon at one point and made this
very dismissive comment.
He said, you know, no matterwhat happens, I'll always be

(15:14):
taller than you.
And the most people would justsort of, you know, let that sort
of go and and and put it down tomaybe a tad of insensitivity,
but not get too troubled by it.
The author asked Paul Simon, didthat really bother you?
And he said, it bothered meenough to where 60 years later,

(15:37):
I still think about it.
60 years later, he still thinksabout it.
Now, when I read that, Michael,I think about, and there's a
section in the book for thetraits of good managers, of good
sales managers.
And when you realize that aperceived slight can have that

(15:59):
kind of damaging impact on asalesperson or a member of the
team.
It doesn't have to be asalesperson.
I I read that and I go, wow, Ijust learned something really
powerful.
Yeah, cognitively we understandthat stuff.
Cognitively you're gonna say,look, of course, somebody is
gonna potentially have issueswith it with it with a slight or

(16:21):
a perceived slight.
What you don't think about isthe reality that here's somebody
who's world famous,multimillionaire, celebrated
alongside people like theBeatles and whatnot.
And yet he's still troubled asan 80-plus-year-old man by a
slight or a perceived slightthat his partner made when he

(16:41):
was a teenager or early 20s.
I mean, it's that's powerful tome.
So as I saw lyrics back in theday, I see the influence of
psychology and the behavioralsciences and can and consumer
behavior and traits and whatnot.
I see that everywhere now.
So I don't have to read, youknow, 50 books, 40 of them,

(17:02):
which are probably psychology inthe course of a year to know
that.
I literally see it absolutelyeverywhere.
So as I got these stories,collected these stories from
these people, Michael, I just Istarted to extract what I
thought were interestingpsychological lessons that were
true in all of them.

(17:22):
Uh, not just as a sort of anarrative and whatnot, but you
know, from from from the firstone, the the the the the brown
car, which was hilarious.
And the guy told me.

SPEAKER_01 (17:32):
That was going to be the one I I wanted to ask about
because it's so strange that youmention this whole section on
used car salesman.
And you start the you start theprocess of talking about used
car salesmen um seemingly kindof kind of negatively about
them.
Like, ah, you know, they havethis this uh appear, they have
this certain aura about themthat they're gonna try to rip

(17:54):
you off.
And there's even like uh a lawthat was passed, the lemon law,
about making it so that if theydo rip you off and you catch
them, then they they have togive you your money back
essentially.
And that doesn't really existfor, I think you use like for
like couches.
I thought that was reallyaccurate because and I was
thinking about it even morebecause I'm actually in the
process of trading in a car to aused car place and getting a new

(18:17):
one right now.
And it hit me pretty accuratelybecause first of all, you talk
about brown cars.
I don't know the last time I'veseen a brown car, and that's
that's very specific.
And the second thing is uh youwe work in, I work in jewelry
and we work in jewelry.
The the relationship between acar sale, a used car salesman,

(18:40):
and a jeweler with their shopperseems to be on the exact
opposite end of the spectrum.
On one, the the salesperson istrying to create an imbalance
where they can, that's where theprofit lives.
Whereas I feel like jewelers, Isort of think that the profit is

(19:01):
in everybody being very happytogether.
And it's almost like the profitis right in the middle, but they
reach it from the exact otherends of the spectrum.
I thought your uh your analysisis a very funny story about like
how they come in.
And uh and I I think it it mighthave either been your story or
someone else's story about howyou're like gonna go in and

(19:22):
you're gonna be like, no, thisis not a relationship building
moment.
I'm gonna take your, I'm gonnatake your uh your offer and I'm
gonna see if that's that.
And then before you know it, youbuild a relationship with them.
And I found that to be um veryinteresting.
I I've um could you kind ofexpand upon that idea?

SPEAKER_02 (19:40):
Yeah, so I I I think it's a it's a it's a it was a
great story, I think, for a lotof different reasons.
The first uh part was it was notintended to be the story he
submitted for the book.
So we were introduced by amutual friend, and and and he is
a car salesman, and as you pointout, that's probably the one
industry as much as any otherindustry where you know the

(20:03):
tropes exist and you know you'regonna get ripped off and blah,
blah, blah.
And and when I called the guy,um, I was immediately struck by
his laid-back style and thisthat his tone of voice, which is
a you know, huge thing.
We we we often hear aboutMoravian's communication model

(20:25):
where 38% is tone of voice.
Tim sort of exemplified that inthe extreme when when I was
having a conversation with him.
In other words, I was drawn tohim without having met him in
person, without knowing anythingbefore.
And, you know, I wantedsomething from him, right?

(20:47):
He I wasn't gonna buy a used carfrom him, and yet there was a
wonderful warmth there.
So if you think about just thatlittle quote unquote throwaway
story, you had sense of humor,which was which which is pretty
clear, you had tone of voice,you had which you were sort of
referred to on the continuingsort of car, because it's a car

(21:10):
theme, obviously, on that one,right?
Where I talked about then goingto sell a used car that I had,
and and as you mentioned, Iwalked into one situation.
In fact, it was a day, and Isaid, all right, no relationship
building here.
Whoever gives me the most,they're gonna get the car, and
I'm done.
I've no, I had no tolerance forfor dragging out this thing.
And if anybody went to see themanager, I'd be gone by the time

(21:32):
they came back.
It was just it was that kind ofa situation.
And I happened to go into, andit was one of the last, I think
I scared myself three.
I'd go to visit three.
I went in to see these two guys,and they were two Turkish
brothers or cousins.
I think they were cousins ofbrothers, I'm not sure which.
And they were very nice.
And I actually said to them,look, this we're not gonna be

(21:54):
building a relationship here.

SPEAKER_01 (21:55):
You're never gonna see me again.

SPEAKER_02 (21:57):
No, you're not.
I'm gonna I'm gonna either sellyou.
This car, or I'm not, and thenI'm gone.
And that's that's all there isto it.
And and um I said, I have acouple of offers, and I want to
know what you're gonna offer ifyou're interested.
And they they were interestedbecause the process now you can
you give people permission toreach out to you on the blue
book site and blah, blah, blah.
And they they reached out to me.

(22:20):
So the one guy said, Well, okay,I need to take it for a drive,
and off he went to take it for adrive.
And then the other guy and Istarted talking.
And you can imagine, you canimagine, even if people haven't
read the book, what uh whattranspires.
And you know, he's oh, I'mtaking my family to Dublin.
You're you're from Dublin.
We're gonna, where, where shouldwe go?
Now, I believe it was true.
It may or may not have been.

(22:42):
Even if it's not, I mean.
But by the time, you know, thecousin or the brother got back,
we had established enough of arapport, a warm rapport about
things that had nothingwhatsoever to do with cards.
Um, that I concluded if theywere even in the ballpark, uh,

(23:02):
they were gonna get the businessbecause it mattered to them, and
it didn't matter that much tome.
So, I mean, I wasn't gonna takea thousand dollars less, but and
so they came, they said, Well,we'll give you this, and I said,
Look, I'm already slightly abovethat.
And then I showed them a cardwhere it was written, which I
hadn't done previously, and theysaid, We'll match it.
And I said, Done, we'refinished.
And so, you know, as you getthese stories, and I was going

(23:25):
through these stories, therewere powerful, powerful lessons.
That one happened to be my ownstory, but it was sort of
connected to the brown car,which is not something we see an
awful lot of, and I think a veryfunny story in its own way.
And then there might have evenbeen another sort of vehicle

(23:46):
situation there.
Maybe um Richard Shot and theBritish psychologist, you know,
tells the story in there aswell.
So, no matter which of thesestories I looked at, I just
found that they were uhphenomenally rich in
psychological behavior.
And so, you know, I thought themultimately I collected enough

(24:07):
from her said, I think there's aI think there's a book in this.
And that's when they started toput it in.

SPEAKER_01 (24:11):
And I really enjoy how you have these uh takeaways
at the end of each each chapter.
Right.
Each chapter is is a story, andthen you, you know, you bring it
back.
And I I really enjoy how you youtry to, intentionally or not,
you try to go as far away fromwhat I expected as possible
sometimes, where yeah, talkingabout salesmen or talking about

(24:34):
talking about music, and thenyou bring it right back, and
then you hey, here's how you canlearn something from this.
Let me put it into real terms.
And then there's thesetakeaways, and there are these
like little bullet points, and Ifound it to be very digestible.
Uh is that kind of the result ofwhat you were talking about with
you know, making it so thatthings are as easy to pick up

(24:56):
and digestible as possible.
Uh, I would hate to theTikTokization of all media is
coming for us.
However, I do feel like whenpeople find a novel way of doing
it, like like with thesetakeaways, or sometimes with
like a little bit more briefstorylines, or even if it's just

(25:16):
like DIYs that I see online,sometimes they are short, but
like they cut out a lot of thefluff and like the background
story to things.
Is that do you think that thereis some benefit to people maybe
being more concise with theirwith their messaging, whether
it's in sales or instorytelling?

SPEAKER_02 (25:33):
I I think the answer is yes and no.
And and and and I say thatbecause it's it's really both.
So for instance, I'll give youan example.
I had a column this week inNational Jewelry on the on
branding, diamond branding, andand the origin of you know, how
we put a lot of um uh uh influ alot at stake on the whole idea

(25:55):
of origin.
And and um my sense, of course,is we're we're using origin as a
rationalization, and peopledon't buy it because of
rationalizations, they buybecause of emotion, and then
after the fact they they theythey rationalize it.
So I don't know how long,Michael, the story was.
I'm gonna guess probably 16 or1700 words, which would be a

(26:15):
good deal longer than let's sayanything I would do in store,
which about 500 words, or thejewelry book, which is the print
vehicle about 500 words, and andand Centurion uh is probably
around 500 words as well.
So you could say, well, what isthe argument?
Is the argument for more or isthe argument for less?
And the answer is both becauseyou do need, for me anyway, as

(26:36):
this as a storyteller, I do needsome platforms where you can get
into a little bit more detail.
And there are, I mean, I justleave in the column this week
the amount of emails that I'vegotten from people and LinkedIn
outreaches and you know, peoplewanting to talk about this or
that or the other.

SPEAKER_01 (26:55):
So there is an audience there for a longer form
uh that's why podcasting is sounique, in my opinion, is is one
of the few things where peoplewill give me 30, 40, 50 minutes
of their of their time and theirattention.
Whereas, like in on Instagram,if you ever look at your uh I
post reels, if you ever look atyour reel stats, it's like, oh

(27:18):
yeah, your average watch lengthis 11 seconds.
And it's like, and that's a goodone.
That's a that's awell-performing reel.

SPEAKER_02 (27:25):
But hopefully people are not watching reels while
they're driving, but they willlisten to a podcast while
they're driving.
You know, for me, I'll I'll goon walks, and depending on
whether I have the dog or I'malone, my my walks alone are
about an hour and a half.
I'm I'm gonna listen to a coupleof podcasts on those walks.
If I've got driving, I'm alreadylining up the podcasts I want to

(27:48):
listen to.
It could be a four-hour drive ora whatever it might be.
So I think that in somerespects, podcasts is today's
radio, right?
It's it's it gives us anopportunity to to just listen to
some things that are reallyinteresting to us in a manner
that we're captive anyway.
What else are we gonna do whilewe're walking?
We're not walking and writing.

(28:09):
You know, we can talk on thephone, obviously, but I think
that there will be a so anyway.
Look, on the column, it's you Iboth have the 1600 words, but
then I'll also extract a coupleof points from that column and
pop them onto places likeLinkedIn and potentially
Facebook and whatnot.
I'm not quite the Instagram guyI should be, um, to just make a

(28:32):
key point here or there.
And but I'll still put thecolumn on it and say, look, if
you want to learn more aboutthat, you can actually read the
column, which will take you afew minutes to read.
So I think it is both, but Ithink that we, and especially I
think about marketers now, ifyou're not fashioning your
content, and I don't carewhether it's digital or

(28:53):
billboards, you know, how manytimes do you drive by a
billboard, which are still bigin in cities, especially, and
there's so much stuff on thebillboard, you have no idea what
they're trying to say.
I mean, just no idea.
Or it's or it's the the so muchcopy that it's impossible
without killing yourself orsomebody else to read it.
So I think that when we're doingvideos now, when we're doing,

(29:14):
you know, whatever it might be,messages, even in stores, less,
not more, um, there is a strong,strong argument to to really
think about uh that paradox ofchoice, which we probably you
know talked about in our in ourlast session.
And that's the idea that ourbrains weigh, you know, two to
three pounds, but absorb 20 to30 percent of our body's energy.

(29:36):
The brain wants quick.
Wants quick and it wants now.
And and so we need to becognizant of that, I think, as
we as we uh as we do writewritten content or communication
in any way, shape, or form.

SPEAKER_01 (29:49):
Yeah.
All right, everybody, we'regonna take a quick break and
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(31:20):
learn how to book your buyingevent today.
Thanks, and back to the show.
And we're back.
But you know what?
What's really interesting,Peter, is this book finds me at
a really opportune time.
Uh I actually in doing somethingthat I have haven't had to do at
Punchmark in uh nine years ofworking here, is I am actually

(31:43):
going to have to do a salesproduct.
I'm gonna have to sell uh thisproduct that I've been very very
very focused on for the last uh16 or so months.
Um just to give like the theTLDR on it, is we built this new
platform for jewelry vendors towork with our retailers better.

(32:05):
And for the first time ever,we're going to charge them.
It used to be a free platform.
There would still be a free platuh version of it where we're
going to have, we're gonna havea paid version as well.
And I've been working on it withthe Ross, our CEO, and Brian,
our CTO.
And it's been like, it's been along time.
And now all the things are inplace.

(32:26):
We have the work getting done.
And now I have to have thesemeetings and have these sales
meetings with vendors.
And there's a couple of thingsthat are going through my head.
And my first one is actuallylater today at uh two o'clock
this afternoon, um, actually 230.
And it's with a vendor who Ireally respect.

(32:48):
And I am a little bit nervousabout it.
But maybe if I could just talkto you about what I, you know,
tying into your book, but alsowhat I've been thinking about.
One of the things I have donefor myself is I come from a user
experience background.
Um, that's actually, I'mdirector of user experience at
Punchmark.
And what UX, one of the thingsthat they do is they find it

(33:11):
nice to put people into a uh apersona, which is just a fancy
word for like a client bucket,as you might say.
And with personas, I find it isa nice way to kind of step out
of your own way and create thisnew kind of version of yourself.
And we've done this before.
We do this for our retailers, wehave personas that we place

(33:35):
people into, whether they knowit or not.
And this helps us tailor ourmessaging and things like that
to them.
Um and what I've had to do iskind of think of what is the
persona that I'm going topresent to our vendors when I go
to sell them this.
And I had to kind of think ofit, well, just like to, you
know, I guess talk through it.
One of the things I'm I'm doingis I'm changing my messaging.

(33:57):
I used I retailers always usedto be about uh we punchmark
portrays itself as very umapproachable and cool and modern
and young, all of these words wewe like to present ourselves as
very um likable, you know, whichis something that we think is a

(34:18):
real strength.
Whereas with this one, the thingthat's so interesting is that
the vendor relationship, I mean,you know this better than
probably anybody, the vendorsare it's you're doing B2B.
And then suddenly it's like youcan cut back a lot of frills.
So in preparation for thismeeting, and I'm about to do a
couple more next next week, is Isort of had to like change my

(34:42):
almost like my affect and makemyself someone else.
Does that kind of seem uh youmentioned that you can be a
maybe like a better version ofyourself when you're doing the
sales process, maybe morestreamlined, more likable, more
relaxed, all those things likeyou mentioned with the
salespeople.

(35:04):
Even if that's not their naturalway of being, do you have any
advice maybe when it comes tohow I should prepare myself for
this 230 meeting that's in justa couple of hours?
Anything that you might, youknow, give some advice to
someone that that has toactually do sales for the first
time in a while?

SPEAKER_02 (35:23):
Yes.
I I I first of all, it's I I'mnot sure if I mentioned it in
that book, but it certainlywould have been in one of the
books or or or in in maybe morethan one column.
You know, Daniel Pink uh uhwrote a book called he's better
known for Drive, his book Drive,but he's he is um he had written
a book called To Sell is Human.

(35:44):
And his whole take is we are allin sales.
You know, whether you're anattorney or you're a doctor or
you're providing any kind of aservice, we are all in sales and
we need to embrace that.
But there's there's so many umuh elements that you've touched
on, and I want to just complete,you know, speak to a couple of

(36:07):
them.
The first one is you you're aneminently sort of likable and
warm guy.
And so when you talk aboutbeing, you know, somebody else,
um I what I would caution isthat um because I don't want you
to m mistake what I might havewritten about or what I might

(36:28):
have said in terms of you can bea better version of yourself,
you can be a ver you can be abetter version of yourself to
the extent that if I read acolumn and something in that
column sparks something thatenables me to change a behavior,
I I'm better than before I readit.
I but but but I think you haveto be your own your own self.
You have to be authentic.

(36:49):
And so I think that thinkingabout yourself as a salesperson
is probably not the way to go.
Thinking about yourself as a guywho really understands UX and
really understands what a valuethat can be for the right
partners is infinitely betterthan thinking about yourself as

(37:11):
a as a as a salesperson.
Now, uh it might be semantics,but when I hear personas, uh I
what what what I think isprofile, and I think one of the
challenges with profiling peopleis we very often underserve them
because we in some respects inan untoward you know way, we're

(37:36):
kind of putting them in a box.
We're saying this guy can dothat and this gal can do that,
and what I would say is thinkbetter of them, talk about much
higher aspirations, because whatyou're really looking to do is
you're really looking to inspireand influence behavior, right?

(37:57):
And so I don't think puttingsomebody into, well, you know,
this would be a an A customerand this would be a B customer,
it's not what I heard from you,by the way, but this would be a
C customer until we knowabsolutely and definitively as a
consequence of their actions andbehaviors over an extended
period, it's we're never betterfor for for profiling customers.

(38:22):
Um, and so I would be carefulabout that.
Um, and I think it also notprofiling them reminds you of
two of the really, reallyimportant things in in sales and
in life, period, and that's tolisten and to listen without
judgment, because it's amazingwhat you can hear, it's amazing

(38:42):
the gifts they can give you,Michael, if if you're really
listening to them, because andif it's on on on video, uh
that's even better because youcan see the body language and
you can see what the reaction isto things said and the things
not said, and and and andconversely, when they're telling

(39:03):
you about something, you'regoing to see things that you
otherwise you know might nothave seen.
So I I would say in a big, bigway to be your own authentic
self.
Now, there's a couple of morethings uh that I think I'd be
coaching somebody who, you know,uh there is actually one of my

(39:25):
sons is in the book who doesn'tknow he's in the book because I
didn't didn't talk about it, andhe's in uh in sales, and uh, you
know, he was making thispresentation, and and and I said
to him, I want you to give themthree options.
I want you to give the prospectthree options.
And he was telling me all thereasons why that wouldn't make

(39:47):
any sense.
And they said, Well, you go awayand figure out how it does make
sense, because what we know isthat we know that agency matters
to us as people.
Hugely important.
From the time we're toddlers,we're handling around the house
or the apartment.
We want to control theenvironment, pick up stuff,
throw stuff, climb on stuff.
So agency matters.

(40:08):
So giving them choices is huge,as opposed to here's what I
think a great deal for you wouldbe.
Don't go that route.
Here's three options I'm goingto give you.
And three is a magic number.
We don't want to have, you know,here's 10 choices, isn't that
great?
You know, think about goinginto, you know, I've used the

(40:29):
analogy many, many times, theCheesecake Factory, it's a
nightmare for me.
I mean, there's like a hundreddifferent options.
Now I go to a restaurant thathas five options, so I'm gonna
have a meal.
And the latter is much easierthan the former.
So I think there's a magic inthree.
And now what I would say is asyou think about your pricing,
you want to give, and you canuse your own sort of uh uh uh

(40:53):
metric on this, but in effect,you want to give it one choice
is a dollar, one choice is twodollars, and one choice is three
dollars.
Or that could be a hundred, twohundred, and three hundred, or
that could be a thousand, twothousand, and three thousand.
It could be ten thousand, twentythousand, and thirty thousand.
So, in other words, there's arelationship between those three

(41:13):
options.
The options that enable me to,okay, this is not overwhelming.
I uh he's up there's threechoices that I get to pick from.
There's really four, right?
One is no, thank you, butthere's three options if I'm
gonna make a selection.
And the what happens far moreoften than we can imagine, uh
65, 70 percent of the time, isgiving that option to people,

(41:37):
but giving it to them in a waythat's not overwhelming, which
is to say three, and thenputting that relationship of the
pricing in A, twice A, and thensplit the difference.
What we see is again and againand again people selecting the
middle option.
Again and again and again theyselect the middle option.

(41:58):
Think about your own behavior.
Do you want a small, medium, orlarge ice cream?
Do you want a small, medium, orlarge drink?
Do you want a small, medium, orlarge French fry?
That's not just happening insmaller consumables like that.
It's happening with vehicles,it's happening with diamonds,
it's happening with much biggerstuff.
It's use UX platforms, whateveryou want to you want to suggest.

(42:22):
The extremes, which is say thelow and the high, push me to the
middle.
I don't want to get the cheapestone because I might be missing
stuff out, right?
There's regret avoidance that'shappening there.
I don't want to have go back andsay, geez, could I have done
better on that?
I don't want to get theexpensive one because boy,
that's really expensive.
I will settle for the one in themiddle because that feels like

(42:43):
the right thing for me.
So I would say the two things, Imean, the authenticity is a
given.
You do you be you, uh, becausethat's what people respond to
more than anything else.
But when it comes to actuallypresenting, if you can find a
way to present three options,and those three options, there
is an actual relationshipbetween the prices.
Not one that's a grand and onethat's eleven hundred and the

(43:05):
other that's three thousand.
But you have a thousand, twothousand, three thousand, or a
hundred, two hundred, threehundred, or a dollar, two
dollars, three dollars.
That is powerful, powerfulstuff.
Yeah, and it works tremendouslywell in sales.

SPEAKER_01 (43:20):
I have a I have a real hard time.
I think that this might havesomething to do with my
upbringing as the I was theyoungest, uh, youngest son, and
I didn't I didn't usually get toask for certain things.
Uh, I usually just got what Igot, which is okay.
You know, you get what you get.
Yeah.
And uh exactly.
And I have a hard time withasking for for money.

(43:43):
Um, it's definitely something Ihave worked on for a long time,
but I am still not where I needto be.
And what's funny is I'veactually gotten better at it
with my own profession as a Ihave a side career as a
watercolor painter.
And what's funny is I I'vegotten over that.
And the reason why is because.
I know that the price is theprice because if they say no,

(44:05):
I'm busy enough as it is that ifthey say no, they're actually
doing me a favor because then Idon't have to do the project and
I can work on the other projectsI have as a backlog.
If they're paying it, it's like,okay, now I have to do the
thing.
The money is kind of like a anuh it's cause and effect.
Like the money comes from doingthe work.
When it comes to this, I havetoyed around and I hate using AI

(44:29):
all the time, especially in inhuman relationships.
But one thing I did is I gave mywhole speech.
I've done it several times.
Um I've tried to shorten it asmuch as possible so that it's a
little bit more digestiblebecause I'm, you know, I only
have so much time with thesevendors.
And one thing I've learned isthat uh, and I take the

(44:50):
transcript and I fed it backinto this bot that I have that's
very um tied into this project.
And I asked for feedback onthis.
And the one thing that they saidis that you you bounce, you
dance around the what the actualcost is too much.
You should act you should justsay it, you should stand on
business and and that's theprice of the price.

(45:13):
And it's so funny.
I have such a hard time justlike coming out and saying this
is the price.
When it comes to that, first ofall, do you have advice on maybe
mentally getting over thathurdle?
And the second one for you, justagain, I'm getting free coaching
as by being a podcast host, Iappreciate you.
Uh is it better to just lead, ornot lead, but like have it

(45:37):
earlier in the pitch and thenreiterate it at the end instead
of just kind of like keeping itat the end?
Because I sometimes feel likepeople don't even listen all the
way until they hear what theprice is, you know?

SPEAKER_02 (45:49):
Yeah.
So I I'm gonna tell you a littlestory and then I'm gonna come
back and answer a little bitmore directly.
Um, you have heard of the uh theartist Banksy.
We now believe that Banksy is ais a is a is a British guy, but
we didn't know previouslywhether it was a uh a woman, a
man, or a collection.
We didn't know any of thatstuff.

(46:10):
So you may have heard that uhBanksy did an experiment in New
York a few years ago.
Yes.
And uh did you ever heard aboutthat?

SPEAKER_01 (46:18):
Yes, where he sells the originals and people don't
believe that.

SPEAKER_02 (46:21):
And did originals, absolutely, and put them, I
don't know if it was inside thepark or outside the park or
whatever it might be.
But literally for a day or theguts of a day, Banksy did what
lots of people do in and aroundCentral Park on a Saturday and
put his original artwork up forit to be sold, and I think sold

(46:41):
either six or seven or eightpieces in the course of the
entire day.
So all of the thousands ofpeople that passed passed by
Banksy's work.
And of course, I doubt very muchBanksy himself, as we know now,
was there, but he was doing thissocial experiment.
And they could have bought thatartwork, and six, seven or eight

(47:02):
people did, for about sixtydollars.
Now, as we both know, I think heended up making$300 and some odd
dollars, having sold six orseven pieces over the course of
a day.
His work goes for tens ofthousands and hundreds of
thousands of dollars.
And yet, what was proven wasthat absent context, value

(47:24):
changes the whole thing, right?
The entire perception of valuechanges.
And what I would say to you whenyou're talking or anybody when
they're talking about sales, isyou cannot lose the context of
your space, your place, yourcustomer, the conversation, et
cetera, et cetera.
And so, in some respects, I meansay two things, and they're a

(47:44):
little bit sort ofcontradictory.
One is you lean into the priceand you feel very good about it.
This particular one is 5,000.
And you don't speak after that,because then it almost sounds
like you're justifying it,you're rationalizing it, you're
defensive.
It's just this one is 5,000.
Now, again, if you're going todeliver three, now, as you know
from what we've already talkedabout, that's a much, much

(48:06):
bigger thing.
But I think if you think aboutprice as a byproduct of
delivering something that theyare excited about, the question
becomes have you deliveredenough value around what that
thing is?
So one of the things I like tohear people ask in in sales and
in especially retail, but sales,period, what's most important to

(48:30):
you?
Tell me what's most important toyou.
And then as they begin to unfoldthat, you're learning, learning,
learning.
And then you might say, if youif it hasn't come through in the
answer, tell me why.
Right?
So by the time you get to price,which we should never just lead
with because it has no context,there's no there's no value

(48:52):
proposition.
Take that same Banksy artwork,put it in a gallery, tell people
it's on sale today for$20,000each, and they'll be buying it.
But here you, they just peoplepassing by and they don't spend
$60 because it's on the railingof a Central Park.
So I think that when you askthose questions of potential
customers, what is mostimportant to you?

(49:14):
And you know, where are yourpain points?
And you know, how have youovercome this in the past?
And and then you use why a lot.
Tell me why, or tell me moreabout that.
You'll find that by the time youget to price, it's done.
Price is a byproduct of havingsolved a problem.
Or in you know, it's not alwaysa problem.

(49:36):
People don't come in to buy,let's say, uh uh fashion jewelry
to solve a problem.
They come in because there's uha multitude of other reasons.
My own brand building,reciprocity, because this store
has been so good to me over theyears, or or whatever the case
may be.
But you know, by the time youget to price, it's a non-factor.
And it should be a non-factor.

(49:57):
If you're starting with price,it almost comes across a little
bit as though you don't fullybuy into it yourself.
So I would say, you know, in acontradictory way, perhaps, lean
into it, which is to say, it ofcourse it's worth that, right?
To yourself.
Of course it's and if it wasn'tworth that, we wouldn't have
priced it at that.

SPEAKER_01 (50:18):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (50:18):
But sit that aside and have conversations about not
selling.
Here's what we have, here's whyit should be great for you.
Tell me how you solve thisproblem in currently or in the
past.
Tell me what would look what awin would look like for you if
you were to have this, that, andthe other.
And then if you can connect yoursolution, your product to that,

(50:40):
then the price is a byproduct.
And especially then if you cansay, look, as it happens, then
maybe you get back to them.
It's better than just sort ofdoing it in that first
conversation.
And if you get back to them thenwith three potential solutions,
each more advanced than theother, and three different price
points, I think you'll beshocked at how it'll it'll it'll

(51:03):
move the bar.

SPEAKER_01 (51:04):
Yeah.
Man, you give me a lot ofencouragement.
The thing that is scary to me,again, I I I appreciate the the
free coaching.
Um what is scary to me is I havenot yet sold one.
I haven't had this is going tobe my first meeting.
And I, you know, booked thefirst one to be with um a vendor

(51:26):
I have a a lot of you know pastrelationship with and who I
think very highly of.
And I'm hoping to kind of buildthe snowball as I go with a few
other ones.
And what I find, I think thatthis could go very well.
I told my my bosses because theywere, they asked me, hey,
project how many of these do youthink you can sell?

(51:47):
And I was like, man, there islike a real chance we crush this
and we sell 20 of them or 30 ofthem or 50 of them.
There's also a really realchance we sell like four or or
or one.

SPEAKER_02 (51:58):
So can I challenge something there?
You know, when you say, andagain, I have a book called Sell
Something.
If you think about it in termsof how many of those will people
want to buy, as opposed to wewant to sell, because in some
respects, you turn it up on itshead and you're saying the you
know the solution as aconsequence of their

(52:21):
conversation is going to be soobvious that people are gonna
want to buy them.
Yeah.
And so I I just think thatthat's a better way to sort of
think about it.
And as I talk about people whowhat we're trying to do and what
we're looking to do is toinfluence and inspire buying
behavior.
Yeah.
And so I think that if you justchange your mind, your mentality

(52:43):
a little bit around that, you'retrying to influence and inspire
buying behavior.
Now you get to think about howdoes that happen?
How can I inspire buyingbehavior?
How can I influence that?
And that's where the rightquestioning and and especially
the open-ended tell me why, tellme what you're doing right now,

(53:03):
tell me what a solution wouldlook like for you, tell me
what's most important to you,why is that?
By the time you get throughthat, and you'll get better and
better and better as you dothis, um, you'll find that your
your your your batting averagewill be incredible.
I mean, your your battingaverage would be incredible.

SPEAKER_01 (53:21):
I would love to hit a couple home runs there, Peter,
but it's uh scary.

SPEAKER_02 (53:26):
Start with some walks and singles.
You cannot exchange a few.

SPEAKER_01 (53:29):
Oh man, I would love, I would love, uh, I'll
take a hit by pitch, even man.
I don't, I don't, I don't, Idon't mind at all.
Whatever gets you on the base.
Yeah, yeah.
I I'm I'm a team player, I'lltake a lump.
But I really appreciate it,Peter.
It's it's um, it really did comeat a really interesting time.
As I've been prepping for thisinterview, I've also been
prepping for uh these sales umopportunities.

(53:51):
And you can and I didn't evenput that together until like two
days ago when I was like, oh,this is uh we're almost talking
about the same thing.
It's exactly one thing you don'tuh talk about uh uh maybe
enough, or maybe in other books,is that it's like I think that
you're almost writing for peoplethat naturally will like go into

(54:13):
sales or are trying to improveat sales.
But what I sometimes don't thinkthat salespeople ever talk about
is that uh you gotta getrejected a lot of times.
And you also people have to sayno.
And what I always laugh is thatthere is definitely like some
like, you know, connectionbetween people who are
salespeople and people who arelike good at hitting on people

(54:35):
at bars, you know.
I think that people who are aregood um romancers.
And I think it's because of thefact that they can take
rejection better than most.
And I just found right now, whatam I afraid of in this in in my
upcoming sales call is I'mafraid they're gonna say no,
which is it's not gonna hurt me.

(54:56):
I mean, I have I have uh 73other shots at this, but at the
same time, what is it thatthey're gonna say like they
could say yes or no?
And or or you know, let me knowlater.
And I just kind of think um inthis book, the only thing I kind
of feel like that is um not thatI I didn't yet see is that I am

(55:20):
a little bit afraid.
And it's kind of like uh a very,I don't know, inspiring thing to
read a book where people aretrying to get better.
And I am just trying to start, Iguess.
And I thought it was a very uhvery inspiring thing.

SPEAKER_02 (55:37):
I I I have which I think would be worth revisiting
if you haven't read it, and ifyou have, uh if you have not, uh
certainly do it.
But there's a chapter in thebook on resilience.

SPEAKER_01 (55:49):
Resilience, okay resilience.

SPEAKER_02 (55:51):
I and I got I don't know if I have an early uh copy
of the book and maybe the actualcopy, it's not the same page,
but on this copy I have it's onpage 47.
But in any case, if you go tothe table of contents in the
book, uh you will see that thereis a chapter, uh, you know, it's
the the whole duo model for me,which is that you know, the
things that are so essential.

(56:13):
Just tell me what you have forchapter nine, if you have the
table of contents.

SPEAKER_01 (56:17):
Yes, I have it right here.
Uh chapter nine, yes, I do haveresilience, yes.
47.

SPEAKER_02 (56:22):
Okay, so so if you if you read that before uh uh
before uh your your call, uh I'mnot gonna say it'll fix the the
sensitivity that you have aroundrejection because uh that's tied
into as much the big fivepsychology traits as anything
else, but it would give it'llgive you some guardrails.

(56:44):
There's there's a there's asection in the book that says if
you're short in this or that,here are some things that you
can do to get better at it.
It's not gonna make you more youknow infinitely more resilient,
but it'll enable you to sort ofthink about resilience in a way
that's a little bit more fair toyou and to recognize that huge

(57:05):
numbers of people, uh, whetherit's not just sales, sports, uh
uh any competitive environment,huge numbers of people have
difficulty with rejection,right?
Because rejection in our brainsis a little bit like uh getting
punched in the head, right?
Neurologically rejection feels,I mean it really does.
That's not I'm not making thatup, that there's a neurological

(57:27):
effect of rejection, whetherit's a girlfriend rejecting you
or a school or a job or whateverit might be.
And so if you are sufficientlylow, have sufficiently low
reserves of resilience, you'regoing to have to overcome that
in order to be successful in asituation, any situation where
there's a lot of rejection.

(57:48):
It can be done.
You can put guardrails on it,you can get help with it, but
it's just something that youhave to work on constantly.
You don't, there's no pill thatsays, I have really, really bad
resilience, really lowresilience.
I'm gonna take this pill andwake up tomorrow, and I'm gonna,
I'm gonna be totally fine withhearing rejection and no, that's
not the case.

(58:08):
But you can teach yourself tosort of say, look, I'm aware of
it, I know it's there, I've gotto be conscious of it.
I've also got to recognizethey're not rejecting me.
This is not about me.
It's not a personal rejection.
That situation, such that it waspresented to them, is something
that they're not willing to bebe inspired by right now.

(58:30):
Let me go back and revisit howI'm doing this, but they're not
rejecting you personally.

SPEAKER_01 (58:35):
Peter, I really appreciate that.
I will read that right before myuh probably right after this,
and then that way I'm prepared.
Um, Peter, if people wereinterested in reading your new
book, Essentially Human, onsales and salespeople, where can
they go to uh learn more,purchase it themselves?

SPEAKER_02 (58:53):
So they can go.
There's a bunch of places, but Ithink the two most uh
oft-visited places are Amazonand BarnesandNoble.com, where
you can buy it.
Um and and of course, if theywant to contact me, uh LinkedIn
is probably the best place.
My email also, if anybody wantsit, is at theretailsmiths at
gmail.com.

(59:14):
So theretailsmiths at gmail.com.
And um let me know what theythink.
If if they read it and theyenjoy it, let me know what they
think.
If they read it and they don'tlike it, keep it to yourself.

SPEAKER_01 (59:27):
Yeah.
Well, Peter, thank you so much.
See, that's a sale right there.
I mean, uh you're just sellingselling on there.
Man, that's how it's done.
Uh I really appreciate yourtime.
It's really interestinglistening to you, especially um
as I'm on the cusp of doingsomething that I'm a little bit
intimidated on.
Uh, this comes at a great time.
Uh, I really appreciate yourtime.
Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 (59:46):
That made you growing.
Thanks for having me on,Michael, and uh really
appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 (59:50):
All right, everybody.
We'll be back next week,Tuesday, with another episode.
Cheers.
Bye.
All right, everybody.
That's another show.
Thanks so much for listening.
My guest this week was PeterSmith with Essentially Human and
Sales and Salespeople.
His new book.

(01:00:11):
It's really good.
Make sure you check it out.
I'll put the link in the shownotes below.
This episode was brought to youby Punchmark and produced and
hosted by me, Michael Burpo.
This episode was edited by PaulSuarez with music by Ross
Cochran.
Don't forget to rate the podcaston Spotify and Apple Podcasts,
and leave his feedback onpunchmark.com slash boot.
That's L-O-U-P-E.
Thanks, we'll be back next week,Tuesday, with another episode.

(01:00:33):
Cheers.
Bye.