March 24, 2026 • 35 mins
Michael talks with David Berdugo, CEO of Caratwise, about why custom jewelry sales break down when momentum stalls and how better UX helps independent jewelers give confident answers fast. We dig into transparency, real-time design, and the ring builder choices that turn “imagine it” into “see it now.”
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_02 (00:01):
Welcome back everybody to In the Loop.
What is up everybody?
My name is Michael Burpo.
Thanks again for listening to Inthe Loop.
This week I'm joined by DavidVerdugo.
He's the CEO of Carrotwise.
And Carrotwise is this newcompany that does these
incredible experiences forcustom engagement rings, and
(00:23):
they hope to expand to othercustom jewelry types.
We are working on an integrationwith CarrotWise at Punchmark,
and I've gotten to know Davidand his pretty impressive
background throughout the lastcouple of months.
And I invited him on to In theLoop to share his experience of
being COO of some prettyimpressive companies, as well as
(00:43):
how he takes that experience andbrings it to CarrotWise to have
the best experience possible forshoppers.
It's a really cool conversation.
I think that David understandsuser experience better than
almost anybody I've spoken to onIn the Loop.
And it's kind of veryinteresting to hear his
experiences throughout the yearsand how he kind of harnesses
that.
I hope you enjoy theconversation.
SPEAKER_01 (01:10):
This episode is brought to you by Punchmark, the
jewelry industry's favoritewebsite platform and digital
growth agency.
Our mission reaches way beyondtechnology.
With decades of experience andlong-lasting industry
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We consider our clients ourfriends, as many of them have
(01:30):
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Punchmark's own success comesfrom the fact that we have a
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It's never too late to transformyour business and stitch
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Schedule a guided demo today atpunchmark.com slash go.
And now back to the show.
SPEAKER_02 (02:17):
How are you, Michael?
How's it how's everything?
So well.
I'm so excited to get a chanceto speak with you.
We've been working together onthis uh ring builder project for
a little while that we're gonnaget into in a in a little bit.
Um when I learned about yourbackground, I was I was very uh
I was caught off guard.
It's uh it's a very impressiveuh resume that you've built for
(02:38):
yourself.
Can you kind of share with theaudience your background with
the jewelry industry?
SPEAKER_00 (02:42):
Sure.
Uh thank you for starting offwith a compliment.
Always makes me comfortable.
Uh so I'm David, I'm the CEO ofCarrotwise.
Uh and for almost a decade, Iwas the chief operating officer
of Blue Nell and JamesTalon.com,right?
And uh really my entire careerhas been about removing
friction, removing friction frompurchasing custom jewelry for
customers and removing frictionfrom delivering that jewelry
(03:05):
eventually to those customersmaking it easy to deliver.
It's all about the details.
And this is really theexperience that I grew up um uh
with, and this is what CaratWisedoes every day now.
SPEAKER_02 (03:16):
That's really interesting.
Talking about removing friction,that's one of those uh hidden
aspects.
I'm the director of userexperience at Punchmark, and all
that is just a fancy way ofsaying like we want to make it
as easy as possible for certaintools to be used.
And I always think like when youdo it right, I always think it's
like uh it's like swimming.
If you've ever used like areally good experience where
(03:38):
you're not thinking about thetools, it just feels very
natural.
When it comes to working in likea big company like like the ones
you just listed, those are many,many people.
Uh, what is it that you takewith you uh from like leading a
large group like that to leadingmaybe uh more of a startup?
SPEAKER_00 (03:56):
Honestly, it's not that different because really my
job is about details.
I I like to dive into thetransparency of the processes.
I like to really go into thedetails, dig into them, try to
understand what's happening.
And the truth is, custom jewelryis really hard to make.
It's really hard to make becauseyou make a promise in advance,
and then you now you need tofind a way to deliver.
Yes, it is difficult at scale,but at scale you have more
(04:18):
means.
But the truth that the thechallenge is similar between an
independent jewelry and thoselarge retailers such as Blue
Nell and James Allen.
And what we did at the time,really what we pioneered was
this transparency that webrought to the to the customer,
you know, the ability to designfreely, there was you know, no
pressure around you when you'rebrowsing on your website, alone,
at home at 2 a.m.
(04:39):
and on your cell phone, thatthat transparency that we
brought and the you know, theability to understand clear
pricing, visualization, thetimelines were super clear.
All of this gave confidence tocustomers to make decisions.
And when you add all of this,right, the price transparency,
the product, the timelineclarity as well, all of this is
what converts at the end.
And and this is really what BlueNell and James Allen uh drove
(05:01):
and and brought to our industry.
SPEAKER_02 (05:03):
It's quite fascinating when you discuss
like transparency at at the atthe heart of the matter, because
one thing I've I've talked abouta lot on on this podcast is um
like the the hidden cost and thelike the the ability to make
your your your juice.
And uh that's why I hate buyingcars, is because it's one of the
last industries where you'reallowed to like mark things up
(05:28):
and then like battle and likeyou don't know if you got a good
deal or not.
Maybe they won, maybe you won.
Uh with jewelry, it seems likethat is going very far away.
And there's a lot of uhbusinesses that are making it
their their model to be astransparent as possible, even to
where they source their diamondsfrom, the markup that they make
(05:49):
on the diamonds, like how theycan cut down the markup as much
as possible.
Is that something that you'retrying to is the transparency
part of the sales pitch?
Uh like coming forward andsaying, like, hey, here is
everything that we have in ourin our drawer, and then um kind
of letting them make thedecision themselves?
SPEAKER_00 (06:08):
Uh I wouldn't call it transparency, I would call it
honesty.
I think what customers reallyare looking for is for an honest
conversation, and they'relooking for uh uh they they want
to be taken care of, right?
And and uh that this is reallywhere where this sits is that
all of this back and forth thatyou find jewelers put themselves
in sketches and emails and catdesigns and price revisions and
(06:28):
back and forth with suppliers tobe able to eventually provide an
answer to their customers oncustom jewelry, that's feels too
challenging.
It feels once again, going backto this word of friction, that
friction is really what drivesum the maybe the maybe leaders
that come that come that comesfrom those customers.
And and this is what we'rereally trying to solve.
It's we're trying to make thecustomer, the retailers super
(06:49):
confident.
And and therefore, when they areconfident and this is what they
display to the customers, thenthey will receive that same
confidence back from the readfrom the from the jeweler with
the same day yes.
And and really that's the mottoof character wise is being able
to grab that same day yes.
SPEAKER_02 (07:04):
Same day yes, I like that term.
And when you're working withlike uh you know a really large
business such as you know, BlueNile, James Allen, so you're
discussing this is uh you knowdirect to consumer, these
companies are so large.
Now you're kind of fighting onthe side of uh of the retailer
of like an independent store.
Um do you find that itcomplicates things or is it
(07:27):
more, I don't know,straightforward for you to kind
of have less strings attachedand less uh kind of
infrastructure, maybe moredirect?
Is that uh an accurate kind oflike comparison?
SPEAKER_00 (07:40):
I don't know that I don't know that I would have
used the word uh fightingnecessarily.
I think I think I'm stillworking as to me.
I'm still very much doing thesame job.
I'm doing it just for morepeople.
I used to do it for Blue Nelland James Ellen now.
I I do the exact same job, butfor a lot more independent
jewelers, and there's somethingquite exciting about it.
I think uh, you know,independent jewelers are
(08:02):
incredible people,multi-generational, most of the
cases, really genuine.
Uh, they have an amazing amountof trust in their community, and
this is a huge asset to workwith, and that's amazing.
This is new to me in that sense.
Because really Bindell and JamesAllen, you know, they had two
voices.
One was a little bit morepremium, the other one was more
approachable and playful.
But at the end of the day, whatthey really create is that they
(08:23):
raised expectations across theentire industry by delivering
those experiences online withvisualization and try seeing, as
we as we explained, as weexplained before, they raised
expectations.
And not only on large regionalor major retailers out there,
but also on the independentjewelers.
Those independent jewelers,their website is sitting one
click away from Blue Nile andJames Sally, which means that
(08:43):
whether or not the customers doit consciously, they're not
they're not giving you adiscount because you're an
independent jeweler.
They expect the same, if notbetter.
Uh, and that's what reallyhappened with Blue Nile and
James Salin, driving up thoseexpectations.
But I think today theopportunity is amazing for
independent jewelers becausethose technologies are right
there and available.
And now you have the adventuresof you have the trust that
(09:04):
you've always had, but on top ofthat, now you have those tools
that are, in my opinion, throughCarrotWise, even better uh than
what you could find with BlueNow, James Salin, and the
others.
Um, I think this is a prettystrong combo.
SPEAKER_02 (09:17):
Yeah.
Maybe let's dive intoCarrotWise.
I think it's such a really coolum business model.
And the builder that you guyshave been working on is very uh,
I guess, immersive and feelsvery natural.
Uh, I can only imagine how muchtime you guys have spent on it.
Can you first of all just setup, you know, who Carrotwise is
(09:37):
and then uh talk about this newproduct that you have coming
out?
SPEAKER_00 (09:40):
Yeah, so so CarrotWise allows and helps
independent jewelers to designfreely, price instantly, and
deliver confidently.
Right.
So it's real-time design.
It's you can do it next to yourcustomer alongside them in your
store.
They can do it completely ontheir own on your website.
Uh the pricing updatesinstantly.
And that pricing is your pricingas an independent jeweler.
(10:01):
This is we work with you duringyour onboarding, we work on your
margins, we work on making sureyour markups are all covered,
and then everything is happeningon its own.
So when your customer is playingon the website, when the
customer is playing in yourstore, and really I use the word
playing because design should beplayful.
Yeah.
Right.
And that's what we try to,that's what we try to deliver
with carrot-wise, the goldpricing is taken care of, the
diamonds are done, the thevisualizations are amazing, and
(10:24):
we'll discuss the builder in asecond.
There's no guessing, there's nowaiting for quotes, there's no
when is it gonna arrive?
Am I gonna get am I gonna get itbefore my cruise leaves?
Uh etc.
And we all love obviously thosecustomers telling you, I'm
leaving on a cruise in 10 days,can you make it?
Yeah, we all love that, right?
And everyone goes on a cruiseapparently.
So, but the whole point is totry to drive that maybe later.
(10:47):
Uh, that a lot of I mean, us asjewelers, we say to customers,
let me get back to you.
So, how can we expect an answerthat is different than maybe
later?
If we are able to turn ouranswers into yes immediately,
you'll get it before yourcruise, then they will also
answer back to us same day, yes,right?
Yes, okay, you can give me ayes, I can give you back a yes
(11:08):
in return.
We're trying to shift that,right?
Really, we're not looking at theanswers that customers are
giving us, is that let's improvethe answers we are providing to
customers, and they will improvetheir answers towards us.
SPEAKER_02 (11:19):
Wow, what a that's such a great mindset.
And I I've noticed uh throughthe opportunity of speaking with
lots of um, you know, uhbusiness leaders such as
yourself uh throughout theyears, that mindset is kind of
the kernel that it all seems tostart with.
And you can build great tools,you can build, uh, you can hire
great people, but I thinkmindset is very unifying.
(11:42):
And I really it makes me thinkwhen it comes to the having a
definitive answer, it reallydoes take out a lot of that
friction.
Um, even just in the the salesprocess behind the sales
process, which is uh very metato think about.
Uh is that something that youyou have at your core that
you've been like kind of bakingin at every meeting?
(12:04):
Like, how do you kind of followthrough with that mindset uh and
and make sure that everyone kindof is on board?
SPEAKER_00 (12:10):
Well, I mean, a hundred percent.
In in a sense, it it also takesaway from the actual answer.
I would say a fast anddefinitive answer is much better
than the let me get back to you.
And then when you get back tothem, the answer is better.
You actually lost momentum.
When you are able to beconfident and you say, So for
care it was, you know, wemanufacture in two to three
weeks, uh, depending on design.
(12:31):
Maybe there's a customer thatwould have loved to hear 10 days
from you.
But when you give him theconfidence three weeks, it may
not be the best answer.
Yes, but you are much morelikely to get the right, the
right same day yes that you'relooking for, as opposed to being
able to get back to him two dayslater and tell him, yes, I can
do what you asked me to do.
That's that's not that's that'skilling the momentum a little
bit.
And having that confidence to beable to give those, and you
(12:55):
know, you may you don't have tobe the best priced out there.
You know, not everyone is gonnais gonna be looking for the last
$50, the last$25.
As long as you're confident inyour answers, it also means that
your answers don't have to bethe best of the best of the best
because it doesn't it it's notrequired.
SPEAKER_02 (13:10):
You know, you you're using all these these words that
are the kind of the X factor alot of times in in user
experience, especially.
Uh, so we talk about friction,and now we're talking about
momentum.
And these are these I find itvery hard to define uh types of
concepts.
Obviously, momentum is like aforce in motion, stays in
motion, and it's like itcontinues.
(13:33):
But sometimes I find myselftrying to explain to my parents
uh things related to userexperience and how like, oh
yeah, momentum.
Have you ever like started asale or like even you build it
all the way down to the bottom?
You ever go to like a you know aflea market and you're buying
something and you're likebartering and you can feel the
momentum moving towardssomething.
(13:54):
If you were to throw the brakeson and and there's a fire drill,
and then everybody leaves, andthen you were to come back,
something is lost there.
And I think that what you'retalking about is having the
answers ready is part of themomentum.
And then we talk about frictionand having it as easy as
possible.
Those are these two kind oftangentially related concepts.
(14:16):
I I really appreciate that youkind of have those as a focus.
SPEAKER_00 (14:20):
And the truth is that it's not is the jeweler
that they don't have the answersto be able to remain in
momentum, right?
It's so fragmented today.
You you buy your lead fromsomeone, you buy the diamond
from someone else, you get thesemi-mail from someone else,
then your jeweler may be onstuff, maybe your jeweler is
external to you, then this catrevisions.
Oh, this is thicker than what Iexpected.
(14:40):
All of this is creating so muchfriction.
How can you have momentum?
It's impossible for a jeweler incustom in custom bridal today or
in custom jewelry in general toeven gain that momentum.
Everything requires back andforth and back and forth and
revisions and gold prices.
I mean, just imagine you had ameeting two weeks ago, now
prices of gold just went up by10% in the meantime.
How can you afford momentum?
(15:02):
It's impossible to achieve.
And really, this is really whatwe defined as as carrot wise as
the number one problem ofcustom.
The number one problem of customis not the price or the delivery
or even the timeline.
The number one problem of customis momentum.
And really, what we are tryingto do, and we'll talk about the
builder.
The builder is a huge pillar forus on how we are hoping we are
removing friction and enablingmomentum.
SPEAKER_02 (15:23):
Yeah, so let's dive into it.
Let's talk about this uh thisring builder.
I uh have got a chance to see itum actually as it's been
developed.
It's been very cool.
Uh Punchmark is working on uh onan integration for our clients
so that it's very naturalfeeling as well.
And it's very obvious that ithas spent a lot of time in the
(15:43):
polishing stage and making surethat it feels very uh very
natural.
Can you maybe describe theexperience and and what your
goals were with it?
SPEAKER_00 (15:52):
And I think that's the you know, the number more
shortcoming of a podcast is thatI'm gonna try to describe in the
next two minutes somethingvisual.
Yeah, so but but I'm gonna do mybest.
Um, it's like watching a cookingshow, and then you know you can
see uh Gordon Ramsney tell youit's tasty.
Great, you know, really helps mea lot here, Gordon.
Thank you so much.
So please don't blame me.
This is a format, blame Michael.
(16:13):
Uh but if you want to see, ifyou want to see a little bit of
what our uh builder looks like,go to carrotwise.com.
There's a there's a trimmed downversion of it because we don't
want to show everything oncarrotwise.com.
And if you book a demo and we'lldiscuss how you can do that, but
if you book a demo, we'll showyou everything.
But really, the builder isincredible because what we've
noticed is a huge um uh uh placefor friction and and and lack of
(16:39):
momentum, as we've discussedbefore, is when jewelers find
themselves telling to customers,whether it's by picking
something in the case or byshowing something on their
website, the same amount ontheir websites, like imagine
this.
Imagine this in yellow gold,imagine this with a bigger
diamond, imagine this with anold diamond or with a halo
around it.
Every single time we findourselves telling the customer,
(16:59):
imagine, imagine, imagine, weactually just created a gap.
We created a gap between visionand imagination.
And that gap is a gap thatjewelers typically are able to
bridge, but customers are not,because they don't live in our
industry.
They don't live with a productcategory.
Hopefully, they get engaged onlyonce in their life.
And we just lost that customer.
We lost that customer toconfusion, to uncertainty, and
(17:21):
really to discomfort.
So, what we did with our builderis that every single time you
click on something, somethingupdates.
You're gonna move to yellowgold, it's gonna change to
yellow gold.
You're gonna change the head toplatinum, the head is gonna
change.
And you're gonna move from anoval one carat to an oval three
carat, the oval's gonna getbigger.
You're gonna move to a pairshape, it's gonna move as well.
And every single image thatwe're showing you, where there's
(17:43):
a 360 render, the photo reelrenders with a white background
on model, and my CTO is gonnakill me for my next sentence.
But we're even working on video,but please don't pressure us for
it, it's coming here.
Uh, he's gonna kill me formentioning it.
But in any case, um what we didwith the builder is that every
single click is reflective, andtherefore you're you will never
(18:03):
find yourself telling yourcustomer imagine with what we
built at carrot-wise, and that'shuge.
Uh, that's huge for confidence,it's huge for momentum.
Uh, even when they engrave, theengraving appears right here and
there.
There's three different fontsthat you can choose.
So eventually, once you stopdesigning the ring and you look
at it one last time before yougo and choose a center stone for
it, the the design button infront of you.
(18:26):
You can see it on model, you cansee it on your own skin tone,
which I forgot to mention.
Uh the builder is incredible.
Go to carry twice.com, see asmall version of it, a trimmed
down version of it.
And then if you want to seemore, book a demo and and we'll
show it to you as well.
SPEAKER_02 (18:39):
And we'll have that in the show notes.
Uh, so if you want to go andcheck it out, definitely do
that.
Uh I wanted to I have to thinkabout the business uh initially
first.
So if you're um, let's just sayyou're a jeweler and you want to
add some custom aspect to yourto your business.
Uh I always wonder I'm sure thatthere's a push and pull when
(19:00):
you're a uh you know a businessowner, you probably you want
them to be happy first andforemost, absolutely, the the
customer.
But you also probably want tomaybe upsell them as well.
What is like the the ability forthis thing to maybe push the
envelope just a little bit moreand and make this a a larger
project?
Because I'm sure everybody likedo you really need uh uh a ring
(19:23):
builder for just a a standardbog standard uh like solitaire?
I'm sure it you know probablyjust leans right in when you
start adding these additionaleffects to it.
SPEAKER_00 (19:34):
Yeah, I mean so 100%.
And those are numbers that Iknow are true or effects, and I
can't discuss exactly what thosenumbers are, but my experience
for the last decade tells meexactly this, right?
Is that when you even a customsimple solitaire as you called
it, you can make it feel likeit's yours and it's mine, it's
my engraving, and also the feelthe fact that now you're able to
(19:54):
showcase the size of a diamondon a finger, and as you
increase, people understandsuddenly, oh, one and a half is
really not the same size as onecarat, right?
So this is an upsell.
And you know, it's part of thedesign session.
I don't, it doesn't feel like anupsell, and that those are the
best types of them, right?
But also every matching band oncarrot wise is made for that
specific engagement ring.
(20:15):
So once you make the matchingband appear uh on the builder
next to the ring, it's it'sflush, it's made for it, it's
amazingly, you know, uh matchingthe shape and the sizes of the
diamonds or the thickness of theband, it's all right there.
So now you have a much, muchhigher ability to convert the
matching band on the spot.
And even if you don't match iton, even if you're not able to
(20:36):
sell it on the spot, which is achallenge in and of itself, you
know, selling matching bandswith the engagement at the same
time.
Now they know when I need mymatching band in six months from
now, that Michaels jewelers atyou know at the corner of my
street, uh, who sold me theengagement has the perfect
matching band for it.
And I saw it with my own eyes.
This is much stronger thantelling you I have a matching
(20:58):
band, right?
Seeing it right there.
So those are some of the thingsyou can do with with a with a
great builder and with a greatum visualization tool.
SPEAKER_02 (21:06):
Yeah, I it's been a common one.
I'm sure that the peoplelistening to me, uh, they're all
retail jewelers, they areprobably rolling their eyes.
I always think it is such afumble to not go in on the
wedding band, or at least notstart selling the wedding band
um during the engagement ring.
Uh my brother just got engageduh a few uh few months ago.
(21:28):
Hey Joe.
And what's his name?
Uh my brother's is Joseph.
Yeah.
And he Joseph, congrats.
Yes.
And what's funny is when he wasbuying his uh his engagement
ring, he was like, you know, I Iconnected him with a jeweler and
he builds this custom thing.
I was like, Oh, so what'd you dofor your um your wedding band?
(21:50):
And he's like, Oh, you know, wehaven't we haven't started on
that.
And I'm just like, huh, I wouldhave started on that.
I feel like that's like the thenext thing because you're
probably gonna get marriedrelatively soon.
But I guess I wanted to askabout uh you you mentioned the
the instant answers.
You can control that as much aspossible.
What about if someone is in thisbuilder and then they need they
(22:11):
just need a little bit of timeto think about it?
Is there a way for them to takeum, you know, either a render or
something with with them andthen walk away and maybe look at
it a little bit longer?
What's that kind of leave behindlike?
SPEAKER_00 (22:22):
Yeah.
So first of all, they have theability to do that whether they
are online in your storecompletely on their own, um, at
home at 2 a.m., as I saidbefore, or next to you, they can
tell you I need more time andthey can save the design for
later.
And what will happen is that umthey'll you'll you as a retailer
will receive a beautifullybranded asset with the image,
the summary of the design sofar, the diamond, the design,
(22:46):
every single aspect of it is allsaved with the beautiful
pictures and assets that we areable to generate, including a
recap of the pricing.
And you'll be able to take that.
It's branded with your own logoas an independent jeweler.
And by the way, this is true ofeverything CaratWise that
CaratWise is not acustomer-facing brand.
We are your supply chainpartner, we are your design
technology partner, but we'resitting behind your brand, where
(23:06):
we've got to match your UI, yourUX, your colors, your fonts,
your logos, even the shape ofyour buttons is something that
we will adjust to.
But eventually, uh, what willhappen is that you will be able
to take that save design andtext it to your customer,
WhatsApp it to them, email it tothem, say, Michael, thank you
for coming earlier today.
This is where we left off.
Go and show it to this, to do toyour future sister-in-law if
(23:28):
this is what he told you.
And then you can pick up fromthere.
So you're able to, and we'reeven able to do that from the
online.
So that customer can be online,save the design for later.
We'll capture the lead, theircell phone number, uh, we'll
provide it to you um for freecompletely, and you'll be able
to clientele that customer andcall them and say, Michael, you
were all on my website yesterdaynight, and you designed this
beautiful pear-shaped halo uhengagering in yellow gold.
(23:51):
Do you want to come in andfinish this in store?
SPEAKER_02 (23:53):
Wow.
So, from all of our discussionsabout user experience, I know
you just went to several uhjewelry shows and you have even
more coming up with uh JCK justaround the bend.
Uh, what has the reaction been?
Because I know that user testingand user interviews are
important.
Granted, this is a this is astrange one because you are kind
(24:15):
of designing it for a differentB2C.
You have like two differentusers.
You have you know the retailerand then you have the shopper.
What are you seeing as far aslike usage?
Anything surprise you when itcomes to like how people are
using it?
What stood out?
SPEAKER_00 (24:32):
Yeah, no, I mean the reaction has been honestly uh
overwhelmingly good.
Uh and and when we when we'reworking on that, because our and
my personal background is inretail, I really am building a
tool that I know consumers willcare about.
Yes.
So everything visually speaking,UI UX-wise, we build it, we we
(24:53):
build it for consumers, but thenevery feature, and I don't like
to use that word because itsounds so techy, and I know
Michael, you're a techie, butfor the sake of discussion,
every feature is built for thejeweler.
So the visualization and the UIis made for conversion, is made
for consumers, which means alsoit's super friendly and easy to
train your staff on it.
Because if it's supposed to befriendly for a consumer, it's
(25:13):
definitely friendly for asalesperson, right?
But every feature is builttowards targeting that friction
that I've we've discussedthroughout the entire podcast at
this point to enable theindependent jewelers to feel to
feel that momentum.
SPEAKER_02 (25:27):
You know, I'm really starting to see that the one of
the assets that I feel likeisn't talked about enough in in
a jewelry uh store you kind ofslept on is like the need for an
iPad um or just like a tablet ofsome sort.
Is that where you when you weredesigning this, is it for a
collaborative like desktopexperience?
Do you think it's is ideal or isit intended to like you know
(25:50):
have on a tablet and be able tokind of like walk through and
have them clicking the buttonsand have it discussed like that?
Where did you like start from inthe conceptual stage?
SPEAKER_00 (26:00):
Yeah, 100%.
That's the exact so at itsstrongest, it's on an iPad in
between you and your customers,right?
And you guys are playingtogether and it's super
intuitive and they can click andplay and turn around and take
the ring in every direction andlook at it from the top and the
bottom and play with it.
Uh, the only thing we're askingjewelers is even though it's
working on mobile, like don't doit on mobile with your customer.
(26:21):
I mean, your customer is goingto do it on mobile.
Your customer is gonna do it onmobile when they're home, and
that's fine, and it's workinggreat.
But when they're in a store, beon a desktop computer, be on an
iPad, an iPad is great becauseyou can give it to them, right?
That's what's amazing about theiPad that you can hand it over
to them and they can startplaying on their own.
And the more they touch and playon their own, the much the more
(26:41):
they get emotionally attached tothat design.
And once they get emotionallyattached, they love the design,
they love you, obviously,because they they walked in.
You are their local jewelry.
They already love you, theyalready want to work with you.
Now that's it.
Uh, there's no reason for themto consider any other places to
buy their engagement from.
SPEAKER_02 (26:59):
Yeah, it's very uh cool to be able to see so many
uh jewelry stores andcollaborate with jewelers.
I have a local jewelry storedown here.
Um, their previous owners werevery close to me.
Uh, the previous owner actuallyum sold me a house, which is
pretty cool.
And but very much uh more oflike a relic of like um a
(27:19):
slightly older age where it wasall about just the number of
display cases and um you knowjust having the jewelry kind of
in front of you.
It was less about like thiscollaborative experience.
Now I'm starting to see a lotmore stores that have a
designated like consultationlocation where it's you know,
like a coffee table, two orthree chairs, maybe nicely lit,
(27:43):
just very casual, maybe coffeenearby.
Uh, I'm starting to see is thatin user experience, we discuss
um environment a lot.
It do you guys take into accountor think about um the feeling
and like what that thatconsultation will look like uh
as well, uh as well as thebuilder?
SPEAKER_00 (28:02):
Yeah, yeah, 100%.
So we have a as I said, thevisualization is made for
intuition, but every feature isdesigned for that conversation.
It is designed for that coffeetable you just described.
I'm a firm believer in thatlocation within the retail
store.
I think it's extremelyimportant.
It creates a lot of things.
Yes, it takes away from cases,but like how many cases do you
(28:23):
really need?
Yeah.
And what's really nice, what'sreally nice about that the
coffee table is that everyonewalking around the store, when
you have other customers, cansee that something's going on at
this coffee table.
Something's exciting there,something is you know really
cool and correct.
And and the best consultationrooms I've seen is when there's
also a TV that you know mirrorswhat's on the iPad and what's on
(28:45):
the desktop.
And the entire store now can seewhat's happening with the design
session, that creates uh anincredible experience in the
store because it's just like adynamic.
And we all know when we see astore that is empty, we don't
want to walk in.
But when we see a store, there'slike something's going on,
there's a little bit of uh someaction happening.
So I believe I'm a firm believerin that in that design uh
(29:06):
location within within stores,which allows me to say that if
you come to JCK and visit us, umyou will likely see other
verticals of jewelry besidesengagement and wedding bands,
right?
No promises yet, but um it's notonly about custom is not only
about bridal.
It is obviously about bridal,but custom is about a little bit
more than that as well.
SPEAKER_02 (29:27):
Yeah, I was gonna I was gonna ask, and I don't want
you to have to get too deep intoit and have your uh your CTO mad
at you because I totally mad atme.
This is gone.
I was gonna say is um I findthat I find that a lot of custom
is focused around engagementrings.
And as someone that is is notshopping for engagement rings
right now, uh I sometimes wonderif these custom jewelers are
(29:50):
kind of and I don't want to saypigeonholing because obviously
it is the you know the the mainfocus, like the real chase.
Uh is there anywhere that youhope to expand to next when it
comes to to custom design?
I like just off the top of myhead, I I find that uh things
related to bracelets is isreally interesting because
there's a lot of options andlike how you can do it.
(30:12):
Uh where would you want to gonext?
SPEAKER_00 (30:14):
Yeah, so I'm gonna give a uh uh you know a
shameful, shameless uh plug tomy own LinkedIn profile.
Go and read my LinkedIn profile,guys and uh and ladies.
I just wrote about it.
Yes, I believe custom is muchmore than engagement.
Um, I think you know, I'll takethe example of tennis bracelets,
which you gave.
What lab ground created is a newdynamic, right?
(30:36):
So round was the shape foralmost everything in the world
of natural.
It would be the shape forengagement, but it would be the
shape for studs and tennisbracelets, etc.
What lab ground did is actuallyround went down, but it's not as
if another shape went upspecifically.
It's all the other shapes thatwent up, which means inventory
is now impossible to cover.
You cannot cover with inventoryall the metals, all the metals,
(30:57):
the gold, the color of themetals, the shapes, the
marquees, the total carrotweights.
And then in the world of tennisbracelets, uh what it is seven
inches, six and a half inches,five inches, five and a half
inches.
It's impossible to cover this.
Impossible.
So what I would say is caratiseis not is not supposed to
replace all of your cases,right?
It's a your cases should be fullof your best-selling designs
(31:17):
that you know you'll be able toturn and you'll be able to
utilize that that that umfinancial commitment you are you
have towards that inventory.
I mean, when you don't have itin the case, having a tool such
as carrot wise for bridal andeventually for more than bridal
would allow you to always knowyou're covered, right?
Two to three weeks later, I canget you almost anything you're
asking of me.
And that's really, reallyinteresting.
SPEAKER_02 (31:39):
Yeah, I I find that the discussion is increasingly
about boiling down your um yourinventory and your case displays
to fewer brands and moreoptions.
So a lot of the times it's it'suh at least from the the
discussions I've had, is l uhfewer people are having these um
(32:02):
buy right out of the case whenit comes to I mean, granted they
are, but um right out of thecase, a lot of the times it's
like, oh, I want to have this,but I want uh you know a tweak
on it.
And as a result, that it givesit that um you know that luxury
experience.
And I'm finding that the brandsthat are able to cater to that,
it it's like having you know 15or 20 more display cases if you
(32:27):
have that custom experience.
And not only that, it it buys,it's truly theirs.
It's not just some, you know,the stock uh product.
It now it's tailored to them,even if it's something as simple
as just you know changing themetal or or adding a different
type of uh stone to it.
I totally agree.
SPEAKER_00 (32:43):
Yeah, 100%.
SPEAKER_02 (32:45):
Now, David, if people are interested, give it
one more plug.
And um, are you gonna be you'regoing to be at JCK and uh giving
demos?
SPEAKER_00 (32:53):
Yeah, we'll get we're gonna be at JCK, we're
gonna be at AGS as well inSeptember.
We're gonna be at the mostimportant in-person event of the
year, which is the punchmarkwork workshop.
SPEAKER_02 (33:02):
I mean, crazy.
SPEAKER_00 (33:03):
Uh listen, I think we're 95% there, Michael.
So I think I can say it in thepodcast that we're 95% uh going
to the punchmark workshop.
So if you guys don't know whatthe punchmark workshop, uh
Michael will tell you all aboutit, but uh we'll be there as
well.
We'll be at other buying groups.
Uh we we went to CBG in Miami,we'll likely be at CBG in Las
Vegas, and there's plenty more.
If you go to the events page onour website on carrotwise.com,
(33:27):
you'll be able to see all theevents we're going to.
Once we are confirmed a fewweeks before, we will open up uh
demo slots specifically for eachevent.
They they tend to get filled upquite quickly.
So I would recommend you go andyou book them.
And in general, you want to seeit before uh you see us in
person, go to carrotwise.com,right?
Request a demo right here andthere.
The website is full ofinformation about what we do.
(33:49):
There's also all thevisualization that I've
discussed before, even thoughit's a trimmed-down version of
it.
Um, you can start understandingwhat we're all about and what we
do.
You can preview the renders.
Uh yeah, carrotwise.com.
As easy as that.
Request a demo.
SPEAKER_02 (34:02):
That's awesome.
And if you're a punchmarkclient, we have uh a uh native
integration that's rolling outright now.
And uh if you end up getting ademo, maybe let them know in the
loop senior.
It makes this look good.
Um, anything else, David, beforewe wrap up?
SPEAKER_00 (34:17):
No, thank you, Michael, so much for the for the
opportunity.
I really appreciate it.
Uh it's uh it's a greatopportunity to work with
Punchmark in general, to workwith you.
And um, we're very lucky to havepartners such as yourself.
SPEAKER_02 (34:27):
Awesome.
Well, thank you so much,everybody, for listening.
We'll be back next week,Tuesday, with another episode.
Cheers.
Bye.
All right, everybody.
That's the end of the show.
Thanks so much for listening.
This week, my guest was DavidVerdugo with Carrowise.
Make sure you check them out inthe show notes below.
(34:50):
This episode was brought to youby Punchmark and produced and
hosted by me, Michael Burpa.
This episode was edited by PaulSuarez with music by Ross
Cochran.
Don't forget to rate the podcaston Spotify and Apple Podcasts
and leave us feedback onpunchmark.com slash loop.
That's L O U P E.
Thanks, and we'll be back nextweek Tuesday with another
episode.
Cheers.
(35:10):
Bye.
Welcome back everybody to In the Loop.
What is up everybody?
My name is Michael Burpo.
Thanks again for listening to Inthe Loop.
This week I'm joined by DavidVerdugo.
He's the CEO of Carrotwise.
And Carrotwise is this newcompany that does these
incredible experiences forcustom engagement rings, and
(00:23):
they hope to expand to othercustom jewelry types.
We are working on an integrationwith CarrotWise at Punchmark,
and I've gotten to know Davidand his pretty impressive
background throughout the lastcouple of months.
And I invited him on to In theLoop to share his experience of
being COO of some prettyimpressive companies, as well as
(00:43):
how he takes that experience andbrings it to CarrotWise to have
the best experience possible forshoppers.
It's a really cool conversation.
I think that David understandsuser experience better than
almost anybody I've spoken to onIn the Loop.
And it's kind of veryinteresting to hear his
experiences throughout the yearsand how he kind of harnesses
that.
I hope you enjoy theconversation.
SPEAKER_01 (01:10):
This episode is brought to you by Punchmark, the
jewelry industry's favoritewebsite platform and digital
growth agency.
Our mission reaches way beyondtechnology.
With decades of experience andlong-lasting industry
relationships, Punchmark enablesjewelry businesses to flourish
in any marketplace.
We consider our clients ourfriends, as many of them have
(01:30):
been friends way before becomingclients.
Punchmark's own success comesfrom the fact that we have a
much deeper need and obligationto help our friends succeed.
Whether you're looking forbetter e-commerce performance,
business growth, or campaignsthat drive traffic and sales,
PunchMark's website andmarketing services were made
just for you.
It's never too late to transformyour business and stitch
(01:52):
together your digital andphysical worlds in a way that
achieves tremendous growth andresults.
Schedule a guided demo today atpunchmark.com slash go.
And now back to the show.
SPEAKER_02 (02:17):
How are you, Michael?
How's it how's everything?
So well.
I'm so excited to get a chanceto speak with you.
We've been working together onthis uh ring builder project for
a little while that we're gonnaget into in a in a little bit.
Um when I learned about yourbackground, I was I was very uh
I was caught off guard.
It's uh it's a very impressiveuh resume that you've built for
(02:38):
yourself.
Can you kind of share with theaudience your background with
the jewelry industry?
SPEAKER_00 (02:42):
Sure.
Uh thank you for starting offwith a compliment.
Always makes me comfortable.
Uh so I'm David, I'm the CEO ofCarrotwise.
Uh and for almost a decade, Iwas the chief operating officer
of Blue Nell and JamesTalon.com,right?
And uh really my entire careerhas been about removing
friction, removing friction frompurchasing custom jewelry for
customers and removing frictionfrom delivering that jewelry
(03:05):
eventually to those customersmaking it easy to deliver.
It's all about the details.
And this is really theexperience that I grew up um uh
with, and this is what CaratWisedoes every day now.
SPEAKER_02 (03:16):
That's really interesting.
Talking about removing friction,that's one of those uh hidden
aspects.
I'm the director of userexperience at Punchmark, and all
that is just a fancy way ofsaying like we want to make it
as easy as possible for certaintools to be used.
And I always think like when youdo it right, I always think it's
like uh it's like swimming.
If you've ever used like areally good experience where
(03:38):
you're not thinking about thetools, it just feels very
natural.
When it comes to working in likea big company like like the ones
you just listed, those are many,many people.
Uh, what is it that you takewith you uh from like leading a
large group like that to leadingmaybe uh more of a startup?
SPEAKER_00 (03:56):
Honestly, it's not that different because really my
job is about details.
I I like to dive into thetransparency of the processes.
I like to really go into thedetails, dig into them, try to
understand what's happening.
And the truth is, custom jewelryis really hard to make.
It's really hard to make becauseyou make a promise in advance,
and then you now you need tofind a way to deliver.
Yes, it is difficult at scale,but at scale you have more
(04:18):
means.
But the truth that the thechallenge is similar between an
independent jewelry and thoselarge retailers such as Blue
Nell and James Allen.
And what we did at the time,really what we pioneered was
this transparency that webrought to the to the customer,
you know, the ability to designfreely, there was you know, no
pressure around you when you'rebrowsing on your website, alone,
at home at 2 a.m.
(04:39):
and on your cell phone, thatthat transparency that we
brought and the you know, theability to understand clear
pricing, visualization, thetimelines were super clear.
All of this gave confidence tocustomers to make decisions.
And when you add all of this,right, the price transparency,
the product, the timelineclarity as well, all of this is
what converts at the end.
And and this is really what BlueNell and James Allen uh drove
(05:01):
and and brought to our industry.
SPEAKER_02 (05:03):
It's quite fascinating when you discuss
like transparency at at the atthe heart of the matter, because
one thing I've I've talked abouta lot on on this podcast is um
like the the hidden cost and thelike the the ability to make
your your your juice.
And uh that's why I hate buyingcars, is because it's one of the
last industries where you'reallowed to like mark things up
(05:28):
and then like battle and likeyou don't know if you got a good
deal or not.
Maybe they won, maybe you won.
Uh with jewelry, it seems likethat is going very far away.
And there's a lot of uhbusinesses that are making it
their their model to be astransparent as possible, even to
where they source their diamondsfrom, the markup that they make
(05:49):
on the diamonds, like how theycan cut down the markup as much
as possible.
Is that something that you'retrying to is the transparency
part of the sales pitch?
Uh like coming forward andsaying, like, hey, here is
everything that we have in ourin our drawer, and then um kind
of letting them make thedecision themselves?
SPEAKER_00 (06:08):
Uh I wouldn't call it transparency, I would call it
honesty.
I think what customers reallyare looking for is for an honest
conversation, and they'relooking for uh uh they they want
to be taken care of, right?
And and uh that this is reallywhere where this sits is that
all of this back and forth thatyou find jewelers put themselves
in sketches and emails and catdesigns and price revisions and
(06:28):
back and forth with suppliers tobe able to eventually provide an
answer to their customers oncustom jewelry, that's feels too
challenging.
It feels once again, going backto this word of friction, that
friction is really what drivesum the maybe the maybe leaders
that come that come that comesfrom those customers.
And and this is what we'rereally trying to solve.
It's we're trying to make thecustomer, the retailers super
(06:49):
confident.
And and therefore, when they areconfident and this is what they
display to the customers, thenthey will receive that same
confidence back from the readfrom the from the jeweler with
the same day yes.
And and really that's the mottoof character wise is being able
to grab that same day yes.
SPEAKER_02 (07:04):
Same day yes, I like that term.
And when you're working withlike uh you know a really large
business such as you know, BlueNile, James Allen, so you're
discussing this is uh you knowdirect to consumer, these
companies are so large.
Now you're kind of fighting onthe side of uh of the retailer
of like an independent store.
Um do you find that itcomplicates things or is it
(07:27):
more, I don't know,straightforward for you to kind
of have less strings attachedand less uh kind of
infrastructure, maybe moredirect?
Is that uh an accurate kind oflike comparison?
SPEAKER_00 (07:40):
I don't know that I don't know that I would have
used the word uh fightingnecessarily.
I think I think I'm stillworking as to me.
I'm still very much doing thesame job.
I'm doing it just for morepeople.
I used to do it for Blue Nelland James Ellen now.
I I do the exact same job, butfor a lot more independent
jewelers, and there's somethingquite exciting about it.
I think uh, you know,independent jewelers are
(08:02):
incredible people,multi-generational, most of the
cases, really genuine.
Uh, they have an amazing amountof trust in their community, and
this is a huge asset to workwith, and that's amazing.
This is new to me in that sense.
Because really Bindell and JamesAllen, you know, they had two
voices.
One was a little bit morepremium, the other one was more
approachable and playful.
But at the end of the day, whatthey really create is that they
(08:23):
raised expectations across theentire industry by delivering
those experiences online withvisualization and try seeing, as
we as we explained, as weexplained before, they raised
expectations.
And not only on large regionalor major retailers out there,
but also on the independentjewelers.
Those independent jewelers,their website is sitting one
click away from Blue Nile andJames Sally, which means that
(08:43):
whether or not the customers doit consciously, they're not
they're not giving you adiscount because you're an
independent jeweler.
They expect the same, if notbetter.
Uh, and that's what reallyhappened with Blue Nile and
James Salin, driving up thoseexpectations.
But I think today theopportunity is amazing for
independent jewelers becausethose technologies are right
there and available.
And now you have the adventuresof you have the trust that
(09:04):
you've always had, but on top ofthat, now you have those tools
that are, in my opinion, throughCarrotWise, even better uh than
what you could find with BlueNow, James Salin, and the
others.
Um, I think this is a prettystrong combo.
SPEAKER_02 (09:17):
Yeah.
Maybe let's dive intoCarrotWise.
I think it's such a really coolum business model.
And the builder that you guyshave been working on is very uh,
I guess, immersive and feelsvery natural.
Uh, I can only imagine how muchtime you guys have spent on it.
Can you first of all just setup, you know, who Carrotwise is
(09:37):
and then uh talk about this newproduct that you have coming
out?
SPEAKER_00 (09:40):
Yeah, so so CarrotWise allows and helps
independent jewelers to designfreely, price instantly, and
deliver confidently.
Right.
So it's real-time design.
It's you can do it next to yourcustomer alongside them in your
store.
They can do it completely ontheir own on your website.
Uh the pricing updatesinstantly.
And that pricing is your pricingas an independent jeweler.
(10:01):
This is we work with you duringyour onboarding, we work on your
margins, we work on making sureyour markups are all covered,
and then everything is happeningon its own.
So when your customer is playingon the website, when the
customer is playing in yourstore, and really I use the word
playing because design should beplayful.
Yeah.
Right.
And that's what we try to,that's what we try to deliver
with carrot-wise, the goldpricing is taken care of, the
diamonds are done, the thevisualizations are amazing, and
(10:24):
we'll discuss the builder in asecond.
There's no guessing, there's nowaiting for quotes, there's no
when is it gonna arrive?
Am I gonna get am I gonna get itbefore my cruise leaves?
Uh etc.
And we all love obviously thosecustomers telling you, I'm
leaving on a cruise in 10 days,can you make it?
Yeah, we all love that, right?
And everyone goes on a cruiseapparently.
So, but the whole point is totry to drive that maybe later.
(10:47):
Uh, that a lot of I mean, us asjewelers, we say to customers,
let me get back to you.
So, how can we expect an answerthat is different than maybe
later?
If we are able to turn ouranswers into yes immediately,
you'll get it before yourcruise, then they will also
answer back to us same day, yes,right?
Yes, okay, you can give me ayes, I can give you back a yes
(11:08):
in return.
We're trying to shift that,right?
Really, we're not looking at theanswers that customers are
giving us, is that let's improvethe answers we are providing to
customers, and they will improvetheir answers towards us.
SPEAKER_02 (11:19):
Wow, what a that's such a great mindset.
And I I've noticed uh throughthe opportunity of speaking with
lots of um, you know, uhbusiness leaders such as
yourself uh throughout theyears, that mindset is kind of
the kernel that it all seems tostart with.
And you can build great tools,you can build, uh, you can hire
great people, but I thinkmindset is very unifying.
(11:42):
And I really it makes me thinkwhen it comes to the having a
definitive answer, it reallydoes take out a lot of that
friction.
Um, even just in the the salesprocess behind the sales
process, which is uh very metato think about.
Uh is that something that youyou have at your core that
you've been like kind of bakingin at every meeting?
(12:04):
Like, how do you kind of followthrough with that mindset uh and
and make sure that everyone kindof is on board?
SPEAKER_00 (12:10):
Well, I mean, a hundred percent.
In in a sense, it it also takesaway from the actual answer.
I would say a fast anddefinitive answer is much better
than the let me get back to you.
And then when you get back tothem, the answer is better.
You actually lost momentum.
When you are able to beconfident and you say, So for
care it was, you know, wemanufacture in two to three
weeks, uh, depending on design.
(12:31):
Maybe there's a customer thatwould have loved to hear 10 days
from you.
But when you give him theconfidence three weeks, it may
not be the best answer.
Yes, but you are much morelikely to get the right, the
right same day yes that you'relooking for, as opposed to being
able to get back to him two dayslater and tell him, yes, I can
do what you asked me to do.
That's that's not that's that'skilling the momentum a little
bit.
And having that confidence to beable to give those, and you
(12:55):
know, you may you don't have tobe the best priced out there.
You know, not everyone is gonnais gonna be looking for the last
$50, the last$25.
As long as you're confident inyour answers, it also means that
your answers don't have to bethe best of the best of the best
because it doesn't it it's notrequired.
SPEAKER_02 (13:10):
You know, you you're using all these these words that
are the kind of the X factor alot of times in in user
experience, especially.
Uh, so we talk about friction,and now we're talking about
momentum.
And these are these I find itvery hard to define uh types of
concepts.
Obviously, momentum is like aforce in motion, stays in
motion, and it's like itcontinues.
(13:33):
But sometimes I find myselftrying to explain to my parents
uh things related to userexperience and how like, oh
yeah, momentum.
Have you ever like started asale or like even you build it
all the way down to the bottom?
You ever go to like a you know aflea market and you're buying
something and you're likebartering and you can feel the
momentum moving towardssomething.
(13:54):
If you were to throw the brakeson and and there's a fire drill,
and then everybody leaves, andthen you were to come back,
something is lost there.
And I think that what you'retalking about is having the
answers ready is part of themomentum.
And then we talk about frictionand having it as easy as
possible.
Those are these two kind oftangentially related concepts.
(14:16):
I I really appreciate that youkind of have those as a focus.
SPEAKER_00 (14:20):
And the truth is that it's not is the jeweler
that they don't have the answersto be able to remain in
momentum, right?
It's so fragmented today.
You you buy your lead fromsomeone, you buy the diamond
from someone else, you get thesemi-mail from someone else,
then your jeweler may be onstuff, maybe your jeweler is
external to you, then this catrevisions.
Oh, this is thicker than what Iexpected.
(14:40):
All of this is creating so muchfriction.
How can you have momentum?
It's impossible for a jeweler incustom in custom bridal today or
in custom jewelry in general toeven gain that momentum.
Everything requires back andforth and back and forth and
revisions and gold prices.
I mean, just imagine you had ameeting two weeks ago, now
prices of gold just went up by10% in the meantime.
How can you afford momentum?
(15:02):
It's impossible to achieve.
And really, this is really whatwe defined as as carrot wise as
the number one problem ofcustom.
The number one problem of customis not the price or the delivery
or even the timeline.
The number one problem of customis momentum.
And really, what we are tryingto do, and we'll talk about the
builder.
The builder is a huge pillar forus on how we are hoping we are
removing friction and enablingmomentum.
SPEAKER_02 (15:23):
Yeah, so let's dive into it.
Let's talk about this uh thisring builder.
I uh have got a chance to see itum actually as it's been
developed.
It's been very cool.
Uh Punchmark is working on uh onan integration for our clients
so that it's very naturalfeeling as well.
And it's very obvious that ithas spent a lot of time in the
(15:43):
polishing stage and making surethat it feels very uh very
natural.
Can you maybe describe theexperience and and what your
goals were with it?
SPEAKER_00 (15:52):
And I think that's the you know, the number more
shortcoming of a podcast is thatI'm gonna try to describe in the
next two minutes somethingvisual.
Yeah, so but but I'm gonna do mybest.
Um, it's like watching a cookingshow, and then you know you can
see uh Gordon Ramsney tell youit's tasty.
Great, you know, really helps mea lot here, Gordon.
Thank you so much.
So please don't blame me.
This is a format, blame Michael.
(16:13):
Uh but if you want to see, ifyou want to see a little bit of
what our uh builder looks like,go to carrotwise.com.
There's a there's a trimmed downversion of it because we don't
want to show everything oncarrotwise.com.
And if you book a demo and we'lldiscuss how you can do that, but
if you book a demo, we'll showyou everything.
But really, the builder isincredible because what we've
noticed is a huge um uh uh placefor friction and and and lack of
(16:39):
momentum, as we've discussedbefore, is when jewelers find
themselves telling to customers,whether it's by picking
something in the case or byshowing something on their
website, the same amount ontheir websites, like imagine
this.
Imagine this in yellow gold,imagine this with a bigger
diamond, imagine this with anold diamond or with a halo
around it.
Every single time we findourselves telling the customer,
(16:59):
imagine, imagine, imagine, weactually just created a gap.
We created a gap between visionand imagination.
And that gap is a gap thatjewelers typically are able to
bridge, but customers are not,because they don't live in our
industry.
They don't live with a productcategory.
Hopefully, they get engaged onlyonce in their life.
And we just lost that customer.
We lost that customer toconfusion, to uncertainty, and
(17:21):
really to discomfort.
So, what we did with our builderis that every single time you
click on something, somethingupdates.
You're gonna move to yellowgold, it's gonna change to
yellow gold.
You're gonna change the head toplatinum, the head is gonna
change.
And you're gonna move from anoval one carat to an oval three
carat, the oval's gonna getbigger.
You're gonna move to a pairshape, it's gonna move as well.
And every single image thatwe're showing you, where there's
(17:43):
a 360 render, the photo reelrenders with a white background
on model, and my CTO is gonnakill me for my next sentence.
But we're even working on video,but please don't pressure us for
it, it's coming here.
Uh, he's gonna kill me formentioning it.
But in any case, um what we didwith the builder is that every
single click is reflective, andtherefore you're you will never
(18:03):
find yourself telling yourcustomer imagine with what we
built at carrot-wise, and that'shuge.
Uh, that's huge for confidence,it's huge for momentum.
Uh, even when they engrave, theengraving appears right here and
there.
There's three different fontsthat you can choose.
So eventually, once you stopdesigning the ring and you look
at it one last time before yougo and choose a center stone for
it, the the design button infront of you.
(18:26):
You can see it on model, you cansee it on your own skin tone,
which I forgot to mention.
Uh the builder is incredible.
Go to carry twice.com, see asmall version of it, a trimmed
down version of it.
And then if you want to seemore, book a demo and and we'll
show it to you as well.
SPEAKER_02 (18:39):
And we'll have that in the show notes.
Uh, so if you want to go andcheck it out, definitely do
that.
Uh I wanted to I have to thinkabout the business uh initially
first.
So if you're um, let's just sayyou're a jeweler and you want to
add some custom aspect to yourto your business.
Uh I always wonder I'm sure thatthere's a push and pull when
(19:00):
you're a uh you know a businessowner, you probably you want
them to be happy first andforemost, absolutely, the the
customer.
But you also probably want tomaybe upsell them as well.
What is like the the ability forthis thing to maybe push the
envelope just a little bit moreand and make this a a larger
project?
Because I'm sure everybody likedo you really need uh uh a ring
(19:23):
builder for just a a standardbog standard uh like solitaire?
I'm sure it you know probablyjust leans right in when you
start adding these additionaleffects to it.
SPEAKER_00 (19:34):
Yeah, I mean so 100%.
And those are numbers that Iknow are true or effects, and I
can't discuss exactly what thosenumbers are, but my experience
for the last decade tells meexactly this, right?
Is that when you even a customsimple solitaire as you called
it, you can make it feel likeit's yours and it's mine, it's
my engraving, and also the feelthe fact that now you're able to
(19:54):
showcase the size of a diamondon a finger, and as you
increase, people understandsuddenly, oh, one and a half is
really not the same size as onecarat, right?
So this is an upsell.
And you know, it's part of thedesign session.
I don't, it doesn't feel like anupsell, and that those are the
best types of them, right?
But also every matching band oncarrot wise is made for that
specific engagement ring.
(20:15):
So once you make the matchingband appear uh on the builder
next to the ring, it's it'sflush, it's made for it, it's
amazingly, you know, uh matchingthe shape and the sizes of the
diamonds or the thickness of theband, it's all right there.
So now you have a much, muchhigher ability to convert the
matching band on the spot.
And even if you don't match iton, even if you're not able to
(20:36):
sell it on the spot, which is achallenge in and of itself, you
know, selling matching bandswith the engagement at the same
time.
Now they know when I need mymatching band in six months from
now, that Michaels jewelers atyou know at the corner of my
street, uh, who sold me theengagement has the perfect
matching band for it.
And I saw it with my own eyes.
This is much stronger thantelling you I have a matching
(20:58):
band, right?
Seeing it right there.
So those are some of the thingsyou can do with with a with a
great builder and with a greatum visualization tool.
SPEAKER_02 (21:06):
Yeah, I it's been a common one.
I'm sure that the peoplelistening to me, uh, they're all
retail jewelers, they areprobably rolling their eyes.
I always think it is such afumble to not go in on the
wedding band, or at least notstart selling the wedding band
um during the engagement ring.
Uh my brother just got engageduh a few uh few months ago.
(21:28):
Hey Joe.
And what's his name?
Uh my brother's is Joseph.
Yeah.
And he Joseph, congrats.
Yes.
And what's funny is when he wasbuying his uh his engagement
ring, he was like, you know, I Iconnected him with a jeweler and
he builds this custom thing.
I was like, Oh, so what'd you dofor your um your wedding band?
(21:50):
And he's like, Oh, you know, wehaven't we haven't started on
that.
And I'm just like, huh, I wouldhave started on that.
I feel like that's like the thenext thing because you're
probably gonna get marriedrelatively soon.
But I guess I wanted to askabout uh you you mentioned the
the instant answers.
You can control that as much aspossible.
What about if someone is in thisbuilder and then they need they
(22:11):
just need a little bit of timeto think about it?
Is there a way for them to takeum, you know, either a render or
something with with them andthen walk away and maybe look at
it a little bit longer?
What's that kind of leave behindlike?
SPEAKER_00 (22:22):
Yeah.
So first of all, they have theability to do that whether they
are online in your storecompletely on their own, um, at
home at 2 a.m., as I saidbefore, or next to you, they can
tell you I need more time andthey can save the design for
later.
And what will happen is that umthey'll you'll you as a retailer
will receive a beautifullybranded asset with the image,
the summary of the design sofar, the diamond, the design,
(22:46):
every single aspect of it is allsaved with the beautiful
pictures and assets that we areable to generate, including a
recap of the pricing.
And you'll be able to take that.
It's branded with your own logoas an independent jeweler.
And by the way, this is true ofeverything CaratWise that
CaratWise is not acustomer-facing brand.
We are your supply chainpartner, we are your design
technology partner, but we'resitting behind your brand, where
(23:06):
we've got to match your UI, yourUX, your colors, your fonts,
your logos, even the shape ofyour buttons is something that
we will adjust to.
But eventually, uh, what willhappen is that you will be able
to take that save design andtext it to your customer,
WhatsApp it to them, email it tothem, say, Michael, thank you
for coming earlier today.
This is where we left off.
Go and show it to this, to do toyour future sister-in-law if
(23:28):
this is what he told you.
And then you can pick up fromthere.
So you're able to, and we'reeven able to do that from the
online.
So that customer can be online,save the design for later.
We'll capture the lead, theircell phone number, uh, we'll
provide it to you um for freecompletely, and you'll be able
to clientele that customer andcall them and say, Michael, you
were all on my website yesterdaynight, and you designed this
beautiful pear-shaped halo uhengagering in yellow gold.
(23:51):
Do you want to come in andfinish this in store?
SPEAKER_02 (23:53):
Wow.
So, from all of our discussionsabout user experience, I know
you just went to several uhjewelry shows and you have even
more coming up with uh JCK justaround the bend.
Uh, what has the reaction been?
Because I know that user testingand user interviews are
important.
Granted, this is a this is astrange one because you are kind
(24:15):
of designing it for a differentB2C.
You have like two differentusers.
You have you know the retailerand then you have the shopper.
What are you seeing as far aslike usage?
Anything surprise you when itcomes to like how people are
using it?
What stood out?
SPEAKER_00 (24:32):
Yeah, no, I mean the reaction has been honestly uh
overwhelmingly good.
Uh and and when we when we'reworking on that, because our and
my personal background is inretail, I really am building a
tool that I know consumers willcare about.
Yes.
So everything visually speaking,UI UX-wise, we build it, we we
(24:53):
build it for consumers, but thenevery feature, and I don't like
to use that word because itsounds so techy, and I know
Michael, you're a techie, butfor the sake of discussion,
every feature is built for thejeweler.
So the visualization and the UIis made for conversion, is made
for consumers, which means alsoit's super friendly and easy to
train your staff on it.
Because if it's supposed to befriendly for a consumer, it's
(25:13):
definitely friendly for asalesperson, right?
But every feature is builttowards targeting that friction
that I've we've discussedthroughout the entire podcast at
this point to enable theindependent jewelers to feel to
feel that momentum.
SPEAKER_02 (25:27):
You know, I'm really starting to see that the one of
the assets that I feel likeisn't talked about enough in in
a jewelry uh store you kind ofslept on is like the need for an
iPad um or just like a tablet ofsome sort.
Is that where you when you weredesigning this, is it for a
collaborative like desktopexperience?
Do you think it's is ideal or isit intended to like you know
(25:50):
have on a tablet and be able tokind of like walk through and
have them clicking the buttonsand have it discussed like that?
Where did you like start from inthe conceptual stage?
SPEAKER_00 (26:00):
Yeah, 100%.
That's the exact so at itsstrongest, it's on an iPad in
between you and your customers,right?
And you guys are playingtogether and it's super
intuitive and they can click andplay and turn around and take
the ring in every direction andlook at it from the top and the
bottom and play with it.
Uh, the only thing we're askingjewelers is even though it's
working on mobile, like don't doit on mobile with your customer.
(26:21):
I mean, your customer is goingto do it on mobile.
Your customer is gonna do it onmobile when they're home, and
that's fine, and it's workinggreat.
But when they're in a store, beon a desktop computer, be on an
iPad, an iPad is great becauseyou can give it to them, right?
That's what's amazing about theiPad that you can hand it over
to them and they can startplaying on their own.
And the more they touch and playon their own, the much the more
(26:41):
they get emotionally attached tothat design.
And once they get emotionallyattached, they love the design,
they love you, obviously,because they they walked in.
You are their local jewelry.
They already love you, theyalready want to work with you.
Now that's it.
Uh, there's no reason for themto consider any other places to
buy their engagement from.
SPEAKER_02 (26:59):
Yeah, it's very uh cool to be able to see so many
uh jewelry stores andcollaborate with jewelers.
I have a local jewelry storedown here.
Um, their previous owners werevery close to me.
Uh, the previous owner actuallyum sold me a house, which is
pretty cool.
And but very much uh more oflike a relic of like um a
(27:19):
slightly older age where it wasall about just the number of
display cases and um you knowjust having the jewelry kind of
in front of you.
It was less about like thiscollaborative experience.
Now I'm starting to see a lotmore stores that have a
designated like consultationlocation where it's you know,
like a coffee table, two orthree chairs, maybe nicely lit,
(27:43):
just very casual, maybe coffeenearby.
Uh, I'm starting to see is thatin user experience, we discuss
um environment a lot.
It do you guys take into accountor think about um the feeling
and like what that thatconsultation will look like uh
as well, uh as well as thebuilder?
SPEAKER_00 (28:02):
Yeah, yeah, 100%.
So we have a as I said, thevisualization is made for
intuition, but every feature isdesigned for that conversation.
It is designed for that coffeetable you just described.
I'm a firm believer in thatlocation within the retail
store.
I think it's extremelyimportant.
It creates a lot of things.
Yes, it takes away from cases,but like how many cases do you
(28:23):
really need?
Yeah.
And what's really nice, what'sreally nice about that the
coffee table is that everyonewalking around the store, when
you have other customers, cansee that something's going on at
this coffee table.
Something's exciting there,something is you know really
cool and correct.
And and the best consultationrooms I've seen is when there's
also a TV that you know mirrorswhat's on the iPad and what's on
(28:45):
the desktop.
And the entire store now can seewhat's happening with the design
session, that creates uh anincredible experience in the
store because it's just like adynamic.
And we all know when we see astore that is empty, we don't
want to walk in.
But when we see a store, there'slike something's going on,
there's a little bit of uh someaction happening.
So I believe I'm a firm believerin that in that design uh
(29:06):
location within within stores,which allows me to say that if
you come to JCK and visit us, umyou will likely see other
verticals of jewelry besidesengagement and wedding bands,
right?
No promises yet, but um it's notonly about custom is not only
about bridal.
It is obviously about bridal,but custom is about a little bit
more than that as well.
SPEAKER_02 (29:27):
Yeah, I was gonna I was gonna ask, and I don't want
you to have to get too deep intoit and have your uh your CTO mad
at you because I totally mad atme.
This is gone.
I was gonna say is um I findthat I find that a lot of custom
is focused around engagementrings.
And as someone that is is notshopping for engagement rings
right now, uh I sometimes wonderif these custom jewelers are
(29:50):
kind of and I don't want to saypigeonholing because obviously
it is the you know the the mainfocus, like the real chase.
Uh is there anywhere that youhope to expand to next when it
comes to to custom design?
I like just off the top of myhead, I I find that uh things
related to bracelets is isreally interesting because
there's a lot of options andlike how you can do it.
(30:12):
Uh where would you want to gonext?
SPEAKER_00 (30:14):
Yeah, so I'm gonna give a uh uh you know a
shameful, shameless uh plug tomy own LinkedIn profile.
Go and read my LinkedIn profile,guys and uh and ladies.
I just wrote about it.
Yes, I believe custom is muchmore than engagement.
Um, I think you know, I'll takethe example of tennis bracelets,
which you gave.
What lab ground created is a newdynamic, right?
(30:36):
So round was the shape foralmost everything in the world
of natural.
It would be the shape forengagement, but it would be the
shape for studs and tennisbracelets, etc.
What lab ground did is actuallyround went down, but it's not as
if another shape went upspecifically.
It's all the other shapes thatwent up, which means inventory
is now impossible to cover.
You cannot cover with inventoryall the metals, all the metals,
(30:57):
the gold, the color of themetals, the shapes, the
marquees, the total carrotweights.
And then in the world of tennisbracelets, uh what it is seven
inches, six and a half inches,five inches, five and a half
inches.
It's impossible to cover this.
Impossible.
So what I would say is caratiseis not is not supposed to
replace all of your cases,right?
It's a your cases should be fullof your best-selling designs
(31:17):
that you know you'll be able toturn and you'll be able to
utilize that that that umfinancial commitment you are you
have towards that inventory.
I mean, when you don't have itin the case, having a tool such
as carrot wise for bridal andeventually for more than bridal
would allow you to always knowyou're covered, right?
Two to three weeks later, I canget you almost anything you're
asking of me.
And that's really, reallyinteresting.
SPEAKER_02 (31:39):
Yeah, I I find that the discussion is increasingly
about boiling down your um yourinventory and your case displays
to fewer brands and moreoptions.
So a lot of the times it's it'suh at least from the the
discussions I've had, is l uhfewer people are having these um
(32:02):
buy right out of the case whenit comes to I mean, granted they
are, but um right out of thecase, a lot of the times it's
like, oh, I want to have this,but I want uh you know a tweak
on it.
And as a result, that it givesit that um you know that luxury
experience.
And I'm finding that the brandsthat are able to cater to that,
it it's like having you know 15or 20 more display cases if you
(32:27):
have that custom experience.
And not only that, it it buys,it's truly theirs.
It's not just some, you know,the stock uh product.
It now it's tailored to them,even if it's something as simple
as just you know changing themetal or or adding a different
type of uh stone to it.
I totally agree.
SPEAKER_00 (32:43):
Yeah, 100%.
SPEAKER_02 (32:45):
Now, David, if people are interested, give it
one more plug.
And um, are you gonna be you'regoing to be at JCK and uh giving
demos?
SPEAKER_00 (32:53):
Yeah, we'll get we're gonna be at JCK, we're
gonna be at AGS as well inSeptember.
We're gonna be at the mostimportant in-person event of the
year, which is the punchmarkwork workshop.
SPEAKER_02 (33:02):
I mean, crazy.
SPEAKER_00 (33:03):
Uh listen, I think we're 95% there, Michael.
So I think I can say it in thepodcast that we're 95% uh going
to the punchmark workshop.
So if you guys don't know whatthe punchmark workshop, uh
Michael will tell you all aboutit, but uh we'll be there as
well.
We'll be at other buying groups.
Uh we we went to CBG in Miami,we'll likely be at CBG in Las
Vegas, and there's plenty more.
If you go to the events page onour website on carrotwise.com,
(33:27):
you'll be able to see all theevents we're going to.
Once we are confirmed a fewweeks before, we will open up uh
demo slots specifically for eachevent.
They they tend to get filled upquite quickly.
So I would recommend you go andyou book them.
And in general, you want to seeit before uh you see us in
person, go to carrotwise.com,right?
Request a demo right here andthere.
The website is full ofinformation about what we do.
(33:49):
There's also all thevisualization that I've
discussed before, even thoughit's a trimmed-down version of
it.
Um, you can start understandingwhat we're all about and what we
do.
You can preview the renders.
Uh yeah, carrotwise.com.
As easy as that.
Request a demo.
SPEAKER_02 (34:02):
That's awesome.
And if you're a punchmarkclient, we have uh a uh native
integration that's rolling outright now.
And uh if you end up getting ademo, maybe let them know in the
loop senior.
It makes this look good.
Um, anything else, David, beforewe wrap up?
SPEAKER_00 (34:17):
No, thank you, Michael, so much for the for the
opportunity.
I really appreciate it.
Uh it's uh it's a greatopportunity to work with
Punchmark in general, to workwith you.
And um, we're very lucky to havepartners such as yourself.
SPEAKER_02 (34:27):
Awesome.
Well, thank you so much,everybody, for listening.
We'll be back next week,Tuesday, with another episode.
Cheers.
Bye.
All right, everybody.
That's the end of the show.
Thanks so much for listening.
This week, my guest was DavidVerdugo with Carrowise.
Make sure you check them out inthe show notes below.
(34:50):
This episode was brought to youby Punchmark and produced and
hosted by me, Michael Burpa.
This episode was edited by PaulSuarez with music by Ross
Cochran.
Don't forget to rate the podcaston Spotify and Apple Podcasts
and leave us feedback onpunchmark.com slash loop.
That's L O U P E.
Thanks, and we'll be back nextweek Tuesday with another
episode.
Cheers.
(35:10):
Bye.
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