January 29, 2024 • 29 mins
What’s preventing you from being inclusive? Is it judgment? Fear? Bias? Do you just not know where to start? That’s okay! Risha Grant’s super power is radical candor so she’s joining today’s show to tell you exactly how to practice self acceptance and have conversations that matter.
At Metlife, we are committed to diversity, equity and inclusion and we believe making a difference in the lives of our customers, community, and the world around us is #AllTogetherPossible. Learn more and join us at MetLife.com.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
I think that we can all admit to and we can all say
I can be better than the BSthat's holding me back.
And it doesn't just hold youback in diversity, it holds you
back in life.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
This is Inclusion Begins With Me Conversations
that Matter.
I'm your host, dr Cindy Pace,vice President and Global Chief
Diversity, equity and InclusionOfficer at MetLife.
Our podcast examines thepivotal role people play in
(00:39):
creating inclusive workplacesthat are built for the future.
How does inclusion impact ourwell-being?
Why is it a business imperative?
In each episode, we weavetogether storytelling and
research-driven conversationswith globally recognized authors
, experts and DEI practitioners.
(01:00):
On the show, we tackle stepsthat each of us can take to
advance DEI.
Judgment, Fear, bias, notknowing where to start.
We have so many excuses thatprevent us from being inclusive,
but Risha Grant is here to tellus to stop the BS work on
(01:26):
ourselves and practice radical,radical and non-violent work.
Stop the BS work on ourselvesand practice radical acceptance.
As you listen to this episodeand as you hear Risha's story, I
want you to think about whereyou might carry judgment,
(01:49):
consider why, and treat yourselfwith grace and radical
acceptance as you work onletting go of those feelings.
I think Risha's superpower isradical candor.
Get ready for an episode wherewe tell you exactly how to have
(02:11):
conversations that matter.
You know the producers and Iwhen we're not producing, we're
having conversations and we talka lot about superheroes.
So you probably would haveheard some episodes where we've
(02:31):
talked about the Power Rangers.
We talk about the Avengers.
We're all we are just reallyfascinated.
I love it.
So, thinking about the Avengers.
Since you are a fan of theAvengers, you know there's an
origin story.
So, for Avenger Risha, what isyour origin story?
How did you come to this work?
Speaker 1 (02:53):
It is a great question, and I came to this
work in high school, actually,and I've been out of high school
, I think, 31 years now, and soI'm from a predominantly small
white town in Oklahoma, and youknow, even when you're not from,
you know, predominantly whitetown.
The way history is taught to usis in a way that doesn't give
(03:16):
you much to appreciate aboutblack people or people of color,
or you know just about anyonethat does not fit into being a
white person or a white male,and so I would sit in these
history classes and learn aboutthe history of black people, but
it always revolved aroundslavery.
And then there was, of course,martin Luther King, sir John
(03:36):
O'Trues, rosa Parks right, andMalcolm X.
Those were your, your mainpeople, and I remember there
being a part about Cleopatrathat we were learning and one of
my best friends said oh yeah,cleopatra was black, and the
history teacher and the studentsare there.
It became this debate, and so Iremember sitting there thinking
, okay, there's one personthat's not a slave, that's not.
(03:57):
You know, that was this superimportant person Back in the day
and we've got to have a debateabout.
You know, you're not even gonnalet us have that.
And so from that point on, Ijust began to write every paper
that where I was able to choosethe topic, I wanted to educate
other people and myself aboutwhat the contributions were of
(04:18):
black people.
And so as I got older, you know,got into college, and all that
I realized, well, black folksaren't the only ones struggling
here.
So that's how I got todiversity.
But once I got in college, Iremember talking to an advisor
and I didn't want to be ateacher.
It's like what can I do withyou know my love of black
history?
(04:38):
And I remember her saying youknow what?
There's a group or a troop thatyou can join, where they are
going around and putting onplays, and they dressed up like
Harriet Tubman and I thoughtI'll pass.
I was like I'll pass, I don'twant to spend my life dressed up
like Harriet.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Tubman.
We thank you, harriet, you knowwhat I'm saying.
We thank you for theunderground railroad, but I
don't want to you know, I don'twant to do that.
I'm not trying to do that.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
And so I was like how do I marry my love of
communications with my love ofblack history?
And I remember doing someresearch and I was too young and
bold to know that I didn't knowanything it was.
It was actually a superpower.
I didn't know anything, but Igot all this research together
and I just started calling everyPR firm for my degrees in
(05:24):
communications.
And so I just started callingevery PR firm and saying, hey,
you need to add a multiculturalarm onto your farm and I'm going
to run it.
Never mind that I've never readit before, but I got this.
I got it though.
Trust me, I got it.
They were all just like, yeah,you know, I was all of all of 22
, 23 years old and it startedfrom there.
(05:46):
But I never.
I dug in and I thought Istarted meeting with other
people from the Hispaniccommunity, from the LGBT plus
community, and realized that,hey, this is not just about one
group of people, this is reallyabout all of us.
And so it's been something thatI've been committed to for
pretty much all of my adult life.
(06:06):
Once I once I realized I wasnot going to be a WNBA player.
I dug in First half of my lifeas basketball.
I went to Kansas State on afull basketball scholarship.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Oh, I want, I really want to go into that and I wish
we had gone to school together,because I was the kid that
nobody wanted on their team.
Had we been together, I knowyou would have helped me.
But say more Risha about howbasketball has helped you in
business, has helped you in yourlife.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Basketball is everything Business has been.
So hard it is truly.
I started the first diversitycommunications firm in the state
of Oklahoma.
Wow, and when I tell you thatI've been doing this 25 years
now and Long before it was hotyou know, long before it was in
in a place like Oklahoma made itvery difficult you start to
(07:01):
lose your worth.
You know.
You start to say, okay, nobodycares about what I'm talking
about, people don't understandthe importance of this.
But in all of that, whileyou're trying to sell it, you're
also devaluing your price anddevaluing all these things.
So basketball was that thingthat taught me.
No, you don't settle for this.
(07:22):
No, you lost.
Go figure out how to win.
So I just sat back and did whatI did in basketball.
I practiced the thing every daythat I needed to do.
So I would get up and be in theoffice at 6 am every morning
with no clients and just andthis is going to age me but I
would get the phone book out andjust start calling.
You know, one thing I learnedwas that I was selling diversity
(07:42):
as the right thing to do.
People didn't care there was aright thing to do, they cared
about their bottom line.
Finding that research 25 yearsago was insane.
There was one company that.
What was it?
The Sealick Center, I believe,for economic growth.
I think the University ofGeorgia.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Yes, yes, the multicultural marketing report.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Yes, that was the only place in the world that you
could find any informationrelated to try to build that
business case for diversity.
So once I figured out, okay,this is what I have, I remember
buying the CD wrong you know andtrying to pull all those stats
out.
So it taught me to prepare.
(08:22):
It taught me to strategize.
It taught me to figure out howto win.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
What you're talking about is important, and having
an understanding of why you'rein this work.
So you know, as you talkedearlier about your purpose, and
your purpose was to do, you know, to be able to educate, to be
able to communicate theimportance of diversity, equity
and inclusion.
Have that intersection ofcommunication and DEI, which is
(08:51):
rare.
There are not a lot of firms orpeople like yourself doing this
work.
How did you expand into writingbooks and becoming an
international speaker?
Speaker 1 (09:07):
I always wanted to be a speaker.
I always wanted to write a book.
I Always wanted to own a sevenfigure business.
Now, it took me 25 years to getthere and In 2016, I literally
had had enough.
I was done.
I was Overdi.
I was over people.
I was business was not.
It just didn't feel likeanything was working, mm-hmm.
(09:28):
And so I started on my firstbook.
Gosh, I don't know, I was 10years prior to that and I
remember one of my best friendslived in Dallas and she's an
editor and I sent the book toher and she sent it back with
and we have a really interestingrelationship she sent it back
with all these red marks.
It's like she used a redSharpie and just went through
(09:49):
the thing and she just like litinto me about all this stuff.
So when I got, I pulled outthat and I saw all the red not
just through the thing in thecabinet For this.
And so all these years passedby, I 2016 happens and I
realized that this is not goingthe way that I think it should
(10:10):
go.
I'm tired, I'm not, doesn'tlook like I'm going to to hit
these goals, and so I I Pulledthat book out, I closed my
office doors and when I did that, I had to get rid of half of
the book and I sat there in thehouse for like a week.
I mean, I didn't open the blinds, I turned the phone off.
I got up at 5 am and I wrotethat other half of the book and
(10:35):
I had to.
You know, you hear all the time, don't let perfect be the enemy
of good.
Oh and so yeah.
So I, because I'm very, and Ithink, as a black woman, in the
way that I was raised, I'm verylate.
It has to be the best it couldbe.
It has to be perfect.
But I didn't have the time northe resources to wait on that.
(10:56):
So so I got the book together,I had a few people read it and
made a few more changes.
I hired an editor and I putthat thing out and I thought, if
I can, if I can start speaking,I could sell this in the back
of the room.
So then I called a speakersbureau that had seen me speak
about three or four yearsearlier and they were very
interested in me, but I didn'thave any video, so I called them
(11:17):
back to see if they were stillinterested.
I end up getting this woman onthe phone who was doing some
work for them.
She doesn't actually work forthem, but that's who they had to
reach out to me.
We formed a relationship.
One story short, she said, hey,I represent a few speakers, I'm
done with the project here andso I just want to let you know
that I'm leaving, and I justwant to leave you hanging.
And I said wait, can I go withyou, you know?
(11:38):
And she was like well, yeah,I'm very small, only have two
other speakers.
I've been working in thisbusiness for a long time and I
mean we work together, just Imean seamlessly.
And she said give me a year andwe're gonna do this and you
need to do this.
And I did all the stuff shetold me to do.
And she did all the stuffbecause she had to learn about
(11:58):
DI.
And here we are, five yearslater with a multi,
multi-million-dollar company.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Look, at that.
Look at listen.
I have to go back to this quotebecause this, this was a mic
drop moment.
Okay, don't let perfect Be theenemy of good.
Yes, let's just sit with thatfor a second.
We need to have that.
Okay, do you have merch?
Speaker 1 (12:24):
because you need to merge this.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
You need.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
I don't even know where I heard that it's it is,
but think about how many timeswe don't put things out.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Yeah, because it's not, and I've had to.
I am a recovering perfectionist.
Yes, because it does come backsometimes.
But that getting to Good orgood enough, mm-hmm, that is
actually what gets you to makeit even better, because you
can't always, you don't alwayshave the answer by yourself,
(12:54):
right?
It's like when it gets out andgets socialized and gets used,
then you're like, oh okay, I seehow I can do this, this and
this.
It's almost like an iterativeprocess.
But if you let perfect Hmm,don't let perfect be the enemy
of good.
Yes, we're going to keep thatwith us.
(13:15):
So so, richard, you haveanother book coming out.
It is out, it's out, so thebook is out.
Okay, so the book is out.
Tell us about the book, and whydid you think it was important
to put the book out now?
Speaker 1 (13:32):
So the book is called be better than your BS Mm-hmm,
and it's how radical acceptanceEmpowers authenticity and
creates a workplace culture ofinclusion.
And I thought it was superimportant because I've been at
it 25 years Now.
I've seen a lot of stuff.
I've gone through my own BS.
The one thing that was constant, no matter who I was talking to
(13:52):
or what company I was I wasconsulting with or speaking for,
there was a lot of bulls***going on.
Bs, I mean BS and that and itnow in my first book.
Bs stood for for bias the naps,and this book it stands for
bias fear and I will believesystems.
But at the end of all of thatis the bulls*** Mm-hmm, because
(14:17):
we learn in our bias fear that'sa term I coined.
That is really about the peopleand the Institutions that we're
steeped in since birth.
Right, those circles ofinfluence.
So first your family.
You know, I like to think of itas we were born with a clean
slate.
We come to this one with aclean state, but the people in
our lives download images ontothat slate for us.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
We are told how to think, act and feel from the
moment we're born.
The people around us areparents, grandparents, friends,
communities offer their opinionson topics from what religion we
should be To, who should wetalk to and what school we
(15:06):
should go to.
That's not always a bad thing,but we have to be careful to
consider what to do with thisadvice.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
We get stuck in.
Grandma said, mama said, daddysaid this happened to them.
So I should not like this groupof people, I should be
mistrustful of this group ofpeople.
Now, I'm not saying that thosethings aren't important.
What I am saying is you cannotcarry something to happen to
grandma on 1920 up until my 10thto 2023, intrigue people as if
they're the ones that createdthe offense and I know that's
(15:41):
not a popular saying, becauseyou got a lot of people of color
out there saying wait a minute,because of what happened, I'm
not benefiting and I don't havethe same advantages.
So I'm not saying that thosethings don't matter, but what
I'm saying is we got to place itin the right place, mm-hmm.
So I I'll tell everybody I had amistrust of white folks and I
still struggle with it to thisday because of the things that
(16:04):
that I've been through.
But also, had I not beenwilling to get to know Shannon,
which is my speaking agent, Iprobably wouldn't be sitting
here with you today, because Ihad to get over the BS of the
mistrust of all of the thethings that I felt around white
folks.
I had to do that for my entirebusiness, because if I'm going,
I'm going into every meetingwith this thought of Okay, I
(16:26):
don't even know why I'm talkingto these white folks, they don't
care, they ain't gonna get it.
That may be true for a lot ofthem, but then there's somebody
that says no, richard, thisreally makes sense.
How can I support you?
So I think that we can alladmit to, we can all say I can
be better than the BS that'sholding me back.
Right, and it doesn't just holdyou back in diversity, it holds
(16:48):
you back in life.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
It does, because you know, to your point and I liked
how you framed we come into theworld with a clean slate right.
And then there, that's why Ialways say, culture is learned
Very much.
We are born, we are born intoculture and we are born and born
and born again, becauseCultures shift.
(17:10):
Whether you know your highschool versus your college, your
first job, the community thatyou grow up in, if you move and
go to another, that's anotherculture.
And so if we don't to yourpoint and it reminds me of the
transformational learning theorywhich is around these habits of
(17:31):
mind that we form and if wedon't critically question how we
came to know what we think weknow, we're really kind of
operating on an autopilot, weare operating in the land of
assumptions.
And so that you know the workthat you're talking about, we
(17:53):
need to do in the book, you gointo this concept of us really
understanding judgment.
And I think that's what you'vetalked about a bit here is let's
level set on this.
When you think about judgment.
How are you defining that,risha?
How should we be thinking aboutjudgment and how it shows up in
(18:18):
the workplace and impacts ourability to be inclusive and
create the conditions for peopleto feel like they belong?
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Judgment is all around forming an opinion, but I
believe that we form thoseopinions based on very limited
knowledge about people.
Okay, you know, we will look atsomeone, we will size them up,
and I always have my audiencesdo this exercise.
You're on an airplane, they'veannounced that the flight's
completely full, but that middleseat next to you is open, so we
all do that silent prayer.
(18:47):
Please don't sit here.
Please don't sit here, right,Because we've all done it.
We are all guilty.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
I'm the one put in the middle seat.
Okay, I swear they look at myprofile.
They're like, oh, she's apetite person.
Yes, in the middle seat.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Yeah, but we don't want.
We look at people in three tofive seconds and we judge them
based on what they're wearing.
Maybe they have tattooseverywhere.
Maybe they have diet hair,maybe they have piercings
everywhere.
Maybe they have a kid with them, right Whatever it is, or maybe
they're obese.
We make judgments so quicklyabout people.
When it comes to the workplace,we are making those same
(19:23):
judgments about people and it isaffecting the way that we treat
them.
So, if I don't like your skincolor, I don't like who you
sleep with that night.
Maybe I don't like the way youtalk, I don't like the fact that
you're from a small town, Idon't like the way you dress.
That can impede someone'sprogress and upper mobility at
work, because not only are wejudging them, but we are then
(19:46):
displaying behaviors that arestopping them from living to
their full extent.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
These are the moments where we have to be better than
RBS and focus on the factorsthat matter at work.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
It doesn't matter what you think.
At the end of the day, are theydoing the job that you hire
them to do?
Are they doing that job well?
Speaker 2 (20:07):
I like that.
Risha, tell us what we can do.
I know we need to.
First of all, we need to all goget the book right.
We can be better than our BS.
Okay, and we wanna share, so wewanna have conversations with
each other.
One of the things that wehighly recommend is that people
(20:29):
learn together.
So starting your own bookcircle where you're coming
together, you talk about thebook, listen to this episode of
the podcast and talk about thosekey things that you're learning
and hold each other accountablefor something you're going to
do to change.
(20:50):
Can you give us one or twonuggets on how we can address
our judgment, our biases?
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Yes, first and foremost, my big answer there is
radical acceptance.
That is really what the maintheme of my book and radical
acceptance is.
Yes, it is the practice ofwelcoming and embracing people's
full humanity, including ourown, with no BS.
So what that means is thatpeople get to be who they are.
(21:28):
They get to authentically showup as who they are.
It is not their job to dealwith your BS, it's your job to
deal with it.
So think about who makes youuncomfortable and why, when you
get on an elevator and someonegets on with you who makes you
kinda, you know, shrink in thecorner and pull your personal
items in closer, that when thathappens to me, I make a
different behavioral decision inthe moment.
(21:50):
Instead of me like thinkingI'll be glad when this elevator
gets to my floor, I smile andsay, hey, how's your day going?
Nine times out of 10, peoplehave all the stuff going on that
has nothing to do with you.
That 30 seconds on the elevatoryou're gonna find out that this
person is married or has kidsor is dealing with the six
spells, or I mean something isgoing on.
But the fact that you smiledand the fact you know these are
(22:13):
what I call microinclusions thefact that you smiled, the fact
that you opened yourself up, canchange the trajectory of
somebody else's day.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Based on Richa's insights, let's all try to carry
out a microinclusion today.
Say hello to someone you'venever met before.
Send a coworker you usuallydon't talk to a message.
Give a compliment.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
So radical acceptance .
First, you're gonna radicallyaccept yourself.
That is really difficult to do.
There are so many things aboutus that people tell us are wrong
that it's difficult for you totruly be who you are.
Figure out what that is.
Do that thing so that you canlove yourself.
Then you're able to extend thatlove toward others.
And then there's radicalacceptance of others.
(23:01):
You know that means that youare allowing them to be
themselves.
That means that you aretreating them with the humanity
that they deserve.
And then that last one isradical acceptance of the world.
Am I willing to lose everythingin the moment to win humanity in
the end?
You know, because sometimes wehave to be willing to be wrong
(23:22):
in order to get it right.
And people are scared of beingwrong.
They're scared of saying Idon't know.
They're scared of saying, well,I didn't know what to say or
how to say it.
Or you know, and you're stillcomplicit, whether you do or you
don't Right.
So it's like I don't know.
We've forgotten those.
To me, those really basicthings of just interacting with
(23:43):
another person.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
That's what I was going to ask about the
interaction, because one of thethings that I believe with
inclusion is every moment thatwe have, every time we interact
with someone, that is a momentto call in inclusiveness right
To be able to see that personvalue them and respect them.
(24:08):
And it also means that we haveto interact outside of the
people.
We know Right that we have toreally be able and willing to
expand our networks, ourconnections, and we've talked
about connections on the first,in the first season, we had a
(24:28):
couple of great thought leaderscome in and talk to us about the
power of connection andactually the impact on our
central nervous system and, whenwe have feelings of belonging,
feelings of connectedness, howit releases all of the positive
hormones, the endorphins, and itlowers the stress hormones.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Yeah, because it's a basic human need.
It's basic human need.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
But if we can get over that first stress that
you're talking about, thatanxiety and fear that we might
have of the unknown I don't knowthis person.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
And we may not have that trust yet.
But if we can get through thatand, as you say, have this
radical acceptance of ourselvesand our ability to be able to
connect with others, then you'reright, it will make our work
much easier because people willcome into the work valuing being
(25:29):
human beings.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
We can learn a lot from kids, from kids that
haven't been, that we haven'tmessed up yet, right, Right,
because kids will go and playwith each other.
They don't care about skincolor until you tell them to
care about it.
They don't care about what youhave on until you tell them to
care about it.
So if we would adopt that samething of just going up to a
person at work and saying, hey,how's your day going?
(25:53):
A lot of times, 90% of the time, people have stuff going on
that has nothing to do with you.
They didn't smile at youbecause they don't like you.
They did not smile because theydon't like you.
They didn't smile becausethey're going through some
really tough stuff that hasnothing to do with you and
they're not really even thinkingabout you.
But I think, especially forthose in leadership, when you
(26:14):
accept a leadership position notthat you don't get to be human,
but it does mean that when youdon't feel like smiling, you
still have to smile and sayhello.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
All right as we close out, risha, this has been a
great conversation.
Is there anything that youwanna leave us with that we can
use to be better than our BS?
Speaker 1 (26:35):
I think if I could say anything to anybody, I would
say don't forget to see thehumanity in each other.
We are all going to makemistakes, we're all going to say
the wrong thing at some pointin time.
We're going to go throughthings that are so difficult and
so hard.
But when you can see thehumanity in somebody else, when
(26:56):
you can give them grace as theygo through those things and
maybe you can have aconversation with them.
If something is said in thewrong way, we get so much
further.
Because the reality is, if wedon't figure this out together
and see how we're stronger,we'll perish together Like
nobody's going anywhere.
So let's try to see thehumanity in each other.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
There you have it.
Thank you so much, risha.
It's been a pleasure having youon Inclusion Begins With Me
Conversations that Matter.
Thank you all for joining me onthis episode of Inclusion
(27:43):
Begins With Me Conversationsthat Matter.
You can learn more about RishaGrant and all of our guests at
MetLifecom.
At MetLife, we are committed todiversity, equity and inclusion
, and we believe making adifference in the lives of our
customers, community and theworld around us is altogether
(28:09):
possible.
Learn more and join us atmetlifecom.
The link is in our show notes.
Please don't forget tosubscribe to our podcast
(28:29):
Inclusion Begins With MeConversations that Matter, on
Apple Podcast or wherever youlisten to podcasts.
I hope you also take the timeto rate and leave our show a
review Before we go.
We'd like to thank our podcastpartner, human Group Media, who
helped us produce this show.
That's it for today's episode.
(28:50):
I hope you join me in the nextone.
I think that we can all admit to and we can all say
I can be better than the BSthat's holding me back.
And it doesn't just hold youback in diversity, it holds you
back in life.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
This is Inclusion Begins With Me Conversations
that Matter.
I'm your host, dr Cindy Pace,vice President and Global Chief
Diversity, equity and InclusionOfficer at MetLife.
Our podcast examines thepivotal role people play in
(00:39):
creating inclusive workplacesthat are built for the future.
How does inclusion impact ourwell-being?
Why is it a business imperative?
In each episode, we weavetogether storytelling and
research-driven conversationswith globally recognized authors
, experts and DEI practitioners.
(01:00):
On the show, we tackle stepsthat each of us can take to
advance DEI.
Judgment, Fear, bias, notknowing where to start.
We have so many excuses thatprevent us from being inclusive,
but Risha Grant is here to tellus to stop the BS work on
(01:26):
ourselves and practice radical,radical and non-violent work.
Stop the BS work on ourselvesand practice radical acceptance.
As you listen to this episodeand as you hear Risha's story, I
want you to think about whereyou might carry judgment,
(01:49):
consider why, and treat yourselfwith grace and radical
acceptance as you work onletting go of those feelings.
I think Risha's superpower isradical candor.
Get ready for an episode wherewe tell you exactly how to have
(02:11):
conversations that matter.
You know the producers and Iwhen we're not producing, we're
having conversations and we talka lot about superheroes.
So you probably would haveheard some episodes where we've
(02:31):
talked about the Power Rangers.
We talk about the Avengers.
We're all we are just reallyfascinated.
I love it.
So, thinking about the Avengers.
Since you are a fan of theAvengers, you know there's an
origin story.
So, for Avenger Risha, what isyour origin story?
How did you come to this work?
Speaker 1 (02:53):
It is a great question, and I came to this
work in high school, actually,and I've been out of high school
, I think, 31 years now, and soI'm from a predominantly small
white town in Oklahoma, and youknow, even when you're not from,
you know, predominantly whitetown.
The way history is taught to usis in a way that doesn't give
(03:16):
you much to appreciate aboutblack people or people of color,
or you know just about anyonethat does not fit into being a
white person or a white male,and so I would sit in these
history classes and learn aboutthe history of black people, but
it always revolved aroundslavery.
And then there was, of course,martin Luther King, sir John
(03:36):
O'Trues, rosa Parks right, andMalcolm X.
Those were your, your mainpeople, and I remember there
being a part about Cleopatrathat we were learning and one of
my best friends said oh yeah,cleopatra was black, and the
history teacher and the studentsare there.
It became this debate, and so Iremember sitting there thinking
, okay, there's one personthat's not a slave, that's not.
(03:57):
You know, that was this superimportant person Back in the day
and we've got to have a debateabout.
You know, you're not even gonnalet us have that.
And so from that point on, Ijust began to write every paper
that where I was able to choosethe topic, I wanted to educate
other people and myself aboutwhat the contributions were of
(04:18):
black people.
And so as I got older, you know,got into college, and all that
I realized, well, black folksaren't the only ones struggling
here.
So that's how I got todiversity.
But once I got in college, Iremember talking to an advisor
and I didn't want to be ateacher.
It's like what can I do withyou know my love of black
history?
(04:38):
And I remember her saying youknow what?
There's a group or a troop thatyou can join, where they are
going around and putting onplays, and they dressed up like
Harriet Tubman and I thoughtI'll pass.
I was like I'll pass, I don'twant to spend my life dressed up
like Harriet.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Tubman.
We thank you, harriet, you knowwhat I'm saying.
We thank you for theunderground railroad, but I
don't want to you know, I don'twant to do that.
I'm not trying to do that.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
And so I was like how do I marry my love of
communications with my love ofblack history?
And I remember doing someresearch and I was too young and
bold to know that I didn't knowanything it was.
It was actually a superpower.
I didn't know anything, but Igot all this research together
and I just started calling everyPR firm for my degrees in
(05:24):
communications.
And so I just started callingevery PR firm and saying, hey,
you need to add a multiculturalarm onto your farm and I'm going
to run it.
Never mind that I've never readit before, but I got this.
I got it though.
Trust me, I got it.
They were all just like, yeah,you know, I was all of all of 22
, 23 years old and it startedfrom there.
(05:46):
But I never.
I dug in and I thought Istarted meeting with other
people from the Hispaniccommunity, from the LGBT plus
community, and realized that,hey, this is not just about one
group of people, this is reallyabout all of us.
And so it's been something thatI've been committed to for
pretty much all of my adult life.
(06:06):
Once I once I realized I wasnot going to be a WNBA player.
I dug in First half of my lifeas basketball.
I went to Kansas State on afull basketball scholarship.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Oh, I want, I really want to go into that and I wish
we had gone to school together,because I was the kid that
nobody wanted on their team.
Had we been together, I knowyou would have helped me.
But say more Risha about howbasketball has helped you in
business, has helped you in yourlife.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Basketball is everything Business has been.
So hard it is truly.
I started the first diversitycommunications firm in the state
of Oklahoma.
Wow, and when I tell you thatI've been doing this 25 years
now and Long before it was hotyou know, long before it was in
in a place like Oklahoma made itvery difficult you start to
(07:01):
lose your worth.
You know.
You start to say, okay, nobodycares about what I'm talking
about, people don't understandthe importance of this.
But in all of that, whileyou're trying to sell it, you're
also devaluing your price anddevaluing all these things.
So basketball was that thingthat taught me.
No, you don't settle for this.
(07:22):
No, you lost.
Go figure out how to win.
So I just sat back and did whatI did in basketball.
I practiced the thing every daythat I needed to do.
So I would get up and be in theoffice at 6 am every morning
with no clients and just andthis is going to age me but I
would get the phone book out andjust start calling.
You know, one thing I learnedwas that I was selling diversity
(07:42):
as the right thing to do.
People didn't care there was aright thing to do, they cared
about their bottom line.
Finding that research 25 yearsago was insane.
There was one company that.
What was it?
The Sealick Center, I believe,for economic growth.
I think the University ofGeorgia.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Yes, yes, the multicultural marketing report.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Yes, that was the only place in the world that you
could find any informationrelated to try to build that
business case for diversity.
So once I figured out, okay,this is what I have, I remember
buying the CD wrong you know andtrying to pull all those stats
out.
So it taught me to prepare.
(08:22):
It taught me to strategize.
It taught me to figure out howto win.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
What you're talking about is important, and having
an understanding of why you'rein this work.
So you know, as you talkedearlier about your purpose, and
your purpose was to do, you know, to be able to educate, to be
able to communicate theimportance of diversity, equity
and inclusion.
Have that intersection ofcommunication and DEI, which is
(08:51):
rare.
There are not a lot of firms orpeople like yourself doing this
work.
How did you expand into writingbooks and becoming an
international speaker?
Speaker 1 (09:07):
I always wanted to be a speaker.
I always wanted to write a book.
I Always wanted to own a sevenfigure business.
Now, it took me 25 years to getthere and In 2016, I literally
had had enough.
I was done.
I was Overdi.
I was over people.
I was business was not.
It just didn't feel likeanything was working, mm-hmm.
(09:28):
And so I started on my firstbook.
Gosh, I don't know, I was 10years prior to that and I
remember one of my best friendslived in Dallas and she's an
editor and I sent the book toher and she sent it back with
and we have a really interestingrelationship she sent it back
with all these red marks.
It's like she used a redSharpie and just went through
(09:49):
the thing and she just like litinto me about all this stuff.
So when I got, I pulled outthat and I saw all the red not
just through the thing in thecabinet For this.
And so all these years passedby, I 2016 happens and I
realized that this is not goingthe way that I think it should
(10:10):
go.
I'm tired, I'm not, doesn'tlook like I'm going to to hit
these goals, and so I I Pulledthat book out, I closed my
office doors and when I did that, I had to get rid of half of
the book and I sat there in thehouse for like a week.
I mean, I didn't open the blinds, I turned the phone off.
I got up at 5 am and I wrotethat other half of the book and
(10:35):
I had to.
You know, you hear all the time, don't let perfect be the enemy
of good.
Oh and so yeah.
So I, because I'm very, and Ithink, as a black woman, in the
way that I was raised, I'm verylate.
It has to be the best it couldbe.
It has to be perfect.
But I didn't have the time northe resources to wait on that.
(10:56):
So so I got the book together,I had a few people read it and
made a few more changes.
I hired an editor and I putthat thing out and I thought, if
I can, if I can start speaking,I could sell this in the back
of the room.
So then I called a speakersbureau that had seen me speak
about three or four yearsearlier and they were very
interested in me, but I didn'thave any video, so I called them
(11:17):
back to see if they were stillinterested.
I end up getting this woman onthe phone who was doing some
work for them.
She doesn't actually work forthem, but that's who they had to
reach out to me.
We formed a relationship.
One story short, she said, hey,I represent a few speakers, I'm
done with the project here andso I just want to let you know
that I'm leaving, and I justwant to leave you hanging.
And I said wait, can I go withyou, you know?
(11:38):
And she was like well, yeah,I'm very small, only have two
other speakers.
I've been working in thisbusiness for a long time and I
mean we work together, just Imean seamlessly.
And she said give me a year andwe're gonna do this and you
need to do this.
And I did all the stuff shetold me to do.
And she did all the stuffbecause she had to learn about
(11:58):
DI.
And here we are, five yearslater with a multi,
multi-million-dollar company.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Look, at that.
Look at listen.
I have to go back to this quotebecause this, this was a mic
drop moment.
Okay, don't let perfect Be theenemy of good.
Yes, let's just sit with thatfor a second.
We need to have that.
Okay, do you have merch?
Speaker 1 (12:24):
because you need to merge this.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
You need.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
I don't even know where I heard that it's it is,
but think about how many timeswe don't put things out.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Yeah, because it's not, and I've had to.
I am a recovering perfectionist.
Yes, because it does come backsometimes.
But that getting to Good orgood enough, mm-hmm, that is
actually what gets you to makeit even better, because you
can't always, you don't alwayshave the answer by yourself,
(12:54):
right?
It's like when it gets out andgets socialized and gets used,
then you're like, oh okay, I seehow I can do this, this and
this.
It's almost like an iterativeprocess.
But if you let perfect Hmm,don't let perfect be the enemy
of good.
Yes, we're going to keep thatwith us.
(13:15):
So so, richard, you haveanother book coming out.
It is out, it's out, so thebook is out.
Okay, so the book is out.
Tell us about the book, and whydid you think it was important
to put the book out now?
Speaker 1 (13:32):
So the book is called be better than your BS Mm-hmm,
and it's how radical acceptanceEmpowers authenticity and
creates a workplace culture ofinclusion.
And I thought it was superimportant because I've been at
it 25 years Now.
I've seen a lot of stuff.
I've gone through my own BS.
The one thing that was constant, no matter who I was talking to
(13:52):
or what company I was I wasconsulting with or speaking for,
there was a lot of bulls***going on.
Bs, I mean BS and that and itnow in my first book.
Bs stood for for bias the naps,and this book it stands for
bias fear and I will believesystems.
But at the end of all of thatis the bulls*** Mm-hmm, because
(14:17):
we learn in our bias fear that'sa term I coined.
That is really about the peopleand the Institutions that we're
steeped in since birth.
Right, those circles ofinfluence.
So first your family.
You know, I like to think of itas we were born with a clean
slate.
We come to this one with aclean state, but the people in
our lives download images ontothat slate for us.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
We are told how to think, act and feel from the
moment we're born.
The people around us areparents, grandparents, friends,
communities offer their opinionson topics from what religion we
should be To, who should wetalk to and what school we
(15:06):
should go to.
That's not always a bad thing,but we have to be careful to
consider what to do with thisadvice.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
We get stuck in.
Grandma said, mama said, daddysaid this happened to them.
So I should not like this groupof people, I should be
mistrustful of this group ofpeople.
Now, I'm not saying that thosethings aren't important.
What I am saying is you cannotcarry something to happen to
grandma on 1920 up until my 10thto 2023, intrigue people as if
they're the ones that createdthe offense and I know that's
(15:41):
not a popular saying, becauseyou got a lot of people of color
out there saying wait a minute,because of what happened, I'm
not benefiting and I don't havethe same advantages.
So I'm not saying that thosethings don't matter, but what
I'm saying is we got to place itin the right place, mm-hmm.
So I I'll tell everybody I had amistrust of white folks and I
still struggle with it to thisday because of the things that
(16:04):
that I've been through.
But also, had I not beenwilling to get to know Shannon,
which is my speaking agent, Iprobably wouldn't be sitting
here with you today, because Ihad to get over the BS of the
mistrust of all of the thethings that I felt around white
folks.
I had to do that for my entirebusiness, because if I'm going,
I'm going into every meetingwith this thought of Okay, I
(16:26):
don't even know why I'm talkingto these white folks, they don't
care, they ain't gonna get it.
That may be true for a lot ofthem, but then there's somebody
that says no, richard, thisreally makes sense.
How can I support you?
So I think that we can alladmit to, we can all say I can
be better than the BS that'sholding me back.
Right, and it doesn't just holdyou back in diversity, it holds
(16:48):
you back in life.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
It does, because you know, to your point and I liked
how you framed we come into theworld with a clean slate right.
And then there, that's why Ialways say, culture is learned
Very much.
We are born, we are born intoculture and we are born and born
and born again, becauseCultures shift.
(17:10):
Whether you know your highschool versus your college, your
first job, the community thatyou grow up in, if you move and
go to another, that's anotherculture.
And so if we don't to yourpoint and it reminds me of the
transformational learning theorywhich is around these habits of
(17:31):
mind that we form and if wedon't critically question how we
came to know what we think weknow, we're really kind of
operating on an autopilot, weare operating in the land of
assumptions.
And so that you know the workthat you're talking about, we
(17:53):
need to do in the book, you gointo this concept of us really
understanding judgment.
And I think that's what you'vetalked about a bit here is let's
level set on this.
When you think about judgment.
How are you defining that,risha?
How should we be thinking aboutjudgment and how it shows up in
(18:18):
the workplace and impacts ourability to be inclusive and
create the conditions for peopleto feel like they belong?
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Judgment is all around forming an opinion, but I
believe that we form thoseopinions based on very limited
knowledge about people.
Okay, you know, we will look atsomeone, we will size them up,
and I always have my audiencesdo this exercise.
You're on an airplane, they'veannounced that the flight's
completely full, but that middleseat next to you is open, so we
all do that silent prayer.
(18:47):
Please don't sit here.
Please don't sit here, right,Because we've all done it.
We are all guilty.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
I'm the one put in the middle seat.
Okay, I swear they look at myprofile.
They're like, oh, she's apetite person.
Yes, in the middle seat.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Yeah, but we don't want.
We look at people in three tofive seconds and we judge them
based on what they're wearing.
Maybe they have tattooseverywhere.
Maybe they have diet hair,maybe they have piercings
everywhere.
Maybe they have a kid with them, right Whatever it is, or maybe
they're obese.
We make judgments so quicklyabout people.
When it comes to the workplace,we are making those same
(19:23):
judgments about people and it isaffecting the way that we treat
them.
So, if I don't like your skincolor, I don't like who you
sleep with that night.
Maybe I don't like the way youtalk, I don't like the fact that
you're from a small town, Idon't like the way you dress.
That can impede someone'sprogress and upper mobility at
work, because not only are wejudging them, but we are then
(19:46):
displaying behaviors that arestopping them from living to
their full extent.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
These are the moments where we have to be better than
RBS and focus on the factorsthat matter at work.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
It doesn't matter what you think.
At the end of the day, are theydoing the job that you hire
them to do?
Are they doing that job well?
Speaker 2 (20:07):
I like that.
Risha, tell us what we can do.
I know we need to.
First of all, we need to all goget the book right.
We can be better than our BS.
Okay, and we wanna share, so wewanna have conversations with
each other.
One of the things that wehighly recommend is that people
(20:29):
learn together.
So starting your own bookcircle where you're coming
together, you talk about thebook, listen to this episode of
the podcast and talk about thosekey things that you're learning
and hold each other accountablefor something you're going to
do to change.
(20:50):
Can you give us one or twonuggets on how we can address
our judgment, our biases?
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Yes, first and foremost, my big answer there is
radical acceptance.
That is really what the maintheme of my book and radical
acceptance is.
Yes, it is the practice ofwelcoming and embracing people's
full humanity, including ourown, with no BS.
So what that means is thatpeople get to be who they are.
(21:28):
They get to authentically showup as who they are.
It is not their job to dealwith your BS, it's your job to
deal with it.
So think about who makes youuncomfortable and why, when you
get on an elevator and someonegets on with you who makes you
kinda, you know, shrink in thecorner and pull your personal
items in closer, that when thathappens to me, I make a
different behavioral decision inthe moment.
(21:50):
Instead of me like thinkingI'll be glad when this elevator
gets to my floor, I smile andsay, hey, how's your day going?
Nine times out of 10, peoplehave all the stuff going on that
has nothing to do with you.
That 30 seconds on the elevatoryou're gonna find out that this
person is married or has kidsor is dealing with the six
spells, or I mean something isgoing on.
But the fact that you smiledand the fact you know these are
(22:13):
what I call microinclusions thefact that you smiled, the fact
that you opened yourself up, canchange the trajectory of
somebody else's day.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Based on Richa's insights, let's all try to carry
out a microinclusion today.
Say hello to someone you'venever met before.
Send a coworker you usuallydon't talk to a message.
Give a compliment.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
So radical acceptance .
First, you're gonna radicallyaccept yourself.
That is really difficult to do.
There are so many things aboutus that people tell us are wrong
that it's difficult for you totruly be who you are.
Figure out what that is.
Do that thing so that you canlove yourself.
Then you're able to extend thatlove toward others.
And then there's radicalacceptance of others.
(23:01):
You know that means that youare allowing them to be
themselves.
That means that you aretreating them with the humanity
that they deserve.
And then that last one isradical acceptance of the world.
Am I willing to lose everythingin the moment to win humanity in
the end?
You know, because sometimes wehave to be willing to be wrong
(23:22):
in order to get it right.
And people are scared of beingwrong.
They're scared of saying Idon't know.
They're scared of saying, well,I didn't know what to say or
how to say it.
Or you know, and you're stillcomplicit, whether you do or you
don't Right.
So it's like I don't know.
We've forgotten those.
To me, those really basicthings of just interacting with
(23:43):
another person.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
That's what I was going to ask about the
interaction, because one of thethings that I believe with
inclusion is every moment thatwe have, every time we interact
with someone, that is a momentto call in inclusiveness right
To be able to see that personvalue them and respect them.
(24:08):
And it also means that we haveto interact outside of the
people.
We know Right that we have toreally be able and willing to
expand our networks, ourconnections, and we've talked
about connections on the first,in the first season, we had a
(24:28):
couple of great thought leaderscome in and talk to us about the
power of connection andactually the impact on our
central nervous system and, whenwe have feelings of belonging,
feelings of connectedness, howit releases all of the positive
hormones, the endorphins, and itlowers the stress hormones.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Yeah, because it's a basic human need.
It's basic human need.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
But if we can get over that first stress that
you're talking about, thatanxiety and fear that we might
have of the unknown I don't knowthis person.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
And we may not have that trust yet.
But if we can get through thatand, as you say, have this
radical acceptance of ourselvesand our ability to be able to
connect with others, then you'reright, it will make our work
much easier because people willcome into the work valuing being
(25:29):
human beings.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
We can learn a lot from kids, from kids that
haven't been, that we haven'tmessed up yet, right, Right,
because kids will go and playwith each other.
They don't care about skincolor until you tell them to
care about it.
They don't care about what youhave on until you tell them to
care about it.
So if we would adopt that samething of just going up to a
person at work and saying, hey,how's your day going?
(25:53):
A lot of times, 90% of the time, people have stuff going on
that has nothing to do with you.
They didn't smile at youbecause they don't like you.
They did not smile because theydon't like you.
They didn't smile becausethey're going through some
really tough stuff that hasnothing to do with you and
they're not really even thinkingabout you.
But I think, especially forthose in leadership, when you
(26:14):
accept a leadership position notthat you don't get to be human,
but it does mean that when youdon't feel like smiling, you
still have to smile and sayhello.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
All right as we close out, risha, this has been a
great conversation.
Is there anything that youwanna leave us with that we can
use to be better than our BS?
Speaker 1 (26:35):
I think if I could say anything to anybody, I would
say don't forget to see thehumanity in each other.
We are all going to makemistakes, we're all going to say
the wrong thing at some pointin time.
We're going to go throughthings that are so difficult and
so hard.
But when you can see thehumanity in somebody else, when
(26:56):
you can give them grace as theygo through those things and
maybe you can have aconversation with them.
If something is said in thewrong way, we get so much
further.
Because the reality is, if wedon't figure this out together
and see how we're stronger,we'll perish together Like
nobody's going anywhere.
So let's try to see thehumanity in each other.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
There you have it.
Thank you so much, risha.
It's been a pleasure having youon Inclusion Begins With Me
Conversations that Matter.
Thank you all for joining me onthis episode of Inclusion
(27:43):
Begins With Me Conversationsthat Matter.
You can learn more about RishaGrant and all of our guests at
MetLifecom.
At MetLife, we are committed todiversity, equity and inclusion
, and we believe making adifference in the lives of our
customers, community and theworld around us is altogether
(28:09):
possible.
Learn more and join us atmetlifecom.
The link is in our show notes.
Please don't forget tosubscribe to our podcast
(28:29):
Inclusion Begins With MeConversations that Matter, on
Apple Podcast or wherever youlisten to podcasts.
I hope you also take the timeto rate and leave our show a
review Before we go.
We'd like to thank our podcastpartner, human Group Media, who
helped us produce this show.
That's it for today's episode.
(28:50):
I hope you join me in the nextone.
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