December 11, 2024 • 41 mins
If you have been following along for a while then you know TSI's very own Director of Design, Breck Crandell has been on a journey of building his own home here in the city of Detroit.
In this episode Breck shares his thoughts about the journey a month post completion.
Breck shares insights into what it was like to not only design, but to also build his own home, what lessons he learned from the process, and most importantly, how this experience has made him a better architect.
Here's a glimpse of what you'll learn:
- Total timeline and cost to build
- Favorite memories from the build
- How does this home change housing options in Detroit?
- What it was like having Mayor Duggan tour the home?
- Who would benefit most from this type of design?
Learn more about the Cochrane Home
Learn more about Houm
Link to full show notes
Ready to move forward with your project? Contact us here and we will put you in contact with the right member of our team.
Make sure to follow us on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedInto stay up to date on new project releases, trainings, and more.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_01 (00:02):
Welcome to the Innovative Real Estate Podcast
with your hosts Leslie Horn,Brett Crandall, and Claire
Olilla.
We're here to make your lifeeasier as a real estate
developer and teach youeverything we've learned about
designing and buildinginnovative homes, multifamily,
and mixed use structures.
On this podcast, we'll be givingyou our best advice, trainings,
(00:23):
and QA segments so you can learnfrom our years of experience and
make your innovative vision areality.
SPEAKER_00 (00:30):
Hello and welcome back to another installment of
your favorite podcast,Innovative Real Estate with
Three Squared Inc.
We are your hosts, Leslie Breckand Jill.
And today we are revisiting apast episode, a couple of past
episodes, actually, um, wherewe're going to be talking about
uh a project that is close tohome and closer to the heart, uh
(00:52):
quite literally uh in figure.
Um, it is the Cochrane home.
It is the first of its kind, aprototype in collaboration with
H O U M Home and Three SquaredInc.
as the first of its kind.
And it is my house.
Uh it's the house that I builtuh for myself with an army of
other individuals.
(01:13):
I think everybody in this callwas involved in many ways,
shapes, and forms.
And we are here to talk aboutthe Cochrane Home now that it is
completed, and I am actuallytaking this recording from my
office inside the Cochrane home,which is uh which is pretty
spectacular.
So that's where we're gonnastart things off today.
I think we're gonna go uh withsome questions, just interview
(01:35):
style with the team.
But Leslie, any openingcomments.
SPEAKER_03 (01:39):
Wow.
You did it.
SPEAKER_00 (01:46):
We did it.
SPEAKER_03 (01:47):
Well, yeah, but yeah, you're the one that
stepped into it literally.
And um, you did.
You had an army of people thatjust love and adore you and
respect you, and even from thecity and the I wouldn't say not
everyone from the city, but thehigher ups from the city, boy,
(02:07):
oh boy, have they really, reallyembraced this.
And I'm excited about where it'sgonna go.
I guess my opening statementwould be um I'm proud of you,
proud of you for taking thatleap.
As we know in any type ofinnovation and any type of new
model, you have to build it.
Starting three squared was thesame situation.
(02:28):
Everyone's like, Well, have youbuilt one before?
Like, no, we haven't.
And so the moment you put yourmoney where your mouth is is
really a dedication and anexcitement because now you've
proven the model and now youknow what you can improve on,
(02:48):
which is actually the mostimportant thing.
And it that your your home isbeautiful.
You uh you and Miriam have havereally truly made it um a
heartfelt home.
And it's it's beautiful insideand out.
So those are my uh those are myfirst comments.
SPEAKER_00 (03:05):
Oh, it means so much, Leslie.
Thank you.
And for our listeners, just areminder: this is in the North
Corktown neighborhood ofDetroit, Michigan.
So where we have planted ourflag right around the corner
from Three Squared Inc.'s officeof operations, our model center,
which is also located in thesame neighborhood.
So it's very weird on days thatI walk to work now.
SPEAKER_03 (03:26):
Well, I'm just tickled that you aren't too far
away.
That's the whole thing.
Kind of got used to you andMiriam and the and the pups.
Um, so I'm glad you guys arestill close.
And we always have Nancy's tomeet in the middle.
SPEAKER_00 (03:40):
That is true.
Hometown heroes.
SPEAKER_03 (03:43):
Yes.
Yes, yes, yes.
This is fantastic.
So I know we have a bunch ofquestions.
Jill, you want to start off witha couple of questions first?
I mean, you've you were uh youwere never on the sidelines, but
I think uh the the three squaredteam as a whole, you got to see
the brilliance of this unfold umas not just a new model but also
(04:04):
as a new innovation inarchitecture.
So I'm really interested to hearsome of the questions that you
might have and you might be ableto bring to the table here.
SPEAKER_02 (04:14):
Yeah, I think I'd like to kick things off by
saying a key phrase that Breckhas repeated tenfold while under
the process of constructing hisown house.
You've said that this processhas made you a better architect.
And so I want you to touch onsome of the key points that you
learned during the processbecause I've seen it personally
that client meetings that we'vehad for single-family
(04:37):
residential projects havesignificantly improved because
of your experience building yourown home.
It's kind of like a lost tradewhere architects used to be the
constructors of their buildingsas well, not just the drawers of
the building.
So now that you've been throughthe process, I guess how do you
how do you feel like you're abetter architect?
Can you explain that?
SPEAKER_00 (04:59):
Oh, geez, how much time do we have?
Um I I mean, I don't even knowwhere to begin.
Jell, that's like themillion-dollar question.
Like, how hasn't it impacted meand my profession?
Uh let's start with you know,design to drawing.
I mean, it's one thing to buildsomething digitally, but a
digital twin has no bearing ongravity or ladders or how tight
(05:22):
a lot is.
Um, so there's a lot of lessonslearned in the transition from
the digital world into likephysical reality.
And um, things you think thatyou've detailed properly or that
you've like resolved, you'relike, oh yeah, I I know that
detail that works great.
And then you you're the onewho's actually like up hanging
25 feet in the air uh by onearm, like trying to get a screw
(05:42):
into like this little crevice.
Uh it doesn't work.
It doesn't work.
So, like um from order ofoperations to how you detail
things and how you think aboutum the process of putting things
together, um, it definitelychallenges you to uh to
empathize with the people whoare physically on site working
(06:03):
on these things.
And uh you understand where thisis not my first build.
Um, so you know, I've been onjob sites before, but this was a
unique home in a lot of ways.
And you and you feel for the thebuilders who actually have to
put these things together andyou understand the frustrations
that builders often have witharchitects who are like, oh no,
I figured this out, like thiswill totally work.
And then the builders like, no,it doesn't, and this is why.
(06:26):
And uh for me, this process, itwas you know, me and the the
crew that was working under Ty,that's the general contractor um
for Living Edge.
He uh he and I worked throughmany of those details in real
time, um, putting them together.
I would say that was probablylike one of the biggest things.
Uh, and then navigating theprocess, uh, the process as a
(06:47):
whole from start to finish.
Like when we're working in theoffice, like, yeah, we're we're
involved in the conceptual, thedesign, um communicating a
variety of different movingparts with the site and
utilities and things of thatnature, and then communicating
with the city, maybe.
But um, when you get into theentire process, when you have to
(07:08):
talk to the bank, when you haveto provide financial data and
you have to make sure that thevalue matches the construction
costs and you have to navigatetaxes.
And then after the fact, what doappraisals and comparable sales
look like so you can recoup thevalue of the project that you've
(07:30):
now built?
Um it's it's a really harrowingexperience.
And um, and I think that Ilearned equal amounts in the
construction type and putting itall together and tying in the
systems, as I did with theprocess from the bottom to the
top and how much effort it takesfor somebody to develop a
(07:52):
project, be it a house forthemselves or be it a
development opportunity.
Um, there's a lot of things thatyou as the owner have to
contribute.
It's not like, hey, here's it,here's the money and go do it.
It's like, oh, I need to makeall of these decisions, you
know, hundreds of microdecisions on a weekly basis, and
a lot of communication that youhave to have across multiple
(08:13):
parties.
So I feel a lot more educated uhbecause of the research that I
had to do into taxes, intoappraisals, into financial
institutions, into citypolitics.
Uh, you know, we had to gobefore planning and we had to
talk to zoning and we had totalk to buildings and
engineering, and then we had tonavigate the Detroit City Water
(08:34):
and Sewer Department.
And all of these are differentsteps with a different cast of
characters.
And so learning who they are andwhat they do and how they fit
into the process allows me tobetter position myself when I'm
talking to a client where now Icould empathize with them,
having gone through it myself,and I can help them navigate the
process that much smootherbecause I know what the next
step is going to look like.
(08:56):
It's a very long-winded answer,but uh, nothing less.
SPEAKER_03 (09:06):
Do you have a favorite memory about this
process and um of building thehome?
SPEAKER_00 (09:12):
Favorite memory?
I mean let me put it this way.
I'm kind of like uh have youever finished like a television
series or like finished a videogame, and you're like kind of
sad because you feel like youlost a bunch of friends.
I'm like, I found myself like uhreally reflecting on the entire
(09:33):
time that I spent here becausemy family and friends didn't see
me for the six months we werelike in full construction.
Um, I saw my work family prettyconsistently, but uh the people
that I was hanging out with werethe the crew on the job site.
And it kind of struck me likelightning the day we finished,
or I'm like, I might never seethat carpenter again, or I'm not
(09:55):
gonna talk to that drywaller ona daily basis, or my plumber's
gone, you know.
It just kind of like set in thatum you built a you built a whole
new family through the process.
Um, I remember Clear's Day, likebecause we built the house out
of uh structural insulatedpanels, and so they they fit in
like giant Lego pieces, kind ofyou know, tie together.
(10:15):
So you put the walls up and thenthe floor and then the second
floor, and then you put the roofon.
And uh, and I remember Clear'sDay, you know, putting in that
last roof panel because like thesun was perfectly aligned with
that opening and we like put itthrough and then slid it down
and it just like locked it in.
I'm like, wow, there's a roofover my head now.
(10:36):
Um so that was that was like akey moment.
It just I just sticks with me.
It was like a mental picturethat I remember is like tying
the house together at thatmoment.
SPEAKER_03 (10:47):
Well, everyone's gonna ask you about your how
much it cost.
We might as well get thatquestion out of the way.
And kind of um, what do youthink um the total time?
I think if you had taken outsome of those delays, which were
so out of your control, I'dreally like to hear the actual
time versus what you think itcould have been done in and
(11:08):
cost, maybe.
SPEAKER_00 (11:10):
Yeah, well, I would I have a great way of explaining
this because um we were buildingtwo almost identical projects uh
at the same time.
And so what I could do is I canI can align this with uh the
project that we had going um ina similar timeline in Fort
Wayne, Indiana.
Uh it was with uh RoyalDevelopment, so we call it the
(11:31):
Royal Home.
And uh and it's the exact samesize as my house, a little bit
different configuration, uh, butvery, very similar to the
Cochrane home.
So the Cochrane home, all inall, cost me about$500,000 to
build.
Um and so that's a that's a1,600 square foot three-bedroom,
two-bath uh with some very, veryefficient systems, um, high
(11:55):
energy efficient, low energyusage.
And that's including a 430square foot accessory dwelling
unit and uh garage that'sattached to the house with a
bridge.
So there are also a lot of bellsand whistles in this house that
if I was building this as adeveloper, like if I was going
to immediately turn around andsell this house, I wouldn't have
(12:15):
done.
But because this is my house,like custom quarry tile, custom
kitchen cabinetry, customcountertops, I put a lot more
energy into the lightingstrategy throughout the house.
We went with a uh radiantin-floor heating system that's
supplemented by wall-mountedchiller units that can heat and
cool individual spaces.
So there's definitely somethings that I added.
(12:37):
I think that that balances outwith the amount of effort that I
was physically putting into theproject as well, because you
know, labor's not free.
And I, you know, spent time hereworking with the crew on site.
So my house basically boileddown to about$209 a square foot.
Um, if you look at hard costs,and like I said, that is some
(12:59):
bells and whistles, and we tooksome liberties, and I also made
some mistakes, which which costme uh that I can't deny.
Um, even being in this industryas long as I have, like, you're
still gonna make mistakes.
Uh like, don't flag your sitebefore you dig holes, uh,
because then you dig up theflags, and then you have to pay
(13:19):
somebody to come and redo theflags.
You know, it's it's like sillythings like that.
And you're just like, oh yeah,well, that makes sense now.
Um, all right, so let's comparethat.
Uh, we're looking at$209 asquare foot,$500,000 all in,
compared to uh the Royal HomeProject, which came in at$194 a
square foot.
(13:40):
And that one was completed infive months as opposed to my
eight months.
Um so you know what once you'veonce you've paid forward the
lessons learned, and if you'renot putting in the bells and
whistles, now you could youcould think to yourself, like
209 versus 194 doesn't seem likea huge difference.
(14:02):
Multiply it out.
That's a huge difference incost.
I mean, every dollar per squarefoot is a massive amount of
savings on a project.
And so we're looking at youknow, future projects at scale,
we're targeting 185 with thiswith this construction type by
using high efficiency systemsand these panelized uh buildings
(14:23):
that are constructed off-site.
So that's our goal.
Um, the timeline for thisproject was, as Leslie
mentioned, uh very caught in redtape, just because it was a part
of Detroit.
But once we got through thatprocess and um we navigated
those approvals and workedthrough some tax things that we
had to get before we startedconstruction, all in all, the
the construction timeline wasabout two months for below grade
(14:47):
systems.
So that was you know, levelingthe site, clearing all the
trees, putting in our uhplumbing runs for the water and
sewer, and then pouring a slab.
That took about two months, uh,just in terms of like scheduling
who does what, when, where, how.
Um, and there's a lot of bigequipment involved there.
And then the actual house was aslab and then became a house and
(15:07):
was completed and move in readywithin six months of that.
So it was about two months ofsite work and then six months of
you know on-site work as acompared to the Fort Wayne
project, which soup did notstart to finish, you know, first
shovel in the ground to hey,here's the keys was was five
months in total, which is kindof mind-boggling to me.
SPEAKER_03 (15:27):
Uh and I confirmed with JT that those fees included
his soft cost.
Now, I do know there was somepreferential treatment from the
city.
There might have been somedealing with utilities and such,
which um I know we you certainlydid not get here with the city
of Detroit.
Um, but I thought that was sointeresting that it did include
his soft cost.
(15:48):
Um and he came in under budget.
SPEAKER_00 (15:51):
Yeah, no, that is an all-in price.
Yeah, which is excluding land.
Oh, except land.
That is that is true.
That is true.
SPEAKER_02 (16:00):
So I think this is a good segue because my follow-up
question to that is can youstart to touch on some of the
types of ways that this canimpact the ways that the
tradespeople work in theconstruction in the construction
industry?
Because number one, we knowthere's a shortage of affordable
housing.
And number two, if you'rebuilding new construction, we
know that there's a shortage oftradespeople.
SPEAKER_00 (16:25):
Yeah, well, there's not just a shortage of
affordable housing, there's ashortage of how to housing,
period, like point blank.
Like you can't find expensivehomes, you can't find cheap
homes, you just can't findhomes.
If you're on the market lookingfor one and you spent any time
on Zillow, uh you understandwhat I'm saying.
Um there there has to be anumber of shifts.
And I know you're focusing onlike tradespeople in general.
(16:47):
I mean, there definitely needsto be more people in training.
Uh, we need more moretradespeople, period.
Um, we definitely need to see uhmore options because you're
limited and to who you workwith, which means that they can
fix prices, which means theirprices are just gonna continue
to get higher and higher, andbuilding materials are getting
higher as well.
But everybody needs to kind ofstop and reposition their
(17:12):
mentality towards this, becauseum, we're not gonna be doing the
same things the same wayforever.
Um there has to be a shift.
And this means for the way thatbanks are approaching new
construction loans, uh, becauseI called 14 different banks and
10 of them hung up on me when Itold them my address because
they can't provide newconstruction in the city of
Detroit.
(17:33):
Um for the way that appraisalswork, because if you try to do
something that no one else hasdone before in a neighborhood,
like build an accessory dwellingunit, you will not have a
comparable.
There's no comparable price, sohow can they value it if it
doesn't exist?
You're the first one.
So the next person can use youas a comparable, but if you're
the first one to put your flagin the ground, um they don't
(17:53):
have a way to look at it.
In the same way thattradespeople are gonna come in
and say, I've never worked witha foam insulated structural
panel before.
So like I don't know how toapproach this.
Um, or I'm gonna charge you moreas a result, or I even got a
couple instances where like, Idon't want to work on this
because it's not sticks andbricks.
(18:14):
So I don't I don't really knowhow I'm gonna approach like
quoting this, and I don't wantto give you a number and then
lose my shirt on it, you know.
So we we came across this in inmultiple categories where if you
challenge convention, if you dosomething different, you're
gonna have an uphill battle.
But I've also noticed that thesupport coming from the other
(18:34):
end, which Leslie opened theconversation with, the support
from the city acknowledging thisand saying it to us, to our
faces, that we know this, this,and this needs to happen in
order to actually allow morehousing to be built.
Because quite frankly, thenarrative uh does not match
reality.
You could say you need morehousing, but if you're not
(18:56):
paving a path for people toactually have a direct line of
sight to build housing, um,we're not getting anywhere.
SPEAKER_02 (19:05):
Rick, I want to commend you because you're
fighting the good fight to buildbeautiful affordable housing.
It's not just like throwingtogether something that's gonna
end up costing the end user morein the long run because you're
gonna have to replace somecheapy parts that are not good
quality.
You built this for longevity,you built it for a greater
audience.
So I really want to commend youfor that.
(19:26):
And I also want to hand it overto Leslie because I wanted
Leslie to touch on.
We've had some really importantguests tour this house and get
some inside looks during theconstruction process, all the
way through the ribbon cuttingceremony.
So, Leslie, can you touch on whocame by this house?
SPEAKER_03 (19:44):
Oh my lord, yeah.
You know, it was such a greatmoment.
It was such a great day.
I think um had a fabulous ribboncutting day.
It was amazing.
Breck, I'll tell you the partthat touched me most was um our
guest of honor asking Miriam tosupport him in cutting the
ribbon.
I thought that was just sobrilliant and just um so well
(20:07):
deserving.
Uh, we had Mayor, um MayorDuggan come in and he actually
came in and he was supposed tospend like, you know, 10, 15
minutes with us.
Oh my lordy.
This man came in, got got areally good explanation, had
just absorbed everything as asponge, went out, did the whole
(20:32):
ceremony, and then Breck, um,you dragged him back in, but he
did not go screaming.
I think he would have beenscreaming had he not gone in.
I think this um your next 45minutes with him was such an
amazing um show ofaccomplishments, number one, but
also something new.
(20:52):
They kept referring to it as theAI AI house, right?
Hey, is this the house it wasthe is this the AI designed
house?
So tell us about that day andhow you felt about that whole
process and really um what thecity is now saying about this.
SPEAKER_00 (21:08):
I mean, the whole thing's still surreal to me.
Like it doesn't like I live herenow.
I've been living here for uhover a month now, but it's still
like it's it hasn't quite hit meyet, I guess, because it's like
the ultimate thing an architectan architect can do, I guess.
You know, like if you go intoarchitecture school, you kind of
(21:29):
are like, I have to design andbuild my own house someday.
But it also means it's like themost terrifying thing that an
architect can do, uh, becauseyou're under a magnifying glass.
Um, so chill, I appreciate theterm beautiful.
Um, that's because I wassurrounded by an incredible team
who uh who supported me throughdesign and construction.
Uh, wouldn't have had it anyother way.
(21:50):
Uh and it just it culminatedwith a a ribbon cutting, which I
didn't again believe washappening until it was
happening, where mayor MikeDuggan, the mayor of Detroit, Uh
showed up himself with his wholesecurity detail and a who's who
of Detroit.
And then there was news in myface.
And there were developers fromevery corner and higher-ups and
(22:11):
city council members.
And it was just, it was kind ofcrazy to be able to meet them
all face to face, shake theirhands, and to be able to explain
why we did what we did and howwe did it.
Um, how we built faster thananybody else in the
neighborhood, how we blew theirprice tag out of the water.
I mean, average houses are goingup in this neighborhood for
upwards of$350 a square foot, asopposed to my$209 a square foot.
(22:38):
And the promise of what's tocome, because this is a model.
It's exactly that.
Um, this is not meant to be theend all be all.
This is to show seeing isbelieving in our line of work.
For the same reason that Lesliebuilt the first shipping
container building in the stateof Michigan that was permitted,
uh, is the same reason why Ibuilt this home right up the
(23:01):
street, uh, so that we havemodels that we can show people
and explain to people what we'retalking about instead of just
like looking at digitalrenderings all day long.
Like you gotta, you gottaactually commit to it.
And so that's what we did.
SPEAKER_02 (23:15):
That was amazing.
That was a fantastic day.
Important to clarify in thisprocess is there is a
scalability and a repeatabilityfactor to the home model, but
it's by no means a cookie-cottermodel that can be copy and
pasted directly.
It's not going to be like aboring development.
(23:36):
Not boring, but just like thesame thing as anybody else
that's like a traditional nobells and whistles construction.
How does the home model differ?
And what's the greater pictureand goal that goes hand in hand
with that?
SPEAKER_00 (23:52):
Well, yeah, it all it all boils down to the to the
algorithm, to the software umthat's behind this, because uh
ultimately it was it was a chunkof software that was developed,
developed by our team um thatdesigned the house originally.
Uh, it assessed the specifics ofthe lot based on GIS data.
It knew neighboring structures,it knew where trees were, um,
(24:15):
but it accounts for the sun'spath throughout the year.
Like it knows which way is southand which way is north, and so
it knows where the sun's comingand going.
And so it generated an optimizedlayout that maximizes natural
daylight into the house, whichreduces heating and cooling
costs and maximized solar gains.
(24:36):
Uh, it has operable windows thatwere planned out, so you get
passive cooling in the very hot,hottest points of summer.
Um, and it responded directly tounique views that the house has.
Uh, and for that very reason,um, you could take the same
footprint of this buildingbecause there are a lot of lots
in the city of Detroit and inthe Midwest in general that are
(24:58):
the same size as this lot.
And you could put it throughthis algorithm, and every single
one of them is going to be aunique structure.
They're all built the same way,they're all going to use the
same systems and constructiontypes, which means they're all
going to cost virtually the sameamount.
But every single one of thesehomes, these info homes that
we're going to work withpartners to develop, are going
(25:20):
to be unique to their context.
And that's that's the importantpart, is because you're not
going to see these bastions ofnowhereville where you just see
like every third house isrepeated.
You know, you get you've been inthose neighborhoods.
There's no identity, there's nocharacter.
Um, as opposed to like if youtook this house and put it on
(25:41):
the lot next door, it would be adifferent house, even if it's 60
feet away.
Uh, and I think that's what'sreally magical about the the
paradigm that we're we'reproposing here.
Um, is that yeah, it isrepeatable, but every single one
of them is gonna be unique asthe people that live in it.
SPEAKER_03 (26:02):
I love that.
I love that.
So, Breck, um you had mentionedearlier like a mistake or two.
What would you do, like thefirst two things that come to
your mind that you would dototally different, you would
never do again, you're mad atyourself, or you know, one of
(26:22):
those kind of things, like, ah,I could have done it better.
SPEAKER_00 (26:27):
Well, I would have had a crane, that's for damn
sure.
Uh we set all panels by hand,and uh I I don't think my my
shoulders will ever recover fromthat.
It was it's a really tight lot.
So the lot itself is only 30feet wide, it's a hundred feet
deep.
Um, you can't you can't chooseyour family and you can't choose
your neighbors.
(26:47):
I have been very fortunate andblessed on both uh of those uh
because my neighbors have beenfantastic.
And so they're very, verysupportive of the project and
allowed me to you know put theend of a ladder in their yard in
order to get access to my roof,things like that.
But as we start to infill theseand you've got a house
immediately adjacent to you onboth sides, it's gonna be more
(27:08):
challenging.
So I think some of thoseequipment lessons, um,
definitely something we learnedfrom that cost a lot more in
labor um than it did in the timeor the money that we may have
saved on that end.
Um, I went with a very, veryunique heating and cooling
system.
Um, it is an air-to-water heatpump.
(27:31):
Now, when I say that in theUnited States, most people are
like, I don't know what that is.
You've probably heard of anair-to-air heat pump, better
known as a mini-split.
This is not a mini-split.
This is a chiller unit.
And the chiller unit powers allof my heated floors throughout
the building.
It powers a chiller unit that'sa wall-mounted unit that looks
(27:51):
like a mini split, but it'sactually got fluid flowing
through it and then a fan thatblows over the fluid.
And it heats my domestic hotwater.
So, like showers, your kitchensink, a dishwasher, stuff like
that, all powered by thisair-to-water heat pump.
If you say this in Europe,people are like, oh, everybody's
got one.
That's kind of a problem becauseI was the only one to do this in
(28:13):
this entire region.
Nobody's ever heard of it.
So when you need an answer,nobody has one.
So we have to go figure out theanswer.
And when you need a part,they're all in metric.
So I can't just go around thecorner to the plumbing store and
buy the fitting.
I have to order from Germany andwait two weeks for it to get
here.
So it was it was interesting,and I'm glad that I did it.
(28:37):
Um, I will it will pay foritself within a few years of
usage uh because of howefficient it is.
I mean, my bills areexceptionally low, and it's the
real feel is 14 degrees outsideright now, um, as we speak, and
it's a nice toasty 71 degrees inhere, and my bills are very,
very minimal.
Like I'm paying between 75 and$100 a month for heating, and
(28:59):
it's like 2,000 square feet oflivable space.
Um, so I I think that's likeprobably one of the bigger ones.
And then uh I tried a steeljoist, floor joist, uh, that's
marketed so that you can uh runutilities through it.
It's supposed to make lifeeasier, and it was technically
cheaper than going with anengineered wood joist.
(29:21):
Uh, I would never use thoseagain as long as they live.
For two reasons.
One, because they're sharp asrazors.
And so when you tried to likepull anything like through the
holes that are meant for youknow utilities to run through,
it would like sheath wires, itwould like shape and cut stuff.
So I wrapped all the openingswith pool noodles so that they
don't, you know, cut ever cuteverything up to pieces.
(29:42):
Um, and then two, it's like whenyou're screwing wood into metal,
you're going between twodissimilar materials.
And so I started losing my mindlike halfway through the project
because you got like 10different drills and drivers and
50 different screws, and everysingle scenario required a
different type of screw, andyou're like, oh, it's over
there, so I gotta run over here.
And it just it got really,really difficult very quickly.
(30:04):
So the the less dissimilarmaterials that I could have, uh,
the better.
So you get your envelope in, andthen the rest I would just do,
and that would have saved us aton of time and headaches.
SPEAKER_03 (30:15):
I would be remiss if I didn't ask what was the best
thing you designed in the house.
SPEAKER_00 (30:24):
I love my bathroom.
Uh I I it it that space means alot to me in my house.
So, like the shower and thebathtub setup, it's a very
Japanese influence.
I did like a perfectly roundlike circle soaking tub.
Um, and it's got plants flowingout of it, and it's a walk-in
(30:47):
shower, and we custom tiled theentire thing.
That and and the lighting, Ispent a ridiculous amount of
time uh studying, studyinglighting, which uh Jill back to
one of your previous questions.
How did this make me a betterarchitect?
I think that's like it was oneof my weakest subjects, quite
frankly.
Uh, I just kind of like in areflected ceiling plan, I'm
(31:08):
like, ah, light's here, it looksgreat, move on.
And you didn't think aboutimmersing yourself in the space
and like what it means.
And so I did I can't even tellyou how many hours of research
uh in late nights, just liketesting different lighting and
uh and different colortemperatures.
And so there is not a light inthis house that is not an
integrated LED fixture that hasa variety of color temperatures
(31:31):
and is on a dimmer switch.
So I can control the mood andset the tone for any space in
this house at any given momentin time.
And I think that is likeprobably one of the biggest
wins.
And uh, and as Miriam spendsmore time in the house, she's
even acknowledging it.
She's like, the more I play withthe lighting, the better I like
it.
I'm like, that's the point.
(31:52):
Yes, I love it.
SPEAKER_03 (31:55):
Amazing.
SPEAKER_00 (31:56):
So people like the bridge too.
SPEAKER_02 (31:58):
We decided to pick an industry that's very
difficult to change.
Breck, you had touched on thisthat a lot of tradespeople are
not interested in working in ona house that's not typical
construction, something thatthey're not familiar with.
Versus if we've done a lot ofcomparing your house to either a
car or a smaller piece oftechnology like a cell phone
that updates way morefrequently, your house is
(32:22):
designed for the long haul.
It's designed well and it'srelevant now, as relevant as it
will be however long your houseis gonna last.
So, can you talk a little bitabout the overall greater
picture of home and where yousee this company and this
product going?
SPEAKER_00 (32:41):
I I mean I haven't thought of it in so many words,
Joe.
Uh I like your approach tothings.
Um it's built to last.
And I and I think that's likeone of the biggest
considerations um that we havethrough the design and the the
software that we're doing is umwe could make it even cheaper.
We could we could build for alot cheaper if we were just
(33:05):
building junk, which a lot ofpeople are.
I mean, there's manufacturedhousing going crazy right now.
It seems to be all the rage.
And uh you've heard me say itbefore, like I feel strongly
that like the majority ofhousing 10 years from now is
going to come out of a factory,um, which this home did.
Like the majority of it wasfabricated off-site, which sped
(33:27):
up a timeline.
You know, the panelized chunks,the the house, so where all the
utilities come from, that wasall pre-manufactured off-site
and brought to site and erected.
And um, and if we're thinkinglong term, um we could have done
it cheaper, but what we doinstead is think about the
lifetime value of a home.
(33:47):
And it's easy for me to positionmyself to have that conversation
because I'm living here rightnow.
But when we work with developersand with municipalities, because
that's where this is going andheading quickly, um, when we
talk to them about it, it'severybody wants to know what the
cost per square foot is.
What's cost?
What's cost?
Because the developer wants tomake their money and it's
somebody else's problem now,which means that they put in bad
(34:08):
cabinets.
They put in cheap windows, uhcheap doors, and it's somebody
else's problem.
Now, not only are those doorsand windows and cabinets cheap,
but they're gonna fall apartsoon.
So they're leaking air, they'renot keeping the hot air in or
the cold air in um veryefficiently, and they're gonna
break.
And now it's up to the homeownerwho bought that from a developer
(34:28):
to replace that.
What we're doing is we'refinding efficiencies in the
system.
And instead of just like makingit cheaper so that there's a
bigger profit margin, we'repassing that on to the ultimate
users of the building byinvesting in better, more
quality materials.
So better doors and windows, um,better countertops, better
(34:50):
cabinetry, things that will lastso that there's a lifetime cost
benefit and savings that'spassed on to the people who use
these buildings.
Um, we're not just here to makea profit, we're here to actually
make better buildings moreattainable and make sure that
they look good in the process.
SPEAKER_03 (35:07):
Just I on who would be the right person to pick up
the phone today and call home orcall three square to say, I want
a home product, I want a homedesign.
What who who's the right persontoday?
And it could be more than oneperson.
SPEAKER_00 (35:25):
Yeah, well, I mean, the right person today is, I
mean, if there is an infill lotthat can put a building on it, I
mean, that that is the targetaudience, but it makes the most
sense on an economy of scale.
So if you're an individualhomeowner and you want to build
a home next to you as like aninvestment property, or you want
to build a home because you ownproperty and you've had it
(35:46):
forever and you want to buildthere, sure, we'll have that
conversation.
Absolutely, 100%.
But the bigger conversationsthat we're having right now is
we're talking to mayors ofcities who are looking at 40,
60, 80 lots, 5,000 lots inCleveland was a recent
conversation.
City of Fort Wayne, city ofMuncie, Indiana, the city of
Detroit, Romulus, Michigan.
(36:08):
Like these are all cities thatwe are talking to.
And developers who know whatthey're doing, who have
experience in building homes,who are sick of the old paradigm
of doing things, who know thatthey're not going to turn a
profit.
Builders who feel bad aboutbuilding garbage and selling
that off, give us a call.
Because you understand it at itscore.
(36:30):
You know the problem, you knowwhere it's going, you know that
you're actually not buildingquality materials anymore, and
they're getting more expensive.
Those are the people we want totalk to, the people who can see
the bigger vision who have 20,30 lots that have unique
conditions spread throughout aneighborhood that all need this
infill.
And I know we've talked aboutlike infill might be something
(36:51):
that's unique to post-industrialregions, more so than other
areas.
Like, you know, LA doesn't needas much infill housing as like
Indiana does uh for some obviousreasons.
But if there are lots that areavailable to be developed at a
scale, knowing that each one ofthese homes is going to be
unique to its context, to itslocation and its
(37:13):
characteristics, um, those arethe people that we're talking
to.
SPEAKER_03 (37:18):
Wow.
Jill, any other final questionsor any other um questions or
things that you might want todiscover about this project,
this awesome and incredibleproject?
SPEAKER_02 (37:29):
I think I'll start to close things off by just
acknowledging the multipleendeavors that this project has
taken on as a whole.
Um, not only do you try toimprove things for the overall
housing industry and its enduser, you're also considering
things like environmentalfactors and not needing a
dumpster on the job site becauseyou're not producing as much
(37:50):
waste.
So many things that arecontributing to an overall
greater good and greater picturethat potentially a lot of
developers or builders aren'tnecessarily considering.
You've taken all of those thingson.
And not only have you taken themon, you've taken them on in the
city of Detroit, where welearned that there were only
eight building permitsdistributed across the past two
(38:13):
years.
Um, so I think that it wasneedless to say, this was a
difficult project, but you didwell.
You had a great team backing youbetween Three Squared and Home.
We have a real unique team herethat was willing to take on
something that I think manyother people would not
necessarily have been interestedin taking on.
So I just really want to commendyou and the team here, everyone
(38:34):
involved in this project.
Kudos and hats off to all of us.
SPEAKER_03 (38:38):
Yes, indeed.
Cheers, cheers.
SPEAKER_00 (38:41):
There's a fine line between being advantageous and
being stupid.
Uh I think I danced that line alittle bit.
Um, yeah, I'll I'll give myconcluding statement as um thank
you, Leslie Horn for the supportand for the graciousness that
(39:03):
you provided throughout thisentire process.
I remember like it wasyesterday, the day that I came
to you and I was like, I'm gonnabuild a house.
And you're like, a containerhouse.
And I'm like, nope, I gotsomething else.
And uh you looked at me with aside eye, but we had that
conversation, and look where weare today, and look who came and
saw the house, and look at thephone calls we're getting right
now and the conversations we'rehaving.
(39:24):
I'm excited for where this goes,but um, it's not it's not every
firm that you could work at thatuh would allow your your lead
architect to uh to work onnights and weekends so that you
know during those morning hoursyou could swing a hammer.
Um, so it's just like thesupport that I got here at Three
Squared wouldn't give it up forthe world.
(39:44):
It's such a unique team.
And uh and I can't thank youenough for everything.
Uh we wouldn't have this houseto be talking about if it wasn't
for you and for your leadershipin this company.
SPEAKER_03 (39:53):
Thank you, Brick, and you're welcome.
SPEAKER_00 (39:56):
And with that, we'll take it to a close.
This has been Innovative RealEstate with Three Squared Inc.
Uh, if you're interested inknowing more about the Cochrane
home, uh, we will be sharing iton social media.
Uh, I'm sure you've followedalong on some tidbits of that,
and it will also be featured onthe website.
And you can learn more about theprocess and the products that we
used uh for the panelizedconstruction of this, which is a
(40:19):
prefabricated product.
And we're doing lots ofdifferent projects with this,
not only with houses, but we'reuh we're starting to use this
for commercial buildings andlarger multi-unit apartments as
well.
Thanks for joining us.
We'll see you next time.
SPEAKER_01 (40:32):
Bye, everybody.
Thank you.
We hope you enjoyed thisepisode.
And if you found it so valuable,you want to connect with us
one-on-one, click the link inthe description to tell us all
about your project so we canhelp you get started.
And to get notified on the nextepisode here on Innovative Real
Estate, go ahead and subscribeto the podcast on iTunes so you
(40:53):
never miss a beat.
Get out there, put today'sadvice into action, and we will
see you in the next episode.
Welcome to the Innovative Real Estate Podcast
with your hosts Leslie Horn,Brett Crandall, and Claire
Olilla.
We're here to make your lifeeasier as a real estate
developer and teach youeverything we've learned about
designing and buildinginnovative homes, multifamily,
and mixed use structures.
On this podcast, we'll be givingyou our best advice, trainings,
(00:23):
and QA segments so you can learnfrom our years of experience and
make your innovative vision areality.
SPEAKER_00 (00:30):
Hello and welcome back to another installment of
your favorite podcast,Innovative Real Estate with
Three Squared Inc.
We are your hosts, Leslie Breckand Jill.
And today we are revisiting apast episode, a couple of past
episodes, actually, um, wherewe're going to be talking about
uh a project that is close tohome and closer to the heart, uh
(00:52):
quite literally uh in figure.
Um, it is the Cochrane home.
It is the first of its kind, aprototype in collaboration with
H O U M Home and Three SquaredInc.
as the first of its kind.
And it is my house.
Uh it's the house that I builtuh for myself with an army of
other individuals.
(01:13):
I think everybody in this callwas involved in many ways,
shapes, and forms.
And we are here to talk aboutthe Cochrane Home now that it is
completed, and I am actuallytaking this recording from my
office inside the Cochrane home,which is uh which is pretty
spectacular.
So that's where we're gonnastart things off today.
I think we're gonna go uh withsome questions, just interview
(01:35):
style with the team.
But Leslie, any openingcomments.
SPEAKER_03 (01:39):
Wow.
You did it.
SPEAKER_00 (01:46):
We did it.
SPEAKER_03 (01:47):
Well, yeah, but yeah, you're the one that
stepped into it literally.
And um, you did.
You had an army of people thatjust love and adore you and
respect you, and even from thecity and the I wouldn't say not
everyone from the city, but thehigher ups from the city, boy,
(02:07):
oh boy, have they really, reallyembraced this.
And I'm excited about where it'sgonna go.
I guess my opening statementwould be um I'm proud of you,
proud of you for taking thatleap.
As we know in any type ofinnovation and any type of new
model, you have to build it.
Starting three squared was thesame situation.
(02:28):
Everyone's like, Well, have youbuilt one before?
Like, no, we haven't.
And so the moment you put yourmoney where your mouth is is
really a dedication and anexcitement because now you've
proven the model and now youknow what you can improve on,
(02:48):
which is actually the mostimportant thing.
And it that your your home isbeautiful.
You uh you and Miriam have havereally truly made it um a
heartfelt home.
And it's it's beautiful insideand out.
So those are my uh those are myfirst comments.
SPEAKER_00 (03:05):
Oh, it means so much, Leslie.
Thank you.
And for our listeners, just areminder: this is in the North
Corktown neighborhood ofDetroit, Michigan.
So where we have planted ourflag right around the corner
from Three Squared Inc.'s officeof operations, our model center,
which is also located in thesame neighborhood.
So it's very weird on days thatI walk to work now.
SPEAKER_03 (03:26):
Well, I'm just tickled that you aren't too far
away.
That's the whole thing.
Kind of got used to you andMiriam and the and the pups.
Um, so I'm glad you guys arestill close.
And we always have Nancy's tomeet in the middle.
SPEAKER_00 (03:40):
That is true.
Hometown heroes.
SPEAKER_03 (03:43):
Yes.
Yes, yes, yes.
This is fantastic.
So I know we have a bunch ofquestions.
Jill, you want to start off witha couple of questions first?
I mean, you've you were uh youwere never on the sidelines, but
I think uh the the three squaredteam as a whole, you got to see
the brilliance of this unfold umas not just a new model but also
(04:04):
as a new innovation inarchitecture.
So I'm really interested to hearsome of the questions that you
might have and you might be ableto bring to the table here.
SPEAKER_02 (04:14):
Yeah, I think I'd like to kick things off by
saying a key phrase that Breckhas repeated tenfold while under
the process of constructing hisown house.
You've said that this processhas made you a better architect.
And so I want you to touch onsome of the key points that you
learned during the processbecause I've seen it personally
that client meetings that we'vehad for single-family
(04:37):
residential projects havesignificantly improved because
of your experience building yourown home.
It's kind of like a lost tradewhere architects used to be the
constructors of their buildingsas well, not just the drawers of
the building.
So now that you've been throughthe process, I guess how do you
how do you feel like you're abetter architect?
Can you explain that?
SPEAKER_00 (04:59):
Oh, geez, how much time do we have?
Um I I mean, I don't even knowwhere to begin.
Jell, that's like themillion-dollar question.
Like, how hasn't it impacted meand my profession?
Uh let's start with you know,design to drawing.
I mean, it's one thing to buildsomething digitally, but a
digital twin has no bearing ongravity or ladders or how tight
(05:22):
a lot is.
Um, so there's a lot of lessonslearned in the transition from
the digital world into likephysical reality.
And um, things you think thatyou've detailed properly or that
you've like resolved, you'relike, oh yeah, I I know that
detail that works great.
And then you you're the onewho's actually like up hanging
25 feet in the air uh by onearm, like trying to get a screw
(05:42):
into like this little crevice.
Uh it doesn't work.
It doesn't work.
So, like um from order ofoperations to how you detail
things and how you think aboutum the process of putting things
together, um, it definitelychallenges you to uh to
empathize with the people whoare physically on site working
(06:03):
on these things.
And uh you understand where thisis not my first build.
Um, so you know, I've been onjob sites before, but this was a
unique home in a lot of ways.
And you and you feel for the thebuilders who actually have to
put these things together andyou understand the frustrations
that builders often have witharchitects who are like, oh no,
I figured this out, like thiswill totally work.
And then the builders like, no,it doesn't, and this is why.
(06:26):
And uh for me, this process, itwas you know, me and the the
crew that was working under Ty,that's the general contractor um
for Living Edge.
He uh he and I worked throughmany of those details in real
time, um, putting them together.
I would say that was probablylike one of the biggest things.
Uh, and then navigating theprocess, uh, the process as a
(06:47):
whole from start to finish.
Like when we're working in theoffice, like, yeah, we're we're
involved in the conceptual, thedesign, um communicating a
variety of different movingparts with the site and
utilities and things of thatnature, and then communicating
with the city, maybe.
But um, when you get into theentire process, when you have to
(07:08):
talk to the bank, when you haveto provide financial data and
you have to make sure that thevalue matches the construction
costs and you have to navigatetaxes.
And then after the fact, what doappraisals and comparable sales
look like so you can recoup thevalue of the project that you've
(07:30):
now built?
Um it's it's a really harrowingexperience.
And um, and I think that Ilearned equal amounts in the
construction type and putting itall together and tying in the
systems, as I did with theprocess from the bottom to the
top and how much effort it takesfor somebody to develop a
(07:52):
project, be it a house forthemselves or be it a
development opportunity.
Um, there's a lot of things thatyou as the owner have to
contribute.
It's not like, hey, here's it,here's the money and go do it.
It's like, oh, I need to makeall of these decisions, you
know, hundreds of microdecisions on a weekly basis, and
a lot of communication that youhave to have across multiple
(08:13):
parties.
So I feel a lot more educated uhbecause of the research that I
had to do into taxes, intoappraisals, into financial
institutions, into citypolitics.
Uh, you know, we had to gobefore planning and we had to
talk to zoning and we had totalk to buildings and
engineering, and then we had tonavigate the Detroit City Water
(08:34):
and Sewer Department.
And all of these are differentsteps with a different cast of
characters.
And so learning who they are andwhat they do and how they fit
into the process allows me tobetter position myself when I'm
talking to a client where now Icould empathize with them,
having gone through it myself,and I can help them navigate the
process that much smootherbecause I know what the next
step is going to look like.
(08:56):
It's a very long-winded answer,but uh, nothing less.
SPEAKER_03 (09:06):
Do you have a favorite memory about this
process and um of building thehome?
SPEAKER_00 (09:12):
Favorite memory?
I mean let me put it this way.
I'm kind of like uh have youever finished like a television
series or like finished a videogame, and you're like kind of
sad because you feel like youlost a bunch of friends.
I'm like, I found myself like uhreally reflecting on the entire
(09:33):
time that I spent here becausemy family and friends didn't see
me for the six months we werelike in full construction.
Um, I saw my work family prettyconsistently, but uh the people
that I was hanging out with werethe the crew on the job site.
And it kind of struck me likelightning the day we finished,
or I'm like, I might never seethat carpenter again, or I'm not
(09:55):
gonna talk to that drywaller ona daily basis, or my plumber's
gone, you know.
It just kind of like set in thatum you built a you built a whole
new family through the process.
Um, I remember Clear's Day, likebecause we built the house out
of uh structural insulatedpanels, and so they they fit in
like giant Lego pieces, kind ofyou know, tie together.
(10:15):
So you put the walls up and thenthe floor and then the second
floor, and then you put the roofon.
And uh, and I remember Clear'sDay, you know, putting in that
last roof panel because like thesun was perfectly aligned with
that opening and we like put itthrough and then slid it down
and it just like locked it in.
I'm like, wow, there's a roofover my head now.
(10:36):
Um so that was that was like akey moment.
It just I just sticks with me.
It was like a mental picturethat I remember is like tying
the house together at thatmoment.
SPEAKER_03 (10:47):
Well, everyone's gonna ask you about your how
much it cost.
We might as well get thatquestion out of the way.
And kind of um, what do youthink um the total time?
I think if you had taken outsome of those delays, which were
so out of your control, I'dreally like to hear the actual
time versus what you think itcould have been done in and
(11:08):
cost, maybe.
SPEAKER_00 (11:10):
Yeah, well, I would I have a great way of explaining
this because um we were buildingtwo almost identical projects uh
at the same time.
And so what I could do is I canI can align this with uh the
project that we had going um ina similar timeline in Fort
Wayne, Indiana.
Uh it was with uh RoyalDevelopment, so we call it the
(11:31):
Royal Home.
And uh and it's the exact samesize as my house, a little bit
different configuration, uh, butvery, very similar to the
Cochrane home.
So the Cochrane home, all inall, cost me about$500,000 to
build.
Um and so that's a that's a1,600 square foot three-bedroom,
two-bath uh with some very, veryefficient systems, um, high
(11:55):
energy efficient, low energyusage.
And that's including a 430square foot accessory dwelling
unit and uh garage that'sattached to the house with a
bridge.
So there are also a lot of bellsand whistles in this house that
if I was building this as adeveloper, like if I was going
to immediately turn around andsell this house, I wouldn't have
(12:15):
done.
But because this is my house,like custom quarry tile, custom
kitchen cabinetry, customcountertops, I put a lot more
energy into the lightingstrategy throughout the house.
We went with a uh radiantin-floor heating system that's
supplemented by wall-mountedchiller units that can heat and
cool individual spaces.
So there's definitely somethings that I added.
(12:37):
I think that that balances outwith the amount of effort that I
was physically putting into theproject as well, because you
know, labor's not free.
And I, you know, spent time hereworking with the crew on site.
So my house basically boileddown to about$209 a square foot.
Um, if you look at hard costs,and like I said, that is some
(12:59):
bells and whistles, and we tooksome liberties, and I also made
some mistakes, which which costme uh that I can't deny.
Um, even being in this industryas long as I have, like, you're
still gonna make mistakes.
Uh like, don't flag your sitebefore you dig holes, uh,
because then you dig up theflags, and then you have to pay
(13:19):
somebody to come and redo theflags.
You know, it's it's like sillythings like that.
And you're just like, oh yeah,well, that makes sense now.
Um, all right, so let's comparethat.
Uh, we're looking at$209 asquare foot,$500,000 all in,
compared to uh the Royal HomeProject, which came in at$194 a
square foot.
(13:40):
And that one was completed infive months as opposed to my
eight months.
Um so you know what once you'veonce you've paid forward the
lessons learned, and if you'renot putting in the bells and
whistles, now you could youcould think to yourself, like
209 versus 194 doesn't seem likea huge difference.
(14:02):
Multiply it out.
That's a huge difference incost.
I mean, every dollar per squarefoot is a massive amount of
savings on a project.
And so we're looking at youknow, future projects at scale,
we're targeting 185 with thiswith this construction type by
using high efficiency systemsand these panelized uh buildings
(14:23):
that are constructed off-site.
So that's our goal.
Um, the timeline for thisproject was, as Leslie
mentioned, uh very caught in redtape, just because it was a part
of Detroit.
But once we got through thatprocess and um we navigated
those approvals and workedthrough some tax things that we
had to get before we startedconstruction, all in all, the
the construction timeline wasabout two months for below grade
(14:47):
systems.
So that was you know, levelingthe site, clearing all the
trees, putting in our uhplumbing runs for the water and
sewer, and then pouring a slab.
That took about two months, uh,just in terms of like scheduling
who does what, when, where, how.
Um, and there's a lot of bigequipment involved there.
And then the actual house was aslab and then became a house and
(15:07):
was completed and move in readywithin six months of that.
So it was about two months ofsite work and then six months of
you know on-site work as acompared to the Fort Wayne
project, which soup did notstart to finish, you know, first
shovel in the ground to hey,here's the keys was was five
months in total, which is kindof mind-boggling to me.
SPEAKER_03 (15:27):
Uh and I confirmed with JT that those fees included
his soft cost.
Now, I do know there was somepreferential treatment from the
city.
There might have been somedealing with utilities and such,
which um I know we you certainlydid not get here with the city
of Detroit.
Um, but I thought that was sointeresting that it did include
his soft cost.
(15:48):
Um and he came in under budget.
SPEAKER_00 (15:51):
Yeah, no, that is an all-in price.
Yeah, which is excluding land.
Oh, except land.
That is that is true.
That is true.
SPEAKER_02 (16:00):
So I think this is a good segue because my follow-up
question to that is can youstart to touch on some of the
types of ways that this canimpact the ways that the
tradespeople work in theconstruction in the construction
industry?
Because number one, we knowthere's a shortage of affordable
housing.
And number two, if you'rebuilding new construction, we
know that there's a shortage oftradespeople.
SPEAKER_00 (16:25):
Yeah, well, there's not just a shortage of
affordable housing, there's ashortage of how to housing,
period, like point blank.
Like you can't find expensivehomes, you can't find cheap
homes, you just can't findhomes.
If you're on the market lookingfor one and you spent any time
on Zillow, uh you understandwhat I'm saying.
Um there there has to be anumber of shifts.
And I know you're focusing onlike tradespeople in general.
(16:47):
I mean, there definitely needsto be more people in training.
Uh, we need more moretradespeople, period.
Um, we definitely need to see uhmore options because you're
limited and to who you workwith, which means that they can
fix prices, which means theirprices are just gonna continue
to get higher and higher, andbuilding materials are getting
higher as well.
But everybody needs to kind ofstop and reposition their
(17:12):
mentality towards this, becauseum, we're not gonna be doing the
same things the same wayforever.
Um there has to be a shift.
And this means for the way thatbanks are approaching new
construction loans, uh, becauseI called 14 different banks and
10 of them hung up on me when Itold them my address because
they can't provide newconstruction in the city of
Detroit.
(17:33):
Um for the way that appraisalswork, because if you try to do
something that no one else hasdone before in a neighborhood,
like build an accessory dwellingunit, you will not have a
comparable.
There's no comparable price, sohow can they value it if it
doesn't exist?
You're the first one.
So the next person can use youas a comparable, but if you're
the first one to put your flagin the ground, um they don't
(17:53):
have a way to look at it.
In the same way thattradespeople are gonna come in
and say, I've never worked witha foam insulated structural
panel before.
So like I don't know how toapproach this.
Um, or I'm gonna charge you moreas a result, or I even got a
couple instances where like, Idon't want to work on this
because it's not sticks andbricks.
(18:14):
So I don't I don't really knowhow I'm gonna approach like
quoting this, and I don't wantto give you a number and then
lose my shirt on it, you know.
So we we came across this in inmultiple categories where if you
challenge convention, if you dosomething different, you're
gonna have an uphill battle.
But I've also noticed that thesupport coming from the other
(18:34):
end, which Leslie opened theconversation with, the support
from the city acknowledging thisand saying it to us, to our
faces, that we know this, this,and this needs to happen in
order to actually allow morehousing to be built.
Because quite frankly, thenarrative uh does not match
reality.
You could say you need morehousing, but if you're not
(18:56):
paving a path for people toactually have a direct line of
sight to build housing, um,we're not getting anywhere.
SPEAKER_02 (19:05):
Rick, I want to commend you because you're
fighting the good fight to buildbeautiful affordable housing.
It's not just like throwingtogether something that's gonna
end up costing the end user morein the long run because you're
gonna have to replace somecheapy parts that are not good
quality.
You built this for longevity,you built it for a greater
audience.
So I really want to commend youfor that.
(19:26):
And I also want to hand it overto Leslie because I wanted
Leslie to touch on.
We've had some really importantguests tour this house and get
some inside looks during theconstruction process, all the
way through the ribbon cuttingceremony.
So, Leslie, can you touch on whocame by this house?
SPEAKER_03 (19:44):
Oh my lord, yeah.
You know, it was such a greatmoment.
It was such a great day.
I think um had a fabulous ribboncutting day.
It was amazing.
Breck, I'll tell you the partthat touched me most was um our
guest of honor asking Miriam tosupport him in cutting the
ribbon.
I thought that was just sobrilliant and just um so well
(20:07):
deserving.
Uh, we had Mayor, um MayorDuggan come in and he actually
came in and he was supposed tospend like, you know, 10, 15
minutes with us.
Oh my lordy.
This man came in, got got areally good explanation, had
just absorbed everything as asponge, went out, did the whole
(20:32):
ceremony, and then Breck, um,you dragged him back in, but he
did not go screaming.
I think he would have beenscreaming had he not gone in.
I think this um your next 45minutes with him was such an
amazing um show ofaccomplishments, number one, but
also something new.
(20:52):
They kept referring to it as theAI AI house, right?
Hey, is this the house it wasthe is this the AI designed
house?
So tell us about that day andhow you felt about that whole
process and really um what thecity is now saying about this.
SPEAKER_00 (21:08):
I mean, the whole thing's still surreal to me.
Like it doesn't like I live herenow.
I've been living here for uhover a month now, but it's still
like it's it hasn't quite hit meyet, I guess, because it's like
the ultimate thing an architectan architect can do, I guess.
You know, like if you go intoarchitecture school, you kind of
(21:29):
are like, I have to design andbuild my own house someday.
But it also means it's like themost terrifying thing that an
architect can do, uh, becauseyou're under a magnifying glass.
Um, so chill, I appreciate theterm beautiful.
Um, that's because I wassurrounded by an incredible team
who uh who supported me throughdesign and construction.
Uh, wouldn't have had it anyother way.
(21:50):
Uh and it just it culminatedwith a a ribbon cutting, which I
didn't again believe washappening until it was
happening, where mayor MikeDuggan, the mayor of Detroit, Uh
showed up himself with his wholesecurity detail and a who's who
of Detroit.
And then there was news in myface.
And there were developers fromevery corner and higher-ups and
(22:11):
city council members.
And it was just, it was kind ofcrazy to be able to meet them
all face to face, shake theirhands, and to be able to explain
why we did what we did and howwe did it.
Um, how we built faster thananybody else in the
neighborhood, how we blew theirprice tag out of the water.
I mean, average houses are goingup in this neighborhood for
upwards of$350 a square foot, asopposed to my$209 a square foot.
(22:38):
And the promise of what's tocome, because this is a model.
It's exactly that.
Um, this is not meant to be theend all be all.
This is to show seeing isbelieving in our line of work.
For the same reason that Lesliebuilt the first shipping
container building in the stateof Michigan that was permitted,
uh, is the same reason why Ibuilt this home right up the
(23:01):
street, uh, so that we havemodels that we can show people
and explain to people what we'retalking about instead of just
like looking at digitalrenderings all day long.
Like you gotta, you gottaactually commit to it.
And so that's what we did.
SPEAKER_02 (23:15):
That was amazing.
That was a fantastic day.
Important to clarify in thisprocess is there is a
scalability and a repeatabilityfactor to the home model, but
it's by no means a cookie-cottermodel that can be copy and
pasted directly.
It's not going to be like aboring development.
(23:36):
Not boring, but just like thesame thing as anybody else
that's like a traditional nobells and whistles construction.
How does the home model differ?
And what's the greater pictureand goal that goes hand in hand
with that?
SPEAKER_00 (23:52):
Well, yeah, it all it all boils down to the to the
algorithm, to the software umthat's behind this, because uh
ultimately it was it was a chunkof software that was developed,
developed by our team um thatdesigned the house originally.
Uh, it assessed the specifics ofthe lot based on GIS data.
It knew neighboring structures,it knew where trees were, um,
(24:15):
but it accounts for the sun'spath throughout the year.
Like it knows which way is southand which way is north, and so
it knows where the sun's comingand going.
And so it generated an optimizedlayout that maximizes natural
daylight into the house, whichreduces heating and cooling
costs and maximized solar gains.
(24:36):
Uh, it has operable windows thatwere planned out, so you get
passive cooling in the very hot,hottest points of summer.
Um, and it responded directly tounique views that the house has.
Uh, and for that very reason,um, you could take the same
footprint of this buildingbecause there are a lot of lots
in the city of Detroit and inthe Midwest in general that are
(24:58):
the same size as this lot.
And you could put it throughthis algorithm, and every single
one of them is going to be aunique structure.
They're all built the same way,they're all going to use the
same systems and constructiontypes, which means they're all
going to cost virtually the sameamount.
But every single one of thesehomes, these info homes that
we're going to work withpartners to develop, are going
(25:20):
to be unique to their context.
And that's that's the importantpart, is because you're not
going to see these bastions ofnowhereville where you just see
like every third house isrepeated.
You know, you get you've been inthose neighborhoods.
There's no identity, there's nocharacter.
Um, as opposed to like if youtook this house and put it on
(25:41):
the lot next door, it would be adifferent house, even if it's 60
feet away.
Uh, and I think that's what'sreally magical about the the
paradigm that we're we'reproposing here.
Um, is that yeah, it isrepeatable, but every single one
of them is gonna be unique asthe people that live in it.
SPEAKER_03 (26:02):
I love that.
I love that.
So, Breck, um you had mentionedearlier like a mistake or two.
What would you do, like thefirst two things that come to
your mind that you would dototally different, you would
never do again, you're mad atyourself, or you know, one of
(26:22):
those kind of things, like, ah,I could have done it better.
SPEAKER_00 (26:27):
Well, I would have had a crane, that's for damn
sure.
Uh we set all panels by hand,and uh I I don't think my my
shoulders will ever recover fromthat.
It was it's a really tight lot.
So the lot itself is only 30feet wide, it's a hundred feet
deep.
Um, you can't you can't chooseyour family and you can't choose
your neighbors.
(26:47):
I have been very fortunate andblessed on both uh of those uh
because my neighbors have beenfantastic.
And so they're very, verysupportive of the project and
allowed me to you know put theend of a ladder in their yard in
order to get access to my roof,things like that.
But as we start to infill theseand you've got a house
immediately adjacent to you onboth sides, it's gonna be more
(27:08):
challenging.
So I think some of thoseequipment lessons, um,
definitely something we learnedfrom that cost a lot more in
labor um than it did in the timeor the money that we may have
saved on that end.
Um, I went with a very, veryunique heating and cooling
system.
Um, it is an air-to-water heatpump.
(27:31):
Now, when I say that in theUnited States, most people are
like, I don't know what that is.
You've probably heard of anair-to-air heat pump, better
known as a mini-split.
This is not a mini-split.
This is a chiller unit.
And the chiller unit powers allof my heated floors throughout
the building.
It powers a chiller unit that'sa wall-mounted unit that looks
(27:51):
like a mini split, but it'sactually got fluid flowing
through it and then a fan thatblows over the fluid.
And it heats my domestic hotwater.
So, like showers, your kitchensink, a dishwasher, stuff like
that, all powered by thisair-to-water heat pump.
If you say this in Europe,people are like, oh, everybody's
got one.
That's kind of a problem becauseI was the only one to do this in
(28:13):
this entire region.
Nobody's ever heard of it.
So when you need an answer,nobody has one.
So we have to go figure out theanswer.
And when you need a part,they're all in metric.
So I can't just go around thecorner to the plumbing store and
buy the fitting.
I have to order from Germany andwait two weeks for it to get
here.
So it was it was interesting,and I'm glad that I did it.
(28:37):
Um, I will it will pay foritself within a few years of
usage uh because of howefficient it is.
I mean, my bills areexceptionally low, and it's the
real feel is 14 degrees outsideright now, um, as we speak, and
it's a nice toasty 71 degrees inhere, and my bills are very,
very minimal.
Like I'm paying between 75 and$100 a month for heating, and
(28:59):
it's like 2,000 square feet oflivable space.
Um, so I I think that's likeprobably one of the bigger ones.
And then uh I tried a steeljoist, floor joist, uh, that's
marketed so that you can uh runutilities through it.
It's supposed to make lifeeasier, and it was technically
cheaper than going with anengineered wood joist.
(29:21):
Uh, I would never use thoseagain as long as they live.
For two reasons.
One, because they're sharp asrazors.
And so when you tried to likepull anything like through the
holes that are meant for youknow utilities to run through,
it would like sheath wires, itwould like shape and cut stuff.
So I wrapped all the openingswith pool noodles so that they
don't, you know, cut ever cuteverything up to pieces.
(29:42):
Um, and then two, it's like whenyou're screwing wood into metal,
you're going between twodissimilar materials.
And so I started losing my mindlike halfway through the project
because you got like 10different drills and drivers and
50 different screws, and everysingle scenario required a
different type of screw, andyou're like, oh, it's over
there, so I gotta run over here.
And it just it got really,really difficult very quickly.
(30:04):
So the the less dissimilarmaterials that I could have, uh,
the better.
So you get your envelope in, andthen the rest I would just do,
and that would have saved us aton of time and headaches.
SPEAKER_03 (30:15):
I would be remiss if I didn't ask what was the best
thing you designed in the house.
SPEAKER_00 (30:24):
I love my bathroom.
Uh I I it it that space means alot to me in my house.
So, like the shower and thebathtub setup, it's a very
Japanese influence.
I did like a perfectly roundlike circle soaking tub.
Um, and it's got plants flowingout of it, and it's a walk-in
(30:47):
shower, and we custom tiled theentire thing.
That and and the lighting, Ispent a ridiculous amount of
time uh studying, studyinglighting, which uh Jill back to
one of your previous questions.
How did this make me a betterarchitect?
I think that's like it was oneof my weakest subjects, quite
frankly.
Uh, I just kind of like in areflected ceiling plan, I'm
(31:08):
like, ah, light's here, it looksgreat, move on.
And you didn't think aboutimmersing yourself in the space
and like what it means.
And so I did I can't even tellyou how many hours of research
uh in late nights, just liketesting different lighting and
uh and different colortemperatures.
And so there is not a light inthis house that is not an
integrated LED fixture that hasa variety of color temperatures
(31:31):
and is on a dimmer switch.
So I can control the mood andset the tone for any space in
this house at any given momentin time.
And I think that is likeprobably one of the biggest
wins.
And uh, and as Miriam spendsmore time in the house, she's
even acknowledging it.
She's like, the more I play withthe lighting, the better I like
it.
I'm like, that's the point.
(31:52):
Yes, I love it.
SPEAKER_03 (31:55):
Amazing.
SPEAKER_00 (31:56):
So people like the bridge too.
SPEAKER_02 (31:58):
We decided to pick an industry that's very
difficult to change.
Breck, you had touched on thisthat a lot of tradespeople are
not interested in working in ona house that's not typical
construction, something thatthey're not familiar with.
Versus if we've done a lot ofcomparing your house to either a
car or a smaller piece oftechnology like a cell phone
that updates way morefrequently, your house is
(32:22):
designed for the long haul.
It's designed well and it'srelevant now, as relevant as it
will be however long your houseis gonna last.
So, can you talk a little bitabout the overall greater
picture of home and where yousee this company and this
product going?
SPEAKER_00 (32:41):
I I mean I haven't thought of it in so many words,
Joe.
Uh I like your approach tothings.
Um it's built to last.
And I and I think that's likeone of the biggest
considerations um that we havethrough the design and the the
software that we're doing is umwe could make it even cheaper.
We could we could build for alot cheaper if we were just
(33:05):
building junk, which a lot ofpeople are.
I mean, there's manufacturedhousing going crazy right now.
It seems to be all the rage.
And uh you've heard me say itbefore, like I feel strongly
that like the majority ofhousing 10 years from now is
going to come out of a factory,um, which this home did.
Like the majority of it wasfabricated off-site, which sped
(33:27):
up a timeline.
You know, the panelized chunks,the the house, so where all the
utilities come from, that wasall pre-manufactured off-site
and brought to site and erected.
And um, and if we're thinkinglong term, um we could have done
it cheaper, but what we doinstead is think about the
lifetime value of a home.
(33:47):
And it's easy for me to positionmyself to have that conversation
because I'm living here rightnow.
But when we work with developersand with municipalities, because
that's where this is going andheading quickly, um, when we
talk to them about it, it'severybody wants to know what the
cost per square foot is.
What's cost?
What's cost?
Because the developer wants tomake their money and it's
somebody else's problem now,which means that they put in bad
(34:08):
cabinets.
They put in cheap windows, uhcheap doors, and it's somebody
else's problem.
Now, not only are those doorsand windows and cabinets cheap,
but they're gonna fall apartsoon.
So they're leaking air, they'renot keeping the hot air in or
the cold air in um veryefficiently, and they're gonna
break.
And now it's up to the homeownerwho bought that from a developer
(34:28):
to replace that.
What we're doing is we'refinding efficiencies in the
system.
And instead of just like makingit cheaper so that there's a
bigger profit margin, we'repassing that on to the ultimate
users of the building byinvesting in better, more
quality materials.
So better doors and windows, um,better countertops, better
(34:50):
cabinetry, things that will lastso that there's a lifetime cost
benefit and savings that'spassed on to the people who use
these buildings.
Um, we're not just here to makea profit, we're here to actually
make better buildings moreattainable and make sure that
they look good in the process.
SPEAKER_03 (35:07):
Just I on who would be the right person to pick up
the phone today and call home orcall three square to say, I want
a home product, I want a homedesign.
What who who's the right persontoday?
And it could be more than oneperson.
SPEAKER_00 (35:25):
Yeah, well, I mean, the right person today is, I
mean, if there is an infill lotthat can put a building on it, I
mean, that that is the targetaudience, but it makes the most
sense on an economy of scale.
So if you're an individualhomeowner and you want to build
a home next to you as like aninvestment property, or you want
to build a home because you ownproperty and you've had it
(35:46):
forever and you want to buildthere, sure, we'll have that
conversation.
Absolutely, 100%.
But the bigger conversationsthat we're having right now is
we're talking to mayors ofcities who are looking at 40,
60, 80 lots, 5,000 lots inCleveland was a recent
conversation.
City of Fort Wayne, city ofMuncie, Indiana, the city of
Detroit, Romulus, Michigan.
(36:08):
Like these are all cities thatwe are talking to.
And developers who know whatthey're doing, who have
experience in building homes,who are sick of the old paradigm
of doing things, who know thatthey're not going to turn a
profit.
Builders who feel bad aboutbuilding garbage and selling
that off, give us a call.
Because you understand it at itscore.
(36:30):
You know the problem, you knowwhere it's going, you know that
you're actually not buildingquality materials anymore, and
they're getting more expensive.
Those are the people we want totalk to, the people who can see
the bigger vision who have 20,30 lots that have unique
conditions spread throughout aneighborhood that all need this
infill.
And I know we've talked aboutlike infill might be something
(36:51):
that's unique to post-industrialregions, more so than other
areas.
Like, you know, LA doesn't needas much infill housing as like
Indiana does uh for some obviousreasons.
But if there are lots that areavailable to be developed at a
scale, knowing that each one ofthese homes is going to be
unique to its context, to itslocation and its
(37:13):
characteristics, um, those arethe people that we're talking
to.
SPEAKER_03 (37:18):
Wow.
Jill, any other final questionsor any other um questions or
things that you might want todiscover about this project,
this awesome and incredibleproject?
SPEAKER_02 (37:29):
I think I'll start to close things off by just
acknowledging the multipleendeavors that this project has
taken on as a whole.
Um, not only do you try toimprove things for the overall
housing industry and its enduser, you're also considering
things like environmentalfactors and not needing a
dumpster on the job site becauseyou're not producing as much
(37:50):
waste.
So many things that arecontributing to an overall
greater good and greater picturethat potentially a lot of
developers or builders aren'tnecessarily considering.
You've taken all of those thingson.
And not only have you taken themon, you've taken them on in the
city of Detroit, where welearned that there were only
eight building permitsdistributed across the past two
(38:13):
years.
Um, so I think that it wasneedless to say, this was a
difficult project, but you didwell.
You had a great team backing youbetween Three Squared and Home.
We have a real unique team herethat was willing to take on
something that I think manyother people would not
necessarily have been interestedin taking on.
So I just really want to commendyou and the team here, everyone
(38:34):
involved in this project.
Kudos and hats off to all of us.
SPEAKER_03 (38:38):
Yes, indeed.
Cheers, cheers.
SPEAKER_00 (38:41):
There's a fine line between being advantageous and
being stupid.
Uh I think I danced that line alittle bit.
Um, yeah, I'll I'll give myconcluding statement as um thank
you, Leslie Horn for the supportand for the graciousness that
(39:03):
you provided throughout thisentire process.
I remember like it wasyesterday, the day that I came
to you and I was like, I'm gonnabuild a house.
And you're like, a containerhouse.
And I'm like, nope, I gotsomething else.
And uh you looked at me with aside eye, but we had that
conversation, and look where weare today, and look who came and
saw the house, and look at thephone calls we're getting right
now and the conversations we'rehaving.
(39:24):
I'm excited for where this goes,but um, it's not it's not every
firm that you could work at thatuh would allow your your lead
architect to uh to work onnights and weekends so that you
know during those morning hoursyou could swing a hammer.
Um, so it's just like thesupport that I got here at Three
Squared wouldn't give it up forthe world.
(39:44):
It's such a unique team.
And uh and I can't thank youenough for everything.
Uh we wouldn't have this houseto be talking about if it wasn't
for you and for your leadershipin this company.
SPEAKER_03 (39:53):
Thank you, Brick, and you're welcome.
SPEAKER_00 (39:56):
And with that, we'll take it to a close.
This has been Innovative RealEstate with Three Squared Inc.
Uh, if you're interested inknowing more about the Cochrane
home, uh, we will be sharing iton social media.
Uh, I'm sure you've followedalong on some tidbits of that,
and it will also be featured onthe website.
And you can learn more about theprocess and the products that we
used uh for the panelizedconstruction of this, which is a
(40:19):
prefabricated product.
And we're doing lots ofdifferent projects with this,
not only with houses, but we'reuh we're starting to use this
for commercial buildings andlarger multi-unit apartments as
well.
Thanks for joining us.
We'll see you next time.
SPEAKER_01 (40:32):
Bye, everybody.
Thank you.
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