July 1, 2026 • 38 mins
Welcome to another episode of the Innovative Real Estate Podcast! In this episode, we sit down with Zackery Belanger, the visionary founder of the acoustic studio Umbel. Zack brings a wealth of unique educational and hands-on experience to the table, reshaping how we think about the relationship between physical structures and the soundscapes they create.
We dive deep into the fascinating world of architectural acoustics, exploring everything from the historical origins of the field to modern-day applications like the use of recycled foam for superior sound design at Detroit’s own El Club. Zack breaks down the complex elements of architecture, the truth about how materials like glass interact with sound, and practical methods for reducing sound travel in your own home. We also explore the importance of testing systems post-construction and how relentless curiosity drives true innovation in building design.
Episode Highlights:
- Zack Belanger’s work with Umbel.
- The intersection of architecture and sound.
- Designing El Club’s superior acoustics with recycled foam.
- The truth about glass as an acoustic absorber.
- Actionable methods for reducing sound travel at home.
- Why testing systems post-construction is a game-changer.
View the full Show Notes for Episode 81.
To learn more about Umbel, head over to their website, and connect with Zack on LinkedIn:
Check out Acoustic Ornament HERE.
Ready to move forward with your project? Contact us here and we will put you in contact with the right member of our team.
Make sure to follow us on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedInto stay up to date on new project releases, trainings, and more.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
How can we see acoustics in a more holistic
way?
One that includes ornamentationand the products.
SPEAKER_00 (00:06):
We could go down such a rabbit hole of philosophy
and theory at this point.
SPEAKER_02 (00:10):
The rise of modernism and things got more
and more reverberant.
It was this real separation ofacoustics from architecture.
I told you I was gonna learnthings today.
SPEAKER_01 (00:31):
Today we are coming back with a guest on the show,
which we're very excited to hostZachary Bellinger.
And um, we we are gonna talk alot about sound, uh, and um
we're gonna learn something.
I'm gonna learn something,that's for sure.
And hopefully we all walk awaywith a better understanding of
how sound operates and what wecan do to maybe control it and
(00:53):
why you can't really control it,and you should hire somebody who
knows what they're talkingabout, as we often talk so much
about on this podcast.
But uh I'm Breck.
We have Jill here with us today.
Jill, you want to say hi?
SPEAKER_00 (01:05):
Hello, Director of Projects here.
SPEAKER_01 (01:08):
And we have Zach.
So I will do my best to give hima handoff introduction because a
man educated in gravitationalphysics, trained in acoustic
architecture, and immersed inpitting these two experiences
against each other is is hard towrap into words.
I know Zach because uh I playplayed music.
(01:30):
I'm a lifelong musician, and uh,so I go to a lot of shows now,
and I've been standing in aroom.
Uh, it's it's one of my favoritevenues in the entire city of
Detroit.
It was my favorite venue to everplay in the city of Detroit, and
that's El Club.
And I'm standing there and I'mlike, wow, this sounds so good.
And then because I'm anarchitect, I'm required to look
(01:51):
up in every room that I enter.
So I looked up and I was like,oh wow, this is really cool.
And then I looked at the wallsand I looked around me and I'm
like, it sounds good because itwas designed by somebody.
Turns out that somebody happensto be on the call with us today.
Uh, and so Jill tracked him downand found his studio, which
we're gonna talk about.
(02:11):
And we actually got to go overthere and meet him and tour him.
And uh, and now we're friends, Ithink, if you'll accept us.
unknown (02:18):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (02:19):
All right.
Well, that's enough blabberingfrom me.
Zach, thanks for coming on theshow today.
Uh, nice to meet you.
Why don't you say hello to theaudience and tell us a bit about
who you are and what you do?
SPEAKER_02 (02:30):
Um, yeah, uh, thanks for having me.
It's nice to nice to be here, beable to talk about acoustics a
bit.
Um you you covered the basicsthere.
I I'm um a consultant inacoustics, I and I get into
design and experimental work aswell.
That's it in a nutshell.
SPEAKER_00 (02:50):
Can you tell us a little bit more about your
background with everything inNew York?
Your residence at theexperimental media and
performing arts center inparticular?
SPEAKER_02 (02:59):
Yeah, I well, I studied physics originally, and
then I decided I wanted to be anarchitect.
And I didn't become anarchitect, but I did have some
schooling in architecture uh inChicago, actually at UIC.
Um, and there I landed a jobwith a company called
Kierkegaard Associates, awell-established um firm,
(03:24):
acoustics consulting firm.
And the most important project Iworked on when I was there,
which was in the aughts, was theExperimental Media and
Performing Arts Center, MPAC,out in Troy, New York.
And uh that project opened, thatwas by Grimshaw Architects.
And when I say it was uh animportant project, I just mean
(03:45):
that we we had we innovated alot of things.
The the the synergy between thearchitect and consultant was was
great.
And um the owner of ownershipand the owner's representative,
the director of MPAC, his namewas Johannes Gobel.
He's since retired.
Um, he was great.
(04:06):
So that these parts cametogether, and this really
spectacular building came out ofit that um really is not like
anything I've been involved insince.
And I don't honestly expect tobe involved in anything like it
ever again.
Um when my time at Kierkegaardwas coming to a close around
2010, I decided to go out toTroy, New York.
(04:29):
I basically followed thebuilding out there because I
think one of the unfortunatethings about architecture is
that when you're done with aproject, you just move on to the
next one.
You often don't get a chance toreally learn about what you just
did.
And so I needed a bit of achange and I had an opportunity
out there to go spend time inand around the building that I
(04:50):
had worked on.
And so I did that for um aboutfive years.
I actually enrolled in theSchool of Architecture at RPI,
intending to do a PhD and aloop-in research on MPAC while I
was there.
That didn't go as planned, uh,but I did end up doing a
research residency at MPAC.
(05:12):
And um, that's really the theplace where I started to think,
I think differently about how weapproach acoustics, where I
really started to ask thequestion of why it felt so
separated from architecture.
Um, and eventually when my timein Troy was done, I I decided to
move to Detroit and start abusiness.
(05:33):
And that's where I still am.
SPEAKER_01 (05:37):
So you got a you got the chance to work on a
once-in-a-lifetime opportunity,and then you took a
once-in-a-lifetime opportunityafter that to stick around and
to immerse yourself in thatwork.
That's that's not an opportunitythat a lot of people get to
have, which is which isincredible.
And I think that's that's athing that keeps this this
industry so on its toes and fastmoving, is that we're never
(06:00):
doing the same thing twice.
Um, but that also, yeah, thatcan be that can definitely be a
tough reality when like thingsare happening so fast.
Like a lot of things are underconstruction, you know, and we
can't be there every singlephase of things like uh like
we'd like to be, certainly.
Um, because it'd be a learningexperience.
(06:20):
But yeah, buildings arecomplicated.
And this is a good reminder thatlike I tell people architecture
is a good, well-roundedprofession that includes a lot
of things.
It is getting more complicateddaily, not less complicated.
And you're a great example of ofhow many, many different tracks
uh of careers are birthed out ofjust that education and a
(06:43):
starting point to round you andget you interested in the arts
on like more of a professionallevel.
SPEAKER_02 (06:48):
Yeah, I I I agree completely.
And and in acoustics, it's ittends to attract people who have
um a mix of backgrounds, somemix of architecture, uh physics,
mathematics, music.
Nobody comes with all of thosethings, engineering.
Um, but most people come withlike two of them, and then
you're and then you're justlearning so much uh on the job.
(07:11):
I mean, I I came into acousticswith uh substantial education in
physics and a little bit ofarchitecture um education, uh,
but everything about acousticsand everything about how
buildings actually go together,I learned on the job uh while I
was at Kierkegaard Associates.
It's it's amazing how much youdon't know about one of those
(07:34):
fields that you really need toknow a lot about.
And honestly, I'm amazed thatbuildings come together at all.
It it is so so many movingparts, you know, and and so many
really critical moving parts.
I mean, acoustics often is notthought about because there are
other more important things likesafety, for example, uh, that
that architects have to thinkabout.
SPEAKER_01 (07:57):
But it comes down to comfort and and comfort of
space.
Like that's that's the un that'sit's the intangible thing about
buildings that you can't explainto people.
And then that's that's hard.
Like it is a science to it, butalso like it is hard to explain
to people why.
Like, if I move this window, nowall of a sudden the building
(08:17):
looks ugly, and nobody can likereally express why, but you're
like, it's wrong, something'swrong.
Uh, I think people feel out ofplace in a lot of areas, and
then it's like, yeah, it'smoisture and humidity content in
the air, it's the acoustics,it's this these things that you
can't necessarily touch and feelas part of a building, but
they're so integral to this.
But to you know, to this wholeconversation, like architects
(08:40):
have been doing this a longtime, and we're gonna be doing
this a long time in the future.
I know that your work has kindof bridged this fine line
between like performance and andaesthetic, like truly art.
I mean, I know like some of thepeople who are who are listening
in this podcast aren't gonna beable to see behind you, but I
know you're sitting in yourstudio, which I've visited, and
(09:00):
you've got a very cool sculptureon the wall behind you that that
does help mitigate some sound alittle bit.
But uh you uh you were theauthor of an essay that I've
I've picked up on on theinternet um about acoustic
ornament.
I'm wondering if this is alltied into like what's your take
in terms of like how acousticsplay a role in architecture and
(09:22):
how they can how they can kindof dance together, I guess.
SPEAKER_02 (09:25):
Yeah, uh big it's a big question.
Um, but uh if I if I try to makeit concise, um I would say that
we currently don't recognize howintegral acoustics already is to
our buildings.
(09:45):
And what what I mean by that isevery time you make a decision
about the size of a room, aboutthe materials of the wall, about
what's going to be in that room,about the shape of the room,
about the structure if it'sexposed, you're actually making
decisions that that affectacoustics.
And I think that one of thebiggest problems of 20th century
(10:07):
acoustics was that we had thisproductization.
I still I use that word a lot.
I don't think it's actually aword, but a productization of
acoustics, where we started tothink about acoustics only as
the products that we buy and addto the space.
And we lost track, I think, ofthe fact that everything else uh
really, really matters.
(10:28):
And there was a time not thatlong ago before modernism when
uh ornamentation was prevalent.
It was three-dimensional, it wasvisually beautiful, and it was
it was um adding complexity tothe shape of our rooms, and it
was therefore helping the soundof our rooms.
Uh, ornamentation really, as faras I'm concerned, there was
(10:50):
never a time when it didn't havea function.
It always had at least anacoustic function, whether it
was intentional or not.
And so in the 20th century, Ithink a lot of that
ornamentation went away with therise of modernism and things got
more and more reverberant, andwe started to add acoustic
panels in to take care of thatreverberation.
And it was this real separation,I think, of acoustics from from
(11:13):
architecture.
And that's really the basis ofthe of the essay is that the
that I'm actually a big believerin the acoustic products.
I work with a lot of greatproduct manufacturers.
And the nice thing is that thoseproducts are engineered to have
a very strong effect on theroom, but it would be a mistake
to think that that's the onlything that has a strong effect
(11:34):
on the room.
And the essay Acoustic Ornamentreally just tries to dig into
that and ask Um, you know, howcan we see acoustics in a more
uh holistic way?
One that includes ornamentationas we, you know, and the
products as we move forward.
SPEAKER_01 (11:51):
See, I told you I was gonna learn things today.
You're I mean, you're you'reputting me into a totally
different thought process herebecause uh I mean, yeah,
acoustics were designed intobuildings that we learn about in
like in Greece.
Like, you know, like I we don'ttalk about them today unless
it's an auditorium.
Then of course you have to, youknow, mind the sound panels and
(12:13):
the silly framed roof and allthis other weird stuff.
But like other than that,nobody's talking about this.
Like, there was no pioneer likethere was of like advent of
lighting or color orlandscaping.
Like, I have a silly question.
Maybe it's not silly to you, butlike who were who who is like a
a household name, a pioneer ofsound in space that we would
(12:36):
recognize?
Like who sets the stage for usthinking about sound in spaces?
SPEAKER_02 (12:42):
Uh I don't know.
That's a good question.
I mean, the one who started allof this um in the late 19th
century in the 1890s was WallaceSaban.
You might have heard of Sabinet.
Yes.
We named him after, yeah.
So uh we named that after Saban.
Um, but the field of acousticsreally didn't get started until
(13:04):
about the middle of the 20thcentury.
And it was a couple of uh firms,Leo Baranek in particular was
one of the pioneers in thatworld.
Um, also an acquisition with thename of Vanaklazen.
And then there's a there's ahandful of them.
Um, you know, but those originalfirms, they advanced and split
(13:24):
off and you know, created newfirms, and we're really only a
few generations deep into this,into this field.
And so um it's relatively new,and I don't think there are a
whole lot of famous people.
There are there are acquisitionswho we all know about, but
they're not household names inthe way that a lot of famous
(13:45):
architects are, for example.
SPEAKER_01 (13:47):
So interesting.
And I have to imagine that a lotof it does come down to building
sciences.
And I guess I I accidentallymade a good point earlier, which
is like the idea of like amaster builder where one
individual could understand likeevery component of a large
structure and like oversee itcoming together.
(14:08):
It's gone.
It's out the window.
Like, I don't know how an ACcompressor works from top to
bottom.
There's somebody who does.
Um, and we all have to worktogether.
It is the buildings are theproduct of a village.
Like, there's hundreds,thousands of people that are
contributing their efforts,whether they're physically there
on site or whether they'remanufacturing parts that are
(14:28):
coming together as componentsthat assemble modern buildings.
That's hard to control sound inthat, as opposed to like, hey,
it's shaped stone and we'regonna set these blocks in this
position.
That you can start to understandsound.
So uh tall order from your lineof work.
And I think this bridges into uma great opportunity to for you
(14:50):
to talk about the work thatyou're doing today, because you
are kind of unique.
I haven't met a whole lot ofstudios that are doing exactly
what you're doing.
Um, I'm gonna say I haven't metany other studios that are doing
what you're doing.
And if I have met them, they'vetalked to you.
So um, so why don't you talk alittle bit about your studio?
Uh, tell us what it is, how wecan find you.
(15:11):
Let's start there.
Um, and then let's move on tolike who are the clients that
you're working with and some ofthe projects you'd like to
highlight for us.
SPEAKER_02 (15:17):
Sure.
Um, yeah, the name of my studiois Umbull.
Uh, it's named after a flowerstructure, U M B E L.
And this is a relatively newrebrand for us.
I think for um a long time, alot of my work was falling under
the name ArcGeometer, which isnot a great name from a business
and marketing perspective.
(15:38):
It's a little bit um toocomplicated, even though it's
made of very simple parts.
Um, but I decided uh recentlythat I needed to get serious
about telling the world aboutwhat we're doing here.
And um, you know, there's anumber of lenses you can look at
it through.
One of them is standardconsulting, which means that we
(15:58):
can be hired to be a part of adesign team and we will help
guide the architects, theinterior designers, the building
owners in their decision makingso that their buildings perform
acoustically.
And we work on not just um roomsthat are critical to sound, like
(16:18):
recording studios and performingarts centers.
We also do a lot of normalbuildings like residential and
office spaces and things,really, really any you can bring
acoustic knowledge to anyarchitectural project and make
it better.
Uh so the core is reallyconsulting.
Um, we have an arm of that thatI think we're the only ones
(16:39):
doing this right now, where weactually also provide consulting
services to manufacturers ofproducts.
Like we were we were integral inthe combining of acoustics and
lighting that uh LiteArt led theway on back in 2017.
And we also do a lot of work fora company called Three Form,
(16:59):
which most people have heard of.
Um, they have an acousticsdivision and a handful of other
ones too.
Faultright is one of our is alsoone of our clients.
They're doing really wellhitting the um the uh you know,
red not just the residentialmarket, but making it easier for
people to buy to buy um acousticproducts.
Uh but then the more interestingstuff to me is like the more
(17:23):
experimental work, thinkingdifferently about sound.
It even really starts to pushinto the art world, I think,
because we do things that are alot more sculptural, a lot more
visual.
We are trying to push theboundaries of materials and how
they're used acoustically andask interesting questions and uh
present interestinginstallations that that we that
(17:47):
we hope help uh move the theconversation forward.
SPEAKER_00 (17:51):
I'm gonna jump in because I know that we touched
briefly on this beautifulsculpture that's behind you.
So that was one of your officeexperiments.
But then you also gave us areally charming story about L
Club when we wanted to hear moreof the history about how that
space came to be and why is thissound so superior to any other
music venue that we've been to?
And it's right here in ourhometown in Detroit.
(18:13):
I was wondering if you couldhighlight a little bit since
we're already on that topic.
SPEAKER_02 (18:17):
Uh on L Club?
SPEAKER_00 (18:18):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (18:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That one was a yeah, that wasabout 10 years ago, I guess, at
the time.
And the architect was Lavu.
Um, that was Kaya Woolett's umfirm.
Uh, I believe it's sincedissolved, but um that might not
be true.
Don't hold me to that.
SPEAKER_01 (18:35):
Yeah, I believe she she moved town.
Um, she still has a firm and isoperating.
Yeah, good did good work whenshe was in Detroit, too.
SPEAKER_02 (18:42):
Excellent work, yeah.
Yeah.
Um, so that one, let me see.
The the the part of it that Ithink is pretty fascinating is
that when you go in, youbasically see all the normal
materials uh that you wouldexpect in an existing building.
There's a lot of concrete block.
I believe there's a plasterlayer on the wall.
You see concrete floors.
(19:04):
If you look up in a lot of partsof the ceiling, you see exposed
wood joists.
You also see these veryprominent uh large melamine foam
wedges.
Um, and those are really seriousacoustic treatment.
They are about two feet deep, Ithink, and they're blocks of
(19:24):
basotect uh melamine foam.
And uh the story goes thatthere's no way that that project
could afford um that kind ofacoustic foam.
But uh it just happened at thetime that I heard of a uh an art
installation, an artist nameHenri Sala, I believe.
(19:45):
He had an installation in NewYork City at the New Museum.
And uh this installation wasonly to last about three months,
and he uh had an incrediblebudget, apparently, because they
covered the walls and I thinkeven some of the floor with
these really deep foam wedges.
And I had heard from a friendthat those wedges were going to
(20:06):
be discarded at the end of thefront, at the end of the
installation, so which seemscrazy by the way, because that's
some expensive foam.
I I think it was hundreds ofthousands of dollars worth of
foam.
Um you know, we added up justgetting tossed.
Yeah, because it's different.
Foam is tough to ship becauseit's I mean, it's lightweight,
(20:26):
but it just takes up a lot ofspace, you know, so you need a
lot of room.
And uh I have a good friend umout from my Troy days named Ben
Chatterby.
And we got to talking, wehatched a plan to um basically
show up with a couple ofsemi-trucks at the new museum
and haul away the felt wedges.
And one of the trucks um wentupstate, and we parted some of
(20:49):
the wedges out to a couple ofprojects up there, and one of
them came to Detroit, and that'sthe the wedges on the ceiling of
the outclub came from thatinstallation, they were diverted
from a landfill basically.
And it was really lucky.
SPEAKER_01 (21:04):
There's the truth of the matter.
Like, I mean, my resume wouldsay like repurposed
installation, but like the truthof the matter was like that that
sound attenuation that blew mymind was picked out of a trash.
unknown (21:18):
It's okay.
SPEAKER_02 (21:19):
And then so when you look at the room, I mean it was
such a beautiful alignmentbecause you need not just
something like that, but likethese wedges, uh, or you that's
what you really want.
But that room is so massive,it's so heavy, um, and it's good
proportions that you, you know,if you could design it from the
ground up, you'd be asking forconcrete floor, you'd be asking
(21:41):
for walls that were that heavy.
And it just happens that on theceiling where there aren't
wedges, that the joists act as avery nice natural diffusion.
And then where the wedges are,it's a very deep absorption.
So you've got you've got thisreally nice, this lovely mix of
things.
And doesn't hurt that theyinvested in a great audio system
(22:03):
there.
I wouldn't be able to even tellyou who the manufacturer was,
but um but you could look it up.
But yeah that helps a lot too.
So yeah that is a it's a lovelylittle club.
I think all of the parts reallyreally came together well.
SPEAKER_01 (22:17):
I think it's just a great project uh to highlight as
we have a brief conversationwith you here today is because
like after meeting you and andseeing your website and then
seeing the work that you'reactually doing in practice, uh
it's not like I I get thecorporate side of things.
Like you design some of theseproducts and you help with the
(22:39):
testing of these products thatlike just get absorbed into the
building universe like drywallor nails do.
But on the other hand likeyou're so artistic and you're
you're scrappy honestly with it.
Like what's a word I'm I'm I'mlike I'm looking for but it's
like the creativity uh like thethe ingenuity that you and your
(23:00):
team are are pulling off it'slike what what do we have you
know it's the it's the trueingenuity of it that that really
excites me.
I mean I I remember I wastapping on some glass on your
floor and I was kind of curiousand you're like oh yeah those
are the those are the windshieldthe car windshields were melting
into position and then pokingholes in so that they you know
(23:20):
control sound and my my brain isjust melting in in your studio.
SPEAKER_02 (23:25):
So like one of the one of the uh maybe it's worth a
couple words about that projectum because that was a that's one
that we're really proud of um itwas done it's called long range
and it was done in collaborationwith Katie Newell and Wes McGee
both at the University ofMichigan but um glass has this
really bad reputation inacoustics for being
(23:46):
reverberation promoting um butwhen you look at acoustic
absorbers like fiberglass youyou see that it's also glass so
fiberglass is glass and plateglass is glass and so that begs
the question what's happeningthere?
Why is one version of it reallyreflective to sound and one
version's absorptive and if yougo deeper into that you start to
(24:11):
think about shape and how shapeand scale and how much those
things matter.
And that's this type of thinkingwhich is also covered in
acoustic ornament led us to thisidea that we're going to take
auto glass and start to shape itto try to get to take it from
this reflective condition to getum diffusion and absorption and
(24:34):
transmission and really try toget all of the acoustic
properties out of it.
And it led to a single quitesculptural installation I think
it's about 30 feet long wherewhen you go from one side you
start out um as a reflectacoustically reflective and it
gets increasingly complicated inits shape as you move down the
length of it it goes intoacoustically diffusive and
(24:55):
acoustically absorptive.
And the whole point of thatproject was just to show that if
you understand how form andmaterial work and how they
relate to acoustics you canreally get into some some really
interesting design territory.
SPEAKER_01 (25:09):
Well it's almost like you took it as a challenge
you're like I'm gonna take thethe worst material possible and
we're gonna make it somethinguseful.
SPEAKER_02 (25:16):
That's what we did.
We went up taking it to theacoustic lab and the only thing
I wanted was to just getabsorption out of it like
significant absorption and toshow that that absorption
increased as the form changed.
And yeah it didn't even matterto me whether it was really high
absorption or anything.
We just wanted to show we coulddo it.
SPEAKER_00 (25:35):
And I think it's a really beautiful form of
relentless curiosity andtrademark that for your team
because I think that that's whatsuits you really well to have
these types of conversationswith architects that are also
curious about how we can be moreinnovative about materials that
just already exist and how do wetest them and figure out how it
impacts the space that we're inlike that type of feedback is so
(25:58):
cool to me.
SPEAKER_02 (25:59):
Yeah yeah I'm glad to hear it I I find that too I
mean the architects are the oneswho get really excited about
this.
Like every architect should knowthat a waffle slab is better
acoustically than a flat slab.
And they're both concrete,right?
So that's in now we're in reallyinteresting territory.
Why is that?
Why is it that something that'sprimarily structural and
(26:20):
somewhat visual actuallyperforms better acoustically
than something that is that isflat.
And that's way more interestingthan you should put you know
fiberglass panel up on yourwallet, which is um which is an
oversimplification but a lot ofconsulting is that we just tell
people how much product andwhere to add it.
But there is a yeah there's amuch more interesting
(26:41):
conversation to be had where umacoustic starts to overlap with
all of the things that thatarchitects care about.
SPEAKER_00 (26:50):
Well Zach, we also had you over Breck's house and
so something I wanted to touchbase on was a lot of clients
keep coming to us with askingabout like what are some easy
methods that are not costprohibitive to implement into my
house.
So residential application tocontrol noise.
And we had you over Breck'shouse because speaking of foam
(27:11):
panels reused at L Club, let'stalk about Breck's house being
literally built out of SIPS foampanels.
And so it's so sound tight thatyou could literally hear a pen
drop from one room all the wayacross the house.
So we really honed in onspecific rooms and specific
applications where minor detailswere going to make a big impact.
SPEAKER_02 (27:30):
Can you touch uh a little bit on some of those that
we talked about yeah absolutelyum I think it's it's it's pretty
interesting that when it comesto um um sound transfer, sound
getting across a wall system,let's say like from the exterior
of a house to the interior um ithas a lot to do with the mass of
(27:52):
the house it has a lot to dowith how well sealed it is so it
really starts to overlap withthermal uh properties too if
your house is very well sealedthermally it is likely also
pretty good acoustically doublepane windows are good for uh for
slowing heat transfer they'realso good for slowing sound and
you and you you as you alreadymentioned uh there's a downside
(28:14):
to that because if your house isreally quiet then the internal
sound the room acoustics or howsound might transfer between
spaces becomes more noticeableso I always have to say that the
very best way to tackle theseproblems is in the design phase.
It's when you're looking at theway the rooms are laid out
relative to each other.
(28:35):
That's always the best time tomake decisions about layout that
could help you acousticallysimple things like making sure
that the media room where youknow somebody might be watching
the movie is not directlyadjacent to your bedroom where
somebody might want quiet.
But assuming you already have ahouse that's built there is
still quite a bit that you cando.
(28:56):
If you don't mind somerenovation and light
construction, um adding mass toyour walls is a really good way
to do it.
An extra layer of gypsum boardhelps a great deal when it comes
to reducing sound transfer.
Sealing things up helps a lot.
We see that a lot where you knowif two rooms are both if there's
(29:17):
an interior wall that separatestwo rooms there's often not
really a need thermally toisolate that to seal it up and
you know use insulation in thecavity.
But if you seal things up soundtransfer uh will get better.
SPEAKER_00 (29:35):
Well the sound transfer will be reduced it will
be better acoustically yeahsomething I did want to ask
about specifically because weget this question so much from
our clients and we typicallyrespond with well sound moves
the way that water moves so themore openings that you have the
more that sound is going topenetrate.
So what about in a loft slashmezzanine type application?
SPEAKER_02 (29:56):
Yeah uh manage expectations is one uh yeah
there's um there's an there's anacoustics researcher and expert
named Michael Erman who oncesaid that if you're sharing air,
you're sharing sound and I lovethat and I say it all the time.
I think it's a great way tothink about this.
(30:16):
It is similar to the way thatwater moves.
So if you imagine filling up aroom with water and you ask
where would that water find itsway through the wall into other
spaces um then that's that's agood indication of the way the
sound will move too.
When you have something like anopen mezzanine um there is
shared air.
(30:36):
So there always will be soundthat transfers between the
mezzanine and the the area belowuh you can however uh reduce it
a bit if you if you map out umhow sound might reflect off of a
surface you could always coverthat surface with something
absorptive you know to it toimprove it uh but these are
(30:57):
these are these are incrementalchanges that um that sometimes
add up to make somebody happybut it would never offer you
know true privacy you youwouldn't want a a mezzanine with
a private office or an officethat was supposed to be private
on top of a living room belowthere's just no way to ever get
true privacy that way unlessyou're willing to block it off
(31:17):
with class or something.
SPEAKER_00 (31:18):
Yeah and you do you mentioned something really
interesting which was likegraphs to implicate the data
afterwards.
And I think that's somethingthat we're increasingly
encouraging our clients to spenda little bit of dollars on.
And a lot of times by the timeyou get to that point people are
like well my project is done I'mgonna call it a day I'm gonna
just enjoy my space but havingtangible data to give you proof
(31:42):
that a system is working, Ithink is so important.
So we did talk about some ofthose tests that you could apply
at Brex House.
Could you kind of touch base onwhat are some of the tests that
you offer and how often are youactually doing them in
residential applications?
SPEAKER_02 (31:57):
Yeah a typical test let's say for sound transfer
would be um you would take aloudspeaker and put it in one
space and you'd put a microphonein the other and you can you can
actually measure how much thatsound is being knocked down or
blocked by the wall thatseparates the two.
And this is this is a this iseasily quantifiable we have
(32:21):
metrics for this sort of thing.
And you can most importantlyyou're you're checking to see if
it's if it's performing as itwas designed because if it's not
it might mean that there'ssomething wrong.
I think a lot of contractorsonce they understand some of the
basics of this like you needinga good seal they are happy to
(32:41):
accommodate you but they oftenaren't aware of that.
So for example if you have apipe that's penetrating across a
wall if that leaves an air gaparound it and that allows air to
flow then sound will transferand the whole wall will be
compromised from a soundtransfer performance
perspective.
So those tests can help youidentify um where you need a
(33:06):
little bit of follow through inthe construction.
And there are also tests forroom acoustics we can test
reverberation time and things aswell we can quantify just about
anything.
We don't get to do a lot ofthose tests it is an extra cost
but we find that it gives a lotof peace of mind to to some
clients who who really just carethat their house is going to
(33:29):
perform the way that it should.
SPEAKER_00 (33:31):
Have you ever had a surprise result from one of
those tests that you were justlike wow I wasn't expecting this
yeah uh it the surprises go bothways.
SPEAKER_02 (33:40):
I mean you frequently get surprises where
you learn that the wall isn'tperforming the way it should be
and then you have to diagnoseit.
You have to track down what'shappening.
It's not always visible rightbecause it could be uh there
could be a piece of trim orsomething over a gap in the wall
and you have to figure out thatthat that's there.
Um it's it doesn't happen veryoften that surprises us in the
(34:03):
other direction but it'shappened once or twice that
we're surprised how well a wallperforms uh you basically you
when you design walls you setit's called STC you've probably
heard of it sound transmissionclass you set STC goals and we
know generally what what walltypes align with what STC
ratings and um and every once ina while you get you you you
(34:26):
always expect them to perform alittle worse in the field than
you designed them.
We leave about a five pointmargin for that but every once
in a while the wall will justoutperform what you think and
don't always know why, but youdefinitely don't question it.
SPEAKER_00 (34:40):
We could go down such a rabbit hole philosophy
and theory at this point becauseit's so like tangential to what
happens in architecture whereyou produce a rendering and it's
like well is it better or worsethan the actual built results
that's a pretty interestingcomment.
One question I did want to wrapup with going back to your essay
on acoustical ornamentation Iwas just a little bit curious
(35:01):
because you know the saying thedevil is in the details it's
actually coined by a Starkitect.
And so I was curious uh Mies VanDerot is the one that said that
he actually said God is in thedetails.
So that's what I wanted to askyou.
What is your opinion?
Is the devil or God in thedetails?
SPEAKER_02 (35:20):
Oh that's a I have no idea I would I I'd probably
go you know what I I would needto understand the implications
of both of those.
I know that's a boring answer.
Um I know that the details domatter a great deal.
SPEAKER_00 (35:37):
And I know but I think that well go ahead yeah
well what I was getting at is Ithink you said something really
important earlier where resultsaren't always visual
acoustically so some peoplemight say well ornamentation is
just an added fee.
I don't have money for this butsometimes that is the factor
that's producing better sound.
SPEAKER_02 (35:56):
Yeah that's yes that's right and I do think that
Mies was wrong in his pursuit ofum reducing ornamentation and
stripping everything back inthat way.
And I think that in part it'sbecause they they we didn't I
think look hard enough into whatthat ornamentation was doing.
And there's also a culturalangle here that's that's
(36:18):
incredibly important.
I mean to claim thatornamentation has no function
that's a that's just a reallybig claim and I think it's uh I
think it's wrong.
You know but but what'sinteresting I guess for me in my
daily work is that there is thisacoustic underpinning to so much
of that ornamentation.
(36:40):
Even if somebody did argue thatyeah that uh the cultural
reasons to keep ornamentationweren't valid which I don't
agree with but even if they didyou've also got this this
building performance reason forit.
And I think that it onceacoustics is in the mix you open
up a lot of other possibilities.
(37:00):
I mean the the wall of chairsbehind me that was really just
an exercise in taking existingfurniture and asking how how
could we make this furnituremore impactful acoustically and
do something interesting withit.
And in that way it is ornamentalright in that it it has a look
and it's contributing visuallyto the room.
(37:21):
It's also contributing umacoustically to the room and we
use it for seating we pull themdown when we need them.
So they see you did that for uswhen we toured that's right yeah
you just pull them down asneeded and so it's this really
um and I'm glad that people likethe way it looks because who
knows right before you know onceyou do it but uh you never know
whether you're gonna like theend of it.
(37:41):
So I I think I sidestepped yourquestion a little but I um you
know no I think you actuallyanswered it answered it.
SPEAKER_00 (37:47):
I think there's so much we can unpack here it
wasn't like a light questionit's actually deeply loaded with
a ton of response.
So I appreciate you answeringthat on the fly.
Well I do want to start to wrapus up so I definitely want to
make sure that people can reachout to you if they're interested
can you just name drop yourwebsite socials and some other
resources yeah umble.design umbe l dot design is the is the
(38:13):
best way to find us um I do havesome print copies of acoustic
ornament left if anybody wantsany we had a printing error that
like turned out to be a uh afortuitous thing because we we
ended up with uh a lot morecopies than we expected and so
um those are available ifanybody wants one just get in
(38:34):
get in touch with amazing wellthank you so much for joining us
today and I think we have somuch more that we can continue
to collaborate on.
So I appreciate your time thankyou Joe see you next time here
on innovative real estate withFreeSquared
How can we see acoustics in a more holistic
way?
One that includes ornamentationand the products.
SPEAKER_00 (00:06):
We could go down such a rabbit hole of philosophy
and theory at this point.
SPEAKER_02 (00:10):
The rise of modernism and things got more
and more reverberant.
It was this real separation ofacoustics from architecture.
I told you I was gonna learnthings today.
SPEAKER_01 (00:31):
Today we are coming back with a guest on the show,
which we're very excited to hostZachary Bellinger.
And um, we we are gonna talk alot about sound, uh, and um
we're gonna learn something.
I'm gonna learn something,that's for sure.
And hopefully we all walk awaywith a better understanding of
how sound operates and what wecan do to maybe control it and
(00:53):
why you can't really control it,and you should hire somebody who
knows what they're talkingabout, as we often talk so much
about on this podcast.
But uh I'm Breck.
We have Jill here with us today.
Jill, you want to say hi?
SPEAKER_00 (01:05):
Hello, Director of Projects here.
SPEAKER_01 (01:08):
And we have Zach.
So I will do my best to give hima handoff introduction because a
man educated in gravitationalphysics, trained in acoustic
architecture, and immersed inpitting these two experiences
against each other is is hard towrap into words.
I know Zach because uh I playplayed music.
(01:30):
I'm a lifelong musician, and uh,so I go to a lot of shows now,
and I've been standing in aroom.
Uh, it's it's one of my favoritevenues in the entire city of
Detroit.
It was my favorite venue to everplay in the city of Detroit, and
that's El Club.
And I'm standing there and I'mlike, wow, this sounds so good.
And then because I'm anarchitect, I'm required to look
(01:51):
up in every room that I enter.
So I looked up and I was like,oh wow, this is really cool.
And then I looked at the wallsand I looked around me and I'm
like, it sounds good because itwas designed by somebody.
Turns out that somebody happensto be on the call with us today.
Uh, and so Jill tracked him downand found his studio, which
we're gonna talk about.
(02:11):
And we actually got to go overthere and meet him and tour him.
And uh, and now we're friends, Ithink, if you'll accept us.
unknown (02:18):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (02:19):
All right.
Well, that's enough blabberingfrom me.
Zach, thanks for coming on theshow today.
Uh, nice to meet you.
Why don't you say hello to theaudience and tell us a bit about
who you are and what you do?
SPEAKER_02 (02:30):
Um, yeah, uh, thanks for having me.
It's nice to nice to be here, beable to talk about acoustics a
bit.
Um you you covered the basicsthere.
I I'm um a consultant inacoustics, I and I get into
design and experimental work aswell.
That's it in a nutshell.
SPEAKER_00 (02:50):
Can you tell us a little bit more about your
background with everything inNew York?
Your residence at theexperimental media and
performing arts center inparticular?
SPEAKER_02 (02:59):
Yeah, I well, I studied physics originally, and
then I decided I wanted to be anarchitect.
And I didn't become anarchitect, but I did have some
schooling in architecture uh inChicago, actually at UIC.
Um, and there I landed a jobwith a company called
Kierkegaard Associates, awell-established um firm,
(03:24):
acoustics consulting firm.
And the most important project Iworked on when I was there,
which was in the aughts, was theExperimental Media and
Performing Arts Center, MPAC,out in Troy, New York.
And uh that project opened, thatwas by Grimshaw Architects.
And when I say it was uh animportant project, I just mean
(03:45):
that we we had we innovated alot of things.
The the the synergy between thearchitect and consultant was was
great.
And um the owner of ownershipand the owner's representative,
the director of MPAC, his namewas Johannes Gobel.
He's since retired.
Um, he was great.
(04:06):
So that these parts cametogether, and this really
spectacular building came out ofit that um really is not like
anything I've been involved insince.
And I don't honestly expect tobe involved in anything like it
ever again.
Um when my time at Kierkegaardwas coming to a close around
2010, I decided to go out toTroy, New York.
(04:29):
I basically followed thebuilding out there because I
think one of the unfortunatethings about architecture is
that when you're done with aproject, you just move on to the
next one.
You often don't get a chance toreally learn about what you just
did.
And so I needed a bit of achange and I had an opportunity
out there to go spend time inand around the building that I
(04:50):
had worked on.
And so I did that for um aboutfive years.
I actually enrolled in theSchool of Architecture at RPI,
intending to do a PhD and aloop-in research on MPAC while I
was there.
That didn't go as planned, uh,but I did end up doing a
research residency at MPAC.
(05:12):
And um, that's really the theplace where I started to think,
I think differently about how weapproach acoustics, where I
really started to ask thequestion of why it felt so
separated from architecture.
Um, and eventually when my timein Troy was done, I I decided to
move to Detroit and start abusiness.
(05:33):
And that's where I still am.
SPEAKER_01 (05:37):
So you got a you got the chance to work on a
once-in-a-lifetime opportunity,and then you took a
once-in-a-lifetime opportunityafter that to stick around and
to immerse yourself in thatwork.
That's that's not an opportunitythat a lot of people get to
have, which is which isincredible.
And I think that's that's athing that keeps this this
industry so on its toes and fastmoving, is that we're never
(06:00):
doing the same thing twice.
Um, but that also, yeah, thatcan be that can definitely be a
tough reality when like thingsare happening so fast.
Like a lot of things are underconstruction, you know, and we
can't be there every singlephase of things like uh like
we'd like to be, certainly.
Um, because it'd be a learningexperience.
(06:20):
But yeah, buildings arecomplicated.
And this is a good reminder thatlike I tell people architecture
is a good, well-roundedprofession that includes a lot
of things.
It is getting more complicateddaily, not less complicated.
And you're a great example of ofhow many, many different tracks
uh of careers are birthed out ofjust that education and a
(06:43):
starting point to round you andget you interested in the arts
on like more of a professionallevel.
SPEAKER_02 (06:48):
Yeah, I I I agree completely.
And and in acoustics, it's ittends to attract people who have
um a mix of backgrounds, somemix of architecture, uh physics,
mathematics, music.
Nobody comes with all of thosethings, engineering.
Um, but most people come withlike two of them, and then
you're and then you're justlearning so much uh on the job.
(07:11):
I mean, I I came into acousticswith uh substantial education in
physics and a little bit ofarchitecture um education, uh,
but everything about acousticsand everything about how
buildings actually go together,I learned on the job uh while I
was at Kierkegaard Associates.
It's it's amazing how much youdon't know about one of those
(07:34):
fields that you really need toknow a lot about.
And honestly, I'm amazed thatbuildings come together at all.
It it is so so many movingparts, you know, and and so many
really critical moving parts.
I mean, acoustics often is notthought about because there are
other more important things likesafety, for example, uh, that
that architects have to thinkabout.
SPEAKER_01 (07:57):
But it comes down to comfort and and comfort of
space.
Like that's that's the un that'sit's the intangible thing about
buildings that you can't explainto people.
And then that's that's hard.
Like it is a science to it, butalso like it is hard to explain
to people why.
Like, if I move this window, nowall of a sudden the building
(08:17):
looks ugly, and nobody can likereally express why, but you're
like, it's wrong, something'swrong.
Uh, I think people feel out ofplace in a lot of areas, and
then it's like, yeah, it'smoisture and humidity content in
the air, it's the acoustics,it's this these things that you
can't necessarily touch and feelas part of a building, but
they're so integral to this.
But to you know, to this wholeconversation, like architects
(08:40):
have been doing this a longtime, and we're gonna be doing
this a long time in the future.
I know that your work has kindof bridged this fine line
between like performance and andaesthetic, like truly art.
I mean, I know like some of thepeople who are who are listening
in this podcast aren't gonna beable to see behind you, but I
know you're sitting in yourstudio, which I've visited, and
(09:00):
you've got a very cool sculptureon the wall behind you that that
does help mitigate some sound alittle bit.
But uh you uh you were theauthor of an essay that I've
I've picked up on on theinternet um about acoustic
ornament.
I'm wondering if this is alltied into like what's your take
in terms of like how acousticsplay a role in architecture and
(09:22):
how they can how they can kindof dance together, I guess.
SPEAKER_02 (09:25):
Yeah, uh big it's a big question.
Um, but uh if I if I try to makeit concise, um I would say that
we currently don't recognize howintegral acoustics already is to
our buildings.
(09:45):
And what what I mean by that isevery time you make a decision
about the size of a room, aboutthe materials of the wall, about
what's going to be in that room,about the shape of the room,
about the structure if it'sexposed, you're actually making
decisions that that affectacoustics.
And I think that one of thebiggest problems of 20th century
(10:07):
acoustics was that we had thisproductization.
I still I use that word a lot.
I don't think it's actually aword, but a productization of
acoustics, where we started tothink about acoustics only as
the products that we buy and addto the space.
And we lost track, I think, ofthe fact that everything else uh
really, really matters.
(10:28):
And there was a time not thatlong ago before modernism when
uh ornamentation was prevalent.
It was three-dimensional, it wasvisually beautiful, and it was
it was um adding complexity tothe shape of our rooms, and it
was therefore helping the soundof our rooms.
Uh, ornamentation really, as faras I'm concerned, there was
(10:50):
never a time when it didn't havea function.
It always had at least anacoustic function, whether it
was intentional or not.
And so in the 20th century, Ithink a lot of that
ornamentation went away with therise of modernism and things got
more and more reverberant, andwe started to add acoustic
panels in to take care of thatreverberation.
And it was this real separation,I think, of acoustics from from
(11:13):
architecture.
And that's really the basis ofthe of the essay is that the
that I'm actually a big believerin the acoustic products.
I work with a lot of greatproduct manufacturers.
And the nice thing is that thoseproducts are engineered to have
a very strong effect on theroom, but it would be a mistake
to think that that's the onlything that has a strong effect
(11:34):
on the room.
And the essay Acoustic Ornamentreally just tries to dig into
that and ask Um, you know, howcan we see acoustics in a more
uh holistic way?
One that includes ornamentationas we, you know, and the
products as we move forward.
SPEAKER_01 (11:51):
See, I told you I was gonna learn things today.
You're I mean, you're you'reputting me into a totally
different thought process herebecause uh I mean, yeah,
acoustics were designed intobuildings that we learn about in
like in Greece.
Like, you know, like I we don'ttalk about them today unless
it's an auditorium.
Then of course you have to, youknow, mind the sound panels and
(12:13):
the silly framed roof and allthis other weird stuff.
But like other than that,nobody's talking about this.
Like, there was no pioneer likethere was of like advent of
lighting or color orlandscaping.
Like, I have a silly question.
Maybe it's not silly to you, butlike who were who who is like a
a household name, a pioneer ofsound in space that we would
(12:36):
recognize?
Like who sets the stage for usthinking about sound in spaces?
SPEAKER_02 (12:42):
Uh I don't know.
That's a good question.
I mean, the one who started allof this um in the late 19th
century in the 1890s was WallaceSaban.
You might have heard of Sabinet.
Yes.
We named him after, yeah.
So uh we named that after Saban.
Um, but the field of acousticsreally didn't get started until
(13:04):
about the middle of the 20thcentury.
And it was a couple of uh firms,Leo Baranek in particular was
one of the pioneers in thatworld.
Um, also an acquisition with thename of Vanaklazen.
And then there's a there's ahandful of them.
Um, you know, but those originalfirms, they advanced and split
(13:24):
off and you know, created newfirms, and we're really only a
few generations deep into this,into this field.
And so um it's relatively new,and I don't think there are a
whole lot of famous people.
There are there are acquisitionswho we all know about, but
they're not household names inthe way that a lot of famous
(13:45):
architects are, for example.
SPEAKER_01 (13:47):
So interesting.
And I have to imagine that a lotof it does come down to building
sciences.
And I guess I I accidentallymade a good point earlier, which
is like the idea of like amaster builder where one
individual could understand likeevery component of a large
structure and like oversee itcoming together.
(14:08):
It's gone.
It's out the window.
Like, I don't know how an ACcompressor works from top to
bottom.
There's somebody who does.
Um, and we all have to worktogether.
It is the buildings are theproduct of a village.
Like, there's hundreds,thousands of people that are
contributing their efforts,whether they're physically there
on site or whether they'remanufacturing parts that are
(14:28):
coming together as componentsthat assemble modern buildings.
That's hard to control sound inthat, as opposed to like, hey,
it's shaped stone and we'regonna set these blocks in this
position.
That you can start to understandsound.
So uh tall order from your lineof work.
And I think this bridges into uma great opportunity to for you
(14:50):
to talk about the work thatyou're doing today, because you
are kind of unique.
I haven't met a whole lot ofstudios that are doing exactly
what you're doing.
Um, I'm gonna say I haven't metany other studios that are doing
what you're doing.
And if I have met them, they'vetalked to you.
So um, so why don't you talk alittle bit about your studio?
Uh, tell us what it is, how wecan find you.
(15:11):
Let's start there.
Um, and then let's move on tolike who are the clients that
you're working with and some ofthe projects you'd like to
highlight for us.
SPEAKER_02 (15:17):
Sure.
Um, yeah, the name of my studiois Umbull.
Uh, it's named after a flowerstructure, U M B E L.
And this is a relatively newrebrand for us.
I think for um a long time, alot of my work was falling under
the name ArcGeometer, which isnot a great name from a business
and marketing perspective.
(15:38):
It's a little bit um toocomplicated, even though it's
made of very simple parts.
Um, but I decided uh recentlythat I needed to get serious
about telling the world aboutwhat we're doing here.
And um, you know, there's anumber of lenses you can look at
it through.
One of them is standardconsulting, which means that we
(15:58):
can be hired to be a part of adesign team and we will help
guide the architects, theinterior designers, the building
owners in their decision makingso that their buildings perform
acoustically.
And we work on not just um roomsthat are critical to sound, like
(16:18):
recording studios and performingarts centers.
We also do a lot of normalbuildings like residential and
office spaces and things,really, really any you can bring
acoustic knowledge to anyarchitectural project and make
it better.
Uh so the core is reallyconsulting.
Um, we have an arm of that thatI think we're the only ones
(16:39):
doing this right now, where weactually also provide consulting
services to manufacturers ofproducts.
Like we were we were integral inthe combining of acoustics and
lighting that uh LiteArt led theway on back in 2017.
And we also do a lot of work fora company called Three Form,
(16:59):
which most people have heard of.
Um, they have an acousticsdivision and a handful of other
ones too.
Faultright is one of our is alsoone of our clients.
They're doing really wellhitting the um the uh you know,
red not just the residentialmarket, but making it easier for
people to buy to buy um acousticproducts.
Uh but then the more interestingstuff to me is like the more
(17:23):
experimental work, thinkingdifferently about sound.
It even really starts to pushinto the art world, I think,
because we do things that are alot more sculptural, a lot more
visual.
We are trying to push theboundaries of materials and how
they're used acoustically andask interesting questions and uh
present interestinginstallations that that we that
(17:47):
we hope help uh move the theconversation forward.
SPEAKER_00 (17:51):
I'm gonna jump in because I know that we touched
briefly on this beautifulsculpture that's behind you.
So that was one of your officeexperiments.
But then you also gave us areally charming story about L
Club when we wanted to hear moreof the history about how that
space came to be and why is thissound so superior to any other
music venue that we've been to?
And it's right here in ourhometown in Detroit.
(18:13):
I was wondering if you couldhighlight a little bit since
we're already on that topic.
SPEAKER_02 (18:17):
Uh on L Club?
SPEAKER_00 (18:18):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (18:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That one was a yeah, that wasabout 10 years ago, I guess, at
the time.
And the architect was Lavu.
Um, that was Kaya Woolett's umfirm.
Uh, I believe it's sincedissolved, but um that might not
be true.
Don't hold me to that.
SPEAKER_01 (18:35):
Yeah, I believe she she moved town.
Um, she still has a firm and isoperating.
Yeah, good did good work whenshe was in Detroit, too.
SPEAKER_02 (18:42):
Excellent work, yeah.
Yeah.
Um, so that one, let me see.
The the the part of it that Ithink is pretty fascinating is
that when you go in, youbasically see all the normal
materials uh that you wouldexpect in an existing building.
There's a lot of concrete block.
I believe there's a plasterlayer on the wall.
You see concrete floors.
(19:04):
If you look up in a lot of partsof the ceiling, you see exposed
wood joists.
You also see these veryprominent uh large melamine foam
wedges.
Um, and those are really seriousacoustic treatment.
They are about two feet deep, Ithink, and they're blocks of
(19:24):
basotect uh melamine foam.
And uh the story goes thatthere's no way that that project
could afford um that kind ofacoustic foam.
But uh it just happened at thetime that I heard of a uh an art
installation, an artist nameHenri Sala, I believe.
(19:45):
He had an installation in NewYork City at the New Museum.
And uh this installation wasonly to last about three months,
and he uh had an incrediblebudget, apparently, because they
covered the walls and I thinkeven some of the floor with
these really deep foam wedges.
And I had heard from a friendthat those wedges were going to
(20:06):
be discarded at the end of thefront, at the end of the
installation, so which seemscrazy by the way, because that's
some expensive foam.
I I think it was hundreds ofthousands of dollars worth of
foam.
Um you know, we added up justgetting tossed.
Yeah, because it's different.
Foam is tough to ship becauseit's I mean, it's lightweight,
(20:26):
but it just takes up a lot ofspace, you know, so you need a
lot of room.
And uh I have a good friend umout from my Troy days named Ben
Chatterby.
And we got to talking, wehatched a plan to um basically
show up with a couple ofsemi-trucks at the new museum
and haul away the felt wedges.
And one of the trucks um wentupstate, and we parted some of
(20:49):
the wedges out to a couple ofprojects up there, and one of
them came to Detroit, and that'sthe the wedges on the ceiling of
the outclub came from thatinstallation, they were diverted
from a landfill basically.
And it was really lucky.
SPEAKER_01 (21:04):
There's the truth of the matter.
Like, I mean, my resume wouldsay like repurposed
installation, but like the truthof the matter was like that that
sound attenuation that blew mymind was picked out of a trash.
unknown (21:18):
It's okay.
SPEAKER_02 (21:19):
And then so when you look at the room, I mean it was
such a beautiful alignmentbecause you need not just
something like that, but likethese wedges, uh, or you that's
what you really want.
But that room is so massive,it's so heavy, um, and it's good
proportions that you, you know,if you could design it from the
ground up, you'd be asking forconcrete floor, you'd be asking
(21:41):
for walls that were that heavy.
And it just happens that on theceiling where there aren't
wedges, that the joists act as avery nice natural diffusion.
And then where the wedges are,it's a very deep absorption.
So you've got you've got thisreally nice, this lovely mix of
things.
And doesn't hurt that theyinvested in a great audio system
(22:03):
there.
I wouldn't be able to even tellyou who the manufacturer was,
but um but you could look it up.
But yeah that helps a lot too.
So yeah that is a it's a lovelylittle club.
I think all of the parts reallyreally came together well.
SPEAKER_01 (22:17):
I think it's just a great project uh to highlight as
we have a brief conversationwith you here today is because
like after meeting you and andseeing your website and then
seeing the work that you'reactually doing in practice, uh
it's not like I I get thecorporate side of things.
Like you design some of theseproducts and you help with the
(22:39):
testing of these products thatlike just get absorbed into the
building universe like drywallor nails do.
But on the other hand likeyou're so artistic and you're
you're scrappy honestly with it.
Like what's a word I'm I'm I'mlike I'm looking for but it's
like the creativity uh like thethe ingenuity that you and your
(23:00):
team are are pulling off it'slike what what do we have you
know it's the it's the trueingenuity of it that that really
excites me.
I mean I I remember I wastapping on some glass on your
floor and I was kind of curiousand you're like oh yeah those
are the those are the windshieldthe car windshields were melting
into position and then pokingholes in so that they you know
(23:20):
control sound and my my brain isjust melting in in your studio.
SPEAKER_02 (23:25):
So like one of the one of the uh maybe it's worth a
couple words about that projectum because that was a that's one
that we're really proud of um itwas done it's called long range
and it was done in collaborationwith Katie Newell and Wes McGee
both at the University ofMichigan but um glass has this
really bad reputation inacoustics for being
(23:46):
reverberation promoting um butwhen you look at acoustic
absorbers like fiberglass youyou see that it's also glass so
fiberglass is glass and plateglass is glass and so that begs
the question what's happeningthere?
Why is one version of it reallyreflective to sound and one
version's absorptive and if yougo deeper into that you start to
(24:11):
think about shape and how shapeand scale and how much those
things matter.
And that's this type of thinkingwhich is also covered in
acoustic ornament led us to thisidea that we're going to take
auto glass and start to shape itto try to get to take it from
this reflective condition to getum diffusion and absorption and
(24:34):
transmission and really try toget all of the acoustic
properties out of it.
And it led to a single quitesculptural installation I think
it's about 30 feet long wherewhen you go from one side you
start out um as a reflectacoustically reflective and it
gets increasingly complicated inits shape as you move down the
length of it it goes intoacoustically diffusive and
(24:55):
acoustically absorptive.
And the whole point of thatproject was just to show that if
you understand how form andmaterial work and how they
relate to acoustics you canreally get into some some really
interesting design territory.
SPEAKER_01 (25:09):
Well it's almost like you took it as a challenge
you're like I'm gonna take thethe worst material possible and
we're gonna make it somethinguseful.
SPEAKER_02 (25:16):
That's what we did.
We went up taking it to theacoustic lab and the only thing
I wanted was to just getabsorption out of it like
significant absorption and toshow that that absorption
increased as the form changed.
And yeah it didn't even matterto me whether it was really high
absorption or anything.
We just wanted to show we coulddo it.
SPEAKER_00 (25:35):
And I think it's a really beautiful form of
relentless curiosity andtrademark that for your team
because I think that that's whatsuits you really well to have
these types of conversationswith architects that are also
curious about how we can be moreinnovative about materials that
just already exist and how do wetest them and figure out how it
impacts the space that we're inlike that type of feedback is so
(25:58):
cool to me.
SPEAKER_02 (25:59):
Yeah yeah I'm glad to hear it I I find that too I
mean the architects are the oneswho get really excited about
this.
Like every architect should knowthat a waffle slab is better
acoustically than a flat slab.
And they're both concrete,right?
So that's in now we're in reallyinteresting territory.
Why is that?
Why is it that something that'sprimarily structural and
(26:20):
somewhat visual actuallyperforms better acoustically
than something that is that isflat.
And that's way more interestingthan you should put you know
fiberglass panel up on yourwallet, which is um which is an
oversimplification but a lot ofconsulting is that we just tell
people how much product andwhere to add it.
But there is a yeah there's amuch more interesting
(26:41):
conversation to be had where umacoustic starts to overlap with
all of the things that thatarchitects care about.
SPEAKER_00 (26:50):
Well Zach, we also had you over Breck's house and
so something I wanted to touchbase on was a lot of clients
keep coming to us with askingabout like what are some easy
methods that are not costprohibitive to implement into my
house.
So residential application tocontrol noise.
And we had you over Breck'shouse because speaking of foam
(27:11):
panels reused at L Club, let'stalk about Breck's house being
literally built out of SIPS foampanels.
And so it's so sound tight thatyou could literally hear a pen
drop from one room all the wayacross the house.
So we really honed in onspecific rooms and specific
applications where minor detailswere going to make a big impact.
SPEAKER_02 (27:30):
Can you touch uh a little bit on some of those that
we talked about yeah absolutelyum I think it's it's it's pretty
interesting that when it comesto um um sound transfer, sound
getting across a wall system,let's say like from the exterior
of a house to the interior um ithas a lot to do with the mass of
(27:52):
the house it has a lot to dowith how well sealed it is so it
really starts to overlap withthermal uh properties too if
your house is very well sealedthermally it is likely also
pretty good acoustically doublepane windows are good for uh for
slowing heat transfer they'realso good for slowing sound and
you and you you as you alreadymentioned uh there's a downside
(28:14):
to that because if your house isreally quiet then the internal
sound the room acoustics or howsound might transfer between
spaces becomes more noticeableso I always have to say that the
very best way to tackle theseproblems is in the design phase.
It's when you're looking at theway the rooms are laid out
relative to each other.
(28:35):
That's always the best time tomake decisions about layout that
could help you acousticallysimple things like making sure
that the media room where youknow somebody might be watching
the movie is not directlyadjacent to your bedroom where
somebody might want quiet.
But assuming you already have ahouse that's built there is
still quite a bit that you cando.
(28:56):
If you don't mind somerenovation and light
construction, um adding mass toyour walls is a really good way
to do it.
An extra layer of gypsum boardhelps a great deal when it comes
to reducing sound transfer.
Sealing things up helps a lot.
We see that a lot where you knowif two rooms are both if there's
(29:17):
an interior wall that separatestwo rooms there's often not
really a need thermally toisolate that to seal it up and
you know use insulation in thecavity.
But if you seal things up soundtransfer uh will get better.
SPEAKER_00 (29:35):
Well the sound transfer will be reduced it will
be better acoustically yeahsomething I did want to ask
about specifically because weget this question so much from
our clients and we typicallyrespond with well sound moves
the way that water moves so themore openings that you have the
more that sound is going topenetrate.
So what about in a loft slashmezzanine type application?
SPEAKER_02 (29:56):
Yeah uh manage expectations is one uh yeah
there's um there's an there's anacoustics researcher and expert
named Michael Erman who oncesaid that if you're sharing air,
you're sharing sound and I lovethat and I say it all the time.
I think it's a great way tothink about this.
(30:16):
It is similar to the way thatwater moves.
So if you imagine filling up aroom with water and you ask
where would that water find itsway through the wall into other
spaces um then that's that's agood indication of the way the
sound will move too.
When you have something like anopen mezzanine um there is
shared air.
(30:36):
So there always will be soundthat transfers between the
mezzanine and the the area belowuh you can however uh reduce it
a bit if you if you map out umhow sound might reflect off of a
surface you could always coverthat surface with something
absorptive you know to it toimprove it uh but these are
(30:57):
these are these are incrementalchanges that um that sometimes
add up to make somebody happybut it would never offer you
know true privacy you youwouldn't want a a mezzanine with
a private office or an officethat was supposed to be private
on top of a living room belowthere's just no way to ever get
true privacy that way unlessyou're willing to block it off
(31:17):
with class or something.
SPEAKER_00 (31:18):
Yeah and you do you mentioned something really
interesting which was likegraphs to implicate the data
afterwards.
And I think that's somethingthat we're increasingly
encouraging our clients to spenda little bit of dollars on.
And a lot of times by the timeyou get to that point people are
like well my project is done I'mgonna call it a day I'm gonna
just enjoy my space but havingtangible data to give you proof
(31:42):
that a system is working, Ithink is so important.
So we did talk about some ofthose tests that you could apply
at Brex House.
Could you kind of touch base onwhat are some of the tests that
you offer and how often are youactually doing them in
residential applications?
SPEAKER_02 (31:57):
Yeah a typical test let's say for sound transfer
would be um you would take aloudspeaker and put it in one
space and you'd put a microphonein the other and you can you can
actually measure how much thatsound is being knocked down or
blocked by the wall thatseparates the two.
And this is this is a this iseasily quantifiable we have
(32:21):
metrics for this sort of thing.
And you can most importantlyyou're you're checking to see if
it's if it's performing as itwas designed because if it's not
it might mean that there'ssomething wrong.
I think a lot of contractorsonce they understand some of the
basics of this like you needinga good seal they are happy to
(32:41):
accommodate you but they oftenaren't aware of that.
So for example if you have apipe that's penetrating across a
wall if that leaves an air gaparound it and that allows air to
flow then sound will transferand the whole wall will be
compromised from a soundtransfer performance
perspective.
So those tests can help youidentify um where you need a
(33:06):
little bit of follow through inthe construction.
And there are also tests forroom acoustics we can test
reverberation time and things aswell we can quantify just about
anything.
We don't get to do a lot ofthose tests it is an extra cost
but we find that it gives a lotof peace of mind to to some
clients who who really just carethat their house is going to
(33:29):
perform the way that it should.
SPEAKER_00 (33:31):
Have you ever had a surprise result from one of
those tests that you were justlike wow I wasn't expecting this
yeah uh it the surprises go bothways.
SPEAKER_02 (33:40):
I mean you frequently get surprises where
you learn that the wall isn'tperforming the way it should be
and then you have to diagnoseit.
You have to track down what'shappening.
It's not always visible rightbecause it could be uh there
could be a piece of trim orsomething over a gap in the wall
and you have to figure out thatthat that's there.
Um it's it doesn't happen veryoften that surprises us in the
(34:03):
other direction but it'shappened once or twice that
we're surprised how well a wallperforms uh you basically you
when you design walls you setit's called STC you've probably
heard of it sound transmissionclass you set STC goals and we
know generally what what walltypes align with what STC
ratings and um and every once ina while you get you you you
(34:26):
always expect them to perform alittle worse in the field than
you designed them.
We leave about a five pointmargin for that but every once
in a while the wall will justoutperform what you think and
don't always know why, but youdefinitely don't question it.
SPEAKER_00 (34:40):
We could go down such a rabbit hole philosophy
and theory at this point becauseit's so like tangential to what
happens in architecture whereyou produce a rendering and it's
like well is it better or worsethan the actual built results
that's a pretty interestingcomment.
One question I did want to wrapup with going back to your essay
on acoustical ornamentation Iwas just a little bit curious
(35:01):
because you know the saying thedevil is in the details it's
actually coined by a Starkitect.
And so I was curious uh Mies VanDerot is the one that said that
he actually said God is in thedetails.
So that's what I wanted to askyou.
What is your opinion?
Is the devil or God in thedetails?
SPEAKER_02 (35:20):
Oh that's a I have no idea I would I I'd probably
go you know what I I would needto understand the implications
of both of those.
I know that's a boring answer.
Um I know that the details domatter a great deal.
SPEAKER_00 (35:37):
And I know but I think that well go ahead yeah
well what I was getting at is Ithink you said something really
important earlier where resultsaren't always visual
acoustically so some peoplemight say well ornamentation is
just an added fee.
I don't have money for this butsometimes that is the factor
that's producing better sound.
SPEAKER_02 (35:56):
Yeah that's yes that's right and I do think that
Mies was wrong in his pursuit ofum reducing ornamentation and
stripping everything back inthat way.
And I think that in part it'sbecause they they we didn't I
think look hard enough into whatthat ornamentation was doing.
And there's also a culturalangle here that's that's
(36:18):
incredibly important.
I mean to claim thatornamentation has no function
that's a that's just a reallybig claim and I think it's uh I
think it's wrong.
You know but but what'sinteresting I guess for me in my
daily work is that there is thisacoustic underpinning to so much
of that ornamentation.
(36:40):
Even if somebody did argue thatyeah that uh the cultural
reasons to keep ornamentationweren't valid which I don't
agree with but even if they didyou've also got this this
building performance reason forit.
And I think that it onceacoustics is in the mix you open
up a lot of other possibilities.
(37:00):
I mean the the wall of chairsbehind me that was really just
an exercise in taking existingfurniture and asking how how
could we make this furnituremore impactful acoustically and
do something interesting withit.
And in that way it is ornamentalright in that it it has a look
and it's contributing visuallyto the room.
(37:21):
It's also contributing umacoustically to the room and we
use it for seating we pull themdown when we need them.
So they see you did that for uswhen we toured that's right yeah
you just pull them down asneeded and so it's this really
um and I'm glad that people likethe way it looks because who
knows right before you know onceyou do it but uh you never know
whether you're gonna like theend of it.
(37:41):
So I I think I sidestepped yourquestion a little but I um you
know no I think you actuallyanswered it answered it.
SPEAKER_00 (37:47):
I think there's so much we can unpack here it
wasn't like a light questionit's actually deeply loaded with
a ton of response.
So I appreciate you answeringthat on the fly.
Well I do want to start to wrapus up so I definitely want to
make sure that people can reachout to you if they're interested
can you just name drop yourwebsite socials and some other
resources yeah umble.design umbe l dot design is the is the
(38:13):
best way to find us um I do havesome print copies of acoustic
ornament left if anybody wantsany we had a printing error that
like turned out to be a uh afortuitous thing because we we
ended up with uh a lot morecopies than we expected and so
um those are available ifanybody wants one just get in
(38:34):
get in touch with amazing wellthank you so much for joining us
today and I think we have somuch more that we can continue
to collaborate on.
So I appreciate your time thankyou Joe see you next time here
on innovative real estate withFreeSquared
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