August 31, 2026 • 74 mins
What happens when a writer who cracked the code at four grows up to lead a nation’s authors in a rapidly changing book economy? We sit down with Mikaela, president of the Society of Swedish Authors in Finland, to explore how love of language becomes both a creative engine and a shield for cultural diversity. From her early sense of writing as a private room for thinking to the public work of advocacy, she opens up about balancing solitude with leadership and why literature functions as democratic infrastructure, not a luxury.
We travel through the pressures squeezing small-language communities: declining deep reading, a tilt toward entertainment-first publishing, and the quiet erosion of literary biodiversity. Mikaela lays out a sharper toolkit for authors—time-limited contracts, firm retention of rights, and royalty transparency that turns opaque audiobook streaming into accountable income. She explains how “seconds listened” distorts value and why publishers must partner with writers to demand clear reporting from platforms.
The conversation tackles AI head-on. Who decides if a text becomes training data, and who gets paid when machines learn from human craft? Mikaela’s north star is straightforward: transparency, consent, and fair remuneration across borders, with practical licensing paths that scale from Finland to Europe and beyond. We round out with the fuel that keeps risk-taking alive—grants, mentorship, translation, and cross-border alliances that link Finland-Swedish literature to Nordic and European readers—plus one structural move that could lift the whole ecosystem: zero VAT on books, from print to audio.
If you care about author rights, minority languages, and the future of reading, this conversation offers clarity and next steps. Subscribe, share with a friend who loves books, and leave a review to help more listeners find the show. What change would you make first: fairer contracts, AI licensing, or zero book VAT?
Check out "Protection for the Inventive Mind" – available now on Amazon in print and Kindle formats.
The views and opinions expressed (by the host and guest(s)) in this podcast are strictly their own and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the entities with which they may be affiliated. This podcast should in no way be construed as promoting or criticizing any particular government policy, institutional position, private interest or commercial entity. Any content provided is for informational and educational purposes only.
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Mikaela Taivassalo (00:00):
Uh it's not measurable uh how we pay off.
It's like uh asking yourself uhwhat what is the purpose of
love?
Why do we love each other?
Is there a purpose?
Leticia Caminero (00:12):
Do we get uh what what is that doing for for
uh uh for our economical uh Isay it's doing everything,
everything is uh everything isdone by love or for love or
because of love, but despite oflove.
Mikaela Taivassalo (00:29):
So exactly.
So uh but but now uh I I thinkuh we see the same tendencies in
uh I think it's uh like globaltendencies.
We'll be discussing this in uhinternational contexts as well,
uh, that uh genre literature isunlike more uh uh literature
(00:51):
that is written written to beentertainment more than uh art.
Announcer (00:58):
You are listening to Intangibilia, the podcast of
Intangible Law, playing talkabout intellectual property.
Please welcome your host,Leticia Caminero.
Leticia Caminero (01:10):
Hello, my name is Leticia Caminero, your host,
and welcome to this new season,season eight.
On this season, we have aspecial treat.
We're gonna be interviewingdifferent members from the
International Authors Forum.
We're gonna be talking aboutpublishing, art, literature,
(01:31):
translation, and much more.
Stick around for livelydiscussions and many, many
interesting conversations.
Mikaela Taivassalo (01:45):
Hello, I'm uh Mikaela, Hannah Lamikaela
Taiwassal.
Uh but it's easier to shortendown that to Mikaela.
And uh I am the president rightnow uh for the Society of
Swedish Authors in Finland.
Uh I'm an author myself, uh uhwriting maybe maybe in every
(02:06):
genre there is, or at least I'minterested in everything.
I'm uh uh mainly, mainly,mainly prose, mainly novels, but
uh I've been writing everythingfrom children's literature to
to uh drama.
So uh I'm basically curious uhof all that is literature, and
(02:26):
literature has been like uh fromfrom the start from from
childhood, it's been the mostimportant part of uh my life.
Uh my most important friendmaybe uh has been literature
from a child and onwards, andnow I'm working both uh in the
(02:48):
field of uh author's rights anduh creatively as a writer
myself.
Leticia Caminero (02:56):
So when did you first uh thought of um
becoming an author and andworking in this beautiful field?
Mikaela Taivassalo (03:07):
I think I have kind of a classic author's
background, uh cracking the codeuh as a child by myself, or uh
of course it's not by yourself,but you uh like being curious of
books, being curious of uhwords and uh how how you do
this, how you do this coding uhwhen you see the text and you uh
(03:31):
you kind of learn that peopleuh get sentences out from these
uh scribbled uh words.
Uh and uh as I think I wasabout four years old when I
cracked the code, so to say.
And from that uh moment on, uhit was for me, it was like a
(03:51):
revelation of some kind.
I suddenly got uh got a secretroom of my own uh where I could
decide things.
As a child, it was reallyimportant to me that I could
decide.
This was my kingdom, I could doanything.
And when I uh learned to towrite, it was like uh having
(04:14):
some uh some special power thatuh gave me, gave me the words,
really, gave me a voice.
It was uh really of suchimportance to me that uh it uh
kind of is that that's it's nota moment, of course, it's a
process of learning, but thatthat uh all the reading was uh
(04:35):
so important to me that it itreally has been one of the most
life-changing in a in an earlyage, but one of the most
life-changing uh greatest uhchanges in my in my world.
And it was like uh I don'tknow, I've been a reader since,
and I uh from the reading Ibecame a writer, and that's
(04:58):
quite a classic story of beingan author.
Leticia Caminero (05:02):
Yeah, you first um uh fall in love with uh
storytelling, fall in love withthe building of uh universes
inside um uh uh black and white,and then it just comes natural.
So that links to our nextquestion on your um dual role.
(05:22):
So you lead the author societywhile you continue your career
as a writing, um as an author.
What personal system have youbuilt to keep advocacy,
administration, and art fromdraining one another?
Because they're both quite, Iimagine, consuming roles.
(05:43):
And where do they productivelycollide?
Mikaela Taivassalo (05:49):
Uh that's really an important uh question
that I've been uh thinking a lotabout, of course.
Uh because um, and it wasreally uh a nice question to get
because uh it kind of I've beenthinking of it of it, but in
like a different way, that uhthat clash between those two
(06:09):
roles uh could be uh creative aswell as well.
That's not really uh the way ofuh that's not my thinking of
it.
It's been like two dividedwords, but really they're like
uh giving things to each otheras well.
Uh for me, it's been reallyclear uh that uh writing has
(06:30):
been kind of my uh escape fromthe rule from uh from that kind
of uh doing.
I like the doing.
I'm really, really happy aboutthe possibility to do things for
the most important thing in theworld, that is literature, of
course.
Uh and working, working for uhthis to me very, very important
(06:54):
uh and uh really like uh themost important uh thing that is
to to work for uh writers'authors' rights and uh and uh
literature uh as a whole.
So uh but it's it's been it'sof course it's been very uh it's
(07:17):
consuming time and strength, ofcourse.
It's it's it's really it'sreally tough.
And these times, thesepolitical times and things like
uh things are changing uh rightnow.
We have like uh a new digitalworld that is uh emerging.
We have uh a lot of uh ofproblems and new things that are
(07:40):
not problems, that could beadvantages, but things are
moving so fast now, and uh wehave uh a political time that is
really um uh it's uh it's astruggle to be uh to be in the
world uh in this time, but uh ithas been really uh of course
(08:01):
complicated in many ways to bein this role in this time, but
uh also rewarding because youhave the sense that you uh can
do something for the things thatare important to you.
Um and for, I mean, uh I thinkthat writing is also an act of
democracy and uh human rights,not only author's rights, it's
(08:23):
human rights as well.
Um so so uh for me that hasbeen uh both uh consuming and
empowering in many ways, but Ihave had my uh comfort zone, my
escape route, and that has beenwriting.
And uh it's always been all thetime.
(08:44):
It's not been like a thing thatI have to keep on doing because
I'm a writer.
It's been quite the contrary,it's been it's been my comfort
zone, it's been uh my escapefrom uh well maybe from reality,
but not not really, becauseit's it's like um writing is
(09:04):
creating uh a kind of otherreality as well.
It's not just escaping, it's uhit's a lot more.
It's uh it's thinking, it's umit's creating a room uh to think
in.
Uh there's so many ways that uhwriting is uh empowering, uh
(09:25):
both for the person that writes,and also I'm I'm like I said,
I'm a reader from the start.
I'm a reader, so uh readingliterature is also a way of
thinking for me.
So um this uh it was such anice question to get because my
um my first thought was notthis, but my last thought, uh or
(09:47):
the chain of thoughts led tothis.
That uh really um that this umas an author, I'm uh I have my
solitude.
Um I'm I'm alone with youyou're uh as a writer, you're uh
you're craving things in yourhead by yourself.
(10:08):
Uh and uh for some people uhthat is like the dream situation
to be in.
And for some people are moresocial.
Uh and I think I I have most ofuh human beings are social
beings, so we crave to haveother people around.
And for me, uh this uh beingbeing president uh for the
(10:32):
Society of Swedish Authors inFinland has been, of course,
really like it's it's really asocial context.
You meet people, you havemeetings, you discuss things,
you argue, you uh youcommunicate, uh everything uh is
about uh being around others,you network everything.
(10:54):
Uh and it's been really uhlovely.
I I and I met a lot of newpeople, a lot of people I've met
before, of course, but uh a lotof uh new people from different
backgrounds, but we all havehad this in common that uh we're
uh writing or we're in theliterary field in some way, and
(11:14):
that has been for me really uhreally a good thing, but it also
it consumes your time, it uh itit of course your energy as
well.
Uh so for me it's been a like agive and take relationship,
really.
Uh when I've kind of uh whenit's been at its best, I got the
(11:38):
best from it all.
Leticia Caminero (11:40):
So you can escape to each world, then you
can escape to your solitude andwrite, or you can escape uh from
your solitude and and mingleand be social.
Mikaela Taivassalo (11:51):
Yes, and when you when you uh when you
meet people, when you meet othercultures, well uh this has
brought me to uh other cultures,uh this this role as a
president, of course, uh haveand this uh international
context, uh which have beenreally important to me, has uh
brought that to me.
Uh colliding with othercultures and colliding.
(12:13):
I think colliding is a goodword, it's a positive word.
I like colliding.
For me, uh literature readingis colliding, you're colliding
with somebody's uh thoughts orsomebody's perspective, just uh
to uh get to have anotherperspective is is the most
important thing.
And uh and that's too is uh hasbeen inspiring for me.
(12:36):
Uh and I didn't thought uhthink about that before I got
this question from you, but it'sbeen inspiring for me because
uh every new impulse is in a waysomething that makes you it
maybe it doesn't give you thetheme, but it puts your thoughts
uh in another route, it changesa route perspective, and that's
(12:58):
the things you need as awriter, really.
It pushes you out of your ofyour normalcy.
Yeah, exactly.
It pushes us you out from thecomfort zone, yeah, definitely.
Leticia Caminero (13:11):
Which we need uh many times, we need a push in
order to act.
So um speaking of more aboutthe role minority language in a
majority ambition.
So you are um in a smalllanguage community, a scale is
limited, but intensely can behigh.
(13:33):
Um, what metrics beyond salesshould define success for Phil
and Swedish authors?
And how is the society pushingthose metrics into publisher and
uh funder conversations?
Mikaela Taivassalo (13:48):
Yeah, well, that's really like a major
concern.
It's always been, of course,for a minority, uh, but now when
uh when times are harder, uhthen of course uh we we live in
times where uh where selling isuh is the most important and
money uh talks.
(14:09):
Uh of course you could uh thosetimes are uh coming and going
more or less uh all the timestaying.
But uh well it the times arehard, and I think that uh we
tend to get more uh literaturethat uh is kind of uh genre
literature that is uh uh thepublishing houses wants to to
(14:35):
sell.
They want, of course, becausethe times are uh hard.
So it's a struggle, economicalstruggle for all of us uh in
most countries.
Uh and literature, of course,uh is affected by this really uh
whole the cultural field andand and uh the artistic field
(14:56):
are of course the first uhfields that uh or every field,
but uh but we we're not like themoney makers, we're not a
factory, so so art is not uhpaying off in the same.
Uh it's not measurable uh howwe pay off.
It's like uh asking yourself uhwhat what is the purpose of
(15:19):
love?
Why do we love each other?
Is there a purpose?
Leticia Caminero (15:23):
Do we get uh what what is that doing for for
uh uh for our economical uh Isay it's doing everything,
everything is uh everything isdone by love or for love or
because of love, but despite oflove.
Mikaela Taivassalo (15:40):
So exactly.
So uh but but now uh I I thinkuh we see the same tendencies in
uh I think it's uh like globaltendencies.
We'll be discussing this in uhinternational context as well,
uh, that uh genre literaturesand like more uh uh literature
(16:02):
that is written written to beentertainment more than uh art
uh is getting uh more and moreof the space.
And uh it's not only I'm notonly talking about uh
measurement uh as uh uh sellingand buying books, but uh
measurement in in reading.
(16:23):
We have like most countries arefacing um problems when it
comes to reading, or manycountry uh countries are uh
facing problems uh uh regardingreading ability uh within the
population.
Uh not all.
There are uh those who uh arestill reading countries, but
(16:46):
Finland used to be like areader's country, a reading
country, and now uh now uh itseems like uh seems like we're
moving, uh sloping off from thattrack.
We're los losing losing it in abit, and that affects of course
literature uh directly.
(17:07):
So uh and uh in a way that uhthat uh the literature that
isn't uh really the best sellerliterature uh literature doesn't
really get uh as much space anddoesn't get as much readers and
uh doesn't get and this is themost important thing, I think,
(17:28):
as much interest and uh and andspace in the public eye as uh,
for example, genre literature uhand popular literature.
So uh that's and I don't meanthat genre literature literature
and popular literature, that'snot a problem in itself because
we need like uh we need a broadliterature, we need we need
(17:51):
everything, we need uh we needuh reading for for everybody and
for every um every taste aswell.
Uh but the problem is that uhthe diversity is uh shrinking.
It's it's like a this hugeecological, literature, uh
ecological uh problem that uhwhen uh when we when we tend to
(18:15):
to to lose some uh some somesmall but really important piece
of literature, then uh itaffects all the literature and
language as well.
So uh that's I think I'm uh I'mnow uh probably answering a lot
of questions at the same time.
Leticia Caminero (18:33):
Yeah, I know, but it's it's it's uh it's part
of the conversation.
So um there's the the societyshift.
So people are less likely toread uh uh for longer periods of
time, they have also less timeto read.
Um the taste changes accordingto generations, according to
what is happening in the worldas well.
(18:54):
Sometimes people like toconsume a lot of uh specific
types, and then all of a suddenthe the taste of the popular
taste shifts to another toanother gender.
So we saw that with theromanticy, there was this huge
romantic boom um that has beenhappening for the last couple of
years, and now their predictionis it's gonna change to
(19:15):
something else.
Before that, we had um the umthe older this werewolf uh
vampires kind of um boom aswell.
Uh but you can argue that thoseall of those existed for a long
time, but uh in the rate thatthey were consumed, maybe not
the same.
And we had also the issue oftechnology.
(19:37):
Technology is making us lesslikely to spend more time doing
um the reading or concentrating,which is something that our
minds are changing.
And this is concerning, um,especially when you think about
the capacity that you used tohave before you had a cell
phone, because I can rememberthe time before cell phones.
(19:58):
Um uh and I knew all phonenumbers of everyone.
And right now, I don't evenknow my own phone number.
So to see the change, somethingso minimal like that.
Now I don't I cannot evenremember.
I know that starts with oneletter and that's it, one
number, and that's it.
I don't remember the rest.
Mikaela Taivassalo (20:17):
Yeah, exactly.
And in uh in Finland, and Ithink that goes for all the
Nordic countries as least.
Uh with and this is really,really like a concern, even if
it's in one way maybe good, isthat uh uh uh the younger
population, the younger readers,uh they tend to read in
English.
(20:37):
Uh they do speak English, ofcourse, it's uh our lingua
franca, and everybody's on thenet, so everybody's there uh in
uh are international or have uhthe uh the possibility to be uh
international, which is good.
And uh and then you have youhave like that access to uh to a
(20:59):
language that uh everybodyspeaks.
I mean, we're speaking Englishright now, even if not a first
language.
Uh and and but we'recommunicating, and that's good.
Communicating is good, but itand it's good in those senses,
but it's not good, for example,uh for a minority language or
(21:22):
small language.
We have to remember thatFinnish is not a big language,
uh it's it's really a smalllanguage uh too, even if it's
not it's a majority for us,we're a minority, we speak
Swedish speaking, but uh Finnishis also uh a really small
language in the world.
And that's really it's uh it'snot good for literature if
(21:48):
people do not uh read or know,deeply know, have deep uh
insight in their own mothertongue, in their own language.
That's really a
Leticia Caminero (22:00):
uh huge concern right now even if one
part of me think it's great andit's a lot of advantages uh that
we able to communicate uh on adeeper level level uh
international that's so true andlanguages have um there we have
diverse languages because wehave diverse cultures and
(22:22):
diverse views of of the worldand there's things that i can
say in spanish that i i never beable to really translate into
another language because they'rerooted in in the tradition i'm
i'm from the dominican republicso i'm rooted in in my country
and in my culture and i wheneveri try to translate even a um a
(22:43):
small phrase i always have tohave a long explanation of what
it means and all the backgroundand so forth and i imagine that
happens to all the languages aswell there's there's so much um
um history even behind a smallphrase that can convey a lot of
meaning for someone from thatlanguage so it's it's it's
important to conserve languagesbecause that means you're also
(23:06):
taking care of culture and andand views of different views of
the world yeah and if you don'thave the deep knowledge of your
own language uh let's say forexample uh if writers do not
have that deep level ofknowledge uh of uh uh the
language which is uh the thingyou're uh working uh really hard
(23:28):
with that that is your toolthat is your most important tool
then of course uh how how canyou enrich the language how can
you it's not uh I think that uhyou need to to uh take care of
it and as you said conserve itas well uh and take care of the
culture and uh your heritage andeverything but uh I mean uh
(23:50):
writing writers and literaturedo uh make the language evolve
as well you make the uh languagealive so uh how can we do that
if we do not know and have thoseskills as uh as writers and
that's a major concern for forme yeah I I completely
(24:12):
understand and it's somethingthat we will we will talk about
it more and more the moretechnology advances the more
intercommunicated we are um themore also we have to um remember
the importance of locallanguages of national languages
and and and all that becausethat also is part of the
identity of the nation of of ofthe of the community that we
(24:34):
belong to so moving to a moreformal part um being an author
uh in this new age in this bravenew world um talking
specifically about uh contractsand authors' rights what are the
three most common clauses youurge authors to negotiate in
(24:58):
today and which new practices doyou want Finland Swedish
publishers to adopt to rebalanceinformation's asymmetries yes
(25:39):
oh uh that's um that's that'sreally uh really really a tough
question to to to choose uhthings but I uh what I've seen
uh things that uh things that uhwe do need to remind people of
all the time is uh is time uh ifyou if you're making a contract
(26:04):
you uh you have to have a settime for it uh you can't give
your rights forever and that uhyou have to have like a uh a set
time for uh when you have to uhrenew uh the contract or when
you have uh when it's not uh notuh um or when when it ends you
(26:32):
have to have like a set time sotime is one and then uh that
brings uh the uh the other thingthat uh it's really like
ridiculous that you have to keepan eye on this but you really
do have to keep an eye on youruh on your author's rights uh
(26:53):
you can't uh ever give your uhrights away and uh and if if you
don't if you don't spell thatout in a contract uh you you uh
that that's there has to bereally clear that the rights
remains within the author.
And and I I've seen no not whenit comes to to the older
(27:18):
publishing houses but uh I meanthe feel is changing and there's
new newcomers and and there'salso like uh high hybrid uh
publishing and uh and andself-publishing and semi semi
self publishing publishers aswell so we see we see that and
(27:39):
and I mean uh people uh peopledespair really a desperate need
to be published and are willingto to like uh write a contract
and and and accept uh the termsand uh and yeah that's that's
(28:00):
really one of my concerns thatI've seen a lot of contracts
where uh where where uh the uhthe rights uh or where you're
trying to keep the rights uh allthe rights the entire rights or
too many uh rights uh for forthe publisher and uh for example
(28:23):
uh so that's that's a majorproblem the uh the um author's
rights is always uh the author'sright your the rights holder uh
and that comes to the third onei was thinking about what what
what we point out the third oneis uh really uh your uh
(28:45):
following uh questions aquestion now in this time uh and
this is like a Nordic uhproblem uh the uh audiobook
problem uh that we have here uhit's not just a problem like
everything everything is notjust a problem it uh it it yeah
i mean uh literature uh gets uhits readers through uh
(29:10):
audiobooks as well but we havethe uh these uh streaming
streaming services that are kindof uh uh problematic for uh for
the authors uh we're notselling books the books are
there uh supplied uh by theplatforms uh and uh and you
(29:33):
don't you don't buy a book youuh you buy access to the books
and then uh then you um maybemaybe start uh listening to to a
book and uh there's some digitsor seconds and then you stop so
this uh measurement when itcomes to contracts that this
have been really like there's alot of uh of problems in our
(29:57):
field uh when it comes to uhthis uh streaming of uh of uh
audiobooks but uh but thetransparency problem here is
really huge uh i mean uh youhave to you you have to uh in
the reality uh in the royaltyreports reality reports that's a
(30:18):
fraud slip in the uh royaltyreports uh you you have to
report uh how many books youhave been uh selling and the
publisher has to uh report uhthe amount of books but that
that's uh difficult uh it'sreally difficult and I can
understand that it's difficultuh to uh report digits uh or
(30:42):
seconds of a book uh but uh butreally really uh the author the
rights holder has uh to be ableto know how the book is used and
by whom uh I mean thosedifferent platforms and they uh
have different uh uh differentuh systems and of course uh the
(31:07):
publisher wants to to reportthis in an in an easy way that's
understandable but still uhwe're uh I mean it's hard to act
on things if you don't know uhif you don't know how how your
book is used or what you getfrom uh from who uh in regards
of uh royalty and royaltyreports so that transparency is
(31:32):
uh is kind of a uh a really uhacute problem uh here in in in
finland and also also uh I guessin in the rest of the Nordic
countries with the same uh sameproblems and the same platforms
because they're reallynon-transparent uh and of course
(31:53):
we're hoping for for uh thepublishing host houses as well
to to to be to be uh ourpartners in in this and uh I
mean because we're uh we'requite small and uh and they have
the contact with the uhplatforms so so we really need
to to get them to be loyal to usuh to us not to to uh not to be
(32:19):
be just uh uh I guess they'renot loyal loyalty is not the
word when it comes to businessbut to have this uh kind of
business agreement with uh theplatforms uh not not to share uh
that kind of information thatis like uh business information
(32:39):
and and and uh classified but itit shan't be classified uh
because the right holder the pthe the one that has written the
book is of course the one thatuh has to to to to get all this
information should get all thisinformation so uh that that's
(33:00):
that's a complicated thing thatwe're now uh keeping our eyes on
and uh and and trying to workout but I mean uh I'm uh I'm the
president of Swedish authors inFinland and that makes me uh
president of um uh a quite smallminority um even if it's big to
be a minority uh organizationso uh I mean even if we would
(33:25):
boycott uh boycott uh the uhaudio platforms it it it I mean
it wouldn't it wouldn't work wehave to to to uh unite and do
things together and do thingstogether with the publishers as
well yeah and and you can alwaysum find ways to balance the
(33:46):
interests and and find ways tohave um to find a middle ground
between the two interestsbecause um as you explain um you
need each other so the platformneeds the the the writers and
the writers need the platform inorder to to um um put their
their works out there so there'salways um finding the balance
(34:10):
is always the hard part uh umbetween uh between the parties
but I think it's something thatit can be built on together um
little by little and newtechnologies can always help
especially with technicallimitations um now we're seeing
a lot of um breakthroughs inthat regard of tracking or
(34:31):
understanding um consumerbehavior and maybe that can also
be put into work for forunderstanding how the um the
works are being consumed and andwhere to find a a fair um
redistribution in that sense soum speaking of new technologies
(34:51):
we have the elephant in the roomAI how is the society advising
members on text and data setlicensing for AI training
audiobook and syntactic voicerights and secondary digital
uses um what would a faillicensing deal would look like
(35:13):
in the Finland Swedish uhcontext reality well I guess uh
this is like such aninternational question as uh my
only answer is that we we're uhwe we need to have exactly the
same uh kind of uh contracts andpossibilities as uh as we're
(35:38):
all uh in you in Europe and uhand on an international uh level
uh and in in Finland nationallyof course uh working uh towards
and excuse me and uh well alsothere uh if I link this to to to
(36:01):
uh what I said what I saidbefore uh when it comes to the
contract uh we need uh those uhthree uh important things
transparency consent and fairremuneration uh of course and I
I think that uh the firstproblem now is to to kind of
(36:23):
make clear that uh that alsohere uh it's the rights holder
who who has uh should have uhthat's not the case but should
have the right to decide how uhuh texts are used uh also that
(36:44):
also uh of course uh regardinguh training material as a
training material for for uh foruh IA it's not the case we we
know that uh that there are uhit's it's not easy to to control
how texts are used digitallyand there's uh different ways of
(37:08):
of uh thinking uh when it comesto to to what is fair and what
is uh uh within uh the law butuh but yeah that this is a
really a huge uh problem so myfirst impulse when I hear this
question is always even though II I know fair fairly much about
(37:31):
this problem then I just wantto scream help intangiblia the
podcast of intangible law plaintalk about intellectual property
or at least if not if not uhhelp I I I I need I I wish my uh
(37:56):
my uh or our society's lawyerwas here because she specialized
in it and even if shespecialized in it in it and
really really hardcore readseverything uh what's happening
in field and it happens and ithappens so fast then even though
uh it's hard to really put yourfinger on what's needed but
(38:19):
we're we're we're coming we'recoming somewhere uh and I I
think it's good that there areuh ways to ways to uh to try to
uh try try to um prevent uhprevent uh things uh or prevent
(38:42):
that uh that your uh material isuh is uh used or at least get
some uh remuneration for uh forfor it and that's uh and for me
for me i'm I'm more concerned ofuh of uh not not because and
that concern is really like uhit's it's all almost a waste to
(39:08):
to be concerned because it'sit's you can't control it but I
would I would if I could have awish I would like to control uh
what is done to my text andwhere it's uh used and who is
using it uh and and really wedon't want uh uh those uh uh big
companies to to profit on ourworks because uh that's unfair
(39:33):
so of course there's a uh hopethat there would be kind some
kind of uh remuneration for uhuse of of the works as well and
that has to be done on an umboth national and international
uh level because uh I mean as weknow uh tech is uh is not
(39:57):
national uh uh the digital worldis uh world is international so
we have to work on two levelsfor this.
Yes of course this is the um aswe're speaking about the
balance so all of oh it's allabout the balance i mean
technology is always going toadvance um it's always going to
(40:17):
move forward uh but we have tomake sure that it doesn't leave
people behind especially if it'sif it's being built on the work
of those people and connectingwith the next question about um
collaboration internationalcollaboration um what
cross-border alliances are mosteffective for a small language
(40:41):
community like yourself andwhere do you see on-tap uh
leverage for Finland Swedishauthors in Europe and beyond oh
uh that's too really a um coreof uh my uh of everything I I uh
(41:02):
uh that is of importance for meand uh the things I've been
working for uh or trying to uhI've been trying to work for for
for uh for uh for having like abigger context for this uh
quite small literature that wehave I mean for it's that too is
(41:26):
quite common for human beingswe want to have our context we
want to what want to have acommunication but I think that
it's uh it's it's really aquestion of life and death when
it uh concerning uh minority uhthe smaller the group uh the
bigger the importance of uhhaving uh bigger content content
(41:50):
context a bigger uh world Imean uh and for writers as well
not only for uh the literature Ithink for writers as well it's
uh it's been it's beentraditionally uh the Finland
Swedish literature has beenquite uh quite interested in
(42:10):
what's going on in the world andit's been be been like a uh uh
kind of um cultural blending uhtaking impulses from uh both uh
both the uh both central Europeand uh and the Nordic countries
of course and from Russia aswell so it's been like a a
(42:31):
blender a mix uh in a good wayin a really good way not not
like um which is the otherproblem uh uh a minority uh
language literature um mightalso be turn inwards and and
like uh just just uh be in thatsecure own space but but but I
(42:56):
uh I I think it's uh I thinkit's a uh really a question of
importance that you build uhbuild some kind of uh of larger
context for for literature andthat you have your partnerships
and your uh uh companions andand and your bigger context so
(43:18):
for for for me and for uh ourassociation in a whole it's uh
the question is yes every everycontext every every partnership
every every uh context we havehave been of uh a huge
importance for for us as a smallorganization and as a small
(43:41):
literature we have like a reallystrong connection of course to
the Finnish literature as wellwe're part of the Finnish
literature but we're also uh uhnot a part of the Finnish
Finnish literature which I I inin my opinion that's really a
good place to be in because youuh the uh perspectives the
(44:02):
different perspective that'sgood for literature it's it's
good for writers I think that uhgives a lot to to uh to uh the
literature uh written as welland that's partly a uh an answer
to your second question what wecan uh what we have to to to
bring out to the world what youcould uh give what's uh our
(44:25):
strength that is uh that it'sit's
Mikaela Taivassalo (44:29):
really it's really a uh a a living and vivid
literature even if it's smallthere's a lot of genres
represented and it's a lot of uhit's that's both a really uh a
really strong tradition of uh ofuh children's uh literature and
(44:50):
uh really a strong poetical uhtradition and so on so there's a
lot of uh of things to givegive uh well in in the same the
strength is uh uh one of ourstrengths are probably that
we're not uh we're not we don'thave a market in a good sense as
(45:13):
well so we don't have to adjustto or we shouldn't have to
adjust to mark market in thatway uh that's a problem as well
but uh it's something good aswell so for me it's uh as a
president it it's been really umof great importance to to try
to to to build uh and and keepup the strong connections uh to
(45:36):
for example sweden to of coursebecause we're part of the
Swedish literature as well uheven if we're not in Sweden so
we're strangers uh strangeliterature as well for for for
the Swedes in one way uh butwe're part of that literature as
well and the part of Finnishliterature of course and uh uh
we strongly have a Nordicconnection as well and that uh I
(46:00):
think that uh platform has beenreally of importance both when
it comes to um for authors ingeneral to to to that we're able
to read uh the literaturewritten in in the Nordic
countries uh and able to toconnect with uh personally with
(46:22):
other authors in the Nordiccountries but also that we have
like similar uh poly politicaland cultural political uh
interests and uh problems aswell so uh so that's really uh
uh uh been of importance and ofcourse for me uh the European
context but also for me it'sreally grew stronger and
(46:45):
stronger the uh need to havethis uh international context as
well because uh and it's it'snaturally and now we we spoke
about our uh our uh digital eraso we're uh we're in the same uh
digital uh geography uh so uhwe act with with the within the
(47:10):
same uh field and with the sameuh handling the same problems
and uh working for uh goodsolutions that could be like
solution beyond country bordersso uh for me for me that's been
really like uh if I've startedout this uh in the beginning I
(47:32):
was speaking about uh that uhthe times are harsh now and
harsh on culture and and andarts so what I've both
personally and I think for theassociation as well it's been
really uh really something uhprofoundly positive that we have
(47:53):
this um on an internationallevel as well have this uh
context and uh and conversationsand uh we share information uh
we uh we share uh uh what'shappening right now because you
(48:15):
know if one thing is happeninguh there then you know that
you're soon going to have thesame kind of uh problems or uh
advantages in your own countryso um uh that's that's been of
of great import importance forme both personally and as a
writer and uh for theassociation as well.
Leticia Caminero (48:40):
So there's uh power in numbers um and the
collaboration is very vital forassociations and and for for
pushing also changes but youkeep yourself as well different
because you are you keep your uhyour um uniqueness intact while
you you also keep the door openfor for talks collaboration and
(49:04):
working together so it's it's ait's a beautiful way of of of
doing the work of making sureyou stay true to to who you are
as an association yeah yeah Ithink I tend to see things like
I see literature I tend to seethis uh this work as well and uh
probably uh the way of livingis is is the uh positive uh
(49:34):
colliding but in a positive wayyeah totally agree changing
perspectives that's i i meanthat's hard that's hard even if
you aim uh aim for it and evenif you try hardly not to uh
think in the same ways you tendto to to do your thinking in
your same uh roots you uh it'sso hard it's a known road yeah
(49:59):
um and you uh I don't know ifyou have seen this study about
um um how the mind works and themind always trying to find
shortcuts yeah whenever what ineverything we do in the routine
daily routine in in the way wethink so this is something that
is come is second nature so itthat's why it's so hard to break
(50:20):
habit because the mind isalways gonna find the the the
path more traveled and and andthe safe path the path that you
know somewhere that might leadyou to something that doesn't
solve your problem so yeahcompletely agree so um thinking
(50:42):
about um the open commerce thenew writers the new authors um
the ones who are just uhstarting in the in the
profession what skills um aremissing uh in most of these kind
of new writers new new authorswhen they first approach the
society and how should creativewriting education evolve in
(51:06):
finland to make sure that thenew professionals um are ready
for this new reality yeah um ofcourse as uh working in the
field myself with uh creatingwriting i uh i've been thinking
about this a lot and uh beenthinking about this um do we
(51:30):
have a need to to evolve uh theeducation for for writers as
well uh and um uh it might besome kind of paradox being uh
teaching writing but uh i thinkthat uh uh as uh i said uh
before that um uh it it thereading the problem uh when it
(51:55):
comes to to uh to the abilityability to read text uh and deep
deeply understand uh or on on adeeper level uh the
understanding of uh of of uhtext uh and uh literature and
books uh right now today and uhhow how how we're now right now
(52:19):
facing problems when it comes toto uh to to the ability um of
uh of uh younger generations andthat's not even younger
generations that's uh ourgenerations as well um mine and
yours uh in literature we're uhwe're in the same generation no
(52:43):
worries yeah but uh i i thinkthat the main problem is that uh
that the uh if if there's uh ifthere's a problem in uh reading
comprehension uh and if there'snot an interest in in reading
(53:03):
generally uh and uh that uhthat's going of course to affect
uh uh literature as wellbecause uh then again it you can
say that it's always thereaders that becomes the writers
that's maybe not always thecase but uh in in quite uh in
quite many uh aspects that's uha truth as well but that's going
(53:28):
to it's going to affect uhliterature uh as as well uh in
in some way and uh and and wesee uh i i don't know if we're
really uh in my association wedo not perhaps see that yet but
i think that uh that it's it'sit's in a way it's hard to see
(53:50):
because i mean uh there might beuh writers that don't don't
have the skills because of uh ofthis problem uh because they uh
their the their language is notthat evolved not that strong as
uh even if they're readers ifthey're reading in in English
(54:12):
and writing in Swedish thataffects uh your writing so that
might be a be that but mightbecome a problem for you to be
published uh if you don't uh ifyou don't know your your your
tools uh so I think that's uhthat's one of the problems uh
that's one of the solutions aswell that uh the main even if
(54:37):
I'm I'm not good at marketingand I'm a uh I'm myself is is a
writing teacher and I alwaystend to say that the most
important important uh school isnot my school it's not my
teaching even if I'm doing mybest it's reading reading
reading and also writing writingwriting uh that's the best
(54:59):
school that's where you learnit's by reading your uh you
become a writer not uh and thenyou can uh get uh help to to uh
in in many ways by attending uhwriting classes and uh and and
uh and get help uh with uh withyour own voice and your own uh
(55:26):
way of of uh of uh well writinghow how you write and what you
write and things like that but Isee I see it more like uh
that's what I'm doing I see itmore like mentorship not uh as
education it in in that senseyou because you can't really you
(55:49):
can't you can just offer thetools but you can't tell a
writer what to write or how towrite it.
You can just try to to to uhhelp that person find its own
writing but not uh not give anytoolbox that uh solves the
problem for for everybody so uhthat uh and and then and then uh
(56:15):
I I can see a problem thatmaybe maybe I think the
publishing houses are now uh ofcourse uh we're uh globally
having uh economically quitedifferent uh difficult times
right now and that of courseaffects everything uh and it
(56:35):
affects the publishing houses aswell and I think they're under
pressure right now because theuh of uh uh the book market
sales uh and uh and thetendencies to to uh economical
problems everywhere in oursociety so uh that affects them
of course and I can uh what uh Iwhat is really a bigger problem
(56:59):
is that uh I I I can see maybea lack of uh active uh work with
uh some uh published publisheduh works as well so uh and
that's that's really reallyreally kind of uh affecting
(57:23):
literature as well if if there'snot uh and it it uh in two ways
um it uh it generates uh notall works but it it it might
generate uh less work with uhdebutants for example and they
need work it's not uh I mean wecan't as uh teachers uh creative
(57:49):
writers writers teacher we wedo we do do a good lot of work
with uh debutants as well andthose uh book uh book
manuscripts that ends up as adebutant works but uh you really
need a publisher to uh takecare of the process when uh it
(58:10):
uh a manuscript becomes a bookso uh I uh I see that as a as a
minor problem uh or as some kindof uh problem that uh we need
to to to work with uh and and ofcourse uh of course the uh
(58:34):
reading as I said but so it'sit's a craft that you learn by
doing so you have to uh consumeit you have to produce in order
to be better at it yeah so howare you reframing the discussion
of good literature for the nextdecade so that artistic risk
(58:59):
and author incomes move togetherrather than apart yeah um and
it's um it's really a minorityquestion uh because it's always
uh been a question for for usbecause we uh we have of course
(59:20):
we have uh a good grant systemin finland and we also have
minority grants uh and thosethings have of course when you
see uh when you uh look at ouruh finland Swedish literature
right now so uh I think that uhthe grants the state grants of
(59:42):
course but also the uh the uhprivate fundings uh that are
especially uh for the minorityliterature has been really uh
important for uh securing aliterature that is uh not uh not
only uh alive it's also in myopinion and i've uh in of course
(01:00:08):
as a president and uh andthings I've done before also I
have been reading a lot of theuh uh literature uh this
minority language literature andit's really good it's really
like not everything of coursenot everything and uh you know I
mean uh never be and everytaste is uh is different but uh
(01:00:30):
but it's really uh it's really auh quality uh literature and uh
and uh a lot of differentgenres with which is really
surprising uh it's such a smalluh small minority uh in a way
but in another way there's uh alot of different genres and a
(01:00:51):
lot a lot of different differentperspectives and uh and in a in
a really democratic way there'sa lot of uh voices as well uh
represented in the literaturewithin the literature uh not
only minority voices uh of asort but uh different
(01:01:13):
geographical uh geographicallyuh from different places and and
different socioeconomicbackgrounds and uh and you have
the uh have this uh thanks tothe grant system in in in many
ways uh I mean because uh as asyou as you know uh if you belong
(01:01:37):
to a minority uh you write uhmaybe mainly mainly for the even
if you as a writer um at leastI'm writing for uh for for for
the world not for my minority Iwant to be like uh in this
bigger context but uh of courseuh you need to know that you
(01:02:00):
need to be able to read Swedishuh to read a Swedish uh writer
uh and a Finland Swedish writeryou need to know uh that that uh
book exists uh to be able toread it and even in Sweden they
do not uh necessarily know uhwhat's going on in our minority
(01:02:23):
so uh as you can see the marketis really small so uh the
market's not going to feed us umso um so uh the good thing is
that uh we have a a good grantsystem that uh we uh really
should be be proud of and thatmake makes makes it possible to
(01:02:45):
have uh a vivid literature thatis uh is is is broad even if
it's small and um and that'sculturally I think it's it's uh
because this minority is alanguage minority uh and uh
literature is a language art soI think that's been uh been uh
(01:03:11):
of importance uh for for theculture itself as well as for
yeah so the the support of thegrants is is really make uh
makes a difference it does itdoes and this uh this is
something I mean uh both thatwe're uh working on uh to uh to
(01:03:32):
uh preserve but still uh youneed to think of uh of new
things new uh new ways to to touh to make uh to to provide uh a
(01:03:53):
healthy environment for bothliterature and the authors that
are supposed to have time andand uh possibility uh to to
write the literature to make theart uh so you have to have to
um make it possible uh for forthem as well and uh that's uh
(01:04:16):
things that I think to has to toboth uh to work in two ways as
everything now in these timeswhere everything is changing it
has to be uh we have to uhpreserve things but we have to
renew things as as as well sothat's an ongoing um I wouldn't
(01:04:37):
say struggle it's an ongoing uhwork yeah so um moving to um to
festivals and how to getrecognition has a small um um
has a author from from a comingfrom a small community so um
(01:04:59):
what do you recommend um to gobeyond um as an author to
transcend beyond uh well i ithink that i'm going to repeat
myself uh all the time uh i'm uhand as a president uh i've been
(01:05:24):
working working a lot with uhcreating uh context as well uh
for uh for the uh finlandswedish uh authors because i
think that when uh the authorsuh what what an author
experience and and and gain andwhere uh and all the
(01:05:45):
perspectives an author meetsthat of course reflects uh in
the work of the author and uh asi said before then i i i i
think that uh colliding meetingand uh and well uh having uh
(01:06:06):
impact from other cultures andother uh writers as well is of
uh a great importance and evengreater uh for every writer and
even greater for a minoritywriter or I mean uh you're
dependent of uh having somethingyou of having a broader context
(01:06:28):
because
Mikaela Taivassalo (01:06:29):
uh we're in this uh kind of small room and
uh sometimes it might be hard tobreathe in that small room so
you have you you need to havethis uh broader context contents
context uh and um and uh me meme meeting other uh authors
(01:06:49):
meeting other literatureliterature is easy because you
can uh you have uh you you haveuh access to literature uh you
can meet that's the fantasticthing about literature you can
meet any culture if it'stranslated to your language uh
or if you're able to read inanother other language then
you're able to meet othercultures even if you sit in your
(01:07:12):
own small room so uh that's uhthat's of course of big
importance but I think that uhbroadening uh our contexts uh
that's good for for everyonechanging perspectives that's
what we do that's what what wedo here now uh representing
different uh contexts here inthis uh in this discussion as
(01:07:35):
well uh those are things thathave been uh uh on on my mind
all all uh all this time whenI've been president and it's
been really important to kind ofbring that with me and try to
to make uh common grounds forfor uh for us uh and our
colleagues both uh in finlandand uh and uh uh abroad i think
(01:08:01):
that's kind of my idea of uh ofuh one of the importance with
literature is is that literaturedoesn't have any borders we can
move uh freely one uh aroundthe only border we have is uh
language border and we have uhtranslators uh those magicians
(01:08:22):
that translates uh literatureworks so we can access them uh
even if we can't speak thelanguage it's written in so uh
final question before we closetoday um future the future um we
all have a magic ball we knowexactly what's going to happen
(01:08:43):
uh so if you could secure onestructural change in Finland's
literary economy within yourcurrent term as a president what
would it be and what compromisewould you have said to make uh
to make it happen oh that's uhthat's so hard uh but uh uh the
(01:09:05):
hard part is of course thecompromising uh because right
now we're compromisingeverything uh that's more loss
than gain uh if we're talkingabout the uh cultural uh
politics uh right now but what iwould uh like to not do myself
but uh but do uh work uh for andum of course uh we want to
(01:09:33):
succeed as well but uh with mywith my fellow organizations uh
is uh uh zero book taxes booktaxes uh down to zero because uh
i think we need something thatuh that's good for for for all
the uh literary field but um aswe've been as we've been
(01:09:58):
speaking of uh now uh everythingfrom the author uh fair
remuneration for the author anduh uh publishers uh publishing
houses uh the uh that uh thatthat are able to work for for a
quality literature as well asfor uh genre literature and uh
broader liter literature likebroad spectrum uh the uh
(01:10:22):
ecological thinking uh lit uhlit literature as an uh ecos
ecosystem so uh uh that would beuh one thing that i would uh
love to have uh pushed throughuh one thing yeah uh that would
(01:10:43):
be my main aim and now i have tois it my arm maybe what would i
give in exchange it's okay youdon't have to sell yourself not
myself what would i uh give upoh that's so hard because i
wouldn't like i think uh uhgreat there's not so much to
(01:11:07):
give up uh anymore you havetaken all of me or uh for any
other um uh art uh or i iwouldn't uh like to may may
maybe well my compromise wouldbe like the uh bigger companies
(01:11:29):
could give something to art isthat a compromise no yeah yeah
we can frame it like that it'sokay it's an open discussion
yeah it's an open discussionthat's real tip typical yeah
something but i want uh somebodyelse to to to compromise uh so
i would uh i i i i promise i'm ii will be thinking of if
(01:11:52):
there's anything that i couldcompromise uh with uh yeah
perfect thank you so muchmicaela um i don't know if you
know this but there's aextremely famous song in the
latin world with your name yeahyeah super super famous and uh i
(01:12:14):
i danced that song like athousand times so you yeah i
think i have heard it yeah yeahif you know anyone latin they
will have told you for sure theywould sing it to me yeah yeah
yeah yeah yeah completelycompletely because it's it's a
very it's a very lively songalso so you when when i when i
(01:12:34):
read your name it was imminentin my mind and now that i'm
saying your name i was like okayi i have the song in my mind
again so it's like uh that's thepower of culture that's the
power of culture really yeah sothank
you so much for your time thankyou for sharing uh your
thoughts uh and your great workand yes um i i hope everything
(01:12:58):
turned out for the best and iknow you're doing an amazing
work and um i'm really uhprivileged uh to to have you
here uh today on a on an episodeuh
i'm so thankful for being here as i
said this uh communication anduh meetings are are like the
most important things that youget from uh from literature and
(01:13:20):
from uh being in this kind ofinternational context thank you
thank you and thank you also foryour wonderful questions that
have uh like a present to getquestions uh and it uh helps you
uh it prevents you falling intothat route of uh thinking yeah
(01:13:45):
yeah it it it uh it leads you
Announcer (01:13:51):
thank you for listening to intangible the
podcast of intangible law plaintalk about intellectual property
did you like what we talkedtoday please share with your
network do you want to learnmore about intellectual property
subscribe now on your favoritepodcast player follow us on
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(01:14:13):
www.intangiblia.com copyrightLeticia Caminero 2020 all rights
reserved this podcast isprovided for information
purposes only
Uh it's not measurable uh how we pay off.
It's like uh asking yourself uhwhat what is the purpose of
love?
Why do we love each other?
Is there a purpose?
Leticia Caminero (00:12):
Do we get uh what what is that doing for for
uh uh for our economical uh Isay it's doing everything,
everything is uh everything isdone by love or for love or
because of love, but despite oflove.
Mikaela Taivassalo (00:29):
So exactly.
So uh but but now uh I I thinkuh we see the same tendencies in
uh I think it's uh like globaltendencies.
We'll be discussing this in uhinternational contexts as well,
uh, that uh genre literature isunlike more uh uh literature
(00:51):
that is written written to beentertainment more than uh art.
Announcer (00:58):
You are listening to Intangibilia, the podcast of
Intangible Law, playing talkabout intellectual property.
Please welcome your host,Leticia Caminero.
Leticia Caminero (01:10):
Hello, my name is Leticia Caminero, your host,
and welcome to this new season,season eight.
On this season, we have aspecial treat.
We're gonna be interviewingdifferent members from the
International Authors Forum.
We're gonna be talking aboutpublishing, art, literature,
(01:31):
translation, and much more.
Stick around for livelydiscussions and many, many
interesting conversations.
Mikaela Taivassalo (01:45):
Hello, I'm uh Mikaela, Hannah Lamikaela
Taiwassal.
Uh but it's easier to shortendown that to Mikaela.
And uh I am the president rightnow uh for the Society of
Swedish Authors in Finland.
Uh I'm an author myself, uh uhwriting maybe maybe in every
(02:06):
genre there is, or at least I'minterested in everything.
I'm uh uh mainly, mainly,mainly prose, mainly novels, but
uh I've been writing everythingfrom children's literature to
to uh drama.
So uh I'm basically curious uhof all that is literature, and
(02:26):
literature has been like uh fromfrom the start from from
childhood, it's been the mostimportant part of uh my life.
Uh my most important friendmaybe uh has been literature
from a child and onwards, andnow I'm working both uh in the
(02:48):
field of uh author's rights anduh creatively as a writer
myself.
Leticia Caminero (02:56):
So when did you first uh thought of um
becoming an author and andworking in this beautiful field?
Mikaela Taivassalo (03:07):
I think I have kind of a classic author's
background, uh cracking the codeuh as a child by myself, or uh
of course it's not by yourself,but you uh like being curious of
books, being curious of uhwords and uh how how you do
this, how you do this coding uhwhen you see the text and you uh
(03:31):
you kind of learn that peopleuh get sentences out from these
uh scribbled uh words.
Uh and uh as I think I wasabout four years old when I
cracked the code, so to say.
And from that uh moment on, uhit was for me, it was like a
(03:51):
revelation of some kind.
I suddenly got uh got a secretroom of my own uh where I could
decide things.
As a child, it was reallyimportant to me that I could
decide.
This was my kingdom, I could doanything.
And when I uh learned to towrite, it was like uh having
(04:14):
some uh some special power thatuh gave me, gave me the words,
really, gave me a voice.
It was uh really of suchimportance to me that uh it uh
kind of is that that's it's nota moment, of course, it's a
process of learning, but thatthat uh all the reading was uh
(04:35):
so important to me that it itreally has been one of the most
life-changing in a in an earlyage, but one of the most
life-changing uh greatest uhchanges in my in my world.
And it was like uh I don'tknow, I've been a reader since,
and I uh from the reading Ibecame a writer, and that's
(04:58):
quite a classic story of beingan author.
Leticia Caminero (05:02):
Yeah, you first um uh fall in love with uh
storytelling, fall in love withthe building of uh universes
inside um uh uh black and white,and then it just comes natural.
So that links to our nextquestion on your um dual role.
(05:22):
So you lead the author societywhile you continue your career
as a writing, um as an author.
What personal system have youbuilt to keep advocacy,
administration, and art fromdraining one another?
Because they're both quite, Iimagine, consuming roles.
(05:43):
And where do they productivelycollide?
Mikaela Taivassalo (05:49):
Uh that's really an important uh question
that I've been uh thinking a lotabout, of course.
Uh because um, and it wasreally uh a nice question to get
because uh it kind of I've beenthinking of it of it, but in
like a different way, that uhthat clash between those two
(06:09):
roles uh could be uh creative aswell as well.
That's not really uh the way ofuh that's not my thinking of
it.
It's been like two dividedwords, but really they're like
uh giving things to each otheras well.
Uh for me, it's been reallyclear uh that uh writing has
(06:30):
been kind of my uh escape fromthe rule from uh from that kind
of uh doing.
I like the doing.
I'm really, really happy aboutthe possibility to do things for
the most important thing in theworld, that is literature, of
course.
Uh and working, working for uhthis to me very, very important
(06:54):
uh and uh really like uh themost important uh thing that is
to to work for uh writers'authors' rights and uh and uh
literature uh as a whole.
So uh but it's it's been it'sof course it's been very uh it's
(07:17):
consuming time and strength, ofcourse.
It's it's it's really it'sreally tough.
And these times, thesepolitical times and things like
uh things are changing uh rightnow.
We have like uh a new digitalworld that is uh emerging.
We have uh a lot of uh ofproblems and new things that are
(07:40):
not problems, that could beadvantages, but things are
moving so fast now, and uh wehave uh a political time that is
really um uh it's uh it's astruggle to be uh to be in the
world uh in this time, but uh ithas been really uh of course
(08:01):
complicated in many ways to bein this role in this time, but
uh also rewarding because youhave the sense that you uh can
do something for the things thatare important to you.
Um and for, I mean, uh I thinkthat writing is also an act of
democracy and uh human rights,not only author's rights, it's
(08:23):
human rights as well.
Um so so uh for me that hasbeen uh both uh consuming and
empowering in many ways, but Ihave had my uh comfort zone, my
escape route, and that has beenwriting.
And uh it's always been all thetime.
(08:44):
It's not been like a thing thatI have to keep on doing because
I'm a writer.
It's been quite the contrary,it's been it's been my comfort
zone, it's been uh my escapefrom uh well maybe from reality,
but not not really, becauseit's it's like um writing is
(09:04):
creating uh a kind of otherreality as well.
It's not just escaping, it's uhit's a lot more.
It's uh it's thinking, it's umit's creating a room uh to think
in.
Uh there's so many ways that uhwriting is uh empowering, uh
(09:25):
both for the person that writes,and also I'm I'm like I said,
I'm a reader from the start.
I'm a reader, so uh readingliterature is also a way of
thinking for me.
So um this uh it was such anice question to get because my
um my first thought was notthis, but my last thought, uh or
(09:47):
the chain of thoughts led tothis.
That uh really um that this umas an author, I'm uh I have my
solitude.
Um I'm I'm alone with youyou're uh as a writer, you're uh
you're craving things in yourhead by yourself.
(10:08):
Uh and uh for some people uhthat is like the dream situation
to be in.
And for some people are moresocial.
Uh and I think I I have most ofuh human beings are social
beings, so we crave to haveother people around.
And for me, uh this uh beingbeing president uh for the
(10:32):
Society of Swedish Authors inFinland has been, of course,
really like it's it's really asocial context.
You meet people, you havemeetings, you discuss things,
you argue, you uh youcommunicate, uh everything uh is
about uh being around others,you network everything.
(10:54):
Uh and it's been really uhlovely.
I I and I met a lot of newpeople, a lot of people I've met
before, of course, but uh a lotof uh new people from different
backgrounds, but we all havehad this in common that uh we're
uh writing or we're in theliterary field in some way, and
(11:14):
that has been for me really uhreally a good thing, but it also
it consumes your time, it uh itit of course your energy as
well.
Uh so for me it's been a like agive and take relationship,
really.
Uh when I've kind of uh whenit's been at its best, I got the
(11:38):
best from it all.
Leticia Caminero (11:40):
So you can escape to each world, then you
can escape to your solitude andwrite, or you can escape uh from
your solitude and and mingleand be social.
Mikaela Taivassalo (11:51):
Yes, and when you when you uh when you
meet people, when you meet othercultures, well uh this has
brought me to uh other cultures,uh this this role as a
president, of course, uh haveand this uh international
context, uh which have beenreally important to me, has uh
brought that to me.
Uh colliding with othercultures and colliding.
(12:13):
I think colliding is a goodword, it's a positive word.
I like colliding.
For me, uh literature readingis colliding, you're colliding
with somebody's uh thoughts orsomebody's perspective, just uh
to uh get to have anotherperspective is is the most
important thing.
And uh and that's too is uh hasbeen inspiring for me.
(12:36):
Uh and I didn't thought uhthink about that before I got
this question from you, but it'sbeen inspiring for me because
uh every new impulse is in a waysomething that makes you it
maybe it doesn't give you thetheme, but it puts your thoughts
uh in another route, it changesa route perspective, and that's
(12:58):
the things you need as awriter, really.
It pushes you out of your ofyour normalcy.
Yeah, exactly.
It pushes us you out from thecomfort zone, yeah, definitely.
Leticia Caminero (13:11):
Which we need uh many times, we need a push in
order to act.
So um speaking of more aboutthe role minority language in a
majority ambition.
So you are um in a smalllanguage community, a scale is
limited, but intensely can behigh.
(13:33):
Um, what metrics beyond salesshould define success for Phil
and Swedish authors?
And how is the society pushingthose metrics into publisher and
uh funder conversations?
Mikaela Taivassalo (13:48):
Yeah, well, that's really like a major
concern.
It's always been, of course,for a minority, uh, but now when
uh when times are harder, uhthen of course uh we we live in
times where uh where selling isuh is the most important and
money uh talks.
(14:09):
Uh of course you could uh thosetimes are uh coming and going
more or less uh all the timestaying.
But uh well it the times arehard, and I think that uh we
tend to get more uh literaturethat uh is kind of uh genre
literature that is uh uh thepublishing houses wants to to
(14:35):
sell.
They want, of course, becausethe times are uh hard.
So it's a struggle, economicalstruggle for all of us uh in
most countries.
Uh and literature, of course,uh is affected by this really uh
whole the cultural field andand and uh the artistic field
(14:56):
are of course the first uhfields that uh or every field,
but uh but we we're not like themoney makers, we're not a
factory, so so art is not uhpaying off in the same.
Uh it's not measurable uh howwe pay off.
It's like uh asking yourself uhwhat what is the purpose of
(15:19):
love?
Why do we love each other?
Is there a purpose?
Leticia Caminero (15:23):
Do we get uh what what is that doing for for
uh uh for our economical uh Isay it's doing everything,
everything is uh everything isdone by love or for love or
because of love, but despite oflove.
Mikaela Taivassalo (15:40):
So exactly.
So uh but but now uh I I thinkuh we see the same tendencies in
uh I think it's uh like globaltendencies.
We'll be discussing this in uhinternational context as well,
uh, that uh genre literaturesand like more uh uh literature
(16:02):
that is written written to beentertainment more than uh art
uh is getting uh more and moreof the space.
And uh it's not only I'm notonly talking about uh
measurement uh as uh uh sellingand buying books, but uh
measurement in in reading.
(16:23):
We have like most countries arefacing um problems when it
comes to reading, or manycountry uh countries are uh
facing problems uh uh regardingreading ability uh within the
population.
Uh not all.
There are uh those who uh arestill reading countries, but
(16:46):
Finland used to be like areader's country, a reading
country, and now uh now uh itseems like uh seems like we're
moving, uh sloping off from thattrack.
We're los losing losing it in abit, and that affects of course
literature uh directly.
(17:07):
So uh and uh in a way that uhthat uh the literature that
isn't uh really the best sellerliterature uh literature doesn't
really get uh as much space anddoesn't get as much readers and
uh doesn't get and this is themost important thing, I think,
(17:28):
as much interest and uh and andspace in the public eye as uh,
for example, genre literature uhand popular literature.
So uh that's and I don't meanthat genre literature literature
and popular literature, that'snot a problem in itself because
we need like uh we need a broadliterature, we need we need
(17:51):
everything, we need uh we needuh reading for for everybody and
for every um every taste aswell.
Uh but the problem is that uhthe diversity is uh shrinking.
It's it's like a this hugeecological, literature, uh
ecological uh problem that uhwhen uh when we when we tend to
(18:15):
to to lose some uh some somesmall but really important piece
of literature, then uh itaffects all the literature and
language as well.
So uh that's I think I'm uh I'mnow uh probably answering a lot
of questions at the same time.
Leticia Caminero (18:33):
Yeah, I know, but it's it's it's uh it's part
of the conversation.
So um there's the the societyshift.
So people are less likely toread uh uh for longer periods of
time, they have also less timeto read.
Um the taste changes accordingto generations, according to
what is happening in the worldas well.
(18:54):
Sometimes people like toconsume a lot of uh specific
types, and then all of a suddenthe the taste of the popular
taste shifts to another toanother gender.
So we saw that with theromanticy, there was this huge
romantic boom um that has beenhappening for the last couple of
years, and now their predictionis it's gonna change to
(19:15):
something else.
Before that, we had um the umthe older this werewolf uh
vampires kind of um boom aswell.
Uh but you can argue that thoseall of those existed for a long
time, but uh in the rate thatthey were consumed, maybe not
the same.
And we had also the issue oftechnology.
(19:37):
Technology is making us lesslikely to spend more time doing
um the reading or concentrating,which is something that our
minds are changing.
And this is concerning, um,especially when you think about
the capacity that you used tohave before you had a cell
phone, because I can rememberthe time before cell phones.
(19:58):
Um uh and I knew all phonenumbers of everyone.
And right now, I don't evenknow my own phone number.
So to see the change, somethingso minimal like that.
Now I don't I cannot evenremember.
I know that starts with oneletter and that's it, one
number, and that's it.
I don't remember the rest.
Mikaela Taivassalo (20:17):
Yeah, exactly.
And in uh in Finland, and Ithink that goes for all the
Nordic countries as least.
Uh with and this is really,really like a concern, even if
it's in one way maybe good, isthat uh uh uh the younger
population, the younger readers,uh they tend to read in
English.
(20:37):
Uh they do speak English, ofcourse, it's uh our lingua
franca, and everybody's on thenet, so everybody's there uh in
uh are international or have uhthe uh the possibility to be uh
international, which is good.
And uh and then you have youhave like that access to uh to a
(20:59):
language that uh everybodyspeaks.
I mean, we're speaking Englishright now, even if not a first
language.
Uh and and but we'recommunicating, and that's good.
Communicating is good, but itand it's good in those senses,
but it's not good, for example,uh for a minority language or
(21:22):
small language.
We have to remember thatFinnish is not a big language,
uh it's it's really a smalllanguage uh too, even if it's
not it's a majority for us,we're a minority, we speak
Swedish speaking, but uh Finnishis also uh a really small
language in the world.
And that's really it's uh it'snot good for literature if
(21:48):
people do not uh read or know,deeply know, have deep uh
insight in their own mothertongue, in their own language.
That's really a
Leticia Caminero (22:00):
uh huge concern right now even if one
part of me think it's great andit's a lot of advantages uh that
we able to communicate uh on adeeper level level uh
international that's so true andlanguages have um there we have
diverse languages because wehave diverse cultures and
(22:22):
diverse views of of the worldand there's things that i can
say in spanish that i i never beable to really translate into
another language because they'rerooted in in the tradition i'm
i'm from the dominican republicso i'm rooted in in my country
and in my culture and i wheneveri try to translate even a um a
(22:43):
small phrase i always have tohave a long explanation of what
it means and all the backgroundand so forth and i imagine that
happens to all the languages aswell there's there's so much um
um history even behind a smallphrase that can convey a lot of
meaning for someone from thatlanguage so it's it's it's
important to conserve languagesbecause that means you're also
(23:06):
taking care of culture and andand views of different views of
the world yeah and if you don'thave the deep knowledge of your
own language uh let's say forexample uh if writers do not
have that deep level ofknowledge uh of uh uh the
language which is uh the thingyou're uh working uh really hard
(23:28):
with that that is your toolthat is your most important tool
then of course uh how how canyou enrich the language how can
you it's not uh I think that uhyou need to to uh take care of
it and as you said conserve itas well uh and take care of the
culture and uh your heritage andeverything but uh I mean uh
(23:50):
writing writers and literaturedo uh make the language evolve
as well you make the uh languagealive so uh how can we do that
if we do not know and have thoseskills as uh as writers and
that's a major concern for forme yeah I I completely
(24:12):
understand and it's somethingthat we will we will talk about
it more and more the moretechnology advances the more
intercommunicated we are um themore also we have to um remember
the importance of locallanguages of national languages
and and and all that becausethat also is part of the
identity of the nation of of ofthe of the community that we
(24:34):
belong to so moving to a moreformal part um being an author
uh in this new age in this bravenew world um talking
specifically about uh contractsand authors' rights what are the
three most common clauses youurge authors to negotiate in
(24:58):
today and which new practices doyou want Finland Swedish
publishers to adopt to rebalanceinformation's asymmetries yes
(25:39):
oh uh that's um that's that'sreally uh really really a tough
question to to to choose uhthings but I uh what I've seen
uh things that uh things that uhwe do need to remind people of
all the time is uh is time uh ifyou if you're making a contract
(26:04):
you uh you have to have a settime for it uh you can't give
your rights forever and that uhyou have to have like a uh a set
time for uh when you have to uhrenew uh the contract or when
you have uh when it's not uh notuh um or when when it ends you
(26:32):
have to have like a set time sotime is one and then uh that
brings uh the uh the other thingthat uh it's really like
ridiculous that you have to keepan eye on this but you really
do have to keep an eye on youruh on your author's rights uh
(26:53):
you can't uh ever give your uhrights away and uh and if if you
don't if you don't spell thatout in a contract uh you you uh
that that's there has to bereally clear that the rights
remains within the author.
And and I I've seen no not whenit comes to to the older
(27:18):
publishing houses but uh I meanthe feel is changing and there's
new newcomers and and there'salso like uh high hybrid uh
publishing and uh and andself-publishing and semi semi
self publishing publishers aswell so we see we see that and
(27:39):
and I mean uh people uh peopledespair really a desperate need
to be published and are willingto to like uh write a contract
and and and accept uh the termsand uh and yeah that's that's
(28:00):
really one of my concerns thatI've seen a lot of contracts
where uh where where uh the uhthe rights uh or where you're
trying to keep the rights uh allthe rights the entire rights or
too many uh rights uh for forthe publisher and uh for example
(28:23):
uh so that's that's a majorproblem the uh the um author's
rights is always uh the author'sright your the rights holder uh
and that comes to the third onei was thinking about what what
what we point out the third oneis uh really uh your uh
(28:45):
following uh questions aquestion now in this time uh and
this is like a Nordic uhproblem uh the uh audiobook
problem uh that we have here uhit's not just a problem like
everything everything is notjust a problem it uh it it yeah
i mean uh literature uh gets uhits readers through uh
(29:10):
audiobooks as well but we havethe uh these uh streaming
streaming services that are kindof uh uh problematic for uh for
the authors uh we're notselling books the books are
there uh supplied uh by theplatforms uh and uh and you
(29:33):
don't you don't buy a book youuh you buy access to the books
and then uh then you um maybemaybe start uh listening to to a
book and uh there's some digitsor seconds and then you stop so
this uh measurement when itcomes to contracts that this
have been really like there's alot of uh of problems in our
(29:57):
field uh when it comes to uhthis uh streaming of uh of uh
audiobooks but uh but thetransparency problem here is
really huge uh i mean uh youhave to you you have to uh in
the reality uh in the royaltyreports reality reports that's a
(30:18):
fraud slip in the uh royaltyreports uh you you have to
report uh how many books youhave been uh selling and the
publisher has to uh report uhthe amount of books but that
that's uh difficult uh it'sreally difficult and I can
understand that it's difficultuh to uh report digits uh or
(30:42):
seconds of a book uh but uh butreally really uh the author the
rights holder has uh to be ableto know how the book is used and
by whom uh I mean thosedifferent platforms and they uh
have different uh uh differentuh systems and of course uh the
(31:07):
publisher wants to to reportthis in an in an easy way that's
understandable but still uhwe're uh I mean it's hard to act
on things if you don't know uhif you don't know how how your
book is used or what you getfrom uh from who uh in regards
of uh royalty and royaltyreports so that transparency is
(31:32):
uh is kind of a uh a really uhacute problem uh here in in in
finland and also also uh I guessin in the rest of the Nordic
countries with the same uh sameproblems and the same platforms
because they're reallynon-transparent uh and of course
(31:53):
we're hoping for for uh thepublishing host houses as well
to to to be to be uh ourpartners in in this and uh I
mean because we're uh we'requite small and uh and they have
the contact with the uhplatforms so so we really need
to to get them to be loyal to usuh to us not to to uh not to be
(32:19):
be just uh uh I guess they'renot loyal loyalty is not the
word when it comes to businessbut to have this uh kind of
business agreement with uh theplatforms uh not not to share uh
that kind of information thatis like uh business information
(32:39):
and and and uh classified but itit shan't be classified uh
because the right holder the pthe the one that has written the
book is of course the one thatuh has to to to to get all this
information should get all thisinformation so uh that that's
(33:00):
that's a complicated thing thatwe're now uh keeping our eyes on
and uh and and trying to workout but I mean uh I'm uh I'm the
president of Swedish authors inFinland and that makes me uh
president of um uh a quite smallminority um even if it's big to
be a minority uh organizationso uh I mean even if we would
(33:25):
boycott uh boycott uh the uhaudio platforms it it it I mean
it wouldn't it wouldn't work wehave to to to uh unite and do
things together and do thingstogether with the publishers as
well yeah and and you can alwaysum find ways to balance the
(33:46):
interests and and find ways tohave um to find a middle ground
between the two interestsbecause um as you explain um you
need each other so the platformneeds the the the writers and
the writers need the platform inorder to to um um put their
their works out there so there'salways um finding the balance
(34:10):
is always the hard part uh umbetween uh between the parties
but I think it's something thatit can be built on together um
little by little and newtechnologies can always help
especially with technicallimitations um now we're seeing
a lot of um breakthroughs inthat regard of tracking or
(34:31):
understanding um consumerbehavior and maybe that can also
be put into work for forunderstanding how the um the
works are being consumed and andwhere to find a a fair um
redistribution in that sense soum speaking of new technologies
(34:51):
we have the elephant in the roomAI how is the society advising
members on text and data setlicensing for AI training
audiobook and syntactic voicerights and secondary digital
uses um what would a faillicensing deal would look like
(35:13):
in the Finland Swedish uhcontext reality well I guess uh
this is like such aninternational question as uh my
only answer is that we we're uhwe we need to have exactly the
same uh kind of uh contracts andpossibilities as uh as we're
(35:38):
all uh in you in Europe and uhand on an international uh level
uh and in in Finland nationallyof course uh working uh towards
and excuse me and uh well alsothere uh if I link this to to to
(36:01):
uh what I said what I saidbefore uh when it comes to the
contract uh we need uh those uhthree uh important things
transparency consent and fairremuneration uh of course and I
I think that uh the firstproblem now is to to kind of
(36:23):
make clear that uh that alsohere uh it's the rights holder
who who has uh should have uhthat's not the case but should
have the right to decide how uhuh texts are used uh also that
(36:44):
also uh of course uh regardinguh training material as a
training material for for uh foruh IA it's not the case we we
know that uh that there are uhit's it's not easy to to control
how texts are used digitallyand there's uh different ways of
(37:08):
of uh thinking uh when it comesto to to what is fair and what
is uh uh within uh the law butuh but yeah that this is a
really a huge uh problem so myfirst impulse when I hear this
question is always even though II I know fair fairly much about
(37:31):
this problem then I just wantto scream help intangiblia the
podcast of intangible law plaintalk about intellectual property
or at least if not if not uhhelp I I I I need I I wish my uh
(37:56):
my uh or our society's lawyerwas here because she specialized
in it and even if shespecialized in it in it and
really really hardcore readseverything uh what's happening
in field and it happens and ithappens so fast then even though
uh it's hard to really put yourfinger on what's needed but
(38:19):
we're we're we're coming we'recoming somewhere uh and I I
think it's good that there areuh ways to ways to uh to try to
uh try try to um prevent uhprevent uh things uh or prevent
(38:42):
that uh that your uh material isuh is uh used or at least get
some uh remuneration for uh forfor it and that's uh and for me
for me i'm I'm more concerned ofuh of uh not not because and
that concern is really like uhit's it's all almost a waste to
(39:08):
to be concerned because it'sit's you can't control it but I
would I would if I could have awish I would like to control uh
what is done to my text andwhere it's uh used and who is
using it uh and and really wedon't want uh uh those uh uh big
companies to to profit on ourworks because uh that's unfair
(39:33):
so of course there's a uh hopethat there would be kind some
kind of uh remuneration for uhuse of of the works as well and
that has to be done on an umboth national and international
uh level because uh I mean as weknow uh tech is uh is not
(39:57):
national uh uh the digital worldis uh world is international so
we have to work on two levelsfor this.
Yes of course this is the um aswe're speaking about the
balance so all of oh it's allabout the balance i mean
technology is always going toadvance um it's always going to
(40:17):
move forward uh but we have tomake sure that it doesn't leave
people behind especially if it'sif it's being built on the work
of those people and connectingwith the next question about um
collaboration internationalcollaboration um what
cross-border alliances are mosteffective for a small language
(40:41):
community like yourself andwhere do you see on-tap uh
leverage for Finland Swedishauthors in Europe and beyond oh
uh that's too really a um coreof uh my uh of everything I I uh
(41:02):
uh that is of importance for meand uh the things I've been
working for uh or trying to uhI've been trying to work for for
for uh for uh for having like abigger context for this uh
quite small literature that wehave I mean for it's that too is
(41:26):
quite common for human beingswe want to have our context we
want to what want to have acommunication but I think that
it's uh it's it's really aquestion of life and death when
it uh concerning uh minority uhthe smaller the group uh the
bigger the importance of uhhaving uh bigger content content
(41:50):
context a bigger uh world Imean uh and for writers as well
not only for uh the literature Ithink for writers as well it's
uh it's been it's beentraditionally uh the Finland
Swedish literature has beenquite uh quite interested in
(42:10):
what's going on in the world andit's been be been like a uh uh
kind of um cultural blending uhtaking impulses from uh both uh
both the uh both central Europeand uh and the Nordic countries
of course and from Russia aswell so it's been like a a
(42:31):
blender a mix uh in a good wayin a really good way not not
like um which is the otherproblem uh uh a minority uh
language literature um mightalso be turn inwards and and
like uh just just uh be in thatsecure own space but but but I
(42:56):
uh I I think it's uh I thinkit's a uh really a question of
importance that you build uhbuild some kind of uh of larger
context for for literature andthat you have your partnerships
and your uh uh companions andand and your bigger context so
(43:18):
for for for me and for uh ourassociation in a whole it's uh
the question is yes every everycontext every every partnership
every every uh context we havehave been of uh a huge
importance for for us as a smallorganization and as a small
(43:41):
literature we have like a reallystrong connection of course to
the Finnish literature as wellwe're part of the Finnish
literature but we're also uh uhnot a part of the Finnish
Finnish literature which I I inin my opinion that's really a
good place to be in because youuh the uh perspectives the
(44:02):
different perspective that'sgood for literature it's it's
good for writers I think that uhgives a lot to to uh to uh the
literature uh written as welland that's partly a uh an answer
to your second question what wecan uh what we have to to to
bring out to the world what youcould uh give what's uh our
(44:25):
strength that is uh that it'sit's
Mikaela Taivassalo (44:29):
really it's really a uh a a living and vivid
literature even if it's smallthere's a lot of genres
represented and it's a lot of uhit's that's both a really uh a
really strong tradition of uh ofuh children's uh literature and
(44:50):
uh really a strong poetical uhtradition and so on so there's a
lot of uh of things to givegive uh well in in the same the
strength is uh uh one of ourstrengths are probably that
we're not uh we're not we don'thave a market in a good sense as
(45:13):
well so we don't have to adjustto or we shouldn't have to
adjust to mark market in thatway uh that's a problem as well
but uh it's something good aswell so for me it's uh as a
president it it's been really umof great importance to to try
to to to build uh and and keepup the strong connections uh to
(45:36):
for example sweden to of coursebecause we're part of the
Swedish literature as well uheven if we're not in Sweden so
we're strangers uh strangeliterature as well for for for
the Swedes in one way uh butwe're part of that literature as
well and the part of Finnishliterature of course and uh uh
we strongly have a Nordicconnection as well and that uh I
(46:00):
think that uh platform has beenreally of importance both when
it comes to um for authors ingeneral to to to that we're able
to read uh the literaturewritten in in the Nordic
countries uh and able to toconnect with uh personally with
(46:22):
other authors in the Nordiccountries but also that we have
like similar uh poly politicaland cultural political uh
interests and uh problems aswell so uh so that's really uh
uh uh been of importance and ofcourse for me uh the European
context but also for me it'sreally grew stronger and
(46:45):
stronger the uh need to havethis uh international context as
well because uh and it's it'snaturally and now we we spoke
about our uh our uh digital eraso we're uh we're in the same uh
digital uh geography uh so uhwe act with with the within the
(47:10):
same uh field and with the sameuh handling the same problems
and uh working for uh goodsolutions that could be like
solution beyond country bordersso uh for me for me that's been
really like uh if I've startedout this uh in the beginning I
(47:32):
was speaking about uh that uhthe times are harsh now and
harsh on culture and and andarts so what I've both
personally and I think for theassociation as well it's been
really uh really something uhprofoundly positive that we have
(47:53):
this um on an internationallevel as well have this uh
context and uh and conversationsand uh we share information uh
we uh we share uh uh what'shappening right now because you
(48:15):
know if one thing is happeninguh there then you know that
you're soon going to have thesame kind of uh problems or uh
advantages in your own countryso um uh that's that's been of
of great import importance forme both personally and as a
writer and uh for theassociation as well.
Leticia Caminero (48:40):
So there's uh power in numbers um and the
collaboration is very vital forassociations and and for for
pushing also changes but youkeep yourself as well different
because you are you keep your uhyour um uniqueness intact while
you you also keep the door openfor for talks collaboration and
(49:04):
working together so it's it's ait's a beautiful way of of of
doing the work of making sureyou stay true to to who you are
as an association yeah yeah Ithink I tend to see things like
I see literature I tend to seethis uh this work as well and uh
probably uh the way of livingis is is the uh positive uh
(49:34):
colliding but in a positive wayyeah totally agree changing
perspectives that's i i meanthat's hard that's hard even if
you aim uh aim for it and evenif you try hardly not to uh
think in the same ways you tendto to to do your thinking in
your same uh roots you uh it'sso hard it's a known road yeah
(49:59):
um and you uh I don't know ifyou have seen this study about
um um how the mind works and themind always trying to find
shortcuts yeah whenever what ineverything we do in the routine
daily routine in in the way wethink so this is something that
is come is second nature so itthat's why it's so hard to break
(50:20):
habit because the mind isalways gonna find the the the
path more traveled and and andthe safe path the path that you
know somewhere that might leadyou to something that doesn't
solve your problem so yeahcompletely agree so um thinking
(50:42):
about um the open commerce thenew writers the new authors um
the ones who are just uhstarting in the in the
profession what skills um aremissing uh in most of these kind
of new writers new new authorswhen they first approach the
society and how should creativewriting education evolve in
(51:06):
finland to make sure that thenew professionals um are ready
for this new reality yeah um ofcourse as uh working in the
field myself with uh creatingwriting i uh i've been thinking
about this a lot and uh beenthinking about this um do we
(51:30):
have a need to to evolve uh theeducation for for writers as
well uh and um uh it might besome kind of paradox being uh
teaching writing but uh i thinkthat uh uh as uh i said uh
before that um uh it it thereading the problem uh when it
(51:55):
comes to to uh to the abilityability to read text uh and deep
deeply understand uh or on on adeeper level uh the
understanding of uh of of uhtext uh and uh literature and
books uh right now today and uhhow how how we're now right now
(52:19):
facing problems when it comes toto uh to to the ability um of
uh of uh younger generations andthat's not even younger
generations that's uh ourgenerations as well um mine and
yours uh in literature we're uhwe're in the same generation no
(52:43):
worries yeah but uh i i thinkthat the main problem is that uh
that the uh if if there's uh ifthere's a problem in uh reading
comprehension uh and if there'snot an interest in in reading
(53:03):
generally uh and uh that uhthat's going of course to affect
uh uh literature as wellbecause uh then again it you can
say that it's always thereaders that becomes the writers
that's maybe not always thecase but uh in in quite uh in
quite many uh aspects that's uha truth as well but that's going
(53:28):
to it's going to affect uhliterature uh as as well uh in
in some way and uh and and wesee uh i i don't know if we're
really uh in my association wedo not perhaps see that yet but
i think that uh that it's it'sit's in a way it's hard to see
(53:50):
because i mean uh there might beuh writers that don't don't
have the skills because of uh ofthis problem uh because they uh
their the their language is notthat evolved not that strong as
uh even if they're readers ifthey're reading in in English
(54:12):
and writing in Swedish thataffects uh your writing so that
might be a be that but mightbecome a problem for you to be
published uh if you don't uh ifyou don't know your your your
tools uh so I think that's uhthat's one of the problems uh
that's one of the solutions aswell that uh the main even if
(54:37):
I'm I'm not good at marketingand I'm a uh I'm myself is is a
writing teacher and I alwaystend to say that the most
important important uh school isnot my school it's not my
teaching even if I'm doing mybest it's reading reading
reading and also writing writingwriting uh that's the best
(54:59):
school that's where you learnit's by reading your uh you
become a writer not uh and thenyou can uh get uh help to to uh
in in many ways by attending uhwriting classes and uh and and
uh and get help uh with uh withyour own voice and your own uh
(55:26):
way of of uh of uh well writinghow how you write and what you
write and things like that but Isee I see it more like uh
that's what I'm doing I see itmore like mentorship not uh as
education it in in that senseyou because you can't really you
(55:49):
can't you can just offer thetools but you can't tell a
writer what to write or how towrite it.
You can just try to to to uhhelp that person find its own
writing but not uh not give anytoolbox that uh solves the
problem for for everybody so uhthat uh and and then and then uh
(56:15):
I I can see a problem thatmaybe maybe I think the
publishing houses are now uh ofcourse uh we're uh globally
having uh economically quitedifferent uh difficult times
right now and that of courseaffects everything uh and it
(56:35):
affects the publishing houses aswell and I think they're under
pressure right now because theuh of uh uh the book market
sales uh and uh and thetendencies to to uh economical
problems everywhere in oursociety so uh that affects them
of course and I can uh what uh Iwhat is really a bigger problem
(56:59):
is that uh I I I can see maybea lack of uh active uh work with
uh some uh published publisheduh works as well so uh and
that's that's really reallyreally kind of uh affecting
(57:23):
literature as well if if there'snot uh and it it uh in two ways
um it uh it generates uh notall works but it it it might
generate uh less work with uhdebutants for example and they
need work it's not uh I mean wecan't as uh teachers uh creative
(57:49):
writers writers teacher we wedo we do do a good lot of work
with uh debutants as well andthose uh book uh book
manuscripts that ends up as adebutant works but uh you really
need a publisher to uh takecare of the process when uh it
(58:10):
uh a manuscript becomes a bookso uh I uh I see that as a as a
minor problem uh or as some kindof uh problem that uh we need
to to to work with uh and and ofcourse uh of course the uh
(58:34):
reading as I said but so it'sit's a craft that you learn by
doing so you have to uh consumeit you have to produce in order
to be better at it yeah so howare you reframing the discussion
of good literature for the nextdecade so that artistic risk
(58:59):
and author incomes move togetherrather than apart yeah um and
it's um it's really a minorityquestion uh because it's always
uh been a question for for usbecause we uh we have of course
(59:20):
we have uh a good grant systemin finland and we also have
minority grants uh and thosethings have of course when you
see uh when you uh look at ouruh finland Swedish literature
right now so uh I think that uhthe grants the state grants of
(59:42):
course but also the uh the uhprivate fundings uh that are
especially uh for the minorityliterature has been really uh
important for uh securing aliterature that is uh not uh not
only uh alive it's also in myopinion and i've uh in of course
(01:00:08):
as a president and uh andthings I've done before also I
have been reading a lot of theuh uh literature uh this
minority language literature andit's really good it's really
like not everything of coursenot everything and uh you know I
mean uh never be and everytaste is uh is different but uh
(01:00:30):
but it's really uh it's really auh quality uh literature and uh
and uh a lot of differentgenres with which is really
surprising uh it's such a smalluh small minority uh in a way
but in another way there's uh alot of different genres and a
(01:00:51):
lot a lot of different differentperspectives and uh and in a in
a really democratic way there'sa lot of uh voices as well uh
represented in the literaturewithin the literature uh not
only minority voices uh of asort but uh different
(01:01:13):
geographical uh geographicallyuh from different places and and
different socioeconomicbackgrounds and uh and you have
the uh have this uh thanks tothe grant system in in in many
ways uh I mean because uh as asyou as you know uh if you belong
(01:01:37):
to a minority uh you write uhmaybe mainly mainly for the even
if you as a writer um at leastI'm writing for uh for for for
the world not for my minority Iwant to be like uh in this
bigger context but uh of courseuh you need to know that you
(01:02:00):
need to be able to read Swedishuh to read a Swedish uh writer
uh and a Finland Swedish writeryou need to know uh that that uh
book exists uh to be able toread it and even in Sweden they
do not uh necessarily know uhwhat's going on in our minority
(01:02:23):
so uh as you can see the marketis really small so uh the
market's not going to feed us umso um so uh the good thing is
that uh we have a a good grantsystem that uh we uh really
should be be proud of and thatmake makes makes it possible to
(01:02:45):
have uh a vivid literature thatis uh is is is broad even if
it's small and um and that'sculturally I think it's it's uh
because this minority is alanguage minority uh and uh
literature is a language art soI think that's been uh been uh
(01:03:11):
of importance uh for for theculture itself as well as for
yeah so the the support of thegrants is is really make uh
makes a difference it does itdoes and this uh this is
something I mean uh both thatwe're uh working on uh to uh to
(01:03:32):
uh preserve but still uh youneed to think of uh of new
things new uh new ways to to touh to make uh to to provide uh a
(01:03:53):
healthy environment for bothliterature and the authors that
are supposed to have time andand uh possibility uh to to
write the literature to make theart uh so you have to have to
um make it possible uh for forthem as well and uh that's uh
(01:04:16):
things that I think to has to toboth uh to work in two ways as
everything now in these timeswhere everything is changing it
has to be uh we have to uhpreserve things but we have to
renew things as as as well sothat's an ongoing um I wouldn't
(01:04:37):
say struggle it's an ongoing uhwork yeah so um moving to um to
festivals and how to getrecognition has a small um um
has a author from from a comingfrom a small community so um
(01:04:59):
what do you recommend um to gobeyond um as an author to
transcend beyond uh well i ithink that i'm going to repeat
myself uh all the time uh i'm uhand as a president uh i've been
(01:05:24):
working working a lot with uhcreating uh context as well uh
for uh for the uh finlandswedish uh authors because i
think that when uh the authorsuh what what an author
experience and and and gain andwhere uh and all the
(01:05:45):
perspectives an author meetsthat of course reflects uh in
the work of the author and uh asi said before then i i i i
think that uh colliding meetingand uh and well uh having uh
(01:06:06):
impact from other cultures andother uh writers as well is of
uh a great importance and evengreater uh for every writer and
even greater for a minoritywriter or I mean uh you're
dependent of uh having somethingyou of having a broader context
(01:06:28):
because
Mikaela Taivassalo (01:06:29):
uh we're in this uh kind of small room and
uh sometimes it might be hard tobreathe in that small room so
you have you you need to havethis uh broader context contents
context uh and um and uh me meme meeting other uh authors
(01:06:49):
meeting other literatureliterature is easy because you
can uh you have uh you you haveuh access to literature uh you
can meet that's the fantasticthing about literature you can
meet any culture if it'stranslated to your language uh
or if you're able to read inanother other language then
you're able to meet othercultures even if you sit in your
(01:07:12):
own small room so uh that's uhthat's of course of big
importance but I think that uhbroadening uh our contexts uh
that's good for for everyonechanging perspectives that's
what we do that's what what wedo here now uh representing
different uh contexts here inthis uh in this discussion as
(01:07:35):
well uh those are things thathave been uh uh on on my mind
all all uh all this time whenI've been president and it's
been really important to kind ofbring that with me and try to
to make uh common grounds forfor uh for us uh and our
colleagues both uh in finlandand uh and uh uh abroad i think
(01:08:01):
that's kind of my idea of uh ofuh one of the importance with
literature is is that literaturedoesn't have any borders we can
move uh freely one uh aroundthe only border we have is uh
language border and we have uhtranslators uh those magicians
(01:08:22):
that translates uh literatureworks so we can access them uh
even if we can't speak thelanguage it's written in so uh
final question before we closetoday um future the future um we
all have a magic ball we knowexactly what's going to happen
(01:08:43):
uh so if you could secure onestructural change in Finland's
literary economy within yourcurrent term as a president what
would it be and what compromisewould you have said to make uh
to make it happen oh that's uhthat's so hard uh but uh uh the
(01:09:05):
hard part is of course thecompromising uh because right
now we're compromisingeverything uh that's more loss
than gain uh if we're talkingabout the uh cultural uh
politics uh right now but what iwould uh like to not do myself
but uh but do uh work uh for andum of course uh we want to
(01:09:33):
succeed as well but uh with mywith my fellow organizations uh
is uh uh zero book taxes booktaxes uh down to zero because uh
i think we need something thatuh that's good for for for all
the uh literary field but um aswe've been as we've been
(01:09:58):
speaking of uh now uh everythingfrom the author uh fair
remuneration for the author anduh uh publishers uh publishing
houses uh the uh that uh thatthat are able to work for for a
quality literature as well asfor uh genre literature and uh
broader liter literature likebroad spectrum uh the uh
(01:10:22):
ecological thinking uh lit uhlit literature as an uh ecos
ecosystem so uh uh that would beuh one thing that i would uh
love to have uh pushed throughuh one thing yeah uh that would
(01:10:43):
be my main aim and now i have tois it my arm maybe what would i
give in exchange it's okay youdon't have to sell yourself not
myself what would i uh give upoh that's so hard because i
wouldn't like i think uh uhgreat there's not so much to
(01:11:07):
give up uh anymore you havetaken all of me or uh for any
other um uh art uh or i iwouldn't uh like to may may
maybe well my compromise wouldbe like the uh bigger companies
(01:11:29):
could give something to art isthat a compromise no yeah yeah
we can frame it like that it'sokay it's an open discussion
yeah it's an open discussionthat's real tip typical yeah
something but i want uh somebodyelse to to to compromise uh so
i would uh i i i i promise i'm ii will be thinking of if
(01:11:52):
there's anything that i couldcompromise uh with uh yeah
perfect thank you so muchmicaela um i don't know if you
know this but there's aextremely famous song in the
latin world with your name yeahyeah super super famous and uh i
(01:12:14):
i danced that song like athousand times so you yeah i
think i have heard it yeah yeahif you know anyone latin they
will have told you for sure theywould sing it to me yeah yeah
yeah yeah yeah completelycompletely because it's it's a
very it's a very lively songalso so you when when i when i
(01:12:34):
read your name it was imminentin my mind and now that i'm
saying your name i was like okayi i have the song in my mind
again so it's like uh that's thepower of culture that's the
power of culture really yeah sothank
you so much for your time thankyou for sharing uh your
thoughts uh and your great workand yes um i i hope everything
(01:12:58):
turned out for the best and iknow you're doing an amazing
work and um i'm really uhprivileged uh to to have you
here uh today on a on an episodeuh
i'm so thankful for being here as i
said this uh communication anduh meetings are are like the
most important things that youget from uh from literature and
(01:13:20):
from uh being in this kind ofinternational context thank you
thank you and thank you also foryour wonderful questions that
have uh like a present to getquestions uh and it uh helps you
uh it prevents you falling intothat route of uh thinking yeah
(01:13:45):
yeah it it it uh it leads you
Announcer (01:13:51):
thank you for listening to intangible the
podcast of intangible law plaintalk about intellectual property
did you like what we talkedtoday please share with your
network do you want to learnmore about intellectual property
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(01:14:13):
www.intangiblia.com copyrightLeticia Caminero 2020 all rights
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