October 23, 2025 • 49 mins
What if the very thing that keeps tripping you is the doorway to freedom? Cassandra sits down with author and spiritual director Jessica Morris for a soul-deep conversation about addiction, faith, and the surprising grace of surrender. Jessica grew up in an alcoholic family, carried the wound of being called “a mistake,” and learned to survive with food and alcohol. The turning points came through brave love: a sister who set a boundary, a counselor who named the blockage, and a recovery room where honesty didn’t equal shame.
From there, the path opens into Higher Powered—how a “higher power” becomes a living relationship. Jessica shares how she moved from numbing to noticing, from hiding to looking up, guided by a counselor who modeled truth without judgment. Seminary enters the story not as a career track but as a quest to understand why encounters with Jesus divide life into before and after. A class on Revelation sparks the idea of personal eschatology: endings that are actually beginnings. Paul’s new sight, Lazarus stepping out of the tomb, and Nicodemus seeking at night echo Jessica’s own transformation.
The heart of the episode is practical and piercing: dying to self is not a one-time vow. It’s the daily chipping of barnacles—sugar, alcohol, judgment, pride, the need to control—so the boat can move again. Jessica’s guidance is refreshingly simple: get honest with God, even if the prayer is only “help me.” Write the letter you’ll never send. Trust that the scales fall in time. If you’re stuck, longing to live on your own terms while anchored in faith, this conversation offers language, tools, and hope to start where you are and keep going.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Cassandra (00:25):
Good day out there to all of my listeners, and I'd
like to welcome you to Is YourWay in Your Way podcast.
And I'm your host.
My name is Cassandra CrawleyMayo.
And for those new listeners outthere, I'd like to welcome you
to this podcast.
Let me share with you what thispodcast is about.
My new listeners and even thepeople that have heard me many
(00:47):
times before, it's really abouthaving an opportunity to guide
women to break internal barriersthat's preventing you from
living your best life on yourterms.
So we talk about topics relatedto self-empowerment,
self-improvement, and it'll alsogive you an opportunity to do
(01:11):
some reflection.
And my prayer has always beenthat somebody will hear this
message and make a decision.
You know what?
I understand the barriers thatI have.
I am going to mitigate thosebarriers.
I heard something today whereI'm just going to say, you know
what?
I'm going to do this thing.
It's kind of like my book.
(01:32):
It took me years to write abook because of my, I was in my
way, those limiting beliefs,right?
So I am actually on a missionto help you to break those
barriers so that you can startliving your best life.
Because I don't want any of youto have any regrets.
And today, our topic is titledHigher Powered.
(01:55):
And I'm going to introduce thespecial guest today, and her
name is Jessica Morris.
Hello, Jessica.
Jessica (02:03):
Hello, Cassandra.
Great to be with you today.
Cassandra (02:07):
Thank you.
Now, I want to ask my listenersthis have you ever looked at
your life and wondered, is thisreally it?
Or felt like the very thingthat you're struggling with is
the exact thing God wants to useto set you free.
So on today's episode, we'regoing to dive into a story that
(02:29):
will shake you to your core andstir your spirit.
My special guest, JessicaMorris, is an author, a
spiritual director, and a womanwho has walked through the fires
of addiction and came outrefined, not ruined.
In her book, Higher Power,Jessica unpacks the radical
(02:50):
truth that dying to self is notthe end.
It's actually the beginning ofa real abundant life.
So, guys, if you're ready for asoul revival and not just the
surface level motivation, thisepisode is your invitation for
all of us to go a little deeper.
Again, my goodness gracious,Jessica.
(03:13):
I want to, this is what I'dlike to do first.
I like to read your bio just alittle bit, a snippet.
Because I want my listeners tounderstand what qualifies you,
what qualifies you to do whatyou're doing, and what is this
higher powered uh title allabout?
(03:34):
So, as I indicated earlier,guys, uh Jessica is a spiritual
director, an author, and aredeemed woman of God whose
powerful testimony proves thatnothing is wasted in God's hand.
A recovering addict and loverof Jesus, she draws from her
personal journey through flood,through food, I'm sorry, through
(03:57):
food and alcohol addiction, thefamily disease of alcoholism
and spiritual transformation tohelp others break free from the
bondage of self.
And her latest book, HigherPower, One Woman's Journey of
Her Personal Eschatology.
And she's going to talk aboutwhat that means.
(04:17):
She boldly explores what itmeans to die to self daily and
truly live, offering readers araw and redemptive look at
freedom through faith, recovery,and surrender.
All right, Jessica.
Now it's time for you to sharewith all of us about your
(04:39):
backstory and what qualifies youto do the work that you are
currently doing.
Jessica (04:45):
Well, what qualifies me is the one-word answer, it's
God.
You know, I mean, and how I gotthere to relying completely on
him.
Um, I I the very beginning wasthe hardest part.
Yeah, I was born into analcoholic family, and that's on
both sides.
(05:05):
My um both my grandfathers werealcoholics, and my father was
an active alcoholic my almost myentire life.
Um and so my mom was, you know,the best codependent there was
because she was raised by one,and so she she knew the the
game.
And um my dad was also aMethodist minister, and my
(05:28):
introduction to God was throughthis very disease sort of
portal, you know, because whilemy father, I do believe, without
a shadow of a doubt, was calledto be a minister, he was a
phenomenal minister, he was agreat speaker, he was very good
with the people outside of ourhome.
He was very good at being aminister.
(05:51):
He also uh was absolutely analcoholic.
And I believe maybe even therewas some mental illness there.
Perhaps he was self-medicatingfor a long time.
Um, but that's you know, wasnever diagnosed, but it's that's
just my assumption.
So uh when I was real young, heI'm the youngest of four and
(06:13):
four children, and so my mom wasa school teacher, my dad was a
minister, we didn't have a lotof money growing up.
And um I was very little whenthis happened, but he uh so I
can't tell you exactly when itwas, but he told me that I was a
mistake, that he and my momonly wanted three children, and
(06:34):
that I was a mistake.
And I remember being, Iremember the moment like it was
yesterday.
In fact, when I say the wordmistake in reference to this, I
get sort of like a chill in myarms because I mean that's how
close it is still.
And um I remember we were inthe dining room and he was
sitting by his bar drinking adrink.
So, you know, I look back onit, and he was probably already
(06:58):
gone a little bit at that point.
And um, I went into the kitchento ask my mom if this was a
true statement.
Okay, and she said to me, and Iquote, uh, he shouldn't have
told you that.
Like she didn't say, No, that'snot true.
She basically confirmed it.
And I was old enough to knowthat's what she was saying
(07:21):
without saying it.
Um and then I spent the entirerest of my life trying to hide
the fact that I was a mistakefrom everybody else.
unknown (07:31):
Okay.
Jessica (07:31):
I never told that to anybody that he said that to me.
I didn't want my siblings toknow because I thought, you know
how siblings are.
I thought if they knew, they'dmake fun of me.
And and um, you know, so I justI I spent my entire life trying
to overcome that.
And that that's anybody who'sbeen told that, you know, it's
(07:53):
impossible to try to overcomethat.
Because I also, you know, hewas also my minister.
And so I felt like God wassaying that to me.
You know, it felt like that waslike this is probably why God
put God didn't like me, so heput me in this situation so that
I would suffer.
That's that was kind of what Idid in my own little mind, you
(08:15):
know.
And I started using food for uhcomfort, like way like my first
memories are about food.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
Okay.
Jessica (08:27):
I hated my father when he drank.
I didn't know what alcoholismwas, but I hated him when he
drank.
So I was just having fun when Iwas drinking.
I wasn't mean, I was justhaving fun.
And uh and so food and alcoholwere just my go-to.
That's how I went to oblivion.
(08:48):
Um, beyond that, my father wasalso pretty violent and abusive.
So there was just it was just areally hard way to grow up.
I don't want to go into allthat because I mean anybody who
you know has been in this kindof situation knows what I'm
talking about.
And um, and I, as much as Iloved Jesus, I always loved
(09:09):
Jesus.
You know, I I just always lovedhim.
I don't know if you remember,and I'm aging myself when I say
this, but there was amini-series back before all this
streaming.
There was a mini-series on TVin the 70s and early 80s called
Jesus of Nazareth.
And it was on, they'd alwaysplay it like the week of Holy
(09:30):
Week.
Uh-huh.
And it had all these amazingpeople in it, like Ann Bancroft
and um uh James Earl Jones, likeall these games were in it.
And I recorded it.
We had a Betamax.
You remember before VHS, therewas the Betamax?
And I recorded it and I wouldwatch it over and over and over
(09:53):
again.
And the one thing I remembermost about it is that it was the
most they ever showed of Jesusbeing beaten at that time and
and crucified.
It was the most they evershowed of that, and that was the
part of the movie that I keptgoing back to.
(10:13):
Like that was where I foundidentification with him.
His father did this, like,because I thought his father did
this to him.
Cassandra (10:23):
Sure.
Jessica (10:23):
You know, and so that that was, and so he was always
my guy.
Like Jesus always took me.
God was mean and God was adisciplinarian, and God didn't
like me, but Jesus liked me.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Yeah.
Jessica (10:35):
And so that's where it all started.
When I was 18, I left thechurch, I went to college.
I was like, no more organizedreligion for me, because I see
what, you know, they I see thepeople they put in charge, you
know, at because at that point Icouldn't see the goodness in my
father's preaching, you know.
I only saw what he broughthome.
(10:55):
Right.
Right.
And so so I left organizedreligion and I went completely
into my addictions, you know, incollege and in my early um
adult, young adult life, andfound I did find recovery when I
was 29, and a lot of otherstuff happened there, but I
think that gives you sort of thebackground of it.
Cassandra (11:15):
Sure, that definitely qualifies you.
Yeah, yeah.
Uh Jessica, what was yourpivotal moment?
Now you grew up um with yourparents who were who were in the
church.
Um, I don't know, and itdoesn't sound like he was a
(11:39):
closet drinker, but maybe he wasto his parishioners, like the
parishioners maybe didn't have aclue that oh no, they knew
everything.
Jessica (11:49):
Yeah, we lived in a very small town, and I think
part of the it was also the 70s,so it was a very different time
in the world.
My dad, you know, was outpartying and drinking with the
firemen and everything in thesmall town, and I think they
loved him because of it, youknow, because it endeared him to
(12:09):
them, right?
Cassandra (12:10):
Showed his human side that, you know, just because
I'm a preacher doesn't mean I'mon the straight and narrow.
So they shouldn't perhapsrelate to that.
Um, it sounds like you got to apoint in your life you had you
were just sick and tired.
Like it was what was it thatmade you say, look, I I I can't
(12:33):
do this anymore.
What was that?
What had enabled you to pivotfrom that cycle that you were
in?
Jessica (12:40):
Well, it was a uh sort of a progression of things, um,
but there were um there were twopeople who I had great respect
for who called me out.
And the first one was my oldestsister, she's six years older
than I am, and when and you knowwhat both my parents thought,
(13:03):
not that they didn't do the bestthat they could with what they
had, you know, um, but my oldersister pretty much took me on as
her own.
And she she just took meeverywhere with her.
Thank God for her.
Thank God for her.
She took me everywhere withher, she taught me manners.
I remember her like reallyparenting me, you know, growing
(13:24):
up.
And to this day, she's myclosest friend.
She's just she's the best.
And but she came to me about ayear before I got in recovery.
Uh we had a get together and Iwas out of control with my
drinking.
Yeah.
And she came to me at the nextmorning and she said, Um, she
(13:45):
called me out and she said, youknow, your drinking really
scared me last night.
She said, Um, I am not gonnawatch you do to your life what
dad did to our family.
I'm not gonna watch it, notgonna sit by and watch it.
And she left.
Like she didn't tell me what Ihad to do, she didn't tell me I
had to do this or I had to dothat.
She just said, I'm not gonnawatch this anymore.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Wow.
Jessica (14:09):
Left.
And I this is where my crazyego, uh, I mean, this is where
the addiction is just so harshbecause in my head, this is what
I thought, I'll show her.
I'm not an alcoholic like heis.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Right.
Jessica (14:27):
And because how dare she, you know, compare me to my
father.
Um, and so I went to acounselor and I start, I
thought, I'm gonna go tocounseling and I'll stop
drinking so much in front ofher.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Yeah, right.
Jessica (14:42):
But what happened was then I was already bad in my
food addiction.
My food addiction was was onein which like my weight would go
up probably like about 50pounds, then I'd lose 50, and
then I'd gain 75, and then I'dlose, you know, like that.
Yeah.
Um, and I was, but I was Ididn't realize that I was
getting to a place where Icouldn't lose weight anymore.
(15:04):
Like I couldn't even put two orthree days of a diet together
anymore.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Oh no.
Jessica (15:08):
And so when I put the booze down a little bit, I
picked up the food even more.
And in that year, I probablygained like 75 pounds in that
one year from the time she saidthat until I got into recovery.
And the reason I went torecovery was because this
counselor that I started to see,I really liked her a lot.
(15:30):
And she is that your puppy,it's Matt.
Unless there's no mat.
It's okay.
Um, I'm so sorry.
I understand completely.
Um, but I um so I was going tothis counselor, and after I was
(15:50):
with her for about a year, shesaid, you know, you have a lot
of childhood issues that we needto get to the bottom of.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Yeah.
Jessica (15:58):
But until you get this food thing under control, she
said, I don't see any of ittaking because the food is in
the way.
And I said to her, What are youtalking about?
She goes, Jessica, all you evertalk about when you come in
here is how you can't stopeating.
Oh.
And I had no idea that that'swhat I was talking about all the
(16:21):
time.
You know, I would like to saythings about my family, but I
was like nonstop talking abouthow I was trying this diet and
it wouldn't work.
And so she sent me, she said,Look, I don't have any
experience with this.
But she said, I do know thatthere are places you can go
where you just put a dollar inthe basket when the basket comes
around.
I'm not talking about acommercial weight loss program,
(16:43):
but those who need it know whatI'm talking about.
Yeah.
And um, so she there happenedto be, this is a God thing, a
meeting right across the streetfrom where her office was
located.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Yeah.
Jessica (16:55):
And she pointed at the building and she said, Thursday
nights at 7:30, they meet rightthere.
And so I went because I reallyrespected this counselor.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Yeah.
Jessica (17:07):
Um, and I knew from the moment I sat in that room and I
cried through the whole meetingbecause these people were
saying exactly what I was doingwith food, but they were saying
it out loud with no shame andactually joy in their faces
because they were recovering,they were recovering from it.
(17:29):
Okay, and and I knew it wasexactly where I needed to be.
Cassandra (17:35):
So this was for food addiction, not alcohol.
Jessica (17:38):
I went in first for food, yes.
Cassandra (17:40):
Okay, all right, okay, and and did so it evolved
into alcohol of individuals thatwere in that space, were they
all addicted to food or justthat had an addiction?
Jessica (17:52):
Well, it was interesting because again, the
people in that first room wereall food, food in recovery for
food.
And the woman I asked to helpme in the beginning, um, she
said to me, she gave me a foodplan and she said, take this to
your doctor and make sure it'sokay for your body type.
She's like, because I'm not adietitian or anything, this is
just what I receive.
(18:14):
And she said, and just so youknow, there's no drinking on
this food plan.
You can't drink any alcoholbecause they've determined that
sugar is the addictivesubstance, yeah, and there's
sugar in alcohol.
Yeah, and so I said this iswhat I said.
See, still very cocky at thispoint.
I said to her, Well, I don'thave a problem with alcohol, so
(18:34):
that's fine, right?
Within a year, she was sendingme to an addictions counselor
because she she was this womanwas also in the other program
okay, and for alcoholics, andshe knew just from talking to
me, even though I wasn'tdrinking that I had all the
(18:56):
attitudes and behaviors.
And so she sent me to this guy,and that's where the counseling
(19:25):
took off, and I started workingthe other program as well.
Cassandra (19:29):
Oh, wow.
So with that other counselor,um was he counseling?
Did he talk about God?
Did he talk about Jesus?
Like, what do you think helpedyou through this journey as you
look back on things?
Jessica (19:49):
He was that that counselor was I would say the
closest thing, uh, the closestspirit in a person that I've
ever met that is closest to God.
Um very accepting, loving, alsovery truthful and stern.
(20:15):
He wasn't gonna take any of mycrap, you know.
Um, he was gonna tell me thetruth.
He wasn't gonna co-sign any ofmy bull, you know.
Um, and he, but he never likehe would occasionally, in fact,
I still have a um part of myproblems were financial.
Like I was in a lot of debt.
(20:36):
And I talked to him about thatas well.
And he gave me a little, he hada post-it note and he wrote on
it for where your treasure is,there your heart will be also.
And he put the verse.
I think it's Matthew, I forgetexactly which, but I still have
it taped in my wallet.
Um, you know, like so everyonce in a while he'd give you a
little verse, but he neverpushed any of his own beliefs on
(21:00):
his clients, but he was verymuch like at the end of um we
had these treatment weekendswhere the entire weekend we
would go and stay overnight andgo through the work.
You know, it was very intensetherapeutic work.
And on the Sunday morningbefore we left, the counselors
would come out with buckets ofwater and they would they
(21:21):
wouldn't they wouldn't have ustake our feet or shoes off, but
they would wash our hands.
And it was it was you know, avery symbolic, yes, very
symbolic um thing.
And so I think he he was thefirst man for real that I was
able to trust and really um Iremember him saying, Do you
(21:45):
watch the show The Chosen?
Speaker 1 (21:48):
Yeah, I've heard of it though.
Jessica (21:49):
Okay, well, it's phenomenal.
I highly recommend it.
Okay in the show, anytime I'venoticed Jesus is talking to a
woman, usually she looks downbecause that timing, you know,
that culture back then, lookdirectly at a man.
And the character Jesus alwayssays to the women, he'll say,
(22:09):
Look up, look up, you know,because he wants to see their
face when he's talking to them.
Long before that show ever, andthat gives me chills right now,
telling you that, because longbefore I ever saw that show,
before I was willing to stepback into, you know, seeking God
and everything, yeah.
I remember not being able toeven look at the other women in
(22:32):
my women's therapy group becauseI was so ashamed of my behavior
and everything.
And I'll never forget the firsttime I looked up, Steve
actually got up out of his chairand came over and kneeled down
so he was face to face with me.
Is that the guy with counselor?
Steve.
Yes, that was the counselor,and he and I heard him say,
(22:56):
Jessica, look up.
Oh and I just looked up at him,and and he and it took me a
while, you know.
He goes, Nobody in here, nobodyin here is judging you.
Look around at the faces ofthese women, they love you, they
know you, they've been you,they are you, and I am here to
(23:18):
tell you nobody is judging you.
And it I get teary, like rightnow, I'm a little teary telling
you this because like I said, hewas the first man that I could
really look eye to eye and andand be honest about who I was.
Cassandra (23:35):
Okay, so all the testing, you know, they there's
a saying that says, no tests, notestimony, you know.
So out of all of the testing,um what made you decide to get
in the work that you're in?
Because all of that stuff, youknow, it is still a work in
(23:58):
process.
I mean, it's it's it's anongoing thing.
And it sounds like thataddiction, you were in your way,
you know.
Um, is your way in your way?
How how what was it?
And you talk about dying toself, you talk about having a
relationship with God.
How did all of that help youget out of your way?
Jessica (24:23):
Well, you know what?
Jesus is awesome.
Okay, let me just say, Jesus isawesome because about six years
before I got into recovery,somewhere around six or seven
years before, I had an encounterwith Jesus, a literal personal
encounter with Jesus, and I ranaway from him.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Yeah.
Jessica (24:45):
Okay.
Um, and it was the biggestregret, like he literally was
there.
I was crying out to God, and Iknow he was there, but I didn't
look at him, and instead I ranback into the party that I was
because I was outside when thishappened.
And um those six years from thetime that happened until the
(25:09):
time I got into recovery, and Iwould even say, like maybe even
the first year of recovery, um,that was weeping and gnashing of
teeth.
Like that was literal hell onearth.
I mean, everything that he saysabout his second coming um in
regards to what's going tohappen to those who turn away
from him, that happened to meduring the that time.
(25:32):
I was isolated.
It was horrible.
And when I got into recoveryand started to the reason the
book is called higher powered isbecause in the rooms of
recovery, that's the term thatthey use, higher power, because
they don't want anybody to haveto believe anything, you know,
(25:53):
because a lot of people havebeen harmed by the church in one
way or another.
And so they just want people torecognize look, we're all here
because we're addicts, it's theonly reason we're here, right?
You've got to accept andsurrender to the fact, though,
that this is not going to workfor you unless you have a higher
(26:13):
power.
This cannot be coming from you,it's gotta come from a
spiritual solution, right?
Yeah, and so but what happenedto me is when that happened, I
when that happened with Jesus, Ilike put it out of my brain
because I was I was so ashamedof myself for running away that
I just turned it off like itnever happened.
(26:35):
But what happened in earlyrecovery is I started seeking,
seeking, seeking, seeking.
I was reading books, I mean, Iwas devouring books on Jesus and
spirituality, and and then Imet the chaplain where I worked,
and he and I would go to lunchand we'd be talking like I would
just talk to him, and he wasacting, he was actually the
(26:55):
first man of the cloth that Ifelt I could trust.
And we talked and talked andtalked.
I mean, until finally I said tohim, I think I want to go to
seminary, which is crazy becauseI don't want to be a minister,
I just feel like I can't, right?
Uh-huh.
Yeah, like I just want to learnthis, you know.
You were thirsty.
And so I so I did.
(27:17):
I went, I he he encouraged me.
He's like, Jessica, if that'swhat you feel called to do, then
do it.
And while I was sitting in aclass in my second class in
seminary, I had the memory.
I was sitting in intro to NewTestament, yeah, and we were
talking about Revelation, thebook of Revelation, and I was
thinking about Jesus' secondcoming, and I and I thought, I
(27:39):
wonder if, since everything thathe says we talk about is
metaphorical or symbolic, youknow, the way he shares parables
and all that stuff, like maybehe was being metaphorical about
his second coming.
Like maybe he meant it wasgonna be personal.
And then I had when I had thatoriginal thought, I remembered
(28:02):
him showing up outside thatparty.
And I was and I was like, Oh mygod, like it hit me, he did
come and I did run away.
And look what happened.
Cassandra (28:15):
Wow, what a revelation!
Jessica (28:18):
And that's where it all sort of you know came together
and started, and and I it's allGod, Cassandra.
It's all God because he justkept giving me the pieces that I
could accept in the moment.
Cassandra (28:34):
Well, look, what about um you talked about a
personal relationship?
You sound like you had apersonal relationship when you
left that party.
That the the dots startconnecting later on in life.
How do you how does you howdoes one get a personal
relationship?
What does a personalrelationship with Jesus?
(28:56):
Because I hear that a lot.
I'm not religious.
I the key is having a personalrelationship.
How does one acquire that?
Jessica (29:07):
Um, well, you know what?
I think um for me anyway, the Ithe big identifier when I was
growing up, which I alreadymentioned, was really kind of
like a perverse way of lookingat the relationship between God
and Jesus.
Because, you know, now that I'myou know a grown woman and I've
(29:28):
I you know experience seminaryand everything, I understand
that God was not punishingJesus.
I understand now that God isJesus and He did this for us
because He loves us, like we getthat now, but this is the
personal part of it.
That is what God knew I couldunderstand in that moment, and
(29:50):
so He used it to keep meconnected, okay, and so all
those years, like even um uh doyou remember the movie The
Passion of the Christ?
When that came out, I was aboutfive years clean.
And I remember I went to seethat with a friend, and there's
(30:13):
a scene in that movie where umyou see the whole scene is from
Mary Magdalene's point of view,and she's down on the ground in
the dirt, and she sees all theserocks dropping.
And then she looks up and shesees Jesus, and he has his hand
outstretched to her, and then hepicks her up off the ground.
(30:33):
I wrote Mel Gibson a letter andI said to him, If you do
nothing for the rest of yourlife, the way you filmed that
scene, yeah, you were speakingdirectly to my heart.
Because that was what happenedto me.
And you know, Jesus picked meup off the ground and he said,
(30:55):
please follow me, and it's gonnaget better, I promise.
Like I knew in that moment, andso that's what I mean when I
say personal.
Like he just kept coming to me.
He, you know, when he knew Icouldn't look at him, he gave me
all these people in recoverywho had experienced life the way
(31:16):
I had experienced it.
Yeah, and they were recoveringfrom it.
Yeah, they may not have beenChrist followers.
I don't even know for some ofthem, but I know he used them.
Sure.
You know, I know he used themto speak to me.
Yeah, so he came to you as youwere.
Exactly, exactly.
And he keeps doing it, like hekeeps, you know, as I'm like
(31:37):
then he like after I getcomfortable with Steve, the
first man that I can trust,right?
He then presents me with thechaplain.
Yeah, you know, and it's like Iprobably couldn't have accepted
him prior to meeting Steve, youknow, and it just all like in
hindsight, it all makes reallygreat sense.
You know, but when I'm goingthrough it, I'm kind of like,
(32:00):
why, you know, on a rollercoaster.
Cassandra (32:02):
Oh, that's awesome.
Um, because you know, uh, asthis podcast is about, is your
way in your way?
And there are a lot oflisteners, there are certain
things that they'd like to do.
Many of them could have beenaddicted or know someone that
has.
And then, you know, and I hearpeople say, Well, that's that's
(32:23):
my fate, you know, I grew uplike that, and you know, blaming
someone else not knowing thatwhat you need is inside.
And as you indicated, that, youknow, for you and many of my
listeners, even for me, if itwere not for God, I always say,
Where would I be?
And then I then I say, I knowwhere I'd be.
(32:44):
I wouldn't be at thisparticular place right here.
And I love the fact that it'sall about is your way in your
way?
If you don't want that to be inyour way, you die to self.
Okay.
And I want you to talk aboutwhat that means because actually
I read that in your in theintroductory.
Right, die to self.
(33:06):
What does that mean?
Jessica (33:09):
That means, um, you know, I'll I'll take it to one
thing you just said because Iwas a professional victim for a
long time.
You know, um, you would drinkthe way I drink if you had my
father too.
Yeah.
You know, you, you know, andthat kind of behavior, you know.
And thankfully, in earlyrecovery, I met a woman who was
(33:31):
very truthful with me about whatshe saw in me.
It wasn't always easy toaccept.
Sure.
But one of the things that shesaid to me about my victimhood
and my martyrdom, you know, shesaid, you know, Jessica, she
said, here's how I look at it.
You're a victim until you're18.
(33:52):
Okay, because now you're anadult.
Exactly.
Once you're 18, you're avolunteer.
Like, so stop showing up andvolunteering for it.
If you don't want to be avictim anymore, then don't be a
victim anymore.
Right.
And I, you know, she took, shelike popped the error out of my
balloon of blaming other people.
(34:14):
She was basically saying to me,take responsibility for your
life.
unknown (34:18):
Right.
Jessica (34:19):
You know, you're the one, you're the only one who can
change you.
You know, you have to be theone who takes the steps.
You can't wait for your dad toget sober in order to have a
happy life, because then you'rerelying on him, and people will
always disappoint you.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, the only one who's notgoing to disappoint me is God.
(34:39):
Only one.
And so so what I learned andwhat I've learned over the
years, and I actually haveseveral chapters in the book
where I talk about dying to adifferent part of myself.
Because it's not a for me, it'snot a once and done thing.
It's it's you know, likebecause new things keep getting
(35:00):
revealed.
You know, I keep seeing likefirst it first it was the food
and the alcohol, right?
I had to put those things down.
And believe me, when you'veused them for 29 years, to it is
hard.
But I can tell you that it'sbeen 25 years since I've had
sugar at all.
Cassandra (35:18):
Oh, wow.
Jessica (35:20):
I mean, other than in in a piece of fruit, sure, you
know, or in a vegetable.
I I don't like sugar.
And if you'd have told me thatwas possible when I first
started, I would have said,You're nuts.
There's no way.
You know, but here I am, youknow, and so so that was the
first thing.
But then it becomes I have todie to my selfishness, I have to
(35:42):
die to my judgment of others.
I have to just so all thelittle pieces of me, I always
think of them as barnacles.
I'm a boat and I'm sailingthrough the water.
And the more barnacles I haveon me, the slower I'm gonna
sail, right?
And it's gonna hold me back andI'm gonna get stuck on stuff.
So I've got to chip thosebarnacles off.
And with each one of those, I Ilove in in the book, one of my
(36:06):
chapters is called The Death ofPerfect Knowledge, Jessica.
Because I spent so much timewhile I was in seminary.
This this came in my last yearof seminary when I recognized
that everything I had justlearned doesn't mean diddly
squat when it comes to me andJesus sitting down together.
(36:30):
Okay, you know, and yes, it'swonderful to learn all that.
And I love that I know it and Ikeep going.
I love to study, I'm a lifelonglearner, right?
Yeah.
I'm still in the books, youknow.
But when it's me face to facewith Jesus, he doesn't give a
crap if I know the order of thebooks in the Bible.
(36:51):
I really don't think he does.
Right.
Cassandra (36:54):
So tell him listens.
What does he give a crap aboutif it's not that?
Jessica (37:00):
He gave he cares about my heart.
He cares about, you know, Ithink he I I picture me and
Jesus sitting on the beachlooking at the water together
and just talking and justtalking about my life, talking
about what he did for me.
He cares about, you know, whatdo I think of my neighbor?
(37:20):
What do I think, you know, whatam I doing for the people
around me?
What am I doing?
Because I can't save the world,right?
I don't have that power.
I can't I can vote for apresident, but I can't make a
president a president, right?
But what can I do your partnerof the world?
You know, and for me, sometimesthat's just praying for people,
(37:42):
yeah.
You know, because some peopledon't want to hear the truth,
that's right, but I can pray forthem.
Cassandra (37:48):
Absolutely, yeah, absolutely.
It's kind of like as Jesussays, pick up your cross and
follow me.
Yes, yeah, do what he does.
Jessica (37:58):
Exactly.
What did he do?
And that's the thing thatdrives me crazy.
You know, when I hear peopletalk about like, yes, Jesus was
all about peace, he was alsoabout turning over the tables in
the temple when people weremessing with God.
Cassandra (38:13):
Yes, he did.
Jessica (38:14):
So, you know, he it wasn't like he was sitting back
and letting people walk all overhim, right?
You know, he was being honestabout what he saw and he didn't
like it.
So there are times when I feellike I do need to say things
outright that some people don'twant to hear, you know.
But exactly that's a part offollowing him.
Cassandra (38:34):
Well, that's great because all that you said, you
have to have a personalrelationship.
I mean, sitting on the beach, Imean, you wouldn't sit on the
beach with somebody you don'tknow, right?
So, you know, it's it's allpersonal.
Talk about your neighbors, youknow, um, because your secret is
safe with him because he knowswhat your secret is.
And in you, you know, we wetalk about um dying to self, and
(39:00):
you talked about um no longerjudging yourself or judging
others, uh, because God saysthat not to judge others,
because then you'll be judged,right?
And so it sounds like, and formy listeners, to the the things
that they want to do, it'scertain things that you knew
(39:22):
that God was leading and guidingyou to seminary, even even your
uh what you went through as aas a young person.
Look what he did, you know.
Um, even Paul, for those whoread the Bible, know half of it
is about him in jail, right?
I mean, just think about thethings that he did.
(39:42):
He was a mascot, he wascrucified, he was he was oh my
gosh, he was all against Jesus,but he had a personal moment
when he fell off that horse andgot blind, right?
Um so um I wanted us to talkabout a minute about um
(40:03):
eschatology, which is likedeath, judgment, and the final
destiny of the soul andhumankind.
So you studied that as well.
Jessica (40:12):
Yeah, what happened was um eschatology is just the you
break down the the etymology ofthe word and it's and it's the
study of the end times.
So it's a big word for a bigidea, I guess you could say.
Um, and there are intheological circles, there's a
(40:32):
lot of different ideas aboutwhat that means, like what did
the end times mean?
Um, but what people are mostfamiliar with is is what's
called apocalyptic eschatology,which would be the book of
Revelation.
Like it's a it's a prophecyabout the future.
This is what's gonna happen,and it's gonna be a complete
transformation of everythingthat you think you know.
(40:54):
Okay.
And so um I when that's why itwasn't weird to me when this
idea came to me for a personaleschatology to be also a thing
when I was sitting in the classwhere we were discussing
revelation, because it was likeit was just right here, you
know, and then I was I wasthinking and and and I remember
(41:18):
that.
And when I went to theprofessor and I said, you know,
what about this idea?
You know, like what about if itwas just and he suggested that
I um I do just an individualstudy first on eschatology and
learn all the different formsthat are accepted and uh among
(41:38):
academic circles and that sortsort of thing.
And so I did that with him, andthen when I was about to write
my thesis, because I yeah, I wasdefinitely gonna go for it.
I was I was gonna go for it andI was gonna, and I said to him
when we were done, I want you tobe my advisor for my thesis.
Oh and then he left the nextyear.
He got a new job and he left.
(42:00):
And before he left, he came tome and he said, Look, I know you
wanted to write your thesiswith me, but I have already
talked to, and then he named theprofessor that he talked to,
which I have never had for aclass, but he was also the dean
of the seminary, and I wasfreaking out that he already
(42:22):
talked to him about me becausethere's this like crazy smart
guy, right?
And he said, and he's he wouldlove to work, I think he would
love to work with you on thisbecause it's a fascinating idea.
And what happened in in thattime when I was working with him
on that thesis, which is wherethe book comes from, um I he he
(42:46):
steered me towards um theapostle Paul, uh, the story of
Lazarus, uh, the raising ofLazarus, and Nicodemus.
And we studied those together,and I wrote, and they're all in
the book, Higher Powered,because I used a lot of what I
wrote um for my thesis.
(43:08):
I used in this book.
And it's basically what happensto a person during their
personal eschatology is theywere this way, okay?
They were right here, they werethis way, and they were moving
along, and right about here theymet Jesus, okay, right?
And now they're this way, youknow, and sometimes it takes
(43:29):
longer for some people, right?
Sometimes people go rightthere, you know, like but for me
it was very uh sort ofawakening over time
transformation type thing, andso I use those three stories
from the Bible, and then I weavemy own uh personal eschatology
through through all of that andthe dying of myself as I'm going
(43:54):
along with him.
Cassandra (43:55):
Yeah.
Wow, we gotta get that book.
Sounds amazing.
You know, um, Jessica, I couldtalk to you all day, but I I
would love for you to give aword to my listeners who are
really struggling, who arestuck, they know there's
something else that they shouldbe doing, but they cannot.
(44:16):
Um, they're looking, even nowthat you've spoken, some of them
probably are looking to exploreand deepen their relationship
with God.
What would you encourage themto do?
Give them some spiritualdirection.
Jessica (44:34):
Well, you know what?
I would say that if you want apersonal relationship with
Jesus, get personal with him.
You know, sit down and uh tellhim what you're really feeling
because he already knows.
But you know, I I really thinkhe wants to hear it from us.
(44:57):
I think that you know, we thinkwe have to go to him in a
certain way, you know, we thinkwe have to pray the right way,
or you know, say the rightwords, or I found that the best
prayers um or the prayers Iwould say that gave me the most
relief that have come out of mehave been ones that were real
(45:20):
short, like, could you just helpme?
Because I don't even know whatI need right now.
Yeah, you know, and and he hedoes, he knows exactly what I
need.
You know, and when I sit thereand I give him a laundry list of
things, God, give me courage,give me this, give me that.
Well, maybe I don't need thosethings.
Maybe right now, all I need isan openness.
(45:43):
Maybe I need to remove, youknow, when the scales fall from
Paul's eyes, yeah, maybe thescales need to fall from my
eyes.
Yeah, yeah.
You know, and and only he knowsthat.
So I would say if you'restruggling and you want a
personal relationship with him,get honest with him.
Write him a letter that you'renever gonna send, you know, or I
(46:07):
I mean, I used to do that allthe time in early recovery, and
I would yell at God.
I I I had letters that werelike the paper was ripped
because I was leaning so hard onthe paper because I was so
angry.
You know, but that's you gottaget real.
You gotta get real and stoptrying to do it right, just do
it.
Cassandra (46:27):
I love that.
I love that, Jessica.
Thank you.
Please tell my listeners howthey can get first of all.
You have some beautiful blogs.
I would encourage my listenersto read your blogs.
Um, the psalm of my heart forthe month of July, I just
thought was so special and so soprecious.
(46:50):
So tell them how they can getin touch with you.
Jessica (46:56):
Anything you want to find out about me, you can do
through my website.
It's just uh my name with mymiddle initial, jessica
lmorris.com.
And everything, my books are onthere, spiritual direction
information is there.
There's a contact form, my blogis there if you want to follow
it.
Um so yeah, everything you needis right there.
Cassandra (47:16):
All right.
Okay, okay.
Well, one of the things I sharewith my listeners as I'm
signing off, Jessica, I want tothank you for your wisdom, your
insight, and just what you'vebeen through and your openness
about it for individuals to seethat nothing's too hard for God.
If if you're stuck or you knowit's something you want to do,
(47:39):
like like like I do, I seek him.
I I always one of my prayerswas help me Jesus.
You know, I would just justseek him.
And um I I just, you know,again, thank you for your
openness because that awarenessand being open sometimes is
really half the battle.
Because a lot of people realprivate, you don't tell at all,
(48:02):
but you tell enough to seepeople that that you're human
and and you've gone throughthings, but look at you now.
So I say to you, thank you.
I say to my listeners, Godbless you, and bye for now.
Again, thank you very much.
Jessica (48:18):
Thank you, Cassandra.
God bless.
Cassandra (48:21):
Yes.
Good day out there to all of my listeners, and I'd
like to welcome you to Is YourWay in Your Way podcast.
And I'm your host.
My name is Cassandra CrawleyMayo.
And for those new listeners outthere, I'd like to welcome you
to this podcast.
Let me share with you what thispodcast is about.
My new listeners and even thepeople that have heard me many
(00:47):
times before, it's really abouthaving an opportunity to guide
women to break internal barriersthat's preventing you from
living your best life on yourterms.
So we talk about topics relatedto self-empowerment,
self-improvement, and it'll alsogive you an opportunity to do
(01:11):
some reflection.
And my prayer has always beenthat somebody will hear this
message and make a decision.
You know what?
I understand the barriers thatI have.
I am going to mitigate thosebarriers.
I heard something today whereI'm just going to say, you know
what?
I'm going to do this thing.
It's kind of like my book.
(01:32):
It took me years to write abook because of my, I was in my
way, those limiting beliefs,right?
So I am actually on a missionto help you to break those
barriers so that you can startliving your best life.
Because I don't want any of youto have any regrets.
And today, our topic is titledHigher Powered.
(01:55):
And I'm going to introduce thespecial guest today, and her
name is Jessica Morris.
Hello, Jessica.
Jessica (02:03):
Hello, Cassandra.
Great to be with you today.
Cassandra (02:07):
Thank you.
Now, I want to ask my listenersthis have you ever looked at
your life and wondered, is thisreally it?
Or felt like the very thingthat you're struggling with is
the exact thing God wants to useto set you free.
So on today's episode, we'regoing to dive into a story that
(02:29):
will shake you to your core andstir your spirit.
My special guest, JessicaMorris, is an author, a
spiritual director, and a womanwho has walked through the fires
of addiction and came outrefined, not ruined.
In her book, Higher Power,Jessica unpacks the radical
(02:50):
truth that dying to self is notthe end.
It's actually the beginning ofa real abundant life.
So, guys, if you're ready for asoul revival and not just the
surface level motivation, thisepisode is your invitation for
all of us to go a little deeper.
Again, my goodness gracious,Jessica.
(03:13):
I want to, this is what I'dlike to do first.
I like to read your bio just alittle bit, a snippet.
Because I want my listeners tounderstand what qualifies you,
what qualifies you to do whatyou're doing, and what is this
higher powered uh title allabout?
(03:34):
So, as I indicated earlier,guys, uh Jessica is a spiritual
director, an author, and aredeemed woman of God whose
powerful testimony proves thatnothing is wasted in God's hand.
A recovering addict and loverof Jesus, she draws from her
personal journey through flood,through food, I'm sorry, through
(03:57):
food and alcohol addiction, thefamily disease of alcoholism
and spiritual transformation tohelp others break free from the
bondage of self.
And her latest book, HigherPower, One Woman's Journey of
Her Personal Eschatology.
And she's going to talk aboutwhat that means.
(04:17):
She boldly explores what itmeans to die to self daily and
truly live, offering readers araw and redemptive look at
freedom through faith, recovery,and surrender.
All right, Jessica.
Now it's time for you to sharewith all of us about your
(04:39):
backstory and what qualifies youto do the work that you are
currently doing.
Jessica (04:45):
Well, what qualifies me is the one-word answer, it's
God.
You know, I mean, and how I gotthere to relying completely on
him.
Um, I I the very beginning wasthe hardest part.
Yeah, I was born into analcoholic family, and that's on
both sides.
(05:05):
My um both my grandfathers werealcoholics, and my father was
an active alcoholic my almost myentire life.
Um and so my mom was, you know,the best codependent there was
because she was raised by one,and so she she knew the the
game.
And um my dad was also aMethodist minister, and my
(05:28):
introduction to God was throughthis very disease sort of
portal, you know, because whilemy father, I do believe, without
a shadow of a doubt, was calledto be a minister, he was a
phenomenal minister, he was agreat speaker, he was very good
with the people outside of ourhome.
He was very good at being aminister.
(05:51):
He also uh was absolutely analcoholic.
And I believe maybe even therewas some mental illness there.
Perhaps he was self-medicatingfor a long time.
Um, but that's you know, wasnever diagnosed, but it's that's
just my assumption.
So uh when I was real young, heI'm the youngest of four and
(06:13):
four children, and so my mom wasa school teacher, my dad was a
minister, we didn't have a lotof money growing up.
And um I was very little whenthis happened, but he uh so I
can't tell you exactly when itwas, but he told me that I was a
mistake, that he and my momonly wanted three children, and
(06:34):
that I was a mistake.
And I remember being, Iremember the moment like it was
yesterday.
In fact, when I say the wordmistake in reference to this, I
get sort of like a chill in myarms because I mean that's how
close it is still.
And um I remember we were inthe dining room and he was
sitting by his bar drinking adrink.
So, you know, I look back onit, and he was probably already
(06:58):
gone a little bit at that point.
And um, I went into the kitchento ask my mom if this was a
true statement.
Okay, and she said to me, and Iquote, uh, he shouldn't have
told you that.
Like she didn't say, No, that'snot true.
She basically confirmed it.
And I was old enough to knowthat's what she was saying
(07:21):
without saying it.
Um and then I spent the entirerest of my life trying to hide
the fact that I was a mistakefrom everybody else.
unknown (07:31):
Okay.
Jessica (07:31):
I never told that to anybody that he said that to me.
I didn't want my siblings toknow because I thought, you know
how siblings are.
I thought if they knew, they'dmake fun of me.
And and um, you know, so I justI I spent my entire life trying
to overcome that.
And that that's anybody who'sbeen told that, you know, it's
(07:53):
impossible to try to overcomethat.
Because I also, you know, hewas also my minister.
And so I felt like God wassaying that to me.
You know, it felt like that waslike this is probably why God
put God didn't like me, so heput me in this situation so that
I would suffer.
That's that was kind of what Idid in my own little mind, you
(08:15):
know.
And I started using food for uhcomfort, like way like my first
memories are about food.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
Okay.
Jessica (08:27):
I hated my father when he drank.
I didn't know what alcoholismwas, but I hated him when he
drank.
So I was just having fun when Iwas drinking.
I wasn't mean, I was justhaving fun.
And uh and so food and alcoholwere just my go-to.
That's how I went to oblivion.
(08:48):
Um, beyond that, my father wasalso pretty violent and abusive.
So there was just it was just areally hard way to grow up.
I don't want to go into allthat because I mean anybody who
you know has been in this kindof situation knows what I'm
talking about.
And um, and I, as much as Iloved Jesus, I always loved
(09:09):
Jesus.
You know, I I just always lovedhim.
I don't know if you remember,and I'm aging myself when I say
this, but there was amini-series back before all this
streaming.
There was a mini-series on TVin the 70s and early 80s called
Jesus of Nazareth.
And it was on, they'd alwaysplay it like the week of Holy
(09:30):
Week.
Uh-huh.
And it had all these amazingpeople in it, like Ann Bancroft
and um uh James Earl Jones, likeall these games were in it.
And I recorded it.
We had a Betamax.
You remember before VHS, therewas the Betamax?
And I recorded it and I wouldwatch it over and over and over
(09:53):
again.
And the one thing I remembermost about it is that it was the
most they ever showed of Jesusbeing beaten at that time and
and crucified.
It was the most they evershowed of that, and that was the
part of the movie that I keptgoing back to.
(10:13):
Like that was where I foundidentification with him.
His father did this, like,because I thought his father did
this to him.
Cassandra (10:23):
Sure.
Jessica (10:23):
You know, and so that that was, and so he was always
my guy.
Like Jesus always took me.
God was mean and God was adisciplinarian, and God didn't
like me, but Jesus liked me.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Yeah.
Jessica (10:35):
And so that's where it all started.
When I was 18, I left thechurch, I went to college.
I was like, no more organizedreligion for me, because I see
what, you know, they I see thepeople they put in charge, you
know, at because at that point Icouldn't see the goodness in my
father's preaching, you know.
I only saw what he broughthome.
(10:55):
Right.
Right.
And so so I left organizedreligion and I went completely
into my addictions, you know, incollege and in my early um
adult, young adult life, andfound I did find recovery when I
was 29, and a lot of otherstuff happened there, but I
think that gives you sort of thebackground of it.
Cassandra (11:15):
Sure, that definitely qualifies you.
Yeah, yeah.
Uh Jessica, what was yourpivotal moment?
Now you grew up um with yourparents who were who were in the
church.
Um, I don't know, and itdoesn't sound like he was a
(11:39):
closet drinker, but maybe he wasto his parishioners, like the
parishioners maybe didn't have aclue that oh no, they knew
everything.
Jessica (11:49):
Yeah, we lived in a very small town, and I think
part of the it was also the 70s,so it was a very different time
in the world.
My dad, you know, was outpartying and drinking with the
firemen and everything in thesmall town, and I think they
loved him because of it, youknow, because it endeared him to
(12:09):
them, right?
Cassandra (12:10):
Showed his human side that, you know, just because
I'm a preacher doesn't mean I'mon the straight and narrow.
So they shouldn't perhapsrelate to that.
Um, it sounds like you got to apoint in your life you had you
were just sick and tired.
Like it was what was it thatmade you say, look, I I I can't
(12:33):
do this anymore.
What was that?
What had enabled you to pivotfrom that cycle that you were
in?
Jessica (12:40):
Well, it was a uh sort of a progression of things, um,
but there were um there were twopeople who I had great respect
for who called me out.
And the first one was my oldestsister, she's six years older
than I am, and when and you knowwhat both my parents thought,
(13:03):
not that they didn't do the bestthat they could with what they
had, you know, um, but my oldersister pretty much took me on as
her own.
And she she just took meeverywhere with her.
Thank God for her.
Thank God for her.
She took me everywhere withher, she taught me manners.
I remember her like reallyparenting me, you know, growing
(13:24):
up.
And to this day, she's myclosest friend.
She's just she's the best.
And but she came to me about ayear before I got in recovery.
Uh we had a get together and Iwas out of control with my
drinking.
Yeah.
And she came to me at the nextmorning and she said, Um, she
(13:45):
called me out and she said, youknow, your drinking really
scared me last night.
She said, Um, I am not gonnawatch you do to your life what
dad did to our family.
I'm not gonna watch it, notgonna sit by and watch it.
And she left.
Like she didn't tell me what Ihad to do, she didn't tell me I
had to do this or I had to dothat.
She just said, I'm not gonnawatch this anymore.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Wow.
Jessica (14:09):
Left.
And I this is where my crazyego, uh, I mean, this is where
the addiction is just so harshbecause in my head, this is what
I thought, I'll show her.
I'm not an alcoholic like heis.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Right.
Jessica (14:27):
And because how dare she, you know, compare me to my
father.
Um, and so I went to acounselor and I start, I
thought, I'm gonna go tocounseling and I'll stop
drinking so much in front ofher.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Yeah, right.
Jessica (14:42):
But what happened was then I was already bad in my
food addiction.
My food addiction was was onein which like my weight would go
up probably like about 50pounds, then I'd lose 50, and
then I'd gain 75, and then I'dlose, you know, like that.
Yeah.
Um, and I was, but I was Ididn't realize that I was
getting to a place where Icouldn't lose weight anymore.
(15:04):
Like I couldn't even put two orthree days of a diet together
anymore.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Oh no.
Jessica (15:08):
And so when I put the booze down a little bit, I
picked up the food even more.
And in that year, I probablygained like 75 pounds in that
one year from the time she saidthat until I got into recovery.
And the reason I went torecovery was because this
counselor that I started to see,I really liked her a lot.
(15:30):
And she is that your puppy,it's Matt.
Unless there's no mat.
It's okay.
Um, I'm so sorry.
I understand completely.
Um, but I um so I was going tothis counselor, and after I was
(15:50):
with her for about a year, shesaid, you know, you have a lot
of childhood issues that we needto get to the bottom of.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Yeah.
Jessica (15:58):
But until you get this food thing under control, she
said, I don't see any of ittaking because the food is in
the way.
And I said to her, What are youtalking about?
She goes, Jessica, all you evertalk about when you come in
here is how you can't stopeating.
Oh.
And I had no idea that that'swhat I was talking about all the
(16:21):
time.
You know, I would like to saythings about my family, but I
was like nonstop talking abouthow I was trying this diet and
it wouldn't work.
And so she sent me, she said,Look, I don't have any
experience with this.
But she said, I do know thatthere are places you can go
where you just put a dollar inthe basket when the basket comes
around.
I'm not talking about acommercial weight loss program,
(16:43):
but those who need it know whatI'm talking about.
Yeah.
And um, so she there happenedto be, this is a God thing, a
meeting right across the streetfrom where her office was
located.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Yeah.
Jessica (16:55):
And she pointed at the building and she said, Thursday
nights at 7:30, they meet rightthere.
And so I went because I reallyrespected this counselor.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Yeah.
Jessica (17:07):
Um, and I knew from the moment I sat in that room and I
cried through the whole meetingbecause these people were
saying exactly what I was doingwith food, but they were saying
it out loud with no shame andactually joy in their faces
because they were recovering,they were recovering from it.
(17:29):
Okay, and and I knew it wasexactly where I needed to be.
Cassandra (17:35):
So this was for food addiction, not alcohol.
Jessica (17:38):
I went in first for food, yes.
Cassandra (17:40):
Okay, all right, okay, and and did so it evolved
into alcohol of individuals thatwere in that space, were they
all addicted to food or justthat had an addiction?
Jessica (17:52):
Well, it was interesting because again, the
people in that first room wereall food, food in recovery for
food.
And the woman I asked to helpme in the beginning, um, she
said to me, she gave me a foodplan and she said, take this to
your doctor and make sure it'sokay for your body type.
She's like, because I'm not adietitian or anything, this is
just what I receive.
(18:14):
And she said, and just so youknow, there's no drinking on
this food plan.
You can't drink any alcoholbecause they've determined that
sugar is the addictivesubstance, yeah, and there's
sugar in alcohol.
Yeah, and so I said this iswhat I said.
See, still very cocky at thispoint.
I said to her, Well, I don'thave a problem with alcohol, so
(18:34):
that's fine, right?
Within a year, she was sendingme to an addictions counselor
because she she was this womanwas also in the other program
okay, and for alcoholics, andshe knew just from talking to
me, even though I wasn'tdrinking that I had all the
(18:56):
attitudes and behaviors.
And so she sent me to this guy,and that's where the counseling
(19:25):
took off, and I started workingthe other program as well.
Cassandra (19:29):
Oh, wow.
So with that other counselor,um was he counseling?
Did he talk about God?
Did he talk about Jesus?
Like, what do you think helpedyou through this journey as you
look back on things?
Jessica (19:49):
He was that that counselor was I would say the
closest thing, uh, the closestspirit in a person that I've
ever met that is closest to God.
Um very accepting, loving, alsovery truthful and stern.
(20:15):
He wasn't gonna take any of mycrap, you know.
Um, he was gonna tell me thetruth.
He wasn't gonna co-sign any ofmy bull, you know.
Um, and he, but he never likehe would occasionally, in fact,
I still have a um part of myproblems were financial.
Like I was in a lot of debt.
(20:36):
And I talked to him about thatas well.
And he gave me a little, he hada post-it note and he wrote on
it for where your treasure is,there your heart will be also.
And he put the verse.
I think it's Matthew, I forgetexactly which, but I still have
it taped in my wallet.
Um, you know, like so everyonce in a while he'd give you a
little verse, but he neverpushed any of his own beliefs on
(21:00):
his clients, but he was verymuch like at the end of um we
had these treatment weekendswhere the entire weekend we
would go and stay overnight andgo through the work.
You know, it was very intensetherapeutic work.
And on the Sunday morningbefore we left, the counselors
would come out with buckets ofwater and they would they
(21:21):
wouldn't they wouldn't have ustake our feet or shoes off, but
they would wash our hands.
And it was it was you know, avery symbolic, yes, very
symbolic um thing.
And so I think he he was thefirst man for real that I was
able to trust and really um Iremember him saying, Do you
(21:45):
watch the show The Chosen?
Speaker 1 (21:48):
Yeah, I've heard of it though.
Jessica (21:49):
Okay, well, it's phenomenal.
I highly recommend it.
Okay in the show, anytime I'venoticed Jesus is talking to a
woman, usually she looks downbecause that timing, you know,
that culture back then, lookdirectly at a man.
And the character Jesus alwayssays to the women, he'll say,
(22:09):
Look up, look up, you know,because he wants to see their
face when he's talking to them.
Long before that show ever, andthat gives me chills right now,
telling you that, because longbefore I ever saw that show,
before I was willing to stepback into, you know, seeking God
and everything, yeah.
I remember not being able toeven look at the other women in
(22:32):
my women's therapy group becauseI was so ashamed of my behavior
and everything.
And I'll never forget the firsttime I looked up, Steve
actually got up out of his chairand came over and kneeled down
so he was face to face with me.
Is that the guy with counselor?
Steve.
Yes, that was the counselor,and he and I heard him say,
(22:56):
Jessica, look up.
Oh and I just looked up at him,and and he and it took me a
while, you know.
He goes, Nobody in here, nobodyin here is judging you.
Look around at the faces ofthese women, they love you, they
know you, they've been you,they are you, and I am here to
(23:18):
tell you nobody is judging you.
And it I get teary, like rightnow, I'm a little teary telling
you this because like I said, hewas the first man that I could
really look eye to eye and andand be honest about who I was.
Cassandra (23:35):
Okay, so all the testing, you know, they there's
a saying that says, no tests, notestimony, you know.
So out of all of the testing,um what made you decide to get
in the work that you're in?
Because all of that stuff, youknow, it is still a work in
(23:58):
process.
I mean, it's it's it's anongoing thing.
And it sounds like thataddiction, you were in your way,
you know.
Um, is your way in your way?
How how what was it?
And you talk about dying toself, you talk about having a
relationship with God.
How did all of that help youget out of your way?
Jessica (24:23):
Well, you know what?
Jesus is awesome.
Okay, let me just say, Jesus isawesome because about six years
before I got into recovery,somewhere around six or seven
years before, I had an encounterwith Jesus, a literal personal
encounter with Jesus, and I ranaway from him.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Yeah.
Jessica (24:45):
Okay.
Um, and it was the biggestregret, like he literally was
there.
I was crying out to God, and Iknow he was there, but I didn't
look at him, and instead I ranback into the party that I was
because I was outside when thishappened.
And um those six years from thetime that happened until the
(25:09):
time I got into recovery, and Iwould even say, like maybe even
the first year of recovery, um,that was weeping and gnashing of
teeth.
Like that was literal hell onearth.
I mean, everything that he saysabout his second coming um in
regards to what's going tohappen to those who turn away
from him, that happened to meduring the that time.
(25:32):
I was isolated.
It was horrible.
And when I got into recoveryand started to the reason the
book is called higher powered isbecause in the rooms of
recovery, that's the term thatthey use, higher power, because
they don't want anybody to haveto believe anything, you know,
(25:53):
because a lot of people havebeen harmed by the church in one
way or another.
And so they just want people torecognize look, we're all here
because we're addicts, it's theonly reason we're here, right?
You've got to accept andsurrender to the fact, though,
that this is not going to workfor you unless you have a higher
(26:13):
power.
This cannot be coming from you,it's gotta come from a
spiritual solution, right?
Yeah, and so but what happenedto me is when that happened, I
when that happened with Jesus, Ilike put it out of my brain
because I was I was so ashamedof myself for running away that
I just turned it off like itnever happened.
(26:35):
But what happened in earlyrecovery is I started seeking,
seeking, seeking, seeking.
I was reading books, I mean, Iwas devouring books on Jesus and
spirituality, and and then Imet the chaplain where I worked,
and he and I would go to lunchand we'd be talking like I would
just talk to him, and he wasacting, he was actually the
(26:55):
first man of the cloth that Ifelt I could trust.
And we talked and talked andtalked.
I mean, until finally I said tohim, I think I want to go to
seminary, which is crazy becauseI don't want to be a minister,
I just feel like I can't, right?
Uh-huh.
Yeah, like I just want to learnthis, you know.
You were thirsty.
And so I so I did.
(27:17):
I went, I he he encouraged me.
He's like, Jessica, if that'swhat you feel called to do, then
do it.
And while I was sitting in aclass in my second class in
seminary, I had the memory.
I was sitting in intro to NewTestament, yeah, and we were
talking about Revelation, thebook of Revelation, and I was
thinking about Jesus' secondcoming, and I and I thought, I
(27:39):
wonder if, since everything thathe says we talk about is
metaphorical or symbolic, youknow, the way he shares parables
and all that stuff, like maybehe was being metaphorical about
his second coming.
Like maybe he meant it wasgonna be personal.
And then I had when I had thatoriginal thought, I remembered
(28:02):
him showing up outside thatparty.
And I was and I was like, Oh mygod, like it hit me, he did
come and I did run away.
And look what happened.
Cassandra (28:15):
Wow, what a revelation!
Jessica (28:18):
And that's where it all sort of you know came together
and started, and and I it's allGod, Cassandra.
It's all God because he justkept giving me the pieces that I
could accept in the moment.
Cassandra (28:34):
Well, look, what about um you talked about a
personal relationship?
You sound like you had apersonal relationship when you
left that party.
That the the dots startconnecting later on in life.
How do you how does you howdoes one get a personal
relationship?
What does a personalrelationship with Jesus?
(28:56):
Because I hear that a lot.
I'm not religious.
I the key is having a personalrelationship.
How does one acquire that?
Jessica (29:07):
Um, well, you know what?
I think um for me anyway, the Ithe big identifier when I was
growing up, which I alreadymentioned, was really kind of
like a perverse way of lookingat the relationship between God
and Jesus.
Because, you know, now that I'myou know a grown woman and I've
(29:28):
I you know experience seminaryand everything, I understand
that God was not punishingJesus.
I understand now that God isJesus and He did this for us
because He loves us, like we getthat now, but this is the
personal part of it.
That is what God knew I couldunderstand in that moment, and
(29:50):
so He used it to keep meconnected, okay, and so all
those years, like even um uh doyou remember the movie The
Passion of the Christ?
When that came out, I was aboutfive years clean.
And I remember I went to seethat with a friend, and there's
(30:13):
a scene in that movie where umyou see the whole scene is from
Mary Magdalene's point of view,and she's down on the ground in
the dirt, and she sees all theserocks dropping.
And then she looks up and shesees Jesus, and he has his hand
outstretched to her, and then hepicks her up off the ground.
(30:33):
I wrote Mel Gibson a letter andI said to him, If you do
nothing for the rest of yourlife, the way you filmed that
scene, yeah, you were speakingdirectly to my heart.
Because that was what happenedto me.
And you know, Jesus picked meup off the ground and he said,
(30:55):
please follow me, and it's gonnaget better, I promise.
Like I knew in that moment, andso that's what I mean when I
say personal.
Like he just kept coming to me.
He, you know, when he knew Icouldn't look at him, he gave me
all these people in recoverywho had experienced life the way
(31:16):
I had experienced it.
Yeah, and they were recoveringfrom it.
Yeah, they may not have beenChrist followers.
I don't even know for some ofthem, but I know he used them.
Sure.
You know, I know he used themto speak to me.
Yeah, so he came to you as youwere.
Exactly, exactly.
And he keeps doing it, like hekeeps, you know, as I'm like
(31:37):
then he like after I getcomfortable with Steve, the
first man that I can trust,right?
He then presents me with thechaplain.
Yeah, you know, and it's like Iprobably couldn't have accepted
him prior to meeting Steve, youknow, and it just all like in
hindsight, it all makes reallygreat sense.
You know, but when I'm goingthrough it, I'm kind of like,
(32:00):
why, you know, on a rollercoaster.
Cassandra (32:02):
Oh, that's awesome.
Um, because you know, uh, asthis podcast is about, is your
way in your way?
And there are a lot oflisteners, there are certain
things that they'd like to do.
Many of them could have beenaddicted or know someone that
has.
And then, you know, and I hearpeople say, Well, that's that's
(32:23):
my fate, you know, I grew uplike that, and you know, blaming
someone else not knowing thatwhat you need is inside.
And as you indicated, that, youknow, for you and many of my
listeners, even for me, if itwere not for God, I always say,
Where would I be?
And then I then I say, I knowwhere I'd be.
(32:44):
I wouldn't be at thisparticular place right here.
And I love the fact that it'sall about is your way in your
way?
If you don't want that to be inyour way, you die to self.
Okay.
And I want you to talk aboutwhat that means because actually
I read that in your in theintroductory.
Right, die to self.
(33:06):
What does that mean?
Jessica (33:09):
That means, um, you know, I'll I'll take it to one
thing you just said because Iwas a professional victim for a
long time.
You know, um, you would drinkthe way I drink if you had my
father too.
Yeah.
You know, you, you know, andthat kind of behavior, you know.
And thankfully, in earlyrecovery, I met a woman who was
(33:31):
very truthful with me about whatshe saw in me.
It wasn't always easy toaccept.
Sure.
But one of the things that shesaid to me about my victimhood
and my martyrdom, you know, shesaid, you know, Jessica, she
said, here's how I look at it.
You're a victim until you're18.
(33:52):
Okay, because now you're anadult.
Exactly.
Once you're 18, you're avolunteer.
Like, so stop showing up andvolunteering for it.
If you don't want to be avictim anymore, then don't be a
victim anymore.
Right.
And I, you know, she took, shelike popped the error out of my
balloon of blaming other people.
(34:14):
She was basically saying to me,take responsibility for your
life.
unknown (34:18):
Right.
Jessica (34:19):
You know, you're the one, you're the only one who can
change you.
You know, you have to be theone who takes the steps.
You can't wait for your dad toget sober in order to have a
happy life, because then you'rerelying on him, and people will
always disappoint you.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, the only one who's notgoing to disappoint me is God.
(34:39):
Only one.
And so so what I learned andwhat I've learned over the
years, and I actually haveseveral chapters in the book
where I talk about dying to adifferent part of myself.
Because it's not a for me, it'snot a once and done thing.
It's it's you know, likebecause new things keep getting
(35:00):
revealed.
You know, I keep seeing likefirst it first it was the food
and the alcohol, right?
I had to put those things down.
And believe me, when you'veused them for 29 years, to it is
hard.
But I can tell you that it'sbeen 25 years since I've had
sugar at all.
Cassandra (35:18):
Oh, wow.
Jessica (35:20):
I mean, other than in in a piece of fruit, sure, you
know, or in a vegetable.
I I don't like sugar.
And if you'd have told me thatwas possible when I first
started, I would have said,You're nuts.
There's no way.
You know, but here I am, youknow, and so so that was the
first thing.
But then it becomes I have todie to my selfishness, I have to
(35:42):
die to my judgment of others.
I have to just so all thelittle pieces of me, I always
think of them as barnacles.
I'm a boat and I'm sailingthrough the water.
And the more barnacles I haveon me, the slower I'm gonna
sail, right?
And it's gonna hold me back andI'm gonna get stuck on stuff.
So I've got to chip thosebarnacles off.
And with each one of those, I Ilove in in the book, one of my
(36:06):
chapters is called The Death ofPerfect Knowledge, Jessica.
Because I spent so much timewhile I was in seminary.
This this came in my last yearof seminary when I recognized
that everything I had justlearned doesn't mean diddly
squat when it comes to me andJesus sitting down together.
(36:30):
Okay, you know, and yes, it'swonderful to learn all that.
And I love that I know it and Ikeep going.
I love to study, I'm a lifelonglearner, right?
Yeah.
I'm still in the books, youknow.
But when it's me face to facewith Jesus, he doesn't give a
crap if I know the order of thebooks in the Bible.
(36:51):
I really don't think he does.
Right.
Cassandra (36:54):
So tell him listens.
What does he give a crap aboutif it's not that?
Jessica (37:00):
He gave he cares about my heart.
He cares about, you know, Ithink he I I picture me and
Jesus sitting on the beachlooking at the water together
and just talking and justtalking about my life, talking
about what he did for me.
He cares about, you know, whatdo I think of my neighbor?
(37:20):
What do I think, you know, whatam I doing for the people
around me?
What am I doing?
Because I can't save the world,right?
I don't have that power.
I can't I can vote for apresident, but I can't make a
president a president, right?
But what can I do your partnerof the world?
You know, and for me, sometimesthat's just praying for people,
(37:42):
yeah.
You know, because some peopledon't want to hear the truth,
that's right, but I can pray forthem.
Cassandra (37:48):
Absolutely, yeah, absolutely.
It's kind of like as Jesussays, pick up your cross and
follow me.
Yes, yeah, do what he does.
Jessica (37:58):
Exactly.
What did he do?
And that's the thing thatdrives me crazy.
You know, when I hear peopletalk about like, yes, Jesus was
all about peace, he was alsoabout turning over the tables in
the temple when people weremessing with God.
Cassandra (38:13):
Yes, he did.
Jessica (38:14):
So, you know, he it wasn't like he was sitting back
and letting people walk all overhim, right?
You know, he was being honestabout what he saw and he didn't
like it.
So there are times when I feellike I do need to say things
outright that some people don'twant to hear, you know.
But exactly that's a part offollowing him.
Cassandra (38:34):
Well, that's great because all that you said, you
have to have a personalrelationship.
I mean, sitting on the beach, Imean, you wouldn't sit on the
beach with somebody you don'tknow, right?
So, you know, it's it's allpersonal.
Talk about your neighbors, youknow, um, because your secret is
safe with him because he knowswhat your secret is.
And in you, you know, we wetalk about um dying to self, and
(39:00):
you talked about um no longerjudging yourself or judging
others, uh, because God saysthat not to judge others,
because then you'll be judged,right?
And so it sounds like, and formy listeners, to the the things
that they want to do, it'scertain things that you knew
(39:22):
that God was leading and guidingyou to seminary, even even your
uh what you went through as aas a young person.
Look what he did, you know.
Um, even Paul, for those whoread the Bible, know half of it
is about him in jail, right?
I mean, just think about thethings that he did.
(39:42):
He was a mascot, he wascrucified, he was he was oh my
gosh, he was all against Jesus,but he had a personal moment
when he fell off that horse andgot blind, right?
Um so um I wanted us to talkabout a minute about um
(40:03):
eschatology, which is likedeath, judgment, and the final
destiny of the soul andhumankind.
So you studied that as well.
Jessica (40:12):
Yeah, what happened was um eschatology is just the you
break down the the etymology ofthe word and it's and it's the
study of the end times.
So it's a big word for a bigidea, I guess you could say.
Um, and there are intheological circles, there's a
(40:32):
lot of different ideas aboutwhat that means, like what did
the end times mean?
Um, but what people are mostfamiliar with is is what's
called apocalyptic eschatology,which would be the book of
Revelation.
Like it's a it's a prophecyabout the future.
This is what's gonna happen,and it's gonna be a complete
transformation of everythingthat you think you know.
(40:54):
Okay.
And so um I when that's why itwasn't weird to me when this
idea came to me for a personaleschatology to be also a thing
when I was sitting in the classwhere we were discussing
revelation, because it was likeit was just right here, you
know, and then I was I wasthinking and and and I remember
(41:18):
that.
And when I went to theprofessor and I said, you know,
what about this idea?
You know, like what about if itwas just and he suggested that
I um I do just an individualstudy first on eschatology and
learn all the different formsthat are accepted and uh among
(41:38):
academic circles and that sortsort of thing.
And so I did that with him, andthen when I was about to write
my thesis, because I yeah, I wasdefinitely gonna go for it.
I was I was gonna go for it andI was gonna, and I said to him
when we were done, I want you tobe my advisor for my thesis.
Oh and then he left the nextyear.
He got a new job and he left.
(42:00):
And before he left, he came tome and he said, Look, I know you
wanted to write your thesiswith me, but I have already
talked to, and then he named theprofessor that he talked to,
which I have never had for aclass, but he was also the dean
of the seminary, and I wasfreaking out that he already
(42:22):
talked to him about me becausethere's this like crazy smart
guy, right?
And he said, and he's he wouldlove to work, I think he would
love to work with you on thisbecause it's a fascinating idea.
And what happened in in thattime when I was working with him
on that thesis, which is wherethe book comes from, um I he he
(42:46):
steered me towards um theapostle Paul, uh, the story of
Lazarus, uh, the raising ofLazarus, and Nicodemus.
And we studied those together,and I wrote, and they're all in
the book, Higher Powered,because I used a lot of what I
wrote um for my thesis.
(43:08):
I used in this book.
And it's basically what happensto a person during their
personal eschatology is theywere this way, okay?
They were right here, they werethis way, and they were moving
along, and right about here theymet Jesus, okay, right?
And now they're this way, youknow, and sometimes it takes
(43:29):
longer for some people, right?
Sometimes people go rightthere, you know, like but for me
it was very uh sort ofawakening over time
transformation type thing, andso I use those three stories
from the Bible, and then I weavemy own uh personal eschatology
through through all of that andthe dying of myself as I'm going
(43:54):
along with him.
Cassandra (43:55):
Yeah.
Wow, we gotta get that book.
Sounds amazing.
You know, um, Jessica, I couldtalk to you all day, but I I
would love for you to give aword to my listeners who are
really struggling, who arestuck, they know there's
something else that they shouldbe doing, but they cannot.
(44:16):
Um, they're looking, even nowthat you've spoken, some of them
probably are looking to exploreand deepen their relationship
with God.
What would you encourage themto do?
Give them some spiritualdirection.
Jessica (44:34):
Well, you know what?
I would say that if you want apersonal relationship with
Jesus, get personal with him.
You know, sit down and uh tellhim what you're really feeling
because he already knows.
But you know, I I really thinkhe wants to hear it from us.
(44:57):
I think that you know, we thinkwe have to go to him in a
certain way, you know, we thinkwe have to pray the right way,
or you know, say the rightwords, or I found that the best
prayers um or the prayers Iwould say that gave me the most
relief that have come out of mehave been ones that were real
(45:20):
short, like, could you just helpme?
Because I don't even know whatI need right now.
Yeah, you know, and and he hedoes, he knows exactly what I
need.
You know, and when I sit thereand I give him a laundry list of
things, God, give me courage,give me this, give me that.
Well, maybe I don't need thosethings.
Maybe right now, all I need isan openness.
(45:43):
Maybe I need to remove, youknow, when the scales fall from
Paul's eyes, yeah, maybe thescales need to fall from my
eyes.
Yeah, yeah.
You know, and and only he knowsthat.
So I would say if you'restruggling and you want a
personal relationship with him,get honest with him.
Write him a letter that you'renever gonna send, you know, or I
(46:07):
I mean, I used to do that allthe time in early recovery, and
I would yell at God.
I I I had letters that werelike the paper was ripped
because I was leaning so hard onthe paper because I was so
angry.
You know, but that's you gottaget real.
You gotta get real and stoptrying to do it right, just do
it.
Cassandra (46:27):
I love that.
I love that, Jessica.
Thank you.
Please tell my listeners howthey can get first of all.
You have some beautiful blogs.
I would encourage my listenersto read your blogs.
Um, the psalm of my heart forthe month of July, I just
thought was so special and so soprecious.
(46:50):
So tell them how they can getin touch with you.
Jessica (46:56):
Anything you want to find out about me, you can do
through my website.
It's just uh my name with mymiddle initial, jessica
lmorris.com.
And everything, my books are onthere, spiritual direction
information is there.
There's a contact form, my blogis there if you want to follow
it.
Um so yeah, everything you needis right there.
Cassandra (47:16):
All right.
Okay, okay.
Well, one of the things I sharewith my listeners as I'm
signing off, Jessica, I want tothank you for your wisdom, your
insight, and just what you'vebeen through and your openness
about it for individuals to seethat nothing's too hard for God.
If if you're stuck or you knowit's something you want to do,
(47:39):
like like like I do, I seek him.
I I always one of my prayerswas help me Jesus.
You know, I would just justseek him.
And um I I just, you know,again, thank you for your
openness because that awarenessand being open sometimes is
really half the battle.
Because a lot of people realprivate, you don't tell at all,
(48:02):
but you tell enough to seepeople that that you're human
and and you've gone throughthings, but look at you now.
So I say to you, thank you.
I say to my listeners, Godbless you, and bye for now.
Again, thank you very much.
Jessica (48:18):
Thank you, Cassandra.
God bless.
Cassandra (48:21):
Yes.
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