January 1, 2026 • 29 mins
This week, we welcome Ben Higgins back to the show—entrepreneur, author, and former star of The Bachelor who has turned public fame into a platform for authentic connection. Ben shares why true connection can’t be found through screens or status, but through honest conversation and shared life with others.
Later in the episode, we’ll hear from Nashville singer-songwriter Jamie MacDonald. From growing up in a home where singing wasn’t allowed to standing on stages sharing songs of hope, Jamie’s story is a powerful reminder that some voices are too full of light to stay silent.
Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:
Past interview: Ali Gilkeson
Upcoming interview: Jordan Smith
Jesus Listens: Prayers for Every Season
Interview Quotes:
“There’s still this piece of our heart that screams out to sit beside somebody else, to look somebody else in the eye, to ask them the questions that actually matter. I think we’re seeing that even when everything’s handed to us, there’s still something missing, which is the connection to humans face-to-face.” - Ben Higgins
“I think if you want to really get to know somebody, if you really want for somebody to get to know you, you have to let them see the stop moments of your life. You have to be able to sit with them in their roughest seasons and their most joyous seasons and celebrate when joy is at the table and also mourn with them when maybe mourning is necessary.” - Ben Higgins
“Life doesn’t give us the gift of hiding out when pain is at the forefront of our experience. I think we’ve all learned that when pain is a part of our life, sitting alone in that is not the most healing. It is getting with people who can relate. It is speaking to professionals who can process. It is getting around friendships who can love on you and getting around family who can give you a hug.” - Ben Higgins
“When divisiveness is no longer the common thread amongst us as humans, I think we’re going to really look back on a time where we maybe burnt too many bridges and be embarrassed by that. I want to hopefully give people the warning to not jump too quickly into cutting everybody out that they don’t agree with.” - Ben Higgins
“Being in the public eye has taught me that the more vulnerable I become and the more outspoken I become on the things that are tough in my life, the more connected I feel to others because there’s other people dealing with it also.” - Ben Higgins
“I knew I felt good singing. It’s the one thing that brought me the most joy throughout some of my lonely, hardest times when I was young. It brought me happiness and peace. And it was also a way to encounter God’s presence.” - Jamie MacDonald
“There were just a lot of miracles that [God] did in my life to get me out of that place, and it’s been a slow, steady climb—a lot of behind the scenes work that He’s done in my heart to heal me and all the identity is
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Life audio find inspiration as close as your phone. Download
the Jesus Calling app and get started today for free.
Look for the Jesus Calling app in both the Apple
and Google Play stores.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
I think it's the one calling that we sometimes forget
as humans, is we are called to support well each other.
And I also think we have a God of support,
a God that loves and that cares, and that when
we're at our lowest, doesn't want us to live at
our lowest, that wants to lift us up from the
ashes and say go and be fruitful, and be joyful,
(00:45):
and go and share with others.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Welcome to the Jesus Calling Podcast. This week, we welcome
Ben Higgins back to the show. Entrepreneur, author, and former
star of the Bachelor who has turned public fame into
a platform for authentic connection. Ben shares why true connection
can't be found through screens or status, but through honest
conversation and shared life with others. Later in the episode,
we'll hear from Nashville singer songwriter Jamie McDonald from growing
(01:12):
up in a home where singing wasn't allowed, to standing
on stage is sharing songs of hope. Jamie's story is
a powerful reminder that some voices are too full of
light to stay silent. Let's begin with Ben's story.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Well, my name is Ben Higgins, live in Denver, Colorado
with my wonderful wife and seven month old baby girl,
Wide Nona, and our dog Whalen. People probably best know
me from my time on the Bachelor, but since then
I've been running a coffee company called Generous Coffee for
the last eight years, and then also am the author
(01:53):
of a lone and plain site. It's a book I'm
connecting with others. It's about hopefully learning the struggles that
others go through, and also the desire for us to
connect with each other. My idea of love and connection
(02:14):
has grown and shifted and is shifting all the time.
But there's a few things for me that have stayed
concrete and have stayed the whole time. One is I'm
continually reminded that we are not made to do this
life alone.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
We are not.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Designed or created or intentioned to do life alone. Seven
months ago, when Winona was born, I think one of
the key factors for me was I and I think
my wife as well, wanted to surround her with people
who we knew would love her, who would care for
her like we do, and then also help grow her
(02:54):
because as a parent, I think you quickly realized, yes,
you can do a lot, and you are very important
in this child's life, but you also need the support
of others and their influences. And so I think here
the biggest thing that shifted for me is really my
desire to reach out, to be intentioned with people who
(03:16):
I trust and who I love and who I know
love us, and ask them for help, and clearly ask
them for help, because their help is needed right now
more than ever. When I originally came off the lode,
in plain sight, felt like this whole new hyperconnectivity social
media boom was fairly still new. It doesn't feel as
(03:38):
new anymore. It feels very entrenched into so many of
our lives. And now it's only increasing with the uses
of AI and the ability to speak to a computer
and ask them questions about their day and they ask
you questions about your day, and to almost feel like
you have a friendship with a robot on the other side,
I think it's only speeding up, and yet the rates
for loneliness and the symptoms of loneliness and isolation are
(04:02):
more than ever. I can FaceTime my family that's thousand
miles away and show them when he's playing, or talk
to them about our day. And that's amazing, and it
is a resource that I love and that I do
think helps build a bond. However, I think we're seeing
that even with all that access, there's still this piece
of our heart that screams out to sit beside somebody else,
(04:23):
to look somebody else in the eye, to ask them
the questions that actually matter, not just about the sporting
event and not just about their workday, but ask them
about their pains and their sorrows and their joys and
their successes, and sit and listen in those moments. I
think we're seeing that even when everything's handed to us,
there's still something missing. And I think that thing missing
(04:45):
is the thing we've pushed away, which is the connection
to humans face to face. You know, one of the
truth to social media today is the ability to start
and stop. You can start and stop at any moment.
You can retake twenty times to make sure that your
smile looks good, that your one eye is not going lazy,
(05:09):
that your hair is done, that you didn't stumble or
fumble over your words, that you spoke with a level
of confidence. The ability to start and stop is something
that is a truth to social media. It's not a
truth to our real life. And I think if you
want to really get to know somebody, if you really
want for somebody to get to know you, you have to
(05:29):
let them see the stop moments of your life. You
have to be able to sit with them in their
roughest seasons and also their most joyous seasons, and celebrate
when joy is at the table, and also mourn with
them when maybe mourning is necessary. Life doesn't give us
(05:51):
the gift of hiding out when pain is at the
forefront of our experience. I think we've all learned when
pain is a part of our life, sitting alone in
that is not the most healing. It is getting with
people who can relate. It is speaking to professionals who
can process. It is getting around friendships who can love
(06:13):
on you, getting around family who can give you a hug.
I think people still feel lonely. I think they still
feel isolated. I think those things are still true. But
now when I speak about human connection, divisiveness is a
word that's thrown in there, and I agree. I think
we are divisive I think people are having a hard
(06:34):
time figuring out where to put what maybe tribe they're
a part of, what tribe they're not a part of,
or what sides to pick on certain topics, And I
think it gets chaotic and confusing, and then there's anger
because I think we're all frustrated. I think we're frustrated
because there's a lack of knowledge. I think we're frustrated
because there's a lack of listening. I think we're frustrated
(06:56):
because the world isn't working out, and maybe the way
as young children we were taught it was going to
work out, and we're all starting to come face to
face with that. And we're divisive because in a sense,
we're panicked the pendulum swings right now. We feel like
we're in this very divisive time. I'm hopeful to believe
and maybe just naively optimistic to believe that the pendulum
(07:18):
will swing back to where we can actually converse again
and where we can actually argue again in a healthy
way and come do some type of agreements and some
type of understandings. And I look at that future hope,
and I think of how detrimental it's going to be
and how in a sense embarrassing. It's going to be
(07:40):
if we burn every relationship that didn't fully agree with
our boxes right now because it feels like the popular
thing to do and the common thing to do. I
want to keep doors open for ten years from now
to be able to still sit beside somebody and say, goodness, gracious,
we disagree on a lot, don't we, but let's chat
(08:01):
about it. Let me learn from you. Why do you
feel so strongly when divisiveness is no longer the common
thread amongst us as humans. I think we're gonna really
look back on a time where we maybe burnt too
many bridges and be embarrassed by that. And I want
to hopefully give people the warning to not jump too
quickly into cutting everybody out that they don't agree with
(08:25):
being the public GUYE taught me that the more vulnerable
I become and the more outspoken I become on the
things that are tough in my life, the more connected
I feel to others because there's other people dealing with it. Also.
It might not be in the same way with having
a following and being on TV for a short period
of time, but people have similar experiences. For me, prayer
(08:48):
has always been the tool that's been most helpful. It
is the moments of deep silence with God, of allowing
God to speak through me and into me, and praying
to God with all of my pains and my sorrows
that the most healing has come for me. Because I
believe there is a God that exists. I believe that
is a God that loves, and that it is active
and that is moving and groven in this world at
(09:10):
all times in all places. Jesus Calling has been a
part of my life for a long time growing up
in the church. The message of Jesus Calling, the resources
that Jesus Calling puts out into the world have always
been a function of the household that I grew up in.
I remember exactly where I was at for my first
interview with you all, and I've just done a lot
(09:31):
of interviews. It's actually what I do for a living
kind of and I remember the exact place I was at.
I was in Franklin, Tennessee, at my in law's house,
and I was so excited to talk with Jesus calling
because it's a trusted resource. I think we have a
God of support, a God that loves and that cares
and that when we're at our lowest, doesn't want us
(09:53):
to live at our lowest, that wants to lift us
up from the ashes and say, go and be fruitful.
Speaker 4 (09:59):
And go and be joyful, and.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Go and share with others. And so for me, when
I'm at my rough, I love to talk to my wife,
but I really love to sit in silence with God
and to lay it all out there and say, God,
I need you, because every time there's been words spoken
to me that have healed.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
To learn more about Ben Higgins, visit Theban Higgins dot com.
Also be sure to check out Generous Coffee at Generouscoffee
dot com and the new expanded version of his book
Alone in Plain Sight available at your favorite retailer. Stay
tuned to Jamie McDonald's story after a brief message. These
(10:41):
uncertain times bring anxiety and fear, But Jesus Listens Prayers
for Every Season gives you daily prayers of comfort with
seasonally inspired illustrations. This beautiful book includes prayers that speak
to your situation, whether it's a time of stress or strength.
Look for Jesus Listens Prayers for Every Season wherever you
buy books. Our next guest is Nashville based recording artist
(11:11):
Jamie McDonald. Growing up in a small town, in a
difficult childhood and complicated family dynamics, Jamie's journey to finding
her voice wasn't easy. Singing had always been a source
of joy and healing for her, even when circumstances tried
to silence it. Through songwriting, teaching in a women's prison,
and caring for her ailing father, Jamie's story is one
(11:31):
of resilience, hope, and the power of expressing truth through song.
Speaker 5 (11:37):
I'm Jamie McDonald and I'm a recording artist here in Nashville, Tennessee,
brand new on the Christian artist scene. So I'm having
an amazing time sharing my songs and story for the
first time. And God has really saved me out of
a lot, and I love to sing about it and
share about it. I grew up in a pretty small town.
(12:02):
My parents divorced at a young age, and so I
was kind of raised by a single mom for a
number of years, and I remembered a lot of sad,
lonely moments in my childhood where I didn't really feel
like I was able to use my voice or speak
up at all. And so around the age of twelve,
I got invited to a church camp, and that really
(12:26):
changed everything for me because they sang so much there
and I got introduced to Jesus and just the way
the counselors treated me. I just felt so special, and
for the first time, I knew that God loved me
and that he had a plan for my life.
Speaker 4 (12:40):
And so we sang a lot at camp.
Speaker 5 (12:43):
But then when I got back from camp, my stepdad's
rule for me was no singing in the house, and
so he really just wanted a quiet home and he
really loved my mom, but never really wanted kids, and
so it was really after that it was a wrestle
for me with my voice because I loved singing so much,
(13:03):
and you know, I would sing in school and sing
outside in the woods, but I would get punished for
singing at home, and so it turned into this wrestle
for me with my identity around music. What's the one
thing that brought me the most joy throughout some of
my lonely, hardest times when I was young, So I
knew I felt good singing and it brought me happiness
(13:26):
and peace, and it was also a way to encounter
God's presence. And so from camp on those songs that
I learned as a little girl. Those stayed in my memory.
So whenever i'd i'd feel lost in the world, those
songs would just come to mind and I would sing
those words.
Speaker 4 (13:44):
I'd hit rock bottom, God, can you save me?
Speaker 5 (13:48):
You know, I needed saving and I needed miracles because
I had messed up my life so bad. I couldn't
just turn around and go in a different direction. I
had no direction to go in. I didn't have a car,
I didn't have a driver's license, didn't have a job.
Speaker 4 (14:04):
You know.
Speaker 5 (14:04):
I was just really at rock bottom, and I didn't
have a high school diploma. So there was just a
lot of miracles that he did in my life to
get me out of that place. And it's been a slow,
steady climb, a lot of behind the scenes work that
he's done in my heart to heal me fan all
the identity issues that come with letting your life hit
(14:27):
the bottom. So it's been a beautiful process to just
have the Lord take his time with me. And at
the age of twenty one, I.
Speaker 4 (14:37):
Had an encounter with Jesus.
Speaker 5 (14:40):
I had been at a party and there was a
lot of people passed out on the floor. We were
actually at our house, but people were doing drugs and
I just heard a voice speak to me that said,
this is not the end of your story. I've still
got a plan for your life. And so I just
heard that loud and clear, and I just answered the call,
and I said, God, if you could get me out
(15:02):
of here, and if you could show me what that
plan is, I'd love to have a new start at life.
And so from then on, I started getting into my Bible,
and I started encountering God through just worship music and
I was watching Joyce Meyer on television and just trying
to get as much as I could. And you know,
it was like one taste of God's presence and even
(15:24):
just looking into the light, because I had been living
in such darkness that it was just that's all I wanted.
After that, I was like, God, I got to have
more of you, And you know, You've been all around
me all along, and I just never knew it.
Speaker 4 (15:37):
I was never looking. And so from then I just ran.
Speaker 5 (15:40):
As fast as I could into the presence of God
and into the body of Christ. I left Nashville for
the first time in twenty nineteen during the pandemic twenty twenty,
but I left Nashville and thought, I'm kind of done
with the music industry. I'd tried a few things and
(16:01):
just thought it was exhausting and it just wasn't for
me at the time, because I was like, man, I
really want to make sure it feels like God's the
center of all this, because I lived half of my
life getting it wrong, and I just thought, I want
to do something that really feels pleasing to the Lord
and not just a business. And I had my first
experience with Nashville felt like more of a music business opportunity.
(16:25):
And I hadn't released music in about seven years, and
so by the time I got into the women's prison,
I had prayed and asked God that you know, I'd
love to sing again, but I don't really feel strong
enough to do like the artist thing where I'm you know,
putting myself out there on the internet and just getting
(16:47):
on stages. And so I prayed and wrote in my
journal I'd love to sing in a women's prison.
Speaker 4 (16:52):
While I got a call a week later from somebody and.
Speaker 5 (16:55):
They said, hey, we got your number from this other
person and we were curious if you'd like to sing
in a Georgia prison with the choir. They're looking to
feature you and they wanted to sing some songs with you,
and I just thought.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
That was a fast answer to prayer.
Speaker 5 (17:10):
And so I show up to the prison and I
just had this powerful encounter with God again. And it
had been a while since I sang, and so it
was just God restoring my love for music through singing
in this prison choir. And we had scheduled to do
one big performance together, but it was just so special
that I said, girls, what if I came back once
(17:32):
a week and taught songwriting and just kept hanging out
with you guys. And so that kind of became my church.
And I got to see just how powerful Christian music
has been for them to just keep them afloat in
there and keep them filled with hope. I left Nashville
and I came up with this songwriting model. It was
my birthday and I was like, all right, I want
(17:53):
to write a song with fifteen people. I was like,
just to make sure nobody makes any money, and it
was just like this. We got around a campfire for
my birthday and there was kids and grandparents and all
different ages, and I was like, I want to hear everybody's.
Speaker 4 (18:07):
Thoughts on the topic of hope.
Speaker 5 (18:09):
And so we went around the circle and I just
asked each person what does hope mean to you? And
I'd write down all these beautiful phrases, and then I
took all those lines and compiled them into a song
and it worked so well, and suddenly I had all
these beautiful things that I never would have thought of.
Speaker 4 (18:26):
And half the.
Speaker 5 (18:27):
People in the circle didn't have a musical bone in
their body, but they helped write this song with me.
And so I had this epiphany, anybody's a songwriter. We
all have stories to tell. And so I took that
model into the prison and we all sat in a
big circle and.
Speaker 4 (18:42):
I said, Okay, let's think of a topic to write about.
And it was like the love of God.
Speaker 5 (18:47):
And then I go around and each person would share
what that means to them in a prison.
Speaker 4 (18:52):
I mean, the answers were so.
Speaker 5 (18:54):
Complex and so deep and so beautiful because they've all
had to wrestle so hard with finding the truth in
such a dark place.
Speaker 4 (19:01):
And so we would do that.
Speaker 5 (19:04):
Same thing, collect the thoughts, and then we would grab
instruments and find melodies, and you know, I'd play a
little something and ask them like, how does this make
you feel?
Speaker 4 (19:13):
Does this feel right? Maybe we change this chord?
Speaker 5 (19:15):
And so it was a group effort and we wrote
I think we wrote five songs together and then we
got to turn around and sing those.
Speaker 4 (19:23):
To the rest of the inmates, which was really really special.
Speaker 5 (19:27):
Singing in the prison really gave me courage again and
hope to sing, and it really gave me my why
because when they sing in there, there's no cameras, there's
no nobody putting them on you too. It's all for
the Lord, and it's all an encounter with God's presence
and a ministry to each other. And I think that's
(19:48):
what I was missing in Nashville, was just that doing
it for the love of music and the love of
each other and for the love of the Lord. And
so I think that got cemented back into me in
a really firm foundation where I'm like, I know why
I'm doing this, and I know that's.
Speaker 4 (20:07):
Never going to be confused again.
Speaker 5 (20:09):
I think where all of the best songs come from
is when you can be yourself and you're not trying
to reach a certain audience necessarily or try to be commercial,
writing to the Lord and writing for each other unlock
something for me. In twenty twenty, I reunited with my
(20:34):
dad after many years of not seeing him, and he
had a lot of mental and physical issues. He used
to be a professional boxer and so he had the
latter stages of Parkinson's and dementia when I moved in
with him in twenty twenty, and what I thought was
going to be a couple weeks long of a quarantine
(20:55):
because nobody really knew what that was at the time,
turned into me living in Georgia for four years and
becoming his primary caregiver. So that's when I laid down
the music and really just had a really special time
with my dad. And you know, he was facing the
end of his life, and so that made it really
(21:16):
really hard. There were times where he didn't know who
I was. But one special thing was I remembered all
his favorite songs from when I was a kid and
he used to play him in the car, and so
it was a lot of Michael W. Smith and Stepher
Curtis Chapman, and so I started playing in all his
old songs and that was kind of how him and
I connected, and we would sing the songs together and
(21:38):
we couldn't always have a conversation. We always sang, and
so that was really what made that time extra special.
And then he passed away at the end of twenty
twenty four, and I was with them when he took
his last breath, and it was just such a full circle,
really beautiful time that God gave us. From then, I
(21:59):
moved straight to Nashville. I gathered my prison girls, I
said goodbye to everybody, and I have packed up and
moved to Nashville and immediately signed a record deal, which
was just so the Lord. And then shortly after that,
I'm getting into writing rooms and meeting all these producers
and people in Nashville.
Speaker 4 (22:18):
Was just like, how exciting you sign a record deal,
Like your whole life is about to change.
Speaker 5 (22:22):
And I wasn't really feeling all of that because I
had just lost my dad and I was grieving and
really coming out of five years of isolation, and so
I had a lot to sing about. But it wasn't
the upbeat Christian bop. It was the heartfelt, deeper songs.
So I was processing in real time with my peers
(22:44):
and the music industry about losing my dad and about
struggling through having brokenness in a broken pass and my
family not all speaking to each other. They were just
really kind and they just said, let's write about that,
Let's dive into that. And so there was a lot
of tears and hugs and special moments writing a lot
(23:07):
of these songs that are going to be on my record.
It's the words that I really needed all through those
years looking after my dad and walking him through his
last breath. And then now it's become a tool for
other things I'm going through.
Speaker 4 (23:22):
The Bible.
Speaker 5 (23:23):
Devotionals like Jesus calling seriously have carried me throughout these years,
where like who am I again? I need the truth
daily to you know, remind me who God says I am.
It was really my first year as a believer, and
what I loved about it was it helped me understand
(23:44):
how the Lord speaks to us, and it gave it
such an approachable tone versus if you're reading the Bible
or even hearing other people talk about God. It helped
me develop my internal interpretation of his voice. He's kind
and he's loving, and he cares about little things, he
cares about big things. And have an earthly father growing up,
(24:07):
so it reframed what a father's voice would sound like
for me, and it was really really good. Well I
was getting a little emotional about that, but yeah, it's
a loving book. This formed my way that I talked
to God and the way I hear his voice. My
cousin actually just started with Jesus calling, and she's kind
of having a similar experience to me, where it's like
(24:29):
I didn't know I could talk to God like this.
So it's been really sweet to see her starting out
on her faith with that. This year, I hit my
twenty year baptism anniversary and just looking over those years,
how he's been so faithful to me. I just don't
question him anymore at all. And so no matter what
doors close or open, or where my life's headed, even
(24:52):
throughout those years where I was looking after my dad
and I was in my mid thirties and I quit
doing music for five years or for seven years, it's
like I wasn't super concerned. I just trust him with
my life story, and even if that was looking after
my dad for another five years, I was just like,
he's got it and he's not going to let me
miss what he has for me. And I think that
(25:14):
has been cemented into my heart over the last twenty
years of just walking with him and listening to his
voice and learning to trust and know his voice above
all others. Looking back on my baptism, it was the
feeling of being washed clean after years of making terrible
(25:34):
choices and struggling with my identity and carrying the weight
of shame and guilt and sin. And I was carrying
so much, and I felt like when I went under
that water, I just came out a brand new person
and I was washed clean and I felt born again.
And really, from that point on, I've never been the same.
(25:58):
God is really good at picking up the broken pieces
and making it into something beautiful.
Speaker 4 (26:04):
And I want people to know that it's never too late.
Speaker 5 (26:07):
And no matter what you've done in your life, when
you give it to Jesus and you turn to him
and you confess and you give him those things, he
even chooses to forget them. Talk to the Lord and
run toward him when your low moments. Don't run away
from God.
Speaker 4 (26:25):
Jesus listens. January tenth.
Speaker 5 (26:27):
Dear Jesus, please help me learn to appreciate difficult days,
being stimulated by the challenges I encounter, rather than becoming
distressed as I journey through rough to reign with you.
I gain confidence from knowing that together we can handle anything.
When I look back on my life, I can see
how much you have helped me through the difficult days
(26:48):
in the past. Yet I easily fall into the trap
of thinking, yes, but that was then and this is now. Instead,
I need to remember that though my circumstances change immensely,
you remain the same throughout time and eternity.
Speaker 4 (27:02):
Moreover, in you, I live and move and have my being.
Speaker 5 (27:06):
As I live close to you, aware of your loving presence,
I can go confidently through my toughest times in your
worthy name.
Speaker 4 (27:14):
Amen. To learn more.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
About Jamie MacDonald, visit Jamie McDonald music dot com and
be sure to check out her self titled debut album
wherever you get your music. If you'd like to hear
more stories about being fully known by God, check out
our interview with Ali Gilkison. Next time on the Jesus
(27:39):
Calling podcast, we'll hear from Jordan Smith, who won NBCES
The Voice in twenty fifteen. Jordan shares how he stays
rooted in faith and family through the ups and downs
of life.
Speaker 6 (27:51):
I have to be extremely intentional about keeping up my
prayer life, because I've found when I begin to lose
focus on my relationship with God, an unhappier person, I'm
not as kind as I should be. My words start
(28:12):
to become unkind, I start to worry more, I start
to give in to stress and anxiety. I start making
questionable decisions, and so I have to be extremely intentional
to remain prayerful each day.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Thanks for listening to the Jesus Calling Stories of Faith
podcast on the Life Audio Network. Every week, we'll bring
you stories from people who share their journeys of faith
and how prayer and a relationship with God transform their lives.
Be sure to follow us on Apple, Spotify, iHeart, or
wherever you listen to podcasts, and leave us a review
(28:59):
so others can be inspired weekly by these stories of faith. Finally,
you can find encouragement resources and more on the Jesus
Calling website at Jesuscalling dot com
Life audio find inspiration as close as your phone. Download
the Jesus Calling app and get started today for free.
Look for the Jesus Calling app in both the Apple
and Google Play stores.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
I think it's the one calling that we sometimes forget
as humans, is we are called to support well each other.
And I also think we have a God of support,
a God that loves and that cares, and that when
we're at our lowest, doesn't want us to live at
our lowest, that wants to lift us up from the
ashes and say go and be fruitful, and be joyful,
(00:45):
and go and share with others.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Welcome to the Jesus Calling Podcast. This week, we welcome
Ben Higgins back to the show. Entrepreneur, author, and former
star of the Bachelor who has turned public fame into
a platform for authentic connection. Ben shares why true connection
can't be found through screens or status, but through honest
conversation and shared life with others. Later in the episode,
we'll hear from Nashville singer songwriter Jamie McDonald from growing
(01:12):
up in a home where singing wasn't allowed, to standing
on stage is sharing songs of hope. Jamie's story is
a powerful reminder that some voices are too full of
light to stay silent. Let's begin with Ben's story.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Well, my name is Ben Higgins, live in Denver, Colorado
with my wonderful wife and seven month old baby girl,
Wide Nona, and our dog Whalen. People probably best know
me from my time on the Bachelor, but since then
I've been running a coffee company called Generous Coffee for
the last eight years, and then also am the author
(01:53):
of a lone and plain site. It's a book I'm
connecting with others. It's about hopefully learning the struggles that
others go through, and also the desire for us to
connect with each other. My idea of love and connection
(02:14):
has grown and shifted and is shifting all the time.
But there's a few things for me that have stayed
concrete and have stayed the whole time. One is I'm
continually reminded that we are not made to do this
life alone.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
We are not.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Designed or created or intentioned to do life alone. Seven
months ago, when Winona was born, I think one of
the key factors for me was I and I think
my wife as well, wanted to surround her with people
who we knew would love her, who would care for
her like we do, and then also help grow her
(02:54):
because as a parent, I think you quickly realized, yes,
you can do a lot, and you are very important
in this child's life, but you also need the support
of others and their influences. And so I think here
the biggest thing that shifted for me is really my
desire to reach out, to be intentioned with people who
(03:16):
I trust and who I love and who I know
love us, and ask them for help, and clearly ask
them for help, because their help is needed right now
more than ever. When I originally came off the lode,
in plain sight, felt like this whole new hyperconnectivity social
media boom was fairly still new. It doesn't feel as
(03:38):
new anymore. It feels very entrenched into so many of
our lives. And now it's only increasing with the uses
of AI and the ability to speak to a computer
and ask them questions about their day and they ask
you questions about your day, and to almost feel like
you have a friendship with a robot on the other side,
I think it's only speeding up, and yet the rates
for loneliness and the symptoms of loneliness and isolation are
(04:02):
more than ever. I can FaceTime my family that's thousand
miles away and show them when he's playing, or talk
to them about our day. And that's amazing, and it
is a resource that I love and that I do
think helps build a bond. However, I think we're seeing
that even with all that access, there's still this piece
of our heart that screams out to sit beside somebody else,
(04:23):
to look somebody else in the eye, to ask them
the questions that actually matter, not just about the sporting
event and not just about their workday, but ask them
about their pains and their sorrows and their joys and
their successes, and sit and listen in those moments. I
think we're seeing that even when everything's handed to us,
there's still something missing. And I think that thing missing
(04:45):
is the thing we've pushed away, which is the connection
to humans face to face. You know, one of the
truth to social media today is the ability to start
and stop. You can start and stop at any moment.
You can retake twenty times to make sure that your
smile looks good, that your one eye is not going lazy,
(05:09):
that your hair is done, that you didn't stumble or
fumble over your words, that you spoke with a level
of confidence. The ability to start and stop is something
that is a truth to social media. It's not a
truth to our real life. And I think if you
want to really get to know somebody, if you really
want for somebody to get to know you, you have to
(05:29):
let them see the stop moments of your life. You
have to be able to sit with them in their
roughest seasons and also their most joyous seasons, and celebrate
when joy is at the table, and also mourn with
them when maybe mourning is necessary. Life doesn't give us
(05:51):
the gift of hiding out when pain is at the
forefront of our experience. I think we've all learned when
pain is a part of our life, sitting alone in
that is not the most healing. It is getting with
people who can relate. It is speaking to professionals who
can process. It is getting around friendships who can love
(06:13):
on you, getting around family who can give you a hug.
I think people still feel lonely. I think they still
feel isolated. I think those things are still true. But
now when I speak about human connection, divisiveness is a
word that's thrown in there, and I agree. I think
we are divisive I think people are having a hard
(06:34):
time figuring out where to put what maybe tribe they're
a part of, what tribe they're not a part of,
or what sides to pick on certain topics, And I
think it gets chaotic and confusing, and then there's anger
because I think we're all frustrated. I think we're frustrated
because there's a lack of knowledge. I think we're frustrated
because there's a lack of listening. I think we're frustrated
(06:56):
because the world isn't working out, and maybe the way
as young children we were taught it was going to
work out, and we're all starting to come face to
face with that. And we're divisive because in a sense,
we're panicked the pendulum swings right now. We feel like
we're in this very divisive time. I'm hopeful to believe
and maybe just naively optimistic to believe that the pendulum
(07:18):
will swing back to where we can actually converse again
and where we can actually argue again in a healthy
way and come do some type of agreements and some
type of understandings. And I look at that future hope,
and I think of how detrimental it's going to be
and how in a sense embarrassing. It's going to be
(07:40):
if we burn every relationship that didn't fully agree with
our boxes right now because it feels like the popular
thing to do and the common thing to do. I
want to keep doors open for ten years from now
to be able to still sit beside somebody and say, goodness, gracious,
we disagree on a lot, don't we, but let's chat
(08:01):
about it. Let me learn from you. Why do you
feel so strongly when divisiveness is no longer the common
thread amongst us as humans. I think we're gonna really
look back on a time where we maybe burnt too
many bridges and be embarrassed by that. And I want
to hopefully give people the warning to not jump too
quickly into cutting everybody out that they don't agree with
(08:25):
being the public GUYE taught me that the more vulnerable
I become and the more outspoken I become on the
things that are tough in my life, the more connected
I feel to others because there's other people dealing with it. Also.
It might not be in the same way with having
a following and being on TV for a short period
of time, but people have similar experiences. For me, prayer
(08:48):
has always been the tool that's been most helpful. It
is the moments of deep silence with God, of allowing
God to speak through me and into me, and praying
to God with all of my pains and my sorrows
that the most healing has come for me. Because I
believe there is a God that exists. I believe that
is a God that loves, and that it is active
and that is moving and groven in this world at
(09:10):
all times in all places. Jesus Calling has been a
part of my life for a long time growing up
in the church. The message of Jesus Calling, the resources
that Jesus Calling puts out into the world have always
been a function of the household that I grew up in.
I remember exactly where I was at for my first
interview with you all, and I've just done a lot
(09:31):
of interviews. It's actually what I do for a living
kind of and I remember the exact place I was at.
I was in Franklin, Tennessee, at my in law's house,
and I was so excited to talk with Jesus calling
because it's a trusted resource. I think we have a
God of support, a God that loves and that cares
and that when we're at our lowest, doesn't want us
(09:53):
to live at our lowest, that wants to lift us
up from the ashes and say, go and be fruitful.
Speaker 4 (09:59):
And go and be joyful, and.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Go and share with others. And so for me, when
I'm at my rough, I love to talk to my wife,
but I really love to sit in silence with God
and to lay it all out there and say, God,
I need you, because every time there's been words spoken
to me that have healed.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
To learn more about Ben Higgins, visit Theban Higgins dot com.
Also be sure to check out Generous Coffee at Generouscoffee
dot com and the new expanded version of his book
Alone in Plain Sight available at your favorite retailer. Stay
tuned to Jamie McDonald's story after a brief message. These
(10:41):
uncertain times bring anxiety and fear, But Jesus Listens Prayers
for Every Season gives you daily prayers of comfort with
seasonally inspired illustrations. This beautiful book includes prayers that speak
to your situation, whether it's a time of stress or strength.
Look for Jesus Listens Prayers for Every Season wherever you
buy books. Our next guest is Nashville based recording artist
(11:11):
Jamie McDonald. Growing up in a small town, in a
difficult childhood and complicated family dynamics, Jamie's journey to finding
her voice wasn't easy. Singing had always been a source
of joy and healing for her, even when circumstances tried
to silence it. Through songwriting, teaching in a women's prison,
and caring for her ailing father, Jamie's story is one
(11:31):
of resilience, hope, and the power of expressing truth through song.
Speaker 5 (11:37):
I'm Jamie McDonald and I'm a recording artist here in Nashville, Tennessee,
brand new on the Christian artist scene. So I'm having
an amazing time sharing my songs and story for the
first time. And God has really saved me out of
a lot, and I love to sing about it and
share about it. I grew up in a pretty small town.
(12:02):
My parents divorced at a young age, and so I
was kind of raised by a single mom for a
number of years, and I remembered a lot of sad,
lonely moments in my childhood where I didn't really feel
like I was able to use my voice or speak
up at all. And so around the age of twelve,
I got invited to a church camp, and that really
(12:26):
changed everything for me because they sang so much there
and I got introduced to Jesus and just the way
the counselors treated me. I just felt so special, and
for the first time, I knew that God loved me
and that he had a plan for my life.
Speaker 4 (12:40):
And so we sang a lot at camp.
Speaker 5 (12:43):
But then when I got back from camp, my stepdad's
rule for me was no singing in the house, and
so he really just wanted a quiet home and he
really loved my mom, but never really wanted kids, and
so it was really after that it was a wrestle
for me with my voice because I loved singing so much,
(13:03):
and you know, I would sing in school and sing
outside in the woods, but I would get punished for
singing at home, and so it turned into this wrestle
for me with my identity around music. What's the one
thing that brought me the most joy throughout some of
my lonely, hardest times when I was young, So I
knew I felt good singing and it brought me happiness
(13:26):
and peace, and it was also a way to encounter
God's presence. And so from camp on those songs that
I learned as a little girl. Those stayed in my memory.
So whenever i'd i'd feel lost in the world, those
songs would just come to mind and I would sing
those words.
Speaker 4 (13:44):
I'd hit rock bottom, God, can you save me?
Speaker 5 (13:48):
You know, I needed saving and I needed miracles because
I had messed up my life so bad. I couldn't
just turn around and go in a different direction. I
had no direction to go in. I didn't have a car,
I didn't have a driver's license, didn't have a job.
Speaker 4 (14:04):
You know.
Speaker 5 (14:04):
I was just really at rock bottom, and I didn't
have a high school diploma. So there was just a
lot of miracles that he did in my life to
get me out of that place. And it's been a slow,
steady climb, a lot of behind the scenes work that
he's done in my heart to heal me fan all
the identity issues that come with letting your life hit
(14:27):
the bottom. So it's been a beautiful process to just
have the Lord take his time with me. And at
the age of twenty one, I.
Speaker 4 (14:37):
Had an encounter with Jesus.
Speaker 5 (14:40):
I had been at a party and there was a
lot of people passed out on the floor. We were
actually at our house, but people were doing drugs and
I just heard a voice speak to me that said,
this is not the end of your story. I've still
got a plan for your life. And so I just
heard that loud and clear, and I just answered the call,
and I said, God, if you could get me out
(15:02):
of here, and if you could show me what that
plan is, I'd love to have a new start at life.
And so from then on, I started getting into my Bible,
and I started encountering God through just worship music and
I was watching Joyce Meyer on television and just trying
to get as much as I could. And you know,
it was like one taste of God's presence and even
(15:24):
just looking into the light, because I had been living
in such darkness that it was just that's all I wanted.
After that, I was like, God, I got to have
more of you, And you know, You've been all around
me all along, and I just never knew it.
Speaker 4 (15:37):
I was never looking. And so from then I just ran.
Speaker 5 (15:40):
As fast as I could into the presence of God
and into the body of Christ. I left Nashville for
the first time in twenty nineteen during the pandemic twenty twenty,
but I left Nashville and thought, I'm kind of done
with the music industry. I'd tried a few things and
(16:01):
just thought it was exhausting and it just wasn't for
me at the time, because I was like, man, I
really want to make sure it feels like God's the
center of all this, because I lived half of my
life getting it wrong, and I just thought, I want
to do something that really feels pleasing to the Lord
and not just a business. And I had my first
experience with Nashville felt like more of a music business opportunity.
(16:25):
And I hadn't released music in about seven years, and
so by the time I got into the women's prison,
I had prayed and asked God that you know, I'd
love to sing again, but I don't really feel strong
enough to do like the artist thing where I'm you know,
putting myself out there on the internet and just getting
(16:47):
on stages. And so I prayed and wrote in my
journal I'd love to sing in a women's prison.
Speaker 4 (16:52):
While I got a call a week later from somebody and.
Speaker 5 (16:55):
They said, hey, we got your number from this other
person and we were curious if you'd like to sing
in a Georgia prison with the choir. They're looking to
feature you and they wanted to sing some songs with you,
and I just thought.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
That was a fast answer to prayer.
Speaker 5 (17:10):
And so I show up to the prison and I
just had this powerful encounter with God again. And it
had been a while since I sang, and so it
was just God restoring my love for music through singing
in this prison choir. And we had scheduled to do
one big performance together, but it was just so special
that I said, girls, what if I came back once
(17:32):
a week and taught songwriting and just kept hanging out
with you guys. And so that kind of became my church.
And I got to see just how powerful Christian music
has been for them to just keep them afloat in
there and keep them filled with hope. I left Nashville
and I came up with this songwriting model. It was
my birthday and I was like, all right, I want
(17:53):
to write a song with fifteen people. I was like,
just to make sure nobody makes any money, and it
was just like this. We got around a campfire for
my birthday and there was kids and grandparents and all
different ages, and I was like, I want to hear everybody's.
Speaker 4 (18:07):
Thoughts on the topic of hope.
Speaker 5 (18:09):
And so we went around the circle and I just
asked each person what does hope mean to you? And
I'd write down all these beautiful phrases, and then I
took all those lines and compiled them into a song
and it worked so well, and suddenly I had all
these beautiful things that I never would have thought of.
Speaker 4 (18:26):
And half the.
Speaker 5 (18:27):
People in the circle didn't have a musical bone in
their body, but they helped write this song with me.
And so I had this epiphany, anybody's a songwriter. We
all have stories to tell. And so I took that
model into the prison and we all sat in a
big circle and.
Speaker 4 (18:42):
I said, Okay, let's think of a topic to write about.
And it was like the love of God.
Speaker 5 (18:47):
And then I go around and each person would share
what that means to them in a prison.
Speaker 4 (18:52):
I mean, the answers were so.
Speaker 5 (18:54):
Complex and so deep and so beautiful because they've all
had to wrestle so hard with finding the truth in
such a dark place.
Speaker 4 (19:01):
And so we would do that.
Speaker 5 (19:04):
Same thing, collect the thoughts, and then we would grab
instruments and find melodies, and you know, I'd play a
little something and ask them like, how does this make
you feel?
Speaker 4 (19:13):
Does this feel right? Maybe we change this chord?
Speaker 5 (19:15):
And so it was a group effort and we wrote
I think we wrote five songs together and then we
got to turn around and sing those.
Speaker 4 (19:23):
To the rest of the inmates, which was really really special.
Speaker 5 (19:27):
Singing in the prison really gave me courage again and
hope to sing, and it really gave me my why
because when they sing in there, there's no cameras, there's
no nobody putting them on you too. It's all for
the Lord, and it's all an encounter with God's presence
and a ministry to each other. And I think that's
(19:48):
what I was missing in Nashville, was just that doing
it for the love of music and the love of
each other and for the love of the Lord. And
so I think that got cemented back into me in
a really firm foundation where I'm like, I know why
I'm doing this, and I know that's.
Speaker 4 (20:07):
Never going to be confused again.
Speaker 5 (20:09):
I think where all of the best songs come from
is when you can be yourself and you're not trying
to reach a certain audience necessarily or try to be commercial,
writing to the Lord and writing for each other unlock
something for me. In twenty twenty, I reunited with my
(20:34):
dad after many years of not seeing him, and he
had a lot of mental and physical issues. He used
to be a professional boxer and so he had the
latter stages of Parkinson's and dementia when I moved in
with him in twenty twenty, and what I thought was
going to be a couple weeks long of a quarantine
(20:55):
because nobody really knew what that was at the time,
turned into me living in Georgia for four years and
becoming his primary caregiver. So that's when I laid down
the music and really just had a really special time
with my dad. And you know, he was facing the
end of his life, and so that made it really
(21:16):
really hard. There were times where he didn't know who
I was. But one special thing was I remembered all
his favorite songs from when I was a kid and
he used to play him in the car, and so
it was a lot of Michael W. Smith and Stepher
Curtis Chapman, and so I started playing in all his
old songs and that was kind of how him and
I connected, and we would sing the songs together and
(21:38):
we couldn't always have a conversation. We always sang, and
so that was really what made that time extra special.
And then he passed away at the end of twenty
twenty four, and I was with them when he took
his last breath, and it was just such a full circle,
really beautiful time that God gave us. From then, I
(21:59):
moved straight to Nashville. I gathered my prison girls, I
said goodbye to everybody, and I have packed up and
moved to Nashville and immediately signed a record deal, which
was just so the Lord. And then shortly after that,
I'm getting into writing rooms and meeting all these producers
and people in Nashville.
Speaker 4 (22:18):
Was just like, how exciting you sign a record deal,
Like your whole life is about to change.
Speaker 5 (22:22):
And I wasn't really feeling all of that because I
had just lost my dad and I was grieving and
really coming out of five years of isolation, and so
I had a lot to sing about. But it wasn't
the upbeat Christian bop. It was the heartfelt, deeper songs.
So I was processing in real time with my peers
(22:44):
and the music industry about losing my dad and about
struggling through having brokenness in a broken pass and my
family not all speaking to each other. They were just
really kind and they just said, let's write about that,
Let's dive into that. And so there was a lot
of tears and hugs and special moments writing a lot
(23:07):
of these songs that are going to be on my record.
It's the words that I really needed all through those
years looking after my dad and walking him through his
last breath. And then now it's become a tool for
other things I'm going through.
Speaker 4 (23:22):
The Bible.
Speaker 5 (23:23):
Devotionals like Jesus calling seriously have carried me throughout these years,
where like who am I again? I need the truth
daily to you know, remind me who God says I am.
It was really my first year as a believer, and
what I loved about it was it helped me understand
(23:44):
how the Lord speaks to us, and it gave it
such an approachable tone versus if you're reading the Bible
or even hearing other people talk about God. It helped
me develop my internal interpretation of his voice. He's kind
and he's loving, and he cares about little things, he
cares about big things. And have an earthly father growing up,
(24:07):
so it reframed what a father's voice would sound like
for me, and it was really really good. Well I
was getting a little emotional about that, but yeah, it's
a loving book. This formed my way that I talked
to God and the way I hear his voice. My
cousin actually just started with Jesus calling, and she's kind
of having a similar experience to me, where it's like
(24:29):
I didn't know I could talk to God like this.
So it's been really sweet to see her starting out
on her faith with that. This year, I hit my
twenty year baptism anniversary and just looking over those years,
how he's been so faithful to me. I just don't
question him anymore at all. And so no matter what
doors close or open, or where my life's headed, even
(24:52):
throughout those years where I was looking after my dad
and I was in my mid thirties and I quit
doing music for five years or for seven years, it's
like I wasn't super concerned. I just trust him with
my life story, and even if that was looking after
my dad for another five years, I was just like,
he's got it and he's not going to let me
miss what he has for me. And I think that
(25:14):
has been cemented into my heart over the last twenty
years of just walking with him and listening to his
voice and learning to trust and know his voice above
all others. Looking back on my baptism, it was the
feeling of being washed clean after years of making terrible
(25:34):
choices and struggling with my identity and carrying the weight
of shame and guilt and sin. And I was carrying
so much, and I felt like when I went under
that water, I just came out a brand new person
and I was washed clean and I felt born again.
And really, from that point on, I've never been the same.
(25:58):
God is really good at picking up the broken pieces
and making it into something beautiful.
Speaker 4 (26:04):
And I want people to know that it's never too late.
Speaker 5 (26:07):
And no matter what you've done in your life, when
you give it to Jesus and you turn to him
and you confess and you give him those things, he
even chooses to forget them. Talk to the Lord and
run toward him when your low moments. Don't run away
from God.
Speaker 4 (26:25):
Jesus listens. January tenth.
Speaker 5 (26:27):
Dear Jesus, please help me learn to appreciate difficult days,
being stimulated by the challenges I encounter, rather than becoming
distressed as I journey through rough to reign with you.
I gain confidence from knowing that together we can handle anything.
When I look back on my life, I can see
how much you have helped me through the difficult days
(26:48):
in the past. Yet I easily fall into the trap
of thinking, yes, but that was then and this is now. Instead,
I need to remember that though my circumstances change immensely,
you remain the same throughout time and eternity.
Speaker 4 (27:02):
Moreover, in you, I live and move and have my being.
Speaker 5 (27:06):
As I live close to you, aware of your loving presence,
I can go confidently through my toughest times in your
worthy name.
Speaker 4 (27:14):
Amen. To learn more.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
About Jamie MacDonald, visit Jamie McDonald music dot com and
be sure to check out her self titled debut album
wherever you get your music. If you'd like to hear
more stories about being fully known by God, check out
our interview with Ali Gilkison. Next time on the Jesus
(27:39):
Calling podcast, we'll hear from Jordan Smith, who won NBCES
The Voice in twenty fifteen. Jordan shares how he stays
rooted in faith and family through the ups and downs
of life.
Speaker 6 (27:51):
I have to be extremely intentional about keeping up my
prayer life, because I've found when I begin to lose
focus on my relationship with God, an unhappier person, I'm
not as kind as I should be. My words start
(28:12):
to become unkind, I start to worry more, I start
to give in to stress and anxiety. I start making
questionable decisions, and so I have to be extremely intentional
to remain prayerful each day.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Thanks for listening to the Jesus Calling Stories of Faith
podcast on the Life Audio Network. Every week, we'll bring
you stories from people who share their journeys of faith
and how prayer and a relationship with God transform their lives.
Be sure to follow us on Apple, Spotify, iHeart, or
wherever you listen to podcasts, and leave us a review
(28:59):
so others can be inspired weekly by these stories of faith. Finally,
you can find encouragement resources and more on the Jesus
Calling website at Jesuscalling dot com
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