September 17, 2025 • 20 mins
Zach Greenberg, from the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression (FIRE), joins your host, Dr. Rachel Yoho, as the first guest from outside of the university to have an exploratory and academic talk about the timely topics of free speech and academic freedom. Please note that this episode was planned in June 2025 and recorded in August 2025. This is an academic exploration of a topic, not a set of directives, as are all podcast episodes.
Resources: The FIRE Org: https://www.thefire.org FIRE’s Free Speech page: https://www.thefire.org/defending-your-rights/free-speech FIRE’s Academic Freedom page: https://www.thefire.org/defending-your-rights/academic-freedom FIRE’s Research & Learn page: https://www.thefire.org/research-learn
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Episode Transcript
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Rachel (00:08):
Hello and welcome to the Keystone Concepts in Teaching
podcast.
I'm your host Rachel Yoho, andI'm very excited to be joined by
Zach Greenberg from the FIREinstitution, so the Foundation
for Individual Rights andExpression, for this episode.
This episode I anticipate isprobably one of our first in
many different speakers on thetopic of free speech and
(00:31):
academic freedom, as it's suchan important and pressing issue
with so many different takes anddifferent aspects on it.
Thank you so much, Zach, forjoining us.
Would you like to tell us alittle bit about yourself and
your experience here?
Zach (00:45):
Sure, Rachel.
Thank you so much for having me.
I am Zach Greenberg.
I am a First Amendment attorneyat FIRE.
We are a nonpartisan nonprofitthat defends free speech
nationwide with a particularfocus on college campuses.
At FIRE, my department, ourCampus Rights Advocacy Team,
defends professors, students,and student groups facing free
speech issues at public andprivate universities across
(01:08):
America.
I grew up on Long Island, and Iwent to SUNY Bingington for
undergrad and Syracuse Law, andI've been in Philadelphia ever
since.
I graduated in 2016 and it'sbeen a pretty amazing nine years
at FIRE, so I'm really excitedto be here and talk with you
today.
Rachel (01:26):
Yeah.
That's great.
Thank you so much for joiningus, and thank you for being our
very first non-Mason speaker onthe podcast or guest, if you
will.
So thank you so much.
So as we get started today, I'dlike us to do a little bit of
maybe just foundationalconversation.
You know, we're often hearingabout terms, especially, in the
news right now, about likeacademic freedom or free speech,
(01:50):
and also in the context, notjust of universities, but also
of teaching and learning.
So, can you start off ourconversation today with your
thoughts on what these termsmight mean to our listeners
considering that would be mostlypeople on campuses full-time or
adjunct faculty?
Zach (02:08):
Yeah, sure.
I can start with academicfreedoms, talking about faculty
members here.
Our definition of academicfreedom is the general
recognition that professorsshould be free to teach research
and debate without censorship orinstitutional or outside
interference.
So this is really the core of aprofessor's job,
(02:28):
responsibilities, teaching,lecturing, researching,
discussing the issues withintheir expertise, commenting as
experts in their community.
And we feel this should remainfree, not only for the rights of
the professor individually, butalso for the institution and for
society at large.
Having the freedom to delve intothese sometimes controversial
(02:49):
and obviously very importantsocietal topics is really
essential for the freefunctioning of a university and
in our democracy.
And so we see academic freedomas both an individual right of
the professor, and also ainstitutional larger value for
our society.
Rachel (03:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's great.
And so to a faculty member who'smostly focused on, you know, a
random Tuesday, getting theirstudents to do the reading,
what, how does this, in yourview, maybe show up?
You know, we can have these kindof theoretical concepts of yes,
they're research, yes, they'reteaching, but especially in the
teaching, how do you see that asmaybe a day-to-day practice?
(03:27):
Or do you see it as a day-to-daytype of thing?
Zach (03:31):
Yeah, I mean, academic freedom protects everybody
equally.
It's kind of like free speech.
We'll have the same right toexpress ourselves on a college
campus and in society at large.
And in terms of how it affectsregular faculty members, yeah, I
mean, we believe that one of thegoals of a liberal arts
education is to get students tochallenge their deepest ideas
(03:51):
and their deepest biases, youknow, expand their worldview,
have a discussion about the mostimportant topics facing our
society.
And that can involve somepotentially uncomfortable
pedagogy and some lecturing.
As long as it's relevant to thesubject matter.
It's important that professorsare free to introduce materials
in their class that may makestudents uncomfortable and make
them question their world views.
(04:13):
And that's how they grow andeducate themselves as human
beings and as citizens of ourdemocracy.
So I feel like academic freedommight not affect professors who
are teaching like physics ormaybe hard sciences as much as
it affects professors teachingphilosophy or politics or law,
or we know one of these hotbutton topics.
But really all professors havethe same right to lecture and to
(04:34):
teach and debate without havingtheir jobs threatened for
expressing and discussing theseacademic and, you know,
controversial materials.
Rachel (04:43):
Yeah, that's a great.
And so when we're talking aboutthis, having the activities,
having the conversation be anacademic debate is, or an
academic exercise or whateverthe activity might be, is very
important.
But I think here also we'retalking about sort of that
difference between learning andtraining.
You know, we do some of both orsome of each in different
(05:04):
activities.
You know, we might be trained ona certain software, but we're
also learning about largerconcepts and I think here we get
into some of the nuance withsome of that as well.
And so with that, you know,we've covered a little bit on
academic freedom.
Is there anything you wannaexpand on for free speech
specifically for this type ofaudience?
Zach (05:24):
Yeah.
Academic freedom, it, you know,really affects professors.
It protects institutions as wellfrom government interference,
but, you know, we consider freespeech as a larger societal
value as well.
You know, it's just trying to,the first amendment, that's kind
of the legal background for freespeech.
The general recognition thatpeople should be free to express
themselves in any manner theysee fit up and until their
(05:45):
speech falls into one of thecategories of unprotected
speech, like truth threats, orharassment.
And we can discuss that a littlebit later.
But yeah, I mean, at auniversity, especially one
that's bound by the FirstAmendment that promises free
speech, you know, we feel thatthe unfettered exchange of ideas
is the most important thing theuniversity can possibly promote.
It's within the missionstatement of the university.
(06:06):
It is the value of highereducation.
And it's part of being in a freesociety that when students
graduate and they go into, youknow, greater society, they're
gonna have the full array ofFirst Amendment rights at their
disposal.
Learning how to use those incollege is a really important
factor.
Rachel (06:22):
Yeah, absolutely.
And so right now, especially,you know, these topics are very,
very timely, very discussed inbroader society in the news on a
nearly daily basis.
So what do you see, from yourview, your perspective as the
points of concern for teachingthat faculty might want to, or
(06:44):
perhaps should be, consideringright now?
Zach (06:47):
That's a really interesting question.
Yeah.
The points of a concern forteaching.
It's a very difficult time to bea faculty member right now, I
would say in 2025 for a varietyof reasons.
The first is that highereducation is at a bit of a
crossroads about whether theywant to inculcate a set of
societal values among students,such as, you know, recent
(07:10):
concerns we see, or I guess Ishould say advocacy regarding DI
initiatives and, you know, othersocietal viewpoints.
The call between that, theclassical liberal arts education
of just kind of being aphilosopher, expanding their
worldview, questioning theirassumptions, kind of just having
this more abstract teachingnotion.
And then what you mentioned,which is building skills, right?
Teaching students, for example,how to read a case, you know,
(07:31):
how to fix a light bulb, how todo plumbing, how to just have
these life skills you're gonnahave, right?
Things you should know beforeyou graduate college.
So it's tough to join acurriculum around all that,
especially when it comes to, youknow, the university's interests
as well in its own curriculumand its own academic pursuits.
So we encourage universities andprofessors to come to a shared
(07:52):
understanding when it comes towhat the actual goals are for
teaching and lecturing.
But we do hope that professorshave enough freedom to really
set their own criteria and theirown syllabi when it comes to
these classes.
Rachel (08:04):
Yeah, absolutely.
And so with this, it kind ofgoes back to broadly higher ed's
identity crisis a bit, but alsoreally thinking about what do we
want in a particular course,what do we want our students to
learn?
And sometimes that conversationcan seem a bit transactional.
Um when we're thinking about,you know, what do you do to earn
(08:25):
a grade?
What do you do to earn a degree?
Something like that.
And so, hopefully in this,staying a little bit away from
the transactional view onlearning or whatnot.
But in general, I think wetalked a little bit earlier on,
you know, faculty are mostlytrying to get students to do the
readings, participate in theassignments, participate in
(08:45):
class, maybe use or not use, youknow, generative AI when they
should or shouldn't be doingthat.
So especially for our facultymembers who don't necessarily
teach what we might put inquotes of contentious topic,
should they still be engagedwith this type of conversation
or how might this affect them?
(09:06):
I know you mentioned earlierlike maybe less relevant in
physics, but should they stillbe kind of keeping their, you
know, finger on the pulse of theconversation, if you will?
Zach (09:15):
Yeah, absolutely.
I strongly believe that even inthe hard sciences, even in the
topics where we don't reallyhave the kind of academic
freedom interest here of thefree exchange of ideas, maybe
just teaching math or physicsfor example.
It's still important to teachstudents about basic civics and
about free speech, about whyit's important.
(09:35):
Because regardless of whatstudents do after they graduate,
they're gonna be voters.
They're gonna be part of ourside, they're gonna be citizens,
they're gonna have to have somebasic understanding of how our
democracy works.
And we are seeing a lot ofstudents that are graduating
nowadays without theunderstanding.
I was reading a report recentlythat only I think 60% of
students or Americans can namethe three branches of
(09:57):
government.
And you know, that really comesback to high school, comes back
to grade school, comes back tocollege, where you know, they're
not really getting the kind ofeducation they need to make
these decisions.
And yeah, I just think it'sreally important that before a
student graduates to have somesense of what it means to live
in a country that has the FirstAmendment, free speech, that we
live in a democracy the systemsof government we have, and I do
(10:19):
hope that comes earlier thancollege, but if not, college is
a great time to start.
Rachel (10:24):
Yeah, so when we're thinking about this, we're
looking at some of the similarto perhaps some of the ways we
hope different areas are evendoing things like teaching and
helping students develop skillsin teamwork or interactions with
topics or how they communicatewith others.
So this really seems like it'squite along the same lines.
(10:45):
And so do you see any currentguideposts or recommendations,
like for example, what to do ornot to do right now?
How to do the good work we wantour students to get and, you
know, meet the learning goals atthe end of the semester.
But we also don't wanna be, youknow, in larger conversations
that we don't need to be inperhaps.
Zach (11:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
One thing that I recommend is toteach a culture of free speech.
You don't have to be a FirstAmendment expert to understand
the value in seeking outopposing views, not demonizing
those with divergent opinions.
Having the humility tounderstand that you might not
always be right, and thatthere's always a chance to
(11:26):
change your mind.
There's no shame in that.
And the best way to teach thesevalues is to model it.
I love to see classes that havedebates, that have discussions
where students play devil'sadvocacy, where students really
get into the issues they'repassionate about and discuss
them with free speech values inmind.
And I think that's best modeledby the professor in the syllabus
(11:50):
with the assignments, with theirgrading.
Because these values can applyin really any situation, and
they're lifelong skills studentsare gonna have, whether they're
in the workplace on a team, andof course in their philosophy
and politics classes, in lawschool, definitely.
But yeah, just having that kindalifelong curiosity, that thirst
for knowledge.
I think it really starts withunderstanding free speech values
(12:11):
and why they're important.
Rachel (12:13):
Absolutely, and it kind of makes it that academic
exercise as well.
Zach (12:17):
Definitely.
Rachel (12:18):
I mean, I've done that in some of my classes, you know,
when I'm teaching, is havingthat structured debate.
I mean, for me it's theimportance of the structure.
We're not having a classconversation turn into a debate,
but we're structuring a debate.
We're having opening statements.
We're having responses.
And you know, for me, with theway I taught some of these
activities is, you know,assigning the sides.
(12:40):
So that way you're not reallynecessarily advocating for your
actual, personally held beliefs,but we're making an academic
activity.
We're making an academic debate,and like you said, having that,
you know, necessity of bringingin points and counterpoints or
whatnot as well.
Zach (12:58):
Definitely, I love the, uh, Oxford style debate style
for classes, where,'cause thenyou have the audience
participating as well, right?
To see how many minds you changethrough your advocacy, even
though you may not care aboutthe topic at all, just having a
student persuade one anotherthat they're right and the
adversaries are wrong, can be alot of fun.
And I think it's a good skill tohave, even in your own personal
relationships, right?
Being able to persuade yoursignificant other, that you're
(13:20):
right and that they're wrong ormaybe vice versa, it's a useful
skill.
It might not get you, you know,many brownie points there, but
still being able to hold yourground and make an argument,
it's important.
Rachel (13:31):
Yeah.
And being able to hear the otherpoints and be able to make
those, you know, with, whetherit's research backed or
political or general opinionbased, and being able to clarify
the differences.
I think they're especiallybringing those into classes
because I think there are a lotof classes, a lot of topics and
disciplines.
You know, even ones that aren'tnecessarily in a philosophy or a
(13:53):
law or one of those areas thatmight be more common fits for
debates.
I mean, I was teaching thesetypes of debates in
environmental health and soanytime we don't have that
always one easy one rightanswer.
There can be a lot ofopportunity there for that to be
a learning experience.
Zach (14:10):
And ifstudents don't learn that from college, where are
they gonna learn it from?
I mean, they're gonna look atthe news, they see people using
ad hominem attacks, emotionalreasoning.
They see people catastrophizing,using other pathological
thinking.
And like, if they see that asthe best way to argue or best
way to debate your opponents,you can see how that can spiral
into, you know, not a veryproductive democracy going
forward.
(14:30):
So I think if you're gonna learnsomewhere, you might as well
learn it in college.
You might as well model it andshow'em how it's done.
Rachel (14:36):
Yeah, absolutely.
And how we approach conflictresolution, how we approach
different types of, you know,building bridges, building
dialogue with that as well.
And so with this, obviously oneof our topics, one of our
interest areas for thisconversation today is really
thinking about faculty, youknow, what are their needs?
(14:57):
Certainly our listeners, whatare they interested in?
And so what are some of yourrecommendations for faculty to
protect themselves in a way thatnot only supports them as an
individual, as a contributor tothe institution, but also helps
their students continue theirlearning?
Zach (15:15):
Yeah, I think the number one thing faculty members can do
to protect themselves is to knowtheir rights, to be forewarned,
just forearmed.
Just having an understanding ofwhat academic freedom means,
what university policiesprotect, is the number one thing
they can do to identify rightsviolations when they occur and
to address'em, not only forthemselves, but also for their
(15:35):
colleagues.
So, yeah, I mean a lot ofprofessors have an intuitive
understanding that whenadministrators tell'em to change
their lecture content when theycensor their speech, say they
can't have events.
We see a lot of faculty membersare protective of their
syllabus, that when theadministrators say You have to
take this off your syllabus,they kind of have red flags go
up in the back of their headsaying, Hey, this seems wrong.
I'm not sure why it's wrong, butI'm gonna maybe contact FIRE or,
(15:58):
you know, reach out to anattorney and see if they can
help us out.
So yeah, just knowing that theprofessors teaching their
research, how they talk, the waythe debate is protected, will go
a long way to protecting facultyrights.
And of course, when those thingsare affected, when faculty are
suspended or punished for whatthey say or how they teach, the
best thing you can do is contactFIRE.
You know, we're here for you.
We're happy to discuss ways wecan protect faculty members and
(16:21):
how we can best help them.
Rachel (16:22):
Absolutely, and I think you know here especially, we're
talking about a very strongdifference between the, Hey,
these things in our syllabusdon't align with the
programmatic goals, or somethinglike that, versus, Hey, we don't
wanna talk about these topicsanymore for maybe a reason that
isn't shared, you know,something like that.
So yeah, these are great points,and especially as we're thinking
(16:44):
about what does it mean foreveryone in the space to feel
included, to be part of thelearning experience.
I think that's a great point offaculty to be learning about
some of these topics that maybearen't at the front of their
minds if they're not in thatparticular space.
So as we start to wrap up any.
Other things you'd like toshare?
Any resources that you mightlike to highlight from FIRE?
(17:07):
Things that our faculty orlisteners might find
interesting.
Zach (17:10):
Yeah, there's two quick points, on FIRE's website,
theFIRE.org, we do have someexplainers and some examples of
academic freedom, what it means,what it looks like.
You can read stories of otherprofessors who've been punished
for exercising their academicfreedom and what defending them
looks like, and just to see ifyou have similar situations like
that, you know, contact us.
And yeah, just to plug ourservices one last time, FIRE
(17:33):
does have our faculty legaldefense fund, FLDF, where we
will connect faculty membersfacing free speech violations
with attorneys free of charge atpublic universities.
And the goal is, as a firstresponder program, to get
somebody in there who can helpthe faculty member right away
understand their rights, defendthemselves, and hopefully get
their jobs back.
(17:54):
We found that many facultymembers who are targeted for
their expression, often wind upsuspended or terminated, just
because of the controversialnature of what they're saying,
especially when they're involvedin Israel-Palestine or other,
you know, hot button issues.
And so, you know, we reachfaculty members to get in touch
with us if t hey feel they'refacing censorship and it's a
totally confidential, totallyfree process.
The faculty member's the onethat controls the whole part of
(18:16):
it.
And, you know, we're here tohelp'em in any way that we can.
And you know, our goal is to getthem teaching, get their jobs
back, get them back in theclassroom and doing what they do
best because, you know, they'rethe experts of what they do.
But we are the free speech,academic freedom people.
We wanna help any way that wecan.
Rachel (18:32):
Yeah.
That's great.
Well, thank you.
So today I think we're reallylooking at our keystone concepts
of exploring resources.
You know, I think here obviouslywe're always in that space or
often perhaps in that space ofthe faculty member is the
expert.
And obviously we should beexperts in our own disciplines
or in our own courses, but thereare just like we were talking
(18:54):
about earlier, there are timeswhere the best thing we might
say is, I don't know.
And so when we say, I don'tknow, maybe these are also
looking at things of, you know,what are some of the different
conversations going on abouthigher education?
What is academic freedom?
What does free speech look likein our teaching?
Where do I find resources?
Whether those are fIREresources, or sorry, Zach, maybe
(19:15):
other resources as well, um,certainly out there, other
things to read also.
But yeah, I think that's reallylooking at our keystone concept
today of, you know, how do weexplore and expand our own
knowledge on some of thesethings that might not always be
at the front of our day-to-day.
Zach (19:32):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
It's about getting the help theyneed to defend their rights.
And yeah, we want to ensure thatthey're able to do what they do
best.
Rachel (19:41):
Yeah.
All right.
Well, thank you so much for yourtime today.
I really appreciate it.
I appreciate the work that youdo and your giving your time to
this podcast to talk with ourfaculty, our instructors or
instructors broadly who might belistening.
So thank you so much for yourtime.
Zach (19:56):
Thank you for having me.
Best of luck with the rest ofthe semester.
Rachel (19:59):
Yeah.
Thank you.
Alright, and please catch ournext episodes.
We're posting every two weeks onKeystone Concepts in Teaching
during the fall and springsemesters, and you can find us
on most of your favorite podcastlistening platforms.
So thank you and I look forwardto catching you in another
episode.
Hello and welcome to the Keystone Concepts in Teaching
podcast.
I'm your host Rachel Yoho, andI'm very excited to be joined by
Zach Greenberg from the FIREinstitution, so the Foundation
for Individual Rights andExpression, for this episode.
This episode I anticipate isprobably one of our first in
many different speakers on thetopic of free speech and
(00:31):
academic freedom, as it's suchan important and pressing issue
with so many different takes anddifferent aspects on it.
Thank you so much, Zach, forjoining us.
Would you like to tell us alittle bit about yourself and
your experience here?
Zach (00:45):
Sure, Rachel.
Thank you so much for having me.
I am Zach Greenberg.
I am a First Amendment attorneyat FIRE.
We are a nonpartisan nonprofitthat defends free speech
nationwide with a particularfocus on college campuses.
At FIRE, my department, ourCampus Rights Advocacy Team,
defends professors, students,and student groups facing free
speech issues at public andprivate universities across
(01:08):
America.
I grew up on Long Island, and Iwent to SUNY Bingington for
undergrad and Syracuse Law, andI've been in Philadelphia ever
since.
I graduated in 2016 and it'sbeen a pretty amazing nine years
at FIRE, so I'm really excitedto be here and talk with you
today.
Rachel (01:26):
Yeah.
That's great.
Thank you so much for joiningus, and thank you for being our
very first non-Mason speaker onthe podcast or guest, if you
will.
So thank you so much.
So as we get started today, I'dlike us to do a little bit of
maybe just foundationalconversation.
You know, we're often hearingabout terms, especially, in the
news right now, about likeacademic freedom or free speech,
(01:50):
and also in the context, notjust of universities, but also
of teaching and learning.
So, can you start off ourconversation today with your
thoughts on what these termsmight mean to our listeners
considering that would be mostlypeople on campuses full-time or
adjunct faculty?
Zach (02:08):
Yeah, sure.
I can start with academicfreedoms, talking about faculty
members here.
Our definition of academicfreedom is the general
recognition that professorsshould be free to teach research
and debate without censorship orinstitutional or outside
interference.
So this is really the core of aprofessor's job,
(02:28):
responsibilities, teaching,lecturing, researching,
discussing the issues withintheir expertise, commenting as
experts in their community.
And we feel this should remainfree, not only for the rights of
the professor individually, butalso for the institution and for
society at large.
Having the freedom to delve intothese sometimes controversial
(02:49):
and obviously very importantsocietal topics is really
essential for the freefunctioning of a university and
in our democracy.
And so we see academic freedomas both an individual right of
the professor, and also ainstitutional larger value for
our society.
Rachel (03:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's great.
And so to a faculty member who'smostly focused on, you know, a
random Tuesday, getting theirstudents to do the reading,
what, how does this, in yourview, maybe show up?
You know, we can have these kindof theoretical concepts of yes,
they're research, yes, they'reteaching, but especially in the
teaching, how do you see that asmaybe a day-to-day practice?
(03:27):
Or do you see it as a day-to-daytype of thing?
Zach (03:31):
Yeah, I mean, academic freedom protects everybody
equally.
It's kind of like free speech.
We'll have the same right toexpress ourselves on a college
campus and in society at large.
And in terms of how it affectsregular faculty members, yeah, I
mean, we believe that one of thegoals of a liberal arts
education is to get students tochallenge their deepest ideas
(03:51):
and their deepest biases, youknow, expand their worldview,
have a discussion about the mostimportant topics facing our
society.
And that can involve somepotentially uncomfortable
pedagogy and some lecturing.
As long as it's relevant to thesubject matter.
It's important that professorsare free to introduce materials
in their class that may makestudents uncomfortable and make
them question their world views.
(04:13):
And that's how they grow andeducate themselves as human
beings and as citizens of ourdemocracy.
So I feel like academic freedommight not affect professors who
are teaching like physics ormaybe hard sciences as much as
it affects professors teachingphilosophy or politics or law,
or we know one of these hotbutton topics.
But really all professors havethe same right to lecture and to
(04:34):
teach and debate without havingtheir jobs threatened for
expressing and discussing theseacademic and, you know,
controversial materials.
Rachel (04:43):
Yeah, that's a great.
And so when we're talking aboutthis, having the activities,
having the conversation be anacademic debate is, or an
academic exercise or whateverthe activity might be, is very
important.
But I think here also we'retalking about sort of that
difference between learning andtraining.
You know, we do some of both orsome of each in different
(05:04):
activities.
You know, we might be trained ona certain software, but we're
also learning about largerconcepts and I think here we get
into some of the nuance withsome of that as well.
And so with that, you know,we've covered a little bit on
academic freedom.
Is there anything you wannaexpand on for free speech
specifically for this type ofaudience?
Zach (05:24):
Yeah.
Academic freedom, it, you know,really affects professors.
It protects institutions as wellfrom government interference,
but, you know, we consider freespeech as a larger societal
value as well.
You know, it's just trying to,the first amendment, that's kind
of the legal background for freespeech.
The general recognition thatpeople should be free to express
themselves in any manner theysee fit up and until their
(05:45):
speech falls into one of thecategories of unprotected
speech, like truth threats, orharassment.
And we can discuss that a littlebit later.
But yeah, I mean, at auniversity, especially one
that's bound by the FirstAmendment that promises free
speech, you know, we feel thatthe unfettered exchange of ideas
is the most important thing theuniversity can possibly promote.
It's within the missionstatement of the university.
(06:06):
It is the value of highereducation.
And it's part of being in a freesociety that when students
graduate and they go into, youknow, greater society, they're
gonna have the full array ofFirst Amendment rights at their
disposal.
Learning how to use those incollege is a really important
factor.
Rachel (06:22):
Yeah, absolutely.
And so right now, especially,you know, these topics are very,
very timely, very discussed inbroader society in the news on a
nearly daily basis.
So what do you see, from yourview, your perspective as the
points of concern for teachingthat faculty might want to, or
(06:44):
perhaps should be, consideringright now?
Zach (06:47):
That's a really interesting question.
Yeah.
The points of a concern forteaching.
It's a very difficult time to bea faculty member right now, I
would say in 2025 for a varietyof reasons.
The first is that highereducation is at a bit of a
crossroads about whether theywant to inculcate a set of
societal values among students,such as, you know, recent
(07:10):
concerns we see, or I guess Ishould say advocacy regarding DI
initiatives and, you know, othersocietal viewpoints.
The call between that, theclassical liberal arts education
of just kind of being aphilosopher, expanding their
worldview, questioning theirassumptions, kind of just having
this more abstract teachingnotion.
And then what you mentioned,which is building skills, right?
Teaching students, for example,how to read a case, you know,
(07:31):
how to fix a light bulb, how todo plumbing, how to just have
these life skills you're gonnahave, right?
Things you should know beforeyou graduate college.
So it's tough to join acurriculum around all that,
especially when it comes to, youknow, the university's interests
as well in its own curriculumand its own academic pursuits.
So we encourage universities andprofessors to come to a shared
(07:52):
understanding when it comes towhat the actual goals are for
teaching and lecturing.
But we do hope that professorshave enough freedom to really
set their own criteria and theirown syllabi when it comes to
these classes.
Rachel (08:04):
Yeah, absolutely.
And so with this, it kind ofgoes back to broadly higher ed's
identity crisis a bit, but alsoreally thinking about what do we
want in a particular course,what do we want our students to
learn?
And sometimes that conversationcan seem a bit transactional.
Um when we're thinking about,you know, what do you do to earn
(08:25):
a grade?
What do you do to earn a degree?
Something like that.
And so, hopefully in this,staying a little bit away from
the transactional view onlearning or whatnot.
But in general, I think wetalked a little bit earlier on,
you know, faculty are mostlytrying to get students to do the
readings, participate in theassignments, participate in
(08:45):
class, maybe use or not use, youknow, generative AI when they
should or shouldn't be doingthat.
So especially for our facultymembers who don't necessarily
teach what we might put inquotes of contentious topic,
should they still be engagedwith this type of conversation
or how might this affect them?
(09:06):
I know you mentioned earlierlike maybe less relevant in
physics, but should they stillbe kind of keeping their, you
know, finger on the pulse of theconversation, if you will?
Zach (09:15):
Yeah, absolutely.
I strongly believe that even inthe hard sciences, even in the
topics where we don't reallyhave the kind of academic
freedom interest here of thefree exchange of ideas, maybe
just teaching math or physicsfor example.
It's still important to teachstudents about basic civics and
about free speech, about whyit's important.
(09:35):
Because regardless of whatstudents do after they graduate,
they're gonna be voters.
They're gonna be part of ourside, they're gonna be citizens,
they're gonna have to have somebasic understanding of how our
democracy works.
And we are seeing a lot ofstudents that are graduating
nowadays without theunderstanding.
I was reading a report recentlythat only I think 60% of
students or Americans can namethe three branches of
(09:57):
government.
And you know, that really comesback to high school, comes back
to grade school, comes back tocollege, where you know, they're
not really getting the kind ofeducation they need to make
these decisions.
And yeah, I just think it'sreally important that before a
student graduates to have somesense of what it means to live
in a country that has the FirstAmendment, free speech, that we
live in a democracy the systemsof government we have, and I do
(10:19):
hope that comes earlier thancollege, but if not, college is
a great time to start.
Rachel (10:24):
Yeah, so when we're thinking about this, we're
looking at some of the similarto perhaps some of the ways we
hope different areas are evendoing things like teaching and
helping students develop skillsin teamwork or interactions with
topics or how they communicatewith others.
So this really seems like it'squite along the same lines.
(10:45):
And so do you see any currentguideposts or recommendations,
like for example, what to do ornot to do right now?
How to do the good work we wantour students to get and, you
know, meet the learning goals atthe end of the semester.
But we also don't wanna be, youknow, in larger conversations
that we don't need to be inperhaps.
Zach (11:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
One thing that I recommend is toteach a culture of free speech.
You don't have to be a FirstAmendment expert to understand
the value in seeking outopposing views, not demonizing
those with divergent opinions.
Having the humility tounderstand that you might not
always be right, and thatthere's always a chance to
(11:26):
change your mind.
There's no shame in that.
And the best way to teach thesevalues is to model it.
I love to see classes that havedebates, that have discussions
where students play devil'sadvocacy, where students really
get into the issues they'repassionate about and discuss
them with free speech values inmind.
And I think that's best modeledby the professor in the syllabus
(11:50):
with the assignments, with theirgrading.
Because these values can applyin really any situation, and
they're lifelong skills studentsare gonna have, whether they're
in the workplace on a team, andof course in their philosophy
and politics classes, in lawschool, definitely.
But yeah, just having that kindalifelong curiosity, that thirst
for knowledge.
I think it really starts withunderstanding free speech values
(12:11):
and why they're important.
Rachel (12:13):
Absolutely, and it kind of makes it that academic
exercise as well.
Zach (12:17):
Definitely.
Rachel (12:18):
I mean, I've done that in some of my classes, you know,
when I'm teaching, is havingthat structured debate.
I mean, for me it's theimportance of the structure.
We're not having a classconversation turn into a debate,
but we're structuring a debate.
We're having opening statements.
We're having responses.
And you know, for me, with theway I taught some of these
activities is, you know,assigning the sides.
(12:40):
So that way you're not reallynecessarily advocating for your
actual, personally held beliefs,but we're making an academic
activity.
We're making an academic debate,and like you said, having that,
you know, necessity of bringingin points and counterpoints or
whatnot as well.
Zach (12:58):
Definitely, I love the, uh, Oxford style debate style
for classes, where,'cause thenyou have the audience
participating as well, right?
To see how many minds you changethrough your advocacy, even
though you may not care aboutthe topic at all, just having a
student persuade one anotherthat they're right and the
adversaries are wrong, can be alot of fun.
And I think it's a good skill tohave, even in your own personal
relationships, right?
Being able to persuade yoursignificant other, that you're
(13:20):
right and that they're wrong ormaybe vice versa, it's a useful
skill.
It might not get you, you know,many brownie points there, but
still being able to hold yourground and make an argument,
it's important.
Rachel (13:31):
Yeah.
And being able to hear the otherpoints and be able to make
those, you know, with, whetherit's research backed or
political or general opinionbased, and being able to clarify
the differences.
I think they're especiallybringing those into classes
because I think there are a lotof classes, a lot of topics and
disciplines.
You know, even ones that aren'tnecessarily in a philosophy or a
(13:53):
law or one of those areas thatmight be more common fits for
debates.
I mean, I was teaching thesetypes of debates in
environmental health and soanytime we don't have that
always one easy one rightanswer.
There can be a lot ofopportunity there for that to be
a learning experience.
Zach (14:10):
And ifstudents don't learn that from college, where are
they gonna learn it from?
I mean, they're gonna look atthe news, they see people using
ad hominem attacks, emotionalreasoning.
They see people catastrophizing,using other pathological
thinking.
And like, if they see that asthe best way to argue or best
way to debate your opponents,you can see how that can spiral
into, you know, not a veryproductive democracy going
forward.
(14:30):
So I think if you're gonna learnsomewhere, you might as well
learn it in college.
You might as well model it andshow'em how it's done.
Rachel (14:36):
Yeah, absolutely.
And how we approach conflictresolution, how we approach
different types of, you know,building bridges, building
dialogue with that as well.
And so with this, obviously oneof our topics, one of our
interest areas for thisconversation today is really
thinking about faculty, youknow, what are their needs?
(14:57):
Certainly our listeners, whatare they interested in?
And so what are some of yourrecommendations for faculty to
protect themselves in a way thatnot only supports them as an
individual, as a contributor tothe institution, but also helps
their students continue theirlearning?
Zach (15:15):
Yeah, I think the number one thing faculty members can do
to protect themselves is to knowtheir rights, to be forewarned,
just forearmed.
Just having an understanding ofwhat academic freedom means,
what university policiesprotect, is the number one thing
they can do to identify rightsviolations when they occur and
to address'em, not only forthemselves, but also for their
(15:35):
colleagues.
So, yeah, I mean a lot ofprofessors have an intuitive
understanding that whenadministrators tell'em to change
their lecture content when theycensor their speech, say they
can't have events.
We see a lot of faculty membersare protective of their
syllabus, that when theadministrators say You have to
take this off your syllabus,they kind of have red flags go
up in the back of their headsaying, Hey, this seems wrong.
I'm not sure why it's wrong, butI'm gonna maybe contact FIRE or,
(15:58):
you know, reach out to anattorney and see if they can
help us out.
So yeah, just knowing that theprofessors teaching their
research, how they talk, the waythe debate is protected, will go
a long way to protecting facultyrights.
And of course, when those thingsare affected, when faculty are
suspended or punished for whatthey say or how they teach, the
best thing you can do is contactFIRE.
You know, we're here for you.
We're happy to discuss ways wecan protect faculty members and
(16:21):
how we can best help them.
Rachel (16:22):
Absolutely, and I think you know here especially, we're
talking about a very strongdifference between the, Hey,
these things in our syllabusdon't align with the
programmatic goals, or somethinglike that, versus, Hey, we don't
wanna talk about these topicsanymore for maybe a reason that
isn't shared, you know,something like that.
So yeah, these are great points,and especially as we're thinking
(16:44):
about what does it mean foreveryone in the space to feel
included, to be part of thelearning experience.
I think that's a great point offaculty to be learning about
some of these topics that maybearen't at the front of their
minds if they're not in thatparticular space.
So as we start to wrap up any.
Other things you'd like toshare?
Any resources that you mightlike to highlight from FIRE?
(17:07):
Things that our faculty orlisteners might find
interesting.
Zach (17:10):
Yeah, there's two quick points, on FIRE's website,
theFIRE.org, we do have someexplainers and some examples of
academic freedom, what it means,what it looks like.
You can read stories of otherprofessors who've been punished
for exercising their academicfreedom and what defending them
looks like, and just to see ifyou have similar situations like
that, you know, contact us.
And yeah, just to plug ourservices one last time, FIRE
(17:33):
does have our faculty legaldefense fund, FLDF, where we
will connect faculty membersfacing free speech violations
with attorneys free of charge atpublic universities.
And the goal is, as a firstresponder program, to get
somebody in there who can helpthe faculty member right away
understand their rights, defendthemselves, and hopefully get
their jobs back.
(17:54):
We found that many facultymembers who are targeted for
their expression, often wind upsuspended or terminated, just
because of the controversialnature of what they're saying,
especially when they're involvedin Israel-Palestine or other,
you know, hot button issues.
And so, you know, we reachfaculty members to get in touch
with us if t hey feel they'refacing censorship and it's a
totally confidential, totallyfree process.
The faculty member's the onethat controls the whole part of
(18:16):
it.
And, you know, we're here tohelp'em in any way that we can.
And you know, our goal is to getthem teaching, get their jobs
back, get them back in theclassroom and doing what they do
best because, you know, they'rethe experts of what they do.
But we are the free speech,academic freedom people.
We wanna help any way that wecan.
Rachel (18:32):
Yeah.
That's great.
Well, thank you.
So today I think we're reallylooking at our keystone concepts
of exploring resources.
You know, I think here obviouslywe're always in that space or
often perhaps in that space ofthe faculty member is the
expert.
And obviously we should beexperts in our own disciplines
or in our own courses, but thereare just like we were talking
(18:54):
about earlier, there are timeswhere the best thing we might
say is, I don't know.
And so when we say, I don'tknow, maybe these are also
looking at things of, you know,what are some of the different
conversations going on abouthigher education?
What is academic freedom?
What does free speech look likein our teaching?
Where do I find resources?
Whether those are fIREresources, or sorry, Zach, maybe
(19:15):
other resources as well, um,certainly out there, other
things to read also.
But yeah, I think that's reallylooking at our keystone concept
today of, you know, how do weexplore and expand our own
knowledge on some of thesethings that might not always be
at the front of our day-to-day.
Zach (19:32):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
It's about getting the help theyneed to defend their rights.
And yeah, we want to ensure thatthey're able to do what they do
best.
Rachel (19:41):
Yeah.
All right.
Well, thank you so much for yourtime today.
I really appreciate it.
I appreciate the work that youdo and your giving your time to
this podcast to talk with ourfaculty, our instructors or
instructors broadly who might belistening.
So thank you so much for yourtime.
Zach (19:56):
Thank you for having me.
Best of luck with the rest ofthe semester.
Rachel (19:59):
Yeah.
Thank you.
Alright, and please catch ournext episodes.
We're posting every two weeks onKeystone Concepts in Teaching
during the fall and springsemesters, and you can find us
on most of your favorite podcastlistening platforms.
So thank you and I look forwardto catching you in another
episode.
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