September 19, 2025 • 24 mins
Ever wondered if your child is being gaslit by their other parent? Manipulated into questioning their own reality? You're not alone, and you're not being paranoid.
Gaslighting - that subtle psychological manipulation where someone makes you question your own perceptions and memories - can be devastating for children caught in high-conflict co-parenting situations. When a child starts doubting what they saw, heard, or felt, it undermines their entire sense of security and trust.
In this deep dive, I explain exactly what gaslighting looks like when children are involved. From denying promises ("I never said I'd take you for ice cream") to rewriting family history or undermining your rules, these manipulative tactics create confusion and anxiety for kids. The damage runs deep because it erodes their internal compass - that essential ability to trust their own experiences and feelings.
But not every disagreement or difficult moment with your ex qualifies as gaslighting. I'll help you distinguish between genuine differences in parenting approaches and true manipulation, because labeling everything as "gaslighting" only dilutes its meaning and can make it harder to address the real problem.
This episode lays the foundation for understanding this complex issue, while a future episode will focus specifically on how to protect your child from gaslighting. Because while you might not be able to change your ex's behavior, you absolutely can provide your child with the emotional safety and validation they need to stay gr
If you’re tired of every conversation with your ex turning into a fight, the High Conflict Communication Bootcamp for Moms is for you. In this self-paced 3 day online course, get scripts, strategies, and a workbook you can use right away, designed for moms in high-conflict co-parenting and parallel parenting. Enroll now for just $19 here.
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Kids First CoParenting System: NOW a MEMBERSHIP!!! If you are co-parenting with a narcissist, dealing with a manipulative ex, or feeling overwhelmed by high-conflict dynamics, you are not alone. These resources are designed to help you protect your child’s emotional health and take back control of your co-parenting experience.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to the Kids First co-parenting podcast the
podcast for smart, intentional,millennial moms raising
resilient kids after separationand divorce.
I'm Dr Carolyn Royster, a childpsychologist coach and a mom.
After thousands of therapyhours with kids caught in the
middle of high conflicthouseholds, I'm here to help
(00:27):
moms like you do it differently,from peaceful co-parenting to
total chaos.
I've got you here.
We talk boundaries, regulationand how to raise a great kid,
even if your ex is beyonddifficult.
We blend science with real lifeand, as always, keep the focus
where it matters, on raisinggreat kids.
This is Kids First Co-Parenting.
(00:49):
Welcome to this episode of theKids First Co-Parenting podcast.
Today we are diving deep intoeveryone's favorite topic
gaslighting.
Not really everyone's favoritetopic, but a very, very common
concern in difficultco-parenting dynamics is how to
(01:16):
protect kids from gaslightingand what it is and what it isn't
.
It's one of those terms, y'allthat is thrown around a lot and
sometimes I'm like, is that whatwe call that?
I'm not always so sure, but Ido think it's really important
to understand it, because it isdefinitely part of the dynamic
(01:41):
when things are tense.
That's what we're going to talka little bit about today.
You have heard this word.
I'm sure it gets thrown arounda lot in high-conflict
co-parenting, but what does itactually look like when kids are
involved?
What does it feel like?
In this episode, we're going toreally focus on what
(02:04):
gaslighting is, also what it isnot.
We're going to talk about whatit looks like when kids are
involved.
In another future episode, wewill dive deeper on what you
need to do to protect your childfrom gaslighting.
Okay, the reason these areseparated is that they're very
(02:26):
big topics.
They're very important topics.
Protecting your child fromgaslighting is, you know, a very
big deal, and so we need tostart first with some of the
basics and really make surethat's what we're talking about.
So, if you're listening to thisin the future and you're like,
yeah, yeah, I know what it is, Istill encourage you to listen,
(02:48):
listen through it, because youmay learn some parts or have a
little reflection moment maybeof oh, I thought that was
gaslighting and I've beenthinking of it that way, but
it's really not.
Likewise, if you've skippedahead and you've been like, I
need to know how to protect mykid from this Great Love where
your head's at, make sure youspend some time coming back and
(03:11):
laying the foundation.
In other words.
You should probably listen toboth the episodes.
Okay, which is great.
You should listen to all theepisodes.
They're very helpful, all right.
So let's dive in my friends.
Lots of times what I haveexperienced in this situation is
that moms start to sort ofwonder if their kiddo is being
(03:38):
gaslit, manipulated or poisonedagainst them.
You can use this phrase and youhave probably heard this phrase
used in grown-up relationships,as a child psychologist would
say.
So, in marriages or in marriagetherapy, in divorce work, a lot
(04:01):
of moms will talk about theexperience of they themselves
feeling as though they weregaslit, that they went through
this experience with theirco-parent, and so then it
becomes this issue of they didit to me, why would they not do
it to my kid?
And we get real nervous aboutit, and there is good reason to
(04:24):
be really nervous about it.
You're not being paranoid,which, of course, if you have a
really fun, toxic co-parent,they're going to tell you that
You're being paranoid and you'remaking a big deal out of
nothing.
However, the research is veryclear on how long-term emotional
invalidation, rather thanvalidation, can impact kids and
(04:47):
how it really can be verydamaging to their emotional and
mental health.
It is an important topic.
It is an important issue toaddress if it's happening.
Gaslighting is especiallydangerous for children because
it really undermines that coresense of what is true and what
is safe and what is real.
When kids start to questionwhat's real, who can they trust?
(05:10):
Who's telling them the truth?
That affects their emotionalsecurity.
When that gets affected, westart to see all kinds of issues
glow downstream from that.
On the flip side, it is reallyimportant to recognize that not
every difficult moment with yourco-parent is gaslighting.
(05:32):
Not every situation ismanipulation.
Not every gaslighting momentreaches the bar of something
like poisoning or alienation.
Overlabeling,over-pathologizing, overly
getting concerned can reallyoverwhelm you and cause a lot of
worry and anxiety for not veryproductive outcomes, but it can
(05:55):
also really confuse your child.
The point of this episode isfor you to think through what's
actually happening.
How do I avoid these kind ofcommon areas where moms get it
wrong and how do I work towardsstaying really steady for my
kiddo?
This is kind of an observingepisode where you're learning
(06:18):
about something and then I wantyou to take it and observe in
your own life and in your ownpattern of things how it feels
and how it looks.
What is gaslighting.
What is the broadest definitionof that word?
I talk about this all the time.
Gaslighting comes from a film.
If I was more organized I wouldhave looked up the exact date
(06:42):
of it.
I think it's from the 50s.
I could be wrong.
I think it has a famous actress, ingrid Bergman, in it, and the
story of the film is that itwas during the time of oil or
kerosene lamps.
I don't know if that's adifferent thing or the same
thing, but it was during thetime of gas lamps, gas-powered
(07:04):
lamps, the exact gas.
I don't know Again.
Maybe should have researchedthis.
Anyways, it was during the timewhen people had these in their
house and what was happening wasin this marriage, every night
the man would turn down the gasoil lamp thing so that it would
(07:27):
burn slightly less bright.
And when the wife in thissituation would notice that and
comment gosh, it seems a littlemore dim in here, or are you
noticing something with thelights?
He would say no, it's just asbright as always in here.
Okay, over time the wife inthis scenario starts to really
(07:50):
question why she thinks thelights are getting dimmer when
they're not, and she starts toreally wonder about that
experience for herself and itmakes her question her own
judgment and question her ownthoughts and feelings and what
she's literally seeing in theworld.
Thus, my dears, is where thedefinition of gaslighting comes
(08:13):
from.
If this husband had just takenand turned the lights off, it
would have been, and it wouldhave been ludicrous for the wife
to start being like, yeah, it'sbright in here when the lights
are actually freaking off.
However, when you do it slowly,it gets a little bit easier to
(08:37):
chip away at her sense of whatshe knows to be true and
eventually she feels crazy whenshe's sitting in the damn dark
because she thinks it's dark.
This is where the phrasegaslighting comes from, like
literal gaslights, okay, y'all,and so it's.
What are the important takeawaysfrom the film?
(09:00):
The film shows us that it'ssubtle, that it's often done in
situations of isolation.
The husband didn't have a greatsocial support, neither did the
wife.
There's nobody around sittingnext to her going like, yeah, it
is a little bit dark in here.
Like, can we turn up theselights?
I can't do my stitching, orwhatever they did during this
(09:21):
time period of which I don'tknow.
No checks and balances.
Well, this is a very long wayof telling you and illustrating
where this phrase kind of comesfrom, and it is important that
you know that because it tellsus a little bit about how it
works.
Highly recommend the movie ifyou haven't seen it.
What does this look like forchildren?
(09:43):
How does this show up for kids?
What does it really look likewith kids?
Children how does this show upfor kids?
What does it really look likewith kids?
It happens in a variety of ways, but it typically kind of falls
into these categories ofundermining the co -parent, in
this case, undermining you.
You don't need to listen toyour mom's rules, or that's a
(10:06):
silly thing to have a rule about.
It's fine if you have techuntil you fall asleep tonight.
It can be that it can beshifting blame.
You know, the reason we can'tgo out to dinner tonight is
because I have to pay all thesupport to your mom.
That's not actually shiftingblame, that's kind of just
outright blame.
It's not taking accountability,or shifting blame would be.
You know I'm sorry you're soupset about that, but if you
(10:29):
hadn't been not listening Iwouldn't have had to yell.
So it's not takingaccountability for your part in
what happened.
What does this look like?
Mom's lying that didn't happen,denying that something was
promised or suggested, making achild like question their memory
.
An example of that would besomething like I never said I'd
(10:50):
pick you up on Friday and thekid's like wait, yeah, you did.
Like I swear you said thatRewriting family history, the
divorce, was mom's fault.
Basically, the move here is tomake the kid feel confused.
Move here is to make the kidfeel confused, make them feel
not sturdy in what they know tobe true and to start doubting
(12:25):
their own thoughts and feelings.
Many times we see this play outvery effectively, I might add,
in areas that could be a mistake.
The example that I gave of youknow I never said I was going to
pick you up on Friday.
Or I never said I was going totake you out for ice cream after
the soccer game.
What are you talking about?
And it works because you as aperson, as a mom, as the partner
(12:48):
, the former partner or thechild may think to themselves
huh, I must have misheard thatthe first few times it happens.
Or yeah, I'm so silly Like Iget that stuff wrong all the
time, or I didn't write it down,so of course I must have just
misheard.
It works because it's somethingthat's subtle enough that
(13:09):
you're like did I?
Did he say that?
I don't know, maybe I missed itwhy?
Because you're like a goodperson who's trying to avoid
conflict and knows that we'reall human and sometimes we make
mistakes.
That's a gaslighter's move is totake advantage of that insight
and awareness that you may have.
(13:30):
I chuckle because that's likejust so sad and just really I
don't know.
It's just kind of like it's sadthat someone would want to take
advantage of somebody wantingto work collaboratively with you
.
The piece that's helpful aboutthis is that it's usually not
super conscious.
(13:50):
A difficult co-parent or atoxic ex or a narcissistic
person is not usually like I'mgoing to manipulate and exploit
how forgiving she is onscheduling or how disorganized
she is when she doesn't writesomething down.
Sometimes they are.
Sometimes there is that thought.
Lots of times it's more thiskind of unconscious or not
(14:14):
reflected or not known to themneed to have power and control.
That plays out.
It's sort of like they find thecracks and they're really good
at finding the cracks.
They intuitively know where toexploit.
Okay, it's really kind of afascinating and someday we
should do a deep dive on likewhy do people gaslight?
(14:36):
Like how does that happen?
How do you get to a place whereyou're a narcissist, or how do
you get to a place where you're,like, so hurtful to the people
that are literally taking careof your children, or are your
children, you know, as a parent,that's hard to wrap my mind
around.
What does this do to kids, andwhy are we so concerned about it
(14:57):
?
Well, the biggest thing is thatit really erodes their internal
compass of what is true, ofwhat is right, of what they feel
, of what they know.
Take the ice cream example.
They've been looking forward tothat.
They're excited about it.
They know that you said you'dtake them to ice cream.
I mean trust.
(15:17):
No child gets promised somethinglike ice cream and then is like
oh I totally forgot about it.
Usually, they're really excitedabout it.
They don't mishear.
You say something exciting,excited about it.
They don't mishear.
You say something exciting, andso they're looking forward to
it, and then it doesn't happen,and maybe once or twice yeah, I
get it.
Little sister got sick, we hadto go home.
(15:40):
It's not a big deal, but verysoon you are going to start to
hear things from kids.
Yeah, you always say that, andwe never do it.
What it does, then, is itcreates a child that doesn't
believe you and doesn't trustyou.
What a gaslighter does is,instead of taking accountability
for their own response in thatsituation and their own promise
(16:01):
that they then had to break,they put it on the person and in
this case, the child, insteadof your sister got sick and we
had to go home.
Or I never intended to take youfor ice cream, I just said that
to get you out of the car,which is mean, by the way, they
would say something like I neversaid that You're misremembering
.
That, obviously, is going toalso erode trust in the parent.
(16:26):
But what it does that's soharmful is it erodes the child's
trust in themselves.
Right, I'm going to say thatagain in a different way.
It creates doubt.
It creates doubt in what theyheard, what they saw, what they
experienced.
When you create doubt like that, you create anxiety, and I'm
(16:48):
not necessarily saying ananxiety disorder, although this
is ripe, fertile ground for thatto grow.
You create a kid that thendoesn't know what to trust, and
it's especially harmful becausethe thing they're worried they
can't trust is themselves and,as we know, that's going to
cause a lot of problems down theroad.
It also creates a loyalty bindwithin your child.
(17:11):
So it has a situation.
It creates a situation in whichthe kid is like I don't know
who's telling me the truth.
I can't figure out who is beinghonest and who is not here, and
that's a real problem for me.
Of course it is, of course itis.
They want to know.
Dad's saying he never said we'dgo to ice cream and you're
saying you did say we'd go toice cream.
(17:33):
Who is lying to me?
Who is not being honest with me?
Not a position that I want youever to be in.
Let's talk a tiny bit about whatis not gaslighting, and I'm not
going to say that these are nothurtful or harmful things,
because they are, but they arenot necessarily gaslighting and
(17:57):
so you want to be careful about,like throwing that accusation
around if that's not accuratelydescribing the situation.
So what is not gaslighting?
Just disagreeing with eachother?
You can look at the same pieceof information and see it two
very different ways and in factyou likely will and just having
a different perspective onsomething is not gaslighting in
(18:19):
itself.
The difference is thegaslighting has to flow down
towards the child.
(18:50):
You can think that soccer is agreat sport for them and that
they need the physical movement.
They're happier kids when theyget to do it.
They love it.
You can think it's reallyimportant.
Your co-parent can disagree andthink, gosh, I really think
that that's gonna overschedulethem and it's gonna be too much
(19:10):
and I'm not totally sure we canafford it.
That's just a disagreement.
One person saying I think weshould do this, one person
saying I don't agree.
And here are my concerns.
That's not trying to gaslighteach other.
The difference is that it'sfactual, it's focused on the kid
and no one's trying toundermine each other's reality.
(19:31):
Just genuine plain old.
I just forgot.
I just honestly I was sostressed about all the things we
have to do tomorrow that I justdrove home and I forgot to take
you to ice cream, and I'm realsorry.
That's not gaslighting.
The gaslighting piece comes inwhen we try to go back and
change the facts being difficult, refusing to compromise or
(19:57):
stonewalling.
Stonewalling is a phrase ofshutting down, not saying what
you mean, just not engaging.
While it is frustrating andirritating as a co-parent, it is
not the same as gaslighting.
Again, gaslighting is messingwith the facts.
It's messing with someone'sreality, their emotional
(20:19):
experience of a situation.
Just disagreeing or refusing tocompromise and just being like
I just do not agree with you.
I do not see it that way andyou can't make me.
Is not necessarily them tryingto gaslight you?
If we call everythinggaslighting, then we call
(20:39):
nothing gaslighting.
In other words, if you callevery behavior that you don't
like gaslighting, then we callnothing gaslighting.
In other words, if you callevery behavior that you don't
like gaslighting, then you'rediluting the meaning of the term
and the seriousness of theissue and you can make it
inadvertently a little bitharder for your kid to know
what's actually going on andwhat does it really really mean
(21:00):
Gaslighting of you as a parent?
And if you have been in asituation where with this person
, where you feel like I wasreally gaslighted by this person
, it was really toxic, it wasvery manipulative, then you have
a lot of reason to be watchingand monitoring and making sure
(21:21):
that your child is not alsoexperiencing it.
But you have pretty goodevidence to suggest that they
will or they might be at somepoint, and so I do think it's
important for you to understandand really explore what it means
, what it looks like and why weget so worried about it as folks
(21:43):
that work with these kids inthe long term, because
gaslighting is very real and itcan be very damaging.
Not every co-parenting moment isgaslighting or qualifies as
gaslighting, but if it'shappening then you really need
to have the tools to providethat emotional safety for your
(22:05):
kid and that steadiness and theability to quote, unquote
protect them.
And when I say protect them, Idon't necessarily mean that
you're going to prevent thegaslighting from happening,
because, honestly, if you couldget this person to stop trying
to manipulate people, youprobably wouldn't have separated
(22:26):
from them.
You probably would have donethat already.
We kind of operate under theassumption that you're going to
need to work within this toxicsystem, which is so sad to think
about.
I have to send my kid into anenvironment that feels really
toxic and yucky.
I am with you in that.
I know how that experience isfor moms.
That's, everyone in the KidsFirst program is experiencing
(22:50):
that, and my job and what I doso well is help moms know how to
support their kid going in andout of that environment in a way
that is really very founded inwhat we know to be true and what
I know to do to be true, as youknow decades of working not
decades, I'm not that old butthousands of hours of working
(23:12):
with these kids as they go inand out of these situations and
tons and tons of moms within theKids First community having the
same experience and what worksand what doesn't.
If you think that you couldreally bolster up and use a
little more skills around how doI handle manipulative
communication, either to medirectly or through my child you
(23:37):
need to really seriouslyconsider the High Conflict
Communication Bootcamp for Moms.
It's three days.
You gain a lot of confidenceand skills and the legit tools
that actually help you managethis.
That is what I would suggestfor you.
Thanks so much for listening tothis episode of Kids First
(23:57):
Co-Parenting.
The best way you can supportthe show is by following, rating
and reviewing wherever youlisten to podcasts and by
sharing it with another mom whocould use the support.
You can also connect with me onInstagram and Facebook at Learn
With Little House, where Ishare daily tips and
encouragement for moms raisingkids through high conflict,
(24:18):
divorce and if you're ready togo deep and get more tools,
scripts, personalized supportand coaching, come join us
inside the Kids FirstCo-Parenting Community.
You'll find the details atlearnwithlittlehousecom.
Until next time, remember yourkids don't need you to be
perfect.
They just need you to be steadyand grounded and, as always, to
(24:39):
put them first.
Thanks for being here.
Welcome to the Kids First co-parenting podcast the
podcast for smart, intentional,millennial moms raising
resilient kids after separationand divorce.
I'm Dr Carolyn Royster, a childpsychologist coach and a mom.
After thousands of therapyhours with kids caught in the
middle of high conflicthouseholds, I'm here to help
(00:27):
moms like you do it differently,from peaceful co-parenting to
total chaos.
I've got you here.
We talk boundaries, regulationand how to raise a great kid,
even if your ex is beyonddifficult.
We blend science with real lifeand, as always, keep the focus
where it matters, on raisinggreat kids.
This is Kids First Co-Parenting.
(00:49):
Welcome to this episode of theKids First Co-Parenting podcast.
Today we are diving deep intoeveryone's favorite topic
gaslighting.
Not really everyone's favoritetopic, but a very, very common
concern in difficultco-parenting dynamics is how to
(01:16):
protect kids from gaslightingand what it is and what it isn't
.
It's one of those terms, y'allthat is thrown around a lot and
sometimes I'm like, is that whatwe call that?
I'm not always so sure, but Ido think it's really important
to understand it, because it isdefinitely part of the dynamic
(01:41):
when things are tense.
That's what we're going to talka little bit about today.
You have heard this word.
I'm sure it gets thrown arounda lot in high-conflict
co-parenting, but what does itactually look like when kids are
involved?
What does it feel like?
In this episode, we're going toreally focus on what
(02:04):
gaslighting is, also what it isnot.
We're going to talk about whatit looks like when kids are
involved.
In another future episode, wewill dive deeper on what you
need to do to protect your childfrom gaslighting.
Okay, the reason these areseparated is that they're very
(02:26):
big topics.
They're very important topics.
Protecting your child fromgaslighting is, you know, a very
big deal, and so we need tostart first with some of the
basics and really make surethat's what we're talking about.
So, if you're listening to thisin the future and you're like,
yeah, yeah, I know what it is, Istill encourage you to listen,
(02:48):
listen through it, because youmay learn some parts or have a
little reflection moment maybeof oh, I thought that was
gaslighting and I've beenthinking of it that way, but
it's really not.
Likewise, if you've skippedahead and you've been like, I
need to know how to protect mykid from this Great Love where
your head's at, make sure youspend some time coming back and
(03:11):
laying the foundation.
In other words.
You should probably listen toboth the episodes.
Okay, which is great.
You should listen to all theepisodes.
They're very helpful, all right.
So let's dive in my friends.
Lots of times what I haveexperienced in this situation is
that moms start to sort ofwonder if their kiddo is being
(03:38):
gaslit, manipulated or poisonedagainst them.
You can use this phrase and youhave probably heard this phrase
used in grown-up relationships,as a child psychologist would
say.
So, in marriages or in marriagetherapy, in divorce work, a lot
(04:01):
of moms will talk about theexperience of they themselves
feeling as though they weregaslit, that they went through
this experience with theirco-parent, and so then it
becomes this issue of they didit to me, why would they not do
it to my kid?
And we get real nervous aboutit, and there is good reason to
(04:24):
be really nervous about it.
You're not being paranoid,which, of course, if you have a
really fun, toxic co-parent,they're going to tell you that
You're being paranoid and you'remaking a big deal out of
nothing.
However, the research is veryclear on how long-term emotional
invalidation, rather thanvalidation, can impact kids and
(04:47):
how it really can be verydamaging to their emotional and
mental health.
It is an important topic.
It is an important issue toaddress if it's happening.
Gaslighting is especiallydangerous for children because
it really undermines that coresense of what is true and what
is safe and what is real.
When kids start to questionwhat's real, who can they trust?
(05:10):
Who's telling them the truth?
That affects their emotionalsecurity.
When that gets affected, westart to see all kinds of issues
glow downstream from that.
On the flip side, it is reallyimportant to recognize that not
every difficult moment with yourco-parent is gaslighting.
(05:32):
Not every situation ismanipulation.
Not every gaslighting momentreaches the bar of something
like poisoning or alienation.
Overlabeling,over-pathologizing, overly
getting concerned can reallyoverwhelm you and cause a lot of
worry and anxiety for not veryproductive outcomes, but it can
(05:55):
also really confuse your child.
The point of this episode isfor you to think through what's
actually happening.
How do I avoid these kind ofcommon areas where moms get it
wrong and how do I work towardsstaying really steady for my
kiddo?
This is kind of an observingepisode where you're learning
(06:18):
about something and then I wantyou to take it and observe in
your own life and in your ownpattern of things how it feels
and how it looks.
What is gaslighting.
What is the broadest definitionof that word?
I talk about this all the time.
Gaslighting comes from a film.
If I was more organized I wouldhave looked up the exact date
(06:42):
of it.
I think it's from the 50s.
I could be wrong.
I think it has a famous actress, ingrid Bergman, in it, and the
story of the film is that itwas during the time of oil or
kerosene lamps.
I don't know if that's adifferent thing or the same
thing, but it was during thetime of gas lamps, gas-powered
(07:04):
lamps, the exact gas.
I don't know Again.
Maybe should have researchedthis.
Anyways, it was during the timewhen people had these in their
house and what was happening wasin this marriage, every night
the man would turn down the gasoil lamp thing so that it would
(07:27):
burn slightly less bright.
And when the wife in thissituation would notice that and
comment gosh, it seems a littlemore dim in here, or are you
noticing something with thelights?
He would say no, it's just asbright as always in here.
Okay, over time the wife inthis scenario starts to really
(07:50):
question why she thinks thelights are getting dimmer when
they're not, and she starts toreally wonder about that
experience for herself and itmakes her question her own
judgment and question her ownthoughts and feelings and what
she's literally seeing in theworld.
Thus, my dears, is where thedefinition of gaslighting comes
(08:13):
from.
If this husband had just takenand turned the lights off, it
would have been, and it wouldhave been ludicrous for the wife
to start being like, yeah, it'sbright in here when the lights
are actually freaking off.
However, when you do it slowly,it gets a little bit easier to
(08:37):
chip away at her sense of whatshe knows to be true and
eventually she feels crazy whenshe's sitting in the damn dark
because she thinks it's dark.
This is where the phrasegaslighting comes from, like
literal gaslights, okay, y'all,and so it's.
What are the important takeawaysfrom the film?
(09:00):
The film shows us that it'ssubtle, that it's often done in
situations of isolation.
The husband didn't have a greatsocial support, neither did the
wife.
There's nobody around sittingnext to her going like, yeah, it
is a little bit dark in here.
Like, can we turn up theselights?
I can't do my stitching, orwhatever they did during this
(09:21):
time period of which I don'tknow.
No checks and balances.
Well, this is a very long wayof telling you and illustrating
where this phrase kind of comesfrom, and it is important that
you know that because it tellsus a little bit about how it
works.
Highly recommend the movie ifyou haven't seen it.
What does this look like forchildren?
(09:43):
How does this show up for kids?
What does it really look likewith kids?
Children how does this show upfor kids?
What does it really look likewith kids?
It happens in a variety of ways, but it typically kind of falls
into these categories ofundermining the co -parent, in
this case, undermining you.
You don't need to listen toyour mom's rules, or that's a
(10:06):
silly thing to have a rule about.
It's fine if you have techuntil you fall asleep tonight.
It can be that it can beshifting blame.
You know, the reason we can'tgo out to dinner tonight is
because I have to pay all thesupport to your mom.
That's not actually shiftingblame, that's kind of just
outright blame.
It's not taking accountability,or shifting blame would be.
You know I'm sorry you're soupset about that, but if you
(10:29):
hadn't been not listening Iwouldn't have had to yell.
So it's not takingaccountability for your part in
what happened.
What does this look like?
Mom's lying that didn't happen,denying that something was
promised or suggested, making achild like question their memory
.
An example of that would besomething like I never said I'd
(10:50):
pick you up on Friday and thekid's like wait, yeah, you did.
Like I swear you said thatRewriting family history, the
divorce, was mom's fault.
Basically, the move here is tomake the kid feel confused.
Move here is to make the kidfeel confused, make them feel
not sturdy in what they know tobe true and to start doubting
(12:25):
their own thoughts and feelings.
Many times we see this play outvery effectively, I might add,
in areas that could be a mistake.
The example that I gave of youknow I never said I was going to
pick you up on Friday.
Or I never said I was going totake you out for ice cream after
the soccer game.
What are you talking about?
And it works because you as aperson, as a mom, as the partner
(12:48):
, the former partner or thechild may think to themselves
huh, I must have misheard thatthe first few times it happens.
Or yeah, I'm so silly Like Iget that stuff wrong all the
time, or I didn't write it down,so of course I must have just
misheard.
It works because it's somethingthat's subtle enough that
(13:09):
you're like did I?
Did he say that?
I don't know, maybe I missed itwhy?
Because you're like a goodperson who's trying to avoid
conflict and knows that we'reall human and sometimes we make
mistakes.
That's a gaslighter's move is totake advantage of that insight
and awareness that you may have.
(13:30):
I chuckle because that's likejust so sad and just really I
don't know.
It's just kind of like it's sadthat someone would want to take
advantage of somebody wantingto work collaboratively with you
.
The piece that's helpful aboutthis is that it's usually not
super conscious.
(13:50):
A difficult co-parent or atoxic ex or a narcissistic
person is not usually like I'mgoing to manipulate and exploit
how forgiving she is onscheduling or how disorganized
she is when she doesn't writesomething down.
Sometimes they are.
Sometimes there is that thought.
Lots of times it's more thiskind of unconscious or not
(14:14):
reflected or not known to themneed to have power and control.
That plays out.
It's sort of like they find thecracks and they're really good
at finding the cracks.
They intuitively know where toexploit.
Okay, it's really kind of afascinating and someday we
should do a deep dive on likewhy do people gaslight?
(14:36):
Like how does that happen?
How do you get to a place whereyou're a narcissist, or how do
you get to a place where you're,like, so hurtful to the people
that are literally taking careof your children, or are your
children, you know, as a parent,that's hard to wrap my mind
around.
What does this do to kids, andwhy are we so concerned about it
(14:57):
?
Well, the biggest thing is thatit really erodes their internal
compass of what is true, ofwhat is right, of what they feel
, of what they know.
Take the ice cream example.
They've been looking forward tothat.
They're excited about it.
They know that you said you'dtake them to ice cream.
I mean trust.
(15:17):
No child gets promised somethinglike ice cream and then is like
oh I totally forgot about it.
Usually, they're really excitedabout it.
They don't mishear.
You say something exciting,excited about it.
They don't mishear.
You say something exciting, andso they're looking forward to
it, and then it doesn't happen,and maybe once or twice yeah, I
get it.
Little sister got sick, we hadto go home.
(15:40):
It's not a big deal, but verysoon you are going to start to
hear things from kids.
Yeah, you always say that, andwe never do it.
What it does, then, is itcreates a child that doesn't
believe you and doesn't trustyou.
What a gaslighter does is,instead of taking accountability
for their own response in thatsituation and their own promise
(16:01):
that they then had to break,they put it on the person and in
this case, the child, insteadof your sister got sick and we
had to go home.
Or I never intended to take youfor ice cream, I just said that
to get you out of the car,which is mean, by the way, they
would say something like I neversaid that You're misremembering
.
That, obviously, is going toalso erode trust in the parent.
(16:26):
But what it does that's soharmful is it erodes the child's
trust in themselves.
Right, I'm going to say thatagain in a different way.
It creates doubt.
It creates doubt in what theyheard, what they saw, what they
experienced.
When you create doubt like that, you create anxiety, and I'm
(16:48):
not necessarily saying ananxiety disorder, although this
is ripe, fertile ground for thatto grow.
You create a kid that thendoesn't know what to trust, and
it's especially harmful becausethe thing they're worried they
can't trust is themselves and,as we know, that's going to
cause a lot of problems down theroad.
It also creates a loyalty bindwithin your child.
(17:11):
So it has a situation.
It creates a situation in whichthe kid is like I don't know
who's telling me the truth.
I can't figure out who is beinghonest and who is not here, and
that's a real problem for me.
Of course it is, of course itis.
They want to know.
Dad's saying he never said we'dgo to ice cream and you're
saying you did say we'd go toice cream.
(17:33):
Who is lying to me?
Who is not being honest with me?
Not a position that I want youever to be in.
Let's talk a tiny bit about whatis not gaslighting, and I'm not
going to say that these are nothurtful or harmful things,
because they are, but they arenot necessarily gaslighting and
(17:57):
so you want to be careful about,like throwing that accusation
around if that's not accuratelydescribing the situation.
So what is not gaslighting?
Just disagreeing with eachother?
You can look at the same pieceof information and see it two
very different ways and in factyou likely will and just having
a different perspective onsomething is not gaslighting in
(18:19):
itself.
The difference is thegaslighting has to flow down
towards the child.
(18:50):
You can think that soccer is agreat sport for them and that
they need the physical movement.
They're happier kids when theyget to do it.
They love it.
You can think it's reallyimportant.
Your co-parent can disagree andthink, gosh, I really think
that that's gonna overschedulethem and it's gonna be too much
(19:10):
and I'm not totally sure we canafford it.
That's just a disagreement.
One person saying I think weshould do this, one person
saying I don't agree.
And here are my concerns.
That's not trying to gaslighteach other.
The difference is that it'sfactual, it's focused on the kid
and no one's trying toundermine each other's reality.
(19:31):
Just genuine plain old.
I just forgot.
I just honestly I was sostressed about all the things we
have to do tomorrow that I justdrove home and I forgot to take
you to ice cream, and I'm realsorry.
That's not gaslighting.
The gaslighting piece comes inwhen we try to go back and
change the facts being difficult, refusing to compromise or
(19:57):
stonewalling.
Stonewalling is a phrase ofshutting down, not saying what
you mean, just not engaging.
While it is frustrating andirritating as a co-parent, it is
not the same as gaslighting.
Again, gaslighting is messingwith the facts.
It's messing with someone'sreality, their emotional
(20:19):
experience of a situation.
Just disagreeing or refusing tocompromise and just being like
I just do not agree with you.
I do not see it that way andyou can't make me.
Is not necessarily them tryingto gaslight you?
If we call everythinggaslighting, then we call
(20:39):
nothing gaslighting.
In other words, if you callevery behavior that you don't
like gaslighting, then we callnothing gaslighting.
In other words, if you callevery behavior that you don't
like gaslighting, then you'rediluting the meaning of the term
and the seriousness of theissue and you can make it
inadvertently a little bitharder for your kid to know
what's actually going on andwhat does it really really mean
(21:00):
Gaslighting of you as a parent?
And if you have been in asituation where with this person
, where you feel like I wasreally gaslighted by this person
, it was really toxic, it wasvery manipulative, then you have
a lot of reason to be watchingand monitoring and making sure
(21:21):
that your child is not alsoexperiencing it.
But you have pretty goodevidence to suggest that they
will or they might be at somepoint, and so I do think it's
important for you to understandand really explore what it means
, what it looks like and why weget so worried about it as folks
(21:43):
that work with these kids inthe long term, because
gaslighting is very real and itcan be very damaging.
Not every co-parenting moment isgaslighting or qualifies as
gaslighting, but if it'shappening then you really need
to have the tools to providethat emotional safety for your
(22:05):
kid and that steadiness and theability to quote, unquote
protect them.
And when I say protect them, Idon't necessarily mean that
you're going to prevent thegaslighting from happening,
because, honestly, if you couldget this person to stop trying
to manipulate people, youprobably wouldn't have separated
(22:26):
from them.
You probably would have donethat already.
We kind of operate under theassumption that you're going to
need to work within this toxicsystem, which is so sad to think
about.
I have to send my kid into anenvironment that feels really
toxic and yucky.
I am with you in that.
I know how that experience isfor moms.
That's, everyone in the KidsFirst program is experiencing
(22:50):
that, and my job and what I doso well is help moms know how to
support their kid going in andout of that environment in a way
that is really very founded inwhat we know to be true and what
I know to do to be true, as youknow decades of working not
decades, I'm not that old butthousands of hours of working
(23:12):
with these kids as they go inand out of these situations and
tons and tons of moms within theKids First community having the
same experience and what worksand what doesn't.
If you think that you couldreally bolster up and use a
little more skills around how doI handle manipulative
communication, either to medirectly or through my child you
(23:37):
need to really seriouslyconsider the High Conflict
Communication Bootcamp for Moms.
It's three days.
You gain a lot of confidenceand skills and the legit tools
that actually help you managethis.
That is what I would suggestfor you.
Thanks so much for listening tothis episode of Kids First
(23:57):
Co-Parenting.
The best way you can supportthe show is by following, rating
and reviewing wherever youlisten to podcasts and by
sharing it with another mom whocould use the support.
You can also connect with me onInstagram and Facebook at Learn
With Little House, where Ishare daily tips and
encouragement for moms raisingkids through high conflict,
(24:18):
divorce and if you're ready togo deep and get more tools,
scripts, personalized supportand coaching, come join us
inside the Kids FirstCo-Parenting Community.
You'll find the details atlearnwithlittlehousecom.
Until next time, remember yourkids don't need you to be
perfect.
They just need you to be steadyand grounded and, as always, to
(24:39):
put them first.
Thanks for being here.
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