Kingdom Talk! with Peter Tsukahira

Episode Transcript
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Mark Banyard (00:09):
Welcome to Kingdom talk, the podcast where we talk
all about things kingdom. I'myour host, Mark Banyard, and
I'll be interviewing a varietyof people who through their
lives and ministries have beencommitted to advancing the

kingdom of God (00:23):
church planters, church leaders, pioneers of
missions and ministries both athome as well as abroad. So let's
go straight to today's episodeof Kingdom talk.

(00:47):
My guest today is PeterTsukahira. Peter is a Japanese
American who has pioneeredchurches in both Japan and
Israel. As cofounders of MountCarmel congregation, Peter and
his wife Rita continue tominister in Israel where they
have lived for the last 35years. Peter, welcome to the

(01:08):
show.

Peter Tsukahira (01:09):
Thank you, Mark, I'm glad to be with you.

Well, I'm delighted to have you today. And
I'm really looking forward toour conversation. We had a
chance to chat about a week orso ago. And it was so good that
I couldn't wait until today. SoI'm looking forward to what the
Lord is going to do through youand through our conversation;
and, as we just prayed, that hewould say exactly through you

(01:33):
what our listeners need to hear.
So I'm going to begin by justasking you some basic questions
about where you were born, howyou came to faith, the early
beginnings of your life - bothearthly life and spiritual life.

Okay, well, Mark, first of all, I'm a
Japanese American Israeli. And Ioften describe myself as a
person who looks Japanese, Ihave an American sounding voice,
and today an Israeli passport.

Wow, you're an unusual fellow.

Well, I was born in the city of Boston in
1950. Okay. My parents were thechildren of immigrants from
Japan. So it was my grandparentswho immigrated to the US from
Japan over 100 years ago. Theysettled in California. My
parents were born there and wentthrough the Second World War as

(02:36):
Japanese Americans. My fatherwas a became a history
professor. He taught theJapanese language to American
military intelligence during thewar, okay. And then received his
doctorate from HarvardUniversity after the war. And I

(02:58):
was born in Boston, because hewas finishing his studies. After
that, he decided not to pursueacademia, and became a diplomat
for the United Statesgovernment. And in the 19, early
1960s, we were sent as a familyto Japan. And so I, I actually

(03:19):
grew up as this kind of aforeigner in in Japan, in the
1960s.

Was there any Japanese spoken in the house?

Yeah, my parents spoke Japanese when they
didn't want us to understand.
But it was not the primarylanguage. They wanted us to be
English speaking, my sister andI. And their hope was that we
would go to Americanuniversities and be a part of
American culture.

So when you got to Japan, you were you were really
in every way an English speakingAmerican arriving in Japan.

That's correct.
I looked exactly like everybodyelse. But I was a complete
foreigner.

Was that harder for you, perhaps than it would
have been for me?

It was, there was a difficulty. However, it
was kind of a privileged statusbecause we were Americans. Japan
had lost the war. They wererestructuring, recovering,
trying to become a prosperous,modern nation back in the 1960s.

(04:29):
People may not remember but MADEIN JAPAN meant poor quality,
right. After graduating fromhigh school, I went back to a
university, again in the Bostonarea. And this was in late
1960s. So it was the height ofthe Vietnam War. And the
counterculture. My parents werenot born again believers. I

(04:52):
certainly was not. It was a verydark, a confusing and chaotic
time in America, in history, butalso just for me personally. I
came back to the United Statesthinking that maybe I was
returning home. But America wasno longer my home. And so I was

(05:13):
like a foreigner again, in theUnited States. So it was very
difficult. I fell into just aterrible time of confusion. It
was drugs, rock and roll music.
And I didn't do well in school,obviously. But it was, it was

(05:33):
through the death, actually, bysuicide of my best friend, that
really shook me out of that, Irealized that I had to find some
truths if I was going to surviveand and live some type of
meaningful life.

What year was that?

That was, by then it was the very early 1970s
- 1973.

And your friend died.

My friend died.
And that was the last straw. SoI I left Boston, I hitchhiked to
New Mexico, and tried to startmy life over again, as a kind of
a spiritual refugee. I wasmaking adobe bricks outside of
the city of Santa Fe, really, MyJewish girlfriend came to visit
me. And she got picked uphitchhiking by a woman who took

(06:30):
her to a coffee house ministrycalled Shalom. And there she
heard the testimony of a Jewishman who, like us, had been part
of this hippie counterculturegeneration, like us had
encountered tragedy, and hadbeen brought to the Lord. And he
was invited to give histestimony that night. The first

(06:51):
time he'd ever spoken, a Jewishman. Yes. Well...
So he gave his testimony. He hadbeen raised in California, from
a Jewish family and then hadbeen confronted with Jesus at
the, you know, in the darknessof his despair, came to the

(07:13):
Lord, told his testimony for thefirst night, first time that
night, and my girlfriend gotsaved.

Wow. Praise the Lord!

She wasn't fully aware of what had
happened. But I knew within 24hours, she was completely
different. And so within twoweeks, I wanted to meet the
people that she had met. Andthey led me to the Lord.

Wonderful. So this was - I bet you didn't see that
coming.

It was really completely unexpected. We had
tried everything. Back in thosedays, there was a spiritual
smorgasbord of differentreligious faiths and creeds and
cults. And we had, we had lookedinto so many of those and and
didn't think that there wereanswers to be found. It was a

(08:08):
big surprise to find out that,that Jesus is the Way, the Truth
and the Life.

So I'm betting that experientially, it was
pretty transformational rightoff the get go.

Well, we were radically saved. In other words,
we had already, we had given upon life. And had given up on the
privileges that we'd had, theeducation that we'd had. And so
when we came to the Lord, wetold him we would do anything,

(08:44):
and go anywhere. And I think forthat reason, perhaps that reason
alone, God spoke to us veryclearly within the first six
months of our believing lives.
Yes. He told us three things. Hesaid, One, you're getting
married, two, you're going intoministry, and three, you're
going to Israel.

Okay. Wow.

I went on a long, fast in those days, and
that really kind of helped us tohear clearly from God.

Well, that's amazing. So in the first six
months, you heard that clearlyfrom God.

Yes. And I, you know, I tell younger folks
today, it was that abandonment,that was the good side of our
generation. We had many dark andbad sides to what self indulgent
sins that we were involved in,but the abandonment and this
seeking for truth, was reallysomething that many in our

(09:43):
generation had.

I want to ask you quickly as an insert to our
conversation here, your wife,was she from a Jewish believing
family, were they practicingJews?

Yes, she came from a Jewish family. In New
York, we had met and inuniversity and known each other
for several years before we cameto the Lord, her family were not
Ultra religious, but they werevery traditional. And they were

(10:20):
the kind of Jewish family thatlived in a Jewish community all
their lives, they, all of theirfriends were Jewish. And the
idea of their daughter believingin Jesus was anathema to them.
And then the idea of theirdaughter marrying someone like

(10:40):
me was also anathema. It was,you might say, two atomic bombs
in their lives.

A double anathema?

Yeah, it was, it was very difficult for them.

Well, I'd like to hear more of this. But let's
just keep moving forward interms of what happened next.

Well, you know, for me, it was kind of a
reconnecting to some of thethings I learned earlier, my
parents had been nominalEpiscopalians. And so I knew
something about the Bible. Iknew something about Jesus, and
it all of a sudden, came tolife. For my wife, it was

(11:25):
discovering the Jewishness ofher identity. She never felt
like she became a Christian inthat sense, but that she, as a
Jew had found her Messiah, herJewish Messiah, and the God of
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob hadbrought salvation into her life.

(11:48):
So we knew that something reallyremarkable had happened to us.
And that we had to learn a lotvery fast. I ended up going to a
Bible school, I hitchhiked toBible school in Dallas, Texas,
called Christ for the Nations.
And we were there for two years,which was a kind of spiritual

(12:11):
bootcamp that really got us, youknow, walking with the Lord,
understanding, what is theBible, how to read the Bible,
how to live a holy life to geton that path. Important, and
most importantly, how to pray.
Right. And after two years, wewere functioning in our in our

(12:36):
beliefs, but I still had manyintellectual questions. And so
we looked for a place where Icould get more training. And we
found a seminary attached to alarge charismatic church in
Southern California. Okay. Andso in 1976, we went out to

(12:57):
California, and we were there inCalifornia for about six years

What was the name of that? Was it a seminary?

Well, that church was called Melodyland
Christian Center. Oh, and maybethe first, you know, charismatic
mega church. Yes. In America, itwas 1000s of people were
attending. And the seminary wascalled Melodyland School of
Theology, and later changed toAmerican Christian Theological

(13:26):
School. Okay. It was, it wasremarkable. For those few years
we were there we were taught byreally excellent teachers, many
of whom, because of theCharismatic Renewal had been,
you might say, thrown out oftheir denominations. Back in the

(13:48):
1970s, this was the early 1970s,mid 1970s. It was the beginning
of the charismatic movement andthe renewal of the supernatural
and the spiritual gifts. And wejust kind of caught that wave,
but I did receive a really soundtheological foundation from

(14:14):
those excellent teachers.

You must have felt during those days, you were
daily eating bread from heaven.

Yes, I mean, it was, you know, some people whose
names are like legendary now,like Jack Hayford, and Oral
Roberts, and they came to thecenter there and taught us. And
we grew on that. And this wasbefore the many excesses of the

(14:41):
charismatic movement that camein later. What a privilege. We
were part of that excitement.
And you know, the whole idea ofworship music, Maranatha Music
and the early Keith Green,people like that who were
writing songs to the Lord andreally breaking the barriers in
music, the Vineyard movement,all of this was just taking off

(15:04):
in Southern California in thoseyears - incredible - and we were
exposed to all of it. And we'rejust really thankful for that
kind of exposure helped us grow,and helped us to focus on our
ministry calling and for me itwas I was realizing that I had a
teaching and pastoral calling.

(15:27):
And, and my wife's understandingof her identity as a Jewish
person who had found her JewishMessiah was reinforced because
we began to meet more and moreMessianic Jews. And we began to
see Messianic Jews who werebuilding congregations and

(15:48):
writing books. And so there wasa growing revelation that was
being restored to the church, weknew that back in the 1970s.

So you found yourself in this incredible time
in history in the church interms of what the Spirit of God
was doing. And in all of that,you were not only learning and
preparing, but you also came outwith a sense of calling. Can you
tell me a little bit more aboutyour sense of calling, how it
came, how it changed you and howyou entered into it?

Well, we learned early on that prayer was
really the key to walking withthe Lord. And I just I can, I'm
so thankful for the earlyteachers and the teachings we
received about prayer on nowthat's developed into a huge
prayer movement and 24/7 andhouses of prayer. But back then,

(16:41):
about the only book on onintercessory prayer was Norman
Grubb's book called Intercessor,about the life of Rees Howells.
Yes, the classics, you know, ofan earlier age, and E.M. Bounds,
and so many others. We read allof those books, and learned to

(17:05):
pray. And we were taught. And Ithink this was one of the
benefits of the charismaticmovement, we were taught to hear
and recognize the supernaturalvoice of the Lord, we were. And
that took years. And it reallytakes a lifetime to develop that
ability to hear accurately. Butwe were already started on that.

(17:29):
And so our calling just gotstronger and stronger and
clearer and clearer. So by thetime we finished up in
California, in the very early1980s, we'd been walking with
the Lord, almost 10 years, weknew that we would go to Japan,
and that we would from there goon to Israel, we didn't know

(17:51):
how, we didn't know when, but weknew clearly that that was God's
plan for us.

So you identified that you had a teaching gift and
a pastoral gift. So you werekind of working mentally with
this idea that you would be apastor in a church.

Yes, I mean, that was our paradigm. That's
changed somewhat, you know, overthe decades, all right, but that
that was the paradigm. And, youknow, perhaps later in the
broadcast, I'll talk about howwe, how I grew beyond that. But

(18:29):
what we saw was, was churchgrowth, and and we accepted that
as, as the way God was buildinghis kingdom. Okay, we were
exposed to the teaching of JohnWimber. And I volunteered to be
the driver of a Korean minister,who came for a conference and

(18:51):
got to know him. His name wasYonggi Cho.

Wait just a minute have I heard of him!

Well, then his church was only about 100,000
people. But he was already kindof being, you know, used as an
example of a successful pastorwho was extending the kingdom of
God through church growth. Andso we at that point, that was
the model that we, that Iaccepted. And so I saw myself as

(19:23):
a pastor teacher, and that Iwanted to build a congregation.

So you graduated from your final set of studies,
and even though you're obviouslya lifelong learner, graduated
from your final studies. Whatyear was that?

That was 1981.
So,

so in 1982, you got to Japan

that following year, we were in Japan.

When you went to Japan, did you go to an existing
congregation or did you go as achurch planter?

Okay, well, you know, we were completely out of
the mold. We hadn't grown up inbelieving families, we didn't
have any kind of support system.
We didn't have any churches thatwere supporting us. So while I
was in seminary, I ran out ofmoney, and I begged the Lord for
a job. And I got a job in themid 1970s, in California

(20:18):
programming computers, through aclassmate in one of my
counseling classes.

Did you have any previous experience?

None.
Absolutely not.

So that's why my computer doesn't work!

so, you know, I was working as a bank teller,
and I wasn't making, I couldn'tpay my tuition and pay our bills
and fix our car. So my friendssaid, well, maybe I can hire
you, but you have to prove thatyou belong. So I learned how to
program computers, okay. And,but by the time I finished, I

(20:57):
got my, my degree in theology, Iwas ordained, and they were
ready to send me out, I had thisability to, I could get a job.
And back in the 70s, you know,there wasn't, you couldn't go to
a university and get a computerscience course. We were reading

(21:17):
in magazines about these youngguys, who, in the Bay Area had
some dream that they would put acomputer in every home. And I
remember thinking, what wouldyou do with one of these
machines? And the guy who waswriting that article was named
Steven Jobs. No kidding. I mean,it was so new. And, but by 1981

(21:40):
1982, I realized I had, that wasmy only way to get to Japan. No
one was going to send us, nochurch was backing us. So I
wrote letters, and I got hiredby a Japanese company called
NEC.

Oh, amazing.

And I knew enough Japanese from my teenage
years, so I could basicallyfunction in an office setting.
And so they moved us to Tokyo.
And I worked in the Japanese, Ibecame a salaryman, you know
what that means? dark suit andtie and the whole bit. And we
met an experienced missionary, aman named Bob Hoolahan, who had

(22:21):
been there for years and years.
And he saw in me, he said, "Wow,you grew up here. You're born
again, you've got Bibletraining. You're just what I'm
looking for." He wanted to startor he was just, maybe he had
already started one or twomeetings. He wanted to start an

(22:44):
international congregation indowntown Tokyo. And he said,
"Let's do it together." So Ibecame his associate. It was my
first real pastoral experience.
And we built this littlecongregation from about 25
people to over 300 over the nextfive years.

Now, that's an incredible story.

And I, for me, it was it was God's gift of
experience. Certainly, you know,so I didn't have total
responsibility. But Bob would,he was in charge of all the
missionaries in his denominationin Asia. So he traveled a lot.
And then he went back to theUnited States on furlough for an

(23:29):
entire year, and I had to runthis church. So it was
tremendous. It was greatexperience, great experience.
And we grew a lot. After after Ileft, they did relocate, and
they went through a lot ofchanges. But we had the joy of
the thrill of that, those firstthose early years of tremendous

(23:51):
growth.

One of the things we talk about in Kingdom Talk,
in this podcast, is churchplanting as an expression of the
kingdom, but also pioneering.
There are some people inministry who haven't actually
planted a church, but theycertainly have pioneered
ministry. Loren Cunningham, forexample, who pioneered YWAM. All
said, there's something aboutthe apostolic and how it's

(24:19):
expressed through these things.

Well, you learn. I think if you accept the
call to go places and do newthings, you learn how things are
planted and grow. It's noteverybody's path. So many, many
people you'll be called intosomething existing and you'll be
called to extend it to grow, toserve to help to support.

(24:50):
There's all kinds of callings,as many callings as there are
believers

and all legitimate

And all legitimate if, if you're
obedient to it, and I think thatwas our, our save Saving Grace,
God kept us on track. Becauseeven at the height of it, we
knew we weren't going to stay inTokyo, that God had called us to
Israel. And this was at a time,Israel was less than 40 years

(25:22):
old as a modern nation at thetime, and not accepted in the
Christian world as it is today.
So 35 years ago, people when wesaid to people we were going to
Israel, they would go, "Why?
What are you going to do?" Theyjust really - and we couldn't

(25:45):
answer those questions otherthan to say, "Well, we believe
God has called us."

Okay, now, your wife Rita, was she co pastoring
with you? During your Japan timechurch planting in Tokyo time,
what was her role in all ofthat?

No, she she was not a co pastor. And she was,
she taught in a localuniversity. She had a teaching
position at ICU in Mitaka. Andwe, we had a wonderful outreach
to students from theuniversities. And at all this

(26:27):
same time, I was also working inthe computer and
telecommunications industry inJapan. And we found, we found
out that NEC in those years wasthe number one company that
graduating Japanese collegeseniors wanted to work for. So

(26:48):
when if she told her children orher students, why don't you come
to our home? And my husband, whois a manager at NEC would like
to, we'd like to talk to youabout our lives. I mean, they
jammed the place. So we had justa wonderful time, we made
incredible friends, we saw youngJapanese people come to the

(27:11):
Lord, who are our friends tothis day,

it was a God set up. It was it was a God-ambush,
and they didn't know it.

And this was before, we didn't, no one had
taught us about tent making. Theonly reason I was working in
industry was because no one elsewould send me. No one was going
to support us. Nobody knew us,we had done nothing in ministry.
And so it was just the only way,the only thing we knew is that

(27:40):
God wanted us to go to Japan.
And so I just had to solve theproblem. And it ended up being
through industry.

And ultimately, the person who sent you was God.

I looking back I think we we can say yes, it
really was.

I think there's an important point here for those
who are listening, who might bepraying and seeking a word of
direction from the Lord. Becausethey feel they're supposed to be
doing something or to besomewhere. There's a kind of
partnership we have with God,which when to agree to that as a
step, we step out in obedienceand faith. It's not always a red

(28:19):
carpet that's rolled out infront of us. Sometimes you have
to roll up your sleeves and dothe human stuff, trusting that
God is going to do the biggerstuff as you do your work in

Absolutely, Mark. It's God's wisdom, to not
faith.
to show us the whole plan. Andthat's the function of faith is
when you don't really know forsure, that's when you need
faith, and hope and love, youhave to step out trusting that
God will fill in the missingblanks. And there were there

(28:53):
were times looking back, youknow, I really struggled with my
calling. I wanted to be only inministry or only in the
marketplace. And for years,particularly in those years in
Japan, I had to do both. I seethe wisdom now. I couldn't do

Speaker 2 (29:09):
I understand that now because I just don't
have the energy.

Then it was a matter of time management. You
know, we'd have pastors meetingsin a coffee house near my
office. I met people constantlyat lunch hour, I would teach
Bible studies and after hours,but then when you're in your
your 30s you have boundlessenergy.

True. I know we discussed earlier before the
show about your involvement inmarketplace ministry. But what
I'm hearing in your story is youwere looking for a way to get
yourself to Japan, as well ashaving money to live on as well.

(30:03):
You were being launched intomarketplace ministry, you were
coming into a kingdomunderstanding there was a
paradigm shift for you. Itwasn't just making money when
nobody else would give it toyou. Again, I've just heard so
many people say, "One day, Iwant to be in full time
ministry. I don't want to dothis anymore." And they don't
actually see that the place, theprofession, the vocation, the

(30:24):
trade, whatever it is that Godhas given them is actually the
place they're supposed to be tobring the gospel and advance the
Kingdom of God.

Absolutely, we're the ones who put an
artificial barrier betweenministry and the marketplace.
Certainly, the apostle Pauldidn't, didn't do that. No, and,
and God looks at a whole life.
And we have to OBEY HIM with allof our strength, all of our
soul, everything that is withinus. So you know, if he tells you

(30:58):
to do this, that and the other,you have to, you have to find a
way to make it work, you know,whatever, whatever it takes from
out of your life. And that's,that's what I learned in those
years.

And that's excellent insight, learned the
hard way. That's my experience.
Over the years when I'm lookingto God for some direction in my
life. I've had a sorting grid Iused to, or I used to have a
sorting grid, it was either thisor that. But over time, I found
that most of the time Goddoesn't think that way. He

(31:36):
doesn't think either/or, hetends to think more both/and. I
don't know about you, Peter, butit took me a long time to figure
that out. Because when I forcedeverything into the either/or
grid, I actually wasn't gettingthe bigger, bigger picture that
God was releasing to me

This uncomfortable, those
uncomfortable years of beingstretched between what seemed
like two sometimes opposingvocations really planted the
seeds in me for an understandingof God's kingdom that took me
beyond the church growth model.
I began to realize in the yearslater, that God's objective for

(32:19):
His kingdom is he intends torule society, not just the
church, the church is hisinstrument, so that he will rule
society. And I realized why Itook and it took me years
because I had to unlearn many ofthe things that I had,

(32:42):
consciously and unconsciouslyaccepted about church growth
being God's goal. I had to learnthat most of the people that I
will, will reach out to that Iwill teach and serve as a pastor
and teacher will never be calledto the professional ministry.

Right? The vast majority, and that's a huge
paradigm shift

Exactly. The vast majority of people that we
serve, their vocations areelsewhere. They're doctors,
they're lawyers, they'rebusinessmen, they're homemakers,
they're educators, they'rescientists, they're
entertainers. God sends them allto us. And for many years, I
tried to make them all intoministers. And every year I

(33:30):
failed, and every year, I wassure that I was doing something
wrong. And finally, I realized,wait a minute, that's not what
the kingdom is, the kingdom isconsists of all kinds of people,
because God intends to rule thewhole society.

So when there's that paradigm shift, when you
flip flop that when you turn itaround, and let's say I don't
know, rough figures, 90% of allthe church, people who identify
as believers are meant to be inthe world and not of the world,
advancing the kingdom of God.
That not only that changes howyou think, but how you disciple?

Absolutely. For me, that paradigm shift was
theological. Okay, after wemoved to Israel, and we moved to
Israel directly from Japan. Andwe've been there ever since. So
we went to Israel in 1987. FromTokyo. And we've been here in
Israel for 35 years. So almosthalf of my life. It's really

(34:39):
because of Rita's Jewishidentity. We became citizens.
And we co founded a congregationon Mount Carmel. But it was what
we learned from the Bible, whatI learned from the Bible after
coming to Israel that changed myparadigm of the kingdom. I

(34:59):
realized what the Bible teachesis that Israel is chosen by God
for one great purpose. And thatis to be his example of the
kingdom. They're not, the peopleof Israel were not chosen
because they were superior inany way. God just created them
as his example for every people.
So he had, he would have peopleon earth. And the their example

(35:23):
is to be the kingdom of God. Andthat's when I saw that in in the
scriptures, I realized that it'sit's very plain. And a lot of
things really began to unravel,I realized we're in a big
restoration, a return to somefundamental biblical truths,

(35:46):
about God's intentions for theworld. I and it, you know, I
have the scriptural basis, I'vewritten books about this, and
taught extensively about Israelas God's paradigm of his kingdom
and the implications that hasfor the mission of the church.

There's so many things here that just in the
last few minutes, particularly,you've talked about. I really
want to go a whole lot deeper.
But before we do that, can youconnect the dots for us on your
jump from Japan to Israel,leading up to the jump? And
would you fill out that littletime period for us, please?

Okay. After we'd been in Japan, for a little
bit more than five years, youknow, it became clear to me that
either we would stay in Japan,and continuing to do what we
what we were doing in ministrythere, or we would go on with
what we knew was God's plan.
And, and so knowing that ourhearts were to complete God's

(37:02):
will, we started meeting as manyJewish people and as many
Israelis as we possibly could,we became friends with the local
rabbi in Tokyo. We learned moreabout Messianic Jews, we began
to take steps. Since I had bynow a reasonable amount of

(37:27):
experience in the computerindustry, I realized that this
again, could be a vehicle thatwould take us to Israel. One of
the things I did was I went tothe Israeli embassy, and I asked
for a list of high techcompanies that might be doing
business internationally. And Ibegan to write them letters. I

(37:49):
got a lot of rejections. But onecompany in the city of Haifa,
which was the city that we kindof felt would be our target,
where we should land, wrote backand said they were interested in
meeting me. So I worked out away to stop in Israel. This was
our first visit ever to Israel.

(38:11):
And they interviewed me andright away offered a job. Now we
had to wait to actually get fromJapan to into Israel. And again,
industry provided a way for usto arrive as immigrants in
Israel, and it was really,really much needed. Because our

(38:32):
ignorance was great. I had noidea what Israeli culture was
like, we had no idea of whatkind of challenges we'd face. We
just knew that this was part ofthe call. It turned out to be
much more difficult than wethought it would be when you're
an immigrant. It's not likebeing a missionary, or a visitor

(38:55):
or a tourist. Those kinds ofpeople have homes somewhere
else. But an immigrant is like arefugee in a way, you don't have
a home, you're not going back.
And you're, it's the big resetbutton. You're starting your
life all over again. And that'swhat happened to us in 1987. We
struggled for a number of years.

(39:18):
And then the Gulf War came, oh1991. And there was a dictator
in Iraq who was threatening toburn half of Israel with weapons
of mass destruction. And theIsraeli government was giving us
all citizens instructions aboutpreparing for possible nerve gas
attack from missiles that wouldbe landing in our cities from

(39:42):
Iraq. It was a very dislocatingtitle. And we were really tested
like we'd been in the countrymore than two years by that time
and it's hard to describe howdifferent Israel was 35 years

(40:04):
ago. I'm sure there were hardlyany believers in our city. There
were less than 200 believers inthe entire metropolitan area of
Haifa. Yes, and all of two smallfellowships. Most of the
believers really weren't a partof any fellowship. And we, we

(40:28):
were trying struggling with theculture, with the language. We
had two small children at thetime. And we really had to ask
the Lord, is this what youcalled us to? And we didn't get
instructions from the Lord toleave. There were opportunities
where there were noinstructions. And so we stayed,

(40:51):
and the missiles fell, and welearned to seal our room and
protect our children. And well,but after that war, somehow, we
felt like we turned a corner. Itwas a funny thing. It was just a
feeling, a deep inner feeling,that somehow our roots were now
beginning to go down into therocky soil of Israel, and that

(41:14):
the decision that we'd made tobecome citizens of the nation
was actually taking place. Andthat we were, we were beginning
to feel like we belonged here.
And, miraculously, right afterthat war, God put us together
with another of coupleimmigrants like us, Americans,

(41:36):
immigrants like us, and like us,a Jew and Gentile married
together. They were pioneeringIsrael's first Bible based
rehabilitation center for men,reaching out to both Jews and
Arabs. We began praying withthem. And in the spring of 1991,
God spoke to us to start a newmessianic congregation on Mount

(41:57):
Carmel, the Carmel congregationthat's been growing now for more
than 30 years.

So the two couples, the four of you came
together. A Bible based rehabwas being established. But at
that time, you sensed that therewas also a congregation that you
were you were going toestablish?

That was our dream. And but by then, we knew
we weren't, we couldn't, weweren't doing it alone. And God
put us together with David andKaren Davis. And it, the rest is
history. We, we've workedtogether for 25 years, David,

(42:40):
sadly passed away five yearsago. We're still working
together with Karen and anothergeneration of young leaders that
we've discipled and raised upare now stepping in the
ministry, which was maybe 25People 20 People, when we began
is now a network of ministries.
And we've seen actually a smallexplosion of growth in Messianic

(43:03):
congregations all over the landwonderful, in the last 30-35
years.

What a history, what an experience and a
testimony of what the Lord'sdoing. In Israel and through
Israel.

It's been, it's been really a privilege, I we
somehow, by the grace of God, wecaught a wave of his purposes.
And because of that, we wereallowed to be in this generation
really just see the firstvisible, Israeli Messianic

(43:41):
congregations where, whereYeshua, Jesus is being
worshipped in his own land, byhis own people, in his own
language of Hebrew, for thefirst time in 2000 years.
Incredible. We we are part ofthose who are called to to build
that now visible expression. Soit's it has been a an incredible

(44:05):
adventure, a pioneering call.
And now we realized what God wasup to, all those years earlier,
when he spoke to us so clearlysaid, you're going to Israel.
That's my intention for you.

Again, so many things I want to pick up on and
ask you, which I probably don'thave time to do today. So you'll
just have to come back on theshow another time.

Sure, any time you say.

We'll do part two.
But let me ask you again aboutthe kingdom because so many
people ask us about the kingdom.
I'm sure it's easy for you as itis for me to think that just
everybody's got the revelationor they they think in a kingdom
kind of way. I'm talking aboutChristians in the church, but

(44:54):
the reality is, there's not alot of people who they may have
some understanding to it. But,but knowledge is not revelation.
And transformation only reallycomes from revelation. It
doesn't come from information.
And so when you talk about thechurch, how do you understand
that with regard to the kingdom?

I see the church as an organization, the
organization of believersworking together. That church,
of course, the word church isecclesia, which means the people
who are called out by God, whenwe're called out, we organize,
we come together, thosecommunities that have called

(45:41):
people that we, that we know as,as the church are God's
instrument, to bring his kingdomto Earth. So his purpose is not
the church. But the church isthe instrument that God uses to
bring about his purpose, whichis to rule the world. And the

(46:02):
world is society. It's everyperson, it's every family, it's
every tribe, it's every nation.
And, and we will not, and we donot expect to accomplish this by
getting everybody from societyinto the organization. You know,
I think that the whole idea wasmore chairs on the Sabbath. You

(46:26):
know, you every week, you putout more chairs, and you filled
those chairs. And when you ifyou kept doing that, ultimately,
you'd win everybody. But youknow, if you think about it,
that's totally unrealistic, itwill never happen. But instead,
what God sends is people to fillthose chairs, who then go out

(46:48):
into society. And our job asapostles, prophets, pastors,
teachers, and evangelists,according to Ephesians, chapter
four, is to equip them for theirwork of service, they bring the
kingdom, to their offices, totheir families, through their
vocations through their sphereof influence. And our job is to

(47:11):
equip them and enable them to dothat.

So the kingdom wasn't created for the church,
but rather the church, in asense was created for for the
Kingdom.

Exactly.

Well, let's talk about equipping because you've
written several books. In fact,your recent book, your most
recent book is called Equip. Andthat's what we're talking about
right now. So let me ask you,how do you equip people not to
be faithful sitters on chairs inthe Sunday morning service for
the rest of their lives, becausethey believe that that is the

(47:48):
best way to outwork theirChristian calling, but to be
Kingdom minded people whounderstand that they're called
to advance the kingdom in theworld. How do you do that? Where
do you begin?

The paradigm that I went through and you
might think, boy Peter, it tookyou a long time to realize what
is so clear, but, if I have achance, I can explain, but the
the paradigm, the truth that hasbeen restored to me personally,

(48:22):
is that we equip throughdiscipleship. And, and
discipleship is more than justlearning who is God? What is the
Bible, how to pray, how to beginliving a holy life. That's the
basics. I like to describediscipleship as two different

(48:46):
things. There's socks and shoes.
We need socks, and basically,one size fits all. So everybody
that becomes a believer andneeds the socks kinds of
discipleship, which is thebasics. Who is God? What are the
scriptures, how to pray, how tolive a holy life? Okay, many
churches, most churches do areasonable job of this. But you

(49:06):
don't even send your children toschool wearing just socks. You
gotta give them shoes, and youwear different shoes, depending
on the different kind of workyou're going to do. You don't
give the same shoes just tosomeone who's studying modern
dance to someone who's going towork on a construction site.

(49:26):
Okay, so we after we giveeverybody socks, we need to
start giving them shoes. And weneed to say okay, look, you're a
scientist, you work in alaboratory. Here's what you've
got to here's how you act as adisciple of Jesus, the King of
Kings as a scientist. Okay,you're going to teach a second

(49:48):
grade class Okay, here's howyou're going to do that as a
disciple. Your your call, you'rean entertainer. How do you
portray Jesus through yourthrough your craft through your
calling you that's a challenge.
Today's entertainment

Well, good question.

Think about this, Hey, God, God may send you
a politician, someone who'sgifted someone who is called by
God to work in a vocation likethat. How do you how do you
disciple a person like that? Ora lawyer or a judge? How do you
disciple people like that? Tomake the decisions a doctor,

(50:27):
doctors come to me and they say,we make life and death decisions
for our patients every day.
Where is the pastor who'shelping me make those decisions?
They've actually challenged mesay, how do you as a pastor,
help me make make the decisionsI have to make as a disciple?
And I think that is thechallenge for the church. It's

(50:49):
not about filling chairs. It'sabout the quality of the people
that we produce. And I thinkthat, in many ways the church
growth paradigm is that wegather lots of people, but we
don't produce a high enoughquality output to actually

(51:10):
change society. So I think thisis a challenge and a call to the
modern day church.

Yep, absolutely. I totally agree. There's some very
practical thoughts I'm havingright now, again, thinking about
some of the people that I've,I've talked to have asked me
questions about this wholething. And you know, it gets for
them, it gets right down to whatdo I say to my co workers at the

Right, exactly.
watercooler?

Yeah, you can be there and you can have a teacher
like you, let's say, and tellthem that they're going to
advance the kingdom in themarketplace, and they're
carrying the Spirit of God intothe workplace. But for some
people, it gets right down towhen the boss is chewing them
out, and other challenges likethis.

Or, or, or when management wants you to do
something that's unjust, orillegal, or immoral. Or when
your client offers you a bribe,very challenging. I mean, this
is the issues and you know,people in the marketplace, I
learned, you know, in my yearsin the marketplace, that happens

(52:23):
every day, really. And doctorstell me, okay, they have to
decide what type of medicationthey're going to prescribe. If
they prescribe this, there theyare, they may make a lot more
money, but it may not be thebest for their patient, they
have these there's a they haveto deal with fine lines that
have to do with the quality ofthe person, that the integrity,

(52:46):
the character of the personmaking those decisions. That's
the most important thing thatdisciples can display. As we go
out, because that's whatinfluences others. People watch,
people know. And that's whatproduces leaders in any, in any
area of society. And the church,as we produce higher quality

(53:13):
disciples, our influence growsand grows and multiplies. And
over time, it's exponential.

I think those practical how-to questions will
always be asked, but the biggerchallenge will be the whole
issues, the whole issue ofcharacter, and integrity, and
maturity, so that you don'tnecessarily gain those things
quickly. There are somesupernatural moments where God

(53:41):
seems to give us wisdom beyondour years, right? But clearly,
from a teacher, pastor point ofview, and I am thinking about
those people who are listeningto our broadcast today it's just
simply, you've got to becommitted to the long run in
this you can't. It's just not atoolkit of how tos. It's to

(54:04):
really disciple people lifelong,isn't it?

Yes, it takes it takes time. And it almost
never happens in a crowd. It'salways going to happen with
people that know you and that,you know, in fact, my
discipleship was mostly becauseof my friends, it was the the

(54:28):
few people who I became friendlywith that really got to know me
that I really got to know that Iwanted to know who really wanted
to know me. We helped eachother. develop over time. Small
groups, small, the successfulchurches. It's small groups of
leaders who become friends whotrust one another, who work

(54:51):
together, who have each other'sback. Then you create something
together. Oh, I've seen thishappen in business. And that's
how disciples are made. And sothat's why it changes our
paradigm. We're very focused onproducing crowds. true, very
true. We almost rate our successbased on the size of the crowd.

(55:17):
But, but disciples aren't madein crowds. And, and, and
successful people. Andsuccessful people aren't
developed in crowds. If you wantto be successful, you've got to
have a few people that you'reclose with that, that you're
working together, and you'rehelping each other and you're

(55:38):
growing together. That's, andyou know what, that's just
that's called discipleship.

So disciples are not made in crowds.

Absolutely. The small small groups, small teams,
committed dedicated people, youknow, you see it everywhere in
sports, right? Now, you look atthe, the, you know, the Chicago
Bulls in their day, you know,they, every one of them, they
contributed that, and they, theBeatles, and music, you know,

(56:12):
the entrepreneurs who, withintheir management teams, it's
always some small group ofhighly motivated, well developed
people who most of the time arefriends.

And that highlights fairly, very clearly
the importance of relationshipin all of this.

And so then you look, then you look at Jesus and
his disciples, and you see thesame thing.

Well, we don't have a lot of time left. And
this is not fair to you, so I'mgoing to apologize up front. But
I want to end with what I thinkis possibly a big question. And
so it's unfair to you becauseyou probably won't get a chance
to answer all of it. But howdoes the effectiveness of
discipleship, Kingdomdiscipleship, how does that

(56:57):
relate to the restoration of thekingdom?

Well, you know, I think, if we recalibrate the
church, so that the church as anorganization, so that we re
envision the church as like afactory that produces high
quality lives. So you go to thatorganization, if you want your

(57:25):
life to improve, if you want tobecome a better person, and you
want to be among people who arestriving together to become
better people together, then wecreate a paradigm that will be
so attractive to the world. Youknow, I think the next the young

(57:47):
generation, they don't want tosit in crowds, you know, I mean,
that has its place, you go to abig concert, or you go to a
sporting event, or you go to abig rally and hear an exciting
speaker, okay, there's nothingwrong with that. But it's just
that on a, on a regular basis,if you if you want to grow, you
know, it's not going to happenthere. It's, it's more for

(58:10):
entertainment, for relaxation,for a vision, okay. But but for,
for actual growth andeffectiveness. And so when that
when the church can be likethat, it will, it will draw in
people of all kinds. And onceyou start producing high quality
people, it's it's like, I don'tthink I don't think you can

(58:35):
quantify the results of that.
But if we still keep focusing oncrowds, in a way it's, that's,
that's a model that's guaranteedto produce a large quantity of
low quality disciples, We thenleave the crowd and can't really
can't Don't exemplify the lifeof Jesus in the rest of their

(58:56):
lives. And that just produces akind of, you know, among
unbelievers, it produces a kindof a cynicism.

And unfortunately, individuals who are a product of
that kind of institutionaldiscipleship, they actually
think that they're scoring high,that that's a high level, that's
the high bar that they've justjumped over when in fact,
ranked, it is pretty low and forthe rest of their lives thinking
that it's actually it wasactually pretty good.

Yes. And, you know, this truth is, is already
there. If you look at reallysuccessful groups, and if you
look at them closely, you'llfind a small number of people
who are working at the heart ofit, who are producing that
success. And if we can now lookat those small groups of people

(59:55):
and kind of replicate that I andreally try to produce more of
that kind of person. And thatthose kinds of groups, I think
the future is ours.

Mark Banyard (01:00:10):
So let's say that you have been, you've been
effective as a pastor teacher toproduce good fruit. So you've
got these bunch of disciplesthat are ready to go out into
the world, vocations,professions, trades, whatever.
And let's say, the church is nowrunning on all cylinders. You're

(01:00:32):
in Israel, you have a sense ofGod's people in the land and the
destiny on them. But now we'retalking about the church, all
around the world. So what do youthink is going to happen next,
Peter?

Peter Tsukahira (01:00:47):
Well, you know, Jesus describes it, I think very
clearly in Matthew chapter 24.
And the world, without him,without his rulership, it gets
worse. And, and the people ofGod become more bride like, and
more like a kingdom. Because nomatter what your eschatology, I

(01:01:08):
think most, most Christians whoare or Bible based, will agree
that he's returning as abridegroom, to to be joined with
his bride, which is the body ofall believers, without spot or
blemish. So he's returning for abride-like church, and he's
returning as a king to rule hiskingdom, which ultimately will

(01:01:30):
be every nation, every tribe andevery tongue. And so I think the
church is at this turning pointof restoration, to restore that
basic, biblical model, and thatthis is the last era of the
church. That's why I believewe're in the end times, and that
everything that the church does,from now on, needs to be focused

(01:01:54):
on producing that spotlessbride, and being the kingdom
that he will rule. And the bigprophetic sign for me that we've
entered this era, and we'refinishing the way God is
finishing his work on theplanet, is the fact that he's
brought the people of Israelback to the land that he

(01:02:16):
promised them, after 2000 yearsof wandering, and that he's
restored the gospel now to thepeople who brought it to the
world 2000 years ago, we're thegeneration, we're seeing this
with our eyes, it's like we'rethe first generation in 2000
years to see this andmiraculously participate in it.
It's and it's a huge End Timeprophetic sign for the church.

(01:02:40):
Now things change. We'reentering the last lap of the
great race. We finished the worknow from from now on, where we
need to be thinking aboutfinishing the bride and the
kingdom.

Ending Well,

exactly. But but but the big, not just our
lives, but the big. The bigpicture.

Peter, one of the things you've talked about, is
the church being attractive. AndI think that's part of finishing
well, the beauty of Christ, thepolished the fragrance, the
perfection of Christ and Hisbody, as opposed to just being
deliverers of the message untilJesus comes back.

Mark, I think in these end times, there will
be large churches that areremarkable in their kingdom like
qualities, but there will bemany, many small churches that
are incredibly effective in andincredibly influential, because

(01:03:45):
of the people that are that arethat they are producing in the
midst of their fellowship.

Amen. I couldn't agree more. Now, we've run out
of time today. Thank you somuch, Peter, it's been a delight
to talk to you. And I have somany more questions. So perhaps
you will consider my invitationto come back. And we can discuss
that later. But there are peoplewho have been listening today or

(01:04:12):
listening to the podcast when itcomes out. And there's been
something that you said in thelast hour, perhaps your personal
testimony, perhaps being in themarketplace, getting yourself to
Japan, which which was God butbut you know, being willing to
work and taking a job and beingbi-vocational for a while until

(01:04:32):
God shifted you your paradigm.
And but they're listening andthere's some part of your
message today that they're justsaying, I'm not sure what the
next step is.

Well, Mark, that's for that very reason.
That's why I wrote my mostrecent book, Equip. It's, it's
basically a training course, fordiscipleship to bring this to a
fruit bearing place where notonly can we be disciples, but we
can begin to contribute tomaking disciples, which is the

(01:05:12):
kind of fruit that God wants tosee in all of us, not just in
church, not just in churchleaders. So this book is Equip.
It's 52, short chapters, you canread the chapter in about 15
minutes, but it's meant to belike a weekly study for a year.
And this book now is availableon Amazon, and I've sent you

(01:05:32):
copies, but it's probably stillin the mail on its way to
Canada.

I'm looking forward to reading it. And by
the way, we will put in the shownotes today, your contact
information, website andinformation about all your other
books as well. And so Peter,would you close our show today
in prayer, praying for thosepeople, in anything else, of
course, that God would put onyour heart to pray about.

I'll be glad I began to pray. Because without
God's anointing and the power ofthe Holy Spirit, of course, none
of our efforts are going toamount to much. So Lord, I just
thank you, for Mark and for thispodcast. I pray, Lord, that you
will use these words and thespirit of them to touch hearts

(01:06:20):
and minds. You will establishyour purposes in each one of us
that there will be an alignmentwith God's endtime purposes in
our lives. I pray, Father, thatsomething that was said will be
as a seed of life, a seed oftruth that we planted in good
soil, in our hearts, throughthis broadcast, and that a seed

(01:06:45):
of truth that if nurtured, overtime, will put down roots, grow
and bear fruit in each of ourlives. I pray this blessing. I
pray for fruitfulness. I prayfor Your guidance and protection
in the days ahead. In the nameof Jesus. Amen.

Amen. Amen. Well, thank you again, Peter. This has
been wonderful. I'm lookingforward to reading your book
when it gets here. Andhopefully, we'll get a chance in
the near future to have you backon the show and and to continue
our conversation.

Unknown (01:07:21):
Great, Mark, as I said, anytime, just let me know.

Well, thank you, Peter. That's very gracious of
you. Well, we pray blessingsover you, your wife and family,
of course over Israel, and thepeace of Jerusalem. We look
forward to seeing and hearingthe testimony of God as he
continues to reveal Himselfthrough your life.

Thank you.
Thank you and Shalom.

And that's our show for today. Thanks for
listening. We hope you enjoyedthis episode of Kingdom talk.
You can find all the notes andlinks for today's show at our
website,www.kingdomadvanceministries.com/podcast.
And once again, if you enjoyedour show, be sure to subscribe

(01:08:15):
so that you won't miss any ofour upcoming episodes. Bye for
now, and may God bless

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