Kids, Tech & the Good Enough Digital Parent // with Katie Davis

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Welcome to know them. (00:02):
undefined
Be them, raise them a show thathelps moms be and raise strong
women, Through regular audio dosesof information and inspiration.
I'm Carmelita to mom of two tween, soonto be teen girls, spouse, co-parent,
life coach, working mom and your host.
So today's topic, kids andtechnology use, is one that is so

(00:25):
pervasive that it's almost cliche.
We've all asked ourselves howmuch screen time should kids have?
Am I giving my kids too much?
Am I a bad parent for lettingmy kids spend an entire rainy
afternoon playing Roblox?
When should they get cell phones?
The list goes on and on.
That's why I leapt at theopportunity to chat with Dr.
Katie Davis associate professor atthe university of Washington (UW) and

(00:50):
director of the UW digital youth lab.
Dr.
Davis holds two master'sdegrees and a doctorate in
human development and education.
From Harvard graduate school of education.
For nearly 20 years, Dr.
Davis has been researching the impact ofdigital technologies on young people's
learning development and wellbeing.
She has published more than 70 academicpublications and is the author of

(01:15):
three books exploring technology'srole in young people's lives.
The app generation with HowardGardner, Writers in the secret garden.
Fanfiction youth and new forms ofmentoring with Cecilia Aragon, and
most recently technology's child.
Digital media's role in the agesand stages of growing up, which

(01:36):
was released in March of 2023.
In each of these booksand in our interview,
Dr.
Davis draws on her expertisein developmental science
and technology design.
As well as her experiences as a parentto help us make sense of the often
confusing landscape of research andmedia messages about kids and technology.

(01:57):
Here's our conversation.
Hello, Katie.
It's so great to meetyou and talk with you.
I'm just really excited tohear your thoughts on this
important issue and your book.

Katie Davis (02:11):
Thank you so much for having me, Cat.
I'm delighted to be here.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host (02:14):
I'd love to start by hearing you share with
the listeners a little bit about whatbrought you to the work that you do
and the books that you've written.

Yeah, so I've been researching kids and technology
for almost 20 years now.
It's hard to believe.
But before that, my professionalhat that I wore was as an
elementary school teacher.
And so this was back in theearly to mid two thousands.
And, you know, I, loved teaching.
I always wanted to be a teacher.
I wanted to be a teacher and a writer.

(02:46):
and I feel like I still am, I'm awriter for sure, and I get to teach
still, but older kids, and adults.
But, I was always interested inhow children come to learn about.
Themselves and their role in society.
And as I was experiencing life as ateacher in the classroom and sometimes

(03:07):
outside the classroom, for instance,talking with parents or doing lunch duty,
it became clear to me that technologywas increasingly becoming central to how
that happened and how young people learn,how they develop, how they make sense.
Of the world.
And so I went to graduate school toreally understand a little bit more how

(03:30):
were these new technologies transformingthe process of learning and development.
. So I went to grad school in 2005.
And if you think about what was going onthat time, MySpace was still very big.
Facebook had just launched and itwas only available for, college
students and only in a limited way.

(03:51):
YouTube was new, very new and we were juston the cusp of so many interesting and
transformative technologies, , and so.
Being able to be a researcher startingback then, all throughout this time
and watching the changes and the newplatforms that have come online, and

(04:12):
I've now written three books aboutsome aspect of kids and technology
and it's just been, so interestingto watch the changes over the years.

Hmm Hmm.
Well, speaking of your latest book,technology's Child, digital Media's role
in the ages and stages of growing up?
I love how it's structured becauseas a busy parent and, not having
toddlers anymore, I sort of.
Skimmed over the, the sections,the chronology of, you know, early
stage development, et cetera.

(04:43):
so it, it just feels verypractical and approachable.
you clearly pack a ton of informationinto this, but again, it feels very
accessible because of the way it's set up.
And, the language that you writein felt very straightforward.

Yeah, it was actually by design.
I did that because, you know, I, as aresearcher, I've been very comfortable
with the complexity of this area.
It's, it's very complicated.
Whenever people ask me, what'sthe impact of technology on kids?
Is it good or is it bad?
I have invariably answered,well, it's complicated.
Sometimes it can be good,sometimes it can be bad.

(05:18):
But then when I became a parent myself,I realized that that doesn't really give
you concrete strategies for parenting.

Hmm.

And so I was really motivated to write technology's child
in an attempt to bring my researcherhat and my parent hat together and,
and try and give my parent selfsome concrete, actionable advice.
That I could actually use day to day.
And so that's what I was reallytrying to do for myself and
for parents and teachers.

(05:46):
I addressed, learning as well.
And so, yeah.
I'm really glad to hear that,you found the same thing.

definitely.
Well, and, and right off the bat, Ithink it's part of the introduction, but
you made a statement about how askingwhether screens and screen time are
good or bad are not the right questions.
It's just technology has becometoo central to our lives.
And I have to admit, when I read that Ihad this weight lifted off my shoulders
because I think part of me is stillstuck in that like, screen time is bad

(06:15):
I need to manage, I need to.
Put like hard boundaries on thesethings and it really, I don't know if
normalized or just sort of, validatedthe complexity of the issue and it made
me think, okay, there's a differentway and it doesn't have to mean black
and white, like draconian measures thatto date have not felt very successful

(06:37):
when I've been trying to implementanything of the sort with my daughters.

That's right.
It's really, you know, to askis it, is it good or is it bad?
You know, we're, we've left that question.
Far behind, especially since thepandemic technology is just so
firmly entrenched in our lives.
It's really hard to escape.
And so the question I'm asking in thisbook is, when is technology good and

(07:03):
when is it bad for children's developmentat different stages of development?
And so I look at different stages startingfrom toddlers, going all the way up
to 20 something in emerging adulthood.
And I look at.
When can technology supporthealthy development?
And what are the signs importantly,and when might it undermine or get

(07:24):
in the way of healthy development?
And I really boiled downthe research into two steps.
So I call it the two step decision toolto evaluate is this experience that
my child is having, is this good forthem or is it not so good for them?
And so the first step, andI use this every day in my

(07:45):
parenting of my son Oliver.
I ask, is this experience self-directed?
And by self-directed, I mean, is this.
An experience where my son is inthe driver's seat of his technology
experience and typically the kindsof technology experience that place
a child in the driver's seat and givethem agency tend to be open-ended.

(08:07):
They tend to be self-paced.
Things that.
Really allow for a lot of choice, thataren't designed to co-opt attention.
So if you think about socialmedia, it's kind of the
ultimate co-op of our attention.
it doesn't have to be that way though.
So I talk a lot in the book about howthe design of certain technologies

(08:29):
makes it more or less self-directed.

Ah, can you shed a little more light on maybe examples
of instances where you felt like it wasa successful self-directed technology
relationship versus say social media.

Right.
Absolutely.
So one example that I give is, and thisis for younger kids, but my son Oliver,
loves this app called Peppa's Paint Box.
It's from Peppa Pig

Hmm.

it's a drawing app.
And when he opens it, he's taken toa blank canvas automatically and he
really is in the driver's seat there.
He can decide what color he wants tochoose, what implement he wants to
use, whether it's a paintbrush or apencil, and he can decide what he's
gonna draw and put on that blank canvas.
There's no music in the backgroundthat kind of emphasizes.

(09:23):
A forward motion as many apps have musicor they have timers that are counting down
and they really are dictating the pace.
With this app, it's very muchself-paced rather than system paced,
and there aren't any characters.
Sometimes in kids' games, there arecharacters who cry when you exit the game.

(09:44):
And that is sort of an, anincentive to keep the child on the
platform and keep them playing.
so that's an actually a great exampleof a, a dark pattern in design.
There are lots of these dark patternsthat designers will introduce deliberately
into the design of a technology,whether it's for children or adults.
And the specific purpose is to.

(10:06):
Keep us engaged, keep our holdour attention, and keep us on
the platform with social media.
Examples would be the infinite scroll.
There used to actually be an end to ourfeed, but there is no longer an end.
Our feeds also used to becurated chronologically.
Now they're curatedalgorithmically for the most part.

(10:27):
And again, they're curated based onwhat the algorithm knows will capture
our attention and hold our attention,not necessarily what is gonna support a
feeling of mastery and self-direction.
So yeah, so those are just some examplesof when design can be used to support
self-direction and when it can be used,not so much to support self-correction.

I think sometimes it can feel like a gray area
and knowing some of the, the signs orthings to look for is super helpful.

Absolutely.
Another thing that I look for and,it's based on research, that has been
done actually by some of my colleaguesat the University of Washington
is determining when your child isinteracting with the technology.
It could be their phone,it could be a video game.
Are they able to hold a conversationwith you or is their attention completely

(11:17):
absorbed in what they're doing now?
Some of that is fine.
You know, I let my son watch TV and whenhe is watching tv, nobody can talk to him.
but I try to limit that because that'smore of a passive experience and.
There's not a lot that he's really doing.
Sometimes we'll have interestingconversations about the show

(11:38):
afterwards, and I try to encouragethat because I can try to develop his
storytelling abilities and, tryingto understand what he, if anything
he might have learned from the show.
But, yeah, thinking about what can yourchild have a conversation with you,
is a really good indicator if they'restill in control of their attention.

Ah, A a As you say that I'm thinking
about all the times I've saidsomething and there's no response.
I'm like, hello?
Excuse me.

Yeah, absolutely.
And you know, we can turn thison ourselves as parents too.
Sometimes I notice that Oliver triesto make a bid for my attention, but I
am checking my phone or I'm checkingmy email and I realize, oh my goodness,
my attention is totally co-opted.
I am not in the driver'sseat right now of my.
Technology experience, so it reallycan go both ways and it's very

(12:30):
useful I think, because parentsare often struggling with the same
things that their kids are strugglingwith when it comes to technology.

I'm so glad you mentioned that, cuz
it is one of the themes that I.
I think I tend to hit on in, my podcast isbasically the importance of role modeling.
And so being self-aware and noticingyourself and how these same things might
affect us as parents is super important.
and a great reminder.
Yeah.

Yeah, and role modeling is actually a really important piece of the
second step of this two-step decisiontool, and that is community support.
So parents are huge sources of communitysupport, for kids technology experiences.
And so this is the case.
With little kids.
So when I'm watching Oliver playPeppa's Paintbox, or when he's

(13:18):
watching tv, I'm trying to talkwith him about what he's learning.
So all of that, what I'm doingis providing support around
his technology experience.
When you get into older kids, tweensand teens, you know, they have much
more, more sophisticated internal lives.
You can have more in-depth conversations.
And this, I think, is a greatopportunity to role model, not

(13:41):
just to show your kids look at howI do it, and I'm doing so well.
Because it can be very powerful to showthem what you're struggling with and
maybe even have a dialogue and maybeeven come up with strategies together.
So one very common struggle thatparents and teens have is checking
their phone during the night.
And that's a great opportunity to think,well, maybe we can have a pact where we

(14:05):
put our phones in a different room andyou know, sort of become a team in trying
to, address some of these challenges.

Mm.
I I love that to your point about, asyour kids get older, having dialogue,
having discussion, cuz I think so much of.
At least when I was raising my kidswhen they were a little younger,
were thoughts around limiting thescreen time, and restricting what
it was that they had access to,which I still think is important

absolutely.

And I think what you raise here about not
seeing technology as a necessary evil,but kind of acknowledging that it
exists and taking opportunities whenyou can to have it bring you closer.

Finding common ground I think is so important, finding
connection, especially when you arethinking about tweens and teens, sometimes
conversations can be challenging to have.
And, I think one thing that parentscan do is approach these conversations
with real empathy and curiosity.

(15:10):
And really consider what teensare doing developmentally and
just how important it is to them.
So it's not that they're just hanging outwith their friends, wasting time in the
context of hanging out with their friends.
They're doing really important developmentaround their social development, their
identity development, and you might eventhink of that as a job that they have.

(15:34):
It's their developmental job isto figure out who they are and who
their friends are and what rolethey're gonna play in society.
Sometimes adults minimize or even dismissSome things that teens are doing is
not important, but if we reframe thata little bit and think they're actually
doing a very important job, that'sjust as important as your job or my

(15:55):
job, that can help those conversations.
And really support a connectionbetween parent and child in these
conversations so that teens don't feeljudged or they don't feel dismissed.
It's, that's really importantcuz if they feel that they're not
really being listened to or theirexperiences aren't really being
taken seriously, they're unlikelyto share a lot with their parents.

Hmm hmm.
Now, as you're saying this, I'm recallingan instance where, like, as a, I guess
it was kind of a punishment, but my kneejerk was to restrict access to the device,
but now I'm thinking, To your pointabout kind of that social interaction
being their job and developing as ayoung person and this device being part

(16:42):
of that, what advice do you have forparents in terms of access to technology

Well, I think, you know, parents have many roles that they can play
in this, and one role is as gatekeeper,especially in the early tween years.
There's a lot going on onlineand you don't want your child
to be exposed to all of it.
So I think it's absolutely.
reasonable for parents to play a largerrole, especially in the early teen years.

(17:09):
So, for instance, introducingparental controls.
there's even an operating system that isspecifically, tailored and designed for.
tweens and teens
And I think that that isabsolutely appropriate.
But importantly, I think if.
Parents are going to use these toolslike parental control apps and such.

(17:31):
It's important not just to put themon your child's phone and use them
to spy on them, but rather, use itas a way to engage in conversations
and say, these are the things thatI am concerned about and this is.
What I'm gonna do as a result, and we'regonna have an ongoing dialogue and we're
going to observe and see how things go.

(17:51):
And over time we may remove someof the guardrails as appropriate.
And it's gonna be very individual child tochild because children have very different
trajectories in their development.
And I think, you know, a onesize fits all is not going to
work when it comes to when to.
Introduce a phone, when toallow your child onto social

(18:13):
media and things like that.

That's another thing I loved about, your book was that
real encouragement to be, subjectiveor custom if you will, to your child's
needs and your child's situation.
Cuz I can imagine that.
if you have a child that struggles witha D H D or has some emotional concerns,
you may manage things in a different wayversus, maybe a kid that really wants

(18:38):
to interact with social media strictlyfor, talking about Roblox or talking
about like their games or whatnot.

Kids are all different.
They're all very different.
So in technology's child, I introducedthe idea of a good enough digital parent,
and the overarching framework for that,is first, the recognition of just how
much pressure there is on parents todaywhen it comes to raising their kids.

(19:06):
And it's not just technology, buteverything about parenting, making
sure that you're, you know, feedingthem healthy foods and that you're
signing them up for the best camps.
, and then, you know, putting them on a pathwhere they have had all these experiences
that they get into a good college.
There's just so much pressureon parents, and that applies to
technology experience as well.

(19:27):
And so I introduced the good enoughdigital parent as an antidote to
all of that pressure and that guilt.
the idea actually comes from apediatrician, Donald Winnicott,
from the middle of the 20th century.
and Winnicott was talking aboutthe idea of the good enough mother.
I've updated it at least to say,okay, the good enough parent,

(19:49):
um, um, fathers and mothers equally.
And the idea that when a cop wasputting forward was that actually, if
you're there to respond to every bidyour child makes for attention, then
you're actually doing them a disservice.
So if they're really frustrated, they'retrying to figure out a puzzle or a

(20:11):
homework problem, and if you swoopin and help them solve it, they're
not gonna build the resilience towork through challenging experiences
and solve it for themselves.
If they are super bored and the parentis right there to suggest the next thing
that they can do, they're never gonnalearn how to get themselves unbored.

(20:34):
So it's actually in kids' best interestWinnicott argued for parents to
actually embrace imperfection and notalways be there 100% for your child.
So I bring that idea into the digitalspace and I say, okay, well the
good enough digital parent is gonnado their best to steer their child

(20:55):
towards self-directed communitysupported digital experiences.
But they'll know that they're notgonna be perfect at it because there's
always gonna be a new technology.
They probably don't have time toread all of the reviews in Common
Sense Media before they downloadan app or try out a TV show.
And that's okay.
good enough digital parents,they try things out.

(21:19):
Importantly, they observe how theirchildren react, how they react
themselves, and they adjust accordingly.
good enough digital parents alsorecognize that they're struggling
themselves with technology and thatthey're not gonna be perfect at this,
And that's okay because they know thatthese technologies have been designed
specifically to co-opt our attention.

(21:40):
And sometimes we can use our, stumblesas teaching moments to teach our
children and say, you know what?
I've just become really distracted.
Let, let me turn my phone off and we'lljust focus on the game that we were
playing or whatever we were doing before.
So I'm hoping that this concept ofthe good enough digital parent will

(22:01):
ease some of the guilt that I knowparents are feeling around technology
because I am feeling it as well.
and actually the one other importantpiece is the recognition that
parents have not created all ofthese challenges and they shouldn't
be expected to solve all of them.
I think too often all of the burden ofsociety's ills is placed on the family,

(22:27):
especially in an individualistic societylike the US and so, Recognizing that it's
not just on parents to figure this out,but it's on the government and policy
and the tech industry itself and schools,everybody has a role to play in supporting
children's healthy, digital experiences.

(22:52):
Uh, I really liked this one.
I think technology is such a difficultthing to wrap your head around.
So I kind of loved Katie's reassuranceson the good enough digital parent.
So here are my top six takeaways.
Number one is screen-time good orbad is not really the question.
Technology is embeddedand part of our lives.

(23:15):
Instead let's ask, how does screentime aid, healthy development?
Number two.
Katie has a two step tool for assessingtech first seek self-directed experiences.
Avoid infinite scrolls, attentiontricks, you know, manipulative ploys
within the games or apps they're using.
And secondly, the community supportaspect, connect with your child

(23:38):
by discussing their digital world,what they learn, see, and absorb.
Number three developmentally,it's a teens job to shape their
identity friendships, and whatroles they'll play in society.
So see online interactionsas part of their work.
This helps us approach talks withempathy and compassion and let

(24:00):
them be heard and not feel judged.
Number four parental controlsdo matter, use them as tools to
discuss and share your concerns.
Number five there's no onesize fits all approach to tech.
It really depends on the child.
Each child develops uniquely.
And number six, be a goodenough digital parent.

(24:22):
We have a lot of pressure on us.
Try new things, adjust as needed.
Admit your struggles andembrace imperfection.
To learn more about Katie Davis's workvisit katiedavisresearch.com and all
of her books are available on Amazon orat your favorite bookseller, including
technology's child digital media's rolein the ages and stages of growing up.

(24:47):
It's a helpful read with manyactionable tips and, Digestible advice.
And i recommended for anybodythat's really trying to understand
technology and its impact on kids andwants to incorporate it in a healthy
way into their children's lives.
These links are in the show notes as well.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Thanks so much for listening. (25:09):
undefined
It takes action to claim something.
And by tuning in, you're showingup for yourself and your daughter.
And embodying curiosityand a growth mindset.
Celebrate that.
If you haven't done so already followon your favorite podcasting platform,
tell a friend and leave a review.
Also visit KnowBeRaiseThem.com and dropme a line or a voice memo if you have

(25:32):
questions, comments, or topic ideas.
Again, I am grateful for your time andhere's to strong women may we know them
may we be them and may we raise them

All Episodes

Episode Resources

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Crime Junkie

24/7 News: The Latest

Stuff You Should Know

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Kids, Tech & the Good Enough Digital Parent // with Katie Davis