Roundtable: INTRODUCTION to Language of the Soul

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:45):
Hi guys, and welcome to Language of the Soul podcast,
where life is a story.
And welcome to season three.
For those of you that are newlisteners or have never tuned
in, I'm Dominic Domingo, authorof Young Adult Urban Fantasy
Trilogy, The Nameless Prince,The Seeker, and Language of the
Soul, which became this podcast.

(01:06):
Of course, many other works, butthose are directly related to
our mission here at Language ofthe Soul.
And my partner in crime isproducer and co-host Virginia,
and I'm going to invite her in.
She's a mental health, amongmany other things as well, like
a mother and a wife.
She's a mental health counselorand an author.
Virginia Grenier.

SPEAKER_02 (01:26):
Yeah, thank you.
Um, so I'm glad to be here.
And um just just for our pastlisteners, so they know, because
I know Nick and I were justtalking about this in the grade
room, um, how sometimes I'll saygrinier and sometimes I'll say
grinier.
So I'm just gonna tell you guysthis quick story really quick
before I dive into what, youknow, get you guys all oriented
to what the season's about.

(01:48):
But so the name is French, soit's grinier, which Dominic says
it so much nicer with the withthe French accent.

SPEAKER_00 (01:56):
So it's more pretentiously, yeah.
Grenier.

SPEAKER_02 (01:59):
Thank you.
And then um, but my husband saysthat his family came to America,
he's second generation, and andso he's American and therefore
it's grenier.
So that's that's where thatconfusion comes into.
The ultimate in anglicization oruh I I just gonna say American
botchery of every beautifullanguage out there.

SPEAKER_00 (02:21):
There's one city I'm trying to like a Midwestern
city, not actually Des Moines,Des Moines, Des Moines would be
Des Moines, but there's somecity I'm not gonna think of the
name, but in it's about thelake, LAC Loc.
Something Du Loc.
And um everybody is finebutchering it.
You know what I mean?
It was like I I don't think wehave the right to do that, but

(02:43):
that's another episode, isn'tit?

SPEAKER_02 (02:45):
It is a whole other episode.
It just made me think of likeI've always said the Louvre, and
I know that's not actually howit's correctly pronounced now,
which I have just learned thatand I'm 50.

SPEAKER_00 (02:54):
So you know that one's tricky though, because you
drop the R, it's almostimperceptible.
Louvre, Louvre, yeah, becausewhen I first went to France, and
here we are on a tangentalready, but when I was working
for Disney in Paris, I did studya lot.
Totally different story when youget there, right?
So everybody in the studio wouldI spoke like a five-year-old,

(03:15):
basically, because if I said lesmiserables, les miserables, I
would always do the bleu at theend.
And they're like, no, no, no,think of it like a P, les
miserables, les miserables.
You really drop it.
So with the Louvre, you're fine.
Just say Louvre, pretend the Risn't there.
Because every French word has 12silent letters on the end
anyway, and then depending onthe conjugation, you you

(03:36):
literally spend all your timememorizing these conjugations,
but you don't hear them.
So you're good on the loop.

SPEAKER_02 (03:43):
All right.
So, anyhow, and this wholeconversation's been perfect
because this is our season threeof Language of the Soul podcast.
And why and and and we're gonnaget into why that matters.
Um, but seasons one and two wereborn based out of the ideas of
Dominic's book, Language of theSoul.
And so we've in the last twoyears have dived into just

(04:05):
various conversations, like usjust talking about, you know,
just the language in general.
Um, but we didn't start with apodcast focusing on the book
itself for that reason.
We wanted to really establishwhat our mission was.
So for the first time, we'removing beyond just the core
premise, because the first twoseasons were inspired by the

(04:25):
core premise of the book, thatlife is a story and that the
stories we tell shape who webecome.
But now we want to explore inthis season of the podcast, get
more into the depths.
So in the past two seasons, goback, listen if you haven't.
We've talked to some greatguests, artists, writers,
thinkers who really embodied theideas in different ways.
We even had wrote questions thatwe would ask them that got into

(04:48):
talking about what story meantfor them, and sometimes without
really explicitly naming that umjust outright.
So, however, in season three,it's gonna be different.
This season is a consciousturning toward the source.
So we're slowing down, we'redigging deeper, and we're gonna
engage the book directly chapterby chapter.

(05:10):
Each month we're gonna behitting a different chapter of
the book, and we're using it asa framework for the
conversations to unfold betweenmyself and Dominic, and as we
bring other guests in along theway.
So, with that in mind, the firstquestion I actually have for
Dominic, I really want to getinto the introduction itself.
So, before we get into theintroduction of the book, I want
to talk a little bit about whyyou, Dominic, and I both started

(05:34):
the podcast before walkingthrough the book and why now it
feels the right moment to dothat.

SPEAKER_00 (05:41):
Well, in my memory, the initial premise was to bring
on guests that would support thecontent of the book.
So when it does go intospecifics like the brain
chemistry or theneurotransmitters that are
created when we indulge instory, I just always wanted to
bring in experts or guests thatcould either augment the
conversation or add to it insome way, or just validate the

(06:02):
premises that I lay out in thebook.
I just connect dots, but I'm notreally an expert in anything.
So I just wanted initially tohave experts on that could say,
yeah, when it comes toepigenetics, you're absolutely
right, or you got that kind ofwrong and let me set you
straight.
That was the initial idea withexperts.
But as you know, one by one, anunintended consequence.
A beautiful gift was that almostall of our self-professed

(06:27):
storytellers in the literaryrealm or in cinema had had a
similar brush with death or cometo Jesus moment, say it how you
want, but they put purpose onthe front burner.
So, in my estimation, ourconversation started really
leaning toward yes, why we tellstories in the first place.

(06:48):
And as you know, in thisintroduction, I talk about the
impetus for writing the book,which was that online course.
And uh, I just quickly learned,like, yeah, I have no interest
in adding to the noise when itcomes to the technique and the
craft and the nuts and bolts.
And it became more about I wasmore passionate about imparting
the why part of the equation,why we tell stories in the first
place.
So, yeah, I'm so proud of all ofour episodes.

(07:10):
As I've said a million times, noduds.
I feel very blessed.
It serves me and I believe youas well.
And I think we're offering somereally good content.
But I think the reason wedecided to go back to the book
directly or confirm or deny, butit seemed like with guests, when
we would touch on again themechanics of paradigm shift on

(07:32):
the macro scale, it would becomealmost reductionist where it was
a talking point or sort of aplatitude.
And it just, I want to dojustice is the best way to put
it to the content of the book.
So they're not just um soundbites, you know.

SPEAKER_02 (07:48):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (07:48):
That's where that's why I'm excited to get back into
the book.
And why is it the perfectmoment?
Um, because it's so needed.
You know, here I go preaching.
But with fascism on the horizon,I think we need to advocate for
the arts.
Create creative expression as anend in itself, and specifically
storytelling, because it'salways been the first target of

(08:10):
fascist regimes.
That's why personally I thinkit's needed more now than ever.
What do you think about allthat?

SPEAKER_02 (08:17):
I agree with you.
I mean, and I also think that ifwe would have started with the
book first, um boring.
Yeah, yeah.
I boring.
It would have been.
I think that it was reallyimportant more to focus on the
mission of what the book wastrying to impart.
And with that said, because aswe bring in guests for season

(08:37):
three to hit on, you know,invite them to talk about
specific chapters of the bookwith us, um, it's allowed us to
meet those like-mindedindividuals.
So I guess you could say it wasalso our vetting process.
Not that that's what we weresetting out to do, but it did it
did allow us to vet who we feelwere, you know, people we could
bring back to actually dig deepinto those conversations.

(08:59):
And I think you're right.
I I talking points, platitudes,I think sometimes too that when
we're talking with guests,because you're not trying to say
they're trying to sell theirwares, but it's definitely, you
know, it's more of a generalconversation that you're doing
this delicate dance with versusreally going in, well, we're not
trying to impart our initiativeor thoughts, beliefs, or values

(09:23):
with every single guest, becausethen that makes it an
unwelcoming environment.
So that's why we've turned thetables like, hey, we want you to
come back, but instead offocusing on you, we're gonna
focus on these exact directthings that the book is focusing
on, and you've hit on thesebefore when we had you on as a
guest.

SPEAKER_01 (09:39):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (09:39):
So let's dig deep.
And I think that's what makes itmore meaningful and carries that
conversation deeper.

SPEAKER_00 (09:45):
You're absolutely right.
We um didn't intentionally vet,but we came to like, oh, this
would be the perfect guest toattach to, you know, the
catharsis section or, you know,what whatever it is, uh the
archetype section.
We have a mythologist that'sperfect to come on to talk about
the chapter called Story andArchetype, right?
And and their story and meaning.
And yes, that's how we came uponthese guests that are perfect to

(10:08):
have back on.
And yeah, I think, I mean, notto air too much dirty laundry,
but I think we were always apodcast that was about
contributing to the dialecticand the conversation.
And we were not here just to forpeople to plug their wares or um
self-promote.
We're fine with that, and we'rehappy to highlight and showcase
artists that are sacrificing fortheir art.
I guess I've learned not to saysacrificing, but they're

(10:30):
investing in their art.
And it's beautiful to seepeople, you know, motivated to
make a difference in the world.
So to me, it's inseparable.
If you have reached thatmilestone where your art is not
just a craft or a moneymaker,but it's your contribution to
humanity, it's all one and thesame.
So I don't know that we vetted,but I think you and I both

(10:51):
sometimes would go, ooh, thatleaned a little too heavy
towards self-promotion.
And they weren't really, theyjust had their talking points,
but it didn't run very deep.
And we just I think found ouridentity more and more,
especially when we hooked upwith a publicist and started, it
felt a little bit like a milland an obligation to highlight
people and their product.

(11:12):
I think we just kind offine-tuned our intention.
And uh those that couldn'tengage in the conversation just
as an end in itself, but werereally there just to promote
their wares, it was very clear,wasn't it?

SPEAKER_02 (11:24):
Yes, yes, absolutely.
And again, you know, not not abad thing by any means, because
you know, um, I just actuallyhad this conversation the other
day with my partner about justkind of you know, humanity as a
whole and how it seems like theartistic, and I'm gonna say the
heart, the artistic mind.
So the ones who are deeply umempathically touched by um be so

(11:52):
it's that attunement, they'remore congruent with observation,
um pulling from their ownpersonal experiences, which is
to me the artist's mind, right?
That it's such a smallpopulation, and that I think
that the majority of thepopulation has a hard time doing
that introspective work, goinginto that, you know, um, and you

(12:14):
even talk about it, you know,the the nirvana mindset, right?
Um, and the altruistic or moreof an altruistic, you know, just
kind of perspective to kind oflook at at a higher level down
and then go back from the bottomup and just kind of see
everything, how the system worksfrom from all angles.
And I think artists do that.

(12:35):
You guys are constantly turningthat lens and looking from
different viewpoints.

SPEAKER_00 (12:39):
Funny that you didn't include yourself in that.

SPEAKER_02 (12:42):
I I do when I'm doing my writing.

SPEAKER_00 (12:44):
Last episode you said that to you guys.
You guys, come on.
But it's not your natural stateof being, you don't think?

SPEAKER_02 (12:51):
You don't um it it is if I let myself go very
philosophical, absolutely.
And and I think that's what thispodcast does, is we're allowing
even even when guests have comeon to talk about the wares, it's
it's it's showing how importantit is for this percentage of the
population that that walks inthis very different, not

(13:13):
concrete thinking realm, youknow.

SPEAKER_00 (13:16):
I have a lot of reactions to that.
Um, I just think we should getspecific because when we speak
in generalities, um, you know,I'm not about to define art or
beauty or what makes an artist.
Like that's that's tricky.
And I also, for good or bad,I've been surrounded by people
who again, I I'm not sureexactly what you're saying, but

(13:39):
you know, my whole introductionis about I saw through the
matrix from the minute I cameout of the womb.
And I, you know, Ayn Rand wouldsay we hold up a mirror to
society and we literallyexpressed our metaphysical
values as humans.
And that's why, and we could gointo the introduction and talk
about the sea monkeys or or talkabout you know that moment with

(14:01):
my grandmother on the cliff, orwhy did I even mention those
things?
Because, you know, like Horton,here's a who is another
reference I make.
I saw not just the cloverblossom, but the entire world on
the clover blossom.
And I'm not saying I'm specialor different, but that was my
temperament and my disposition.
And as I say in theintroduction, only later did I
realize, oh, wow, everythingI've ever created is toward that

(14:24):
end.
And it sounds condescending, notjust enlightening people, but
literally opening their eyes toanything but the fucking surface
level of things.
So, right, so it could be themetaphysical reality, not just
the human condition, but what isthe nature of consciousness
expressed in the physical realm?
That's not every artist, but AynRand would say it is.

(14:45):
Ayn Rand is would say all aretrue artists, right?
And that's where theconversation often goes back to
the age-old intersection betweenart and commerce.
I've just realized a lot of thethings we're distinguishing and
parsing between come back tothat almost cliche intersection
of art and commerce.
So I would love to talk moreabout that, but I'd love to be

(15:06):
specific because everything yousaid, I'm like, yeah, I kind of
agree with that, but I'm notsurrounded by people like your
partner.
I'm not.
I've gone to art school.
I'm surrounded only really, Imean, I only make friends with
people that don't buy asocialization hook, line, and
sinker that actually see throughit.
And uh that's what floats myboat.
So I don't like to live in abubble, and I will just say for

(15:28):
good or bad, I don't encounterstaunch empiricists.
Very well, that's not true.
I've got a lot of roommates thatwere staunch empiricists, but I
it doesn't, I don't think aboutthat much.
That as you said, most of theworld doesn't dwell in a I mean,
I'll let you express it.
I just what I heard was like,I'm in a minority, and eh, I
don't know about that.
When people say artists aresensitive or whatever, I I

(15:50):
think, well, we all have thecapacity to be.
Here's one example.
If you read um, and now we'renot really off in the weeds,
this is directly related to mybook.
I read The Biology of Belief byBruce Lipton, which is about
cell biology, as I was writingthis book.
So I was so immersed in it.
And then I read Metahuman byDeepak Chopra.
I've read all his work, butthese things were informing me

(16:12):
in real time as I wrote thebook.
So I think it was Metahuman thattalks about every human, not
just an artist, every humancould distinguish between, I
forget what it was, but like onemolecule layer on a wafer, just
through touch, one moleculethick layer of I forget what it
was, could be perceived.

(16:34):
Same thing with vision.
You can perceive one particle oflight in a huge, vast space, and
that's all humans.
So when I hear characterizationsof artists, I'm like, I don't
know, we're all capable.
Even when it comes to empathyand compassion or the platonic
values that you were hinting at,they all have the capacity to be

(16:56):
that.
And I'm not here to sayeverybody should be an artist,
but I think artists are here tohold up that mirror and remind
people of the metaphysical,maybe what really matters.
And that's no small thing incultural dialectic or the
progression of paradigms,thought forms that become
policy, that become law.
We play a huge role.
That's that's all I'm saying,but I'm not about to define I

(17:18):
don't feel different thananyone.
I don't.

SPEAKER_02 (17:21):
Well, and that's that's where I was gonna go with
it.
And I knew you would jump inthere and and say it so
beautifully.
But yeah, that's that's what I'msaying.
Is that's what I feel likeartists are are here to do is to
help remind the rest the restthat aren't in that are always
walking in that realm.

SPEAKER_00 (17:35):
Right.
Well, I will say my mybrother-in-law may be similar to
your husband, but he's so youknow, Jim, he's he's been on the
podcast, and he even startedsaying, Well, I don't dwell in
that space, I'm not veryperceptive.
And and I took, well, Jim, you Iwas in that play and literally
in 1991 at Northridge orwhatever it was, 87 maybe at

(17:58):
Northridge, and it was the mostprofound avant-garde piece of
theater I'd ever seen.
It was very conceptual, and Ipointed that out, and he goes,
Well, but I don't live in thatspace.
Like you said, I can go there,but it's not my default state.
And so I that's what I loveseeing is despite themselves,
uh, I think people have thecapac, I don't know what I'm
saying, have the capacity tothink conceptually or maybe even

(18:20):
to be introspective or uh tolive an examined life.
That's what I'm pushing for,right?
They say an examined life is notworth living.
I'm a big subscriber to that.

SPEAKER_02 (18:32):
And I absolutely agree with you.
And and that's that's exactlywhat I was talking about.
It's not that I don't thinkanybody can uh or can't do it.

SPEAKER_00 (18:38):
Um they choose not to.

SPEAKER_02 (18:40):
Yes, exactly.
We they choose not to, and Ithink that's that's what I'm
saying is the art, the artistsare are the art mirrors to to
remind us of of this other thisuh these other lenses in which
to walk through.

SPEAKER_00 (18:49):
But before we go further, well, I sorry, I have
one more thing.
Yeah, because I realized theonly reason I brought up Jim,
and I'm not throwing him underthe bus, I'm giving him a
shout-out.
Uh, he'll remember.
I mean, I've known him since Iwas 11, and I'm 57.
Every now and then he'll go, Ohmy god, Nick.
You and my daughter, Tessa.

(19:10):
Now I'm giving anothershout-out.
Like, you guys see the dabble oflight.
You you notice the bird.
I would never notice the bird,you know, to the north-northwest
in that tree a block away.
And maybe we do have heightenedsenses, and maybe we nurture
them, you know.
If you go out and play an airpaint every day, you're attuning
to all the stimuli around you,and you're you're making it's

(19:31):
like uh exercising a muscle,maybe.
But I just think it'sfascinating that people can
notice what artists noticebecause of their arguably
heightened senses and talk aboutit, but maybe their DMN is
stronger, you know, default modenetwork is stronger and it tunes

(19:51):
out more stimuli.
Maybe we have more serotonin, Idon't know.
But I think we all could nurturethose qualities if we wanted to,
and we could all build thatmuscle if we wanted to.

SPEAKER_02 (20:03):
Oh, yeah.
I I absolutely 100% agree.
But I want to say before we goany further, I want to say to
listen to the listeners, if youhaven't listened to the previous
episode, it's Dominic readingthe introduction to Language of
the Soul, How Story Became theMeans by Which We Transform.
I'd really encourage you topause right here and to go back
and to listen to that first.

(20:24):
Because in that introduction,it's not just the preference to
the book, it's the philosophicaland ethical framework for this
entire season and honestly forthis podcast as a whole.
We're going to be stretching thewhole season around the idea
that story isn't simplysomething we consume or create,
it's a primary way human beingsmake meaning.
So every Every episode werelease from here on out,

(20:47):
whether you're whether we'retalking to the artists, writers,
educators, musicians, thinkers,it's going to circle back to the
questions that are raised in theintroduction.
So today we're just going to bedoing more than just summarizing
the introduction, we're going tobe unpacking it.
So that's going to take me rightback to going to that
introduction again and to yourpersonal entry point into this

(21:09):
book, Dominic.
When you were sitting down andwriting the introduction
introduction, um, or as astatement of values about how
story operates within culture, Iwould love for you to kind of
touch on that because you openit talking about, like you
mentioned just a second ago, howit starts started with the fact
you were this workshop that youwere working on it.

(21:30):
So it really got you focused tothink about what is this entry
point into this world that I amgonna unfold before the reader.

SPEAKER_00 (21:40):
Well, again, I don't have the introduction open in
front of me, but I I wrote it,so I remember it pretty well.
But just for fun, I'll say whatI said to you earlier, which is
I'm doing a lot of narrating foraudiobooks now, and uh or at
least a lot of auditioning, evenif I don't get it, I tend to be
reading a lot of introductionsto a lot of not self-help, what

(22:01):
do we call it now?
Um personal growth.
What is it?
Personal growth?

SPEAKER_02 (22:05):
Personal growth, yeah.
Um, life coaching.

SPEAKER_00 (22:08):
All of that, yeah.
Yeah.
A lot of nonfiction books.
But in that realm, well, there'salso a whole genre called
transformational books.
And thinking back, that was abig impetus for writing my book.
It was mid-pandemic.
I had, you know, I was embroiledin my struggles with my health
and literally regaining myagency.
And so it was in real time, itwas reflecting my growth.

(22:31):
But I do, it came to me theother day, I won't say any
names, but a friend of mine whowas in HR at Disney had taken a
weekend workshop about writingyour book, telling your story.
But it was very much like as anextension of your platform or
your brand.
You know, everybody needs a TEDtalk to grow their brand, and
everyone needs an effing book.
And so now that I'm doing theseuh nonfiction books for Audible,

(22:56):
every single one of them followsa formula.
And I did upload a video to ourYouTube if anyone wants to check
it out about the hangnailcrisis.
And then there's another onecalled the Lost Soc Crisis.
So literally workshops, I justfigured it out over time.
These workshops say you need toidentify the problem that nobody
has, by the way, and through thepower of suggestion, make sure

(23:19):
it's urgent to them.
Right.
Then you talk about next whyyou're the perfect expert to
address this topic.
Tie it back to, yeah, a personalanecdote.
Story is everything, right?
And then you explain why you'rethe perfect expert to solve
their problem.
You point out that this book isyour handbook, it's your, you
know, it's your guide, it's yourlighthouse.

(23:41):
Use it, you know, in yourgrowth.
Then you say, and if it doesn'twork, it's not my fault.
It might be your level ofcommitment to this mission.
And so there's all these thingsthat just become old tired
tropes.
So when I wrote my introduction,it was very inspired.
I wasn't following any templatelike that, if that makes sense.

(24:02):
So sorry for the long answer,but my memory is I did start by
saying exactly that that theword story is being usurped by
propaganda, advertising, youknow, even um brand building and
uh platform building.
And so it just became almosttiresome.
And there's a funny sequence inuh anybody's ever seen bros, the

(24:24):
rom-com bros, where one of thecharacters says, Okay, instead
of telling our effing stories,let's create a wing in this
museum where you go to shut thefuck up.
So I felt I did feel like, wow,story has transformation.
Story in the way that hasactually served the tribe from

(24:45):
day one, arguably from oralhistory around the campfire, has
all these outcomes.
It has an intention, but moreimportantly, it has all these
outcomes.
Story for propaganda, for thealmighty dollar, for political
campaigning, for powermongering.
All those outcomes, do you knowwhat I mean, are the complete
opposite of how story hastraditionally served us.

(25:06):
So I start out by kind ofcomically pointing that out
that, you know, everyone's got astory to tell.
My mom was right.
Every fisherman on the PassaicRiver that she stopped and
talked to when I was way toobusy for that in my 20s and 30s.
Now I'm my mom had the rightidea.
Everybody does have a story, butI very much parse between

(25:26):
storytelling as transformation,and we do break it down in the
book the mechanics, uh, thechemistry behind that,
individually and collectively.
And then, yeah, story for thealmighty dollar.
People that talk about, oh, yougotta have this and you gotta
have the cliffhanger, and yougotta sure they understand the
chemistry behind it, but I'm alittle suspect of the intention,

(25:48):
if that makes sense.
So, again, a little preaching,but for me, story transforms
when it's inspired.
It takes a little while toreally grasp what is meant by
inspiration.
And the book takes 300 andsomething pages to explain it.
But inspiration arguably comesfrom collective consciousness,
it comes from the consciousnessthat understands what's needed

(26:12):
next in our dialectic, lest weperish.
It's all about propagation.
So you can get as wacky andwoo-woo as you want with that,
but energetic signaling isinformation.
You can call a God, you knowwhat I mean, put give him a long
white beard, put him on a cloud,do what you want with it.
But it's pretty inarguable thatinformation is being passed

(26:34):
locally and non-locally inenergetic form, uh from cell to
cell, you know what I mean, fromorganism to organism, and
arguably from the universeitself through us as little
antennas, because it knowswhat's needed next.
So you can't buy that shit, AIcan't do it, and it's called

(26:55):
inspiration.
Just think about it.

SPEAKER_02 (26:57):
I absolutely agree with you.
And it goes, it goes to um innarrative therapy, they talk
about, and I know I've mentionedthis a few times um throughout
the time we've been on thepodcast, but there's the four
categories.
It's the the uh the first storyis the for family of origin
story, which is the story thatthat sets up our body's belief
system and in which the world inwhich the way we see the world.

(27:20):
And to me, that always remindsme of like the campfire stories,
right?
When we sat around in the oldtimes and the stories are passed
down generation to generation togeneration, um, is how I always
think of the family of origin.
And then we have the storiesthat um that happened.
So like we all know COVIDhappened.
Like that's that's a story weall can 100% go, yep, we know

(27:40):
that narrative.
Um, the stories in which we tellourselves, which I feel is that
inner, you know, um part, thatpiece that you're talking about
um just now.
And then the last one, which cango either way, which is the
stories we're told, which iswhere I think a lot of the
propaganda propaganda marketing,you know, the almighty Miller
sits.
Um and as you were talking aboutthat, I started thinking about

(28:01):
um, I don't know why it poppedin my mind, but um the producers
and how that was their wholetheir whole spin.
They were like sell, right?
They were selling this wholeproduction that they were gonna
do, which was a story, thisnarrative they were spinning.
And of course they were hopingit was gonna fail so they could,
you know, make money off theloss of the and I'm just they're

(28:23):
talking about going, yeah.
I mean, there you go.

SPEAKER_00 (28:25):
It's been a while.
It's been a while for me, butI'm I remember it being very
meta, right?
Like it was a microcosm, a storywithin a story, and but it was
largely about World War II,wasn't it?
And the Holocaust.

SPEAKER_02 (28:39):
Um, that was going on, and that's what their play
was gonna be about.
And I think probably I'm inHitler, which is yeah, exactly,
which is kind of funny becausethat makes me think of the uh
the one that's out about Stalin,uh, where they're making fun of
of Stalin.
I can't remember the name of it,but anyways, um yeah, but they
were hoping it was gonna fail,of course.

(29:00):
And so that was a way that theywere spinning a narrative.

SPEAKER_00 (29:04):
Yeah, it's it anyway.
Um I did hear something in therethough that I to tie it back to
the book, I wanted to quitbefore I forget, quickly go back
to something you said.
I think you said the fourthoutcome was vicarious.
Can you can you say that again?

SPEAKER_02 (29:20):
Um the fourth the fourth, the fourth narrative,
which is the stories that thatare told to us, so that can be
uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (29:29):
So so sorry.
So in the book, it's just worthsaying we go into this idea that
if you we're going back tosquare one here, all organisms
experience stimuli.
You all day, every you leaveyour um house, or if it's a
snake, you leave your hole inthe ground, you go out into the

(29:49):
world, you experience experiencestimuli all day.
Collectively, some stimuli cancomprise what we call events.
So every event you encounterthroughout the day, your brain
quickly files as a threat or anopportunity.
So spiritually, it's nice tothink, oh, everything's neutral
except your experience of it,what you project onto it.

(30:12):
But your body, your physiologyknows when to go into flight or
flight mode or not.
So I just think of it as threatsor opportunities.
And either if it's accompaniedby high emotion, it'll get
mapped on your worldview, right?
So that if your offspringexperience a snake, they know to
run the other way.
Or if they experience the colorred and their physiology kicks

(30:33):
in, it's mapped, if that makessense.
And same with opportunities.
Everything, you know, you can dostudies by decade or century
about ideals of beauty, and theydo change.
But within reason, indicators ofif somebody's in their sexual
prime, it signals propagation.
Oh, birthing hips, love it.
Long hair, long fingernails, alittle color in the cheeks.

(30:53):
Those are all signals.
And so threats or opportunitiesis how I put it.
And even on a cellular level,every chemical influence in the
environment inspires a growthresponse or a protection
response.
So I went into that to say ifthat's the case for every
organism, humans may well be theonly ones, because of our

(31:16):
extremely sophisticated limbicsystems, right, that have
sentience, number one, whichbecomes free will at some point.
But we're also the onlyorganisms that can learn
vicariously.
So if you have this, you know,in your DNA, you have cellular
memory, you have everythingepigenetics gifts you for your
survival.
If you encounter something nohuman has ever encountered

(31:37):
before, that will get mappedtoo.
And so we add to it, we add tothe database, and we may be that
may be unique to humans, maybenot, but what is unique is
learning vicariously throughothers.
So when we partake in story, andwell, we can get into the
chemistry or not, but thesuggestibility that dopamine and

(31:57):
epinephrine and all theseeuphoric chemicals secrete in
us, make us more receptive,number one.
And there's a little bit oftrust in the tribe or the
storyteller or the collectivethat makes you more suggestible.
And that's the power of film, ifthat makes sense.
So we're actually adding to thedatabase and augmenting.
And that is for good or bad.

(32:19):
If you take in too much FoxNews, otherwise known as
propaganda, that's the scaryimplication of how a story can
add to the database of ourideologies, uh, if it doesn't
serve humanity.
So I don't know if that's makingany sense, but that's what I
heard in number four.
We learn vicariously, and we maywell be the only ones that map

(32:39):
things that we have heardthrough gossip or through
propaganda.

SPEAKER_02 (32:44):
Yes, absolutely.
And it actually goes to um whereI was going to take us next,
which is when I went back andwas re-listening to the book's
introduction, what stood out tome was how um early story shows
up, um, not as just art or butas orientation, like you're just
talking about.
So before story is something wetell, it's something that we use

(33:06):
to locate ourselves inexistence.
Um, so which, you know, for you,you talked about like the sea
monkeys, and you mentioned thatjust a second ago, the desert
cliff, the question ofconnectedness, um, and how those
aren't just anecdotes.
They're moments of consciousnessawaking.
Um and so what I hear in thatthread of thought, both in the

(33:27):
reduction, even what you're justtalking about, is that there's a
re a resistance to the reductionof it, that story reduction uh
being reduced to branding, umbeing um sued by slogans right,
that the creativity part um isreduced to an output.
Um, and so going back to that,what I was talking about when I

(33:49):
was talking about the four partsof narrative therapy that they
look at in that philosophicallens, I feel like what you're
describing is a distinction umyou're making is which is also
clear in the book, is that storythat transforms versus story
that is used to manipulate umfor the Almighty dollar to
persuade and to basically takeour our own personal power away

(34:13):
from us.
Um and I think that's sad whenwhen story is used that way,
because it does bypass the soul,as you said.

SPEAKER_00 (34:20):
Um well, if I could jump in, I I do feel that um I'm
an elitist for sure, and I amnot trying to preach elitism,
but I'm sharing schools ofthought that you know I didn't
invent, by the way.
So I to really qualifyeverything, the stories I
personally respond to are theones that transform me.

(34:42):
And if it's meant to titillatefor the Almighty Dollar or for
box office proceeds or forbestseller status, I simply, for
good or bad, don't respond tocommercial ventures because the
intent transcends.
And so I will just leave it atthat.
There's no good, bad, right, orwrong.
And I have my guilty pleasures.
I love pop music, I love, do youknow what I mean, vacuous

(35:04):
content that just entertains meand makes me laugh.
I have a lot of guiltypleasures, but I don't for a
minute call it art.
So I just want to say that ifsomebody identifies as somebody
with a love of cinema that justwants to be part of that
tradition, that is a beautifulthing.
It's better than you know,building nuclear bombs to put
food on the table and roofsoverheads.
So my elitism is a littletongue-in-cheek.

(35:26):
I am offering in the book, hereis the traditional definition of
artistic integrity and literaryvalue.
That in itself is elitist,right?
Who is anyone to declare whatconstitutes beauty or art or
even what makes an artist?
I proffer in the book, I talkabout a lot of romantic ideals

(35:47):
that are very elitist andfrankly, I don't resonate with.
You know, I I don't want to goon and on, but you know, letters
to a young poet I reference andsome of the romantic ideas in
there about what it is to be anartist.
And every everybody has todecide for themselves what makes
sense.
But I do still subscribe to sometraditional definitions of art

(36:10):
and redemptive outcomes inliterature, for example, that
transform the individual andthereby, through the ripple
effect, evolve society.
And there's this term called thenoosphere that I love.
That's the invisible sphere,conceptual sphere of our norms,
mores, ethics, morals,principles, codes that we live

(36:33):
by that become laws.
And my premise in the book isthat the evolution of that
noosphere is as important asthat of our biology.
We would have been extinct along time ago if our ideas
didn't evolve.
And that includes the platonicvalues that you were hinting at.
There's it's no kind of all overthe place, but it's no mistake

(36:53):
that Muhammad in Jesus andBuddha kind of arose in human
history in a very short windowof time.
It's because we evolved to a thepoint where competing over
resources and killing ourselveswas not serving the propagation
of the species, maybe the tribe,but certainly not the species.
So it was rather new.

(37:14):
This message of love andinterconnectivity and regard,
right, for what it is to behuman was rather new.
So, anyway, I you could arguethat all storytelling stemmed
not just from the myths thatexplained why a volcano just
decimated that village.
You know, the a lot of myths didexplain nature, but then they

(37:35):
evolved to become, if you kindof follow the dialectic of um
liturgy, the keepers of uhmorals and ethics and uh the
ways in which we impart thosevalues to younger generations.
I'm kind of all over the placehere.
But uh, those are the stories toreally explain the elitist
mindset that you were hintingat.

(37:55):
Uh I don't think there's anygood, bad, right or wrong kind
of story to tell, but you canconsider these schools of
thought and then just uh take alittle responsibility for the
kind of stories you're puttingout into the universe.
So now we're kind of hinting atthe devil's cocktail and the
angel's cocktail that I go intoin the book.
And that's not my own idea,that's uh something something

(38:16):
I'm sharing from anotherresource.
But you know, I'm not amoralist.
In fact, moralism is frownedupon and it actually erodes
artistic integritytraditionally.
If you have an agenda, it pushesyour content into the realm of
propaganda.
So art traditionally exploresall sides of the thematic coin.

(38:37):
Without being preachy ordidactic, it explores all sides
of the coin, whatever your themeis.
And it does speak to the humancondition and hopefully invites
pondering and even provokes,right?
But the minute you start issuingprescriptive didactic morals or
lessons, it's propaganda bydefinition.
So anyway, I'm not an elitistreally, but I do still adhere to

(39:02):
some of those tenets becauseright now, I'll just give you
one quick example.
Sorry for this long tirade, butI did just see a video or read
an article, I can't remember,saying, I mean, we've all known
with streaming, you know, andthen you have hybrid releases
where maybe there's a quickcinematic run, but pretty much
the majority of people arewatching content while holding

(39:24):
their laundry or doing theirnails or scrolling on their cell
phone.
So we've always known thecontent is kind of being dumbed
down for this short attentionspan, cultural ADD, I call it.
But this latest article wassaying all, like let's say,
creator-driven content forNetflix.
The directive now is don't justmake it easily palatable or

(39:47):
digestible for distractedpeople.
You need to literally use thecharacters as mouthpieces now,
and every few minutes remindthem of the whole premise,
right?
And explain the uh expositionthrough dialogue, which is a
no-no in screenwriting.
So we've had guests on that havetalked about we're not really
just dumbing the populace down,but we're robbing them of the

(40:10):
ability to process nuance,right?
And do you remember that episodewhere we talked about well, what
do you mean by nuance?
Um, irony, humor.
I mean, I see a lot of reels onInstagram where the ticker or
the C the closed captions arebeing used to explain the humor
because they have no categoryfor it.

(40:31):
So younger generations will go,ooh, she's clapping back, ooh,
she's throwing shade.
And it's like, no, that's calleda conversation with wit and
humor.
So anyway, I I adhere to some ofthese traditional definitions
because I don't like.
what I'm seeing.

SPEAKER_02 (40:46):
No, and that makes sense.
So let's let's throw this outthere because I this is what I
think I'm hearing in this.
And when I say what um say this,it's because I'm not saying
that, you know, one form oranother is better when it comes
to um the way story is told.
But when story just, you know,the narrative, a narrative that

(41:10):
is being told right within thestory is allowed to function as
it always has, which is tohopefully inspire to get us,
like you said, to look, youknow, to to contemplate, to
reflect, to go and ask those tothe why question.
So I'm gonna say where where itcauses our brain to become
curious, to want, to understandor or or figure out what what is

(41:34):
this telling me?
Would you say then that that isthe premise behind story where
it moves us because it createsthat meaning bonding and
catharsis.

SPEAKER_00 (41:48):
Well I think in our next episode well probably two
from now when we discuss chapterone, we're going to go into
literally bullet point by bulletpoint why we tell stories.
And there's a number ofdifferent outcomes, right?
But I think sociologists andanthropologists and mythologists
and the Joseph Campbells of theworld have chimed in as well.

(42:08):
And there is a list of outcomes.
So we'll save that for you knowchapter one.
But um what exactly was thequestion I didn't quite follow
it.

SPEAKER_02 (42:17):
Um when story is allowed to function as it always
has and so it touches people soit gets them to literally it it
brings up that curiosity forthem to go into introspective to
really just go wait a minute huhand ponder would you say that
that that's that's where you'regoing with what when you're as

(42:38):
we dive into this book whereit's creating that meaning that
bonding and that catharsis?

SPEAKER_00 (42:44):
Well there's a lot in there but that's conflated
but in chapter one again I thinkwe go into the chemical basis of
storytelling and that's whatI've hinted is being usurped or
hijacked or appropriated bycommerce.
But traditionally one view isthat yeah it has all these
outcomes for the tribe and ifyou just go with tribal bonding

(43:08):
we could write a whole chapteron that right the brain waves
synchronizing during a drumcircle or heartbeat
synchronizing and how that kindof bonding serves the tribe
because you're exposing ourshared humanity and um how could
that not aid in our propagationour proliferation our survival

(43:30):
so it bonds the tribe but that'sI think it's oxytocin that
creates the trust and the tribalbonding.
So that happens around thecampfire everybody there is more
suggestible and therefore morereceptive to the thematic
content because there's you knowthe walls come down.
So that's a little bit separatefrom catharsis which you know

(43:52):
Plato fought long and hard forthis idea of catharsis in the
face of fascism.
So if all of us are in let's saythe artist I use this example of
Bonnie Reid she writes a songabout heartbreak.
And man you can write you can doa whole laundry list of ways in
which it serves her asconfessional as venting as

(44:13):
unloading it's got to be somekind of emotional release to
literally write the song in thefirst place.
But then right somebody in theMidwest turns on their car radio
and they experience the verysame catharsis.
They feel less alone oh my Godsomebody on the planet has felt
the same way I have after aheartbreak.
And now I'm literally almostquoting the book but that's kind

(44:34):
of the completion of the circuitnow imagine people everywhere
are hearing Bonnie Wright's songbecause it's number one on you
know on the charts.
So through the ripple effect itcan affect society at large.
And I mean some would say if wedidn't have our regular
catharsis by taking in cinemaopera ballet by reading a good

(44:57):
book maybe the pent upaggression would be
counterproductive for the tribe.
So I don't subscribe to that somuch because the extreme of that
would be this idea that oh youget out your aggressions by
going to a soccer match you knowand uh I I think that's that
never serves the tribe.
When you elicit aggressionthrough cortisol and adrenaline

(45:21):
and um all these other chemicalswhich again are called the
devil's cocktail you might bepersonally feeding an addiction
to again adrenaline and cortisolum but then there's the cultural
addiction to violence.
So I don't want to be moralisticas I've said a million times I
think to tell a great story youhave to show the light and the

(45:43):
shadow the good and the bad theyin and the yong right otherwise
there's no conflict but what isgratuitous and what directly
serves the resolution of thatconflict the story arc is in the
eye of the beholder but I thinkwe know it when we see it right
which one is just feeding acultural addiction to violence

(46:04):
and in some cases normalizing itand which one is like oh it's
germane and integral to the plotuh I go into some examples.
Dave Megasy wrote an entire bookin the 70s after leaving the NFL
about his premise was theinstitutionalized violence and
aggression in sports hashabituated us to the violence in

(46:26):
Vietnam and again I can't Ihaven't read it but he probably
takes many pages to make thatcase and I just can't disagree
you know soccer riots happen fora reason Hitler rallies happen
for a reason orange assholerallies happen for a reason.
So again without beingmoralistic I think these are
worth you know if you identifyas a storyteller all these

(46:49):
outcomes are worth thinkingabout because then you just get
to decide what kind of storiesdo I want to put out of the
universe are they redemptive?
Do they offer something to thecollective or do they maybe feed
something that'scounterproductive?
Yeah that's that's the most uhmoralistic I get you know ethics
that's a big word but I I don'tlike to be moralistic about it

(47:09):
but just think about it what amI in unintentionally doing or
intentionally doing with mystorytelling right and I was
saying and in the introductionyou actually get into that when
you're talking that you touch onthe ethics and the
responsibility of even being ateacher when you share the story
of um being of of seeing peoplebe made to feel broken.

SPEAKER_02 (47:35):
And when that happens when people are
supported and recognizing whatis already alive in them the
difference and and I thinkthere's humility here that I I
don't want us to gloss overbecause I I feel like you're
touching on that and you and youdo get into that in the
introduction.
You're not just positioningyourself as a gatekeeper of

(47:56):
truth.
You're explicit explicitly umhave a perspective about the
limits of certainty and refusingto use a role right that
somebody can be in um or even ushere on the podcast to to make

(48:16):
someone feel broken or less thanyou're more about even you talk
about this too about with yourstudents like you wanted to and
you say this all the time youwant to inspire so you've you've
taught for many years you'vewatched your students you've
related different differently tothem when it comes to the
creative process to shape thatethical stance that you show

(48:39):
even in what you just said nowand throughout the book I I
would love for you to just kindof talk about um what that was
like as a teacher seeing somekids getting broken down you
know these students gettingbroken down to then basically be
built up because I know that'sthat's a concept that happens in
the military you know bookthat's what boot camp's about

(48:59):
right to break to break this thethe the grunt down so they can
build them up to become oursoldiers and I love the fact
that you see that that is notthe way to help humanity wow
well there's a lot in thereagain and I'm not sure which
aspect to respond to but againpart of the disclaimers in the

(49:22):
introduction I'm just puttingout caveat caveats and
disclaimers and distinguishingmy intention I think from all
those like silly tropes that Imentioned before about you know
say why your approach issuperior to all the others out
there in this niche or thisspace they say now.

SPEAKER_00 (49:45):
So I think it was just I had to feel good about
writing the book and reallyqualify everything I'm
suggesting because I mean I getpreachy on here but I try not to
and in the book I think I'mmaking gentle suggestions and
connecting dots and offering itup and I think that we're all
here to do that.
Our unique perspectives you knowmy way of connecting dots is

(50:09):
going to be different thanyours.
But I think we are all beingcalled upon to share our unique
worldviews so that again mixingmetaphors as threads in the
tapestry we're all contributingand maybe that's where the
balance comes in right even Ihate to say it but the
divisiveness and the pendulumback swings and all these really
uncomfortable growing pains inthe end create some kind of

(50:32):
balance that best serveshumanity.
It's really hard to go there andit takes a lot of faith but
sometimes the pendulum swingsare for the better even when it
comes to our two party systemtakes a long time to get there.
But I guess my disclaimers werereally largely about how I've
just had a lifelong resistanceto the definitive right if you

(50:55):
say the sky is blue and then youapply the Socratic method you
can disprove that.
Well it's not blue at sunset andit's not blue during sunrise
from a given angle with thelight raking through the
atmosphere and refracting offblah blah blah like you any
definitive statement can bedisproven because of flux and
time and circumstance does thatmake sense and language is

(51:17):
limitations language is verylimited.
So I was putting that out therethat I'm not going to be the
first one to define art orbeauty because we all know it's
in the eye of the beholder or umreally I I mention artistic
integrity and literary value astraditions that I subscribe to

(51:39):
while acknowledging they'reromantic and they're limited.
So I guess the word isjudicious.
I felt the need to lay out therehere's how I approach teaching
as you know like oh I'm justhere to um be a conduit for
conversation and um kind ofmediate if that makes sense.
And as much as I would tell mystudents take everything I say

(52:02):
with a grain of salt you need tobe judicious about your
education and reconcileeverything you're exposed to in
art school you know withopposing thought forms.
That's on you.
And that's the nature ofeducation.
Everything is what you make itand so I do talk about being
judicious in your thinking butalso convergent thinking as
opposed to divergent.

(52:22):
So I think I put it in therejust so that people would
understand the intention of thebook.
And I guess I was letting myselfoff the hook a little bit.
But I think what you're alsohinting at is the anecdote I
talked about you know I got ascholarship for vocal
instruction from a prettyreputable vocal instructor here
in LA.
He taught Steve Perry fromJourney and you know a lot of

(52:46):
artists that we all know.
It's very lucky and had such agreat experience then later on
my own dime in my 20s I I youknow it was singing in the
shower.
I kind of wasn't using my voicebut I went back for vocal
instruction and I don't rememberthe guy's name but he had me
literally for 45 minutes doinggymnastics with my voice like
abusing it frankly and uh Ididn't know any better.

(53:08):
I didn't know how to do theexercises without taxing my
voice.
And then after all that he hadme sing the song I came prepared
to sing.
And I'd done it a million timesand it's like what voice is
coming out of me it sounds likea bullfrog that you know
ingested a pipe whistle it justwasn't my vocal cords were
flipping out and on the drivehome even in at the tender age

(53:31):
of 20 something I thought ohthat's all by design and he
wants you to feel broken and inneed of his services so I was
just kind of saying to thereader never ever am I trying to
through suggestion implantsomething that makes you feel
broken or less than if you don'tidentify with it you know that
idea of uh they call it uhmedical school syndrome yes yeah

(53:55):
it's a form of hypochondriawhere everything you study about
you get a mild version of so Ijust was putting that out there
like if anything in here doesn'tresonate just keep going and
there was plenty of things inart school like letters to a
young poet oh all trueinspiration comes from not just
solitude but I had an instructorsay periods of depression do you
think I wanted to hear that in19 like I'm doomed to a lifetime

(54:19):
of depression now I understandit.
It's like oh germination is whathe meant.
So I was just putting it outthere like in the reading of
this book if I suggest somethingthat you don't relate to just
keep going like I'm not here tomake anyone feel broken and in
need of my content.
I'm just contributing to theconversation.

SPEAKER_02 (54:40):
Yeah well and I love that part of the book because
here's here's something that Isee happen on the mental health
side um going to people feelingbroken.
I mean because obviously youknow that's what people think
like oh you're coming to therapybecause you feel broken.
And that I'm not gonna say thatthat isn't the case.
But I also have people who walkthrough my door who have because

(55:03):
they've been talking to a friendbecause they got on Chat GPT,
they Googled um they weretalking to somebody who's a
friend who's in mental healthbut they can't really diagnose
their friend but they're likegosh you know you have
tendencies that sound like ohyeah you might have some OCD
tendencies you know and then allof a sudden it's like they walk
through my door and they're likeI have OCD and I'm like well who

(55:24):
told you that you know so that'sgoing to the stories that were
told right because they'rehearing a narrative and then
they hear that part of thatnarrative and they latch to it
which Well we've we've alsosorry we talked about pop
psychology too right everyone'sthrowing around narcissist and
empath yeah like yeah like youcan just buy that title and um
yeah so I love that you that youthat you address that right away

(55:47):
at the introduction of the bookbecause um I think it's very
easy for us to as you said besusceptible to these narratives
that are just floating aroundaround us right and latch onto
them and go, oh my gosh, youknow or um I mean even like
going through my master'sprogram to become a to become a

(56:09):
counselor I mean I'm not gonnasay that they intentionally try
and tear us down but I mean Idefinitely I know I mentioned
many times on the podcast andjust to you in in personal
conversation like I mean there'snothing left like they have
stripped me bare like all I haveleft is my heart in my chest
like do I need to rip it out andthrow it on the ground for them
to devour next you know um so Ilove that you bring that up

(56:33):
because it's so easy for us toum let those outside influences
or what someone says um tear.

SPEAKER_00 (56:42):
Yeah well again in in the spirit of our book the
narratives we internalize rightand we did a whole episode on
dependency all these ideas thataging equals falling apart and
that you need to be on an entirecocktail of drugs to stay above
ground.
So that's you know the power ofyeah suggestibility and the

(57:03):
narratives we absorb like crabsin the boiling water.
But again I think the art schoolequivalent of some of this I I
fight back a little bit becauseum yeah all those empaths
running around that maybe uhdon't have a thick skin they

(57:24):
create a whole narrative aboutart school and I will say in my
teaching I mean I heard rumorsoh so and so will line up the
work from good to bad and youknow it's very vulnerable to put
your work on a crit rail afteryou just self-expressed right
and then be open to criticismwhether from the instructor or
the group it's very vulnerable.

(57:44):
And then Art Center developed areputation for oh kicking the
shit out of you week one and youkind of move past that.
And I am the one guy who's goingto say no no all it is is you
mature and you realize we're allhere to help one another become
the best artist you know we canall respectively become and
we're all on the same team.

(58:05):
It's called growing up so I kindof fight some of those myths a
little bit.
What I will say is yes that'sthe nature of education in
general but art school mighthave its own version of it where
you become stifled by the do'sthe don'ts the rights the wrongs
simply put the technique and thecraft and you will forget why
you fucking draw or paint in thefirst place of course right so

(58:28):
you could say an art uh anauthor might forget why he's
telling stories in the firstplace when they get exposed to
too much academia.
But then I just gently suggesthave faith the dust will settle
all the puzzle pieces lock intoplace you'll remember why you do
what you do and then all artistsunderstand this the technique
becomes second nature and youjust pull it in as needed but

(58:52):
you're really followinginspiration and that can be a
concept or a narrative butinspiration that is the arc that
all artists again romanticnotions but if you take the
journey seriously the uh cheminartistique to bring the French
back the lifelong artisticjourney at large and I don't
even subscribe to that you cando whatever you want with your
art but elitist circles will sayoh no you become a mentor you

(59:14):
know like under the wing ofMichelangelo and you go through
your plain air paint you knowwhether it's a la prima or old
master's techniques it's a longhaul I don't buy any of that you
can take whatever journey youwant but if people do it for a
sustained period of time rightwhether it's little scales on

(59:35):
your violin or plain airpainting and um still life
painting and figure painting youare yeah I the way I put it in
the book is using craft to getgood at life I'm not a gymnast
but I'm in awe right of Olympiangymnasts for the discipline.
So I just think it's such anopportunity to get good at life

(59:57):
it's it's very metaphorical.

SPEAKER_02 (59:58):
Am I all over the place here or does some of that
make no no that totally madesense and I I want to I'm gonna
spin it on its head for asecond.
So you're like oh no don't dothat to me.
No but so here's here's here's aa flip to that school of thought
you know not not saying that weneed to break people down I

(01:00:19):
wonder sometimes though ifthere's this sense and I and I
think you touched on it which iswhy I was going here um is that
we feel like we're being torndown because there's things that
we have to admit that we didn'tknow right and sometimes our own

(01:00:41):
personal arrogance and yeah ego.
Exactly Exactly, it gets gets inour way to where sometimes when
we feel like we're being torndown or broken, it's actually
making a stop.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:52):
That that was my whole point, actually, because
again, 20 years of teaching, youand you know, I taught at many
institutions with differentcultures, but Art Center was the
consistent thread, and I knowthat culture better than any of
the others because I went therefor Saturday high as a kid, and
then three years during my owndegree program, and then 20

(01:01:13):
years of teaching there.
I've had a relationship withthat school with yeah, granted
its own reputation and its ownpractices for 30 something
years.
And you would often hear, Irecognize it a mile away.
Your resistance, your ego, yourpride builds a narrative, and
then gossip feeds into that,right, and supports that

(01:01:33):
narrative.
For example, when I went to thatschool, the tale wasn't wagging
the dog.
You felt lucky to be accepted.
It was one of the top arts, youknow, art schools in the
country.
And you just took what they gaveyou, you didn't question it.
You were terrified to walkacross in a good and bad way,
terrified to walk and talk toMargaret Broccotto across the
bridge to ask for a schedulechange.

(01:01:54):
Because it was well thought outand well designed by a panel,
the whole curriculum.
And now they think they'rebuying a degree, right?
And I won't say which countryall the money's coming from, but
they think they're buying adegree.
So the tail's wagging the dog,and the parents come to campus.
My parents never once visitedcampus, and the student just

(01:02:15):
gets what they want.
My point is, even if I heardgossip, oh my god, that
instructor, like I said, thatinstructor takes work and throws
it on the floor and stomps onit, and he strangled an owl.
Like I've heard it all.
And it never turned out to betrue.
There's old school instructorslike Hogarth and Carmian, and
you've you hear horror stories.
I never want to saw anybodystrangle an owl.

(01:02:37):
So, you know, it's because Idon't have that kind of
personality that, like you'resaying, refuses to take
responsibility for myshortcomings and therefore
demonize the thing that is anopportunity to open my mind,
actually.
So I don't know if that makessense, but I would regularly
hear students try to pit onestructure against another.

(01:02:58):
And they all day, every day,well, so-and-so said, and you
slow down and say, and youprovide some context.
Well, actually, most of usinstructors agree because design
is designed.
So maybe you heard somethingthat wasn't said, and inevitably
that was always the case.
So that's why I don't lovegossip.

(01:03:19):
And uh it never occurred to meto tweak my schedule based on
the gossip of students, becausestudents actually operate on the
pleasure principle.
It sometimes takes tough love tosay you may not like this class,
it may be a tough instructor,but you're gonna thank them in
the end.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:35):
Yeah, because there's growth, there's growth
in that discomfort and familiar.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:39):
So I'm agreeing with you.
I saw it in so many forms, likeyou know, uh myths about
instructors because we operateon the pleasure principle or
creating repeating narratives,and it's called gossip.
It's very destructive.
There's a reason the Bibleidentifies gossip as a sin.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:57):
Yeah, a lot.
I want to say what I hear what Ikeep hearing echoing for me is
that the I'm not gonna just saythe artist journey, I'm gonna
say just the journey when itcomes to us um going through
life and interacting with thesethese stories, these narratives
that are floating around us.
Um, that that journey journey isreally us practicing how to be

(01:04:17):
human.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:19):
Well, I think I think you're saying literature,
art hold on, story teaches ushow to live in the world.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:29):
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:31):
One of the functions.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:33):
One of one of the functions.
And and so so it's not that, youknow, and then of course putting
it into a more artistic realm isthat craft isn't about output,
it's about the attunement.
So it's paying attention,learning how to stay awake
without becoming hardened orcynical.
So I would love for you, becauseI know you you do walk very much

(01:04:53):
where you nope, I'm not gonnasubscribe to that.
Oh, yeah, that that rose that'sresonating with me.
I'm feeling attuned to that.
Um, so when you look back acrossyour animation, teaching,
writing, even your filmmakingdays, where do you feel that
story wasn't just something youwere making, but it became
something that was activelystarting to shape you?

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:17):
I love the wording of that question.
Um well, I think just likeeverybody else, because again,
I've I actually polled studentsfor a documentary I was going to
make, and I've done researchover the years, and so a lot of
my conclusions come from that,just being immersed in the
milieu and yeah, actively doingI gave questionnaires to my

(01:05:37):
students.
And one time I literally wentdown to the brewery and
different artist complexes andlofts and just interviewed
everything from professionalfine artists to gallery painters
to again my own students, and umI was just like everybody else
in that I was unexamined for me.
I did get that typewriter atnine and my first oil painting

(01:06:00):
class at seven, and I justenjoyed it.
And I never identified as astoryteller, I just liked doing
it, and uh yeah, kind of likeeverybody else.
And then maybe even withfilmmaking, I just wanted to be
part, you know, grew up onSteven Spielberg, and who
wouldn't want to do that?
Like, I just wanted to be partof the tradition that I

(01:06:22):
responded to.
All those Lord of the Ringsbooks that you know, I would
escape into that world regularlyin junior high after taking a
bong hit.
I um just wanted to do that,right?
I think that's a lot of people,and it's unexamined.
If you believe the polls that Itook with my students, at some
point, craft aside, you dorealize there's a drive and

(01:06:45):
there's a reason you want totell stories.
And then that even later mightget attached because of your
brush with death or your come toJesus moment with a really
strong sense of purpose or afire.
So I I do identify thesemilestones if you are in it for
the long haul in the artisticjourney.
But for me, I think I was justlike everybody else.

(01:07:06):
It was unexamined, and I thinkat some point I understood the
power of story.
I didn't think, oh, I'm wieldingthis sword, but I just was in
love with cinema in the early90s, you know, throughout
college and maybe even afterstarting at Disney.
I just took in a lot of umindependent films, experimental
films, foreign films, and notthe mainstream stuff.

(01:07:29):
I would go to the Lemleysregularly, and yeah, it did
occur to me like, holy crap, thepower of storytelling.
I would take, you know, IlPostino, like Water for
Chocolate, um, Life isBeautiful, all these really
beautiful independent films withsomething to say, and I would be
in awe of them.
Then I would compare them tolike, oh, that Bruce Willis

(01:07:50):
film, The Last Boy Scout.
That didn't move me in the sameway quite, you know.
And it did occur to me at onepoint, like, God, the you can
watch him mow down 30 people inan airport and you're still
rooting for him for good or bad,because he's the protagonist and
you're invested in the want andthe need and the goal.
So I just think I startedlearning more and seeing being

(01:08:12):
exposed to more, and I realizedthe power of the medium, and
that was cinema.
You know, if you can root forsomebody to kill more people,
that's a scary implication interms of the power of
propaganda.
So sorry for the long answer,but I think it was a lifelong
journey of like, oh, now Iunderstand the power, and I want
to do that.
So even though I was proud ofthe films I was putting out at

(01:08:33):
Disney, I was driven to become alive-action filmmaker and
literally tell my stories andhopefully move people or touch
them in the same ways thesefilms affected me.
Those are some milestone, I'msure there's many more.

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:46):
Yeah, no, that makes sense.
And I was gonna say, as you'reyou're saying that, I was like,
gosh, you go back to like whenyou were a kid, like laying
there, you know, and you talkedabout um, and forgive me, I'm
not gonna remember his name, butyou're it was the gentleman who
was sculpting dragons, Ibelieve.

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:01):
Claude, yes, Claude.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:03):
And I just I was thinking of that image, and just
even like where you're when thewhere you talk of when you're
with your grandmother and you'relooking you know out into this
precipice, and you're just like,what does this mean?
Like it seems like you've alwayshad a very curious mind.

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:20):
Yeah, I mean, again, I think later I I'm a
storyteller, so I connect dots,and as you said, the meaning
making isn't that what makes ushuman?
We can connect dots and thenmake meaning out of it.
So I think in writing the book,I connected those dots.
Like, okay, there's a reason Iidentified with Winnie the Pooh,

(01:09:40):
right?
When people would ask me as akid, what do you want to be when
you grow up?
I would say Winnie the Pooh,like no guile at all, until they
started asking questions.
Like, how do you plan toaccomplish that?

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:51):
I I'm curious, I'm curious why Winnie the Pooh.

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:54):
Well, that's what I'm saying.
I think later I realized when Idiscovered the Tao of Pooh that
he embodied a lot of the Zenphilosophy that I aspired to.
And, you know, the reason Imentioned Claude and the dragons
and Puff the Magic Dragon on theradio and all the hippies at the
creative art center is becausethat was a milieu that lent
itself to, you know, and Icredit my mom for that, to um, I

(01:10:18):
don't know, maybe rejectingsocialization and um
understanding that there's more.
So um it was Winnie the Poohbecause he was Zen.
And there was a oh, the reason Imentioned my mom is she had a
book lying around the housecalled The Zen of Seeing.
And so all these things justcame together.
And the sea monkeys, that's justa fun parable because I think I

(01:10:43):
learned later I was invested inyeah, getting people woke long
before it was the popular thingto do, and just look beyond the
end of your nose.
And um, the sea monkeys were thesymbol of that.
Like actually, they could gofrom a crystalline state to
being uh charged and uh youknow, that spark of life that
makes them sentient.
And uh, so I just kind ofjuxtaposed all those little

(01:11:06):
milestones, if that makes sense,to say without even knowing it,
I from day one was invested inseeing through the matrix and
then sharing that with people.
And I think we're all calledupon to do that.
Like I said earlier, what arethe dots that you subjectively
connect that nobody else in thistapestry would?
It's still worth contributingback.
So um, the final anecdote thatyou didn't talk about was oh,

(01:11:29):
the moment with my grandmotheron the cliff.
And that one says it all.
I was a weird kid.
I did it, I remember to thisday.
I would picture balloons justfloating in the blue sky, and it
was very haunting, actually.
And then I I think we all havethis.
Maybe I had liver problems as akid, I don't know, but I would
see floaters, they call them.

(01:11:50):
Do you ever see floaters?
Do you know what those are?

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:51):
I do, I have floaters, yes.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:53):
Yeah, it's but when you're a kid and you're lying in
the grass looking at a blanksky, they're trippy.
So I thought I was seeingmolecules like drifting down and
then settling into the grass.
I I literally thought I was, Idon't know what I thought, but
um I was a weird kid, is thepoint.
And um, I have to this day avery vivid image.

(01:12:15):
I was picture, you know, theblue sky and the balloons, and I
think I was also I'd heard thatwe live forever, you know, in
the Bible.
It they tell us that.
And I was like, that soundsboring.
I just didn't know what I wasgoing to do at the time, and it
was very haunted by that too.
So I don't know, I got up theguts and I just was standing on
the edge of a cliff in the OwensRiver Valley with my

(01:12:36):
grandmother.
I we were literally looking outat the horizon, it's all
symbolism.
And I said, For some reason,grandma, what would there be if
we weren't here?
And as I say in the book, I haveno idea what that even means,
but I must have grasped that,you know, we're all experiencing
the sensual world as pureconsciousness, but it may or may

(01:12:57):
not actually exist.
It's just kind of a consensus.
I don't know what I thought, butthat to me later said, You
weren't just a weird kid, youwere tapping into the
metaphysical and asking reallyphilosophical questions at the
age of six.
And my grandmother's answer was,and she squeezed my hand and she
said, Honey, just try not tothink about it.
So I tell that story because itis the story of my life, and

(01:13:20):
that's later why I resonatedwith Horton Here's a Who.
Do you know that story well?

SPEAKER_02 (01:13:25):
I do.
I love Horton Here's a Who.

SPEAKER_00 (01:13:27):
That is the artist's life.
I mean, if we are going todefine what it is to be an
artist or define it in that waythat we see things others others
don't, yeah.
I so related to that.
And so in the writing of thebook, I started connecting all
these dots, like, my essence hasevolved in some ways, but it's
my core essence or my soul isthe same soul.

(01:13:50):
Do you have like okay, I loveminor chords, I don't love major
chords.
That's never changed.
I might be exposed to a certaintype of music, but I still like
discord over harmony, if thatmakes sense.
And so I think your aesthetictaste is to say something about
your soul and your preferences,and that sometimes remains
consistent.

SPEAKER_02 (01:14:10):
Do you have things you loved as a kid that you
still love or songs or yeah, andit's interesting that you
mentioned that because I startedthinking about them quite so I
know um so I like harmonybecause my mom sang and she
actually won trophies for voice,and she was and she harmonized
really well.
So I find that comfortingbecause it reminds me of her.

SPEAKER_00 (01:14:33):
But um I meant major chords, I should have said major
chords.

SPEAKER_02 (01:14:38):
But just just because I I don't speak music
theory very well, um, which isfunny because I played the flute
and the piano.
You'd think I'd be better withmusic, but yeah, I was yeah,
anyways.
But um, but it's interestingbecause just thinking about
music and just you know usingthat, like what resonates with
you.
So uh the the group air supply,I really like them.

(01:15:01):
And it's interesting because Inever realized this as a kid,
um, because my mom listened tothem, which is how of course I
listened to them.
But when I got into my 20s, Iremember I was going, it was
when karaoke was just startingto become this thing, right?
And I played an air supply song,and I remember the karaoke disc
jockey turning me.
He's like, Really, you know,one, because I'm a girl and I'm

(01:15:22):
gonna sing air supply, but he'slike, well, he's like, I don't
get this request very oftenbecause they don't sing in
harmony, they're the opposite.
The music, yeah, the music isthe melody, but they sing the
opposite, which I can't rememberwhat it's not called right off
the top of my head.
So, anyways, which I thought wasreally interesting, um, because

(01:15:43):
I really have always liked theirmusic and how it sounds and
resonates for me.
And I've always remembered thatfrom curious, and I'd have to go
look to remember exactly whatthat means.
But yeah, so they don't theydon't sing the melody part,
they're they're on the oppositeside of the melody, the music's
the melody, and then they singthe opposite, whatever that is.
Yeah, it's kind of interesting.
I don't know.

(01:16:03):
You can go look it up andcorrect me if I was wrong.
I'm just telling you what youtold me, and it stuck in my
head.

SPEAKER_00 (01:16:09):
Well, I think anyway, yeah.
Yeah, anyway, but it sayssomething about I don't I just
think our aesthetics, our senseof aesthetics is inborn and it
it just says something aboutyour whole worldview, you know.

SPEAKER_02 (01:16:20):
Yeah, it it does.
And you know, and and and I loveyou know how you talk about
Horton Heroes Le Who and how ityou know relates to um, you
know, being an artist and stuff,because I think that's very
true, even like in my clinicalwork, um, where I have to walk
into a room and look at thingsnot through my lens.

(01:16:42):
I have to look through itthrough my client's lens, right?
And of course, our perception isour reality.
And at the same time as I'mtracking what that perception
reality is for the personsitting across from me, I have
my own and I have to sit thereand I I always use a
kaleidoscope analogy that, youknow, we can all be handed the

(01:17:03):
kaleidoscope and we all have thesame primary color pieces in
that kaleidoscope.
But how we turn the lens and howthose pieces fall is how we're
gonna perceive the world aroundus.
And so to me, I feel like wealways have to be shifting that
kaleidoscope to make sure we'regetting as much of the full
picture as we can get at alltimes.
And to me, that's the curiosity.
That's always wanting tounderstand and know why and not

(01:17:25):
just always be happy with thefirst answer we're given.
And I feel like this is whatthis book inspires, just from
listening to the intro ofLanguage of the Soul is what
what aren't you thinking about?
What other curious questionsshould should you be asking?
And and when do you stop askingthe questions?

(01:17:48):
And to me, the answer is never.

SPEAKER_00 (01:17:50):
Right.
Right.
Well, let me quickly say I'veknown you for a while now, going
on 12 years, maybe.

SPEAKER_02 (01:17:56):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:17:57):
Over 12 years.
Anyway, and we've been doing thepodcast for three.
So I think you're very good atthat.
I call it being judicious,right?
Being able to step in, see allperspectives.
That's what makes you a greattherapist.
And um, but that's noteverybody, right?
I think that um I use the wordsdivergent and convergent, and

(01:18:17):
um, I don't know, it's pride andego, but I think a lot of people
are tempted to just equate theirsubjective reality with the
elusive objective truth, right?
The absolute truth, which may ormay not exist.
I think a lot of people movethrough life.
I'm trying to put this in apositive way, move through life

(01:18:39):
without, and well, here I'll putit on somebody else.
Um Eckhart Toll would say, weidentify with the narrator in
our head.
Some people are so identifiedwith mind and ego that they
don't even realize thatnarrator, do you know what I
mean, might be a little off baseor like have internalized all

(01:19:00):
these narratives we're talkingabout externally, vicariously.
And so he just calls itidentification with mind.
And when you meditate and youstop, right, all those voices,
you stop the um what's itcalled, the reverie, and you
settle into you know alpha wavemode or gamma wave mode, and you

(01:19:20):
stop the mental chatter, youstop identifying with all these
silly things you'veinternalized.
I don't know if that's makingsense, but maybe artists have a
little intellectual curiositythat saves them from that
identification, maybe, or maybeit's something like I said
earlier, you just nurture.
Not everybody can afford to dosomething as impractical as art,

(01:19:40):
right?
There's a whole long traditionof, you know, and I think it's
silly, but uh being practicaland it's a luxury, and that's
why, you know, our countryarguably doesn't support the
arts or fund the arts.
That's not the case in you know,many a developed country.
But maybe we need to acknowledgeit all has value to the
collective.

(01:20:00):
I'm kind of all over the placehere, but I do think I do think
you're good at shifting, youknow, turning the kaleidoscope
and looking at all angles ofsomething, and maybe that's what
makes for empathy andcompassion, and maybe that's
what we need more of right now,with everybody digging in there,
like divisive, everything'sdivisive, right?
Not just our country, it'sglobal.
And in a good way, a lot ofthings are coming to a head, and

(01:20:22):
we're ushering out a lot ofparadigms that I mean, if we
survive, we're ushering out alot of paradigms.
But I do see everybody diggingtheir heels in and like
dinosaurs trying to try toprotect, okay.
I'll just say it patriarchy, forexample, right?
And so what we need to do is uhlearn to use convergent

(01:20:44):
thinking.
And see the value of all themindsets and cooperate instead
of digging our heels in.
Does that make a little bit ofsense?
Like that's what's needed rightnow.

SPEAKER_02 (01:20:56):
It does.
And it goes back to when I wasfirst talking about, you know,
um, when I was having thatconversation, you know, with my
with my partner.
Um, we'll just say Justin.
He just loves when I used hisname.
Um, but when Justin and I weretalking, you know, and and
talking about the arts and umand people who are in the arts
and why they're important, eventhough it feels like there's I'm

(01:21:18):
not saying it that they're likethe minority of the population,
but it just feels that waybecause, like you just said, we
don't focus and put money andtime really behind it.

SPEAKER_00 (01:21:29):
Like, it's not a cultural value, right?
Like the arts used to be part ofa well-rounded education.
My grandmother didn't identifyas a painter, but her oil
paintings of the Joshua trees inthe Mojave are literally better
than anything I've ever seen.
And she didn't even identify asa painter, it was just part of a
well-rounded education.

SPEAKER_02 (01:21:48):
Well, and I think what it goes to, and so it came
up to my so I know you know thisword, but just so if our
listeners don't, I'll quicklydefine it for you.
So differentiate differentiationof self.
And that means the capacity tostay emotionally connected to
others without losing your ownthinking.
And I feel like we don't havewell-differentiated people that

(01:22:09):
are noticing those strongfeelings without being hijacked
by the narratives that are notself-serving or that that or are
self-serving, I mean, you know,that aren't that aren't
contributing, but they'rethey're self-serving instead.
And I think it's that emotionalintelligence and those
conversations that we're losingbecause of that.
And and that's where you getlike where there's poor

(01:22:31):
differentiation where people aredigging in their heels and
they're like, no, this is myemotional protection.

SPEAKER_00 (01:22:38):
Well, how do we get back to that?
I'm gonna let you answer andsay, how do we get back to that?
But I did hear something theother day that especially about
the far right and MAGA and youknow, some of the more shadier
conspiracy theories.
Um, QAnon, I guess.
And um that they so identifywith the narrative that, yeah,

(01:23:02):
they don't differentiatethemselves from it, and
therefore, anything that's athreat to the administration or
the doctrine is a threat to thempersonally.
It's crazy.
You know what I mean?
That's why you buy the platformhook, line, and sinker instead
of realizing okay, there's somenuance here, there's platform
issues, you don't have to buythe entire platform hook, line,

(01:23:23):
and sinker.

SPEAKER_02 (01:23:25):
No, and that's true.
And and and you so you asked,like, you know, how do we get
back to that?
And to me, I think it's going tothat, you know, holding
ourselves responsible for ourown inner world while remaining
meaningful and connected toothers.
So understand we don't all haveto agree, because I think that
sometimes I mean I'm not sayingthat that's everything, but

(01:23:45):
there is that there is that onecaveat, right?
To the uh decipher decisivenessof like, well, we all need a
groupthink.
Well, no, not everybody wants togroupthink, right?
And that's great.
If if you find like-mindedindividuals, I mean, we want to
find like-minded individualsbecause that's a good thing, but
it's also good to have peoplewho think different from us
because it puts us in thatuncomfortable, the unfamiliar,

(01:24:11):
which is where it stops us andgoes, okay, where do I need to
change, or does something elseneed to change for growth to
happen?
And if we don't, if we're all inthe same bubble, we stagnate.

SPEAKER_00 (01:24:27):
Yeah.
Here's here's what where my mindgoes.
Um, we're always evolving,right?
A lot of tribal instincts thatmay have served us may no longer
be serving us.
And so, groupthink orconformity, call it what you
want, was obviously valuable tous for a long, long time.
We may be evolving out of that,where it's no longer, you know,

(01:24:50):
like they say humans are theonly ones that actively destroy
their own habitat.
That that doesn't help toanything.
That doesn't contribute to theuh proliferation of the species.
And so I just think if you lookat it in a very evolutionary
theory level, yes, our thoughtforms matter, and there are
growing pains when they evolve,and you have people again that

(01:25:12):
dig their heels in and maybekeep things from progressing too
fast.
The trick is saying amen to allof it, right?
And so, on a maybe subjectivepersonal level, I hear, well,
we're just talking about egoversus, you know, quieting that
ego and stepping into our coreessence, which is always love,

(01:25:32):
you know.
But then on the macro scale, Ithink a lot of it is tribal and
it may have served us in thepast, but it's obsolete, and
that would include groupthinkbecause we're more global now
than ever, and we got to learnto get along with the other kids
on the playground.

SPEAKER_02 (01:25:47):
Yeah, exactly.
And we and if you think aboutit, each one of us individually
contribute to the system in ourfamilies, into our
neighborhoods, into um thecities and counties we live in,
the states, because we're herein the United States, you know,
provinces, countries, um, andthen eventually we get to the

(01:26:10):
global scale.
And so each piece is a cog inthe will, right?
We all have a purpose.
Um, and that can be to maybe,like you said, slow the system
down a little bit so it canrecalibrate.
Maybe sometimes we're hinderingit, and so we need to get on
board, and that's that's wherethat introspection comes in.

SPEAKER_00 (01:26:30):
So, anyways, no, I agree.
I gotta, I gotta respond.
I'm sorry, because um I do thinkyou have people that work with
the system, God love them.
I'm one of them, by the way.
I'm a good boy, I am notmilitant, even the LGBTQ issues.
I've never been militant, andsome people see me as
complacent, but I see more valuein embracing my gifts, not

(01:26:54):
trying to be something that I'mnot, which is political.
Um, but I say amen to all of it.
Thank God for people with a chipon their shoulder, right?
Thank God for people thatprotest, and it comes to the you
know, MLK versus uh Malcolm Xkind of mentality.
But I do say amen to all of it,and everything works toward not

(01:27:16):
the greater good, that's alittle too Pollyanna, but uh
works toward, you know, again, Ithink it was MLK that said the
arc toward justice is long, butit always bends, sorry, the arc
of history is long, but italways bends towards justice.
So somewhere in the book, maybelater, I say exactly that how
the ripple effect is alive andwell.
And during the pandemic, Ifantasized that the timeout was

(01:27:40):
meant for people to slow the Fdown and introspect, if that can
be a verb, you know, look insideand take stock.
And I feel like sadly, somepeople took the opportunity and
some did not.
But when I say be the change youwish to see in the world, I
think I'm quoting Gandhi, andhow can you argue with that?
I've been told that's veryPollyanna, and my response to

(01:28:02):
that is and it's also the onlyway, the only way, right?
You wouldn't have sorry, a Trumpif I mean he represents the
worst in all of us, and we letit get to this point.
That's just my opinion.
You don't have to agree, but Ithink it's like a a boil that
just comes, right?

(01:28:24):
It's a cancer, it's a rogue.
And so I meant to say a momentago, I think we do need our free
thinkers, we need our rogues, weneed our subversive individuals
that absolutely um you know arethe uh what do you call it, the
backlash against certain trendsthat no longer serve us.
Thank God, amen to all of it.
Yeah, and it's also reallyuncomfortable during the the

(01:28:47):
moments like now where you knowcrisis that's a big premise of
the book too.
Crisis signals opportunity.
I'm sorry, crisis signals changeand um adversity is the only way
we grow, right?

SPEAKER_02 (01:28:58):
So yeah.
So I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'mgonna I'm gonna end with this
thought, not in the show,because I do have a wrapping
thing, but I'm gonna end withthis thought, then I'll let you
share your thought, and then Iwill stir us to our close.
Um so this is from VictorFrankel.
I know you guys have all heardme mention Victor Frankel
before.
Uh, it's a very famous quote,but what he said in his um Man

(01:29:22):
Search and Meaning book was whenwe are no longer able to change
a situation, we are challengedto change ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 (01:29:31):
That's how it works.
I love it.
Yep, and it's globally too,right?
Yeah, this is an opportunity,right?
It's uh it's reallyuncomfortable, but it's an
opportunity.
Yep.
From the ashes, we can rebuild.

SPEAKER_02 (01:29:47):
Yes.
Okay, so what what are somefinal thoughts on the getting
the season going and this theintro to your book and the fact
that we're focusing on it?

SPEAKER_00 (01:29:57):
Well, I think you have some beautiful closing
words, if I remember correctly.
So I don't really need to chimein.
I don't know if we got to theguts of the introduction as much
as you would have liked.
Uh, do you feel like we'veexploited uh every micro segment
of the introduction?

SPEAKER_02 (01:30:14):
I don't think we got into every little crevice, but I
think we we did a good job ofwhich is what the intro is
about, right?
It's really the I hate call itthe overview of all the chapters
we're gonna get into, but youknow, initially getting into
what where we're building fromand why we're building from what

(01:30:37):
we're building from.

SPEAKER_00 (01:30:37):
Yeah, I mean, I like everything we've uh talked about
here, and I I hope it has valueto listeners.
But yeah, maybe I would just saygo listen to the introduction in
its entirety, and then you'll bebetter prepared to listen to
chapter one if you choose to, orto listen to our roundtable
discussions of chapter one.
But yeah, I don't really havemuch to say other than it it's a
sense the uh introduction isjust here's where I'm coming

(01:31:00):
from.
You know, here's where myperspective, I'm not gonna say
authority or expertise at all,but I just tell you who I am and
hopefully a remotelyentertaining way, and then say,
and that's what's informing myperspective.
I then, as a kind of samplerplatter, lay out some premises
and support them to a degreewith the promise that future
chapters will uh, you know, makethe case.

(01:31:23):
And I think by the end,collectively, I just make the
case that, you know, story is apowerful force and it is how we
transform.
It's probably the most powerfulway by which society evolves.
So let's just be conscious of itand have an awareness of its
power and maybe take someresponsibility.
By the end of the book, I makethat case.
Um, the intro is just like,here's who I am, here are some

(01:31:45):
things we're gonna talk about,and hopefully they land a little
bit or resonate a little bit,and they we absolutely go into
detail later.
And I think that's important totalk about the specific brain
chemicals that come up and whystory is so powerful.
Not so we can use it inadvertising, right, or political
campaigning, but maybe we wantto contribute back to our

(01:32:06):
evolution and transformindividuals so that through the
ripple effect, society canevolve.
Just that.
Uh yeah, that that's that that'skind of it.

SPEAKER_02 (01:32:16):
That sounds good.
Okay, so far, listeners, just soyou know, as we move through the
conversations within the book,um, and really um through the
whole season, I want you aslisteners to keep this idea in
mind.
Every guest we talk to embodiesa different relationship with
story, some consciously, someunconsciously, some through art,
some through lived experiences.

(01:32:37):
This introduction gives all ofus a lens to start from.
The rest of the season um andthe shows that we have before
us, many in um the many waysthat the lens refracts through
the real human lives.
So just keep turning thatkaleidoscope.
And that's what season three isall about slowing down, paying
attention, and remembering whystory has always mattered in the

(01:33:00):
first place.

SPEAKER_00 (01:33:01):
Beautiful.
Love it, beautiful.
Thank you so much.
Yeah, this was fun for me.
I hope you had fun.
I did, it was great, and yeah,time tune in uh to our next one,
which I think is going to be thereading of chapter one, right?
And then after that will be theround table discussion.
So, yeah, to our listeners,remember life is a story, and we

(01:33:23):
can get our hands in the clayindividually and collectively.
We can tell a new story.
See you next time.

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