The FLOW State with Artist Brian Thompson

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:45):
Hi, guys, and welcome to Language of the Soul
Podcast.
We're very excited about thisweek's guest for a variety of
reasons.
I think, Virginia, you'd agree,uh just kind of interfacing with
like-minded people can beinspiring, you know, especially
in this climate with so muchdivisiveness.
Well, I'll speak for myself.

(01:06):
For me, it's just a reminderthat there are really cool
people left in the world andpeople that are contributing not
to the noise, but hopefully tosomething empowering for you
know society.
Is that too is that toograndiose?

SPEAKER_00 (01:21):
No, I was actually thinking um, you know, to
something greater than our ownselves.

SPEAKER_01 (01:27):
Yeah, exactly.
The the collect remember thecollective?
Like I feel like, yeah, there'sa lot of digging in of heels
right now, and we tend to forgetthat we're all entangled, you
know, not to get toometaphysical straight out the
gate.
But yeah, it's gonna be the wayout of this is recognizing our
interconnectivity, just myopinion.

(01:48):
But yeah, speaking to artists,uh, it seems to be inspiring for
me.
Artists and storytellers, youknow, that's the whole premise
of our podcast is storytellingis how we transform, way more so
than persuasion or propaganda,right?
You kind of change paradigms orchange minds by touching hearts.

SPEAKER_00 (02:07):
Agreed.

SPEAKER_01 (02:08):
Good.
Then we'll continue.
No, but truly, and even justcatching up with old friends,
you know, Greg Spolanka, it hadbeen a while, but just it really
reminds me there's some assholesin the world, you know.
And if you get on social media,you're reminded of that real
quick.
And then you're reminded, wow,there are people that are
actually putting out, you know,something worthwhile into the

(02:29):
universe.
So I think the world of thisguest, and I guess I'll let the
cat out of the bag, he's aformer student who has been a
colleague for many, you know,much longer than he was a
student.
I'm gonna ask him straight outthe gate what effing year he
graduated, because I know it waspretty early on in my teaching.
So anyway, we've been colleaguesnow for I think 25 plus years,

(02:50):
but we'll we'll check facts onthat.
Anyway, but I think the world ofhim and his work.
I just really love his work, butmore than that, I love his mind
and how it works.
So I think he's no pressure, butI think he's gonna have a lot to
say about the creative process,creative expression, and
storytelling.
So he came to the right place atour invitation.

(03:11):
Okay, Brian Thompson is anillustrator and art and an art
director with over 20 years ofexperience in video games,
visual development, and bookillustration.
His work has appeared inSpectrum, Wired magazine, and
the World of Warcraft tradingcard game, and he has created
over 15 young adult book coversfor Harper Collins, Penguin

(03:31):
Random House, and SimonSchuster.
A graduate of Art Center Collegeof Design, Brian is currently
art director at Night StreetGames, developing an original
title.
He previously served as artdirector at Amazon Games Studio
and spent 14 years at Big FishGames, where he co-created the
acclaimed Drawn Trilogy andFetch.

(03:52):
Now based in Europe with hiswife and two children, Brian
explores themes of creativityand the subconscious in his
personal work, spanning pen andink drawings, children's books,
and writing.
He is passionate about teachingand the creative process.
Welcome, Brian Thompson.
Thank you so much for having me.
Thanks for being here.

SPEAKER_00 (04:13):
Yeah, we're excited to have you.

SPEAKER_01 (04:15):
Yeah, in case you didn't get that, we're we're
excited to pick your brain.
So thanks for making it happen.
Uh being eight hours ahead, areyou or nine hours?
Yeah.
Eight hours, yeah.
Yeah, thank you so much formaking this happen.
I guess uh straight up, sorry,go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 (04:31):
Oh, just um it's been something that you know
we've wanted to do for a while,and I and I remember you asking
me, and then life kind of got inthe way, and and um yeah, time
flies.
And so I'm happy to be doing itnow.

SPEAKER_01 (04:45):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, that's uh I've beenwanting you on for a while,
probably since day one, in fact.
So um, yeah, it's gotta bethings have to line up, and when
it's meant to be, things tend tohappen.
So I'm excited and um nopressure, but straight out the
gate, I want to ask a rotequestion we've been asking in
the new season, and then it'skind of Virginia, it's kind of
evolved, right?

(05:06):
There's a new version of it.
So you're the lucky one whoyou're gonna get two rote
questions.
And the first one is, and then Iwant to follow up on some stuff
in your bio.
Did I get anything wrong, by theway?
Is there anything in the bio youwould want to correct?

SPEAKER_03 (05:19):
No, but I graduated in 2000, so you were right.
Oh wow, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 (05:23):
Wow, that was my guess was 2001, 2002, something
like that.
That makes perfect sense, andthen it's always amazing to me
when I go on Insta or Facebook,and you know, there is nepotism
at Art Center, and there's alsoa huge alumni um association.
But you sometimes I look and I'mlike, wait, was Brian in school

(05:44):
with that person?
Like it doesn't line up, but Ithink we all know each other
whether we actually went toschool with somebody or not.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, yeah, totally.
It's a small world with the artcenter world for sure.
Yeah, and but sometimes when Ilook at the mutual friends, I
go, wait, they were not in thesame class.
I don't in my mind, they're likedecades apart.
But yeah, I mean, when you teachfor over 20 years, it's a mind F

(06:08):
because you know, Gary Meyer,because I was in his first
class, he started teaching quitelate in life, but he always
remembered me because I was inhis first class, and so that's
true too.
You have a really distinctmemory of your first students,
but then over time you justcan't possibly remember every
face and every name, you know.
Yeah, of course.
Anyway, such fond memories ofthat moment because the

(06:31):
entertainment track was rathernew, and so anyway, we'll get
into all that, but to start outreal general, maybe you could
humor us and uh no pressure, butmaybe you could share your
thoughts on what istraditionally the role of
storytelling in culture and hasit evolved over time.

SPEAKER_03 (06:51):
Yeah, I was thinking about this.
And um, and there's this ideaof, you know, we tell stories
probably um, you know, thousandsof years, we tell stories to
communicate um events, right?
There's like there's a almostlike a nonfiction kind of
journalistic element of like,you know, this happened and this

(07:13):
happened.
And I think we we communicateevents and share that and pass
those, you know, throughout yourculture, throughout your
community.
And then you also have this kindof like spiritual level where
you're trying to make sense ofof the world, you know, whether
it's the natural world or thespiritual world or um emotions

(07:35):
that you might be dealing with.
And I think over time we'vealways associated these kinds of
things with um stories, a way tocommunicate difficult concepts
um and maybe abstract conceptsto people of different ages.
And and I really love that ideathat there's this kind of

(07:56):
combination in the human mind ofwanting to wanting to know what
happened, like tell me a storyabout this event and and tell me
some tell help me make sense ofthe spiritual world.
And sometimes these things havethis really awesome
interweaving, most often, right?

(08:16):
Where you know the gods orwhatever of our religion are are
you know carrying out acts orevents that then become this
blurry uh is that fact orfiction?
And um, and so you know, has itevolved over time?
I I think so.
And I think we're in like such acrazy time where um you know,

(08:43):
people like you said a littlebit earlier, I think a lot of
people are not reading as muchanymore, myself included.
And the stories that we'regetting are small, tiny,
bite-sized things that we canlike, you know, that we can
actually hold in our littlesquirrel brains.
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (09:00):
And well, cultural a is that cultural ADD or just um
I think I think it might be.

SPEAKER_03 (09:06):
I mean, I think that we've we've kind of as a as a
society, as a as a species, kindof worked ourselves into a into
that kind of frenzy.
And yeah, um, the lack ofpatience and the lack of
solitude and the lack of calm,you know.

SPEAKER_01 (09:22):
Yeah, it's been said we live in an image saturated
image saturated society, butalso, yeah, I would say we
become yeah, I just call itcultural ADD, but yeah, maybe
it's evolution and let's not putany judgment on it.
We will adapt, right?
But we do for whatever reason,maybe because of all the noise
and the overstimulation.

(09:42):
Um, you gotta get theirattention and quick.

SPEAKER_03 (09:46):
Yeah.
I mean, it's definitelychanging.
So I don't know if it's evolvingbecause I usually associate like
you know, some kind of uh uhsurvival adaptation to
evolution.
And I I just know that it'schanging in and at light speed,
right?

SPEAKER_01 (10:02):
Yeah, exponentially, I would say.
Yep, I'm with you on all ofthat.
So um thank you for that,Virginia.
Any comments, any questions?

SPEAKER_00 (10:11):
I know I was thinking the same thing that we
are constantly surrounded by,you know, the noise be that you
know, it just feels likeeverybody's just kind of
shouting into the into thechasm.

SPEAKER_01 (10:23):
I used to call X, well, whatever we called it
before.
I used to say it's like shoutinginto a tornado.
Yeah, love me, love me.
But yeah, I mean, I I sorry tointerrupt you, Virginia.
Maybe you can chime in.
I just feel like there's a hugedifference between content and
then the story that transforms.
So maybe we're being inundatedwith content, but it's maybe to

(10:46):
for the almighty dollar or forengagement, right?
Which is indirectly for thealmighty dollar, or propaganda,
which you know, getting intosomebody's pocketbook is
propaganda in a way, it just isseeking a different outcome.
So, anyway, I'm the snob who'sgonna say, okay, but as things
evolve, if more and more contentor noise or vacuous content,

(11:08):
call it what you want, if we'rebeing inundated with that, then
some new form of art that wedon't yet recognize is gonna
rise from those ashes.
One hopes.
I agree.

SPEAKER_03 (11:20):
I yeah, I think that there's that that pendulum, and
hopefully, you know, everythingis in some cycle, and it feels
like when you reach one extremeand like you said, of of
saturation, then I I sure hopethat people will be so ready and
almost desperate for connection,and that's where that's gonna

(11:42):
come from.
And that's that's another thingabout storytelling that I think
is it's to it's to remind us ofour um of that connection that
we all share, that humancondition that we're all a part
of.
Yep.
And the these great stories,some some of the best stories
are the ones that do that, andyou know, they might just

(12:03):
surprise you.

SPEAKER_01 (12:04):
Remind us that we're all interconnected.
Yeah, yeah.
Absolutely.
I agree with all that.
And it's been said too, youknow, Jen Alpha, what is it?
Gen Alpha is starved for exactlywhat we're talking talking
about.
They're kind of done withanyway.
And in the back of my mind, Iread a little, I think it was an
Insta post yesterday.

(12:25):
It was a trailer uh created, ofcourse, all in AI, right?
Saying, hey, we're throwing,we're cobbling together a bunch
of tropes and we're gonna do awhole series.
And it was it was satire, it wascomedy.
But they were talking about thiswhole series they're doing with
just AI-generated imagery andcharacters, and um, even the
script was cobbled together withthe old tired tropes, and it was

(12:46):
very funny, but it's like, isthat the future?
You know, and so that's where Idecided something new will
arise.
It always does.
And if we're watching nothingbut AI content that I would
argue doesn't really haveinspiration as part of the
creative process, it's it'sreally just got out an outcome,
right?
As its impetus, then somethingelse, there's gonna be, like you

(13:10):
said, a a starvation forsomething more that reminds us
of our humanity, like you said,or our interconnectivity.

SPEAKER_03 (13:18):
Yeah, I think uh, you know, with uh raising kids,
so I have like two teenagers nowand um scary.
Sorry.
It is scary, and you're youreally see that um with the the
amount that that students inschool are being asked to read,
so it's not just what they readin their free time, but also

(13:39):
what they're being asked toread.
You know, basically basicallythere's just no reading
happening, they're readingpassages, they're reading parts
of things.
Um teachers are struggling somuch with the the you know
attention, you know, lack ofattention.
And when when you're notreading, I was listening to this
one thing, I can't remember whoit was, but you know, by

(14:02):
reading, that's how you actuallystep into other people's shoes
and you you discover likeempathy and you you get into
these characters' shoes and thenyou go through these experiences
with them.
And there's a level of empathythat comes from that that you
just can't really get anywhereelse.
And the only other place wouldbe like meet a lot of people,

(14:24):
talk to a lot of people, andreally get to know their
stories.
But that's harder and harder andharder to do.
And especially if everybody,let's say you put your phone
down for a minute and you walkaround the street and you might
find somebody who's not on theirphone, then how much time do
they have?
How much time do you have toreally get to know them?
So we're just in this likefast-paced society, and that,

(14:46):
and I think the youngergeneration is basically, you
know, you were saying they'rekind of starved of that
connection, but they're almostlike not growing up with it.
Where we came from, uh, I cankind of remember that transition
where I was reading a lot andthen it just kind of fell off a
cliff.
Um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (15:03):
So so if you're not getting, if you're not learning
empathy and compassion rightthrough reading, then the next
step would be, oh, just engagewith what's around you, but they
don't have the tools to do that,right?
That's the scary part.
I will confirm some of thethings that you said, you know,
and this is the part where, yes,uh the book does go into this,
and the podcast is loosely basedoff the book.

(15:24):
But yeah, there are veryclear-cut studies that say when
you read about the other thatyou might not otherwise have be
privy to, well, that growscompassion more than anything.
And it tends to be uh literaryfiction more than commercial
fiction, of course.
But yes, one of the biggestoutcomes is empathy, which is
kind of the word of the day, uh,you know, in light of the

(15:45):
political violence lately,right?
The word empathy has been comingup a lot.
But sorry.

SPEAKER_00 (15:51):
Oh, I wanted to say something to what both of you
kind of were talking about, um,especially you, Brian, is
because I have a 15-year-old,um, soon to be 16-year-old,
which is even more scary becauseshe's gonna be driving soon.
Um, but she um she's been doingonline school, and I actually
just did the wholeparent-teacher conference, and
the language arts teacher wasthere and was we're just kind of

(16:13):
talking about like where mydaughter was um with reading and
stuff, and she does read like onher own boat in language arts,
like you're saying, yeah, it'slike just passages and stuff.
And I think the reason why thelanguage arts teacher won't meet
with me is because she had to doa reflective video essay back,
and she's like, It's really hardto tell you what my opinions are
when I feel like everything's afragmented narrative.

(16:36):
And I thought that wasinteresting that she picked up
on that, that she's not reallygetting the full story by
reading just sections of a book.

SPEAKER_01 (16:43):
Well, we had do you remember we would read the
Cliff's notes?
Yeah, right.
I think we all have some versionof I don't know.
I will say this everything I wasever forced to read in school
blew me away, and I fell in lovewith it.
And you know what I mean?
Everything from greatexpectations to weathering
heights to the outsiders tosummer of my German soldier.
I think the reading listschanged over the years, but the

(17:06):
stuff I was forced to read mademe who I am, and I would count
them all as influences in mywriting.
So anyway, we we did do thecliffs notes, but I would say,
do you remember, Virginia?
We had a not gonna rememberwhich guest, but one guest that
was in education said they werecalled to the carpet by a parent
who said, Why are you making mychild write?

(17:29):
I'm paying, I think it was atutoring situation.
I'm paying you to teach my childto read.
Was it the other way around?
But like they didn't get thatthe conceptualization process,
you know, to interpret whatyou're reading requires that you
formulate your thoughts and youemploy executive function,
right?
Which is the thing that'smissing, really, is that

(17:52):
follow-through in that executivefunction.
But if you're having everythingspoon-fed to you, and that I
guess that it whatever versionof the Cliff's notes they're
getting now, you're not engagingwith it.
It's got to be interactive.

unknown (18:03):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (18:03):
And well, that's what my daughter was saying when
she said that was a fragmentednarrative because she's like,
um, you know, you want me to usecritical thinking skills and
tell you what I'm picking up,and all I can tell you is what
I'm glimpsing in this one momentof time from this passage of a
whole story.
So, how can I how can I reallytell you what my overall
thoughts are of these charactersif I don't know anything more

(18:26):
than what I just read?
I mean, it's like literally likereading the headlines.

SPEAKER_01 (18:29):
Right, right.
A little snippet.
Well, also, here's what I'llsay.
Sorry, we'll we'll get back ontrack.
But I did a reading of this,probably my first screenplay,
and I got some good feedbackfrom actors saying, Well, I can
really sink my teeth in, andthis is pretty raw, you know,
this is pretty rare to see.
They sensed that it was a livedexperience and it transcended or

(18:50):
whatever.
It was horrible, trust me.
Uh, I got much better at thetechnique of screenwriting, but
they felt the rawness in it andthey really liked it.
So I did a reading with actors.
And Virginia, you probablyremember my friend Keith left
midway through, and he was aScientologist, and he diagnosed
me.
He wrote a letter that I thefirst sentence I couldn't even

(19:10):
roll with.
He goes, Death is theaccumulation of pain.
And I'm like, I'm out, because Idon't even know if I agree with
that.
But anyway, he went out todiagnose me, and I very much
thought, no, no, no, no, youdidn't stay for the redemptive
part, right?
You didn't even, I hate to saymessage, but there was thematic
content that was veryredemptive.
But you show the good, the bad,and the ugly, including the

(19:31):
pain, right?
Because you can't tell the storywithout it.
But I just thought you don't getto have an opinion because you
didn't hang in there for thewhole message of the damn thing.
So when you get it just afragment like your daughter,
yeah, you can't talk about thethematic content because the
want and the need and whetherthey were met, and then the
thematic content that resultsfrom that, yeah, it's gonna be

(19:53):
completely lost on you.

SPEAKER_03 (19:56):
It's really fascinating to think about just
because as you guys are talking,I'm I'm thinking about my kids.
And so my son is 15 and mydaughter's 17, so she's gonna be
going to college soon.
Um but we talk about like theadaptation and the the changing
brains.
So if if our kids, like if our15-year-old, like my son and

(20:17):
your daughter, Virginia, arebeing fed or being asked to read
these small snippets, which areprobably quite a bit longer than
most of the things that the kidsare reading, right?
Most of the kid things the kidsare reading are gonna be those
headlines or you know, some uhmeme subtitle overlay of a

(20:39):
YouTube video or whatever, youknow.
Um is the brain I mean,definitely the brain is
changing, the brain chemistry ischanging to um to consume these
small bits of information.
Now, if that higher levelfunctioning, the executive
functioning isn't there to goalong with it, then you have a

(21:01):
problem.
And how is the brain gonna adaptbeyond that?
Because it you could one couldargue that the future is just a
bunch of humans consuming tinybits of information, but making
huge decisions and judgmentsabout that, right?
So I mean that's a apossibility.
I don't know what to do.

SPEAKER_01 (21:19):
Well, what do you do in your like you can't really
control how academia or the youknow public education is is
handled, but what do you do inyour parenting to kind of
develop those skills?

SPEAKER_03 (21:32):
Well, for me, I mean, I'm sure Virginia has
thoughts on this too, but forme, I I have find it really,
really hard.
I mean, like I'm we're notsuccessful, I would say.
I mean, I have a um my mydaughter was a natural reader,
that was just what she did.
She loved books.
She had read you know more booksby the time she was um like 12

(21:56):
or something than I had read inmy whole life.
And that's that's just not anexaggeration.

SPEAKER_01 (22:00):
She well, look at her parents though.

SPEAKER_03 (22:02):
You she got it from somewhere for sure.
Yeah, my wife is a is a writerand she reads a ton, but it was
just one of those things where Iwas like, wow, this is kind of
amazing.
And um, and then with my son, itwas really the opposite.
I mean, it was hard for him toto stay focused and sit.
And he really loved when he waslittle to be to have stories

(22:23):
read to him.
And um and so that was what wedid early on.
But then you get this kind ofdeluge of of you know, the
phones and social media, andeverybody, you know, you get to
a point where everybody has aphone, and at some point you're
like, geez, you know, my kidneeds a phone because they're
you know, they're starting toget older and they're gonna be

(22:45):
out and about, and I want to beable to get a hold of them, but
you know, there's that that toolfunctionality of the phone is
like the the tiniest amount thatit's used, right?
I mean, it's just a a device tostay connected through Snapchat
and all that stuff.

SPEAKER_01 (23:02):
I I find it a diversion, like instead of just
waiting at that bus stop andnoticing the bird splashing
through the puddle or the doll,you know, the dollop of light on
the cement, you're not in themoment because you have a
convenient diversion.
I also in my teaching, by theway, was the I remember the
moment where I thought, okay,they're walking in the classroom
doing anything but making eyecontact.

(23:23):
And you know, in the phone is agreat way of never learning that
skill.
And I don't know if everybodydid this, but I remember in my I
don't know, early 20s, as you'refiguring out who you are.
I guess like confidence nevermeant much to me, or I wasn't
that important.
I just thought, well, confidenceis just faux confidence, you

(23:44):
know.
But I did think I'm gonna lookeverybody in the eye today.
You know, I'm not in New York,so I can.
I can, you know, I can lookeverybody that I pass in the eye
and maybe even nod or say hello.
Like I think we all had thatrite of passage where we were
trying to just be human.
And like I just remember, ooh,they they're not even saying
hello to the teacher in anass-kissing way.

(24:05):
Like, what is that?
Wouldn't you isn't I don't know,but the phone was a great way of
not developing those socialskills.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (24:13):
Yeah, I'd agree with that too.
I I'm seeing that um in my ownhousehold, you know, it's easy
for everybody to show up and uhkind of like look stuff up on
their phone and not reallyinteract with each other when my
when my kids get togetherbecause my two older ones are
out of the house.
Um but what what I have donebecause Sabrina, uh I'm saying

(24:35):
her name, she doesn't care.
She's out she's at she's outthere on anyways, but um, yeah,
Sabrina's pretty much uh she sheloves to read.
And so I'm lucky that you know,she and she has her genres of
books that she likes to read.
But what what I have found thatwe have done, and I I think it's
helpful too because her oldersiblings do the same thing, is

(24:58):
when she's when when my youngestis on her um phone and you know,
surfing social media and stuffcomes up, or she hears about
something, she'll come and askus.
And with my older ones, I was atypical parent.
I did the whole, you know,here's my opinion, here's where
I'm coming from, here's mythoughts.

(25:18):
And I think I have, which drivesher my youngest insane, but I
have shifted to where instead Ikind of reflect back, like, oh,
so you what I'm hearing is isyou're finding that that's sad.
And it's just because of mycounseling that she gets me,
just quit, quit therapizing me.
But what happens is I'm I'mturning the table on her because
I'm actually getting her likeright now, actually, her and her

(25:38):
siblings are in a disagreementwith each other, and she wants
me to give her the answer ofwhat she should do.
And I'm like, I don't know whatyou should do.
I know what I would do, but Ican't answer what you're gonna
do.
And so I'm actually making hertalk it out and work it out with
me like I would anybody sittingacross from me on the on the you
know counseling couch, whichdrives her nuts, but it does, it
gets her brain thinking.
And I think that's something Ithink as parents now we have to

(26:01):
do because exactly what yousaid, Brian, they just don't get
that same kind of interactionthat we all did growing up.

SPEAKER_03 (26:12):
Yeah, and that thinking is hard.
I mean, it's like you actuallyfeel the effort that your brain
is undergoing when you're bored.
And when I was when I wasyounger and I was bored, it was
it was the the the feeling thatI wanted the most.
And like because I didn't callit boredom.
I mean, of course I would belike, oh mom and dad, I'm bored,

(26:34):
I'm so bored.
But really for me as an artist,that was the time when I just
you know, I drew, right?
Yeah, yeah.
And my my I hungered for thatlike my whole adult life, like
as I got into, you know, being aprofessional artist, I wanted
that boredom so badly.
And um, but when I can see it inthe kids, like when they're

(26:56):
thinking through something,that's difficult.
And they'll do it, they savethat energy for school.
And then when they're not inschool, they're like, Oh, I'm
this is my release time, this ismy chill time.
And what that really means, um,the kind of hidden meaning of
that is like I'm just notthinking.

SPEAKER_01 (27:15):
Yeah, well, we talked about executive function
as well, you know.
And I think the boredom is wherecreativity arises from, right?
If you're not yes, and yes, Inever used that word either.
In fact, as a kid, I wouldthink, how could you be bored
when there's elephants in Africaand to learn about and zebras?
Like the world is such afascinating.
I recognize that as a kid.

(27:36):
Like, yeah, I could how couldsomebody be bored?
But I do think maybe being inthe moment and not having that
diversion 24-7 of a device, thatis right, kind of where all
creativity arises from.
I mean, letters to a young poet,right?
It's it's not isolation, but itis stillness.

SPEAKER_03 (27:55):
Yeah.
So anyway, we're I was thinkinggo ahead.
Can I just wanted to follow upon that?
Because when we were when wewere kids, at least for me, we
had that like the EncyclopediaBritannica or whatever.
Right, right.
The illustrated one, and it wason the bookshelf.
Yep.
And just to think if if youdidn't have that and you could

(28:17):
see elephants in Africa, everytype of elephant, every video
about elephants, every possiblething about elephants
immediately.
And the human brain is so youknow, we can like quantify and
we can categorize and we can soyou're you have all of that
access on your phone.
Imagine when because when wewere little, you gotta go in the

(28:38):
gap.
Oh my gosh, I would lay down onthe rug and with my feet in the
air, and I would flip throughthe Encyclopedia Britannica with
the amazing illustrations, and Iwould fantasize about those
other worlds.
And I think that act offictionalizing, like imagining
that we just don't, we'reskipping that step because

(28:59):
everything is like I can justsee a picture, and now I don't
even know.
Now it's AI, but like right,right, right, and that's just
it's off the charts, it totallyblows my mind, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (29:07):
Yeah, well, I I think that's what I meant by
image saturated and simplyoversaturated because yeah,
that's what imagination isfilling in the gaps when not
everything is handed to you,right?
And that's how it becomesinteractive, and um yeah, I
don't know.
I I I this is related a littlebit in terms of the

(29:27):
over-stimulation, but this isprobably 20 years ago now.
I remember, you know, thelatest, greatest Matrix had come
out, and I already had God knewwhat was on the horizon with AI,
right?
But I already, being inentertainment, I already
thought, God, does everythinghave to be exploding helicopters
all the time and have a toyattached or some franchise?
And you know, where's the realraw storytelling that speaks of

(29:49):
the human condition?
And yes, I was aware there werecommercial films and more niche
films or art films orindependent films.
I was aware of all of that, butI did think, why is every studio
picture about the body count oryou know, the the exploding
hell?
It was really effects driven.
Everything at that moment waseffects driven.
And I I mean I say the thirdmatrix, I don't know, it was
somewhere in there, but Iremember I almost walked out,

(30:12):
and I'm so I always get mymoney's worth.
I've almost never walked out ofa film, but I was just so aware
at that moment, like I can't rubtwo nickels together to make my
own films right now, but yetthey're throwing money at these
effects driven films.
But then the next day I went tothe Bodhi Tree bookstore.
I don't know if either of youremember that on Melrose.
Really great, yeah, a greatbookstore.

(30:34):
And there was a performance ofVietnamese shadow puppetry, and
it's about as minimal as itsounds.
It's these really beautifulsounds.
Transparent puppets that are areal art.
It's kind of like Wahawk andwood sculpture, like the whole
culture learns this craft.
And anyway, and it's they justtell the story with the shadows

(30:55):
on the wall from these reallybeautiful puppets.
And I'm sorry, that rocked myworld more than the
overstimulation of that Matrixfilm.

SPEAKER_02 (31:02):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (31:03):
So that's what I mean by like hopefully we'll
return.
And again, Jen Alpha issupposedly starved for it.
And that's why actually Disneyis bringing back 2D.
I don't know if you guys haveheard that.
No.
Yeah, well, it's speculation,but they have, I mean, some of
my animator friends have beenhired back to start doing little
experimental sequences andtraining younger animators.

(31:25):
So it's happening.
Yeah.
And I didn't really sorry, Ididn't really care that much one
way or the other, because to me,it's storytelling that matters,
not the medium or the technique.
But there's something about thearchival quality, you know,
returning some value back toarchival quality materials.
And even in the fine art realm,right?
I think there's something to besaid for tangible art.

(31:49):
Yes.
Okay.
Okay.
Always more to say, but I'mgoing to go on to our second
rote question, Brian.
Um, so in all of that, I thinkwe've I love what you said, by
the way, about the role ofstorytelling and culture and how
it how it's evolved.
Um, so what makes you astoryteller?
I know that you probablyidentify, I don't want to put

(32:12):
words in your mouth, as a visualstoryteller, but you're also a
writer.
So simply put, what makes youBrian Thompson, a writer?
A storyteller.
Sorry.
What makes you a storyteller?

SPEAKER_03 (32:23):
Oh my gosh, I don't know.
I I do do do do yeah.
That's that's a deep, deepquestion.
Should we do a part part two?
I think that I think that whatmakes me a storyteller is that
uh I love like I feel likethere's just an inherent kind of

(32:45):
magic in everything.
And when you I really my wholelife I've uh been uh a very keen
observer of things.
I was quiet as a kid and I I wasreally artistic early on, and I
think I just I looked and andnoticed.
And I I think that one of thethings I I try to do um or that

(33:10):
I hope that I do, I don't setout to do it, but I want people
to feel something, I want themto have a response to something.
And I'm just gonna digressslightly to um I guess started
getting into things like um woodcarving, um specifically spoon

(33:32):
carving and like leathercrafting and what what was
really fascinating, all there'sa ton of things that I could
talk about in those, but I won'trather but the creating an
artifact with my hands, likeknowing the tree that this wood
came from, shaping that the uhthe wood into a spoon, giving it

(33:58):
to someone that they will use intheir kitchen to cook meals for
their family was uh a type ofstorytelling that filled me up
so much.
And it and it contrasted so muchwith the digital art making I
had been doing for so long.
And it was similar when I gotinto leather cooked stuff.
I just wanted to make somethingsimple, so a wallet, I could do

(34:20):
these simple fold over walletsand things because my skill was
um, I was just learning.
But I started making these andthen gifting them to friends and
family.
And when I see them, like youknow, five years later, and they
still have that wallet and thepatina on the leather and the

(34:42):
smell of it, and and I look atit and I'm just filled up with
like I made something with myown hands that's that's there's
only one of those things in theworld.
And that is an artifact thatperson carries with them
literally every single day.
And um this might have picturesof their kids and you know,
dollar bills that have beenpassed from human to human

(35:04):
throughout the whole world.
And it's just I I don't know.
Um, I don't really know how todescribe the mystique of that.

SPEAKER_01 (35:12):
Um well it sounds like it it becomes you know the
storied, the the well, right,the artifact, it's not
utilitarian, it might serve afunction, right?
And there's all these elitistviews about craft versus high
art, you know, and utilitarian.
But the most satisfying thingscan be things that last and are
utilitarian by definition.

(35:33):
But I'm hearing, I've neverthought about it this way, but
it it's becoming storied, right?
Through use, the patina tells astory, all the photographs
you're talking about.
It become it takes on a storyalmost.

SPEAKER_00 (35:45):
Well, I was just thinking, like, you know, and
and that whole or and it'sorganic, so it's not multi, you
know, manufactured.
So as you're kind of talkingabout, it was making me think of
the movie The Red Violin, andhow that violin, you know,
that's what the whole movie'sabout, right?
Is this this violin that wascrafted and you know, obviously
stained in his wife's bloodbecause she died from a

(36:06):
miscarriage, but you know, thefact is and it went on to the
next person, next person.
So it had its own life that wasyeah, breathed into this object.
Well, you know, as you said, itit it had it was storied, it it
had its own story and it wasvery organic.

SPEAKER_03 (36:22):
The um yeah, a musical instrument, especially
like the cheese.
I mean, the life that aninstrument has had and seen and
the places it's been and whatit's been played on it.
And um, you know, I I startedfeeling that when I was um
starting to trade drawings withpeople all over the world, I

(36:45):
would do these sketches or Iwould just reach out to people
totally, sometimes completelycold, and just be like, I love
your artwork.
Would you be willing to tradewith me?
And um and that's kind of whatum you know, that's that's sort
of the impetus of this thingthat we I wanted to talk about a
little bit later.
But I don't know if I if thatreally answers the question very

(37:07):
well.
Um, because it's not somethingthat's like really concrete for
me, it's very um intangible.
And I think that that when Imake something whether it's a
line on a white sheet of paperor uh or a spoon or a

(37:28):
leathercraft or a painting or apoem, you know, there's so much
love that goes into the makingof it.
Like literally every line is Ilove every single line.

SPEAKER_01 (37:41):
Yep.
And um that's gonna come up whenwe discuss your poem, I think.
Yeah, by the way.
Right?
This is all interconnected.
And I will I will say this youknow, a true art, uh I'm not
about to define what a trueartist is.
Let me start over.
I think one of the one way oflooking at it is there are

(38:01):
artists who are not that in tunewith it's unexamined.
Do you know what I mean?
It's visceral.
Their drive to create iscompletely unexamined, and it's
a beautiful thing.
Then there are other people thatlearn craft and technique, and
we all know the rules get in theway for a while and then the
dust settles, right?
And hopefully, exactly.
Yeah, I think we all go throughsome version of that where the

(38:22):
rules become second nature andyou get back in touch with why
the hell you do it in the firstplace.
So we're all somewhere on thatjourney of finding our voices,
and then, but I do think it canremain unexamined, and there
I'll just give without throwinganyone under the bus, my
sister's a vocal instructor, andI'm trained a little bit, you
know, Seth Riggs and even mysister early on.

(38:43):
I took some lessons with her,but it's nothing I've ever put
on the front burner or pursued.
So when I invited her to afriend, a friend's um gig, who
finally at 40 something decidedto get her her music out there,
literally her voice out there,and it was a beautiful thing to
watch, and it was so gut leveland visceral, and it just defies

(39:04):
any, do you know what I mean?
Like conversations aroundtechnique.
And yet, my sister being a vocalinstructor, she was like, Wow,
she's really using her middleregister beautifully, and it's a
mix and the lower larynx, man.
And sorry, Renee.
And I was like, no, no, no, no,no, just just feel it, just be
in the moment.
But we all have some version ofthat.
I'm such a sucker, I'm sorelational that when I watch a

(39:26):
movie, I forget to look attechnique, you know, unless it's
really bad and the boom micenters the frame, and you see
through the medium, you know,through the message to the
medium, I tend to just get soengaged that I forget to learn.
I forget to learn my craft whenI watch films.
But anyway, so I think I love itwhen a you know, somebody
doesn't really know what makesthem tick as an artist, and it

(39:47):
can be very visceral.
I know you can articulate it,Brian, but I think sometimes we
over-romanticize keeping it amystery because I love,
especially with students, theyfear if I bring it out into the
light, it's gonna lose itspotency.

SPEAKER_02 (40:02):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (40:02):
And I think maybe there's a longer journey where
you do analyze what makes youtick, and then yeah, like all
technique, it becomes say secondnature again.

SPEAKER_03 (40:13):
Yeah.
Well, I think that I still amstruggling with the question,
and I think that is an honestanswer.
Like, I think that I'm alwayslearning.
Um, I mean, what you described,that journey of like, oh, we,
you know, we we have thisimpetus early on to be an artist
and we're we're not sure, andthen we go into art school,
maybe, and then you you know,you get all of this technique

(40:34):
and skill-based stuff forcedupon you, and then you know,
you're told you're never gonnaamount anything.
And then uh, you know, 20 yearslater, you're like, Oh, okay,
like this is what I'm meant todo, and this is why.

SPEAKER_01 (40:50):
And um yeah, I think it's and well, I I do separate
like finding your voice withinyour craft from like assigning
it to a sense of purpose orrealizing what it serves on the
macro.
But I want to backpedal a littlebit because we're into this
territory now.
Um, for our listeners, I want tobackpedal and say, we're

(41:11):
talking, I love the purity, likeyou said, of just learning to
whittle spoons.
It's uh it's got a legacy and ahistory behind it, right?
And I think I mentioned toVirginia uh somebody I went to
school with that I think theworld of as well as an artist.
I I guess I won't say any names,but um, during the pandemic, he
sent me a beautiful paintingthat I just treasure, you know.

(41:33):
And um, even back then, duringArt Center, he I guess I'm
pretty shallow because he gaveme$500 worth of old oil paints
that he wasn't using.
So that won me over way backthen.
But anyway, he um I just admirewhat he's up to.
He is the most prolific plainair painter I know, and it
really serves him to just go outevery day and create a little

(41:54):
panel, and he's just crankingthese things out, so it's really
beautiful to watch.
But more to the point, hewhittles um fishing rods.
Oh yeah, I don't know if it washe was raised in Hawaii, he's
not Polynesian, but he wasraised in Hawaii and he's a
surfer.
But somewhere in there, helearned this craft of whittling,
and you got to get him right,you know, it's very precise.

(42:16):
But anyway, I really love thepurity and the rawness of that.
So by contrast, Art Center, Ithink it occasionally redefines
itself.
But I know when I went there,because there was no
entertainment track, I foundedit for good or bad, I created
that monster.
But when I went there, it wasall concept.
I joke, like I was paid to learnhow to think.

(42:38):
Sure, I think some fine artiststhought, ooh, it's so elitist
and so high art that if I reallyacademically want to learn to
draw and paint and learn myperspective and my composition
and my color theory, I've got totake illustration, not fine art.
But even so, it was veryconceptual.
I learned to think conceptually.
That can be at odds withnarrative, right?

(42:59):
In entertainment, whether it'scinema or even I don't know,
theater or any other form ofentertainment, it can be very
narrative and the two can be atodds.
So I just want to backpedal alittle bit and say before we
talk about your career ingaming, what was your big
takeaway from Art Center?
What were the biggest things youlearned from Art Center, if

(43:21):
anything?
I hope it's something becauseit's very expensive.

SPEAKER_03 (43:25):
It's it's yeah, and it it's it wasn't it wasn't as
expensive as it is now, but umso many things.
I mean, Art Center was like justa life-defining uh moment.
And I was going to school atUniversity of Washington up in
Seattle um before that, and Iwas two years into that program

(43:46):
where I had some teachers andthey were like, Look, you know,
you University of Washington hasmore of a fine art, you know,
traditional fine art-basedprogram, and you're just not
going to be happy, you know.
They could just tell.
All I was trying to basically doentertainment work for these
fine art projects andassignments.
And I had one teacher who justsaid, you know, Brian, I I

(44:09):
really think um, I really thinkhe should go to Art Center in
Pasadena.
And um, it's a it's a schoolthat my high school art teacher
had had told me about too.
But I had been like, no, no, Iwant a four-year, you know,
liberal arts education and Ican't focus this early.
And so anyway, after two yearsat University of Washington, I I

(44:30):
left and I actually did that andI bit the bullet and took out
the loans and went to artcenter.

SPEAKER_01 (44:35):
And it was probably already had your general ed,
right?

SPEAKER_03 (44:38):
I did.
I basically had all my creditsfor that stuff, so I didn't have
to do no waste of time.
Yeah, yeah.
I got to really focus.
Um, but I had so many uh things,I mean uh so many like different
epiphanies, too.
Um, I mean, I'll probably startum I'll probably start with you.

(45:00):
Uh your class, um, and it's notjust because I'm on your show,
it's because we're friends.
I hope yeah.
Your class, you taught me somany things.
Um, just about the bridgebetween the things that I love
to do, um, build worlds, createcharacters, think about
storytelling and the theater ofit and the audience and how the

(45:24):
audience is reacting to whatyou're showing them and how you
can lead them through that thevisual storytelling.
All of that stuff was just likemind-blowing to me.
And it really was literally likeexactly what I wanted to learn
when I went to Art Center.
But I had been doing all thefoundations and everything.
So when I got into your class, Iliterally was like, oh my God,
like now, now is when it starts,you know?

(45:48):
And um that was one part, andobviously that's complex, as you
know, because you taught theclass, so there's lots of things
that go into that.
But the other thing was youintroduced me to a type of like
mark making um and drawing thathit such a note with me, it felt
so akin to the marks that Ialways loved, and um and it

(46:13):
totally changed my drawingstyle.

SPEAKER_01 (46:17):
Um, I don't know if you knew that, but well, I
remember we used to we bothprobably liked um I don't know,
like Frisetta and I know trees.
We shared an aesthetic when itcame to trees, gnarly trees.
Yeah, but but it was thestraights to curves to straights
to curves.

SPEAKER_03 (46:36):
Yeah, it was straights to curves and like
those sickle-shaped marks, andthe um the gestural mark was
very different.
It was basically like taking alot of the the facility with the
pencil that I we had been honingwith figure drawing and bringing
that way of drawing into um youknow, drawing layouts or drawing

(46:59):
environments or setting up ascene or whatever like that.
And so I became that's where Ireally fell in love with the
mark.
So I attributed.
And now you're way up.

SPEAKER_01 (47:09):
Wow.
Well, I think if anything, Ijust saw it in you and I may
have encouraged it, but I sawsomething really beautiful
there.
And I would say, in terms ofmark making, which is not a
word, you know, that termdoesn't come off my lips often.
Yeah, yeah, but you're all aboutthat, and you are off the
charts.
So I didn't learn, well, really,I I there's the Shinkievich's of

(47:32):
the world, and there's Hogarth,and there's you know, Magnola,
and there's a lot of people thatwork with positive and negative
space, right?
And how the line interacts withthese solid fields of black and
figure ground relationships.
There's a lot of there's hugehistory that I've never seen
anything like your work, whereit all comes together and it's

(47:53):
way more expressive thananything else that's out there.
So I want to ask you does Sumimean anything to you?
Do you think about traditionslike Sumi or mark making?
What's your relationship withmark making?
Because it's way off the charts.
I you may have learned somethingin my class, but I think it was
what I saw in you that I triedto encourage you in, if
anything.

SPEAKER_03 (48:15):
Yeah, well, thank you for saying all that.
I mean, it's like you've alwaysbeen kind of one of my heroes.
So for you to talk about my workthat way is it really means a
lot to me, really, honestly.
Um and I think that, you know,we studied Notan, right?
And we studied, we studied like,yeah, Sumi Inc.
and Japanese calligraphy and umat Art Center.

(48:37):
Well, I think I think it may bepart of design class um when
we're looking just at shape, um,but then also just stuff that I
was into.
Um I was really into these, youknow, kind of gestalt type, you
know, masses.
And there's something that thatreally clicked for me, and it

(48:58):
might have been in your class,it might have been in a figure
drawing class, maybe with uhwhen we were doing the do you
remember when you do the likethe powder charcoal um you you
rub the rubbing and then you dothe race out?

SPEAKER_02 (49:12):
Yeah, I do.

SPEAKER_01 (49:13):
No, I don't know it wasn't Vince Robbins, okay.
It was I do remember thatassignment, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (49:17):
You we all had to do a huge yeah, and I that's when
another place where I was like,okay, I'm gonna bring those
marked into the negative shapemaking.
And then I started looking atthe negative shape just as
earnestly as the positiveshapes, and um I think it just
evolved out of that.

(49:37):
I mean, of course, I was a bigMagnola fan.
I fell in love with Sergio Topi,who I didn't really know when I
was at Art Center, and he I kindof learned about him later in
life.
And I think moving to Europe,you go to a comic book store
here, and it's just so differentthan like all the French artists
and I was gonna say, do youspend time in Paris at all?

(49:58):
No, I still haven't been.
Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 (50:00):
Well, you know, les Bouchanists, the the Bouchanist
along the Seine and the wholeLatin quarter, it's all band
dessinée, which is comics, banddessinée, graphic novels, and
it's so appreciated there in away that it's not here.
Your mind is, I'm sure you'vealready been exposed to a lot of
it, but the French ones willblow your mind.
Yeah.
And sadly, I I stocked up onthem when I was living there,

(50:23):
and um, every single one of themis now moldy and the pages are
stuck together because I wateredmy plants in my MR.
Like my armoire became mybookshelf, and I yeah, for years
I watered my plants, notrealizing it was dripping down
into my band dessine.

SPEAKER_03 (50:37):
So yeah, like the do you know the artist Manu
Larcinette?
Do you know him?
Maybe.
Do you know a title?
I hope I'm I hope well, he did abiz he's done so many works, but
the latest one is the his uhversion of the road.
He did a graphic novelinterpretation of Cormac
McCarthy's The Road.
And uh I'll check it out.

(50:59):
Oh, you need to check it out.
Oh, it's so good.
But he he's also like he he'svery um chameleon-like with his
styles, which is something Ireally love because he's a he's
a very um prolific comic bookand graphic novelist who changes
style all the time.

SPEAKER_01 (51:15):
And that's well, I'm let me ask you then, because we
do distinguish between voice andstyle.
So I like that he's versatile,right?
And in style, versatile,adaptable in style.
Do you see a voice that shinesthrough all of that?
A sensibility, a worldview,something like that.

SPEAKER_03 (51:34):
Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (51:35):
What does he bring to the table despite the style,
if that makes sense?

SPEAKER_03 (51:38):
Yeah, yeah.
I think it's that like realstrong sense of um pathos,
maybe.
Is that the right word?
Like just the human, the thethere's a visceral quality that
stylistically his work bringsout.
And again, he he navigatesdifferent styles, but he always

(51:58):
has that voice of like wantingto get deeper into the kind of
visceral nature of ourexperience.
And I don't speak French, somost of the books I've seen are
in French, and I need to findEnglish, you know, versions of
them.

SPEAKER_01 (52:13):
But I get that a lot through the the the narrative
work and yeah, the sequentialwords are worth a thousand
words, they say exactly.
Not to spew a bunch of cliches,but it's kind of true.
If you can tell a storyvisually, you're 90% there.
Words are cheap.

unknown (52:29):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (52:30):
But you know, I do speak French, so hey, uh, be
good practice for me.
Ask me any questions about yourFrench.

SPEAKER_03 (52:39):
I don't know any French questions.

SPEAKER_01 (52:40):
Well, nowadays on the interwebs, you can you don't
even need to go to um GoogleTranslate anymore.
If you use the AI function inGoogle, you can literally say
what does bandessinet mean, andit'll it'll tell you.

SPEAKER_03 (52:54):
Oh, that's cool.
I use my um, it's funny when I'min bookstores, I use my Google
lens, you know, it's got thatlike instant translate.

SPEAKER_01 (53:01):
So I'm like, I'm reading it.
I say we're all part of theproblem and not the solution
here.
I know when it comes totechnology, anyway.
Thanks for going into all that.
Um, for our non-artists, becausewe we don't we don't even know
really, we like to think we knowour listeners, right, Virginia,
but who knows really?
But to bring it back to story alittle bit, because we're

(53:22):
getting specific in terms ofmark making and stuff like that.
Oh, yeah.
So I just wonder coming from ArtCenter, which probably was in
transition when you were there,right?
It was still, I'm sure, somewhatconceptual.
You probably still had plenty ofeditorial illustrator teachers,
and then entertainment wasrather new.
So you went into gaming.

(53:44):
Now I worked on a few titles ingaming, just a few, and it was
largely gameplay driven.
So the art direction was alwaysgameplay driven.
Yeah, but the titles you workedon straight out the gate, it
seems like at um Big Fish werelargely narratively driven, you
know.
Um, drawn and yes, sketch arethose, fetch, I'm sorry.

(54:05):
Yeah, yeah, they were very, andyou were the mastermind largely
behind those.
And I know they were morenarrative, and uh again, you can
clarify this, but I I think thatwas kind of the the brand there
at Big Fish was a little more ofa narrative slant.
So tell me about how story worksin gaming, other than gameplay,
and then your relationship withit.

(54:26):
Like, how did you get to utilizeyour love of story in the gaming
realm?

SPEAKER_03 (54:33):
Yeah, that's a really good question.
And I, you know, it's funnybecause I came, I got into games
without being a gamer myself,and I always thought this was
like a kind of a hindrance um atfirst.
That that became more of aproblem or like an issue when I
was working in like AAA, youknow, I was working on big
console projects.

(54:54):
But when I moved to um and itwasn't a it wasn't a problem for
me, it's sometimes a problem forpeople I worked with because
they were kind of snooty about,you know, if you don't if you
haven't been playing games yourwhole life, and what do you what
do you do when working in games?

SPEAKER_01 (55:10):
Oh, yeah.
No, half the job postings that Isee demand that you be a game
lover.
Yes, sometimes they want a fresheye.
I was hired on a few becausethey wanted an animation person
that was not a gamer.
I love that, but it was therarity, you know.

SPEAKER_03 (55:27):
Right.
I I think what I was working,um, I was like lead concept
artist on a at a company calledSurreal, and we were working on
a big open world, realisticgame.
Um, and I was doing all of theenvironment design.
We were basically doing a like afantasy version of Las Vegas.
I know it's already a fantasyversion.
We were doing a we were doingour own version, which was a lot

(55:51):
of storytelling in itself.
It was almost like stage designtype stuff.
Um, and then when this jobopened up at Big Fish to Art
Direct there, what I realized isthey were doing all 2D adventure
games, basically.
Um they have a bunch of like hitthese this genre called hidden
object games.
I was totally not interested inthat.

(56:11):
But they they were willing todevelop a new title and um and
they wanted it to be like apoint-and-click adventure, kind
of an old school Sierra or Misttype thing.
And you know, as part of metaking the job, I really wanted
to know if I would have full umfreedom to, you know, define the

(56:36):
style of the of the game.
And and I understood that to bethe case.
And so I took the job and then Istarted um developing a project
that was really there wasalready already a game designer,
and um, he was working on this.
It wasn't it wasn't really goingin a good direction.
We were developing art for it,and I was developing a style

(56:58):
that this was the thing that Ilove, Nick, is that I came out
of Art Center and I had all ofthese like influences and you
know, Don Bluth and all the oldDisney stuff, and yourself
included.
And I was like, oh, maybe likedo some lean into that, and so
that's what I started doing.
I started doing you know,background painting.

(57:18):
Um, and with the shape designthat I loved and the color
palettes that I loved and themood, but there was a story
element that was being authoredby another person who it was
just all over the place, and soit's kind of like the art just
always was the backdrop.
And then that um that kind ofdesign leadership changed, and

(57:40):
we were able to reinvent um thatproject, and it eventually
became drawn.
And it was, you know, it waslike, well, what if there was
this young girl and she was shehad this deep story that she was
engaged in and she could paintthese pictures and enter them.
She painted her dreamsbasically, and then the whole

(58:01):
the whole uh mechanic of thegame was to find these paintings
on the wall that were destroyedand repair them.
And then once you repair them,it you gain access into the
world that that paintingrepresented.
And so then it was just it wasit was journey, it was the
hero's journey, it was like theculmination of the juxtaposition

(58:22):
of the world outside of thepaintings and then the world
inside the paintings.

SPEAKER_01 (58:26):
So you would call them designers, but they're
they're writers, really.
Most people would think ofright, the writers.

SPEAKER_03 (58:33):
Well, in those in no, in this particular case, you
can have a game designer who isnot a writer, and they basically
are just doing the um it's avery difficult job, but they're
kind of designing all of thegameplay mechanics.
And then, you know, if there's anarrative element, they write
that sometimes, or they have awriter that they work with.

(58:54):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (58:54):
But what I'm getting at is sorry, in animation,
visual development and storydevelopment are hand in hand, no
matter whether they go on for 20years or a year and then move
into pre-production.
It's very much, you know, thevisuals, as you know, world
building informs thestorytelling.
And sometimes you only build theworld by indulging the concept
art.
So I'm just wondering how thatevolved.

(59:15):
And did you learn yourstorytelling sense by doing it
in gaming?
I'm guessing you probablylearned a lot.
How much did you interact withthe storytelling or the story
structure?

SPEAKER_03 (59:25):
Yeah.
Well, once the once the designthat designer moved on, it was
basically on me and and Chris toyou know, he was kind of like
the senior producer, and I wasthe art director, and the
designer left.
And then the it was we basicallyhad our boss come to us and say,
we could either hire a new gamedesigner or you guys could just

(59:47):
take on that role.
And we were like, what's itarsenic?
You can tell me, Brian.
No, so we did we decided to doit, and and we hadn't done that
before.
I mean, Chris came from a longhistory of playing games and
working in games as a producerand and just a game lover.

(01:00:07):
Did you say Chris Jennings?
No, Chris Campbell.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:10):
Was he the one that used to that came to Art Center
for that um lunch brunch?
Remember, you guys used to comefor um scholarship?
No, for the recruiting event,and I sat next to somebody.
Was that uh no?

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:23):
He never came for that.
No, I'm trying I can't rememberwho came down with me.
I came a couple times.
Um anyway, that that's how webecame these reluctant kind of
uh game designerslashstorytellers, and because it was
an adventure game, it was allstory, you know, it was based up
on these like kind of segments,chapters.

(01:00:45):
you know, acts and then what thecharacter was oh eventually
overcoming and how you build upto that and what are the you
know progressive complicationsthat lead to you know this kind
of story wrapping up and then wemade you know I think it was two
more so it was a trilogy anyway.

(01:01:05):
Um and I had when I was at ArtCenter I'd say outside of your
class the other big story classwas um and it was his
storytelling class really wasthe uh storyboarding with John
Coven.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:19):
You remember John?
I do I I know the name I can'tpicture him right now I'm aware
of him for sure.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:24):
Yeah he so he taught storyboarding class and I took
that class and I really loved itand it was I I really wanted to
um storyboard my own uh storiesand so those became kind of like
graphic novels in a way and umlike because I went way
overboard for what they neededto be as true storyboards but I

(01:01:45):
learned kind of like thesequential the sequential
storytelling and then the cameraand those kinds of things that
then all were tools that I usedto to art direct and and be a
storyteller in games.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:00):
Wow yeah it's all making sense now you know those
early influences uh noteverybody can tell a story
visually and it's aboutinformation reveal right I would
say style doesn't really matterit it depends but in cinema or
animation you know we would showour um reels we call them there
was a you know a reel for everyact and we would of course look

(01:02:22):
at dailies but it got greenlitact by act which doesn't sound
sounds counterintuitive butsometimes the whole act would be
greenlit and based on just uhthe animatic but I'm sorry there
would be one you know one artistwho's really good at the comedic
sequences and somebody whospecialized in you know maybe
the the romance sequences andanother artist who was good at

(01:02:44):
the action adventures and itdidn't drawing style did not
matter at all.
It was all over the board ifthat makes sense because it's
really information reveal thatmatters.
And so I love but I think thefact that you indulged them as
illustrations more so than justuh a means to an end you
developed your love of graphicnovels and comic books if if

(01:03:04):
that makes sense.
It it kind of explains a lotthat that was an early influence
of yours.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:10):
Yeah yeah and I was able to bring all that to bear
in that in that job and thoseyears that I was doing that
there and it was reallyformative for me.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:19):
It's beautiful work I have one of the art of drawn
books only one are there oh yeahare there others for the other
two in the no I think we gave Ithink we gave that to you when
you came up to speak right Ilove it yeah yeah beautiful work
that's cool that's cool and didthey were they refreshed by your
visual storytelling sense whichis more cinematic I'm guessing
were they refreshed by thatbecause I I it seemed new to me

(01:03:43):
when I was given that book I waslike wow this is not your
typical gaming aesthetic yeahthey were I think I think it was
um within that adventure gameyou know sort of genre
especially at that time you knowPC adventure games downloadable
there was a lot of people thatum that reacted really strongly
to that because it just wasn'tuh what it didn't come out of

(01:04:06):
something that already existedit was not um at least in games
of course everything has youknow a derivation like quality
to it but um yeah on that note Imean I will say some of the
people even toward the end atDisney feature animation we got
more and more people from Disneyinteractive from Dimgy and um
even back then this was theCretaceous for God's sake but

(01:04:29):
there was always a desire forbetter storytelling or more
storytelling if that makessense.
I think Silent Hill was new andthey're like ooh there's some
some level of storytelling wehaven't seen before so all the
writer the game designers thatshowed up at Disney feature
animation would talk about thisdesire for better writing and
it's in the eye of the beholdersometimes but I would say um

(01:04:52):
it's come a long way right and Ithink it's always evolving but
the few titles I've worked onnot only was the art direction
not thematically driven but itwas gameplay driven but more so
it was derivative.
Hey let's you know that onetitle they did really well let's
do a hook put a hook on thecarrot like that was the best
little bit of art direction Igot was put a hook on it dude

(01:05:15):
like because it had been seenbefore you know yeah a lot of
the designs I did they were likeyeah cool total freedom yeah we
love it green light and then inthe final couple weeks of this
one gig we just conformedeverything back to the movie
that was neck and neck with thistitle.
Do you know what I mean?
Like it can be very derivativein gaming is my experience.

SPEAKER_03 (01:05:37):
Absolutely and that's why it was so refreshing
to have that kind of opportunityand early on because that was my
first time art directing and Igot so lucky that I got to art
direct something that I got toyou know invent.
Yeah well but it probably alsomade a big I think it probably
changed or broadened the typesof storytelling that are

(01:05:57):
happening in gaming just toguess um I mean I like to think
so within that small that smallgenre you know I mean we it's
not like we had that wasn't thegames that like all the 20 you
know the mid-20 guys wereplaying and on their souped up
PCs this was this was like adifferent type of uh a slower
pace immersion you know thesound and the the the music was

(01:06:19):
all really carefully you knowconsidered and so it that was
the other thing too that it wasjust uh the immersion quality
like what you're giving theaudience that was I really love
that the theatrical element ofit yeah and you guys were very
aware of your demographic tooright I think every gaming
company probably has a brand andthey know exactly who they're

(01:06:40):
catering to.

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:41):
I feel like Virginia may have gone to the restroom
but I trust okay I was like Itrust you'll pipe up if you have
something to say but I amlooking at the clock Brian and
very clearly we need to do parttwo because you and I always
have more to say but maybe as away no we're not wrapping it up
like right now but I want to getto your poem because I feel like

(01:07:03):
it'll open some otherconversations.
So before we do wrap up we tryto go around an hour and 20
minutes and the more I talk herethe more the clock's ticking.
But in the interest of gettingto some of those conversations I
know you had some things you didwish to impart to listeners.
And um we're not going to get toall of them so we'll have a part
two hopefully if you're not toobusy.
But maybe the poem will open upsome of those other

(01:07:25):
conversations do you care toshare that now or is there
better transition I can I canyeah yeah tell us quick quickly
though as as as context I doknow that you have been
incorporating your writing withyour image making maybe you can
tell us about the direct drawingI wanted to get a little more of
a definition on direct drawingand just what you're up to

(01:07:46):
lately really.

SPEAKER_03 (01:07:48):
Yeah well the yeah there is probably part two in
there because um one of thethings I wanted to talk about is
just like the the the abilityfor drawing or art making to
deal in dealing with like youknow um our our deeper emotions
and our our subconscious and umand the direct drawing is

(01:08:11):
something that came out of a youknow a very difficult experience
that I had in my my family'slife and um and I was looking
for I didn't know it but Ineeded a form of expression that
uh would allow me to get some ofthese kind of emotions out.
And um and I was going back andforth to work um throughout this

(01:08:35):
time period over these years umcrossing the Puget Sound to go
from Bainbridge Island toSeattle and I started doing
these drawings and because I wason a ferry and a pen and ink and
paper was the easiest um thingand it was very direct and I
didn't want to sketch anything Ijust wanted to go.

(01:08:57):
I just wanted to do I justwanted my I just wanted the ink
to flow and so that's what'smeant that's what's meant by
direct is no block in.
Yeah right no no sketching justkind of like direct
reassociation symbolism justdrawing trying to enter the flow
state and then letting theletting whatever comes come.

(01:09:18):
But even content wise you haveno plan it just it comes out
yeah I hats off to you I love Imean one of the things that of
course like what do you drawwhen you don't have an idea and
it's like you know I you kind ofskip that step by just having
that visual vocabulary likeright there and then you you

(01:09:40):
oftentimes it'll be like theseorganic shapes maybe it'll be a
tree I started just like youknow pulling up my my sort of
deeper symbolism and recognizinglike if I draw a tree like 20
times don't judge that I'mdrawing a tree just understand
that I'm drawing a tree becauseI love a tree and that's my way

(01:10:01):
of honoring the forms.
And that was the thing of justkind of letting go and then the
direct drawing.
But I that's when I startedposting those ink drawings and I
started getting peopleinterested in them and and it
started to bring up a lot ofthings for for people where they
were like wow you're kind ofhelping me fall back in love

(01:10:22):
with drawing because I've spentmy whole life just trying to
always chasing perfection or youknow sketching and getting to
final and you know even peoplethat are like really successful
comic book artists they justfelt like they had it it had
been so um stilted or they feltcaged by it you know and

(01:10:44):
permission permission to justlet it flow yeah yeah yeah and
this kind of unbridled umquality to it that I just
absolutely fell in love with Ibecame it kind of addicted to
it.
So um people I started um sayinghey you know would you like I
love your work and they wouldsay oh I love your work do you

(01:11:04):
want to do a trade and so maybethere's an artist in Brazil or
in you know in Europe somewhereor South America whatever all
these different places all overthe world and that's where this
idea kind of came from is thatit felt so special to open a
package and carefully unwrap itand take out this drawing that

(01:11:29):
somebody made it was it washandmade and they had put pen
and or pencil it wasn't areproduction and it the the
artifact nature of it in eventhe the journey that it had gone
on through you know acrossoceans or whatever it was was so
magical to me.

(01:11:50):
And it it piqued this part of meof being a little kid and like
treasure and these these thisthe stories that we all go
through and adventure and it wasjust something magical and I I
think one of the things that I Idon't know it's 820 now or it's
it's in my time.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:09):
Do you do I have time to talk about this a little
bit more absolutely we go overtrust me we have some really
long episodes I like that theyeah I just wanted to gently
steer it toward the poem but Ilove this this is context for
the poem yeah it is it is yeahit is and when when I when I
would get these drawings andyou'll totally totally relate to

(01:12:30):
this when I look at a drawing ora painting or a sculpture I've
spent my whole life looking atartwork.

SPEAKER_03 (01:12:38):
And when I look at you know an artist's work I I
can see them in the marks I cansee their personality I can see
their influences I can see I canread the drawing in a way that's
much deeper than just thevisual.
And I think that makes a lot ofsense to artists you know but if

(01:13:02):
you think about other people whohave not looked at art their
whole life or maybe that they'vealways felt a distance from it
they can always everyone canappreciate everybody's got
eyeballs and everybody canappreciate how it makes them
feel or their reactions to it.
But um but oftentimes it stopswith I don't it's not for me or
ooh I really love that.
But but for artists I think itgets to this place where we can

(01:13:25):
see so much in it.

SPEAKER_01 (01:13:26):
And so anyway at best, you know, if somebody's
really I don't know taking theirjourney the chemist to bring
back the French taking theirartist's journey seriously it
can be the purest expression ofyour soul on paper or you know
on canvas.

(01:13:47):
And maybe and we've had writerson here that have said it's kind
of between the lines thatabstract territory that only
language can access is not toput words in anyone's mouth but
yeah a very pure expression ofour subjective consciousness,
you know, our souls if thatdoesn't scare anyone.
Okay.
Yeah and I and yeah I thinkpeople are stilted and there's

(01:14:09):
some people that haven't don'thave that direct access or that
visceral intuitive access totheir pure consciousness.

SPEAKER_03 (01:14:15):
But for those who do it transcends and I think even
that people that can'tarticulate it are going to sense
that yeah in the world and thething the thing with me is I
didn't have access to that untilthis process and this this kind
of thing happened in me where itjust started bubbling up.

(01:14:36):
Well you needed to purge andhave a catharsis I'm guessing
yeah I did and it's it's getsinto that whole thing of like
you know you you have to liveand you have to go to the bottom
of the well to to discover thesethings sometimes and and I did I
went down deep and and found itand it just it started springing
up and so let me read it andthen and I can tell you what I

(01:15:00):
was um yeah um so the idea wellanyway it's how do you how do
you start?
Okay it's called a thousandmiles apart how they came to be
in the desert that day I willnever know but let me tell you
what I remember on the thin pathpale and parched drawn along the

(01:15:23):
earth by the hooves of beaststhey walked from different
worlds unknown from obscurehistories evolving in their own
with the desire for discoverylike a building thirst growing
and growing until one daystepping from their separate
shelters they embarked athousand miles apart one with
drawings bound with string andone with wooden carvings packed

(01:15:46):
away two artists set off in theshadowless gloam, one toward the
horizon's pale glow, the othertoward the sinking silver moon
and in their separate silencewalking with their curious minds
blessed with wandering theyfollowed the light by candles a
thousand miles apart.
Each of them with no spokenlanguage, no alphabet or written

(01:16:08):
word, simply listened deeply tothe sounds of the earth and
hummed the tune of their heart.
And as the night fell they madesolitary camps, alone in
separate silence, but sharingthe same blanket of stars, and
they dreamed impossible dreams athousand miles apart.
And one carefully drew a sheetof paper from the bundle that he

(01:16:29):
had and the other turned a pieceof wood in dark with dark
calloused hands while one lookedinto the emptiness of white to
find the secrets there the otherfelt the flowing grain and the
warmth of fleeting forms.
One set his pen and began to seewhat lines were meant to be and

(01:16:50):
far away another flame caughtthe glint of a careful blade and
he began to carve away allthat's not while the other drew
all that never was a thousandmiles apart.

SPEAKER_01 (01:17:02):
Well that's it's really beautiful yeah it's
really beautiful you're it's soit's strong imagery and that
leads me to a question I wantedto ask earlier um in the
freeform drawing do you findarchetypes come out of you?
Do you recognize universality inthe images that come out of you?

(01:17:24):
Because I feel uh in your inyour writing you know I don't
know all of your writing butover the years I've read enough
of it to know it's very visualthat was so evocative and and
visual and yet the resonance hadmore to do with the symbology.
So I just had wanted to ask thatearlier do you see archetypes
that are universal or uh do younot examine it when they I do I

(01:17:47):
well oftentimes I examine itlike afterwards.

SPEAKER_03 (01:17:50):
Um you know I I sometimes do like that free
association where I take thedrawings and I lay them out and
I especially like theconnections that form between
two completely unrelated thingsbecause each one of these
drawings I would do like a 35minute um on the way to work and
35 minutes on the way home atthe end of the day.
And I call I call the body ofwork the crossing for that

(01:18:12):
because it's the crossing of theferry each way one drawing each
way you know over years.
And so there's like you knowmany, many hundreds.
But um one of the things that Ithink about with like voice and
style is that you you kind ofare um you know excavating these

(01:18:33):
ancient symbols within you.
Yeah and there are things thatyou've gleamed onto something
that resonated with you maybeit's things you've seen but I
also think there's that there'san element of that we talked
about it in that creativitypanel that epigenetics of like
things no dude I sorry go nolike this the symbolism that's

(01:18:54):
passed down right is so it's I Ifeel like when when you're
making this work or like writingor whatever if you're tapping
into this this kind oftimelessness that isn't not
about like the just our whatwe're experiencing here on the
the surface level is just theblink of an eye it's the tip of

(01:19:17):
an iceberg but what is deep deepdeep within us I think is this
connected symbolism.
Yes.
And what where it comes fromit's that's such a cool
philosophical question, youknow?

SPEAKER_01 (01:19:32):
Yeah well I think this this poem makes us think
about all of that.
And I want to quit before I justI'm trying to stop you from
saying too much about yourintention because I think what I
got out of is right in line withyour intention.
I'm of course I think that but Iwant to ask you about a specific
line.
So I just think it's all reallybeautiful.
But since you mentioned the wordepigenetics I did find it

(01:19:55):
fascinating that the line theywalked from different worlds
unknown from obscure historiesevolving on their own.
At first I thought ooh I wonderif that's a typo because it
could be obscure historiesevolving on their own.
But you said from obscurehistories evolving in their own.
So I wrote in their ownhistories right that's the

(01:20:18):
implication.
Yes.
So I wrote um I can't read myown writing because it's so tiny
I wrote shared lineage cellularmemory epigenetics threading all
individuals together into thecollective over time.

SPEAKER_03 (01:20:32):
So yeah that's that one line kind of yeah put me in
touch with what we're tappinginto and it is kind of
intergenerational and uh speaksto speaks to epigenetics so I
didn't imagine that right yeahno that was right yeah and I
think the the overall thing thatI was trying to convey too is
that what if we couldn't talk toone another what if we couldn't

(01:20:58):
speak we we didn't have alanguage we didn't have a tongue
or a way to form words and justlike the the owl that hunts in
the night uh over you knowhundreds or thousands of years
it's evolved its sense ofhearing and its sense of sight.
If if I couldn't speak then mysense of visual interpretation

(01:21:19):
of if you handed me a drawingand I didn't know you at all I
could read that drawing as if itwere your life your a poem from
your heart absolutely and in thesame way that this so I put
these two artists one carvesthings and the other one writes
things okay and so oh yeah goahead well we for the listeners

(01:21:43):
we I I I debated I'm just kindof being fully transparent here
for the listeners I did read itbeforehand of course I took
notes I had to read it manytimes and over you know I let it
sink in and um even overnight Ithink the puzzle pieces you know
cemented themselves and yeah Iwrote my interpretation but I

(01:22:07):
was telling Brian in the greenroom before we came on here like
it's not my time to play criticand feedback to you.

SPEAKER_01 (01:22:16):
This podcast is not about me but I said sometimes
you know that's a great exerciseto see if you're conveying your
intention and so we weredebating about whether I tell
what I got out of it before youreveal your intention or not.
And we're doing a little of bothhere but I'm trying to stop you
because I want to confirm thatyou really I don't know I just
think there's got to be somevalue to hearing what people get

(01:22:36):
out of it.
Have many people said back toyou about this poem um not in
particular this one but I I'veshared it with my my kids and my
family um my wife uh just theidea behind it and I think um it
resonates um it resonates the itgives there's a lot to think

(01:22:57):
about there I think yeah that'swhy I'm just tempted to I'm
stopping you because I kind ofwanted to share what I got out
of it because it would beconfirmation to you that you've
got that would be that would bean honor for me.
It's a little too late butthat's the idea is that you know
you want to know it'stranscending and speaking to
people but I fully fully gotthis idea that I love the word

(01:23:20):
ineffable.
Does that morgue mean anythingto you ineffable defies
language.
Oh yes I've often said you knowmost truth defies language
language is insufficient tocharacterize the ineffable I put
it you know and so I very muchgot that straight out the gate

(01:23:41):
that this is about kind of notthe function of art but one of
them right is that it speakslike I was saying between the
lines like one of our guestssaid it's the nonlinear space
between the lines where languageyou know can create I don't know
fill in the gaps but it can alsobe completely insufficient.

(01:24:01):
So I I do want to pointsomething out to you and then
maybe you can speak to yourintention but I I know what I
got out of it and I guess I'mresisting sharing that but I did
find it because I think there'sa micro level like ooh this is
what Brian's twisted psyche wasworking out right I'm kidding
but then it's like ooh butwhat's the universal version of
that?
What does it say about all ofus?

(01:24:22):
But then I'm the weirdo whoalways goes to the major
metaphysical level the meta viewof what it says about existence
not just the human condition butthe expression of consciousness
in the physical realm I didn'twant to lose anyone but for me
there were many levels to thisso I just wanted to say isn't it
interesting that you can applywhatever symbolism you want to

(01:24:45):
desert right for me a desert isthe chaos of existence it's life
it's it's seemingly empty andvoid but they are meeting right
from very isolated places.
So I think it's pretty obviousthat the two characters whether
you see it as two aspects ofBrian's psyche or two aspects of
the human condition that they'rekind of meeting right in a vast

(01:25:09):
desert.
I don't want to say the obviouseither but to me I think it's
fascinating and maybe you canspeak to this that one uses an
additive medium and one uses asubtractive any symbolism
occurred to you what that mightmean?

SPEAKER_03 (01:25:25):
No, but I it's because you know I mean that
it's definitely I think it'sinterest so interesting to hear
this actually because um the thereason one of the reasons I fell
in love with the wood carvingwas the subtractive nature of it
and and having it be itbasically defies everything that
you do on the computer which islike build up build up control Z

(01:25:49):
control Z.
I mean everything has like a youknow safety net blah blah blah
and when you're carving there isno undo you know you really have
to be in tune with it's notnecessarily what you want to
make it what the wood wants tobecome exactly and because
there's a yeah go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 (01:26:07):
Well I'm just gonna really quickly rattle off what I
got out of it and it's you'redefinitely we're on the same
page for sure.
But I think even you knowsometimes we subconsciously do
things in our writing and that'sthe beauty of art.
It can be so universal if you'vehit on something that the
projections of the patron playinto it you know so I'm just
gonna quickly rattle it offbecause it's not about me but I

(01:26:30):
think yeah I tuned into yourintention because to me it was
about two you know these twoentities again maybe warring
aspects of you or not maybe twodual aspects of the human
condition but what are they iswhat I was wondering.
And yes to me I immediately gotlike ooh the act of creation

(01:26:51):
gives us access to the commonmeeting ground even if so it
spoke very much of our isolationright our subjective realities
which can be very separate andisolated but then there is a
meeting ground somewhere whereis it ooh it's in the act of
creation right and howinteresting that one was
additive and one was subtractiveso on the major macro level I

(01:27:12):
just kind of thought hey maybeand you can just think about
this you might not haveattention but maybe it was about
ego and pure consciousness whichis our souls right so maybe ego
maybe our our pure consciousnessour souls want to add beauty
right we create beauty we createmeaning right Virginia we're

(01:27:33):
meaning makers so we add beautyby making those marks and then
the subtracting was like thechipping away at ego that allows
you to meet in the middle so tome divinity is when you chip
away at ego enough to where yourpure soul can come into the
equation of existence you knowso I just felt like ooh they're
meeting in the middle and it'ssomething to do with ego uh kind

(01:27:54):
of having to chip away uh like asculptor I think it's been said
many times Michelangelo sees theform like the Aristotelian form
that's already exists in theether but you got to bring it
into fruition so I got like allof that like even the Ayn Rand
idea that you know creativity istaking concepts and making them

(01:28:15):
percepts right and so I don'tknow there was something about
additive meant you're creatingbeauty or subtracting means
you're chipping away at ego toaccess pure consciousness.
Does that resonate at all cooltotally resonates um and it's
I'm I'm thinking of it nowthrough you know that lens as

(01:28:37):
well because I totally believethat you write these things and
these things come to you onmultiple levels you know and uh
I think that's a really reallyfascinating interpretation super
cool thank you I'm glad yeah youyou don't have to answer now you
can think about it but I mean ona surf there is no surface level
to this poem you know but Ithink ostensibly it's about

(01:28:59):
craft but then it does say saysomething larger about
spirituality that's my word youknow and uh I didn't want to
lose anyone but I thinkcreativity is the ultimate way
to bring divinity into thephysical realm I've said too
much sorry the act of creativityis maybe bringing collective
consciousness or even our higherconsciousness into the

(01:29:22):
perceptual realm am I justsaying the same thing over and
over again no I love it I loveit and I think that the I I saw
this thing by this guy do youknow the the author Percival
Everett who wrote soundsfamiliar no um he if I haven't
read the book but I think Jamesthe movie James wasn't there a

(01:29:43):
movie James um I don't know ifthey've made it into a movie
it's just uh yeah um he saidthat artists and you know
writers and we're likefacilitators and we we are like
tuned in tuning all the time totry to catch some idea or some

(01:30:05):
thought or something that wehave to express I'm not I'm not
paraphrasing this very well butthen you it absolutely requires
a reader a viewer an audience tointeract with it for it to
become the thing yes well that'salmost the observer effect right
if we're antennas and we're justfine-tuning something and
finding the frequency tocommunicate it to others uh you

(01:30:29):
know the observer effect rightdoes does a tree I mean and now
I'm come I'm making a mixedmetaphor here right but does a
tree fall yeah if nobody's thereto hear it did it really fall
it's the same thing as theobserver effect right that those
waves don't become particlesuntil Yeah.
Okay, go on.

(01:30:49):
Sorry.

SPEAKER_03 (01:30:51):
No, I mean it's just that that synthesis or that
alchemy or whatever happens whena certain you know, it's a
little bit like when you andwhen a flame catches uh when you
light a piece of paper orsomething and that spark catches
fire, it it requires those twothings, those two substances to

(01:31:14):
happen.
But the but the fire that thatcomes from it is a pure energy
of its own and it's completelyunique.
So how I interpret a novel or apainting or something is gonna
be totally different from howyou do or somebody else.
And um but I loved that ideathat we are facilitators and we

(01:31:35):
really need to communicatethings, but we don't have this
like divine plan.
We're just in tune to somethingthat uh that maybe uh could help
somebody else change theirperspective, uh see something
differently, feel somethingdifferently.
Um that to me is just sobeautiful and and it gets back

(01:31:58):
to that that human connection,which is another big theme of
the poem, which is just youknow, they're driven by this
curiosity to see what's outthere and say they go on this
epic journey and they meet andthey can connect with one
another even without thislanguage and read the history of
one another, and the it's it'sreally it's just a really neat

(01:32:20):
thing.
I I want to spend a lot moretime delving into this in my own
work.

SPEAKER_01 (01:32:25):
I just yeah, you're preaching to the choir because I
mean I try not I try to be verypregn pragmatic about craft, you
know, like as far as talent.
Oh, it's not god given, it'sit's something one devotes
oneself to and right and doesall those exercises and
perfects.
But I'm sorry, I'm an elitist atthe end of the day that we need

(01:32:46):
to give credit to artists andvisionaries and creatives of all
kinds, right?
There's all kinds of creative,creative acts all day, every
day.
But let's recognize it as yes,being a conduit, as you said, or
being an antenna, and it is nosmall thing, um, especially in
this fascist you know, milieuright now.
That's what we're protecting, isthe fact that we wouldn't evolve

(01:33:09):
without people that held up amirror to society and our own
humanity as an agent, right, inits evolution.
So call me an elitist, butthat's what we're trying to
protect here, in myunderstanding.
And uh, I don't see, and I'mgonna broaden it.
You know, it's not sculptors andor painters or authors, it's all
creatives, all innovators areharnessing and contributing it

(01:33:33):
back for our collectiveevolution.
So, anyway, I love what yousaid, and even in your prompts,
you wrote something about youknow, maybe true, I don't want
to put words in your mouth, butmaybe true inspiration is if
you're driven to draw or paintsomething or tell a story, it's
because someone out there needsto hear it.

SPEAKER_03 (01:33:51):
Yes, that I don't know who told me that.
I I really can't uh I I can'trecall.
It might have been.
Anyway, somebody told me thatand it really just because I was
like, what's the point?
I'm doing all this work.
Like, I just I don't know if anyI don't know if it's making a
difference for anybody.
But if you're compelled to doit, then it's because somebody

(01:34:16):
needs to see it.

SPEAKER_01 (01:34:17):
And then well, I'm gonna plug my book though,
because it can sound very kindof mystical and not empirical.
What's the opposite?
Rational, believe it or not, isthe opposite of empirical.
It sounds pretty woo-woo, but mybook makes a case for how
quantum mechanics supports this,epigenetics supports it, and I
kind of try to connect all thedots, you know, where it's not

(01:34:41):
that mystical.
If you are called upon to do it,it's because collective
intelligence knows what's needednext in our dialectic, and we
all have our individual gifts,right?
And we all have inspiration allday, every day to contribute
what's needed next from us,right?
Through our particular gifts.
So I didn't say it very well,but I have 375 pages, you know,

(01:35:04):
to make my case in that book.

SPEAKER_03 (01:35:06):
Yeah.
Yeah, I I really love thatbecause I I think then as
creators, the thing that I knowthat I struggle with, I know a
lot of other creators do, isjust that feeling of um, you
know, what's it all for?

SPEAKER_01 (01:35:22):
Especially right now, it's like, why bother?
Trust me, I have to renew myfaith all day, every day.
This podcast really helps, youknow, and interfacing with
people like you that get it.
I do go, why bother?
I mean, trust me, right?
Uh Virginia knows right afterthe election, and like never
thought I'd be here, but peoplesuck way more than I knew.

(01:35:42):
At least 50% of Americans,anyway, suck, you know, and
like, why bother?
I don't even have kids to leavea better planet to.
So for me to get up everymorning and continue, I I always
think of um Mother Teresa.
She says, Well, I didn't seeevidence of God for 20 years,
but I did the work.

(01:36:03):
Yeah.
So that's what faith is, right?
Is not giving up on humanity orlife or any of that.
Sorry if I went off the railsthere, but for me, I have to
just go, that's what faith is.
You do the work even if youdon't see the evidence for 20
years.

SPEAKER_03 (01:36:17):
And sometimes it's the work is just being open to
like, you know, again, likehaving the antenna up and um
like putting yourself insituations where that kind of
magic can happen.
Like the other day, my wife andI went to eat at this seafood
restaurant we totally love, anddown by the beach.

(01:36:39):
And we were there was a guysitting next to us by himself,
and he had this book with areally interesting title.
We both noticed it.
And um it I think it wassomething like uh things the
fortune teller said to me.
Um and he we noticed that he wasat the very end of it.
So we were like, Oh, we bothwant to ask him about this book,
but he's at the end, so let'swait till he finishes.

(01:37:01):
And then, you know, he finishedhis book and his meal, and he um
he got up to leave, and we westarted, we talked to him about
the book, and and it was justone of those like beautiful
human moments where we weren'ton our phones, we we he was
reading an actual book.
So it gave us something to totalk about.

(01:37:22):
We connected on that.
We started, we heard about hiswhole story about traveling in
Southeast Asia, which is whatthis book is about, and um, and
all the things that that taughthim about life and and and the
way he his whole worldview, andit was just one of those things
where you're like, wow, that wasso special and and so rare these

(01:37:43):
days.

SPEAKER_01 (01:37:43):
Well, do you does the word peak experience mean
anything to you?
No, Virginia loves when Imentioned Maslow, right,
Virginia?
Oh, yeah, because he's hierarchyhypnee.
Yeah, exactly.
Well, that's one of the ideas,these peak experiences.
So when you're aligned, or callit what you want, right?
When you're like you said, youhave no diversions or devices in
your hand, and you're in themoment, you're tapped into

(01:38:06):
synchronicity, right?
And so we've all had them.
I've done, I've said this on thepodcast, too, enough shrooms and
acid to know, you know, there'sway more going on here.
And uh, we all love those dayswhen we're not in a huge hurry,
right?
And I mean, the Nameless Princeis all about just going down
into the LA wash one day becausehe could.
We're not always we don't alwayshave the luxury of being in the

(01:38:28):
moment, but I do think that'swhen the magic happens, and
maybe when souls align, right?
So I don't think you imaginedit.
I think that's a real soulfulexperience that happened there,
and I would just call it a peakexperience, you know, because
yeah, and yeah, we should all bereceptive all day, every day.
Artists have, you know, how inthe creative pro I wanted to say

(01:38:48):
this a moment ago, by the way.
Uh, you kind of hinted thatuntil the patron or the observer
completes the circuit, yeah,right, that uh it's it's almost
like that tree hasn't fallen inthe woods because there's no one
there to hear it.
So I've always wanted to add astep to the creative process
that says, like, okay, but whatabout when you're done?

(01:39:11):
Does it collect dust under thebed?
Does it change one person's lifein a cornfield in Iowa?
You know, does it reach I don'tknow?
Does it go viral and change theworld?
What is that final step in thecreative process?

SPEAKER_03 (01:39:25):
Yeah, and and it does it ever end because if it's
if it just, you know, I lovethat completing the circuit.
I wrote that down because Ithink that's really um that's
really how it is.
You know, there's like thiscrackling energy when you have
something you made, and so manypeople just put it in the in the
trash or put it in the drawerfor a variety of reasons, right?

SPEAKER_01 (01:39:47):
Yeah, fear of reception, fear of falling short
of your own expectations.
You know, outcome is overrated,right?
But yeah, I think we're drivento share.
I do.

SPEAKER_03 (01:39:58):
Yeah, and these drawings were such a good lesson
for me about just you know, justdraw all the time.
Just I I drew every day,multiple times a day, and
there's there's just lots of baddrawings, lots of drawings that
I felt were were better thanothers, but I really started
removing the judgment.

(01:40:18):
And because I was drawing somuch, it didn't really matter.
It was just fluid, like thethere, the the flow was never
off.
So yeah, there's gonna be allkinds of stuff that comes out,
and stepping away from it wasstepping away from judgment was
one of the biggest things for meas an artist because I have
lived my life judging constantlymy work.

(01:40:41):
I think we all do that, and itsucks because it really kills I
think it really kills what youhave to say.
And I don't know if there'sanybody listening that that
could take that message toheart.
It's like, you know, just try tojust not judge yourself and just

(01:41:02):
draw what you love, draw whatyou feel, and do a lot of it,
like volume is huge because itbecame it's a language that
we've mostly stifled, and youcan't stifle it, you have to
speak in that language a lot tobecome fluent, you know?

SPEAKER_01 (01:41:20):
Yeah, um well, you're onto something for sure.
I mean, it's more than justbeing in the zone regularly and
uh having momentum, and you arereally onto something because I
think inspiration transcendstoo.
So the fact that you're tappinginto the zone, do you know what
I mean?
That transcends and it movespeople and touches people.
So on that note, I think I sawon your insta that you're making

(01:41:45):
a book of your writingsaccompanied by imagery.
What is not that there has to bean outcome, but I believe you
have a project in the works thatincorporates the artwork and
your writings?
Is that right?

SPEAKER_03 (01:41:57):
I do.
And and this is something that II don't know if you and I have
talked about over the years, butI've struggled a lot with this
idea of you know, if I make abook of drawings, how much does
it have to tell a linear storyversus being these abstract
journal type images?
And then does the writing thataccompanies that have to be

(01:42:20):
linear and direct?
So actually, you're one of thepeople that I really wanted to
talk about this with latelybecause I I don't know, I kind
of have a feeling of how theform, what the final outcome
should feel like and look like.
But um, I wrestle with thisbecause I'm like, oh, these are
all you know, quote unquoteunrelated drawings.

(01:42:41):
But of course, in in my mind,they all come from this direct
source, so they're very muchrelated.
And um and part of what I wantto talk about is that, but then
it's like I don't want to puttoo many words, you know, it's
like you don't want tooverexpose just a forward, you
know.

SPEAKER_01 (01:42:56):
I think some when you go to a gallery and they
force you to write a blurb,right?
Sometimes it's just art speak,gobbledygook, right?
For the for the patrons, youknow, and you just I actually
had a little art critiquegenerator, it was one of the
funniest things I've ever seenonline, but art critique
generator, and you just put likeone column is the juxtaposition,

(01:43:18):
and the next one of the illusoryflux, and then the next column
is like of the formal propertiesof, you know, like and uh I
think sometimes that isoverrated, but I could see a
forward explaining the nonlinearapproach to just consolidating
images, so it's ironic becausejust this morning I looked at
your Insta in preparation, andyou were it was a video, and you

(01:43:41):
were saying, Hey, I'm justlining up all my drawings on the
table here, kind of interestingto see how they relate.
And I wrote, Yeah, it's morethan an unexpected rhythm and
flow to the compositions, right?
How it leads the eye around itwas rhythm and flow, but it was
also like only by doing that doyou have ooh, that totally
breaks the rules and takes youinto this completely nonlinear

(01:44:04):
space.
Like if for no good reason atall, one of your dark shapes
leads you off the page or toanother panel.
Yeah, I think it's fascinatingto just trust our meaning
making, you know, the patron'sgonna attribute meaning, but
also randomness, like that iswhere the growth is when you get
into uncomfortable territory.
So maybe I'm encouraging you tojust use a nonlinear approach.

(01:44:26):
I'm sorry, any I every time Isee your drawings just laid out
randomly, it's like, holy crap,it tells a story that's way
beyond something a human braincould come up with, you know,
taking a linear approach.
That's the beauty of it, isn'tit?
That's the poetry of it, is thatit's it's almost like I don't
know, putting the cart beforethe horse instead of

(01:44:48):
manufacturing something to servean outcome, you're creating a
more suggest right, a more openexperience for the patron
because they get to project onit and project the meaning on
it.

SPEAKER_03 (01:45:01):
Yeah, and then and it's like by removing, and it's
been very, very hard for me justintellectually or logically or
whatever, to remove the thatpreconception that that you
always kind of approach art withat least I have my whole life,
like what am I gonna draw now?

(01:45:22):
Or I already have an idea ofwhat I'm gonna draw.
I've sketched it, I I there's aproblem I'm trying to solve,
there's a you know, a concept orwhatever.
And it's layer by layer, and Ithink the the subtractive
carving, getting back to whatyou were saying, is what allowed
me to feel so free.

(01:45:44):
There's like a trust and a faiththat you have to have, you know,
like you're just gonna kind ofyou have to jump and see if the
wings work.
Right.
Right.
Uh and I think that you know, ifyou do that, the the viewer will
those things will resonate.
Those those recurring symbols,those, you know, okay, there's a

(01:46:06):
man on a journey, and there'sthese, you know, a lot of it is,
you know, a deep exploration ofkind of shadow selves and and
things.
Um but I just released myself ofany plan.
It's beautiful.
And it's doing so, it kind ofyeah manifested.

SPEAKER_01 (01:46:26):
Yeah, it it it shows through, trust me, it transcends
that you're onto something isthe best way I can put it.
And um, it's pretty divine.
And uh yeah, it's it's powerful,it transcends um whatever you've
done.
So I do think you know, I we'reinterested in the parallels, you
know.

(01:46:46):
Whenever we talk about colorharmony, you know, oh, in music,
there's one, three, five,there's all these amazing
parallels between thedisciplines, but I think what
we're talking about would havevalue to a violin player, if
that makes sense.
So in that spirit, I just wantto say different strokes work
for different folks.
And in my um, what do you visualart?

(01:47:09):
It is not my chosen craft.
I have never gotten there, I'venever embraced, you know, it was
no regrets.
Like I told some great storiesat Disney.
I made a life for myself, I gotto travel, you know what I mean?
But I never had the delusionsthat it's my self-expression.
It was a craft and it was agreat career.
I was proud of what I put outinto the universe.

(01:47:30):
But in terms of really maturingmy relationship with any one
craft, it was never going to beillustration.
I joke, like, if somebody gaveme a bunch of oh yeah, it's an
avid, it's a what is it?
It's a vocation, not an avation.
Yeah, it's a vocation.
Yeah, but you know, I didn'tgive up on it.
I thought, God, if somebody gaveme a bunch of money tomorrow to

(01:47:51):
create a body of work for agallery show, actually, at one
point I thought it would have tobe abstract.
Completely well, conceptual forsure.
Conceptual, and whatever mediumwas demanded, whether it's video
or installation art or collage,multimedia, it would be
conceptually driven becausethat's how I most identify it.
I also thought I miss oilpainting, I'd have nowhere to do

(01:48:14):
it, I don't even have a garageright now.
So if somebody put me up in astudio, I would probably not
bring out my bag of tricksbecause that's old and tired,
right?
Figurative, figural, it wouldprobably be completely abstract.
I'd love to see that.
But I've kind of gotten to thepoint where my most mature
vehicle of expression is mywriting, it's not gonna be my

(01:48:36):
illustration.
So I envy you, I think it'sbeautiful work.
I think one day maybe I'llorderly mature that part of
myself, but right now it's thewriting.
So anyway, but I everything yousaid, like, ooh, yes, kind of
letting go of outcome andtrusting that balance between

(01:48:56):
having structure, but alsoletting it be free-flowing.
I've often said having anoutline is what allows the happy
accidents.
If I didn't know where I wasgoing with a piece, I would
probably beat my head against awall and it flows because I know
where I'm headed, or I reallyknow what the intent is, put it
that way.
The inspiration was strongenough where I know what the end
goal is to a degree, it stillevolves.

(01:49:18):
So it's a balance, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 (01:49:20):
It is a balance, and I I think about it in terms of
you know, if I if I ever had theopportunity to do a graphic
novel, like it would be amazingif I had dreamed about that for
I dreamed about it for like mywhole life, but it scares the
crap out of me because it itkind of means that I might have
to have a linear like how wouldI take my approach and make it

(01:49:47):
work?
Like, would I get would I beback in that same world of oh
I'm I'm making a product?
Yeah, how would I how would Inavigate that?
And um yeah, it's always been athing for me.
I mean, one of the things thatcoming full circle to Art Center
was Dave Makarski, I had anillustration class, like one of
my late, you know, late termthings.

(01:50:09):
And you know, of course, you wewere just going through the
motions, doing your sketches andyour concepts, and then you
know, doing a final.
And I I just hated I after atthe Art Center, I came to really
hate that process of making thequote unquote final because it
just felt like I was killing theenergy.
And and I said, you know, Ishowed him my sketches, and he's

(01:50:31):
like, Man, your sketches have somuch energy and they're so
gestural, and and I said, youknow, I love my sketches and I
hate my finals.
Like any final I've done, I hateit to this day.
And um and he said, Well, whydon't you just take your little
thumbnail and Xerox it, blow itup to 11 by 17, you know, paste

(01:50:56):
it onto a board and startpainting directly onto this
blown-up sketch.
And it was really life-changingfor me that that concept because
it allowed me to retain thatenergy.

SPEAKER_01 (01:51:10):
And Mukarski is a wise, wise man.
No, you you told that story inthe creativity panel, and then I
told Oh, yeah, no, I love it.
It's so because it's a parable,yeah.
You know, and I told my ownMakarski story, but I there's a
lot of wisdom in that becauseit's kind of symbolic of
retaining the initialinspiration throughout the hot

(01:51:32):
and cold creative process.
And so that's one one thing thatsaves people, true, because we
all deal with that, trust me, toa degree.
Like, ooh, I mean, a lot, a lotof people love the ideation
process, the conceptualizationprocess, that initial expression
of the inspiration, whether it'sin a thumbnail form or whatever,
and they effing hate renderingand they feel they've lost the

(01:51:55):
magic.
It is tedious.
I used to love rendering becauseit was meditative, yeah.
But it doesn't mean the piecesweren't stilted and stifled.
I just liked rendering, I wasn'tafraid of it.
But I guess what I would say isthe execution, you just always
have to keep in mind that it's acolder right part of the
creative process.
Dave Zaboski would say, youdon't go straight for the goal,

(01:52:18):
you stalk it, you go throughmore intellectual, more
intuitive, cotton cold as hecalls it.
But really, once people fullyunderstand the creative process,
then those romantic notionsdissolve a little bit.
That, and again, I had a veryyoung nephew that once said,
dude, because you know, I haveto promote books long after I
wrote them.
Yeah.

(01:52:38):
And I fear, ooh, do I even careabout this anymore?
Or, you know, is it really goingto speak to anyone?
And he said, if it was inspiredin the first place, that
transcends.
So you gotta have that faith.
So yeah, when you're renderingsomething, just have faith that
those strokes will always beunderlying the finish, you know.

SPEAKER_03 (01:52:58):
Yeah, but then you look at those, you know, those
artists that we studied, the youknow, the NC Wyath and the
singer sergeants, and you justlook at how much like gesture
and life they have when they'remaking their final things, and
you know that they went throughlike studies after studies after
studies, you know.

SPEAKER_01 (01:53:16):
Um, I admired always sorry, I admired my students
that would kind of resist, youknow, the very linear process.
I was teaching what we do inanimation.
You do a you know, you finalizeyour drawing, you finalize the
layout, then you do a valuestudy, then a color key and a
finish, and very linear, andpeople resisted it, and it was
just a tool, with the goalalways being eventually you're

(01:53:39):
just gonna do it intuitively,and you may skip a step or
whatever.
But once in your life, gothrough this linear process and
it'll become a tool on your toolbelt.
But I still secretly admiredpeople that kept it fun every
step of the way.
Whether it meant doing a looservalue study with markers,
whatever kept it fun for them.
God, my hat is off to you.

SPEAKER_03 (01:54:01):
Yeah, because you know that hot and cold, that
that's really what you learned.
And it was it was brutal, youknow.

SPEAKER_01 (01:54:07):
It's it's it's hard to survive that, but yeah,
that's the nature of art school,but okay, so we're gonna steer
it to a close, Brian.
I do think maybe there's a parttwo.
I would love to talk to you moreabout how to retain the freedom
that you've found while maybedoing a project that feels more
linear or like it's asking formore structure.
Let's keep talking about thatlater.

(01:54:29):
Yeah, that would be that wouldbe cool.
I'd love your thoughts on that.
Cool.
And I know you're busy, butmaybe there's a part two.
Any final words of wisdom youwould want to share with
listeners, whether about storyor the creative process or
anything to do with creativeexpression?

SPEAKER_03 (01:54:45):
Um, I think just that like you, you know, I I
think we I was talking with mywife about this, and you know,
we talk about the fact thatwe're, you know, like 48 now and
and how you know she's lamentsthe fact that she hasn't written
a novel yet or published anovel.
She's written two novels, butshe hasn't published yet.

(01:55:06):
And so there's certain thingsabout like living your life and
adversity too.
You know, it's the highs and thelows, it's the agony and the
ecstasy that informs what wemake and it informs the stories
we tell.
And we have to um have patienceand let these processes kind of
work over time, and then thosewill be the things that we draw

(01:55:28):
from and and or paint from orcompose from.
And we can't do it without thatlife and that living.
And so everybody wants to rush,and and I think it's just one of
those things, it's it's apainful lesson, but um, just
deeply deep connection andpresence in the life you're

(01:55:50):
living is gonna be everythingthat informs what you make and
the connections you make throughit.

SPEAKER_01 (01:55:56):
I think beautiful, absolutely.
I love that because sometimes umit's ego, right?
When we want to leave a legacy,and actually life is happening
now.
So if you think of it from theartist's lens, yeah, only life
experience informs the work, butalso you know, not everybody

(01:56:16):
needs to contribute throughtheir craft.
What about the legacy of justraising a family?
And do you know what I mean?
Like that's a legacy in and ofitself.
So I think everybody has todecide for themselves.
I do know, like my sister, youknow, has empty nest syndrome.
Once they're up and out of thenest, sometimes you do want to
tap back into your craft as as amode of expression, but also as

(01:56:40):
a contribution.
So I agree with everything yousaid, but I think also maybe
just some people are here tolive life, maybe not to use the
surrogate of uh reflecting backlife, you know, life's happening
now.
Yeah, exactly.
That's enough.
That's enough.
There is plenty.
Okay, Virginia, are you are youwith us?

SPEAKER_00 (01:57:01):
I am, and I was just gonna say that when you made the
comment, Nick, about how youknow there's people who are just
living life, the way the way Iwas thinking about it, and this
is the the counselor brain of methat was kicking in.
It's they're the witnesses tothe creation of everybody else.

SPEAKER_01 (01:57:16):
Wow, wow, yeah.
Well, I we're steering this to aclose.
We really are, but it sounds alittle bit like my friend Marie
Martine Bessot was convinced atone point, I'm here to support
artists.
Her whole mission and purposewas to support her musician
husband.
She's now divorced him and she'schanged her tune.

(01:57:39):
But I kind of like that idea,you know.
It take, like we said a milliontimes, uh, it takes a lot of
different threads to make up thetapestry of humanity.
And amen to all of it.
Was that kumbaya enough foreverybody?

SPEAKER_02 (01:57:51):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:57:53):
Anyway, well, thank you, Brian.
And I would love to do a parttwo if you ever have time.
I think we just kind ofaddressed the tip of an iceberg
here.

SPEAKER_03 (01:58:02):
Yeah, it sounds great.
Thank you so much for having me.
It's really been a pleasure.
Um, thank you, Virginia.
Thank you, Nick.

SPEAKER_01 (01:58:09):
Thank you for being here.
And to our listeners, rememberlife is story, and we can get
our hands in the clayindividually and collectively.
We can tell a new story.
See you next time.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

Betrayal Season 5

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The FLOW State with Artist Brian Thompson

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

Betrayal Season 5

All Episodes

The FLOW State with Artist Brian Thompson

Stuff You Should Know