The Medicine Walk with Alexandra Bourne

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:45):
Alexandra Bourne is a medicine woman, artist, and
storyteller, whose work bridgesthe ancient and contemporary
through soul, story, andceremony.
Her creative journey, ThePilgrimage to the Cradle of
Mankind, traces not only a pathacross sacred landscapes, but a
deep exploration of what itmeans to be human.

(01:05):
For ten years, she has traveledsolo in remote places,
completing a pilgrimage wherethe first heartbeats of humanity
once echoed in the lands ofAfrica.
On this journey, Alexandraexperienced art as both language
and medicine.
An invocation of color, form,and movement, became tools for
remembrance and healing.
Guided by music, writing, andthe teachings of elders and

(01:29):
medicine people, she hascultivated a practice that
honors rhythm, ritual, andintention as vehicles for
transformation.
Through her art andstorytelling, Alexandria invites
others into a shared ceremony ofawakening, one that celebrates
connection, humility, and theliving pulse of spirit that
unites us all.

(01:49):
In her own words, between story,artwork, and music, or any form
of creative work, we are able togenerate emotion and resonance
that sits behind the mask of egoand conditioning.
I truly believe having healthyand expansive dialogue can
create the best waves of changein a world that surely needs to
be uplifted in truth.

(02:10):
Amen.
Welcome, Alexandra Bourne.

SPEAKER_01 (02:14):
Thank you.
I'm happy to be here.

SPEAKER_00 (02:17):
Thank you so much.
Is there anything in the biothat I should correct?

SPEAKER_01 (02:21):
Uh no, that was pretty spot on.

SPEAKER_00 (02:23):
Sounded sounded like you.

SPEAKER_01 (02:24):
I liked it.

SPEAKER_00 (02:26):
Right on.
Well, again, thanks so much forbeing here.
Virginia, by the way, is ourlovely co-host and producer.
Welcome.

SPEAKER_03 (02:32):
Thank you.
I am here and getting my brainin tune.

SPEAKER_00 (02:38):
Yeah, we've we've had quite the week.
So um yeah, I think all of usare kind of decompressing.
Is Mercury in retrograde?
Anyone know?

SPEAKER_01 (02:46):
Oh, it's always in retrograde.

SPEAKER_00 (02:49):
Well, it feels like it in my life.
They say communication andtechnology suffers.
Oh, you had a little technicalglitch this morning, Virginia.

SPEAKER_04 (02:57):
I did, yeah.
Uh actually trying to geteverything up so we could do
today was I was just watchingthe the circle just spin.
And it was trying to put me intoa trance, I think.

SPEAKER_00 (03:07):
Oh, yeah, exactly.
It's a meditative trance.
It's exactly what you need.
See, the universe provides whenyou're receptive.
Synchronicity.
Okay, well, the way we'd like tostart, I think, as you know,
Alexandra, is um just with ageneral road question.
And we have been asking acertain question throughout this
season, but I wanted to tweak ita little bit just after learning

(03:30):
about you and being inspired byyou.
And uh may use this one uhmoving forward because I think
it's pretty universal and it'snot earth-shattering or
anything, but I just feel likeyou might have something to say
about it.
What, in your opinion, is therelationship between creativity
or creative expression andspirituality?

SPEAKER_01 (03:53):
It's a beautiful question.
Um yeah, I I I had a dabble withthis one a little bit along my
journey, uh, particularly when Iwas living off grid, um, when I
was trying to understand thespirituality behind, you know,
no external voices, just kind ofmy my voice and creator's voice.
And I think creativity is theexpression of spirituality.

(04:15):
You know, when I was when I wasoff grid and my food was covered
and my, you know, all my bareminimum, you know, bases of
survival were covered.
At the end of the day, I askedmyself what I would want to be
doing with my time and myenergy, and it was to create,
whether it was going out andplaying my guitar or whittling
some wood or you know, justdoing something with my hands

(04:35):
and my imagination.
Um and I think that that comesin the form of you know
different different forms ofexpression.
Um, and I and that includesstorytelling, you know, and and
the same with like the ancienttribes and how they use
storytelling as a form ofcreativity to inspire their
spiritual uh practices.
So I think it just embodies ituh in an entirety, you know.

SPEAKER_00 (04:59):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Beautiful.
Yeah, it's there's so much tosay about it.
I'm kind of looking forward tohearing how people express it.
And that's beautifully putbecause yeah, and one could say
creativity is the expression ofuh spirit, you know?
I they're almost inseparable, inmy opinion.
So, anyway, that was beautifullyput.
Thank you so much.

(05:19):
Uh, for listeners, I want toback up a little bit, and maybe
in your own words, you couldtell us, you know, uh how you
got to this point.
And I don't want to put words inyour mouth, but this um
pilgrimage, how it came about,and then your current endeavors,
your current pursuits.
So the best way, again, I did alot of reading, um, and uh, but
I'd love to hear it from you.

(05:41):
It seems like, and sorry, I'mlooking at my notes here.
Um you're starting to publish,and I did want some clarity on
this.
Uh, are you publishing it ininstallments, the initial essay,
The Art of Breaking Chains?
Is that something that's goingto you know, we're that we're
gonna get more of in the future,or was that a one-time post?

SPEAKER_01 (06:04):
Yeah, so the the Art of Breaking Chains was something
that I wrote uh along my journeyof the pilgrimage.
And um, what I had done is I hadI'd actually published that book
um a few years ago uh when itwas written.
And then I kind of took it uhoff of the publishing websites
um because I wanted to revisitit.

(06:25):
I think I gained a little bitmore uh wisdom along the way and
I wanted to kind of you knowfine-tune it a little bit more.
And then when I went to go andpublish it again, there was just
something that said inside ofme, you know, put it out there,
just put it out there for peopleto read, put it out there for,
you know, uh educationalpurposes.
And um, so I I put the first uhsection up on my website because

(06:47):
we're just kind of coming out ofthe cave.
Like I feel like I was in abear's cave for a while, you
know, just you know, brewing andand birthing this, this uh this
final piece of of thepilgrimage.
And because that was kind oflike a taster on the pilgrimage,
I thought, okay, well, this willbe a nice way to start gain
momentum on um some of theconcepts that I've learned along

(07:08):
the way.
So the first part that's on thewebsite is available to the
public.
And then I think every week I'mgonna post uh another section
because it's quite a collection,a series, and allow it to kind
of evolve itself.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (07:21):
And do they all include uh paintings?
That series of paintings is, youknow, obviously speaks for
itself.
It um tells a story completelyindependent of the prose.
Will each installment haveartwork with it as well?
I mean, no pressure.
I'm just curious.

SPEAKER_01 (07:36):
Yes, yes, it absolutely will.
Um, yeah.
So when I when I wrote thatinitially, that was it actually
was all the paintings were donefirst.
And then I got to look at thepaintings because that was the
you know invocation of feeling.
That was where I could put it,and I didn't know what words I
really wanted to capture yet.
And then when I put it onto thepaintings, you know, as an
artist, sometimes you you knowintend for a painting to go a
certain way and it has its owncourse.

(07:57):
Yeah, and that's where wherespirit comes in and holds the
paintbrush for you, and you'relike, okay, here we here we go,
man.
So yeah, so it was um it was thepaintings were done, and then
the the wording came afterwards,and then the wording has like
evolved over time as well, justbased on uh the evolution of my
of the wisdom and and and the umthe deeper, the deeper dives

(08:18):
into the psyche and into thespiritual practice.

SPEAKER_00 (08:20):
Yeah, well, they perfectly complement one
another, even in retrospect.
I think sometimes we do expressviscerally and then slowly.
I mean, I read things I'vewritten years before.
I mean, The Seeker, I have anovel out right now, and I I've
reread it and thought, well,God, I didn't see that level,
but I do now, because lifeexperience catches up, you know.
And uh that's the beauty ofstorytelling is that um, yeah, I

(08:44):
would say the universe worksthrough you, not to be too lofty
about it, but you know, thereare, you know, if you're human,
there's going to be many levelson which to relate to something.
And I often read my own worklater and realize, oh, okay,
that's what I was workingthrough, or that's what's
universal, that's of benefit tohumanity.
So I do get that.
When I read the I I keep sayingprose, the essay that

(09:06):
accompanied the paintings.
I thought, well, that is exactlywhat is being conveyed
viscerally through the imagery,right?
And I it makes sense that youhad some perspective over time
and were able to articulate itbetter.
Uh so I love, I think theycomplement one another
beautifully.
And yeah, I was just hopingthere would be more.
So thanks for confirming that.

(09:28):
Yeah, but maybe for again forlisteners, uh I initially didn't
catch that that was midwaythrough your journey in New
Zealand, I think, right?
Near Taraniki.
Um, that you were inspired to dothat series of paintings.
But maybe back up even more andtell us, because you did say in
the uh the Art of BreakingChains that you I don't want to

(09:49):
put words in your mouth, but youhad a little bit of an identity
crisis that inspired you tofirst go on.
I'm gonna call it a walkabout.
First go on your uh what is thebest word, journey?

SPEAKER_01 (10:00):
Your um walkabout, pilgrimage, odyssey.
I think it's just uh I call it amedicine walk.
Uh yes initially.
Um, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (10:11):
Yeah, what inspired you to first skip town and go on
this amazing walk?

SPEAKER_01 (10:17):
Um well initially I think I was just born
rebellious.
I think I just walked into thisworld with a bit of bit of fire
in me.
And I, you know, no one couldever tell me what to do, no one
could ever kind of put me in ain a box and and say this is
this is you know XYZ.
So I think I I had this sensethat there was something more to
the constructs, to the societalconditioning, to the you know,

(10:39):
the the lifestyle that thatwe're kind of exposed to in
Western culture.
And uh and unfortunately, mymother came from Poland, so I
was exposed to a bit of contrastof a younger age with going back
and forth between Canada toPoland, kind of seeing a
different way of of living.
So I was like, oh, there issomething more out there.
And then when I, you know, wentthrough you know the schooling

(11:00):
and everything, and I was like,okay, here's my here's my
freedom, you know, I grabbed mybackpack and I just jumped on a
plane with my sister and webackpacked Europe for a couple
months.
And I was like, okay, this isgreat.
But it was actually a lot of youknow tourist uh attraction kind
of traveling and you know,sightseeing and that kind of
stuff.
And I was like, oh, I'm justgetting like the tip of the
iceberg to what culture andcontrast is here.

SPEAKER_00 (11:22):
Um I'm sorry, how old were you at that point, the
backpacking trip?

SPEAKER_01 (11:25):
I think I was around 19 or 20 years old at that
point.
So that's like the initial theinitial thing that started the
the pilgrimage was justscratching the surface of of of
the world.
Right.
Um and then you know, going uhafterwards to to do some more
deeper dives.
I I started uh traveling afterthat and uh you know, mostly on

(11:47):
a whim, actually.
It was just kind of likesporadic, okay, let's choose
this country and go and do adeep dive.
You know, let's go to Spain andlive off grid for three months
with a 75-year lady, why not?
You know, and and do all thesekinds, let's go to Thailand and
go do some kickboxing, why not?
You know, and just starting tolike really go into these places
with the you know, withoutwithout the language barrier, or

(12:08):
with the language barrierrather, and with all these um,
you know, contrast andopposition is is our greatest
teacher for the for us and onthe journey.
So, and then you know, as weunraveled that, it was at the
beginning, it was just kind of acuriosity, and then it was like,
oh, I'm on a mission, you know.
Oh, this is this is more thanjust curiosity.

(12:29):
This is you know, the deep diveof understanding why I'm
existing, why I'm a human, whyI'm here.
Um, so it became to get a littlebit deeper as I went.

SPEAKER_00 (12:37):
And was there an aha where's there an aha moment
where you realized it was biggerthan just you know that itch to
travel, or did it kind of happenover time?

SPEAKER_01 (12:48):
Yeah, I think I think the aha moment, uh yeah, I
had many aha moments.
And it's actually it wasactually like uh you know, that
there was there was times whereI wanted to settle down and it
was almost like I was beingurged back onto the road.
It's like the alchemist.
It's like, you know, you're youyou think that you know that
where you want to be is exactlythere, and then all of a sudden

(13:10):
all these signs and symbols andthese polls start to come and
you're like no no no and the egowants to say no no no I'm happy
this is familiar, I'm good here.
But the heart is like, we've gotwe've got things to do.
And and so all and then if youdon't listen, you know, which is
me, I'm quite stubborn.
So if I don't listen to thecalls, usually they come with a
little bit of a a backhand fromspirit from spirit, you know, a

(13:31):
spiritual timeout, kick, kick tothe road, out you go.

SPEAKER_00 (13:34):
Yeah, I the way I put it is the universe speaks
louder and louder to get yourattention.
Yeah, the stakes get higher.
If you repeat a cycle, thestakes get higher and higher.
That's it.
That's it.
Well, I love that you obeyed it,you know what I mean, instead of
a lot of people would just fallback on ego and what's
comfortable.
So I love that you once youidentified the mission, you

(13:55):
know, that you um stuck to thered road.
Because I think you have a lotof wisdom to share now.
Um, do you mind share sharingjust some of the geographic
regions you visited or some ofthe cultures with whom you spent
time?

SPEAKER_01 (14:11):
Yeah, yeah.
So I so the original first solotrip that I did was uh to Spain
with this 75-year-old woman, um,where I was isolated in the
mountains for a few months.
Um, and that was you know reallyearly in my 20s.
So it was a it was quite ashock.
And then after that, I went toCroatia and I had a bit of a
scare, a bit of a dance with uhwith uh sex trafficking or or

(14:35):
something like it was more of atraumatic, it was a close call,
I say.
So it wasn't nothing happened,but it was a rescue mission,
something you'd probably see ina movie scene.
And you know, all of a suddenI'm coming back to Canada and I
was like, okay, cool.
There's this obstacle in theway, you know, there's a an
innocence, there's a naivety totraveling as a solo female uh in
the world.
So then I went into kickboxingand I was like, okay, let's

(14:56):
let's protect ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 (14:57):
Oh, in Canada, in Canada, you learned kickboxing?

SPEAKER_01 (15:00):
That's where I started, and then the next trip
took me to Thailand to uh liveand and kickbox at a gym for a
while.
And so I lived on side of thegym, you know, four hours a day,
six days a week training.
And yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (15:12):
Sorry, uh, I do want to hear, trust me, every country
you visited and every culture.
But just because you broughtthat up, I know one of the
things you had hoped to talkabout was the whole concept of
traveling alone as a female.
And to be honest, that's exactlywhere my mind went.
There's a lot of sex traffickingin this world, you know, and um
it's amazing that that's whatyou were confronted with.

(15:33):
Uh, I have friends that havetraveled alone, and you know,
they got mugged, and that wastheir wake-up call.
But that's pretty scary.
So um, good for you for learningkickboxing.
Do you want to talk about thechallenges of traveling alone as
a female a little more?
Or is it kind of that weadjusted that topic?
I it's got to have its ownunique challenges, I would
imagine.

SPEAKER_01 (15:54):
Yeah, yeah.
I think I think this is wherethe contrast of growing up in a
very sheltered society, um, andthen having that curiosity and
that zest, you know, I walkedwith a lot of, it was very
humbling, really.
It was walking without the toolsthat I needed and putting myself
into dangerous situations that Iwasn't educated on.
Um, impulsiveness, you know, I'myoung and you know, I'm excited,

(16:16):
and you know, there's there's uhan abundance of temptations in
the world that we can fall into.
So for me, it was um I was doingall these random extremes and
and you know, going intodifferent places.
And when I finally uh finallyhad these little like, you know,
these moments where it was closecall moments.
I started to see that okay, Ineed to, I need to be a little

(16:39):
bit more aware.
And then uh after Croatia, I waspretty shook.
Um and so when I came back, Irealized, you know, okay, do
some things to protect yourself,you know, don't let this
obstacle stop you or defeat youfrom from doing what you love to
do, but be smarter about it.
And martial arts taught me thatI wouldn't win the fight.
It was it was just as humbling.
It was, you know, getting rid ofthe entitlement, the ego behind,

(17:01):
like, well, I can punch thisdude in the face if they're
attacking me.
And and really, it's actuallyabout can you slow your breath
down enough to think logically?
Can you slow, can yourationalize the situation?
Can you diffuse a situation?
Can you be proactive in thissituation so that way you are
able to navigate the territoryyou're going into?
And especially, you know, in inEurope, it's one thing, but when

(17:23):
I started going into othercountries like Africa and stuff
like that, you know, your yourheightened sense of awareness
around your safety is is veryprominent, right?
And you need to um exercisecaution and just be aware of it.
Like you're gonna pick andchoose your corruption anywhere
you go.

SPEAKER_00 (17:38):
Right, right.
Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 (17:40):
I I was kind of wondering too, with that, um,
when you're talking aboutawareness and stuff, because I
know it's really easy,especially with how connected we
are with the internet thatthere's and now AI being
involved too.
Um did was there anything withthat to where something was was
presented one way?

(18:01):
And then once you were in thatsituation, you realized it was
basically, you know, like acatfishing type thing, where it
it showed as a safe as likepossibly a safe adventurous
thing.
But then when you got there,there were certain little things
that started going, this isn'taligning with what I initially
thought this was.

SPEAKER_01 (18:20):
Actually, that's a perfect question because that's
exactly what happened to me whenI went to Croatia.
So at the beginning of myjourney, um, because I was young
and just coming out of you knowcollege and things like that,
you know, financially, I waslike, How am I gonna travel?
So I used, you know, platformslike work exchange websites
where you know you work for yourfood and accommodation.
So you're you're minimizing yourexpenses along the along your

(18:41):
way, and which was wonderful.
Um, but I think we're sometimesvery too trusting um as human
beings.
And it's not uh it's not bad totrust people, but it's just a
reality check sometimes that youknow, not everybody comes with
pure intention.
And so uh when I went toCroatia, it was on uh a platform
that I used and there was anadvertisement to train some

(19:03):
horses in Croatia.
I was like, cool, this is great,you know.
And then when I got there, youknow, the ad was taking down,
nothing was lining up, you know,and my only saving grace was
that I bought a sim card at theairport.
Um, so I was able to make aphone call and I was able to
call for help when I actuallygot to this position because I
was in the middle of nowhere,you know, on a property that was
boarded with with uh you knowbarbed wire fences and gun signs

(19:25):
everywhere, and I'm locked inthis this place and I'm like,
oh, you know, so I I was able tomake a phone call and then you
know get get taken out of thatsituation.
But you know, you don't reallyknow how fast something
escalates until you're in it.
And you don't really, you kindof give the the red flags the
benefit of the doubt um becausewe're we're you know maybe a bit

(19:45):
more naive to it at that age.
So it definitely uh definitelyplayed a big factor in in that
journey.

SPEAKER_04 (19:53):
Yeah, thanks for sharing because yeah, I I I I do
think you know we do when we'reyounger, especially, we want to
to trust in and especiallyyou're saying like sites that
are known trusted sites andthinking well nothing should
happen here, and still there'sthat you know, small percentage
of vulnerability that somethingcould go totally different than

(20:17):
what you expect.
So uh thank you for sharing.

SPEAKER_00 (20:19):
You know, in the 90s I had uh uh you know, I'm in LA,
so I'm surrounded by performers,but both my roommates had been
cruise ship performers, singersand dancers, and there was a
whole circuit.
I mean, there were friends thatwere performing on cruise ships,
and then they would perform forroyalty in the far east and
pretty much disappear.
So, like, and that was in theearly 90s.

(20:41):
So I do agree.
I mean, I'm gonna ask you aboutthis.
I'm gonna sound really sexist,but I live near a lake, and
there's women jogging withheadphones on, completely
unaware of their surroundings atdusk.
Do you know what I mean?
And or even at nightfall.
And uh, so I have 22 nieces andnephews, and a lot of them are
pretty progressive.

(21:02):
And I made some comment aboutthose women, you know, like, oh
my god, be aware of yoursurroundings.
And I might have said the wordrape.
And my niece and her tender, Ithink she was in high school,
she said, Well, men get rapedtoo.
And I said, Well, yeah, if youcount prison rape, actually they
get raped more than women,truly, if you include those
statistics.

(21:22):
But you know, she was virtuesignaling and trying to empower
women in a way by saying it's auniversal, and I really
respected that, but I thought,well, I don't know, she's it's
we don't really have the luxury.
Let's talk about you know what Imean, the physical strength
factor and how people aresocialized.
And it just seemed a littlenaive to me.
Do you have anything to say tothat?
How do you empower girls andwomen and at the same time say

(21:46):
be vigilant?

SPEAKER_01 (21:47):
Yeah, no, absolutely.
Um actually, so I I after afterI've done years of training in
in martial arts and krav magahand everything like that, and
you know, I was training withgroups of men that were not shy
to punch me in the face.
I signed up for it, you know.
So I realized like thephysicality is like, okay,
actually, like I may I can bestrategic as a woman, you know,
and and I may get a couple goodshots in and things like that.

(22:11):
But the reality is, is you know,you're looking actually deeper
than just the safety, you'relooking at um constant
generational trauma that liveswithin our bodies.
So, you know, for women who arewho are, and I I use this
example when I used to teach uhat a community center classes
for girls for self-defense, andI would use this as an example.
I was like, if you feeluncomfortable, I was like, what

(22:31):
does it hurt to take oneheadphone out?
What does it hurt to just stepaside for a minute and let the
person who's walking behind youthat your that your body, your
intuition, your gut is sayingyou're heightened for it, they
could just be an everydayperson.
They don't have they don't haveto be predatory, but your body
is saying it's not feeling safe.
So do something to mitigate thescenario before it escalates,
right?
Right.
And and just step to the side orcall a friend and just tell them

(22:54):
your location all of a sudden,you know, like very small
strategic moves that we can doas women that offset the
physical difference, you know?
And and and that that was a bigthing for me because you know,
I'm not here to to make a man apredator or a woman a predator,
but I am here to call a spade aspade, you know, and and to
acknowledge that again, pureintentions don't always exist.

(23:16):
And as women, especially withour generational trauma and our
pain points, we carry aheightened sense because our
bodies don't feel safe.
And so trusting your intuitionis a big part of it, right?

SPEAKER_04 (23:28):
Yeah.
And I I was gonna say I love DogCenter that you shared that even
when you're in kickboxing, youknow, you signed up for it and
and you know, basically punchyou in the face.
So my um my spouse, he uh didyears of taekwondo, um, got up
to a black belt, and him and Iwould talk about that a lot
about because he would he wouldhave to spar against the

(23:50):
females, you know, because theydidn't want to just put women,
you know, the females withfemales and the and the males
with males.
And so I asked him about that.
I said, because it's always whenwe watch action movies too, like
you know, they always show likethese like you know, maybe,
maybe 120 pounds white womenlike kicking the butts of men
that you know are like easilylike you know, 150 to 200

(24:11):
pounds, right, in the movies.
And I'm like, that's so notreal, right?
I'm like, there was nobody inmartial arts when you were do
when you would go tocompetitions as far as that.
And he's like, no, he's like, Iactually used to hold back
slightly as a man because I knewthat when there was somebody who
was 90 pounds sitting acrossfrom me, male or female, I was
gonna clobber the heck out ofthem.
And I wanted them to at leastnot, you know, one round be

(24:35):
down, you know, to like makemake make it, you know, where we
could at least have some sparand learn from each other.
Well, he's like, Yeah, he'slike, but in a row fight, he's
like, nope, he's like, chances,probably not.
So I love I love that you sharedthat because I think sometimes
as well when we do go and takethose type of classes and forget

(24:57):
maybe the guys are holding back.

SPEAKER_00 (25:00):
Yeah, that's why I thought with my niece, she was
so she was in high school, Ishould let her off the hook.
But I thought, well, that'saspirational, but a little
dangerous, you know.
And so uh like you're saying,there's maybe almost a
romanticized version of it thatwe're seeing when we see women
kicking ass in this in cinema,it's aspirational.

(25:21):
But like let's acknowledge thatwe're like you said, um, what
was your way of putting it?
You want to call a spade aspade?
There's got to be a balancethere, you know.
Anyway, I didn't mean to spendso much time on that, but thank
you for that.
Uh, where did you go next?
How about that?

SPEAKER_01 (25:35):
Um, yeah, so after Thailand, I took a trip to Bali.
Like I was away for a fewmonths.
Um, and I just did some solotraveling through through
Southeast Asia and then uh andthen headed over into Europe to
see some friends.
And then that's kind of whenCOVID broke out and I had to go
back to Canada.
And then I was like, okay, cool.
Now I can't travel, you know,now I'm I'm isolated here.

(25:57):
So I kind of came up with some,I just thought to myself, you
know, if I'm gonna be, you know,forced to stay inside, forced to
be isolated, you know, I'm gonnado this somewhere really
creative.
I got a big country that I'mliving in.
So I took off, I took off to theYukon and I lived off grid in a
small, tiny home by myself.
I just brought a guitar with meand I took off for a few months

(26:18):
and and decided that I wasreally gonna just see what
isolation feels like if this isthe world we're we're living in.
And and it was interestingbecause up there, COVID wasn't
quite a big deal, right?
They they had one COVID case theentire time I was up there.
So it was kind of the and it wasinteresting to be able to take
you know all the spiritualpractice, all the different

(26:38):
opinions and external voices,and then just have my voice, you
know, just have my my voice withcreator, my voice with nature,
um, to really understand it.
And I bought my I brought bookswith me and all the things, but
I I really just wanted to knowwhat it meant to live from a
place that was if I walked, if Iwas here first, you know what I
mean?
If there was no other externalinfluence and I just got plucked

(27:01):
on this earth by myself, whatwould I do with my time?

SPEAKER_00 (27:03):
You know, you know that that goes back to the topic
of um creativity andspirituality, because there's
some maybe over-romanticizednotions that all true
inspiration comes from solitude.
That's letters to a young poet,right?
Rilke.
And yet it's the samemeditation, right?
Stilling the mind, finding thatstillness within the well-being,

(27:25):
and you know, quieting themental chatter is kind of the
goal of a lot of spiritualpractices, but it's also, if you
believe Rilky, right, where alltrue inspiration comes from
creatively.
So, what was the biggest thingyou learned in that isolation?

SPEAKER_01 (27:40):
That it's messy.
That it's messy work to goinside and and and quiet your
mind.
You know, it in my early 20s, Ihad done the off-grid thing and
I had a taste of it.
But when I really went in there,I was I was unwinding, you know,
all this trauma and all thisthis overlap.
And I was going into thegenerational trauma as well.
It wasn't just mine.

(28:01):
Like I was, you know, okay, I'vegot my childhood, but I also
have all the memory and the DNAof my ancestors that I'm
carrying with me.
So how do I unpack this?
And to get from the head, which,you know, for me, I'm I'm very
stubborn and my ego was quitestrong.
And so it was really just to getin behind it and be like, okay,
I see that you're strong.
I see that you're strong becauseyou, you know, you protected me

(28:23):
and all these things.
Let's let's let's have a let'shave a dialogue, let's have a
conversation about why we'redoing this.
So it was actually about wasn'tabout trying to quiet the mind.
It was actually an invitation tohave dialogue with it to unravel
it better.
Um, so I could get to the heartspace again.
And it was this conversationbetween the mind and the heart
that were that we're going backand forth.
And then knowing when, you know,if it gets too messy, go for a

(28:45):
walk in the woods, go and go andground yourself, go and have a
reset.
Um, because it's a deep dive,it's a lot of work, and it's
it's not for the faint of hard,and it's not not easy, it's not
easy to do on your own.

SPEAKER_00 (28:56):
Well, but that I mean, I like how you put it that
it's not about quieting themind, it's about opening up a
conversation, right?
Because I think it's normal.
I'll just give one example.
I had a friend, I keep goingback to the 90s, I don't know
why, but we went hiking inYosemite, you know, and it's
definitely not the Serengeti,it's just Yosemite.
But literally just the elevationand the fresh air.

(29:18):
She had been through a divorcerecently, and just being in
nature, stripped of you know,all the stimuli, she broke down
and all the toxins came up, ifthat makes sense.
And um, I think it's normal,right, when you isolate or when
you get back to nature for allthe things you've kind of become
habituated to to be suddenly,you know, I don't know, come out

(29:44):
because uh because of theminimalism.
I don't know if that makessense, but I I like the idea
that you started a conversationinstead of um just trying to uh
shove those thoughts down.
I'm guessing, you know, theintergenerational trauma or even
you know your personal demons,call them what you want, that
you were tempted to just uhsilence them, you know, but then

(30:08):
you understood, no, no, no, thisis a dialogue here.

SPEAKER_01 (30:11):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And you know, at first I alwaysexplain this as like, you know,
at first it might be a part ofyourself that's like your heart
is maybe knocking on the door tothe mind, being like, Can we
talk?
You know, at the beginning, andthen eventually it becomes this
like little you call it yourinner child, your wounded child,
whatever it is, the part of youthat is now holding a box of
matches and it's like yourlittle arsonist ready to burn

(30:32):
the building down.
It's like, no, you're nothearing my knock.
So now I'm gonna light thisthing on fire.
You know, now you are gonnalisten to me because your
intention was to understand it,so you're gonna get what you've
asked for, you know, and now youhave to level up, be strong
enough.
Enough to receive what you'reabout to ask for because the
only way through, like the onlyway to get through the fire is
to go into it.

SPEAKER_00 (30:51):
Oh, I love that.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (30:52):
Alchemize it, right?

SPEAKER_00 (30:53):
That's yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 (30:54):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (30:55):
Yeah, that was in the essay that I read on your
website.

SPEAKER_02 (30:59):
Um Vella.

SPEAKER_00 (31:00):
Hey, that leads to another question I had.
What is the name of the website?
Um Lupa Vella.
Yeah, lupa vella.
And I, of course, Googled that.
And depending on whichLatin-based language you go
with, it's got several potentialmeanings.
Do you want to let the cat outof the bag and reveal the
intention?
Because they all made sense.

(31:20):
Every interpretation I found ofthose two words in different
languages, it kind of allworked.

SPEAKER_02 (31:27):
Very cool.

SPEAKER_00 (31:28):
What does it mean to you?
Well, just um, I think the ideaof she wolf, but also veil veil
and magnifier.
Those words came up a lot.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (31:38):
Oh, I like that.
Yeah.
So when I originally was tryingto figure out a name for because
I thought, you know, thepilgrimage is one thing, but the
the collective that I'm I'mactually working on is bigger
than the pilgrimage and it hasto, it's going to evolve itself.
So I thought of something thatwas going to be um that was
going to resonate with kind ofthe energy that I've been um
trying to captivate over theyears.

(31:59):
And a lot of it has to do with,you know, being the wild woman,
being the wild wolf woman andgoing on this voyage, going on
this, this, this odyssey ofunderstanding.
And so um I chose Lupa Vella uhbecause it's the she-wolf who
sails the seas.
It's the one that goes out, thewild woman that goes out and
just finds, you know, parts ofher psyche like collecting

(32:20):
pieces of my soul to try andembody what you know what it
means to actually be a woman,what it means to to exist, what
it means to cohabitate inhumanity.
And uh yeah, and I'm just a wildcard at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_00 (32:34):
Well, speaking of the bigger picture, and I
believe there's a book um aboutyour travels on the horizon.
Um, I want to understand thecollective a little more because
I believe, isn't that how youmet our mutual friend Angela?
Uh doing a mural for ProcyonWildlife.
Is that how you met?

SPEAKER_01 (32:52):
Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 (32:53):
Yeah.
So the collective, uh explainwhat what the mission is of the
collective a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 (33:00):
Yeah, so the the collective is about merging um
creativity and expression withthe spiritual practice and
really finding the the the waythat it can uh alter changes in
humanity or inspire humanity toto come back to truth, right?
I feel like it's it's actually areturning uh and a remembrance
and a and you know, and andcoming home to ourselves and uh

(33:23):
creative expression, you know,words or paintings or music
invokes the feelings ofsomething that we all I think
inherently know.
Um it speaks to the moralcompass, but we have so much um
baggage or so many walls thathave been built around it, or so
much conditioning and constructthat we're having a hard time
navigating it.

(33:44):
And so, and I did the samething, you know, when I first
started my artwork, I was goingaround Europe and I was painting
and I was doing these things,but I was so unfulfilled because
I was only meeting the physicalmaterialistic need of doing this
work.
And I was like, no, my artwork'smore than that.
And so when I came back toCanada, that's when I was like,
okay, what are you passionateabout?
You know, and wildlife was ahuge part of my my journey.

(34:04):
And so I was like, okay, let'slet's let's approach Proceon and
let's see if we can collaborate.
And so we did this this wildlifemural for them for like an
educational uh trailer for whenkids and people come out and
they can kind of walk throughit.
And we had all the volunteersput their handprints on the
pathway of this mural, and itwas so wholesome and so
beautiful.
And that's where I met Angela,and uh, and we were like kindred

(34:26):
souls.
She's she she became we huggedimmediately, she became an
instant friend.
Yeah, she's lovely.
And then her and I are doingsome collaborations as well.
So it's it's evolving itself.
It's not just it's recognizingthat it's not just me, even
though maybe I'm the one whostarted it and planted the seed
on my journey.
It's a collective of experienceswith different souls, it's a
collective of collaborations andit's a collective of artists.

(34:48):
And and yeah, see how it unfoldsitself.

SPEAKER_00 (34:51):
Cool.
Yeah, there's perfect transitionbecause I want to ask about
interconnectivity, and I'll bemore specific in a second.
But of course he fell in lovewith Angela.
I'm just gonna give her a shoutshout out.

SPEAKER_01 (35:01):
Uh yes, please do.

SPEAKER_00 (35:02):
Yeah, she's just my favorite human being at this
point.
Um, yeah, and I see how youwould click with her a hundred
percent.
She's been so supportive of ourpodcast, she's been on twice, by
the way, and just as good as itgets in terms of being a fellow
artist and a fellow storyteller,but more importantly, a fellow
human, you know.

(35:22):
And um, she just gets it.
She does.
I'm so glad that she hooked usup.
Um, but I wanted to go a littlefurther down the
interconnectivity role becauseyes, your collective sounds like
it's just all about the communalexperience and uh creating art
together.
And so it just let leads to oneof the questions I had written
down, which is what did youlearn about interconnectivity on

(35:45):
your pilgrimage?
A, between cultures and peoples,meaning, right?
You see a lot of culturalrelativity, I'm sure, but
there's got to be universals aswell.
So, what did you learn aboutinterconnectivity between
cultures, but also between manand nature?
Because your work is largelyabout nature.

SPEAKER_01 (36:07):
Yeah, this this is uh it's it's been an interesting
uh one because there's a lot ofoverlap in cultures and
spirituality and differentreligious practices.
And it's interesting to watchthe the overlap and and the and
and and a bit of the contrasttoo, but a lot of it actually
speaks to a lot of similarities.
Um and for me, you know,listening to elders and

(36:27):
listening to ancient wisdom, youknow, all they say to me is just
to go and sit into nature, youknow, go and sit with nature.

SPEAKER_00 (36:34):
Like we love to split, we split hairs and we
start wars over tenets that areactually saying the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 (36:40):
Yeah, exactly.
And it and you know, it's it'sthis it's this interesting thing
that I think you you know, Iactually was looking at your
your book, The Seeker, and kindof getting an idea for it.
And it's the same thing whereyou know, you go out and people
thought for my pilgrimage that Iwas running away from all the
things.
And I and in truth, I was.
And the thing is you can't runaway from the thing from the
energy you're already embodyingbecause that's just gonna mirror

(37:01):
back to you, doesn't matterwhere you go to.

SPEAKER_00 (37:03):
You take the reality you take yourself with you when
you get out of dog when you getout of dodge.

SPEAKER_01 (37:07):
Yeah, I've heard that a few times lately.
Oh my goodness.
Um, but yeah, and it wasactually that I was running into
myself.
I wasn't running away, and maybeat first I was, but I was
running into something becausethe environment was teaching me
the different landscapes, thedifferent energies of land and
nature in different areas, theywere all communicating to me.
And I was learning the languageof it, and I was inspired by

(37:31):
certain people, but I also, youknow, had to understand through
the unraveling of my ego, allthe work that everybody else is
also doing and how we'remirroring each other and how
we're we're having this dance,you know.
And sometimes the dance is notconscious, right?
And so when you become moreconscious of it, you're actually
able to dance with it betterbecause you're you're able to
kind of move the energy with it,um, as opposed to just letting

(37:54):
you know shadow work clash andall that kind of stuff.
So it was you're learning fromnature and you're learning from
people.
And if you can see them all as ateacher, it's your it's your
greatest victory.
You know, no one is out to getyou.
Everybody is a teacher.

SPEAKER_00 (38:07):
Yeah, you sound a little bit like me.
I'm more interested in thecommon ground or in the
universals than the disparity,you know.
But I think when you see aglaring, you know, cultural
value that's so glaringlycontrasts that of I don't know,
Western European Judeo-Christianculture, you're tempted to
really dig in the dirt anddiagnose, but actually it's more

(38:28):
empowering to look at um theshared humanity, I would say,
and you know, the universals andthe human conditions.
So you sound like you're alittle bit more uh you know, uh
of that mindset.
But I wanted to go back a littlebit, you know.
I have 22 nieces and nephews,and some of them are
globetrotters, you know, andthey've uh found a way to see

(38:49):
the world, and um, it's reallybeautiful.
But the reason I asked what yourinitial impetus was, because I
think when you painted thatseries of paintings, you were
16.
Is that true?

SPEAKER_01 (39:00):
I thought I the original one.
The original one that's on thethe beginning was painted at 16,
and then the series that cameout of that was because I
revisited the her her thefeeling of that painting when I
was in in New Zealand.
Oh god.
Um and then the the rest of thepaintings kind of float out of
that one, but that was theinitial thought.
That was the initial the initialenergy, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (39:20):
Yeah, well, you spoke a little bit about I don't
want to put words in your mouth,but you know, smelling the call
of the wild and feeling feelinga little dissatisfied or
disillusioned with life as itstood at 16.
And so the the only reason Iwant to say this is it might be
a value to some listeners, andyou know, I think we are kindred
spirits.
A lot of the people that land onour podcast tend to be kindred

(39:41):
spirits.
And so what I heard you sayinitially was, you're just a
free thinker, you know.
I never bought socialization,hook, line, and sinker.
I always saw, right, saw outsidethe box, maybe a rubble without
a cause, a lot of the qualitiesyou described in yourself.
But you know, when my nephewfirst went to Nepal, it was
around the time of theearthquake, he had just been

(40:01):
through a breakup.
And so I'm the one feeling formy sister, right?
Because her child was leavingthe nest, you know, and kind of
be a and so I did kind of pickhis brain.
We had one coffee, and I I justgently, gently suggested the
idea.
Because you know, the alchemistthey do come home in the end,
right?
All the hero's journeys, yourealize everything I ever needed

(40:23):
was in my own backyard aftersearching far and wide.
That's what the seeker is, aswell.
By the way, it's just you know,yeah, you you learn the lessons,
and then you realize now I cantransform my immediate
surroundings through thosegoggles or whatever.
It's it's a similar thing, but Idon't know.
I just felt like he wasdisillusioned and his heart was
broken, frankly.

(40:43):
So I I had written at that pointa lot about searching far and
wide because your worldview isso um dis you're so
disillusioned.
And no, he wasn't having it.
He was like, No, I'm just sickof suburbia because he lived in
Santa Clarita.
So that goes back to when youdon't buy the status quo, when

(41:04):
you know human potential is somuch greater than the trappings
we've fallen into, you know,that that's a wonderful thing
for the rest of us.
So I love that you were runningtowards something and not away
from something.
But I just gently wanted to saythat in your case, it sounds
like those of us that findourselves dissatisfied, and
again, don't want to put wordsin your mouth, but you have a

(41:25):
maybe identity crisis or anexistential crisis, and you feel
like there's more, or I'm meantfor more.
I think those that are meant forgreatness feel that fire, if
that makes sense, to go out andseek.
And you only came into yourgreatness by doing it.
Is that fair to say?
You have more to bring back, youhave more to bring more wisdom

(41:47):
to share with the rest of usnow.

SPEAKER_01 (41:49):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I well, I think a large part ofthat is that you know, first to
like if you want to becomegreat, you first have to
unbecome what you think you are.
Right.
And that's the hardest lessonthat anyone has to learn because
you know, you're you're you'reum born into an illusion.
You're born into the illusion ofthis is how the world is, this
is A plus B equals C.
It's it's an equation, and it'snot that's not an equation.

(42:11):
The actual truth behind it isthat we're limitless and that we
have, you know, this level ofexpansive um capabilities that
can actually create our ownreality.
But we're not taught that,right?
That's that's that's we'reactually trying to that's it's a
threat to the system if we if weexpose these kinds of truths.
And that's when you'reunbecoming these things, the

(42:31):
amount of trauma or pressure oror pushback on doing this, it
oftentimes is what stops youfrom getting there because it's
heavy, right?
And so it's where these kinds ofconversations that we're
starting to have, and this thiskind of uh, you know, this level
of awakening that we're startingto experience in in our culture
is because you know the worldhas gone so far to the other

(42:52):
side that something needs toshift, something needs to alter.
Yeah, I think a lot of youngergenerations are feeling it now,
you know.

SPEAKER_00 (42:58):
Yeah, yeah.
Growing pains are reallyuncomfortable.
So, you know, it's it's a scarymoment, but it does signal
change.
And um do you does the termdream spell illusion mean
anything to you?

SPEAKER_01 (43:11):
Um, not not not too much, not too much.
I think dreams dream spellillusion, is that what you're
doing?

SPEAKER_00 (43:16):
Yeah, well, D Pak Chopra talks about it, it's a
kind of Native American concept,but it's exactly what you're
saying.
Like you can see beyond the veilto the metaphysical truth if you
choose to, but we're socializedto keep the veil intact.
And there's, you know, that hasso many implications.
But just kind of seeing beyondthe status quo at what's really
going on here, you know, and Ithink it has been a steady arc,

(43:38):
you know, if you go back in timeand the whole new age movement,
which I despise that term tobegin with, but I feel like it's
latching on in the mainstream alittle more every day.
And I think you're absolutelyright that things are coming to
a head because you have peopleresisting the march toward human
potential at all costs anddigging their heels in, you
know, patriarchy and capitalismand imperialism and all these

(44:03):
societal ills that are no longerworking and haven't for
centuries.
You know, there's peoplestaunchly trying to protect
them.
But I do think the generalmarch, I don't know if I'm
making any sense, but is towardwhat you're saying, which is
seeing beyond the constructs andthe conceptualizations that
don't serve us anymore.

SPEAKER_01 (44:20):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And I think a big part of thatis that sometimes, you know,
when you get to that point whereyou're so dissatisfied with with
the the mediocre, the mediocracyof life and you're searching for
something more, oftentimes theanger of the victimhood of of
your circumstance kind of kicksin.
And that's one of the bigger,yeah, right.
And that's like the bigger pieceto work through because you have

(44:42):
to realize that the angerdoesn't mean, you know, complete
retaliation.
Like you, you're what you'redoing to your embodiment of the
of the truth is yourretaliation.
But I think what's what happensis we get so angry at the system
that we have this like lash backat the system, which is actually
feeding the same beast that putus in the same place that we're

(45:02):
sitting in, right?

SPEAKER_00 (45:03):
You know, so I don't know if if it's a similar
conversation, but you know, thedifference between Martin Luther
King and Malcolm X.
And uh but I do say amen to allof it.
I'm not a militant activist inany way.
I like to think my artworkspeaks for itself and you know,
my example speaks for itself,but exactly sometimes it doesn't
feel like enough, trust me.
And I wish I had I was a littlemore militant or that I had that

(45:27):
chip, but it's not what I'm herefor.
So I just say amen to thosemilitant activists.
You know what I mean?
We all have a gift and we're allmeant to contribute it back to
the collective uh in thetapestry that is humanity.
So you know, I I don't havethat.
Yeah, it's just the way I Imean, I don't think I don't
know.
I don't think uh some of thethings that are going on right

(45:48):
now are okay by any means.
I don't know, like politicalassassinations, but I do think
uh amen to whatever your giftsare, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 (45:58):
Yeah, your your freedom to to vocalize it and to
express.
Yeah, that there's a there's apower in that and the gentle
influence of embodying what youwhat you believe of yourself to
be.
I think that's that's a power initself.
Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 (46:11):
I feel like this goes back to the nature
question.
Because you've been alone withyour thoughts in isolation, you
have spent time in nature.
Your artwork is reallybeautiful, by the way.
I I love thank you.
Yeah, I love the depictions thatalmost use maybe indigenous
tribal motifs and somehow thedecorative quality is it's like

(46:33):
looking at a mandala.
It kind of centers you your useof decor, if that makes sense.
So I like the really iconic,almost regional folk art pieces.
Um, what does nature have toteach us about everything we're
just talking about, like thesesocietal ills, if you if you see
it that way?
What can we learn from natureabout how to how to get along as

(46:54):
humans, dear lord?

SPEAKER_01 (46:55):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I mean, nature isn'tforced, right?
And that's the biggest thing.
We we're we we tend to hold to alot of control and force.
Um, and that I think seems to beone of the most destructive
powers uh in the world, becauseyou know, a flower isn't told
that it has to grow a certainway, a tree isn't told it has to
grow a certain way.
And I used to be ahorticulturist and into

(47:16):
landscaping as well.
So, and I had a lot ofconfliction with that because
eventually I'm sitting back andI'm like, what am I trying to do
to manipulate nature?
Well, she knows what she'sdoing.
Wow, you know what I mean?
She has the ability to create.
So what I'm actually doing isthinking that because it doesn't
look uh, you know, uh aestheticor something, or it doesn't it's
not appealing because it's notperfectly proportioned into a
circular shrub, you know, likeyou know, and that's that's part

(47:40):
of the conditioning too.
So unraveling that reflection,you know, when nature when I was
working with nature, being like,actually, my soul is wild and
free.
And when I started to embodythat more, I had less of a
desire to want to go and prune atree.
Well, you know, I had less of adesire to want to tamper with
nature because that's what shewas trying to teach me that
whole time.

SPEAKER_00 (47:57):
Beautiful.
Man, you deliver.
That was I never would haveexpected that.
That's great, you know.
But I think in design and inart, right, we talk about um
variants within order, you know,organization and chaos.
These are you know whatdesigners think about.
And I'm not about to definebeauty, right, or even art, but

(48:18):
I think we respond to symmetryin nature, if that makes sense.
We respond, you know, that's howsacred geometry came about.
And I think every organism hasthat fascinating balance between
bilateral symmetry, for example,and then variance.
So I love that what we can learnfrom nature is that we do have

(48:39):
the goods, maybe in our DNA,maybe not, but to become what
we're meant to become, and youjust gotta maybe surrender a
little bit instead of trying tomanipulate the outcome all the
time.
Is that related at all to whatyou said?

SPEAKER_01 (48:52):
It's it's it is, it's the hardest part.
It's the surrender piece becauseyou know, you're your whole
life, you're and that's theembodiment of actually being
safe in uh in the presence ofcreation itself, right?
Whatever you call it, whateverreligious, you know, God, you
know, spirit, creator.
I like using creator becauseit's you know, you know, the
indigenous roots speak ofcreator.

(49:13):
Um, but it's really thesurrendering into that
everything is going to be howit's going to be.
And you actually can create morestress and more turmoil in your
life by trying to manipulate andcontrol it.
Uh, and it's gonna try andredirect you, right?
That's what it's gonna try anddo because you know you're going
against the effortless way,you're going against the
woo-way, the force, you know, ofnature.

SPEAKER_00 (49:33):
Yeah.
And within reason, I I've I'mnot gonna remember where I read
this, but it's been said thatum, you know, I would pray that
things come to pass just as theyare.
And it's not complacency, right?
It's not kind of throwing yourhands in the air, but there's
some wisdom in that.
I would pray that things come topass just as they are.

(49:53):
And amen.
I like that word, amen, becauseuniversal intelligence does know
what it's doing, it'suncomfortable, you know, we
don't understand it.
We understand the tip of aniceberg, but sometimes we have
to trust that the universe, youknow what I mean, knows how to
maintain balance.
Our bodies know how to maintainhomeostasis, and it's really
tough.
And I guess that's what the wordfaith means.

SPEAKER_01 (50:16):
Yeah, yeah, and it's much it's easier to say it, you
know, than to practice it.

SPEAKER_00 (50:21):
It's true, it's true, but it's often ego when we
want to control things.
Anyway, no, I think there's abalance.
We do need to dig in the dirt,we need to diagnose, we need to
discern, right?
I think it's really trendy to touh seek non, you know, to pursue
non-judgment, but maybe thebalance is just understand
discernment is there for oursurvival, and so it's okay to

(50:43):
judge if it's under the guise ofdiscernment.
I think we're all kind ofstruggling with all with that.

SPEAKER_01 (50:48):
Yeah, it's a tool in your belt.

SPEAKER_00 (50:50):
Right.
I love that.
Sorry if I'm speaking in reallygeneral terms here.
Virginia, I feel like you havesomething to say.

SPEAKER_03 (50:57):
Um, I have been listening, and everything you
guys have already pretty muchhit on everything, so I think
I'd be repeating myself.

SPEAKER_04 (51:04):
But it does the the one part, you know, that I'd
probably add to that is thatfrom what I was taken away from
it, it goes to like what I teacha lot when I sit with clients,
is um instead of going out andpursuing and trying to find
meaning, is making meaning.
So it kind of goes back to thewhole alchemist thing that when

(51:26):
you you know, after you've goneon this journey, you come home,
right?
And you realize the everythingyou need was in your backyard.
It's it's now you have a betterlens to take the c so your
cognition can kick in and seehow the pieces that already have
been around you, how to put themtogether to make the meaning in
your life and therefore thepurpose that's attached to it.

SPEAKER_00 (51:50):
Wow.
Beautiful.

SPEAKER_04 (51:51):
Beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 (51:51):
Yeah, and that speaks to your hero, Frankel, as
well, right?
Well, does he distinguishbetween meaning making, which is
arguably a human impulse, right,to connect dots and make
meaning?
So assigning meaning or creatingmeaning, you like you.
I love you gave me the visual oftaking all the elements around
you and arranging them in ameaningful way, rather than

(52:12):
going out and seeking themeaning right outside of
yourself.

SPEAKER_04 (52:16):
And and that that is actually um one of the
foundational pillars of logotherapy that is through Victor
Frankel, um, is is that conceptthat it's we have arranging
rather than seeking newcircumstances and conditions.
Exactly.
And I typically use thekaleidoscope a lot of the time.
So that's where my narrativeside comes in when I'm in in

(52:38):
therapy to explain that topeople that we're all handed a
kaleidoscope and it has the samecolor shards in it.
And how we turn it is how we'regonna see the world.

SPEAKER_02 (52:49):
Wow.

SPEAKER_04 (52:49):
And so it's learning how to interpret what those what
those different colored shardsare through our specific
kaleidoscope to then assign thatmeaning and then create the
purpose.

SPEAKER_00 (53:01):
I love it.

SPEAKER_01 (53:02):
Amazing.

SPEAKER_00 (53:04):
Wow, we are having a very stimulating conversation.
I do.
We so look forward to thispodcast because um, I don't
know, my back's been out for twoweeks, so I've been as close as
I ever get to depressed.
But this enlivens me to you knowrealize there are some pretty
cool people out there in theworld and um that we're kindred

(53:24):
spirits, and um yeah, don'tworry, I sprained my ankle two
weeks ago, so I've also been outfor a couple weeks.

SPEAKER_01 (53:31):
I call them the spiritual timeouts.

SPEAKER_00 (53:33):
Absolutely.
Well, exactly.
No, I mean, my back has beentelling me don't even do your
stretches that you normally do,like just drool on the couch.
Sometimes you do just have todrool on the couch.
Okay, but no, I mean I Ijokingly say, like, I can't even
sit up and meditate.
I know I need to, but my back istelling me do not sit.
So what what should I do?

(53:54):
Alexandra, what should I do?

SPEAKER_01 (53:56):
Lay down to meditate.

SPEAKER_00 (53:58):
Well, there is that.
Should I do that?
No, I have been quieting my mindin different ways, but yes, I
can totally meditate on my back.
You're right.
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (54:08):
Well, I mean, I think it's just sometimes it's
uh it's telling you that we wehold so tightly to a conformed
practice at times where that youhave to still have flexibility,
even in you know, the like thepractice that you're you're
embodying now.
And you know, the other day Iwent to go and do all the I was
going for a kickboxing session.
I was gonna go rock climbing, Iwas gonna do all these things,
and then I'm walking down thestairs and I miss the last step

(54:30):
on the stairs, and I roll myankle, and I'm like, well, it
looks like I'm not goingkickboxing anymore.
But it was, you know, the theirony of that is you missed the
last step.
You weren't meant to, youweren't listening.
Oh my god, that's so symbolic.

SPEAKER_00 (54:42):
It's got it's symbolic.
Virginia, you're how long hasyour ankle been out, Virginia?
Are you on the are you are you?

SPEAKER_04 (54:50):
Oh gosh, I'm like three at least three months of
not going four months in.
I know I have another monthwhere I'm so tired of tennis
shoes.
Support of athletic, you know,insold shoes.
Um yeah, it looks really greatwhen I wear like my cute outfits
and then I've got my tinnies on.

(55:12):
I've already got the B dazzler.
But um, yeah, I've I'm at leastthree almost four months in.
I have another month to go.
So yeah, it's it's it has slowedme down, but it's also made me
more um aware of I don't eatunhealthy.
I'm I'm pretty good about myeating habits, but I'm now 50.
And so it's that just typical,you know, struggle that women

(55:36):
have with their hormones andmetabolic rate, right?
So it's made me more intentionaland even more um present when
I'm eating because I know if Ieat certain things, it's not
like I can go walk, you know,add extra steps or hit the gym
to burn those few extracalories.
So it's really made me veryintentional about everything I

(55:59):
do, even like sitting, how Iwalk, because you know, for the
longest time I was obviouslyshifting my weight and adjusting
so I wouldn't re-injure all thelimits that I tore.
So yeah, it's it's been aninteresting process.

SPEAKER_01 (56:14):
Yeah.
Slowing down as a womansometimes is a hard thing to do.

SPEAKER_00 (56:18):
Because you gotta you gotta please all the people
all the time.

SPEAKER_01 (56:21):
Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 (56:22):
And not yourself.
Sorry, I have no business inthis conversation.

SPEAKER_01 (56:26):
No, no, blessing in disguise, it happens quite
often, you know, especially withwith women, you know, we're to
we're we we know we need to slowdown at some points, but the the
active mind tells us, no, no,I've got this to do, I've got
all these responsibilities.
And sometimes craters likeyou're you know, sit down.
Yeah, and then you don't listen,and it's like, okay, well, I'll
make you sit down.

SPEAKER_00 (56:44):
Well, speaking of meaning making, that is right,
these timeouts.
You're there to figure out whatis the spiritual significance of
this, you know.
Not that you invite everything,right?
But what you do with it, whatyou do with your circumstances
and conditions is always up toyou.
So that idea of what is thishere to teach me?
Yeah, and I love your outcome,Virginia, that just being more

(57:04):
mindful and you know, moreintentional was your word.
I love that.
In my case, I haven't figured itout yet.
But part of me is like, I justtoday I was like, because I did
decide I self-diagnosed, which Ioften do, that it's sacral um
SI, um, sacral iliac joint, youknow, the joint between the hips

(57:25):
and the lower, because I don'twant to go on and on, but I it
could be many things because Ihave a lot of things that kicked
in because of my recent healthissues and the drugs I had to be
on.
So it could be, I mean, realquick, I have uh stenosis and
arthritis of the lumbar andcervical spine.
So, do you know what I mean?
It could be a bulging disc, itcould be a pinched nerve, we
don't know.

(57:45):
But the minute my sister saidSI, I Googled it to look for the
exercises, and I was like, oh mygod, that is exactly what's
going on.
It has nothing to do with theother issues.
So, um, but I did realize I'vethought about the sacrum
probably more than most people.
It has so many nerves, right?
And they're so intricately, youknow, inextricable from your

(58:09):
bones.
I just am fascinated by thesacrum.
There's a lot of nerves downthere, and when you have
sciatica or when you have thisSI joint inflammation, you feel
it in your butt, you feel itrunning down your leg.
I'm just kind of fascinated byit.
So I don't know.
My only conclusion at this pointis the human body is
fascinating, and we're lucky itworks as well as it does most of

(58:30):
the time.
Do you know that that's kind ofmy takeaway?
And also that we do have adegree, as Virginia and I just
did a whole episode of agency.
You know, we're taught to bereally dependent on the
pharmaceutical industry and thewhole medical profession.
And the truth is we have moreagency though than we know.
So my sister did heal herselffrom the SI, and uh, I'm about

(58:52):
to, once I feel like I'm notdoing more damage, I'm gonna do
the same exercise she did, andyou know what I mean, and just
take care of it myself.
I don't need to run to a doctorfor this.
Those are my takeaways today.
Talk to me tomorrow and see whatI've come to.

SPEAKER_04 (59:05):
Well, oh, go ahead.
Oh, I was just saying the factthat you reached out, you know,
well, not like you specificallyreached out to your sister,
Dominic, but the fact that youtalked to her, you know, let her
let her know what was going on,and then took that help because
that's I want to say that's oneof the big things too, going
back to the concept ofinterconnectivity, you know,
making meaning in our lives,finding purpose, and and you

(59:26):
know, with my intentions andhaving that, you know,
self-awareness more of like sobringing up ginger roles.
Um, I was typically the one whoalways cleaned the house.
Not that not that my spouse didnot help, he did, but I was the
main person who maintained thehouse, at least internally, um,
when it came to the cleaning.

(59:47):
And so I haven't been able to doa lot of that stuff.
And today I was actually feelingbetter and I was like, oh, you
know, I'm I'm gonna really deepclean our our bathroom, you
know, because my husband's beentaking care of that.
And I walked into the and he wasalready in there doing it, and I
was just like, I mean, like howI would do it.
And I and I just one it helpedme go like, wow, I need to show

(01:00:08):
more appreciation in myrelationships with people when
they just take it uponthemselves to help me out and
the and being better aboutasking for that help to lean on
those in my inner circle when Ineed to.
So that's that's the other thingI think when when things like
this happen in our lives, it'sit's the it's the universe
really trying to smack us theside of the head and going, quit

(01:00:29):
being so self serving and selfsufficient that you forget
you're part of a whole too.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:36):
I love that.
So beautiful.
Yeah, it's gratitude as well,right?

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:39):
It's just okay.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:42):
Woo! So we've been talking for about an Hour, but I
feel like we didn't really getto all the cultures you spent
time with.
I'm trying to get to New Zealandand Taraniki because I have a
strange connection withTaraniki.
I want how did you end up in NewZealand?

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:59):
Okay.
So after I spent a bit of timein Ireland and Europe doing some
paintings.
And when I came back, I did likea year of acts of service.
And I was so in love with itthat I wanted to stay.
And then all of a sudden I wasjust pushed back onto the road
uh circumstantially.
And uh so I took a job uhtraining horses over in New
Zealand and got my visa and Ipopped over there, and uh a lot

(01:01:23):
of my my cycles and my patternsstarted to repeat themselves,
you know, even across on theother side of the world.
I was faced with the same mirrorand I was like, oh come on.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:31):
And so um why why would that be?
Because you were back in acosmopolitan area or surrounded
by humans?
Why why did they kick in?

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:41):
Um well, a lot of the a lot of the the trauma and
the patterns I was peating wererelational uh situations.
So it wasn't even like thedynamic of like, you know, the
medicine of New Zealand and theMaori culture was was something
that was so profound in myjourney and it really walks with
me uh in my practice andceremony spaces.
But the initial um you know jobposting that I took was working

(01:02:03):
with these animals, and theseanimals weren't so well taken
care of.
And it really put me in a placeof having to defend something
innocent against therelationships that I would be a
people pleaser in.
So it was really throwing methis curveball of like, okay,
well, now it's not just about medefending my my innocence, it's
actually about me protectingsomething outside of me.
So it's actually pushing me tostand more in my in my voice and

(01:02:25):
in my power of of um, you know,my traumas and the unraveling of
my behaviorisms.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:31):
And how did that go over with with ego in the
equation?

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:36):
Well, it's um it it was it was it was good at the
beginning, and then eventuallymy ego kicked in.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:43):
No, I meant them.
Like if they don't get it, andnow like you said, it's bigger
than me and I'm protectingothers.
Did you find a way of you knowwhat I mean?
Um asserting yourself withoutfeeling the need to be
diplomatic?
I that's what I heard in there.
That you were trying to be apeople pleaser, but maybe it was
an opportunity to get past thatand just stand your ground, you

(01:03:04):
know?

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:04):
Yeah, yeah.
Initially it was.
This was one of the I call thisone of my bigger beasts, like
one of my bigger demons to kindof work through because um I I
start strong and then eventuallysomehow it starts to creep in or
I get a little bit tired, itstarts to weaken me a little
bit.
And then eventually my otherside of you know, parts of my
personality maybe uh are takinga you know a turn and there's a

(01:03:27):
bit of entitlement there or alittle bit of pride kicking in.
And so, you know, I'm dancingwith all these accountabilities
of all these moving parts, and Ithink, you know, eventually I
started losing uh my judgmentbecause of the circumstance.
And what had happened was when Istarted doing that, the horse
that I was training, she shethrew me off and and and I hit
the ground and I fractured myribs and I fractured my

(01:03:49):
collarbone and tore all themuscles left side of my body.
And then, you know, that wasactually like the last day I was
training her, and the last day Iwas at this farm.
And then I went and spent twomonths living off grid next to a
volcano.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:01):
And all of a sudden I'm here and like one does.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:05):
And I'm from, you know, I'm chopping firewood with
fractured ribs, and I'm and Ican't pick up my bag to go home.
And I'm I'm sitting in this,it's like this spiritual
timeout, and I'm like, oh, wereally this is a big one, you
know.
This is the one where we really,you know, and this is the the
problem where someone getscaught in between the knowing
and the acting, right?
Where ignorance no longer playsa part, but it's so hard to act

(01:04:27):
uh and change your behaviorismswhen the ego can be as strong as
it is.
And so, and I knew better,right?
And I knew my I knew better, sothat was my consequence.
That was my karmic, karmic cyclehappening.
And it probably created it.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:43):
I relate to that in that sometimes you know exactly
what you need to do, but youdon't have the free will to just
do it.
Like with my back, it's the sameold thing.
Like, I know what I need to do,I just can't, you know.
And then I rationalize it.
Go, no, my back wants me to justlie on the couch and drool right
now.
And I try to figure out themessage, but sometimes I mean

(01:05:05):
lately I've that theme has comeup.
I know what I need to do.
Why don't I have the free willto do it?
Might be the first time in mylife I don't have the free will
to look out for myself.
Sorry, I don't know if that'srelated.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:15):
Uh no, it it is, and I think that's sometimes where
we have to start.
Instead of like, you know,challenging, I don't have the
free will, it's asking yourself,why don't I have the free will?
Where like and then going intothat piece of discomfort where,
like, where where have I lost myfree will right now?
You know, what what's got a holdof me that I'm not seeing?
There's something hidden herethat I'm not I'm not consciously
bringing to the table.

(01:05:35):
Something's active, you know, inthe psyche in the shadow self or
whatever.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:38):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:38):
And you're trying to be like, okay, where are you?
Where are you sitting?
I want to dialogue with you.
And and you know, the same,yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:44):
Sorry, in your case, I've heard I've never had a
broken rib, but I've heard it'sone of the most painful
injuries.
Was there any symbolism?
Was breathing?
You mentioned chopping wood,like the act of breathing is
kind of fundamental to life,right?
Was there any spiritualsignificance to the breaking of
the ribs?

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, and it was all on the leftside of my body.
So in ceremony spaces and stuff,you know, your left side is your
mother's side, your feminineside.
So it was I was I wounded myfeminine side because I was
acting out of my masculineenergy too strong.
And so I needed to learn tobreathe again, and I need to
learn to be soft again, and Ineeded to learn to come back
down again, you know, fromwhatever high I was riding on my

(01:06:24):
my ego trip, you know.
And so I had to just it was, itwas, it was be still, you know,
don't move, don't go in theseplaces.
And it's it's hard for mebecause I've been in survival
for so long, or I've been in mymasculine and I've been this,
you know, really strong,independent woman kind of
attitude for so long.
And now it started to it stoppedserving me.
You know, now it was like Iactually want to be feminine,

(01:06:46):
but I my body wanted it, my mindwasn't catching up, you know.
And then I was like, oh, there'snot, there's there's no there's
no communication happening here.
So you know, and it was it waspainful, right?
And and now you're you know, youwant to be masculine, you know,
here you go, here's yoursituation.
You're masculine, you've gotfractured ribs, go and chop your
firewood.
You know what I mean?
This is if this is what you'reasking for, and you're like, oh,

(01:07:07):
maybe I actually don't wantthis.
Maybe I want to lean on help,maybe I want to soften, maybe I
want to receive, you know, maybeI in and this is some of the
deeper questions that you startasking yourself uh and what
you're going into, and then youstart digging up, you know, all
your trauma with it.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:23):
I'm wondering if the book that comes out of all of
this, uh sorry, I don't rememberthe name right now, but are you
I'm just fascinated by specificlessons when you look at, you
know, especially medical issuesor health challenges, the
spiritual significance of amanifestation, you know.

(01:07:44):
Will your book talk about thespecific lessons you learned
again from the elders in a giventribe or from an injury like
that?
And because that was such agreat when you said, you know,
it was only the left side of mybody, therefore I had to really
come to terms with my feminineside.
Like that is your book full ofanecdotes like that.
Say yes, please.

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:04):
Yes, yes, 100%.
I'm a hundred percent.
It's like it's my life's work isabout is about being able to
listen to the body.
And the beauty is, you know,that that's what it's
interesting that I had a biginjury in a place where the
Maori culture also believed thatvery prominently in their
practice, where they believethat your body's ailments and
things like that are trying totell you something.
So they don't go to the doctor'suh first time, you know, that's

(01:08:26):
right away.
They they also sit with theirpain, they also sit with the
discomfort, they try tounderstand what had happened
with the scenario and they moveit, they move it out of their
body with their minds.
And it's it's it's skillful, andyou actually can feel when
you're moving something out andwhen you're releasing something
out of your body, and the deeperyou go into that practice, the
more you realize, you know, yourfreedom of choice just to just

(01:08:49):
to be in your own body, youknow, and and your ailments and
everything like that are tellingyou things.

SPEAKER_00 (01:08:53):
And well, and the agency, like I said, we did a
whole episode about agency, andbut I did since, by the way,
Virginia, I've since learned,you know, I've become friendly
with the Chad GPT.
I'm not proud of it, but I did Idid ask it, you know, literally
what percentage of doctorvisits, you know what I mean, of

(01:09:14):
symptoms that we seek medicalattention for actually require
it.
Ninety percent of things wouldtake care of themselves if we
weren't socialized to believe wedepend on doctors.
Literally 90%.
If you just let it pass, I meansome things take longer than
others, right?
Like your ankle, Virginia.
But if you take the spirituallesson thrown in your path and

(01:09:35):
you do the work, it might taketwo weeks, it might take a
month, it might take a year.
Your body knows how to repairitself within reason.
We're all gonna die, right?
But anyway, I love that uh Maoriapproach, and I think Western
society could adopt that becausewe're so brainwashed to believe
we need to depend onpharmaceuticals to stay above

(01:09:57):
ground.

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:59):
Yeah, it's the information they don't want you
to know, though, right?
Because it's what's feedingthem.
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:05):
Well, I try to, I you know, I think thank God for
Western medicine, you know, someof the developments.
I just think we need toacknowledge the spiritual suit,
I mean the energetic element.
We treat everything chemically,you know.
What about prevention?
What about diet and lifestyle?
And so I don't like to poo-poomodern Western medicine, thank

(01:10:25):
God for some of theadvancements.
However, and I think we are onthat path, you know, we're
starting to embrace Easterntradition a little more and talk
about energetic influences andnot just chemical, right?
But um anyway, uh I do resonatewith the Maori culture in a
strange way, and I've had umopportunities to work in both
New Zealand and Australia, butit's been kind of a hit and miss

(01:10:48):
relationship.
It's never happened.
But I've gotten several joboffers and kind of done enough
research to get excited about,you know, whether it's Canberra
or Wellington, wherever thestudio is.
So I feel like I'm meant to bethere at some point.
And some of my tattoos areMaori, by the way.
So what is the biggest thing youlearned from them?
Was it that agency with regardto health, or what was the

(01:11:11):
biggest thing you learned fromthe Maori culture?

SPEAKER_01 (01:11:15):
Uh health was a was a big one.
Um, but it was it was, you know,there's such an overlap between
the indigenous culture here andthe Maori culture.
There, they have a lot ofsimilarities.
Um, and you know, I was soprivileged to to work with uh
some Maori kids.
And the and the kids actuallybecame one of some of my greater
teachers, especially whenthey're you know, they're
honoring you with a haka orthey're you know they're

(01:11:37):
imparting their wisdom and theyspeak, you know, about the land
and and the way that shecommunicates to you.
And it's it's so profound whattheir teachings are.
And you know, you're gonna adoptdifferent things, but the
premise is all indigenous tribesand cultures spoke with the
land, and their interpretationsalter, but they all spoke to the

(01:11:58):
land, and then they inspire youto also speak to the land and
their ancestors and their stars,and you know, it's it's like you
some of the most beautiful starsyou've ever seen have been in
Autoroa.
I should say Autoroa, uh, asopposed to New Zealand, just to
honor them a bit better.
But um, and you know, it'sthey've been stripped of that
culture, but they're they're soresilient, they're so they're

(01:12:20):
they're warriors, you know, theythey're not gonna let you know
history or or anything like thatstop them from what they're
embodying.
Um, and I think it's the mostbeautiful thing to be a witness
of.

SPEAKER_00 (01:12:31):
Well, let me ask you this, because obviously our
podcast is all about story.
It seems to me that the originstories, right, and the
mythology of that culture iswhat communicates these
principles, right?
They're so connected to theland.
Like even just the origin storyof Taraniki is is so defining.

(01:12:51):
It's so defining about the Maoriculture.
Do you want to talk to that alittle bit?
The mythology, the sort ofarchetypes inherent in these
origin stories.

SPEAKER_01 (01:13:01):
Yeah.
So I, you know, when I was in uhMount Taranaki, the um the it
was around Matariki, which wastheir um their Maori New Year's,
and they celebrate the you know,the seven sisters, which are the
seven stars in the sky.
So they use constellations quitea lot.
Um, but they speak, you know,they speak about your mana.

(01:13:21):
So your mana is your spirit,right?
And so you've got you know thewater and all the different
elements that are that aredancing with you.
And um, but they they have aregard for for their elders and
for the women.
And the seven sisters was whatthey celebrate on Matsuriiki.
So it's these seven sisters thatgo up onto this mountain and
they they try and fly theirkites.

(01:13:42):
And the um the wind wasn'tpicking up.
So all of the sisters decided tosleep under this tree.
And the last sister, theyoungest sister, she didn't
sleep under the tree.
She was awake, she was waitingfor the wind, she was all
excited, she really wanted herkite to fly.
And uh when the sisters woke up,she was praying for the wind.
And when the sisters woke up,the kite was in the air.

(01:14:03):
All of their kites were in theair, and so they all became the
stars.
And so it became this beautiful,this beautiful celebration.
And you know, you're witnessingall these people come together
on on a day like this, andyou're you're watching them
celebrate the stars, you'rewatching them with their hakas,
you know, in honoring of theelements, in honoring of the
elders and the teachings.
And there's and there's so much,there's so much to learn there.

(01:14:25):
I haven't even personallylearned uh even the surface of
it.
I've just been honored to towitness a few a few events.
Um, but there's so much more tounpack.
Um and if they're willing toteach you, and that's the most
beautiful part, a lot of themare, you know, if you're willing
to listen.

SPEAKER_00 (01:14:41):
Yeah, wow.
Well, I I wanted you saidsomething a few minutes ago I
want to follow up on, which is,you know, the Maori culture
seems to share a lot with NativeAmerican culture.
Why do you suppose that is?
I mean, I could speculatethrough my own worldview, but
why do you suppose a lot ofindigenous cultures share so
much?

SPEAKER_01 (01:15:04):
So after traveling from you know different places
and experiencing things, Ithink, you know, and and and the
shamans that I actually walkwith when I'm in Africa, they
they put it so beautifully thatcreator reached our hearts in
different ways.
Um, and that's why there's anoverlap.
You know, creator reached thepeople of North America the same
way that he reached the peopleof you know, outaroa, the same

(01:15:24):
way he reached the people ofAfrica.
Um, the way that they interpret,because our creativity is
limitless and our perspectiveand our our uh interpretation
can be limitless, um, reflectsin those cultures, reflects to
the land of that area, reflectsto the teachings.
And um, and that's where like,you know, we're we get medicines
from and that kind of thing.

(01:15:45):
So although the medicines may bedifferent, although the the
practices may be different, theoverlap is the initial principle
of their practice.
And that's what's that's thethat's the same, you know.

SPEAKER_00 (01:15:55):
It's fascinating to me.
You know, I Joseph Campbell is acomparative religion expert,
right?
And so when you start going downthat road of like whether it's
uh Joseph Campbell or uh Moore,you see that we're just wired to
understand the metaphysicaldisposition of the universe, you
know, and it's we're wired tohave a huge understanding of

(01:16:17):
nature, and it's maybe it's kindof uh what we're calling the
dream spell illusion, or I didanyway.
That it's socialization and thestatus quo, you know, that
blinds us to our innate wiringto understand existence.
Does that make sense a littlebit?
And that's what we have to undo,you know.
When I I heard a parallel too,like you did some personal work

(01:16:40):
through isolation, but you alsoundid some socialization, so we
understand ourselves better whenwe go on these walkabouts or
these medicine walks, but wealso begin to understand the
human condition better.
Does that make sense?
It's it's parallel, there'salways the micro and the macro.

SPEAKER_01 (01:16:57):
Absolutely.
And I think at the end of theday, you know, what creator
really wants is you just to becloser to to the essence of
which you come from, right?
And that's that's the hard partbecause the ego has is what
separates you from creator.
And it and it's you know, wespeak of ego in a in a in a
negative connotation sometimes,but it's really you know our
defensive mechanism, ourprotection, our survivor, you

(01:17:18):
know, that those within us.
And yeah, there's a well, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:17:22):
Oh, I'm so sorry.
No, yeah, there's a theme in theseeker about how yes, we're all
extensions of collectiveconsciousness, right?
We're just a little chunk ofcollective consciousness, but
the only way to exist in thephysical realm is yeah, through
ego.
So you don't get eaten by atiger, or you know, like it's
the gift.
We get the gift of life in thephysical realm because of our

(01:17:42):
ego as an extension ofcollective consciousness.

SPEAKER_01 (01:17:46):
Yeah, absolutely.
And it's when you're unravelingthose parts, you're thanking it
as you're doing it.
So it allows that the you know,the we we have this war going on
inside of ourselves, and we'refrustrated and we're shameful,
and we're creating the viciousloop that keeps us cycling in
the ego as opposed to justseeing it for what it is and
saying, Well, thank you, youkept me safe.

SPEAKER_00 (01:18:04):
Right.
We like we like to demonize it.
We demonize our our baseinstincts and uh yeah, anyway.

SPEAKER_01 (01:18:10):
They just need a little love.

unknown (01:18:11):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (01:18:12):
Well, that's Thomas More embracing the shadow, as we
said, embracing the shadow sideof human nature.
And uh Virginia, what aboutJungian philosophy?
That's largely about embracingthe shadow as well, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04 (01:18:23):
Um, it is uh the shadow self versus the the known
self.
Um I'm not I know it, it's justnot my deep dive.
I'm more on the other side of ofthe thing.
But when I was listening to youguys, you know, going on about
that.
So this this is a concept, atheory that I'm the for identity

(01:18:45):
formation that I'm working with.
So it's it's the whole conceptof authentic self versus our
constructive identity and andit's relational the way it is
relational to each other.
So um basically the authenticself is our unconditioned
essence.
So when you when we're talkingabout creator um or the

(01:19:05):
universal, to me, those are theum undeniable truths, right?
That that resonate no matterwhere we are um or what language
we speak.
They're just the you know, um,they're just the the truths that
are the truths.
So I and and I know people arelike, well, I you know, here's
my personal truth.
And I think that's where thesocialization, the culture, the

(01:19:27):
words we use to describe it iswhen is when we say it's our
truth because we just say thingsin a different way, but the
undeniable truths are still whatthey are, even if we use a
different language to our wordto try and describe it.
So the authors.

(01:19:49):
Is that uncon unconditionedessence of who we are, the part
of us that basically existbefore the layers um of the
expectations, thesocializations, the survival
strategies, the narratives thatwere given at birth from our
families of origin, the culturein which we're grown up in, and
then anything else, you know,that's on the you know, external

(01:20:11):
side of things.
And and then that it's thosethings that basically become our
constructed identity.
It's the the things that youtake on.

SPEAKER_00 (01:20:20):
Yeah, yeah, so many parallels.
That's what's fascinating whenyou look at you know human
nature through a psychologicallens.
Or I think there's so many waysof expressing it.
But one parallel that occurs tome is I think we've talked about
it a little bit on here inVirginia, the DMN, the default
mode network of the brain.
It's what literally uh ensuresthat uh you understand, you

(01:20:42):
know, it's like you're sayingpersonality, identity, and it's
largely constructed throughmemory, but we don't even know
where memories live, right?
But it's the only way you don'tlose yourself and immerse
yourself in the collective isthis understanding that you're
the discrete, right?
Uh individual, and yet onlybrain chemistry, maybe

(01:21:04):
serotonin, I think there's acouple others that determine
just how this you know howstrong your sense of self is.
And we all have moments like weyou we've said when we have peak
experiences or when we'remeditating where we recognize
our interconnectivity, and uhDeepek Chopper would say and
metahuman and a squid couldappear in your driveway.

(01:21:24):
Right, like the field of purepotential kind of takes over,
and or and if you've ever had afamily member with Alzheimer's,
you see you have a front rowseat to how you lose all those
identifiers of the individualand they become much more
immersed in the collective.
Is that a parallel or not?
Did I imagine that?

SPEAKER_04 (01:21:43):
No, no, it it is, and I and I think and then Algen
Alexandra brought up, you know,perfectly when she was talking
about the ego, how it is ourprotective mechanism.
And that's that's the thing wesee when someone has, like you
just said, like dementia,Alzheimer's, is the the ego
side, which is part of theconstruct for me.
I I consider that that that'syour you know constructed

(01:22:03):
identity, right?
Um, because that's that's thecognition that comes in to take
those things to say this is whoI am and put it into words.
So it's an identifiable, youknow, basically art form living
within within the collective.
And so that's what we seedisappear.

SPEAKER_00 (01:22:21):
It's it's when because we get exhausted.
Yeah, ego is exhausting, right?

SPEAKER_04 (01:22:27):
It is because it's and because it's always it's
always changing, it's it's inconstant motion.

SPEAKER_00 (01:22:34):
I love it.
Alexandra, ego, diffusion ofego, Alzheimer's, anything?

SPEAKER_01 (01:22:40):
Yeah, yeah.
No, actually, I've I've been awitness to um a few people with
dementia and Alzheimer's, and Iand it's and it's an interesting
thing to like watch, even justwith children, from like, you
know, from young kids all theway to elderly people, um, how
the evolution of the ego startsto change, where it starts,
where it begins, where it startsto like create itself.
And then when it starts tounravel itself or alter itself

(01:23:03):
to meet the meet the conditionof of the human body, of the
physical, right?
And um, and it's interestingbecause I actually I used music
um as a tool a lot of the timeswith uh people who have
Alzheimer's if I'm doing anykind of healing with that.
And it's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 (01:23:19):
It's so powerful, isn't it, to tap back into their
identity.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:23:22):
Yeah.
And like they they may not forthey may not remember any single
family member, but thevibrational frequency of music
isn't gone, you know.
So then it goes to show likethat the creativity or like the
the consciousness of ofsomething that's beyond maybe
the you know the intellectualside of being human exists still
behind the scenes there andstill brings them joy and peace

(01:23:44):
and that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 (01:23:45):
Yeah, it's soul level, right?
Yeah, I've seen some amazing.
Well, again, there's so many uhexamples in our own family, but
I've seen some amazing videos ofhow music it's not that it
brings them back because it issoul level, like we said, but
they just seem more presentsomehow, you know?

SPEAKER_01 (01:24:03):
Yeah, joyful.
I mean, it must be hard to be tobe you know in a state of
confusion constantly and andthings not always operating and
people around you that you allof a sudden knew and now you
don't know, but music, thefamiliarity and the joy, like if
we can give somebody that who'sgoing through a time like you
know, that's a little bitconfusing, then I think we're
we're doing okay in humanity.

SPEAKER_00 (01:24:24):
I love that.

SPEAKER_04 (01:24:25):
Yeah, so so here's a thought that ties to that, which
it also goes back to the wholeyou know creative side and and
how story comes into it.
So as I was listening, you guystalk about I was thinking how
the ego constructs the walls toprotect, but the authentic self
opens windows to see.
So if we think about that,healing isn't about erasing that
ego, um, it's teaching us toserve the truth rather than to

(01:24:48):
defend the illusion.

SPEAKER_00 (01:24:51):
I like that.
I was gonna say, and I'll sitwith that one for a while.
You know, we always on secondlisten, by the way, this will
seem way more linear, Alexandra.
And there's always so much morethere, you know.
We're always we try not to, butwe're often thinking of the next
thing we're gonna say.
And I'm I think Virginia and Iboth, I don't want to speak for
you, but we're always amazed howlinear these conversations are

(01:25:12):
on second listen and how there'salways multiple levels.
So, but anyway, on that note, Ido we're we're definitely not
gonna get to everything.
So, you're one of the gueststhat I'm gonna say, please come
on for a part two because I'dlove to I love picking your
brain and um it's stimulatingfor me.
Is there anything that we didn'tget to that you're really hoping
to impart to listeners?

(01:25:33):
I wanna direct, we'll be puttingyour links, by the way, in the
episode description.
So I want everybody to look outfor the book.
And is there a crowdfundingcampaign for the book?
Did I did I hear that correctly?

SPEAKER_01 (01:25:46):
Uh yeah, so I just launched that.
Just if um what I'm gonna do isjust kind of put some
information out there.
Um, and and a lot of the thingsthat I do in Africa, um, uh I'll
be going back in a few weeks,um, are a lot of grassroots
projects in like communitiesthat are very poverty and
whatnot.
So not only is the book or theartwork and that kind of stuff,
all their sales kind of isfunneled into projects like that

(01:26:10):
over overseas.
Um, but also if anybody feelscalled to, you know, donating
and whatnot, it's kind of I I'mI'm a big fan of NGOs and things
like that, but I'm also a bigfan of going into speaking with
the people.
And that's kind of what I'vedevoted my last six months to
doing was actually havingcommunication with people and
finding out and listening totheir needs rather than just
assuming that I know what theyneed.

(01:26:32):
And um, so I like to just, youknow, act as a little bit of a
bridge that, you know, if peoplewant to put some money towards
people that I can make sure thatit gets directly to them, and
then there's not like a lot ofyou know, middleman and
administration administrativestuff that kind of happens in
between.
But other than that, um, yeah,just just look out for the book.

SPEAKER_00 (01:26:51):
Okay, and we'll put a link to Lupa Vella as well.

SPEAKER_01 (01:26:54):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:26:54):
Um, but just uh yeah, I guess I'm saying we're
getting down to the wire here.
So any final words of wisdom youwould like to share or anything
we didn't get to other than thelogistics of Lupa Vella and the
funding?

SPEAKER_01 (01:27:10):
Um, I think I'm just I think I'm just grateful.
I think it's um, you know, todayhas been a very uh insightful
time.
It's been so it there's a lot ofresonance speaking with you
guys.
And it's it's nice to see theevolution of the journey.
Um, like I said, from like astory told or sorry, a story
lived into a story told.
Um so it's really uh a firststep, and I'm I'm so honored to

(01:27:33):
to be on this podcast andsharing it with you and hearing
your your wisdom as well.
And uh yeah, it's more like acheers to the beginning, a lot
of gratitude.
Well, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 (01:27:42):
You know, we we feel very blessed to have you, and I
know not only is some of thisgonna resonate with listeners,
but you're going to inspire alot of people.
You certainly inspired me, sothank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 (01:27:53):
Cheers, thank you guys.

SPEAKER_00 (01:27:55):
All right, Virginia.
Bye.
Okay, all right, and to ourlisteners, remember life is
story, and we can get our handsin the clay individually and
collectively.
We can tell a new story.
See you next time.

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