February 18, 2025 • 52 mins
Nicole Kepic, an accomplished copywriter and fresh-faced author, graces our podcast to share her journey as an introverted entrepreneur navigating the bustling world of online business. Get ready to uncover the secrets behind her new book, "Don't Ask Me to Be Loud: The Introverted Girl's Guide to Online Business," which sheds light on how introverts can thrive without pretending to be someone they're not. Nicole invites us into a heartfelt conversation about finding fulfillment through service, the art of crafting meaningful connections, and the unexpected beauty of quiet leadership.
As we explore Nicole's world, we challenge stereotypes by highlighting how introverts possess the unique ability to lead with quiet confidence and thoughtful engagement. With anecdotes that resonate with introverts and extroverts alike, we discuss how embracing one's innate personality traits can become a powerful asset in both entrepreneurship and leadership. Nicole's transition from corporate life to the entrepreneurial realm serves as an inspiring blueprint for those seeking more freedom, flexibility, and authenticity in their careers.
We dive into the essentials of impactful copywriting, emphasizing the importance of understanding your audience and honing your brand's core values. Nicole shares her expertise on crafting compelling narratives that resonate and build trust. Our conversation also touches on the emotional side of entrepreneurship, exploring how personal experiences, including loss, shape our professional journeys. Join us as we celebrate authenticity, resilience, and the extraordinary impact of leading a life true to oneself.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 2 (01:04):
Sometimes it's easy to think how am I going to stand
out in this arena if I have aquieter personality?
If I don't have this big, boldpersonality, how are people
going to find me and notice meand choose me if I'm not as loud
as everyone else?
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Hi, I'm Michelle Rios , host of the Live your
Extraordinary Life podcast.
This podcast is built on thepremise that life is meant to be
joyful, but far too often wesettle for less.
So if you've ever thought thatsomething is missing from your
life, that you were meant formore, or you simply want to
experience more joy in theeveryday, then this podcast is
(01:46):
for you.
Each week, I'll bring youcaptivating personal stories,
transformative life lessons andjuicy conversations on living
life to the fullest, with thehope to inspire you to create a
life you love on your terms,with authenticity, purpose and
connection, on your terms withauthenticity, purpose and
(02:08):
connection.
Together, we'll explore what itmeans to live an extraordinary
life, the things that hold usback and the steps we all can
take to start living our bestlives.
So come along for the journey.
It's never too late to getstarted and the world needs your
light, your light.
Hello everyone, and welcomeback to the Live your
(02:29):
Extraordinary Life podcast.
I'm your host, michelle Rios,and today I am so, so pleased to
be able to introduce you to adear friend of mine, nicole
Kepik.
Nicole is a copywriter by trade.
She has recently written a book.
The book is called Don't Ask Meto Be Loud, the Introverted
(02:50):
Girl's Guide to Online Business,and I just am so excited.
I have so many questions and Ican't wait to delve in.
So, nicole, welcome to the showshow.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Thank you, Michelle.
I am super excited too.
I think I answered your DMinvitation in record time.
Like as soon as you said, hey,do you want to be on my podcast?
I was like, yes, please countme in.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
This is an easy answer.
The truth be told, nicole and Igo back a little bit, because
Nicole actually helped me withmy website Nicole was the first
and only person that I reachedout to help me with my copy.
I was beginning to think aboutmy brand and my own space online
a couple years ago now and Iwas told do not pass, go, do not
(03:37):
collect $200.
There's only one copywriter youneed to speak to.
She will interview you, shewill get inside your head, she
will get to know you and that isNicole.
And I was like where must Ifind this magical person?
And that was it, like ourfriendship was struck and I was
so impressed with everythingthat you've done to help me with
my brand, and so I'm so excitedfor you in this book.
(04:00):
So congratulations on the book,and I would love for you to
just start with where I startwith all my guests, which is
what does it mean to you, nicole, to live your extraordinary
life?
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Extraordinary life.
Okay, I did think about thisand you know what's funny?
My first thought goes to themovie.
It's a Wonderful Life.
It keeps going back to thatmovie and, admittedly, I have
not watched it in a few years.
I used to watch it with myfamily every single Christmas.
But I just think of the maincharacter and how he thought his
life was meaningless, wasn'tworth anything, and then it was
(04:36):
revealed to him hopefully I'mnot giving anything away here
that he had impacted so manypeople throughout his life
without even knowing it.
There is this really remarkableripple effect and I remember
thinking that is extraordinary,and maybe this sounds selfish or
maybe morbid, but I thoughtwhen I pass away someday like
when I'm 99, I would love tolook down from heaven and see a
(04:58):
room full of people who saidNicole really impacted my life,
or she brought joy, or sheimpacted me in a big or small
way, and so that always stuckwith me.
And so when I think of anextraordinary life, I think of
making an impact not just onyour own self, your own
immediate family, but on otherpeople around you.
So yeah, a bit cheesy maybe,but that's what I think of.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
You know, not only not cheesy, but I think it's
what most people have come torealize, people who at least
have been out in the world andlived a certain amount of time
right Like.
I talk about this a lot, butearly on in my life it was all
about achievement, that and youknow this because you know a lot
(05:46):
about my story but how can Imake a dent in the world from an
achievement standpoint?
And then everything will fallinto place.
And while I think a lot of ushave had the privilege of living
long enough to have achieved alot of different things, that in
and of itself wasn't what mademe fulfilled.
And so, thinking about it froma how may I serve?
(06:09):
What kind of impact can I havein this world?
Definitely for me, transformedthe way I show up in the world,
and so you are among like folkon that front, nicole.
So many people have come on theshow and said once I figured out
that my story or my gifts, ormy trials and tribulations could
(06:30):
actually be in service toothers, I started to have
purpose, and that just changeseverything.
All those things that wethought, god, I don't want
anyone to know about mychallenges, or my trials and
tribulations or foibles orwhatever, end up oftentimes
being the thing that brings uscloser to others.
(06:52):
And on that front, I want youto talk a little bit, because I
know you to be a quieter soul,an introvert as they say.
So what was the impetus for youto go ahead and write this book
?
Obviously, it's targeted atintroverted women right, an
introverted girl's guide toonline business.
(07:14):
But, as I shared with you as Iread this book, I kept thinking
I'm not a full, wholeheartedintrovert and this has so much
meaning for me full,wholehearted introvert and this
has so much meaning for me.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Yeah, okay, where did this start?
I just shared on my storiestoday how I wanted to write a
book back when I was 20 yearsold and I didn't know what it
was going to be about, but Iwanted to write a book.
So this has been on my heartfor a while and I remember
thinking back then we were justchatting about this too how when
you're in your 20s, you thinksomebody who's 30 is so old, yes
, super old.
And so here I was, around 20and I wanted to write a book.
And I remember thinking Ibetter write this fast because I
(07:53):
don't want to be 30, that's soold writing a book and have an
old picture of me on the backcover of the book like, which
sounds so vain because obviously30 is not old.
But for whatever reason, Ididn't write a book back then.
And then you know, life happensyou have kids, career, all these
things.
And then, now that I've been infull-time entrepreneurship for
(08:14):
a few years, I had that idea,that magic end to write a book.
And at first the idea was towrite just a copywriting book,
since that's what I do.
Obviously it makes sense.
It makes sense for my businessfunnel.
But then I just wanted it to bea bit more holistic in the
sense of covering things that weexperience every day as
entrepreneurs.
So having to market yourself,having to create a brand, having
(08:37):
to price your services and sellyour services, and all the
mindset stuff that comes up.
So that's where my book ideakind of melded into.
And then from there I thoughtwhy not tell it through the lens
of an introvert?
Because, like you said, I am anintrovert, I'm a quieter person
and there are some challengesbeing an introvert in the online
space, because the online spacecan be really loud and bold and
(09:01):
sometimes easy to think how amI going to stand out in this
arena if I have a quieterpersonality?
If I don't have this big, boldpersonality?
How are people going to find meand notice me and choose me if
I'm not as loud as everyone else, which I see now as a bit of
scarcity mindset?
There's some thinking in thatlike there's not enough for
everyone or you know I'm notgoing to stand out.
(09:24):
But those were my originalthoughts and I wanted to write a
book that essentially toldintroverts you don't have to
change who you are.
You can be your quiet,confident self and still have a
business that's thriving andjoyful and attracts clients you
adore and pay you well to.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
So spoiler alert for everybody who has not yet had an
opportunity to pick up a copyof Nicole's book.
It is not just for introverts,it is for anyone contemplating a
business, onlineentrepreneurism the lessons, the
stories, the advice and thecounsel in this book from
(10:05):
Nicole's own experiences reallyapply to anybody.
So while introverts unitedabsolutely on this front, my
husband was all excited becausehe's an introvert too.
I said this is written for me,this is for anyone.
So I'm actually just so youknow, getting copies for all of
(10:25):
my girlfriends.
So their Galentine's gifts aregoing to be a copy of Nicole's
book.
So my personal little group ofhigh power women are all getting
a copy of Don't Ask Me To BeLoud the Introverted Girl's
Guide to Online Business.
I think it's so accessible.
I've read so many businessbooks over the years, so
accessible.
I've read so many businessbooks over the years and I'm
(10:47):
telling you guys, go getyourself a coffee, because
Nicole's conversational tone,very approachable style of
writing just draws you in.
You get to know a lot aboutNicole and as a quieter soul, I
have known you for a while anddid not know a lot that came out
in this book.
So that was, first of all, justa joy to get to know you better
, but the counsel and the advicefor most of us, I think, will
(11:11):
be really warm, welcomedreminders that it's okay,
there's no wrong way to do this,but there are some guidelines
on how to do it better, andthat's what I loved about this
book.
So there's something in herefor everyone, introverts and
extroverts alike.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
I appreciate that, and as we were chatting about
earlier my husband's reading thebook and he said the same thing
, he said, yeah, this applies toeveryone introverts, extroverts
, men or women I said, okay,sorry, but we cannot change the
title now.
Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
You might have to have come out with another book.
You might have to have afollow-up book, second edition,
or something this is true, thiscould be the start of my author
career.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Right your series.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Exactly All right.
So one of the things I learnedin this book, which actually
almost floored me because I hadno idea, is that you were a twin
.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Yes, yes, I am.
I share a fun story in the book.
I am a twin, a fraternal twin.
So my twin sister, she and Ilook nothing alike Like I have.
I mean, I have a bit of bronzeron here, but I have pretty much
pasty white skin and she hasthis nice olive complexion.
She always looks like she justcame back from Mexico.
So that, oh wow, yes, oh yeah,the darker hair, darker eyebrows
(12:29):
, but apparently we have thesame eyes.
That's the thing.
That's like.
Ok, you are not switched atbirth.
You two are sisters.
You are twins.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
And your mom had no idea she was having twins.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
No, so she was a single mother at the time.
She went to the hospitalthinking she was just having one
baby, but, alas, I thought Icame out after.
So my sister was born and thenyou know something to the effect
of oh wait, there's anotherbaby in here and there I was
making my glorious debut.
So I've asked her, and I don'tknow if she just either she
(13:04):
didn't have any ultrasounds or Ithink she had one, but our
heartbeats were in tandem.
So you know, this is back inthe late 70s.
I don't, I can't speak for thetechnology, but yeah, she just
thought she was having one baby.
She had both of us.
So quite the shock.
(13:29):
So tell me where you grew up,because I know you're from
Canada, I know you live inCanada, but your son actually
has gone to college here in theStates.
I mean, I just I remember thoseearly years with my mom.
She was a single mom until wewere seven and then she married
my dad and he raised us, adoptedus legally as his own, and then
(13:50):
we have another younger sisterand brother.
But yeah, I talk about my mom alot in the book.
I guess I do.
I give her a lot of credit.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
And what I was so impressed about is that, for
somebody whose mom wasn'texpecting two babies and was a
single mom doing it alone forthe first seven years, you talk
very positively about yourchildhood, that it was a really
warm upbringing.
I love the stories of your momtaking you, to you and your
(14:21):
sister, to church in yourmatching dresses and then going
to Tim Hortons for donuts afterchurch and I just thought, wow,
it couldn't have been easy foryour mom being a single mom,
raising two little girls sameage by themselves, even now in
today's age, raising twins withtwo parents at home, but going
(14:43):
all the way back then with lesshelp, less technology or what
have you.
I don't know if technology ishelpful or not in raising kids
anymore, but it just seemed likesuch a daunting option or
possibility and you have suchfond memories of growing up,
which was so uplifting to readabout, because it's not
something that you commonly hear.
(15:04):
Particularly if your mom was asingle mom, it must have been
harder to do all of this stuffon her own.
So kudos to your mom.
First of all, kudos to your mom?
Speaker 2 (15:15):
I hope for sure.
Yeah, it's funny.
Recently I was in this women'sgroup.
It was a church group and somany people in the room.
It was actually kind of sad.
So many of the women in theroom spoke about not feeling
loved as they grew up or feelinglike not having a strong sense
of self or being told that theyweren't worthy, and I just
remember being shocked by thisand this sounds maybe entitled
(15:38):
because I didn't know that somany women experienced this or
thought about themselves in thisway and it just really gave me
pause and made me think I hadsuch a wonderful upbringing in
the sense that obviously my momwouldn't have had a ton of money
at that time.
We didn't have all the things,but I always felt love, I always
felt worthy and a strong senseof self.
(15:58):
So, yes, I'm quiet but I'm alsoconfident and I think she gave
that to me, especially in thoseformative years.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
But I'm also confident and I think she gave
that she was enough, as thingswere, or at least she didn't
pass on those senses ofinsecurities and maybe lack of
fulfillment onto you, which Ithink is hard for a lot of
parents.
I had teenage parents.
It was not easy, I'm the oldest.
There was just a lot of baggagethat went with that role, under
those circumstances that thenhad to be processed over time to
realize like, oh wait, hold on,this is not who you are, this
(16:50):
is what you went through and youcan make different choices.
So your mom sounds like anincredible woman and what a
blessing.
Well, she would love to hearthat she has recently started
listening to my podcast so theones that I'm guesting on.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
So she will probably listen to this one and will be
delighted to hear that.
She has recently startedlistening to my podcast so the
ones that I'm guesting on.
So she will probably listen tothis one and will be delighted
to hear that.
Well, mom, you did great.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
You did great.
We love Nicole and we love thatNicole had such a wonderful,
supportive and loving upbringing, because you've raised a
confident and phenomenal womanwho's helping so many others.
So well done, mom, thank you.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Thank you to mom.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
So you talk about the fact that there are a few
things that we need to recognize.
I wanna get into the wholeintroverted piece of this
because I do wanna get ontoother parts of the book.
But what are some of the mythsthat really trip up, introverts,
when thinking about starting abusiness and what are the ones
that you think are mostimportant to bust?
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Oh my gosh, so many I know.
Personally, I thoughtintroverts are boring.
I almost thought you know, I'mnot as exciting as everyone else
, I'm not as bold as everyoneelse, so therefore I must be
boring.
And if I'm boring then peoplewill not be not as bold as
everyone else.
So therefore I must be boring,and if I'm boring then people
will not be attracted to me andmy business.
So that is one myth I had todebunk for myself and for other
(18:14):
people.
I think there's also a huge mythout there that introverts don't
like people or being aroundpeople, they're not social or
they don't have social skills.
And this one bugs me so much.
It's like, as I was typing, I'mlike, okay, do not be angry as
you're typing, but I just hateit when people are seeing that
because, as an introvert, I lovepeople, I love going to events
(18:37):
most times, I love meeting newpeople, talking to people, and
so for so long I didn't want toattach the word introvert to my
name because I thought, wellthen, people are going to think
I don't like people or I have nosocial skills.
But I've since learned that,yes, you can be an introvert.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
I want to give away just a little story because I
think it's so relatable, andthat was the grocery store aisle
conversation, like who wants tobe stopped by the neighbor you
don't know that well, or theperson that you've attended like
an event for your childsporting things or what have you
and be stuck in the grocerystore aisle chatting them up
(19:16):
when you really don't have muchmore to say than how's the
weather and how's it going.
And then you're stuck and you'relike I'm just going to read the
back of this.
You know I can't remember whatyou're reading, but pasta or
what have you actually is in thesauce and I'm thinking oh my
God, how many times have I spedup walking to avoid having a
conversation because I didn'tthink I had any energy in me to
(19:38):
have one.
So I just avoided it.
And I'm an extrovert, I'musually the ones that can't, and
I've done that too.
Sometimes you just don't haveit.
And it has nothing to do withwhether or not I like people.
I love people, but I'm notalways up for a conversation,
exactly.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
Yeah, sometimes you have to, you know, quickly move
to the next aisle and pretend tobe immersed and engrossed in
this back panel of a label thatyou've already read.
So, yeah, sometimes you justcan't with people.
I will say that.
Yeah, I will say that, yeah, Imean, sometimes you just have to
.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
All right, let's go.
Let's go.
One more myth bust.
So we know like my husband isan introvert and I always joke
he was made for the pandemictimes because nothing really
changed for him, in the sense ofhe's happy if we have plans,
but he's also happy if we don'thave social plans.
Like it doesn't really make orbreak his level of happiness,
(20:32):
whereas for me there was somelevel of I haven't seen people
other than you.
I need to see other people.
And he was like okay, if youwant to.
But I could tell I was like ohmy God, there are some people
who are just made, designed in away that you really could go
months on end without talking toother people.
And he's like or I could like,I'm okay, like it doesn't change
(20:54):
how I look at things.
That to me, was a blessing.
I was like he's ideal for thisscenario.
He, out of everyone, fared thebest.
I, on the other hand, was likewe need to do another Zoom call
and I'm tired of Zoom.
I have to see people.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Yeah, and he sounds very easy-brizzy and I would
probably go crazy if thepandemic happened again and it
was month on end.
Yes, I would be desperatelywanting to see people.
But, to answer your question,another introvert myth is that
introverts can't be greatleaders.
So I talk about that in thebook too.
But my caveat to that issometimes introverts don't want
(21:31):
to be leaders in the traditionalsense, At least in my
experience.
I didn't want to be a manager ordirector in the corporate field
and I know a lot of people arestriving to climb that ladder.
But there were a couple oftimes when I was promoted from
senior copywriter to marketingmanager and I didn't enjoy it.
All of a sudden I was takenaway from the writing I love to
(21:54):
do and suddenly told okay, nowyou're managing 10 people and
yeah, can you picture memanaging 10 people and having
those awkward conversations like, okay, you've come in late to
work again, we need to sit downand talk about this.
Like I am the mostnon-confrontational person and
so I didn't want to be a leaderin the traditional sense, in the
(22:14):
corporate sense, but in theonline space I think introverts
make great leaders, and not tosay they don't.
In corporate space.
There are many greatintroverted leaders there, but
me personally, I would prefer tobe a thought leader.
So I'm not leading people, I'mnot doing performance reviews,
all that stuff I had no interestin doing.
But I can be a thought leaderin sharing my expertise and
(22:37):
experience.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Well, and I think there's a new appreciation that
didn't exist even probably adecade ago, about the fact that
quiet leadership activelylistens.
There's something to be said.
Like you know, we grew up in thesame era and I think there's
(22:59):
this sense of success andleadership looked a certain way.
It had a strong opinion, it wasarticulate, it was louder.
Nobody spoke when the leaderwas speaking, like we knew who
was in charge, and it was thatpresence that went with the
leadership role of they're atough cookie or you don't want
(23:20):
to get on their bad side.
They're willing to do the quoteunquote hard things which might
require letting someone go orgiving them difficult
information, and they werecomfortable with it.
And I think over time we'vecome to realize sometimes you
end up just then selecting morepeople like that to leadership
(23:40):
because you're looking for acertain type, versus actually
looking for people who have boththe competencies in the work so
that they can train otherpeople and the ability to listen
, which I've now realized and,quite frankly, got there in a
(24:00):
somewhat circuitous route myself.
Listening was so important tobecoming a good leader and yet
most leaders spend most of theirtime talking to people, not
listening.
Right, yes, yes for sure?
Speaker 2 (24:16):
Yeah, I would say the introverts make great listeners
.
Not that extroverts don't, butI think because introverts
aren't, their priority isn'tbeing the center of attention
usually.
So they're okay to sit back andlisten and they enjoy sitting
back and listening.
And then, of course, the moreyou listen, the more empathetic
you are, the better leader youcan be.
(24:37):
You can provide bettersolutions for the problem that
your employees or clients orcustomers are dealing with.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Yeah, Now we have very similar backgrounds also in
the sense that we both camefrom the creative agency world.
So I came from more traditionaladvertising and public
relations.
You were in a creative agency.
I just think that takes acertain type of personality to
survive that environment overthe years, because when you're
(25:07):
in professional services of anykind, but particularly in larger
organizations, you can getdrowned out without even
realizing it if you don't have acertain type of personality and
it's filled with personalitiesright Bigger than life
personalities and creativeagencies.
So it's an interesting place tohave spent time in your career.
(25:28):
When did you know that it wastime for you to try something
different?
Speaker 2 (25:41):
What was the turning point for you to say I want to
go and become an entrepreneur.
Yeah, it was a slow burn for me.
It was certainly not waking up,know, waking up one morning and
seeing the heavens part and,like Nicole, this is what you
should do.
Years ago, probably about 10years prior to leaving corporate
or creative agency life, I hadstarted side hustling, a
freelance writing business.
So I was doing that on the sideas well as working nine to five
(26:03):
for my senior copywriter roleand over the years I just kind
of did it for extra trip moneyand, you know, serving audiences
or serving companies thatdidn't have an in-house
copywriter, like I was for mynine to five.
So I was just doing this on theside and never really had the
intention of taking it full time.
I don't even think I thought ofthat as an option for me,
(26:24):
because I grew up probablysaying, like you, that you go to
school you get a nine to fivejob.
So I had this nine to fivecareer, I had this side hustle
and then life just got reallybusy.
It got super busy in the sensethat you know, I was working
side hustling, my son was inbaseball and hockey at the same
time and rep.
So it was like traveling out oftown on weeknights and weekends
(26:48):
.
I was doing freelanceassignments on nights and
weekends.
What else?
Like?
There was just a lot of workand life stuff happening.
And it came to a point where Iwas like, okay, this is too busy
.
I've got my full-time career.
Oh, I was also commuting atleast an hour each way to work,
so it's like it's like allmoments of the day and night
were taken and I was just.
(27:09):
I felt like I was working allthe time when I wasn't at the
hockey arena or baseballdiamonds.
So I just thought, okay, one ofthese things has to give.
I either quit my full-time jobor I stopped my freelance
writing business.
And it's like at the time Iwasn't quite ready to go all in
on one or the other.
So I approached my boss and Isaid, hey, can I go from five
(27:30):
days a week to three days a week?
And they said yes, because, forwhatever reason, they said yes
and that gave me the chance tokind of baby step into
entrepreneurship.
So I did that for maybe a year.
But then my freelance business,my side hustle, just kept
getting busier and busier andthen I thought you know what
it's time I've done this sidehustling for too long, for long
(27:54):
enough.
So I had those conversationswith my husband and he's you
know the very logical one like,well, but we've always had two
full-time incomes and is thetime right, are you sure?
I'm like, yes, I'm sure.
So finally, right before thepandemic or right after it, I
can't remember.
Yeah, I left corporate creativeagency full-time life and went
(28:15):
all in with my business.
So again, it wasn't like onemoment in time.
It's just kind of a slow buildof you're creating this busy
life and the whole point ofhaving your own business is to
have more freedom andflexibility.
Busy life and the whole pointof having your own business is
to have more freedom andflexibility so something needs
to change.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
So how long has it been now?
Are we in year four or five?
Speaker 2 (28:35):
uh, I think it.
Well, end of 2020.
So yeah, pandemic was alreadyin effect.
So many people quit theircorporate jobs because of the
pandemic.
It just happened to be that wayfor me, our, my company that I
was working for, we were allworking from home, and then
maybe that was part of it in thesense where I thought I won't
go crazy if I work from home allthe time.
(28:56):
So, yeah, it just helped memake the decision.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
I love it.
All right, let's talk aboutcopywriting, because I think
there are a lot ofmisconceptions when
entrepreneurs get out into thespace of like when they need to
have a copywriter or when theymight want to consider copy.
And let's talk a little bitabout when is the best time to
(29:19):
engage a copywriter.
Why would someone want to dothat?
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Yeah, great question.
I would say, before investingin a copywriter, it's really
important to know who youraudience is, know your audience
and what you want to sell.
And it sounds so simplistic,but if you're still deciding
those things, then you mightinvest in a copywriter and then
a month or two later think, oh,but actually I want to serve
this audience or have theseoffers audience or, you know,
(29:50):
have these offers, and it's notto say, the copywriter can't go
and change the copy for you.
You can evolve, but it's justmight be a waste of money in the
beginning to invest so much ina copywriter.
So I would say, yeah, make sureyou are clear on who you are
serving and what you're offering, and then, of course, your
business will evolve.
And, yes, you'll need to changeyour messaging at some points,
but as long as you have thatfoundation there, the timing is
right.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
And let me tell you, the really great thing about
Nicole's book is she actuallywalks you through a lot of the
branding 101 questions thatsomeone needs to ask themselves
when they're starting an onlinebusiness.
They're getting into theentrepreneurial space.
There are things that you willbe thinking about or need to
think about in order to makesure that you have a product or
(30:31):
service that's actually targetedand in service of a specific
audience, and so there are greatquestions in here.
The interesting thing isotherwise, people like Nicole
have to boil the ocean for you,and it's funny because I will
say from my own experience, foryou.
And it's funny because I willsay from my own experience.
(30:52):
Some of us start off with like Iwant to serve everyone, and
Nicole had to go down that routewith me in the beginning, where
I was like everybody, there'snobody I don't want to serve,
and she's like, okay, all right,well, we'll let you swallow
that for a little while and seehow that goes, and then let's
talk some more.
And then, over time, you startto realize like wait, not only
are you not doing yourself anyfavors, it's making it really
(31:14):
hard for people to find you,because there's nothing
distinguishing or that sets youapart, because if you're all
things to all people, you'reactually no one, nothing to
anyone, as they say.
And it's funny because we wereboth happenstance, then in a
kind of a brand buildingmastermind together where we
(31:37):
were talking about audiences andniches, and from two people who
come from backgrounds thatthink about marketing and that
think about audience, and forcedto do that, we still found the
benefit of being in a group ofwomen that were talking about
what does it mean to really bein service?
(31:58):
What does your audience looklike?
Well, what is the avatar?
What are their challenges?
What are their problems?
What are you solving for?
Here we were, for me, 25 yearslater, still having these
conversations I was having withclients, now having them with
myself for my own business.
So I found it so beneficial tobe in that circle and be in
(32:19):
Malika's group with you andhearing how everyone was
evolving their business.
And even then I've thought,well, nicole's business is clear
, it's copywriting.
And then she's like, hold mybeer.
Copywriting for certain people,not just copywriting.
Copywriting for other folks inthe online space, specifically
(32:43):
women who are coaches andspecifically doing mindset work
or health coaching, and I waslike, damn, she's really clear.
And then it was in sales copyon top of it was like blown away
.
At that point I was like, well,I'm glad that my website's done
.
We got her for that.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Oh, geez, yeah.
And just when you think you'redone niching, if you go into
Malika's world, she will haveyou niche some more.
Yeah, she had me niche too.
Well, she didn't have me.
She said what do you enjoywriting the most?
And I'm like I love it all.
I love writing it all.
But somehow we landed on salespage copy, which is funny
because had you asked me beforeare you good at sales or have
(33:22):
you ever taken a sales courseLike sales?
I don't associate myself withsales, but I love writing sales
copy because I love doing it ina way that's fun and friendly
and feel good.
So yes, we need.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
For me, it's captivating.
Here's the thing Nicole may bea quiet presence, but her copy
just is so inspiring, itcaptures your attention.
Her copy does all the work forher.
That's the great thing, like ifyou have a good copywriter, you
have somebody who reallyunderstands who you're trying to
(33:55):
reach and can get into theirmindset and understand what it
is they need to hear.
She can help bring your service, your business, to life in a
way that no other way, like wetend to overthink and, I think,
spin our wheels a bit, notwanting to leave anybody out.
Then there's just a lack ofclarity, like what do you really
(34:15):
do and what do you reallyprovide?
And that's Nicole's specialtyis really getting you to get in
there, roll up your sleeves andbe clear about what you're
solving for.
And it's funny because, likeyou said, it's not that folks
outside of that avatar, outsideof those problems you're solving
for, won't find you.
(34:35):
They will.
There are adjacent industriesor adjacent things and people
will just, I think,energetically find you and want
to work with you.
That's what I think happens.
And now I'm convinced there arepeople like Nicole that do so
well in the online space, notbecause they're loud, not
because they're out postingevery day, but because they're
(34:58):
now in a repeat referralbusiness.
Because once you get anopportunity to work with her and
see what she can do literallyinterviewing you, getting you to
write about yourself and thenasking really good questions and
then she goes off and does hermagic and then you come back and
work together on refining it,but seeing yourself in a new way
(35:21):
, in a new way Some of the stuffI was like I don't know if
that's me, nicole, I have tothink about it, I have to think
on it.
And it was so funny.
I'd find myself going yeah, shedoes know me better than I
thought she did.
She does get it way more than Ithought.
How did she get that?
From just the questions thatshe asked me, there was such a
nuance and an appreciation forboth my experience and my
(35:43):
knowledge and what I wasbringing to the table that it
just made me feel, quite frankly, there's no other word for it
other than safe, because whenyou're putting yourself out
there in the online world andyou are selling a product or
service, you are taking on alevel of exposure right.
Are people going to like it?
(36:03):
Are people going to want this?
Are people going to need this,and so you need to have somebody
work with you and guide you ina way that you start to reflect
back the worth and the value youknow is there.
But there's this trepidationwhen you're right about to push,
go and have everyone see it,and Nicole does such a beautiful
job at that.
(36:24):
That's probably the best word Ifelt very seen heard.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
That's probably the best word.
I felt very seen, heard andsafe when I was working with you
on my copy.
Wow, well, thank you.
Can I just bottle all that up?
I'm so glad you felt that wayand I think you know to your
point earlier.
I think sometimes we're just soclose to our businesses that it
does help to have an outsidercome in, whether it's a
copywriter, designer or coach.
We're just too close to thingssometimes, so that outside
(36:54):
perspective is really valuable.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
What do you think, from a brand building
perspective, are a couple ofthings people may either
overlook when starting out inthe entrepreneurial space or not
put enough credence in that youwant them to be reminded of.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
Well, I would say some of those branding elements,
like really thinking about whatare your values, what is your
vision, what is your mission,doing some of that foundational
work, some of that strategy work, so you can build a rock solid
brand.
And then, once you have that inplace, it'll be so much easier
to do your messaging and yourcopy, because you're not just
winging it, you have that strongfoundation, you know what you
(37:34):
stand for, you know what yourbrand personality is, the tone
of voice, the look and feel, andthen everything goes off from
there.
And then, if you have otherpeople on your team, like a VA
or a designer, all roads wouldlead back to that brand strategy
, so everybody's on the samepage.
And then, in turn, all of yourmarketing touch points you know
social media, email, sales pageseverything is aligned and
(37:56):
cohesive.
So, yeah, definitely startingoff with that brand strategy
work and then again, just reallynoting knowing who your
audience is, knowing them well,so that your copy isn't just
watered down, so that it'sreally specific.
So for my book, for example, yes, I wrote it with introverts in
mind, female introverts, so thelanguage is tailored just to
(38:17):
them, although, like you said,yes, people on the peripheral,
will still enjoy reading it.
I just had that one person orthat one type of person in mind,
so that I could use a reallyspecific example that would make
them say, yes, this is so me.
I feel so, seen and heard.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
Yeah, and so definitely if you're an
introvert, you need this book.
But as an extrovert or as anextroverted introvert, I will
say everybody could reallybenefit from reading the book.
It's just a really good,accessible business book.
It's a really good, accessibleguide to entrepreneurship and
(38:55):
myth busting around that, aswell as just great lessons on
brand building.
So I know it's for introvertedgirls, but again, I'm giving it
to all my gals who are veryextroverted as well.
I just think everyone's goingto love it Her tone, her style.
And it's funny because Iremember when you first did my
(39:17):
copy, nicole, I was like I don'tknow if this is me yet.
I couldn't quite fit myselfinto it.
I was a little more formalstill.
I wasn't detoxed yet fully offMichelle's corporate speak and I
was like, oh, this just feelsso casual and it's so funny.
I've come so full circle.
And it was such a wonderfulplace to start for me because
(39:39):
when I realized, no wait, it hasto be conversational.
People are not looking for youto jump off from an
authoritative space, they'rerelating to you from a
conversational spot.
And that's what this book islike and that's what was so
enjoyable for me was it just waseasy to pick up, and I've
(39:59):
picked it up several times andI've read a couple pages at a
time and I pick it back up.
You don't have to think toohard, it's so easy to get
through.
So thank you for that and thankyou for the reminder that it
doesn't have to be such ahigh-browed experience of
writing to be good writing andto reach people.
In fact, the moreconversational and relatable, I
(40:22):
think, the more breakthrough youhave with the person, it sticks
with them.
I remember the stories better.
I think of the lessons that youshare and hear and they come to
mind right away and I thinkthat's what a lot of people will
appreciate, and I find thatsome of the best books out there
, if you think about it, are theeasiest reads, right.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
Yeah, for sure, because you can actually get
through them too, and recall.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
And yet for so many years just like the leadership
myth, you know we always thought, oh, it's academic and it has
to be highbrow and all this andin the end those are the harder
ones to get through and nobodyfinishes them.
Everyone buys those books andthey sit on your desk like
gentlemen in Moscow.
I could not get through thatbook to save my life Beautifully
written but hard and dense andyou know I ended up just
(41:15):
cheating and watching thelimited series on Netflix and
enjoyed every minute of it, buthave the book sitting there
years later where I'm like Icouldn't get past chapter three,
like it was just too dense.
Beautiful story but hard toread.
You talk a little bit veryhonestly about sometimes where
(41:36):
your online business experienceyou were not necessarily loving
it.
You love what you do.
You love writing, lovecopywriting, but there's the
realities that thisentrepreneurial experience can
be draining at times foreverybody, and they're also just
life happens and you can easilyfall out of love with what
(41:57):
you're doing.
Would you mind sharing there'sone story in particular.
I know two of your stories thatjust hit me right in the heart,
one I remember vividly when Iwent down.
Would you mind sharing some ofthose moments with us over the
last five years where, despiteloving what you do, you had a
realistic moment of like I'm notloving this business right now.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I will say like 99% of the bookis light and fun and
conversational and all thosethings.
And then there's one chapter Icalled it the chapter that
doesn't belong.
It's a chapter on grief andbalancing grief and business,
and the whole premise here isthat, yeah, life happens, you
can have all these goals and allthese plans, but then, surprise
(42:43):
, something happens and you justhave to shut down your business
.
And so that happened to me,started in 2022.
And so, in a matter of a yearand a half, I lost three people
really close to me.
And I mean again, I feel luckyto say this I had never
experienced grief before, like Ihad old relatives, distant
(43:03):
relatives that had passed away,but I had never been hit so hard
with grief, and the first timewas in 2022, my ex-husband so my
son is, he's now 18.
But this was when he was 15.
And my ex-husband and I hadseparated, when he was just one.
And so, of course, right afterthe divorce, there were some not
(43:24):
so nice feelings.
There were some, you know.
And so, of course, right afterthe divorce, there were some not
so nice feelings.
There were some, you knowfrustration and anger and hurt,
but then, quickly after we gotover that and we were really
great friends and people wouldsay, oh my gosh for exes.
You two are just so closebecause we would always joke and
text and every time our sonNolan had a sporting event or
school event or anything, it'slike our entourage was there.
(43:48):
We were always there for himand in 2022, it was Mother's Day
.
Corey that's my ex-husband tookhim my son golfing early in the
morning and then after that wasgoing to drop Nolan off so that
we could have Mother's Daytogether.
But then I got the call from myson that Corey had gone to the
hospital.
(44:08):
He had fallen down on the golfcourse and Nolan didn't know
what was happening.
So long story short, he had amajor brain bleed and he, you
know.
After that there were no moreconversations.
He was in a coma.
He passed away two weeks later.
It was just so shockingEverything about it
Heart-wrenching.
(44:28):
Yes, yes, and it was just.
I've been talking in the bookhow it was painful on two
accounts, because mostly for myson.
Here's this sweet boy who losthis dad that he adored in the
blink of an eye, so like hisinnocence was gone.
He probably thought I'll havemy parents forever, like he just
didn't imagine anything likethis happening.
And then at the same time, Iwas grieving this person that I
(44:53):
was so close with.
Speaker 1 (44:54):
We had such a past together and yeah it was just a
really hard time and youremained friends and co-parents.
That's such a beautiful andunique position to be in and to
be able to say we were friends.
I lost a dear, dear friend.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
Yes, that's real.
And so many times writing thisbook, like he was such a big fan
of me and my writing and wasalways saying you should do this
or you should do this, and itwas so many times writing the
book I thought I wish Corey washere, because he would have said
it's about time, like, come on,why is this not happening?
Like he just would have saidit's about time, like, come on,
(45:27):
why is this not happening?
Like he just would have been soproud.
So, yeah, I mean when thathappened, shut the business down
.
Basically I couldn't write.
I couldn't write sales copy.
While this was happening, whileI was supporting my son and just
all the things.
And then the next incidenthappened my grandma passed away
really suddenly, and hers was, Idon't want to say, easier to
digest, but she was older.
It was still very sudden, butshe was older.
(45:49):
And then, at the end of 2023,my dad passed away very suddenly
after Christmas holiday gettogether, just you know, pulled
up into the driveway, didn'teven have the chance to put the
car in park, and then he had acardiac arrest.
Speaker 1 (46:05):
I remember that.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
Three separate occasions.
I mean by the third one, againstill just as hard as the first,
but by that point, okay, I knowwhat this is.
This is the grief, and it'sgoing to come in weird and
unexpected ways and when it'shappening, you need to put your
business on hold.
And of course, I had clientsthat were totally understanding.
Yes.
So again, this chapter was justabout the reality that life and
(46:28):
business are intertwined.
So make sure you're workingwith clients who understand that
family comes first, so they'renot going to be like hey,
where's my sales page copy Rightafter somebody lost after that
happens.
Make sure you have clients whounderstand that family comes
first.
Try to have things in place inyour business where you can make
(46:48):
some passive income when youneed to shut down your business
for a bit, so you don't have tostress about money.
So, yeah, there are a fewdifferent takeaways from it, but
that was the general theme.
Speaker 1 (47:00):
I think also, it's just a reminder of like you went
through these things in fairlyquick succession and you needed
to take the time you needed totake to grieve and to be there
for your son, with your ex, butalso be there for your family
with your grandmother and yourfather, and it did not stop you
(47:24):
from getting back in the gamewhen you were ready and it
didn't stop you from having athriving business.
Your father passed away.
I remember that the holidayseason it was like end of 2023.
Here we are at the beginning of2025 and you have a book out
that you wrote starting in themiddle of 2024, if I recall
(47:47):
correctly, and it can happen.
You can go through these hardthings, they can rattle you, but
they don't have to unravel you,and that's the thing that I
really saw as I was readingabout it in this book, you
allowed yourself the space andthe time to do what you needed
to do to be a mom first, to be adaughter, to be a granddaughter
(48:12):
, and then got back to it whenyou were ready, and it was all
your waiting and your thriving.
Speaker 2 (48:22):
Yeah, well, I think honestly, maybe part of it was
that the realization, somethingwe all know, but it takes
sometimes events like this toreally hit home that life is
short.
So I'm sure on some level Ithought life is short.
Just write the book, do thething you want to do, don't wait
.
And so I mean, maybe my onlyregret is that I didn't do it
(48:43):
sooner so that those threepeople could read the book, but
yeah, they're in myacknowledgements.
Speaker 1 (48:53):
I doubt for a minute they are all looking down on you
and smiling and cheering you on.
All right.
Before we wrap, nicole, acouple of questions, a couple
last questions.
One what do you want somebodywho is maybe early stage
entrepreneur or contemplatingbecoming an entrepreneur?
What do you want them to knowabout this journey?
And then I want you to talkabout where people can find you.
(49:14):
So let's start about folks thatare sitting on the fence or
just coming out of the gates.
What do you want them to know?
Speaker 2 (49:23):
I want them to know that when they jump into the
online space, they will bebombarded with things to do,
ideas, shiny object syndrome.
They will have so many thoughtsrunning through their head like
I could do this or this or thisor this.
But they need to just kind oftune out the noise and just pick
one or two things at a time,focus on that kind of stay in
(49:44):
their lane and also know thatthey don't have to do things
just like everybody else.
They don't have to do marketingactivities that suck their soul
or they don't enjoy.
They can choose marketingactivities that feel good for
them and their energy.
Speaker 1 (49:58):
Great advice and you will have so many ideas that
will come flooding at you if youspend one hour on Instagram.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
Yes, stop the doom scrolling.
Speaker 1 (50:09):
Exactly, limit your time on social media and get
your stuff done and then gothere for ideas.
But if you start your day there, you will never get going on
all the list of things you haveto do.
This is true.
This is so true.
All right, my friend, where canpeople find you?
Speaker 2 (50:29):
They can find me on my website, nicolekeppigcom, so
it's my first and last name.
I also hang out on Instagram atNK Copywriting, and I have just
recently gone back to LinkedIn,so yeah that's been interesting
.
I've made some greatconnections already.
So yeah, I'm enjoying it theretoo.
Speaker 1 (50:46):
Fabulous, all right.
Well, we're going to make surethat we have Nicole's website or
her Instagram handle anddefinitely a link to her book on
Amazon in the show notes, so Ihope that you will all go check
it out Again.
Her name is Nicole Kepik andthe book is called Don't Ask Me
To Be Loud the IntrovertedGirl's Guide to Online Business.
Nicole, congratulations again.
(51:08):
It's been such a pleasurehaving you on the show and I
hope that you will come back.
Oh, I would love that.
Thank you To come back for yournext book.
Absolutely, sign me up.
All right, my friend, untilnext time.
Everyone, go and live yourextraordinary life.
Everyone go and live yourextraordinary life.
(51:32):
Thank you for listening totoday's episode.
If you enjoyed this podcastepisode, please take a moment to
rate and review.
If you have recommendations forfuture topics, please reach out
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Lastly, please considersupporting this podcast by
sharing it.
Together, we can reach, inspireand positively impact more
people.
Thank you.
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Speaker 2 (01:04):
Sometimes it's easy to think how am I going to stand
out in this arena if I have aquieter personality?
If I don't have this big, boldpersonality, how are people
going to find me and notice meand choose me if I'm not as loud
as everyone else?
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Hi, I'm Michelle Rios , host of the Live your
Extraordinary Life podcast.
This podcast is built on thepremise that life is meant to be
joyful, but far too often wesettle for less.
So if you've ever thought thatsomething is missing from your
life, that you were meant formore, or you simply want to
experience more joy in theeveryday, then this podcast is
(01:46):
for you.
Each week, I'll bring youcaptivating personal stories,
transformative life lessons andjuicy conversations on living
life to the fullest, with thehope to inspire you to create a
life you love on your terms,with authenticity, purpose and
connection, on your terms withauthenticity, purpose and
(02:08):
connection.
Together, we'll explore what itmeans to live an extraordinary
life, the things that hold usback and the steps we all can
take to start living our bestlives.
So come along for the journey.
It's never too late to getstarted and the world needs your
light, your light.
Hello everyone, and welcomeback to the Live your
(02:29):
Extraordinary Life podcast.
I'm your host, michelle Rios,and today I am so, so pleased to
be able to introduce you to adear friend of mine, nicole
Kepik.
Nicole is a copywriter by trade.
She has recently written a book.
The book is called Don't Ask Meto Be Loud, the Introverted
(02:50):
Girl's Guide to Online Business,and I just am so excited.
I have so many questions and Ican't wait to delve in.
So, nicole, welcome to the showshow.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Thank you, Michelle.
I am super excited too.
I think I answered your DMinvitation in record time.
Like as soon as you said, hey,do you want to be on my podcast?
I was like, yes, please countme in.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
This is an easy answer.
The truth be told, nicole and Igo back a little bit, because
Nicole actually helped me withmy website Nicole was the first
and only person that I reachedout to help me with my copy.
I was beginning to think aboutmy brand and my own space online
a couple years ago now and Iwas told do not pass, go, do not
(03:37):
collect $200.
There's only one copywriter youneed to speak to.
She will interview you, shewill get inside your head, she
will get to know you and that isNicole.
And I was like where must Ifind this magical person?
And that was it, like ourfriendship was struck and I was
so impressed with everythingthat you've done to help me with
my brand, and so I'm so excitedfor you in this book.
(04:00):
So congratulations on the book,and I would love for you to
just start with where I startwith all my guests, which is
what does it mean to you, nicole, to live your extraordinary
life?
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Extraordinary life.
Okay, I did think about thisand you know what's funny?
My first thought goes to themovie.
It's a Wonderful Life.
It keeps going back to thatmovie and, admittedly, I have
not watched it in a few years.
I used to watch it with myfamily every single Christmas.
But I just think of the maincharacter and how he thought his
life was meaningless, wasn'tworth anything, and then it was
(04:36):
revealed to him hopefully I'mnot giving anything away here
that he had impacted so manypeople throughout his life
without even knowing it.
There is this really remarkableripple effect and I remember
thinking that is extraordinary,and maybe this sounds selfish or
maybe morbid, but I thoughtwhen I pass away someday like
when I'm 99, I would love tolook down from heaven and see a
(04:58):
room full of people who saidNicole really impacted my life,
or she brought joy, or sheimpacted me in a big or small
way, and so that always stuckwith me.
And so when I think of anextraordinary life, I think of
making an impact not just onyour own self, your own
immediate family, but on otherpeople around you.
So yeah, a bit cheesy maybe,but that's what I think of.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
You know, not only not cheesy, but I think it's
what most people have come torealize, people who at least
have been out in the world andlived a certain amount of time
right Like.
I talk about this a lot, butearly on in my life it was all
about achievement, that and youknow this because you know a lot
(05:46):
about my story but how can Imake a dent in the world from an
achievement standpoint?
And then everything will fallinto place.
And while I think a lot of ushave had the privilege of living
long enough to have achieved alot of different things, that in
and of itself wasn't what mademe fulfilled.
And so, thinking about it froma how may I serve?
(06:09):
What kind of impact can I havein this world?
Definitely for me, transformedthe way I show up in the world,
and so you are among like folkon that front, nicole.
So many people have come on theshow and said once I figured out
that my story or my gifts, ormy trials and tribulations could
(06:30):
actually be in service toothers, I started to have
purpose, and that just changeseverything.
All those things that wethought, god, I don't want
anyone to know about mychallenges, or my trials and
tribulations or foibles orwhatever, end up oftentimes
being the thing that brings uscloser to others.
(06:52):
And on that front, I want youto talk a little bit, because I
know you to be a quieter soul,an introvert as they say.
So what was the impetus for youto go ahead and write this book
?
Obviously, it's targeted atintroverted women right, an
introverted girl's guide toonline business.
(07:14):
But, as I shared with you as Iread this book, I kept thinking
I'm not a full, wholeheartedintrovert and this has so much
meaning for me full,wholehearted introvert and this
has so much meaning for me.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Yeah, okay, where did this start?
I just shared on my storiestoday how I wanted to write a
book back when I was 20 yearsold and I didn't know what it
was going to be about, but Iwanted to write a book.
So this has been on my heartfor a while and I remember
thinking back then we were justchatting about this too how when
you're in your 20s, you thinksomebody who's 30 is so old, yes
, super old.
And so here I was, around 20and I wanted to write a book.
And I remember thinking Ibetter write this fast because I
(07:53):
don't want to be 30, that's soold writing a book and have an
old picture of me on the backcover of the book like, which
sounds so vain because obviously30 is not old.
But for whatever reason, Ididn't write a book back then.
And then you know, life happensyou have kids, career, all these
things.
And then, now that I've been infull-time entrepreneurship for
(08:14):
a few years, I had that idea,that magic end to write a book.
And at first the idea was towrite just a copywriting book,
since that's what I do.
Obviously it makes sense.
It makes sense for my businessfunnel.
But then I just wanted it to bea bit more holistic in the
sense of covering things that weexperience every day as
entrepreneurs.
So having to market yourself,having to create a brand, having
(08:37):
to price your services and sellyour services, and all the
mindset stuff that comes up.
So that's where my book ideakind of melded into.
And then from there I thoughtwhy not tell it through the lens
of an introvert?
Because, like you said, I am anintrovert, I'm a quieter person
and there are some challengesbeing an introvert in the online
space, because the online spacecan be really loud and bold and
(09:01):
sometimes easy to think how amI going to stand out in this
arena if I have a quieterpersonality?
If I don't have this big, boldpersonality?
How are people going to find meand notice me and choose me if
I'm not as loud as everyone else, which I see now as a bit of
scarcity mindset?
There's some thinking in thatlike there's not enough for
everyone or you know I'm notgoing to stand out.
(09:24):
But those were my originalthoughts and I wanted to write a
book that essentially toldintroverts you don't have to
change who you are.
You can be your quiet,confident self and still have a
business that's thriving andjoyful and attracts clients you
adore and pay you well to.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
So spoiler alert for everybody who has not yet had an
opportunity to pick up a copyof Nicole's book.
It is not just for introverts,it is for anyone contemplating a
business, onlineentrepreneurism the lessons, the
stories, the advice and thecounsel in this book from
(10:05):
Nicole's own experiences reallyapply to anybody.
So while introverts unitedabsolutely on this front, my
husband was all excited becausehe's an introvert too.
I said this is written for me,this is for anyone.
So I'm actually just so youknow, getting copies for all of
(10:25):
my girlfriends.
So their Galentine's gifts aregoing to be a copy of Nicole's
book.
So my personal little group ofhigh power women are all getting
a copy of Don't Ask Me To BeLoud the Introverted Girl's
Guide to Online Business.
I think it's so accessible.
I've read so many businessbooks over the years, so
accessible.
I've read so many businessbooks over the years and I'm
(10:47):
telling you guys, go getyourself a coffee, because
Nicole's conversational tone,very approachable style of
writing just draws you in.
You get to know a lot aboutNicole and as a quieter soul, I
have known you for a while anddid not know a lot that came out
in this book.
So that was, first of all, justa joy to get to know you better
, but the counsel and the advicefor most of us, I think, will
(11:11):
be really warm, welcomedreminders that it's okay,
there's no wrong way to do this,but there are some guidelines
on how to do it better, andthat's what I loved about this
book.
So there's something in herefor everyone, introverts and
extroverts alike.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
I appreciate that, and as we were chatting about
earlier my husband's reading thebook and he said the same thing
, he said, yeah, this applies toeveryone introverts, extroverts
, men or women I said, okay,sorry, but we cannot change the
title now.
Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
You might have to have come out with another book.
You might have to have afollow-up book, second edition,
or something this is true, thiscould be the start of my author
career.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Right your series.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Exactly All right.
So one of the things I learnedin this book, which actually
almost floored me because I hadno idea, is that you were a twin
.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Yes, yes, I am.
I share a fun story in the book.
I am a twin, a fraternal twin.
So my twin sister, she and Ilook nothing alike Like I have.
I mean, I have a bit of bronzeron here, but I have pretty much
pasty white skin and she hasthis nice olive complexion.
She always looks like she justcame back from Mexico.
So that, oh wow, yes, oh yeah,the darker hair, darker eyebrows
(12:29):
, but apparently we have thesame eyes.
That's the thing.
That's like.
Ok, you are not switched atbirth.
You two are sisters.
You are twins.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
And your mom had no idea she was having twins.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
No, so she was a single mother at the time.
She went to the hospitalthinking she was just having one
baby, but, alas, I thought Icame out after.
So my sister was born and thenyou know something to the effect
of oh wait, there's anotherbaby in here and there I was
making my glorious debut.
So I've asked her, and I don'tknow if she just either she
(13:04):
didn't have any ultrasounds or Ithink she had one, but our
heartbeats were in tandem.
So you know, this is back inthe late 70s.
I don't, I can't speak for thetechnology, but yeah, she just
thought she was having one baby.
She had both of us.
So quite the shock.
(13:29):
So tell me where you grew up,because I know you're from
Canada, I know you live inCanada, but your son actually
has gone to college here in theStates.
I mean, I just I remember thoseearly years with my mom.
She was a single mom until wewere seven and then she married
my dad and he raised us, adoptedus legally as his own, and then
(13:50):
we have another younger sisterand brother.
But yeah, I talk about my mom alot in the book.
I guess I do.
I give her a lot of credit.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
And what I was so impressed about is that, for
somebody whose mom wasn'texpecting two babies and was a
single mom doing it alone forthe first seven years, you talk
very positively about yourchildhood, that it was a really
warm upbringing.
I love the stories of your momtaking you, to you and your
(14:21):
sister, to church in yourmatching dresses and then going
to Tim Hortons for donuts afterchurch and I just thought, wow,
it couldn't have been easy foryour mom being a single mom,
raising two little girls sameage by themselves, even now in
today's age, raising twins withtwo parents at home, but going
(14:43):
all the way back then with lesshelp, less technology or what
have you.
I don't know if technology ishelpful or not in raising kids
anymore, but it just seemed likesuch a daunting option or
possibility and you have suchfond memories of growing up,
which was so uplifting to readabout, because it's not
something that you commonly hear.
(15:04):
Particularly if your mom was asingle mom, it must have been
harder to do all of this stuffon her own.
So kudos to your mom.
First of all, kudos to your mom?
Speaker 2 (15:15):
I hope for sure.
Yeah, it's funny.
Recently I was in this women'sgroup.
It was a church group and somany people in the room.
It was actually kind of sad.
So many of the women in theroom spoke about not feeling
loved as they grew up or feelinglike not having a strong sense
of self or being told that theyweren't worthy, and I just
remember being shocked by thisand this sounds maybe entitled
(15:38):
because I didn't know that somany women experienced this or
thought about themselves in thisway and it just really gave me
pause and made me think I hadsuch a wonderful upbringing in
the sense that obviously my momwouldn't have had a ton of money
at that time.
We didn't have all the things,but I always felt love, I always
felt worthy and a strong senseof self.
(15:58):
So, yes, I'm quiet but I'm alsoconfident and I think she gave
that to me, especially in thoseformative years.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
But I'm also confident and I think she gave
that she was enough, as thingswere, or at least she didn't
pass on those senses ofinsecurities and maybe lack of
fulfillment onto you, which Ithink is hard for a lot of
parents.
I had teenage parents.
It was not easy, I'm the oldest.
There was just a lot of baggagethat went with that role, under
those circumstances that thenhad to be processed over time to
realize like, oh wait, hold on,this is not who you are, this
(16:50):
is what you went through and youcan make different choices.
So your mom sounds like anincredible woman and what a
blessing.
Well, she would love to hearthat she has recently started
listening to my podcast so theones that I'm guesting on.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
So she will probably listen to this one and will be
delighted to hear that.
She has recently startedlistening to my podcast so the
ones that I'm guesting on.
So she will probably listen tothis one and will be delighted
to hear that.
Well, mom, you did great.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
You did great.
We love Nicole and we love thatNicole had such a wonderful,
supportive and loving upbringing, because you've raised a
confident and phenomenal womanwho's helping so many others.
So well done, mom, thank you.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Thank you to mom.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
So you talk about the fact that there are a few
things that we need to recognize.
I wanna get into the wholeintroverted piece of this
because I do wanna get ontoother parts of the book.
But what are some of the mythsthat really trip up, introverts,
when thinking about starting abusiness and what are the ones
that you think are mostimportant to bust?
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Oh my gosh, so many I know.
Personally, I thoughtintroverts are boring.
I almost thought you know, I'mnot as exciting as everyone else
, I'm not as bold as everyoneelse, so therefore I must be
boring.
And if I'm boring then peoplewill not be not as bold as
everyone else.
So therefore I must be boring,and if I'm boring then people
will not be attracted to me andmy business.
So that is one myth I had todebunk for myself and for other
(18:14):
people.
I think there's also a huge mythout there that introverts don't
like people or being aroundpeople, they're not social or
they don't have social skills.
And this one bugs me so much.
It's like, as I was typing, I'mlike, okay, do not be angry as
you're typing, but I just hateit when people are seeing that
because, as an introvert, I lovepeople, I love going to events
(18:37):
most times, I love meeting newpeople, talking to people, and
so for so long I didn't want toattach the word introvert to my
name because I thought, wellthen, people are going to think
I don't like people or I have nosocial skills.
But I've since learned that,yes, you can be an introvert.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
I want to give away just a little story because I
think it's so relatable, andthat was the grocery store aisle
conversation, like who wants tobe stopped by the neighbor you
don't know that well, or theperson that you've attended like
an event for your childsporting things or what have you
and be stuck in the grocerystore aisle chatting them up
(19:16):
when you really don't have muchmore to say than how's the
weather and how's it going.
And then you're stuck and you'relike I'm just going to read the
back of this.
You know I can't remember whatyou're reading, but pasta or
what have you actually is in thesauce and I'm thinking oh my
God, how many times have I spedup walking to avoid having a
conversation because I didn'tthink I had any energy in me to
(19:38):
have one.
So I just avoided it.
And I'm an extrovert, I'musually the ones that can't, and
I've done that too.
Sometimes you just don't haveit.
And it has nothing to do withwhether or not I like people.
I love people, but I'm notalways up for a conversation,
exactly.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
Yeah, sometimes you have to, you know, quickly move
to the next aisle and pretend tobe immersed and engrossed in
this back panel of a label thatyou've already read.
So, yeah, sometimes you justcan't with people.
I will say that.
Yeah, I will say that, yeah, Imean, sometimes you just have to
.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
All right, let's go.
Let's go.
One more myth bust.
So we know like my husband isan introvert and I always joke
he was made for the pandemictimes because nothing really
changed for him, in the sense ofhe's happy if we have plans,
but he's also happy if we don'thave social plans.
Like it doesn't really make orbreak his level of happiness,
(20:32):
whereas for me there was somelevel of I haven't seen people
other than you.
I need to see other people.
And he was like okay, if youwant to.
But I could tell I was like ohmy God, there are some people
who are just made, designed in away that you really could go
months on end without talking toother people.
And he's like or I could like,I'm okay, like it doesn't change
(20:54):
how I look at things.
That to me, was a blessing.
I was like he's ideal for thisscenario.
He, out of everyone, fared thebest.
I, on the other hand, was likewe need to do another Zoom call
and I'm tired of Zoom.
I have to see people.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Yeah, and he sounds very easy-brizzy and I would
probably go crazy if thepandemic happened again and it
was month on end.
Yes, I would be desperatelywanting to see people.
But, to answer your question,another introvert myth is that
introverts can't be greatleaders.
So I talk about that in thebook too.
But my caveat to that issometimes introverts don't want
(21:31):
to be leaders in the traditionalsense, At least in my
experience.
I didn't want to be a manager ordirector in the corporate field
and I know a lot of people arestriving to climb that ladder.
But there were a couple oftimes when I was promoted from
senior copywriter to marketingmanager and I didn't enjoy it.
All of a sudden I was takenaway from the writing I love to
(21:54):
do and suddenly told okay, nowyou're managing 10 people and
yeah, can you picture memanaging 10 people and having
those awkward conversations like, okay, you've come in late to
work again, we need to sit downand talk about this.
Like I am the mostnon-confrontational person and
so I didn't want to be a leaderin the traditional sense, in the
(22:14):
corporate sense, but in theonline space I think introverts
make great leaders, and not tosay they don't.
In corporate space.
There are many greatintroverted leaders there, but
me personally, I would prefer tobe a thought leader.
So I'm not leading people, I'mnot doing performance reviews,
all that stuff I had no interestin doing.
But I can be a thought leaderin sharing my expertise and
(22:37):
experience.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Well, and I think there's a new appreciation that
didn't exist even probably adecade ago, about the fact that
quiet leadership activelylistens.
There's something to be said.
Like you know, we grew up in thesame era and I think there's
(22:59):
this sense of success andleadership looked a certain way.
It had a strong opinion, it wasarticulate, it was louder.
Nobody spoke when the leaderwas speaking, like we knew who
was in charge, and it was thatpresence that went with the
leadership role of they're atough cookie or you don't want
(23:20):
to get on their bad side.
They're willing to do the quoteunquote hard things which might
require letting someone go orgiving them difficult
information, and they werecomfortable with it.
And I think over time we'vecome to realize sometimes you
end up just then selecting morepeople like that to leadership
(23:40):
because you're looking for acertain type, versus actually
looking for people who have boththe competencies in the work so
that they can train otherpeople and the ability to listen
, which I've now realized and,quite frankly, got there in a
(24:00):
somewhat circuitous route myself.
Listening was so important tobecoming a good leader and yet
most leaders spend most of theirtime talking to people, not
listening.
Right, yes, yes for sure?
Speaker 2 (24:16):
Yeah, I would say the introverts make great listeners
.
Not that extroverts don't, butI think because introverts
aren't, their priority isn'tbeing the center of attention
usually.
So they're okay to sit back andlisten and they enjoy sitting
back and listening.
And then, of course, the moreyou listen, the more empathetic
you are, the better leader youcan be.
(24:37):
You can provide bettersolutions for the problem that
your employees or clients orcustomers are dealing with.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Yeah, Now we have very similar backgrounds also in
the sense that we both camefrom the creative agency world.
So I came from more traditionaladvertising and public
relations.
You were in a creative agency.
I just think that takes acertain type of personality to
survive that environment overthe years, because when you're
(25:07):
in professional services of anykind, but particularly in larger
organizations, you can getdrowned out without even
realizing it if you don't have acertain type of personality and
it's filled with personalitiesright Bigger than life
personalities and creativeagencies.
So it's an interesting place tohave spent time in your career.
(25:28):
When did you know that it wastime for you to try something
different?
Speaker 2 (25:41):
What was the turning point for you to say I want to
go and become an entrepreneur.
Yeah, it was a slow burn for me.
It was certainly not waking up,know, waking up one morning and
seeing the heavens part and,like Nicole, this is what you
should do.
Years ago, probably about 10years prior to leaving corporate
or creative agency life, I hadstarted side hustling, a
freelance writing business.
So I was doing that on the sideas well as working nine to five
(26:03):
for my senior copywriter roleand over the years I just kind
of did it for extra trip moneyand, you know, serving audiences
or serving companies thatdidn't have an in-house
copywriter, like I was for mynine to five.
So I was just doing this on theside and never really had the
intention of taking it full time.
I don't even think I thought ofthat as an option for me,
(26:24):
because I grew up probablysaying, like you, that you go to
school you get a nine to fivejob.
So I had this nine to fivecareer, I had this side hustle
and then life just got reallybusy.
It got super busy in the sensethat you know, I was working
side hustling, my son was inbaseball and hockey at the same
time and rep.
So it was like traveling out oftown on weeknights and weekends
(26:48):
.
I was doing freelanceassignments on nights and
weekends.
What else?
Like?
There was just a lot of workand life stuff happening.
And it came to a point where Iwas like, okay, this is too busy
.
I've got my full-time career.
Oh, I was also commuting atleast an hour each way to work,
so it's like it's like allmoments of the day and night
were taken and I was just.
(27:09):
I felt like I was working allthe time when I wasn't at the
hockey arena or baseballdiamonds.
So I just thought, okay, one ofthese things has to give.
I either quit my full-time jobor I stopped my freelance
writing business.
And it's like at the time Iwasn't quite ready to go all in
on one or the other.
So I approached my boss and Isaid, hey, can I go from five
(27:30):
days a week to three days a week?
And they said yes, because, forwhatever reason, they said yes
and that gave me the chance tokind of baby step into
entrepreneurship.
So I did that for maybe a year.
But then my freelance business,my side hustle, just kept
getting busier and busier andthen I thought you know what
it's time I've done this sidehustling for too long, for long
(27:54):
enough.
So I had those conversationswith my husband and he's you
know the very logical one like,well, but we've always had two
full-time incomes and is thetime right, are you sure?
I'm like, yes, I'm sure.
So finally, right before thepandemic or right after it, I
can't remember.
Yeah, I left corporate creativeagency full-time life and went
(28:15):
all in with my business.
So again, it wasn't like onemoment in time.
It's just kind of a slow buildof you're creating this busy
life and the whole point ofhaving your own business is to
have more freedom andflexibility.
Busy life and the whole pointof having your own business is
to have more freedom andflexibility so something needs
to change.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
So how long has it been now?
Are we in year four or five?
Speaker 2 (28:35):
uh, I think it.
Well, end of 2020.
So yeah, pandemic was alreadyin effect.
So many people quit theircorporate jobs because of the
pandemic.
It just happened to be that wayfor me, our, my company that I
was working for, we were allworking from home, and then
maybe that was part of it in thesense where I thought I won't
go crazy if I work from home allthe time.
(28:56):
So, yeah, it just helped memake the decision.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
I love it.
All right, let's talk aboutcopywriting, because I think
there are a lot ofmisconceptions when
entrepreneurs get out into thespace of like when they need to
have a copywriter or when theymight want to consider copy.
And let's talk a little bitabout when is the best time to
(29:19):
engage a copywriter.
Why would someone want to dothat?
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Yeah, great question.
I would say, before investingin a copywriter, it's really
important to know who youraudience is, know your audience
and what you want to sell.
And it sounds so simplistic,but if you're still deciding
those things, then you mightinvest in a copywriter and then
a month or two later think, oh,but actually I want to serve
this audience or have theseoffers audience or, you know,
(29:50):
have these offers, and it's notto say, the copywriter can't go
and change the copy for you.
You can evolve, but it's justmight be a waste of money in the
beginning to invest so much ina copywriter.
So I would say, yeah, make sureyou are clear on who you are
serving and what you're offering, and then, of course, your
business will evolve.
And, yes, you'll need to changeyour messaging at some points,
but as long as you have thatfoundation there, the timing is
right.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
And let me tell you, the really great thing about
Nicole's book is she actuallywalks you through a lot of the
branding 101 questions thatsomeone needs to ask themselves
when they're starting an onlinebusiness.
They're getting into theentrepreneurial space.
There are things that you willbe thinking about or need to
think about in order to makesure that you have a product or
(30:31):
service that's actually targetedand in service of a specific
audience, and so there are greatquestions in here.
The interesting thing isotherwise, people like Nicole
have to boil the ocean for you,and it's funny because I will
say from my own experience, foryou.
And it's funny because I willsay from my own experience.
(30:52):
Some of us start off with like Iwant to serve everyone, and
Nicole had to go down that routewith me in the beginning, where
I was like everybody, there'snobody I don't want to serve,
and she's like, okay, all right,well, we'll let you swallow
that for a little while and seehow that goes, and then let's
talk some more.
And then, over time, you startto realize like wait, not only
are you not doing yourself anyfavors, it's making it really
(31:14):
hard for people to find you,because there's nothing
distinguishing or that sets youapart, because if you're all
things to all people, you'reactually no one, nothing to
anyone, as they say.
And it's funny because we wereboth happenstance, then in a
kind of a brand buildingmastermind together where we
(31:37):
were talking about audiences andniches, and from two people who
come from backgrounds thatthink about marketing and that
think about audience, and forcedto do that, we still found the
benefit of being in a group ofwomen that were talking about
what does it mean to really bein service?
(31:58):
What does your audience looklike?
Well, what is the avatar?
What are their challenges?
What are their problems?
What are you solving for?
Here we were, for me, 25 yearslater, still having these
conversations I was having withclients, now having them with
myself for my own business.
So I found it so beneficial tobe in that circle and be in
(32:19):
Malika's group with you andhearing how everyone was
evolving their business.
And even then I've thought,well, nicole's business is clear
, it's copywriting.
And then she's like, hold mybeer.
Copywriting for certain people,not just copywriting.
Copywriting for other folks inthe online space, specifically
(32:43):
women who are coaches andspecifically doing mindset work
or health coaching, and I waslike, damn, she's really clear.
And then it was in sales copyon top of it was like blown away
.
At that point I was like, well,I'm glad that my website's done
.
We got her for that.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Oh, geez, yeah.
And just when you think you'redone niching, if you go into
Malika's world, she will haveyou niche some more.
Yeah, she had me niche too.
Well, she didn't have me.
She said what do you enjoywriting the most?
And I'm like I love it all.
I love writing it all.
But somehow we landed on salespage copy, which is funny
because had you asked me beforeare you good at sales or have
(33:22):
you ever taken a sales courseLike sales?
I don't associate myself withsales, but I love writing sales
copy because I love doing it ina way that's fun and friendly
and feel good.
So yes, we need.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
For me, it's captivating.
Here's the thing Nicole may bea quiet presence, but her copy
just is so inspiring, itcaptures your attention.
Her copy does all the work forher.
That's the great thing, like ifyou have a good copywriter, you
have somebody who reallyunderstands who you're trying to
(33:55):
reach and can get into theirmindset and understand what it
is they need to hear.
She can help bring your service, your business, to life in a
way that no other way, like wetend to overthink and, I think,
spin our wheels a bit, notwanting to leave anybody out.
Then there's just a lack ofclarity, like what do you really
(34:15):
do and what do you reallyprovide?
And that's Nicole's specialtyis really getting you to get in
there, roll up your sleeves andbe clear about what you're
solving for.
And it's funny because, likeyou said, it's not that folks
outside of that avatar, outsideof those problems you're solving
for, won't find you.
(34:35):
They will.
There are adjacent industriesor adjacent things and people
will just, I think,energetically find you and want
to work with you.
That's what I think happens.
And now I'm convinced there arepeople like Nicole that do so
well in the online space, notbecause they're loud, not
because they're out postingevery day, but because they're
(34:58):
now in a repeat referralbusiness.
Because once you get anopportunity to work with her and
see what she can do literallyinterviewing you, getting you to
write about yourself and thenasking really good questions and
then she goes off and does hermagic and then you come back and
work together on refining it,but seeing yourself in a new way
(35:21):
, in a new way Some of the stuffI was like I don't know if
that's me, nicole, I have tothink about it, I have to think
on it.
And it was so funny.
I'd find myself going yeah, shedoes know me better than I
thought she did.
She does get it way more than Ithought.
How did she get that?
From just the questions thatshe asked me, there was such a
nuance and an appreciation forboth my experience and my
(35:43):
knowledge and what I wasbringing to the table that it
just made me feel, quite frankly, there's no other word for it
other than safe, because whenyou're putting yourself out
there in the online world andyou are selling a product or
service, you are taking on alevel of exposure right.
Are people going to like it?
(36:03):
Are people going to want this?
Are people going to need this,and so you need to have somebody
work with you and guide you ina way that you start to reflect
back the worth and the value youknow is there.
But there's this trepidationwhen you're right about to push,
go and have everyone see it,and Nicole does such a beautiful
job at that.
(36:24):
That's probably the best word Ifelt very seen heard.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
That's probably the best word.
I felt very seen, heard andsafe when I was working with you
on my copy.
Wow, well, thank you.
Can I just bottle all that up?
I'm so glad you felt that wayand I think you know to your
point earlier.
I think sometimes we're just soclose to our businesses that it
does help to have an outsidercome in, whether it's a
copywriter, designer or coach.
We're just too close to thingssometimes, so that outside
(36:54):
perspective is really valuable.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
What do you think, from a brand building
perspective, are a couple ofthings people may either
overlook when starting out inthe entrepreneurial space or not
put enough credence in that youwant them to be reminded of.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
Well, I would say some of those branding elements,
like really thinking about whatare your values, what is your
vision, what is your mission,doing some of that foundational
work, some of that strategy work, so you can build a rock solid
brand.
And then, once you have that inplace, it'll be so much easier
to do your messaging and yourcopy, because you're not just
winging it, you have that strongfoundation, you know what you
(37:34):
stand for, you know what yourbrand personality is, the tone
of voice, the look and feel, andthen everything goes off from
there.
And then, if you have otherpeople on your team, like a VA
or a designer, all roads wouldlead back to that brand strategy
, so everybody's on the samepage.
And then, in turn, all of yourmarketing touch points you know
social media, email, sales pageseverything is aligned and
(37:56):
cohesive.
So, yeah, definitely startingoff with that brand strategy
work and then again, just reallynoting knowing who your
audience is, knowing them well,so that your copy isn't just
watered down, so that it'sreally specific.
So for my book, for example, yes, I wrote it with introverts in
mind, female introverts, so thelanguage is tailored just to
(38:17):
them, although, like you said,yes, people on the peripheral,
will still enjoy reading it.
I just had that one person orthat one type of person in mind,
so that I could use a reallyspecific example that would make
them say, yes, this is so me.
I feel so, seen and heard.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
Yeah, and so definitely if you're an
introvert, you need this book.
But as an extrovert or as anextroverted introvert, I will
say everybody could reallybenefit from reading the book.
It's just a really good,accessible business book.
It's a really good, accessibleguide to entrepreneurship and
(38:55):
myth busting around that, aswell as just great lessons on
brand building.
So I know it's for introvertedgirls, but again, I'm giving it
to all my gals who are veryextroverted as well.
I just think everyone's goingto love it Her tone, her style.
And it's funny because Iremember when you first did my
(39:17):
copy, nicole, I was like I don'tknow if this is me yet.
I couldn't quite fit myselfinto it.
I was a little more formalstill.
I wasn't detoxed yet fully offMichelle's corporate speak and I
was like, oh, this just feelsso casual and it's so funny.
I've come so full circle.
And it was such a wonderfulplace to start for me because
(39:39):
when I realized, no wait, it hasto be conversational.
People are not looking for youto jump off from an
authoritative space, they'rerelating to you from a
conversational spot.
And that's what this book islike and that's what was so
enjoyable for me was it just waseasy to pick up, and I've
(39:59):
picked it up several times andI've read a couple pages at a
time and I pick it back up.
You don't have to think toohard, it's so easy to get
through.
So thank you for that and thankyou for the reminder that it
doesn't have to be such ahigh-browed experience of
writing to be good writing andto reach people.
In fact, the moreconversational and relatable, I
(40:22):
think, the more breakthrough youhave with the person, it sticks
with them.
I remember the stories better.
I think of the lessons that youshare and hear and they come to
mind right away and I thinkthat's what a lot of people will
appreciate, and I find thatsome of the best books out there
, if you think about it, are theeasiest reads, right.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
Yeah, for sure, because you can actually get
through them too, and recall.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
And yet for so many years just like the leadership
myth, you know we always thought, oh, it's academic and it has
to be highbrow and all this andin the end those are the harder
ones to get through and nobodyfinishes them.
Everyone buys those books andthey sit on your desk like
gentlemen in Moscow.
I could not get through thatbook to save my life Beautifully
written but hard and dense andyou know I ended up just
(41:15):
cheating and watching thelimited series on Netflix and
enjoyed every minute of it, buthave the book sitting there
years later where I'm like Icouldn't get past chapter three,
like it was just too dense.
Beautiful story but hard toread.
You talk a little bit veryhonestly about sometimes where
(41:36):
your online business experienceyou were not necessarily loving
it.
You love what you do.
You love writing, lovecopywriting, but there's the
realities that thisentrepreneurial experience can
be draining at times foreverybody, and they're also just
life happens and you can easilyfall out of love with what
(41:57):
you're doing.
Would you mind sharing there'sone story in particular.
I know two of your stories thatjust hit me right in the heart,
one I remember vividly when Iwent down.
Would you mind sharing some ofthose moments with us over the
last five years where, despiteloving what you do, you had a
realistic moment of like I'm notloving this business right now.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I will say like 99% of the bookis light and fun and
conversational and all thosethings.
And then there's one chapter Icalled it the chapter that
doesn't belong.
It's a chapter on grief andbalancing grief and business,
and the whole premise here isthat, yeah, life happens, you
can have all these goals and allthese plans, but then, surprise
(42:43):
, something happens and you justhave to shut down your business
.
And so that happened to me,started in 2022.
And so, in a matter of a yearand a half, I lost three people
really close to me.
And I mean again, I feel luckyto say this I had never
experienced grief before, like Ihad old relatives, distant
(43:03):
relatives that had passed away,but I had never been hit so hard
with grief, and the first timewas in 2022, my ex-husband so my
son is, he's now 18.
But this was when he was 15.
And my ex-husband and I hadseparated, when he was just one.
And so, of course, right afterthe divorce, there were some not
(43:24):
so nice feelings.
There were some, you know.
And so, of course, right afterthe divorce, there were some not
so nice feelings.
There were some, you knowfrustration and anger and hurt,
but then, quickly after we gotover that and we were really
great friends and people wouldsay, oh my gosh for exes.
You two are just so closebecause we would always joke and
text and every time our sonNolan had a sporting event or
school event or anything, it'slike our entourage was there.
(43:48):
We were always there for himand in 2022, it was Mother's Day
.
Corey that's my ex-husband tookhim my son golfing early in the
morning and then after that wasgoing to drop Nolan off so that
we could have Mother's Daytogether.
But then I got the call from myson that Corey had gone to the
hospital.
(44:08):
He had fallen down on the golfcourse and Nolan didn't know
what was happening.
So long story short, he had amajor brain bleed and he, you
know.
After that there were no moreconversations.
He was in a coma.
He passed away two weeks later.
It was just so shockingEverything about it
Heart-wrenching.
(44:28):
Yes, yes, and it was just.
I've been talking in the bookhow it was painful on two
accounts, because mostly for myson.
Here's this sweet boy who losthis dad that he adored in the
blink of an eye, so like hisinnocence was gone.
He probably thought I'll havemy parents forever, like he just
didn't imagine anything likethis happening.
And then at the same time, Iwas grieving this person that I
(44:53):
was so close with.
Speaker 1 (44:54):
We had such a past together and yeah it was just a
really hard time and youremained friends and co-parents.
That's such a beautiful andunique position to be in and to
be able to say we were friends.
I lost a dear, dear friend.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
Yes, that's real.
And so many times writing thisbook, like he was such a big fan
of me and my writing and wasalways saying you should do this
or you should do this, and itwas so many times writing the
book I thought I wish Corey washere, because he would have said
it's about time, like, come on,why is this not happening?
Like he just would have saidit's about time, like, come on,
(45:27):
why is this not happening?
Like he just would have been soproud.
So, yeah, I mean when thathappened, shut the business down
.
Basically I couldn't write.
I couldn't write sales copy.
While this was happening, whileI was supporting my son and just
all the things.
And then the next incidenthappened my grandma passed away
really suddenly, and hers was, Idon't want to say, easier to
digest, but she was older.
It was still very sudden, butshe was older.
(45:49):
And then, at the end of 2023,my dad passed away very suddenly
after Christmas holiday gettogether, just you know, pulled
up into the driveway, didn'teven have the chance to put the
car in park, and then he had acardiac arrest.
Speaker 1 (46:05):
I remember that.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
Three separate occasions.
I mean by the third one, againstill just as hard as the first,
but by that point, okay, I knowwhat this is.
This is the grief, and it'sgoing to come in weird and
unexpected ways and when it'shappening, you need to put your
business on hold.
And of course, I had clientsthat were totally understanding.
Yes.
So again, this chapter was justabout the reality that life and
(46:28):
business are intertwined.
So make sure you're workingwith clients who understand that
family comes first, so they'renot going to be like hey,
where's my sales page copy Rightafter somebody lost after that
happens.
Make sure you have clients whounderstand that family comes
first.
Try to have things in place inyour business where you can make
(46:48):
some passive income when youneed to shut down your business
for a bit, so you don't have tostress about money.
So, yeah, there are a fewdifferent takeaways from it, but
that was the general theme.
Speaker 1 (47:00):
I think also, it's just a reminder of like you went
through these things in fairlyquick succession and you needed
to take the time you needed totake to grieve and to be there
for your son, with your ex, butalso be there for your family
with your grandmother and yourfather, and it did not stop you
(47:24):
from getting back in the gamewhen you were ready and it
didn't stop you from having athriving business.
Your father passed away.
I remember that the holidayseason it was like end of 2023.
Here we are at the beginning of2025 and you have a book out
that you wrote starting in themiddle of 2024, if I recall
(47:47):
correctly, and it can happen.
You can go through these hardthings, they can rattle you, but
they don't have to unravel you,and that's the thing that I
really saw as I was readingabout it in this book, you
allowed yourself the space andthe time to do what you needed
to do to be a mom first, to be adaughter, to be a granddaughter
(48:12):
, and then got back to it whenyou were ready, and it was all
your waiting and your thriving.
Speaker 2 (48:22):
Yeah, well, I think honestly, maybe part of it was
that the realization, somethingwe all know, but it takes
sometimes events like this toreally hit home that life is
short.
So I'm sure on some level Ithought life is short.
Just write the book, do thething you want to do, don't wait
.
And so I mean, maybe my onlyregret is that I didn't do it
(48:43):
sooner so that those threepeople could read the book, but
yeah, they're in myacknowledgements.
Speaker 1 (48:53):
I doubt for a minute they are all looking down on you
and smiling and cheering you on.
All right.
Before we wrap, nicole, acouple of questions, a couple
last questions.
One what do you want somebodywho is maybe early stage
entrepreneur or contemplatingbecoming an entrepreneur?
What do you want them to knowabout this journey?
And then I want you to talkabout where people can find you.
(49:14):
So let's start about folks thatare sitting on the fence or
just coming out of the gates.
What do you want them to know?
Speaker 2 (49:23):
I want them to know that when they jump into the
online space, they will bebombarded with things to do,
ideas, shiny object syndrome.
They will have so many thoughtsrunning through their head like
I could do this or this or thisor this.
But they need to just kind oftune out the noise and just pick
one or two things at a time,focus on that kind of stay in
(49:44):
their lane and also know thatthey don't have to do things
just like everybody else.
They don't have to do marketingactivities that suck their soul
or they don't enjoy.
They can choose marketingactivities that feel good for
them and their energy.
Speaker 1 (49:58):
Great advice and you will have so many ideas that
will come flooding at you if youspend one hour on Instagram.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
Yes, stop the doom scrolling.
Speaker 1 (50:09):
Exactly, limit your time on social media and get
your stuff done and then gothere for ideas.
But if you start your day there, you will never get going on
all the list of things you haveto do.
This is true.
This is so true.
All right, my friend, where canpeople find you?
Speaker 2 (50:29):
They can find me on my website, nicolekeppigcom, so
it's my first and last name.
I also hang out on Instagram atNK Copywriting, and I have just
recently gone back to LinkedIn,so yeah that's been interesting
.
I've made some greatconnections already.
So yeah, I'm enjoying it theretoo.
Speaker 1 (50:46):
Fabulous, all right.
Well, we're going to make surethat we have Nicole's website or
her Instagram handle anddefinitely a link to her book on
Amazon in the show notes, so Ihope that you will all go check
it out Again.
Her name is Nicole Kepik andthe book is called Don't Ask Me
To Be Loud the IntrovertedGirl's Guide to Online Business.
Nicole, congratulations again.
(51:08):
It's been such a pleasurehaving you on the show and I
hope that you will come back.
Oh, I would love that.
Thank you To come back for yournext book.
Absolutely, sign me up.
All right, my friend, untilnext time.
Everyone, go and live yourextraordinary life.
Everyone go and live yourextraordinary life.
(51:32):
Thank you for listening totoday's episode.
If you enjoyed this podcastepisode, please take a moment to
rate and review.
If you have recommendations forfuture topics, please reach out
to me atmichelleriosofficialcom.
Lastly, please considersupporting this podcast by
sharing it.
Together, we can reach, inspireand positively impact more
people.
Thank you.
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