October 28, 2025 • 50 mins
The love you want isn’t unlocked by “trying harder.” It’s unlocked by teaching your nervous system a new story. I sit down with psychotherapist and bestselling author Jessica Baum to unpack why we repeat painful relationship patterns, how anxious and avoidant attachment styles differ, and what it takes to build emotional security that lasts. If you’ve ever chased butterflies, confused intensity for chemistry, or felt “too much” or “not enough,” this conversation reframes it all with compassion and science.
We break down the difference between anxious, avoidant, and disorganized attachment in real life—not as labels but as adaptations to early caregiving. Jessica explains why talk therapy alone often stalls and how somatic memory lives in sensations like tight chests and dropped stomachs. You’ll learn how co-regulation with safe “anchors” rewires your capacity to self-regulate, why safety can feel unfamiliar at first, and how to tell when you’re stuck in a trauma bond built on fantasy and control.
Jessica also introduces her wheel of attachment, a practical map for spotting where you slide under stress and how to find your way back to security. We share daily practices to extend your exhale, widen the gap between trigger and reaction, and make better choices without abandoning yourself. Along the way, Jessica opens up about her own path—staying with the work even when a partner wouldn’t—and the hard, hopeful truth: real change is possible, but not by bypassing the body.
If you’re ready to stop reenacting the past and start creating relationships that feel calm, clear, and connected, press play. Then share this with a friend who needs a steady anchor today. Subscribe, leave a review, and tell us: what’s one pattern you’re ready to rewrite?
To order Jessica's newest book SAFE: Coming Home to Yourself and Others, and access the Wheel of Attachment referenced in our interview please use this link: https://jessicabaumlmhc.com/interview
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
You use the video.
Go ahead.
What's that?
You use the video as well?
I use the video as well.
Yeah.
Make any adjustments you needto.
We'll edit the front end asneeded.
No, this works.
This is fine.
Great.
All right.
Welcome back to another episodeof the Live Your Extraordinary
Life podcast.
(00:20):
I'm your host, Michelle Rios.
And today's conversation is oneI've been really looking forward
to because it's about somethingwe all crave yet often struggle
to sustain authentic connection.
My guest today is Jessica Baum,a licensed psychotherapist,
relationship coach, and thefounder of the Relationship
(00:42):
Institute of Palm Beach.
She's also the author of thebest-selling book, Anxiously
Attached, Becoming More Securein Life and Love.
And her upcoming book, Safe,Coming Home to Yourself and
Others, takes her work evendeeper, helping people
understand that our struggles inlove aren't flaws or failings,
(01:06):
but psychological patterns wiredinto our nervous system.
So Jessica's approach blendssome neuroscience, attachment
theory, and some body-basedhealing to help people move from
anxious or avoidant patternsinto earned secure attachment so
they can show up with morecompassion, safety, and
(01:27):
emotional freedom, both inrelationships and within
themselves.
So if you've ever wonderedwhat's keeping you from having
the love that you really desirein your life or attracting the
same dynamics over and overagain, this episode is right for
you.
Let's dive in.
Jessica, welcome to the show.
(01:48):
Thank you so much for having me.
All right, let's delve right in.
You've said that many of ourrelationships, our relationship
struggles in general, aren'treally personality problems, but
they're nervous system patterns.
Can you unpack that a bit?
SPEAKER_01 (02:06):
Yeah, I mean, I don't know where you got that
quote, but um usually it's notpersonality.
Normally, what we struggle inrelationships is getting close
and feeling safe, and what isthat is different for every
single person based on ourearlier experiences and how that
shows up.
I wouldn't say it's nervoussystem problems or patterns, but
(02:28):
it's it's the combination of twopeople's embedded patterns and
how that shows up within therelationship context, if that
makes sense.
SPEAKER_00 (02:34):
All right.
So let's let's go a little bitdeeper into why do we keep
repeating painful relationshipdynamics even when we quote
unquote know betterintellectually?
SPEAKER_01 (02:47):
Yeah.
So like when we're younger, umwe internalize our connections,
our earliest connections aroundsafety, our earliest attachment
patterns.
Um, we make up stories aboutourselves based on the patterns
that we are internalizing.
So if we feel left a lot, we canfeel abandoned, and that can get
(03:09):
internalized, or if we feel umcertain things get internalized
in our soma, in our body, andthey become the familiar, they
become the paradigm that we'vegrown up with.
It becomes what our bodies knowto expect.
I know relationships are gonnabe painful, I know conflict is
gonna be terrible, I know thatI'm always gonna be left, or I
(03:30):
know that I'm gonna have safety.
Like, so we internalizepatterns, experiences, um, and
it becomes our familiar.
So it becomes what our bodyknows to expect in
relationships, and we tend to,without being conscious or
healing, we tend to gravitatetowards people who resonate with
(03:53):
that because it feels familiar.
So we'll recreate the familiarif we haven't healed, because
it's what feels right for ourbody and it's what we've learned
to like expect.
So if I expect that people arealways gonna turn their back on
me because I've experienced alot a lot in childhood, that is
unfortunately my familiarpattern.
(04:15):
And ironically, it's what I willseek out.
I will seek out people who dothat because it resonates with
what I know to expect until Iheal it.
So that's why it can feel likeon repeat.
Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_00 (04:27):
That makes a lot of sense.
And in fact, I have a friend,and I want to use this example
because I think it fits exactlywhat you're talking about, who
experienced divorce very earlyon in her life.
She was very small when herparents separated and um
remarried.
And her experience has beenhabitual relationships where the
man eventually leaves, verysimilar to the feeling that her
(04:51):
father left the home when shewas quite small.
And we talk about that a lot.
Like if we know this, why is itthis keeps showing up?
And how did how do we change thedirection of her particular
experience with love?
SPEAKER_01 (05:07):
Yeah, I mean, that's a great example.
So, and I I feel like we end upcreating the very thing that we
fear because the wound lives inus.
So if the wound of I'm gonna beleft lives in us, we might pick
someone in the beginning thatfeels like they're never gonna
leave us.
But if they, if they, if theyhave a wound and usually and
(05:28):
their adaptive strategy is toflee, right?
We tend to we attract them.
Um, we're looking to confirm ourbelief system.
So we're looking to confirm Ihave this inherent feeling that
I will be left.
I know what that feels like inmy body.
And if you the wind just blowsin that direction, I'm
confirming a belief system thatI am gonna be left.
(05:50):
And then that fear usuallydrives, can drive that person to
leaving.
So we can recreate it that way.
And we're ironically trying toprotect ourselves from never
feeling like we are left.
So the healing of that is to bewith the original feeling of
being left, you know, and kindof healing that so that we don't
try to fill that void withsomeone who will show us that
(06:12):
they're this like it's a reallygreat example.
And I don't know if I'msometimes when we meet someone
new, we think, oh my God, thisis the answer.
This person is never gonna leaveme, they're gonna show up
perfectly.
We're projecting the unmetneeds, or you know, I'm never
gonna have to feel that painagain.
Right.
The temporary fix, becauseeventually they're gonna do
(06:34):
something that's gonna activatethe pain that is already in
there.
And then we think, oh my God,here I am again, when really
that person's just activatingthe original wound.
Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_00 (06:43):
Yeah, it makes perfect sense.
So it goes back to you have todo the inner work.
And a lot of times you thinkyou've done the inner work, and
yet those same patterns exist.
SPEAKER_01 (06:54):
So yeah, you have to do the inner work, and our
psyche looks for ways to avoidit to protect us from the pain.
So if I buy into the fantasythat someone is gonna choose me
or someone's not gonna leave me,or I'm gonna find that person
that's not gonna do that for me,that's a fantasy that helps
protect me from this happened tome and it lives in my body, and
(07:16):
I've been very deeply left orvery deeply abandoned.
So instead of trying to fix itby finding someone who will
never do that, I actually haveto be with the original wound of
that.
SPEAKER_00 (07:28):
So, okay, how do we get out of that scenario?
What's the path forward?
unknown (07:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (07:34):
So in like I talk about this in chapter seven, but
like I think like some peoplelistening might like relate to
like a trauma bond kind offeeling.
A thousand percent.
Yeah.
And I think the best way I candescribe trauma bond is like if
I think this person could justact differently, I'd be okay.
Right.
So we buy into this like fantasyof if my partner just didn't do
(07:57):
this, or if they could just showup like they did in the
beginning, I'd be okay.
And we can stay stuck um foryears in cycles like that with
the potential or the beginning.
And what we need to really startto recognize is what is this
person doing that is waking upsomething in me that lives in my
body, and when have I originallyexperienced that so that I could
(08:21):
get out of the dynamic ofneeding them to show up a
certain way and get to let go ofthe control, which is really
hard because we want to controlthe other person, which is
totally normal and natural, andget to what is what are they
waking up in me that's moreabout my earlier wounding?
And can I start to focus on thatrather than them?
So I can get to um theunconscious pieces and become
(08:44):
more awakened by what's reallywaking up in me, not just what's
happening in the here and now.
SPEAKER_00 (08:50):
That's really, really helpful.
All right, let's let's talk alittle bit about the difference
between anxious attachment andavoidant attachment, because
we've heard a lot about theseterms.
You see it out there a lot.
Um, I think one of the onlineinfluencers, Gillian Turecki,
talks a lot about the avoidantattachment style.
But I'm really curious if youcould help articulate the
(09:13):
difference between the two.
And then what does it actuallylook like in real life?
SPEAKER_01 (09:20):
Yeah, I mean, so there are four attachment
styles.
There's also disorganized,sometimes called disfearful, but
and I talk about this, I unpackthis deeply in the book, but an
anxious attachment pattern is achild whose primary caregiver is
inconsistent.
So that can mean that they aredysregulated sometimes,
(09:42):
sometimes so overwhelmed withwork, sometimes there, sometimes
not there, right?
So the hallmark for anxious isinconsistency.
So the baby learns to leavetheir kind of energetic system
and track mom's nervous system.
So they can move towards mom toregulate her system as a way to
(10:02):
stay in connection.
So they, you know, their nervoussystem gets bigger, we move
towards, we're fixers, we try toco-regulate.
Um, and we can usually tell whatthe other person is feeling,
their needs, we can meet theirneeds because the way that that
baby stays in connection ismeeting the need of the primary
caregiver.
(10:23):
So that's a very differentadaptation than avoidant, like a
true avoidant, and there'savoidant protectors, but a true
avoidant baby is in a home wherethe primary caregivers are more
in their left hemisphere,they're more left shifted.
And so they might be likechecking the tasks at hand and
feeding the baby, but they'renot deeply connecting.
(10:43):
So while anxious hadinconsistency where there was
some deep connection and then itwould drop off and it's
inconsistent.
A true avoidant didn't get thatemotional connection, not very
much at all.
So the baby learns not even totry.
So they're super independent,right?
So they they like, what's thepoint of trying?
No one's so they don't build umthe neurocircuitry for emotional
(11:10):
empathy as much and emotionalthat those kind of emotional
circuits.
So they grow up veryindependent, very quote unquote
self-sufficient, but very lonelyin their left hemisphere, very
successful often, very task umfocused.
They don't know how toco-regulate well, um, and they
never develop the vulnerabilityto kind of have that kind of
(11:31):
intimacy in relationships.
So intimacy really scares them.
So often they shut down, likeoften an avoidant person will
shut down when they're upset andneed space, and an anxious
person will get bigger and wantto connect immediately to try to
feel safe.
So they both can't give eachother the very thing that they
(11:52):
need in the moment when they'rescared.
So that's why we get into theanxious avoidant dance.
SPEAKER_00 (11:58):
Is there a way for someone who's grown up with
either the anxious attachmentstyle or the avoidant attachment
with that deep bondingexperience on either way, the
erratic or inconsistent or thelack of thereof for that for
them to actually evolve anadulthood into healthier
(12:20):
experiences?
Or are they, I you know, I knowpeople who fit these, fit these
so well, and we go back to thewell on why they do what they do
in relationships so often.
And I'm just curious, how dothey maneuver through life?
Or do they are they do they endup having to find somebody who
(12:41):
mirrors that same attachmentstyle?
Or how how do they move forward?
SPEAKER_01 (12:46):
Well, I mean, essentially the whole book is
how do you heal these deeplyembedded patterns?
Um healing deeply embeddedrelational patterns that were
created young, which areprobably, if you're listening,
impacting your life can onlyhappen through healthy
relational connections asadults.
(13:07):
So uh secure anchoring throughthe relational patterns help us
hold and create spaces for oursystem to kind of start to be
with the original wound andneural nets open and we are
co-regulating.
And so we absolutely can healthese attachment wounds and
(13:28):
patterns inside, but they needto be done in relationship with
someone who is has a nervoussystem that's able to anchor
that experience.
So whatever is deeply wounded inrelationship needs to then be
healed in relationship.
But absolutely throughneuroplasticity and through
earned security, which I talk alot about what earned security
(13:50):
really is, I feel like I, youknow, I wrote the book Anxiously
attached, but I I was anxiousand avoidant, like I had both.
And very rarely are we one typeall the time.
I showed up more anxious in myintimate romantic partnerships,
but I also had avoidantprotectors and behaviors as
well.
And I definitely have earnedsecurity.
(14:12):
And earned security is earnedthrough relational experiences,
through safe experiences,through disconfirming
experiences, which means like ifI imagine the person will always
leave, instead of moving towardsa person who does always leave
and re-injure the trauma bond, Inow bring the pain of being left
(14:33):
to someone who's got the nervoussystem capacity to hold the
original wound.
And then I start to slowly learnthat not everybody leaves, but
you have to reorient towardssafe people and what I call
anchors in my book.
SPEAKER_00 (14:46):
I love that.
All right, you created somethingcalled the wheel of attachment.
Can you walk us through what itis and how it helps people move
through secure connection?
SPEAKER_01 (14:57):
Yeah, absolutely.
And did you get the link whenthey sent yes?
I have that as well.
So for those of you that arelistening, and I hope I'm doing,
I feel like I'm not doing agreat job of explaining myself
today, but um, in the shownotes, there is a visual.
So if you buy the book, there'sbeyond the labels and you get
the wheel because I'm gonnaexplain it, but it's can take a
(15:17):
little bit to really fullyunderstand.
But when you really understandit, you start to understand
attachment on a whole new level.
So it's like a circle, likecircle square kind of image.
And um, the bottom is security,the top is disorganization.
And for those of you listening,a lot of people refer to that as
fearful attachment, but I'mgonna use disorganization
(15:40):
because that's a scientificname.
So we have security and we havedisorganization.
On the right is anxious, and onthe left is avoided.
So that's that's the squareslashwheel.
In the book, I talk about withone parent who is anxious, you
can slide up anxiety or you canhave secure experiences with
(16:01):
them.
So you can you can slide on thewheel with one person, you slide
on the wheel.
So either you're really on thebottom and you're in like
security, or you can slide up.
They're a little bit anxious.
If they're anxious, if theiranxiety increases to like
terror, rage, abuse, and youturn up the volume on the
anxiety, you get to the top,which is disorganization.
(16:23):
So with one parent, you can haveall of those experiences.
Now on the other side, securityagain, on the on the bottom, and
let's say you have a dad who's alittle bit more avoidant.
You can slide sometimes he'savailable, sometimes he's
checked out, right?
If you go up the side, the leftside, you're gonna get more and
more avoidance to you get tolike neglect, extreme neglect
(16:45):
and turn back, and then you getto disorganized.
So basically, as you go up thesides, you're turning up the
volume on either the anxious orthe avoidant kind of symptoms or
patterns, and then you get todisorganize at the top.
So in one household, you canhave experiences of everything.
With one person, you might evenhave experiences of everything.
(17:09):
So it's not that static, like,oh, my dad was always avoidant.
Maybe your dad was avoidant,checked out, but then you have
these moments of security withhim.
And what was that?
So let's not put someone in justone category.
Let's start to look at the wholepicture.
And then once you kind of dothat with your family of origin,
(17:29):
we overlay that onto yourcurrent relationship patterns
and we start to see like what'son repeat um in the book, we do
that work.
SPEAKER_00 (17:38):
All right.
So for everyone listening, um,just remember to go back and
check out the show notes.
We'll also obviously have thelink um to her book, which is
coming out the day this airs onOctober 28th.
And we'll also have the link tothe wheel for you as well.
Was that hard to, I mean, wasthat hard to understand?
No, I mean, I I feel like I gota really good sense of what
(17:59):
you're talking about.
Um so everyone will let us knowwhat you think.
SPEAKER_01 (18:04):
Um it took me a while to really like take it in.
So I'm sure like you're gonnahear it once, and maybe it's a
little confusing, but if youreally start to, you really have
to sit with it for a while tounderstand to understand it, you
know.
SPEAKER_00 (18:17):
I'm already imagining people and myself as a
mother and caregiver in thiswhole cycle.
Um, it's really an it's afascinating conversation because
you can't help but notice yourown experiences or both your
your with your parents, but alsoas a parent, where you show up
in this.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:36):
And a lot of parents listening might be beating
themselves up too much.
SPEAKER_00 (18:40):
Feeling like I'm gonna call my college-age son
right after this episode.
And apologies.
SPEAKER_01 (18:46):
No, we can only pass down what we know, and most
parents are doing the best theycan.
So there's always rupture andrepair.
So don't be too hard onyourself.
SPEAKER_00 (18:56):
There, there we go.
All right.
Well, let's talk about why talktherapy alone sometimes is not
enough to heal attachmentwounds.
What role does the body play intrue transformation?
SPEAKER_01 (19:07):
Everything.
SPEAKER_00 (19:08):
All right, let's talk about it.
Let's unpack that.
SPEAKER_01 (19:12):
You know, I think that a lot of the population
understand, you know, attachmentstyles, but like the next
question is like, how do we healthem?
And that's really what you knowwhat I'm addressing in the book.
But so our attachment patternsand wounds that are created in
childhood and and influence usright now are stored in our
(19:33):
body, mostly through sensation.
And so by we can't think our wayout of them, um, they will
continue to re reenact in ourlives, but without going to the
body and holding the sensationtogether, usually with another
nervous system, but withoutgoing into like, oh, every time
(19:54):
my husband does this, my heartdrops, or my chest tightens, or
my belly gets queasy, right?
Like these sensations that arehappening in our body are
attachment memories.
And so without kind of going tothe sensational experience in
the body and holding thattogether, we're just like
(20:16):
talking about it.
We're not actually being withthe original memory, we're not
building the capacity togetherto hold the discomfort, the
wound, the pain, whatever it is.
We need to hold it because thattype of holding wasn't provided
for us when we were younger.
And now when we are with theseexperiences, we need to be with
(20:38):
the body and what's happeningsomatically in the body, or else
we're really not healing it.
We're not, we're not buildingthe capacity to hold it.
We're not moving it from thebody into the right hemisphere
and integrating it into the lefthemisphere.
So we have to go to the body.
It's so important.
And if you're doing attachmentwork with someone, either bring
the book to them or make surethat they are going into the
(21:02):
body with you, that they're justnot just talking about it
because it's it's so important.
I want people to heal, not justget educated, but also start to
be able to heal.
SPEAKER_00 (21:10):
Well, let's talk about what it feels like.
Can you describe?
I think a lot of people getreally confused with connection.
We've talked about this beforeon the show of how sometimes
connection people actually thinkthe butterfly feeling is a good
thing.
And often where it's the nervoussystem saying alarms are going
off.
(21:31):
What is emotional safetysupposed to feel like in the
body?
And how can the listeners beginto understand it better or
notice when that's missing?
SPEAKER_01 (21:40):
Yeah, and I think a lot of people mistake intensity
for like love and stuff likethat.
Um true safety is when someoneis in what we call their ventral
nervous system enough.
We're floating out of differentstates, but I call the ventral
is the highest form of evolutionfor us humans is to be in a
(22:02):
ventral state.
It's Stephen Porges's work.
So, like you're making eyecontact with me, uh, we're open,
we're feeling safe to sharetogether.
Our breath is in a certain way.
Mine is probably a little speedyright now, but there's a sense
of safety from my nervous systemto your nervous system, that we
are safe together and we canfeel that together.
(22:25):
So it's really important thatwhen you're doing this work,
that you have someone who has acontainer of safety for your
nervous system to drop into whatwe call your implicit world.
So, what happens a lot is thatpeople who are used to chaos or
have been avoiding or um haven'tdone the work, they'll find
(22:50):
someone who is safe and they'llbe scared or they'll be like, I
don't want to sit here, or thisis really uncomfortable for me,
or I don't know how to staypresent with this person who's
really holding this state ofsafety.
Because as we approach the stateof safety, if it's like the
first time or whatever, we haveto also get vulnerable.
(23:12):
So this is like the grounds forvulnerability.
So a lot of people eitherstruggle with safety because
it's foreign to their nervoussystem.
They never had anyone being soemotionally present or attuned
to them.
So that can be one way of like,you know, when they say, Oh,
this guy's boring, or this isjust flat, or I can't be
(23:36):
underwhelming.
SPEAKER_00 (23:36):
Yeah, I don't feel that intensity or excitement.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (23:40):
Or even I'm gonna push them away because they're
so available.
Yeah.
It's because our nervous systemisn't used to that type of
availability, because that typeof availability and emotional
presence is intimacy, but italso brings vulnerability and it
kind of brings us right intolike the real world.
And we might have to be with thepresent moment.
(24:00):
We're not, you know.
So true safety can wake up alot.
I mean, and and the science isthe true safety of another
person is really the catalystfor healing.
But if you don't know that'slike what's being awakened, and
you can scare you, or it couldbe something that you don't want
to go towards because it mightbe foreign for your nervous
system.
SPEAKER_00 (24:19):
That makes a lot of sense.
Okay.
So there's a lot of intellectualawareness about this.
I think I know a lot of peoplethat are like kind of get this
on an intellectual level, buthow do we move someone from that
intellectual awareness of I knowI do this, I get this, to
actually shifting their behaviorand relationship?
(24:41):
I'm sure it goes back to thisanchoring conversation that we
started with.
But if you could walk us throughwhat that looks like from
shifting from an awareness to anactual living.
SPEAKER_01 (24:53):
Yeah, I think that as you start to heal and you
start to create awareness forwhat's going on in your body and
you start to hold, like, everytime my my boyfriend does this,
I react by screaming, right?
Like the reaction time is likesuper fast.
As we start to slow down and belike, okay, when your boyfriend
(25:14):
does this, like what is itwaking up in your body?
Can we start to go there andlike let's be with that for a
while?
You're building a capacity forwhatever's going on inside of
you with the help, right?
So over time, what you're doingis you're building space.
So you're gonna build arelationship for with whatever
(25:36):
he's waking up inside of you.
You're gonna learn to be withit, you're gonna learn to maybe
even attach it to the roots.
We're gonna hold it together,and you're building your
capacity for what was justuncomfortable inside of you.
And as you build that capacityand compassion and relationship
with what's going on inside ofyou, you're creating space so
(25:59):
that when the behavior shows upand you want to react, you're
gonna build the space to havewhat we call response
flexibility.
So you're gonna be able to say,okay, he's doing this behavior.
Normally I want to throw a shoeat his face or whatever you want
to do.
But now I know it's waking upthis intensity in me.
Now I've started to be withwhat's going on inside me.
(26:20):
Now I start to understand whatit really is.
So there's a space that happensover time through like
neuroplasticity and healing sothat I know, oh my God, he's
waking up these early memoriesor this intensity, and I can be
both a witness of what's goingon inside me, a witness of what
he's doing.
And eventually I start to havechoices.
(26:42):
So I don't become, I'm not asreactive.
So that takes time.
All of that work takes time tochange our behaviors.
It doesn't just happen becausethat's automatic, right?
So it takes time to build thattolerance to be with what's
going on inside of us and notreact automatically.
SPEAKER_00 (27:01):
Okay.
This I hear a lot.
Um, many people, especiallywomen, describe feeling they're
too much or they're not enough.
It's either one or the other,right?
How do attachment wounds feedthese beliefs about ourselves
and what helps to rewrite them?
I cannot begin to tell you,particularly in the
(27:22):
high-achieving women who havegone out and done big things
early on in life, likely toprove something, to secure
affection from their familiesearly on, all that sort of
thing, later in life, findthemselves, I can tell you, in a
circle of friends, several ofthem saying, I think I'm just
too much for most of the guys Imeet.
(27:44):
And then I have a whole othercrop of friends and uh
girlfriends that will say, Ijust never feel like I'm enough,
no matter what I do.
It's never enough.
SPEAKER_01 (27:56):
Well, I mean, sounds like they are attracting their
familiar.
unknown (28:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (28:01):
So if they have big feelings and they had parents
that didn't know have thecapacity to be with their big
feelings and help the them alsobe with their own big feelings,
and then they go out and theymaybe pick a more avoidant
partner because that's theirfamiliar, then that partner
can't handle their big feelings,and they're like stuck right
(28:23):
back in their childhood dynamicof I keep picking people who
think I'm too much.
When the truth is I am totallyvalid in my big feelings, I just
never had the people help mehold them in the first place and
help me understand them and bewith them.
And so I'm going to pick peoplewho ironically are gonna tell me
I'm too much again.
(28:46):
So the same is true for theother side, you know what I'm
saying?
So it's like asking that person,like, when were your big
feelings too much?
What parent couldn't hold thatexperience with you?
Because our feelings are nevertoo much, but our parents'
capacity to be with our feelingsare sometimes very limited.
SPEAKER_00 (29:04):
Right.
Oh so true, so true.
Okay, let's talk a little bitabout for those listeners who
maybe are in currently inrelationship or marriages, how
can partners support each otherand healing without falling into
a cycle of codependency?
SPEAKER_01 (29:24):
I don't love the word codependency, but in the
book I talk a lot about traumabonding and breaking that.
And so I think sometimescodependency is around fear.
You know, what parts of thisrelationship are we controlling
each other because we don't wantto feel our core wound?
(29:45):
We can get stuck in thosedynamics.
Um one of the things I say isthat when we think, oh, if my
partner could just actdifferently, then I would be
okay.
That's a sign that we might betrauma bonding or.
Um I want to control my partnerbecause I think maybe in the
(30:06):
beginning they gave me this andthey're not giving me that
anymore, and I'm going to getstuck in this cycle of trying to
get them to act a certain way soI can feel a certain way.
And normally what's happening,and it was a breakthrough moment
for me, but is I'm trying to getto feeling special or feeling
seen or not being left.
I'm trying so hard to resolvethis with someone who can't
(30:29):
resolve it for me, to avoidactually not feeling special,
actually being left.
So to avoid the original wound,I'm working really hard with
someone who I think might beable to, you know, take that
away from me.
But ironically, they just keeprecreating it.
And that's what a child has todo in a family because we don't
(30:53):
have the choice to say, okay,let's say you were my mom and
you're responding a certain way.
I have to keep trying with you.
But when we're in adultrelationships, we can get stuck
with that little boy or thatlittle girl, keep trying with
our partner, and our partner isnot capable of giving us what we
want, or we think they'recapable because they did it in
(31:14):
the beginning before theprotectors come up.
So we just keep trying andtrying and trying, and we're
spinning our wheels to try toavoid the pain inside.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:26):
Okay.
Let's talk about maybe smalldaily practices that people can
use or do that you'verecommended that you've
experienced.
And I want to talk about yourown experience here in a minute
to build that emotional safetyand regulate the nervous system
over time.
And if this goes into some ofyour self-ful work, please go
(31:49):
ahead and tell us more aboutthat.
SPEAKER_01 (31:53):
Yeah, I mean, you can extend your exhales always
and trick your body back intosafety because the respiratory
system is the one system that wehave access to when we're in a
state of dysregulation.
So if you're reallydysregulated, stop thinking
about the problem.
Do some box breathing and extendyour exhales, and your body will
(32:15):
go back into a state of safety.
You will trick it back intosafety, safe uh safety.
But a big message with the bookis some people can't
self-regulate.
They just can't.
And so the only way to learn howto self-regulate is through
really good co-regulation.
(32:36):
And if we didn't getco-regulation, like really good
co-regulation as infants and asyoung ones, we're not going to
have really greatself-regulation.
So, co-regulation, the abilityto join someone else's nervous
system and have them lend theirparasympathetic system to us to
help us calm down.
SPEAKER_00 (32:57):
So that would be like a parent soothing a child
that's having an experience toget them back to a state of
regulation.
SPEAKER_01 (33:05):
Yeah, and it's it's soothing, but it's also just
being with the discomfort thatthe child is going and lending
your system.
So that child is using yournervous system as a way to get
back into a state of regulation.
This happens because when we'reborn, we're not born with a
parasympathetic nervous systemfully developed.
(33:28):
So we literally need our primarycaregiver to lend us their
parasympathetic nervous systemso we can co-regulate and build
our nervous system from there.
So if our parent was anxious oravoidant or really struggled
with internal problems orexternal stress, whatever, and
(33:49):
they didn't couldn't hold ourdysregulation and co-regulate
with us, we grew up later inlife not with the ability, not
knowing how to self-regulate.
So we literally can't learn toself-regulate out of the blue.
Many people turn to alcohol.
We turn to whatever we turn to,we need to experience a lot of
(34:11):
good co-regulation in order todevelop self-regulation.
So I think the biggest message Iwant to get out to people is
that if you're not regulatingyour nervous system, it might
not be your fault.
You might actually have notinternalized enough of the
capacity for self-regulation andyou might need really great
anchoring.
(34:31):
Because what happens throughgreat anchoring and
co-regulation is that after awhile, through mirror neurons
and residence circuits, is thatwe internalize that person.
So, Michelle, if you were myanchor and my therapist or an
anchor, I talk about anchoringrelationships, and I was really
upset.
And I go to you and you don'ttry to fix me, um, but you're
(34:54):
just with me in my emotionalexperience and you help me by
being present with me, attuningto me, and be and joining with
me.
After a while, I actuallyinternalize that support within
me.
This is what a secure baby does.
So we internalize each other.
So if I can internalize you andyou're in a state of safety and
(35:17):
you are with me through mydysregulation, eventually you
become part of me and thatregulation gets internalized.
Essentially, that's how we moveto earn security.
And it comes from our ability topick safe people now to anchor
us, to internalize them, to thenchange the state of safety and
(35:38):
security within our own nervoussystem.
And it's through anchoringrelationships because that's
what a baby needs.
They need secure, safe parentsto show up and anchor them.
And if their parents wereanxious or avoidant or
disorganized, that's what weinternalize.
And so later in life, as we dothe attachment healing work, we
need to re-interalize safepeople in order to change our
(36:03):
felt sense in our body ofsafety.
SPEAKER_00 (36:07):
So in adulthood, let's talk about this because I
think this anchoring, findingthose anchor people in your life
is so critically important,regardless of whether or not
you're in a marriage or aromantic relationship, or
frankly, you're surrounded witha group of friends.
Um, or if you're not, what areyou gonna do?
Right.
Because I do think that thereare a lot of men, particularly
(36:29):
in adulthood, who have fewer andfewer friends to turn on to turn
to turn to for emotionalsupport.
Um, and I would, I would say,like one of the wonderful things
about being a woman in this dayand age is increasingly I think
there's awareness of we needeach other and we show up for
each other.
Um, anchoring connection canhappen with anyone that you're
(36:52):
close with.
Like, could it be through aclose friend if you're not in a
relationship?
Does it have to be with yourpartner?
I mean, ideally, it would bewith your partner in your love
relationship.
But let's just say in life, umsomebody doesn't have a partner.
I have a couple friends who areeither divorced or never
married.
Um, and I notice a relianceheavily on the girlfriend
(37:16):
network.
Um, it's a real thing forsupport and security and
guidance as they move throughlife.
SPEAKER_01 (37:25):
Yeah, I mean, I did a lot of work with my partner,
but the truth is my anchoringexperiences did not come from
romantic partnership.
Most of my reenact, my traumareenactment comes from that.
But it can come from yourromantic relationship.
Sometimes you need like a Magotherapy or need another nervous
system in the in the room tohelp that relationship get
(37:46):
through some rough patches.
But anchoring, and I I talkabout this in the book,
anchoring relationships comefrom special people who have the
capacity to show up for us anddon't judge us, can maintain a
state of safety.
And often this doesn't, isn'talways in romantic relationships
because we're telepathing.
(38:07):
Like if you and I are reallyclose and I get scared, your
system is more likely to pick upon that.
But if you're an anchoringperson and you're not my
partner, you might not getscared as easily in that kind of
relationship.
So there are people who have acapacity to hold the state of
safety, eventual state enoughfor us that don't judge us and
that truly listen to us.
(38:29):
And I have like three or fouranchoring relationships.
And I talk about co-anchoringand the quality of that we can
give each other when we'reco-anchoring.
And if you have really earlyattachment wounds, then you need
more of like a professional toanchor you.
(39:09):
And if I continue to meet thisperson, my nervous system is
starting to register this aslove, as care.
And I will attract more of it.
And not only will I attract moreof it, the more I experience it
in my nervous system and in mybeing, and the work shows up in
(39:30):
this relationship, um, the moreI can actually give it to others
too.
So I can start to become aco-anchor.
So I talk about in the book likefinding your anchors, I talk
about co-anchoring, I talk aboutwhat we need in these anchoring
relationships.
And most people who come to medon't have one anchoring
relationship.
(39:50):
Females too.
And I and we can go through theRolodex, and sometimes they find
someone that they didn't eventhink but they had the capacity.
And then through working withme, they now know really what
that is, and then they start tolook for more and more of that
in their world.
So you're just basically lookingfor really emotionally available
people who are anchoring.
And in our culture, in this dayand age, like unfortunately,
(40:15):
like it takes a little bit ofwork to find your anchoring
people.
SPEAKER_00 (40:20):
So well stated.
I want to step back for a minutebecause obviously you wrote your
first book back in 2024, 2022.
Two.
2022.
So it's been a few years.
And I probably wrote it likebefore that, too.
It came out in 2020.
Okay, it came out in 2022, andthat was Anxiously attached,
(40:41):
becoming more secure in life andlove.
And now you have this new bookcoming out.
Tell me a little bit about theprocess.
What inspired you to focus onattachment and the nervous
system as keys to emotionalhealing?
Obviously, I know you have yourown story in this.
So tell us a little bit aboutthe work that you've done and
how you came to write both ofthese books that are so needed.
SPEAKER_01 (41:05):
I talk about an anxiously attached, like when I
was like 19 and I ended up inthe emergency room with like an
anxiety attack, not knowing likewhat was going on with me.
And I remember um I rememberpicking up the book Facing
Codependency.
And I just remember as like ayoung girl feeling like, oh,
finally, there's some words tolike explain what I'm feeling,
(41:29):
you know.
Like, I don't love the wordcodependency anymore, but like
facing codependency was like, itwas like no one understood me,
but finally I picked up a bookthat understood me.
And I I now what I know thisbook and how healing happens, I
didn't know this at the time,but I read every single
(41:50):
self-help book under the sun.
They soothed me, they gave mesome answers, they did not heal
me.
I could you can't heal through abook, but they definitely
soothed me and they started togive me some answers.
I'm um an imagotherapist, I'm arelationship expert, I study
attachment theory and I studyunder Bonnie Badanach,
(42:12):
interpersonal neurobiology.
When I came across attachmenttheory, everything like
codependency, everything startedto make sense.
Because attachment theory, andwhen you start to really dive
into it, like forget aboutcodependency.
That's just a word.
Like when you understandattachment theory, it's like, oh
my God, like my world, I waslike, everything is starting to
(42:36):
make sense to me.
Um, so I studied attachmenttheory, but I knew with
anxiously attached, even thoughI knew a lot of the science, my
goal was there are so manypeople who are suffering with
the same behaviors that I have,with the label of codependency,
with self-sacrifice that arerepeating their patterns.
And all of this is reallyattachment.
(42:57):
And so I need to bring thatcodependent audience into the
attachment space becauseattachment is the science of it
all.
And it's very layered andnuanced and very well
researched.
I was with a in a relationshipin Anxiously attached, and he
was doing a lot of work with me.
And at one point, he decided hedidn't want to do the work
(43:19):
anymore.
Like the saddest thing in mylife because I did not, I did
really love this human being somuch.
I, because of the science andbecause of everything that I was
doing, I was like, I'm gonnacontinue.
I'm just gonna keep showing up,I'm gonna keep doing the
attachment work.
I had the best support.
I understood the science, whichis what I provide in the book.
(43:40):
Like, I'm giving you guys what Ihad because if I didn't have the
science, I would have thoughtmaybe I was going crazy at
certain junctures.
Then I had people coming to mesaying, Well, I'm anxiously
attached, but I have avoidantthis and I'm this and I'm that.
And I dive deeper intointerpersonal neurobiology.
That's where the wheel ofattachment came up.
And I'm like, I have to answerthe the questions that are
(44:01):
people now are coming to me.
Um, I did humbly, I had so muchmore work to do that I didn't
know that I had to do.
I left that relationship becausehe chose to not do the work.
And you can stay and leave him.
That's but I chose to leave,which was very hard.
But then more work came up forme.
Um, and so the science and myown personal work, and then like
(44:24):
all the feedback from Anxiouslyattached, like was the way that
Safe was born, the the you know,three years later.
SPEAKER_00 (44:32):
Very brave.
I mean, it's it's uh one thingto say, hey, doesn't want to do
the work, um, and but I don'tknow what else to do, so I'm
gonna hang out here.
It's a much harder thing toleave when you know that it's
not going to go where you wantit to go.
So kudos to you because I thinkyou're modeling the exact
(44:52):
behavior.
Of course, you're looking at itfrom a different prism as a
researcher and as a umtherapist, but I also think
you're modeling behavior that somany people want to be able to
do and find it so very hard.
SPEAKER_01 (45:08):
So I think as you start to do the real work, hold
the experiences in your body,either that person's behaviors
don't wake up as much and youcan coexist, or you decide this
person isn't giving me what Ineed and you leave.
Both of those can be rightanswers.
It doesn't mean if you do thework, you're gonna leave.
(45:28):
If you do the work, you mighthave more compassion for your
partner, you might have morespace for their behaviors, you
might be fine.
Or if you do the work, you mightsay, you know what, my partner
has these behaviors, and Ireally need this, and I can't
get what I need from thisrelationship, so I have to
choose to leave.
But that was, yeah, that was,and I'll say this to your
audience (45:47):
like as someone who understands the science and
wrote the books, like you can'tbypass the work.
And that was probably thehardest decision I ever made in
my whole life.
I mean, there are still dayswhere I wish had my partner had
been a little more courageousand had done the work, we could
have evolved together.
But I know that like everybodycan do what's in their capacity,
(46:12):
and I now have learned to reallyrespect where people are at, and
I'm not the anxious personsaying, you avoid it, need to do
the work anymore.
I'm like, you don't want to dothe work, that's fine, but I'm
gonna go over here because Ineed to get what I need.
But I wasn't always like that.
SPEAKER_00 (46:27):
So well, I think that that's the the hope that we
all have though, that we makethe choices that we need to for
what we have and recognize thatwhere people are, they show you
where their limits are, really,at the end of the day.
SPEAKER_01 (46:42):
I mean, I talk in seven about trauma bonding.
I think what happens with peoplewith early wounding, which I
definitely fall in thatcategory, is that we
over-identify with our partner'swounds.
Like I identified a lot and Iwanted him to heal, but the
truth is I really needed tofocus more on my wounds.
And if he wasn't willing tofocus on going inward and
(47:02):
healing his wounds to the samecapacity, I wasn't going to save
him, right?
And so that's that's kind oflike the anxious person wants to
do that, but really the turninginward and being with what's
going on inside of me, whichwhich was which was what I
really needed.
But that was a really areorienting and a letting go,
and that was that was reallyhard.
SPEAKER_00 (47:25):
All right, as we begin to wrap, I want to give
you the final words.
So, what's one truth orunderstanding or awakening that
you hope every reader andlistener will take away about
love and healing and coming hometo your ourselves?
SPEAKER_01 (47:42):
I mean, I hope that everybody who listens can walk
away from this book with like aclear understanding of what
healing is and what they need inorder to move down that path.
Um, and I hope that they have asensational experience when
they're reading the book thathelps them attach implicit
(48:03):
attachment wounds with memory.
I hope that they can make thatconnection through reading the
book, like what this type ofmemory is.
It's not explicit, it'ssensational.
I hope they can leave the bookand be like, oh, that feeling in
my chest is actually memory.
I hope they can make thatconnection.
SPEAKER_00 (48:22):
It's been very powerful and illuminating
conversation.
So thank you, Jessica.
For anyone who resonated withwhat we've been talking about
today, where can they find moreabout your work and connect with
you online?
SPEAKER_01 (48:36):
Yeah, well, there's a link that I provided you that
um, if you buy the book and youfill it out immediately and
check your spam, you'll get abeyond the labels, you'll get
the wheel of attachment.
And um I just I want to share mymy mentor who wrote Heart of
Trauma.
I have a 40-minute conversationabout what it feels like to move
from insecurity to security inyour body and a talk that's free
(49:00):
with anyone who buys the bookand is for your audience.
So those two things, please fillout the form.
You get them.
I'm really happy to share.
She's an anchor for me, andshe's like, um, she's like the
the therapist guru who teachesus therapists.
So I'm just trying to get herout there to the public because
I she's impacted me so much.
(49:22):
So you get those two things, andthen I'm on Instagram at Jessica
Baum LMHC.
I will try to respond toeverybody.
I try to like respond as best Ican to everyone.
So if you get the book andyou're, you know, moved by it or
you want to reach out, I reallydo try to respond.
And then I have a consciousrelationship group.
So I have a team of like sixtherapists who work coaching,
(49:46):
you know, and we work onhealing, helping people heal
attachment wounds.
And so we can work virtually ifyou want to do some individual
work.
SPEAKER_00 (49:54):
Wonderful.
Thank you so much, Jessica.
Again, this has been JessicaBaum, and her new book is Safe
Coming Home to Yourself andOthers.
It is out October 28th.
I hope that you'll check it out.
Please make sure you go to theshow notes.
The link that Jessica hasreferred to is going to be in
there.
Um, and you can get some of thefree gifts that she's referring
(50:16):
to when you purchase the book.
So again, Jessica, thank you foryour time and your expertise and
for walking us through thisreally important conversation
that really impacts all of us.
SPEAKER_01 (50:28):
Thank you so much for having me.
It was great.
SPEAKER_00 (50:31):
All right, everyone.
Until next time, go and liveyour extraordinary life.
You use the video.
Go ahead.
What's that?
You use the video as well?
I use the video as well.
Yeah.
Make any adjustments you needto.
We'll edit the front end asneeded.
No, this works.
This is fine.
Great.
All right.
Welcome back to another episodeof the Live Your Extraordinary
Life podcast.
(00:20):
I'm your host, Michelle Rios.
And today's conversation is oneI've been really looking forward
to because it's about somethingwe all crave yet often struggle
to sustain authentic connection.
My guest today is Jessica Baum,a licensed psychotherapist,
relationship coach, and thefounder of the Relationship
(00:42):
Institute of Palm Beach.
She's also the author of thebest-selling book, Anxiously
Attached, Becoming More Securein Life and Love.
And her upcoming book, Safe,Coming Home to Yourself and
Others, takes her work evendeeper, helping people
understand that our struggles inlove aren't flaws or failings,
(01:06):
but psychological patterns wiredinto our nervous system.
So Jessica's approach blendssome neuroscience, attachment
theory, and some body-basedhealing to help people move from
anxious or avoidant patternsinto earned secure attachment so
they can show up with morecompassion, safety, and
(01:27):
emotional freedom, both inrelationships and within
themselves.
So if you've ever wonderedwhat's keeping you from having
the love that you really desirein your life or attracting the
same dynamics over and overagain, this episode is right for
you.
Let's dive in.
Jessica, welcome to the show.
(01:48):
Thank you so much for having me.
All right, let's delve right in.
You've said that many of ourrelationships, our relationship
struggles in general, aren'treally personality problems, but
they're nervous system patterns.
Can you unpack that a bit?
SPEAKER_01 (02:06):
Yeah, I mean, I don't know where you got that
quote, but um usually it's notpersonality.
Normally, what we struggle inrelationships is getting close
and feeling safe, and what isthat is different for every
single person based on ourearlier experiences and how that
shows up.
I wouldn't say it's nervoussystem problems or patterns, but
(02:28):
it's it's the combination of twopeople's embedded patterns and
how that shows up within therelationship context, if that
makes sense.
SPEAKER_00 (02:34):
All right.
So let's let's go a little bitdeeper into why do we keep
repeating painful relationshipdynamics even when we quote
unquote know betterintellectually?
SPEAKER_01 (02:47):
Yeah.
So like when we're younger, umwe internalize our connections,
our earliest connections aroundsafety, our earliest attachment
patterns.
Um, we make up stories aboutourselves based on the patterns
that we are internalizing.
So if we feel left a lot, we canfeel abandoned, and that can get
(03:09):
internalized, or if we feel umcertain things get internalized
in our soma, in our body, andthey become the familiar, they
become the paradigm that we'vegrown up with.
It becomes what our bodies knowto expect.
I know relationships are gonnabe painful, I know conflict is
gonna be terrible, I know thatI'm always gonna be left, or I
(03:30):
know that I'm gonna have safety.
Like, so we internalizepatterns, experiences, um, and
it becomes our familiar.
So it becomes what our bodyknows to expect in
relationships, and we tend to,without being conscious or
healing, we tend to gravitatetowards people who resonate with
(03:53):
that because it feels familiar.
So we'll recreate the familiarif we haven't healed, because
it's what feels right for ourbody and it's what we've learned
to like expect.
So if I expect that people arealways gonna turn their back on
me because I've experienced alot a lot in childhood, that is
unfortunately my familiarpattern.
(04:15):
And ironically, it's what I willseek out.
I will seek out people who dothat because it resonates with
what I know to expect until Iheal it.
So that's why it can feel likeon repeat.
Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_00 (04:27):
That makes a lot of sense.
And in fact, I have a friend,and I want to use this example
because I think it fits exactlywhat you're talking about, who
experienced divorce very earlyon in her life.
She was very small when herparents separated and um
remarried.
And her experience has beenhabitual relationships where the
man eventually leaves, verysimilar to the feeling that her
(04:51):
father left the home when shewas quite small.
And we talk about that a lot.
Like if we know this, why is itthis keeps showing up?
And how did how do we change thedirection of her particular
experience with love?
SPEAKER_01 (05:07):
Yeah, I mean, that's a great example.
So, and I I feel like we end upcreating the very thing that we
fear because the wound lives inus.
So if the wound of I'm gonna beleft lives in us, we might pick
someone in the beginning thatfeels like they're never gonna
leave us.
But if they, if they, if theyhave a wound and usually and
(05:28):
their adaptive strategy is toflee, right?
We tend to we attract them.
Um, we're looking to confirm ourbelief system.
So we're looking to confirm Ihave this inherent feeling that
I will be left.
I know what that feels like inmy body.
And if you the wind just blowsin that direction, I'm
confirming a belief system thatI am gonna be left.
(05:50):
And then that fear usuallydrives, can drive that person to
leaving.
So we can recreate it that way.
And we're ironically trying toprotect ourselves from never
feeling like we are left.
So the healing of that is to bewith the original feeling of
being left, you know, and kindof healing that so that we don't
try to fill that void withsomeone who will show us that
(06:12):
they're this like it's a reallygreat example.
And I don't know if I'msometimes when we meet someone
new, we think, oh my God, thisis the answer.
This person is never gonna leaveme, they're gonna show up
perfectly.
We're projecting the unmetneeds, or you know, I'm never
gonna have to feel that painagain.
Right.
The temporary fix, becauseeventually they're gonna do
(06:34):
something that's gonna activatethe pain that is already in
there.
And then we think, oh my God,here I am again, when really
that person's just activatingthe original wound.
Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_00 (06:43):
Yeah, it makes perfect sense.
So it goes back to you have todo the inner work.
And a lot of times you thinkyou've done the inner work, and
yet those same patterns exist.
SPEAKER_01 (06:54):
So yeah, you have to do the inner work, and our
psyche looks for ways to avoidit to protect us from the pain.
So if I buy into the fantasythat someone is gonna choose me
or someone's not gonna leave me,or I'm gonna find that person
that's not gonna do that for me,that's a fantasy that helps
protect me from this happened tome and it lives in my body, and
(07:16):
I've been very deeply left orvery deeply abandoned.
So instead of trying to fix itby finding someone who will
never do that, I actually haveto be with the original wound of
that.
SPEAKER_00 (07:28):
So, okay, how do we get out of that scenario?
What's the path forward?
unknown (07:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (07:34):
So in like I talk about this in chapter seven, but
like I think like some peoplelistening might like relate to
like a trauma bond kind offeeling.
A thousand percent.
Yeah.
And I think the best way I candescribe trauma bond is like if
I think this person could justact differently, I'd be okay.
Right.
So we buy into this like fantasyof if my partner just didn't do
(07:57):
this, or if they could just showup like they did in the
beginning, I'd be okay.
And we can stay stuck um foryears in cycles like that with
the potential or the beginning.
And what we need to really startto recognize is what is this
person doing that is waking upsomething in me that lives in my
body, and when have I originallyexperienced that so that I could
(08:21):
get out of the dynamic ofneeding them to show up a
certain way and get to let go ofthe control, which is really
hard because we want to controlthe other person, which is
totally normal and natural, andget to what is what are they
waking up in me that's moreabout my earlier wounding?
And can I start to focus on thatrather than them?
So I can get to um theunconscious pieces and become
(08:44):
more awakened by what's reallywaking up in me, not just what's
happening in the here and now.
SPEAKER_00 (08:50):
That's really, really helpful.
All right, let's let's talk alittle bit about the difference
between anxious attachment andavoidant attachment, because
we've heard a lot about theseterms.
You see it out there a lot.
Um, I think one of the onlineinfluencers, Gillian Turecki,
talks a lot about the avoidantattachment style.
But I'm really curious if youcould help articulate the
(09:13):
difference between the two.
And then what does it actuallylook like in real life?
SPEAKER_01 (09:20):
Yeah, I mean, so there are four attachment
styles.
There's also disorganized,sometimes called disfearful, but
and I talk about this, I unpackthis deeply in the book, but an
anxious attachment pattern is achild whose primary caregiver is
inconsistent.
So that can mean that they aredysregulated sometimes,
(09:42):
sometimes so overwhelmed withwork, sometimes there, sometimes
not there, right?
So the hallmark for anxious isinconsistency.
So the baby learns to leavetheir kind of energetic system
and track mom's nervous system.
So they can move towards mom toregulate her system as a way to
(10:02):
stay in connection.
So they, you know, their nervoussystem gets bigger, we move
towards, we're fixers, we try toco-regulate.
Um, and we can usually tell whatthe other person is feeling,
their needs, we can meet theirneeds because the way that that
baby stays in connection ismeeting the need of the primary
caregiver.
(10:23):
So that's a very differentadaptation than avoidant, like a
true avoidant, and there'savoidant protectors, but a true
avoidant baby is in a home wherethe primary caregivers are more
in their left hemisphere,they're more left shifted.
And so they might be likechecking the tasks at hand and
feeding the baby, but they'renot deeply connecting.
(10:43):
So while anxious hadinconsistency where there was
some deep connection and then itwould drop off and it's
inconsistent.
A true avoidant didn't get thatemotional connection, not very
much at all.
So the baby learns not even totry.
So they're super independent,right?
So they they like, what's thepoint of trying?
No one's so they don't build umthe neurocircuitry for emotional
(11:10):
empathy as much and emotionalthat those kind of emotional
circuits.
So they grow up veryindependent, very quote unquote
self-sufficient, but very lonelyin their left hemisphere, very
successful often, very task umfocused.
They don't know how toco-regulate well, um, and they
never develop the vulnerabilityto kind of have that kind of
(11:31):
intimacy in relationships.
So intimacy really scares them.
So often they shut down, likeoften an avoidant person will
shut down when they're upset andneed space, and an anxious
person will get bigger and wantto connect immediately to try to
feel safe.
So they both can't give eachother the very thing that they
(11:52):
need in the moment when they'rescared.
So that's why we get into theanxious avoidant dance.
SPEAKER_00 (11:58):
Is there a way for someone who's grown up with
either the anxious attachmentstyle or the avoidant attachment
with that deep bondingexperience on either way, the
erratic or inconsistent or thelack of thereof for that for
them to actually evolve anadulthood into healthier
(12:20):
experiences?
Or are they, I you know, I knowpeople who fit these, fit these
so well, and we go back to thewell on why they do what they do
in relationships so often.
And I'm just curious, how dothey maneuver through life?
Or do they are they do they endup having to find somebody who
(12:41):
mirrors that same attachmentstyle?
Or how how do they move forward?
SPEAKER_01 (12:46):
Well, I mean, essentially the whole book is
how do you heal these deeplyembedded patterns?
Um healing deeply embeddedrelational patterns that were
created young, which areprobably, if you're listening,
impacting your life can onlyhappen through healthy
relational connections asadults.
(13:07):
So uh secure anchoring throughthe relational patterns help us
hold and create spaces for oursystem to kind of start to be
with the original wound andneural nets open and we are
co-regulating.
And so we absolutely can healthese attachment wounds and
(13:28):
patterns inside, but they needto be done in relationship with
someone who is has a nervoussystem that's able to anchor
that experience.
So whatever is deeply wounded inrelationship needs to then be
healed in relationship.
But absolutely throughneuroplasticity and through
earned security, which I talk alot about what earned security
(13:50):
really is, I feel like I, youknow, I wrote the book Anxiously
attached, but I I was anxiousand avoidant, like I had both.
And very rarely are we one typeall the time.
I showed up more anxious in myintimate romantic partnerships,
but I also had avoidantprotectors and behaviors as
well.
And I definitely have earnedsecurity.
(14:12):
And earned security is earnedthrough relational experiences,
through safe experiences,through disconfirming
experiences, which means like ifI imagine the person will always
leave, instead of moving towardsa person who does always leave
and re-injure the trauma bond, Inow bring the pain of being left
(14:33):
to someone who's got the nervoussystem capacity to hold the
original wound.
And then I start to slowly learnthat not everybody leaves, but
you have to reorient towardssafe people and what I call
anchors in my book.
SPEAKER_00 (14:46):
I love that.
All right, you created somethingcalled the wheel of attachment.
Can you walk us through what itis and how it helps people move
through secure connection?
SPEAKER_01 (14:57):
Yeah, absolutely.
And did you get the link whenthey sent yes?
I have that as well.
So for those of you that arelistening, and I hope I'm doing,
I feel like I'm not doing agreat job of explaining myself
today, but um, in the shownotes, there is a visual.
So if you buy the book, there'sbeyond the labels and you get
the wheel because I'm gonnaexplain it, but it's can take a
(15:17):
little bit to really fullyunderstand.
But when you really understandit, you start to understand
attachment on a whole new level.
So it's like a circle, likecircle square kind of image.
And um, the bottom is security,the top is disorganization.
And for those of you listening,a lot of people refer to that as
fearful attachment, but I'mgonna use disorganization
(15:40):
because that's a scientificname.
So we have security and we havedisorganization.
On the right is anxious, and onthe left is avoided.
So that's that's the squareslashwheel.
In the book, I talk about withone parent who is anxious, you
can slide up anxiety or you canhave secure experiences with
(16:01):
them.
So you can you can slide on thewheel with one person, you slide
on the wheel.
So either you're really on thebottom and you're in like
security, or you can slide up.
They're a little bit anxious.
If they're anxious, if theiranxiety increases to like
terror, rage, abuse, and youturn up the volume on the
anxiety, you get to the top,which is disorganization.
(16:23):
So with one parent, you can haveall of those experiences.
Now on the other side, securityagain, on the on the bottom, and
let's say you have a dad who's alittle bit more avoidant.
You can slide sometimes he'savailable, sometimes he's
checked out, right?
If you go up the side, the leftside, you're gonna get more and
more avoidance to you get tolike neglect, extreme neglect
(16:45):
and turn back, and then you getto disorganized.
So basically, as you go up thesides, you're turning up the
volume on either the anxious orthe avoidant kind of symptoms or
patterns, and then you get todisorganize at the top.
So in one household, you canhave experiences of everything.
With one person, you might evenhave experiences of everything.
(17:09):
So it's not that static, like,oh, my dad was always avoidant.
Maybe your dad was avoidant,checked out, but then you have
these moments of security withhim.
And what was that?
So let's not put someone in justone category.
Let's start to look at the wholepicture.
And then once you kind of dothat with your family of origin,
(17:29):
we overlay that onto yourcurrent relationship patterns
and we start to see like what'son repeat um in the book, we do
that work.
SPEAKER_00 (17:38):
All right.
So for everyone listening, um,just remember to go back and
check out the show notes.
We'll also obviously have thelink um to her book, which is
coming out the day this airs onOctober 28th.
And we'll also have the link tothe wheel for you as well.
Was that hard to, I mean, wasthat hard to understand?
No, I mean, I I feel like I gota really good sense of what
(17:59):
you're talking about.
Um so everyone will let us knowwhat you think.
SPEAKER_01 (18:04):
Um it took me a while to really like take it in.
So I'm sure like you're gonnahear it once, and maybe it's a
little confusing, but if youreally start to, you really have
to sit with it for a while tounderstand to understand it, you
know.
SPEAKER_00 (18:17):
I'm already imagining people and myself as a
mother and caregiver in thiswhole cycle.
Um, it's really an it's afascinating conversation because
you can't help but notice yourown experiences or both your
your with your parents, but alsoas a parent, where you show up
in this.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:36):
And a lot of parents listening might be beating
themselves up too much.
SPEAKER_00 (18:40):
Feeling like I'm gonna call my college-age son
right after this episode.
And apologies.
SPEAKER_01 (18:46):
No, we can only pass down what we know, and most
parents are doing the best theycan.
So there's always rupture andrepair.
So don't be too hard onyourself.
SPEAKER_00 (18:56):
There, there we go.
All right.
Well, let's talk about why talktherapy alone sometimes is not
enough to heal attachmentwounds.
What role does the body play intrue transformation?
SPEAKER_01 (19:07):
Everything.
SPEAKER_00 (19:08):
All right, let's talk about it.
Let's unpack that.
SPEAKER_01 (19:12):
You know, I think that a lot of the population
understand, you know, attachmentstyles, but like the next
question is like, how do we healthem?
And that's really what you knowwhat I'm addressing in the book.
But so our attachment patternsand wounds that are created in
childhood and and influence usright now are stored in our
(19:33):
body, mostly through sensation.
And so by we can't think our wayout of them, um, they will
continue to re reenact in ourlives, but without going to the
body and holding the sensationtogether, usually with another
nervous system, but withoutgoing into like, oh, every time
(19:54):
my husband does this, my heartdrops, or my chest tightens, or
my belly gets queasy, right?
Like these sensations that arehappening in our body are
attachment memories.
And so without kind of going tothe sensational experience in
the body and holding thattogether, we're just like
(20:16):
talking about it.
We're not actually being withthe original memory, we're not
building the capacity togetherto hold the discomfort, the
wound, the pain, whatever it is.
We need to hold it because thattype of holding wasn't provided
for us when we were younger.
And now when we are with theseexperiences, we need to be with
(20:38):
the body and what's happeningsomatically in the body, or else
we're really not healing it.
We're not, we're not buildingthe capacity to hold it.
We're not moving it from thebody into the right hemisphere
and integrating it into the lefthemisphere.
So we have to go to the body.
It's so important.
And if you're doing attachmentwork with someone, either bring
the book to them or make surethat they are going into the
(21:02):
body with you, that they're justnot just talking about it
because it's it's so important.
I want people to heal, not justget educated, but also start to
be able to heal.
SPEAKER_00 (21:10):
Well, let's talk about what it feels like.
Can you describe?
I think a lot of people getreally confused with connection.
We've talked about this beforeon the show of how sometimes
connection people actually thinkthe butterfly feeling is a good
thing.
And often where it's the nervoussystem saying alarms are going
off.
(21:31):
What is emotional safetysupposed to feel like in the
body?
And how can the listeners beginto understand it better or
notice when that's missing?
SPEAKER_01 (21:40):
Yeah, and I think a lot of people mistake intensity
for like love and stuff likethat.
Um true safety is when someoneis in what we call their ventral
nervous system enough.
We're floating out of differentstates, but I call the ventral
is the highest form of evolutionfor us humans is to be in a
(22:02):
ventral state.
It's Stephen Porges's work.
So, like you're making eyecontact with me, uh, we're open,
we're feeling safe to sharetogether.
Our breath is in a certain way.
Mine is probably a little speedyright now, but there's a sense
of safety from my nervous systemto your nervous system, that we
are safe together and we canfeel that together.
(22:25):
So it's really important thatwhen you're doing this work,
that you have someone who has acontainer of safety for your
nervous system to drop into whatwe call your implicit world.
So, what happens a lot is thatpeople who are used to chaos or
have been avoiding or um haven'tdone the work, they'll find
(22:50):
someone who is safe and they'llbe scared or they'll be like, I
don't want to sit here, or thisis really uncomfortable for me,
or I don't know how to staypresent with this person who's
really holding this state ofsafety.
Because as we approach the stateof safety, if it's like the
first time or whatever, we haveto also get vulnerable.
(23:12):
So this is like the grounds forvulnerability.
So a lot of people eitherstruggle with safety because
it's foreign to their nervoussystem.
They never had anyone being soemotionally present or attuned
to them.
So that can be one way of like,you know, when they say, Oh,
this guy's boring, or this isjust flat, or I can't be
(23:36):
underwhelming.
SPEAKER_00 (23:36):
Yeah, I don't feel that intensity or excitement.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (23:40):
Or even I'm gonna push them away because they're
so available.
Yeah.
It's because our nervous systemisn't used to that type of
availability, because that typeof availability and emotional
presence is intimacy, but italso brings vulnerability and it
kind of brings us right intolike the real world.
And we might have to be with thepresent moment.
(24:00):
We're not, you know.
So true safety can wake up alot.
I mean, and and the science isthe true safety of another
person is really the catalystfor healing.
But if you don't know that'slike what's being awakened, and
you can scare you, or it couldbe something that you don't want
to go towards because it mightbe foreign for your nervous
system.
SPEAKER_00 (24:19):
That makes a lot of sense.
Okay.
So there's a lot of intellectualawareness about this.
I think I know a lot of peoplethat are like kind of get this
on an intellectual level, buthow do we move someone from that
intellectual awareness of I knowI do this, I get this, to
actually shifting their behaviorand relationship?
(24:41):
I'm sure it goes back to thisanchoring conversation that we
started with.
But if you could walk us throughwhat that looks like from
shifting from an awareness to anactual living.
SPEAKER_01 (24:53):
Yeah, I think that as you start to heal and you
start to create awareness forwhat's going on in your body and
you start to hold, like, everytime my my boyfriend does this,
I react by screaming, right?
Like the reaction time is likesuper fast.
As we start to slow down and belike, okay, when your boyfriend
(25:14):
does this, like what is itwaking up in your body?
Can we start to go there andlike let's be with that for a
while?
You're building a capacity forwhatever's going on inside of
you with the help, right?
So over time, what you're doingis you're building space.
So you're gonna build arelationship for with whatever
(25:36):
he's waking up inside of you.
You're gonna learn to be withit, you're gonna learn to maybe
even attach it to the roots.
We're gonna hold it together,and you're building your
capacity for what was justuncomfortable inside of you.
And as you build that capacityand compassion and relationship
with what's going on inside ofyou, you're creating space so
(25:59):
that when the behavior shows upand you want to react, you're
gonna build the space to havewhat we call response
flexibility.
So you're gonna be able to say,okay, he's doing this behavior.
Normally I want to throw a shoeat his face or whatever you want
to do.
But now I know it's waking upthis intensity in me.
Now I've started to be withwhat's going on inside me.
(26:20):
Now I start to understand whatit really is.
So there's a space that happensover time through like
neuroplasticity and healing sothat I know, oh my God, he's
waking up these early memoriesor this intensity, and I can be
both a witness of what's goingon inside me, a witness of what
he's doing.
And eventually I start to havechoices.
(26:42):
So I don't become, I'm not asreactive.
So that takes time.
All of that work takes time tochange our behaviors.
It doesn't just happen becausethat's automatic, right?
So it takes time to build thattolerance to be with what's
going on inside of us and notreact automatically.
SPEAKER_00 (27:01):
Okay.
This I hear a lot.
Um, many people, especiallywomen, describe feeling they're
too much or they're not enough.
It's either one or the other,right?
How do attachment wounds feedthese beliefs about ourselves
and what helps to rewrite them?
I cannot begin to tell you,particularly in the
(27:22):
high-achieving women who havegone out and done big things
early on in life, likely toprove something, to secure
affection from their familiesearly on, all that sort of
thing, later in life, findthemselves, I can tell you, in a
circle of friends, several ofthem saying, I think I'm just
too much for most of the guys Imeet.
(27:44):
And then I have a whole othercrop of friends and uh
girlfriends that will say, Ijust never feel like I'm enough,
no matter what I do.
It's never enough.
SPEAKER_01 (27:56):
Well, I mean, sounds like they are attracting their
familiar.
unknown (28:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (28:01):
So if they have big feelings and they had parents
that didn't know have thecapacity to be with their big
feelings and help the them alsobe with their own big feelings,
and then they go out and theymaybe pick a more avoidant
partner because that's theirfamiliar, then that partner
can't handle their big feelings,and they're like stuck right
(28:23):
back in their childhood dynamicof I keep picking people who
think I'm too much.
When the truth is I am totallyvalid in my big feelings, I just
never had the people help mehold them in the first place and
help me understand them and bewith them.
And so I'm going to pick peoplewho ironically are gonna tell me
I'm too much again.
(28:46):
So the same is true for theother side, you know what I'm
saying?
So it's like asking that person,like, when were your big
feelings too much?
What parent couldn't hold thatexperience with you?
Because our feelings are nevertoo much, but our parents'
capacity to be with our feelingsare sometimes very limited.
SPEAKER_00 (29:04):
Right.
Oh so true, so true.
Okay, let's talk a little bitabout for those listeners who
maybe are in currently inrelationship or marriages, how
can partners support each otherand healing without falling into
a cycle of codependency?
SPEAKER_01 (29:24):
I don't love the word codependency, but in the
book I talk a lot about traumabonding and breaking that.
And so I think sometimescodependency is around fear.
You know, what parts of thisrelationship are we controlling
each other because we don't wantto feel our core wound?
(29:45):
We can get stuck in thosedynamics.
Um one of the things I say isthat when we think, oh, if my
partner could just actdifferently, then I would be
okay.
That's a sign that we might betrauma bonding or.
Um I want to control my partnerbecause I think maybe in the
(30:06):
beginning they gave me this andthey're not giving me that
anymore, and I'm going to getstuck in this cycle of trying to
get them to act a certain way soI can feel a certain way.
And normally what's happening,and it was a breakthrough moment
for me, but is I'm trying to getto feeling special or feeling
seen or not being left.
I'm trying so hard to resolvethis with someone who can't
(30:29):
resolve it for me, to avoidactually not feeling special,
actually being left.
So to avoid the original wound,I'm working really hard with
someone who I think might beable to, you know, take that
away from me.
But ironically, they just keeprecreating it.
And that's what a child has todo in a family because we don't
(30:53):
have the choice to say, okay,let's say you were my mom and
you're responding a certain way.
I have to keep trying with you.
But when we're in adultrelationships, we can get stuck
with that little boy or thatlittle girl, keep trying with
our partner, and our partner isnot capable of giving us what we
want, or we think they'recapable because they did it in
(31:14):
the beginning before theprotectors come up.
So we just keep trying andtrying and trying, and we're
spinning our wheels to try toavoid the pain inside.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:26):
Okay.
Let's talk about maybe smalldaily practices that people can
use or do that you'verecommended that you've
experienced.
And I want to talk about yourown experience here in a minute
to build that emotional safetyand regulate the nervous system
over time.
And if this goes into some ofyour self-ful work, please go
(31:49):
ahead and tell us more aboutthat.
SPEAKER_01 (31:53):
Yeah, I mean, you can extend your exhales always
and trick your body back intosafety because the respiratory
system is the one system that wehave access to when we're in a
state of dysregulation.
So if you're reallydysregulated, stop thinking
about the problem.
Do some box breathing and extendyour exhales, and your body will
(32:15):
go back into a state of safety.
You will trick it back intosafety, safe uh safety.
But a big message with the bookis some people can't
self-regulate.
They just can't.
And so the only way to learn howto self-regulate is through
really good co-regulation.
(32:36):
And if we didn't getco-regulation, like really good
co-regulation as infants and asyoung ones, we're not going to
have really greatself-regulation.
So, co-regulation, the abilityto join someone else's nervous
system and have them lend theirparasympathetic system to us to
help us calm down.
SPEAKER_00 (32:57):
So that would be like a parent soothing a child
that's having an experience toget them back to a state of
regulation.
SPEAKER_01 (33:05):
Yeah, and it's it's soothing, but it's also just
being with the discomfort thatthe child is going and lending
your system.
So that child is using yournervous system as a way to get
back into a state of regulation.
This happens because when we'reborn, we're not born with a
parasympathetic nervous systemfully developed.
(33:28):
So we literally need our primarycaregiver to lend us their
parasympathetic nervous systemso we can co-regulate and build
our nervous system from there.
So if our parent was anxious oravoidant or really struggled
with internal problems orexternal stress, whatever, and
(33:49):
they didn't couldn't hold ourdysregulation and co-regulate
with us, we grew up later inlife not with the ability, not
knowing how to self-regulate.
So we literally can't learn toself-regulate out of the blue.
Many people turn to alcohol.
We turn to whatever we turn to,we need to experience a lot of
(34:11):
good co-regulation in order todevelop self-regulation.
So I think the biggest message Iwant to get out to people is
that if you're not regulatingyour nervous system, it might
not be your fault.
You might actually have notinternalized enough of the
capacity for self-regulation andyou might need really great
anchoring.
(34:31):
Because what happens throughgreat anchoring and
co-regulation is that after awhile, through mirror neurons
and residence circuits, is thatwe internalize that person.
So, Michelle, if you were myanchor and my therapist or an
anchor, I talk about anchoringrelationships, and I was really
upset.
And I go to you and you don'ttry to fix me, um, but you're
(34:54):
just with me in my emotionalexperience and you help me by
being present with me, attuningto me, and be and joining with
me.
After a while, I actuallyinternalize that support within
me.
This is what a secure baby does.
So we internalize each other.
So if I can internalize you andyou're in a state of safety and
(35:17):
you are with me through mydysregulation, eventually you
become part of me and thatregulation gets internalized.
Essentially, that's how we moveto earn security.
And it comes from our ability topick safe people now to anchor
us, to internalize them, to thenchange the state of safety and
(35:38):
security within our own nervoussystem.
And it's through anchoringrelationships because that's
what a baby needs.
They need secure, safe parentsto show up and anchor them.
And if their parents wereanxious or avoidant or
disorganized, that's what weinternalize.
And so later in life, as we dothe attachment healing work, we
need to re-interalize safepeople in order to change our
(36:03):
felt sense in our body ofsafety.
SPEAKER_00 (36:07):
So in adulthood, let's talk about this because I
think this anchoring, findingthose anchor people in your life
is so critically important,regardless of whether or not
you're in a marriage or aromantic relationship, or
frankly, you're surrounded witha group of friends.
Um, or if you're not, what areyou gonna do?
Right.
Because I do think that thereare a lot of men, particularly
(36:29):
in adulthood, who have fewer andfewer friends to turn on to turn
to turn to for emotionalsupport.
Um, and I would, I would say,like one of the wonderful things
about being a woman in this dayand age is increasingly I think
there's awareness of we needeach other and we show up for
each other.
Um, anchoring connection canhappen with anyone that you're
(36:52):
close with.
Like, could it be through aclose friend if you're not in a
relationship?
Does it have to be with yourpartner?
I mean, ideally, it would bewith your partner in your love
relationship.
But let's just say in life, umsomebody doesn't have a partner.
I have a couple friends who areeither divorced or never
married.
Um, and I notice a relianceheavily on the girlfriend
(37:16):
network.
Um, it's a real thing forsupport and security and
guidance as they move throughlife.
SPEAKER_01 (37:25):
Yeah, I mean, I did a lot of work with my partner,
but the truth is my anchoringexperiences did not come from
romantic partnership.
Most of my reenact, my traumareenactment comes from that.
But it can come from yourromantic relationship.
Sometimes you need like a Magotherapy or need another nervous
system in the in the room tohelp that relationship get
(37:46):
through some rough patches.
But anchoring, and I I talkabout this in the book,
anchoring relationships comefrom special people who have the
capacity to show up for us anddon't judge us, can maintain a
state of safety.
And often this doesn't, isn'talways in romantic relationships
because we're telepathing.
(38:07):
Like if you and I are reallyclose and I get scared, your
system is more likely to pick upon that.
But if you're an anchoringperson and you're not my
partner, you might not getscared as easily in that kind of
relationship.
So there are people who have acapacity to hold the state of
safety, eventual state enoughfor us that don't judge us and
that truly listen to us.
(38:29):
And I have like three or fouranchoring relationships.
And I talk about co-anchoringand the quality of that we can
give each other when we'reco-anchoring.
And if you have really earlyattachment wounds, then you need
more of like a professional toanchor you.
(39:09):
And if I continue to meet thisperson, my nervous system is
starting to register this aslove, as care.
And I will attract more of it.
And not only will I attract moreof it, the more I experience it
in my nervous system and in mybeing, and the work shows up in
(39:30):
this relationship, um, the moreI can actually give it to others
too.
So I can start to become aco-anchor.
So I talk about in the book likefinding your anchors, I talk
about co-anchoring, I talk aboutwhat we need in these anchoring
relationships.
And most people who come to medon't have one anchoring
relationship.
(39:50):
Females too.
And I and we can go through theRolodex, and sometimes they find
someone that they didn't eventhink but they had the capacity.
And then through working withme, they now know really what
that is, and then they start tolook for more and more of that
in their world.
So you're just basically lookingfor really emotionally available
people who are anchoring.
And in our culture, in this dayand age, like unfortunately,
(40:15):
like it takes a little bit ofwork to find your anchoring
people.
SPEAKER_00 (40:20):
So well stated.
I want to step back for a minutebecause obviously you wrote your
first book back in 2024, 2022.
Two.
2022.
So it's been a few years.
And I probably wrote it likebefore that, too.
It came out in 2020.
Okay, it came out in 2022, andthat was Anxiously attached,
(40:41):
becoming more secure in life andlove.
And now you have this new bookcoming out.
Tell me a little bit about theprocess.
What inspired you to focus onattachment and the nervous
system as keys to emotionalhealing?
Obviously, I know you have yourown story in this.
So tell us a little bit aboutthe work that you've done and
how you came to write both ofthese books that are so needed.
SPEAKER_01 (41:05):
I talk about an anxiously attached, like when I
was like 19 and I ended up inthe emergency room with like an
anxiety attack, not knowing likewhat was going on with me.
And I remember um I rememberpicking up the book Facing
Codependency.
And I just remember as like ayoung girl feeling like, oh,
finally, there's some words tolike explain what I'm feeling,
(41:29):
you know.
Like, I don't love the wordcodependency anymore, but like
facing codependency was like, itwas like no one understood me,
but finally I picked up a bookthat understood me.
And I I now what I know thisbook and how healing happens, I
didn't know this at the time,but I read every single
(41:50):
self-help book under the sun.
They soothed me, they gave mesome answers, they did not heal
me.
I could you can't heal through abook, but they definitely
soothed me and they started togive me some answers.
I'm um an imagotherapist, I'm arelationship expert, I study
attachment theory and I studyunder Bonnie Badanach,
(42:12):
interpersonal neurobiology.
When I came across attachmenttheory, everything like
codependency, everything startedto make sense.
Because attachment theory, andwhen you start to really dive
into it, like forget aboutcodependency.
That's just a word.
Like when you understandattachment theory, it's like, oh
my God, like my world, I waslike, everything is starting to
(42:36):
make sense to me.
Um, so I studied attachmenttheory, but I knew with
anxiously attached, even thoughI knew a lot of the science, my
goal was there are so manypeople who are suffering with
the same behaviors that I have,with the label of codependency,
with self-sacrifice that arerepeating their patterns.
And all of this is reallyattachment.
(42:57):
And so I need to bring thatcodependent audience into the
attachment space becauseattachment is the science of it
all.
And it's very layered andnuanced and very well
researched.
I was with a in a relationshipin Anxiously attached, and he
was doing a lot of work with me.
And at one point, he decided hedidn't want to do the work
(43:19):
anymore.
Like the saddest thing in mylife because I did not, I did
really love this human being somuch.
I, because of the science andbecause of everything that I was
doing, I was like, I'm gonnacontinue.
I'm just gonna keep showing up,I'm gonna keep doing the
attachment work.
I had the best support.
I understood the science, whichis what I provide in the book.
(43:40):
Like, I'm giving you guys what Ihad because if I didn't have the
science, I would have thoughtmaybe I was going crazy at
certain junctures.
Then I had people coming to mesaying, Well, I'm anxiously
attached, but I have avoidantthis and I'm this and I'm that.
And I dive deeper intointerpersonal neurobiology.
That's where the wheel ofattachment came up.
And I'm like, I have to answerthe the questions that are
(44:01):
people now are coming to me.
Um, I did humbly, I had so muchmore work to do that I didn't
know that I had to do.
I left that relationship becausehe chose to not do the work.
And you can stay and leave him.
That's but I chose to leave,which was very hard.
But then more work came up forme.
Um, and so the science and myown personal work, and then like
(44:24):
all the feedback from Anxiouslyattached, like was the way that
Safe was born, the the you know,three years later.
SPEAKER_00 (44:32):
Very brave.
I mean, it's it's uh one thingto say, hey, doesn't want to do
the work, um, and but I don'tknow what else to do, so I'm
gonna hang out here.
It's a much harder thing toleave when you know that it's
not going to go where you wantit to go.
So kudos to you because I thinkyou're modeling the exact
(44:52):
behavior.
Of course, you're looking at itfrom a different prism as a
researcher and as a umtherapist, but I also think
you're modeling behavior that somany people want to be able to
do and find it so very hard.
SPEAKER_01 (45:08):
So I think as you start to do the real work, hold
the experiences in your body,either that person's behaviors
don't wake up as much and youcan coexist, or you decide this
person isn't giving me what Ineed and you leave.
Both of those can be rightanswers.
It doesn't mean if you do thework, you're gonna leave.
(45:28):
If you do the work, you mighthave more compassion for your
partner, you might have morespace for their behaviors, you
might be fine.
Or if you do the work, you mightsay, you know what, my partner
has these behaviors, and Ireally need this, and I can't
get what I need from thisrelationship, so I have to
choose to leave.
But that was, yeah, that was,and I'll say this to your
audience (45:47):
like as someone who understands the science and
wrote the books, like you can'tbypass the work.
And that was probably thehardest decision I ever made in
my whole life.
I mean, there are still dayswhere I wish had my partner had
been a little more courageousand had done the work, we could
have evolved together.
But I know that like everybodycan do what's in their capacity,
(46:12):
and I now have learned to reallyrespect where people are at, and
I'm not the anxious personsaying, you avoid it, need to do
the work anymore.
I'm like, you don't want to dothe work, that's fine, but I'm
gonna go over here because Ineed to get what I need.
But I wasn't always like that.
SPEAKER_00 (46:27):
So well, I think that that's the the hope that we
all have though, that we makethe choices that we need to for
what we have and recognize thatwhere people are, they show you
where their limits are, really,at the end of the day.
SPEAKER_01 (46:42):
I mean, I talk in seven about trauma bonding.
I think what happens with peoplewith early wounding, which I
definitely fall in thatcategory, is that we
over-identify with our partner'swounds.
Like I identified a lot and Iwanted him to heal, but the
truth is I really needed tofocus more on my wounds.
And if he wasn't willing tofocus on going inward and
(47:02):
healing his wounds to the samecapacity, I wasn't going to save
him, right?
And so that's that's kind oflike the anxious person wants to
do that, but really the turninginward and being with what's
going on inside of me, whichwhich was which was what I
really needed.
But that was a really areorienting and a letting go,
and that was that was reallyhard.
SPEAKER_00 (47:25):
All right, as we begin to wrap, I want to give
you the final words.
So, what's one truth orunderstanding or awakening that
you hope every reader andlistener will take away about
love and healing and coming hometo your ourselves?
SPEAKER_01 (47:42):
I mean, I hope that everybody who listens can walk
away from this book with like aclear understanding of what
healing is and what they need inorder to move down that path.
Um, and I hope that they have asensational experience when
they're reading the book thathelps them attach implicit
(48:03):
attachment wounds with memory.
I hope that they can make thatconnection through reading the
book, like what this type ofmemory is.
It's not explicit, it'ssensational.
I hope they can leave the bookand be like, oh, that feeling in
my chest is actually memory.
I hope they can make thatconnection.
SPEAKER_00 (48:22):
It's been very powerful and illuminating
conversation.
So thank you, Jessica.
For anyone who resonated withwhat we've been talking about
today, where can they find moreabout your work and connect with
you online?
SPEAKER_01 (48:36):
Yeah, well, there's a link that I provided you that
um, if you buy the book and youfill it out immediately and
check your spam, you'll get abeyond the labels, you'll get
the wheel of attachment.
And um I just I want to share mymy mentor who wrote Heart of
Trauma.
I have a 40-minute conversationabout what it feels like to move
from insecurity to security inyour body and a talk that's free
(49:00):
with anyone who buys the bookand is for your audience.
So those two things, please fillout the form.
You get them.
I'm really happy to share.
She's an anchor for me, andshe's like, um, she's like the
the therapist guru who teachesus therapists.
So I'm just trying to get herout there to the public because
I she's impacted me so much.
(49:22):
So you get those two things, andthen I'm on Instagram at Jessica
Baum LMHC.
I will try to respond toeverybody.
I try to like respond as best Ican to everyone.
So if you get the book andyou're, you know, moved by it or
you want to reach out, I reallydo try to respond.
And then I have a consciousrelationship group.
So I have a team of like sixtherapists who work coaching,
(49:46):
you know, and we work onhealing, helping people heal
attachment wounds.
And so we can work virtually ifyou want to do some individual
work.
SPEAKER_00 (49:54):
Wonderful.
Thank you so much, Jessica.
Again, this has been JessicaBaum, and her new book is Safe
Coming Home to Yourself andOthers.
It is out October 28th.
I hope that you'll check it out.
Please make sure you go to theshow notes.
The link that Jessica hasreferred to is going to be in
there.
Um, and you can get some of thefree gifts that she's referring
(50:16):
to when you purchase the book.
So again, Jessica, thank you foryour time and your expertise and
for walking us through thisreally important conversation
that really impacts all of us.
SPEAKER_01 (50:28):
Thank you so much for having me.
It was great.
SPEAKER_00 (50:31):
All right, everyone.
Until next time, go and liveyour extraordinary life.
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