November 19, 2024 • 50 mins
Download the Level 5 Friendship Playbook at https://menhuddle.com.
In this episode of the Manhood Tribes Show, Don interviews Jeff Kemp, a former NFL quarterback and former VP at Family Life.
They discuss Jeff's book 'Receive: The Way of Jesus for Men', which addresses the crisis of male friendship and how men can develop close relationships.
Jeff emphasizes adopting the identity of being God's son, the importance of consistent and deep friendships, and practical steps on how to pursue and maintain these connections.
Jeff also shares personal anecdotes and practical advice for men feeling isolated or friendless.
00:00 Introduction to the Manhood Tribe Show
01:52 Interview with Jeff Kemp: Building Male Friendships
04:26 The Crisis of Male Identity and Friendship
07:15 Receiving Identity from God
12:53 Practical Steps to Embrace Your Identity
17:05 Living as a Son: Daily Practices
26:04 Tennis and Marriage: A Lesson in Identity
28:29 The Importance of Identity in Friendships
30:33 The Epidemic of Loneliness Among Men
35:28 Building Deep Friendships: Level 4 and Level 5
41:18 Practical Steps to Cultivate Level 5 Friendships
45:23 Finding Friends and God's Guidance
48:05 Resources for Building Strong Friendships
💪 Want to know how you measure up as a man? Take our free quiz, called How Manly Are You? and learn how you can get better at being a man. Download for free at manhoodtribes.com/manly. 💪
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Don Ross (00:18):
Guys want to know how you measure up as a man?
I've got a great resource foryou.
It's called how manly are you?
And it's a free quiz that youcan take to figure out how you
stack up against what it meansto be a man.
And when you take the quiz,you'll also get some free
resources to help you figure outhow you can get better as a man
in the areas where you wouldlike to grow.
(00:39):
So go to manhoodtribes.com/manlyto download your free.
How manly are you quiz today?
That's manhoodtribes.com/manly.
All right, man.
Welcome to the manhood tribeshow.
My name is Don.
I'm really glad to be with youtoday.
And if you have been followingalong for the past few episodes,
(01:01):
you know that I have wrapped upa series on what it looks like
to build close friends and howto take those close friendships
and turn it into a tribe.
And so I'm really excited havingkind of finished up that series.
Now that we're going to cap itoff with a great interview with
Jeff Kemp.
Jeff is a former NFL quarter.
Quarterback.
And a former VP at family life,a ministry of campus crusade for
(01:25):
Christ, two marriages andfamilies.
And Jeff is now a speaker andauthor and has written a book
called receive the way of Jesusfor men.
This book is really all aboutkind of the crisis of male
friendship in our culture rightnow, and what men can do to
develop close friends.
So you can obviously see it'sgoing to relate a lot to what
(01:46):
we've talked about in thisseries.
And Jeff is just full of wisdom.
I think you're going to learn aton from him.
So I want to go ahead and jumpinto our interview today with
Jeff Kemp.
I hope you enjoy.
All right, Jeff Kemp.
Hey, welcome to the manhoodtribe show.
Really glad to have you today.
Jeff Kemp (02:04):
Hey, thanks, Tom.
Good to be with you, man.
Don Ross (02:06):
Yeah, absolutely.
So, I'm, I'm really excited tobe able to talk with you, about
just the whole topic offriendship.
I've just kind of wrapped up aseries on men and friendship and
just know what it, like a big,significant topic.
This is at the moment in ourculture and in our world.
And you've written a book.
What's it called?
called receive the way of Jesusfor men, that really does a lot
(02:27):
about men and friendship, butI'm, I'm kind of curious, you
know, just the way that bookpublishing and book reading in
particular for men goes thesedays.
Like, you know, why write a bookand why write this book in
particular for men right now?
Jeff Kemp (02:41):
I've been speaking to men and men's conferences, men's
retreats, uh, coaching leaders,hanging out with guys, coaching
football teams for my wholelife.
And I've done a lot of ministryto marriages, but honestly, if
you really want to make a bigdifference, you got to get to
the husband like directly andtalk, man, talk to him.
Um, So being that that's myfield and there was a bunch of
(03:05):
messages in me and I kind ofwanted to organize them.
I wanted to write a book formen.
Um, and I was going to call itreal good man.
Like be be real, be authentic.
Don't fake it.
You know, just be who you are.
Um, and secondly, be benevolent.
Make a difference for others.
Use your strength for someoneelse's benefit.
That's good.
Be good.
So real and good.
(03:25):
And, uh, when COVID hit, um, allmy speaking shut down, all my
travel, my wife said, Hey, thisis good.
You've been gone too much.
This is an opportunity also to,you know, not just hang out with
me because I'm lonely, but thisis a good chance to write that
book you were supposed to bewriting.
So I pour, I poured into, uh,Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John,
and I underlined and highlightedevery single place where Jesus.
(03:48):
As kind of the quintessentialrole model man, uh, was spoken
of or acted, uh, what he said.
And I discovered a bunch of coolstuff about what he did.
I mean, he was radically humble,outrageously courageous,
dignified women, uh, trained hisguys.
Um, he was so purposeful.
(04:10):
You know, um, he was not afraidof blitzes and shifting gears
and changing, you know, um, butthe thing that blew me away
wasn't the what of Jesus'smanhood, it was the how, it was
the way he did it.
And the gist of it was thatJesus didn't perform his
manhood.
(04:31):
He didn't earn his identity.
He received all of it.
And in John, it has a bunch ofpassages where he says, my
father's always at work and soam I, I do whatever he says.
He says, whatever my fatherspeaks, I speak, whatever he
tells me to do.
I do.
Then he says, I, the son can donothing apart from my father.
(04:51):
And I was like, Whoa, drop themic, slow down, listen to that.
If Jesus, this, I can doeverything, walk in the water,
raised from the dead, you know,God in human manhood form said,
I can do nothing apart from thefather in that case, I think it
was because he was a so humble.
B so connected to his father andC chose to be dependent on him.
(05:16):
It was almost like he had ahelmet on like quarterbacks in
the NFL today, listening to whatthe coaches are saying in that
little speaker, getting his playreal time from his father.
And so I changed the whole titleof the book to receive because I
think there's too much pressureon men to think, I got to figure
out my identity as a goodChristian husband, dad, you
(05:38):
know, leader, a humble guy, uh,do the right stuff with money,
don't mess around with porn.
And pretty soon you fail
Don Ross (05:47):
Right.
Jeff Kemp (05:48):
and then you feel a third and a fourth.
Don Ross (05:50):
to succeed at.
Jeff Kemp (05:51):
Yeah.
you fail a fourth, a fifth and a55th time.
At that point, you're kind ofafraid to tell your friend about
it.
And you're wondering if Godreally forgives you.
And then Satan comes in andsays, you didn't just do bad.
You are bad.
You know, God, God says, Hey,you did bad.
Tell me you're sorry.
And I'll forgive you.
But Satan says, you're bad andyou're hopeless.
(06:12):
And that shame message is runthrough a lot of guys heads,
even from their childhood, whentheir dad said, you'll never
amount to anything, you know,I'm leaving your mom and the
family for a new wife, whichmakes the kid feel like.
You know, I'm not valued.
I'm not important.
Don Ross (06:27):
Yeah.
Jeff Kemp (06:27):
Um, So anyway, I changed the title to Receive.
That's the way Jesus lived.
He received it all from theFather, and it frees us men from
the performance model ofidentity earning, the
performance model of manhood,the performance version of
Christianity.
Don Ross (06:48):
Yeah.
Jeff Kemp (06:49):
And honestly, that's really been the problem all
through history.
We get a little bit of God, andthen we try to do it ourself.
Don Ross (06:56):
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The God helps those who helpthemselves, you know, kind of
mentality.
Jeff Kemp (07:01):
What verse is that?
Don Ross (07:02):
Yeah, exactly.
Uh, it's not one.
If for those of you who arelistening, who maybe aren't sure
about that, that is not a verse,but yeah.
Uh, okay.
This is great, man.
I'm, I love where you're gettingat and, and kind of the
direction that you're headed in.
And so this is, this is what Iwant to ask is just, yeah, I
think what you're describing,you know, kind of men getting
their sense of identity fromtheir work or, you know, the
(07:26):
woman or the women in theirlives, you know, any kind of,
you know, our financial success,you know, name what you want to
like, I think men understandthat almost intuitively because
it's, you know, it's the oceanthat we all swim in.
But when you're talking aboutreceiving a sense of identity,
uh, from God, like I think mostof us don't even have a clue,
That's not a category that evenmakes sense.
(07:47):
So like, can you walk us throughthat a little bit?
Like what, what does that, whatdoes that even look like?
How do we receive a sense ofidentity from God?
Jeff Kemp (07:54):
That's, that's a really helpful and key question
that we oftentimes don't ask,but I'll just start with how
Jesus received his identity fromhis father.
Um, the premise is you receiveyour identity from the one who
created you.
Not manufacture it yourself.
Don Ross (08:11):
Right.
Sure.
Jeff Kemp (08:13):
So therefore identity is relational, not achievement
oriented.
Don Ross (08:19):
Hmm.
Yeah.
Jeff Kemp (08:21):
Okay.
I achieved NFL backupquarterback who got to start as
a quarterback for two and a halfyears.
Was I a starter and then not astarter?
Was I a backup?
And then not even an NFLquarterback.
When I got cut, did I lose myidentity when I no longer was a
(08:42):
quarterback?
Uh, did my identity inflate whenI was doing great and they were
cheering and did it deflate whenI was released from the NFL and
didn't have that job and statusanymore?
Uh, the true answer is no, but.
Man, you know how much we go inthe tank when stuff goes wrong
at work or with our wife or youknow, we're not impressive, our
(09:04):
pickup trucks doesn't have asmany bells and whistles and
isn't brand new like the otherguy that has three of them and a
boat being pulled behind his.
Um, so identity is received andJesus received it relationally.
So do we.
So it starts with, take a look,um, at Jesus in the river being
baptized by John.
(09:28):
comes down in a dove and hisvoice thunders from heaven and
says, this is my son.
So there's his identity.
My beloved son, he'sunconditionally loved.
That is his security.
And then he says, I take delightand pleasure in him.
That's his approval, whichevery, every boy wants his dad
(09:51):
to pat him on the back and says,son, you got what it takes.
I believe in you.
You're, you're a man, uh, youknow, join the company of men.
You're going to do great things.
Uh, I know your third string.
Don't worry about it.
Someday you'll be a starter.
I know.
You don't seem like you have alot of friends, but you're the
friendliest little kid I know,and that's going to be a great
trade as a man.
My dad was that kind of guy tome, but not in a perfect way,
(10:13):
the way Abba Father was toJesus.
And then Jesus again got hisidentity bestowed upon him.
at the Mount of Transfigurationwhen he took his three best
friends, and we'll get to thatin a minute, the type of
friendship Jesus wants for us,Peter, James, and John.
So he's up on the mountain, andthe Father again speaks about
him and says, This is my son,identity, my beloved son,
(10:35):
unconditionally loved andsecure, in whom I take delight
and pleasure, total approval.
And then he says this, He is thechosen one.
Listen to him.
That's his place in this world.
That's his purpose.
That's his mission.
That's his calling.
Every man is made to achieve.
To conquer, to overcome, to makethings better, to protect, to
(10:58):
use his strength to make lifebetter for the vulnerable or the
weak, or just anyone.
And so God gives Jesus all fourof those gifts, and He received
them from His Father.
Well, in 21, it says that Godmade Jesus, who knew He was
perfect, and lived the perfectlife with all the temptations,
(11:20):
but never sinned, to be thepunishment for sin, for Don and
Jeff and all the other dudesthat mess up all the time.
including trying to do it ontheir own, which is part of the
messing up, uh, for those who dosin so that we could be made the
righteousness of God.
He gives us credit for Jesus'srighteousness.
So it's like our bank accountall of a sudden has a trillion
dollars of righteousness that wecan go to God and say, Hey, I
(11:44):
belong with you.
And secondly, uh, he adopts usas his son.
And it says he makes usrighteous.
I think that probably meanssomething like he's in the
process of it.
And we're going to be perfectlyrighteous in eternity.
But since God's outside of timeand space, right now, he sees
you, Don and me and every guylistening, he sees you five
(12:05):
years from now, 10 years fromnow.
And a trillion years from now,when he's got the whole thing
wrapped up and fixed.
And we're living in paradise andyou're the intended, excellent
version of yourself and he'sgiving you credit for that now
and he's smiling on that now,even though you yelled at your
kids last night and you haven'tdated your wife in two months
and you're mad at her for nothaving sex with you.
(12:27):
And you're, you're handling yourmoney terrible and you're not
succeeding and you're feelinginsecure or you're you're
looking at, you know, uh, pornon online and you feel crappy
about yourself, but you don'tknow that God feels good about
you.
He's already solved all thatstuff.
He's already forgiven all thatstuff.
He just wants you to receive it.
We haven't received it, muchless received our identity to
(12:49):
get started.
So that's how Jesus did it.
Um, a part of this, the mostpractical part is start every
single day and say, Because ofJesus, God, I'm your adopted
son.
Wow.
Don Ross (13:04):
Yeah.
Jeff Kemp (13:04):
Thank you.
Help me live today as your son,and you'd be in charge the way
you said that you'd lead Jesus.
And he said, I want you incharge of me, Father, and I
can't do anything apart fromyou.
Start your days like that beforethe phone, before the news,
before the feed, uh, before yougo to the gym and work out and
(13:27):
look at the girl's bodies.
Don Ross (13:28):
Right.
Jeff Kemp (13:30):
Um, if you do God first, he'll be running through
your thinking as your father allduring the day.
And when temptations come, it'slike, Hey Lord, you made a
great, a great woman there.
Uh, I pray blessings upon herand thank you for my wife.
I want my wife to be my focus.
That's what God's, God'sguidance will guide you there.
(13:50):
You're trying to make afinancial decision and you don't
just think, Hey, what's going tomake me the most money?
You think.
God, what's the soundest, wisestthing from the motive of love
that makes my wife feel secure?
That,
Don Ross (14:04):
Yeah.
Gosh, man.
Uh, yeah.
Jeff Kemp (14:07):
that all flows from abiding in Jesus, which is John
15, 5, that's his coaching.
And Jesus abided in the Father.
And I think it really helps tomake sure that you remember
you're living as a son today,but you got to start your day
that way.
And now that also, you know,begs the question you started
(14:27):
with, how do we actually getstarted receiving this identity
as the father sons?
And I can say, you could justpray and say, God, right now,
help me receive it.
And then I want to be refatheredby you.
I want to be refathered.
I'll keep going on that, but letme stop for a second so that I
(14:48):
catch my breath and you candirectly or amplify this if
Don Ross (14:51):
that's great, man.
Yeah.
No, God, there's, there's somuch, uh, just good stuff there,
uh, that you said that I thinkrings true for me.
I think a couple things, uh,that you highlighted, it's just
the necessity of kind ofreciting the truth to ourselves.
You know, I think as men, themessages of the world around us
are so strong and so loud.
(15:13):
And it's sometimes really,really hard to hear the fact
that God sees us differentlythan the world does.
And if we don't take time, and Ilove even how you said it, like
at the beginning of your day,before the phone in particular,
right?
I mean, how many men, uh, andit's gotta be most, if not all
of us begin our day, you know,by having the phone alarm go off
(15:33):
and we reach for the phone andstart scrolling immediately, you
know,
Jeff Kemp (15:37):
that that I mean that the smartphone is making us dumb
dudes,
Don Ross (15:42):
absolutely.
Uh, but just recognizing that,like, we need something before
that we need truth into ourheart, you know, before, uh, we
give the world a chance to kindof dictate our day.
And so I love that just recitingthe truth.
Who am I?
I'm a son, you know, let mejust, if I can begin with
nothing else, let me begin withthat.
I'm a son and I'm loved and justrecognizing that identity, I
(16:03):
think, you know, can, can make aradical impact on our day, but I
also love how you just talkedabout the fact that like.
It's also got to includelistening.
Like we've got to just taketime.
If like, if we want to hear, ifwe want to receive something
from God, we actually have totake time to listen to what he
has to say.
You know, we gotta, we gottaactually tune into his voice so
that we can receive it from him.
And Jesus was a master of that.
(16:24):
Uh, and I think we oftenoverlook that for just kind of
paying attention to the, theactions that we see him doing.
Um, and kind of missing thepoint of like how often he
pulled away from all theactivity to be able to just
listen.
So, yeah, so many good thingsthere, man.
Jeff Kemp (16:39):
I think what you said.
I want that.
I want to affirm is you said thepower of what we do.
tell ourselves will shape ourlife, but we don't even spend
much time thinking about whatwe're
Don Ross (16:51):
right.
Jeff Kemp (16:52):
So in this podcast, we're reminding guys, dudes, you
have the power to talk toyourself and that will highly,
highly, highly influence howeach day and each week and each
year of your life goes.
And I know I heard somewhere,um, Tozer or someone said the
most important two things aboutyou are what comes in your mind
(17:13):
when you think of God and whatcomes in your mind when you
think of yourself.
Don Ross (17:18):
Mm hmm.
Jeff Kemp (17:19):
Basically, your, how accurate is your image of God
and how accurate is your imageof yourself, your identity.
You got to get those twostraight and you can't get the
one on you straight if you don'tget the one on God straight,
because you were made by God.
What a lot of us didn't have adad, so Heavenly Father doesn't
feel great.
Or we had a negative dad, so itdoesn't feel great.
(17:41):
We need to go back and read Luke15 where Jesus talks about the
prodigal son and the Judgmental,you know, uh, earned it himself,
ungraceful, bitter, olderbrother.
They both had the same dad.
That's the way Jesus painted thepicture of a father.
Uh, he stood on the porch anddidn't chase his son into the
(18:01):
slop of the bars and prostitutesand stuff, but he prayed and he
looked and when the son cameback, he didn't say one word
about the dumb stuff he did.
He embraced him and threw aparty said, you were gone.
Now you're back.
Let's move forward in grace.
Older brother, everything I'vealways had is yours.
(18:21):
Please, come on, get into theparty.
Let's celebrate.
That's the, that's the type offather we have.
He is the perfect father.
If you think of the perfectgrandpa and the perfect football
coach who's the most encouragingguy ever who calls you to a
higher standard but heencourages you after you play a
poor game because he knows thatyou're going to be better next
(18:42):
game.
And the grandpa who's up in thestands, who's just proud of you,
that you're even on the field,put those two together and then
start studying the Bible andsay, father, God, what are you
like?
And if you realize that he gaveup his son for us, you'll
realize he is outrageouslyamazing.
(19:02):
So start there and then ask God,show me.
What you think of me show meeverything about my adoption
read all the passages in theBible about adoption and being a
child of God and a son of Godand what happened for me was I
knew this stuff theologicallyand I had a very Encouraging dad
so I didn't think I had anyfather wound or need for quote
(19:25):
Refathering, but my friend EdMcGlasson who played in the NFL
and became a pastor and a greatevangelist and speaker I heard
him Oh, I know.
Doesn't he hear me?
He told me one day his lifeturned around at age 40 when he
asked God to refather himbecause he had a Navy dad that
was a real motivating dad thatdrove him like crazy to get into
(19:48):
college and get into the pros.
But he took that same attitudeinto pastoring and ministry and
marriage, and it wasn't workingwith his wife's wife with his
wife.
Don Ross (19:57):
Yeah.
Jeff Kemp (20:00):
their hearts.
And he, he asked God to refather him and said, I'm going
to read the whole Bible and say,God, show me what you want me to
know about you as my dad and meas your son and how to live with
you as your son every day.
So when he told me that I didthat in 2020.
Right when I was reading thoseJesus passages in Matthew, Mark,
Luke, and John.
(20:21):
And I also read a good book, uh,Father God, Daring to Draw Near.
Uh, Father God, Daring to DrawNear.
by Dave Patti.
If guys get in touch with me,I'll give them a bunch of these
resources and ideas that I talkabout.
Uh, including Ed, Ed, Ed, EdMcGlasson's ministry, which is
all about fathering.
Um, and I asked God to re fatherme in 2020.
(20:42):
And the Bible came alive, Don.
I quit reading it as a Christianor as a men's speaker, looking
for something that, you know, isgoing to be real helpful.
And I started reading it as ason listening to my Abba Father.
Don Ross (20:54):
Yeah.
There you go.
Jeff Kemp (20:56):
And that leads to what you said earlier.
We actually can listen to Godall day long.
We can listen to Abba Father allday long.
The Holy Spirit, if we'll besilent a little bit.
If we'll occasionally get alone,if we'll expect to hear from
Him, if we'll read the Bible,not so I can have ten minutes
and then check it off a list, tohear from our Father.
(21:20):
Listen to the sermon at church.
Don't critique it.
God's going to say something toyou, and even if it sucks, He
can speak to you througheverything.
Your wife.
Start listening to God throughyour wife, imperfect as she is.
That is the way to be refatheredand to live as a son, and I'll
shut up for a moment while youcan say something, but I got
(21:42):
another funny story, though,about living as a son.
Don Ross (21:45):
Yeah.
No, man, all of that is great.
I, you know, I think as I talkwith men, I think the, the
thread that I hear over and overagain, when it comes to men and
the way that, uh, they relate toGod is that more often than not,
they just, they just probably,if they're honest, they feel
like God is disappointed withthem.
You know, it's
Jeff Kemp (22:02):
Frowning.
He's frowning.
He's frowning at him.
He's got his arms crossed.
Don Ross (22:05):
You know, like either they're screwing up too much,
you know, making too many badchoices or they're just not
doing enough, you know, or somecombination of both.
Um, but it's just this burdenthat men live under of, uh, of
not being enough.
And so I love how you'redescribing that picture of just
being able to say, no, like, Godcould not be more delighted with
(22:27):
you as his son, you know, likehe could not be more happy that
you are his son and his love foryou is boundless and being able
to rest in that changes thegame.
Right.
I mean, it changes everything.
Um, and, and I, and I hear whatyou're saying.
I love, you said it kind of atthe beginning about like,
Wouldn't it be awesome if we hadlike a, you know, like a
quarterback helmet with the, youknow, the speaker in it, where
(22:49):
we could just kind of like dialinto God.
But I think the point of whatyou're saying about listening is
like, we actually do have thatit's, you know, it's called our
heart, like the Holy Spirittakes up residence in our heart.
And we actually can tune in andlisten to the voice of God.
All throughout the day now,yeah, there's things that can
cause interference and that, andwe can get it wrong.
And, you know, there are somethings that we have to practice
(23:09):
there and learn how to be ableto do well, but we do have far
more access to God and to hispersonal voice to us than I
think most men realize or wantto take advantage of.
So I love how you'rehighlighting that, but yeah,
tell your, uh, tell your story.
I would love to hear it.
Jeff Kemp (23:23):
Well, before I tell the story, listening to him in
the metaphorical helmet justhappened because while I was
doing this podcast, you got toknow my personality.
I'm an ideator, I'm a visionary,I love to impart vision, I'm way
over the top, I'm ADD, I cantalk too much, um, but I'm
praying, and I prayed with youbefore this started, that Abba
(23:46):
Father would speak to us andguide us.
As I went kind of long on one ortwo answers, I kind of heard him
saying, Don't just be the onewho's interviewed and expect Don
to ask you another question andgive him some more stuff.
Why don't you stop Jeff and seewhat Don has to say.
And you didn't ask a questionright now.
You kind of synthesized andbrought a new angle and helped
(24:08):
guys a whole bunch.
And I was listening, liking whatI was hearing from you.
You were like, so, but that wasGod's voice that told me, Jeff,
stop being so Jeffy.
You know, you'll, you'll get tobe you.
I like you, but there, you know,let's hear a little bit of Don.
I want to work through him toohere and my sons.
I've had two sons who've had todo job interviews lately, a
career transition stuff, and,uh, you know, my encouragement
(24:31):
to them in a very gentle way,uh, making sure that I'm not
bossing or mentoring becausethey want to be their own man.
I was dude.
God's got this.
Just listen to him.
Father.
God is going to speak to you allthrough that interview.
That's what you can take intoany tense situation, any
(24:52):
conflict with your wife, anyreally important business
meeting.
You can be listening to him inyour heart.
Okay.
Now here's the story.
It's kind of funny, but, uh, forthe last four years, I've been
waking up in the first two orthree minutes before phone or
anything, anything else, whetherI can have a nice long, quiet
time, or just have to jump inthe car and get on a plane or
(25:13):
fly to some city, I'll sit in achair or maybe on the back
porch.
If I have time, I'll take a walkoutside, uh, and I'll take two
or three minutes and say,Father, because of Jesus, thank
you that I get to be your son.
Thank you that you're an amazingdad.
Help me soak in that.
Help me sit in that with you.
And I have a little Shema is thename of that repeated Jewish
(25:35):
prayer that they prayed.
Uh, the Lord, the Lord our Godis one.
You shall love the Lord with allyour heart, soul, and mind.
Um, I wrote my own.
It's Father God, Lord Jesus.
Holy Spirit, Father me, lead me,and fill me.
Help me live as your Son today,depending on you.
Don Ross (25:57):
Yeah.
Fantastic, man.
It's so simple, but like,
Jeff Kemp (26:00):
I see that in the car.
I say it walking through theairport.
I say it in the chair to getstarted.
Well, Stacey and I play tennis.
It's our date.
Uh, our marriage has plenty ofdifferences that bug the heck
out of us.
But when we can date and playtennis, which we love doing
together, we do so much better.
So.
One day I woke up at the lastminute, didn't have my sitting
in the chair with ABBA father,didn't walk out of the house and
(26:22):
drive over to the tennis club asa son, I was kind of groggy,
started warming up in tennisacross from the net from her and
I'm not hitting the ball well,and I'm getting kind of
frustrated and mad.
So what do I do?
I try harder.
I'm kind of a competitiverascal.
I start smacking it harder.
It's not working.
It's not fun for her.
The ball's gone all over theplace.
She can see my attitude.
(26:43):
We're not going to have any funconversation between, you know,
games.
Uh, and all of a sudden, insteadof beating myself up, which
Satan would beat you up,sometimes church morality would
beat you up.
The culture's beating you up.
Instead of beating myself, I, Istopped and I left and it was,
uh, kind of like that old V8commercial.
(27:04):
Oh, I could have had a V8.
I thought, Oh my gosh, I'm notplaying tennis as a son.
And all of a sudden I said, God,help me get back to playing
tennis as a son.
And right then, Don, my wholebody relaxed.
All my muscles calmed down.
My spirit and attitude calmeddown.
(27:25):
I had a chuckle inside of myselfat myself.
And I had the thought, thistennis needs to be fun for her.
And all of a sudden I startedstroking the ball.
Smooth accurately right in thesweet spot of the racket.
It's going right to where shecan warm up without him.
Chase it left and right.
We had a great time, not justtennis wise, playing good tennis
(27:48):
as a son, but relationally, weended up having a date.
And I take that silly exampleinto life and say that wasn't
silly because it's your marriageand it's your competitiveness.
And those things need to beconquered by God.
You can't conquer them yourself.
But they also matter infinancial matters, temptation,
(28:09):
lust issues, um, raising yourkids.
Handling tough situations, uh,making a big decision on a
career move.
I don't want to do it.
And afterwards say, dang it.
I didn't make that decision as ason.
Don Ross (28:25):
Yeah.
Jeff Kemp (28:26):
I made it on my own.
Don Ross (28:29):
Well, and I, you know, as I think your, uh, book kind
of highlights pretty well, italso impacts the way that we,
uh, pursue friendship, right.
That, uh, that the way that menneed to pursue friendship really
has to be built on thatidentity.
So this was actually kind of a,I want to say new idea for me,
but maybe just something Ihadn't really connected the dots
on that well.
So talk to me about that.
(28:49):
Like, what is it about, why dowe need to get this identity
piece in place in order to kindof figure out the friendship
piece as men?
Jeff Kemp (28:57):
We need the identity piece in place.
To have the teamwork we need inlife, which friendship is
central to because we needcourage, courage to be honest
and real and transparent andvulnerable and consistently self
disclose what's going on in ourlife.
That's the only way we can havean objective view of ourself is
(29:20):
if horizontally.
We tell the truth about who weare, not to 600 people in some,
you know, business meeting, notto 60 people at a church
meeting, uh, not to 6, 000 onsocial media, but to one or two
or three deep, trusted,consistent friends, level five
(29:41):
friends, and we'll get to levelfive in a second.
Let me just say, Don, we are inthe most connected era in
history.
Every guy has the bigger, biggernetwork than they've ever had in
history in their phone.
And.
Most of those stay at a certainshallow level or your good
friends, maybe level threefriends.
If you think of five levels offriends, these are the ones in
(30:02):
the middle at maximum.
You can remember like 110, 120names of people that you really,
uh, are semi friends with.
You only talk about the same oldregular stuff within a certain
small container.
It's, it's kind of safe and, andit doesn't go deep.
You know, you spent the wholeday with him playing golf and
hunting and maybe skiing and youcome home and your wife says,
Hey, how was the time with Tom?
(30:23):
And great.
Yeah.
Did you have fun?
Yeah.
Was it meaningful and helpful?
Yeah, sure.
What did you talk about?
Nothing.
Don Ross (30:29):
Yeah, exactly.
Jeff Kemp (30:31):
All right, but
Don Ross (30:32):
Every guy's been there.
Jeff Kemp (30:33):
a, this is the most friendless era in history, and
there's a epidemic of lonelinessbased on this friendlessness.
And Christian men struggle withthis just as much, and you know
who struggles with it more?
Pastors, high performing author,speaker, Podcaster, notoriety
(30:55):
guys, athletes, politicians,anyone who's on a pedestal who's
got corporate leaders.
When you're a leader today,you're getting flattered, which
you love, and you're gettingaggressively critiqued, which
you hate.
So you insulate yourself and youstop having friends.
You have, you know, the hangerhonors, the bandwagon, you know,
(31:20):
uh, President Trump would remindme of this, but most any
politician and sadly, pastorsare afraid of what people in
the, you know, the, the churchwill do to them if they find out
their honest stuff, anyway, uh,76 percent of men don't have
anyone trusted that they cantalk to about anything important
in their life.
That's from research in 2021.
(31:42):
All right, now let's get to justyou and me.
Guys would like to have friends.
They remember when they're inthe military on a high school
football team or whatever, abuddy, but then you get married,
you get busy, you got your job,you're trying to, you know,
coach little league, uh, and youjust, you don't have much time
for it.
But secondly, you're worried ifyou really tell what you're
like, the other guy's going tokind of roll his eyes.
(32:04):
And lose some respect for you.
You've been burned when youshared a prayer request one time
and a guy went and shared it,someone else that turned into
gossip, uh, you're afraid offeeling less than when you tell
a guy how badly you strugglewith porn.
So all of those false fearsbased in an insecure identity.
(32:25):
That doesn't have the courage tobe honest, stop you from
building the deep friendshipthat you really need and want.
And guess what?
He needs it too, because hisproblem with porn may be even
bigger than yours.
And if he doesn't have thatproblem, he's got a drinking
problem or he's got a prideproblem.
Or he's got a marriage problem
Don Ross (32:44):
Or all of the above.
Yeah,
Jeff Kemp (32:46):
or all holy above.
He's a champion problem.
Did, uh, so you asked, how isyour identity crucial to having
deep friendships?
First of all, I don't think wereally understand deep
friendships.
Secondly, we're afraid of thetransparent vulnerability, uh,
that, that comes with being openand honest thirdly.
We don't carve out the time toconsistently be in touch with a
(33:08):
friend and you got to be intouch every week to know each
other's lives.
You can't get the wise counselthat Proverbs talks about, uh,
unless you're in someone's lifeand he's in yours and you're
processing everything everyweek.
That's where we get that wisecounsel.
So your identity gives yousecurity and God's approval and
his smile upon you, even whenyou're, you think you're a
(33:31):
schmuck and that gives you thecourage to put yourself out
there and be real with the otherguy, because you already know,
God thinks well of me and hisopinion matters the most.
Don Ross (33:39):
that's right.
Yeah.
Jeff Kemp (33:40):
Alright, so that is, I think, one of the most crucial
things of why receiving youridentity and letting God re
father you and then soaking itevery day for two or three
minutes to start and thencarrying it with you, wait a
minute, I'm a son of the Father,I'm not just, you know,
Christian dude number 296 beingmeasured against 297 all the
(34:03):
other guys.
Don Ross (34:04):
right.
Yeah, Yeah.
I, man, I love all of that.
I love what you said.
Uh, even just when you kind ofstarted, you were saying, you
know, that, that identity pieceis necessary for courage.
And I think that's so right onthe money.
You know, if, if I can, if I canrest in the fact that I am a son
and that God's love for me iscompletely.
Unchanging than it does.
(34:25):
It gives me the courage to beable to actually be honest about
what's really going on in mylife, because I know that even
if I share all that withsomebody else and it goes south,
right.
And that's what we fear.
Um, and that could happen.
Like it's happened to many ofus.
Um, but even if it does, Myidentity still doesn't change.
(34:46):
I'm still completely loved.
I don't, you know, overnightbecome a train wreck or a
complete disappointment or anutter failure.
You're like, none of thathappens.
I like, I have the courage andthe identity to be able to hear
it at manhood tribes, we callthat getting naked.
I have the courage to be ableto.
You know, like take the guarddown to expose myself, to really
be honest about what is actuallytrue and going on in my life
(35:08):
with another man, because that'sthe only way to, uh, freedom and
wholeness and health, and that'swhat we're trying to pursue, but
getting there, you know, takesmore than, uh, most of us are
willing to do.
And I think that's where you'reright on the money, you know,
just saying that we need thatidentity piece.
But I want to ask you about.
want you have kind of teased acouple times now about these
like five levels of friendship.
(35:28):
And so that's where I kind ofwant to go next is just to have
you, you know, you kind ofmentioned the fifth level is
maybe the deepest or theclosest, but like talk to us
about what those are.
I don't think guys tend to thinkof friendship in levels.
So like what's your, you know,kind of analogy for that.
And, and what are thosedifferent levels sort of look
like for men?
Jeff Kemp (35:46):
okay, well, I'm not trying to help guys, you know,
have Lots of level three, normalfriends.
That's that's taken for granted.
So let's talk about level fourand five and think of a pyramid.
Uh, it's very much like PatLansani's five dysfunctions of
the team, top of the pyramid.
I got the idea from Jim Collinsin good to great, who talked
about five levels of leaders,the rare breed at the top who
(36:10):
changed the culture and buildamazing companies and go from
good to great, they're, they'rethe most humble leaders.
And they're doggedly focused onthe purpose.
Those two traits do apply to thelevel five friendship.
Um, I'll give you more of thembecause Jesus is the model for
(36:32):
level five friendship, levelfour friends.
And a lot of guys don't havesomeone like this that you can
call at 2 AM and say, mymarriage is in a crisis.
My son just got arrested.
I just got arrested.
Uh, I just got caught.
With this, you know, uh, affairor whatever, or I'm in
depression and I haven't toldanyone, my brain won't even
(36:55):
work.
I'm starting to go numb.
Do you have a four, a 2 a.
m.
friend that you trust enoughthat you can be real with?
And I think every one of us.
Need that and want that and yougot to check in with that guy
and you got to maybe share lifestories a little bit Have some
experiences together Ask ifhe'll be confidential and tell
(37:17):
him you'll be confidential withyour stuff Can't will you be
there if I need you and viceversa?
And if you have some old friendslike that, you haven't talked to
him because you moved away fromthem nurture those old
friendships You can't make oldfriends again.
You can't make an old friend.
They have to exist already.
Don Ross (37:34):
Yeah.
Okay.
This is, this is so greatbecause what you're describing
as a level four friend is atleast in my experience of
working with men is what I thinkmost men think of as a really
close friend, right?
That's, I think that's what, ifI ask a guy like who are his
close friends, the guys thatcome to mind in his head are the
guys that he would say he couldcall in a crisis, right?
(37:54):
The guy that he could call, uh,when, when, you know, the poo is
hitting the fan.
Um, but for most guys.
Uh, they haven't spoken to the,that guy, you know, to the 2 a.
m.
friend since high school orcollege.
And that may be for, you know,decades for many men, you know,
it's like, yeah, I'm pretty sureI could like pick back up where
we left off, but I haven'ttalked to him in a long time,
but if I really needed him, Ibet he would be there for me,
(38:17):
but you're saying that's justlike a level four friend and
there's actually somethingdeeper or better than that.
So like, tell us what, like,what's the difference, what's
the
Jeff Kemp (38:24):
Yeah, I think your point is a level forefront is a
close friend that you have sometrust and confidence in.
And, you know, you said it mighthave been 10 years.
I'm going to say it might havebeen 3 months ago.
You haven't talked since then.
That still means.
He's not there to help youduring those three months and
you're not there to help him.
Um, you're drifting off course.
(38:44):
Level five is close, but it'sconsistent and deep, consistent
and deep.
So I'm going to, I'm going tolay out a number of words here.
First of all, it's intentional.
You decide I want and need, andso does my, my buddy or two
other buddies, this type offriendship, intentional,
(39:05):
committed.
It's consistent in the sensethat you set a schedule that
we're going to talk about eachweek.
Some guys text you three times aweek about the important stuff.
Some guys have a callautomatically, but most guys
have to schedule a call, a zoomor meeting up with each other.
All right.
This is not a small group.
(39:25):
This is not something you joinand unjoin.
This isn't a noun.
This is a verb.
This is doing friendship.
So intentional, committed,consistent, it's scheduled.
And then you explain, what doyou want out of friendship?
And he explains it to you.
And I can help you with that inthis level five friendship
playbook, about 10 pages of, ofbullet points and guidance that
(39:46):
I drew from Jesus and the Bibleand, uh, experience with
friends.
And then you build safety andtrust.
You, you build rapport bytelling each other stories,
knowing, Hey, what was your dadlike?
What was your childhood like?
What was your biggest blitz inlife?
What's been hard?
in my, In my, uh, I built acouple of really solid level
five friends, uh, over the lastcouple of years, in addition to
(40:08):
a couple that I meet withalready.
And I had this group of guysthat didn't even know each other
and I'm calling it a group, butreally our goal was to become
friends because we had anaffinity as speakers and men's
ministry dudes.
And they didn't know each other,but they knew me.
And I put a zoom together.
We told our life stories for thefirst couple of weeks.
We talked about our risk areas.
What are our temptation areas?
(40:30):
My mine is the physical, uh, uh,the, the lust of the eyes, the
visual, the curiosity, you know,women.
Um, and secondly, a quest forsignificant significance, kind
of this hidden pride that alwayswants more.
Uh, I put that on the tableearly and I also had us
metaphorically shake hands andsay, are you confidential?
Sure.
Because I am.
(40:50):
Do you have my back?
I have yours.
Once men do something likephysically shaking hands, fist
bumping, shoulder bumping, itsinks in and it means something.
So all this is kind of layingthe intentionality for how your
team of friendship is going tooperate.
And then it starts being humbleand open and self disclosing.
You're not afraid to confessyour struggles and weaknesses or
(41:11):
your great successes.
You can be real.
Um, and you pray for each other.
So that's all level five.
Once you get intentional and youknow, you're going to talk to
each other each week, the keyis, are you going to talk about
what's important and here's theway to do it.
Just ask a guy within the firstfive minutes of connecting
instead of talking about thegolf match or, you know,
(41:32):
something else.
You can do that all week long,but you got to have an
intentional time to talk aboutwhat's important.
You, you, you say God, uh, orexcuse me.
you say Hey, uh, You know, Don,what's the most important thing
that you need to talk abouttoday?
And then I ask you a secondquestion.
What's the most important thingI can pray for?
And then I urge men to say a manprayer with your friends, which
(41:55):
is short, sweet.
and inspired by what God wantsfor them more than what you can
dream up for them.
So just say something like,Lord, I pray that you bless
Don's marriage and family evenmore than his podcast.
Help him not get carried awaywith it.
Whatever's best for him,whatever's best for Don, do
that, Lord.
Amen.
Wow.
(42:16):
The dude's like, I like gettingprayed for like that.
It didn't, it wasn'tintimidating.
It wasn't long.
It didn't have fancy Holylanguage.
Uh, and then he'll ask youwhat's the most important thing.
Okay.
You can ask other questions, butthis is not an accountability
group.
You're not saying how'd you, youknow, did you cheat on your
taxes and did you hit the dog?
And what do you mean to yourwife this week?
(42:36):
Um, did you look at some wrongstuff on your phone?
Um, we should self disclose thatstuff.
That's so much better.
Don Ross (42:44):
Yeah.
And in that kind of friendship,that's the way it should happen.
Yeah,
Jeff Kemp (42:47):
accountability.
Yeah, and I will help theseguys, any of them listening,
develop that level fivefriendship.
And you need to pray, first ofall, who God needs me and who do
I need?
And then you can start checkingin with guys for the next couple
of weeks and asking those coupleof questions and offering to go
first.
(43:08):
And if a guy is warm to it andlikes it, then you might want to
get intentional and call him andsay, what if we set up a regular
call?
And maybe we could do it withone other guy.
Cause I think a, a triplefriendship team is super duper
powerful.
Um, it's just two personalities,twice twice the prayer, twice
the objective input on thethings you're going through.
(43:29):
And Don, this isn't just abouttalking about the stuff that
happened last week.
It's talking about the thingsyou're thinking of doing in the
next week to year.
That way you can process yourlife ahead of time.
And once you say it out loud toa friend, an honest friend, it
might sound a lot dumber than itdid in your head when you get it
out of your mouth.
(43:49):
Or they may ask a question.
Like my friend asked me, Hey, doyou think you have a lot of
credibility on that issue?
You want to talk to your sonabout?
And I said, not really.
I think it's going to turn outwell.
And I said, no, not really.
He said, okay.
So he, he consulted me and Icame up with my own conclusion
because our friendship is thatintegrated into the most
(44:10):
important things.
And I told a friend of mineabout this one day.
He said, geez, Jeff, you guysaren't just friends.
It's like you're partners in oneanother's life.
Yeah, we are.
We're, we're partners.
I want, I want Greg and Pete towin in marriage.
And fathering in their walk withGod in their discipleship.
And they want me to win God'sway.
(44:31):
And we're together.
Don Ross (44:33):
dude.
That's awesome.
And I think probably as guys arelistening to that, uh, there's a
lot of men out there who really,really long for that kind of
friendship.
But I want to ask you, Jeff,cause uh, as I've gone through
this series, the, the, The mostcommon comment that I've gotten
from, you know, guys who are,uh, listening in or watching the
content that I've put out therehas been, yeah, I'm 27 or I'm
(44:57):
38, or I'm, you know, 59.
I don't have a single friend.
That's been the most commoncomment.
I don't have any friends.
So I think there's a lot of guysout there who are listening to
this kind of content and aregoing, yeah, I really, really
want that.
But when I look around to try tofind like who I could pursue
that with, there's nobody,there's nobody on the radar at
(45:19):
all.
So what would you say to a guywho's in that position?
Like how and where does he evenget started?
Jeff Kemp (45:28):
I'm not criticizing that guy, but I'm diagnosing.
He's probably saying I'm lookingaround and I'm not seeing it.
I'm not feeling it.
I don't know who he's doing iton his own.
He's not doing it as a son.
Jesus wouldn't have just said,Hey, I wonder who my disciples
should be.
Jesus went up on a mountain fora whole night with his Abba
(45:50):
father, spent the whole nightwith Listening to Abba Father,
talking with him, and then hechose the 12 friends.
And the Father guided him toPeter, James, and John as his
deepest three, I guess you'd saylevel five friends, Jesus type
friends, the deepest consistentfriends.
So I'm saying to that guy,listen, buddy, you have
(46:13):
something to offer to someoneelse.
And they've got something tooffer to you.
God can do anything.
He raised Jesus from the dead.
He can find you friends, askhim, ask him, be a son and say,
father, guide me to who you wantme to become a buddy with a
level five friend.
And, uh, just show me the stepsto get the ball rolling and give
(46:34):
me the courage at the right timeto intentionality and almost
this commitment that what kindof friendship do you want?
Let's, let's talk about this.
Uh, let's, let's define it.
And then let's start putting iton the calendar and showing up
with each other weekly.
It's easy to put a call togetherfor 45 minutes a week.
You might have to move the time.
We, if you only have two otherguys you're doing it with, it's
(46:56):
easy to move it around.
If it's a small group of sevenguys, A, there's no time for
each guy to talk.
B, there's at least two guys inthe group you're not sure if you
want to share that with.
C, you're studying some bookthat fills up the hour and
there's no time to talk and praywith each other.
That's a group.
You need a friend.
You need a You need two friendsand God will guide him there.
(47:17):
If you ask him and say, God, I'myour son, guide me to this.
You want this more than I do.
So make it happen and get in a,get in a, uh, a Bible study at
church, a small group at church,go ask the mentor pastor, uh, go
to a Christian businessnetworking, marketing thing, or
(47:37):
look back at your old friends.
And decide you're going to dothis by phone or zoom and not
worry that he doesn't live inthe same city anymore.
God can skin this cat.
God can skin this cat a millionways.
If you let him be the lead as ason.
Don Ross (47:51):
Yeah.
He's a good father.
No, that's awesome.
Jeff.
Uh, gosh, this has been afantastic conversation.
And I feel like, uh, there's somany rabbit trails.
I could have gone down in thisconversation.
We're going to have to do itagain and we could spend another
couple hours, I think, talkingthrough these things, but yeah,
this is awesome, man.
So, uh, as guys are listening,if they're hearing what you're
saying, uh, I know you've got a,uh, kind of resource that you
want to help get in their hands.
(48:12):
Where can they go to kind of getsome access to your content?
Jeff Kemp (48:15):
Yeah.
I think that the singlequickest, shortest help they can
get is to get this level fivefriendship playbook.
It's a digital PDF.
They can download it.
When you go to men, huddle.
com.
My, my website is men, huddle.
com.
Um, it's also Jeff kept team.
com.
Uh, but either one of those,it'll pop up.
(48:36):
And you'll download it and thenyou can send the website to a
friend and have him look itover.
You could give it to a, youknow, a pastor at church or
another leader of men and say,Hey, what do you think of this?
Let's talk about this.
So get the men huddle playbook,uh, at my website and you'll see
There's a book there, the audiobook is, uh, uh, available, and
the normal book, it's Receivethe Way of Jesus for Men that
(48:58):
you mentioned, um, and there's aBible study, I call it Field
Guide, Daily Devotions, and thengroup questions, uh, for groups.
My church has a couple hundredguys going through it right now,
and, uh, the Refathering's inthere.
The building deep friends is inthere.
Um, operating from your identityas a son is in there and I've
(49:20):
got a weekly blog that I try tokeep it short because I have
some editors who do better thanme at keeping things short and
they help me.
And I've heard guys say this ishitting the real issues in my
life.
So you'll get that if you signup for the, um, level five
friendship playbook again, menhuddle.
com.
Don Ross (49:38):
Awesome.
Yeah.
We'll put that in the shownotes.
So guys, you can, uh, go thereand look for that link, uh, to
be able to find it and to godownload that resource.
I would encourage you to do thattoday.
And Jeff, man, uh, thanks forbeing on the show today.
This is a great conversation.
Really appreciate your time.
Jeff Kemp (49:51):
Hey, it's great, Don.
Thanks, man.
Guys want to know how you measure up as a man?
I've got a great resource foryou.
It's called how manly are you?
And it's a free quiz that youcan take to figure out how you
stack up against what it meansto be a man.
And when you take the quiz,you'll also get some free
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in the areas where you wouldlike to grow.
(00:39):
So go to manhoodtribes.com/manlyto download your free.
How manly are you quiz today?
That's manhoodtribes.com/manly.
All right, man.
Welcome to the manhood tribeshow.
My name is Don.
I'm really glad to be with youtoday.
And if you have been followingalong for the past few episodes,
(01:01):
you know that I have wrapped upa series on what it looks like
to build close friends and howto take those close friendships
and turn it into a tribe.
And so I'm really excited havingkind of finished up that series.
Now that we're going to cap itoff with a great interview with
Jeff Kemp.
Jeff is a former NFL quarter.
Quarterback.
And a former VP at family life,a ministry of campus crusade for
(01:25):
Christ, two marriages andfamilies.
And Jeff is now a speaker andauthor and has written a book
called receive the way of Jesusfor men.
This book is really all aboutkind of the crisis of male
friendship in our culture rightnow, and what men can do to
develop close friends.
So you can obviously see it'sgoing to relate a lot to what
(01:46):
we've talked about in thisseries.
And Jeff is just full of wisdom.
I think you're going to learn aton from him.
So I want to go ahead and jumpinto our interview today with
Jeff Kemp.
I hope you enjoy.
All right, Jeff Kemp.
Hey, welcome to the manhoodtribe show.
Really glad to have you today.
Jeff Kemp (02:04):
Hey, thanks, Tom.
Good to be with you, man.
Don Ross (02:06):
Yeah, absolutely.
So, I'm, I'm really excited tobe able to talk with you, about
just the whole topic offriendship.
I've just kind of wrapped up aseries on men and friendship and
just know what it, like a big,significant topic.
This is at the moment in ourculture and in our world.
And you've written a book.
What's it called?
called receive the way of Jesusfor men, that really does a lot
(02:27):
about men and friendship, butI'm, I'm kind of curious, you
know, just the way that bookpublishing and book reading in
particular for men goes thesedays.
Like, you know, why write a bookand why write this book in
particular for men right now?
Jeff Kemp (02:41):
I've been speaking to men and men's conferences, men's
retreats, uh, coaching leaders,hanging out with guys, coaching
football teams for my wholelife.
And I've done a lot of ministryto marriages, but honestly, if
you really want to make a bigdifference, you got to get to
the husband like directly andtalk, man, talk to him.
Um, So being that that's myfield and there was a bunch of
(03:05):
messages in me and I kind ofwanted to organize them.
I wanted to write a book formen.
Um, and I was going to call itreal good man.
Like be be real, be authentic.
Don't fake it.
You know, just be who you are.
Um, and secondly, be benevolent.
Make a difference for others.
Use your strength for someoneelse's benefit.
That's good.
Be good.
So real and good.
(03:25):
And, uh, when COVID hit, um, allmy speaking shut down, all my
travel, my wife said, Hey, thisis good.
You've been gone too much.
This is an opportunity also to,you know, not just hang out with
me because I'm lonely, but thisis a good chance to write that
book you were supposed to bewriting.
So I pour, I poured into, uh,Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John,
and I underlined and highlightedevery single place where Jesus.
(03:48):
As kind of the quintessentialrole model man, uh, was spoken
of or acted, uh, what he said.
And I discovered a bunch of coolstuff about what he did.
I mean, he was radically humble,outrageously courageous,
dignified women, uh, trained hisguys.
Um, he was so purposeful.
(04:10):
You know, um, he was not afraidof blitzes and shifting gears
and changing, you know, um, butthe thing that blew me away
wasn't the what of Jesus'smanhood, it was the how, it was
the way he did it.
And the gist of it was thatJesus didn't perform his
manhood.
(04:31):
He didn't earn his identity.
He received all of it.
And in John, it has a bunch ofpassages where he says, my
father's always at work and soam I, I do whatever he says.
He says, whatever my fatherspeaks, I speak, whatever he
tells me to do.
I do.
Then he says, I, the son can donothing apart from my father.
(04:51):
And I was like, Whoa, drop themic, slow down, listen to that.
If Jesus, this, I can doeverything, walk in the water,
raised from the dead, you know,God in human manhood form said,
I can do nothing apart from thefather in that case, I think it
was because he was a so humble.
B so connected to his father andC chose to be dependent on him.
(05:16):
It was almost like he had ahelmet on like quarterbacks in
the NFL today, listening to whatthe coaches are saying in that
little speaker, getting his playreal time from his father.
And so I changed the whole titleof the book to receive because I
think there's too much pressureon men to think, I got to figure
out my identity as a goodChristian husband, dad, you
(05:38):
know, leader, a humble guy, uh,do the right stuff with money,
don't mess around with porn.
And pretty soon you fail
Don Ross (05:47):
Right.
Jeff Kemp (05:48):
and then you feel a third and a fourth.
Don Ross (05:50):
to succeed at.
Jeff Kemp (05:51):
Yeah.
you fail a fourth, a fifth and a55th time.
At that point, you're kind ofafraid to tell your friend about
it.
And you're wondering if Godreally forgives you.
And then Satan comes in andsays, you didn't just do bad.
You are bad.
You know, God, God says, Hey,you did bad.
Tell me you're sorry.
And I'll forgive you.
But Satan says, you're bad andyou're hopeless.
(06:12):
And that shame message is runthrough a lot of guys heads,
even from their childhood, whentheir dad said, you'll never
amount to anything, you know,I'm leaving your mom and the
family for a new wife, whichmakes the kid feel like.
You know, I'm not valued.
I'm not important.
Don Ross (06:27):
Yeah.
Jeff Kemp (06:27):
Um, So anyway, I changed the title to Receive.
That's the way Jesus lived.
He received it all from theFather, and it frees us men from
the performance model ofidentity earning, the
performance model of manhood,the performance version of
Christianity.
Don Ross (06:48):
Yeah.
Jeff Kemp (06:49):
And honestly, that's really been the problem all
through history.
We get a little bit of God, andthen we try to do it ourself.
Don Ross (06:56):
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The God helps those who helpthemselves, you know, kind of
mentality.
Jeff Kemp (07:01):
What verse is that?
Don Ross (07:02):
Yeah, exactly.
Uh, it's not one.
If for those of you who arelistening, who maybe aren't sure
about that, that is not a verse,but yeah.
Uh, okay.
This is great, man.
I'm, I love where you're gettingat and, and kind of the
direction that you're headed in.
And so this is, this is what Iwant to ask is just, yeah, I
think what you're describing,you know, kind of men getting
their sense of identity fromtheir work or, you know, the
(07:26):
woman or the women in theirlives, you know, any kind of,
you know, our financial success,you know, name what you want to
like, I think men understandthat almost intuitively because
it's, you know, it's the oceanthat we all swim in.
But when you're talking aboutreceiving a sense of identity,
uh, from God, like I think mostof us don't even have a clue,
That's not a category that evenmakes sense.
(07:47):
So like, can you walk us throughthat a little bit?
Like what, what does that, whatdoes that even look like?
How do we receive a sense ofidentity from God?
Jeff Kemp (07:54):
That's, that's a really helpful and key question
that we oftentimes don't ask,but I'll just start with how
Jesus received his identity fromhis father.
Um, the premise is you receiveyour identity from the one who
created you.
Not manufacture it yourself.
Don Ross (08:11):
Right.
Sure.
Jeff Kemp (08:13):
So therefore identity is relational, not achievement
oriented.
Don Ross (08:19):
Hmm.
Yeah.
Jeff Kemp (08:21):
Okay.
I achieved NFL backupquarterback who got to start as
a quarterback for two and a halfyears.
Was I a starter and then not astarter?
Was I a backup?
And then not even an NFLquarterback.
When I got cut, did I lose myidentity when I no longer was a
(08:42):
quarterback?
Uh, did my identity inflate whenI was doing great and they were
cheering and did it deflate whenI was released from the NFL and
didn't have that job and statusanymore?
Uh, the true answer is no, but.
Man, you know how much we go inthe tank when stuff goes wrong
at work or with our wife or youknow, we're not impressive, our
(09:04):
pickup trucks doesn't have asmany bells and whistles and
isn't brand new like the otherguy that has three of them and a
boat being pulled behind his.
Um, so identity is received andJesus received it relationally.
So do we.
So it starts with, take a look,um, at Jesus in the river being
baptized by John.
(09:28):
comes down in a dove and hisvoice thunders from heaven and
says, this is my son.
So there's his identity.
My beloved son, he'sunconditionally loved.
That is his security.
And then he says, I take delightand pleasure in him.
That's his approval, whichevery, every boy wants his dad
(09:51):
to pat him on the back and says,son, you got what it takes.
I believe in you.
You're, you're a man, uh, youknow, join the company of men.
You're going to do great things.
Uh, I know your third string.
Don't worry about it.
Someday you'll be a starter.
I know.
You don't seem like you have alot of friends, but you're the
friendliest little kid I know,and that's going to be a great
trade as a man.
My dad was that kind of guy tome, but not in a perfect way,
(10:13):
the way Abba Father was toJesus.
And then Jesus again got hisidentity bestowed upon him.
at the Mount of Transfigurationwhen he took his three best
friends, and we'll get to thatin a minute, the type of
friendship Jesus wants for us,Peter, James, and John.
So he's up on the mountain, andthe Father again speaks about
him and says, This is my son,identity, my beloved son,
(10:35):
unconditionally loved andsecure, in whom I take delight
and pleasure, total approval.
And then he says this, He is thechosen one.
Listen to him.
That's his place in this world.
That's his purpose.
That's his mission.
That's his calling.
Every man is made to achieve.
To conquer, to overcome, to makethings better, to protect, to
(10:58):
use his strength to make lifebetter for the vulnerable or the
weak, or just anyone.
And so God gives Jesus all fourof those gifts, and He received
them from His Father.
Well, in 21, it says that Godmade Jesus, who knew He was
perfect, and lived the perfectlife with all the temptations,
(11:20):
but never sinned, to be thepunishment for sin, for Don and
Jeff and all the other dudesthat mess up all the time.
including trying to do it ontheir own, which is part of the
messing up, uh, for those who dosin so that we could be made the
righteousness of God.
He gives us credit for Jesus'srighteousness.
So it's like our bank accountall of a sudden has a trillion
dollars of righteousness that wecan go to God and say, Hey, I
(11:44):
belong with you.
And secondly, uh, he adopts usas his son.
And it says he makes usrighteous.
I think that probably meanssomething like he's in the
process of it.
And we're going to be perfectlyrighteous in eternity.
But since God's outside of timeand space, right now, he sees
you, Don and me and every guylistening, he sees you five
(12:05):
years from now, 10 years fromnow.
And a trillion years from now,when he's got the whole thing
wrapped up and fixed.
And we're living in paradise andyou're the intended, excellent
version of yourself and he'sgiving you credit for that now
and he's smiling on that now,even though you yelled at your
kids last night and you haven'tdated your wife in two months
and you're mad at her for nothaving sex with you.
(12:27):
And you're, you're handling yourmoney terrible and you're not
succeeding and you're feelinginsecure or you're you're
looking at, you know, uh, pornon online and you feel crappy
about yourself, but you don'tknow that God feels good about
you.
He's already solved all thatstuff.
He's already forgiven all thatstuff.
He just wants you to receive it.
We haven't received it, muchless received our identity to
(12:49):
get started.
So that's how Jesus did it.
Um, a part of this, the mostpractical part is start every
single day and say, Because ofJesus, God, I'm your adopted
son.
Wow.
Don Ross (13:04):
Yeah.
Jeff Kemp (13:04):
Thank you.
Help me live today as your son,and you'd be in charge the way
you said that you'd lead Jesus.
And he said, I want you incharge of me, Father, and I
can't do anything apart fromyou.
Start your days like that beforethe phone, before the news,
before the feed, uh, before yougo to the gym and work out and
(13:27):
look at the girl's bodies.
Don Ross (13:28):
Right.
Jeff Kemp (13:30):
Um, if you do God first, he'll be running through
your thinking as your father allduring the day.
And when temptations come, it'slike, Hey Lord, you made a
great, a great woman there.
Uh, I pray blessings upon herand thank you for my wife.
I want my wife to be my focus.
That's what God's, God'sguidance will guide you there.
(13:50):
You're trying to make afinancial decision and you don't
just think, Hey, what's going tomake me the most money?
You think.
God, what's the soundest, wisestthing from the motive of love
that makes my wife feel secure?
That,
Don Ross (14:04):
Yeah.
Gosh, man.
Uh, yeah.
Jeff Kemp (14:07):
that all flows from abiding in Jesus, which is John
15, 5, that's his coaching.
And Jesus abided in the Father.
And I think it really helps tomake sure that you remember
you're living as a son today,but you got to start your day
that way.
And now that also, you know,begs the question you started
(14:27):
with, how do we actually getstarted receiving this identity
as the father sons?
And I can say, you could justpray and say, God, right now,
help me receive it.
And then I want to be refatheredby you.
I want to be refathered.
I'll keep going on that, but letme stop for a second so that I
(14:48):
catch my breath and you candirectly or amplify this if
Don Ross (14:51):
that's great, man.
Yeah.
No, God, there's, there's somuch, uh, just good stuff there,
uh, that you said that I thinkrings true for me.
I think a couple things, uh,that you highlighted, it's just
the necessity of kind ofreciting the truth to ourselves.
You know, I think as men, themessages of the world around us
are so strong and so loud.
(15:13):
And it's sometimes really,really hard to hear the fact
that God sees us differentlythan the world does.
And if we don't take time, and Ilove even how you said it, like
at the beginning of your day,before the phone in particular,
right?
I mean, how many men, uh, andit's gotta be most, if not all
of us begin our day, you know,by having the phone alarm go off
(15:33):
and we reach for the phone andstart scrolling immediately, you
know,
Jeff Kemp (15:37):
that that I mean that the smartphone is making us dumb
dudes,
Don Ross (15:42):
absolutely.
Uh, but just recognizing that,like, we need something before
that we need truth into ourheart, you know, before, uh, we
give the world a chance to kindof dictate our day.
And so I love that just recitingthe truth.
Who am I?
I'm a son, you know, let mejust, if I can begin with
nothing else, let me begin withthat.
I'm a son and I'm loved and justrecognizing that identity, I
(16:03):
think, you know, can, can make aradical impact on our day, but I
also love how you just talkedabout the fact that like.
It's also got to includelistening.
Like we've got to just taketime.
If like, if we want to hear, ifwe want to receive something
from God, we actually have totake time to listen to what he
has to say.
You know, we gotta, we gottaactually tune into his voice so
that we can receive it from him.
And Jesus was a master of that.
(16:24):
Uh, and I think we oftenoverlook that for just kind of
paying attention to the, theactions that we see him doing.
Um, and kind of missing thepoint of like how often he
pulled away from all theactivity to be able to just
listen.
So, yeah, so many good thingsthere, man.
Jeff Kemp (16:39):
I think what you said.
I want that.
I want to affirm is you said thepower of what we do.
tell ourselves will shape ourlife, but we don't even spend
much time thinking about whatwe're
Don Ross (16:51):
right.
Jeff Kemp (16:52):
So in this podcast, we're reminding guys, dudes, you
have the power to talk toyourself and that will highly,
highly, highly influence howeach day and each week and each
year of your life goes.
And I know I heard somewhere,um, Tozer or someone said the
most important two things aboutyou are what comes in your mind
(17:13):
when you think of God and whatcomes in your mind when you
think of yourself.
Don Ross (17:18):
Mm hmm.
Jeff Kemp (17:19):
Basically, your, how accurate is your image of God
and how accurate is your imageof yourself, your identity.
You got to get those twostraight and you can't get the
one on you straight if you don'tget the one on God straight,
because you were made by God.
What a lot of us didn't have adad, so Heavenly Father doesn't
feel great.
Or we had a negative dad, so itdoesn't feel great.
(17:41):
We need to go back and read Luke15 where Jesus talks about the
prodigal son and the Judgmental,you know, uh, earned it himself,
ungraceful, bitter, olderbrother.
They both had the same dad.
That's the way Jesus painted thepicture of a father.
Uh, he stood on the porch anddidn't chase his son into the
(18:01):
slop of the bars and prostitutesand stuff, but he prayed and he
looked and when the son cameback, he didn't say one word
about the dumb stuff he did.
He embraced him and threw aparty said, you were gone.
Now you're back.
Let's move forward in grace.
Older brother, everything I'vealways had is yours.
(18:21):
Please, come on, get into theparty.
Let's celebrate.
That's the, that's the type offather we have.
He is the perfect father.
If you think of the perfectgrandpa and the perfect football
coach who's the most encouragingguy ever who calls you to a
higher standard but heencourages you after you play a
poor game because he knows thatyou're going to be better next
(18:42):
game.
And the grandpa who's up in thestands, who's just proud of you,
that you're even on the field,put those two together and then
start studying the Bible andsay, father, God, what are you
like?
And if you realize that he gaveup his son for us, you'll
realize he is outrageouslyamazing.
(19:02):
So start there and then ask God,show me.
What you think of me show meeverything about my adoption
read all the passages in theBible about adoption and being a
child of God and a son of Godand what happened for me was I
knew this stuff theologicallyand I had a very Encouraging dad
so I didn't think I had anyfather wound or need for quote
(19:25):
Refathering, but my friend EdMcGlasson who played in the NFL
and became a pastor and a greatevangelist and speaker I heard
him Oh, I know.
Doesn't he hear me?
He told me one day his lifeturned around at age 40 when he
asked God to refather himbecause he had a Navy dad that
was a real motivating dad thatdrove him like crazy to get into
(19:48):
college and get into the pros.
But he took that same attitudeinto pastoring and ministry and
marriage, and it wasn't workingwith his wife's wife with his
wife.
Don Ross (19:57):
Yeah.
Jeff Kemp (20:00):
their hearts.
And he, he asked God to refather him and said, I'm going
to read the whole Bible and say,God, show me what you want me to
know about you as my dad and meas your son and how to live with
you as your son every day.
So when he told me that I didthat in 2020.
Right when I was reading thoseJesus passages in Matthew, Mark,
Luke, and John.
(20:21):
And I also read a good book, uh,Father God, Daring to Draw Near.
Uh, Father God, Daring to DrawNear.
by Dave Patti.
If guys get in touch with me,I'll give them a bunch of these
resources and ideas that I talkabout.
Uh, including Ed, Ed, Ed, EdMcGlasson's ministry, which is
all about fathering.
Um, and I asked God to re fatherme in 2020.
(20:42):
And the Bible came alive, Don.
I quit reading it as a Christianor as a men's speaker, looking
for something that, you know, isgoing to be real helpful.
And I started reading it as ason listening to my Abba Father.
Don Ross (20:54):
Yeah.
There you go.
Jeff Kemp (20:56):
And that leads to what you said earlier.
We actually can listen to Godall day long.
We can listen to Abba Father allday long.
The Holy Spirit, if we'll besilent a little bit.
If we'll occasionally get alone,if we'll expect to hear from
Him, if we'll read the Bible,not so I can have ten minutes
and then check it off a list, tohear from our Father.
(21:20):
Listen to the sermon at church.
Don't critique it.
God's going to say something toyou, and even if it sucks, He
can speak to you througheverything.
Your wife.
Start listening to God throughyour wife, imperfect as she is.
That is the way to be refatheredand to live as a son, and I'll
shut up for a moment while youcan say something, but I got
(21:42):
another funny story, though,about living as a son.
Don Ross (21:45):
Yeah.
No, man, all of that is great.
I, you know, I think as I talkwith men, I think the, the
thread that I hear over and overagain, when it comes to men and
the way that, uh, they relate toGod is that more often than not,
they just, they just probably,if they're honest, they feel
like God is disappointed withthem.
You know, it's
Jeff Kemp (22:02):
Frowning.
He's frowning.
He's frowning at him.
He's got his arms crossed.
Don Ross (22:05):
You know, like either they're screwing up too much,
you know, making too many badchoices or they're just not
doing enough, you know, or somecombination of both.
Um, but it's just this burdenthat men live under of, uh, of
not being enough.
And so I love how you'redescribing that picture of just
being able to say, no, like, Godcould not be more delighted with
(22:27):
you as his son, you know, likehe could not be more happy that
you are his son and his love foryou is boundless and being able
to rest in that changes thegame.
Right.
I mean, it changes everything.
Um, and, and I, and I hear whatyou're saying.
I love, you said it kind of atthe beginning about like,
Wouldn't it be awesome if we hadlike a, you know, like a
quarterback helmet with the, youknow, the speaker in it, where
(22:49):
we could just kind of like dialinto God.
But I think the point of whatyou're saying about listening is
like, we actually do have thatit's, you know, it's called our
heart, like the Holy Spirittakes up residence in our heart.
And we actually can tune in andlisten to the voice of God.
All throughout the day now,yeah, there's things that can
cause interference and that, andwe can get it wrong.
And, you know, there are somethings that we have to practice
(23:09):
there and learn how to be ableto do well, but we do have far
more access to God and to hispersonal voice to us than I
think most men realize or wantto take advantage of.
So I love how you'rehighlighting that, but yeah,
tell your, uh, tell your story.
I would love to hear it.
Jeff Kemp (23:23):
Well, before I tell the story, listening to him in
the metaphorical helmet justhappened because while I was
doing this podcast, you got toknow my personality.
I'm an ideator, I'm a visionary,I love to impart vision, I'm way
over the top, I'm ADD, I cantalk too much, um, but I'm
praying, and I prayed with youbefore this started, that Abba
(23:46):
Father would speak to us andguide us.
As I went kind of long on one ortwo answers, I kind of heard him
saying, Don't just be the onewho's interviewed and expect Don
to ask you another question andgive him some more stuff.
Why don't you stop Jeff and seewhat Don has to say.
And you didn't ask a questionright now.
You kind of synthesized andbrought a new angle and helped
(24:08):
guys a whole bunch.
And I was listening, liking whatI was hearing from you.
You were like, so, but that wasGod's voice that told me, Jeff,
stop being so Jeffy.
You know, you'll, you'll get tobe you.
I like you, but there, you know,let's hear a little bit of Don.
I want to work through him toohere and my sons.
I've had two sons who've had todo job interviews lately, a
career transition stuff, and,uh, you know, my encouragement
(24:31):
to them in a very gentle way,uh, making sure that I'm not
bossing or mentoring becausethey want to be their own man.
I was dude.
God's got this.
Just listen to him.
Father.
God is going to speak to you allthrough that interview.
That's what you can take intoany tense situation, any
(24:52):
conflict with your wife, anyreally important business
meeting.
You can be listening to him inyour heart.
Okay.
Now here's the story.
It's kind of funny, but, uh, forthe last four years, I've been
waking up in the first two orthree minutes before phone or
anything, anything else, whetherI can have a nice long, quiet
time, or just have to jump inthe car and get on a plane or
(25:13):
fly to some city, I'll sit in achair or maybe on the back
porch.
If I have time, I'll take a walkoutside, uh, and I'll take two
or three minutes and say,Father, because of Jesus, thank
you that I get to be your son.
Thank you that you're an amazingdad.
Help me soak in that.
Help me sit in that with you.
And I have a little Shema is thename of that repeated Jewish
(25:35):
prayer that they prayed.
Uh, the Lord, the Lord our Godis one.
You shall love the Lord with allyour heart, soul, and mind.
Um, I wrote my own.
It's Father God, Lord Jesus.
Holy Spirit, Father me, lead me,and fill me.
Help me live as your Son today,depending on you.
Don Ross (25:57):
Yeah.
Fantastic, man.
It's so simple, but like,
Jeff Kemp (26:00):
I see that in the car.
I say it walking through theairport.
I say it in the chair to getstarted.
Well, Stacey and I play tennis.
It's our date.
Uh, our marriage has plenty ofdifferences that bug the heck
out of us.
But when we can date and playtennis, which we love doing
together, we do so much better.
So.
One day I woke up at the lastminute, didn't have my sitting
in the chair with ABBA father,didn't walk out of the house and
(26:22):
drive over to the tennis club asa son, I was kind of groggy,
started warming up in tennisacross from the net from her and
I'm not hitting the ball well,and I'm getting kind of
frustrated and mad.
So what do I do?
I try harder.
I'm kind of a competitiverascal.
I start smacking it harder.
It's not working.
It's not fun for her.
The ball's gone all over theplace.
She can see my attitude.
(26:43):
We're not going to have any funconversation between, you know,
games.
Uh, and all of a sudden, insteadof beating myself up, which
Satan would beat you up,sometimes church morality would
beat you up.
The culture's beating you up.
Instead of beating myself, I, Istopped and I left and it was,
uh, kind of like that old V8commercial.
(27:04):
Oh, I could have had a V8.
I thought, Oh my gosh, I'm notplaying tennis as a son.
And all of a sudden I said, God,help me get back to playing
tennis as a son.
And right then, Don, my wholebody relaxed.
All my muscles calmed down.
My spirit and attitude calmeddown.
(27:25):
I had a chuckle inside of myselfat myself.
And I had the thought, thistennis needs to be fun for her.
And all of a sudden I startedstroking the ball.
Smooth accurately right in thesweet spot of the racket.
It's going right to where shecan warm up without him.
Chase it left and right.
We had a great time, not justtennis wise, playing good tennis
(27:48):
as a son, but relationally, weended up having a date.
And I take that silly exampleinto life and say that wasn't
silly because it's your marriageand it's your competitiveness.
And those things need to beconquered by God.
You can't conquer them yourself.
But they also matter infinancial matters, temptation,
(28:09):
lust issues, um, raising yourkids.
Handling tough situations, uh,making a big decision on a
career move.
I don't want to do it.
And afterwards say, dang it.
I didn't make that decision as ason.
Don Ross (28:25):
Yeah.
Jeff Kemp (28:26):
I made it on my own.
Don Ross (28:29):
Well, and I, you know, as I think your, uh, book kind
of highlights pretty well, italso impacts the way that we,
uh, pursue friendship, right.
That, uh, that the way that menneed to pursue friendship really
has to be built on thatidentity.
So this was actually kind of a,I want to say new idea for me,
but maybe just something Ihadn't really connected the dots
on that well.
So talk to me about that.
(28:49):
Like, what is it about, why dowe need to get this identity
piece in place in order to kindof figure out the friendship
piece as men?
Jeff Kemp (28:57):
We need the identity piece in place.
To have the teamwork we need inlife, which friendship is
central to because we needcourage, courage to be honest
and real and transparent andvulnerable and consistently self
disclose what's going on in ourlife.
That's the only way we can havean objective view of ourself is
(29:20):
if horizontally.
We tell the truth about who weare, not to 600 people in some,
you know, business meeting, notto 60 people at a church
meeting, uh, not to 6, 000 onsocial media, but to one or two
or three deep, trusted,consistent friends, level five
(29:41):
friends, and we'll get to levelfive in a second.
Let me just say, Don, we are inthe most connected era in
history.
Every guy has the bigger, biggernetwork than they've ever had in
history in their phone.
And.
Most of those stay at a certainshallow level or your good
friends, maybe level threefriends.
If you think of five levels offriends, these are the ones in
(30:02):
the middle at maximum.
You can remember like 110, 120names of people that you really,
uh, are semi friends with.
You only talk about the same oldregular stuff within a certain
small container.
It's, it's kind of safe and, andit doesn't go deep.
You know, you spent the wholeday with him playing golf and
hunting and maybe skiing and youcome home and your wife says,
Hey, how was the time with Tom?
(30:23):
And great.
Yeah.
Did you have fun?
Yeah.
Was it meaningful and helpful?
Yeah, sure.
What did you talk about?
Nothing.
Don Ross (30:29):
Yeah, exactly.
Jeff Kemp (30:31):
All right, but
Don Ross (30:32):
Every guy's been there.
Jeff Kemp (30:33):
a, this is the most friendless era in history, and
there's a epidemic of lonelinessbased on this friendlessness.
And Christian men struggle withthis just as much, and you know
who struggles with it more?
Pastors, high performing author,speaker, Podcaster, notoriety
(30:55):
guys, athletes, politicians,anyone who's on a pedestal who's
got corporate leaders.
When you're a leader today,you're getting flattered, which
you love, and you're gettingaggressively critiqued, which
you hate.
So you insulate yourself and youstop having friends.
You have, you know, the hangerhonors, the bandwagon, you know,
(31:20):
uh, President Trump would remindme of this, but most any
politician and sadly, pastorsare afraid of what people in
the, you know, the, the churchwill do to them if they find out
their honest stuff, anyway, uh,76 percent of men don't have
anyone trusted that they cantalk to about anything important
in their life.
That's from research in 2021.
(31:42):
All right, now let's get to justyou and me.
Guys would like to have friends.
They remember when they're inthe military on a high school
football team or whatever, abuddy, but then you get married,
you get busy, you got your job,you're trying to, you know,
coach little league, uh, and youjust, you don't have much time
for it.
But secondly, you're worried ifyou really tell what you're
like, the other guy's going tokind of roll his eyes.
(32:04):
And lose some respect for you.
You've been burned when youshared a prayer request one time
and a guy went and shared it,someone else that turned into
gossip, uh, you're afraid offeeling less than when you tell
a guy how badly you strugglewith porn.
So all of those false fearsbased in an insecure identity.
(32:25):
That doesn't have the courage tobe honest, stop you from
building the deep friendshipthat you really need and want.
And guess what?
He needs it too, because hisproblem with porn may be even
bigger than yours.
And if he doesn't have thatproblem, he's got a drinking
problem or he's got a prideproblem.
Or he's got a marriage problem
Don Ross (32:44):
Or all of the above.
Yeah,
Jeff Kemp (32:46):
or all holy above.
He's a champion problem.
Did, uh, so you asked, how isyour identity crucial to having
deep friendships?
First of all, I don't think wereally understand deep
friendships.
Secondly, we're afraid of thetransparent vulnerability, uh,
that, that comes with being openand honest thirdly.
We don't carve out the time toconsistently be in touch with a
(33:08):
friend and you got to be intouch every week to know each
other's lives.
You can't get the wise counselthat Proverbs talks about, uh,
unless you're in someone's lifeand he's in yours and you're
processing everything everyweek.
That's where we get that wisecounsel.
So your identity gives yousecurity and God's approval and
his smile upon you, even whenyou're, you think you're a
(33:31):
schmuck and that gives you thecourage to put yourself out
there and be real with the otherguy, because you already know,
God thinks well of me and hisopinion matters the most.
Don Ross (33:39):
that's right.
Yeah.
Jeff Kemp (33:40):
Alright, so that is, I think, one of the most crucial
things of why receiving youridentity and letting God re
father you and then soaking itevery day for two or three
minutes to start and thencarrying it with you, wait a
minute, I'm a son of the Father,I'm not just, you know,
Christian dude number 296 beingmeasured against 297 all the
(34:03):
other guys.
Don Ross (34:04):
right.
Yeah, Yeah.
I, man, I love all of that.
I love what you said.
Uh, even just when you kind ofstarted, you were saying, you
know, that, that identity pieceis necessary for courage.
And I think that's so right onthe money.
You know, if, if I can, if I canrest in the fact that I am a son
and that God's love for me iscompletely.
Unchanging than it does.
(34:25):
It gives me the courage to beable to actually be honest about
what's really going on in mylife, because I know that even
if I share all that withsomebody else and it goes south,
right.
And that's what we fear.
Um, and that could happen.
Like it's happened to many ofus.
Um, but even if it does, Myidentity still doesn't change.
(34:46):
I'm still completely loved.
I don't, you know, overnightbecome a train wreck or a
complete disappointment or anutter failure.
You're like, none of thathappens.
I like, I have the courage andthe identity to be able to hear
it at manhood tribes, we callthat getting naked.
I have the courage to be ableto.
You know, like take the guarddown to expose myself, to really
be honest about what is actuallytrue and going on in my life
(35:08):
with another man, because that'sthe only way to, uh, freedom and
wholeness and health, and that'swhat we're trying to pursue, but
getting there, you know, takesmore than, uh, most of us are
willing to do.
And I think that's where you'reright on the money, you know,
just saying that we need thatidentity piece.
But I want to ask you about.
want you have kind of teased acouple times now about these
like five levels of friendship.
(35:28):
And so that's where I kind ofwant to go next is just to have
you, you know, you kind ofmentioned the fifth level is
maybe the deepest or theclosest, but like talk to us
about what those are.
I don't think guys tend to thinkof friendship in levels.
So like what's your, you know,kind of analogy for that.
And, and what are thosedifferent levels sort of look
like for men?
Jeff Kemp (35:46):
okay, well, I'm not trying to help guys, you know,
have Lots of level three, normalfriends.
That's that's taken for granted.
So let's talk about level fourand five and think of a pyramid.
Uh, it's very much like PatLansani's five dysfunctions of
the team, top of the pyramid.
I got the idea from Jim Collinsin good to great, who talked
about five levels of leaders,the rare breed at the top who
(36:10):
changed the culture and buildamazing companies and go from
good to great, they're, they'rethe most humble leaders.
And they're doggedly focused onthe purpose.
Those two traits do apply to thelevel five friendship.
Um, I'll give you more of thembecause Jesus is the model for
(36:32):
level five friendship, levelfour friends.
And a lot of guys don't havesomeone like this that you can
call at 2 AM and say, mymarriage is in a crisis.
My son just got arrested.
I just got arrested.
Uh, I just got caught.
With this, you know, uh, affairor whatever, or I'm in
depression and I haven't toldanyone, my brain won't even
(36:55):
work.
I'm starting to go numb.
Do you have a four, a 2 a.
m.
friend that you trust enoughthat you can be real with?
And I think every one of us.
Need that and want that and yougot to check in with that guy
and you got to maybe share lifestories a little bit Have some
experiences together Ask ifhe'll be confidential and tell
(37:17):
him you'll be confidential withyour stuff Can't will you be
there if I need you and viceversa?
And if you have some old friendslike that, you haven't talked to
him because you moved away fromthem nurture those old
friendships You can't make oldfriends again.
You can't make an old friend.
They have to exist already.
Don Ross (37:34):
Yeah.
Okay.
This is, this is so greatbecause what you're describing
as a level four friend is atleast in my experience of
working with men is what I thinkmost men think of as a really
close friend, right?
That's, I think that's what, ifI ask a guy like who are his
close friends, the guys thatcome to mind in his head are the
guys that he would say he couldcall in a crisis, right?
(37:54):
The guy that he could call, uh,when, when, you know, the poo is
hitting the fan.
Um, but for most guys.
Uh, they haven't spoken to the,that guy, you know, to the 2 a.
m.
friend since high school orcollege.
And that may be for, you know,decades for many men, you know,
it's like, yeah, I'm pretty sureI could like pick back up where
we left off, but I haven'ttalked to him in a long time,
but if I really needed him, Ibet he would be there for me,
(38:17):
but you're saying that's justlike a level four friend and
there's actually somethingdeeper or better than that.
So like, tell us what, like,what's the difference, what's
the
Jeff Kemp (38:24):
Yeah, I think your point is a level forefront is a
close friend that you have sometrust and confidence in.
And, you know, you said it mighthave been 10 years.
I'm going to say it might havebeen 3 months ago.
You haven't talked since then.
That still means.
He's not there to help youduring those three months and
you're not there to help him.
Um, you're drifting off course.
(38:44):
Level five is close, but it'sconsistent and deep, consistent
and deep.
So I'm going to, I'm going tolay out a number of words here.
First of all, it's intentional.
You decide I want and need, andso does my, my buddy or two
other buddies, this type offriendship, intentional,
(39:05):
committed.
It's consistent in the sensethat you set a schedule that
we're going to talk about eachweek.
Some guys text you three times aweek about the important stuff.
Some guys have a callautomatically, but most guys
have to schedule a call, a zoomor meeting up with each other.
All right.
This is not a small group.
(39:25):
This is not something you joinand unjoin.
This isn't a noun.
This is a verb.
This is doing friendship.
So intentional, committed,consistent, it's scheduled.
And then you explain, what doyou want out of friendship?
And he explains it to you.
And I can help you with that inthis level five friendship
playbook, about 10 pages of, ofbullet points and guidance that
(39:46):
I drew from Jesus and the Bibleand, uh, experience with
friends.
And then you build safety andtrust.
You, you build rapport bytelling each other stories,
knowing, Hey, what was your dadlike?
What was your childhood like?
What was your biggest blitz inlife?
What's been hard?
in my, In my, uh, I built acouple of really solid level
five friends, uh, over the lastcouple of years, in addition to
(40:08):
a couple that I meet withalready.
And I had this group of guysthat didn't even know each other
and I'm calling it a group, butreally our goal was to become
friends because we had anaffinity as speakers and men's
ministry dudes.
And they didn't know each other,but they knew me.
And I put a zoom together.
We told our life stories for thefirst couple of weeks.
We talked about our risk areas.
What are our temptation areas?
(40:30):
My mine is the physical, uh, uh,the, the lust of the eyes, the
visual, the curiosity, you know,women.
Um, and secondly, a quest forsignificant significance, kind
of this hidden pride that alwayswants more.
Uh, I put that on the tableearly and I also had us
metaphorically shake hands andsay, are you confidential?
Sure.
Because I am.
(40:50):
Do you have my back?
I have yours.
Once men do something likephysically shaking hands, fist
bumping, shoulder bumping, itsinks in and it means something.
So all this is kind of layingthe intentionality for how your
team of friendship is going tooperate.
And then it starts being humbleand open and self disclosing.
You're not afraid to confessyour struggles and weaknesses or
(41:11):
your great successes.
You can be real.
Um, and you pray for each other.
So that's all level five.
Once you get intentional and youknow, you're going to talk to
each other each week, the keyis, are you going to talk about
what's important and here's theway to do it.
Just ask a guy within the firstfive minutes of connecting
instead of talking about thegolf match or, you know,
(41:32):
something else.
You can do that all week long,but you got to have an
intentional time to talk aboutwhat's important.
You, you, you say God, uh, orexcuse me.
you say Hey, uh, You know, Don,what's the most important thing
that you need to talk abouttoday?
And then I ask you a secondquestion.
What's the most important thingI can pray for?
And then I urge men to say a manprayer with your friends, which
(41:55):
is short, sweet.
and inspired by what God wantsfor them more than what you can
dream up for them.
So just say something like,Lord, I pray that you bless
Don's marriage and family evenmore than his podcast.
Help him not get carried awaywith it.
Whatever's best for him,whatever's best for Don, do
that, Lord.
Amen.
Wow.
(42:16):
The dude's like, I like gettingprayed for like that.
It didn't, it wasn'tintimidating.
It wasn't long.
It didn't have fancy Holylanguage.
Uh, and then he'll ask youwhat's the most important thing.
Okay.
You can ask other questions, butthis is not an accountability
group.
You're not saying how'd you, youknow, did you cheat on your
taxes and did you hit the dog?
And what do you mean to yourwife this week?
(42:36):
Um, did you look at some wrongstuff on your phone?
Um, we should self disclose thatstuff.
That's so much better.
Don Ross (42:44):
Yeah.
And in that kind of friendship,that's the way it should happen.
Yeah,
Jeff Kemp (42:47):
accountability.
Yeah, and I will help theseguys, any of them listening,
develop that level fivefriendship.
And you need to pray, first ofall, who God needs me and who do
I need?
And then you can start checkingin with guys for the next couple
of weeks and asking those coupleof questions and offering to go
first.
(43:08):
And if a guy is warm to it andlikes it, then you might want to
get intentional and call him andsay, what if we set up a regular
call?
And maybe we could do it withone other guy.
Cause I think a, a triplefriendship team is super duper
powerful.
Um, it's just two personalities,twice twice the prayer, twice
the objective input on thethings you're going through.
(43:29):
And Don, this isn't just abouttalking about the stuff that
happened last week.
It's talking about the thingsyou're thinking of doing in the
next week to year.
That way you can process yourlife ahead of time.
And once you say it out loud toa friend, an honest friend, it
might sound a lot dumber than itdid in your head when you get it
out of your mouth.
(43:49):
Or they may ask a question.
Like my friend asked me, Hey, doyou think you have a lot of
credibility on that issue?
You want to talk to your sonabout?
And I said, not really.
I think it's going to turn outwell.
And I said, no, not really.
He said, okay.
So he, he consulted me and Icame up with my own conclusion
because our friendship is thatintegrated into the most
(44:10):
important things.
And I told a friend of mineabout this one day.
He said, geez, Jeff, you guysaren't just friends.
It's like you're partners in oneanother's life.
Yeah, we are.
We're, we're partners.
I want, I want Greg and Pete towin in marriage.
And fathering in their walk withGod in their discipleship.
And they want me to win God'sway.
(44:31):
And we're together.
Don Ross (44:33):
dude.
That's awesome.
And I think probably as guys arelistening to that, uh, there's a
lot of men out there who really,really long for that kind of
friendship.
But I want to ask you, Jeff,cause uh, as I've gone through
this series, the, the, The mostcommon comment that I've gotten
from, you know, guys who are,uh, listening in or watching the
content that I've put out therehas been, yeah, I'm 27 or I'm
(44:57):
38, or I'm, you know, 59.
I don't have a single friend.
That's been the most commoncomment.
I don't have any friends.
So I think there's a lot of guysout there who are listening to
this kind of content and aregoing, yeah, I really, really
want that.
But when I look around to try tofind like who I could pursue
that with, there's nobody,there's nobody on the radar at
(45:19):
all.
So what would you say to a guywho's in that position?
Like how and where does he evenget started?
Jeff Kemp (45:28):
I'm not criticizing that guy, but I'm diagnosing.
He's probably saying I'm lookingaround and I'm not seeing it.
I'm not feeling it.
I don't know who he's doing iton his own.
He's not doing it as a son.
Jesus wouldn't have just said,Hey, I wonder who my disciples
should be.
Jesus went up on a mountain fora whole night with his Abba
(45:50):
father, spent the whole nightwith Listening to Abba Father,
talking with him, and then hechose the 12 friends.
And the Father guided him toPeter, James, and John as his
deepest three, I guess you'd saylevel five friends, Jesus type
friends, the deepest consistentfriends.
So I'm saying to that guy,listen, buddy, you have
(46:13):
something to offer to someoneelse.
And they've got something tooffer to you.
God can do anything.
He raised Jesus from the dead.
He can find you friends, askhim, ask him, be a son and say,
father, guide me to who you wantme to become a buddy with a
level five friend.
And, uh, just show me the stepsto get the ball rolling and give
(46:34):
me the courage at the right timeto intentionality and almost
this commitment that what kindof friendship do you want?
Let's, let's talk about this.
Uh, let's, let's define it.
And then let's start putting iton the calendar and showing up
with each other weekly.
It's easy to put a call togetherfor 45 minutes a week.
You might have to move the time.
We, if you only have two otherguys you're doing it with, it's
(46:56):
easy to move it around.
If it's a small group of sevenguys, A, there's no time for
each guy to talk.
B, there's at least two guys inthe group you're not sure if you
want to share that with.
C, you're studying some bookthat fills up the hour and
there's no time to talk and praywith each other.
That's a group.
You need a friend.
You need a You need two friendsand God will guide him there.
(47:17):
If you ask him and say, God, I'myour son, guide me to this.
You want this more than I do.
So make it happen and get in a,get in a, uh, a Bible study at
church, a small group at church,go ask the mentor pastor, uh, go
to a Christian businessnetworking, marketing thing, or
(47:37):
look back at your old friends.
And decide you're going to dothis by phone or zoom and not
worry that he doesn't live inthe same city anymore.
God can skin this cat.
God can skin this cat a millionways.
If you let him be the lead as ason.
Don Ross (47:51):
Yeah.
He's a good father.
No, that's awesome.
Jeff.
Uh, gosh, this has been afantastic conversation.
And I feel like, uh, there's somany rabbit trails.
I could have gone down in thisconversation.
We're going to have to do itagain and we could spend another
couple hours, I think, talkingthrough these things, but yeah,
this is awesome, man.
So, uh, as guys are listening,if they're hearing what you're
saying, uh, I know you've got a,uh, kind of resource that you
want to help get in their hands.
(48:12):
Where can they go to kind of getsome access to your content?
Jeff Kemp (48:15):
Yeah.
I think that the singlequickest, shortest help they can
get is to get this level fivefriendship playbook.
It's a digital PDF.
They can download it.
When you go to men, huddle.
com.
My, my website is men, huddle.
com.
Um, it's also Jeff kept team.
com.
Uh, but either one of those,it'll pop up.
(48:36):
And you'll download it and thenyou can send the website to a
friend and have him look itover.
You could give it to a, youknow, a pastor at church or
another leader of men and say,Hey, what do you think of this?
Let's talk about this.
So get the men huddle playbook,uh, at my website and you'll see
There's a book there, the audiobook is, uh, uh, available, and
the normal book, it's Receivethe Way of Jesus for Men that
(48:58):
you mentioned, um, and there's aBible study, I call it Field
Guide, Daily Devotions, and thengroup questions, uh, for groups.
My church has a couple hundredguys going through it right now,
and, uh, the Refathering's inthere.
The building deep friends is inthere.
Um, operating from your identityas a son is in there and I've
(49:20):
got a weekly blog that I try tokeep it short because I have
some editors who do better thanme at keeping things short and
they help me.
And I've heard guys say this ishitting the real issues in my
life.
So you'll get that if you signup for the, um, level five
friendship playbook again, menhuddle.
com.
Don Ross (49:38):
Awesome.
Yeah.
We'll put that in the shownotes.
So guys, you can, uh, go thereand look for that link, uh, to
be able to find it and to godownload that resource.
I would encourage you to do thattoday.
And Jeff, man, uh, thanks forbeing on the show today.
This is a great conversation.
Really appreciate your time.
Jeff Kemp (49:51):
Hey, it's great, Don.
Thanks, man.
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