December 11, 2024 • 33 mins
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This week’s episode of MarketPulse: Pros and Pioneers brings a special guest, Adrian Fulle, President and CEO of Good Salt Life. Adrian’s journey from Hollywood producer to marketing expert is nothing short of fascinating.
For over two decades, he rubbed shoulders with some of the biggest names in the entertainment industry, producing films and commercials for global brands. Yet, at the height of his career, Adrian made the bold decision to leave it all behind for a fresh start in marketing.
In this episode, Adrian dives deep into how the principles of storytelling he learned in Hollywood can be directly applied to marketing. He shares insights into how businesses can tap into neuroscience and data to create emotionally resonant brand narratives. You’ll hear about his personal encounters with celebrities, his thoughts on the balance between emotional and data-driven marketing, and how behavioural science can be used ethically in today’s marketing landscape.
If you’ve ever wondered how storytelling can be a superpower in marketing, or how to adapt the hero’s journey to the customer journey, this episode will leave you with actionable takeaways. Adrian’s reflections on life, purpose, and finding happiness beyond the spotlight will also inspire anyone going through a career shift.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Paul (00:00):
Hello and welcome to this week's episode of MarketPulse
(00:04):
pros and pioneers.
I have to stutter every time Isay that because I have two or
three different shows for two orthree different reasons and I
work with clients and every weekI come to record and I go, good
evening.
And my mind's going, yeah, getthe show right.
Get the show, do get it right,but it takes this is good.
This week I want to welcome tothe show, Adrian Fulle.
(00:25):
Adrian is the president and CEOat Good Salt Life where he
merges the fantastic backgroundin Hollywood storytelling with
strategic market and experience.
So over 20 years inentertainment, working with top
brands and celebrities, andAdrian was telling me some
fabulous stories before theepisode started about some names
(00:45):
and people that he's workedwith.
But interestingly, That wasn'twhere Adrian wanted to be.
So he made a career shift, aquite a bold one at that, at the
age of 40, moving from LosAngeles to Denver, and then
transitioning into marketing.
And I can, I know a few peoplehave made similar moves.
I totally understand why thatwould happen.
(01:06):
I'm going to try and share thatwith the audience today as we're
going along so where Adrian isunique is that his approach
combines narrative techniques.
With data and neuroscience and Ithink it's so so powerful that
most people don't ever get closeto understanding it.
And he helps businesses tocreate impactful brand stories
(01:26):
and then successful businessstrategies on the back of that.
Adrian, thank you so much forcoming along, being a guest on
the show.
It's a pleasure to have you on.
Adrian (01:34):
Thank you.
It's been a great pleasure to beon, Paul.
Appreciate it.
Paul (01:36):
Fantastic.
First up.
I know the audience are going towant to hear this because
they've already pricked theirears up.
20 years in Hollywood.
Wow.
You must have some outrageousstories to tell, right?
Adrian (01:48):
I definitely have some that I won't repeat on this
podcast, but I started mycareer.
I was passionate about tellingstories in the theatrical medium
or the film medium.
I wanted to make movies and Iwas from Chicago and I went to
film school in Chicago.
And right out of film school, Igot a lucky break with the
director and writer from the1980s, all the big movies in the
(02:10):
80s, his name was John Hughes,some of your audience may have
heard of him, but he did, FerrisBueller's Day Off and Baby's Day
Out and Sixteen Candles and, allthe big ones that influenced me
as a young man growing up inIllinois.
And so I got a job working forhim.
He became my mentor on thewriting side, and I entered into
the entertainment business as awriter.
First, I had a screenplay thatwas picked up by a producer, an
(02:34):
independent film producer, andby the age of 23, I was off
making my first movie.
It was pretty exciting.
Ultimately, over time, thatevolved.
I moved to Los Angeles after twoor three films having made two
or three films in Illinois.
And and that evolved over time,over 20 years in Los Angeles, I
became a producer ultimatelybecause I learned that I was a
good storyteller, but I wasn't agreat, like the top of the line
(02:55):
filmmaker.
So I said, all right I'm goingto go learn from some other
filmmakers, I'll go produce forthem cause I know how to
produce.
You had to learn that in filmschool.
So I started producing and thatjust became a business.
Next thing I know, I'm, we'remaking commercials and music
videos and marketing content forbrands like Red Bull and
Paramount Pictures and WarnerBrothers and all the big
(03:16):
studios.
And it was quite a ride.
Variety Magazine, which is theBible of of the entertainment
industry, one day called andsaid, we're looking for someone
to come build our contentstudio.
Would you want to do that?
And so that was my first sortof, Minor career shift.
And that of course led me intothe circles of all those
celebrities and those crazystories.
And, got to interview AngelinaJolie, got to hang out with
(03:38):
Robert Pattinson, got to, dovideo content for Madonna, Lady
Gaga.
You name it.
It's just nuts how many.
Celebrities I was able to meet.
But the one thing I learnedthrough all of that, Paul, was
that that thing that we all wentinto the business for, that
passion to tell stories for mostof us, and I have to look in the
mirror and look back and say, itprobably was for me too,
(03:59):
although I always denied it.
There really was that drive forfame and fortune.
And slowly over time I got olderand I was no longer the young,
cool guy in the room about allthe meetings.
I was the oldest guy with notthe cool ideas anymore.
And I didn't have that passionanymore.
I didn't have that desire forwhatever it was I was searching
for by going into that businessin the first place and was
(04:22):
getting depressed.
And my wife said look, ifthere's no passion.
And it's just a job.
And if it's just a job, there'sa lot of jobs where you're not
working nights and weekends, andyou can see your kid grow up and
that kind of thing.
So I decided at 42 years old, Ithink I was, or forget the age,
my early forties to make acareer shift.
And I got to tell you, man, it'sbeen the best thing ever to
happen to me, but also thescariest thing I did at that
(04:43):
time in my life.
Cause it's hard.
It's hard to leave a network of20 years of work and completely
change everything and have nonew network and safety net or
anything like
Paul (04:53):
And I think that is the story of Many founders of their
own businesses, perhaps withoutthe magnification of what was
Hollywood, right?
So I think if I, even if Ireflect on my own journey, there
was a crucible that I wentthrough, which was retail for
me.
There's Hollywood for you,retail for me, but ultimately
(05:14):
it's the same thing, right?
It is, it all boils down to thesame thing.
We set out in the world to makea difference.
We get an opportunity, we domake a difference to an extent,
and then we realise that there'slimitations.
That role, that job, that careerisn't built on the things that
we enjoy doing.
And I think as you get older,you start to get closer to your
(05:35):
why.
Your, what gets me out of bed inthe morning?
And it's not the career.
It's not money, it's not, allthose things are nice, no doubt
and I know, I've no doubt thereare people out there who have
money who are perfectly happywith what they're doing and how
they got away.
I know a lot of people who havemoney who aren't, are still
looking for that next big thing,that next dopamine hit, that
(05:58):
next endorphin rush.
And.
I think what you've describedthere is that exact thing?
Like you, you got to that point,you realized it was something
more and you've chased that andhats off to your point, exactly
20 year career and a networkbuilt around that to then give
that up and do something else.
I can imagine that really wasscary.
(06:19):
Was it the right choice?
Adrian (06:20):
it was the right choice.
I got to tell you that many ofthe, I'm not going to name
names.
That's not fair.
But many of the celebrities thatI worked with and met were
miserable.
And I was just shocked becausesome of them were my idols.
Like I would walk into the roomand I couldn't believe I'm
standing there with so and andand they're talking to me like
an equal and I'm a human beingand they're just a human being
and we're getting along aspeople that, that was stunning,
(06:41):
but at the same time, you startto see that they're not happy.
And I want to scream at the topof my lungs, but you got what
everybody wants.
You've got the fame and fortune.
Why, how could you not be happy?
And I think not until I madethat shift and we moved to
Colorado and I went intomarketing, did we realize that I
realized that happiness doesn'tcome from those things.
It's the old story.
(07:01):
We've heard it a million times,but it doesn't come from that
money.
It doesn't come from achieving acareer goal.
It comes from somewhere else.
And and we're much happier nowwith a better quality of life,
for example, than working 24, 7,but having a status, I walked
down the street.
Nobody cares what I do.
They don't recognize me.
I'm just the bald guy from downthe street, and but in L.
(07:22):
A.
And we live You know, you reallywanted people to see you.
They wanted people to come up toyou and say, Hey, I know so and
so who knows you, you worked onthis project, whatever.
That feeling is like a, gettinga like on Facebook or Instagram,
hard, it's like a, that dopaminehit.
It doesn't last forever.
And quite frankly, when youdeplete your dopamine, what
happens?
You get depressed.
(07:43):
And so now I see a whole.
Industry of people that aredepressed and unhappy and
they're on medications to becomehappy, to get over depression.
But when reality is the thingthat they're doing is making
them unhappy.
The thing that they thoughtwould make them happy is
actually making them unhappy.
So that's my experience.
Not everyone, like we talkedabout in the brief, some people
are very happy at that world.
(08:03):
And I did meet a few celebritiesthat were very happy with their
lives.
Paul (08:07):
I think there are a couple of things that probably feed
into that situation that I've,through conversations that I've
had on the podcast,conversations I have with my
network, and there are twothings that seem to keep
recurring is first thing is wetend to, and this is a sidetrack
slightly from the purpose of thepodcast, right?
But let's go with it.
First off We raise our childrento talk about what career they
(08:32):
want to have, what job they wantto have, to dream to have an
amazing job in the eyes of asix, seven, eight year old that
doesn't see the baggage thatcomes with those jobs or the
long hours that are required tobe good at that job or whatever,
rather than training ourchildren to identify what makes
(08:53):
them happy.
So we ask our kids, what do youwant to be when we should be
asking them, Why do you want todo what you want to do?
What makes you happy in life?
How can we help you do more ofthat?
And I'm, I always struggled toidentify a career path.
Like my, my, my seniorleadership would be like, so
what do you want to do in 10years time?
Where do you want to be?
What role do you want to have?
I'm like, I don't know.
(09:14):
I just want to do more of thethings that make me happy.
And I can't tell you what thatis right now because it changes
over time.
So let's just see where it getsto.
I'm not going to worry about it.
Adrian (09:24):
I'm just going to double click on that.
I made a conscious decision tonot define myself by my career.
That was part of the careerchange was to say, I don't
introduce myself as a filmproducer anymore.
I am just Adrian.
My wife's from Italy.
And I remember when we werefirst dating, I met her Italian
family and I asked her fatherand the cousins.
The first question I had for allof them was like, Oh, what do
(09:45):
you do for a living?
Cause it's so important to us.
in the And they were shocked andthey were offended.
They're like, why is he askingus what we do for a living?
That's not who we are.
We're just, anyway, I was
Paul (09:55):
Don't ask about the family business! But then I think the
other thing is likeneurodiversity, right?
I talk about it a lot to a lotof people and I do think that
there are Extremes of oursociety that are driven by a
poor understanding when we wereyounger, which is probably now
being remedied somewhat.
But when I was a kid in the1980s, nobody, you couldn't
(10:17):
choose to be ADHD, right?
It wasn't a thing that you couldhave, right?
So you were either a kid thatmisbehaved, Or hard to work with
kid or a disruptive child.
And we, satisfaction levels areset up here compared to your
average neurotypical personhaving a satisfaction level down
here.
And I do wonder, like as muchwith prisons as with.
(10:40):
Like actors and celebrities,they chase that endorphin rush
and dopamine hit.
And part of me wonders like howmany celebrities would be ADHD
or neurodiverse and have chasedthat dopamine hit to get to that
level and have to keep hittingthat.
And that is tiring.
When you do get that hit, it'stiring still.
There's a lot of pressure onyour body.
(11:02):
Does that then contribute asmuch their side as it does to
the people who've ended up inprison because they've become
substance abuse and alcoholabuse because they're chasing
the dopamine and endorphin rush?
That's totally outside the scopeof this episode, but I do it
was, part of me wonders whatwe're going to see in 40 years
time when my son grows up in anera where we accept
(11:22):
neurodiversity and we helppeople, deal with it properly,
as opposed to just tellingyou're a naughty kid.
Adrian (11:28):
I think we'll find that as we accept it and we deal with
it properly, society will startto move away from the idea that
fame is an important thing.
Most people don't have any levelof fame.
They don't walk down the streetor go to a restaurant, for
example, and people walk up tothem.
I'll never forget, I was in arestaurant with Billy Bob
Thornton, the actor, and peoplewould, lined up.
(11:50):
A single file line while we wereeating dinner to say hi and how
much they love his acting andhis work.
Now, imagine if you're seekingthat dopamine hit, and then
you're like, okay, I'm done.
I'm depleted.
I'm going to go out and havedinner.
And then suddenly you're gettinghit constantly with more with
that you're not even trying for.
That's celebrity.
That's just, it's justimpossible to go anywhere or do
(12:11):
anything without that attack of,on your brain dopamine.
It's just crazy.
Paul (12:15):
Let's, it's a marketing podcast, I want to move let's
tear ourselves away from that,cause it's probably a whole
other episode on its own asfascinating as it is.
Hollywood storytellingtechniques combined with good
salt life.
So how do you apply those sametechniques and principles that
you learned back in the day in amarketing angle now?
Adrian (12:34):
There's several ways to do it, but I think the one I'll
focus on for today's podcast isstructure.
So when we think about thestorytelling, the structure of
storytelling in Hollywood, let'ssay it's a movie.
People typically think of movieswhen they think of structure as
three acts.
You have a beginning, the middleand end.
Usually the middle is thelongest act.
The third act is the recall ofthe first, first act.
(12:56):
And it's answering the questionsthat come up in the first act
and resolving the problems,right?
But really what Hollywood moviesand also television television
is technically five acts, butthese are all 12 act structures.
And what I mean by that isthey're all part of the hero's
journey, which is a structurethat was discovered by Joseph
Campbell.
For those who probably,everyone's probably heard of
(13:18):
Joseph Campbell by now, but.
Deep diving deep intomythologies and not just Joseph
Campbell, some people thatpreceded him as well.
And they discovered thatthroughout history.
From the ancient times to now,there is this sort of prevailing
structure around how humans tellstories, and he called it, he
dubbed it the hero's journey,and it's a 12 act structure that
your most popular movies andbooks and everything adhere to,
(13:40):
whether the authors or writersknew what they were doing or
not.
That 12 act structure is acircle.
The hero starts.
Going about his or her dailynormal routine and something
pulls them into this journey andthen they go along this whole
journey all the way down to theabyss where they have to defeat
the monster or the dragon orwhat have you and then come back
changed and then they're a newperson at the end of the story.
(14:03):
That same structure is also, itturns out, and this is where I
immediately connected when Ientered the marketing world with
oh, I already know this stuff tosome degree.
It connects with, it's the sameas the customer journey the
customer journey is the hero'sjourney.
It's just five accents insteadof 12.
So that, the first place tostart, and how you tell stories
in Hollywood is basically thesame way you're gonna tell
(14:25):
stories in marketing, it's alittle truncated, but it's
basically the same.
And the key here is.
In marketing, it's more of aninteractive story.
It's not passive.
So as a brand, a product, aservice, whatever you're
selling, essentially, you haveto understand where you come in
that customer's journey.
So thinking about from thehero's journey example are you
(14:48):
the wise old wizard Gandalfwho's going to lead the hobbits
on this journey and hold theirhand the whole way?
Are you Obi Wan Kenobi leadingLuke Skywalker on the whole,
journey?
Or are you just selling thesword or the lightsaber that
they're going to need?
To defeat Darth Vader or thedragon Smaug, So you have to
understand where your product,your service, your brand comes
(15:09):
in on their journey, and thendrill down on that.
So understanding the customerjourney is the first thing you
have to know as a marketer andobviously understanding your
customers is the first thing youhave to know, but the second is
their journey and the structureof that journey and how you
structure your marketing contentis very similar to what we did
in Hollywood storytelling.
Paul (15:27):
that is Easily the best analogy that we've had on the
show for a customer journey.
I love it.
I love it I want to be and nowthat you've said it I really
want to be or be one There is nodoubt about it.
Adrian (15:40):
Yeah, me too.
Paul (15:41):
But then to take that one step further, you also combine
elements of understanding dataand neuroscience with that as
well.
So where does that sit in thatcustomer journey?
Adrian (15:49):
Now we're going down that rabbit hole, man.
Here we go.
So let's say that the customeris going along in their life and
everything is normal and theyare going to fall into this
journey, right?
There's two ways it happens.
They either are forced into thejourney.
In our business, at Good SaltLife, we manufacture clean
living products, disinfectants,cleaners, things for your home,
(16:11):
your house, your skin, etcetera.
During COVID.
Everybody was forced into thatjourney.
They needed to startdisinfecting.
We had to wipe our hands, washour hands.
We had to wash our food,everything.
That's one way to get into thejourney.
The other way is to be pulledinto the journey by someone like
the wizard who pulls you intothat journey.
And so if you think about LukeSkywalker, he wasn't going to
take the journey with Obi Wan.
(16:33):
But then his aunt and uncle hismeans of life were murdered and
he had no choice.
And then he learns along the wayhe has this destiny and he comes
from a long lineage of Jedi's,et cetera.
So thinking about the customer,what causes them to go on the
journey?
And that goes all the way backto basically brain science.
And this is where it gets deep.
And this is where I've beenfocused on the last two years of
(16:55):
my life because I just love itso much.
It's something that I initiallylearned at Stanford's graduate
school of business and a programI was in there.
And then really it gotsupercharged by a guy named Rob
Duboff.
He's a professor at Harvard.
I was at Harvard and graduatedrecently with a master's.
And Rob teaches a strategicdecision making class that
(17:17):
utilizes a book by the authorDaniel Kahneman called Thinking
Fast and Slow.
And it's all about how the
Paul (17:24):
is a dry book
Adrian (17:25):
and it's all about how you.
Yeah, it's a great, yeah, it's agreat, it's a great read.
And it's the first half is hardbecause it's all really detailed
about how the brain works.
But when you get intounderstanding that there's two
systems in the brain and thefirst system is a system, one
they call it is your, isbasically your autonomy, like
it's 90, it makes 90 percent ofthe decisions for you and you
(17:47):
don't even know you're makingdecisions, and it's your
mammalian part of your brain,it's your gut feeling, it's your
fight or flight reaction, it'sthose things that you just.
Can't describe.
System two is your dataprocessing system.
And so it, it then comes insecondarily and looks at what
you're trying to make a decisionon and thinks through the data.
So when you're thinking aboutthe customer journey and you're
(18:09):
like what's going to cause themto go on this journey?
A lot of it is a decision thatthey have to make.
And so understanding how theirbrain works to make that
decision will then tell you as amarketer, how do I appeal to
that to those brain systems tocause them to click, engage,
call, go to the, whatever theaction is you're trying to get
them to take.
And so what it turns out is youhave to appeal to their
(18:30):
emotional side first and thenbring in the data.
So marketers who lead with data,our product is nine times better
than blah, blah, blah, or 15times faster.
The brain doesn't, It doesn'twant to, it ignores that because
you haven't appealed to thememotionally first.
You have to connect thememotionally for the system one
to work and then it'll go tosystem two.
(18:51):
You bring in data secondarily.
So once I understood that, thatchanged the game for how we
create content, how we createour messaging.
In some cases, maybe we don'teven get to system two because
it's not necessary.
So on and so forth.
So I think that's in the zone ofwhat you're asking, but
Paul (19:06):
It's again, it's a, whole episode on its own, right?
Like it's a whole series on itsown not just an episode.
And I've got a deep love forbehavioral science specifically
because it's just, it influenceseverything that we do.
Yeah, I think there's so muchpower with behavioral science
that if you're not payingattention to even the principles
(19:28):
of it, you're missing out on somuch power.
But as I was saying to somebodythat I was networking with
earlier on, he was a behavioralscientist.
It's a slippery slope for thedark side of behavioral science
too, right?
There's a big ethical concernaround it, and you've got to be
careful to stay on theinfluencing positively as
opposed to manipulatingnegatively, and It's definitely
(19:51):
something that I would encouragebusiness owners to look into,
but if you're gonna do it, workwith an expert or Get really
deep in the knowledge becausethere are so many unintended,
and I think that's the power ofit, is the unintended
consequences of any onebehavioral science principle
this
Adrian (20:11):
I'll never forget.
There was an election years ago.
It was John McCain in Americawas running for president
against Barack Obama, and therewas all these ads about how
Barack Obama was a terrorist andall these crazy, stupid things,
and they were running those adsto change.
I'm not changing behavior, butto influence the John McCain's
(20:31):
audience to vote for John overBarack Obama.
And I'll never forget there wasa, an engagement where John is
speaking to a large audience andthen it got to the Q& A and some
guy raises his hands and hesays, what are we going to do?
Barack Obama is a terrorist.
He can't be elected presidentbecause then all the terrorists
are going to take over Americaand it was just mayhem.
And you could see in JohnMcCain's face was like, oops.
(20:54):
We went a little too far withour ads because this guy
actually
Paul (20:57):
be where we are.
Adrian (20:59):
No, man, it's crazy.
Yeah.
Taking Pollock, like the sidesout of it, just the idea that
you're going to be influencepeople's behaviors, influence
their decisions and their minds.
It's like you said, it's, becareful with that kind of power
because it's not hard to do.
It's happening all the time fromall around us.
One of the things I don't knowwhen I get into this, one of the
(21:20):
things I've started going, likeI started going deeper than
behavior and into physiology andbiology and looking at how like
we create marketing assets,video content, picture content,
text, whatever it is.
And the person that we'reselling to has to perceive that
asset.
So there, there's a perception.
I learned recently, I didn'tknow this.
(21:40):
There is no perception thathappens that isn't preceded by
an action, which I didn't know.
So that means if I'm looking atthis marketing picture.
I'm not passively looking at it.
There are all these physicalactions that are happening at
the same time and that happenedbefore I looked at it and are
going to happen after.
For example, your eyeballs arealways moving, right?
(22:00):
If they stop moving, even thoughyou don't feel it, if they stop
moving, you can't see thepicture.
Everything goes out of focus.
Understanding that there arethese physiology, physiological
activities within your body.
That are happening as youperceive something, how can we,
this sounds crazy, but how canwe leverage that information and
that knowledge to then get agreater click through rate or
(22:23):
whatever that action is that wewant the audience to take?
How do we, maybe that those 40.
Physiological actions that arehappening before they click,
maybe there's a way we canleverage that with the image
that we show will lead to moreclicks.
I don't know.
It gets a little scary and talkabout power, then you get really
crazy, but that's where I'mgoing down that rabbit hole
these days.
Paul (22:42):
But it's fascinating, right?
And it's clear that you're superpassionate about it.
And going back to what we weretalking about before, you're
chasing that passion, which isfantastic to see.
Because there are so manypeople, I don't have a problem
with corporations, right?
Like corporations are what theyare and corporate life is, it's
great for some people and it'snot great for other people.
And I had to get out because itwasn't fulfilling me.
(23:05):
And now that I'm doing what I'mdoing, I feel the difference.
And I wish I'd gotten outearlier.
But I know that I needed to gothrough it to get where I am
now.
So I don't regret do, but Idon't regret anything.
But I just wish I'd done thingsquicker.
But it's fantastic to meetsomebody who's.
Like you've got that selfawareness that you needed to do
(23:26):
something different.
You're brave enough to take thatstep.
And I think there'd probably bea lot of people in the audience
who watching the episode, whonodding along going, yeah, I've
been through that.
Like I'm there now or whatever.
So take this the way it's meantto be.
I guess then bringing it back tothe.
Marketing a little bit more aswell is, we ask all our guests
(23:47):
and with your unique perspectiveon this, I'm interested to see
where this might go is what isone marketing practice or
strategy or tactic that you wishbusiness owners would just stop
using?
Maybe it's outdated, maybe itnever worked, maybe it's claimed
to work and doesn't what is itthat you see just grinds your
gears?
Adrian (24:06):
It's funny you say that because I was promoted to the
CEO position a few months back.
And as soon as I was, myLinkedIn just blew up with AI
written, messages.
So I wish they would stop that.
That'd be one thing.
Cause I don't know that bringsany ROI.
I, there was a company here inColorado we use that did bring
us some ROI with a LinkedInoutreach campaign.
But in general, they, I don'tthink those work.
(24:28):
And and also that's that it'sthat tactic of throw.
Stuff against the wall and seewhat sticks.
And you can feel that in themessage when it comes through.
Oh, AI wrote this.
The person didn't even reviewit.
And the script went out and intwo days, I'm going to get the
next one.
And I already know what it'sgoing to say.
Cause I got 50 of themyesterday.
It's getting saturated.
So that's one thing I thinkthese LinkedIn outreach
(24:49):
campaigns, but in general, Ithink I think that we still have
a lot.
So I think a lot of marketingprofessionals are specialists.
And they have a great career outof specializing in digital
marketing, SEO, whatever it is,right?
And I think I would love to seemore marketing people become, at
(25:11):
least partially becomegeneralists, understand the
greater business.
I've worked and built marketingteams where they.
A lot of folks be brilliant atwhat they do.
They never understood the largerbusiness.
How does the larger businessmake money?
What is our larger business?
And do I actually align withthat in my values and what have
you?
And that's, they're really hyperfocused on that one lever that
(25:31):
they pull, which I understand.
It makes them money and theyhave, they can survive and have
a family and whatever.
But I think having just more ofan open mindset and thinking
larger is something I'd like tosee more.
So it's not something I want tosay, it's That marketers should
stop doing, but I think thatexpanding their vision of the
business and of the marketingdiscipline and, like what you
(25:53):
and I've done, maybe not make acareer change, but dive into
something you don't knowanything about and be willing to
say, I know, raise your hand.
I know nothing about this.
I want to learn.
I think most people don't havethe
Paul (26:05):
I think that's where actually, people talk about
people talk about AI a lot andthey talk about the impacts and
the jobs that are going to belost by it.
But I actually think that we'regoing to see a transition over
the coming years where Peoplewith more and more rare skill
sets that traditionally don'tlend themselves towards a
(26:27):
particular career likemarketing.
Can now get involved with itbecause AI is leveling the
playing field somewhat to enablethose people and democratizing
it, but is also allowing them tocombine their unique skillset,
which was traditionally not parfor the course and create new
(26:48):
concoctions and combinations ofskills that we've never seen
before, which is going to befascinating.
I think there's some real,there's some real positives to
take out of it.
And it's interesting what yousaid about the the messaging is.
I'm a big believer that youshouldn't be letting an AI write
your messages to go out toanywhere.
I, it does a terrible job, evenif you think it's better than
what you already write.
(27:08):
You're better off writing whatyou know, than letting the AI
write it for you.
At the very least, put your ownspin over the top of it, if
you're going to do it, right?
Paul 2 (27:16):
so yeah I sent out an automated message the other day.
It was, Written by me, and I'm abig advocate of don't let
chatGPT write your messages foryou, right?
Like it should never be don't doit.
Just don't do it.
But that being said, it's quitegood for getting ideas and
creating the basics, but putyour own spin on the top of it,
please.
I write mine by hand.
I can't de chatGPT it enough.
(27:37):
I still hear it in my head, andI sent out this message to
people who I've met over thelast six months or so.
Connected with them on LinkedIn,but I haven't really had much to
do with them and I just sent itout.
I was like, look, I'm gonna callout.
This is an automated message.
It is a human here.
I'm just trying to see who'sactually interested to have a
conversation, who's interestedin networking, who might be
interested in my content?
(27:58):
Here's what my content does.
It's on my profile.
I don't need to send you it.
It's there.
You can go and have a lookyourself if you're this sort of
person or this sort of personmight be interesting.
If you are interested, I'll do aweekly newsletter, I'm not going
to send you the link, unless youask for it.
If you ask for it, I will sendyou it.
I ran this for about threehours, and sent it to a bunch of
(28:19):
people.
And one of the first people thatcame back to me said What, and
this isn't spammy?
I was like no, cause to spamsomeone, I have to send
Adrian (28:27):
Yeah, like 20 of
Paul 2 (28:30):
message, I'm not selling anything, I'm just, Being a
human.
So I was quite deflated by thispoint.
And then about two hours later,I checked back in and I had four
messages.
I kid you not, four messages.
And every single one of themsaid a variation of, wow, I love
the humanity in this message.
And this is easily the mosthuman automated message I've
(28:50):
ever had.
Thank you so much.
Let's connect.
Let's grab a chat.
So to caveat what you said,automate your messaging if
you're not selling things.
But if you're selling something,we have that built in.
We absolutely have that builtin.
Adrian (29:05):
we have a built in like block to that.
And don't, yeah, like I said,don't get me wrong.
It's not that LinkedIn outreachdoesn't work.
It does, but it has to be theright way.
Also, you have something you'reoffering that, what your quote
unquote selling is somethingthat appeals to the, It's
something that my brain goes,Ooh, do I want to be on a
podcast?
Of course I do.
I want to, whatever.
So that's not everything thatyou guys work with, but it is
(29:27):
still a, something that isappealing.
It's a gift.
You're giving them a gift, thensaying, let's talk, so that
makes more sense.
I can't tell you how many I get,which is like.
We have a solution for yourautomation.
I don't have any automationproblems.
I don't have no automation.
So it's whatever it is that theyhave a solution for it.
It's definitely AI.
Paul 2 (29:45):
selling me a challenge that I haven't even diagnosed I
have.
So why would I care?
Adrian (29:50):
Yeah.
Paul 2 (29:50):
Yeah.
absolutely.
Absolutely.
Adrian, it has been an absolutepleasure speaking to you despite
the technical challenges thatwe've had during and before and
after the episode, but I've nodoubt fingers crossed this
episode goes live cause I reallylove the genuine nature of the
episode that we've recorded, butthank you so much for being a
fantastic guest on the show.
If people have enjoyed theepisode, how can they find out
(30:12):
more?
Adrian (30:13):
Oh they can go to goodsaltlife.
com and check out our company.
There'll be some informationthere.
If they want to learn just aboutme for some crazy reason, they
can find me on LinkedIn just putmy name in the search and you'll
find me.
Paul 2 (30:26):
Perfect.
And I'll make sure those linksare in the show notes as well.
So if anybody wants to do a bitmore research, you can.
And thank you, watchers,listeners, viewers along at
home.
Thank you for making the showwhat it is.
We don't do this if it's not foryou.
I'm pleased that so many of youreaching out and letting us know
that you've had some goodexperiences as a result of
watching the show.
If you've got any ideas forguests who might be a good fit
(30:48):
for the show, or you want us tocover some specific topics, you
want us to interview specificInfluencers or heroes in certain
areas that are more than happyto line those up.
Drop me a line Let me know and Iwill see you next week.
Thank you.
Bye.
Bye
Hello and welcome to this week's episode of MarketPulse
(00:04):
pros and pioneers.
I have to stutter every time Isay that because I have two or
three different shows for two orthree different reasons and I
work with clients and every weekI come to record and I go, good
evening.
And my mind's going, yeah, getthe show right.
Get the show, do get it right,but it takes this is good.
This week I want to welcome tothe show, Adrian Fulle.
(00:25):
Adrian is the president and CEOat Good Salt Life where he
merges the fantastic backgroundin Hollywood storytelling with
strategic market and experience.
So over 20 years inentertainment, working with top
brands and celebrities, andAdrian was telling me some
fabulous stories before theepisode started about some names
(00:45):
and people that he's workedwith.
But interestingly, That wasn'twhere Adrian wanted to be.
So he made a career shift, aquite a bold one at that, at the
age of 40, moving from LosAngeles to Denver, and then
transitioning into marketing.
And I can, I know a few peoplehave made similar moves.
I totally understand why thatwould happen.
(01:06):
I'm going to try and share thatwith the audience today as we're
going along so where Adrian isunique is that his approach
combines narrative techniques.
With data and neuroscience and Ithink it's so so powerful that
most people don't ever get closeto understanding it.
And he helps businesses tocreate impactful brand stories
(01:26):
and then successful businessstrategies on the back of that.
Adrian, thank you so much forcoming along, being a guest on
the show.
It's a pleasure to have you on.
Adrian (01:34):
Thank you.
It's been a great pleasure to beon, Paul.
Appreciate it.
Paul (01:36):
Fantastic.
First up.
I know the audience are going towant to hear this because
they've already pricked theirears up.
20 years in Hollywood.
Wow.
You must have some outrageousstories to tell, right?
Adrian (01:48):
I definitely have some that I won't repeat on this
podcast, but I started mycareer.
I was passionate about tellingstories in the theatrical medium
or the film medium.
I wanted to make movies and Iwas from Chicago and I went to
film school in Chicago.
And right out of film school, Igot a lucky break with the
director and writer from the1980s, all the big movies in the
(02:10):
80s, his name was John Hughes,some of your audience may have
heard of him, but he did, FerrisBueller's Day Off and Baby's Day
Out and Sixteen Candles and, allthe big ones that influenced me
as a young man growing up inIllinois.
And so I got a job working forhim.
He became my mentor on thewriting side, and I entered into
the entertainment business as awriter.
First, I had a screenplay thatwas picked up by a producer, an
(02:34):
independent film producer, andby the age of 23, I was off
making my first movie.
It was pretty exciting.
Ultimately, over time, thatevolved.
I moved to Los Angeles after twoor three films having made two
or three films in Illinois.
And and that evolved over time,over 20 years in Los Angeles, I
became a producer ultimatelybecause I learned that I was a
good storyteller, but I wasn't agreat, like the top of the line
(02:55):
filmmaker.
So I said, all right I'm goingto go learn from some other
filmmakers, I'll go produce forthem cause I know how to
produce.
You had to learn that in filmschool.
So I started producing and thatjust became a business.
Next thing I know, I'm, we'remaking commercials and music
videos and marketing content forbrands like Red Bull and
Paramount Pictures and WarnerBrothers and all the big
(03:16):
studios.
And it was quite a ride.
Variety Magazine, which is theBible of of the entertainment
industry, one day called andsaid, we're looking for someone
to come build our contentstudio.
Would you want to do that?
And so that was my first sortof, Minor career shift.
And that of course led me intothe circles of all those
celebrities and those crazystories.
And, got to interview AngelinaJolie, got to hang out with
(03:38):
Robert Pattinson, got to, dovideo content for Madonna, Lady
Gaga.
You name it.
It's just nuts how many.
Celebrities I was able to meet.
But the one thing I learnedthrough all of that, Paul, was
that that thing that we all wentinto the business for, that
passion to tell stories for mostof us, and I have to look in the
mirror and look back and say, itprobably was for me too,
(03:59):
although I always denied it.
There really was that drive forfame and fortune.
And slowly over time I got olderand I was no longer the young,
cool guy in the room about allthe meetings.
I was the oldest guy with notthe cool ideas anymore.
And I didn't have that passionanymore.
I didn't have that desire forwhatever it was I was searching
for by going into that businessin the first place and was
(04:22):
getting depressed.
And my wife said look, ifthere's no passion.
And it's just a job.
And if it's just a job, there'sa lot of jobs where you're not
working nights and weekends, andyou can see your kid grow up and
that kind of thing.
So I decided at 42 years old, Ithink I was, or forget the age,
my early forties to make acareer shift.
And I got to tell you, man, it'sbeen the best thing ever to
happen to me, but also thescariest thing I did at that
(04:43):
time in my life.
Cause it's hard.
It's hard to leave a network of20 years of work and completely
change everything and have nonew network and safety net or
anything like
Paul (04:53):
And I think that is the story of Many founders of their
own businesses, perhaps withoutthe magnification of what was
Hollywood, right?
So I think if I, even if Ireflect on my own journey, there
was a crucible that I wentthrough, which was retail for
me.
There's Hollywood for you,retail for me, but ultimately
(05:14):
it's the same thing, right?
It is, it all boils down to thesame thing.
We set out in the world to makea difference.
We get an opportunity, we domake a difference to an extent,
and then we realise that there'slimitations.
That role, that job, that careerisn't built on the things that
we enjoy doing.
And I think as you get older,you start to get closer to your
(05:35):
why.
Your, what gets me out of bed inthe morning?
And it's not the career.
It's not money, it's not, allthose things are nice, no doubt
and I know, I've no doubt thereare people out there who have
money who are perfectly happywith what they're doing and how
they got away.
I know a lot of people who havemoney who aren't, are still
looking for that next big thing,that next dopamine hit, that
(05:58):
next endorphin rush.
And.
I think what you've describedthere is that exact thing?
Like you, you got to that point,you realized it was something
more and you've chased that andhats off to your point, exactly
20 year career and a networkbuilt around that to then give
that up and do something else.
I can imagine that really wasscary.
(06:19):
Was it the right choice?
Adrian (06:20):
it was the right choice.
I got to tell you that many ofthe, I'm not going to name
names.
That's not fair.
But many of the celebrities thatI worked with and met were
miserable.
And I was just shocked becausesome of them were my idols.
Like I would walk into the roomand I couldn't believe I'm
standing there with so and andand they're talking to me like
an equal and I'm a human beingand they're just a human being
and we're getting along aspeople that, that was stunning,
(06:41):
but at the same time, you startto see that they're not happy.
And I want to scream at the topof my lungs, but you got what
everybody wants.
You've got the fame and fortune.
Why, how could you not be happy?
And I think not until I madethat shift and we moved to
Colorado and I went intomarketing, did we realize that I
realized that happiness doesn'tcome from those things.
It's the old story.
(07:01):
We've heard it a million times,but it doesn't come from that
money.
It doesn't come from achieving acareer goal.
It comes from somewhere else.
And and we're much happier nowwith a better quality of life,
for example, than working 24, 7,but having a status, I walked
down the street.
Nobody cares what I do.
They don't recognize me.
I'm just the bald guy from downthe street, and but in L.
(07:22):
A.
And we live You know, you reallywanted people to see you.
They wanted people to come up toyou and say, Hey, I know so and
so who knows you, you worked onthis project, whatever.
That feeling is like a, gettinga like on Facebook or Instagram,
hard, it's like a, that dopaminehit.
It doesn't last forever.
And quite frankly, when youdeplete your dopamine, what
happens?
You get depressed.
(07:43):
And so now I see a whole.
Industry of people that aredepressed and unhappy and
they're on medications to becomehappy, to get over depression.
But when reality is the thingthat they're doing is making
them unhappy.
The thing that they thoughtwould make them happy is
actually making them unhappy.
So that's my experience.
Not everyone, like we talkedabout in the brief, some people
are very happy at that world.
(08:03):
And I did meet a few celebritiesthat were very happy with their
lives.
Paul (08:07):
I think there are a couple of things that probably feed
into that situation that I've,through conversations that I've
had on the podcast,conversations I have with my
network, and there are twothings that seem to keep
recurring is first thing is wetend to, and this is a sidetrack
slightly from the purpose of thepodcast, right?
But let's go with it.
First off We raise our childrento talk about what career they
(08:32):
want to have, what job they wantto have, to dream to have an
amazing job in the eyes of asix, seven, eight year old that
doesn't see the baggage thatcomes with those jobs or the
long hours that are required tobe good at that job or whatever,
rather than training ourchildren to identify what makes
(08:53):
them happy.
So we ask our kids, what do youwant to be when we should be
asking them, Why do you want todo what you want to do?
What makes you happy in life?
How can we help you do more ofthat?
And I'm, I always struggled toidentify a career path.
Like my, my, my seniorleadership would be like, so
what do you want to do in 10years time?
Where do you want to be?
What role do you want to have?
I'm like, I don't know.
(09:14):
I just want to do more of thethings that make me happy.
And I can't tell you what thatis right now because it changes
over time.
So let's just see where it getsto.
I'm not going to worry about it.
Adrian (09:24):
I'm just going to double click on that.
I made a conscious decision tonot define myself by my career.
That was part of the careerchange was to say, I don't
introduce myself as a filmproducer anymore.
I am just Adrian.
My wife's from Italy.
And I remember when we werefirst dating, I met her Italian
family and I asked her fatherand the cousins.
The first question I had for allof them was like, Oh, what do
(09:45):
you do for a living?
Cause it's so important to us.
in the And they were shocked andthey were offended.
They're like, why is he askingus what we do for a living?
That's not who we are.
We're just, anyway, I was
Paul (09:55):
Don't ask about the family business! But then I think the
other thing is likeneurodiversity, right?
I talk about it a lot to a lotof people and I do think that
there are Extremes of oursociety that are driven by a
poor understanding when we wereyounger, which is probably now
being remedied somewhat.
But when I was a kid in the1980s, nobody, you couldn't
(10:17):
choose to be ADHD, right?
It wasn't a thing that you couldhave, right?
So you were either a kid thatmisbehaved, Or hard to work with
kid or a disruptive child.
And we, satisfaction levels areset up here compared to your
average neurotypical personhaving a satisfaction level down
here.
And I do wonder, like as muchwith prisons as with.
(10:40):
Like actors and celebrities,they chase that endorphin rush
and dopamine hit.
And part of me wonders like howmany celebrities would be ADHD
or neurodiverse and have chasedthat dopamine hit to get to that
level and have to keep hittingthat.
And that is tiring.
When you do get that hit, it'stiring still.
There's a lot of pressure onyour body.
(11:02):
Does that then contribute asmuch their side as it does to
the people who've ended up inprison because they've become
substance abuse and alcoholabuse because they're chasing
the dopamine and endorphin rush?
That's totally outside the scopeof this episode, but I do it
was, part of me wonders whatwe're going to see in 40 years
time when my son grows up in anera where we accept
(11:22):
neurodiversity and we helppeople, deal with it properly,
as opposed to just tellingyou're a naughty kid.
Adrian (11:28):
I think we'll find that as we accept it and we deal with
it properly, society will startto move away from the idea that
fame is an important thing.
Most people don't have any levelof fame.
They don't walk down the streetor go to a restaurant, for
example, and people walk up tothem.
I'll never forget, I was in arestaurant with Billy Bob
Thornton, the actor, and peoplewould, lined up.
(11:50):
A single file line while we wereeating dinner to say hi and how
much they love his acting andhis work.
Now, imagine if you're seekingthat dopamine hit, and then
you're like, okay, I'm done.
I'm depleted.
I'm going to go out and havedinner.
And then suddenly you're gettinghit constantly with more with
that you're not even trying for.
That's celebrity.
That's just, it's justimpossible to go anywhere or do
(12:11):
anything without that attack of,on your brain dopamine.
It's just crazy.
Paul (12:15):
Let's, it's a marketing podcast, I want to move let's
tear ourselves away from that,cause it's probably a whole
other episode on its own asfascinating as it is.
Hollywood storytellingtechniques combined with good
salt life.
So how do you apply those sametechniques and principles that
you learned back in the day in amarketing angle now?
Adrian (12:34):
There's several ways to do it, but I think the one I'll
focus on for today's podcast isstructure.
So when we think about thestorytelling, the structure of
storytelling in Hollywood, let'ssay it's a movie.
People typically think of movieswhen they think of structure as
three acts.
You have a beginning, the middleand end.
Usually the middle is thelongest act.
The third act is the recall ofthe first, first act.
(12:56):
And it's answering the questionsthat come up in the first act
and resolving the problems,right?
But really what Hollywood moviesand also television television
is technically five acts, butthese are all 12 act structures.
And what I mean by that isthey're all part of the hero's
journey, which is a structurethat was discovered by Joseph
Campbell.
For those who probably,everyone's probably heard of
(13:18):
Joseph Campbell by now, but.
Deep diving deep intomythologies and not just Joseph
Campbell, some people thatpreceded him as well.
And they discovered thatthroughout history.
From the ancient times to now,there is this sort of prevailing
structure around how humans tellstories, and he called it, he
dubbed it the hero's journey,and it's a 12 act structure that
your most popular movies andbooks and everything adhere to,
(13:40):
whether the authors or writersknew what they were doing or
not.
That 12 act structure is acircle.
The hero starts.
Going about his or her dailynormal routine and something
pulls them into this journey andthen they go along this whole
journey all the way down to theabyss where they have to defeat
the monster or the dragon orwhat have you and then come back
changed and then they're a newperson at the end of the story.
(14:03):
That same structure is also, itturns out, and this is where I
immediately connected when Ientered the marketing world with
oh, I already know this stuff tosome degree.
It connects with, it's the sameas the customer journey the
customer journey is the hero'sjourney.
It's just five accents insteadof 12.
So that, the first place tostart, and how you tell stories
in Hollywood is basically thesame way you're gonna tell
(14:25):
stories in marketing, it's alittle truncated, but it's
basically the same.
And the key here is.
In marketing, it's more of aninteractive story.
It's not passive.
So as a brand, a product, aservice, whatever you're
selling, essentially, you haveto understand where you come in
that customer's journey.
So thinking about from thehero's journey example are you
(14:48):
the wise old wizard Gandalfwho's going to lead the hobbits
on this journey and hold theirhand the whole way?
Are you Obi Wan Kenobi leadingLuke Skywalker on the whole,
journey?
Or are you just selling thesword or the lightsaber that
they're going to need?
To defeat Darth Vader or thedragon Smaug, So you have to
understand where your product,your service, your brand comes
(15:09):
in on their journey, and thendrill down on that.
So understanding the customerjourney is the first thing you
have to know as a marketer andobviously understanding your
customers is the first thing youhave to know, but the second is
their journey and the structureof that journey and how you
structure your marketing contentis very similar to what we did
in Hollywood storytelling.
Paul (15:27):
that is Easily the best analogy that we've had on the
show for a customer journey.
I love it.
I love it I want to be and nowthat you've said it I really
want to be or be one There is nodoubt about it.
Adrian (15:40):
Yeah, me too.
Paul (15:41):
But then to take that one step further, you also combine
elements of understanding dataand neuroscience with that as
well.
So where does that sit in thatcustomer journey?
Adrian (15:49):
Now we're going down that rabbit hole, man.
Here we go.
So let's say that the customeris going along in their life and
everything is normal and theyare going to fall into this
journey, right?
There's two ways it happens.
They either are forced into thejourney.
In our business, at Good SaltLife, we manufacture clean
living products, disinfectants,cleaners, things for your home,
(16:11):
your house, your skin, etcetera.
During COVID.
Everybody was forced into thatjourney.
They needed to startdisinfecting.
We had to wipe our hands, washour hands.
We had to wash our food,everything.
That's one way to get into thejourney.
The other way is to be pulledinto the journey by someone like
the wizard who pulls you intothat journey.
And so if you think about LukeSkywalker, he wasn't going to
take the journey with Obi Wan.
(16:33):
But then his aunt and uncle hismeans of life were murdered and
he had no choice.
And then he learns along the wayhe has this destiny and he comes
from a long lineage of Jedi's,et cetera.
So thinking about the customer,what causes them to go on the
journey?
And that goes all the way backto basically brain science.
And this is where it gets deep.
And this is where I've beenfocused on the last two years of
(16:55):
my life because I just love itso much.
It's something that I initiallylearned at Stanford's graduate
school of business and a programI was in there.
And then really it gotsupercharged by a guy named Rob
Duboff.
He's a professor at Harvard.
I was at Harvard and graduatedrecently with a master's.
And Rob teaches a strategicdecision making class that
(17:17):
utilizes a book by the authorDaniel Kahneman called Thinking
Fast and Slow.
And it's all about how the
Paul (17:24):
is a dry book
Adrian (17:25):
and it's all about how you.
Yeah, it's a great, yeah, it's agreat, it's a great read.
And it's the first half is hardbecause it's all really detailed
about how the brain works.
But when you get intounderstanding that there's two
systems in the brain and thefirst system is a system, one
they call it is your, isbasically your autonomy, like
it's 90, it makes 90 percent ofthe decisions for you and you
(17:47):
don't even know you're makingdecisions, and it's your
mammalian part of your brain,it's your gut feeling, it's your
fight or flight reaction, it'sthose things that you just.
Can't describe.
System two is your dataprocessing system.
And so it, it then comes insecondarily and looks at what
you're trying to make a decisionon and thinks through the data.
So when you're thinking aboutthe customer journey and you're
(18:09):
like what's going to cause themto go on this journey?
A lot of it is a decision thatthey have to make.
And so understanding how theirbrain works to make that
decision will then tell you as amarketer, how do I appeal to
that to those brain systems tocause them to click, engage,
call, go to the, whatever theaction is you're trying to get
them to take.
And so what it turns out is youhave to appeal to their
(18:30):
emotional side first and thenbring in the data.
So marketers who lead with data,our product is nine times better
than blah, blah, blah, or 15times faster.
The brain doesn't, It doesn'twant to, it ignores that because
you haven't appealed to thememotionally first.
You have to connect thememotionally for the system one
to work and then it'll go tosystem two.
(18:51):
You bring in data secondarily.
So once I understood that, thatchanged the game for how we
create content, how we createour messaging.
In some cases, maybe we don'teven get to system two because
it's not necessary.
So on and so forth.
So I think that's in the zone ofwhat you're asking, but
Paul (19:06):
It's again, it's a, whole episode on its own, right?
Like it's a whole series on itsown not just an episode.
And I've got a deep love forbehavioral science specifically
because it's just, it influenceseverything that we do.
Yeah, I think there's so muchpower with behavioral science
that if you're not payingattention to even the principles
(19:28):
of it, you're missing out on somuch power.
But as I was saying to somebodythat I was networking with
earlier on, he was a behavioralscientist.
It's a slippery slope for thedark side of behavioral science
too, right?
There's a big ethical concernaround it, and you've got to be
careful to stay on theinfluencing positively as
opposed to manipulatingnegatively, and It's definitely
(19:51):
something that I would encouragebusiness owners to look into,
but if you're gonna do it, workwith an expert or Get really
deep in the knowledge becausethere are so many unintended,
and I think that's the power ofit, is the unintended
consequences of any onebehavioral science principle
this
Adrian (20:11):
I'll never forget.
There was an election years ago.
It was John McCain in Americawas running for president
against Barack Obama, and therewas all these ads about how
Barack Obama was a terrorist andall these crazy, stupid things,
and they were running those adsto change.
I'm not changing behavior, butto influence the John McCain's
(20:31):
audience to vote for John overBarack Obama.
And I'll never forget there wasa, an engagement where John is
speaking to a large audience andthen it got to the Q& A and some
guy raises his hands and hesays, what are we going to do?
Barack Obama is a terrorist.
He can't be elected presidentbecause then all the terrorists
are going to take over Americaand it was just mayhem.
And you could see in JohnMcCain's face was like, oops.
(20:54):
We went a little too far withour ads because this guy
actually
Paul (20:57):
be where we are.
Adrian (20:59):
No, man, it's crazy.
Yeah.
Taking Pollock, like the sidesout of it, just the idea that
you're going to be influencepeople's behaviors, influence
their decisions and their minds.
It's like you said, it's, becareful with that kind of power
because it's not hard to do.
It's happening all the time fromall around us.
One of the things I don't knowwhen I get into this, one of the
(21:20):
things I've started going, likeI started going deeper than
behavior and into physiology andbiology and looking at how like
we create marketing assets,video content, picture content,
text, whatever it is.
And the person that we'reselling to has to perceive that
asset.
So there, there's a perception.
I learned recently, I didn'tknow this.
(21:40):
There is no perception thathappens that isn't preceded by
an action, which I didn't know.
So that means if I'm looking atthis marketing picture.
I'm not passively looking at it.
There are all these physicalactions that are happening at
the same time and that happenedbefore I looked at it and are
going to happen after.
For example, your eyeballs arealways moving, right?
(22:00):
If they stop moving, even thoughyou don't feel it, if they stop
moving, you can't see thepicture.
Everything goes out of focus.
Understanding that there arethese physiology, physiological
activities within your body.
That are happening as youperceive something, how can we,
this sounds crazy, but how canwe leverage that information and
that knowledge to then get agreater click through rate or
(22:23):
whatever that action is that wewant the audience to take?
How do we, maybe that those 40.
Physiological actions that arehappening before they click,
maybe there's a way we canleverage that with the image
that we show will lead to moreclicks.
I don't know.
It gets a little scary and talkabout power, then you get really
crazy, but that's where I'mgoing down that rabbit hole
these days.
Paul (22:42):
But it's fascinating, right?
And it's clear that you're superpassionate about it.
And going back to what we weretalking about before, you're
chasing that passion, which isfantastic to see.
Because there are so manypeople, I don't have a problem
with corporations, right?
Like corporations are what theyare and corporate life is, it's
great for some people and it'snot great for other people.
And I had to get out because itwasn't fulfilling me.
(23:05):
And now that I'm doing what I'mdoing, I feel the difference.
And I wish I'd gotten outearlier.
But I know that I needed to gothrough it to get where I am
now.
So I don't regret do, but Idon't regret anything.
But I just wish I'd done thingsquicker.
But it's fantastic to meetsomebody who's.
Like you've got that selfawareness that you needed to do
(23:26):
something different.
You're brave enough to take thatstep.
And I think there'd probably bea lot of people in the audience
who watching the episode, whonodding along going, yeah, I've
been through that.
Like I'm there now or whatever.
So take this the way it's meantto be.
I guess then bringing it back tothe.
Marketing a little bit more aswell is, we ask all our guests
(23:47):
and with your unique perspectiveon this, I'm interested to see
where this might go is what isone marketing practice or
strategy or tactic that you wishbusiness owners would just stop
using?
Maybe it's outdated, maybe itnever worked, maybe it's claimed
to work and doesn't what is itthat you see just grinds your
gears?
Adrian (24:06):
It's funny you say that because I was promoted to the
CEO position a few months back.
And as soon as I was, myLinkedIn just blew up with AI
written, messages.
So I wish they would stop that.
That'd be one thing.
Cause I don't know that bringsany ROI.
I, there was a company here inColorado we use that did bring
us some ROI with a LinkedInoutreach campaign.
But in general, they, I don'tthink those work.
(24:28):
And and also that's that it'sthat tactic of throw.
Stuff against the wall and seewhat sticks.
And you can feel that in themessage when it comes through.
Oh, AI wrote this.
The person didn't even reviewit.
And the script went out and intwo days, I'm going to get the
next one.
And I already know what it'sgoing to say.
Cause I got 50 of themyesterday.
It's getting saturated.
So that's one thing I thinkthese LinkedIn outreach
(24:49):
campaigns, but in general, Ithink I think that we still have
a lot.
So I think a lot of marketingprofessionals are specialists.
And they have a great career outof specializing in digital
marketing, SEO, whatever it is,right?
And I think I would love to seemore marketing people become, at
(25:11):
least partially becomegeneralists, understand the
greater business.
I've worked and built marketingteams where they.
A lot of folks be brilliant atwhat they do.
They never understood the largerbusiness.
How does the larger businessmake money?
What is our larger business?
And do I actually align withthat in my values and what have
you?
And that's, they're really hyperfocused on that one lever that
(25:31):
they pull, which I understand.
It makes them money and theyhave, they can survive and have
a family and whatever.
But I think having just more ofan open mindset and thinking
larger is something I'd like tosee more.
So it's not something I want tosay, it's That marketers should
stop doing, but I think thatexpanding their vision of the
business and of the marketingdiscipline and, like what you
(25:53):
and I've done, maybe not make acareer change, but dive into
something you don't knowanything about and be willing to
say, I know, raise your hand.
I know nothing about this.
I want to learn.
I think most people don't havethe
Paul (26:05):
I think that's where actually, people talk about
people talk about AI a lot andthey talk about the impacts and
the jobs that are going to belost by it.
But I actually think that we'regoing to see a transition over
the coming years where Peoplewith more and more rare skill
sets that traditionally don'tlend themselves towards a
(26:27):
particular career likemarketing.
Can now get involved with itbecause AI is leveling the
playing field somewhat to enablethose people and democratizing
it, but is also allowing them tocombine their unique skillset,
which was traditionally not parfor the course and create new
(26:48):
concoctions and combinations ofskills that we've never seen
before, which is going to befascinating.
I think there's some real,there's some real positives to
take out of it.
And it's interesting what yousaid about the the messaging is.
I'm a big believer that youshouldn't be letting an AI write
your messages to go out toanywhere.
I, it does a terrible job, evenif you think it's better than
what you already write.
(27:08):
You're better off writing whatyou know, than letting the AI
write it for you.
At the very least, put your ownspin over the top of it, if
you're going to do it, right?
Paul 2 (27:16):
so yeah I sent out an automated message the other day.
It was, Written by me, and I'm abig advocate of don't let
chatGPT write your messages foryou, right?
Like it should never be don't doit.
Just don't do it.
But that being said, it's quitegood for getting ideas and
creating the basics, but putyour own spin on the top of it,
please.
I write mine by hand.
I can't de chatGPT it enough.
(27:37):
I still hear it in my head, andI sent out this message to
people who I've met over thelast six months or so.
Connected with them on LinkedIn,but I haven't really had much to
do with them and I just sent itout.
I was like, look, I'm gonna callout.
This is an automated message.
It is a human here.
I'm just trying to see who'sactually interested to have a
conversation, who's interestedin networking, who might be
interested in my content?
(27:58):
Here's what my content does.
It's on my profile.
I don't need to send you it.
It's there.
You can go and have a lookyourself if you're this sort of
person or this sort of personmight be interesting.
If you are interested, I'll do aweekly newsletter, I'm not going
to send you the link, unless youask for it.
If you ask for it, I will sendyou it.
I ran this for about threehours, and sent it to a bunch of
(28:19):
people.
And one of the first people thatcame back to me said What, and
this isn't spammy?
I was like no, cause to spamsomeone, I have to send
Adrian (28:27):
Yeah, like 20 of
Paul 2 (28:30):
message, I'm not selling anything, I'm just, Being a
human.
So I was quite deflated by thispoint.
And then about two hours later,I checked back in and I had four
messages.
I kid you not, four messages.
And every single one of themsaid a variation of, wow, I love
the humanity in this message.
And this is easily the mosthuman automated message I've
(28:50):
ever had.
Thank you so much.
Let's connect.
Let's grab a chat.
So to caveat what you said,automate your messaging if
you're not selling things.
But if you're selling something,we have that built in.
We absolutely have that builtin.
Adrian (29:05):
we have a built in like block to that.
And don't, yeah, like I said,don't get me wrong.
It's not that LinkedIn outreachdoesn't work.
It does, but it has to be theright way.
Also, you have something you'reoffering that, what your quote
unquote selling is somethingthat appeals to the, It's
something that my brain goes,Ooh, do I want to be on a
podcast?
Of course I do.
I want to, whatever.
So that's not everything thatyou guys work with, but it is
(29:27):
still a, something that isappealing.
It's a gift.
You're giving them a gift, thensaying, let's talk, so that
makes more sense.
I can't tell you how many I get,which is like.
We have a solution for yourautomation.
I don't have any automationproblems.
I don't have no automation.
So it's whatever it is that theyhave a solution for it.
It's definitely AI.
Paul 2 (29:45):
selling me a challenge that I haven't even diagnosed I
have.
So why would I care?
Adrian (29:50):
Yeah.
Paul 2 (29:50):
Yeah.
absolutely.
Absolutely.
Adrian, it has been an absolutepleasure speaking to you despite
the technical challenges thatwe've had during and before and
after the episode, but I've nodoubt fingers crossed this
episode goes live cause I reallylove the genuine nature of the
episode that we've recorded, butthank you so much for being a
fantastic guest on the show.
If people have enjoyed theepisode, how can they find out
(30:12):
more?
Adrian (30:13):
Oh they can go to goodsaltlife.
com and check out our company.
There'll be some informationthere.
If they want to learn just aboutme for some crazy reason, they
can find me on LinkedIn just putmy name in the search and you'll
find me.
Paul 2 (30:26):
Perfect.
And I'll make sure those linksare in the show notes as well.
So if anybody wants to do a bitmore research, you can.
And thank you, watchers,listeners, viewers along at
home.
Thank you for making the showwhat it is.
We don't do this if it's not foryou.
I'm pleased that so many of youreaching out and letting us know
that you've had some goodexperiences as a result of
watching the show.
If you've got any ideas forguests who might be a good fit
(30:48):
for the show, or you want us tocover some specific topics, you
want us to interview specificInfluencers or heroes in certain
areas that are more than happyto line those up.
Drop me a line Let me know and Iwill see you next week.
Thank you.
Bye.
Bye
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