Game Changers: The Athletes Who Redefined Taekwondo

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
to the warehouse 15.
We were just cutting off MasterMoreno, coach Moreno, he was
going to say something probablyslightly inappropriate, which
brings us to rule number one.

Speaker 2 (00:34):
Sorry, not sorry.

Speaker 3 (00:35):
So if you're listening and we offend you,
sorry, not sorry.
How is everybody doing today?
What's going on, mr TJ Coach?
What's going on?

Speaker 1 (00:44):
What's up, sir?
Chilling, chilling.
I just got back from traveling.
This past weekend I was indon't butch me, I think it's
Queretero.
I always mess that word upQueretero, mexico.

Speaker 2 (00:52):
Queretero.

Speaker 1 (00:54):
Queretero, queretero, queretero, mexico.

Speaker 2 (00:59):
You sound like you're Asian Queretero the letters are
going to come in now.

Speaker 3 (01:06):
The letters are going to come in now.

Speaker 1 (01:08):
I was there for the under 22 finals, for the Pan Ams
and a junior Pan Amchampionship and cadet Pan Am
championship.
Happy to be home, get a littlerest, keep moving, keep training
, can I?

Speaker 3 (01:18):
ask one question now.
Yes, sir, why?
I just noticed that there arecertain people, you know, like
certain backgrounds.
They always have velvetpaintings of dogs or lions on
their wall Velvet.
Velvet paintings of dogs orlions.

Speaker 2 (01:33):
That's not you.
I got the Virgin Maria yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:35):
I see a lion over there and there's a yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:39):
Batman.

Speaker 3 (01:41):
Was that.
Did you get that from Costco orwas that at a?
Oh, dang Dang was that did youget that from costco, or was
that?

Speaker 1 (01:47):
at uh, he must, he must, he must have missed me, I
think, episode one.
He said he liked it.
I know he told me before we goton air how much he liked I do,
I that's my pain, I gotta getone I go crazy coach moreno,
what's going on?

Speaker 2 (02:03):
I'm good I got to show my shirt today.
Boy, what's up?

Speaker 3 (02:07):
What's up?
What's up, man, man, my kidsdon't love me, everything's good
man, I miss you guys.

Speaker 2 (02:11):
I traveled last weekend.
Where was I last weekend, jeez,I forgot when was I.
I forgot, I forgot where I wasat last weekend.
Jeez, can't think, and anyway.

Speaker 3 (02:22):
Getting old.
Oh, I was in New York, ah.

Speaker 2 (02:24):
I couldn't, I was in New York.
Yeah, I was upstate New Yorkwith my coach, tim Toco.
I know you guys were in Mexico.
I heard all about it, I watcheda lot of matches, but yeah, I
think we should get into ittoday and I think we got a
couple of cool topics, so it'llbe fun.

Speaker 3 (02:38):
Well, that's why you couldn't remember Upstate New
York, that's not New York.
New York City is New.

Speaker 2 (02:42):
York.
I'm going to New York City endof the month.

Speaker 3 (02:50):
There you go.
That's New York.
Well, listen, I wanted to saythank you.
I got a nice letter from MikeDillard from Century and he said
he wouldn't be raising priceseven despite the tariff
increases, and also James Kimfrom Muto, so I won't mention
the other company, but I knowyou guys like that other company
.
They've already raised theirpricings.
I won't talk about Tusa.
Oh, did I say it out loud?

(03:11):
But that's no surprise, becausethere's no loyalty to that
company.

Speaker 2 (03:15):
You don't know if they raised their prices.
Man, Leave that man alone.

Speaker 3 (03:18):
Oh, I'm sorry.
Did I mention his son Kong?
Did I mention his name?
Did I mention his name?
I apologize.
We love all our sponsors andonce again, thank you to the
Budo Brothers for sending me abunch of cool stuff.
And TJ, don't worry, we'regoing to be calling.
We're checking with Target tosee if they can get you some
stuff.

Speaker 1 (03:37):
If I get Target, I'm bigger than both of y'all.
Target would be crazy.
I'll try.
I think they have those lionpaintings on sale.

Speaker 3 (03:43):
I'll try it.
I think they have those lionpaintings on sale.
I'll see if I can get you.

Speaker 2 (03:48):
Should I go get one of my sponsors who just got me?
I don't want to do it becausethen Coach Perez will get mad at
me.

Speaker 3 (03:53):
What is it?
What's your sponsor?

Speaker 2 (03:54):
I'm not going to show you, because you'll be hating
on this certain vendor man.
So I'll leave this stuff alone.
He gave me some cool stuff.
I ain't going to lie guys.
He gave me some cool stuff.

Speaker 3 (04:02):
You know what I'm waiting for.
I'm waiting for that set ofKP&P so that I can test it out.
We just invested and bought theother ones, dato or whatever,
so that my kids can practice thefoot farting Taekwondo that
everybody else is doing.
So we invested in a bunch ofthose some ridiculous amount of
money.
And then I've heard that betteris KP&P.

(04:23):
But it's hard to tell betterbecause I haven't seen it and
how I don't use it.
So I'm hoping that better?

Speaker 2 (04:29):
I think, I think that well, I'm hoping that the fairy
godfathers or godmothers of kpnot getting into ourselves.
This is just random assquestion.
You got one store you can shopat yeah, forever.

Speaker 1 (04:41):
Rest of your life, forever Right now, not food,
just one store.

Speaker 2 (04:44):
What is it?

Speaker 1 (04:46):
Oh, like clothing or like everything.
Oh dude, it's still got to beTarget or Walmart, it's got to
be a department store.
That's a good one.
It has to be.
It has to have everythingTarget or Walmart is pretty good
.

Speaker 2 (04:58):
Actually I was saying Dick's Sporting Goods, you can
get clothes, you can getequipment and goods because you
can get clothes, you can getequipment, you can get fishing.
Not really food, though, no, no, I didn't say food, food is
different, food is different,like just for your life, like
everything you need.

Speaker 1 (05:11):
But you know walmart and, and that you know those are
obviously pretty good too,maybe like, maybe like uh,
what's that store?

Speaker 2 (05:16):
like rei or whatever, like the outdoor stores, yeah,
but like that you can't get like, I guess you know, because they
don't have like cool, like youcan get like Nike stuff.
I don't know, I don't know ifthey have that stuff.

Speaker 3 (05:26):
Anyway, well, I spend most of my life wild and naked,
so I just need food.
So we've got these high-endAndronicos or Piazzas and places
like that, because I like tocook and most times I cook, you
know, al natural.
So both in my food and both inclothing, so I don't need REI.

Speaker 2 (05:46):
I don't need any ropes.
I'm going to eat none of yourfood when you're cooking.

Speaker 3 (05:49):
I'm not tying anybody up.

Speaker 2 (05:51):
You guys all mentioned.

Speaker 3 (05:52):
Feel me on that one, hold on a second.
You guys both mentioned storeswhere you can buy shovels, ropes
, tape and things that you coulduse to dispose of dead bodies.
I have no interest in that.
And things that you could useto dispose of dead bodies.
I have no interest in that.
Rei I'd love to go to REI.
You get what do you call it?
Car binders?
You can get rope, you cannotask him a question.

Speaker 1 (06:13):
Do not give him a question.
This is what happens.

Speaker 2 (06:16):
Now we're about to tie people up.

Speaker 3 (06:17):
Okay, sorry, back to All right, we're back to.

Speaker 1 (06:22):
I heard there was a tournament All right, we're back
to.
I heard there was a tournament,or there's a tournament coming
up, or oh yeah, no, I was justat the well, it was the U22
finals and the junior and cadetPan Am championships, and I was
actually in the same venue lastyear.
I'm going to tell you this isprobably for me, this is the
worst venue I've ever seen in myentire life.

Speaker 3 (06:40):
Where was it?
Where was it?

Speaker 1 (06:42):
It's in Queretero.
Was that good Queretero?
Quero what Coach Maher help.

Speaker 3 (06:47):
Quero what.
God bless you, it was there.
God bless you, it was there.
Did you sneeze?
It was there.
Quero who it was there.
And like the whole thing.

Speaker 1 (06:55):
Think about this, think about this and maybe
you'll see the whole denarius isoutside in the heat under a
tent and it's like 90 degreesoutside.
Yeah, it's crazy, bro.
And I'm talking about, let'ssay, the seniors need to be
tough and strong.
This is for the cadets andjuniors I'm talking about.
Let's just start there.

(07:16):
And at one point these kidswere sitting directly in the sun
and then finally someone gotsmart and went and found a tent
to put over them.
There wasn't a tent at thebeginning not for not where they
were.
You know when they call you toyour before the pre-staging
there was.
There was just sitting on thesun for pre-staging.
And then I started making myguys just go sit under the tent,
on the, the big tent, untilthey went out, because it's just
stupid.

(07:37):
You know, the, the bath.
I'll say this how about this?
And it was better this year.
They took the bleachers, thebleachers.
There were no bleachers on theleft side last year and they
added those bleachers, so itgave one more section of seating
, so section section, and on theleft, but but even still man
just being outside all day, the,the, the.

(07:58):
At one point we had to stop inthe middle of matches because
the ambulance left to go takesomeone to the hospital or
something to stop in matchespartway through um.
They were at that point whereyou know how they don't hold
matches, that whole thing.
But like, my problem with thatwas then I get to a ring and I'm
waiting 12 to 15 minutes forthem to find that the match
paper to start my match.
So now, when I'm 15 minuteslate and now I get stuck over

(08:20):
here, now it's, you know, the tdwon't let us, you know it was
just.

Speaker 2 (08:24):
It was like it sounds like an organizational problem.
To be honest with you.
I mean the venue is bad outside.
I mean this, I don't, I don'tcare if you're adults or juniors
or cadets, you shouldn't beworking.
You know, warming up outside inthe sun.
I mean we've had some placeswhere they've made some
makeshift make shifts, tents andthey've had heat or AC in there
and it's actually it's notgreat, but they got mats on the

(08:46):
floor.
I mean it is what it is, butoutside like that that's kind of
rough.
In the sun that's kind of rough.

Speaker 1 (08:52):
And everything was crazy.
I mean, from the time we gotthere the organizational packet
that tells you where to go andwhere to be for all the events.
You get there and it tells youto go to the, the hotel.
No, go to the venue for thesecond day of registration.
You get to the venue, then theytell you it's at the hotel and
you get back to the hotel andthey tell you well, you got to
wait till they get to the venue.

(09:12):
So they have people taking uberrides back and forth in like 25
, 30 minute traffic trying tofigure out where to register.
How, how can coaches that havebeen doing this game for so long
be asking each other whereregistration is?
That's crazy and literallycan't find it.
Yeah, it's crazy.
Then they have the cadetsbehind the juniors and the
juniors are supposed to know towalk to the front of the line to
weigh in before the the.

(09:33):
The cadets were supposed toknow to weigh in before the
juniors.
You're talking about kids, so Igotta go out there and figure
out this was.
It was bad, it was overall bad,it was embarrassing.
It like is a, you know, talkingabout mockery.
It's a little bit of a mockeryof our sport like they don't
care, dude.
They literally don't care.
They have no answers the wholetime.
Everyone's irritated,everybody's hot.
You know I I commend all technopeople in that situation.
I think we're the only sportthat would actually put up with

(09:54):
this shit like it's stupid.
It's just pure pure stupidity.

Speaker 2 (09:59):
A couple of things.
That question, I mean.
Number one, I think, um, if notmistaken correct me if I'm
wrong they had a Poomsaetournament, under-22 tournament,
a cadet championship, a juniorchampionship, a cadet open and a
junior open all in the sametime, basically.

Speaker 1 (10:15):
Yeah, and even worse.
Like you talk about that fromlike taking the feeling of being
special away from the event youdid it.
Then you talk I'm walkingaround with like I wish I could
find these damn things.
I had three tags that I bought75 a pop to coach in the same
venue all weekend and not.
I don't think one person reallylooked at my badge and saw what
it said, whether it said under22 or panams or or whatever.

Speaker 2 (10:37):
All that shit like it's absurd, it's absurd, it's
absurd, you know it was not notcustomer friendly and that's
asking a lot from coaches.
Like you said, you're theircoach.
You already paid a coaching fee.
Now you've got to pay for adifferent coach's fee because on
Friday you coach an under-22,and on Saturday you're going to
coach cadets and then Sundayyou're going to coach in the
open when you're open you got.

Speaker 1 (11:00):
That's just.
Some of the coaches have morebecause they were doing that
plus Poomsae and the Poomsaeopened.

Speaker 2 (11:07):
So they were walking around with five different
badges they paid for Silly right.
I heard that you fixedsomething to the extent of when
you won a match, you had to goall the way outside and go
around.

Speaker 1 (11:17):
Oh my God, Somehow you figured out that they could
just go ahead.
So on Friday they were lettingyou come out the venue at the
end and go to the right and youwent to the holding area.
You were right there.
It was like kind of a looparound to the holding, quick,
easy, only thing that makessense.
For saturday.
For some reason somebodydecided that it would be bright
to have the kids come out, goleft with no shoes on.
No, nothing.

(11:37):
They're coming off the ring.
Go left all the way around thebuilding, back in the front
where the spectators go backthrough the first security gate,
then all the way back toholding.
And they had to hold, they hadto go figure.
I'm like no, no, no, I forgetwho walked up to me and said
they were doing.
I'm like no, we got to figurethis out because that makes no
sense, and I'm talking it's likea six minute walk around, five
minute walk if I'm exaggerating,but it's a huge loop, no shoes

(12:00):
outside and that place is notlike the super cleanest.
There's rocks everywhere andit's just stupid.
That was just dumb and they hadto.
You know they had to go figureout.
I forget.
One of the referees helped me,my, one of my guys.
I can't, I can't remember hisname right now, but he, kind of
like, went and talked to him andtold me it didn't make any
sense but he had too many littlechanges.
They kept changing the way thegates went to get to the back.
And you know how it is oneperson tells one person they're

(12:21):
in charge, someone else tellsthey're in charge and people
just start switching stuffaround.
It's just silly.

Speaker 2 (12:25):
I thought it was.
I mean, we'll talk about theactual results.
But one more thing I heard on,for example, on Sunday, the last
day you were there, they didthe open first.
You talk about taking thespecial out of the way.
They did the open first.
They had all the actualchampionship.
People wait until 4 o'clock inthe afternoon or something along
those lines, and I'm like thatkind of sucks, you know like why

(12:45):
should?
Why should the actual event bedelayed?
Right, they should be the firstones.
I mean, let the open peoplecome afterwards.
Right, they're secondary atthis point.
No offense, but that's thetruth.

Speaker 1 (12:59):
That's crazy, yeah, but they let the and even even
for the random weigh-ins.
They were late for the randomweigh-ins.
The random weigh-ins time wasposted wrong.
It was like some absurd amountof time for the random weigh-ins
and then they still didn't getthere.
They had kids coming at 7.30.
Oh my God, before I forget Justwhat you just said, they
changed it around in the middleof the night, at 11.53.
For that day, on Sunday, forthe juniors, everyone thought

(13:21):
the Junior Pan Am Championshipswas going to go first, and then
the cadet opened.
A message came out at 11.54 pmon Saturday night saying oh, by
the way, we're going to do thecadets first and the juniors at
four, but why, I have no idea.
Someone decided that maybe theywanted to get out of there
earlier, but they changed it atalmost midnight on Saturday.
I'm calling around to othercoaches.

(13:42):
People are calling me.
I'm calling around the othercoaches.
People are calling me.
I'm trying to figure out whichgroup goes first, cause it
depends on what time you got tobe there.
You know they got.
You got guys having to cancelbuses that they had for their
teams to get over there just sothey could get there at the
right time to come back.
And it's great at midnight.
And then you message them andnobody answers.

Speaker 2 (13:59):
Well, I mean, let's talk about a little bit about
the under 22 event, because Iknow this was you know, master
President, what it was is therewas a series of four events,
okay, and you had to go to threeout of the four events to
qualify.
And then what they did is theytook a point total for all those
wins and losses and they rankedthe top eight people, okay, and
those eight people get to go tothe Junior Pan Am Games that

(14:21):
they're having this year, andit's a multi-sport event, it's
all their different disciplines,but Taekwondo is involved in
that, and the winners of thatjunior, if they get gold medal
at that event, they get to go tothe actual Pan Am Championships
in 2027.
So it was a series that wasdone in Mexico, peru, cuba and
back in Mexico.

(14:42):
Those were the four, so thiswas the final one and it's kind
of again, this is kind of crazy,because I just told you about
the top eight, but then they haddesignated Peru and Cuba.
If you got first or second, yougot a wild card to the Pan Am
Championships next year, sothere's an extra little bonus.
And then, after all that andthis tournament, this single

(15:04):
tournament, if you got top eight, you got a wild card to the Pan
Am Championships next year onthe senior level.
So, although there wasqualifying for the Pan Am Games,
there was this extra bonus thatyou could get to the Pan Am
Championships.
So theoretically, if I do mymath correctly, you could have
two from Peru, two from Cuba andeight from here, and then

(15:28):
national teams.
So let's just say,hypothetically, the United
States had one there, one there,one there, and then you get
four people in the Pan AmChampionships next time.
I don't know if any countrieswill have that, but it was a
little crazy.
But I want to ask you, tj, whatdid you think about the level
of the under 22 at that event?
Because I'm gonna brag for asecond, but I know that brazil

(15:50):
qualified every division for thepenham games on, on both sides,
for the male and female.

Speaker 1 (15:57):
Honestly, honestly, I think the earlier ones uh, came
off to me as a little bitstronger, um, like that first
one we did in queretaro, I think.
A lot of people showed up, yeah, and they kind of like
diminished like lower, lower alittle bit as you went across
the board.
But that's probably why theyadded that Pan Am Championship
thing and they go entice morepeople to show up and make a
little bit more money.
You know 100%.
But I like watching under 22for this region and it kind of

(16:21):
gives you an insight to likeeven from for me.
This one time I actually satdown and watched the cadet level
and the junior level and thePan Am region and like kind of
had a taste of all three.
And you look at the newdeveloping seniors.
You got to get to see like thetrend of the countries and who's
kind of building, who's growing, who's expanding, who's
shrinking, what's changing.
But it was a good event.
From the showing of the athletes, you know you had some big

(16:44):
names in there.
I know you were going to talkabout a sumo like Henrique
coming back and doing the 80 forthe last one.
I mean, those are not easyevents to do when you're
supposed to be the big dog inthe room.
You know we all know how thepressure is.
But he handles it well.
It was nice seeing him fightthis weekend and kind of be in
some tough spots and work hisway out of it.
So it was cool.
But yeah, overall I'll let yougo.
But under 22 for me I thinkthis time was just it was OK.

(17:06):
It was OK, I think, dealingwith all the other stuff on the
outside just kind of made itworse for me.
But the level, decent, somelike still some decent 68 fights
were decent.

Speaker 2 (17:15):
I saw that.

Speaker 1 (17:16):
Yeah, a lot of the 58 , some of the 58 fights were
decent, so you had your showingsand you had some your battles,
so it was fun to watch.

Speaker 2 (17:22):
I mean I'm going to give like a couple of teams
credit.
Like, I looked at the Chileanteam, they you can tell they're
building for the future.
They got a good 58 boy.
They got a good 68 boy.
They got a couple of good youngladies.
I mean they're you could seethey don't have many people, but
the ones they have are veryquality, so I give them credit.
Mexico was just, I would say,kind of average um the um.

(17:44):
I was really, you know, shockedthat we didn't see any
dominicans or anything like thatin any of any high level.
Um, obviously, brazil, I meanwe're investing in a lot of
these kids, um, we're actuallytaking up three of them actually
with us to uzbekistan later onthis month, um, because we just
feel like they're going to bethe heir apparent in some
division.
So that's kind of cool.
But yeah, I thought it was agood level.

(18:05):
But I would agree with you, Ithink the first series was like
the best and it just kind ofslowly kind of diminished a
little bit.
And then, of course, the UnitedStates, on the cadet and junior
level, won first overall.
I mean, I think the cadets thisis kind of how it usually works
on the cadet level, I think weusually dominate and then it
kind of is a slow slide, youknow, to juniors, and then it's

(18:28):
the seniors where we just becomemiddle of the road.
I was a little shocked.
I'm not going to be, you know,I think we have to be objective
here.
I was a little shocked on thejunior side that the boys only
got one gold medal, which isreally surprising.
I cannot remember a team.

Speaker 1 (18:47):
Okay, go ahead, you finish.
I was about to ask thatquestion.

Speaker 2 (18:48):
No, I just don't remember us not having two,
three, four gold medals, and wedidn't even get the one that won
it.
His name is Josh Alada.
He's won four junior Pan Am.
I think two juniors and won twocadets.
He's won four gold medals in arow.
He's a big, strong, 78-kilo guy.
So we didn't even win any ofthese.
You know the 50 kilos, 49 kilos, but those are some of the

(19:12):
money divisions, right?
Some of those kids are likebadass little kids and we didn't
have too much luck, you know.
So that's a little scary, ifyou ask me, yeah, I forgot about
that too and I mean to behonest with you, we got first.
United states.
Guys say we keep saying it usagot first overall.
But they also had about 11 or 12more wild cards on the junior

(19:33):
level.
Matter of fact, like one of theone girls that from peak, she,
uh, she won a gold medal.
She wasn't even with thenational team.
She got a wild card via thecanada open and she went there
and she won a gold medal.
So so if you took that personoff the national team, you got
three women and one man.
You got four gold medals.
You know what I'm saying.
I mean that's a little smallfor the junior side, cadet side.

(19:53):
I think the kids both sideswere I hate to use the word
dominant, but they were prettystrong.
They won a lot.

Speaker 1 (20:03):
Yeah, I wonder what the actual stat on that is.
It feels like I don't know.
Like I said, this is the onetime I actually got to sit down
and watch them, like kind offocus, and watch them all the
way through.
I just it's, like you said, itseems like an underperformance
to me.
You know what I mean.
It seems like I don't remember,at a time our juniors were a
little bit stronger than talkingjust from the guy side, you
know, and we're talking abouteight.
We're talking and again, maybeI'm wrong, maybe somewhere a

(20:24):
little bit bigger, but we'retalking eight to twelve people,
divisions, well like oh, they'resmall.

Speaker 2 (20:29):
Yeah, we're not talking.

Speaker 1 (20:30):
Nobody had 16 yeah, we're not talking like deep
divisions either, you know.
So that's.
And there were some kids thatwere rocking and rolling.
Don't get me wrong, a lot of.
There's some good guys, I think.
There I can't I don't know hisname, but I think there was a 51
junior kid that was prettyslick.
I think he came up short in thefinals against I don't know.
I don't know what country.
He was pretty slick.
We had some good people outthere fighting.

(20:51):
I just questioned.
I know I had a couple peoplecome up to me and ask me
questions about the coachingstaff.
Obviously, always the questionis why am I not on the coaching
staff?
That was one of the parentsthat asked me.
Why am I not on the coachingstaff?
That was one of the parentsthat asked me and just kind of
some concerns about how theirkid was handled during the trip
or someone wasn't payingattention or something like that
.
And again, I don't hear northere.

(21:13):
But I think you have to at thatlevel we need to make it.
I don't know.
Some of these kids werefighting well, doing things well
, and it came up a little short.

Speaker 2 (21:20):
That's all I'm saying , saying, I think I will say for
the cadet cadet side man thatmay know a coach.
Uh, the vs have a kid, josh.
That's the bad, I tell you.
That's a bad little boy man.
That's a bad dude.
I love that kid.
And joseboni, uh, perez out ofcolorado has a good kid,
nathaniel, that won a gold medaltoo.
And they're getting ready forcadet world.
I expect them to do well, butyou know I I'm gonna go back to

(21:42):
a conversation we had a longtime ago in Master Pres.
You can correct me if I'm wrong.
There's a lot of talk about howsome of the top, top coaches
should be at the bottom, bottomlevel.
Because, tj, you talked aboutthat when you were young, to see
some of the top coaches thereto give you that inspiration,
that guidance, that belief, itkind of gave you a little bit

(22:04):
more.
And again, nothing against thestaff, because I don't know them
personally.
I didn't.
I have no idea what they did ordidn't do, but I'm talking
about national teams, seniornational teams have.
I think they should be there insome capacity I don't care if
they're sitting in the standslike this and just take an
inventory of how their kids go,how they act, how they fight,
how they react.
And those are the ones you wantto look to invest in.

(22:27):
Again, for the U-22s, we had oneof our national team coaches,
coach Erickson.
He was there, he managed allthe kids and the ones that were
fighting for the U-22s and Ithink that's just the way you
got to do it.
You got to have some of thosetop-level people with eyes in
real time, because even me, me,we all know you watch on on
video and on screen.

(22:47):
You can get a, you get a sense,but it's not the same as being
there.
It is not the same as being inthe venue and feeling.

Speaker 1 (22:53):
So yeah, so I'm not even just so I'm clear before.
I'm not even talking about the,the coaches per se.
I'm just saying, historically,on stat wise, we've done better
than this historically at the,the junior, the pan am
championship level for ourjuniors, correct I'm a gold
medal, for sure, yeah yeah, soyou have to I mean they got good
.

Speaker 3 (23:10):
Yeah, you have to you have to understand that, like,
uh, certainly the listenerslisteners should understand that
if you're going to develop apipeline in that pipeline there
are many parts to it, but thereare many important parts of it
that are external to it, thatare part of the infrastructure
of it.
And I can only go back to someof the events that I look at in

(23:32):
another sport, and so in thisparticular sport, my son
participates, which we've talkedabout before.
They have three differentvehicles for defining and
understanding talent and theyhave at least two, maybe three
different pipelines.
So they have an Olympicdevelopment program, they have
an MLS program, then they havethe regular league programs, and

(23:56):
at each of these events thereare eyes on kids.
So when a kid gets to a certainlevel, they have eyes on those
kids to see which kids aredeveloping.
They have a platform that'snationwide.
That's a video platform thatevery single game that's played
in this league is put on theplatform.
So if there's a game, the gameis uploaded and, using AI

(24:21):
technology, they identify thechild by number and create a
highlight reel for everyindividual player.
So, in addition to having thefull game on, coaches now have
access to individual players andtheir highlights.
They then twice a year have ashowcase event where every team

(24:41):
in the country goes to thisshowcase event.
That's in this league and theyhave random draws and they
compete at least four matchesand then they have a playoff and
then a cup and the people thatget through the league get an
opportunity to play in theplayoffs and the people that get

(25:02):
through the showcase and makeit through that get to the
playoff.
At the playoff they haveanother one where it's just the
playoff for the cup and thenthey have another showcase.
So at these events are 100 to200 of the top coaches in the D1
programs in the United States.
So there are 211 D1 schools forthis particular sport.

(25:24):
In addition to that the D3s arethere and the D2s and the
professional teams.
So there's at least guys witheyes on kids.
Because the funnel there's 100%of the kids who play club
soccer or MLS club soccer,academy soccer, play club soccer
or MLS club soccer, academysoccer.
100% of those kids.

(25:46):
From that 100%, only 1% get toD1, 1% and the same for D3 and
so on and so forth.
But the quality of player thatthey get and when they identify
them is what matters, becausethen all of a sudden you get
these plays being identified at12, 13, 14, 15 for sure, 16 and

(26:10):
then finally at 17 before theyget to college.
So you get very high levelplayers that are transitioning
into these other higher leaguesand this is something that's not
occurring in certainly intaekwondo in this country.
And it's interesting becausearguably 4% of the people in the
country do martial arts, whichis a large number, and probably

(26:32):
1% do taekwondo.
Unfortunately, in the pipelinefor USA Trash I mean taekwondo,
usa Trash, taekwondo I get thosemixed up.
This particular pipeline,managed by one of the most
unsuccessful athletes in thesport, doesn't do that.
So there is no pipeline,there's no identification

(26:53):
process and the eyes on peopletend to be private coaches and
private programs.
So if you look at privateprograms in the United States,
the most successful privateprogram in the United States and
I don't say this because youguys are on it is PEAK.
There hasn't been a program inthe United States including mine
which had a lot of success fora lot of years that has

(27:15):
regularly put people in thepipeline, on the podium and on
national teams and Olympicstages.
So when you're looking at thatsort of success and I'm not
saying it because Coach Moreno'shere.
Why aren't you utilizing thattalent?
Well, we are.
Other countries are In theUnited States.
Even its program, like you justsaid, can't put people on a

(27:38):
podium.
So at the point where yourpodium performance is lacking
and you can't put people on,then the pipeline is broken.
But at the lowest level, Iagree with you.
If you're going to design, agreat program.
You got to have the best coachesat the lowest level identifying
talent, developing talent.
The best, not the worst.

Speaker 2 (27:58):
The best at the next level go ahead no, but for me,
I'm just saying like I I thinkyour, your description of a
pipeline and athleteidentification is is awesome.
I mean, it's great, and I'mtalking.
We already got the kids there.
They're already there at thetop.
However, they got there, theymade the national team, they got
a wild cards.
However, they got there,they're there.
My point is is those topcoaches, we're not really

(28:22):
selecting them in the future,but we should at least have our
eyes on them so that we canidentify them, maybe invite them
to camps, maybe give them otheropportunities so that when they
move up the age brackets,they're ready to do something.
Because we talked about thislast time with Mr Lewis we know
that the age for the Olympics is18 to 22, 23.

(28:43):
Okay, so if we're not lookingat these 14 and 15-year-olds,
coach Jennings, what are wedoing?
What are we doing?

Speaker 1 (28:50):
Just kind of hoping.
We're shaking it up andthrowing them out and saying we
hope somebody will be good Alsothey didn't spend $1 other than
registration for those kids togo to this event and the
t-shirts and stuff they got them.
They didn't pay for hotel, theydidn't pay for flights, they
only pay for registration,registration and like team kits

(29:12):
or whatever you want to call it.

Speaker 3 (29:14):
Well, how was?
How was Steve McNally and JayWarwick supposed to get to Korea
to eat Calbee?

Speaker 2 (29:20):
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
You got to save money for thattrip.
I thought they had so muchmoney.

Speaker 3 (29:25):
No, but you got to save money for Jay and Steve to
go drink soju with Cho.
I mean, you got to?
No, no, let's get ourpriorities right.
It's more important for Jay togo back to Korea so he can get

(29:47):
away from the United States andhis life, and McNally to get to
Korea to drink soju with Cho.
This is more important thanathletic development, because
podium performance doesn'tmatter when the United States
doesn't care and, to be clear,the membership of USA Taekwondo
doesn't care.
It cares because it doesn'tcare, because it wouldn't have
the coaches it has and itwouldn't allow the performance.
It would fire everyone.
So when we didn't haveperformance, let's be clear, we

(30:08):
didn't have performance.
We had a problem and we got ridof people that didn't perform.
We got rid of athletes thatdidn't perform.
We got rid of coaches thatdidn't perform.
We cleaned our own house.
In this particular, particularsituation, the membership that
stayed is drunk with power andit and it stays because it
doesn't have a choice andthey've bought into the dream.

(30:30):
They have a better chance ofgetting struck by lightning
twice or once than they have ofone of their kids making a
national team and hitting apodium, and they don't care,
because they've been bought.
They they've been bought that.
They've been sold that dreamand they've bought it.
This is worse than the NBAdream.

Speaker 2 (30:48):
The NBA.
Are they paying for anythingfor the world championships?
Do you know, tj From?

Speaker 1 (30:52):
what I heard, the answer is no.
Wow, from what I heard, is thesame thing Registration, that's
it From what I heard, that's itfrom what I heard, and if I'm
wrong, I please someone, get herand tell me I'm wrong.
That's all I want.

Speaker 2 (31:03):
Just tell me I'm wrong tell me, tell me to get my
facts straight or somethinglike that, because you're gonna
say something else, though youwere gonna say something, um no
it's just, it's, it's a joke.

Speaker 1 (31:11):
I mean like the, I mean even, like you know, and I
say I say even, but au isrefunds their guys, their, their
their hotel.
You got atu sends them almost,I think almost free flight,
hotel and everything.
You got other organizationsthat aren't the national
governing body fully fundingthings for the, for development
only, not even for winning.
For development only.

Speaker 2 (31:33):
Like not even on national teams.
They're not even national teams, they're just like doing it to
help these kids get experience,and they're doing it.

Speaker 1 (31:40):
And I got one question what is an
administrative fee?
Why do I have to?
When I registered, I went toregister for the American East
Open and it's 80 bucks and it's80 bucks for the thing and then
like a $5 administration fee,like who's administrating this?
Why am I paying more money?

Speaker 2 (31:53):
No, no, it's, it's, it's, it is 80, and then there's
an administration fee, like I'mlooking at the coaches thing.

Speaker 1 (32:02):
That's the coaches thing, yeah the coaches, yeah.

Speaker 2 (32:04):
And then I saw 80 and five.
Oh, that's, but for theathletes it's the tournament,
your division, and then that fee, so it's like 160 and then five
, like I don't just what I'mgonna say, uh, I mean, I'm sure
mean for just a.
They charge that in.

(32:24):
But what is a division fee?
Tj, I got to pay $100 to get tothe event and then $60 to pick
my division.
Just tell me it's $160.

Speaker 1 (32:33):
Yeah, don't do that to me.

Speaker 2 (32:35):
What is that?

Speaker 1 (32:37):
That's silly because they want people picking
multiple divisions maybe to pay,I don't know.
But like I'm sorry, I'm stuckon the administrative fee part.
Don divisions, maybe to pay, Idon't know, but like I'm sorry,
I'm stuck on the administrativefee part.
Don't they all, don't they allwork?
The administrative fee is likejust kind of like what?
The people that are the creditcard processing, like the the
money they're getting charged,they're making everybody else
pay for it and they're takingzero dollars of those funds and
giving it back to the juniorcadet team zero so we're taking

(32:59):
administrative fees and it'sgoing nowhere.
Like something has to like it'ssilly.

Speaker 2 (33:03):
It's silly.
Hey, I want to switch up.
Me and you had a conversation.
Sorry, man.
We had a conversation aboutsomething a couple weeks ago and
I thought it'd be fun to talkabout for a little bit here
today.
Do you remember thatconversation about?
I do, I do.

Speaker 3 (33:18):
I mean so.
In any sport and you can thinkof literally any sport in any
sport there is someone thatcomes in and by themselves they
change the landscape of thesport, the technical paradigms
of the sport, they change theway that the sport is performed

(33:39):
and they find a new way to dosomething that does one of two
or three things, and sometimesit's an individual technique,
but in most cases it's anindividual.
The individual becomes anoutlier, becomes a person that
changes the sport forever, andyou and I were talking about
this in the sense of I'm nottalking about somebody who's

(34:02):
good at the sport and uses theexisting rules to be good at the
sport and uses the existingrules to be good at the sport,
and we'll talk about a few ofthose.
But I'm talking about somebodywho comes into the sport, looks
at the rules and eitherconsciously or subconsciously
changes the way he views this orshe views that sport and

(34:22):
changes the way the sport isexecuted and makes an impact
that stays on the sport foreverand in some cases, when they're
gone, the sport remains the same.

Speaker 2 (34:34):
But they were unique in the sport, so I thought that
was an interesting conversationwe should, we should, we should
go and see if, like that kind ofindividual, like each person
pick one and then kind ofrecycle, like give me one, like
just pick one, then you pick one, I pick one and just keep.
You know, keep going, because Ihave I've been thinking about
this a lot and I have I'll letyou guys go first.

Speaker 1 (34:54):
You want to go?

Speaker 2 (34:55):
I'll do it.
I have a.
I mean I got a lot, this one'skind of a bad one, a boring one,
but because I have other onesthat are a little bit more fun
to talk about.
But I'll say one of the biggestsports changers in the history
of our sports so far is StevenLopez.
Because, Steven Lopez.
That's an easy one, becauseSteven Lopez had the leg check

(35:16):
and he, literally before him andeven after it, was so dominant
he looked at how to stop Correaby putting his right leg forward
and blocking their right legwith his leg check and kicking
afterwards that we now haverules, that says you can't do
that anymore, and we all agreeon it.
But that was part of the game.
Leg checking was part of it.

(35:38):
I mean, we hated it in practice.
Right, if someone leg checkedme in practice, I would try to
freaking kill them because I'mlike bro, this is not the place.
But in a match, a guy kicked inmy stomach.
I leg checked that fool all day.
I pick up my shipment and kickmy shin.
I mean, that's just what peopledid, you know, back in that
time.
But Steven Lopez, along withhis front leg learning how to,

(36:00):
and he used it as a defensivetactic.
That's what it was.
It wasn't to hurt, it was adefensive tactic to shut people
down.
And if you look at the historyof Steven Lopez, people didn't
score on this dude.
They didn't get a touch out ofhim, you know, and not till
later in his career.
Later in his career, he tooksome shots.
We can talk about that, but inhis heyday.
I'm talking 2000, 2004, 2000,2004, 2000.

(36:20):
That dude was hard to score on.
He was so long with the frontleg, such a good checking with
it.
Like he might be one of thegreatest all times of changing
the way people look at the sport, changing the way people played
the sport for that era.
So I'll use that one.
I don't know, you guys cancomment or give me a new one.

Speaker 3 (36:40):
I'm going to.
I'm going to go on a differentdirection only because that
certainly was a game changer andhe is an athlete, evolved a lot
and I have a lot of respect forwhat he did in the game.
He understood the game and heused his body, his body type,
his sport intelligence, sport IQto win a lot of matches and not

(37:01):
get scored on, and so thatthere's no denying that.
And then he actually got prettygood at taekwondo towards the
mid part of his career and thenhe stayed in the room too long
and you know which, whichhappens from time to time.
But there is an athlete that umfrom korea that I always
mention in this, in this breath,and I'm going to take in a
slightly different direction,and he was called the Leaper.
That was Jung Yong-sam, and mayhe rest in peace because he

(37:25):
passed away.
But this cat, like he, would.
He understood what the ruleswere, but he had the physical
attributes to be able to dothings that other people simply
couldn't do.
He could do a round kick, turnin the air before he landed and
do a back kick.
He could leap up in the air,hang and then put his foot.

(37:46):
We were at the 1987 worldchampionships and when he didn't
make the team for whateverreason, he did a demonstration
where he literally took one stepand jumped over a five foot
some inch guy's head and broke aboard with a flying sidekick
both legs over it.

(38:06):
One step, not two steps.
When he did it I had to pauseand think about what he did and
then saw it on review onvideotape.
It was unbelievable what he didand he would do this in matches
.

Speaker 2 (38:23):
He wouldn't just do it for demo go ahead all right,
yeah, you also.
He didn't make the team.
He went to the worldchampionships.

Speaker 3 (38:30):
He did a demonstration he didn't make the
team.
In 87 they had a differentfeatherweight, who, by the way,
got knocked out by sweden, andthen the swedish coach came in
and was running around so longthat he got up and still managed
to beat the Swedish kidssomehow, after being unconscious
from an up ball.
But Jung.
Yong-seom in 87 didn't make theteam and then went on to make

(38:53):
the 88 Olympic team.

Speaker 2 (38:55):
I know that, but did he do a demonstration at that
world championship?

Speaker 3 (38:59):
With the Kukiwon demonstration team.

Speaker 2 (39:00):
Yeah, You're a mad fool.
You compete at people's ass andthey do a demonstration too.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (39:07):
Like imagine you or I , we don't make an Olympic team,
we don't make a national team,and then we're going to travel
with the B team and go do ademonstration.
I'm like, nah, I'm good, I'llstay home, I'll wait for the
next event.
But this cat like I saw himfight so many times and all you

(39:32):
got to do is go watch him fightat the olympics.
This was a guy that transcendedthe rules and and and, to be
honest, at a much higher levelof skill than stephen lopez, um,
and almost any american.
Um.
Well, I mean, we had a handfulof guys that were technically he
.

Speaker 2 (39:42):
No, no, no, he was unique.
No, you're right.
I remember jumping up and doingstuff in the air Just
unbelievable how.

Speaker 3 (39:48):
How.
And more importantly, how doyou fight a guy like that?
How do you fight one of theseguys who can just fly through
the air, doesn't care what youdo and just is going to do what
he does?

Speaker 2 (40:00):
He looked like he was playing, like he was just
trying to invent something tohit you with, but with.
We have a couple people now dosome crazy stuff, but like he
was a, he was unique, he wasspecial and he was.
He was just different.
He was definitely an outlier.

Speaker 3 (40:11):
Listen, I'll give cj as much as I give him garbage,
because he can't win cj.
Whatever his name is, he'sgoing to get it, he'll get, get
it.
What's his name?

Speaker 1 (40:23):
Nicholas.

Speaker 3 (40:24):
CJ Nicholas when he gets on the Olympic podium, you
know where he should be.
I'll give him my props.

Speaker 2 (40:29):
I think all the people we're going to probably
talk about, are they.
They were unique and then theyexcelled.

Speaker 3 (40:34):
CJ apparently has the ability to do some interesting
stuff and he does stuff that'skind of freakishly.
Whatever, he doesn't have thesophistication and maturity yet
to do it in a way that a JangMyung-sam does.
He just does it.
I'll liken him to Hyun Lee, whowas on the team with all of us,
and Hyun was another guy whojust could do a lot of stuff not

(40:57):
on the level of Jang Myung-sam,but he would just try
ridiculous stuff.
A guy who was more effectivethan him was, uh, james viassano
, our teammate.
James, this cat, he could do itall and he wasn't inventing
stuff, but he was doing it withcourage and flourish and he was
able to do it in a way where itwas effective because, as you're

(41:18):
fighting him like a mark lopez,mark l Lopez at the world
championships, where they allwon, marky was doing stuff that
you just shouldn't do, but hedid it anyway and he did it with
confidence and it worked,because he's fighting guys and
they're like he's not going todo a not abundance switches if
he didn't do not a bunch of theother side.
So, but anyway, tj, you're up.

Speaker 2 (41:39):
Oh, you got TV Um up.

Speaker 1 (41:45):
Oh, you got tv, um, don't, don't, don't say, don't
say me, don't say me, no, I'mhere, die line, die line.
Um, no.
For me I would say I'm gonnakind of get trying in the middle
of this like electronic erakind of the switch over and all
that stuff like that.
For me I would have to say andI'll give you the reason why it
would be a day only in 68, and Isay that because I think he
fought in an era where all theflicky prevalent stuff was

(42:06):
strong, all the weird stuff wasstrong, and he managed to still
have a little we use the wordold school, but I mean a little
bit more emotional movement, alittle bit more solid shots, a
little bit more like direct playshots that still were able to
win.
And I'm going to sayconsistently.
And that's big for me, becausewhen I think about, like when
I'm training my guys, or howpeople are fighting, when we

(42:27):
talk about some of the bestpeople in the world, it's all
those like undertones of bodycontrol, undertones of like shot
selection, undertones of likebeing able to move their feet
when they need to, undertones ofunderstanding the length and
the distance and power levelsand all that stuff, stuff like
that.
So I would say for me in theelectronic era right now, it
would be.
I think he changed it a littlebit.
I think this little switchwe're starting to see where
we're going back to a lot moreback leg and a lot more solid

(42:49):
shots.
I'm gonna say he made thatvisible for everyone to see that
you're going that way still Ithink I'm gonna concur.

Speaker 2 (42:55):
I'm gonna concur with that too, tj, because I think
he was the first one that tookthe old school cerebral kind of
approach to how do I set thingsup, how do I trap, how do I
score, along with understandinghow the system works, versus.
I mean, in that era it was kickit, kick it, kick it, kick it,
kick it and whatever.
And I heard you always saywhatever thing lands first.
Right, I think he was cerebral,he was technical, he understood

(43:19):
how the system worked and hedid not fight like everybody
else.

Speaker 1 (43:25):
I saw him fight.
He fought one of his Koreanteammates at the Grand Prix
final and I think where was that?
Anyways, it was in the Unitedarea.
Where was it?
Where's the junior team aboutto go?

Speaker 2 (43:41):
Oh.

Speaker 1 (43:42):
Dubai.
It's close to Dubai.

Speaker 2 (43:43):
Fajara, fajara, fajara to go oh Dubai.
It's close to Dubai.
Fajar, fajar, fajar.

Speaker 1 (43:45):
Fajar, yes, yes, yes, sorry, sorry, and I'm going to
tell you to see the leveldifference between the A team
and the quote-unquote B team.
He put up like 50-plus pointson this kid.
Like I think this kid didsomething.
He spun on him early and scoredand Dae Hoon went on furious
like a rat.
I mean he's scoring back kickafter back kick after face shot
after punch, knocking him out ofthe ring and I'm like that goes

(44:05):
to show you we always talkabout the level of korea being
high.
He's doing that to this guythat probably would get in
everybody else's way and put alot of points on them.
He just blew him out of thewater.
So for me I would say day, whowent just in the midst of the
electronic era and it being sotall and long and lanky stuff, I
go with him.

Speaker 2 (44:22):
Man, I'm going to give somebody a crazy dude
because, man, I got so many I'mlooking at.
I'll let you guys talk.
I'm going to go with.
I got Gabriel Mercedes ChumuyenHadi.

Speaker 1 (44:35):
I got.

Speaker 2 (44:35):
I'm going to go with Chumuyen.
No, gabriel Mercedes.
I'm going to go with GabrielMercedes, and I'll tell you why
Because he came from an islandthat's about that big and prior
to him had no Olympic success,maybe a tough fighter here or
there, but he was doing things.
That dude is the one thatinvented the twist kick in

(44:56):
Taekwondo and he hit people witha skipping like we would do
fast kick, a skipping twist kick.
So loud, so clean, and refereeswouldn't push the buttons
because they had never seen itbefore.
I coached against him.
When he did that thing tosomeone I was coaching like
three times.
I'm like, yo, like, but it wasso wild.
And again, adding in thespinning and the dynamic of

(45:18):
changing directions, he wastruly a gem.
He was unique and he was.
He reminded me of a boxer fromPuerto Rico or Dominican
Republic.
Like he, he not only had thechanged techniques, he not only
had the athleticism, but he hadthe will to fight Like he, he,
he looked like fighting waspersonal to him and all along

(45:41):
that it looked personal.
He looked like he was havingfun, like he was smiling.
He's pointing at people in thestands.
He was a showman Like I don'tthink I've ever seen anybody in
the sport again differenttechniques, different style,
rough but athletic and havingfun at the same time.
He was just super, super uniqueto me and just a monster.

(46:05):
I think he paved the way forall of Dominican Republic and
they've had pretty good success.
They're a little bit down rightnow, but after him they have
some pretty good guys.

Speaker 3 (46:15):
Yeah well, you mentioned Servette and I'm going
to let you go back to Servette,but I'm going to pick somebody
from the United States.
I'm going to pick you go backto Servette, but I'm going to
pick somebody from the UnitedStates.
I'm going to pick Arlene Lemus.
And the reason I'm going topick Arlene is Arlene changed
the landscape of the game foreveryone, and you too, juan.

(46:38):
We're doing things thatshouldn't have been able to be
done against seasoned,knowledgeable taekwondo players
who are used to dealing with cutkicks and push kicks and face
whatever kicks.
And Arlene goes in that sameroom with you.
And, to be honest, park BunKwon.

(46:59):
Because Park Bun Kwon in 85,when he was 16 years old, at a
world championships, was sidekicking guys in the face,
lifting his leg up, and he wasdoing our lean before our lean
was doing our lean right, likepeople would look at the foot
and it was up there and thenthey would be kicked in the face
.
I mean good fighters, you know,know so like you, and he fought

(47:23):
with so much confidence and aplume.
He wasn't doing anythingcreative and new, but he was
doing it really well again and,and to be honest, when you
shouldn't have been able to doit.
In other words, if you liftedyour leg up and did that kind of
face kick, you would getunderkicked.
You know Padre Chagirunderneath it all the time.

(47:44):
But apparently I mean I trainedwith him at Chede for a lot of
years and we became friends overthe years.
When he came here I never gothit with that, but then again I
never tried to underkick it.
So I don't know.

Speaker 2 (47:57):
Let me ask you, though I agree with you about
Arlene, so how would you assessher being like, freakishly
unique and changing everything?

Speaker 3 (48:06):
Technically she changed that.
She didn't, and that's a oneand done.
So she came in, she changed thelandscape, got an Olympic gold
medal and then the divisiondidn't change.
So it didn't have an impact onthe division, wasn't like?
People went out and tried to beArlene?
Um, so in that sense she was.

(48:27):
She was a Jung Myung-Sum.
Right, like Jung Myung-Sum,what he did.
Nobody else came in and triedto do it.
Maybe arguably, gabriel,gabriela, whatever his name is
and, um, maybe he did, butArlene's thing was unique.
She didn't change the game, youknow, and the only thing I can

(48:47):
give you is like I was alwaysfighting, tall guys, right, and
you guys know this about me.
So I would put my hand down onthe floor when I would back hook
kick sometimes because I wasfighting.

Speaker 2 (48:57):
I'm done.
Yeah, I'm done.

Speaker 1 (48:58):
Oh no, now it is Five off the board.

Speaker 3 (49:00):
That's the Perez rule .
They made that rule for mebecause I was putting my head
down on the floor and knockingguys out, and then, finally,
they got to a point okay, yourhand touched the floor.
This is a come junk, right.
And so Arlene changed the gamefor herself.
Steven Lopez changed the gamefor the game.
They made what he did illegal.

(49:21):
They made what I did illegal.
They made what I did illegal.
They made what certain peopledo did illegal and they don't
understand it.
Um, and I'm not to put myself inthe category of any of those,
those guys, but I mean, I'llgive you, um, a guy whose speed
changed the game for thatdivision, and that's jimmy kim.
So you take a jimmy kim who wasgood at taekwondo, but he

(49:46):
wasn't like you know, like itwasn't like all, all of his
kicks were perfect or amazing.
He was just so god-awful fastand powerful that people didn't
see that.
You didn't understand it.
So he would do things that aheavyweight shouldn't be able to
do, just basic techniques thathit people, and he would change

(50:09):
the game where people started tochange the kind of heavyweights
they were looking for,including Korea.
Korea did Korea, did Koreachanged the way they developed
heavyweights.

Speaker 2 (50:21):
I was going to say that I was going to be like I
mean, I love Jimmy, he's one ofour best friends and everything,
but I mean I think that I don'tthink that heavyweight changed
for good until like now.
I think now you're starting tosee some pretty athletic.
You're seeing a lot ofmiddleweights fighting
heavyweights and they're doingextremely well because they're
big enough but they're agile.
I, they're big enough butthey're agile.

(50:42):
I think Korea did that to beatJimmy, but I don't think many
other countries did that.
There were still a bunch ofkind of heavy, slower guys other
than Korea.
Koreans got smaller and theywere trying to do some things to
beat the good thing foreverybody.
Jimmy just said deuces, I'm out.
He got his gold medal and hesaid none of you guys are guys

(51:03):
gonna see me ever again?
And so you know, we neverreally know.
I, I, I always wished jimmywould have fought another cycle,
because I think we would haveseen his greatness even like the
highest level.

Speaker 3 (51:12):
Yeah, he hadn't he, he hadn't peaked, jimmy hadn't
peaked and he knew that, but hewas smart.
You know, and the advice Ialways give and I gave this
advice to, um, a number of guyswho were winning I said, okay,
there's nothing that anotherOlympic gold medal is going to
do for you.
So think about your transitionand retire.
Don't stay on too long becauseyou need to do other stuff and

(51:35):
stuff and um, you know, and thatdepends on the athlete, you
can't really talk to athletesabout that kind of thing, but
with Jimmy, jimmy's dad and hisfamily were very um maybe
they're both rest in peace werevery set on his plan for what he
needed to do, why he was doingit, and um, it's great to have
an olympic gold medal, it'sgreat to have any olympic medal,

(51:57):
but you don't need two, youdon't need three, and I know one
.
You have two and and stuff likethat, but you got to fight till
your heart tells you you don'tneed two, you don't need three,
and I know, Juan you have twoand stuff like that.
But you got to fight till yourheart tells you you don't want
to fight anymore and you got todo what you have to do and get
on with your life.
And there's so many athletesthat don't transition well, they
don't transition from theirfighting days to the next stage
of their life, and whenever Italk to athletes I kind of

(52:17):
remind them of that you everstill miss it.
you ever still miss me I, I, Iwas always a transition kind of
person.
I, I don't even when I stopped.
The only thing I wish I and Idon't want to even say that
because I had made a decisionafter 92, I should have fought
one more year, 93, at the worldchampionships of madison square
garden, because it's my city,it's new york, and I probably

(52:40):
would have won.
But I had made a promise to myuh, my student and my athlete
that I would retire and he wouldgo and Peter Bardatos was that
student and I made that promiseto Sean Burke.
Both of them were training withme and I said I would retire
and it was their time.
And so I went on to coach andget on with law school and other

(53:03):
stuff and it was the bestdecision I made because Sifu
Paul Vizio, sifu Vizio, had saidto me why do you want to fight?
He said you already won.
He said you won't have the sameintensity, you won't have the
same fire.
But, more importantly, who'sgoing to care?
You win a world championships,who cares the Olympics?
Who's going to care you win aworld championships?

(53:23):
Who cares the Olympics?
You, the Olympics, I care, butthe Olympics is a different
thing.
You guys know, because you'reOlympians.
You can tell people about theworld championships, they don't
care.
They don't care about the PanAm Games, they don't care about
any of that.
We care in our sport, but atthe end of the day, the most

(53:50):
important stage you'll be on isthe Olympic stage, and that's
what people it's a.
There's a reason.
There's a reason why it mattersmore than anything else.
But athletes, transitions aretough for most athletes, and you
know a dear friend of ours.
He made a decision not tocompete any longer because of
his knees and he transitionedinto other things and became a
professor.
And he transitioned into otherthings and became a professor, a
double professor.
He was 87 Pan Am gold medalist,most likely would have medaled

(54:11):
at the Olympic Games, and wasthe one guy from the United
States that could have givenPark Bun Kwan a run for his
money, and that's Dr Kaepnerright.
So he understood the game.
He was a great fighter.
He was tall, long and straight,but he had knee challenges and
there were political challengesbecause back then the Koreans
were so corrupt.
They were corrupt, corruptbeyond belief to the point where

(54:35):
it affected the 88 team and itprobably affected the 92 team,
if you let it.
So he probably made a greatdecision, which is a is a tough
thing for people to hear, but umwell, you got tj, let's get
another one, another one for me,you're up, you're up.

Speaker 1 (54:55):
I don't got nothing on my head right now.
I got lost in his story.

Speaker 3 (54:58):
I'm listening oh sorry, going back to 1923.
Oh my God, you got to give Hadihis props, because Hadi won a
bunch of stuff, he mastered thetiming and you got to put Victor
Estrada in there too.

Speaker 1 (55:14):
How did he change the game?
How did he change the game?

Speaker 3 (55:17):
Victor Estrada too.
They both understood distancefor that division, and they made
people simple technique?

Speaker 1 (55:23):
Did they change the game for them or for everybody?

Speaker 2 (55:26):
No, no, wait, wait, let me take a shot.
No, I don't think Victor did.
Victor was good at Taekwondoand he won a lot of stuff.
I don't think he changedanything.

Speaker 3 (55:34):
No, he's a good fighter.

Speaker 2 (55:36):
Here's why Hadi changed the game, because again,
think about the era People weredoing Hadi.
I'll never forget it.
The first time I saw him reallyin life was 1999, world
Championships.
His first match of the day.
He fought the Egyptian worldchampion and beat him like 12 to
0.
It was ridiculous.
I never seen anything like it.
He was the first person to sayyou know what?

(55:56):
You move, I'm kicking out inmotion.
And then the second time you doit, you move, I'm kicking out
in motion.
And then the second time you doit, you move, I'm going to kick
and double.
Remember the back.
In those times, the 99 peoplemove, they just boom kick to the
butt, boom, boom kick, like hedidn't give up space, he didn't
look, and then he would justliterally encroach on you.
That that came kicking onmotion.

(56:23):
You would get trapped you werenot good, and you had to be
brutal to do that because youmight kick a shin, a knee, an
elbow.
And all the iranians adaptedthat, and then the egyptians did
, and then the turkish did, andthen the koreans did.
It literally changed the game.
So, and again before him, iranwas not a powerhouse, iran was.

(56:44):
I mean I fought iran at a worldcup and it was like I didn't
worry about it, like it wasnothing.
Now, after 98, 99, that's whenyou started seeing everybody,
you know, excel b box of theworld, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And I think hottie was, I mean,the dude even.
I mean I know this transcendsoutside the sport.

(57:06):
I mean he's the president oftheir federation.
Oh no, he's a, yeah, he's aforce.

Speaker 3 (57:09):
He's a force, but you know we didn't mention his name
and it's got to be mentioned inthe same breath because, you
know, the greatest, the greatesttaekwondo competitor ever, bar
none eclipses everyone isjungkook young.
And so jungkook young was agame changer, not for any

(57:30):
individual technique, but forhis understanding of the game as
a whole.
He was a guy that hadeverything on both sides,
understood how it fit andunderstood strategically how to
win any match anywhere.

Speaker 2 (57:44):
I mean yeah.

Speaker 3 (57:46):
And he'd like an 87, he goes in, he's fighting this
kid I can't remember where it'sfrom and he's losing.
First round one zero.
Second round two zero.
He's going into the third round, either two zero or three zero.
Hasn't scored a point, doesn'tsweat it, goes in and like pop,
pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop,pop pop and just takes it back.

(58:10):
So this guy, to be clear, he wasundefeated, undefeated
internationally, for a period ofeight to 10 years, and so he is
a smart player.
Years, and so he is a smartplayer.
I'm not sure that he couldtranslate that to others in the
sense of coaching, which isanother question.
You know, how does a greatathlete that becomes a good

(58:31):
coach?
But he, you can't have aconversation about guys who
transcended the game because hechanged that division.
He changed that divisionforever, for a very, very long
time, when it was tough to do,and I, so I, I, um, he's not
that.
And this gives me back to theprobably the most important

(58:52):
point.
The historically the best, mosttransformative, unique team
ever was the 88 Korean nationalteam.
That team was unique.
Maybe not in your division,juan, but you got to think about
they had.
Myung Chan, they had.

(59:12):
Jung Myung Sam, they had.
Bong Kwan, they had.

Speaker 1 (59:18):
Jung Kook Hyun.

Speaker 3 (59:19):
You got to watch First of all, if you watch it
you'll go back and learnTaekwondo.
How many?
There's seven gold medals.
Seven.

Speaker 2 (59:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (59:27):
Seven, you'll go back and learn Taekwondo.
In other words, what you'redoing now is foot farting.
Go back and watch that if youwant to see Taekwondo, and I
challenge people to do this, andI challenge anyone to do this?

Speaker 1 (59:46):
Watch the 88, watch 92, watch 2000,.

Speaker 3 (59:48):
Hold on watch 88, 88, 92, 2000, 2004, 2008, and then
turn off your TV.

Speaker 1 (59:56):
No 2012, because my generation probably was the best
generation across the board.
We fought, we kicked, we wentforward we had motion Hold on a
second what you heard, what Isaid.
You heard what I said.
That's what I believe, 100%.

Speaker 2 (01:00:09):
He heard me.
You're in the hollow.

Speaker 3 (01:00:12):
Should I go get Juan?
Do you have your medal anywhere?
It doesn't matter, it'sirrelevant.
Should I get my medals, I'llgive you Chucky's.
I think he's great I it'sirrelevant.

Speaker 2 (01:00:22):
I'll give you Chuckie John.
I think he's great.
Let me ask I do too.
Honestly, I concur, because youguys were kind of my first
2012?
.
Who was on that team?
No, no, no, not teams.
He's just talking aboutdivision.
He's talking about fighters,right?

Speaker 3 (01:00:35):
Generation.

Speaker 2 (01:00:36):
Yeah, wow, there were some good fighters at that time
.
Who I mean?
Think about it?
Servette was there.
Oh, no.

Speaker 3 (01:00:45):
He's talking about the States, United States You're
talking about.

Speaker 2 (01:00:47):
No, no, no, oh in the world, oh, no, no.

Speaker 3 (01:00:49):
No, no, you have better fighters worldwide.
Definitely, definitely.

Speaker 1 (01:00:52):
Yeah, worldwide 2012.
I wasn't on the USA team.

Speaker 3 (01:00:58):
So I was okay, you're okay, I did my thing, I got you
.
I got you for a silver orbronze.
I got you silver or bronze.

Speaker 1 (01:01:04):
I fought in a pretty, if I got to say my biggest flex
.
My biggest flex was probablybeing as consistent as I was in
our era of 60s, 68s.
I was team.

Speaker 3 (01:01:16):
I was head of team and I was a bunch of stuff on
those times and I watched youfight and you had some great
fights and you fought some greatfighters.
So I mean your hands were fullDo?

Speaker 2 (01:01:27):
you think Pani I mean , I don't know if you probably
don't know her too well, youngbut do you think Pani Pak is a
game changer, or is she just afreak?
She's just a freak, she'samazing.
I love her.

Speaker 1 (01:01:39):
I love her, I love her, I'm going to touch on a
Servette thing since you broughtit up I think what made him
special and kind of I think atthat point even for me I'm going
to talk about me myself I thinkeveryone else was trying to
figure the electronics out anddeal with the taller guys,
because me and him werecomparable in height he just
said, I don't care, he was goingto spin, he was going to go
forward, he was going to go in,he was gonna go forward, he was

(01:02:01):
gonna go forward, he was gonnago forward until he scored.
And if he got scored in betweenhe goes I'm gonna go forward
again.
And that was just.
I think that was what made himtough in that division because
you couldn't really control itwith your front leg.
If you were long, he was gonnakeep going forward and spinning
and changing.
I think me and him had someunique fights, but he was, he
was definitely one of the ones.
I know that I had to.
It was gonna be a fight we weregoing to exchange, we were
going to kick um.

(01:02:21):
So I think that's what made himspecial in that time with
electronics.

Speaker 3 (01:02:23):
So so you got to get.
I mean, what's funny is theperson's name who hasn't come up
in this conversation is, uh,patrice remark, and, like you
know, you can love or hatepatrice, but, patrice, you want
to talk about a guy who wouldleg check or a guy that would
kick you.
This.
This is a guy that you knowpeople would leg check him and
he'd break their leg, likePatrice.

(01:02:45):
His body just couldn't keep upwith what he was doing.
Like he was a smart fighter.
He was also a good fighter andI don't know that he changed
that division or changed thegame, because he was just a cat
that came in and just could doand absorb and deliver more

(01:03:07):
punishment.
I mean the best story, which isactually true, cause I was in
the room 1985, nationalchampionships, when they were
still letting foreigners competein that division.
They looked at, they went up tothe draw board cause they would
post it, and I watched three orfour people leave the gym, just
leave the gym, not even getdressed to fight.

(01:03:29):
They saw that they had Patrice.
He won the French nationalchampionship undefeated without
fighting.
They didn't even enter to fight.
That's how dominant he was as awelterweight.
So you know, you can't denythat reality of what he did with

(01:03:51):
the sport.
He was not 100%.

Speaker 2 (01:03:55):
Let me ask you, tj, like, do you think that anybody
not that I mean, is anybody?
What's the word Transformative?
Yeah, not that I mean, isanybody?
Trends, trends, what's the wordtransformative?
Transformative, yeah,transformative.
In our sport, in our era, rightnow, I mean, there's some good
people, like for me, rashitov ishead and shoulders above
everybody else in 68 if he'sgoing up.
But, um, but is anybody theonly one I could think of?

(01:04:19):
And I can't?
Well, I mean, we mentioned CJbecause he's doing something
different.

Speaker 3 (01:04:24):
He can, he could, but to be honest, he's just.

Speaker 2 (01:04:27):
Not yet.

Speaker 3 (01:04:28):
He's coached poorly.
He has the world's worstcoaches.
He's got the.
He doesn't listen.
He doesn't have anybody toteach him.
He doesn't have anybody that'sever won anything.
He's got bangers and mashtrying to coach.
You got bangers and mash tryingto coach.
You got bangers and mash tryingto coach a Rolls Royce.
We're talking about a kid who'sa potential Rolls Royce or
Bentley.
And you got a Toyota.

Speaker 2 (01:04:48):
Hyundai mechanic.

Speaker 3 (01:04:49):
You do, you got, let's be.
Let me be frank.
The current coaching staff ofUSA Taekwondo are Hyundai
mechanics.

Speaker 2 (01:04:56):
I'm not bringing my Audi to them.

Speaker 3 (01:05:04):
I, you know it's, I don't, I can't listen.
We didn't have great coaches,necessarily, but they didn't do
any damage, right they you.
Just we just did our thing.
We didn't need them.
This is a kid if coachedproperly and I can give you some
other guys I can I can give youClay Barber right.
Clay Barber, with the rightcoach, would have beat everybody
in the world, james Villasada acouple more years, you know

(01:05:26):
would better.

Speaker 1 (01:05:27):
I don't know, before we get too far.
I don't know when you weretalking about when you were
talking about the teams in theUS.
I think that 2012 Olympic teamwas pretty unique having Steven
and Diana, two returning Olympicmedalists, on the team, plus
two people that hadn't medaledthat a unique mix.
I don't think that's pretty.

Speaker 2 (01:05:41):
I think that's pretty like kind of um, I don't know,
I think on paper it was a goodteam and it was funny because on
paper you and page were the lowones and they were higher.
But when you look, at it nowit's opposite.
If you look at again, based onyouth, based on energy, like
they were the experienced onesand you're right, young you said

(01:06:02):
, like you know, c Vizio toldyou you wouldn't have the same
intensity.
Steven was not the same guythat he was.
Diana was not the same thatthey were when they won the
world championship.
No offense, because they weregood for a long time.
I'm just saying it was a uniqueteam but on paper they were the
top two and you guys were thebottom two.
If you look at it now, it'seasy, but if you just think

(01:06:27):
logically, it was the opposite.
You guys were the young guns,you guys were the speed and the
experience and the and the, the.
I'm gonna go get it.
I mean, that's to be, that's,uh, for me an objective.
You know, uh, uh, kind of lookat that.
But I was gonna say simone,what about simone?
From, from, so this guy he's anItalian guy.
He won the Olympic gold medal.
Is he going to go In a, in a,or silver In a?

(01:06:54):
I'm pretty sure it was a goldmedal.
Anyway, he's the one that he'sthis giant.
Six foot six, what is he?
Six seven.
How tall.
He's giant, but he basically isgiant.
Six foot six, what is he?
Six seven, I'll tell you.
He's giant, but he basically isthe guy.
He didn't invent it, but he'sthe one that made it nasty.
The ax kick when it gets caughtup.
Kick with the other leg.
This dude hails Like.

Speaker 1 (01:07:15):
Everyone knows he's coming and this dude drops
people like left and right.

Speaker 2 (01:07:24):
Now he went up to middleweight now because he's so
big.
So we're going to see if he can, if he's going to stay there,
come down, or what he's going todo.
But, um, I'm just trying tothink of somebody that's I'm not
talking about worldchampionships in 74 yeah, that
kid world title in negative 80in baku.

Speaker 1 (01:07:37):
Yeah, he went off for a while, yeah, but um and then
everything else.
Anyway, just I was.

Speaker 2 (01:07:42):
just he's the only one that can say that it's kind
of different, kind of special,not good.
Obviously there's some goodones, but I don't know.
I think you've got to talkabout Cisse too.

Speaker 1 (01:07:53):
You've got to talk about Cisse before Even him
switching to heavyweight kind ofchanged the game a lot in
heavyweight.

Speaker 2 (01:07:58):
You know what I mean.

Speaker 3 (01:07:59):
Ch change the speed a lot, change the dynamics a lot
you know, even for welterweight,yeah, but you know, you know
who we haven't mentioned and isworth a mention is um pasqual as
a heavy.
Pasqual as a heavy was like inthat transformative part where
he was doing double kicks likehe was kicking guys, double kick

(01:08:21):
to the face, knocking guys out.
And he was.
He was a tough guy.
Nice guy too.

Speaker 1 (01:08:25):
That was modibo modibo too, modibo kita.
Yeah, he won two worldchampionships for um molly.
Uh, yeah, I think molly yeahlike same thing.
He would double triple.
Not about actually keep on theface as a heavyweight yeah, full
split.

Speaker 2 (01:08:38):
That's cool.
That's so cool.
Like you know, talk about likepeople again shows you how the
world just changes, like nobodyeven mentions moldebo anymore.
But that was a bad mo foe like.
He was big, he was strong, hewas, he was a freak, flexible.
He's a good one man because Igive credit, because he came out

(01:08:59):
and I remember when that boywould fight people and he wanted
I don't want to use my analogy,but he would just tear people
up and then he went down.
Remember in in the realolympics.
You know he went.
No real is when he won the nextolympics.
He went down um and just andyou thought his career was over

(01:09:20):
and he went up to heavyweightand he just resurrected.
He just took off like a jet.
Yeah, yeah, he was prettyimpressive.
Well, I like this conversation.

Speaker 3 (01:09:29):
I think what we should do is I know we have a
lot of listeners, so we're goingto I'm going to give you an
email.
If you guys are listening thislong, cause we've been on for a
minute or two send your email,best of to either coach me
around on myself or um, and I'llpost it on the on the website.
Mine is easy to remember gold92, g-o-l-d 92, like the year 92

(01:09:52):
at aolcom.
I got it back way back when,and so send us aol baby, by the
way I'm the guy still paying forit.
I'm the only guy in the worldstill Somebody, I think I still
get a bill from AOL, I thinkthey got it.
I'm like that guy in officespace they put downstairs with

(01:10:12):
the red stapler man.
I ain't moving.
But yeah, I still got AOL, andthe reason I have it is because
I got it way back when and youprobably couldn't get it now,
and so it's an obnoxious emailfor an obnoxious guy.
But, like I said, sorry, notsorry, but send us your um
comments about the show, but,more importantly, send us your

(01:10:33):
best stuff.
I like this idea because weforget it's been uh, for some of
us who are older than some ofyou, it's been a while, been a
minute.
So we been talking aboutfighters you've never heard of
and fighting styles you maybenot know.
And I'm going to actually I'mgoing to make a promise to you
too.
I am actually going to try towatch whatever the next big

(01:10:54):
Taekwondo event is, and then Iwill try to and I'll drink a lot
of coffee.

Speaker 1 (01:10:59):
I'm going to Charlotte.

Speaker 3 (01:11:01):
I'll drink a lot of coffee.
I'm not going to Charlotte andI think the Nationals what's
going to be good.

Speaker 1 (01:11:05):
What's in Charlotte.
I don't think it's going to begood.
What's in Charlotte?
No, no excitement Boring.

Speaker 3 (01:11:10):
Nobody goes to Charlotte.
People that live in Charlottedon't go to Charlotte.

Speaker 1 (01:11:15):
But that's the next big one.

Speaker 2 (01:11:16):
No, but if you think, yeah, I'm just going to.
The more and more I look at theselection procedures, I think,
okay, you're going to whoeverqualifies for there will be good
in the Grand Prix, but I thinkyou're just going to get a bunch
of.
I don't think you're going toget a lot of good people.
You know why.

Speaker 3 (01:11:32):
When is it?
When is it?

Speaker 2 (01:11:34):
It's in June.

Speaker 3 (01:11:44):
All right, I'll look at the, I'll look at, I'll look
at the restaurant list list andI'll just I'll see if there are
any good restaurants incharlotte.
Um what, do you?

Speaker 2 (01:11:48):
what do you get there ?
Gumbo and crayfish.
What else do you get?
You get cornbread, what do you?

Speaker 3 (01:11:50):
get?
What do you get in charlotte?
What's the, what's the big foodthere?

Speaker 1 (01:11:55):
whatever you want humbuckers.

Speaker 3 (01:11:56):
What do you get, humdingers?
I have no idea downtown.

Speaker 1 (01:12:02):
The downtown area here is not the worst with
restaurants and stuff.
We got some, like you know,kind of like mixes of um korean
style food when you have yourtraditional restaurant.
You got your like uh fusionplace.
This is in charlotte yeah, thestadium area is not bad.
You went out and you can watchsome soccer.

Speaker 3 (01:12:18):
Oh, so I might buy one of my son's teammates just
got recruited by the Charlotteteam, so I'd love to go see him
play.
His dad's a good friend.

Speaker 2 (01:12:29):
TJ's got season tickets.
I had season tickets.

Speaker 3 (01:12:32):
Hold on a second.

Speaker 2 (01:12:33):
Things to do in.

Speaker 3 (01:12:34):
Charlotte.

Speaker 1 (01:12:36):
Hold on a second.

Speaker 3 (01:12:38):
I'm asking Siri.

Speaker 2 (01:12:39):
The 15.

Speaker 3 (01:12:41):
Things to do in Charlotte.
Nothing what it says.
Nothing must do experiences.
Historical goat golf cart tour.
What billy?
Graham library, nascar hall offame, carowinds discovery place

(01:13:02):
it's not a golf here no, hendrixmotor.
What?

Speaker 2 (01:13:07):
hendrix the bank of america.

Speaker 3 (01:13:09):
What mint museum, what, okay, okay, hold on a
second, let me try this for hey,things to do in san francisco
oh, and the list keeps going.
Oh, nice, yeah, all right, letme see.
Plane ticket to Charlotte,plane ticket to New York.
Hmm, yeah, okay, anyway, I'llsee you.

(01:13:32):
All right, boys been, it's beena great day, as always, and
this has been the warehouse 15and, as we said, if we said
something, particularly, I knowtj's always saying something
offensive sorry, not sorry, andwe are out, peace.
Yeah, I think that.

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