May 14, 2026 • 42 mins
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Everyone's finally talking about math anxiety - in students, parents, and anyone that goes into a panic at the mere mention of the word "math". But one group is often overlooked: math teachers!
Many teachers find themselves having to teach math whether they planned to or not, and often without even being trained on the material themselves. But don't panic! Today's guest, teaching coach Heidi Sabnani, has a step by step process to turn that math anxiety into a classroom strength. She joined Vanessa to discuss:
- Is math anxiety contagious?
- Consistency - the secret to longterm change
- How to overcome math anxiety at any age
About Heidi: (Website, LinkedIn, Instagram, YouTube)
Heidi Sabnani, EdD, has been an educator in math and literacy for over 25 years. She regularly presents at regional and national conferences in the United States and has been invited to speak at conferences in Guatemala and Ecuador. She is the co-host and co-author, with Molly Vokey, of the Math 4 All Show and Math Activators for Reasoning about Fractions, Decimals and Integers.
*CONTEST IS NOW CLOSED* This episode is sponsored by Texas Instruments! Listen to the episode for instructions to enter to win an "Oh My Math" box featuring:
- the new TI-84 Evo graphing calculator + 4-yr license
- an adorable plushie TI calculator keychain!
Contact us:
- Vanessa Vakharia: Instagram, TikTok, Email
- Math Therapy: Text the Podcast
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Heidi Sabnani (00:03):
I will still walk into spaces where I'm like, I
don't know that I should behere, Someone made me feel a
certain kind of way about it,but done the work, I'm here,
none of us have arrived.
We're all working on things.
give yourself some time andspace in that moment and you can
do the thing.
give yourself some time.
Vanessa Vakharia (00:22):
Hello and welcome to this week's episode
of Math Therapy.
All right.
I first discovered today'sguest, Heidi Sabnani, at my very
first international matheducation conference, when I saw
her name on the program next toa talk description that had the
words math anxiety in it.
It was the first time I waslike, oh my God, there are other
people who care about thisstuff.
Well, little did I know HeidiSabnani has cared about this
(00:45):
stuff for a long time.
In fact, she's cared about itever since she developed math
anxiety herself as a youngstudent, and she decided to
conquer it as an adult so shecould help others never feel the
way she did.
Heidi has been an educator inmath and literacy for over 25
years, and her superpower iscoaching teachers on how to
overcome their own math anxiety.
(01:06):
And in today's episode, shewalks us through her exact
process with a step-by-stepplaybook to help teachers
transform.
We also discuss why so many ofus develop math anxiety because
of the way math is taught andhow anyone can learn a better
way regardless of how old youare or how gross you feel about
math.
Now, before we get into theepisode, I'm actually so excited
(01:27):
to say these words because it'sa first for Math Therapy, and I
get to sound like a real dealprofessional celeb podcaster.
And because I manifested this.
Okay.
I'm nervous.
Are you ready?
Fine.
Okay.
Here we go.
This episode of Math Therapy isbrought to you by Texas
Instruments.
Ah, I did it.
(01:47):
Oh my God.
It's true though, it's our firstsponsored episode.
Like I know that might not be asexciting for you as it is for
me, but first of all, that wasas much fun to say as I thought
it would be.
And second, if you know me, youknow I have been a Texas
Instruments girly since highschool, so I can think of no
other brand I'd wanna partnerwith first.
But even more exciting for youis that we're doing a giveaway
(02:08):
right now and you can win an OhMy Math box featuring their
brand new TI 84 Evo graphingcalculator and some other
goodies, including a plushiecalculator key chain, which is
literally just as cute as itsounds.
The TI 84 Evo is a graphingcalculator for like today's
classroom.
The best feature, is the newhome screen, which is super
(02:28):
intuitive and icon based, so youcan see everything you need and
like you're not digging aroundthrough menus to find features.
It kind of operates like asmartphone screen so it feels
familiar and super friendly.
So to enter, all you have to dois text the podcast using the
link in your app and tell me youwant in on the TI giveaway.
Your entry has to be received byTuesday, May 19th.
(02:48):
I'll randomly pick a winner andjust like that, the new TI 84
Evo is yours.
I did it, my first sponsoredmessage.
Okay.
Now let's get to today's guestbecause that is just as exciting
as the giveaway, I promise.
Here is my chat with HeidiSabnani.
Heidi, welcome to the podcast.
Heidi Sabnani (03:08):
Thank you so much for having me.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:10):
I was having a memory of the first time I met
you, so it was my first everNCTM, so I think it was 2022.
It was in La, like it was gonnaCalifornia.
And I remember looking throughthe program and I was like, oh
my God, somebody's talking aboutmath anxiety, I'm gonna go see
it.
And what I remember distinctly,is that your presentation has so
many GIFs in it.
(03:30):
Do we call it gif?
Or a gif?
I don't wanna start this debate,but what do you call it?
Heidi Sabnani (03:34):
GIF
Vanessa Vakharia (03:35):
God,
Heidi Sabnani (03:35):
it.
But I mean, I
Vanessa Vakharia (03:37):
no.
Heidi Sabnani (03:37):
wrong.
I mean, my, my teenagers are nothere to tell me if it, is it gif
or gif i, you know, I've saidboth.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:45):
okay.
Heidi Sabnani (03:45):
I'm from New England.
We don't pronounce all ourconsonants, so
Vanessa Vakharia (03:48):
Fine.
Yes.
Tomato, tomato, gif, gif.
I remember it had all thesefunny, I'm gonna use your
language'cause you're my guest,it had so many funny gifs on it.
And I was like, oh my God, thisis so cool.
But I remember leaving beinglike, honestly, you were the
first person.
I ever knew who was doing workon math anxiety.
Like I remember being like, ohmy gosh, this is the first time
(04:08):
I've heard somebody else talkabout this in a similar way that
I do.
So let's get into it.
When we do our talks, these arepeople who choose to go to a
conference.
So that's like one level of mathanxiety is the math anxiety
where you're like, I know I'manxious about math.
I wanna, you know, try and fixthat.
But then there's a whole otherlevel of so many folks who are
(04:29):
like, I have deep anxiety aboutmath and it's scary and I can't
face it.
So we're not getting thosepeople.
So I would love to know a littlebit more about like.
What can we do?
Like if there's a coach, ifthere's a teacher, if there's a
leader listening to this whatare some interventions that you
like, love?
Heidi Sabnani (04:44):
Yeah.
and I'll put myself firmly inthe camp of someone who
Vanessa Vakharia (04:47):
Same.
Heidi Sabnani (04:48):
and like, I've shared the story
Vanessa Vakharia (04:50):
Wait, share it now.
We don't all know the story.
I don't know.
Heidi Sabnani (04:54):
Okay.
So, have some mild dyscalculiaand dyslexia.
And a child in school, thingswere really, really challenging
for me, particularly when I wasin elementary school.
And I, um, came into fourthgrade and at the time, that was
when we were learningmultiplication facts and that
(05:16):
they made no sense to me.
And it was like this constantbattle.
And I had a teacher who, if Ilook back on it kindly now, like
with the best possible of, oflenses, was doing what had been
done for years.
And it's like, you know, shedivided the class into the kids
who were bright and movingforward and to those of us who
were not and weren't really asworthy of her time.
(05:39):
Um,
Vanessa Vakharia (05:42):
This is the best possible lens everyone.
Heidi Sabnani (05:45):
Yes, this is the best possible ones.
Um, but you know, but like whatshe know, right??
Like what she knew how to do,and it's like, oh, if you have
like this group of kids, it'ssuper bright and like you should
be pushing them and doing allthe things.
And my, um, situation was I hadto stay in at recess every day
to do more math work because Iwas so behind and, and all of
(06:05):
those things in one day, I hadhad enough and I threw my work
down and I went out to recesswith all my friends and I
remember her standing up at thetop of the, playground, like
screaming, Heidi Sabnani getback here.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:18):
Oh my God.
Heidi Sabnani (06:19):
um, it was like a huge thing.
my parents were mortified, therewere all sorts of repercussions.
My parents' response was like,we're gonna brute force this.
We're going to like help youmemorize and we're gonna work on
this.
And so I left that experienceand thought that math was
literally something to endureand something to memorize.
(06:41):
And so we worked on memorizingtools to help me memorize things
so that I wasn't switchingnumbers and, and letters made it
even more interesting when wegot in into those later times.
And so my whole goal in highschool was to take enough math
so that I
Vanessa Vakharia (06:57):
Hmm.
Were you diagnosed withdyscalculia and dyslexia at that
time, or
Heidi Sabnani (07:02):
No.
Vanessa Vakharia (07:02):
So you didn't even know, you were just like
experiencing this thing and likeyou didn't know what was up.
You were just like, this is justmaking things hard.
Okay.
Heidi Sabnani (07:10):
early, early
Vanessa Vakharia (07:11):
Yeah.
Yep, yep.
Yep.
Heidi Sabnani (07:12):
Unless it was like, you know, super severe
needs within, you were, you werenot getting any additonal
support.
Vanessa Vakharia (07:20):
The way, I always say is one of the major
causes of math trauma is havingan undiagnosed learning
difference and just feeling likethere's something wrong with you
and not being given the supportthat like exists.
Heidi Sabnani (07:28):
Yep.
a hundred percent true.
And so like, that was my wholething.
I went and, and chose a careerthat was not in math, not in
stem, like literacy a hundredpercent of the way.
Fast forward a whole bunch ofyears.
I'm working for the schoolimprovement division, one of the
divisions in Ohio.
And I had a co-teacher who wasgonna help support teachers in
(07:50):
the school improvement on math.
And I was gonna do literacy andit was gonna be this wonderful
like, situation where we couldwork with adults.
And I was so excited.
And, um, she decided like sixweeks in that she hated working
with adults and quit.
Boss was like, well, this is agrant funded position and we
can't find anyone, so it's gonnabe you.
You're just gonna do both mathand literacy.
(08:12):
And I said, um, I'm so sorry.
No, I have lived my entire life,like I'm in my thirties at this
point, with the goal to avoidbeing in math classrooms.
Like I'm not, I can't put myselfthrough that stress.
And she's like, oh, you're justgonna fake it till you make it
like it's high school.
It's primarily pedagogical needsthat they have.
And so you're gonna go in.
So I would go into theseclassrooms and go into these
(08:33):
meetings and be like, okay, sotoday we're gonna act like know
nothing.
And you're going to work with melike as if I'm a student.
And then I would go into theseclassrooms and the kids would
ask me questions and I'd belike, oh, what do you think
about that?
Like, talk me through yourprocess or like, what tools do
you have that
Vanessa Vakharia (08:50):
Okay.
Wait, so what, let me pausethough.
When, when they're asking youquestions, are you legitimately
like, I actually don't know theanswer.
I'm not even acting right now.
Okay.
You're method acting.
Heidi Sabnani (08:59):
yes, a hundred percent so at the end of that
school year, the district and myboss came to me and they're
like, you know, we felt this,this is went so well.
people just really appreciatethe fact that you're not like
telling them exactly do this orthat.
You're asking kids questions orasking them to, and I was like,
this is really backfiring on me.
(09:21):
And so in that moment, I startedlooking for and started taking
math classes again.
And so I went back and I waslike, if I'm gonna do this, if
I'm gonna be in this space.
And I, at that point, they werelike, we'd also love you to go
and work with the elementaryschools and the teachers there.
And I said, okay, if I'm gonnado that, I'm gonna.
My experience, and I'm gonnareteach myself in the ways that
(09:42):
I wish I had been taught.
And so I looked for, like theMarilyn Burns and the all, all
the things that have existed,but that I had did not seem to
have access to because peoplehave been doing this work.
Vanessa Vakharia (09:54):
This is kind of wild because this is so meta,
right?
This is like the matrix orwhat's that movie?
Inception, right?
With like all the, it's likethere's so many layers here
because it's like, now obviouslywe're gonna get to now in a
second, but I'm thinking abouthow, where our conversation is
about how to help teachers withtheir own math anxiety.
And you were that teacherbasically, like you were that
teacher with that math anxiety.
You're put in this role, which Ialmost feel as like exposure
(10:17):
therapy.
It's basically like you'rethere, you're doing it through
that somehow you get to thepoint where someone's like,
Heidi, you know what?
This was actually awesome.
We want you to keep doing this.
And then you're like, okay, I'mgonna guess I'm gonna learn more
math.
So my question is, at thispoint, are you scared of
learning more math or are youfeeling a bit confident because
you've done a good job so far atwhatever it is that you're
(10:38):
doing?
Heidi Sabnani (10:39):
I was scared that I wasn't gonna be able to find
the answers to the questionsthat I'd always.
And I think that's the thing.
One of the, one of the issuesfor me as a child learning was
that really did wanna know why.
I wanted to know like the, thereason behind things and why
things work and if there wereconnections and like there were
always clues, right?
While my graduate work andthings were, was in world
(11:01):
literature, but I'm alwayslooking for like the connecting
points between literature fromdifferent countries around the
world and like what themes arethere.
And like I love readingmysteries for like for fun.
And so it was like this idea oflike, I've always been pulling
at those, those patterns andthose pieces, but no one ever
told me that was mathematical.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:18):
So like how did you then go from, so you're,
you're here, you're like, I'mgonna learn the math, and then I
guess somewhere along the lineyou're like, this is the work
I'm gonna do.
I'm gonna help teachers withtheir own anxiety around math.
Is that what happens?
Heidi Sabnani (11:30):
Yeah.
it started out not, you know, inthe beginning I was looking at
it from a student lens and then.
more I got into it, I was like,no.
Like where I spend my time andthe people who I have the most
opportunities for impact areadult learners.
And so I needed to switch thatbecause adult learners are the
ones who impact students.
And so if I wanna make a bigenough difference in like the
(11:53):
student situation, like theseteachers are going to have, you
know, anywhere from 20 to 30kids every year that they're
impacting and that they'rebuilding these systems for.
So if I want to impact thelargest number of students, then
I need to think about what am Idoing to help their teachers?
Vanessa Vakharia (12:08):
There's so much like discourse out there
around you know, how to mitigatemath anxiety, and I'm curious
how you feel about the idea thatlike the only way to help
someone become less anxiousaround math is to like teach
them more math.
Like what are the things youthink really move the dial when
it comes to a teacher'srelationship with math?
Like what are your things whereyou're like, I'm gonna go in,
(12:30):
someone hires you and they'relike, Heidi, you've got six
hours.
Like do, like, do make, do youmake some sort of transformation
happen?
What are your like go-to tools?
Heidi Sabnani (12:39):
So a couple of things.
I ask, just as, as you've asked,I often ask teachers to give me
their mathology.
Their biography of how they'veexperienced math and what their
situation is.
Because I think that's socritical to really understanding
where people are coming from.
And asking them like, what isyour goal for this work that
we're about to do?
Is it so that you can help yourhigh schooler as a parent?
(13:03):
Or is it so that you can have adeeper understanding of the
mathematics that you areteaching in your classroom?
Because I think one of thethings that we miss so often is
the depth of the mathematicsthat we are asking young
learners to learn.
We treat it as building blocksto calculus or being mindset or
(13:25):
whatever it is, and I'm like,no, the math that these children
are learning is deep andinterconnected and, and they
should have time and space toreally learn that, right?
So then how do we help teachershave that same experience?
So when I go in, it is not likeI am not ever giving my
(13:47):
elementary school teachersalgebra, calculus problems to
do.
And I know there are people whodo that.
They're like, oh, we just needto give them more math and, and
have them work on challenging,like, no, I can also come up
with things that are challengingand different ways of thinking
about and learning things in thecontent that actually matters to
them
Vanessa Vakharia (14:07):
So, okay.
Yeah.
Heidi Sabnani (14:08):
that they're gonna use immediately versus
just like, okay, we're, we'regonna sit through and work.
No one's gonna wanna come toyour.
Vanessa Vakharia (14:17):
Right.
Heidi Sabnani (14:18):
No.
You know, like yes, when I workwith teachers, we do math, we
do, but it's meaningful math forwhat they're going to be doing
Vanessa Vakharia (14:28):
So you're.
Heidi Sabnani (14:29):
It's meaningful math
Vanessa Vakharia (14:30):
it's meaningful math.
Heidi Sabnani (14:32):
with their
Vanessa Vakharia (14:32):
Meaningful math for what they're gonna do
with their students so that theycan understand it more in depth
and feel more confident teachingtheir students like in the
classroom.
Okay, so you're in there.
You've asked them for their mathstory, so they understand why
they got there.
You've asked them for theirgoals of what they wanna get
outta the session.
Now you're doing meaningfulmath.
What's next?
Heidi Sabnani (14:49):
So what structures do we have in
coaching that we can leveragefor working with teachers with
math anxiety?
If we really wanna work on howteachers are teaching
mathematics, we have to focuson, okay, what's the thing that
they're working on right now?
So I have teachers that workwith me.
We are doing a problem that'swhat they're doing within the
Vanessa Vakharia (15:09):
Okay.
Heidi Sabnani (15:10):
If they're not using it within the next week,
Vanessa Vakharia (15:12):
Got it.
Heidi Sabnani (15:13):
it they have to have the opportunity to like
feel like they're leaving withsomething in their toolbox.
So we do that kind of contentwork and we think about like
building a system for them thatis gonna allow them to have the
questions that they often are soamazing at.
(15:33):
So I will go in and work withthem in their literacy
classrooms and take notes of allthe questions that they asked,
and then we'll sit down and say,okay, like what questions here
can you also use in
Vanessa Vakharia (15:44):
Like, gimme an example.
Heidi Sabnani (15:47):
So what might happen next?
What?
What
Vanessa Vakharia (15:51):
Oh,
Heidi Sabnani (15:52):
in this piece
Vanessa Vakharia (15:53):
so you're saying like the,
Heidi Sabnani (15:54):
that you
Vanessa Vakharia (15:55):
The teachers are already really good at
asking these types of questions.
They just dunno how to translatethat skill they already have
into a math class.
Oh my god, I love this.
Okay.
Heidi Sabnani (16:04):
So I'm like, okay,
Vanessa Vakharia (16:06):
Right.
Heidi Sabnani (16:07):
but you just do it in literacy and why are you
doing it in literacy?
And they're like, well, I feelcomfortable with if a student
says something that I'm not sureabout, like I have the tools to
go back to.
I'm like, okay, so what is itgonna take for you to feel that
same way if you were to ask thatquestion
Vanessa Vakharia (16:22):
Okay.
Heidi Sabnani (16:24):
What do you think happiness or what might you do
next?
And if the kid says somethingthat they don't understand, I'm
like, okay, so like what do youdo when you're asking that
question literacy?
Well, then I ask them a followup question.
I ask them, could you explainyour thinking?
Can we draw out what you thinkmight happen.
So you can understand, because Imean little children sometimes
are not the clearestcommunicators.
(16:46):
And so like how do we help themwith that?
And so we have thoseconversations of how to build in
those pieces.
And then we work the math,that's gonna help them feel
comfortable answering thosetypes of questions or asking for
more depth in those moments.
So it's like this cycle thathappens.
(17:07):
Um, and so when I work withcoaches and that, I'm like
teaching them like how to.
Conduct meetings in that way,you have to have a different
lens than the lens that we havewhen we're strictly just
coaching the math anxiety piece,because we're often coaching
then for like, okay, we have toget through this.
We have to do this.
I'm held to the fire for this,like for us to be at this point
(17:30):
in the pacing,
Vanessa Vakharia (17:31):
I really, really like this approach.
It kind of feels like it's likemulti-pronged and there's like a
bit of a holistic thing of like,number one, we're hearing where
you're coming from, like whatyour anxieties are, what story
you're coming from.
Number two, what your goals are.
Number three, we're gonna gothrough a math concept that
you've gotta teach that you needto get more confidence in.
Number four, we're gonna takeskills you're already using in
other domains, and we're gonnajust figure out how to apply
(17:51):
them to math class and what youneed to do that confidently.
Am I right?
Am I getting this right?
Heidi Sabnani (17:56):
Yeah.
And then we, the last thing, wereally reflect on it.
So writing has been shown, likeeven if you are like before a
test, and it's one of the thingsthat I've said to kids and I
like, Howie gives the fiveminutes before where they could
look at the test.
Other times you just have kidsdo a brain dump of, okay, what
do you know?
What are you worried about?
What do you like?
Get all the
Vanessa Vakharia (18:17):
I need to do that right now.
Heidi Sabnani (18:19):
and then they can focus on.
Then they could focus on thething that they're about to do.
Right.
So it's, it's very different.
Like, just think about it.
I mean, I have like a list hereon my table of all the things
that I, I have a senior, likeall the things that we need to
do, like we order the prom dresscheck, like the, like all the,
all the
Vanessa Vakharia (18:36):
Right.
Heidi Sabnani (18:37):
Like, so that it doesn't have to sit in my mind.
We can do that same thing withteachers.
Okay.
So we've done this work nowwhere we're gonna reflect on it
and then we're gonna check backin, in the next cycle to see how
you're doing.
Vanessa Vakharia (18:47):
So my question, so I love this.
So wait, when do they do thebrain dump?
When am I doing the brain dump?
Like, does this happen everyday?
Does it happen at the end of thesession?
Heidi Sabnani (18:56):
So, yeah, at the end of the
Vanessa Vakharia (18:58):
Okay.
At the end of the sessionthey're like, okay, all here's
all this stuff I've gotta getoutta my mind.
So what are some things theymight write on that piece of
paper that you've seen peoplewrite?
Heidi Sabnani (19:06):
So sometimes it's like, I don't like open number
lines,
Vanessa Vakharia (19:10):
Oh.
Heidi Sabnani (19:11):
but like I've been working on that with Heidi
and so like what is the questionthat I can ask?
Like they'll look at a problemthat they have coming up.
Let me just sketch out what thatmight be.
I'm gonna sketch out an idea ofhow I could record student think
on a number line.
I know I don't like using it,that's one of the things I wanna
get better at.
So they will like put that down.
They'll put like, okay, rememberto pause and think.
(19:31):
You don't have to answer a kid'swithin the first half,
Vanessa Vakharia (19:36):
So this brain dump is like things I'm
concerned about, plus solutionsthat I can use in the moment.
So I have on my piece of paperall of my concerns and kind of a
fix for them that I can carryaround with me.
Heidi Sabnani (19:48):
Yes.
Vanessa Vakharia (19:49):
My question is, so I love this.
My question is, you can't dothis for every single problem
they have to teach every singleday.
Right.
So like it,
Heidi Sabnani (19:56):
correct.
Vanessa Vakharia (19:57):
the, what is the long-term plan here?
Because this sounds like this isthe best day ever.
And like you would leave beinglike, all right, I'm ready to
teach my next lesson.
I've got a plan, I've, whatever.
How does this translate intolike them feeling more confident
every single day?
Heidi Sabnani (20:10):
So I like to plan at least weekly.
So like we're gonna plan a chunkof the week, so we look at,
okay, what's the story of themath that we're doing over this,
this time period?
And so part of that is like,you're gonna do that with me,
but I'm also trying to buildsystems each do that with each
other.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:29):
I love that.
Heidi Sabnani (20:30):
Because at some point, funding may go away.
I will not be there.
Funding may go away.
Their coach may not be there.
What systems are you building
Vanessa Vakharia (20:37):
Mm-hmm.
Heidi Sabnani (20:38):
Because even if you can do this same process,
even if I'm not there, I meanlike, please hire me, I'll come
but it's that idea of you canalso build this system yourself.
And if you're an administrator,like administrators run into the
same thing, they'll come in andthey'll be like, oh, we're so
glad you're here because wedon't know what to do with the
math.
And I'm like, how are you, howare you communicating that with
(21:02):
your teachers?
does that feel like for you?
How do you feel when you need togo in and give them feedback on
their math lessons?
Do you know?
So like it, it's this biggersystem that we deal with that
how are we like refocusing thosestructures?
Vanessa Vakharia (21:18):
okay, I love all of this and I'm thinking
about those teachers who Ireally believe, like, you know,
there's so much discourse rightnow around being like, oh,
teachers don't wanna change.
They just wanna keep liketeaching the way they've always
been teaching.
And I really believe, and I'mcurious what you think, I
believe that most people who arein that mindset are scared.
Like they, I don't believe thatpeople are just like, I'm the
(21:39):
best.
I know.
I mean, I'm, I'm sure somepeople think that what they're
doing is working.
I'm actually sure that somepeople have seen evidence that
what they're doing is working.
Right?
Like I'm sure a lot of teachersare like, yes, I've been using
the algorithm and, and usingformulas and stuff, and kids
understand it.
I do think that most teachersare very well-meaning and being
like, I don't really see theproblem.
It's working.
And then other teachers arejust, you know, I think there's
(22:00):
a piece of it where they'relike, I'm scared to try this new
thing.
And they're probably scaredbecause they're, they have their
own anxiety around math.
So like in given that case, I'msure you encounter all the time
teachers who are like, I don'twant to try doing it this new
way.
What is your move there?
Heidi Sabnani (22:14):
So part of it is, i'll start back at the algorithm
and I'll move back and kind ofshow the progression across
grade levels and I'll say like,where is your grade level?
And then I say like, okay,considering your students, which
of these ways think about thestudents that you have?
Because our teachers do knowtheir students, do care about
their students, they do wantthem to do well.
(22:36):
So will look at that and saylike, oh, like this picture
would really help them.
I don't necessarily understandhow to use that picture.
Can you help me with that?
So like, they begin to noticethat because we've made
connecting points to the thingthat they've memorized and know
how to do to the things thatcome before.
(22:56):
But that takes time.
Like that's, that's like a PDday where we're doing a really
deep dive into it, not just likea five minute conversation.
And I, I think that's the, thebalancing point that we have to
think about is like whatopportunities we're providing
our students with that.
I had a, at the beginning of theschool year where like that
happened.
I had like shown a, aprogression and a teacher, like
(23:19):
literally like threw her stuffand she's like, this, this is
the why I've been so reticent toteach with in this way is
because I didn't know this.
Now that I know, like that's whyI'm afraid.
She was like, I didn'tunderstand the connection
between the two.
And it's like sometimes it'sjust helping teachers see that.
(23:40):
And saying like, you, youlearned that way, like that
works for you.
Is it working for all yourstudents?
Because that's probably not.
Vanessa Vakharia (23:49):
Well, I think it's so crazy because it's like,
what I'm really hearing in thisconversation, and I, you're not
the first person who said this,but you're, you're really
illustrating it, is like the keyis giving the teacher who has
their anxiety around math, amathematical experience where
they get to experience math in adifferent way and then have this
moment of like, oh my God, thatfelt really good for me.
(24:12):
I would like to do this for mystudents, now I know that it's
possible.
But how crazy is it that thewhole system of where this can
happen is not at teacherscollege.
It has to be this completelyseparate thing that happens in
the field when teachers arealready teaching.
Like I'm just kind of like, why?
Like does this not seem a bitwild to you?
(24:34):
And is like dependent onfunding?
Heidi Sabnani (24:36):
It is.
It is.
And like I will say, there aredefinitely spaces in pre-service
teacher work where people aredoing work with.
pre-service teachers with mathanxiety like that is happening,
but it's pockets, it's not likea consistent part.
We don't have here in the us andI don't know if
Vanessa Vakharia (24:53):
We don't.
Heidi Sabnani (24:54):
there's not like a
Vanessa Vakharia (24:55):
Absolutely not.
Heidi Sabnani (24:56):
of math, like classes you need to take, you
Vanessa Vakharia (25:00):
No.
Heidi Sabnani (25:00):
You get into, you know, like all of those things.
We, we don't have a, like anykind of systematic way of like
saying Okay, as a educator ofpre-service teachers, I'm gonna
make sure these things happen.
It's very much dependent on whoyou get.
And so then we have,
Vanessa Vakharia (25:17):
Which is kind of crazy.
Like think about it, if you wentto med school, there's like a
standardized thing of things youneed to learn.
Heidi Sabnani (25:24):
Yes, yes.
And, and then like, or we'll askelementary school teachers to
take calculus three on theirassessment to get certification.
Vanessa Vakharia (25:39):
What.
Heidi Sabnani (25:39):
Like, but they're gonna be teaching second grade.
that's not the necessary thingfor them.
And so then we wonder like, oh,we have a teacher shortage.
know.
Well, maybe let's think aboutlike what we're doing, what the,
and I'm not saying thereshouldn't be some levels of
certification and like thereshould be, but like, it's this
idea of like, are we actuallyassessing the right things.
Vanessa Vakharia (25:59):
it's like the idea of being like, oh, an
elementary teacher will be moreready to teach math if they just
learn more math in the way thatthey did not understand math.
no.
Like it'll make more sense ifthey learn the math that they're
going to teach in a way thatthey finally understand.
Heidi Sabnani (26:14):
Exactly.
And like with the tools thatthey're gonna need to be using
in their classroom.
I mean, it is.
It is amazing.
Even with my new teachers, howfew of them ever experienced
using manipulatives in their ownschool experience, in their
teacher practicum
Vanessa Vakharia (26:32):
I'm actually scared of manipulatives.
Do you know that?
That's my main fear in math.
I have no memory of ever usingthem as a child.
And anytime I go into anelementary PD and they start
putting like those queasy airrods or whatever, the blocks,
the arrays, I don't even knowwhat, oh my God, are you gonna
pull one out?
Oh my God.
Like I have PTSD.
Like I can't even look at thatlittle Ziploc baggie of colored
things because I'm like, I don'tknow what to do with them.
(26:53):
And all the elementary teachersjust start being like, oh yes,
and now I've got 10 and now, andI'm like, I don't know what's
happening right now.
So like, I get it.
I actually understand
Heidi Sabnani (27:02):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And like I have a, one of thecoaches that, or an
interventionist that I'm withright now, she's like, I get it
out.
She's like, I know my kids needto use this, but you, you need
to work with me.
I need to be more comfortablewith this, she's like, because
I'm not.
I'm like, okay, we're gonna dothat.
not a problem.
So it's just that way ofthinking about it in a, in a
(27:25):
different way and giving access
Vanessa Vakharia (27:28):
It's interesting because this
conversation could have gone somany different ways, but what
has really been at the forefrontto me is, first of all, I love
that you walked us through kindof like what a day looks like of
how you can at least start thecycle of, of you know, how to
approach a teacher with math,anxiety, and at least get a
little movement through thosefive pieces of asking them their
(27:50):
story, asking them their goals.
Giving them a math experience,walking through'em through a
meaningful problem that they'regoing to have to do with
students.
having them transfer skills fromliteracy or something else else
they're teaching into math classand then having them do that
brain dump, right.
Of just being like, what are allthe concerns that are gonna rise
in the week?
'cause that's a really nicecycle.
That you can kind of do with anymath concept.
(28:12):
And I feel like if you do itover and over again, teachers
start getting used to it.
You're right.
They can form their own likeprofessional learning
communities in their ownschools.
They can help one another.
So I love that.
But also I think it's reallyimportant for us to know,
there's two pieces that youpointed out, which is you give
them the opportunity to talkabout their anxieties and their
story, and then you allow themto have an experience where they
(28:32):
experience math a little bitdifferently and.
It's cool because those thingsgo hand in hand, right?
It kind of shows us that like,like I always talk about,
believe, behave, become, and howit's important to address
beliefs, but it's also importantto give teachers or whoever the
learner is, a new experience, anew behavior, so they can see
those beliefs like actually cometo action.
(28:52):
So, I think you illustrated thatreally, really nicely, and
everyone should obviously hireyou to come into their schools
and transform theirenvironments.
And it's cool because you aredoing this work and you're,
you're kind of proving to all ofus that your relationship with
math, regardless of your age,does not have to stay the same.
There's one more thing Iactually really wanna know your
opinion on.
Heidi Sabnani (29:12):
Yep.
Vanessa Vakharia (29:13):
know how there's always these articles
that come out being like,teacher math, anxiety is
contagious, and like blah, blah,blah, blah, blah.
What would you say to theteacher who's like, I'm really
worried that I'm like infectingmy students with my math
anxiety.
Heidi Sabnani (29:26):
Interestingly enough, one, one of the teachers
who participated in my doctoralresearch, that was her whole
motivation for saying yes.
She was a, she's an amazingteacher.
And she was noticing that shehad kids in her classroom who
always needed to go to the nurseor the bathroom every time they
got to math.
(29:47):
she was like, and I am afraidthat my reticence is
transferring.
And so with her, this is wherewe started with literacy,'cause
she was like an amazing literacyteacher.
I said like, you're just notusing those skills that you have
there.
So let's start transferringthose over.
(30:08):
Let's start transferring thosequestions.
Let's start like giving yourselfsome time to breathe.
I think that the research showsthat teachers with math anxiety
spend 50% less time teachingmath, and they teach in ways
that are rote and are based onmemorization speed.
So if we look at just those twothings, less time teaching and
(30:31):
speed and memorization, we knowthat, that those two things,
having less time to work onsomething and being forced to
memorize it, some of the majorunderlying foundations of math
anxiety.
So it's a result, notnecessarily, I, I don't think
(30:52):
it's like the intent, I thinklike it becomes because of
those, those two factors.
Uh, I don't think it'scontagious.
I do think that mindsets becontagious.
You know, if you, if you're everaround someone who's like super
negative about something likethat, that begins to permeate,
(31:14):
right?
Or you have someone who's, who'salways like, really excited
about every brand new day andwhat, like those things are
contagious.
And so we have to think aboutand just be mindful of what is
our thinking and how we, um,create, what is our mindset when
we go into that.
But I think that through thatreflection piece.
(31:37):
And through the pointing out thethings that they're really good
at already, they're like, youare really good at this.
You do have the skills to dothis, and then let's reflect and
brain dump on it.
So then you're not thinkingabout those things when you're
going in
Vanessa Vakharia (31:49):
I really think that's so awesome how you said
that.
And like I wonder if, like, thisis what I always say and I'm
curious what your thoughts areon it.
I'm like, your mindset is onething, right?
Like, so I actually like yourexample of being like, imagine a
really a negative person orwhatever, right?
Your mindset is one thing.
I just actually am reading thenew Lena Dunham book, which
seems like it would not berelated to this conversation,
but it is because she says thather father always says something
(32:13):
like, there's no such thing as abad thought there, it's it,
there's no such thing as anegative thought, there is such
a thing as a negative action.
Like often we can't help ourthoughts, we're working on them,
whatever.
But what you do with yourthoughts is what matters.
So like your mindset is onething, like you being like, Ugh,
I really don't think I'm a mathperson, is one thing.
But then the action you take asa result, so the action might be
teaching less math or refusingto teach, you know, change the
(32:34):
way you teach.
Or expressing to the classroom,I hate math, I was born with a
math deficiency.
Like that action is the thingthat actually has the effect.
So even if you're listening tothis and you're like, oh, but I
do have a negative mindsetaround math.
If you're reflective on that,like Heidi says, and you pick
your action with thoughtfulness,for example, saying to your
class, you know what guys, like,I do have a bad attitude around
(32:55):
math, but it's something I'vedeveloped, it's not something
I'm born with and I'm working onit.
'cause I know it's not like, me,you know, I wanna, whatever
that, ultimately it is thebelieve, behave, become in a
way, but do you, do you agree?
Like, it's like kind of the wayyou the action you take as a
result of your mindset is theactual piece that matters.
And obviously we want you tochange your mindset, but in the
process of doing that, as longas you take thoughtfully aligned
(33:16):
action, it's okay for you to notfeel so great about math.
You're not like.
Heidi Sabnani (33:21):
Yes.
I mean, and, and.
It will change from day to day.
I will walk into spacessometimes even now or someone
will have something and I'mlike, it just freaks me out.
And I'm like okay I need topause and and Or like some
ridiculous problem.
I remember being in a sessionwith.
It was a regional, teachers ofmathematics thing and someone
(33:43):
who like I really respect, likeput this problem up on the
board.
And I was there with someteachers I worked with and I was
like, oh, my word.
Like gross, like what is that?
Like?
And, and I don't
Vanessa Vakharia (33:57):
Right.
Heidi Sabnani (33:57):
that.
And I'm here with like teachersthat I work with and now they're
gonna see me and, and know thatI like, am not unsure about how
to do this.
I was sitting next to Molly andMolly was like, that problem's
disgusting.
I'm not doing it.
Vanessa Vakharia (34:09):
Okay.
Heidi Sabnani (34:10):
And like someone else from the back was like,
well just look at the structureof that.
And I was like, I didn't eventhink that, like my brain short
circuited in that moment.
And if I had been able to pauseand think, and so that's what,
that was the conversation I hadwith my teachers.
I was like, because we all wentto that same place.
We all went to like, oh, Butlike looking for that structure
(34:32):
in that moment, giving yourselfa pause like that will still
happen.
I will still walk into spaceswhere I'm like, I don't know
that I should be here, Someonemade me feel a certain kind of
way about it, but done the work,I'm here, like I'm working on it
like none of us have arrived.
We're all working on things.
And so give yourself some timeand space in that moment and
(34:53):
like you can do the thing.
You just have to give yourselfsome time.
Vanessa Vakharia (34:58):
Okay.
Final two questions.
Someone is listening to this.
They're like, wow, I loveeverything.
Okay.
You have 30 seconds to answerthis a time test, so not okay of
me.
Okay.
So someone's listening, they'relike, I love all of this, and
like, Ugh, I would love Heidi tocome help us at our school.
But the thing is, I'm just not amath person, so it's just not
gonna work.
What would you say.
Heidi Sabnani (35:15):
Yeah, I would say, um, what We can also talk
literacy.
Let's talk literacy first, and,and then I'll show you how that
connects to mathematics, I dowork in both of those spaces.
Um, but it is like.
You are, you are a person whointeracts with mathematics in
some form or another.
So let's start with that.
(35:36):
And let's start with the thingsthat you're comfortable with.
If it's literacy, we're gonnastart there and we're gonna show
you how those things connect tomath.
And then I'm gonna make you amath person
Vanessa Vakharia (35:43):
Ah, I really like the emphasis you've made on
the connection of you haveskills in this other area you
feel comfortable in, let me showyou how they connect in math,
because that's something I do alot in my work, I call it like
your math superpower.
We're just using differentlanguage for the same thing of
being like, you're good, youfeel good about these things,
you're just not seeing how thoseapply in math.
So, I love that so much, and Ithink that has to do with
(36:05):
broadening our definition ofwhat math is like asking good
questions.
You do that in literacy andyou're good at it.
You feel good about it.
Guess what?
Asking good questions is a mathskill, so love that.
Okay, last question.
If there was one thing you couldchange about the way math is
taught, what would it be?
Is that my question?
Is there there one thing youcould change about math class?
I can't even remember itanymore.
(36:26):
Whatever.
Heidi, answer one of those in 30seconds.
Heidi Sabnani (36:32):
I wish that we had more time and fewer
standards.
I think that would make a, areally big difference.
And I think like looking atthings in a more connected way.
You know, during theRenaissance, you were not
regardless of when and where ithappened in your country.
(36:54):
You are not solely a math personor a literacy person or art
person, or a sculptor or what,like it was a, it was the
combination of all of thosethings together.
And we so much teach things insilos now we don't allow
students to see theconnectedness between all of
those pieces of life.
And so I, I wish that we couldchange that, and help students
(37:17):
see that the skills that they'relearning in math help them in
other spaces as
Vanessa Vakharia (37:21):
You know what is so interesting that when you
just said that, I just gotgoosebumps because I was like, I
was getting this deja vu and Iremembered my last guest, Dr.
Edward Doolittle, who's in, he'sa, an indigenous math expert in
Canada.
He talked about how this exactsame thing, he put it in
different words, but he said inindigenous cultures we, they
have sages, right?
There's just a sage that's likea knower of things.
(37:44):
It's not like a math stage andan English right?
It's like this idea of like thiscollective wisdom, this holistic
wisdom.
And you're right, I think thereis something to this siloed
approach where like a lot ofthings actually are not siloed.
You know what I mean?
Like it's like almost like wecome up, we have this word like
the arts, and that actuallyencompasses a lot of things, but
math is only this one thing.
(38:07):
And it's, I really, that isgonna leave me thinking, that's
gonna leave us all thinking thatidea of like less silos, more
just wisdom.
Like what is wisdom and why ismathematical wisdom just not a
part of this?
I'm now, I'm now over explainingbecause I think actually 30
seconds ago I had a mic drop andit was really good after your
(38:28):
mic drop and now we gotta endthis.
We're gonna end this.
I'm undoing the wisdom that Ijust shared.
That was actually not mine.
It was yours and Dr.
Edward Doolittle's.
Heidi Sabnani (38:40):
No, but I, I think that's like such a key
element of this work, is we haveto stop looking at it in, in
those ways.
And we have to start, it's theidea of when we try new things
that are outside our comfortzone, do we expect immediate
success?
(39:01):
You're a musician, I playedpiano for years and years and
years.
That didn't come from, like, Ijust sat down one day and I was
like a prodigy.
Those moments are rare, right?
So like, it takes time.
I learned to watercolor duringthe pandemic.
begrudgingly like all of thosethings, it takes time, right?
It takes time.
And you know what, it's justpaper.
like the person I've beenlearning with online, like,
(39:23):
she's like, it's just paper,throw it out..
Start over.
If we look at mathematics asproblem solving, then let's
solve real problems that matter.
And let's not just have them soisolated.
Vanessa Vakharia (39:36):
What a lovely conversation.
Honestly.
Thank you so much for makingtime.
Heidi Sabnani (39:40):
go on and
Vanessa Vakharia (39:40):
You are so, oh yeah, we could talk.
We were gonna have to do a parttwo.
We could talk forever.
Heidi, thank you so much.
You're amazing.
Thank you for being here.
Heidi Sabnani (39:48):
Well, thank you for having me.
I love it that we have met inreal life and we get to chat
about the work that you're doingand that I'm doing and like the
connection between the two.
'Cause again, it takes more thanone person.
Like it takes a whole communityof us doing this work to
actually
Vanessa Vakharia (40:01):
Yeah.
Well, thank you for being in thecommunity.
Oh.
I feel like me and Heidi areboth bad at saying bye.
I don't know that either of usis gonna do it.
She's waving.
Say it.
Goodbye
Heidi Sabnani (40:11):
Bye.
Vanessa Vakharia (40:14):
Okay, you know I love practical advice.
I love useful strategies.
And there is nothing I love morethan steps.
I love how Heidi broke herthinking down into clear steps
to show us that transformationcan happen with intentional,
consistent action.
And if you noticed, that was acornerstone of how she helps
teachers transform, throughconsistent learning, consistent
practice with differentapproaches to math, and
(40:36):
consistent support that helpsthem feel safe enough to try new
things.
If you're listening, regardlessof what anxiety you're trying to
work through right now, likemaybe it's math anxiety, but
maybe it's just anxiety aroundgetting organized or being
financially secure, travelingsolo, speaking your mind, I
don't know, but Heidi's messagestill works.
So commit to trying a newapproach consistently, week
(40:57):
after week, month after month.
When we try a new approach tosomething and stick to it, we
will get a different outcome.
It's basically guaranteed.
All right, before I say bye, orattempt to say bye, remember to
do two things.
Number one, text this episode toyour math people.
You know, the ones who need toknow they can change the way
they feel about math, and theones in charge of supporting
(41:18):
those who want to change the waythey feel about math, and the
ones who want to win a brand-newcalculator.
Because this brings me to thenext thing I want you to
remember, which is to enter ourgiveaway with Texas Instruments,
which includes a brand-new TI-84Evo with a four-year online
calculator license, a gettingstarted guide and calendar, and
a plushie keychain in a mysterycolor.
(41:39):
All you have to do is text thepodcast using the link in your
app and tell me you want in onthe TI giveaway by Tuesday, May
nineteenth.
I'll randomly pick a winner, andjust like that, the new TI-84
Evo is yours, baby.
All right, guys, that's all shewrote.
See you next week, same day,same channel, same unhinged
energy.
I will still walk into spaces where I'm like, I
don't know that I should behere, Someone made me feel a
certain kind of way about it,but done the work, I'm here,
none of us have arrived.
We're all working on things.
give yourself some time andspace in that moment and you can
do the thing.
give yourself some time.
Vanessa Vakharia (00:22):
Hello and welcome to this week's episode
of Math Therapy.
All right.
I first discovered today'sguest, Heidi Sabnani, at my very
first international matheducation conference, when I saw
her name on the program next toa talk description that had the
words math anxiety in it.
It was the first time I waslike, oh my God, there are other
people who care about thisstuff.
Well, little did I know HeidiSabnani has cared about this
(00:45):
stuff for a long time.
In fact, she's cared about itever since she developed math
anxiety herself as a youngstudent, and she decided to
conquer it as an adult so shecould help others never feel the
way she did.
Heidi has been an educator inmath and literacy for over 25
years, and her superpower iscoaching teachers on how to
overcome their own math anxiety.
(01:06):
And in today's episode, shewalks us through her exact
process with a step-by-stepplaybook to help teachers
transform.
We also discuss why so many ofus develop math anxiety because
of the way math is taught andhow anyone can learn a better
way regardless of how old youare or how gross you feel about
math.
Now, before we get into theepisode, I'm actually so excited
(01:27):
to say these words because it'sa first for Math Therapy, and I
get to sound like a real dealprofessional celeb podcaster.
And because I manifested this.
Okay.
I'm nervous.
Are you ready?
Fine.
Okay.
Here we go.
This episode of Math Therapy isbrought to you by Texas
Instruments.
Ah, I did it.
(01:47):
Oh my God.
It's true though, it's our firstsponsored episode.
Like I know that might not be asexciting for you as it is for
me, but first of all, that wasas much fun to say as I thought
it would be.
And second, if you know me, youknow I have been a Texas
Instruments girly since highschool, so I can think of no
other brand I'd wanna partnerwith first.
But even more exciting for youis that we're doing a giveaway
(02:08):
right now and you can win an OhMy Math box featuring their
brand new TI 84 Evo graphingcalculator and some other
goodies, including a plushiecalculator key chain, which is
literally just as cute as itsounds.
The TI 84 Evo is a graphingcalculator for like today's
classroom.
The best feature, is the newhome screen, which is super
(02:28):
intuitive and icon based, so youcan see everything you need and
like you're not digging aroundthrough menus to find features.
It kind of operates like asmartphone screen so it feels
familiar and super friendly.
So to enter, all you have to dois text the podcast using the
link in your app and tell me youwant in on the TI giveaway.
Your entry has to be received byTuesday, May 19th.
(02:48):
I'll randomly pick a winner andjust like that, the new TI 84
Evo is yours.
I did it, my first sponsoredmessage.
Okay.
Now let's get to today's guestbecause that is just as exciting
as the giveaway, I promise.
Here is my chat with HeidiSabnani.
Heidi, welcome to the podcast.
Heidi Sabnani (03:08):
Thank you so much for having me.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:10):
I was having a memory of the first time I met
you, so it was my first everNCTM, so I think it was 2022.
It was in La, like it was gonnaCalifornia.
And I remember looking throughthe program and I was like, oh
my God, somebody's talking aboutmath anxiety, I'm gonna go see
it.
And what I remember distinctly,is that your presentation has so
many GIFs in it.
(03:30):
Do we call it gif?
Or a gif?
I don't wanna start this debate,but what do you call it?
Heidi Sabnani (03:34):
GIF
Vanessa Vakharia (03:35):
God,
Heidi Sabnani (03:35):
it.
But I mean, I
Vanessa Vakharia (03:37):
no.
Heidi Sabnani (03:37):
wrong.
I mean, my, my teenagers are nothere to tell me if it, is it gif
or gif i, you know, I've saidboth.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:45):
okay.
Heidi Sabnani (03:45):
I'm from New England.
We don't pronounce all ourconsonants, so
Vanessa Vakharia (03:48):
Fine.
Yes.
Tomato, tomato, gif, gif.
I remember it had all thesefunny, I'm gonna use your
language'cause you're my guest,it had so many funny gifs on it.
And I was like, oh my God, thisis so cool.
But I remember leaving beinglike, honestly, you were the
first person.
I ever knew who was doing workon math anxiety.
Like I remember being like, ohmy gosh, this is the first time
(04:08):
I've heard somebody else talkabout this in a similar way that
I do.
So let's get into it.
When we do our talks, these arepeople who choose to go to a
conference.
So that's like one level of mathanxiety is the math anxiety
where you're like, I know I'manxious about math.
I wanna, you know, try and fixthat.
But then there's a whole otherlevel of so many folks who are
(04:29):
like, I have deep anxiety aboutmath and it's scary and I can't
face it.
So we're not getting thosepeople.
So I would love to know a littlebit more about like.
What can we do?
Like if there's a coach, ifthere's a teacher, if there's a
leader listening to this whatare some interventions that you
like, love?
Heidi Sabnani (04:44):
Yeah.
and I'll put myself firmly inthe camp of someone who
Vanessa Vakharia (04:47):
Same.
Heidi Sabnani (04:48):
and like, I've shared the story
Vanessa Vakharia (04:50):
Wait, share it now.
We don't all know the story.
I don't know.
Heidi Sabnani (04:54):
Okay.
So, have some mild dyscalculiaand dyslexia.
And a child in school, thingswere really, really challenging
for me, particularly when I wasin elementary school.
And I, um, came into fourthgrade and at the time, that was
when we were learningmultiplication facts and that
(05:16):
they made no sense to me.
And it was like this constantbattle.
And I had a teacher who, if Ilook back on it kindly now, like
with the best possible of, oflenses, was doing what had been
done for years.
And it's like, you know, shedivided the class into the kids
who were bright and movingforward and to those of us who
were not and weren't really asworthy of her time.
(05:39):
Um,
Vanessa Vakharia (05:42):
This is the best possible lens everyone.
Heidi Sabnani (05:45):
Yes, this is the best possible ones.
Um, but you know, but like whatshe know, right??
Like what she knew how to do,and it's like, oh, if you have
like this group of kids, it'ssuper bright and like you should
be pushing them and doing allthe things.
And my, um, situation was I hadto stay in at recess every day
to do more math work because Iwas so behind and, and all of
(06:05):
those things in one day, I hadhad enough and I threw my work
down and I went out to recesswith all my friends and I
remember her standing up at thetop of the, playground, like
screaming, Heidi Sabnani getback here.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:18):
Oh my God.
Heidi Sabnani (06:19):
um, it was like a huge thing.
my parents were mortified, therewere all sorts of repercussions.
My parents' response was like,we're gonna brute force this.
We're going to like help youmemorize and we're gonna work on
this.
And so I left that experienceand thought that math was
literally something to endureand something to memorize.
(06:41):
And so we worked on memorizingtools to help me memorize things
so that I wasn't switchingnumbers and, and letters made it
even more interesting when wegot in into those later times.
And so my whole goal in highschool was to take enough math
so that I
Vanessa Vakharia (06:57):
Hmm.
Were you diagnosed withdyscalculia and dyslexia at that
time, or
Heidi Sabnani (07:02):
No.
Vanessa Vakharia (07:02):
So you didn't even know, you were just like
experiencing this thing and likeyou didn't know what was up.
You were just like, this is justmaking things hard.
Okay.
Heidi Sabnani (07:10):
early, early
Vanessa Vakharia (07:11):
Yeah.
Yep, yep.
Yep.
Heidi Sabnani (07:12):
Unless it was like, you know, super severe
needs within, you were, you werenot getting any additonal
support.
Vanessa Vakharia (07:20):
The way, I always say is one of the major
causes of math trauma is havingan undiagnosed learning
difference and just feeling likethere's something wrong with you
and not being given the supportthat like exists.
Heidi Sabnani (07:28):
Yep.
a hundred percent true.
And so like, that was my wholething.
I went and, and chose a careerthat was not in math, not in
stem, like literacy a hundredpercent of the way.
Fast forward a whole bunch ofyears.
I'm working for the schoolimprovement division, one of the
divisions in Ohio.
And I had a co-teacher who wasgonna help support teachers in
(07:50):
the school improvement on math.
And I was gonna do literacy andit was gonna be this wonderful
like, situation where we couldwork with adults.
And I was so excited.
And, um, she decided like sixweeks in that she hated working
with adults and quit.
Boss was like, well, this is agrant funded position and we
can't find anyone, so it's gonnabe you.
You're just gonna do both mathand literacy.
(08:12):
And I said, um, I'm so sorry.
No, I have lived my entire life,like I'm in my thirties at this
point, with the goal to avoidbeing in math classrooms.
Like I'm not, I can't put myselfthrough that stress.
And she's like, oh, you're justgonna fake it till you make it
like it's high school.
It's primarily pedagogical needsthat they have.
And so you're gonna go in.
So I would go into theseclassrooms and go into these
(08:33):
meetings and be like, okay, sotoday we're gonna act like know
nothing.
And you're going to work with melike as if I'm a student.
And then I would go into theseclassrooms and the kids would
ask me questions and I'd belike, oh, what do you think
about that?
Like, talk me through yourprocess or like, what tools do
you have that
Vanessa Vakharia (08:50):
Okay.
Wait, so what, let me pausethough.
When, when they're asking youquestions, are you legitimately
like, I actually don't know theanswer.
I'm not even acting right now.
Okay.
You're method acting.
Heidi Sabnani (08:59):
yes, a hundred percent so at the end of that
school year, the district and myboss came to me and they're
like, you know, we felt this,this is went so well.
people just really appreciatethe fact that you're not like
telling them exactly do this orthat.
You're asking kids questions orasking them to, and I was like,
this is really backfiring on me.
(09:21):
And so in that moment, I startedlooking for and started taking
math classes again.
And so I went back and I waslike, if I'm gonna do this, if
I'm gonna be in this space.
And I, at that point, they werelike, we'd also love you to go
and work with the elementaryschools and the teachers there.
And I said, okay, if I'm gonnado that, I'm gonna.
My experience, and I'm gonnareteach myself in the ways that
(09:42):
I wish I had been taught.
And so I looked for, like theMarilyn Burns and the all, all
the things that have existed,but that I had did not seem to
have access to because peoplehave been doing this work.
Vanessa Vakharia (09:54):
This is kind of wild because this is so meta,
right?
This is like the matrix orwhat's that movie?
Inception, right?
With like all the, it's likethere's so many layers here
because it's like, now obviouslywe're gonna get to now in a
second, but I'm thinking abouthow, where our conversation is
about how to help teachers withtheir own math anxiety.
And you were that teacherbasically, like you were that
teacher with that math anxiety.
You're put in this role, which Ialmost feel as like exposure
(10:17):
therapy.
It's basically like you'rethere, you're doing it through
that somehow you get to thepoint where someone's like,
Heidi, you know what?
This was actually awesome.
We want you to keep doing this.
And then you're like, okay, I'mgonna guess I'm gonna learn more
math.
So my question is, at thispoint, are you scared of
learning more math or are youfeeling a bit confident because
you've done a good job so far atwhatever it is that you're
(10:38):
doing?
Heidi Sabnani (10:39):
I was scared that I wasn't gonna be able to find
the answers to the questionsthat I'd always.
And I think that's the thing.
One of the, one of the issuesfor me as a child learning was
that really did wanna know why.
I wanted to know like the, thereason behind things and why
things work and if there wereconnections and like there were
always clues, right?
While my graduate work andthings were, was in world
(11:01):
literature, but I'm alwayslooking for like the connecting
points between literature fromdifferent countries around the
world and like what themes arethere.
And like I love readingmysteries for like for fun.
And so it was like this idea oflike, I've always been pulling
at those, those patterns andthose pieces, but no one ever
told me that was mathematical.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:18):
So like how did you then go from, so you're,
you're here, you're like, I'mgonna learn the math, and then I
guess somewhere along the lineyou're like, this is the work
I'm gonna do.
I'm gonna help teachers withtheir own anxiety around math.
Is that what happens?
Heidi Sabnani (11:30):
Yeah.
it started out not, you know, inthe beginning I was looking at
it from a student lens and then.
more I got into it, I was like,no.
Like where I spend my time andthe people who I have the most
opportunities for impact areadult learners.
And so I needed to switch thatbecause adult learners are the
ones who impact students.
And so if I wanna make a bigenough difference in like the
(11:53):
student situation, like theseteachers are going to have, you
know, anywhere from 20 to 30kids every year that they're
impacting and that they'rebuilding these systems for.
So if I want to impact thelargest number of students, then
I need to think about what am Idoing to help their teachers?
Vanessa Vakharia (12:08):
There's so much like discourse out there
around you know, how to mitigatemath anxiety, and I'm curious
how you feel about the idea thatlike the only way to help
someone become less anxiousaround math is to like teach
them more math.
Like what are the things youthink really move the dial when
it comes to a teacher'srelationship with math?
Like what are your things whereyou're like, I'm gonna go in,
(12:30):
someone hires you and they'relike, Heidi, you've got six
hours.
Like do, like, do make, do youmake some sort of transformation
happen?
What are your like go-to tools?
Heidi Sabnani (12:39):
So a couple of things.
I ask, just as, as you've asked,I often ask teachers to give me
their mathology.
Their biography of how they'veexperienced math and what their
situation is.
Because I think that's socritical to really understanding
where people are coming from.
And asking them like, what isyour goal for this work that
we're about to do?
Is it so that you can help yourhigh schooler as a parent?
(13:03):
Or is it so that you can have adeeper understanding of the
mathematics that you areteaching in your classroom?
Because I think one of thethings that we miss so often is
the depth of the mathematicsthat we are asking young
learners to learn.
We treat it as building blocksto calculus or being mindset or
(13:25):
whatever it is, and I'm like,no, the math that these children
are learning is deep andinterconnected and, and they
should have time and space toreally learn that, right?
So then how do we help teachershave that same experience?
So when I go in, it is not likeI am not ever giving my
(13:47):
elementary school teachersalgebra, calculus problems to
do.
And I know there are people whodo that.
They're like, oh, we just needto give them more math and, and
have them work on challenging,like, no, I can also come up
with things that are challengingand different ways of thinking
about and learning things in thecontent that actually matters to
them
Vanessa Vakharia (14:07):
So, okay.
Yeah.
Heidi Sabnani (14:08):
that they're gonna use immediately versus
just like, okay, we're, we'regonna sit through and work.
No one's gonna wanna come toyour.
Vanessa Vakharia (14:17):
Right.
Heidi Sabnani (14:18):
No.
You know, like yes, when I workwith teachers, we do math, we
do, but it's meaningful math forwhat they're going to be doing
Vanessa Vakharia (14:28):
So you're.
Heidi Sabnani (14:29):
It's meaningful math
Vanessa Vakharia (14:30):
it's meaningful math.
Heidi Sabnani (14:32):
with their
Vanessa Vakharia (14:32):
Meaningful math for what they're gonna do
with their students so that theycan understand it more in depth
and feel more confident teachingtheir students like in the
classroom.
Okay, so you're in there.
You've asked them for their mathstory, so they understand why
they got there.
You've asked them for theirgoals of what they wanna get
outta the session.
Now you're doing meaningfulmath.
What's next?
Heidi Sabnani (14:49):
So what structures do we have in
coaching that we can leveragefor working with teachers with
math anxiety?
If we really wanna work on howteachers are teaching
mathematics, we have to focuson, okay, what's the thing that
they're working on right now?
So I have teachers that workwith me.
We are doing a problem that'swhat they're doing within the
Vanessa Vakharia (15:09):
Okay.
Heidi Sabnani (15:10):
If they're not using it within the next week,
Vanessa Vakharia (15:12):
Got it.
Heidi Sabnani (15:13):
it they have to have the opportunity to like
feel like they're leaving withsomething in their toolbox.
So we do that kind of contentwork and we think about like
building a system for them thatis gonna allow them to have the
questions that they often are soamazing at.
(15:33):
So I will go in and work withthem in their literacy
classrooms and take notes of allthe questions that they asked,
and then we'll sit down and say,okay, like what questions here
can you also use in
Vanessa Vakharia (15:44):
Like, gimme an example.
Heidi Sabnani (15:47):
So what might happen next?
What?
What
Vanessa Vakharia (15:51):
Oh,
Heidi Sabnani (15:52):
in this piece
Vanessa Vakharia (15:53):
so you're saying like the,
Heidi Sabnani (15:54):
that you
Vanessa Vakharia (15:55):
The teachers are already really good at
asking these types of questions.
They just dunno how to translatethat skill they already have
into a math class.
Oh my god, I love this.
Okay.
Heidi Sabnani (16:04):
So I'm like, okay,
Vanessa Vakharia (16:06):
Right.
Heidi Sabnani (16:07):
but you just do it in literacy and why are you
doing it in literacy?
And they're like, well, I feelcomfortable with if a student
says something that I'm not sureabout, like I have the tools to
go back to.
I'm like, okay, so what is itgonna take for you to feel that
same way if you were to ask thatquestion
Vanessa Vakharia (16:22):
Okay.
Heidi Sabnani (16:24):
What do you think happiness or what might you do
next?
And if the kid says somethingthat they don't understand, I'm
like, okay, so like what do youdo when you're asking that
question literacy?
Well, then I ask them a followup question.
I ask them, could you explainyour thinking?
Can we draw out what you thinkmight happen.
So you can understand, because Imean little children sometimes
are not the clearestcommunicators.
(16:46):
And so like how do we help themwith that?
And so we have thoseconversations of how to build in
those pieces.
And then we work the math,that's gonna help them feel
comfortable answering thosetypes of questions or asking for
more depth in those moments.
So it's like this cycle thathappens.
(17:07):
Um, and so when I work withcoaches and that, I'm like
teaching them like how to.
Conduct meetings in that way,you have to have a different
lens than the lens that we havewhen we're strictly just
coaching the math anxiety piece,because we're often coaching
then for like, okay, we have toget through this.
We have to do this.
I'm held to the fire for this,like for us to be at this point
(17:30):
in the pacing,
Vanessa Vakharia (17:31):
I really, really like this approach.
It kind of feels like it's likemulti-pronged and there's like a
bit of a holistic thing of like,number one, we're hearing where
you're coming from, like whatyour anxieties are, what story
you're coming from.
Number two, what your goals are.
Number three, we're gonna gothrough a math concept that
you've gotta teach that you needto get more confidence in.
Number four, we're gonna takeskills you're already using in
other domains, and we're gonnajust figure out how to apply
(17:51):
them to math class and what youneed to do that confidently.
Am I right?
Am I getting this right?
Heidi Sabnani (17:56):
Yeah.
And then we, the last thing, wereally reflect on it.
So writing has been shown, likeeven if you are like before a
test, and it's one of the thingsthat I've said to kids and I
like, Howie gives the fiveminutes before where they could
look at the test.
Other times you just have kidsdo a brain dump of, okay, what
do you know?
What are you worried about?
What do you like?
Get all the
Vanessa Vakharia (18:17):
I need to do that right now.
Heidi Sabnani (18:19):
and then they can focus on.
Then they could focus on thething that they're about to do.
Right.
So it's, it's very different.
Like, just think about it.
I mean, I have like a list hereon my table of all the things
that I, I have a senior, likeall the things that we need to
do, like we order the prom dresscheck, like the, like all the,
all the
Vanessa Vakharia (18:36):
Right.
Heidi Sabnani (18:37):
Like, so that it doesn't have to sit in my mind.
We can do that same thing withteachers.
Okay.
So we've done this work nowwhere we're gonna reflect on it
and then we're gonna check backin, in the next cycle to see how
you're doing.
Vanessa Vakharia (18:47):
So my question, so I love this.
So wait, when do they do thebrain dump?
When am I doing the brain dump?
Like, does this happen everyday?
Does it happen at the end of thesession?
Heidi Sabnani (18:56):
So, yeah, at the end of the
Vanessa Vakharia (18:58):
Okay.
At the end of the sessionthey're like, okay, all here's
all this stuff I've gotta getoutta my mind.
So what are some things theymight write on that piece of
paper that you've seen peoplewrite?
Heidi Sabnani (19:06):
So sometimes it's like, I don't like open number
lines,
Vanessa Vakharia (19:10):
Oh.
Heidi Sabnani (19:11):
but like I've been working on that with Heidi
and so like what is the questionthat I can ask?
Like they'll look at a problemthat they have coming up.
Let me just sketch out what thatmight be.
I'm gonna sketch out an idea ofhow I could record student think
on a number line.
I know I don't like using it,that's one of the things I wanna
get better at.
So they will like put that down.
They'll put like, okay, rememberto pause and think.
(19:31):
You don't have to answer a kid'swithin the first half,
Vanessa Vakharia (19:36):
So this brain dump is like things I'm
concerned about, plus solutionsthat I can use in the moment.
So I have on my piece of paperall of my concerns and kind of a
fix for them that I can carryaround with me.
Heidi Sabnani (19:48):
Yes.
Vanessa Vakharia (19:49):
My question is, so I love this.
My question is, you can't dothis for every single problem
they have to teach every singleday.
Right.
So like it,
Heidi Sabnani (19:56):
correct.
Vanessa Vakharia (19:57):
the, what is the long-term plan here?
Because this sounds like this isthe best day ever.
And like you would leave beinglike, all right, I'm ready to
teach my next lesson.
I've got a plan, I've, whatever.
How does this translate intolike them feeling more confident
every single day?
Heidi Sabnani (20:10):
So I like to plan at least weekly.
So like we're gonna plan a chunkof the week, so we look at,
okay, what's the story of themath that we're doing over this,
this time period?
And so part of that is like,you're gonna do that with me,
but I'm also trying to buildsystems each do that with each
other.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:29):
I love that.
Heidi Sabnani (20:30):
Because at some point, funding may go away.
I will not be there.
Funding may go away.
Their coach may not be there.
What systems are you building
Vanessa Vakharia (20:37):
Mm-hmm.
Heidi Sabnani (20:38):
Because even if you can do this same process,
even if I'm not there, I meanlike, please hire me, I'll come
but it's that idea of you canalso build this system yourself.
And if you're an administrator,like administrators run into the
same thing, they'll come in andthey'll be like, oh, we're so
glad you're here because wedon't know what to do with the
math.
And I'm like, how are you, howare you communicating that with
(21:02):
your teachers?
does that feel like for you?
How do you feel when you need togo in and give them feedback on
their math lessons?
Do you know?
So like it, it's this biggersystem that we deal with that
how are we like refocusing thosestructures?
Vanessa Vakharia (21:18):
okay, I love all of this and I'm thinking
about those teachers who Ireally believe, like, you know,
there's so much discourse rightnow around being like, oh,
teachers don't wanna change.
They just wanna keep liketeaching the way they've always
been teaching.
And I really believe, and I'mcurious what you think, I
believe that most people who arein that mindset are scared.
Like they, I don't believe thatpeople are just like, I'm the
(21:39):
best.
I know.
I mean, I'm, I'm sure somepeople think that what they're
doing is working.
I'm actually sure that somepeople have seen evidence that
what they're doing is working.
Right?
Like I'm sure a lot of teachersare like, yes, I've been using
the algorithm and, and usingformulas and stuff, and kids
understand it.
I do think that most teachersare very well-meaning and being
like, I don't really see theproblem.
It's working.
And then other teachers arejust, you know, I think there's
(22:00):
a piece of it where they'relike, I'm scared to try this new
thing.
And they're probably scaredbecause they're, they have their
own anxiety around math.
So like in given that case, I'msure you encounter all the time
teachers who are like, I don'twant to try doing it this new
way.
What is your move there?
Heidi Sabnani (22:14):
So part of it is, i'll start back at the algorithm
and I'll move back and kind ofshow the progression across
grade levels and I'll say like,where is your grade level?
And then I say like, okay,considering your students, which
of these ways think about thestudents that you have?
Because our teachers do knowtheir students, do care about
their students, they do wantthem to do well.
(22:36):
So will look at that and saylike, oh, like this picture
would really help them.
I don't necessarily understandhow to use that picture.
Can you help me with that?
So like, they begin to noticethat because we've made
connecting points to the thingthat they've memorized and know
how to do to the things thatcome before.
(22:56):
But that takes time.
Like that's, that's like a PDday where we're doing a really
deep dive into it, not just likea five minute conversation.
And I, I think that's the, thebalancing point that we have to
think about is like whatopportunities we're providing
our students with that.
I had a, at the beginning of theschool year where like that
happened.
I had like shown a, aprogression and a teacher, like
(23:19):
literally like threw her stuffand she's like, this, this is
the why I've been so reticent toteach with in this way is
because I didn't know this.
Now that I know, like that's whyI'm afraid.
She was like, I didn'tunderstand the connection
between the two.
And it's like sometimes it'sjust helping teachers see that.
(23:40):
And saying like, you, youlearned that way, like that
works for you.
Is it working for all yourstudents?
Because that's probably not.
Vanessa Vakharia (23:49):
Well, I think it's so crazy because it's like,
what I'm really hearing in thisconversation, and I, you're not
the first person who said this,but you're, you're really
illustrating it, is like the keyis giving the teacher who has
their anxiety around math, amathematical experience where
they get to experience math in adifferent way and then have this
moment of like, oh my God, thatfelt really good for me.
(24:12):
I would like to do this for mystudents, now I know that it's
possible.
But how crazy is it that thewhole system of where this can
happen is not at teacherscollege.
It has to be this completelyseparate thing that happens in
the field when teachers arealready teaching.
Like I'm just kind of like, why?
Like does this not seem a bitwild to you?
(24:34):
And is like dependent onfunding?
Heidi Sabnani (24:36):
It is.
It is.
And like I will say, there aredefinitely spaces in pre-service
teacher work where people aredoing work with.
pre-service teachers with mathanxiety like that is happening,
but it's pockets, it's not likea consistent part.
We don't have here in the us andI don't know if
Vanessa Vakharia (24:53):
We don't.
Heidi Sabnani (24:54):
there's not like a
Vanessa Vakharia (24:55):
Absolutely not.
Heidi Sabnani (24:56):
of math, like classes you need to take, you
Vanessa Vakharia (25:00):
No.
Heidi Sabnani (25:00):
You get into, you know, like all of those things.
We, we don't have a, like anykind of systematic way of like
saying Okay, as a educator ofpre-service teachers, I'm gonna
make sure these things happen.
It's very much dependent on whoyou get.
And so then we have,
Vanessa Vakharia (25:17):
Which is kind of crazy.
Like think about it, if you wentto med school, there's like a
standardized thing of things youneed to learn.
Heidi Sabnani (25:24):
Yes, yes.
And, and then like, or we'll askelementary school teachers to
take calculus three on theirassessment to get certification.
Vanessa Vakharia (25:39):
What.
Heidi Sabnani (25:39):
Like, but they're gonna be teaching second grade.
that's not the necessary thingfor them.
And so then we wonder like, oh,we have a teacher shortage.
know.
Well, maybe let's think aboutlike what we're doing, what the,
and I'm not saying thereshouldn't be some levels of
certification and like thereshould be, but like, it's this
idea of like, are we actuallyassessing the right things.
Vanessa Vakharia (25:59):
it's like the idea of being like, oh, an
elementary teacher will be moreready to teach math if they just
learn more math in the way thatthey did not understand math.
no.
Like it'll make more sense ifthey learn the math that they're
going to teach in a way thatthey finally understand.
Heidi Sabnani (26:14):
Exactly.
And like with the tools thatthey're gonna need to be using
in their classroom.
I mean, it is.
It is amazing.
Even with my new teachers, howfew of them ever experienced
using manipulatives in their ownschool experience, in their
teacher practicum
Vanessa Vakharia (26:32):
I'm actually scared of manipulatives.
Do you know that?
That's my main fear in math.
I have no memory of ever usingthem as a child.
And anytime I go into anelementary PD and they start
putting like those queasy airrods or whatever, the blocks,
the arrays, I don't even knowwhat, oh my God, are you gonna
pull one out?
Oh my God.
Like I have PTSD.
Like I can't even look at thatlittle Ziploc baggie of colored
things because I'm like, I don'tknow what to do with them.
(26:53):
And all the elementary teachersjust start being like, oh yes,
and now I've got 10 and now, andI'm like, I don't know what's
happening right now.
So like, I get it.
I actually understand
Heidi Sabnani (27:02):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And like I have a, one of thecoaches that, or an
interventionist that I'm withright now, she's like, I get it
out.
She's like, I know my kids needto use this, but you, you need
to work with me.
I need to be more comfortablewith this, she's like, because
I'm not.
I'm like, okay, we're gonna dothat.
not a problem.
So it's just that way ofthinking about it in a, in a
(27:25):
different way and giving access
Vanessa Vakharia (27:28):
It's interesting because this
conversation could have gone somany different ways, but what
has really been at the forefrontto me is, first of all, I love
that you walked us through kindof like what a day looks like of
how you can at least start thecycle of, of you know, how to
approach a teacher with math,anxiety, and at least get a
little movement through thosefive pieces of asking them their
(27:50):
story, asking them their goals.
Giving them a math experience,walking through'em through a
meaningful problem that they'regoing to have to do with
students.
having them transfer skills fromliteracy or something else else
they're teaching into math classand then having them do that
brain dump, right.
Of just being like, what are allthe concerns that are gonna rise
in the week?
'cause that's a really nicecycle.
That you can kind of do with anymath concept.
(28:12):
And I feel like if you do itover and over again, teachers
start getting used to it.
You're right.
They can form their own likeprofessional learning
communities in their ownschools.
They can help one another.
So I love that.
But also I think it's reallyimportant for us to know,
there's two pieces that youpointed out, which is you give
them the opportunity to talkabout their anxieties and their
story, and then you allow themto have an experience where they
(28:32):
experience math a little bitdifferently and.
It's cool because those thingsgo hand in hand, right?
It kind of shows us that like,like I always talk about,
believe, behave, become, and howit's important to address
beliefs, but it's also importantto give teachers or whoever the
learner is, a new experience, anew behavior, so they can see
those beliefs like actually cometo action.
(28:52):
So, I think you illustrated thatreally, really nicely, and
everyone should obviously hireyou to come into their schools
and transform theirenvironments.
And it's cool because you aredoing this work and you're,
you're kind of proving to all ofus that your relationship with
math, regardless of your age,does not have to stay the same.
There's one more thing Iactually really wanna know your
opinion on.
Heidi Sabnani (29:12):
Yep.
Vanessa Vakharia (29:13):
know how there's always these articles
that come out being like,teacher math, anxiety is
contagious, and like blah, blah,blah, blah, blah.
What would you say to theteacher who's like, I'm really
worried that I'm like infectingmy students with my math
anxiety.
Heidi Sabnani (29:26):
Interestingly enough, one, one of the teachers
who participated in my doctoralresearch, that was her whole
motivation for saying yes.
She was a, she's an amazingteacher.
And she was noticing that shehad kids in her classroom who
always needed to go to the nurseor the bathroom every time they
got to math.
(29:47):
she was like, and I am afraidthat my reticence is
transferring.
And so with her, this is wherewe started with literacy,'cause
she was like an amazing literacyteacher.
I said like, you're just notusing those skills that you have
there.
So let's start transferringthose over.
(30:08):
Let's start transferring thosequestions.
Let's start like giving yourselfsome time to breathe.
I think that the research showsthat teachers with math anxiety
spend 50% less time teachingmath, and they teach in ways
that are rote and are based onmemorization speed.
So if we look at just those twothings, less time teaching and
(30:31):
speed and memorization, we knowthat, that those two things,
having less time to work onsomething and being forced to
memorize it, some of the majorunderlying foundations of math
anxiety.
So it's a result, notnecessarily, I, I don't think
(30:52):
it's like the intent, I thinklike it becomes because of
those, those two factors.
Uh, I don't think it'scontagious.
I do think that mindsets becontagious.
You know, if you, if you're everaround someone who's like super
negative about something likethat, that begins to permeate,
(31:14):
right?
Or you have someone who's, who'salways like, really excited
about every brand new day andwhat, like those things are
contagious.
And so we have to think aboutand just be mindful of what is
our thinking and how we, um,create, what is our mindset when
we go into that.
But I think that through thatreflection piece.
(31:37):
And through the pointing out thethings that they're really good
at already, they're like, youare really good at this.
You do have the skills to dothis, and then let's reflect and
brain dump on it.
So then you're not thinkingabout those things when you're
going in
Vanessa Vakharia (31:49):
I really think that's so awesome how you said
that.
And like I wonder if, like, thisis what I always say and I'm
curious what your thoughts areon it.
I'm like, your mindset is onething, right?
Like, so I actually like yourexample of being like, imagine a
really a negative person orwhatever, right?
Your mindset is one thing.
I just actually am reading thenew Lena Dunham book, which
seems like it would not berelated to this conversation,
but it is because she says thather father always says something
(32:13):
like, there's no such thing as abad thought there, it's it,
there's no such thing as anegative thought, there is such
a thing as a negative action.
Like often we can't help ourthoughts, we're working on them,
whatever.
But what you do with yourthoughts is what matters.
So like your mindset is onething, like you being like, Ugh,
I really don't think I'm a mathperson, is one thing.
But then the action you take asa result, so the action might be
teaching less math or refusingto teach, you know, change the
(32:34):
way you teach.
Or expressing to the classroom,I hate math, I was born with a
math deficiency.
Like that action is the thingthat actually has the effect.
So even if you're listening tothis and you're like, oh, but I
do have a negative mindsetaround math.
If you're reflective on that,like Heidi says, and you pick
your action with thoughtfulness,for example, saying to your
class, you know what guys, like,I do have a bad attitude around
(32:55):
math, but it's something I'vedeveloped, it's not something
I'm born with and I'm working onit.
'cause I know it's not like, me,you know, I wanna, whatever
that, ultimately it is thebelieve, behave, become in a
way, but do you, do you agree?
Like, it's like kind of the wayyou the action you take as a
result of your mindset is theactual piece that matters.
And obviously we want you tochange your mindset, but in the
process of doing that, as longas you take thoughtfully aligned
(33:16):
action, it's okay for you to notfeel so great about math.
You're not like.
Heidi Sabnani (33:21):
Yes.
I mean, and, and.
It will change from day to day.
I will walk into spacessometimes even now or someone
will have something and I'mlike, it just freaks me out.
And I'm like okay I need topause and and Or like some
ridiculous problem.
I remember being in a sessionwith.
It was a regional, teachers ofmathematics thing and someone
(33:43):
who like I really respect, likeput this problem up on the
board.
And I was there with someteachers I worked with and I was
like, oh, my word.
Like gross, like what is that?
Like?
And, and I don't
Vanessa Vakharia (33:57):
Right.
Heidi Sabnani (33:57):
that.
And I'm here with like teachersthat I work with and now they're
gonna see me and, and know thatI like, am not unsure about how
to do this.
I was sitting next to Molly andMolly was like, that problem's
disgusting.
I'm not doing it.
Vanessa Vakharia (34:09):
Okay.
Heidi Sabnani (34:10):
And like someone else from the back was like,
well just look at the structureof that.
And I was like, I didn't eventhink that, like my brain short
circuited in that moment.
And if I had been able to pauseand think, and so that's what,
that was the conversation I hadwith my teachers.
I was like, because we all wentto that same place.
We all went to like, oh, Butlike looking for that structure
(34:32):
in that moment, giving yourselfa pause like that will still
happen.
I will still walk into spaceswhere I'm like, I don't know
that I should be here, Someonemade me feel a certain kind of
way about it, but done the work,I'm here, like I'm working on it
like none of us have arrived.
We're all working on things.
And so give yourself some timeand space in that moment and
(34:53):
like you can do the thing.
You just have to give yourselfsome time.
Vanessa Vakharia (34:58):
Okay.
Final two questions.
Someone is listening to this.
They're like, wow, I loveeverything.
Okay.
You have 30 seconds to answerthis a time test, so not okay of
me.
Okay.
So someone's listening, they'relike, I love all of this, and
like, Ugh, I would love Heidi tocome help us at our school.
But the thing is, I'm just not amath person, so it's just not
gonna work.
What would you say.
Heidi Sabnani (35:15):
Yeah, I would say, um, what We can also talk
literacy.
Let's talk literacy first, and,and then I'll show you how that
connects to mathematics, I dowork in both of those spaces.
Um, but it is like.
You are, you are a person whointeracts with mathematics in
some form or another.
So let's start with that.
(35:36):
And let's start with the thingsthat you're comfortable with.
If it's literacy, we're gonnastart there and we're gonna show
you how those things connect tomath.
And then I'm gonna make you amath person
Vanessa Vakharia (35:43):
Ah, I really like the emphasis you've made on
the connection of you haveskills in this other area you
feel comfortable in, let me showyou how they connect in math,
because that's something I do alot in my work, I call it like
your math superpower.
We're just using differentlanguage for the same thing of
being like, you're good, youfeel good about these things,
you're just not seeing how thoseapply in math.
So, I love that so much, and Ithink that has to do with
(36:05):
broadening our definition ofwhat math is like asking good
questions.
You do that in literacy andyou're good at it.
You feel good about it.
Guess what?
Asking good questions is a mathskill, so love that.
Okay, last question.
If there was one thing you couldchange about the way math is
taught, what would it be?
Is that my question?
Is there there one thing youcould change about math class?
I can't even remember itanymore.
(36:26):
Whatever.
Heidi, answer one of those in 30seconds.
Heidi Sabnani (36:32):
I wish that we had more time and fewer
standards.
I think that would make a, areally big difference.
And I think like looking atthings in a more connected way.
You know, during theRenaissance, you were not
regardless of when and where ithappened in your country.
(36:54):
You are not solely a math personor a literacy person or art
person, or a sculptor or what,like it was a, it was the
combination of all of thosethings together.
And we so much teach things insilos now we don't allow
students to see theconnectedness between all of
those pieces of life.
And so I, I wish that we couldchange that, and help students
(37:17):
see that the skills that they'relearning in math help them in
other spaces as
Vanessa Vakharia (37:21):
You know what is so interesting that when you
just said that, I just gotgoosebumps because I was like, I
was getting this deja vu and Iremembered my last guest, Dr.
Edward Doolittle, who's in, he'sa, an indigenous math expert in
Canada.
He talked about how this exactsame thing, he put it in
different words, but he said inindigenous cultures we, they
have sages, right?
There's just a sage that's likea knower of things.
(37:44):
It's not like a math stage andan English right?
It's like this idea of like thiscollective wisdom, this holistic
wisdom.
And you're right, I think thereis something to this siloed
approach where like a lot ofthings actually are not siloed.
You know what I mean?
Like it's like almost like wecome up, we have this word like
the arts, and that actuallyencompasses a lot of things, but
math is only this one thing.
(38:07):
And it's, I really, that isgonna leave me thinking, that's
gonna leave us all thinking thatidea of like less silos, more
just wisdom.
Like what is wisdom and why ismathematical wisdom just not a
part of this?
I'm now, I'm now over explainingbecause I think actually 30
seconds ago I had a mic drop andit was really good after your
(38:28):
mic drop and now we gotta endthis.
We're gonna end this.
I'm undoing the wisdom that Ijust shared.
That was actually not mine.
It was yours and Dr.
Edward Doolittle's.
Heidi Sabnani (38:40):
No, but I, I think that's like such a key
element of this work, is we haveto stop looking at it in, in
those ways.
And we have to start, it's theidea of when we try new things
that are outside our comfortzone, do we expect immediate
success?
(39:01):
You're a musician, I playedpiano for years and years and
years.
That didn't come from, like, Ijust sat down one day and I was
like a prodigy.
Those moments are rare, right?
So like, it takes time.
I learned to watercolor duringthe pandemic.
begrudgingly like all of thosethings, it takes time, right?
It takes time.
And you know what, it's justpaper.
like the person I've beenlearning with online, like,
(39:23):
she's like, it's just paper,throw it out..
Start over.
If we look at mathematics asproblem solving, then let's
solve real problems that matter.
And let's not just have them soisolated.
Vanessa Vakharia (39:36):
What a lovely conversation.
Honestly.
Thank you so much for makingtime.
Heidi Sabnani (39:40):
go on and
Vanessa Vakharia (39:40):
You are so, oh yeah, we could talk.
We were gonna have to do a parttwo.
We could talk forever.
Heidi, thank you so much.
You're amazing.
Thank you for being here.
Heidi Sabnani (39:48):
Well, thank you for having me.
I love it that we have met inreal life and we get to chat
about the work that you're doingand that I'm doing and like the
connection between the two.
'Cause again, it takes more thanone person.
Like it takes a whole communityof us doing this work to
actually
Vanessa Vakharia (40:01):
Yeah.
Well, thank you for being in thecommunity.
Oh.
I feel like me and Heidi areboth bad at saying bye.
I don't know that either of usis gonna do it.
She's waving.
Say it.
Goodbye
Heidi Sabnani (40:11):
Bye.
Vanessa Vakharia (40:14):
Okay, you know I love practical advice.
I love useful strategies.
And there is nothing I love morethan steps.
I love how Heidi broke herthinking down into clear steps
to show us that transformationcan happen with intentional,
consistent action.
And if you noticed, that was acornerstone of how she helps
teachers transform, throughconsistent learning, consistent
practice with differentapproaches to math, and
(40:36):
consistent support that helpsthem feel safe enough to try new
things.
If you're listening, regardlessof what anxiety you're trying to
work through right now, likemaybe it's math anxiety, but
maybe it's just anxiety aroundgetting organized or being
financially secure, travelingsolo, speaking your mind, I
don't know, but Heidi's messagestill works.
So commit to trying a newapproach consistently, week
(40:57):
after week, month after month.
When we try a new approach tosomething and stick to it, we
will get a different outcome.
It's basically guaranteed.
All right, before I say bye, orattempt to say bye, remember to
do two things.
Number one, text this episode toyour math people.
You know, the ones who need toknow they can change the way
they feel about math, and theones in charge of supporting
(41:18):
those who want to change the waythey feel about math, and the
ones who want to win a brand-newcalculator.
Because this brings me to thenext thing I want you to
remember, which is to enter ourgiveaway with Texas Instruments,
which includes a brand-new TI-84Evo with a four-year online
calculator license, a gettingstarted guide and calendar, and
a plushie keychain in a mysterycolor.
(41:39):
All you have to do is text thepodcast using the link in your
app and tell me you want in onthe TI giveaway by Tuesday, May
nineteenth.
I'll randomly pick a winner, andjust like that, the new TI-84
Evo is yours, baby.
All right, guys, that's all shewrote.
See you next week, same day,same channel, same unhinged
energy.
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