September 3, 2026 • 35 mins
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Today we bring you part 1 of 2 of our first ever Math Therapy Makeover "Before & After"!
When Vanessa first met Lauren Keeling earlier this year, being "not a math person" defined her entire life. Visiting Vanessa's tutoring centre in Toronto with her team from Imagine Learning's Heart Work podcast, Lauren was dreading her IRL math therapy session - literally terrified that Vanessa would ask her to do math with the mics on and cameras rolling!
But what actually happened was magic; the two unpacked the roots of her icky feelings around math and talked through how to flip the script. The 2nd episode of Heart Work's 3-part series on math anxiety included portions of that session, but Imagine Learning graciously allowed us to share the FULL convo with Math Therapy listeners!
And what makes this EXTRA special is that Vanessa interviewed Lauren 4 months later to find out what changed - and we'll be airing THAT episode NEXT week!
Links mentioned:
- 3-part podcast series: "Heart Work: Breaking the Cycle of Math Anxiety" by Imagine Learning
- Watch this interview: extended video interview on Heart Work's YouTube
Contact us:
- Vanessa Vakharia: Instagram, TikTok, Email
- Math Therapy: Text the Podcast
More Math Therapy:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Vanessa Vakharia (00:03):
Okay, hi.
Hello.
I have the coolest episode foryou today, and it's actually a
two-parter, and you're about tohear part one.
Okay, sorry.
Before I explain, hello.
Hi.
Yes, welcome to Math Therapy.
I'm Vanessa Vakharia, AKA TheMath Guru.
Fine, The intro is done.
Now listen up.
Do you have math trauma?
Are you convinced you will neverchange the way you feel about
(00:25):
math?
Have you ever wanted to hearwhat it's like to actually give
or get math therapy?
Like, do you watch Shrinking orCouples Therapy and wish you
could be in the room whensomeone gets therapized, but,
like, about their math trauma?
Well, guess what?
Today is your lucky day ImagineLearning has a podcast called
HeartWork, and they did thisthree-part series this year on
(00:47):
math anxiety.
For one of those parts, theirpodcast team literally flew to
Toronto so that I could givetheir host, Lauren Keeling, some
IRL math therapy.
Now, throughout the series,Lauren was on a mission to
explore her own lifelong mathtrauma, and that brought her and
her team to spend an entire dayat my tutoring studio in
Toronto.
(01:08):
That three-part series came outin the summer.
The other episodes featured,Deborah Peart and Peter
Liljedahl, and the whole seriesis like this Wondery true crime
podcast, but about healing mathtrauma.
We'll link in the show notes.
As a bonus, HeartWork put myfull one-on-one math therapy
session with Lauren on theirYouTube, and today they have
agreed to let us share thataudio with you in a podcast
(01:32):
exclusive.
It gets even better, becauseguys, Lauren Keeling's math
story does not end at that onesession we had together months
ago.
Her life, as it turns out, hastotally changed in ways she
never could have imagined.
So I decided to do a follow-upsession with her so that we
could unpack how math therapychanged her life and her sense
of self, and next week you aregoing to hear that.
(01:54):
Like, guys, this is an epictwo-parter.
We've never done anything likethis before, and I can't wait
for you to hear it, so buckleup, because you're about to get
a seat on my pink velvet couchnext to Lauren Keeling.
You're gonna hear about why shedeveloped such crippling math
anxiety so early on, how that'sdefined her as a person and
limited what she thought she wascapable of, and then you're
gonna hear growth mindset inaction as we work through it in
(02:18):
real time.
I'm not gonna tell you whathappens at the end, because you
have to hear it to believe it.
And guys, this is the one.
This is the episode to text yourfriend with math anxiety, your
friend who's convinced they'renot a math person and never will
be, the teacher you work withwho's like,"Mm, it's ELA or
bust.
I can't do math," your entireteacher group chat, your
students' parents.
This is the one.
(02:38):
This will give them hope andchange their lives.
All right, here it is, me andthe brave and courageous Lauren
Keeling on HeartWork
Lauren Keeling (02:50):
Vanessa, welcome to HeartWork.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:52):
And Lauren, welcome to Math Therapy.
Lauren Keeling (02:54):
I'm nervous.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:56):
Okay, so this is actually a really good
starting point.
Good.
I actually am curious.
Your anxiety that you thinkyou're walking in here with is
around math.
Can you pinpoint what you'renervous about?
Lauren Keeling (03:05):
Failure.
I am-
Vanessa Vakharia (03:06):
Oh, okay.
Wow
Lauren Keeling (03:07):
terrified that you're going to ask me to do
math today, and my entire bodyis going to lock up, and my
brain is going to freeze, andI'm not going to be able to
produce anything for you.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:15):
Hmm.
And what would ha- if thathappened, first of all, I am
not, there's no, there's, I'mnot gonna, like, whip out a time
test.
So let's go with this.
So your literal fear is I'mgonna ask you to do math, you
are gonna, like, freeze.
You're not gonna be able toproduce anything.
Lauren Keeling (03:31):
Yes.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:31):
Okay.
Lauren Keeling (03:31):
And I'm afraid it's going to be really basic
math-
Vanessa Vakharia (03:34):
Okay
Lauren Keeling (03:34):
because it doesn't matter what level of
math it is, if you ask me toproduce it, and if you put a
time capsule on it, I actuallywould probably melt into the
couch.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:43):
Here's my question to you.
If I asked you what eight pluseight was, and you couldn't get
it, and, right, like, your fearcame true, your fear, which is
that you are gonna lock up,you're gonna be unable to
produce.
You might even get the wronganswer, even worse, on a public
forum- Yes like, people arelistening, what would that mean
about you?
Lauren Keeling (04:02):
That I am a failure.
That I am a dummy.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:07):
When is the first time you felt this way?
Lauren Keeling (04:09):
I, in first grade.
It centers on those, those timedtests.
That's when we started doingflashcards.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:16):
Hmm.
Lauren Keeling (04:17):
I see Mrs.
V walking down the aisles in therows that we were in, and she
sets this paper down in front ofme that I have just finished,
and it is full of red Xs.
And that very moment is the veryfirst moment that I can recall
in my life feeling like I wasn'tvery good at this thing and that
something was wrong with me.
(04:39):
And then it happened again, andthen it happened again
Vanessa Vakharia (04:43):
Okay, so that sounds, first of all, very, very
hard.
And I can, like, feel theemotion, like, coming out of you
as you talk about it.
It is, it's really interesting,right?
How core, like, you, you said itwas a core memory- but then the
evidence is you literallyremember every detail.
I do.
You remember what she waswearing, you remember, like, how
you felt.
Can we talk about themathematics content?
(05:03):
Like, so you got the stuffwrong, you got the red Xs.
Time te- forget the timed test,were you able to, in a non-timed
situation, do what was on thepaper?
Lauren Keeling (05:12):
Perhaps not perfectly or well, but I felt
like I had the time to be ableto count on my fingers.
I could do touch math.
The, the
Vanessa Vakharia (05:19):
world's OG manipulative, everyone.
Lauren Keeling (05:22):
Yes, the original.
I had to do it a completelydifferent way from what the very
straightforward way that myteacher was doing it up on the
board.
Vanessa Vakharia (05:29):
Got it.
So there's a few, like, reallyinteresting things, which is
that, just from a theoreticalpoint of view, and, like, a
scientific point of view, it'sreally important that we hang
onto this moment for a second,because this is years and years,
this is decades later, decadeslater.
Decades later.
Decades later, and your bodyremembers that experience.
It does.
And actually, with math trauma,and any sort of microtrauma or
(05:51):
macrotrauma, our bodies do goback into the state we were in
when we had the first traumaticincident.
So I actually want you to justgive yourself some grace as a
bigger picture.
We're gonna talk about this morelater, but to remember that now,
every time you're faced withmath, you are back to being that
six-year-old.
It's not just made up.
Like, that is what's happening,and how can you possibly perform
(06:14):
mathematically when you feellike...
Like, you can't.
You can't access your workingmemory.
Like, your amygdala is beinghijacked.
You're back in that traumamemory.
And I just wanna reflect back,there's a part of you that's
like,"Even though I'm able towork this stuff out, and, like,
get the result and get a goodgrade, it doesn't actually
count, because I'm not doing itfast enough.
I'm not doing it the wayeveryone else is.
I've gotta use these tools noone else is doing, so it doesn't
(06:35):
actually count as me being goodat math."
Lauren Keeling (06:37):
Yes.
I had to figure out, I had todraw the pictures, I had to make
the circles.
You know, I had to do all of thedifferent strategies.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:43):
And is that, is that not being good at math
in your mind?
Lauren Keeling (06:45):
No, it's not being good at math- Right in my
mind.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:47):
And, and why?
Lauren Keeling (06:49):
Because there's one way to do math.
My childhood teaching tells methere's one way to do math, and
if you have to do all of thisextraneous stuff to get there,
you're not doing it right.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:58):
Yeah.
Lauren Keeling (06:58):
One pathway.
But can I tell you one more bigpiece of math trauma-
Vanessa Vakharia (07:02):
Tell me whatever you want, yeah
Lauren Keeling (07:03):
that lives in my grown-up life?
Vanessa Vakharia (07:04):
Yes.
Lauren Keeling (07:06):
from a career perspective, I've done a lot of
different things, and when Itransitioned out of my very
first job as a journalist andmoved into...
I decided that we were raisinggirls.
I needed a different schedule inmy life.
I wanted to be a teacher.
My mom was a teacher.
I knew I loved kindergarten.
It was, my heart was called toit.
I had to go back to school andget my master's degree, but then
(07:26):
came the really difficult partbecause in Ohio, where I was
getting certified, I had to takefour different tests in the core
subjects, right?
So math, reading, uh, science,and social studies.
I went to take my math Praxis,and I'm sitting in this little
quiet room, and these sweetladies are on the outside of the
glass, and you know you're notallowed to talk when you're
taking those tests.
Sure.
You're, like, in your littlecubicle.
So I'm working through thistest, working through this test,
(07:48):
and I'm taking it at the end,and I fail it, this big test
that's going to allow me to getmy certification.
Mm.
And I fail it by just a verymenial number, less than 10
points.
Vanessa Vakharia (07:59):
Oh my God.
Lauren Keeling (08:00):
And I was super disappointed, but I knew I could
take it again.
So I went back to my tutor, andwe bought all of the Math for
Dummies books and Ma- PraxisMath for Dummies books, and we
studied through all of those.
Probably in
Vanessa Vakharia (08:11):
retrospect, like, not a good name, okay?
Lauren Keeling (08:12):
Terrible name.
Vanessa Vakharia (08:13):
I know.
Lauren Keeling (08:13):
So we did all of those books, and I went back and
I took that test again thesecond time, and I was really
trying to focus my brain on,like,"You can do this.
This is a really important thingto you.
You have the skill," and Ifailed it again.
Vanessa Vakharia (08:24):
Okay.
Lauren Keeling (08:24):
By this time, the ladies in the, on the other
side of the zoo glass areinvested in what I'm doing as
well, and they were disappointedfor me.
So I'm gonna do it again.
I'm gonna do it a third time.
We're gonna do all the samestuff over again.
We're gonna keep practicing.
I failed it by two points- Oh my
Vanessa Vakharia (08:39):
God
Lauren Keeling (08:39):
on the third time.
I had one more chance to takeit.
Vanessa Vakharia (08:43):
This is so stressful.
Lauren Keeling (08:45):
So
Vanessa Vakharia (08:46):
stressful.
Were you stressed in there?
Lauren Keeling (08:47):
Yes.
Vanessa Vakharia (08:47):
Okay.
Lauren Keeling (08:48):
By the third time, I was, I was not, I was
not well-
Vanessa Vakharia (08:52):
Yeah
Lauren Keeling (08:52):
taking that third test.
Vanessa Vakharia (08:53):
I got it.
Lauren Keeling (08:54):
Because the, the real life, the grown-up pressure
was on this.
Yeah.
This was a career.
I was making a huge shift away.
I was taking a chance.
I- this was the only way I couldget a job to teach, is if I
passed this thing.
After all of that, on the fourthtest, I did pass, and I barely
passed, and I loudly celebratedin my quiet cubicle, in the
space you're not supposed totalk, and the ladies outside the
(09:14):
zoo glass celebrated when theysaw my arms go up- Oh my God
because we were just all livingthis moment that, like-
Vanessa Vakharia (09:19):
Yeah
Lauren Keeling (09:20):
here's this poor girl who has come in here 1,000
times and just keeps missing itby, by a mark.
So all that to say, that wasjust another grown-up moment for
me that proved, in my mind, thatsmall thing that I knew that I
was missing when I was doingthat math, that if I could have
just done it the way they taughtme to do it and I didn't have to
(09:42):
do all of the other stuff to getto that answer, I would've been
quicker, I could've had moretime to check my answers, and I
probably would've passed.
So there's a lot that's sort ofknitted into that.
Vanessa Vakharia (09:53):
Okay, love the Like, I don't love it, but,
like, this totally makes so muchsense.
Lauren Keeling (09:56):
I believe that deep in my soul.
Even knowing what I know today,even having the experiences I
had today, teaching childrenmath as a kindergarten teacher,
working with teachers p- to pickand, and put out a curriculum in
our district, even knowing allthe things I know today, I
still, in my soul, when I digdown deep and think about math
for Lauren Keeling, there isonly one way to solve that
problem and you're not doing itright.
Vanessa Vakharia (10:17):
It- this is so interesting,'cause when I work
with teachers, I often, like, Ido a lot of talks around, like,
defining failure and success,and I find educators c- very
often will, like, have this d-idea of success for the people
they lead, right?
Either the teachers they workwith or their students, and
they'll be like,"Success isjust, like You know, it's trying
and failing.
It's showing up.
It's whatever." But theirstandard for themselves is
(10:39):
always, like, completelydifferent.
Yep.
Right?
Like, and it definitely soundslike that for you, because
off-screen or mic or whatever,you and I were talking, and you
were saying that one of yourdeep core beliefs is that there
are, like, multiple ways tolearn things and do things, and
even if in math you've gotta getto the one answer, there's so
many ways you can do it and allof those are equally valuable.
(11:00):
And now it seems like you'rejust, like, completely
gaslighting yourself.
Lauren Keeling (11:02):
But not for me.
But not- Yeah, not for youeveryone else in the world-
Yeah.
can have all the ways to get tomastery, but for me, nope,
there's, there's one way and Idon't know how to do it.
Okay.
So fast-forward, I got my, mylicensure.
I was hired thankfully, to teachthird grade.
And the books in third grade areamazing.
They're so fun to teach.
But do you know what else youteach in third grade?
Vanessa Vakharia (11:23):
What?
Lauren Keeling (11:23):
Fractions.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:24):
Oh my God, do you love that?
I hate it- Cool
Lauren Keeling (11:26):
deeply.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:28):
Yeah.
So what happened?
Lauren Keeling (11:30):
So I taught fractions, and I'm air quoting,
I taught fractions.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:34):
Why are you air quoting?
Lauren Keeling (11:35):
Because I just had to read directly from the
book because that was a style ofmath that I didn't understand
until I started failing forwardat cooking and using measuring
cups.
Fractions finally started,started to make a little bit of
sense for me in my 30s when Iwas practicing it that way,
which would've been a greatstrategy to bring into my
classroom- Yeah, like
Vanessa Vakharia (11:53):
I'm like-
Lauren Keeling (11:53):
for the students so
Vanessa Vakharia (11:54):
I don't wanna be, like, sarcastic and snippy,
but I'm like, oh, wow, when youencountered the thing in real
life and it was actuallyrelevant- Amazing it made sense.
Like, shocking.
Lauren Keeling (12:00):
Not separate and apart and using strange-
Vanessa Vakharia (12:02):
Wow
Lauren Keeling (12:03):
things in a book.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So as soon- I- Third grade, thechildren were wonderful, the
books were great, fractions werehorrible.
I was panicked every day that Iwas destroying math futures for
children because I myself wasuncomfortable teaching
fractions, and I felt like therewas just no possible way that
wasn't somehow seeping into achild in the classroom who also
was finding it to be a littleconfusing and uncomfortable.
And so I only spent one year inthird grade, truly because
(12:26):
pointing to, I just, I justcould not torture myself through
teaching fractions.
Yeah.
And I got out, and I startedteaching kindergarten.
Vanessa Vakharia (12:33):
There are probably a lot of teachers
listening that feel the exactway- Mm that you felt in grade
three.
Lauren Keeling (12:37):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (12:38):
What would you tell those teachers?
Like, would you tell them to...
What, what would you say?
Lauren Keeling (12:42):
It's hard as a first-year teacher to feel like
you're doing good work- Yeah inany space because you're just
figuring it out.
And then it's also extra hardwhen it's something that you're
not confident in yourself.
And- If I separate myself fromhow Lauren Keeling felt, and I
look at you as the administratorthat I became, I would say,
"We're gonna figure it outtogether." Oh.
"And I'm gonna give you all thesupports that you need, and I
(13:04):
actually know a teacher justright across the hall from you
who is really doing great workteaching children fractions and
can maybe support you in this."As a grown-up who has had great
people in her life and who hasraised daughters and lived in
the world, that what that personneeds is just really what you're
doing for me right here,providing an opening for them to
(13:24):
talk about it and think about itand actually connect to what the
real root issue is.
And then how do we figure itout?
You love third grade.
Let's pretend that that's whatit is.
You love third grade.
Oh, but I cannot- This is thespace you wanna be in
Vanessa Vakharia (13:36):
imagine teaching third grade, but yes.
Lauren Keeling (13:38):
Yeah, there's a lot that's happening in, in and
with third graders.
Vanessa Vakharia (13:40):
No, but I love it.
I love it so much.
Yeah.
Okay?
So let's say you love it.
I
Lauren Keeling (13:42):
love large rooms of chi- little
Vanessa Vakharia (13:44):
children.
Lauren Keeling (13:44):
You're just...
Yes.
You, you love that.
Tons of people are cut for thirdgrade, and that's where they
wanna be.
The math is hard, and that's notgonna change.
But you're smart.
You're a teacher.
You passed all these hard tests.
You've done all of these things,and you have a really big heart
for helping these childrenfigure it out.
So let's also have a really bigheart for you figuring it out,
(14:04):
and let your heart be big foryourself to figure it out.
What kind of grappling work canwe do to get there?
How can I help you?
Vanessa Vakharia (14:11):
I...
We're gonna need, once this isdone, for you to play ba- that
back to yourself- to the grade,the third-grade teacher you
were, and I wish someone hadsaid that to you.
But also, I fully support beinglike,"I don't wanna torture
myself."
Lauren Keeling (14:25):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (14:25):
We are adults.
Lauren Keeling (14:26):
Yes.
Vanessa Vakharia (14:26):
Okay?
We get to choose now.
We don't have to do anything wedon't like.
Yeah.
Right?
So, so you are, uh, uh, fullyable to be like,"I actually...
This..." Like, there are tons ofthings I do where I'm like,"I
could do this- but it's gonnatake a lot of work, and I don't
wanna put in that work," or,"This is gonna make me
miserable, and I don't wanna doit." Yeah.
It doesn't mean I don't think Ican do it, but I think that is a
(14:47):
bit of the difference, and youas an administrator, and all the
administrators listening to thiswho probably have teachers that
they are leading who feel thisway, I think this is really
important to hear.
You're not the only one whothinks this.
This is one of the key argumentswe will hear from students and
from teachers.
They will say,"It just didn'tcome naturally for me." But what
(15:08):
I like the most about math isthat it is a gateway into really
highlighting how someone feelsabout themselves, and it is a
gateway to changing the waysomebody feels about themselves
as a core identity shift.
Like, I think math can do thatbecause math is so weighted, and
it gives people such visceralexperiences, often negative-
(15:31):
often so identity-based becausewe do use it as this identity
piece, like you're either a mathperson or not- that we can use
it to, like, leverage thisincredible identity shift with
people.
Most of us learned that failureis really bad- at some point.
Definitely failure in school isreally bad.
And so math was, like, thisperfect storm for you- Yeah that
(15:51):
has formed this childhoodprotector part, as, like, IFS
would say, that now lives withinyou and wants to make sure you
never feel that way again.
But, like, the core story isuntrue because your core story
is,"Unless I do math in thisspecific exact way, I can't be
good at it.""And, and if I'm notgood at it, I'm a failure." In
(16:16):
our society, math is the thingwe associate with intelligence.
Lauren Keeling (16:19):
Yes.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:20):
Right?
Like, we don't- Yes, absolutelycall Picasso smart.
We don't call LeBron Jamessmart.
Like, we call ma- Like, whenyou're good at math, you are
smart.
Lauren Keeling (16:27):
That's so true.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:28):
I'm tr- I don't wanna make this gendered,
but I am My master's thesis wascalled Imagining a World Where
Paris Hilton Loves Math.
And it is specifically aboutwomen and math.
I-
Lauren Keeling (16:37):
That's a fantastic title-
Vanessa Vakharia (16:38):
Thank you- by the way so much.
It was about mediarepresentation, you know, of
mathematicians and of women, andhow so many women self-select
out of mathematics- because theyfeel like there's no room for
their full identity to mergewith the identity of
mathematician.
Lauren Keeling (16:53):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:54):
There is a lot of research around this.
So it's not You know, I, I, Ibring it up because women tend
to be so much harder onthemselves than they are with
those around them, and this isa, a large reason we see a
discrepancy when it comes togender and mathematics- is
because of a wh- a, a wholerange of things here, but this
(17:14):
being one of them, this idea ofif you can't achieve perfection-
then it means that you are afailure, and there is nothing
worse than being a failure, soyou stick to the things you're
good at.
Kids know that.
They know that they areliterally one wrong answer away
from getting written off.
And I hope you're seeing thesemajor themes coming out.
That math symbolizes so muchmore for us, right?
(17:38):
It symbolizes what intelligenceis.
Lauren Keeling (17:40):
Yes.
We just bought a house.
We were talking all aboutmortgages, and numbers, and
percentages, but I certainlydidn't wanna have any hands in
trying to actually do thenumbers, and think about the
numbers, and look at thenumbers.
It just, one, made me supernervous because what if I got it
wrong?
I just hated the fact that evenif I were going to sit down and
try to suss those numbers outand figure out what it might or
(18:01):
could be, I could be wrong, andthat could have given us a poor
picture of what- Sure we weregoing to do, right?
Vanessa Vakharia (18:06):
That's, like, an actual risk.
Lauren Keeling (18:07):
Yeah.
So there's- Yeah there are,there are real consequences
connected to the math that Iwould be responsible for doing,
or thinking through, or puttingon paper and actually sharing
today.
And so when I say I feelindifferent, I feel indifferent
because I'm just saying,"Okay,someone else can figure this
out.
I can put this on someone else'splate who is going to get it
right because they are mathsmart, and I don't have to worry
(18:29):
about the outcome." If I do it,we gotta worry about the outcome
'cause we're gonna have to lookat it with a magnifying glass
and have somebody else check mywork, right?
Vanessa Vakharia (18:38):
My goal with anyone, e- even with students,
is like, I don't need you tolike go into STEM or do math.
I actually really do not care.
I care that you believe that youcould if you wanted to or needed
to.
That's actually what I careabout.
Like, like right now you're notin a position to be figuring out
mortgages, right?
Right.
Like you like have math traumafrom grade one.
(18:58):
You don't like it.
It sucks, and there's someonewho can do it.
So like, it's really, there'snothing...
I don't want us feeling badabout that.
Yeah.
Like you don't need to be likedoing your own math.
It's like when somebody uses acalculator I'm like,"Don't feel
bad about it." Yeah.
"Maybe you just didn't feel likethinking about it in the
moment." Like I don't care whatyou're doing, I just want you to
know you're capable of doing it.
Again, uh, when I was talkingabout my master's thesis, the,
(19:19):
the big finding from that wasthat for young girls, like the
girls that I was working at, inorder to become math people it
meant they had to shed theidentity they had.
For example, a lot of them were,were like cheerleaders.
We have never seen a cheerleaderrepresented as being good at
math in the media.
The two are the opposite.
We all know the movie, right?
(19:40):
Like you're either thecheerleader who needs like the
like, uh, the, the smart girl tolike help her with math, and
then you give the smart girl amakeover and then she be- like
whatever.
So there was a very big identityconflict.
These girls were great at math.
They were getting 90s.
They were getting As in my, mygrade 10 classroom, but they
were deter- they were like,"Weare not good at math." And when
we really dug down to it, it waskind of like this conversation
(20:00):
we're having here.
Yeah.
Where like the proof, theevidence was that they were good
at math.
But it was like, but if theybecame good at math, did, did
they have to let go of somethingelse?
Yes.
Did it mean that they had toengage in different behavior?
And I think we really disregardthe identity.
You know, we talk about mathidentity a lot.
But I think we're missing a verykey component of math identity
(20:22):
which is how does math identity,like in the Venn diagram of
identities, how does mathidentity intersect with our own
identity?
Mm.
Is it diametrically opposed toit?
What, what happens, right?
Like math identity isn't justabout math.
Is, it's about what math meansin relationship with all the
other identities we hold.
Lauren Keeling (20:42):
I, you have struck me speechless.
Which has never happened-
Vanessa Vakharia (20:48):
Okay, I
Lauren Keeling (20:48):
know in the history of this podcast.
Don't believe that.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:53):
The problem is, what being a math person
also means, whether we choose toaccept it or not, is it means
things like you don't likecreative things.
Like, think about everystereotype of what- Yes a math
person.
You definitely don't like musicand the arts.
You're a logical thinker.
You're boring.
You always get the right answer.
(21:14):
You sit and study all the time.
There's so many things the termmeans.
So the problem is, I'm notsurprised when you're like,"You
know what?
I kind of...
Being not a math person is partof my core identity." I think
that it's a really interestingquestion to ask because the
question is, should we bepushing people to become a math
(21:35):
person?
Or is there, is it perhaps,counterproductive to our goal,
which is to...
Like, my goal is to show everysingle student that they can
build an, a better relationshipwith math.
It's for people to just feelcapable and to be like,"Hey, you
know what?
I'm capable of more than Ithought I was, including these
fractions."
Lauren Keeling (21:53):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:53):
But my agenda is not to be like,"No, you need
to call yourselves a, yourself amath person." I, I hate labeling
in general, so why are we nowusing this as a label?
Lauren Keeling (22:04):
I don't have to become a math person to just be
able to do math.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:08):
Exactly.
Lauren Keeling (22:09):
I even think about that from a school
perspective, to release childrenfrom, and teachers from, are you
this person or are you thatperson?
Vanessa Vakharia (22:19):
Why are we doing that?
Ew.
Lauren Keeling (22:22):
And it's okay to like math, and it's okay to like
reading.
But to like those things doesnot make you that person.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:30):
And to like those things doesn't mean all of
a sudden you have to go into aSTEM career.
Lauren Keeling (22:34):
So what is it, Vanessa, that you do?
What did I come here needingfrom you today?
Vanessa Vakharia (22:40):
I, I mean, you should tell me that probably.
It probably shouldn't be foryou.
But no, I think that, the numberone thing people need in my
experience is validation.
Lauren Keeling (22:54):
Mm.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:55):
They need to feel val- feel validated.
They need to see that they'renot alone.
And the reason I like to alwaysstart opening the conversation,
and whenever I do a talk I dothis, I say, I, I frame it as I
would like everyone to thinkabout whether they've ever had a
negative experience with math.
That's my number one teachermove, and we did it here today.
(23:16):
The reason that can be sogroundbreaking for people is
when they start talking aboutit, which you did, right?
And I hope for you it's reallyempowering because it shows you
that you were not born withthese feelings.
You developed these feelings,right?
Emotions encode experience.
When we have an experience thatis very emotional, we remember
that experience.
(23:36):
It forms a memory that it's veryhard to let go of.
Neuroscience shows us that thepercentage of people born with a
natural aptitude for mathematicsis so small.
Like, like, you know when youthink about like a prodigy or
something like that?
The It exists, but thepercentage is so, so, so, so, so
small, and other than thatsubset of people Math ability
(23:59):
being something that you areborn with, like nature versus
nurture- the nature part of it,it is so, so, so small- in terms
of its effect on your futuremath ability, and the biggest
predictor of math ability isnurture.
It's practice.
Like, have you read Outliers byMalcolm Gladwell?
Lauren Keeling (24:19):
No.
Vanessa Vakharia (24:20):
Oh my God, what?
Okay, no, stop.
Okay, we, like, just, this book,it's about, like, the most
famous hockey players, the mostfamous mathematicians, the most
famous mu- musicians, the onesthat you would believe, like,
they must have been born with anexceptionality, they're so good
at it.
And he did all this research andfound that the one thing all of
these people had in common, theyhad one thing in common, and the
(24:40):
one thing they had in common wasthat they had all spent over
10,000 hours practicing theircraft.
Wow.
So, and if you think about itthat way, to put in 10,000
hours, it would help if youstarted at a young age.
It's a lot of hours to put in,right?
So often, it- we, we conflatenature and nurture because the
conversation would be like,"Well, from a, from a young age,
(25:01):
they were so good at thisthing," but it would often be
someone who was, like, tinkeringwith the piano when they, like,
were three years old- or, like,you know, Eugenia Cheng talks
about how her parents, like,would read her math stories at
night.
Like, instead of story time,they had math games.
Like, so w- we have been showntime and time again that nurture
plays a larger role, yet welove, we love the juicy story of
(25:22):
people born with this crazything, and it also gives us an
excuse- right?
To be like,"Well, I just wasborn at a deficit."
Lauren Keeling (25:30):
Yep.
But it's just, it's not true.
So tell me how this feeds intothe work that you do.
Vanessa Vakharia (25:35):
Okay.
So I feel like I wrote MathTherapy after years and years
and years of, you know...
I, I think if you talk to mostteachers, they're like,"Yeah,
I'm doing therapy in the mathclassroom," right?
Sure.
Like, a lot of the work I'mdoing is really therapeutic.
so I wrote it after years andyears and years, over 20 years
of teaching and tutoring andworking one-on-one with kids,
and, Really realizing that the,the number one thing, I mean,
(25:59):
I've had so many different typesof students in this space, and
the number one thing that makesa difference is actually not
whether they're taught throughthe algorithm or not, or with
worksheets or not.
It's, I mean, those thingsmatter, but the number one thing
that mattered was actually thetherapeutic element of
interacting with them.
It was doing stuff like this.
It was having theseconversations.
(26:20):
It was h- it was so emotional.
One of the biggest strategies iswhen somebody says they feel bad
at math or they're not, they'renot good at math, I often start
arguing with them.
I'll be like,"But you're doingmath, but you do this.
Like look, you took down theChristmas tree, like, that's
math." And what I'll find iswhat they actually really mean
is,"I wasn't good at schoolmath."
Lauren Keeling (26:41):
Mm.
Vanessa Vakharia (26:42):
Like,"I wasn't good at the math that got
graded, that got evaluated." SoI wanna sit with you, and we're
gonna actually do a littleskills analysis.
Okay.
Okay?
So I want you to name me mathskills.
Like, or, I, so here's thecount.
It's math skills or things thatare math.
So I'm gonna write the f- onething on here.
I'm gonna say mental math.
Lauren Keeling (27:02):
Okay.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:03):
Okay?
Give me one.
Lauren Keeling (27:05):
Uh, addition.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:06):
Addition.
Okay, great.
I'm gonna say, baking
Lauren Keeling (27:14):
Mm.
Planting my garden
Vanessa Vakharia (27:16):
What do, like, what do you do?
Lauren Keeling (27:18):
Making my rows, figuring out the distances and
the, the distances between eachof my flowers that I'm planting-
How
Vanessa Vakharia (27:23):
do you do
Lauren Keeling (27:24):
that?
the depth of putting the bulbsin the ground.
I,
Vanessa Vakharia (27:27):
I use- Oh, like, do you use a ruler?
Lauren Keeling (27:28):
I use non-standard measurement, my
arm, but-
Vanessa Vakharia (27:31):
But you-
Lauren Keeling (27:31):
I told you I love non-standard measurement.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:33):
No, but that's really good.
Okay, plant-
Lauren Keeling (27:34):
So yes, it's gardening, you know.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:37):
Planting a garden.
Now, if I had a student who feltbad at math, I would do this
with them, and then I'd be like,"Okay, I would look up how these
tied to the content I wasteaching right now." Mm.
So I'd be like,"Planting agarden.
Here are all the units that I'mteaching this year.
Tell me exactly how this tiesin." Why would I do that?
Because you, Lauren, are sittinghere being like,"Yeah, I guess I
(27:58):
do this math, but I didn'treally qualify it as math."
Lauren Keeling (28:00):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (28:00):
In your mind, I bet you're like,"It doesn't
really count." And that is wherewe start seeing that it is not
math the problem.
It- that's the problem.
It's the way we are treatingmath in a school setting that is
ruining math for everyone.
Yes.
Like, you were never graded atthis, and that is the only thing
that counts.
Okay, so now I'm gonna give youthis.
Okay.
And I want you to, with thispink pen, I want you to circle,
(28:21):
like, anything you feel good at.
Lauren Keeling (28:23):
I feel good at?
Vanessa Vakharia (28:23):
Yeah.
Lauren Keeling (28:23):
Well, planting a garden is first.
Vanessa Vakharia (28:25):
Okay.
And you feel, like, satisfiedafter or
Lauren Keeling (28:27):
something?
I do.
I feel really great after Iplant my garden.
Just the way that it looks likeit fits in the space- Okay
that's a real puzzle to me thatI love putting together.
Oh
Vanessa Vakharia (28:36):
my God, you put puzzles on the list.
Puzzles.
Yeah.
Okay.
So I want us to look at this.
So we have 19 items on here, andyou circled one, two, three,
four, five, six, seven, eight,nine, 10, 11.
11 out of 19.
Hmm.
Over a half of the things onhere you circled, okay?
I would now like you to look atthis and ask yourself, do you
(28:57):
believe everything you circledhas some sort of mathematical
component?
Lauren Keeling (29:03):
I do.
Vanessa Vakharia (29:03):
You've circled a lot of math stuff.
And there's a lot of stuff youcircled that I wouldn't be able
to circle.
Does this change in any way theway you feel about your math
ability?
And you can say no, I'm justcurious, looking at all the math
things you circled.
Lauren Keeling (29:15):
It does because it's what I think, I don't think
about sneaky math.
So for me, sneaky math is where-
Vanessa Vakharia (29:23):
I'm sorry, pardon?
Lauren Keeling (29:26):
Sneaky math, where we're, where we're looking
at angles and thinking aboutputting together, uh, my garden
or arranging my furniture.
I'm not actively working andmanipulating numbers.
Vanessa Vakharia (29:39):
Sneaky math.
Lauren Keeling (29:41):
I don't mind putting my garden together
because I don't actually have tocome into contact with numbers
when I'm doing it.
Okay.
Vanessa Vakharia (29:47):
I fully get what you mean, 100%.
Lauren Keeling (29:49):
Measuring and baking is sneaky math.
It's sneaky math.
I didn't realize I was doingfractions until I had a moment
where I thought,"Wait, threequarters of a cup is the same as
a..."
Vanessa Vakharia (29:56):
If we made more sneaky math, so can we call
it implicit math just for whatI'm gonna say?
Sure.
It's gonna sound like more of amic drop.
Okay, so if we made moreimplicit math explicit, more
people would realize how muchmath they were doing and how
good they were at it.
Lauren Keeling (30:11):
Yes.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:12):
Think about how much discussion we can now
be having with kids.
And kids are like,"Oh my God,well, I do this," and then just
like we were, we're like,"Okay,well, what about this?
And what...
Okay, fine, if you're gonna saybaking, I'm gonna say
measuring." Now we're realizinghow much math we're doing.
For a lot of kids, and probablyfor you a little, you're like,
"Okay, but it's not feeling likeit's, I didn't say algebra, and
I didn't say sine and cosine."So we wanna tie it to the things
(30:34):
we're doing in our curriculumand the content we're teaching.
We do wanna tie it in- and, andgive it that language.
That really helps.
As we've established, on thissheet here, you have so many
math superpowers that I don'thave.
And every single person hasthese latent math skills, these,
sorry, implicit sneaky mathskills- that are not necessarily
(30:55):
brought to the fore.
And part of what you were sayingearlier is you felt like you
weren't good at math'cause youweren't doing it the way you
were supposed to or the wayother people do it.
And what I want everyone to knowis that is actually your math
superpower.
Lauren Keeling (31:08):
Mm.
Vanessa Vakharia (31:08):
Is that when you're planning the garden,
you're using your- You've madeup this whole method, right?
Like, you're doing, you have allthese skills that not everybody
in the class has.
And in a classroom of students,you are gonna have kids who have
all circled different things onthis page, and that is not bad.
That is the blessing in it, isto be like,"Guys, look, you guys
(31:29):
all have these different skills.
And in our room combined, wehave, like, 30-plus math
superpowers.
We have all something differentto bring to the table." It also
create, helps create thiscollaborative environment where
instead of kids competing to oneanother, you can be like,"Hey,
you need help with that?
Well, like, Sally circled thisthing.
Their, their math superpower isproblem-solving.
Go talk to them about this.
(31:50):
Oh, you need help with counting?
Didn't somebody..." Like, right?
And so everyone is now notcompeting with one another, but
realizing that the whole isgreater than the sum of the
parts.
Mm.
Okay, the last thing I wanted usto do is on your phone, give me
your phone.
Lauren Keeling (32:02):
Yes.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:03):
Open up Duolingo.
They have now added math as alanguage, okay?
I see that.
So add math to your thing.
And great.
So we're not...
Do you wanna do a lesson rightnow?
Lauren Keeling (32:13):
Sure.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:13):
Oh, okay.
We're now suddenly doing math.
Okay, go for it.
I'm not even looking.
Okay, keep going.
Lauren Keeling (32:18):
Okay.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:18):
I think there's only a few.
It'll take, like, one minute.
Okay.
But you do that.
See how it goes, and I'm gonna-Tell
Lauren Keeling (32:23):
me if this is a, while I'm working on this- Yeah
maybe tell me, is this apractical strategy for-
Vanessa Vakharia (32:28):
I have gotten-
Lauren Keeling (32:28):
parents, teachers?
Vanessa Vakharia (32:29):
The reason I love it is, is it's, so when we
go into avoidance with math,like you were saying, you avoid
math.
Lauren Keeling (32:35):
I do.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:35):
We're not gonna get better at something
when we avoid it.
That's just, like, how lifeworks.
Lauren Keeling (32:40):
I'm doing really well.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:42):
Just, sorry, I can't hear my lo- my voice over
all the loud bings and bops-happening from Lauren's mastery
of mathematics right now.
so it's three minutes a day, andit starts building confidence,
and but more than that, it showsyou, it rewires the thing in
your brain that you have, whichis,"When I do math, a horrible
thing happens." Whether you getthe answers right or wrong on
(33:03):
the app, you're seeing that whenyou do math, a horrible thing
does not happen.
Lauren Keeling (33:07):
Actually, a really joyful thing happens.
Vanessa Vakharia (33:08):
A joyful thing happens, and even if you get
something wrong, you're justgonna try again the next day.
When we have math anxiety, weget stuck in the anxiety
avoidance cycle.
And we are never gonna get outof it unless we break the cycle
out of avoidance, which means weneed to do some math, and it's a
great way to do math.
You are really crushing here.
Lauren Keeling (33:23):
I'm really doing a great job.
Vanessa Vakharia (33:24):
What is happening?
Okay, we're almost done.
Lauren Keeling (33:26):
Yep.
I pulled something out of thisthat you just said- Yeah that
Duolingo's doing.
Math is a language.
Vanessa Vakharia (33:33):
Well, I, right?
Can, can I just tell you whatthey added?
They added math and music.
Those were the two newlanguages, and I was like,
"Again- Yes this is a languageissue." It is a language.
It is.
And it is okay for language tobe hard to learn.
Preach.
And we're also now really-
Lauren Keeling (33:50):
I think I'm done.
I don't feel stressed becauseI...
Vanessa Vakharia (33:54):
I mean, I'm done here.
I'm finished.
Lauren Keeling (33:57):
Well, I'm a learning legend.
Vanessa Vakharia (33:59):
Is that what it says?
Uh-huh.
Okay, so every day, just do itfor two weeks and see what
happens.
Can I just point out that youjust not only did math, you did
math while we're all actuallykind of now impatiently waiting.
At this point, we're on thethird battery.
I am staring at you.
You actually were talking at thesame time, and you're being
recorded.
You did not seem stressed.
Lauren Keeling (34:17):
Landing on the fact that math is a language-
Vanessa Vakharia (34:20):
That's crazy
Lauren Keeling (34:21):
that we speak is a big deal for me personally as
a learner, as a teacher, as athinker.
It lifts, releases, throws away,pushes out the window a lot of
the pressure around just havingto show up and be good at it
because we don't expect anyoneto show up and just be good at a
(34:41):
language.
We teach really explicitly andthoughtfully and with full
hearts.
It's the same with math.
Math is a language.
Should we just end with theDuolingo beep being like,"Good
job"?
Vanessa Vakharia (34:53):
Yay.
Should we crown Lauren?
Oh! There you go.
There you go, the, the unicornof understanding.
Lauren Keeling (34:59):
Oh.
I love it.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:01):
There she is, our queen.
Our math queen.
Lauren Keeling (35:05):
Oh, I do love a crown.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:10):
Oh my God, guys.
Was that not insane?
I am dying to know what youthink, so text the podcast now
by hitting the link in your shownotes.
And I don't wanna say too muchbecause remember, next week I
follow up with Lauren to see howshe's doing four months later.
So put a reminder in yourcalendar for next Thursday at
6:00 AM EST, because you aregoing to want to be the first to
(35:31):
hear this.
Thanks again to Imagine Learningfor letting us share this audio.
Go check them out and thethree-part Heart Work series on
math anxiety.
Link in the show notes.
And guys, thank you for beinghere.
Thank you for listening, andthank you for believing that
everyone can build a happier,healthier relationship with math
Okay, hi.
Hello.
I have the coolest episode foryou today, and it's actually a
two-parter, and you're about tohear part one.
Okay, sorry.
Before I explain, hello.
Hi.
Yes, welcome to Math Therapy.
I'm Vanessa Vakharia, AKA TheMath Guru.
Fine, The intro is done.
Now listen up.
Do you have math trauma?
Are you convinced you will neverchange the way you feel about
(00:25):
math?
Have you ever wanted to hearwhat it's like to actually give
or get math therapy?
Like, do you watch Shrinking orCouples Therapy and wish you
could be in the room whensomeone gets therapized, but,
like, about their math trauma?
Well, guess what?
Today is your lucky day ImagineLearning has a podcast called
HeartWork, and they did thisthree-part series this year on
(00:47):
math anxiety.
For one of those parts, theirpodcast team literally flew to
Toronto so that I could givetheir host, Lauren Keeling, some
IRL math therapy.
Now, throughout the series,Lauren was on a mission to
explore her own lifelong mathtrauma, and that brought her and
her team to spend an entire dayat my tutoring studio in
Toronto.
(01:08):
That three-part series came outin the summer.
The other episodes featured,Deborah Peart and Peter
Liljedahl, and the whole seriesis like this Wondery true crime
podcast, but about healing mathtrauma.
We'll link in the show notes.
As a bonus, HeartWork put myfull one-on-one math therapy
session with Lauren on theirYouTube, and today they have
agreed to let us share thataudio with you in a podcast
(01:32):
exclusive.
It gets even better, becauseguys, Lauren Keeling's math
story does not end at that onesession we had together months
ago.
Her life, as it turns out, hastotally changed in ways she
never could have imagined.
So I decided to do a follow-upsession with her so that we
could unpack how math therapychanged her life and her sense
of self, and next week you aregoing to hear that.
(01:54):
Like, guys, this is an epictwo-parter.
We've never done anything likethis before, and I can't wait
for you to hear it, so buckleup, because you're about to get
a seat on my pink velvet couchnext to Lauren Keeling.
You're gonna hear about why shedeveloped such crippling math
anxiety so early on, how that'sdefined her as a person and
limited what she thought she wascapable of, and then you're
gonna hear growth mindset inaction as we work through it in
(02:18):
real time.
I'm not gonna tell you whathappens at the end, because you
have to hear it to believe it.
And guys, this is the one.
This is the episode to text yourfriend with math anxiety, your
friend who's convinced they'renot a math person and never will
be, the teacher you work withwho's like,"Mm, it's ELA or
bust.
I can't do math," your entireteacher group chat, your
students' parents.
This is the one.
(02:38):
This will give them hope andchange their lives.
All right, here it is, me andthe brave and courageous Lauren
Keeling on HeartWork
Lauren Keeling (02:50):
Vanessa, welcome to HeartWork.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:52):
And Lauren, welcome to Math Therapy.
Lauren Keeling (02:54):
I'm nervous.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:56):
Okay, so this is actually a really good
starting point.
Good.
I actually am curious.
Your anxiety that you thinkyou're walking in here with is
around math.
Can you pinpoint what you'renervous about?
Lauren Keeling (03:05):
Failure.
I am-
Vanessa Vakharia (03:06):
Oh, okay.
Wow
Lauren Keeling (03:07):
terrified that you're going to ask me to do
math today, and my entire bodyis going to lock up, and my
brain is going to freeze, andI'm not going to be able to
produce anything for you.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:15):
Hmm.
And what would ha- if thathappened, first of all, I am
not, there's no, there's, I'mnot gonna, like, whip out a time
test.
So let's go with this.
So your literal fear is I'mgonna ask you to do math, you
are gonna, like, freeze.
You're not gonna be able toproduce anything.
Lauren Keeling (03:31):
Yes.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:31):
Okay.
Lauren Keeling (03:31):
And I'm afraid it's going to be really basic
math-
Vanessa Vakharia (03:34):
Okay
Lauren Keeling (03:34):
because it doesn't matter what level of
math it is, if you ask me toproduce it, and if you put a
time capsule on it, I actuallywould probably melt into the
couch.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:43):
Here's my question to you.
If I asked you what eight pluseight was, and you couldn't get
it, and, right, like, your fearcame true, your fear, which is
that you are gonna lock up,you're gonna be unable to
produce.
You might even get the wronganswer, even worse, on a public
forum- Yes like, people arelistening, what would that mean
about you?
Lauren Keeling (04:02):
That I am a failure.
That I am a dummy.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:07):
When is the first time you felt this way?
Lauren Keeling (04:09):
I, in first grade.
It centers on those, those timedtests.
That's when we started doingflashcards.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:16):
Hmm.
Lauren Keeling (04:17):
I see Mrs.
V walking down the aisles in therows that we were in, and she
sets this paper down in front ofme that I have just finished,
and it is full of red Xs.
And that very moment is the veryfirst moment that I can recall
in my life feeling like I wasn'tvery good at this thing and that
something was wrong with me.
(04:39):
And then it happened again, andthen it happened again
Vanessa Vakharia (04:43):
Okay, so that sounds, first of all, very, very
hard.
And I can, like, feel theemotion, like, coming out of you
as you talk about it.
It is, it's really interesting,right?
How core, like, you, you said itwas a core memory- but then the
evidence is you literallyremember every detail.
I do.
You remember what she waswearing, you remember, like, how
you felt.
Can we talk about themathematics content?
(05:03):
Like, so you got the stuffwrong, you got the red Xs.
Time te- forget the timed test,were you able to, in a non-timed
situation, do what was on thepaper?
Lauren Keeling (05:12):
Perhaps not perfectly or well, but I felt
like I had the time to be ableto count on my fingers.
I could do touch math.
The, the
Vanessa Vakharia (05:19):
world's OG manipulative, everyone.
Lauren Keeling (05:22):
Yes, the original.
I had to do it a completelydifferent way from what the very
straightforward way that myteacher was doing it up on the
board.
Vanessa Vakharia (05:29):
Got it.
So there's a few, like, reallyinteresting things, which is
that, just from a theoreticalpoint of view, and, like, a
scientific point of view, it'sreally important that we hang
onto this moment for a second,because this is years and years,
this is decades later, decadeslater.
Decades later.
Decades later, and your bodyremembers that experience.
It does.
And actually, with math trauma,and any sort of microtrauma or
(05:51):
macrotrauma, our bodies do goback into the state we were in
when we had the first traumaticincident.
So I actually want you to justgive yourself some grace as a
bigger picture.
We're gonna talk about this morelater, but to remember that now,
every time you're faced withmath, you are back to being that
six-year-old.
It's not just made up.
Like, that is what's happening,and how can you possibly perform
(06:14):
mathematically when you feellike...
Like, you can't.
You can't access your workingmemory.
Like, your amygdala is beinghijacked.
You're back in that traumamemory.
And I just wanna reflect back,there's a part of you that's
like,"Even though I'm able towork this stuff out, and, like,
get the result and get a goodgrade, it doesn't actually
count, because I'm not doing itfast enough.
I'm not doing it the wayeveryone else is.
I've gotta use these tools noone else is doing, so it doesn't
(06:35):
actually count as me being goodat math."
Lauren Keeling (06:37):
Yes.
I had to figure out, I had todraw the pictures, I had to make
the circles.
You know, I had to do all of thedifferent strategies.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:43):
And is that, is that not being good at math
in your mind?
Lauren Keeling (06:45):
No, it's not being good at math- Right in my
mind.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:47):
And, and why?
Lauren Keeling (06:49):
Because there's one way to do math.
My childhood teaching tells methere's one way to do math, and
if you have to do all of thisextraneous stuff to get there,
you're not doing it right.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:58):
Yeah.
Lauren Keeling (06:58):
One pathway.
But can I tell you one more bigpiece of math trauma-
Vanessa Vakharia (07:02):
Tell me whatever you want, yeah
Lauren Keeling (07:03):
that lives in my grown-up life?
Vanessa Vakharia (07:04):
Yes.
Lauren Keeling (07:06):
from a career perspective, I've done a lot of
different things, and when Itransitioned out of my very
first job as a journalist andmoved into...
I decided that we were raisinggirls.
I needed a different schedule inmy life.
I wanted to be a teacher.
My mom was a teacher.
I knew I loved kindergarten.
It was, my heart was called toit.
I had to go back to school andget my master's degree, but then
(07:26):
came the really difficult partbecause in Ohio, where I was
getting certified, I had to takefour different tests in the core
subjects, right?
So math, reading, uh, science,and social studies.
I went to take my math Praxis,and I'm sitting in this little
quiet room, and these sweetladies are on the outside of the
glass, and you know you're notallowed to talk when you're
taking those tests.
Sure.
You're, like, in your littlecubicle.
So I'm working through thistest, working through this test,
(07:48):
and I'm taking it at the end,and I fail it, this big test
that's going to allow me to getmy certification.
Mm.
And I fail it by just a verymenial number, less than 10
points.
Vanessa Vakharia (07:59):
Oh my God.
Lauren Keeling (08:00):
And I was super disappointed, but I knew I could
take it again.
So I went back to my tutor, andwe bought all of the Math for
Dummies books and Ma- PraxisMath for Dummies books, and we
studied through all of those.
Probably in
Vanessa Vakharia (08:11):
retrospect, like, not a good name, okay?
Lauren Keeling (08:12):
Terrible name.
Vanessa Vakharia (08:13):
I know.
Lauren Keeling (08:13):
So we did all of those books, and I went back and
I took that test again thesecond time, and I was really
trying to focus my brain on,like,"You can do this.
This is a really important thingto you.
You have the skill," and Ifailed it again.
Vanessa Vakharia (08:24):
Okay.
Lauren Keeling (08:24):
By this time, the ladies in the, on the other
side of the zoo glass areinvested in what I'm doing as
well, and they were disappointedfor me.
So I'm gonna do it again.
I'm gonna do it a third time.
We're gonna do all the samestuff over again.
We're gonna keep practicing.
I failed it by two points- Oh my
Vanessa Vakharia (08:39):
God
Lauren Keeling (08:39):
on the third time.
I had one more chance to takeit.
Vanessa Vakharia (08:43):
This is so stressful.
Lauren Keeling (08:45):
So
Vanessa Vakharia (08:46):
stressful.
Were you stressed in there?
Lauren Keeling (08:47):
Yes.
Vanessa Vakharia (08:47):
Okay.
Lauren Keeling (08:48):
By the third time, I was, I was not, I was
not well-
Vanessa Vakharia (08:52):
Yeah
Lauren Keeling (08:52):
taking that third test.
Vanessa Vakharia (08:53):
I got it.
Lauren Keeling (08:54):
Because the, the real life, the grown-up pressure
was on this.
Yeah.
This was a career.
I was making a huge shift away.
I was taking a chance.
I- this was the only way I couldget a job to teach, is if I
passed this thing.
After all of that, on the fourthtest, I did pass, and I barely
passed, and I loudly celebratedin my quiet cubicle, in the
space you're not supposed totalk, and the ladies outside the
(09:14):
zoo glass celebrated when theysaw my arms go up- Oh my God
because we were just all livingthis moment that, like-
Vanessa Vakharia (09:19):
Yeah
Lauren Keeling (09:20):
here's this poor girl who has come in here 1,000
times and just keeps missing itby, by a mark.
So all that to say, that wasjust another grown-up moment for
me that proved, in my mind, thatsmall thing that I knew that I
was missing when I was doingthat math, that if I could have
just done it the way they taughtme to do it and I didn't have to
(09:42):
do all of the other stuff to getto that answer, I would've been
quicker, I could've had moretime to check my answers, and I
probably would've passed.
So there's a lot that's sort ofknitted into that.
Vanessa Vakharia (09:53):
Okay, love the Like, I don't love it, but,
like, this totally makes so muchsense.
Lauren Keeling (09:56):
I believe that deep in my soul.
Even knowing what I know today,even having the experiences I
had today, teaching childrenmath as a kindergarten teacher,
working with teachers p- to pickand, and put out a curriculum in
our district, even knowing allthe things I know today, I
still, in my soul, when I digdown deep and think about math
for Lauren Keeling, there isonly one way to solve that
problem and you're not doing itright.
Vanessa Vakharia (10:17):
It- this is so interesting,'cause when I work
with teachers, I often, like, Ido a lot of talks around, like,
defining failure and success,and I find educators c- very
often will, like, have this d-idea of success for the people
they lead, right?
Either the teachers they workwith or their students, and
they'll be like,"Success isjust, like You know, it's trying
and failing.
It's showing up.
It's whatever." But theirstandard for themselves is
(10:39):
always, like, completelydifferent.
Yep.
Right?
Like, and it definitely soundslike that for you, because
off-screen or mic or whatever,you and I were talking, and you
were saying that one of yourdeep core beliefs is that there
are, like, multiple ways tolearn things and do things, and
even if in math you've gotta getto the one answer, there's so
many ways you can do it and allof those are equally valuable.
(11:00):
And now it seems like you'rejust, like, completely
gaslighting yourself.
Lauren Keeling (11:02):
But not for me.
But not- Yeah, not for youeveryone else in the world-
Yeah.
can have all the ways to get tomastery, but for me, nope,
there's, there's one way and Idon't know how to do it.
Okay.
So fast-forward, I got my, mylicensure.
I was hired thankfully, to teachthird grade.
And the books in third grade areamazing.
They're so fun to teach.
But do you know what else youteach in third grade?
Vanessa Vakharia (11:23):
What?
Lauren Keeling (11:23):
Fractions.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:24):
Oh my God, do you love that?
I hate it- Cool
Lauren Keeling (11:26):
deeply.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:28):
Yeah.
So what happened?
Lauren Keeling (11:30):
So I taught fractions, and I'm air quoting,
I taught fractions.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:34):
Why are you air quoting?
Lauren Keeling (11:35):
Because I just had to read directly from the
book because that was a style ofmath that I didn't understand
until I started failing forwardat cooking and using measuring
cups.
Fractions finally started,started to make a little bit of
sense for me in my 30s when Iwas practicing it that way,
which would've been a greatstrategy to bring into my
classroom- Yeah, like
Vanessa Vakharia (11:53):
I'm like-
Lauren Keeling (11:53):
for the students so
Vanessa Vakharia (11:54):
I don't wanna be, like, sarcastic and snippy,
but I'm like, oh, wow, when youencountered the thing in real
life and it was actuallyrelevant- Amazing it made sense.
Like, shocking.
Lauren Keeling (12:00):
Not separate and apart and using strange-
Vanessa Vakharia (12:02):
Wow
Lauren Keeling (12:03):
things in a book.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So as soon- I- Third grade, thechildren were wonderful, the
books were great, fractions werehorrible.
I was panicked every day that Iwas destroying math futures for
children because I myself wasuncomfortable teaching
fractions, and I felt like therewas just no possible way that
wasn't somehow seeping into achild in the classroom who also
was finding it to be a littleconfusing and uncomfortable.
And so I only spent one year inthird grade, truly because
(12:26):
pointing to, I just, I justcould not torture myself through
teaching fractions.
Yeah.
And I got out, and I startedteaching kindergarten.
Vanessa Vakharia (12:33):
There are probably a lot of teachers
listening that feel the exactway- Mm that you felt in grade
three.
Lauren Keeling (12:37):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (12:38):
What would you tell those teachers?
Like, would you tell them to...
What, what would you say?
Lauren Keeling (12:42):
It's hard as a first-year teacher to feel like
you're doing good work- Yeah inany space because you're just
figuring it out.
And then it's also extra hardwhen it's something that you're
not confident in yourself.
And- If I separate myself fromhow Lauren Keeling felt, and I
look at you as the administratorthat I became, I would say,
"We're gonna figure it outtogether." Oh.
"And I'm gonna give you all thesupports that you need, and I
(13:04):
actually know a teacher justright across the hall from you
who is really doing great workteaching children fractions and
can maybe support you in this."As a grown-up who has had great
people in her life and who hasraised daughters and lived in
the world, that what that personneeds is just really what you're
doing for me right here,providing an opening for them to
(13:24):
talk about it and think about itand actually connect to what the
real root issue is.
And then how do we figure itout?
You love third grade.
Let's pretend that that's whatit is.
You love third grade.
Oh, but I cannot- This is thespace you wanna be in
Vanessa Vakharia (13:36):
imagine teaching third grade, but yes.
Lauren Keeling (13:38):
Yeah, there's a lot that's happening in, in and
with third graders.
Vanessa Vakharia (13:40):
No, but I love it.
I love it so much.
Yeah.
Okay?
So let's say you love it.
I
Lauren Keeling (13:42):
love large rooms of chi- little
Vanessa Vakharia (13:44):
children.
Lauren Keeling (13:44):
You're just...
Yes.
You, you love that.
Tons of people are cut for thirdgrade, and that's where they
wanna be.
The math is hard, and that's notgonna change.
But you're smart.
You're a teacher.
You passed all these hard tests.
You've done all of these things,and you have a really big heart
for helping these childrenfigure it out.
So let's also have a really bigheart for you figuring it out,
(14:04):
and let your heart be big foryourself to figure it out.
What kind of grappling work canwe do to get there?
How can I help you?
Vanessa Vakharia (14:11):
I...
We're gonna need, once this isdone, for you to play ba- that
back to yourself- to the grade,the third-grade teacher you
were, and I wish someone hadsaid that to you.
But also, I fully support beinglike,"I don't wanna torture
myself."
Lauren Keeling (14:25):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (14:25):
We are adults.
Lauren Keeling (14:26):
Yes.
Vanessa Vakharia (14:26):
Okay?
We get to choose now.
We don't have to do anything wedon't like.
Yeah.
Right?
So, so you are, uh, uh, fullyable to be like,"I actually...
This..." Like, there are tons ofthings I do where I'm like,"I
could do this- but it's gonnatake a lot of work, and I don't
wanna put in that work," or,"This is gonna make me
miserable, and I don't wanna doit." Yeah.
It doesn't mean I don't think Ican do it, but I think that is a
(14:47):
bit of the difference, and youas an administrator, and all the
administrators listening to thiswho probably have teachers that
they are leading who feel thisway, I think this is really
important to hear.
You're not the only one whothinks this.
This is one of the key argumentswe will hear from students and
from teachers.
They will say,"It just didn'tcome naturally for me." But what
(15:08):
I like the most about math isthat it is a gateway into really
highlighting how someone feelsabout themselves, and it is a
gateway to changing the waysomebody feels about themselves
as a core identity shift.
Like, I think math can do thatbecause math is so weighted, and
it gives people such visceralexperiences, often negative-
(15:31):
often so identity-based becausewe do use it as this identity
piece, like you're either a mathperson or not- that we can use
it to, like, leverage thisincredible identity shift with
people.
Most of us learned that failureis really bad- at some point.
Definitely failure in school isreally bad.
And so math was, like, thisperfect storm for you- Yeah that
(15:51):
has formed this childhoodprotector part, as, like, IFS
would say, that now lives withinyou and wants to make sure you
never feel that way again.
But, like, the core story isuntrue because your core story
is,"Unless I do math in thisspecific exact way, I can't be
good at it.""And, and if I'm notgood at it, I'm a failure." In
(16:16):
our society, math is the thingwe associate with intelligence.
Lauren Keeling (16:19):
Yes.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:20):
Right?
Like, we don't- Yes, absolutelycall Picasso smart.
We don't call LeBron Jamessmart.
Like, we call ma- Like, whenyou're good at math, you are
smart.
Lauren Keeling (16:27):
That's so true.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:28):
I'm tr- I don't wanna make this gendered,
but I am My master's thesis wascalled Imagining a World Where
Paris Hilton Loves Math.
And it is specifically aboutwomen and math.
I-
Lauren Keeling (16:37):
That's a fantastic title-
Vanessa Vakharia (16:38):
Thank you- by the way so much.
It was about mediarepresentation, you know, of
mathematicians and of women, andhow so many women self-select
out of mathematics- because theyfeel like there's no room for
their full identity to mergewith the identity of
mathematician.
Lauren Keeling (16:53):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:54):
There is a lot of research around this.
So it's not You know, I, I, Ibring it up because women tend
to be so much harder onthemselves than they are with
those around them, and this isa, a large reason we see a
discrepancy when it comes togender and mathematics- is
because of a wh- a, a wholerange of things here, but this
(17:14):
being one of them, this idea ofif you can't achieve perfection-
then it means that you are afailure, and there is nothing
worse than being a failure, soyou stick to the things you're
good at.
Kids know that.
They know that they areliterally one wrong answer away
from getting written off.
And I hope you're seeing thesemajor themes coming out.
That math symbolizes so muchmore for us, right?
(17:38):
It symbolizes what intelligenceis.
Lauren Keeling (17:40):
Yes.
We just bought a house.
We were talking all aboutmortgages, and numbers, and
percentages, but I certainlydidn't wanna have any hands in
trying to actually do thenumbers, and think about the
numbers, and look at thenumbers.
It just, one, made me supernervous because what if I got it
wrong?
I just hated the fact that evenif I were going to sit down and
try to suss those numbers outand figure out what it might or
(18:01):
could be, I could be wrong, andthat could have given us a poor
picture of what- Sure we weregoing to do, right?
Vanessa Vakharia (18:06):
That's, like, an actual risk.
Lauren Keeling (18:07):
Yeah.
So there's- Yeah there are,there are real consequences
connected to the math that Iwould be responsible for doing,
or thinking through, or puttingon paper and actually sharing
today.
And so when I say I feelindifferent, I feel indifferent
because I'm just saying,"Okay,someone else can figure this
out.
I can put this on someone else'splate who is going to get it
right because they are mathsmart, and I don't have to worry
(18:29):
about the outcome." If I do it,we gotta worry about the outcome
'cause we're gonna have to lookat it with a magnifying glass
and have somebody else check mywork, right?
Vanessa Vakharia (18:38):
My goal with anyone, e- even with students,
is like, I don't need you tolike go into STEM or do math.
I actually really do not care.
I care that you believe that youcould if you wanted to or needed
to.
That's actually what I careabout.
Like, like right now you're notin a position to be figuring out
mortgages, right?
Right.
Like you like have math traumafrom grade one.
(18:58):
You don't like it.
It sucks, and there's someonewho can do it.
So like, it's really, there'snothing...
I don't want us feeling badabout that.
Yeah.
Like you don't need to be likedoing your own math.
It's like when somebody uses acalculator I'm like,"Don't feel
bad about it." Yeah.
"Maybe you just didn't feel likethinking about it in the
moment." Like I don't care whatyou're doing, I just want you to
know you're capable of doing it.
Again, uh, when I was talkingabout my master's thesis, the,
(19:19):
the big finding from that wasthat for young girls, like the
girls that I was working at, inorder to become math people it
meant they had to shed theidentity they had.
For example, a lot of them were,were like cheerleaders.
We have never seen a cheerleaderrepresented as being good at
math in the media.
The two are the opposite.
We all know the movie, right?
(19:40):
Like you're either thecheerleader who needs like the
like, uh, the, the smart girl tolike help her with math, and
then you give the smart girl amakeover and then she be- like
whatever.
So there was a very big identityconflict.
These girls were great at math.
They were getting 90s.
They were getting As in my, mygrade 10 classroom, but they
were deter- they were like,"Weare not good at math." And when
we really dug down to it, it waskind of like this conversation
(20:00):
we're having here.
Yeah.
Where like the proof, theevidence was that they were good
at math.
But it was like, but if theybecame good at math, did, did
they have to let go of somethingelse?
Yes.
Did it mean that they had toengage in different behavior?
And I think we really disregardthe identity.
You know, we talk about mathidentity a lot.
But I think we're missing a verykey component of math identity
(20:22):
which is how does math identity,like in the Venn diagram of
identities, how does mathidentity intersect with our own
identity?
Mm.
Is it diametrically opposed toit?
What, what happens, right?
Like math identity isn't justabout math.
Is, it's about what math meansin relationship with all the
other identities we hold.
Lauren Keeling (20:42):
I, you have struck me speechless.
Which has never happened-
Vanessa Vakharia (20:48):
Okay, I
Lauren Keeling (20:48):
know in the history of this podcast.
Don't believe that.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:53):
The problem is, what being a math person
also means, whether we choose toaccept it or not, is it means
things like you don't likecreative things.
Like, think about everystereotype of what- Yes a math
person.
You definitely don't like musicand the arts.
You're a logical thinker.
You're boring.
You always get the right answer.
(21:14):
You sit and study all the time.
There's so many things the termmeans.
So the problem is, I'm notsurprised when you're like,"You
know what?
I kind of...
Being not a math person is partof my core identity." I think
that it's a really interestingquestion to ask because the
question is, should we bepushing people to become a math
(21:35):
person?
Or is there, is it perhaps,counterproductive to our goal,
which is to...
Like, my goal is to show everysingle student that they can
build an, a better relationshipwith math.
It's for people to just feelcapable and to be like,"Hey, you
know what?
I'm capable of more than Ithought I was, including these
fractions."
Lauren Keeling (21:53):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:53):
But my agenda is not to be like,"No, you need
to call yourselves a, yourself amath person." I, I hate labeling
in general, so why are we nowusing this as a label?
Lauren Keeling (22:04):
I don't have to become a math person to just be
able to do math.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:08):
Exactly.
Lauren Keeling (22:09):
I even think about that from a school
perspective, to release childrenfrom, and teachers from, are you
this person or are you thatperson?
Vanessa Vakharia (22:19):
Why are we doing that?
Ew.
Lauren Keeling (22:22):
And it's okay to like math, and it's okay to like
reading.
But to like those things doesnot make you that person.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:30):
And to like those things doesn't mean all of
a sudden you have to go into aSTEM career.
Lauren Keeling (22:34):
So what is it, Vanessa, that you do?
What did I come here needingfrom you today?
Vanessa Vakharia (22:40):
I, I mean, you should tell me that probably.
It probably shouldn't be foryou.
But no, I think that, the numberone thing people need in my
experience is validation.
Lauren Keeling (22:54):
Mm.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:55):
They need to feel val- feel validated.
They need to see that they'renot alone.
And the reason I like to alwaysstart opening the conversation,
and whenever I do a talk I dothis, I say, I, I frame it as I
would like everyone to thinkabout whether they've ever had a
negative experience with math.
That's my number one teachermove, and we did it here today.
(23:16):
The reason that can be sogroundbreaking for people is
when they start talking aboutit, which you did, right?
And I hope for you it's reallyempowering because it shows you
that you were not born withthese feelings.
You developed these feelings,right?
Emotions encode experience.
When we have an experience thatis very emotional, we remember
that experience.
(23:36):
It forms a memory that it's veryhard to let go of.
Neuroscience shows us that thepercentage of people born with a
natural aptitude for mathematicsis so small.
Like, like, you know when youthink about like a prodigy or
something like that?
The It exists, but thepercentage is so, so, so, so, so
small, and other than thatsubset of people Math ability
(23:59):
being something that you areborn with, like nature versus
nurture- the nature part of it,it is so, so, so small- in terms
of its effect on your futuremath ability, and the biggest
predictor of math ability isnurture.
It's practice.
Like, have you read Outliers byMalcolm Gladwell?
Lauren Keeling (24:19):
No.
Vanessa Vakharia (24:20):
Oh my God, what?
Okay, no, stop.
Okay, we, like, just, this book,it's about, like, the most
famous hockey players, the mostfamous mathematicians, the most
famous mu- musicians, the onesthat you would believe, like,
they must have been born with anexceptionality, they're so good
at it.
And he did all this research andfound that the one thing all of
these people had in common, theyhad one thing in common, and the
(24:40):
one thing they had in common wasthat they had all spent over
10,000 hours practicing theircraft.
Wow.
So, and if you think about itthat way, to put in 10,000
hours, it would help if youstarted at a young age.
It's a lot of hours to put in,right?
So often, it- we, we conflatenature and nurture because the
conversation would be like,"Well, from a, from a young age,
(25:01):
they were so good at thisthing," but it would often be
someone who was, like, tinkeringwith the piano when they, like,
were three years old- or, like,you know, Eugenia Cheng talks
about how her parents, like,would read her math stories at
night.
Like, instead of story time,they had math games.
Like, so w- we have been showntime and time again that nurture
plays a larger role, yet welove, we love the juicy story of
(25:22):
people born with this crazything, and it also gives us an
excuse- right?
To be like,"Well, I just wasborn at a deficit."
Lauren Keeling (25:30):
Yep.
But it's just, it's not true.
So tell me how this feeds intothe work that you do.
Vanessa Vakharia (25:35):
Okay.
So I feel like I wrote MathTherapy after years and years
and years of, you know...
I, I think if you talk to mostteachers, they're like,"Yeah,
I'm doing therapy in the mathclassroom," right?
Sure.
Like, a lot of the work I'mdoing is really therapeutic.
so I wrote it after years andyears and years, over 20 years
of teaching and tutoring andworking one-on-one with kids,
and, Really realizing that the,the number one thing, I mean,
(25:59):
I've had so many different typesof students in this space, and
the number one thing that makesa difference is actually not
whether they're taught throughthe algorithm or not, or with
worksheets or not.
It's, I mean, those thingsmatter, but the number one thing
that mattered was actually thetherapeutic element of
interacting with them.
It was doing stuff like this.
It was having theseconversations.
(26:20):
It was h- it was so emotional.
One of the biggest strategies iswhen somebody says they feel bad
at math or they're not, they'renot good at math, I often start
arguing with them.
I'll be like,"But you're doingmath, but you do this.
Like look, you took down theChristmas tree, like, that's
math." And what I'll find iswhat they actually really mean
is,"I wasn't good at schoolmath."
Lauren Keeling (26:41):
Mm.
Vanessa Vakharia (26:42):
Like,"I wasn't good at the math that got
graded, that got evaluated." SoI wanna sit with you, and we're
gonna actually do a littleskills analysis.
Okay.
Okay?
So I want you to name me mathskills.
Like, or, I, so here's thecount.
It's math skills or things thatare math.
So I'm gonna write the f- onething on here.
I'm gonna say mental math.
Lauren Keeling (27:02):
Okay.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:03):
Okay?
Give me one.
Lauren Keeling (27:05):
Uh, addition.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:06):
Addition.
Okay, great.
I'm gonna say, baking
Lauren Keeling (27:14):
Mm.
Planting my garden
Vanessa Vakharia (27:16):
What do, like, what do you do?
Lauren Keeling (27:18):
Making my rows, figuring out the distances and
the, the distances between eachof my flowers that I'm planting-
How
Vanessa Vakharia (27:23):
do you do
Lauren Keeling (27:24):
that?
the depth of putting the bulbsin the ground.
I,
Vanessa Vakharia (27:27):
I use- Oh, like, do you use a ruler?
Lauren Keeling (27:28):
I use non-standard measurement, my
arm, but-
Vanessa Vakharia (27:31):
But you-
Lauren Keeling (27:31):
I told you I love non-standard measurement.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:33):
No, but that's really good.
Okay, plant-
Lauren Keeling (27:34):
So yes, it's gardening, you know.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:37):
Planting a garden.
Now, if I had a student who feltbad at math, I would do this
with them, and then I'd be like,"Okay, I would look up how these
tied to the content I wasteaching right now." Mm.
So I'd be like,"Planting agarden.
Here are all the units that I'mteaching this year.
Tell me exactly how this tiesin." Why would I do that?
Because you, Lauren, are sittinghere being like,"Yeah, I guess I
(27:58):
do this math, but I didn'treally qualify it as math."
Lauren Keeling (28:00):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (28:00):
In your mind, I bet you're like,"It doesn't
really count." And that is wherewe start seeing that it is not
math the problem.
It- that's the problem.
It's the way we are treatingmath in a school setting that is
ruining math for everyone.
Yes.
Like, you were never graded atthis, and that is the only thing
that counts.
Okay, so now I'm gonna give youthis.
Okay.
And I want you to, with thispink pen, I want you to circle,
(28:21):
like, anything you feel good at.
Lauren Keeling (28:23):
I feel good at?
Vanessa Vakharia (28:23):
Yeah.
Lauren Keeling (28:23):
Well, planting a garden is first.
Vanessa Vakharia (28:25):
Okay.
And you feel, like, satisfiedafter or
Lauren Keeling (28:27):
something?
I do.
I feel really great after Iplant my garden.
Just the way that it looks likeit fits in the space- Okay
that's a real puzzle to me thatI love putting together.
Oh
Vanessa Vakharia (28:36):
my God, you put puzzles on the list.
Puzzles.
Yeah.
Okay.
So I want us to look at this.
So we have 19 items on here, andyou circled one, two, three,
four, five, six, seven, eight,nine, 10, 11.
11 out of 19.
Hmm.
Over a half of the things onhere you circled, okay?
I would now like you to look atthis and ask yourself, do you
(28:57):
believe everything you circledhas some sort of mathematical
component?
Lauren Keeling (29:03):
I do.
Vanessa Vakharia (29:03):
You've circled a lot of math stuff.
And there's a lot of stuff youcircled that I wouldn't be able
to circle.
Does this change in any way theway you feel about your math
ability?
And you can say no, I'm justcurious, looking at all the math
things you circled.
Lauren Keeling (29:15):
It does because it's what I think, I don't think
about sneaky math.
So for me, sneaky math is where-
Vanessa Vakharia (29:23):
I'm sorry, pardon?
Lauren Keeling (29:26):
Sneaky math, where we're, where we're looking
at angles and thinking aboutputting together, uh, my garden
or arranging my furniture.
I'm not actively working andmanipulating numbers.
Vanessa Vakharia (29:39):
Sneaky math.
Lauren Keeling (29:41):
I don't mind putting my garden together
because I don't actually have tocome into contact with numbers
when I'm doing it.
Okay.
Vanessa Vakharia (29:47):
I fully get what you mean, 100%.
Lauren Keeling (29:49):
Measuring and baking is sneaky math.
It's sneaky math.
I didn't realize I was doingfractions until I had a moment
where I thought,"Wait, threequarters of a cup is the same as
a..."
Vanessa Vakharia (29:56):
If we made more sneaky math, so can we call
it implicit math just for whatI'm gonna say?
Sure.
It's gonna sound like more of amic drop.
Okay, so if we made moreimplicit math explicit, more
people would realize how muchmath they were doing and how
good they were at it.
Lauren Keeling (30:11):
Yes.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:12):
Think about how much discussion we can now
be having with kids.
And kids are like,"Oh my God,well, I do this," and then just
like we were, we're like,"Okay,well, what about this?
And what...
Okay, fine, if you're gonna saybaking, I'm gonna say
measuring." Now we're realizinghow much math we're doing.
For a lot of kids, and probablyfor you a little, you're like,
"Okay, but it's not feeling likeit's, I didn't say algebra, and
I didn't say sine and cosine."So we wanna tie it to the things
(30:34):
we're doing in our curriculumand the content we're teaching.
We do wanna tie it in- and, andgive it that language.
That really helps.
As we've established, on thissheet here, you have so many
math superpowers that I don'thave.
And every single person hasthese latent math skills, these,
sorry, implicit sneaky mathskills- that are not necessarily
(30:55):
brought to the fore.
And part of what you were sayingearlier is you felt like you
weren't good at math'cause youweren't doing it the way you
were supposed to or the wayother people do it.
And what I want everyone to knowis that is actually your math
superpower.
Lauren Keeling (31:08):
Mm.
Vanessa Vakharia (31:08):
Is that when you're planning the garden,
you're using your- You've madeup this whole method, right?
Like, you're doing, you have allthese skills that not everybody
in the class has.
And in a classroom of students,you are gonna have kids who have
all circled different things onthis page, and that is not bad.
That is the blessing in it, isto be like,"Guys, look, you guys
(31:29):
all have these different skills.
And in our room combined, wehave, like, 30-plus math
superpowers.
We have all something differentto bring to the table." It also
create, helps create thiscollaborative environment where
instead of kids competing to oneanother, you can be like,"Hey,
you need help with that?
Well, like, Sally circled thisthing.
Their, their math superpower isproblem-solving.
Go talk to them about this.
(31:50):
Oh, you need help with counting?
Didn't somebody..." Like, right?
And so everyone is now notcompeting with one another, but
realizing that the whole isgreater than the sum of the
parts.
Mm.
Okay, the last thing I wanted usto do is on your phone, give me
your phone.
Lauren Keeling (32:02):
Yes.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:03):
Open up Duolingo.
They have now added math as alanguage, okay?
I see that.
So add math to your thing.
And great.
So we're not...
Do you wanna do a lesson rightnow?
Lauren Keeling (32:13):
Sure.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:13):
Oh, okay.
We're now suddenly doing math.
Okay, go for it.
I'm not even looking.
Okay, keep going.
Lauren Keeling (32:18):
Okay.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:18):
I think there's only a few.
It'll take, like, one minute.
Okay.
But you do that.
See how it goes, and I'm gonna-Tell
Lauren Keeling (32:23):
me if this is a, while I'm working on this- Yeah
maybe tell me, is this apractical strategy for-
Vanessa Vakharia (32:28):
I have gotten-
Lauren Keeling (32:28):
parents, teachers?
Vanessa Vakharia (32:29):
The reason I love it is, is it's, so when we
go into avoidance with math,like you were saying, you avoid
math.
Lauren Keeling (32:35):
I do.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:35):
We're not gonna get better at something
when we avoid it.
That's just, like, how lifeworks.
Lauren Keeling (32:40):
I'm doing really well.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:42):
Just, sorry, I can't hear my lo- my voice over
all the loud bings and bops-happening from Lauren's mastery
of mathematics right now.
so it's three minutes a day, andit starts building confidence,
and but more than that, it showsyou, it rewires the thing in
your brain that you have, whichis,"When I do math, a horrible
thing happens." Whether you getthe answers right or wrong on
(33:03):
the app, you're seeing that whenyou do math, a horrible thing
does not happen.
Lauren Keeling (33:07):
Actually, a really joyful thing happens.
Vanessa Vakharia (33:08):
A joyful thing happens, and even if you get
something wrong, you're justgonna try again the next day.
When we have math anxiety, weget stuck in the anxiety
avoidance cycle.
And we are never gonna get outof it unless we break the cycle
out of avoidance, which means weneed to do some math, and it's a
great way to do math.
You are really crushing here.
Lauren Keeling (33:23):
I'm really doing a great job.
Vanessa Vakharia (33:24):
What is happening?
Okay, we're almost done.
Lauren Keeling (33:26):
Yep.
I pulled something out of thisthat you just said- Yeah that
Duolingo's doing.
Math is a language.
Vanessa Vakharia (33:33):
Well, I, right?
Can, can I just tell you whatthey added?
They added math and music.
Those were the two newlanguages, and I was like,
"Again- Yes this is a languageissue." It is a language.
It is.
And it is okay for language tobe hard to learn.
Preach.
And we're also now really-
Lauren Keeling (33:50):
I think I'm done.
I don't feel stressed becauseI...
Vanessa Vakharia (33:54):
I mean, I'm done here.
I'm finished.
Lauren Keeling (33:57):
Well, I'm a learning legend.
Vanessa Vakharia (33:59):
Is that what it says?
Uh-huh.
Okay, so every day, just do itfor two weeks and see what
happens.
Can I just point out that youjust not only did math, you did
math while we're all actuallykind of now impatiently waiting.
At this point, we're on thethird battery.
I am staring at you.
You actually were talking at thesame time, and you're being
recorded.
You did not seem stressed.
Lauren Keeling (34:17):
Landing on the fact that math is a language-
Vanessa Vakharia (34:20):
That's crazy
Lauren Keeling (34:21):
that we speak is a big deal for me personally as
a learner, as a teacher, as athinker.
It lifts, releases, throws away,pushes out the window a lot of
the pressure around just havingto show up and be good at it
because we don't expect anyoneto show up and just be good at a
(34:41):
language.
We teach really explicitly andthoughtfully and with full
hearts.
It's the same with math.
Math is a language.
Should we just end with theDuolingo beep being like,"Good
job"?
Vanessa Vakharia (34:53):
Yay.
Should we crown Lauren?
Oh! There you go.
There you go, the, the unicornof understanding.
Lauren Keeling (34:59):
Oh.
I love it.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:01):
There she is, our queen.
Our math queen.
Lauren Keeling (35:05):
Oh, I do love a crown.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:10):
Oh my God, guys.
Was that not insane?
I am dying to know what youthink, so text the podcast now
by hitting the link in your shownotes.
And I don't wanna say too muchbecause remember, next week I
follow up with Lauren to see howshe's doing four months later.
So put a reminder in yourcalendar for next Thursday at
6:00 AM EST, because you aregoing to want to be the first to
(35:31):
hear this.
Thanks again to Imagine Learningfor letting us share this audio.
Go check them out and thethree-part Heart Work series on
math anxiety.
Link in the show notes.
And guys, thank you for beinghere.
Thank you for listening, andthank you for believing that
everyone can build a happier,healthier relationship with math
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