Before & After Pt. 2: How Math Therapy changed Lauren Keeling's life (4 months later)

Episode Transcript
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Lauren (00:03):
I have to shake off this identity.
So I just can no longer holdonto I'm not a math person and
smile when I say it, becausethat does a disservice to me as
a smart human woman of the worldwho is capable of a thousand
things.
I had the realization that whenI say I'm not a math person, I'm
taking away from who I am.
I needed to cement that in who Iwas in order to make this

(00:24):
journey authentic, for me as aperson who's grappling through
better understanding who I am,but two, to your very point,
better understanding about howwe talk to kids about math,

Vanessa Vakharia (00:36):
Okay, guys.
Hi, welcome to another episodeof Math Therapy, and to part two
of a very special two-partseries where you actually get to
go along for the ride as I helpsomeone with a lifelong fear of
math transform their entireidentity through math therapy.
And yeah, I'm aware of howoutrageously egotistical that
sounds, and that I'm prone toexaggerating, but, like, you'll

(00:59):
just have to trust me this time.
So last week we shared my liveone-on-one math therapy session
with Lauren Keeling, which wasoriginally recorded as part of
Heart Work's Math Anxietypodcast series by Imagine
Learning, and you got toexperience math therapy in
action.
If you missed it, we'll link tothe show notes, no worries.
Today's episode is basicallylike a Love Island reunion.

(01:22):
You know when the cast comesback months after the season
wraps to spill the tea on what'shappened since the show aired?
Well, that's what's happeningtoday, because Lauren joins the
podcast four months later toshare what changed for her since
she flew across the continent tovisit me in Toronto for her
first ever math therapy session.
I cannot wait for you to hearhow Lauren went from someone who

(01:43):
literally believed to her corethat she was not a math person,
to someone who now, as of therecording of this episode, has
131-day math streak on Duolingo.
This is not just about goingfrom point A to point B.
It's about everything thathappened in between, and all of
the actions that moved the dialfor Lauren, so that you can
discover the high-impact shiftsthat can help you, your

(02:06):
students, and your math-hatingbestie repair that toxic
relationship with math.
And Lauren uncovers somethingthat neither of us ever
expected, that there may havebeen a part of her that actually
didn't want to let go of hermath-hating identity, because it
was actually serving a purpose.
We get into all of this and somuch more, and I cannot wait for
you to hear it, and I knowyou're thinking of that person

(02:27):
you need to send this to, sotake a second to pause and do
that right now, and then let'sget into it.
Oh my God.
Okay.
Lauren, welcome to the podcast.
I'm so excited you're here

Lauren (02:39):
Oh, I am delighted to be here.
I've been counting down theminutes to my moment again with
you

this whole tale begins because Lauren flew
to get math therapy from me inperson as part of The Heart Work
podcast series, which was a deepdive on math anxiety.
She literally flew across thecountry to come to my place to
get math therapy in person.
So we had the most amazing time,and now we are going to do a, a,

(03:07):
what is this?
A pr- an epilogue?
A after the fact?
A denouement?
Like, what is this called?

Lauren (03:13):
A follow-up?

Right, yep, yep, that's what it's called, a
follow-up.
We're gonna do a follow-up.
Can you tell us who Lauren was,like, pre-math therapy?
Like, if I had asked you then,"Who are you in relation to
math?" how would you haveanswered?

Lauren (03:27):
I'd wear a T-shirt that says,"Not a math person." Truly,
that is the best way to describeme.
I wrapped myself into, snuggledinto that identity so deeply and
thoroughly and just lived it,right?
Like, I was not a math person,so much so that, um, on my first

(03:48):
job interview for my firstteaching job, I said,"Not a math
person." When I was thinkingabout the career I wanted when I
went into undergrad, the veryfirst thing was, the one that
has the least amount of mathclasses that I have to take?"
So, I think just to, you know,put that in a really succinct
moment, it's just I was not amath person, and I

Hmm

Lauren (04:08):
Who I was was not math.
And even more definitively, Iwas never going to be a math
person or never going to be mathin any capacity.

Oh my God, that was perfect.
The T- I think the T-shirtvisual is, it gives me a vision
of, like, everyone on socialmedia right now that is, like,
liking all of the memes andreposting all of the reels that
are like,"Not a math person.
Don't talk to me about math."Like,"I've moved on," that kind
of thing.
So it's kind of nice to haveyou, a real person, on the
screen.
Not that we're all the same, butsomebody who's like,"Yeah,

(04:40):
that's how I would havedescribed myself." I remember
during our interview togetherBecause, I mean, let's back up a
bit.
You were flown across thecountry to come do Math Therapy
in person, right?
You were the, like, the, the,the main character of this.
How did you feel as, like, thisbeing your journey, being like,
"I'm about to go investigatemath anxiety, and as a part of

(05:01):
that, I have to dig into my ownmath anxiety"?
What was the vibe around that?

Lauren (05:05):
So in the big picture, I thought this is gonna be a great
concept to explore becausehaving, being a math person, I'm
not a math person, is acommunity.
And, and search for each otherout in the world.
As we're moving and talking andthinking and asking questions,
we're like honing in on who ourother not-math people are.
So I really thought theconversation was critical, and,

(05:26):
and it felt important to becurious about how everyone else
navigated.
I say that in that weird waybecause the last thing I wanted
to do was navigate my ownfeelings about math I held
firmly to who I was, what I was,what I believed about math, what
I believed about my own abilityabout math, what that
relationship was in my everydaylife.

(05:47):
And when my team pitched thatthey wanted me, wanted me to
center in on this conversationand sort of, um, explore what it
really was through the lens ofLauren Keeling, and then
ultimately little Lauren as achild, it just made me really,
uncomfortable.
Now, I would do anything for myteam because I trust their

(06:09):
vision implicitly.
We've been through this work alot together, and, um, they're
smart, and I love that they'resmart.
But personally, when I grappledwith did I actually wanna peel
back the layers of what wasultimately gonna be this onion
of my math feelings, just didn'tknow that I actually wanted to.
So when we booked the tickets,when my team found the hotel,

(06:31):
when we started thinking aboutwhat we were gonna eat while we
were there, I still really feltskeptical about any real or
lasting change coming out of thework.
And not because I, I doubtedanything that The Math Guru was
or say or help me think through.
I, I knew a lot about you andlearned a lot about you and
believed in, in everything thatyou talked about.

(06:52):
just didn't believe that had thecapacity to any of those changes
and then ultimately make themreal.

Hmm.
I also wonder, I remember duringour time together, you said
something.
I mean, I love what you justsaid here because this ties in.
You had said something duringour, like, Math Therapy session
a few months ago where you werelike, yes, it's partially that
you don't know if you're able tochange, but wasn't there a bit
of a resistance to changing?
And part of that reason being, Ilove how you just put it, being

(07:24):
not a math person is acommunity, it's an identity, and
if all of a sudden you weregonna change that, what happens
to your community?
Cause it's funny, you're like,"Ididn't know that I didn't think
I believed I could change." Ispart of it that you didn't know
that you wanted to change?

Lauren (07:37):
I remember this really specific moment where we're just
toward the end of our 27-hourconversation, um, 27-hour math
therapy session, and we'resnuggled into our seats and you
said something about,"So doyou-- you've kind of-- your
identity has changed a littlebit, right?" And I had just all
that great work that we had donetogether, all of that

(07:57):
conversation, I had thisinternal moment of panic where I
think I even said out loud,"Doesthat mean that I'm a math
person?"

Yeah, like not in a good way.
Like, you didn't say it in anexcited way.

Lauren (08:08):
I was not thrilled about this revelation and this
potential shift in LaurenKeeling, the human being of the
world.
Um, so even in

But tell us why.
Yeah

Lauren (08:20):
I-- it's who I am.

Yeah

Lauren (08:23):
maybe even as we started this podcast, words are my
business.
Words are what I know.
Words are what I do.
I, write, I talk, I think outloud, I ask questions, I
synthesize, I say things.
don't do numbers.
And how does that change?
that change what I'm good at?
Does that change what I knowbest?
Instead of, get to this I'msure, time with you and the

(08:47):
subsequent conversations afterwith so many other people, it
doesn't necessarily change thecomposition of who I am.
It just expands my world.
It

Hmm.

Lauren (09:00):
of even bigger and even larger.
So I was not there in thatmoment of panic where I said,
"Does that mean I'm a mathperson?" I just hadn't arrived
at that space yet.
But it was a pivotal momentthat, that kind of opened up
this road for me or opened upthis pathway that I didn't ever
really consider as something Icould step into or I could

(09:23):
engage in.
I, I mean, I'm speaking at NCTM,NCTE in a couple of weeks, which
I would never, ever have appliedto.
yes, absolutely give me theteachers of English.
Love it.
We're together always andforever.
Anything with the M at the endof it, I always tell my team
it's just not my space.

(09:43):
I won't connect.
This won't work for me.
Yeah.

I'm so proud of you! Okay, and for those of
you listening, so NCTE isNational Council of Teachers of
English, NCTM is NationalCouncil of Teachers of Math, and
they do, they've started doingthis joint conference, and I
actually feel like you're, like,the reason.
Like, I feel like this is, youshould, like, be keynoting this
conference.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, this is the whole point'cause, yeah, because the whole
point is to show that the twosubjects are not divided.

(10:08):
But hold on, we're getting aheadof ourselves.
Let's back up for a sec.
Because you're making me think abunch of things.
Like, I'm like, oh, it's sointeresting that you were like,
"I don't want my identity tochange," right?
That you had this resistance.
And it's making me think, youknow, people have different
reactions, but I think whatwe've started noticing is we
want to be, we want everyone tofeel like a math person.
We wanna tell everyone they're amath person.

(10:30):
When someone says they're not amath person, we wanna jump in
and be like,"But let me l- listyou all the reasons why you
are." And actually, I havenoticed, and I know a lot of
people have noticed, the resultis not what we want, right?
It's like mo- we want people tohave this aha moment and be
like,"Oh my God, amazing," butthat doesn't happen.
I think part of the reason isthey don't believe us, right?

(10:50):
They've had no experience toprove otherwise.
But you're touching on somethingreally important that I don't
think we're considering, whichis a lot of folks are like,"I
don't want my identity tochange," because it's not just
about the math.
Like, not being a math person isabout other things.
I wonder if we can dig a bitdeeper.
Like, you said, not being a mathpers- because I, I, because I
think this helps us understandour students, our friends, our

(11:12):
counterparts that say they'renot math people, and why they
hang on so much to it.
Part of it is they reallybelieve that.
Part of it is that they've hadnegative math experiences.
But let's dig a little more intothis idea of why were you upset
that you might be a math person?
Like, what would that mean?
Would it, would it mean someother things about you?
Would it take away from what youare good at?
Like, what were...

(11:32):
I know you can't speak on behalfof everyone, but I'm curious,
like, what was going throughyour mind?

Lauren (11:37):
So for me, being a words person means I'm good at words,
and that communicates to theworld that this is something
that I have capacity to beskilled at, that this is
something that I can produce foryou, and make meaning of.
To then adopt,"I'm a mathperson," or, or,"I math," right?
Or,"I can be a mather," as ourdear friend Deborah says.

(12:01):
There is a level of expertisethat comes with a statement like
that, that I don't feel like Iown or that Or that I have.
So by saying,"I'm a mather," I'mkind of telling the world that
I'm here for math and can do itconfidently and side by side,
and, you yeah all of thesethings with math.

(12:22):
And I think that's a reallycritical identity change for me
because I, as most people, Ihope do, please don't let me be
alone in the world in this, Ionly really like to dive deep
into things that I know that Ihave an understanding of.
That isn't to say that I don'tlike to be curious about
everything.
I wanna know all the thingsabout all the things that
everybody loves and wants to do.
But when it comes to me, um,sharing my understanding,

(12:45):
sharing my thinking, sharing howI conceptualize things, I want
it to be a space where I know Ihave some confidence and some,
mastery.
And I still don't necessarilybelieve that I have the mastery
of math as a concept to be ableto claim being a"mather" I have
attached expertise to it in away that's actually probably

(13:06):
really unfair to that beautifulstatement

Well, I'm sure, I, I think there's,
there's so much going on heretoo, because I think that's why
Deborah Peart came up with theterm Mather because we're like,
well, when we say mathematician,it implies profession.
It, it implies a certain degreeof knowing.
At least when we say Mather, theidea is math is something we do,
right?
It doesn't matter what math, itdoesn't matter how advanced the

(13:30):
math is, it doesn't matter,like, it just like we
acknowledge that like ma- youknow, math is a thing we do.
Just like being a reader, itdoesn't mean like you have to
read Shakespeare or you teachShakespeare, it's just like you
read, right?
That can mean so many differentthings.
So I mean, all, all of that,there is so much to unpack
there.
I'm very curious now, sittinghere in front of me today,

(13:51):
because we actually haven'ttalked about this, like I
actually really don't know, I'mcurious how you feel now.
So we did a little snapshot ofwho you were when you walked
into our first Math Therapysession.
Do we feel the same now?
Has it changed at all?
Like, tell me, tell me what hashappened in the past four months

Lauren (14:08):
I have loosened the reins, given our, just given our
conversation, I have loosenedthe reins on adding proficiency
to a statement like,"I'm amather." And it's for the very
reason that you just explained.
Having spent time withwonderful, thoughtful,
math-forward friends like youand like Deborah, and listening
to

Math forward?
I love math forward.
Okay, cool

Lauren (14:33):
So listening to Deborah explain what she means when she
says the word mather, I'm amather, there's a lot of release
in that for me, because matherdoesn't suggest proficiency or
expertise or career or any ofthe things that we would layer
onto it as adults, but also aschildren when we tell them,"Hey,
you're really good at math", or,"You're really good at reading."

(14:54):
we're putting a lot of pressureon a kid just by trying to
celebrate them.
We're celebrating something thatthey're excelling at but by the
same time, we're putting a lotof pressure on them to then be
proficient or to then showmastery, or then to continue to
get better at math and show it,to continue to get better at
reading and show it.
So Deborah's language has reallyallowed me to release some of

(15:15):
that pressure from myself thatI, I can be a mather, and I can
exist in this world as someonewho is not terrified when the
check comes.
Or my best example of just theleap from where I was even six
months ago, have moved into thisnew sweet house in Pennsylvania,
and my husband and I have beenslowly trying to unpack and hang

(15:36):
things on the wall like you doand make it our own home.
And yesterday we were hanging ahuge portrait, a huge map of
Texas on, um, the wall in ourkitchen, which probably also
just raises a bunch of questionsabout why is a huge map of Texas
in your kitchen.
But at any rate, it's up on thewall.
We're getting ready to hang itup on the wall.
He whips out the measuring tape,which would have just absolutely

(15:58):
struck fear in my heart monthsago, and he's trying to find
center for this piece and on thewall, and he shouts out, not
shouts out, he says,"Okay, sothis is something and three
quarters, and this one issomething and a quarter.
Um, we've gotta figure this partout." And I was like,"Wait, I
can do it.
I got it.
I can answer this question.

What?

Lauren (16:21):
Yeah.

With fractions?

Lauren (16:24):
with fractions, which that's

What?

Lauren (16:28):
as a teacher.
Fractions

Oh my...
Okay

Lauren (16:31):
says,"Fractions are okay.
can think through this.
I can do it." And I did it.
Did I have him double check myanswer?
Would I have told him that wewere just gonna go
straightforward with what Idecided?
Yes and no.

But that's good practice.
That's good practice,

Lauren (16:47):
yeah and it coming up in the real world, right?
Like, so I think we talked alittle bit about things I was
more comfortable with sneakymath than I was, than I was with
math math.

Okay, define that, f- define that for us
though

Lauren (16:59):
Math math is when you know you're doing math.
It's showing up, and you'reseeing it, and you've gotta make
it happen.
Sneaky math is when I'm planningmy garden and I'm using
non-standard measurement, andthe distance from one tomato
plant to the other is from mypinky to my thumb.
So I got that kind of math.
That is no problem for me atall.
But math math always is terrify-or not, not always is, always

(17:20):
was terrifying to me.
Um, yesterday was a real momentwhen we were using that
measuring tape and putting thatthing on the wall.
It was just really a moment forme to see the, the distance, see
how far I'd come.
We are hanging this thing on thewall, and I just didn't even
think twice about offering tosolve the problem in front of

(17:43):
us, knowing that it was actualfractions.
And I wish we could put some,like, scary music in the
background,

will.
David, I'll do that.

Lauren (17:51):
feel, feel about them.
Um, and I mean, I still don't,like, seek out opportunities to
do fractions, but when this onepresented itself, I was hand in
the air, raised high, ready todo it.

Okay, so hold, so I have a whole bunch of
questions here because you'relisting one moment, but it has
been four months since I've seenyou.
I wanna back up and say a couplethings here.
First, what happened during ourMath Therapy session is we had a
great time, so much happened,fine, but I only gave Lauren one
piece of let's call it homework.
And that piece of homework was Itold her to download the

(18:26):
Duolingo app, which again,Duolingo should be sponsoring us
the amount I talk about them.
And I was like,"I just want youto use this app.
It is two minutes a day.
Duolingo recently added math asa language.
Lauren loves languages." I waslike,"I just want you to try it.
It's literally two minutes a dayfor this thing.
I want you to try it for a weekand tell me what happens." Now,
because Lauren is the otherexpert here, and I literally got

(18:48):
a email from her today beforeour interview saying,"I'm on day
131 of Duolingo", and I quote,she said,"It might rank as top
five in my greatestaccomplishments in life." So
before we get into why she wasall of a sudden so comfortable
answering this question aboutfractions, I'd like you to tell
us about this Duolingo journey.

(19:08):
First of all, when I assigned itto you for homework, were you
re- were you like,"F you, Idon't want it"?
Like, what was the vibe?
What happens inside?
'Cause I only wanted you to doit for a week, and here you are
on day 131.
I wanna know what role that hasplayed in whatever's going on
right now in your math rehab.

Lauren (19:25):
So when we were, uh, doing this piece of it, my math
rehab, that's so perfect.

I'm into it.
I'm into it.
Okay, yep

Lauren (19:34):
But when we were sitting on the couch and you introduced
me to Duolingo Math as alanguage, and you're talking me
through it, and I'm getting allof those great dings and beeps
and, you know, super noises'cause I'm so smart at math,
basic addition, um, it was adelight, and that was really
encouraging.
But I also know me well enoughto know that I'm just not great
at, at committing to doing amath thing for a long time.

(19:57):
Like, I'll jump into it and doit.
But what I came to find, decidedI was gonna commit to it for, I
think we agreed seven days,right?
Like a full

Yeah

Lauren (20:07):
it every day for a week, see how it feels, go on about
your life as you see fit postthat.
So I committed to the sevendays.
I promised you I would do it.
And so I did my seven days, butI had found some great success
during those seven days in justkind of feeling good when I
finished a lesson.
Whether I got them all right,whether I didn't, just the sense

(20:27):
of accomplishment of here I amdoing a thing that is hard for
me, that I don't like to do,that actually only takes about
like 30 seconds of my day.
That's not true, but you know,just a couple of minutes of my
day in the

Yeah, yeah, yeah

Lauren (20:39):
and kind of get that dopamine hit, that feel of like,
"Hey, I'm kind of smartsometimes when I do this thing."
After the seventh day, Ithought, okay, it pops up and
says,"Do you want to extendyour...
Set a new goal?" And I thought,"Sure, I'll set a goal for 50
days.
I can do 50 days of this becausethat's probably not all the way
up to fractions.
It's low level, basic levelmath, and

What math were you doing?
What was happening on that app?

Lauren (21:05):
just beginner math, addition, subtraction,

Okay

Lauren (21:09):
multiplication, division.
Those were just the basic levelsof,

Like operations.

Lauren (21:15):
Yeah,

Okay

Lauren (21:16):
stuff that had just been drilled into me that I had some
general familiarity with.
So I just kept going, and then Igot to 50 days, and 50 days was
like,"Do you want to set a newgoal?" And I said,"Yes, I want
to set a new goal for 150 days."

Okay, wait, hold on.
So, so I have a question.
You, you so casually just said,you know,"In the first seven
days I was doing it, and even ifI would get some wrong, I just
felt good about doing this thingthat was hard for me." I would
like to pause on that, becausethat is a very prolific
statement.
We have been taught as educatorscurrently today, that if we are
giving students, um, anopportunity to be wrong, and

(21:52):
they are wrong, that they aregoing to feel bad and not want
to try again, right?
Like, we are really being toldas educators, we have to We're,
we're not being told thisspecifically, but there's kind
of a vibe out there that, like,we want students to feel right.
And I would really like tounpack this little moment we're
having here where you wereactually okay with being wrong

(22:13):
because you were accomplishingsomething else.
Now, what was that somethingelse you were accomplishing?
The feeling that you wereovercoming an obstacle, that you
were doing something in spiteLike, what was it?
Can you try to,

Lauren (22:25):
was just the commitment that I was going to just keep
trying to dig a little bitdeeper.
So I, I, I walked away from ourtime together, just really
thinking I have to shake offthis identity.
So I just can no longer holdonto I'm not a math person and
smile when I say it, becausethat line does a disservice to

(22:48):
me as a smart human woman of theworld who is capable of a
thousand things.
I had the realization that whenI say I'm not a math person, I'm
taking away from who I am.
It wasn't adding to me.
It wasn't an addition or a plussign into my, my Lauren-ness.
Hear those math words?

Ah, now she's making math jokes.
Oh my God.
Okay, yeah.

Lauren (23:11):
was subtracting from what I bring to the table, which
is a lot.
two, I needed to prove to myselfthat this just wasn't a
beautiful experience withsomeone who was amazing, that we
spent a day together and Iwalked away feeling really good
about the possibility of Lettinggo of the fear of being bad at

(23:33):
math.
So I needed to cement that inwho I was in order to make this
journey for our podcastauthentic, one, but two, also to
make it authentic for me as aperson who's grappling through
better understanding who I am,but two, to your very point,
better understanding about howwe talk to kids about all

Wow.
Yeah

Lauren (23:52):
talk to kids about math.
And then even further, how wetalk to teachers about teaching
math, how we talk to teachersabout their own feelings about
math.

I want everyone listening to think
about what Lauren said here.
The sense of accomplishment,what kept her going despite the
fact that she was getting thewrong answer mathematically in a
subject, math, that she'salready anxious about getting
the wrong answer in, okay?
So she kept going despite that.
She wasn't always getting itwrong.
You were getting some wins,right?

(24:21):
So you were like, okay.
But what kept you going is thegoal, the measure of success was
not getting the right answer.
The measure of success had beendefined by both of us as,"I am
going to do this thing thatfeels hard, and I'm simply going
to witness how I feel and keepgoing." Because that was the
measure of success, every daythat you did Duolingo, you could

(24:45):
check that box regardless of theanswer you got on the math that
you were doing.

Lauren (24:50):
That's exactly right.
And I think, too, to, to sortof, um, connect to that, the
more I did it in this low stakesenvironment, you don't care if
I'm getting these math answersright.
I actually wasn't, uh, deeplyaffected by whether or not I got
it right.
It was the fact that I was doingit in this low stakes

(25:11):
environment where I kept havingthese at-bats and practices with
math and these moments offeeling really good about
getting an answer right orpersevering through something
that I actually didn't want todo.
So we may in a moment get to thespot where I tell you that we
got to the fractions section,and it was a struggle for me
mentally, emotionally, every dayto pick this thing up and to do

(25:34):
that fractions lesson every daybecause it was hard for me.
And those were the moments thatI really transferred back to the
feelings of inability and thefeelings of,"I'm just not good
at this.
Why am I...
Is this really a goal that Ineed to continue on?
I'm at a hundred and some odddays.
Can I just quit at this point?"So there was some real, like,
back and forth and some tensionjust internally for me to dig

(25:58):
down into why I'm doing this.
Why am I sticking with Duolingothe way that I am?
Why does it matter to me that Icontinue going?
But it's because I needed tocontinue to practice on the
thing that was hard.
I needed to continue to get itwrong, and I needed most of all
to get it right from time totime, a lot of times, in order
to have all of the feelings,because that's how you learn.

(26:19):
You gotta have all of thefeelings.

You have to have all of the feelings.
I love that you have to have allof the feelings.
You're almost like exercising.
Like it's that window oftolerance, right?
Being like,"Okay, I can go frombeing super stressed out,
feeling anxious.
I can then move through thatwindow to the other side." Like
it's not stagnant.
There is movement.

(26:41):
I'm c- did you, did you feellike you learned?
Like do you feel like you knowmore about fractions now or do
you feel like you just really

Lauren (26:50):
Yes, and I, my, my proof point is hanging that crazy
picture on the

Yeah

Lauren (26:56):
in our kitchen because I had just finished up that
fractions block of learning,goodness, and have moved to
rounding, which feels like abreeze and a dream compared to
fractions.
But I had just f- finished upthat, that, that fraction
section and, like, struggledthrough improper fractions and
comparing fractions andfinishing out the fraction.

(27:19):
But all of that hard stuff, andmy scores were horrible.
I don't know if Du- Duolingotracks what your score
progression is, but my scoreswere terrible through that
fraction section.
But they got a little bit betterevery time, and I was able to
take that practice and apply itto my kitchen wall confidently.

Oh my God

Lauren (27:38):
uncomfortable, or I didn't cringe, or I didn't
think,"Oh my goodness, I'm gonnago in the living room and find
something so that he can do thisfor me." I thought,"Wait, I
actually have kind of honed inand developed the skills over
the past couple of weeks withthis daily two-minute practice
that I think I can figure thisout."

This is so wild.
Like, it's so wild for so manyreasons, but I'm like, you put
into practice so much of thestuff we say.
Like, number one, doing math ina low-stakes way.
Number two, let's note thatLauren did not start with
fractions, right?
She pulled out that app, and shewas starting with stuff where
she could get some wins, right?
You could feel kinda good.
By the time the fractions thingcame around, so this just shows,

(28:17):
I think for me, also the idea ofscaffolding that we always talk
about.
Like, give your students theopportunity to get some wins.
If it's you working on your ownthing, don't start with the
thing that stresses you out.
Start with something like a rungbelow on the ladder, something
that you feel like you can get abit of a dopamine hit from, and
then move to that.
Then also, you didn't start withtrying to hang that picture,

(28:37):
right?
Like, again, you were doinglow-stakes math every day, these
little things, then a real-lifesituation came up, and I'm sure
your husband, I'm not sure, butI'm guessing he wasn't like,
"Lauren, this is a test of whatyou've been prac-" Right?
Did he say those things?

Lauren (28:51):
He didn't.
He

No.

Lauren (28:53):
that was great."

Right?
And, like, he probably wasn'tlike,"Why don't you do it?
You've been practicing," right?
Like, it's something, a- again,this was low stakes in a way.
It was a low-stakes application.
It was a word problem, whichnormally would be horrifying, a
word problem that was alow-stakes word problem.
It wasn't written out in a bookfor you to do, there's so many
learning and teachable momentsin your experience.

(29:16):
I imagine up to this point inyour journey every time you go
to schools and you're dealingwith teachers, does it come up
that educators do not like math?
Are you hearing this kind oflanguage?

Lauren (29:29):
Probably less so in the work I do today than it did when
I was actually in publiceducation.
So a lot of the conversations Ihad with new teachers, with
veteran teachers, um, we likemath the way we like math, which
is the way we learned it when wewere young.
Whether we understood it when wewere young or not, we like it
that way'cause we know it best.
So when we were thinking aboutexpanding how we invite children

(29:49):
to the table of math learning,was a really hard conversation
'cause lots of people just don'tactually like math or are afraid
of having to teach higher-levelconcepts.
And those were really importantconversations that I wish I
could travel back in time andhave

Right

Lauren (30:06):
all of this understanding now.
And honestly, the thing that Idid as a leader then was build
community with my not-mathpeople, right?
Like,"You're not a math person.
I got it.
We're gonna sit here togetherand commiserate on that for a
few minutes, and then we gottafigure out a pathway forward.
Like, we can keep hating math,but we gotta still teach it to
these kids and make them loveit." But that's not the way,

(30:26):
right?

What would you do differently?
'Cause I think there are somany...
One of the questions I get askedmost from educators is,"How do I
deal with the other teachers ormy colleagues or my leaders or
admin or, like, this person orthat person who, like, talks
shit about math all the time?"Like, you know what I mean?
I hear from leaders all thetime,"We have so many teachers
with their own math anxiety."I'm curious if this work has,
like, sort of, you know, changedthe way you notice math anxiety

(30:49):
in other teachers, and if you'renoticing things now you wouldn't
have before, and how you wouldrespond to it differently if
given the chance.
I'm sure you will be given thechance.

Lauren (30:58):
I would point back to something that you said to me
that was pivotal in this entireexperience, so my Duolingo
experience, what I thought ofevery time I talked to somebody,
um, after our time together aswe were writing and thinking
through scripting on thepodcast.
basically you, like, lifted theshame away from individual
strategy I felt like as a youngperson and even a person today,

(31:20):
up to that point and still sortof grappling with it now, that
if I had to use my fingers, Iwas not good at math.
If I had to draw it out, I wasnot good at math.
If I had to do some kind ofnon-standard way of getting to
the answer, just'cause I got theanswer right didn't mean that I
did it with mastery or I wasgood at math.
I did it the wrong way to getthe right answer.
And I think one of the pivotalmoments for me was when you

(31:42):
said,"But you got the rightanswer."

Right.
Yeah

Lauren (31:45):
I did.
Okay, let's move on.
strategies are important, butstrategies are an opportunity
for someone to find out whatworks for them and how their
sweet brain bridges piecetogether information, where we
build those synapses, where wemake those connections, and what
we're able to push forward inwith our learning.
So I think one of the big, um,mysteries to reveal or shames to

(32:09):
wipe away for all of the people,particularly teachers who
struggle with teaching math orstruggle with math anxiety,
would be stop shaming yourselffor your strategy and start
seeking opportunities with yourstudents to build their own
individual strategies.
We can not test every student tomastery on every strategy
because that is not real.

I'm really glad you brought this up because
I feel like when somebody willsay to me, and students and
teachers will say this, they'llbe like,"Yeah, I got the right
answer, but I was doing likethis thing," or,"I had to do
this to figure it out." I'malways like,"That is, isn't that
amazing?
Like you were self-resourced.
Like you ma- you didn't know howto do something, and then you
figured out how to do it.
What is a more powerful skillthan that?"

Lauren (32:49):
To top that off, it takes me back to a moment where
I, I remember a teacher one timesweetly said,"But you're doing
so much hard work to get to theanswer when there's a lot easier
way." And what that said to mewas my way was too much.
I needed to figure out how tomake the shorter way work.
And I understand what thatteacher was saying.
It's, it's smart, right?

(33:09):
Like, why are you exhaustingyourself to get to this answer
when there's this thing overhere that is easier?
That thing did not make sense tome.
I could not conceptualize howall of that went together.
So all of this work was notnecessarily the hard work for
me.
I wasn't doing hard-- all ofthis extra hard work.
I was doing the work that let meget to a place where I
understood what I was, what Iwas answering, how I was

(33:31):
answering, how I was getting theanswer.
So I think that there's just alot of value in, in continuing
to lift up and having thoseconversations.
And again, as an educationalsociety, thinking deeply about
teach and assess standards, um,of practice, right?
Algorithms and the way thatstudents answer questions and
the way that students get to theanswer.

okay, it- while you're talking, I have to
tell you where my mind is going.
I'm thinking about gettingorganized.
I know I talk about this on thepodcast all the time.
Obviously, I have a problem.
I am in therapy, guys.
I don't know what to say.
But I, uh, one of my main panicsis that I'm not doing things the
most efficient way.
Like, I'll be like,"Okay," like,I'm or- I guess I'm organized

(34:14):
and I have a system, but I knowthere's a better way out there,
and I feel like I'm failingconstantly because I'm like, I
bet you, like, people will belike,"Oh, why don't you just,
like, automate it?
So like, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah.
Like, AI does this thing, andthen it'll add these things to
your..." And I'm like,"I don'tknow.
I don't know how to do that."And I, you know, and I've always
felt like such a failure, andyou just gave me an epiphany of
how many people I've spoken to,who when I ask them how they

(34:36):
organize their day, their day,they'll say something like,"Oh,
pen, you know, pen and paper forme.
Like, I still need to write on aphysical planner." And none of
those people feel shame aroundit.
In fact, they're like,"Yeah,sure.
I guess I could use an app.
I guess I can automate it, butfor me, what's always work is,
worked is, like, getting my, myphysical planner and writing my
stuff on it, and I get the jobdone." So what is the problem?

(34:58):
And I wish...
I, I feel like this is, I'mgonna take this moment for
myself,'cause I've been allpanicky f- for the past year
about how disorganized I am.
David is nodding vigorously.
And I thank you.
This is a reminder to me thatjust because something isn't the
fastest, it doesn't mean it'snot the way that works for us.
And if you get the job done,what the fuck is the problem?

(35:20):
You know what I mean?
Like...
And I get, by the way, this isnot a nod to being like,"We
don't need fluency in math."That is not what I'm saying.
But,

Lauren (35:28):
do.

yes, that's not what I'm saying.
I'm saying, though, there is atime and a place for the most
efficient way, and there's atime and a place for however you
get to the answer and understandit is fine, especially in the
learning phase,

Lauren (35:42):
Yes

maybe later you'll learn something else,
right?
The, I think this goes back toall of the talk around being
like, we want students to thinkand come up with their own ways
before we teach them thealgorithm.
Like, you know what I mean?
We're not saying don't use thealgorithm.
Like, I'm certainly not sayingthat.
I'm a huge fan of manyalgorithms.
Yeah, yeah, we're not Yeah, gofor it, but also, like...
okay, so anyway, so we're notgetting into an algorithm talk.

(36:03):
I'm so sorry.
Thank you.
I just needed to steal thatmoment for myself.
Back to you.
There's something else youwanted to say.

Lauren (36:08):
It's just meaning-making, right?
So teach the algorithm, but alsoteach the way for students to
make meaning of that algorithm.
So it can't be a standalonething that I just apply and use.
I actually do have to understandits

Sure

Lauren (36:20):
how it works, right?
Like, space for all in this mathworld that we're living in.
It, it can all happen.
one of the other really pivotalpieces that I think would be
great for a district or teachersor a group of teachers or a team
that's struggling with teachingmath, we did that paper.
We just wrote down togetherthings that we think about for

(36:42):
math, right?
Or that, that represented mathor math things.
I can't even remember how youphrased

would, yes, I think we were like, yeah, we
were like,"Let's list somethings that are math," like

Lauren (36:51):
Yeah

planting a garden, doing your times ta- Is
that what you mean?

Lauren (36:54):
yes, that thing.
And what was interesting wasyou-- I went first, and I'm
like,"Addition!"'Cause I'mthinking math, math, math, But
then you really opened up theopportunity for me to think
beyond that, because I think thenext thing that you said was
maybe or trends, uh, justsomething

Yeah, it was like spotting a trend.
Yeah

Lauren (37:14):
yep, for math thinking that it really helped my brain
shift into thinking about, oh,planting a garden, making
dinner, baking something,hanging a picture, moving
furniture.
So sometimes, um, poor mathexperience as a child turns into
poor math experience as aneducator because we can't shake

(37:37):
out of poor math experience as achild.
And we forget that math is ameans to an end for most humans.
So ninety-nine percent of thestudents that come into our
classroom are not likely to goon to become mathematicians
winning awards in the world andchanging math theory.
They're students who are gonnago in and have great jobs and

(37:58):
careers, and they're gonna go tocollege, and they're gonna go in
the military, and they need toreally take these practical
concepts or these high-levelconcepts and make them practical
in their lives.
So that moment also reallyhelped me shift my thinking
around, like, why are weteaching math?
Why do we want students to beproficient with math?
Is it so they can get thehighest SAT score or the highest
ACT score?

(38:18):
Is it so that they can go takehigh-level math when they get
into college, or they can, youknow, any other math thing that
you can put in there?
Or is it because we want them tobe able to balance their
checkbook, hang a picture ontheir wall, measure the
ingredients for the cake thatthey're baking, figure out how
to mow their lawn so it's gotthose beautiful lines in it that

(38:39):
everybody else in theneighborhood has, whatever it is
that they wanna do, there are athousand applications.
An educator, as a leader, and assomeone who has conversations, I
can bring reading to life forevery person in the room because
I see its practical applicationin everything that we do.
I don't need everybody to loveclassic literature.

(39:01):
You don't have to pick up a bookevery day, but you do have to
have an understanding of howwords and sounds work together
to make sense of this life.
I did not believe that aboutmath until I spent time with you
and spent time with other peoplewho are in a similar space as
me, are thinking big thoughtslike Deborah and Peter.

(39:22):
And then I started to reallythink, like, I've missed it
here.
I have missed the boat.
I have done more damage as not amath person than I could ever
think because I stopped thinkingabout-- I never thought about,
actually, math is a means to anend.
It is

Hmm

Lauren (39:41):
means to an end.
It is not just two plus two.
It's if I have two bunnies andI've got two cats I have

You...

Lauren (39:50):
and now

I

Lauren (39:51):
out the math of how I feed them, right?
So that was a terrible example,but just there's purpose in it.
We need it to function in oureveryday lives

Well, it's so funny'cause I just finished
another interview where we weretalking about how we actu- you
know, so, so much of thediscourse has been around like,
"Math is so beautiful, it's someaningful.
Like, look at the, like, math innature.
Like, we need students tounderstand the richness and
beauty of math." Cool.
Like, I'm not saying no, butit's just like you just said
about classical literature,like, I'm sorry, I'm sure

(40:23):
Shakespeare was a great guy.
I'm actually not sure, to behonest, about any man at that
time or now or currently.
Um, but I cannot stand readingShakespeare.
I cannot stand it.
I've tried it.
It's not that I don't understandit.
I do not like it.
I do not enjoy it.
So now, that has not turned meoff reading.
I love reading.
There are books that I read.

(40:44):
Like, do you know what I mean?
And I think it might be a bitsimilar here, where it's like
there is a whole side of thebeauty of reading, right?
Beautiful literature and poetryand this and that and whatever.
And cool, that is an inroad forsome people.
Some people develop a love forreading because they fall in
love with, like, Jane Austen orwhatever.
I'm just listing, like, famouspeople that I've never read.

(41:06):
You know?
Like, fine.
But so many of us learn how toread regardless of the fact...
you know, I know lots of peoplewho know how to read.
David over here hasn't picked upa book in, like, two years.
Like, he, like, but he's, he's,he's an incredible reader and
writer.
He's not right now currentlyreading a book.
Like, you know what I mean?
My point being, there aredifferent pathways to building

(41:29):
an identity, a positive identityaround math or reading.
There are multiple pathways.
One of them might be the joy andbeauty in numbers or words.
One of them might be thepractical application and the
means to an end.
And I think we need to stopplacing one on a pedestal above
the other, right?
'Cause I think we arepedestalizing, like, this idea

(41:49):
of the richness and the beautyand the deep understanding.
It's like, that's cool, butalso, you know what else de-
deserves a spot on that ladder?
Is being able to use that thingas a tool to get other things
that you want, to live yourlife.

Lauren (42:02):
Yes.
It makes me think of somebodysmarter than me somewhere on the
internet wrote a thing sometime.
I cannot credit this person.
If you're out there, this haslived in my brain since the
moment I read it.
But

W-what?

Lauren (42:15):
That grizzly bear jaws and butterfly wings are both
methods of survival in thisworld.
There's more than one way tothrive

W- pause.
What?
Hold on, I need to think aboutit.
I need to think about it.

Lauren (42:27):
We just think that a grizzly bear

this

Lauren (42:29):
going to survive.
Think about it.
Like, its jaws are powerful.
It's keeping itself safe.
It is strong, and it's mighty,and it's out there mastering
this world.
But you know who else ismastering this world?
A butterfly, because itsbeautiful, delicate, little
light baby wings can take it upreally high away from whatever
it is on the ground that's gonnaeat it.
They're both thriving.

(42:49):
They're just built for differentthings

I could talk to you forever and literally
ever.
I feel like we honestly just gotstarted, I just think this is so
cool that you're sharing yourjourney with us, and you're
still on it, and I kinda wannatalk about that a bit.
Like, here we are, four monthslater, you literally could give
a keynote about math.
Like, you, you have beenshouting out sneaky math.
You've been shouting out math,math.

(43:13):
You've been talking aboutdifferent strategies.
Like, it's so incredible towatch this transformation, and
I'm so curious, like, what isnext and how this has shaped how
you think about not just math,but your capability for doing
hard things.
Like, do you have a next projectyou wanna work on?
What are you thinking about nexton your math journey?
Are you finished?

(43:34):
Like, what Are you now anadvocate for math rehab?
Are you starting a math rehabclinic?
What is happening?
Like, tell me what you'rethinking.

Lauren (43:42):
Yes to everything.

I mean, a math rehab clinic and a Christmas
tree farm?
Sign me up

Lauren (43:49):
not only would you be happy, but you would be
overcoming as well, and I justthink that those are two...
It's a movie all wrapped up intoitself.
It's so beautiful.
I- It's, like, uplifting.
Um, so one of my big goalsactually that I have written
down, which is one of my methodsfor organizing who I am and how
I'm going to tackle this lifethat I'm living, um, which as I

(44:11):
get older is more like thumbsupping this life that I'm living
because I'm trying to do itgently.
But I, I am going to do a fullyear of this Duolingo math
practice.

What?

Lauren (44:22):
That is my personal goal.
My goal is to make it to the daythat I met you.
So I want full circle Vanessamath practice every day on
Duolingo this full year, so upto, um, up to the date that,
that I started.

We're gonna find the da-

Lauren (44:38):
is a goal for

how...
Okay, hold on.
How are we getting Duolingoinvolved?
Like, do we have an idea?
They need to be in on this.
They need to be in on this.
Like, people could be followingyour journey.
Okay, I am going to reach out tothem.
I'm gonna reach out to them

Lauren (44:51):
you

after this interview.
I'm reaching out to them thisweek.
Okay, guys, I'm saying this outloud.
Okay, sorry, Lauren, back toyou, but, like, this is just too
much.
This is so exciting.
Okay, go on

Lauren (45:00):
It's just been a really pivotal, so many I know I keep
saying things are pivotal, buthonestly, this is just a really
big shift for me as a humanbeing because I have held so
tightly to that identity of justbeing someone who doesn't care,
honestly, about math.
Um, I've lived my 40-some oddyears and, like, it's cool.
I don't need, I don't need tochange this.
And I don't know necessarilythat I needed to shift this

(45:23):
perspective, but it has been Ican't imagine, I can't imagine
having not done this over thepast couple of months and it's
really opened up how I thinkabout how we do what we do as
educators and curriculumcreators and people who talk
about learning in this world.

Tell me more about that, that statement.
Like, how has it shifted how youthink about educators and what
we do?

Lauren (45:46):
Two things are happening in my life right now.
I'm at the, on the tail end ofwriting and finishing my
dissertation work, which is allabout how teachers experience
collaborative leadership duringcurriculum change.
So how important is it that asstakeholders in an educational
community, that we all come tothe table and arrive at this
decision together and thenimplement forward?

(46:07):
So that has lifted up a lot oflearning for me around just the
value, of the foundationalelement of trust when we're in
the room together And I think asI continue to have conversations
with people and be curious abouttheir experiences as leaders and
learners and teachers in math,that sometimes, it points back

(46:28):
to this lack of trust.
So whether it is as a studenttrusting myself to persevere in
the face of this hard thing andkeep trying and not quit, I
don't trust myself to do that.
Do I trust this teacher tohandle me gently when I do get
it wrong or I don't understandand ask the question?
I don't think I trust that as astudent.
As an educator, do I trust thiscurriculum company to come in

(46:52):
and show me a method that'sactually going to be effective
for most of my students that Ican actually do and deploy?
I maybe don't trust that'causeI've had a lot of experiences
otherwise in the ba- in the, in,in the rest of my life.
As an educator, do I trust myleadership team to support me in
failing forward on rolling outand teaching this thing that's
brand new and uncomfortable?

(47:12):
So as an administrator, do Itrust that my school board,
state government, federalgovernment isn't gonna change
the goal?
Like, isn't gonna shift the raceend midway through the process.
So there's an erosion of trustall the way down from the top to
the bottom of the student level,and as a person who is wrapped

(47:32):
up in this curriculum world andthen also wrapped up in this
world with teachers and leadersand students, my wonder is: How
do we build that?
How do we create classroomswhere students trust themselves
and their teachers to exist inthis environment that lets me
grow as a learner still mess itup a whole bunch?

(47:52):
How do we create systems ofeducators and districts and
teachers where I'm actuallyreally uncomfortable teaching
this thing, but I'm surroundedby people and by a system of
curriculum that's gonna supportme in learning and doing?
And also giving people what yougave me, which is the removal of
shame, not getting it, beingwrong, only getting it right

(48:16):
sometimes, needing multipleat-bats

I think this really does all connect because
the idea of trust, the wayyou've talked about how it's
tiered at all levels, I thinkreally it does tie in in a way
that I think is reallyimportant, and it's really
subtle, but it's reallypoignant, right?
So I think part of it is we talkabout blind faith a lot, and
it's a bit unfair, right?
We expect us to all have blindfaith.

(48:42):
The truth is, though, faith andtrust comes from evidence,
right?
It comes from evidence that,that there is a reason to trust.
We don't just blindly trustpeople.
I'm sorry, but we don't, right?
Like, and this is why we talkabout having trust issues.
Somebody who's been burnedbefore is going to be more
reticent to trust somebodymoving forward.
So I think the experience thatyou've kind of given yourself

(49:04):
and walked yourself through, Ithink what's happening is, and
you can tell me if I'm wrong,you are building trust in
yourself, right?
Trust in yourself to show upevery day, trust in yourself
that you can grow and change.
You're actually witnessing that.
We just saw that in the evidenceof the hanging picture story.
Something happened, and you werelike,"Oh, it does actually
matter." Same with students,right?

(49:25):
When we just tell them to trust,"Oh, you've had years and years
of bad math experiences.
Don't worry.
This is gonna be different, andyou, and you'll be able to
learn," they've been burnedbefore.
So we have to give them theseexperiences.
The removal of shame, yes.
Experiences like Duolingo orlow-stakes math where they can
win for once, yes.
And that is how the trust thathas eroded will begin to be

(49:48):
rebuilt, and this has to happenat every single tier.
This has to happen with leadersand teachers.
Give those teachers that We'retalking about math, so I'm gonna
stick with math, but y- leaders,you have a bunch of teachers
that you are leading who havemath trauma, who have anxiety
around math, who are now beingasked to go into the math
classroom and be evaluatedthrough test scores on their
ability to teach.
What are you gonna do?

(50:09):
How are you gonna get them tobuild the trust in themselves to
take on the new curriculum thatyou would like them to take?
They don't have tru- They don'tThat's why they're doing it the
old way.
They don't believe that they canchange'cause it hasn't been
proven to them, and they don'ttrust that this curriculum's
gonna be any different.
So what are you, what are yougoing to do, and what math
experiences are you going togive them that How are you gonna
remove the shame around themtrying something new?

(50:30):
I, like, I do think this allreally ties.
Like, I know we've gone in abit, in a different direction,
but this is your world, and thisis what you do, and I think it's
so important for us to hear thatthat trust at all levels has to
exist through evidence.
So whatever role you're in, howare you going to provide
evidence for the person that youare teaching that they can build
a new identity around math?

Lauren (50:49):
I think that's really, really beautiful, and I also
think the work that you'redoing.
So one of the other things Iwould recommend to people who
are trying to figure out how tosupport their systems in doing
this work is doing a book study,right?
I know everybody kind of cringesat a book study or figure out
how to put Math Therapy in yourteacher's hands.
Let them explore it.
Let them look at it.

(51:10):
As a leader, find your favoritechapter and, and focus in on
that space and share it out,right?
Like, the very first thing Iwould do would be making that
list of let's talk about maththings, and working through that
process.
Just again, it was a low-stakesmoment that you gave me to ease
into thinking about my ownexperience differently after I
had sort of sorted out all ofthe rest of the mess.

(51:31):
So I do think actually lookingat people who have done great
research and who are sharinggreat experiences and who have
just proven track records ofhaving really good conversations
around this thing that is veryreal, and then pushing forward
through it.
We also have to, as a community,which I had to do as a human,
decide that we are going tocommit to doing the hard thing.

(51:55):
Womp, womp.
Right?
I don't like doing hard thingsat this age that I'm at.
It's just not something that Ireally seek out as much as I
should.
I am committing to doing thishard thing, right?
I can learn more.
I can grow more.
I can think more.
I can see it differently.

(52:15):
I can start having conversationswith people around why they're
feeling the way that they'refeeling and point them to the
experts and to the greatresources and to the incredible
humans that I know that can helpthem shift that lens, right?
It's interesting'cause I didn'tactually want to change.
We established that.
But I was compelled to changewhen people who are and

(52:39):
thoughtful And have incredibleexperiences started pointing it
out to me that this was a worthychange.
This was a change that was notjust going to be a thing, but it
was gonna actually impact how Ithought about all of the things
that I care about or how I, um,functioned in my day-to-day
life.

Well, I just think that is the perfect tie-in
to the idea of trust, to behonest, I, I think there's a few
things here, and I think it's soimportant that we drive this
home, that listening, we wouldthink,"But who wouldn't want to
change?
Who wouldn't want to, uh,suddenly absorb an identity
where they can do this thingthey've thought they c- they

(53:18):
haven't been able to do?
Who wouldn't want to?" And youguys have to remember, there is
so much human psychology aroundthis, right?
Around the idea, way back in theday when we evolved, the idea of
our tribal nature of wanting tobe in community.
And one of the main reasonspeople do not want to undergo an
identity change when they're s-clinged so tightly to it is our
ego, right?
It is what defines us, are thethings we feel good at, the

(53:41):
things we like, the things wedon't like.
So it's not a matter of,quote-unquote,"proving something
wrong." I think this is aconversation Lauren's bringing
up that it would be really greatto have with the next time
somebody, you know, expressesthat they're not a math person.
You know, my favorite firstquestion is:"Interesting.
Did you ever have a negativeexperience with math?" letting

(54:01):
them talk it out with you.
And I think I'm now gonna add anew question that I'm gonna play
around with, which might besomething like I don't know.
I'm gonna workshop it, but maybemy next question, depending
where the conversation would go,goes, would be, what if you
could suddenly, like, feel goodabout math?

(54:21):
Would you want that?
Like, I think there would be...
It would be...
Right?
It would be cool to do aquestion where you're kinda
asking the person before youlaunch into helping them.
It's like, it's like they sayabout, like, you know, like
alcoholics almost, right?
Like, it's like you can't helpsomeone unless they wanna help
themselves.
And it's like, thinking aboutyou, there was some deeper work
going on there, but there was acuriosity.

(54:42):
You already had a curiosity.
What if we have a student or aneducator that's just like,"Nope,
math was never for me, never isgonna be for me"?
My first question might be like,"Tell me, like, have you had a
bad experience with math?" Imight wanna hear all that.
And then I might wanna be like,"Would you...
Like, if, if I could wave a, amagic wand, if I could snap my
fingers, if I was...
You know, if there was a geniein a bottle that could grant you
a wish, and suddenly you could,like, understand math and be

(55:04):
good at it, would you wantthat?" And if they said no, I'd
be so excited to understand why,and to get them talking about
why, because th- you're not thefirst person to say this to me.
In my interview with Charizma,which we'll link in the show
notes, who I did math therapywith in Bali, she said the same
thing.
She expressed, like,"I don'tknow who I'd be if I didn't like

(55:25):
math," and it unlocked the mostamazing conversation.
Like, she, I don't think sheknew she had that thought, just
like I don't think you, like,knew you had that thought until
it came out.
And once it's out, it's likecleaning your closet.
Like, once the clothes are allon the floor, we can start
figuring out what needs to bediscarded and what to put away.
Okay, sorry, I went on a wholelong rant.
Um, I just think it's such avaluable takeaway because I

(55:45):
certainly never considered thatthe person I was trying to help
might literally not want thehelp because they're protecting
themselves, right?
Like, they're protecting anidentity.
I ne- I never thought aboutthat, and I think you've really
illuminated that for us, sothank you so much.

Lauren (56:01):
Yeah.

Well, okay, so I never let you finish.
I wanna wrap up by letting youfinish what's next for you.
You said you were gonna do ayear of Duolingo.
We're gonna get Duolingo onboard.
Stay tuned for that.
What else are you thinking?
Is this, has this sparkedanything new?
Like, tell me more

Lauren (56:15):
Yeah, I am just trying to figure out how to make math
more alive in my world and inthe work that I do.
So don't know that I'm evergoing to be able to enter into a
space and be a math curriculumexpert, right?
So I, I do have a depth ofknowledge on literacy or ELA
curriculums, and that'ssomething that I can walk into
and easily have conversationsabout.

(56:35):
But what I can start reallythinking about, like I said
earlier, um, or alluded toearlier, is just how we talk to
people about literacy, how wetalk to people about math, and
how that lives in their worlds,in their classrooms, and in
their districts.
So I do think that those areconversations that I can start
trying to be a little bit moreactive in.

(56:57):
Also, I'm just trying to findmore opportunities to let math
live in my everyday world.
So that was a pivotal momentyesterday with hanging that
crazy picture in this

I love it

Lauren (57:07):
So just trying to be-- And one of it-- part of it too
is just sort of releasing thatI'm not a math person anxiety,
embracing that being a mather,being a learner, being someone
who's willing to, to try and do,but pointing to those moments in
my life where I do a math thingsuccessfully or unsuccessfully
in the natural world and beingthrilled about it.
I was thrilled about doingfractions yesterday.

(57:29):
I was thrilled about calculatingthe tip a couple of weeks ago.
I was thrilled

Oh my God

Lauren (57:34):
there are just a couple, a handful of things that I've
done that I thought, man, I, sixmonths ago, would not even have
attempted, and here I am.

I, I am blown away because I'm like, truly
what I'm thinking is I love maththerapizing everyone.
I want everyone to build abetter relationship with math.
I feel there's something veryspecial about the person you are
who does the work you do, whereyou are dealing with so many
teachers who likely have theirown math trauma, because we know
that a very large, proportion ofelementary teachers have their

(58:06):
own trauma around math.
You are like this beacon oflight amongst this group of
people, and I always say wemight not all be teachers of
math, but we're all teachers ofmath attitude.
So even if you guys aren'ttalking about math, right?

Lauren (58:17):
That's good.
That's good

thank you.
But you are, uh, you are withthe people, right?
The people who need, who need tohear this, who need...
So I feel like you truly aredoing the people's work, and I'm
so curious what your reaction isgoing to be or has been if this
has happened next time you'reamong a group of educators and
they say something like,"Ohyeah, well, I'm glad we're

(58:41):
talking about reading.
This is why I never, you know,I'm so glad I don't teach maths.
I'm not a math person." Or like,what, what do you think you'll
do?

Lauren (58:48):
I'm gonna steal what you exactly just said, and I'm gonna
credit you with it, that, youknow, we might not all be
teachers of math, but we're allteachers of math attitudes,
because I think it's beautiful.
What a better way to communicatethat it may not be the subject
that I'm singly focused on, butI sure am teaching children how
to feel about it or how to thinkabout it or how to internalize
their own self-worth around it,right?

(59:10):
So that's exactly what I'm goingto say back to them and, and,
and, and join your mathcommittee next time.
Figure out how to be a part ofthat curriculum selection the
next time you're in the room andyou have that opportunity or
have a conversation about it.
But I think that's my big lightbulb moment in this
conversation.
Well, I've had so many in thisconversation that we've had, but

(59:30):
I really genuinely believe thatthat's a phrase that carries so
much weight and impact.
And on top of that, while youwere talking, it popped in my
brain that we have this sayingin education that basically, um,
what's a good kind of reteachstrategy for one student is
likely a good reteach strategyfor every student in the room.
So, you know, when we, when wedig in or we, um, intervene or

(59:55):
we teach something a little bitdeeper, it's probably good for
everybody to have an at bat withit too because it just sharpens
our skills and gives us theopportunity to expand our
thinking.
And it made me think one of thebest things any district can do
when they're thinking about howthey teach math is host a math
therapy session.
And I mean that genuinely andtru-truly, not just from a,

(01:00:15):
like, we're buddies and I wannapromote everything you do always
and forever and want everyone touse you.
But I actually just in piecingall of this together, what a
great entry point for everyone,math haters, math lovers,
mathers in the middle.
What a great entry point foreveryone to walk in the room
together and be able to valuesalign on what matters in what

(01:00:38):
we're doing every day, anddigging into how we feel and
think and act about math so thatwe can start thinking about how
we're inviting students tointernalize that themselves.
And I think I'm gonna take backeverything that I said before
about what I would tell peopleto do and how I would do my own
work if I were to go back intime as an administrator, and

(01:00:58):
I'd still do that stuff.
But the first thing I would dois engage in a math therapy-- in
some math therapy work, right?
Like really digging into the, tothe book, really thinking about
the strategies and practicesthat you did with me that
weren't a heavy-- They-- I hopethey weren't a heavy lift for
you.
But they were great, a greatheavy lift for me.
It was thinking and really doingwhat teachers love to do, which

(01:01:21):
is to get better at what they'redoing so that they're better
serving the students that are inthe classroom.
And math therapy is the entrypoint.
I genuinely believe it.

Vanessa Vakharia (01:01:30):
Well, like, should I even say anything else?
Like, I mean, you just, you justLike, that was You're, you're
unbelievable at what you do.
You're now also my officialmascot.
Lauren, I have loved this somuch.
I could talk to you for hours.
to ask the two final questionsthat I ask everyone.
You have 30 seconds to answer.
And before I do, I wanna tellyou guys, I think Lauren and I,

(01:01:52):
if you're listening andsomething here resonated with
you, and you were like,"Oh myGod, that's me.
I think I might not wanna let goof my identity of not being a
math person," can you text us?

Lauren (01:02:03):
Yes

Hit the link in your show notes.
I wanna know.
I wanna, I wanna know if you,like, are like,"Yep, that might
be me," and I want to know why.
Like,

Lauren (01:02:11):
Yes, me too

and also, right?
We wanna know, I also just lovewhat you just said there about,
like, this work around maththerapy is thinking work, right?
It's thinking and reflecting.
We want our students to thinkand reflect in math.
Start by having them think andreflect about their feelings
around math.
Okay, are you ready?
Two

Lauren (01:02:27):
Yes.

30 seconds to answer.

Lauren (01:02:29):
Okay

one, someone's listening to this, they're like,
"Oh my God, I- Lauren, she's soinspiring.
She's incredible.
Oh my God, but the thing is, I,sin- I, since as long as I can
remember, I have known I'm not amath person.
This does not apply to me." Whatwould you say?

Lauren (01:02:43):
Uh, you're a person person first.
So we're not math people, we'renot reading people.
I'm stealing it from Deborah.
It really made an impact on me.
But we're learners, so I inviteyou to come be a learner with
me, and let's learn not math,not reading

l- love that.
Is that what she says?
We're learners and that's it,

Lauren (01:03:03):
No, I think she says something more beautiful than
that that makes a lot moresense.
But basically her point is likemathers, writers, readers,
they're people who are out theredoing a thing.
We're learners.
We're out here doing a thing.
Let's just learn together.
Remove the boundary of it's math

I really like that.
Okay, and finally, if you couldwave a magic wand and change one
thing about the way math istaught in school right now, what
would it be?

Lauren (01:03:26):
Oh my goodness.
I would, um, eliminate fully andcompletely time testing.
You know why.
We talked about this deeply, butit does not serve the purpose
that we want it to serve.
And it does a tremendous load ofdamage on students that's life
lifelong, right?
Like poster child here.
So no more time tests.
It would help a lot of hearts

You're so great.
I wanna move to your Christmastree farm and just have our own
show and talk about this all thetime.
We could have our own guests,and we could do Math Therapy
together because I feel like nowyou're, like, official, right?
Like, you could be doing thework.
We could be doing it together.

Lauren (01:04:04):
Yeah

cop, bad cop.
But we're both the good cop

Lauren (01:04:07):
I was gonna say, I think that doesn't work'cause we're
both the good cop.

Lauren, you were so-- Okay, first of all,
pause before I wrap up.
Is there anything you wanted tosay that you didn't get the
chance to say?

Lauren (01:04:17):
No.
I just wanted to really point tohow incredible I don't think
that I articulated well justwhat a big thing your time in my
life that day has been over thecourse of the past couple of
months in just reshaping how Ireally internalize math for
myself and for the people in myworld.
So ultimately, if I could saythe one thing that I wanna say,

(01:04:40):
it's just really, like, thanks.
Thank you for conceptualizingthis thing, doing this work, not
being afraid of people who arereally resistant in general to
math and likely have terribleattitudes about it.
That's hard work to do.
So you have changed this humanbeing in a really, really big
way

you know, it means so much to me,'cause
sometimes I feel like, oh myGod, we spent, like, an hour and
a half- well, we spent the daytogether, but,

Lauren (01:05:08):
Yeah.

one time together,

Lauren (01:05:09):
Yeah

I know a lot of people will say, like, you
know,"There's no such thing asone and done," and,"How
effective is it?" And I'm like,I always feel like, of course,
it would be amazing if I couldmeet with you every single week.
Like, sure.
But I think I want everyonelistening to This isn't to,
like, just boost myself here.
Like, I'm just saying what yousaid, so you've said it for me.
But it's like, don'tunderestimate the impact you can
have in one interaction.

(01:05:30):
You can turn a student off ofmath in one interaction.
You can say something that turnsthem off of math, and you can
say something that really booststheir confidence.
So fine, we all wish we had moretime.
I wish I could move to Lauren'sChristmas tree farm and hang out
and do math therapy with herevery day.
But you still are making animpact just in one interaction,
so that actually means a lot.
Okay.
this is our own Christmasrom-com.

Lauren (01:05:51):
I think we're best friends forever.

Oh, yeah.
Put some Christmas music in thispart.

Lauren (01:05:55):
Oh, yeah

ho, ho.
Okay.
Was that not the best non-LoveIsland reunion literally ever?
I mean, talk about a Hallmarkrom-com ending.
And yes, I know I'm mixing upHollywood tropes and metaphors,
but what I'm really trying tosay is I'm so grateful to Lauren
for sharing her story with us,and I really do want to move to
her Christmas tree farm.

(01:06:18):
If you or anyone you know arestruggling with math trauma, I
hope this two-part series gaveyou hope that it's never too
late to build a happier,healthier relationship with
math.
I always say that confidenceisn't just positive thinking,
it's remembered evidence, and Ihope this series serves as
evidence that it can happen foranyone, including you.
Also, guys, I'm not even joking,I've emailed three people at

(01:06:39):
Duolingo and DM'd two of them onLinkedIn, and I'm serious about
getting this sponsorship, so ifyou know anyone who knows anyone
who works there, text me.
Hit the Text Us link in yourshow notes and spill the tea.
Let's make this happen.
#Manifesting#seeyounextweek

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