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Vanessa recently took one step closer to her dream of hosting a Netflix show, recording the first ever live Math Therapy interview!
For her session last week at Leander ISD's annual Math Joy Conference in Texas, she interviewed self-proclaimed "chaos-driven non-compliant educator" Chase Orton - and you can now hear their extremely unfiltered conversation in front of a room full of teachers whose gasps are VERY audible throughout!
Chase and Vanessa share a fearlessness in calling out the education as it is, and in this convo they cover hot topics like:
- how teachers can stay motivated in a broken system
- who standardized testing benefits (hint: not students or teachers!)
- how to follow the rules while rebelling against the status quo
About Chase: (Website, YouTube)
As an accomplished facilitator of lesson study for K-12 math teachers, Chase Orton partners with districts who are interested in taking a teacher-centered, teacher-directed approach to professional development. Chase is also the author of The Imperfect and Unfinished Teacher of Mathematics.
Contact us:
- Vanessa Vakharia: Instagram, TikTok, Email
- Math Therapy: Text the Podcast
More Math Therapy:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Vanessa Vakharia (00:04):
Guys, oh my God, I cannot believe I'm about
to say this, but welcome to ourfirst ever live off the floor
Math Therapy podcast episode.
That's right, I have manifestedmy becoming a less creepy Dr.
Phil and a half as cool Oprahdreams by low-key turning this
podcast into a talk show.
So last week, I presented atLeander ISD's annual Math Joy
(00:25):
Conference, and I turned one ofmy sessions into an interview in
front of a live studio audience,and it was the coolest thing
ever.
Now, did I almost blow up mylaptop attempting to get sound
directly from the speaker intomy MacBook?
Yes.
Did I then almost have a mildpanic attack?
Also yes.
Did I then get the incredibleaudience to lend me three of
(00:46):
their phones so I could recordvoice memos from different
angles in an attempt to getaudio that David wouldn't kill
me over?
Yes, yes, and yes.
And did it work?
Heck yes, it did.
The thing is, I'm kind of gladthis interview was live because
it was low-key jaw-dropping atpoints, and it was kind of cool
to see, like, listeners' jawsdrop in real time Now, why was
(01:06):
it jaw-dropping, you ask?
Well, because I interviewed theone and only Chase Orton, author
of The Imperfect and UnfinishedMath Teacher, king disruptor of
the math ed world.
If you've ever felt like you'reso bound by curriculum
companies, standardized testing,and systemic obstacles that
you're burning out and burningup by the second, this episode
is for you.
In this totally raw andunfiltered interview, Chase does
(01:29):
not hold back on his belief thatthe past 40 years of top-down PD
efforts in math have rarelysupplied teachers with what they
need to equitably grow theirpractice, and he shares the one
thing he believes we all need todo right now to truly flourish
in this profession.
he also does not hold back onsharing his views on how a
(01:50):
particular curriculum company iscompletely destroying education.
You'll see.
The tea is hot.
So buckle up and welcome to thefirst ever Math Therapy Live
talk show.
I'm so happy you're here.
Okay, this is actually veryexciting,'cause we have...
Are you nervous?
Chase Orton (02:08):
No, I'm focused.
I am- grounding myself,pretending that there aren't 55
eyes out there, 56 eyes,probably, an even number-
looking at me, and I'm just...
Yeah, I'm ready.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:20):
Okay.
Well, I am very excited.
So this has been a dream of mineforever.
If you guys don't know, I have apodcast called Ma- hi, guys.
Okay, that's gonna be in therecording.
This is gonna sound so real.
I'm wearing too many jinglythings.
Okay, So I have a podcast calledMath Therapy.
And it is my dream to have aNetflix show.
This isn't about me.
This is gonna be about Chase.
but the point is, it's alwaysbeen my dream to have a Netflix
(02:40):
show, and I wanna have, like, astyle of a show where we have
these real conversations.
And as Peter Liljedahl alwayssays,"The smartest person in the
room is the room," right?
There are so many people whohave s- who know so many things.
So I thought it'd be really coolto do, like, a fireside chat.
We are recording this.
(03:00):
We don't know if it's gonnawork, but maybe it's gonna be a
podcast, and you guys are gonnabe our first live audience ever.
Woo.
So, okay, so we're gonna chat.
I'm gonna ask you somequestions, and I'm gonna save 10
minutes for Q&A,'cause I thinkthat would be cool, too, and I
feel like that's whatprofessional people do.
Chase Orton (03:18):
Great.
Can I add on to your Netflixidea?
Vanessa Vakharia (03:20):
Please do.
Chase Orton (03:20):
Yeah.
I want to have a segment on thatof math class in America where
remember John Oliver back whenhe was on the- Oh, yeah John
Stewart Show, right, and he wasa side piece?
And I would just like to gotravel around rural America and
teach math class with people andget their story and hear about
their experiences.
(03:41):
So I've driven all over thiscountry, and I've been to really
small towns, and I drive throughand I'm like,"Man, that was just
a school.
Somebody is teaching math thereevery day.
How are they doing?
Who are they?
What's their story?" I don'tknow if it'll be a full Netflix
show, but if you can get theNetflix show and I could just
ride your coattails- I love-That'd be great.
That'd be great.
That'd be great
Vanessa Vakharia (04:00):
I do love this, and you know what?
I will say, I actually had ameeting with Netflix in 2020.
I did.
Chase Orton (04:06):
Oh, okay.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:06):
I did.
I did.
I actually had a meeting withthem, and I pitched them Math
Therapy, but it was more of,like, the format of Queer Eye
for the Straight Guy, if youguys have seen that.
It's like somebody shows up tosomeone's house and gives them a
makeover with their mathidentity.
Sure.
Sure.
They, they literally said to me,"If the word math is in the
title, no one will watch it."
Audience (04:23):
Oh.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:25):
Oh, my God, that was like a studio audience
noise right there.
Anyways, my point is, I likethis.
I, I really like this idea, andguys, look at how many of us are
in here.
I think we can manifest this,and it starts today.
It's starting right now withChase Orton.
Chase Orton (04:38):
Sure.
I love it.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:39):
Welcome to the podcast.
Chase Orton (04:40):
Thanks for having me.
It's been a while.
I'm glad I'm here.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:44):
I'd like to start where things began today
when we ran into each otherhere, probably meeting for only
the second or third time, and Isaid to Chase,"I think we are
polar opposites." And Chasesaid,"I disagree with that." I'd
like you to tell the audiencewhy you disagreed with that,
because I actually think it tiesinto your philosophy as an
(05:05):
educator.
Chase Orton (05:06):
Sure.
Okay.
Uh, I think there are, asteachers, there are people that,
teachers that are willing to,uh, mess around and find out,
right?
Like, to try out a lesson, torisk, to fail, to flop first
period, revise the secondperiod, and we're pretty
comfortable with uncertainty andpublic failure in front of our
(05:27):
students.
And perhaps sometimes we don'talways think things through.
Maybe we jump, dri- dive inbefore really seeing if there's
water in the pool.
Um, and I think maybe there aresome teachers that are really
disciplined and superstructured- and super ordered,
and they've got all thepedagogic moves down, and they
can choreograph 30 squirrelykids into something that
(05:48):
resembles cohesive, like,thinking and talking and, and,
um, uh, so I think that thereare two types of those teachers,
and I think we're both kind ofthe chaos-driven teachers of
just- Let's, we got, I, I don'tknow what's gonna happen, but we
can talk about it forever, or wecould just teach first period
and have an experience.
I see that.
Yeah, yeah.
So-
Vanessa Vakharia (06:07):
Chaos-driven teachers.
I actually love that term, andI'm curious who here would
relate to that.
Who here feels like achaos-driven teacher?
Some of us.
And who is like,"That's my worstnightmare"?
Actually.
So we see who all the Virgos arenow.
Okay, that's very clear.
And
Chase Orton (06:23):
I, I think it's our relationship with ambiguity.
And so much about teaching is,like, we just don't know.
Like, it's, it's such a hardjob.
Um, um, and the judgment callswe have to make.
But it requires, I think, a lotof comfort in ambiguity.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:39):
So I'd like to actually know, like, we're here
at a forum for math joy, andthis is a podcast about math
anxiety and trauma that, notjust on the side of students,
but teachers as well.
I'm curious how somebody'scomfort or discomfort with
ambiguity- might actually cometo play and intersect with an
anxiety they have around math.
(07:01):
Like, do you think there's arelationship between the two?
Chase Orton (07:04):
I think that ambiguity is not as celebrated
and encouraged in a mathclassroom.
Like, we gotta get to the rightanswer, and it's either, the
final answer is either right orwrong, and we don't let that
uncertainty hang enough.
I think, um, Dan Meyer talksabout we're always in a rush to
reach resolution rather thanhanging with- with a unsolved
(07:28):
problem or unresolved problem bythe end of class and, and
picking it up moving forward.
So, um, yeah, I think for somestudents or learners in a
classroom, if they don'timmediately know the answer,
they might think that they'rebad at math.
And then therefore, if they are,are feeling ambiguity, they
(07:49):
might start to think they're nota math person, even though I
think that's where it's thatdelicious ambiguity that math
joy kind of exists.
Vanessa Vakharia (07:58):
I really love that, and I can imagine for many
educators who maybe don't feelso great at math or feel anxious
around math- that the more thatambiguity settles, you're like,
"Oh my God, I can't get to theanswer," like, da, da, da, da,
da, da, da, and all of a suddenthat actually puts us into a
trauma response.
Like, all of a sudden that canlead to freeze.
Right?
Because often the ambiguity whenyou're kind of like,"I don't
(08:19):
know how to do something," ifit's not celebrated, that
becomes a scary feeling, andthen all of a sudden we get
triggered, and so we shut down.
How do you move by, past that?
Chase Orton (08:30):
Uh, I hear you talking and I'm always thinking
about the teachers and theirpractice, right, and their
ambiguity, and, and not justpresenting a problem that may
not, we may not get an answer totoday.
For me, and the title of thisworkshop is about how do we fall
in love with our job again- asteachers, right?
And, and I think for us, we'vebeen told, I guess, this myth
(08:53):
that as teachers, we need tohave all the answers- Yeah and
be the answer key, and we'renot.
Like, it, it, it takes a lot ofcourage to lean into that
discomfort.
Lean into, not just theambiguity and the mathematics,
but the ambiguity of how do Idesign a single learning
experience for 28 kids that areall in different places?
(09:14):
And I've been in some amazingclassrooms this year, right?
Yeah.
Of wildly different students,right?
And last year at Danielson,right, like, and just period to
period and the vibe in the room,as a teacher, I, I think for us
is it's about embracing thatambiguity.
And so I think m- maybe I'm withthe therapy for teachers, you
(09:35):
know, like ch- Yeah what is it?
Soup, uh, Chicken Noodle Soupfor the Teaching Soul, right?
Like I-
Vanessa Vakharia (09:40):
That is a real throwback.
I, it is, it is.
Chase Orton (09:42):
That was the whole thing, right?
Yeah.
Um, and, and so I think you'rereally looking at the identity
and agency of adults and youngpeople- Yeah in the math
classroom.
And, I am looking at teacherswho are burnt out dealing with
the, the BS of standardizedtesting and pacing plans and
yuck, that stuff.
And so how do we re- maintainour resilience and our love for
(10:06):
teaching?
Um, and I, I, I believe that alot of us are really different.
Some of us, like me, arecomfortable with ambiguity.
Some other people need to havemore order and structure, and we
both learn from each other bywatching lessons, I, I, I think
from Danielson, right?
That you are There was somereally good learning out of
there in ways that I needed morestructure and more thinking
(10:27):
things through, and learning togrow in that way, that structure
is important.
Having a vision and a plan isreally important.
And it's not just about, like,cool task, let's dive in and see
what happens.
And by third period, it's gonnabe pretty good, right?
Vanessa Vakharia (10:40):
Well, I mean, what I'm thinking too is, fine,
we have this spectrum ofambiguity versus, like,
organization or, like, chaosversus not, but let's go back to
this idea of burnout because,like just looking around the
room, there was a l- a lot offolks nodding and being like,
"Yeah, we feel pretty burntout." And I wonder if when we
have this set outcome and thisthing we're like, you know, what
(11:02):
did Jenny Bay Williams just say?
Nobody likes to be should on,right?
When we have this thing that weshould and we're supposed to be
doing, is it the striving forthat that leads to burnout?
Just like when a student has amath problem with a solution
they're supposed to be getting,feeling like they're not getting
there, like feeling like you'renot getting the outcome, is that
(11:22):
the catalyst for burnout?
And is there a way- that if welet go of the outcome-
Chase Orton (11:28):
Sure
Vanessa Vakharia (11:29):
like what Do you guys feel- Sure like that is
a catalyst for burnout, beinglike,"I'm not getting to where
I'm supposed to be"?
They're all going,"Yeah, yeah,yeah, yeah." Yeah, uh- Okay,
just for the recording.
Make sure.
I,
Chase Orton (11:41):
I mean, I, I've been there as a teacher where
you're like,"All right, I've gotthis task.
It's gonna go like this." Andthen the kids just wanna take it
a different direction.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:49):
Okay.
Chase Orton (11:49):
And I, I don't know if we...
Have we been there as, as ateacher?
Like, you're like,"Do I just tryto bring the herd back to where
I want them to go, or do I justkinda be like,'All right, herd,
where are we going?'" And followtheir curiosity.
And I, I think that there was,this makes me a bad teacher
based on today's norms, but Ihad to let go of the
(12:10):
expectations that I wantedstudents to get and honor that
they were gonna make their ownmeaning.
And sometimes that meaning wasmore important, more brilliant,
more inspiring for me thanreaching my intended learning
target that could probably waittill tomorrow.
And so I think, for me as ateacher, it was, like, really
just trying to create anopportunity to, to get kids
(12:30):
curious and interested, but Ihad to let go of my vision of
what success looked like.
Because then I get mad, and thenwe are...
I, I don't know about you, but Ihave an inner child as a teacher
that gets kind of mad andgrumpy, and then two or three
days of kids getting under myskin, and now I'm, like,
short-tempered with students.
I don't know if you ever getshort-tempered- with your
(12:51):
students, but-
Vanessa Vakharia (12:52):
They're all saying,"No, me, never, Chase."
Chase Orton (12:53):
Um, you know, but they're...
And I talk about this in mybook.
Like, there were times when Iwould not scream, but I would
have my big, big voice of like-"Why am I the hardest person
working in the room right now?
Where are you?
Why aren't you here?" And it'seasy to find myself blaming
kids, and that's not nourishingmy passion, right?
That might be causing mathtrauma for them.
Vanessa Vakharia (13:15):
That just also looked like you, your blood
pressure just shot up- Oh, yeaheven in that reenactment.
Like, it's so...
But, like, truly, like, right?
Because part of what we don'ttalk about with burnout is our
nervous system.
Yeah.
And how, like, literally beingin the state of escalation, and,
like, us, ourse- Are you okay?
Chase Orton (13:31):
Yeah, yeah.
No, I'm- Yes.
I was just thinking back to thattime I was in a...
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I get emotional.
Vanessa Vakharia (13:36):
Right?
Like, you're just like, oh myGod, you're constantly on edge.
So I wanna...
I really like this idea of...
Because, you know, there's somuch in basically every single
text, whether you're a spiritualperson or not, or what- whatever
your brand of spirituality is,even if it's nothing, and even
it's just hard science, thatactually what leads to suffering
(13:56):
the most is resistance.
Right?
It's resisting the flow.
So when we're like,"It's coldoutside," and you're like,"I
wish it was hot," like, that'scausing way more s- more
suffering than you just beinglike,"It's cold and it sucks,"
right?
Like, it's just, it's that innerresistance.
And for our nervous systems aswell, it's resistance.
It's being like,"I don't wantthings to be this way," as
opposed to being likeacceptance, right?
(14:17):
We have resistance versusacceptance.
And you're talking about that,you know, like, to go from where
we started here, which wasambiguity, you're kinda going
from when we accept that wedon't know the answer, when we
accept that the lesson is takingthis direction, and we stop
resisting it, not only doeslearning happen, but we
physically, emotionally,cognitively feel better, right?
(14:38):
'Cause we're no longer fighting.
We're no longer fighting.
But my, my question always is,and I would really like for you
to talk us through this, as thisis your specialty- Okay is talk
to the teacher in the room who'slike,"I love that.
I wanna be de-escalated.
I wanna be chill vibes.
I want to follow the chaos, butI also need to meet these
targets.
I also need them to learn thisthing.
(15:00):
What...
How do we do it?"
Chase Orton (15:02):
Uh, I don't want anybody in the room to get
fired.
Um- Sure.
Good start.
But sometimes to be, to be theteacher you need, your students
need you to be means that maybeyou're a non-cooperative
employee.
Um, and I know that that is alittle bit risky to say, but I
think that there are a lot ofthings that we are asked to do
(15:25):
as teachers that aren't aboutgood teaching and aren't
necessarily good for us or ourstudents.
And the resistance, to me,becomes how can I be compliant
to get leadership off my back ina way that minimizes my effort
so I can create the time- tocreate classrooms where kids
wanna be there.
(15:46):
Um, and there were times that Ijust was a non-compliant
employee.
I'm like,"Sorry, principal, I'mjust not gonna do that." And it
puts me at odds.
Like, I, again, I don't want anyof you to get fired.
Like, you have mortgages andkids and families, and I live
out of a box truck and don'thave kids.
And so there's-
Vanessa Vakharia (16:05):
A lot to unpack here.
Chase Orton (16:06):
There's a lot to unpack.
Um, but I, I, I, I, I know that-
Vanessa Vakharia (16:12):
But I feel you.
This is- Yeah like, I mean, thisis our similarity probably,
where we're like, the red tapemakes us both cray cray.
Chase Orton (16:19):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:19):
Right?
Yeah.
So I get it.
But, but realistically- Sure Ifeel being a non-compliant
employee might be...
Is there a middle ground?
Right?
Because, because I hear whatyou're saying, and also, I think
there probably is, right?
There are...
'cause I think we have to holdtwo truths, which is we want
kids to enjoy math.
We want to follow the flow.
We want to have room for theselearning experiences.
(16:40):
We don't wanna be so rigid, butwe do...
There are, like, they need to,like, learn certain things, for
example.
Because you know what?
Compliant or not, we don't wannasend them to the next grade
teacher not knowing the thingsthat they're supposed to know.
That's not just, we don't wannado that as peoples.
And then is there a way to doboth?
Like, is there a way to followthe flow of the whatever your
lesson is going to and somehowbring them back?
(17:01):
Like, what's the vibe?
Chase Orton (17:02):
The inclusive response is to try to say that
maybe there's a middle way, andI think everybody in this room
is figuring that out.
I want to be a little bit moresubversive and just say no.
Like, I, I...
you need to learn this for nextyear's math class is not a valid
argument that is gonna winstudents over.
(17:24):
And I, I invite us to push backon that and to really think
about, is, is it worth spendingeight weeks in Algebra 1 doing
quadratic- is that a what wellyou, well wor- a worthwhile use
of our time as, as adults and,and what we're asking students
to think about but you gottateach it, but I'm also
(17:47):
wondering, like, is it worth it?
And- what can be the otherthings that don't cause math
trauma that are more interestingand more invigorating for us to
teach as teachers?
And I know that I'm a little biton the fringe, on the outsider
of this.
Um, and I'm blessed for the workthat I have to be able to work
with amazing teachers in anamazing system like Leander, and
(18:10):
I've been this is my wrapping up20 days here- Yeah and I've got
eight more next year.
Bring me to your site.
I hope we get to keep teachingtogether.
And it's been, like, familiarfaces are a precious thing, and
so I'm deeply grateful for thefamiliar faces that I see in
this room from my workshops, butalso from teaching together.
and I would like to keep thatgoing, and I, I enjoy the
(18:32):
community, but I also get to bea critic.
Vanessa Vakharia (18:35):
Yeah, I think that's maybe the, the role.
Like, maybe I'm asking even thewrong question because that's
the whole thing is you, andprobably me too, hence why I
don't teach in a classroom,would be like,"I can't, I- I
don't wanna say I can't, but I'mlike, you're kind of like,"Well,
I don't want to." Like, that'smy- Yeah.
We all have our lines, right, ofthings where we're like, where
we, this is where we're willingto cross the line, this is where
(18:55):
we're not.
And that is why we have amazingteachers that are not us
actually teaching math, right?
Because you, they're, they'reable to be like,"Okay, I can
actually see the middle path,"and maybe that's it.
I think sometimes, too, forthings to change, you do hear
something polarizing, like,coming from you, where you're
like,"Well, here's what I woulddo.
(19:17):
I would every single day let thelesson take me wherever it
wanted to go." And maybesomeone's listening and is like,
"Cool.
Like, that's too much for me.""But maybe I could do that,
like, 5% of the time." Sure.
"And maybe that would move thedial."
Audience (19:30):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (19:31):
I mean, I think it's kind of unreasonable
that every single person justthrow it all to the wind, given
the system that, like, there isa system
Chase Orton (19:38):
Yeah.
Uh, I don't think I, I And I'mcoming at this from a high
school perspective.
Sure.
But, like, there's so much crapin the high school standards-
Yeah that is just, it's likewe're guaranteeing the kids are
leaving high school with anegative opinion about math.
In part because the content thatwe're forced to teach.
And I, I would invite teachersto push back on that, but now we
(20:00):
need to substitute it withmathematic tasks that are worth
thinking about, that areinteresting.
And this is where I like Peter'snon-curricular tasks, right?
Interesting puzzles and problemsthat, that promote sense-making
and perseverance and, and, butthey're not neatly aligned to
the standards.
They're aligned to the standardsfor mathematical practice or
your TEKs.
(20:21):
What do you call them here?
TEKs.
TEKs, right.
But not the content TEKs.
The process.
The pro- The process proc-process.
That's what you call them?
Okay.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:27):
Give me an ex- Okay I feel like an outsider.
Chase Orton (20:29):
Uh- I literally am, but like- I-
Audience (20:31):
It's the how.
Chase Orton (20:32):
It's the Right.
So in-
Vanessa Vakharia (20:33):
Give me one example.
Chase Orton (20:34):
Well, in the, the Common Core, I don't know if Big
Brother heard me say that phrasehere on The Great State of
Texas.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:40):
It is a podcast.
Chase Orton (20:40):
But I would imagine that in the process standards,
there is something aboutperseverance, making sense of
problems and persevering andsolving.
That we will, uh, critiqueargument, construct arguments,
and critique the reasoning ofothers.
We will pay attention toprecision, and value that.
We'll look for structure and howcan we use repeated reasoning.
And it doesn't matter if you'rea Common Core state or not,
(21:02):
every state, Florida's got theseven best.
Um, you've got your TEKs processstandards.
Common Core has their standardsfor mathematical practice.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:09):
There's like a version of it everywhere.
And the- I get it
Chase Orton (21:11):
it is your how, and it's 50% of what we do, right?
And, and, but all we s- talkabout is our content and test
scores and exit tickets anddata, data, data that-
Vanessa Vakharia (21:23):
You're stressing people out.
I can see people going into a-Ah state right now.
Right?
And like- I feel we need topause and do some breathing for
you.
I,
Chase Orton (21:31):
I, I mean, I, I really, I'm worried about our
profession.
I only made it 12 years as ateacher.
Uh, we can get down to the roadwhy I chose to leave the
classroom.
Yes.
Um- We will.
Okay.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Maybe, maybe interview two.
Um, we'll see.
But I will say that I didn'tknow how to be the teacher I
wanted to be without burning mycandle at both ends.
(21:52):
And so I didn't know how- To doit, and, and I never went into
math teaching because I lovedmath.
I liked school and the problemof building community and
motivating people to be curiousand empower each other.
I just was okay at high schoolmath, and then that was some job
(22:12):
s- security.
Like, it was a lot easier to geta math teaching position than an
English teaching position, whichis what my degree was in.
and I just It wasn't about themath.
It was about the problem of howdo I get people to feel
empowered and support- eachother.
And, so for me, I come at it ata very different angle.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:30):
Okay.
Great math- Um- Great math pun,though, that you just threw in
there.
I know.
Yeah, sure.
Mr.
English.
Okay.
Chase Orton (22:35):
It was totally, totally accidental.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:36):
Hold on.
I gotta say a couple things.
Okay.
'Cause I actually think this isso touching.
There's a few things you saidthat I'm like,"Let's not
actually gloss over thesethings." First of all, you two
Well, y- I feel Although ourwhole podcast is us discovering
how not that different we are,because I was telling the last
group I just did a talk with, Imean, for me, I I'm a math
teacher because math is whatgave me my wings to realize what
(22:59):
I was capable of, because Ifailed it so much and was told I
couldn't do it.
Sure.
And when I busted through it, Iwas like,"Wow, this is a
beautiful gateway." I do lovemath.
Yeah.
But I became a math teacher toshow kids exactly what you're
talking about, is I wanted toshow them empowerment- through
beating the odds, throughproblem-solving, through
discovering what's possible.
(23:19):
But I wanna go back a stepfurther to what you just said
about the TEKS or the practicesor non-curricular.
'Cause I actually think you'renot giving yourself enough
credit, you're saying, you know,the non-curricular tasks and I
just didn't know how to do it,and like this and that, and like
whatever, screw the curriculum.
You didn't say...
These are not your words.
But- what I, I actually callthese, what you guys are calling
TEKS, and practices, andstandards, I call math adjacent
(23:41):
practices.
Which is any sort of skill thatis also useful in math class,
problem-solving, perseverance,like grit, productive struggle,
um, perspective, creativity, anyof those skills.
Because I actually think thatwhen we teach those skills in a
math class, we are...
You know when people are like,"But you need math for real
life." I'm always like,"You needthose skills for real life."
(24:02):
Yeah.
Right?
Like, those are the skills.
But the thing is, when you teacha non-curricular task, or
something non-curricular, or youlet your lesson go a bit off the
rails, but you are stilllearning all of those things and
teaching all of those k- things.
Those are a p- not onlyapplicable when it comes to
something more curricular orcontent driven.
So now they take, like,"Oh, Itook a risk.
(24:24):
Oh, I thought creatively.
Oh, I problem solved, and nowwe're learning quadrat- we're
literally learning the quadraticalgorithm, and I can use those,
so it is useful." I actuallythink it does something more,
which I think it shows kidsthere are these moments of joy.
There are moments of joy in thisclassroom and I belong here.
Now, when I have to do somethingthat's boring, I am more likely
(24:46):
to feel like I can do it- andthat I want to do it.
And I say this because thinkabout going to the gym.
Or do you work out?
Sorry, that's personal.
Chase Orton (24:53):
No,
Vanessa Vakharia (24:53):
no.
Do you like...
You don't know?
Or like, like, okay, fine, youdrive around, right, in your
van?
Chase Orton (25:02):
Sure, sure.
Do you...
Okay, right?
It's a truck, but yes.
Sorry, I'm so sorry.
It is a truck.
Vanessa Vakharia (25:07):
Sorry.
Uh, yeah, I, I- Okay, you, butyou like to drive, right?
Chase Orton (25:09):
I'm
Vanessa Vakharia (25:09):
an adult, so.
You like to drive.
Chase Orton (25:10):
I
Vanessa Vakharia (25:10):
do like road trips, yes.
But aren't there parts on roadtrips that suck?
Like a really boring-
Chase Orton (25:14):
Yeah, Kansas is pretty bad.
West Texas is, you know, like-
Vanessa Vakharia (25:19):
I don't got the joke.
What's in Kansas?
Chase Orton (25:22):
Nothing.
Oh.
Okay.
It's the same thing.
Okay.
It's like whenever you findyourself near Lubbock, Texas,
like you're just- I mean, nooffense to Lubbock.
It's just- But it's, it's...
West Texas is, is also-
Vanessa Vakharia (25:34):
A bit bland.
Chase Orton (25:35):
Bit bland.
Vanessa Vakharia (25:36):
Okay, so guys, though, but stay with my analogy
here.
If- Yeah you like dr-...
There's lots of great partsabout a road trip, and there's a
lot of parts that kinda suck.
But it makes that Kansas orwhatever you guys are saying it
makes Kansas more bearal-bearable because you're like,
"I'm gonna get through Kansas.
I've gotta get there, to getfrom point A to point B, and
then I'll be in..." I do notknow the geography of this
country.
(25:56):
"Then I'll be in this coolerplace where there's stuff to
look at." I see what's happeningin math class when you do what
you're suggesting the same way.
Like, sometimes the lesson getsoff the rails.
Sometimes we do somethingnon-curricular and you discover
this cool thing about yourselfor about math.
Now, when you have to do thething that's boring, you're more
likely to be like,"All right,fine.
This is just a part of thething." But the overall thing
doesn't suck.
(26:17):
Okay, I think I brought it homeon that metaphor.
What are we thinking?
Okay.
Well, that took a lot.
So- Thank you.
Thank you.
Chase Orton (26:24):
So you're saying, like, to build some joy to, to,
to carry us through the drytimes of math class.
Vanessa Vakharia (26:30):
Yes.
And I, and- Sure what I'm sayingis you...
Like, be- because the way you'retalking about it is you're like,
"Whatever, that's the only way Ican do it," is like,"I be
non-compliant.
I don't know how to find themiddle way." But I think this is
the middle way, is to be like,like Brian Buchalter, I remember
hearing him speak once, and hesays,"If you can't move a
mountain, move a stone." Yes.
If you can't change the entiresystem, move a stone.
(26:50):
And every time you create thesemoments of joy, like you're
suggesting, you're moving astone, and it makes a
difference.
And w- fine, maybe we didn'tredo the whole system.
We didn't scrap the whole, allthe content.
Yeah.
But, like, you're doingsomething.
And I think it, I Like, yes, I'mtalking about the student, but I
think for you as a teacher, youalso are like,"All right, some
days I can just have fun and dowhatever.
Some days I've got to drivethrough Kansas."
Chase Orton (27:12):
Yeah.
I, I, I don't know how manydifferent states we can offend
people from right now.
So I need, I need to owe thecitizens of Lubbock, Texas, and
also Kansas, Nebraska, and um-those states an apology, but,
uh, forgive me.
Um-
Vanessa Vakharia (27:28):
But, like, you know what I mean.
Chase Orton (27:29):
Yeah.
Yes, and I, I-
Vanessa Vakharia (27:32):
Or no, you don't agree
Chase Orton (27:34):
I invite us to think about the times in our
calendar that we really cancontrol.
My favorite time is afterstandardized testing, right?
Okay, great.
So I've got...
And we did it early in myschool, like end of April, and
so I've got May, I've got sixweeks.
I'm gonna make that thejuiciest, wonderful math
experience.
I'm going to pull out my besttasks.
(27:55):
I've got seniors who are sodamaged with their math therapy
that this is my last chance thatI can change their inflection.
And I wanna teach what I wannateach.
I wanna teach about differentways that we can count votes,
and voting systems, and themathematics of democracy, and
thinking about that richness.
And how do we organize, likethinking about Euler paths and
(28:15):
Euler circuits and graph theory,and stuff that removes algebra
as the obstacle, and we're inthese discrete mathematics kind
of topics.
Uh, so I invite, like for us asteachers, we've got, you know,
the pacing plan.
I know you all.
You know exactly what you'reteaching on April 17th next
year.
10 years.
Right?
Yeah.
It is.
Really?
And you're always on it.
(28:35):
Like, you, and I need tocelebrate you, but I'm also a
little alarmed because you're soon accurate.
You're so accurate Like, and I'mlike, does, does, does it ever
not go according to plan?
And like maybe get a little bitbehind.
But, um-
Vanessa Vakharia (28:52):
You all- He has no earth in his top three in
his birth chart, just so youknow.
Ah.
It's all water and fire signs.
Chase Orton (28:58):
We're going down.
Vanessa Vakharia (28:59):
This is, this is explaining a lot, I think.
Zero earth elements.
Chase Orton (29:03):
Ungrounded.
Vanessa Vakharia (29:04):
Okay, keep going though.
Chase Orton (29:05):
Um, and so I just invite us to think about the
times in our schedule, and tothink about our, our legacy as
teachers.
We, we are not gonna beremembered for our test scores.
We are not gonna be rememberedlike,"I'm so glad that I had
Mrs.
So-and-so, and she prepared mefor factoring fourth degree
polynomials by teaching me howto factor second degree
(29:26):
polynomials.
And I'm really grateful for theexperience." And, uh, you know,
I, I...
we remembered about, this ispart of your book, like
unfortunately we're rememberedfor the need for math therapy,
right?
And the trauma we have caused.
And I, I really want us to getgrounded in, in our purpose as,
as teachers and why we do thiswork.
And, and, um, I begin with thatprompt that's over there on the
(29:49):
board.
If you've been to my worksheets,worksheets.
Workshops.
Uh, it is,"It's a great day ofteaching when I see, hear, or
feel my students blank in mathclass." And so I ask teachers
that all the time.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:00):
Should we do it right now?
Chase Orton (30:01):
Uh, well, w- we- Now.
I, sure.
I don't know.
It's your show.
It's your show.
We got 27 minutes.
I don't know how the audience isdoing.
My butt's getting a little numband-
Vanessa Vakharia (30:11):
Oh my God.
Chase Orton (30:12):
Uh, so I don't know how they're doing out there.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:15):
You're such a high maintenance guest.
Chase Orton (30:16):
Do we need...
All right.
All right.
I, I, I mean, I'm just sippingmy coffee.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:22):
Um- Okay.
Why don't you tell...
I mean, let's, let's, I wanna doa quick little- Sure a little
poll.
"It's a great day of teachingwhen I hear, see, or feel my
students blank."
Chase Orton (30:32):
It, see, hear, or feel my students blank in math
class.
Okay, let- If you're not a mathteacher, any class.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:36):
Okay.
Wait- However you want letsomeone, like, share something.
Audience (30:41):
Laugh.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:43):
Laugh?
It's a great day if my studentslaugh.
I love that.
Let's hear another one.
I- Yes.
Audience (30:48):
Uh, explain something to another student.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:50):
Explain something to another student.
I agree.
That's so That's nice.
I agree.
You agree?
Okay, let's get one more.
Audience (30:59):
Collaboration.
Vanessa Vakharia (31:00):
Okay, collaborate.
When I see my studentscollaborate.
And yeah, go ahead.
Audience (31:03):
Gain confidence.
Vanessa Vakharia (31:04):
Gain confidence.
Those are beautiful things.
Chase Orton (31:07):
Uh- Vanessa, what I care about are test scores.
And my principal has said thatwe need to have a 20% increase
of our test scores- or we'regonna go on double secret
probation- with the state ofTexas, and we're gonna lose our
accreditation, and I might getfired unless I get these test
(31:28):
scores up.
So I don't have time forcollaboration.
I don't have time for laughter.
I don't have time forpeer-to-peer teaching.
I need to bring up mystandardized test scores.
That's-
Vanessa Vakharia (31:37):
I feel uncomfortable right now.
Chase Orton (31:41):
I, I'm being, I'm being devil's advocate.
So where is the middle roadbetween what I am saying and
then what you have said?
And I don't know what that pathlooks like.
I don't I, I s- I work with somany teachers that are feeling
the pressure about standardizedtest scores.
And if they don't go up, they'renot a good teacher, and they're
gonna get on the pr- principal'spoop list, and then they're on
(32:02):
notice, and then- it's teachers,like, we don't always have a lot
of power.
Like, I've been in LA Unifiedwhere a mean principal can
really screw over a teacher.
Like,"Well, we can't fire you,but we can transfer you 30 miles
down the road and make yourcommute an hour each day, each
way." And, and they do that forThey i, anyway, so I, I just, as
(32:26):
teachers, uh, we do have to lookout for ourselves and our career
and what's important.
This is my whole shtick.
We want this.
It fills us up.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:35):
Yeah.
Chase Orton (32:36):
Right?
It is a great day of teachingwhen your kids come in and
they're like,"Oh my gosh, whatare we doing today?
What do you got for us today?"
Vanessa Vakharia (32:41):
Yeah.
Chase Orton (32:42):
Right?
And we That fills us up, right?
But if they're coming in withapathy, and they're coming in
with the, a negative attitudeor, or bitterness and anger, and
they're just wanna be defiant,like, that can really erode us.
And a culture of compliance andfollowing mandates and writing
your learning objective on theboard every day and making sure
(33:04):
kids read it out loud andfollowing all these mandates and
worried about test scores and,uh, interim district assessments
and state tests, um, thaterodes.
It gets in the way of whatnourishes us, and I think that
there's real tension there.
Vanessa Vakharia (33:18):
Yeah.
Chase Orton (33:19):
And I, I just, I You can read my book.
It's, it's a subversive book.
I, I don't take it tooseriously.
You might get fired.
I don't want you to do that, butyou-
Vanessa Vakharia (33:27):
Definitely the episode title, I cannot wait.
"Listen to this episode and youmight get fired." That's such
good copy.
I hear you.
I'm hearing you.
Sure.
Okay?
I am.
I'm wondering, and this is,like, a genuine question.
This is not me, like, be-because I actually don't know.
So first of all, in Canada, wedo not have standardized
(33:49):
testing, okay?
So I'm just gonna start bysaying, oh my God, that everyone
just sighed.
Yeah.
I can marry all of you.
Like, I'm, I'm down.
Make me an offer, I can'trefuse.
Um, no.
I say that because obviously I'min a different situation here-
Sure because there isn't thatpressure.
But let's, but there is the,like, you know, just what the
(34:12):
system is designed for, let's behonest, is a sorting mechanism
to get students from point A topoint B, and right, the sorting
right now is for them tograduate high school and then to
go to college or university,whatever their thing is, right?
Like, this is the point.
Chase Orton (34:26):
Sure, or trade school or- Yeah drop out or-
Vanessa Vakharia (34:28):
a sorting thing.
I only say that to say, so letme just ask you this.
In, like, this situation whereyou're like,"I can't see how we
can do both," we're, we are in abit of a pickle because we are
all in the system.
I really believe, and I thinkyou also believe, otherwise you
wouldn't be doing this work,that there are ways to be
(34:49):
complicit in a system whilerebelling against it, right?
We are, we are all doing thingsthat are moving the needle a
bit, like, moving the dial whileacknowledging, like, they, we
are also preparing kids forwhatever they need to do.
Until we are no longer in thesystem, which is the moving a
mountain, what is the move here?
(35:09):
Because, like, if you're kindof, like, y- preparing for a
standardized test is erodingthem and it's, like, cr- which,
yes, it totally is.
What is the alternative, to,like, never prepare them for the
standardized test?
Chase Orton (35:23):
Is to get them to fall in love with mathematics,
to have math joy.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:26):
But how do they, but, but how do they,
like, literally l- learn thething on the test they have to
write?
Chase Orton (35:32):
I, I don't know if that's a question worth a-
asking and answering in my timeon this earth
Vanessa Vakharia (35:38):
Oh my God.
Chase Orton (35:38):
I recognize that other people might wanna be,"How
do we prepare kids for thistest?" I have asked I've been in
that spot figuring it out, and Ijust, I don't think it's time
well spent as a human being.
Our time here is short, and Iknow, I, I know, I, I Some Uh, I
know that there are some leadersin this room are like,"Chase,
(36:00):
you know, just, sh-"
Vanessa Vakharia (36:02):
No, but I think it's fine for you to say
because that's not your job.
Chase Orton (36:05):
Sure.
Vanessa Vakharia (36:05):
It's actually fine.
Like, you, you say whatever you-Um Like, that's like a musician
being like,"I don't b-," like,"Idon't know how to teach math."
Like, fine.
Like, that's not your actualjob.
Your job isn't preparing someonefor a test.
It's creating joy in theseclassrooms- Sure and that's what
you do well.
Chase Orton (36:17):
Sure.
Vanessa Vakharia (36:17):
And that's fine.
Chase Orton (36:18):
But I, I wanna call out So you're Canadian, yes?
Yeah.
Toronto.
Vanessa Vakharia (36:23):
Is
Chase Orton (36:23):
that what you're calling out?
Toronto-based.
No.
I'm calling out how much moneydo the taxpayers of the United
States turn over to testingagencies- that you do not as a
country.
You invest in probably hu-humans- being better teachers,
and what's going Uh, maybe,maybe I'm sure as a Canadian on
the inside you see some of theillnesses-
Vanessa Vakharia (36:44):
Well, I actually don't know.
I want you to tell me what.
I actually don't even know.
But
Chase Orton (36:47):
I don't, I don't know what the line-by-line item
is for Somebody in this roomperhaps may know, or somebody in
the district knows what Leanderis paying-
Vanessa Vakharia (36:55):
Oh my God
Chase Orton (36:55):
for- This has got to be- all of the whatevers
crazy And it's not just Leander.
It's, it's, it's all the It's,it's California.
It's, it's the LA Unified.
It's, it's You, you, your p-statement is powerful.
We don't have standardizedtesting.
That means that there isn't a b-multibillion-dollar industry
driving up profits funded bytaxpayers.
(37:16):
And I know money's tight here inLeander, and it's tight all over
Texas, and it's tight all overthe country.
but it's not tight if you'rei-Ready, right?
And, and whatever the AndPearson and their, those testing
companies.
Like, what wou- could we do withthat capital- if we didn't turn
it over to freaking numbers on ascreen, and yellow data, red
(37:41):
data, green data that tells usthe same thing that we always
know all the time, which is ourdisadvantaged populations don't
do as well as our advantagedpopulations.
And we're spending billions ofdollars just to remind ourselves
of that truth.
And this is part of thenefarious stuff that was
happening, um, with the Nationat Risk in the early'80s, which
(38:01):
got totally That research gotdistorted and changed.
And then with No Child LeftBehind and the focus on
accountability and assessmentwas really just laying a
foundation of a profit-drivenmodel around test scores.
Okay.
And I, yeah, I don't get...
I get fired up about it.
Well- I might get a, a littleuncomfortable in the seat, but-
(38:23):
I, I get really uncomfortable.
Vanessa Vakharia (38:25):
No, but this is good.
Chase Orton (38:25):
I get, I get...
My blood boils about the profit.
Yeah.
And who's it for?
It's not for us as teachers.
Test scores do not...
You, uh, Alan, you was sharing,you got your test scores back,
yeah?
And collectively they went up,right?
They're like colle- but did youget any meaningful data on an
individual student that helpsyou grow as a teacher?
(38:47):
maybe, and I would love to knowthat or not.
But I, I, test scores, theydon't nourish our passion for
the work that we do.
They don't tell us how to grow.
It's not the data that we needto be looking at, and this is
where Peter and engagement andthinking and BTC really is
helpful about shifting what arewe looking at in a classroom?
What are we, what are, what dataare we really valuing?
(39:08):
And yes, ultimately, we want ourstudents to learn more content.
We want them to solve problemsthat they couldn't solve before,
and demonstrate that theyactually learned some math this
year.
uh, w- we want that, but it'salso, we operate continually in
the street data Shane Safir,right, another Corwin author
talks about, and this human datathat I talk about.
Like, that's the world that welive in.
(39:29):
Yeah.
That's what you all cited,right?
Like, it, it's not, nobody inhere is like,"Man, I really love
it when kids are just crushingit on their i-Ready diagnostic
assessments." Like- I've neverseen it, but I've seen it up in
the faculty lounge, right?
Vanessa Vakharia (39:43):
Link to i-Ready in the show notes,
everyone.
Chase Orton (39:46):
You know?
i-Ready, well, my problem withi-Ready, and I, here goes my
opportunity to ever work forthem, and I never would.
Vanessa Vakharia (39:52):
This is on a podcast, I'm just letting you
know.
Chase Orton (39:53):
It's fine.
Okay, go.
They, they sell curriculum-
Vanessa Vakharia (39:56):
Yeah, go for it
Chase Orton (39:57):
that is crap.
Um, if you were in my animalshelter lesson, have you seen my
animal...
that is i-Ready's mathcurriculum.
And then they create curriculumthat creates, encourages bad
pedagogy, that creates mathclasses that don't work for
kids, that then gets diagnosedby their own assessment, right?
And then so it's a little bitlike big pharma creating the
(40:18):
disease and then selling us thecure, um, and profiting on both
sides.
And so i-Ready in particular I,I struggle with because they are
both assessment and, andcurriculum at the same time.
Vanessa Vakharia (40:29):
Isn't that most curriculum companies?
Or no?
Uh- We, again, we don't havecurriculum companies.
Yeah, you- And that's the otherthing.
Chase Orton (40:35):
Yeah, I know.
You, how much money do we spendon textbooks?
Vanessa Vakharia (40:39):
Yeah, it's a totally different system.
Chase Orton (40:40):
Stop, y'all.
Vanessa Vakharia (40:41):
When we use the word curriculum in Canada,
it means content.
So that's why when I'm like,"Getthrough the curriculum," I'm
like,"Eh," I mean content.
We don't have this whole system.
Oh.
You know what is funny?
That, sorry, do you wanna keepgoing?
Chase Orton (40:53):
Yeah.
I- Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (40:54):
Please do.
Chase Orton (40:54):
I mean, yeah.
Where's my soapbox?
I'll put a soapbox on a soapbox.
Um, I, I do wor- I, I, uh, I, Ihave deep friends or dear
friends that work withfor-profit companies like Savvas
and- and other organ- uh,Amplify and other organizations
that, are thinly veiledprofit-driven models toward
(41:18):
profiting off of taxpayers'money.
Vanessa Vakharia (41:19):
I don't know how thinly veiled it is
Chase Orton (41:20):
Okay.
This-
Vanessa Vakharia (41:22):
Right?
Chase Orton (41:22):
Well- Like thinly veiled means it's barely veiled.
Vanessa Vakharia (41:25):
But I feel like-
Chase Orton (41:26):
It's not veiled at all
Vanessa Vakharia (41:27):
it's not...
Oh, right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We're, we're- What you'resaying, yeah
Chase Orton (41:30):
yeah, yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (41:31):
I'm like,"It's pretty obvious." Um, and, and
Chase Orton (41:33):
I, and this, I mean, this screws me out of any
sort of cushy job with, with a-
Vanessa Vakharia (41:37):
But you don't want one anyway
Chase Orton (41:39):
No, but it's-
Vanessa Vakharia (41:40):
You're an, you're an, what did you say?
You're not, a non-compliantemployee
Chase Orton (41:43):
I'm a critic.
Yeah, yeah.
So I- Yeah yeah, it's fine I'm acritic.
And, um, it puts me at odds withsome of my friends sometimes.
and I'm very lucky to have thework that I have.
I'm very grateful for thejourney that I've been on, as
weird as it's been.
And I am blessed, so I don'twant my cynicism toward the
system we work in to beungrateful for my position.
(42:06):
It is such a privilege to workwith you all.
Vanessa Vakharia (42:08):
Um- I don't think we're reading it that way.
Okay, good.
I w- I think we're reading it asyou're passionate about w- in
your role, what you're...
We all have different strengthsthat we bring to the profession.
Okay?
Like- Yeah your strength mightnot be working in the classroom,
in compliance, but your strengthis bringing joy and showing us
moments where we can besubversive within the classrooms
(42:29):
that we're in to createsomething that is missing in
math education, and that's whatyou do very well.
I don't think you're comingacross as cynical- like, in the
way of, like,"Oh, he's justjaded and cynical." I think
you're coming across as you'revery passionate because you see
a problem that could be solved,and instead of solving it, many
stakeholders are perpetuatingit.
(42:50):
And that's what it's comingacross as to me, and I think
it's probably refreshing for usto all be able to nod and be
silent and not have our namesattached to this rant- when most
of us agree.
So you, thank you for, for beingan ally.
Chase Orton (43:03):
Sure, sure.
Vanessa Vakharia (43:03):
And you know what is really funny?
We actually, like, somehow onlyhave 10 minutes and I wanna open
up to questions.
Chase Orton (43:08):
Yeah,
Vanessa Vakharia (43:08):
yeah.
Go for it.
No, but before I do, I do haveto note this full circle.
I don't know if you guys havebeen noticing our dynamic.
We started with this, of you b-of ta- you talking about
ambiguity.
And I was like,"Yeah, yeah".
It is so clear that I'm souncomfortable with ambiguity,
'cause I keep trying to find aresolution, and being like- No,
no"But can you just tell them,like- There's no way couldn't we
(43:28):
just..." And you keep beinglike- No"No.
There is no- there is nosolution." And I'm like,"You're
not, we need to wrap this up ina bow.
We've gotta give them somethingto walk away with.
We have to give them somethinghopeful." And you're kind of
sitting in it, being like,"Today, as of the recording of
this podcast, there is nosolution." And I think, like,
I'm learning my lesson of beinglike,"Wow," like, my need to,
(43:49):
my, like, fawn response and needto just have everyone being
happy and to have everythinggood sometimes does get in the
way of me being like,"Nope, westill have a problem, and we
still need to work on it." So Ifeel kind of like I'm being a
bit served here.
Chase Orton (44:04):
Uh, okay.
You're...
I, I mean, I...
turning it over to the crowd.
I, I would...
Just my last thing, becoming theteacher you wanna be, you can't
do it alone.
Uh, and we do not have theculture of professionalism.
We do not have the tenaciouscommunity of support, the
trustworthy relationships weneed to, to help each other
(44:26):
grow.
But the best professionaldevelopment is happening in the
classroom right next to you, andit doesn't have to be a same
grade level teacher.
It doesn't even have to be amath teacher.
But just going, watching ateacher do their thing in class,
and struggle, and toil, and, andthrive, and have success, I...
It's the best use of ourprofessional pupil-free time is
(44:48):
just watching math class from...
or math class or class ingeneral from the student
perspective.
And I don't...
I've just learned that we asteachers, when we have that,
help me see what I can't see formyself, right?
Like, if we had worked togetherfor five years, you would
pretty...
be pretty clear about my blind,blind spots, right?
And I yours.
(45:08):
Right?
And helping each other see whatwe can't see for ourselves.
Vanessa Vakharia (45:11):
Yeah.
Chase Orton (45:12):
So I, I give each other grace.
Find the people that are gonnahelp you thrive.
We are all imperfect.
And just remembering that ashowever you make your meaning as
a teacher, um, that you supporteach other, and, and you love
each other, and you help eachother grow and thrive.
And, it's on us.
Like, I, I...
(45:32):
There is no them that are gonnacome save us as teachers.
It's on us to really supporteach other and lift each other
up, and that's all I'm gonna sayon that.
Uh, I'm gonna turn it over toyou.
Questions, turn to talks,whatever you wanna, yada, yada,
(45:53):
yada.
Pear Square.
Oh.
Vanessa Vakharia (45:54):
What are we doing?
What are we doing?
What are we doing?
Thank you so much.
Okay.
Beautiful.
Okay, this is, this is...
Okay, let's, let's conclude.
First of all, that was so fun.
Chase Orton (46:06):
Yeah, it was a good time.
Vanessa Vakharia (46:07):
I honestly think, for the districts, if
you're watching this and you'relike,"What are we doing with our
lives?" You are doing somethinggroundbreaking.
You are.
Okay?
'Cause this is the first timewe've done a session like this,
and just because somebody'ssaying it out loud doesn't mean
no one was already thinking it.
Okay?
So, like, let's just clear, havethat there.
Chase Orton (46:23):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (46:24):
You're so great.
You're so- You all are greatuncomfortable right now.
Uh, yay.
Like, do you wanna get up andstretch?
Okay, here's what we're gonnado.
We are gonna end this recording,okay?
Thank you guys so much for beinghere.
Let's do an applause for therecording.
Whoo.
(46:46):
Guys, oh my God, our first everlive applause.
How insane is that?
And I didn't even, like, hold upone of those signs instructing
the audience to, like, applaudnow.
But oh my God, that's a greatidea for next time now that I've
thought about it.
This interview really left mefeeling the weight of what all
educators are feeling right now.
I heard it not only from Chase,but from over 50 of you that
(47:06):
were in the room, and it left mewondering, what do we do with,
like, the intense, unrelenting,and totally warranted anger we
feel at the system we're all in,a system that often makes it so,
so hard to be the teachers wewere born to be?
I wanna hear from you.
How do you cope?
How do you thrive?
How do you flourish when thatfrustration, sadness, and anger
(47:27):
is present?
Text the podcast by hitting theText Us link in your show notes
or DM me on Instagram.
My handle is@themathguru.
And if you have any thoughts onhow I can make the next Math
Therapy Live episode evenbetter, because there will be
more, text me your thoughts aswell.
And guys, thank you all forbeing along for this wild ride.
We've got big things coming thisyear, including a giveaway for
(47:49):
the new Texas Instruments EVOcalculator, which will happen in
one of the next two episodesthis month.
So follow, subscribe, and tunein every week, and thank you for
being here.
Guys, oh my God, I cannot believe I'm about
to say this, but welcome to ourfirst ever live off the floor
Math Therapy podcast episode.
That's right, I have manifestedmy becoming a less creepy Dr.
Phil and a half as cool Oprahdreams by low-key turning this
podcast into a talk show.
So last week, I presented atLeander ISD's annual Math Joy
(00:25):
Conference, and I turned one ofmy sessions into an interview in
front of a live studio audience,and it was the coolest thing
ever.
Now, did I almost blow up mylaptop attempting to get sound
directly from the speaker intomy MacBook?
Yes.
Did I then almost have a mildpanic attack?
Also yes.
Did I then get the incredibleaudience to lend me three of
(00:46):
their phones so I could recordvoice memos from different
angles in an attempt to getaudio that David wouldn't kill
me over?
Yes, yes, and yes.
And did it work?
Heck yes, it did.
The thing is, I'm kind of gladthis interview was live because
it was low-key jaw-dropping atpoints, and it was kind of cool
to see, like, listeners' jawsdrop in real time Now, why was
(01:06):
it jaw-dropping, you ask?
Well, because I interviewed theone and only Chase Orton, author
of The Imperfect and UnfinishedMath Teacher, king disruptor of
the math ed world.
If you've ever felt like you'reso bound by curriculum
companies, standardized testing,and systemic obstacles that
you're burning out and burningup by the second, this episode
is for you.
In this totally raw andunfiltered interview, Chase does
(01:29):
not hold back on his belief thatthe past 40 years of top-down PD
efforts in math have rarelysupplied teachers with what they
need to equitably grow theirpractice, and he shares the one
thing he believes we all need todo right now to truly flourish
in this profession.
he also does not hold back onsharing his views on how a
(01:50):
particular curriculum company iscompletely destroying education.
You'll see.
The tea is hot.
So buckle up and welcome to thefirst ever Math Therapy Live
talk show.
I'm so happy you're here.
Okay, this is actually veryexciting,'cause we have...
Are you nervous?
Chase Orton (02:08):
No, I'm focused.
I am- grounding myself,pretending that there aren't 55
eyes out there, 56 eyes,probably, an even number-
looking at me, and I'm just...
Yeah, I'm ready.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:20):
Okay.
Well, I am very excited.
So this has been a dream of mineforever.
If you guys don't know, I have apodcast called Ma- hi, guys.
Okay, that's gonna be in therecording.
This is gonna sound so real.
I'm wearing too many jinglythings.
Okay, So I have a podcast calledMath Therapy.
And it is my dream to have aNetflix show.
This isn't about me.
This is gonna be about Chase.
but the point is, it's alwaysbeen my dream to have a Netflix
(02:40):
show, and I wanna have, like, astyle of a show where we have
these real conversations.
And as Peter Liljedahl alwayssays,"The smartest person in the
room is the room," right?
There are so many people whohave s- who know so many things.
So I thought it'd be really coolto do, like, a fireside chat.
We are recording this.
(03:00):
We don't know if it's gonnawork, but maybe it's gonna be a
podcast, and you guys are gonnabe our first live audience ever.
Woo.
So, okay, so we're gonna chat.
I'm gonna ask you somequestions, and I'm gonna save 10
minutes for Q&A,'cause I thinkthat would be cool, too, and I
feel like that's whatprofessional people do.
Chase Orton (03:18):
Great.
Can I add on to your Netflixidea?
Vanessa Vakharia (03:20):
Please do.
Chase Orton (03:20):
Yeah.
I want to have a segment on thatof math class in America where
remember John Oliver back whenhe was on the- Oh, yeah John
Stewart Show, right, and he wasa side piece?
And I would just like to gotravel around rural America and
teach math class with people andget their story and hear about
their experiences.
(03:41):
So I've driven all over thiscountry, and I've been to really
small towns, and I drive throughand I'm like,"Man, that was just
a school.
Somebody is teaching math thereevery day.
How are they doing?
Who are they?
What's their story?" I don'tknow if it'll be a full Netflix
show, but if you can get theNetflix show and I could just
ride your coattails- I love-That'd be great.
That'd be great.
That'd be great
Vanessa Vakharia (04:00):
I do love this, and you know what?
I will say, I actually had ameeting with Netflix in 2020.
I did.
Chase Orton (04:06):
Oh, okay.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:06):
I did.
I did.
I actually had a meeting withthem, and I pitched them Math
Therapy, but it was more of,like, the format of Queer Eye
for the Straight Guy, if youguys have seen that.
It's like somebody shows up tosomeone's house and gives them a
makeover with their mathidentity.
Sure.
Sure.
They, they literally said to me,"If the word math is in the
title, no one will watch it."
Audience (04:23):
Oh.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:25):
Oh, my God, that was like a studio audience
noise right there.
Anyways, my point is, I likethis.
I, I really like this idea, andguys, look at how many of us are
in here.
I think we can manifest this,and it starts today.
It's starting right now withChase Orton.
Chase Orton (04:38):
Sure.
I love it.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:39):
Welcome to the podcast.
Chase Orton (04:40):
Thanks for having me.
It's been a while.
I'm glad I'm here.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:44):
I'd like to start where things began today
when we ran into each otherhere, probably meeting for only
the second or third time, and Isaid to Chase,"I think we are
polar opposites." And Chasesaid,"I disagree with that." I'd
like you to tell the audiencewhy you disagreed with that,
because I actually think it tiesinto your philosophy as an
(05:05):
educator.
Chase Orton (05:06):
Sure.
Okay.
Uh, I think there are, asteachers, there are people that,
teachers that are willing to,uh, mess around and find out,
right?
Like, to try out a lesson, torisk, to fail, to flop first
period, revise the secondperiod, and we're pretty
comfortable with uncertainty andpublic failure in front of our
(05:27):
students.
And perhaps sometimes we don'talways think things through.
Maybe we jump, dri- dive inbefore really seeing if there's
water in the pool.
Um, and I think maybe there aresome teachers that are really
disciplined and superstructured- and super ordered,
and they've got all thepedagogic moves down, and they
can choreograph 30 squirrelykids into something that
(05:48):
resembles cohesive, like,thinking and talking and, and,
um, uh, so I think that thereare two types of those teachers,
and I think we're both kind ofthe chaos-driven teachers of
just- Let's, we got, I, I don'tknow what's gonna happen, but we
can talk about it forever, or wecould just teach first period
and have an experience.
I see that.
Yeah, yeah.
So-
Vanessa Vakharia (06:07):
Chaos-driven teachers.
I actually love that term, andI'm curious who here would
relate to that.
Who here feels like achaos-driven teacher?
Some of us.
And who is like,"That's my worstnightmare"?
Actually.
So we see who all the Virgos arenow.
Okay, that's very clear.
And
Chase Orton (06:23):
I, I think it's our relationship with ambiguity.
And so much about teaching is,like, we just don't know.
Like, it's, it's such a hardjob.
Um, um, and the judgment callswe have to make.
But it requires, I think, a lotof comfort in ambiguity.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:39):
So I'd like to actually know, like, we're here
at a forum for math joy, andthis is a podcast about math
anxiety and trauma that, notjust on the side of students,
but teachers as well.
I'm curious how somebody'scomfort or discomfort with
ambiguity- might actually cometo play and intersect with an
anxiety they have around math.
(07:01):
Like, do you think there's arelationship between the two?
Chase Orton (07:04):
I think that ambiguity is not as celebrated
and encouraged in a mathclassroom.
Like, we gotta get to the rightanswer, and it's either, the
final answer is either right orwrong, and we don't let that
uncertainty hang enough.
I think, um, Dan Meyer talksabout we're always in a rush to
reach resolution rather thanhanging with- with a unsolved
(07:28):
problem or unresolved problem bythe end of class and, and
picking it up moving forward.
So, um, yeah, I think for somestudents or learners in a
classroom, if they don'timmediately know the answer,
they might think that they'rebad at math.
And then therefore, if they are,are feeling ambiguity, they
(07:49):
might start to think they're nota math person, even though I
think that's where it's thatdelicious ambiguity that math
joy kind of exists.
Vanessa Vakharia (07:58):
I really love that, and I can imagine for many
educators who maybe don't feelso great at math or feel anxious
around math- that the more thatambiguity settles, you're like,
"Oh my God, I can't get to theanswer," like, da, da, da, da,
da, da, da, and all of a suddenthat actually puts us into a
trauma response.
Like, all of a sudden that canlead to freeze.
Right?
Because often the ambiguity whenyou're kind of like,"I don't
(08:19):
know how to do something," ifit's not celebrated, that
becomes a scary feeling, andthen all of a sudden we get
triggered, and so we shut down.
How do you move by, past that?
Chase Orton (08:30):
Uh, I hear you talking and I'm always thinking
about the teachers and theirpractice, right, and their
ambiguity, and, and not justpresenting a problem that may
not, we may not get an answer totoday.
For me, and the title of thisworkshop is about how do we fall
in love with our job again- asteachers, right?
And, and I think for us, we'vebeen told, I guess, this myth
(08:53):
that as teachers, we need tohave all the answers- Yeah and
be the answer key, and we'renot.
Like, it, it, it takes a lot ofcourage to lean into that
discomfort.
Lean into, not just theambiguity and the mathematics,
but the ambiguity of how do Idesign a single learning
experience for 28 kids that areall in different places?
(09:14):
And I've been in some amazingclassrooms this year, right?
Yeah.
Of wildly different students,right?
And last year at Danielson,right, like, and just period to
period and the vibe in the room,as a teacher, I, I think for us
is it's about embracing thatambiguity.
And so I think m- maybe I'm withthe therapy for teachers, you
(09:35):
know, like ch- Yeah what is it?
Soup, uh, Chicken Noodle Soupfor the Teaching Soul, right?
Like I-
Vanessa Vakharia (09:40):
That is a real throwback.
I, it is, it is.
Chase Orton (09:42):
That was the whole thing, right?
Yeah.
Um, and, and so I think you'rereally looking at the identity
and agency of adults and youngpeople- Yeah in the math
classroom.
And, I am looking at teacherswho are burnt out dealing with
the, the BS of standardizedtesting and pacing plans and
yuck, that stuff.
And so how do we re- maintainour resilience and our love for
(10:06):
teaching?
Um, and I, I, I believe that alot of us are really different.
Some of us, like me, arecomfortable with ambiguity.
Some other people need to havemore order and structure, and we
both learn from each other bywatching lessons, I, I, I think
from Danielson, right?
That you are There was somereally good learning out of
there in ways that I needed morestructure and more thinking
(10:27):
things through, and learning togrow in that way, that structure
is important.
Having a vision and a plan isreally important.
And it's not just about, like,cool task, let's dive in and see
what happens.
And by third period, it's gonnabe pretty good, right?
Vanessa Vakharia (10:40):
Well, I mean, what I'm thinking too is, fine,
we have this spectrum ofambiguity versus, like,
organization or, like, chaosversus not, but let's go back to
this idea of burnout because,like just looking around the
room, there was a l- a lot offolks nodding and being like,
"Yeah, we feel pretty burntout." And I wonder if when we
have this set outcome and thisthing we're like, you know, what
(11:02):
did Jenny Bay Williams just say?
Nobody likes to be should on,right?
When we have this thing that weshould and we're supposed to be
doing, is it the striving forthat that leads to burnout?
Just like when a student has amath problem with a solution
they're supposed to be getting,feeling like they're not getting
there, like feeling like you'renot getting the outcome, is that
(11:22):
the catalyst for burnout?
And is there a way- that if welet go of the outcome-
Chase Orton (11:28):
Sure
Vanessa Vakharia (11:29):
like what Do you guys feel- Sure like that is
a catalyst for burnout, beinglike,"I'm not getting to where
I'm supposed to be"?
They're all going,"Yeah, yeah,yeah, yeah." Yeah, uh- Okay,
just for the recording.
Make sure.
I,
Chase Orton (11:41):
I mean, I, I've been there as a teacher where
you're like,"All right, I've gotthis task.
It's gonna go like this." Andthen the kids just wanna take it
a different direction.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:49):
Okay.
Chase Orton (11:49):
And I, I don't know if we...
Have we been there as, as ateacher?
Like, you're like,"Do I just tryto bring the herd back to where
I want them to go, or do I justkinda be like,'All right, herd,
where are we going?'" And followtheir curiosity.
And I, I think that there was,this makes me a bad teacher
based on today's norms, but Ihad to let go of the
(12:10):
expectations that I wantedstudents to get and honor that
they were gonna make their ownmeaning.
And sometimes that meaning wasmore important, more brilliant,
more inspiring for me thanreaching my intended learning
target that could probably waittill tomorrow.
And so I think, for me as ateacher, it was, like, really
just trying to create anopportunity to, to get kids
(12:30):
curious and interested, but Ihad to let go of my vision of
what success looked like.
Because then I get mad, and thenwe are...
I, I don't know about you, but Ihave an inner child as a teacher
that gets kind of mad andgrumpy, and then two or three
days of kids getting under myskin, and now I'm, like,
short-tempered with students.
I don't know if you ever getshort-tempered- with your
(12:51):
students, but-
Vanessa Vakharia (12:52):
They're all saying,"No, me, never, Chase."
Chase Orton (12:53):
Um, you know, but they're...
And I talk about this in mybook.
Like, there were times when Iwould not scream, but I would
have my big, big voice of like-"Why am I the hardest person
working in the room right now?
Where are you?
Why aren't you here?" And it'seasy to find myself blaming
kids, and that's not nourishingmy passion, right?
That might be causing mathtrauma for them.
Vanessa Vakharia (13:15):
That just also looked like you, your blood
pressure just shot up- Oh, yeaheven in that reenactment.
Like, it's so...
But, like, truly, like, right?
Because part of what we don'ttalk about with burnout is our
nervous system.
Yeah.
And how, like, literally beingin the state of escalation, and,
like, us, ourse- Are you okay?
Chase Orton (13:31):
Yeah, yeah.
No, I'm- Yes.
I was just thinking back to thattime I was in a...
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I get emotional.
Vanessa Vakharia (13:36):
Right?
Like, you're just like, oh myGod, you're constantly on edge.
So I wanna...
I really like this idea of...
Because, you know, there's somuch in basically every single
text, whether you're a spiritualperson or not, or what- whatever
your brand of spirituality is,even if it's nothing, and even
it's just hard science, thatactually what leads to suffering
(13:56):
the most is resistance.
Right?
It's resisting the flow.
So when we're like,"It's coldoutside," and you're like,"I
wish it was hot," like, that'scausing way more s- more
suffering than you just beinglike,"It's cold and it sucks,"
right?
Like, it's just, it's that innerresistance.
And for our nervous systems aswell, it's resistance.
It's being like,"I don't wantthings to be this way," as
opposed to being likeacceptance, right?
(14:17):
We have resistance versusacceptance.
And you're talking about that,you know, like, to go from where
we started here, which wasambiguity, you're kinda going
from when we accept that wedon't know the answer, when we
accept that the lesson is takingthis direction, and we stop
resisting it, not only doeslearning happen, but we
physically, emotionally,cognitively feel better, right?
(14:38):
'Cause we're no longer fighting.
We're no longer fighting.
But my, my question always is,and I would really like for you
to talk us through this, as thisis your specialty- Okay is talk
to the teacher in the room who'slike,"I love that.
I wanna be de-escalated.
I wanna be chill vibes.
I want to follow the chaos, butI also need to meet these
targets.
I also need them to learn thisthing.
(15:00):
What...
How do we do it?"
Chase Orton (15:02):
Uh, I don't want anybody in the room to get
fired.
Um- Sure.
Good start.
But sometimes to be, to be theteacher you need, your students
need you to be means that maybeyou're a non-cooperative
employee.
Um, and I know that that is alittle bit risky to say, but I
think that there are a lot ofthings that we are asked to do
(15:25):
as teachers that aren't aboutgood teaching and aren't
necessarily good for us or ourstudents.
And the resistance, to me,becomes how can I be compliant
to get leadership off my back ina way that minimizes my effort
so I can create the time- tocreate classrooms where kids
wanna be there.
(15:46):
Um, and there were times that Ijust was a non-compliant
employee.
I'm like,"Sorry, principal, I'mjust not gonna do that." And it
puts me at odds.
Like, I, again, I don't want anyof you to get fired.
Like, you have mortgages andkids and families, and I live
out of a box truck and don'thave kids.
And so there's-
Vanessa Vakharia (16:05):
A lot to unpack here.
Chase Orton (16:06):
There's a lot to unpack.
Um, but I, I, I, I, I know that-
Vanessa Vakharia (16:12):
But I feel you.
This is- Yeah like, I mean, thisis our similarity probably,
where we're like, the red tapemakes us both cray cray.
Chase Orton (16:19):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:19):
Right?
Yeah.
So I get it.
But, but realistically- Sure Ifeel being a non-compliant
employee might be...
Is there a middle ground?
Right?
Because, because I hear whatyou're saying, and also, I think
there probably is, right?
There are...
'cause I think we have to holdtwo truths, which is we want
kids to enjoy math.
We want to follow the flow.
We want to have room for theselearning experiences.
(16:40):
We don't wanna be so rigid, butwe do...
There are, like, they need to,like, learn certain things, for
example.
Because you know what?
Compliant or not, we don't wannasend them to the next grade
teacher not knowing the thingsthat they're supposed to know.
That's not just, we don't wannado that as peoples.
And then is there a way to doboth?
Like, is there a way to followthe flow of the whatever your
lesson is going to and somehowbring them back?
(17:01):
Like, what's the vibe?
Chase Orton (17:02):
The inclusive response is to try to say that
maybe there's a middle way, andI think everybody in this room
is figuring that out.
I want to be a little bit moresubversive and just say no.
Like, I, I...
you need to learn this for nextyear's math class is not a valid
argument that is gonna winstudents over.
(17:24):
And I, I invite us to push backon that and to really think
about, is, is it worth spendingeight weeks in Algebra 1 doing
quadratic- is that a what wellyou, well wor- a worthwhile use
of our time as, as adults and,and what we're asking students
to think about but you gottateach it, but I'm also
(17:47):
wondering, like, is it worth it?
And- what can be the otherthings that don't cause math
trauma that are more interestingand more invigorating for us to
teach as teachers?
And I know that I'm a little biton the fringe, on the outsider
of this.
Um, and I'm blessed for the workthat I have to be able to work
with amazing teachers in anamazing system like Leander, and
(18:10):
I've been this is my wrapping up20 days here- Yeah and I've got
eight more next year.
Bring me to your site.
I hope we get to keep teachingtogether.
And it's been, like, familiarfaces are a precious thing, and
so I'm deeply grateful for thefamiliar faces that I see in
this room from my workshops, butalso from teaching together.
and I would like to keep thatgoing, and I, I enjoy the
(18:32):
community, but I also get to bea critic.
Vanessa Vakharia (18:35):
Yeah, I think that's maybe the, the role.
Like, maybe I'm asking even thewrong question because that's
the whole thing is you, andprobably me too, hence why I
don't teach in a classroom,would be like,"I can't, I- I
don't wanna say I can't, but I'mlike, you're kind of like,"Well,
I don't want to." Like, that'smy- Yeah.
We all have our lines, right, ofthings where we're like, where
we, this is where we're willingto cross the line, this is where
(18:55):
we're not.
And that is why we have amazingteachers that are not us
actually teaching math, right?
Because you, they're, they'reable to be like,"Okay, I can
actually see the middle path,"and maybe that's it.
I think sometimes, too, forthings to change, you do hear
something polarizing, like,coming from you, where you're
like,"Well, here's what I woulddo.
(19:17):
I would every single day let thelesson take me wherever it
wanted to go." And maybesomeone's listening and is like,
"Cool.
Like, that's too much for me.""But maybe I could do that,
like, 5% of the time." Sure.
"And maybe that would move thedial."
Audience (19:30):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (19:31):
I mean, I think it's kind of unreasonable
that every single person justthrow it all to the wind, given
the system that, like, there isa system
Chase Orton (19:38):
Yeah.
Uh, I don't think I, I And I'mcoming at this from a high
school perspective.
Sure.
But, like, there's so much crapin the high school standards-
Yeah that is just, it's likewe're guaranteeing the kids are
leaving high school with anegative opinion about math.
In part because the content thatwe're forced to teach.
And I, I would invite teachersto push back on that, but now we
(20:00):
need to substitute it withmathematic tasks that are worth
thinking about, that areinteresting.
And this is where I like Peter'snon-curricular tasks, right?
Interesting puzzles and problemsthat, that promote sense-making
and perseverance and, and, butthey're not neatly aligned to
the standards.
They're aligned to the standardsfor mathematical practice or
your TEKs.
(20:21):
What do you call them here?
TEKs.
TEKs, right.
But not the content TEKs.
The process.
The pro- The process proc-process.
That's what you call them?
Okay.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:27):
Give me an ex- Okay I feel like an outsider.
Chase Orton (20:29):
Uh- I literally am, but like- I-
Audience (20:31):
It's the how.
Chase Orton (20:32):
It's the Right.
So in-
Vanessa Vakharia (20:33):
Give me one example.
Chase Orton (20:34):
Well, in the, the Common Core, I don't know if Big
Brother heard me say that phrasehere on The Great State of
Texas.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:40):
It is a podcast.
Chase Orton (20:40):
But I would imagine that in the process standards,
there is something aboutperseverance, making sense of
problems and persevering andsolving.
That we will, uh, critiqueargument, construct arguments,
and critique the reasoning ofothers.
We will pay attention toprecision, and value that.
We'll look for structure and howcan we use repeated reasoning.
And it doesn't matter if you'rea Common Core state or not,
(21:02):
every state, Florida's got theseven best.
Um, you've got your TEKs processstandards.
Common Core has their standardsfor mathematical practice.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:09):
There's like a version of it everywhere.
And the- I get it
Chase Orton (21:11):
it is your how, and it's 50% of what we do, right?
And, and, but all we s- talkabout is our content and test
scores and exit tickets anddata, data, data that-
Vanessa Vakharia (21:23):
You're stressing people out.
I can see people going into a-Ah state right now.
Right?
And like- I feel we need topause and do some breathing for
you.
I,
Chase Orton (21:31):
I, I mean, I, I really, I'm worried about our
profession.
I only made it 12 years as ateacher.
Uh, we can get down to the roadwhy I chose to leave the
classroom.
Yes.
Um- We will.
Okay.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Maybe, maybe interview two.
Um, we'll see.
But I will say that I didn'tknow how to be the teacher I
wanted to be without burning mycandle at both ends.
(21:52):
And so I didn't know how- To doit, and, and I never went into
math teaching because I lovedmath.
I liked school and the problemof building community and
motivating people to be curiousand empower each other.
I just was okay at high schoolmath, and then that was some job
(22:12):
s- security.
Like, it was a lot easier to geta math teaching position than an
English teaching position, whichis what my degree was in.
and I just It wasn't about themath.
It was about the problem of howdo I get people to feel
empowered and support- eachother.
And, so for me, I come at it ata very different angle.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:30):
Okay.
Great math- Um- Great math pun,though, that you just threw in
there.
I know.
Yeah, sure.
Mr.
English.
Okay.
Chase Orton (22:35):
It was totally, totally accidental.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:36):
Hold on.
I gotta say a couple things.
Okay.
'Cause I actually think this isso touching.
There's a few things you saidthat I'm like,"Let's not
actually gloss over thesethings." First of all, you two
Well, y- I feel Although ourwhole podcast is us discovering
how not that different we are,because I was telling the last
group I just did a talk with, Imean, for me, I I'm a math
teacher because math is whatgave me my wings to realize what
(22:59):
I was capable of, because Ifailed it so much and was told I
couldn't do it.
Sure.
And when I busted through it, Iwas like,"Wow, this is a
beautiful gateway." I do lovemath.
Yeah.
But I became a math teacher toshow kids exactly what you're
talking about, is I wanted toshow them empowerment- through
beating the odds, throughproblem-solving, through
discovering what's possible.
(23:19):
But I wanna go back a stepfurther to what you just said
about the TEKS or the practicesor non-curricular.
'Cause I actually think you'renot giving yourself enough
credit, you're saying, you know,the non-curricular tasks and I
just didn't know how to do it,and like this and that, and like
whatever, screw the curriculum.
You didn't say...
These are not your words.
But- what I, I actually callthese, what you guys are calling
TEKS, and practices, andstandards, I call math adjacent
(23:41):
practices.
Which is any sort of skill thatis also useful in math class,
problem-solving, perseverance,like grit, productive struggle,
um, perspective, creativity, anyof those skills.
Because I actually think thatwhen we teach those skills in a
math class, we are...
You know when people are like,"But you need math for real
life." I'm always like,"You needthose skills for real life."
(24:02):
Yeah.
Right?
Like, those are the skills.
But the thing is, when you teacha non-curricular task, or
something non-curricular, or youlet your lesson go a bit off the
rails, but you are stilllearning all of those things and
teaching all of those k- things.
Those are a p- not onlyapplicable when it comes to
something more curricular orcontent driven.
So now they take, like,"Oh, Itook a risk.
(24:24):
Oh, I thought creatively.
Oh, I problem solved, and nowwe're learning quadrat- we're
literally learning the quadraticalgorithm, and I can use those,
so it is useful." I actuallythink it does something more,
which I think it shows kidsthere are these moments of joy.
There are moments of joy in thisclassroom and I belong here.
Now, when I have to do somethingthat's boring, I am more likely
(24:46):
to feel like I can do it- andthat I want to do it.
And I say this because thinkabout going to the gym.
Or do you work out?
Sorry, that's personal.
Chase Orton (24:53):
No,
Vanessa Vakharia (24:53):
no.
Do you like...
You don't know?
Or like, like, okay, fine, youdrive around, right, in your
van?
Chase Orton (25:02):
Sure, sure.
Do you...
Okay, right?
It's a truck, but yes.
Sorry, I'm so sorry.
It is a truck.
Vanessa Vakharia (25:07):
Sorry.
Uh, yeah, I, I- Okay, you, butyou like to drive, right?
Chase Orton (25:09):
I'm
Vanessa Vakharia (25:09):
an adult, so.
You like to drive.
Chase Orton (25:10):
I
Vanessa Vakharia (25:10):
do like road trips, yes.
But aren't there parts on roadtrips that suck?
Like a really boring-
Chase Orton (25:14):
Yeah, Kansas is pretty bad.
West Texas is, you know, like-
Vanessa Vakharia (25:19):
I don't got the joke.
What's in Kansas?
Chase Orton (25:22):
Nothing.
Oh.
Okay.
It's the same thing.
Okay.
It's like whenever you findyourself near Lubbock, Texas,
like you're just- I mean, nooffense to Lubbock.
It's just- But it's, it's...
West Texas is, is also-
Vanessa Vakharia (25:34):
A bit bland.
Chase Orton (25:35):
Bit bland.
Vanessa Vakharia (25:36):
Okay, so guys, though, but stay with my analogy
here.
If- Yeah you like dr-...
There's lots of great partsabout a road trip, and there's a
lot of parts that kinda suck.
But it makes that Kansas orwhatever you guys are saying it
makes Kansas more bearal-bearable because you're like,
"I'm gonna get through Kansas.
I've gotta get there, to getfrom point A to point B, and
then I'll be in..." I do notknow the geography of this
country.
(25:56):
"Then I'll be in this coolerplace where there's stuff to
look at." I see what's happeningin math class when you do what
you're suggesting the same way.
Like, sometimes the lesson getsoff the rails.
Sometimes we do somethingnon-curricular and you discover
this cool thing about yourselfor about math.
Now, when you have to do thething that's boring, you're more
likely to be like,"All right,fine.
This is just a part of thething." But the overall thing
doesn't suck.
(26:17):
Okay, I think I brought it homeon that metaphor.
What are we thinking?
Okay.
Well, that took a lot.
So- Thank you.
Thank you.
Chase Orton (26:24):
So you're saying, like, to build some joy to, to,
to carry us through the drytimes of math class.
Vanessa Vakharia (26:30):
Yes.
And I, and- Sure what I'm sayingis you...
Like, be- because the way you'retalking about it is you're like,
"Whatever, that's the only way Ican do it," is like,"I be
non-compliant.
I don't know how to find themiddle way." But I think this is
the middle way, is to be like,like Brian Buchalter, I remember
hearing him speak once, and hesays,"If you can't move a
mountain, move a stone." Yes.
If you can't change the entiresystem, move a stone.
(26:50):
And every time you create thesemoments of joy, like you're
suggesting, you're moving astone, and it makes a
difference.
And w- fine, maybe we didn'tredo the whole system.
We didn't scrap the whole, allthe content.
Yeah.
But, like, you're doingsomething.
And I think it, I Like, yes, I'mtalking about the student, but I
think for you as a teacher, youalso are like,"All right, some
days I can just have fun and dowhatever.
Some days I've got to drivethrough Kansas."
Chase Orton (27:12):
Yeah.
I, I, I don't know how manydifferent states we can offend
people from right now.
So I need, I need to owe thecitizens of Lubbock, Texas, and
also Kansas, Nebraska, and um-those states an apology, but,
uh, forgive me.
Um-
Vanessa Vakharia (27:28):
But, like, you know what I mean.
Chase Orton (27:29):
Yeah.
Yes, and I, I-
Vanessa Vakharia (27:32):
Or no, you don't agree
Chase Orton (27:34):
I invite us to think about the times in our
calendar that we really cancontrol.
My favorite time is afterstandardized testing, right?
Okay, great.
So I've got...
And we did it early in myschool, like end of April, and
so I've got May, I've got sixweeks.
I'm gonna make that thejuiciest, wonderful math
experience.
I'm going to pull out my besttasks.
(27:55):
I've got seniors who are sodamaged with their math therapy
that this is my last chance thatI can change their inflection.
And I wanna teach what I wannateach.
I wanna teach about differentways that we can count votes,
and voting systems, and themathematics of democracy, and
thinking about that richness.
And how do we organize, likethinking about Euler paths and
(28:15):
Euler circuits and graph theory,and stuff that removes algebra
as the obstacle, and we're inthese discrete mathematics kind
of topics.
Uh, so I invite, like for us asteachers, we've got, you know,
the pacing plan.
I know you all.
You know exactly what you'reteaching on April 17th next
year.
10 years.
Right?
Yeah.
It is.
Really?
And you're always on it.
(28:35):
Like, you, and I need tocelebrate you, but I'm also a
little alarmed because you're soon accurate.
You're so accurate Like, and I'mlike, does, does, does it ever
not go according to plan?
And like maybe get a little bitbehind.
But, um-
Vanessa Vakharia (28:52):
You all- He has no earth in his top three in
his birth chart, just so youknow.
Ah.
It's all water and fire signs.
Chase Orton (28:58):
We're going down.
Vanessa Vakharia (28:59):
This is, this is explaining a lot, I think.
Zero earth elements.
Chase Orton (29:03):
Ungrounded.
Vanessa Vakharia (29:04):
Okay, keep going though.
Chase Orton (29:05):
Um, and so I just invite us to think about the
times in our schedule, and tothink about our, our legacy as
teachers.
We, we are not gonna beremembered for our test scores.
We are not gonna be rememberedlike,"I'm so glad that I had
Mrs.
So-and-so, and she prepared mefor factoring fourth degree
polynomials by teaching me howto factor second degree
(29:26):
polynomials.
And I'm really grateful for theexperience." And, uh, you know,
I, I...
we remembered about, this ispart of your book, like
unfortunately we're rememberedfor the need for math therapy,
right?
And the trauma we have caused.
And I, I really want us to getgrounded in, in our purpose as,
as teachers and why we do thiswork.
And, and, um, I begin with thatprompt that's over there on the
(29:49):
board.
If you've been to my worksheets,worksheets.
Workshops.
Uh, it is,"It's a great day ofteaching when I see, hear, or
feel my students blank in mathclass." And so I ask teachers
that all the time.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:00):
Should we do it right now?
Chase Orton (30:01):
Uh, well, w- we- Now.
I, sure.
I don't know.
It's your show.
It's your show.
We got 27 minutes.
I don't know how the audience isdoing.
My butt's getting a little numband-
Vanessa Vakharia (30:11):
Oh my God.
Chase Orton (30:12):
Uh, so I don't know how they're doing out there.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:15):
You're such a high maintenance guest.
Chase Orton (30:16):
Do we need...
All right.
All right.
I, I, I mean, I'm just sippingmy coffee.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:22):
Um- Okay.
Why don't you tell...
I mean, let's, let's, I wanna doa quick little- Sure a little
poll.
"It's a great day of teachingwhen I hear, see, or feel my
students blank."
Chase Orton (30:32):
It, see, hear, or feel my students blank in math
class.
Okay, let- If you're not a mathteacher, any class.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:36):
Okay.
Wait- However you want letsomeone, like, share something.
Audience (30:41):
Laugh.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:43):
Laugh?
It's a great day if my studentslaugh.
I love that.
Let's hear another one.
I- Yes.
Audience (30:48):
Uh, explain something to another student.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:50):
Explain something to another student.
I agree.
That's so That's nice.
I agree.
You agree?
Okay, let's get one more.
Audience (30:59):
Collaboration.
Vanessa Vakharia (31:00):
Okay, collaborate.
When I see my studentscollaborate.
And yeah, go ahead.
Audience (31:03):
Gain confidence.
Vanessa Vakharia (31:04):
Gain confidence.
Those are beautiful things.
Chase Orton (31:07):
Uh- Vanessa, what I care about are test scores.
And my principal has said thatwe need to have a 20% increase
of our test scores- or we'regonna go on double secret
probation- with the state ofTexas, and we're gonna lose our
accreditation, and I might getfired unless I get these test
(31:28):
scores up.
So I don't have time forcollaboration.
I don't have time for laughter.
I don't have time forpeer-to-peer teaching.
I need to bring up mystandardized test scores.
That's-
Vanessa Vakharia (31:37):
I feel uncomfortable right now.
Chase Orton (31:41):
I, I'm being, I'm being devil's advocate.
So where is the middle roadbetween what I am saying and
then what you have said?
And I don't know what that pathlooks like.
I don't I, I s- I work with somany teachers that are feeling
the pressure about standardizedtest scores.
And if they don't go up, they'renot a good teacher, and they're
gonna get on the pr- principal'spoop list, and then they're on
(32:02):
notice, and then- it's teachers,like, we don't always have a lot
of power.
Like, I've been in LA Unifiedwhere a mean principal can
really screw over a teacher.
Like,"Well, we can't fire you,but we can transfer you 30 miles
down the road and make yourcommute an hour each day, each
way." And, and they do that forThey i, anyway, so I, I just, as
(32:26):
teachers, uh, we do have to lookout for ourselves and our career
and what's important.
This is my whole shtick.
We want this.
It fills us up.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:35):
Yeah.
Chase Orton (32:36):
Right?
It is a great day of teachingwhen your kids come in and
they're like,"Oh my gosh, whatare we doing today?
What do you got for us today?"
Vanessa Vakharia (32:41):
Yeah.
Chase Orton (32:42):
Right?
And we That fills us up, right?
But if they're coming in withapathy, and they're coming in
with the, a negative attitudeor, or bitterness and anger, and
they're just wanna be defiant,like, that can really erode us.
And a culture of compliance andfollowing mandates and writing
your learning objective on theboard every day and making sure
(33:04):
kids read it out loud andfollowing all these mandates and
worried about test scores and,uh, interim district assessments
and state tests, um, thaterodes.
It gets in the way of whatnourishes us, and I think that
there's real tension there.
Vanessa Vakharia (33:18):
Yeah.
Chase Orton (33:19):
And I, I just, I You can read my book.
It's, it's a subversive book.
I, I don't take it tooseriously.
You might get fired.
I don't want you to do that, butyou-
Vanessa Vakharia (33:27):
Definitely the episode title, I cannot wait.
"Listen to this episode and youmight get fired." That's such
good copy.
I hear you.
I'm hearing you.
Sure.
Okay?
I am.
I'm wondering, and this is,like, a genuine question.
This is not me, like, be-because I actually don't know.
So first of all, in Canada, wedo not have standardized
(33:49):
testing, okay?
So I'm just gonna start bysaying, oh my God, that everyone
just sighed.
Yeah.
I can marry all of you.
Like, I'm, I'm down.
Make me an offer, I can'trefuse.
Um, no.
I say that because obviously I'min a different situation here-
Sure because there isn't thatpressure.
But let's, but there is the,like, you know, just what the
(34:12):
system is designed for, let's behonest, is a sorting mechanism
to get students from point A topoint B, and right, the sorting
right now is for them tograduate high school and then to
go to college or university,whatever their thing is, right?
Like, this is the point.
Chase Orton (34:26):
Sure, or trade school or- Yeah drop out or-
Vanessa Vakharia (34:28):
a sorting thing.
I only say that to say, so letme just ask you this.
In, like, this situation whereyou're like,"I can't see how we
can do both," we're, we are in abit of a pickle because we are
all in the system.
I really believe, and I thinkyou also believe, otherwise you
wouldn't be doing this work,that there are ways to be
(34:49):
complicit in a system whilerebelling against it, right?
We are, we are all doing thingsthat are moving the needle a
bit, like, moving the dial whileacknowledging, like, they, we
are also preparing kids forwhatever they need to do.
Until we are no longer in thesystem, which is the moving a
mountain, what is the move here?
(35:09):
Because, like, if you're kindof, like, y- preparing for a
standardized test is erodingthem and it's, like, cr- which,
yes, it totally is.
What is the alternative, to,like, never prepare them for the
standardized test?
Chase Orton (35:23):
Is to get them to fall in love with mathematics,
to have math joy.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:26):
But how do they, but, but how do they,
like, literally l- learn thething on the test they have to
write?
Chase Orton (35:32):
I, I don't know if that's a question worth a-
asking and answering in my timeon this earth
Vanessa Vakharia (35:38):
Oh my God.
Chase Orton (35:38):
I recognize that other people might wanna be,"How
do we prepare kids for thistest?" I have asked I've been in
that spot figuring it out, and Ijust, I don't think it's time
well spent as a human being.
Our time here is short, and Iknow, I, I know, I, I Some Uh, I
know that there are some leadersin this room are like,"Chase,
(36:00):
you know, just, sh-"
Vanessa Vakharia (36:02):
No, but I think it's fine for you to say
because that's not your job.
Chase Orton (36:05):
Sure.
Vanessa Vakharia (36:05):
It's actually fine.
Like, you, you say whatever you-Um Like, that's like a musician
being like,"I don't b-," like,"Idon't know how to teach math."
Like, fine.
Like, that's not your actualjob.
Your job isn't preparing someonefor a test.
It's creating joy in theseclassrooms- Sure and that's what
you do well.
Chase Orton (36:17):
Sure.
Vanessa Vakharia (36:17):
And that's fine.
Chase Orton (36:18):
But I, I wanna call out So you're Canadian, yes?
Yeah.
Toronto.
Vanessa Vakharia (36:23):
Is
Chase Orton (36:23):
that what you're calling out?
Toronto-based.
No.
I'm calling out how much moneydo the taxpayers of the United
States turn over to testingagencies- that you do not as a
country.
You invest in probably hu-humans- being better teachers,
and what's going Uh, maybe,maybe I'm sure as a Canadian on
the inside you see some of theillnesses-
Vanessa Vakharia (36:44):
Well, I actually don't know.
I want you to tell me what.
I actually don't even know.
But
Chase Orton (36:47):
I don't, I don't know what the line-by-line item
is for Somebody in this roomperhaps may know, or somebody in
the district knows what Leanderis paying-
Vanessa Vakharia (36:55):
Oh my God
Chase Orton (36:55):
for- This has got to be- all of the whatevers
crazy And it's not just Leander.
It's, it's, it's all the It's,it's California.
It's, it's the LA Unified.
It's, it's You, you, your p-statement is powerful.
We don't have standardizedtesting.
That means that there isn't a b-multibillion-dollar industry
driving up profits funded bytaxpayers.
(37:16):
And I know money's tight here inLeander, and it's tight all over
Texas, and it's tight all overthe country.
but it's not tight if you'rei-Ready, right?
And, and whatever the AndPearson and their, those testing
companies.
Like, what wou- could we do withthat capital- if we didn't turn
it over to freaking numbers on ascreen, and yellow data, red
(37:41):
data, green data that tells usthe same thing that we always
know all the time, which is ourdisadvantaged populations don't
do as well as our advantagedpopulations.
And we're spending billions ofdollars just to remind ourselves
of that truth.
And this is part of thenefarious stuff that was
happening, um, with the Nationat Risk in the early'80s, which
(38:01):
got totally That research gotdistorted and changed.
And then with No Child LeftBehind and the focus on
accountability and assessmentwas really just laying a
foundation of a profit-drivenmodel around test scores.
Okay.
And I, yeah, I don't get...
I get fired up about it.
Well- I might get a, a littleuncomfortable in the seat, but-
(38:23):
I, I get really uncomfortable.
Vanessa Vakharia (38:25):
No, but this is good.
Chase Orton (38:25):
I get, I get...
My blood boils about the profit.
Yeah.
And who's it for?
It's not for us as teachers.
Test scores do not...
You, uh, Alan, you was sharing,you got your test scores back,
yeah?
And collectively they went up,right?
They're like colle- but did youget any meaningful data on an
individual student that helpsyou grow as a teacher?
(38:47):
maybe, and I would love to knowthat or not.
But I, I, test scores, theydon't nourish our passion for
the work that we do.
They don't tell us how to grow.
It's not the data that we needto be looking at, and this is
where Peter and engagement andthinking and BTC really is
helpful about shifting what arewe looking at in a classroom?
What are we, what are, what dataare we really valuing?
(39:08):
And yes, ultimately, we want ourstudents to learn more content.
We want them to solve problemsthat they couldn't solve before,
and demonstrate that theyactually learned some math this
year.
uh, w- we want that, but it'salso, we operate continually in
the street data Shane Safir,right, another Corwin author
talks about, and this human datathat I talk about.
Like, that's the world that welive in.
(39:29):
Yeah.
That's what you all cited,right?
Like, it, it's not, nobody inhere is like,"Man, I really love
it when kids are just crushingit on their i-Ready diagnostic
assessments." Like- I've neverseen it, but I've seen it up in
the faculty lounge, right?
Vanessa Vakharia (39:43):
Link to i-Ready in the show notes,
everyone.
Chase Orton (39:46):
You know?
i-Ready, well, my problem withi-Ready, and I, here goes my
opportunity to ever work forthem, and I never would.
Vanessa Vakharia (39:52):
This is on a podcast, I'm just letting you
know.
Chase Orton (39:53):
It's fine.
Okay, go.
They, they sell curriculum-
Vanessa Vakharia (39:56):
Yeah, go for it
Chase Orton (39:57):
that is crap.
Um, if you were in my animalshelter lesson, have you seen my
animal...
that is i-Ready's mathcurriculum.
And then they create curriculumthat creates, encourages bad
pedagogy, that creates mathclasses that don't work for
kids, that then gets diagnosedby their own assessment, right?
And then so it's a little bitlike big pharma creating the
(40:18):
disease and then selling us thecure, um, and profiting on both
sides.
And so i-Ready in particular I,I struggle with because they are
both assessment and, andcurriculum at the same time.
Vanessa Vakharia (40:29):
Isn't that most curriculum companies?
Or no?
Uh- We, again, we don't havecurriculum companies.
Yeah, you- And that's the otherthing.
Chase Orton (40:35):
Yeah, I know.
You, how much money do we spendon textbooks?
Vanessa Vakharia (40:39):
Yeah, it's a totally different system.
Chase Orton (40:40):
Stop, y'all.
Vanessa Vakharia (40:41):
When we use the word curriculum in Canada,
it means content.
So that's why when I'm like,"Getthrough the curriculum," I'm
like,"Eh," I mean content.
We don't have this whole system.
Oh.
You know what is funny?
That, sorry, do you wanna keepgoing?
Chase Orton (40:53):
Yeah.
I- Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (40:54):
Please do.
Chase Orton (40:54):
I mean, yeah.
Where's my soapbox?
I'll put a soapbox on a soapbox.
Um, I, I do wor- I, I, uh, I, Ihave deep friends or dear
friends that work withfor-profit companies like Savvas
and- and other organ- uh,Amplify and other organizations
that, are thinly veiledprofit-driven models toward
(41:18):
profiting off of taxpayers'money.
Vanessa Vakharia (41:19):
I don't know how thinly veiled it is
Chase Orton (41:20):
Okay.
This-
Vanessa Vakharia (41:22):
Right?
Chase Orton (41:22):
Well- Like thinly veiled means it's barely veiled.
Vanessa Vakharia (41:25):
But I feel like-
Chase Orton (41:26):
It's not veiled at all
Vanessa Vakharia (41:27):
it's not...
Oh, right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We're, we're- What you'resaying, yeah
Chase Orton (41:30):
yeah, yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (41:31):
I'm like,"It's pretty obvious." Um, and, and
Chase Orton (41:33):
I, and this, I mean, this screws me out of any
sort of cushy job with, with a-
Vanessa Vakharia (41:37):
But you don't want one anyway
Chase Orton (41:39):
No, but it's-
Vanessa Vakharia (41:40):
You're an, you're an, what did you say?
You're not, a non-compliantemployee
Chase Orton (41:43):
I'm a critic.
Yeah, yeah.
So I- Yeah yeah, it's fine I'm acritic.
And, um, it puts me at odds withsome of my friends sometimes.
and I'm very lucky to have thework that I have.
I'm very grateful for thejourney that I've been on, as
weird as it's been.
And I am blessed, so I don'twant my cynicism toward the
system we work in to beungrateful for my position.
(42:06):
It is such a privilege to workwith you all.
Vanessa Vakharia (42:08):
Um- I don't think we're reading it that way.
Okay, good.
I w- I think we're reading it asyou're passionate about w- in
your role, what you're...
We all have different strengthsthat we bring to the profession.
Okay?
Like- Yeah your strength mightnot be working in the classroom,
in compliance, but your strengthis bringing joy and showing us
moments where we can besubversive within the classrooms
(42:29):
that we're in to createsomething that is missing in
math education, and that's whatyou do very well.
I don't think you're comingacross as cynical- like, in the
way of, like,"Oh, he's justjaded and cynical." I think
you're coming across as you'revery passionate because you see
a problem that could be solved,and instead of solving it, many
stakeholders are perpetuatingit.
(42:50):
And that's what it's comingacross as to me, and I think
it's probably refreshing for usto all be able to nod and be
silent and not have our namesattached to this rant- when most
of us agree.
So you, thank you for, for beingan ally.
Chase Orton (43:03):
Sure, sure.
Vanessa Vakharia (43:03):
And you know what is really funny?
We actually, like, somehow onlyhave 10 minutes and I wanna open
up to questions.
Chase Orton (43:08):
Yeah,
Vanessa Vakharia (43:08):
yeah.
Go for it.
No, but before I do, I do haveto note this full circle.
I don't know if you guys havebeen noticing our dynamic.
We started with this, of you b-of ta- you talking about
ambiguity.
And I was like,"Yeah, yeah".
It is so clear that I'm souncomfortable with ambiguity,
'cause I keep trying to find aresolution, and being like- No,
no"But can you just tell them,like- There's no way couldn't we
(43:28):
just..." And you keep beinglike- No"No.
There is no- there is nosolution." And I'm like,"You're
not, we need to wrap this up ina bow.
We've gotta give them somethingto walk away with.
We have to give them somethinghopeful." And you're kind of
sitting in it, being like,"Today, as of the recording of
this podcast, there is nosolution." And I think, like,
I'm learning my lesson of beinglike,"Wow," like, my need to,
(43:49):
my, like, fawn response and needto just have everyone being
happy and to have everythinggood sometimes does get in the
way of me being like,"Nope, westill have a problem, and we
still need to work on it." So Ifeel kind of like I'm being a
bit served here.
Chase Orton (44:04):
Uh, okay.
You're...
I, I mean, I...
turning it over to the crowd.
I, I would...
Just my last thing, becoming theteacher you wanna be, you can't
do it alone.
Uh, and we do not have theculture of professionalism.
We do not have the tenaciouscommunity of support, the
trustworthy relationships weneed to, to help each other
(44:26):
grow.
But the best professionaldevelopment is happening in the
classroom right next to you, andit doesn't have to be a same
grade level teacher.
It doesn't even have to be amath teacher.
But just going, watching ateacher do their thing in class,
and struggle, and toil, and, andthrive, and have success, I...
It's the best use of ourprofessional pupil-free time is
(44:48):
just watching math class from...
or math class or class ingeneral from the student
perspective.
And I don't...
I've just learned that we asteachers, when we have that,
help me see what I can't see formyself, right?
Like, if we had worked togetherfor five years, you would
pretty...
be pretty clear about my blind,blind spots, right?
And I yours.
(45:08):
Right?
And helping each other see whatwe can't see for ourselves.
Vanessa Vakharia (45:11):
Yeah.
Chase Orton (45:12):
So I, I give each other grace.
Find the people that are gonnahelp you thrive.
We are all imperfect.
And just remembering that ashowever you make your meaning as
a teacher, um, that you supporteach other, and, and you love
each other, and you help eachother grow and thrive.
And, it's on us.
Like, I, I...
(45:32):
There is no them that are gonnacome save us as teachers.
It's on us to really supporteach other and lift each other
up, and that's all I'm gonna sayon that.
Uh, I'm gonna turn it over toyou.
Questions, turn to talks,whatever you wanna, yada, yada,
(45:53):
yada.
Pear Square.
Oh.
Vanessa Vakharia (45:54):
What are we doing?
What are we doing?
What are we doing?
Thank you so much.
Okay.
Beautiful.
Okay, this is, this is...
Okay, let's, let's conclude.
First of all, that was so fun.
Chase Orton (46:06):
Yeah, it was a good time.
Vanessa Vakharia (46:07):
I honestly think, for the districts, if
you're watching this and you'relike,"What are we doing with our
lives?" You are doing somethinggroundbreaking.
You are.
Okay?
'Cause this is the first timewe've done a session like this,
and just because somebody'ssaying it out loud doesn't mean
no one was already thinking it.
Okay?
So, like, let's just clear, havethat there.
Chase Orton (46:23):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (46:24):
You're so great.
You're so- You all are greatuncomfortable right now.
Uh, yay.
Like, do you wanna get up andstretch?
Okay, here's what we're gonnado.
We are gonna end this recording,okay?
Thank you guys so much for beinghere.
Let's do an applause for therecording.
Whoo.
(46:46):
Guys, oh my God, our first everlive applause.
How insane is that?
And I didn't even, like, hold upone of those signs instructing
the audience to, like, applaudnow.
But oh my God, that's a greatidea for next time now that I've
thought about it.
This interview really left mefeeling the weight of what all
educators are feeling right now.
I heard it not only from Chase,but from over 50 of you that
(47:06):
were in the room, and it left mewondering, what do we do with,
like, the intense, unrelenting,and totally warranted anger we
feel at the system we're all in,a system that often makes it so,
so hard to be the teachers wewere born to be?
I wanna hear from you.
How do you cope?
How do you thrive?
How do you flourish when thatfrustration, sadness, and anger
(47:27):
is present?
Text the podcast by hitting theText Us link in your show notes
or DM me on Instagram.
My handle is@themathguru.
And if you have any thoughts onhow I can make the next Math
Therapy Live episode evenbetter, because there will be
more, text me your thoughts aswell.
And guys, thank you all forbeing along for this wild ride.
We've got big things coming thisyear, including a giveaway for
(47:49):
the new Texas Instruments EVOcalculator, which will happen in
one of the next two episodesthis month.
So follow, subscribe, and tunein every week, and thank you for
being here.
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