Math anxiety, vulnerability, and the secrets to building student confidence w/ Amy Johnston

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Amy Johnston (00:02):
vulnerability is a superpower.
when you weave in your ownpersonal experience to a
teaching moment, it can connectand it can deepen.
to be able to soften people'sbodies, have a laugh, bring some
levity to the moment, actuallyallows them to learn better.

(00:23):
Math is fundamental to theuniverse, so everyone has it in
you.
use it as an entry point tounderstand yourself more.

Vanessa Vakharia (00:35):
Guys, oh my God, hello, and welcome to Math
Therapy.
Welcome to all of our newlisteners.
I'm so glad you found thispodcast, and so glad you're
here.
And that's why this week I'mdoing two things.
First, I'm beyond excited foryou to hear this week's
interview, which was very, veryspecial for me.
Second, I'm doing anothergiveaway for the new TI Evo

(00:56):
during this episode.
But this time there's a funlittle twist.
Now, before I tell you about it,I've got to explain why this
episode is so special.
You're going to hear from one ofmy best friends, and one of the
most incredible therapists Iknow, Amy Johnston.
As you guys know, I have longbeen a believer that as
educators, we are healers.
And in order to heal to the bestof our abilities, it helps to

(01:18):
learn from other healers intheir own trade.
I mean, my book and this podcastare called Math Therapy, like
therapy.
And as we learn, we only growstronger in being able to heal
math trauma and help allstudents build healthier
relationships with math.
Amy and I explore how negativeearly math experiences shape
identity and persist intoadulthood, and we get into the

(01:40):
nuts and bolts of exactly how ithappens, and more importantly,
what to do about it.
Amy is insightful, genuine, andpragmatic, and drops practical
strategies for both students andteachers struggling with their
own math anxiety inside andoutside of the classroom.
Like, you're gonna be able touse these strategies right now,
even though it's summer, tobecome a stronger teacher in the

(02:01):
fall.
You're gonna walk away from thisepisode with a perspective shift
and at least one thing thatchanges the way you see yourself
or your students.
And most of all, guys, you'regoing to walk away feeling more
hopeful, I promise.
And now, for the reason I knowat least a few of you are here,
don't lie, it's totally fine, Isee you, this episode is
sponsored by Texas Instruments,which means we are doing another

(02:24):
giveaway.
Okay, so in case you missed it,which, like, I don't know how
you could have because theinternet is blowing up with this
news, TI just dropped theirnewest calculator, the TI-84
Evo, and people are going gagagoo goo bananas for it.
Like, we're talking Taylor Swiftticket pre-sale level cray, and
I am here for it.
Now, there are many reasons tobe obsessed, but one of the

(02:45):
things people are drooling overis the streamlined keypad, which
features, wait for it, adedicated fraction key.
If you know, you know.
You heard me, no more shift thisor second function that.
It's all there in its own key.
Now, to celebrate, we are givingaway an Oh My Math box, which
includes a brand-new TI-84 Evowith a four-year online

(03:07):
calculator license, a gettingstarted guide, a calendar, and
an absolutely adorable plushiecalculator keychain in a mystery
color.
Now for the twist.
How do you win this epic Oh MyMath box?
At some point during myinterview with Amy, I'm going to
share a code with you, and toenter the giveaway, all you have
to do is text the podcast usingthe link in your app.

(03:28):
Okay?
There's a link that says textus.
Use that link, text me the code,and I'll randomly pick a winner
by June 26th.
And just like that, the newTI-84 Evo is yours.
Okay, are we clear?
Are we ready?
Are we pumped?
I know I am, so let's get thisshow on the road.
Amy, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you.

Amy is one of my absolute best friends, and my
free therapist.
Because she is...
well, I've asked her to be mytherapist a million times, but
it is apparently not, you can'tbe-

'Cause I wanted to be your friend.

Right, exactly.
And you can't therapize yourfriends for money.

Yes.
Okay.
Correct.

But because I talk to Amy so much about my own
trauma and my own problems, Ireally wanted to have you on, to
talk about math trauma in thevery skilled way that I hear you
help me every day.

Okay.

So I know I was gonna say how new is the
term math trauma, but it's not'cause you hear me talk about it
all the time.

I remember when I first met you and checked out
your Instagram and saw you,campaigning on the street about
it.
I- I was like,"Whoa.
Who's this girl?" And I thoughtit was wonderful.
And it, I mean, like so manypeople, even just when I tell
them about you, it brought me tomy own experiences, so

Oh, my God.
Tell us about your ownexperiences.

it was just one of, like f- French and math I
struggled.
I had to take applied and thatall, like, in high school, and
that created its own challenge.
Like, I just felt really ashamedof that.

Mm.

And I was definitely a drifter.
I couldn't stay in the moment.
The thing that stands out themost is my teacher from high
school, his wife had him on adiet.

Okay.

And he would give us extra points if we went and
got him a Krispy Kreme.

Oh, my G- What are you saying?
Amy, what?

But he was actually so wonderful.
So, like, this created, like,this, like, hilarious dynamic.
And then also, he was very kind.
He would allow us to take thetest home on the weekend and do
it again, and anything that wegot right we would get half the
points more.
So-

Oh, my God, he was really ahead of his time

I really took advantage of that.
And, um, He was incredibly openabout the fact that, like, it's
stressful for people.

Okay.
First of all, I'm curious howmany Krispy Kremes he would get,
like, on a period.

I mean, definitely one from me almost every day.

Oh, my God.
So, like, his d- his, was hiswife like,"How is your diet not
fucking working?""Like, you'regaining so much weight."

I'm sure.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Like, that's, the math is not mathing on that.
Um, I'm...
Okay, I wanna back up because I,when he let you take those tests
home-

Yeah

did you cheat?

No.
No.
I really wanted to learn, and Ialso really cared about- my
marks.
I went to an arts school.
You had to keep a certain markto stay in the arts program.
Oh.
So it was, like, high stakes foreveryone, the, all my peers.
Um-

What was the mark you needed to keep?

I think a 70.
Okay.
Yeah.
And I mean, I distinctlyremember being in my own space
at home being able to make moresense of things.

This is so fascinating because that was 20
years ago?

Yeah, it would've been, like, 2003, two.

Which is so wild because we were so not
doing that then, and it'sinteresting now.
Like, I know you probably aren'tfamiliar with all the things
happening in math education, butone of the practices that I'm
really trying to encourage andthat other educators are trying
to encourage is this idea ofgiving alternate forms of
assessment because we, there wasa recogni- a recognition that in

(07:10):
a classroom setting, in a timedtest- you are not performing-
Yeah at, you know, you're notperforming the way you could be
performing.
Totally.
Right?
Like- Yeah it's like yourworking memory is often
hijacked.
Like, your amygdala is like,wah, whatever.
Like- Yeah right?
'Cause that pressure, um, takesover.
So it's really cool that he wasdoing that.
And it's also, I kinda wanteveryone to hear this because

(07:31):
sometimes we're like,"Oh, if wegive students the chance to
retake a test or to takesomething home or whatever,
they're gonna cheat," right?
Mm.
They're gonna j- And it's reallynice to just hear from you that
you're like,"No." Like, I...
You know, not every student isjust trying to, you know, walk
their way into a good mark.
Mm.
Students at the core, like myfriend Jamie Mitchell always
says, we need to assume positiveintent, right?

(07:53):
Like, students want to learn.

I love this.
This is, uh, I'll have to thinkmore on my experience of that.
It, when you were talking itmade me think math teachers
especially in high school,'causethat's when it kind of gets a
little bit more focused, right?
Mm.
I think of them, other than thisman, I can't remember his name
right now, but I think of themas, like, very archetypically,
like their identity seemed quiteserious.

(08:19):
Mm.
And I think something about thatalso would set me off.
I felt intimidated by all ofthem except for him.

Wow.
Yeah.
And again, like, I thinkeducators need to hear that.
Yeah.
Right?
That it's like, it's, I mean,who knows, it, like, hindsight
is not always 20/20, but it isin some respects.
So it's like, Yeah, I mean,like, I remember all of my
teachers being, like, 100 yearsold.
Mm.
Do you know what I mean?
Yeah.
Like, that kinda thing, whereit's just like...
'Cause you're seeing them inrelationship to you, right?

(08:46):
At, at that time.
So it's like, whether they areserious or not whether they
consider themselves serious ornot, there is this whole vibe
that precedes the math teacherthat I think we ha- as educators
have to be aware of.
Yeah.
Right?
Like, it's, like, up to us tosoften that.

That's interesting.

Now, I wanna kinda go back to you being,
like, being in applied in and ofitself- set up an entire
narrative.

Question (09:07):
Did you choose to go into applied or were you put in
there?

I chose.

Okay, you chose So you chose to go into
applied, and you were sayingthat that in and of itself
created a story in your mind.

Definitely.
Well, you know, hopefully thishas changed a little bit, but I
think it just made me feel likeI was less intelligent- because
especially what math andscience, I'll say, like is kind
of seen as or was seen as.
So that is something-

What were they seen as?

I think probably, the classes that You really
needed to have, like, a keenbrain, or, like, it was valued
more, or, it was harder.
Yeah.
And I thrived in, in arts and,and writing and, and things like
that.
And I mean, I went into socialwork at a time that it was
unusual to be an 18-year-old ina social work program.

(09:58):
Um, so it took me probably adecade after school to really
appreciate, like, my form ofintelligence.

My God, I'm just sitting with this of, like,
I say this all the time of it isthose, the math courses
especially that we associatewith intelligence.
Like, even though it's bullshit.
Like, we just, like, made it up.
Like, why- Yeah like, Ipersonally think, like, writing
an English essay is the hardestthing on the planet.
But, like, we call it...

(10:26):
It's, like, part of the arts.
Like, do you know what I mean?
We take it less seriously.
It's, like, somehow seen as,like, easier'cause it's more
subjective.

And, like, we are so focused on calling the people
who excel in mathematics thesmart ones that even if you're,
like, a very gifted writer orartist, right?
Like, how hard is it to, like,create art?
Like, anyways, this idea ofhardness and difficulty is
interesting.
Yeah.
Well, it, it, as you're sayingthat, made me think of, like, it
trickled into the, my experiencewith music theory too because

(10:56):
it, it was, like, kind of thiscombination of, like, I suck at
all that, and it just I thinkwhat you said earlier about,
like, the overwhelm, the new,new way of, I guess, approaching
this with kids really makessense.
Like, something about thepressure just made me go offline

(11:16):
in my mind.

Do you st- do you still consider yourself
someone who's, like, anxiousaround math now?

yes.
I think-

Like, you run your own business.

Yes, I run my own business.
I will say, like, to me, there'sa little bit of an intersection
of money.
Like, uh, so I think I'venoticed, like, tax season is a
str- has been historically astressor for me.

Everyone stop right now and go listen to the
episode I released a few weeksago called...
why smart people still feel outof control and what to do about
it.
I just, I...
all I'm gonna say is go- where Iliterally start the episode
having a full mentee be aroundtax season.
Right.
Like, I have an actual meltdown.

Love it.

So this is the perfect...
Okay, keep going, though.
So,'cause this is reallyimportant, what you're saying.
Yeah.
Tax season all of a suddentriggers money, and money is
related to numbers, which isrelated to math.

Yep.
Well, and I think this- People.
I feel like my own leaningtowards taking on, let's say,
sitting in my discomfort as I'mdoing my taxes on my own and
really trying to do it withoutmy partner's support or anyone's
support, like, it does feel likethere's an element of gender as

(12:33):
well, that I can only speak toon a personal level, has been,
like, my own motivator.
Um, I don't wanna be a woman, anadult woman, who can't take care
of that stuff for herself.

Mm.
I mean, so it's, like, you don'tprobably even know this, but
this is what so much of myresearch is on.
Okay.
And it's, everything youexperience is completely
validated by research.
Okay.
Just so you know.
Beautiful.
Yeah.
It feels good, right?
Yeah.
To, like, know that.
And that's, like, I think that'swhy it's important to, like,
talk about this stuff, becausewe feel so isolated, like it's,

(13:07):
like, some whole weird thingthat we can't explain, but it's
like this is all validated byresearch.
There's a very gendered natureto women feeling this sense of
out of control-ness- related tofinances, that when we dig down,
is often related to a mathtrauma that took place.
It's often related to feelingless than in a classroom.
By the way, I went to do aschool visit, uh, last week.

(13:31):
So I went to go visit schoolsand check out, like, the math
therapy vibes in theirclassrooms, because a lot of
these teachers had done maththerapy book studies, so they
were using the strategies intheir classrooms.
Went to an AP calculus class, sothat is, like, a, you know,
students elect to be in thoseclasses.
Like, you don't have to takecalculus to graduate high
school.
There was two girls in theclass.

(13:52):
There was two girls and 18 boys.
So even to this day- thegendered nature of math ability
persists.
It is not e- there, there's somuch research that shows it is
not because women or girls areless capable of math.
They self-select out of mathwhen it is no longer necessary
because there's a millionmessages that tell them they
don't belong in that classroom.

(14:13):
So, like yeah, I just wanna say,this is such a, such a thing.

It's bringing me to a lot of places in my mind.
It's really-

Oh my God, like where?

I think it's just, like, I- I really, like a big
part of my work andself-exploration is, is looking
back to those moments.
I think actually thisconversation's helping me
realize that that teacher had areally softening effect on me.

What's his name?
I can't remember.
We should find him.
I wonder if he still teachesthere.

Maybe he does.
He was a lovely man.
Um, he was funny and, andlight-hearted, and he didn't
take himself that seriously, buthe was brilliant.
Um, so e- even just thinkingabout his expression of
masculinity, let's say- wasreally playful.
but yeah, I'm th- it's making meemotional as you're talking, so
I know that this is like, Iwould like to do some exploring

(15:01):
of my own history.

Oh my God.
Yeah.
Well, I love when someone setsme up for a perfect segue, and
you've just done it.
Like this is gonna Wait, waittill you guys see how skilled
this is.
So we're talking about thegendered nature of math here,
and what we can also talk aboutis any time I go to a math
conference, especially if I'm ina session, an elementary
session, math conferences aremostly attended by elementary

(15:26):
educators.
It's not like there aren't highschool teachers there.
Of course there are.
There's principals, there's highschool teachers, there's
coaches.
They are largely elementary.
And I would say a mathconference is 80% women.

That's interesting.

Yeah.
Most of the teachers that are inthe room are women because most
elementary teachers are women.
Okay?
We can probably find a stat onthis.
Dave, fact-check this for me.
I see.
Okay.
I don't even need a fact-check.
Like, I know this is true, butI'd like to know what the actual
numbers are.
Yeah.
But most most elementary schoolteachers are women, but all
elementary teachers have toteach math.
Now, you don't know this, andmaybe some of our listeners

(15:58):
don't if you're not an educator,to be an elementary teacher you
do not need any math universitycourses.
To be a high school mathteacher, you do need to have
taken math at the collegeuniversity level.
Okay?
So it's not like there aren'twomen who are high school math
teachers, there are, but thinkabout it this way.
All elementary teachers have toteach math.

(16:21):
Zero of them need to have takenmath post-secondary and 80% of
them are women.
So what we now have now, andthen given our conversation, we
know that it is very likely tohave an experience around math
trauma, which we're gonna unpackin a second, to have an
experience around math trauma atsome point in school or when
you're younger.

(16:41):
So now we have these classroomteachers, these elementary
teachers, 80% of whom are women,with- anxiety around math that
probably in s- in many waysthere's a gendered component to
it.

Right.

And they're having to every day get up in
front of their classroom andteach math, this subject that
they do not feel 100% confidentwith.

Wow.

Yeah.
And this is something I did anepisode with Heidi Sabnani a
couple weeks ago literally aboutthis, called Anxious About Math?
You Might Be the Best Person toTeach It, and we talk about
teacher math anxiety.
It is one of the biggest, one ofthe, the biggest issues in math
education, and one of the leasttalked about issues in math
education.
And I'm really excited- thatwe're gonna talk about this now.

(17:22):
Because we are working really,really hard to prevent math
anxiety or to mitigate mathanxiety on a student level, but
these poor teachers with theirown math anxiety are the ones
tasked with doing it.

This is amazing.
Yeah.
This is actually helping meunderstand your work in a really
cool way.
Yeah.
I mean-

Which I love this is all about me at the end
of the day.

Well, it's- It's phenomenal.
Okay, so, okay, so maybe I'lltake that.

So, so I wanna really now spend some time
talking about how we helpteachers, how we help these
adults who, because you are, Imean, you don't teach math, but
I mean, l- well, now that we'redigging through your past
history, it's like there couldbe someone just like you who had
this exact experience.
Like, let's imagine it was youwho had this experience of,
like, in high school, like,you're in applied math, you have

(18:08):
this great teacher, but you'vealready now developed this story
about yourself that you're lessintelligent than everyone else
'cause you have to take appliedmath.
Mm.
And now you're in an elementaryclassroom teaching math to these
kids, and A, maybe you're not100% confident with the
material, and B, you'repetrified that you're like,
"Fuck, I don't wanna make thesekids anxious about math." Yeah.
So what, how do we help theseteachers?

(18:28):
Like you know, what would belike, let's imagine you had a
patient, like you had a clientor, what do we call them?
Clients.
Uh, you had a client that waslike,"Oh, man, I'm really
struggling.
You know?
Like, I really wanna make sure Ido the best job for these kids,
but I'm anxious around math.
I don't know how to get over myown math anxiety- but I also
don't wanna traumatize thesekids." Like, where, where would

(18:49):
we start?

This feels like it ties into something that I
support almost every clientwith, which is to see the
moments in your present day thatkind of, like, rhyme with your
past or is like a, some form of,like, a traumatic recreation,
which it sounds like it would befor a lot of these teachers that

(19:10):
have to teach something that wasoverwhelming for themselves, is,
like, that's actually a momentof opportunity.
It's like a really- like, sacredmoment.
So I would encourage framingentering into, like, that
semester or that school year as,like, something deeper is going

(19:31):
to happen that year because ofthe challenge.

Oh my God, I love this.
I love what you just said abouta sacred moment.
So right away we're reframingthis moment.
Tell me if I've gotten thisright.
Instead of being like,"Oh, fuck,here I go again-"

Yeah

"The stressful thing I'm just gonna try to get
through," instead your energyaround it is,"Okay, here I go."
Yeah.
"I'm entering a p- a sacredmoment of potential healing."

Yes, because I'm hearing there's two things
available.
There's their personal journeythat's gonna be activated, and
there's their opportunity to bea change maker for the kids.
So- I think when it comes to,let's say, interacting with your
students, I mean, there's...
This is something that, I thinkcan be really valuable for, for

(20:17):
all e- elements of life.
But, like, when you weave inyour own personal experience to
a teaching moment, it canconnect and it can deepen.
So I would suggest, like, maybesaying the quiet part out loud.
Like, right away from f- firstday of class or throughout to

(20:37):
name your own experience of itbeing challenging for you,
whatever it is, right?

What could that look like?

I th- I mean, it could look like my Krispy Kreme
story.
Like, what's a real anecdote?
And you could even try and,like, playfully think
beforehand, like,"What was myown personal challenge?" And,
like, don't make it too, much.
It could just be, like, thatsame little callback comes
throughout the semester.
but if that...
Again, I think that there'sprobably...

(21:03):
Like, I would...
If I was supporting a teacher, Iwould bring it into, like,
what's going on for them as theyenter into that lesson, and what
are they noticing, let's say,like, on a body or thought
level.

Okay, guys, I am so sorry to pause this
amazing convo, but I have a verygood reason because I am here
with your top secret code forthe TIO My Math Box giveaway.
Okay, the code isILoveFractions.
All you have to do is click thelink that says Send Us a Text in
the show notes of whatever appyou're listening to this episode
in.
Send the words ILoveFractions,and you'll be automatically

(21:41):
entered into our giveaway.
Okay, let's get back to the ep.
First of all, I love thisbecause I talk about this all
the time, the idea ofvulnerability as a superpower as
a leader.

Yeah.

And as a teacher you are a leader.

Yeah.

Um, and I think a lot of teachers have
been taught that, like, theyneed to pretend that they feel,
like, amazing about math andthey can't possibly speak of
their anxiety'cause it's gonna,like, be contagious or
something.
And that causes its own pressureof, like, now not only are you,
like, stressed about this thing,but you've gotta pretend you're
not stressed.
Which we all know how that goes,right?
Like, that doesn't feel good.

(22:15):
So, let's back off of, like, ateacher being like,"Okay, when I
go into the classroom, like, I'mjust so petrified I'm gonna make
a mistake on the board, or astudent's gonna ask me a
question I don't know an answerto, and I start, like, freaking
out."

Well, okay, so, you know, a strategy, like,
just- You could think of it as,like, you're narrating that
moment.
Like, let's say if that momentwas muted, and it was in a scene
in a movie, and a narrator wasspeaking over top, like, what
would the narrator say about theteacher's experience to help the

(22:49):
audience understand?
And then just, like, bring thatout of yourself and tell your
students.
Pause yourself, say like,"Wow,I'm really noticing I'm stressed
right now.
This is reminding me of mypast," or,"Hey, does anyone
notice, like, this is...
I'm fumbling here." And thatcould be, like, actually the
more powerful moment of the, ofthe lesson for the kids and for

(23:11):
themselves.
what do you think of this?
I'm obsessed.

I'm...
What I'm thinking is I'm sopissed we're not, like, I can't
post this clip on Instagram'cause we don't have any video.
But I'm also like, this actuallysounds like such a fun rom-com
strategy.

I love narration.
I think I do it for me.
Like, when I feel distressed,like even yesterday I was
driving to come visit you.
I wasn't in my own car.
It was, like, a little bit muchfor me to be, like, h- all this
kind of shenanigans thathappened on my day.
And I was like,"Oh, I feeluncomfortable." And so I just
started, like, if this was beingnarrated, it would be, like, it

(23:46):
would refer to, like, mychallenging week.
It would, like, maybe call backto, like, what I've been going
through this year.
it ma- you could even say, like,what previous scenes of your
life, if it was a movie, wouldneed to be, like, flashed and
shown for the viewer tounderstand the moment you're in.

I am obsessed with this.

How how have we not woven this into our own
personal therapy?

I know.
I'm like...
'Cause I'm, like, right nowthinking about a lot of
situations- where I'm like,"Ohmy God, I should..." Like, our
music industry stuff, it wouldbe so great to be like,"Okay,
this moment is triggering youwith this band.
Flashback to this scene when wegot totally screwed up." Like,
first of all, it's making it alot more fun.
Yeah.
Like, I'm seeing it as a comicstrip.
Yeah.
Do you know what I mean?
Yeah.
Like, where you could, like, cutand paste scenes.
Yeah.
What I'm also honestly, Amy,thinking is this would be such a

(24:28):
cool activity to do withstudents.
Totally.
Like, make a comic strip thatled up to the current way you
feel in math class right now.
I love that.
Like, this is so fun.
But because this is about te-the teacher, and I wanna stick
with the teacher'cause theydon't get the attention, I
really like this idea ofpausing, creating that little
comic strip just to, first ofall, get some perspective.

(24:49):
Because I think a lot ofteachers are also like,"What the
fuck is wrong with me?" Like,"Why can't I just get it
together and teach this lesson?"And it's like, well, hold on.
If you were gonna narrate thismoment like, the viewer would be
like,"Of course, this isn'tabout getting it together.
Like, all of these things haveled up to this moment.
This moment isn't in isolation."And what I also love the most,
the most, the most is the ideaof then narrating it to the

(25:10):
student to contextualize theexperience because not only are
you helping, are you humanizingthe moment for the student, who
probably feels the fucking sameway but you're also taking the
pressure off of you to beperfect.
Right?
So it's like, now you and thestudents are all on the same
page.
And you can be like,"Okay, guys,yeah, I'm fumbling because, oh
my God, let me tell you guysthis story about this teacher

(25:31):
and how I was put into applied,"and other students will be like,
"Oh my God, I feel the sameway."

Love this, and I think this is where your work is
so powerful to that fieldbecause I think what we can know
is, like, to be able to softenpeople's bodies, have a laugh,
like bring some levity to themoment, actually allows them to

(25:55):
learn better.
So it, and it's not like the f-I don't know, you can tell me if
I'm understanding this, but it'snot like the field of math needs
to, like, really buckle down onthe practicalities.
Like that's, you got that.
That's, you know, that's set.
But what needs to happen to,like, bring it to more people is
to humanize it and so it's likealmost like this paradigm shift

(26:18):
of, like, that is, let'sfront-load the lesson with that
to make sure every lesson hasthat so that the rest can kind
of flow.

Can w- how do we get you in a school today?
Like, get into a school.
Oh my God, we should, like, goon tour together.

Good, totally.

How much fun would we have?

Love this moment for us.

Oh my God, because, like, we could even
just...
Okay, so anyway, so let's getback to- So we're narrating the
experience.
Strategy number one-narrate.
Narrate, be vulnerable,front-load with a narration.
Bring, you know, like make yourexperience visible for the
audience.
Right?
Great.
What else can we do?

I mean, as we're talking about this, I feel like
we're kind of toggling betweenm- the teachers are landing a
little deeper in my heartbecause it's like probably
they're always gettingsuggestions on how to improve,
but what I'm hearing is actuallythey're going through a moment
of their own activation.
So I'm just like, I, you know, Ithink something that came to

(27:19):
mind that feels like it's morefor the students is to...
This came up actually when Iused to work with medical
doctors, and it was, like, thisidea of, naming directly that
the doctor, because of thesystem we're in, the doctor has
to be the gatekeeper to some ofyour health journey.
They need to sign off on thingset cetera.
This was particularly when I wassupporting people that, for

(27:40):
gender confirmation surgery.
It's like here we are in thissystem that exists this way.
I have knowledge that, and Ineed to say yes to the things in
order for you to feel like youcan move on and and have the
things in your life.
So in math it's like in orderfor you to feel like you...
'Cause math is so woven into,like, our personhood, you, for
me and my taxes, it's like it'sa thing you need.

(28:01):
I think just naming the wordgatekeeper, maybe deconstructing
that for younger kids, but,like, I know that this is, I'm
the person now that is having togive you this information.
But, like, hopefully em-empowering kids to learn it in
other ways.
Is this making sense?

W- this is, like, so deep.
Like, I'm really...
You've just said so many thingsthat I'm like,"Oh my God." Like,
I think you've touched on, like,30 things I wanna talk about.
But I really do wanna...
I wanna dig a bit deeper intothis gatekeeper idea.
Are you...
Tell me if I'm understanding.
Are you saying that, like, it isuseful for the educator, like,

(28:41):
the, the comparison to thedoctor is, like, the educator
has to be the one to be like,"I'm signing off on the fact
that you passed." Like, that youknow this concept.
Also them being like they alsohad a gatekeeper, many
gatekeepers in their life whohad to sign off.
So, like the reason that teachermight not feel competent or
confident is because they didn'tget the sign-off they needed

(29:02):
from somebody in their lives,but now they're playing this
role for somebody else.

Right.
And just, again, it's like shinea flashlight on that and name
it.
Of course, we have to continue'cause we're all in this system.
So y- the teacher does need togive you the pass or fail, but
if the teacher canacknowledge...
Like, I do this sometimes withmy clients where it's like, you
know, I think it can be reallydestructive for people to not
think that a therapist or adoctor has their own challenges.

(29:28):
So I'm not gonna spend the timesharing that, but I might say
and name, like,"Here in thismoment, there's, like, a, a
power difference.
But this isn't the only placewhere you can explore this part
of your identity." And, youknow, like, use this.
You're in the driver's seat ofyour life.
You...
If I didn't have that teacherthat gave me that opportunity to

(29:49):
do my tests at home, I mighthave an even more challenging
time sitting down with my taxesnow.
But, like, thankfully, I had agatekeeper in that grade 11 or
whatever it was that softenedthe experience.
So I think, yeah, I don't know,like, I feel like I'm going a
little bit meta with this,

but- I love it though Because I do, I do see
the connection.
I actually think, in a way, it'slike, uh, like re-parenting
almost in a way.

Yeah.

Right?
Like, for the teacher to belike,"Okay, I didn't have
this-but I acknowledge that itplayed a role in how I feel
about math." Right.
I can now play this role in mystudents' lives of being
like"Yeah, fine.
Like, we are in this system."And I talk about this all the
time, of how hard it is to dothis work within the confines of
the system,'cause you do have topass-fail the t- You have to

(30:37):
give them a grade.
You have to whatever.
But there are these windows andthese moments, just like you had
with Krispy Kreme teacher, Iguess we're just calling him
that- um, where it's like hesoftened it a bit.
Yeah.
And you still remember that, andI think this is so important for
teachers to hear, is like y-your students are going to
remember these moments.
Yeah.
It's like it could always beworse, and you're going to make

(30:57):
it better, even if it's not theultimate, you know, maybe they
don't all get 100%, and theydon't all get As, but they're
still gonna remember theselittle moments.
Yeah.
And it's going to soften thetrauma, it's gonna soften the
anxiety, it's going to be apotentially corrective
experience.
So to get up in front ofstudents and be like,"Hey, guys,
I get that this can be kind ofrough." Like, you know what I
mean?
Like, yes, like, there aregrades, there are assessments,

(31:18):
there are things you have tolearn, but I see you.
Mm.
And this is part of the work Ido too, of being like, what
opportunities can you find toshow students, and yourself as
the teacher, that you are doingmath in so many empowered ways
that you have an, a unique takeon?
Right?
Like, math does not just existin the classroom.
It's not just in the textbook.
It's ju- not just on the paper.
So when we can acknowledge thatfor our students and in

(31:40):
ourselves, it can just beempowering and release the holds
of that gatekeeping, I think, abit.

I love it.

I love Okay.
I love it.
So now we have a teacher at thefront of the room.
They're doing the narration.
They're like,"Okay, this issick.
I feel like, you know, myvulnerability is actually
helping me, like, enter thismoment a little more safely."
They're reliving their owngatekeeping experiences- and
redoing it for their students.
And now one of the m- one of thethings that can help teachers
feel less anxious, and help allof us feel less anxious, is

(32:06):
knowledge, right?
Knowledge is power.
And they're like,"Oh, man."There's a lot of teachers who
are like,"Fuck." Like,"This,every time I get to this
fractions lesson," or they havethis opportunity to teach
another grade, and they're like,"No, I ca- I can't.
I can't.
I've gotta stick with thisgrade." And now they're
thinking,"I don't know.
Maybe I do wanna learn some ofthis content that always, like,
made, gave me the ick.
Like, I wanna, like-" And thereare lots of incredible educators

(32:27):
out there doing the work ofreteaching mathematics in a more
empowered way.
How do we get them to take thatopportunity, even though they're
like,"Oh, the last thing I wannado is learn more math.
I'm scared I'm not gonna learnit"?
Like- Yeah how do we step intothat?

This is, again, I think touching on something that
I, personally, I feel like itwould be, like, my biggest
thing, I w- if I had, like, amicrophone to the whole world, I
would try to-

You do, kind of, right now, actually.
That's what the internet is for.

Like, I think challenge is the moment of
opportunity.
Challenge is sacred.
So I, I'm thinking about thisfamily that, and several
families that I've supported,but one in particular where we
talked about how the mom reallyfaced a lot more
intergenerational trauma thanher daughters.
So if you think of, like, theteacher, and the, you know, who

(33:16):
were those teachers' teachers,you're, you had it worse in a
way.
Like, s- this was not beingtalked about.
And so part of what I'm thinkingin this moment is, like, this
analogy of, like, a snowballrolling down a hill, and the
teacher is, like, stopping it sothat the next generation doesn't
get blown over by the avalanche.

(33:38):
That pressure in your body ofholding it back, like, holding
back the history, like,"I'mgonna kind of digest this moment
rather than recycle it and haveit happen to the younger people"
is, like, s- so brave and truly,like, how we evolve as a
collective.
So I think it's part of, like,it, it's a person by person, if

(34:00):
we can actually see thesemoments where we're triggered
as, again, the moment ofopportunity to digest what
wasn't before us digested.

Like, the snowball has sent me.
That's the moment.
You're right.
You're holding up the ballrolling down the hill, and I
just, I really love thisframing.
I just wanna pause.
Like, this is the quote,"Thechallenge is the opportunity."
It is a sacred opportunity for acorrective experience.
Yeah.
And also, I'm just like, how,you know, we have spent so much

(34:31):
work trying to impart thatmessage down onto students of
being like,"Productive struggle.
Like, the struggle is the thing.
Like, it's process." Like, butyou just The way you said that
the challenge, it's not thatthat's the good thing or it's a
learning moment, it's theopportunity.

Yeah.

And for teachers, it's the opportunity
to stop that snowball rollingdown the hill.

Yeah.
And it's And, and by doing that,you are evolving your own
personal life, which I think is,like, so important for teachers
bec- I mean, you know this waymore than me, but, like, that's
a form of deconstructing this,like, the devaluing of that role

(35:11):
is, like, for us to even benaming this right now and
saying, like,"This is a massiveservice that you're doing, and
it's not just for the kids andfor society.
It's also It's making me thinkof I'm on a big Carl Jung kick,
you know?
But I'm learning about he, hebelieved that the first half of
life is in the external world.
So the kids are in theirexternal world part of their

(35:34):
life, and it's about tending tothat so they can have these ex-
these experiences that thenthey, after 40, they go inward
with it.
So the teachers are having a,their inward experience in the
classroom.

What?
Wait, what?
Say more about this.
Like-

It's like the content from their past is being
activated in that moment.
So I think, like, this, thissummary is kind of the same
recycled statement here of just,like, when you're triggered in
the classroom because as a kidyou had your own stress, seeing
that as, like, a log on the fireinternally to burn something

(36:10):
that, like, is about your ownlife path.
Like, if every person had theirown personal mythology, trying
to understand, like, what mathand your own history...
Let's say you're, like, you wentinto teaching because you really
love music, but, oh, no, here Igo, have to go into this math
class for this semester.
Like, what was it about your...
What was happening in yourchildhood around the time when

(36:31):
your particular math anxiety ortrauma started?
And so, like, perhaps pa- at theend of the math class that day,
taking a moment to think of,like, how is this transforming
my inner experience?
Does it make sense?

It totally does.
It's, it's, it's deep but itmakes sense, right?
It's Okay, so again, let me tryto- Let's see if I understand
it, actually.
To me, it's like creating a moreholistic thread.
Instead of looking at a mathexperience in isolation, to look
at a math experience a- as partof your personhood.
So I'm hearing you kind of belike you're in the math class
now, present day- and things arecoming up.

(37:07):
Things are maybe beingtriggered.
You're having some things comeup.
You're maybe repairing them inthe moment.
You're maybe being vulnerablewith your students.
And to take a minute to be like,"Back when I was 10 years old
and having this math experiencethat gave me the ick, what else
was going on for me as a humanbeing?
I was making new friends.
I was at a new school.
My parents were fighting athome.

(37:27):
Like, I was, like, insecureabout, like, I don't know, my
new bangs or whatever." And now,like, just to be like that, that
math experience in grade two wasa piece of an entire person, and
now looking at the person I amnow, how does this new math
experience tie in?

(37:47):
Wait, now I'm confused.
Am I right?
Kinda?

Yeah.
I think if we could boil it downto like-

Yeah, let's boil it down.
I went off.
I, I lost myself.

I, I took us there.
But, like, I'm seeing, like, I'mtrying to think of, like, a
teacher and, and how much theyhave on their plate, and
probably it's a big ask to makethis a meaningful moment.
But if it is intersecting withyour own wounding, to carve any

(38:19):
kind of moment that feels likeit's stepping inside of yourself
rather than having it be onlyliving in the external world.
The kids are in their external.
You're gonna use your words andspeak and share stories and help
them with their behaviors andtheir learning.
Something is simultaneouslyhappening to the teachers, and

(38:40):
that could look like a hand onyour heart, or it could look
like maybe taking some time totalk to someone who gets it
before the semester starts, andthat's all it is.
Could be like if you reallywanted to have this fuel your
personal development, it couldbe like some kind of ritualized
experience pre and post class orpre and post semester.

I think we have to look at our math
experiences not in isolation,but as a part of our growth as
human beings.
So whatever happened back then,like using air quotes was a part
of our growth as a human being,and now we are in the classroom
however many years later.
And to realize that ourresponsibility is not just,
like, at all costs you're justserving the kids.

(39:23):
It's I mean, I think it's theclassic thing about teachers.
Like, as we teach, we say thisabout just math, the best way to
learn something yourself is toteach it to someone else.
And maybe we can translate thatto the best way to learn
yourself, to- to unlearn andrelearn your story of yourself
as a mathematician or a doer ofmath, is to teach that to

(39:43):
someone else.
So in a teaching and providingthis beautiful experience for
students, you're also providingthat experience for yourself,
and we need to take a moment andhonor that.
Does that sort of make sense?

Absolutely.

I think it is that adage of, like, we don't
think about it this way, but ifwe- if a student was like,
"What's the best way to relearnthis material for an exam?" We'd
be like,"Go teach it to someoneelse." And the best way for you
to- to rewrite your story as alearner and- and doer of math is
to teach a new story to someoneelse as well.

Beautiful.

And, like, I always say, like, I think we're
talking about this in differentwords but in the same way, like
my big thing is celebration.
I'm like if you have a singlemoment where you're like,"Oh,
that wasn't so bad," or,"Oh, Idid this thing I didn't think,"
or,"I made a mistake on theboard and I didn't have a
meltdown," like pop a fuckingconfetti cannon.

Right.

Like, that is a moment like h- like you said,
hand on heart.
Like, that's a moment to belike,"Holy shit," like,"look
what I just did." Don't just runby that moment.

What's, like, the common thread between the
teachers that you meet?
Like, what, uh, picturing themlistening to this, like, is
there something we've missed?

Well, if you're listening to this right
now, I, we want you to text thepodcast.
Okay.
Like, is there some- so Amy isone of my absolute best friends
in the world, so we can have herback on any time.
So if you have questions aboutthis, tell us.
Is there something we missed?
Is there something you wannahear?
Is there something you'd like toask her about?
Is Like, please text us.
You can find the link in yourshow notes.
So do that, And then I will sayto you- There's, you know, when

(41:13):
I talk about math trauma, whichis, is literally defined as a
negative experience with maththat sticks with you- long after
it's over.

Right.

Right?
Like, I like how you said itearlier, like a distressing
event that has stuck with you.

Yeah.

There are so many types, right?
That can take shape in the wayit did with you, somebody g-
get, you know, being in anapplied math class.
It can be being bullied, it canbe being yelled at, it could be
just feeling like you're beingcompared to everyone in the
room.
It could be com- being comparedto a friend or a sibling.
It could be an undiagnosedlearning difference.
When I talk to teachers,'cause Ido this work with teachers, they
will cite a lot of these things,right?
They'll say,"Oh, my God," andthen,"There was this teacher who

(41:46):
made me feel so stupid." A lotof it comes from other teachers,
it comes from parents, it comesfrom the peers.
Like, there are a lot of ways inwhich you can have a distressing
experience in mathematics thatsticks with you, especially if
that thing is repeated.
Right?
Like, over and over againhappens.
and the way that manifests inthe classroom is, being really
scared and anxious and going,you know, f- going into fight,

(42:06):
flight, freeze when you're aboutto teach a lesson.

Right.

Another big way it happens is we have all
these beautiful newinstructional practices, right?
Like for example, your KrispyKreme teacher sending that test
home.
We have all of these practiceswe're trying to encourage now.
Like, giving students multipleway- times to read, write a
test, or teaching math in adifferent way, and a lot of
teachers are just too scared totry it because they're like,"But
what if...
like, I understand this one wayof teaching math.""I'm gonna

(42:31):
stick to it, because if I trythis other way, it's gonna
threaten the entire foundationof which I stand," right?
So, like-

The, the foundation-

Of being like, "I understand this.
I'm too scared to try to teachmath in a different way or teach
fractions by this differentmethod,'cause what if I don't
get it?
What if a student asks aquestion I don't understand?"

Right.

"At least if I just stick to the script and the
way I've been taught to teach itI don't have to feel those
feelings." So I think you'vetouched on this beautiful thing
of- the feeling of thosefeelings- that challenge is the
opportunity.

Like, if they fumbled, and if they were able
to say, like,"Oops, didn't dothat right" or,"I have to, you
know, go back to the drawingboard on this lesson," that's
actually the bigger takeaway.
Could be a bigger takeaway.

Could be the bigger takeaway.
And again, I was in a classrooma couple weeks ago that I
watched a teacher make amistake.
We were doing some factoring,and he made a mistake.
We were all, we all saw themistake, and students were like,
"Hold on.
Isn't that number supposed to be-7?" And he was like,"What?
What?" And then he clued in andwas like,"Oh.
Oh, my gosh.
Oops.
Yeah, it totally was.
Good catch."

Nice.

And I was like,"What a beautiful moment."

Yes.

Right?
Like, in those moments, butagain, if you are carrying your
own math trauma and you have aninsecurity around math, that
moment is so threatening,'causeyou're like,"They're gonna find
out I'm an imposter."

Ugh, it's like an unmasking of, like, so many
people in society right now.
That is, the...
I love hearing this.

Oh, what, pause.
Sorry, you can't just make astatement like that.

Well, it's just like the, it's like this, what
you've been talking aboutaround- the vulnerability is a
superpower.
And this is so interesting,right?
Like, you can, it lands as c-more confident-

100%

we were talking about this yesterday.
Lands as more confident when youcan name your vulnerability.
Or, like, ooh, like again,narrate or bring out the truth
of what's happening in the innerworld of like,"Oh, wait.
I didn't, I didn't get thisright." That's a way to be a
bigger...
And again, like, it does bringme to the patriarchy'cause I'm
like, this is deconstructing.

Yeah.
At the end of the day, it allcomes back to it.

It real- it really, really does.
So teachers are amazing.

Sorry,

can you just finish the patriarchy thought,
though?
Well, uh, one of my favoritesayings comes from one of my
favorite decks of cards, that islike,"Don't be the coconut, hard
on the outside with mushyinside.
Be the avocado, strong at thecore and yielding outside." I
always wanted to get a c-avocado tattoo.
But-

Oh my God

so I think of the patriarchy as the h- the
avocado.
It's like, what is going oninside of the, like, the mush of
it all?
It's like-

Wait, no, the patriarchy's the coconut

sorry, the coconut.
Yeah.
The coconut.
And so I don't know.
That's, that's where my mindgoes with that.

I th- I think that's it.
I don't think anything elseneeds to be said.
I think, that's it.
Be the avocado.

Be the avocado.

Be the fucking avocado.
Everyone loves avocado.
Yeah.
It's very trendy these days.
Be the avocado.
What a beautiful...
I mean, I could talk to youforever.

I know.

I think this is such a, a perfect way to wrap
up, and I mean, I am thinking somany things, and I'm really
excited for people to hear this.
Because you've given us someactual strategies teachers can
use right now.
You've given us some strategiesthat leaders and coaches can use
with the teachers they help.
Like, these are reallypractical.
And I just, I just think it'sgonna be, it...

(45:45):
I, I just think that's it.
The challenge is theopportunity.
You know, your anxiety and pasttraumas are, are yielding to a
sacred moment that is happeningfor you right now.
And I think that reframing ofinstead of going into it with
the energy of avoidance andresistance is the opening of
being like,"All right, I'm in.
I'm, I'm surrendering to thissacred moment.

(46:06):
Let's see what opportunity itpresents," and that's all you
have to do.

Beautiful.

Ugh.
Okay.
We are wrapping up with thefinal two questions I ask
everyone.
Okay.
You've got 30 seconds.
That's...
It's not a timed test.
You have as long as you want-but, like, you don't have to...
Question number one is ifthere's one thing you could
change about the way math istaught in schools, what would it
be?

Oh, my.
One thing I could change.
I, I mean, this is probablysome- pe- people say this
probably a lot, but, like, makeit practical.
How the hell will I be usingthis?
That's why I checked out.
I was like,"This is not mypath." But I sit down to do my
taxes every year and it stressesme out.
So yes, that.

Well, we could...
I don't know why we're notteaching people how to do their
fucking taxes.

Yeah, or save, or, like, what are the, like, co-
like, we just renewed ourmortgage.
Like, that was a full lesson.

I still don't get my mortgage.
I- I still don't even know whatthe fuck's going on.

I know.

Fuck.
Yeah.
Okay.
Love it.
Make it practical.
All right, number two, ifsomeone listened to this whole
thing and they were like,"Yeah,I get it.
I get what she's saying.
but I...
Honestly, I just think I'm not amath person," what would you
say?

Oh, wow.
I would say that math isfundamental to the universe, so
everyone has it in you.
And use it as an entry point tounderstand yourself more.

What a beautiful way to put it.
That's so nice.
I love you so much.
I love you so much.
Okay, and that's a wrap.
That's it.
That's all she wrote.
I mean, I...
Okay.
Guys, I really want you to textthe podcast.
So I feel like I'm gonna leavethis and I'm gonna have a
million things I wish I'd asked.
So we wanna hear from you.
You have Amy...
I was gonna say you have Amy atyour beck and call.
That's actually not true.
Um, but I could probablyconvince her to be back on the

(47:42):
pod.

Definitely.

Send us your questions.
I mean, is Amy not the mostamazing?
I'm sorry, guys, she's my bestfriend.
You can't have her.
but you can learn more about theamazing Amy Johnston by heading
to the show notes and findingout more.
We've got links in there.
We've got some info about her.
And guys, I just wanna say thankyou so much for being here.
Thank you for listening past theTI giveaway, which I know a lot

(48:06):
of you came here for.
And I know you probably couldnot stop listening to this
episode because Amy dropped somuch knowledge, and I would love
to know what your takeaways are.
So feel free to hit that Text Usbutton again, and let me know
what your biggest takeaway fromthis episode was.
Did it change your perspectiveon something?
Did it give you a little bit ofhealing?

(48:27):
And did it give you a littleimpetus to try something new
this summer?
All right.
Next week, I will be here, sametime, same place, same channel.
In the meantime, you can joinour Facebook group.
We're almost at 500 members.
Just head to Facebook, type inMath Therapy, click Join, and
you'll be let in.
It's an amazing community ofpeople supporting one another.

(48:47):
You can find me on Instagram@themathguru.
And you should know that thisepisode was produced by the one
and only David Kochberg, andwhile I was recording the intro
and outro, there wereconstruction noises the entire
time, so if you can't hear them,that's because David is awesome.
And I should also tell you thatthe music you're listening to
right now is by our band.

(49:09):
Me and David have a band.
It's called Goodnight Sunrise,so look us up, stream us.
Maybe it's, like, your newsummer soundtrack.
Okay.
Love you guys.
You're amazing.
You're awesome.
Thank you for all the work youdo.
You are making a difference, andthank you for listening to this
during the summer months.
It just shows how dedicated youare to doing the work because
you are a teacher through andthrough.

(49:29):
You are a healer through andthrough, and I just think you're
the best.

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