July 9, 2026 • 35 mins
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Prior to spontaneously recording this convo between sessions at CAMT in Fort Worth, TX recently, Vanessa and today's guest Cathy Marks Krpan had only really spent time together while frantically travelling through airports trying to make their connections.
And in between panicked pleas to airport golf carts and documenting every detail on Instagram, one thing kept coming up - how the stress and uncertainty of air travel held so many parallels with the anxiety we feel in math class.
Cathy has an incredibly warm & empathetic approach to teaching and shares inspiring insights on:
- sitting with the unknown
- empowering people with choice & agency
- treating students like the complex, emotional humans they are
About Cathy: (Website, Instagram)
An award-winning author and former classroom teacher, Cathy Marks Krpan is a professor at the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education, at the University of Toronto, where she teaches graduate courses in mathematics education. She works with classroom teachers and school districts across North America and internationally on effective teaching and learning strategies in mathematics.
Contact us:
- Vanessa Vakharia: Instagram, TikTok, Email
- Math Therapy: Text the Podcast
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Cathy Marks Krpan (00:03):
what's really important is to get to know each
kid as best as we can, eachstudent as best...
as a person, as a human being.
Vanessa Vakharia (00:14):
Hello, and welcome to today's episode of
Math Therapy, coming to youstraight from Fort Worth, Texas,
where I'm speaking at the CAMTMath Education Conference.
My friend Dr.
Cathy Marks Krpan and I haveactually snuck into an empty
conference room betweensessions.
There is a very loudpresentation happening next
door, and I am just praying thismic does not pick it up,
otherwise David is going to killme.
(00:35):
Now, why have we decided torecord this completely impromptu
episode?
Well, Cathy and I have this veryweird thing going on.
See, we're both from Toronto,but we basically never see each
other there.
In fact, we've only ever beentogether in person twice, and
both times have been inairports.
The first time was in Texasafter this very conference last
(00:56):
year.
The second time was in theToronto airport on our way here
just a few days ago.
The weird part is that bothtimes we've traveled together,
something completely ridiculoushas happened.
Last year was literal chaos.
You know the, like, airportlittle buses, like the buggies
that they drive around?
We convinced two guys to driveus to our gate on it, and we
made it to our flight withthirty seconds to spare.
(01:17):
Now, this year, somehow,basically the same thing.
Mechanical issue aftermechanical issue, sitting on the
tarmac forever, just one ofthose travel days where you're
convinced you're never actuallygetting where you're supposed to
go.
And both times, we've foundourselves texting each other
from different rows on the planesaying,"This is exactly like
math education.
This is exactly like teachingmath." Which got me wondering,
(01:37):
like, I wonder if Cathy meansthe same thing by that as I do.
So we thought,"Why not sneakinto a conference room between
sessions and find out live onthe pod?" Now, if you don't
already know Cathy, you are infor such a treat because Dr.
Cathy Marks-Krpan is a formerclassroom teacher, now a
professor at OISE, which is theOntario Institute for Studies in
Education at the University ofToronto, and she teaches
(01:59):
graduate courses in matheducation.
She works with teachers inschool districts across North
America and around the world,helping them create richer, more
meaningful mathematical learningexperiences.
She is the real deal, guys.
Honestly, she is one of thecoolest people I know.
She reminds me so much of my ownhigh school math teacher.
She has, like, this spark, thisenergy, this passion for helping
(02:19):
every student believe they canthink mathematically.
She's thoughtful, she's funny,she's brilliant, and every
conversation with her leaves meseeing things a little
differently.
If you're looking for a littlespark this summer, a little
reminder of why you fell in lovewith teaching in the first
place, or if you've everwondered how an airport disaster
could possibly have anything todo with teaching math, this
episode is for you.
So without further ado, here ismy friend, my fellow Canadian,
(02:42):
and one of the coolest women Iknow, Dr.
Cathy Marks-Krpan.
Here's why we're telling youabout this, not just that we
want you to be in awe of ourreality show that we should
have, but because the entiretime, me- Cathy and I were like,
"This is basically a metaphorfor teaching math."
Cathy Marks Krpan (02:59):
It is.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:59):
Tell me what you were thinking.
Cathy Marks Krpan (03:00):
I was thinking of several layers to
this.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:04):
Let's go.
Cathy Marks Krpan (03:04):
One is they get on the announcement and
said,"We..." Something to dowith the engine.
It was,"Wah, wah, wah, wah,engine.
Wah, wah, wah, wah, 30 minutes."And I wonder how many kids sit
in math class while we saysomething that we understand as
educators, that this is clear,it's very easy, and the kids are
(03:27):
hearing,"Wah, wah, wah, wah,wah." Mm.
And so, and that can lead to alot of different things.
And then the other piece is thewhole unknown, right?
Sitting on that plane, notknowing if we're gonna be taking
off or not, and that unknownpiece.
And, and sitting- And feeling alittle stressed about that.
(03:47):
We were a little stressed aboutit
Vanessa Vakharia (03:49):
Sure.
Like, you're, you're mentallygoing through all the options of
what can happen And, and I,
Cathy Marks Krpan (03:52):
and we're, and we're grown adults- Yeah
that can rational- that we haveat least, we can, we can reason,
we can think clearly about,"Okay, these are our options."
But a lot of times, kids in theclassroom don't always have
those kinds of thinkingskillsets readily available to
them.
But-
Vanessa Vakharia (04:09):
They're just panicking in the moment
Cathy Marks Krpan (04:10):
Right, right.
Yeah.
And, and we think, oh, you know,from my perspective or anyone
else in the classroom, sometimeswhen we're teaching we think,
"You know, I, this is prettystraightforward.
This is really easy." Butsitting with the unknown, right?
Sit- being comfortable with theunknown, whether you're an adult
or a student in the classroom,whether it's math or anything
else, that can be verystressful.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:32):
Now, you're talking about the student
perspective-
Cathy Marks Krpan (04:34):
Correct
Vanessa Vakharia (04:34):
right?
So let's go back to the whomp,whomp, whomp engine,'cause you
were texting me being like,"We,they are not asking us what
we're thinking." That's it.
They're not, right?
So tell me more about thatmoment of like, so a kid is
sitting in class, let's say, andthey're just hearing you blabber
some stuff and blah, like,"Whomp, whomp, whomp fractions.
Whomp, whomp, whomp a quarter."What would you prefer?
Like, let's imagine now go backto us on the plane.
(04:57):
What should have happened therethat would've helped us?
Cathy Marks Krpan (04:59):
First, first of all, I think there should've
been,"Does anyone have anyquestions?" And I know people
don't do that.
Vanessa Vakharia (05:04):
That's such a good idea.
Cathy Marks Krpan (05:04):
They don't do that on airlines'cause they
don't want our questions.
Vanessa Vakharia (05:09):
But teachers, they think all the-
Cathy Marks Krpan (05:09):
Because we would have damn fine questions
to ask.
Like, do I get a reimbursement?
Vanessa Vakharia (05:15):
Like- Or like, tell us exactly what's wrong
with the engine And
Cathy Marks Krpan (05:17):
I was thinking, rightly so, there's
gonna be a high demand on thefood and, but by the time it
came to my seat, there washardly anything left, which is a
whole other thing.
But yes-
Vanessa Vakharia (05:26):
That has nothing to do with what we're
talking about, but I love thatyou needed to get that out
there.
Cathy Marks Krpan (05:29):
No, it was important.
Vanessa Vakharia (05:29):
Air Canada, I hope you're listening.
Cathy Marks Krpan (05:31):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (05:31):
Okay.
Cathy Marks Krpan (05:32):
They always listen to me.
It's always that way.
Vanessa Vakharia (05:34):
Okay, so what, what if they had asked, okay,
tell me if they-
Cathy Marks Krpan (05:37):
So what are you thinking?
How are you feeling?
Um, is there anything...
Uh, they did come with water,which was nice, but just,
there's never any, there's notenough information to calm me
down on an airplane, and I justthink in teaching that parallels
very nicely because I'm surethere are kids, even though we
are very explicit sometimes in,in what we do and we ask,"Are
(05:58):
there any questions?" A lot ofkids aren't gonna ask the
questions'cause they feel thatthey're gonna be singled out and
they don't wanna do that.
But even just having them writesomething down and just say,
"What are you thinking at thismoment?
Write it down.
Give them cue cards out.
Let me see what's, what's goingon."
Vanessa Vakharia (06:11):
Well, this is also making me think of like
they're giving us on the planelike just kind of a surface
level explanation.
It's- Right?
They're like, they kept saying,like after the engine thing,
they kept saying technicaldifficulties.
Yeah.
We didn't know what technical-Yes like is the air conditioner
broken?
Is it the like lighting?
Yes.
Is it the actual-
Cathy Marks Krpan (06:26):
Is the wing falling off the plane?
Like, we don't know.
We don't know.
And I am not the, I mean, I amc- I'm a calm flyer pretty much,
but, but- When these thingsstart happening, things start
racing through my brain.
Right.
And I start thinking about whatif this happens?
(06:47):
What if this happens?
And I'm just thinking about kidsin the classroom with math.
Like, oh my gosh, what if I haveto share?
What if I have to do this and Idon't know what's gonna happen
next?
Sometimes that can- Hmm.
I think we don't take that intoconsideration enough.
I think because we, the persong- doing the wah, wah, wah
engine, wah, wah, wah, wingfalling off- they have an
(07:10):
insight of what is happening-Yeah and it's calm for them.
Vanessa Vakharia (07:14):
Well, I'm, you know what this reminds me of?
To me, okay, sorry, this isgonna be such a, a niche topic
for the high school teachers.
I fucking hate how we teachSOHCAHTOA before we actually
teach the sine, cos, and tanfunction.
So kids are just like, they'relike,"What?" And you're like,
"Don't worry, just type in sine60.
Just press the sine button onyour calculator." Yeah,
(07:34):
everything's gonna be great.
"It's all gonna be fine." Theydon't know that sine is actually
a function.
It's a gr- like they have noclue and we're just like,"Wah,
wah, wah SOHCAHTOA.
Wah, wah, wah- Yeah sine, cos,tan." And I think we d- so first
of all, I'm using that, thatbecause that example really
pisses me off, but we do it witha lot of things.
Keep, change, flip.
Just flip, right?
Yep.
Yeah, yeah.
Just flip and multiply whenyou're dinin- dividing the
(07:55):
fractions, it's gonna work.
Cathy Marks Krpan (07:56):
Don't ask why.
Vanessa Vakharia (07:56):
Don't ask why, right?
We don't wanna hear yourquestions.
Here's a sip of water, end ofstory.
We don't even do that part.
But do you know what I mean?
I know.
So it's-
Cathy Marks Krpan (08:02):
Like keep s- keep in your seat and put your
seatbelt on.
Vanessa Vakharia (08:04):
It's true.
And, and-
Cathy Marks Krpan (08:05):
Yeah, why are we doing this?
Vanessa Vakharia (08:05):
And so we're thinking like kids are often
thinking to themselves, numberone, why?
But I also like what you said ofwhat's going to happen next.
Like what am I...
I'd like to know what I'm goingto have to do next.
Do I have to produce an answer?
Do I have to share it with theclass?
Mm-hmm.
Like I think there's a lot ofclassroom practices- Yeah that
kids are scared are going tohappen.
Cathy Marks Krpan (08:24):
Yeah, and I, I think we underestimate that
sometimes.
Like I just think, again, we'readults in a plane, right?
We, we sort of have a, a, abroader view of what's happening
and what could happen, and yetwe still get anxious about it.
Vanessa Vakharia (08:39):
Yeah.
Cathy Marks Krpan (08:39):
Right?
And I think that just made methink like about kids and
learning, and we thought theplane is the classroom, right?
We're, we're the students.
Vanessa Vakharia (08:48):
We're the students.
Cathy Marks Krpan (08:49):
And-
Vanessa Vakharia (08:49):
The people in charge are just all like-
Cathy Marks Krpan (08:51):
And the pilot could be like the director of
education, and then the-
Vanessa Vakharia (08:55):
Oh,
Cathy Marks Krpan (08:55):
wow the s- the, the, the flight attendants,
the teachers perhaps.
Vanessa Vakharia (08:59):
Or like the teacher's assistants maybe.
Cathy Marks Krpan (09:00):
Maybe.
So who's the teacher then?
Vanessa Vakharia (09:02):
Well, they're also the teachers.
Cathy Marks Krpan (09:04):
Okay.
We're
Vanessa Vakharia (09:04):
not sure.
We're not sure.
They're the teachers.
I, I mean, I think, because the,the people giving us the
information are the teachers, itkind of feels like the pilot
You're right.
I like that.
They're the leader, and then theteachers are just doing the,
the, um, the flight attendantsare doing as they're told.
Cathy Marks Krpan (09:19):
Yeah.
Right?
And I was so curious.
Like, you could see It wasreally fascinating because the,
um, cab- the cabin, thecaptain's cabin, was open.
The cockpit?
Cockpit, yeah.
Yeah,
Vanessa Vakharia (09:27):
okay, okay.
Cathy Marks Krpan (09:28):
Yeah.
You say potato, I say potato.
But yeah, I think that's abetter word for it.
And I just was fascinated withthe And you just wonder, like,
what's going on in there?
Like, what is happening?
Vanessa Vakharia (09:37):
Right.
Cathy Marks Krpan (09:37):
Like, there's lights flashing.
Should we be concerned that thatlight is flashing from where I
am?
Vanessa Vakharia (09:41):
So can I ask you a question?
Cathy Marks Krpan (09:42):
You sure can.
Vanessa Vakharia (09:42):
What are, when- Are you nervous that
something bad is gonna happen tothe plane, or are you nervous
that your plan is gonna bederailed?
Cathy Marks Krpan (09:49):
No, I'm, I'm, I'm nervous that I'm gonna
probably, yeah, that something'sgonna happen to the plane, I'm
gonna die.
That's basically it.
I, I'm not-
Vanessa Vakharia (09:55):
Really?
Cathy Marks Krpan (09:55):
I, I love flying.
I'm very calm.
I love it, but when somethinghappens that's not normal, my
mind starts racing about whatthat could be.
Yeah.
Like, I remember as a kid, if Iwas on a plane, again, and I, I
was telling my dad,"Oh my God,what's this?" I hear bump, bump,
bump, bump, bump.
"Oh, don't worry about it.
It's called turbulence.
(10:16):
It's like," but,"It's like goingover bumps when you're in a
car." And I remember as a kidthinking,"Hell to no, it's not
like that." Like, we're 3,000,30,000 feet above the earth.
Vanessa Vakharia (10:26):
So you, okay.
So this also makes me think too,like, especially looking at that
childhood mind of, like,something we think is, like, a
rational thing to say, like,"Oh,don't worry about it.
It just works out.
You just keep, change, flip, andit's going to work out." Yeah.
"You just do this."
Cathy Marks Krpan (10:39):
You gotta trust.
Gotta trust.
Vanessa Vakharia (10:40):
You gotta trust.
Kids are not feeling that vibe.
Cathy Marks Krpan (10:43):
No.
Vanessa Vakharia (10:43):
And they are probably thinking something they
can't articulate, like,"That'snot good enough for me," or,"Why
should I trust it?" And I thinkonce they don't- Yeah trust
something and they don't under-Because here's the other thing.
We keep telling everyone, we areborn as natural problem-solvers.
Kids inherently love to do mathbefore- Yeah it gets, like,
scared out of them.
They like to solve problems.
They like to understand.
(11:03):
We like understanding.
So when we do that to a kid oran adult, when we just shut that
down by saying,"Just don'tworry.
Just believe me." Yeah, yeah.
"And just stay chill and do whatI say," that actually, I think,
kills the curiosity theyinnately have.
Cathy Marks Krpan (11:16):
Yeah, for sure.
For sure.
And we're not equipping themwith skillsets and the ability
to sort of navigate and sitcomfortable with the unknown,
which is important too- But doyou- to give them skillsets
Vanessa Vakharia (11:28):
do you think we do that?
Like, do you think in the planesituation they're doing that
because they don't understand?
Like, you know how sometimesteachers do that'cause they're
like,"Don't ask me questions'cause I actually don't know"?
Cathy Marks Krpan (11:37):
That's possible, and it's just to keep
everyone calm, like me-
Vanessa Vakharia (11:40):
Right
Cathy Marks Krpan (11:41):
on the plane.
And I just wanna say for therecord, I, I don't mind flying.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:44):
Yeah, we know.
Cathy Marks Krpan (11:46):
But stop it.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:47):
We, you've said it a few times.
Cathy Marks Krpan (11:49):
But I just
Vanessa Vakharia (11:50):
You know, it's funny you say this,'cause I
don't know you that well, andmost of our interactions have
been on these two flights.
Okay?
But what I will say is this.
So you took the analogy in thisway.
The way I was thinking about itis I was like, to me, it feels
like something on the teacherend.
Like, we are so uncomfortablewith uncertainty on that plane.
(12:10):
Like, you're like,"I need toknow what's gonna happen." Yeah.
You're kind of thinking theworst is gonna happen.
To me, it kind of reminded me ofwhen, like, a lesson gets
derailed.
Cathy Marks Krpan (12:16):
Right.
Absolutely.
It's, it's that whole piece andthe expectation that everyone's
treated the same, everybody hasto sit in their seats, everybody
blah, blah, blah, and just don'tinterfere
Vanessa Vakharia (12:28):
but what's interesting to me is in both of
these circumstances, things haveworked out for the best, and
we've had a great story to tell,and it's like we've gotten to
where everything's fine, but youstill in both situations so
quickly started thinking theworst.
Cathy Marks Krpan (12:43):
Absolutely.
Because, I mean, I'm justsaying, I just, I like to know.
The more information I have-
Vanessa Vakharia (12:50):
Yes
Cathy Marks Krpan (12:51):
the less stress I, stressed I become.
Vanessa Vakharia (12:54):
So I act-
Cathy Marks Krpan (12:54):
So- Yeah that's it.
Like-
Vanessa Vakharia (12:57):
If they had said,"We're having technical
difficulties.
The air conditioning isn'tworking-
Cathy Marks Krpan (13:02):
Yeah, we gotta figure that out
Vanessa Vakharia (13:02):
and we just wanna make sure you don't have a
hot flight," wouldn't you havefelt so much better?
Cathy Marks Krpan (13:05):
Yes, yes.
Vanessa Vakharia (13:06):
Cause you're like,"Oh, it's-"
Cathy Marks Krpan (13:07):
If you trust the person saying that.
Is it a coverup for somethingbigger?
We don't know, right?
Vanessa Vakharia (13:12):
Yeah, so it sounds like you're a very
suspicious person.
Cathy Marks Krpan (13:14):
Well, I'm, even as a kid, going on, um...
We have this, this exhibition,it's called the, the Canadian
National Exhibition.
They have all sorts of rides.
Yeah.
It's an amazing place, and Istill go every year.
But I, as a kid, I would not goon any rides, and, and it was
great for my parents'cause I,they, nobody would have to go on
with me.
And the reason was because Ithought,"I'm not getting up in
(13:37):
that contraption.
Anything can happen, and thatperson there is gonna be in
charge of my life." That's how Ithought it at, like, 10, 11
years old, so yeah, I guess-
Vanessa Vakharia (13:47):
That is-
Cathy Marks Krpan (13:47):
it all comes back.
Vanessa Vakharia (13:48):
It does all come back, but I think what you
said is so-
Cathy Marks Krpan (13:50):
Is this a ther- is this a therapy session
Vanessa Vakharia (13:52):
I'm wondering, because I'm like, now this is
actually about trusting theperson in the front of the room.
Cathy Marks Krpan (13:57):
Well, and trusting the person, yes.
Trusting the person in the frontof the room, and how do you
develop that trust?
It's not just...
It, it takes...
It's a journey to develop thattrust.
Vanessa Vakharia (14:07):
But how do you do that with students?
Cathy Marks Krpan (14:09):
You do that with students with getting to
know who they are.
But not only getting to know whothey are, but ensuring that they
know that you are making theeffort to get to know who they
are, and that you are-
Vanessa Vakharia (14:19):
Give me, like, two things you do, or one thing,
your favorite thing.
Cathy Marks Krpan (14:23):
I would sit down.
the kids in my class, they weregrade eight- And they had really
challenging home lives, like tothe point where I could not
survive what some of themexperienced.
Mm.
Like, I, I just...
It was amazing.
If...
When they showed up, it was acelebration in my heart At the
beginning of the year andthroughout the year, I would
(14:44):
have a one-on-one interview witheach student and say,"Here are
some of the things that I'mobserving about you, that I'm
getting to know about you, thatI really like.
And I just wanna tell you thethings that I just really admire
about you." Full stop.
That was it, every time.
And it made a difference.
Um, some of the kids came up tome and said,"It's the first time
(15:04):
anyone has ever told meanything-
Vanessa Vakharia (15:06):
Oh, my God
Cathy Marks Krpan (15:07):
that they like about me.
It's the first time." N- n- notjust even teachers, but anybody.
And so just-
Vanessa Vakharia (15:12):
How old are these kids?
Cathy Marks Krpan (15:13):
Uh, grade eight, so-
Vanessa Vakharia (15:15):
Like middle school, like-
Cathy Marks Krpan (15:16):
Yeah middle school.
Middle school, yeah.
And it made a difference.
But it wasn't just...
It was for me to get to knowthem-
Vanessa Vakharia (15:23):
Mm-hmm
Cathy Marks Krpan (15:24):
and to understand them as much as
possible and to create arelationship, because nothing
was gonna happen in thatclassroom without a relationship
of some sort.
Um-
Vanessa Vakharia (15:35):
And what I'm hearing you say, which is really
interesting, is often, I think,when we think about getting to
know our kids, I'm not sayingthis is wrong, but we think,"Oh,
we need to know, like, whattheir hobbies are and what TV
shows they watch." But I thinkthat's one way of getting to
know them, but what I'm hearingyou say is simply observing and
being able to point out what youunderstand about their
character.
Cathy Marks Krpan (15:52):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (15:52):
Like things- Yeah that they might not see in
themselves.
Like,"You're a really funnyperson- Yes or you're..." You
know what I mean?
Like-
Cathy Marks Krpan (15:57):
Yes.
All of that.
See- And, and, and, and, andit's gonna be different for each
kid.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:02):
Mm-hmm.
Cathy Marks Krpan (16:02):
And that I'm not just saying,"Oh, everybody's
so great.
I really love you.
I love the way you're engaging.
I love all this stuff." No.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:08):
Well, hold on.
Yeah, tell me what's wrong withthat or what you don't love
about that approach.
Cathy Marks Krpan (16:12):
I feel it's superficial.
Too general.
I feel it's the wah, wah, wah,wah.
And I think what's reallyimportant is to get to know each
kid as best as we can, eachstudent as best...
as a person, as a human being.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:24):
So talk to the-
Cathy Marks Krpan (16:25):
And that takes work.
That takes work.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:26):
Well, and I'm sure there's, there's teachers
listening who are like,"I wouldlove to, but, like, I've got
like four classes of 30 kids.
How do I do that?"
Cathy Marks Krpan (16:33):
So you don't have to get to everybody every
day.
So I might do two kids a day.
Two kids a day, just sit downand just have that one-on-one.
Or sometimes what I would do issay, um, you know,"Does anyone
wanna chat?" You know, and theyknew what that meant.
They knew what that meant, andthey, they could come up and
say,"Yeah, let's chat." So Ijust, it, yeah, it doesn't take
much.
(16:54):
And I know we always encouragewhen they're at work and when
they're doing things, but to me,that connection of talking to
them and them talking to me andsaid,"What are some things that,
you know, you're concerned aboutin the class or anything like
that, and let's have a con-conversation that way." So they
get to know.
So there was one student.
And the other thing I always do,they didn't have to stay in
(17:16):
their desks because it justdidn't work.
It didn't work with this classto stay in their desks.
It wasn't their way.
So I would just say,"Huddle up."So they would come.
When we would teach, when Iwould teach math, they would
come.
Some would be on the floor, somewould be on desks, some would be
on chairs they'd bring up, butwe'd just be in a really nice,
intimate, intimate community,like, just close together.
(17:40):
And that's so much nicer thanlike,"Hello, back there.
You know, do you know the a-"And it was great for class
management too, right?
But...
Vanessa Vakharia (17:48):
Well, y- so going back to that idea of
connection because even whatyou're saying- Yeah about the
huddling, that also has to dowith connection.
It has to do with everybodysorta like being together.
It kinda gets rid of the, um,like the hierarchy of like
you're at the back, you're atthe front.
Cathy Marks Krpan (18:01):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (18:01):
I know this might seem really obvious, but I
think, I- I- I think there are,are a lot of folks, and I
completely understand why, Ithink at a certain point I
wasn't able to explain, and Iwould love to hear from you why
you think this is important.
Because I know that there isthis idea of, we don't have time
for connection.
We've gotta teach content.
Tell us why it actually, likeyou said, nothing would've
(18:23):
happened in this class withoutme getting to know my students.
What, tell me how it worked.
Like, why did it make thatdifference?
Cathy Marks Krpan (18:29):
Because it, it built that trust, and it
brought down some walls thatthese kids had up.
I mean, they were tough kids.
They, yeah, they were, theywere...
I learned so much from them,right?
I remember, and, and I rememberat the time, um, they, I would,
I would call home as well, andthey were,"Miss M?" I said,
(18:54):
"Yeah, put your mom," orwhoever's on the, your guardian,
whoever- Yeah your caretaker,and I would say something
positive to that person aboutthat child, that student, that
whatever.
And it, yeah, it takes time, butI, I'm, I'm not there just to
teach the content and, and Ibelieved in that, and so I took
the time, and it took a lot oftime.
(19:15):
Yeah, it did, but it builtrelationships, and those kids
felt seen.
Um, they felt respected.
Did we still have classroommanagement issues?
Yes.
But- It happened throughhumanity.
It was a more, it was just aconnection.
So-and-so, you know,"Sorry,miss." Like that kind of thing.
Vanessa Vakharia (19:35):
Yeah.
A- 100%.
And it's so funny, we, likeliterally an hour ago, I was
like,"You know what, Cathy?
You remind me of my high schoolmath teacher," and that was what
she would do.
She always made a point to callhome to say something nice.
Yeah, yeah.
I remember my parents, the firsttime it happened, it was the
first time a teacher had eversaid anything nice about me to
them.
Before, it was all, the onlyreason to call home is if
(19:57):
there's a problem.
Cathy Marks Krpan (19:58):
Yeah,
Vanessa Vakharia (19:58):
yeah.
And it really changes thedynamic because not only, like,
does it build trust with theparents, who often are like,
"What is happening in thisclassroom?" But the student is
like,"Oh my God, this teacher ison my side."
Cathy Marks Krpan (20:12):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:12):
Right?
She's not just there to, like,berate me or to make me feel bad
or whatever.
Like, she's got my back.
She wants me to feel good.
Cathy Marks Krpan (20:17):
But we're there to teach kids, and I just
love...
And even with my grad students,even with my pre-service
students, I love getting to knowwho they are beyond just the
classroom.
I think that's just important.
That's about being human.
That's about building theserelationships.
And I know we're busy, but Ithink it makes a lot of
difference for these kids.
(20:38):
I don't...
The content will get taught, butI think the relationships and
trust, I think that goes a longway.
I really do.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:46):
Well, and I always say it's like, yes, it
takes time, but it also takestime to have to reteach
something over and over againbecause no one's paying
attention.
Yeah.
And when people feel seen,they're more likely to pay
attention, right?
Yeah.
They're more likely to take thatrisk to try because there is
that trust, and I, I think inthe end you save time.
Cathy Marks Krpan (21:02):
Absolutely.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:03):
I really do think in the end you save time.
If you look at the year as awhole, maybe it's like you're
front-loading the time'causeyou've gotta get to know them,
you gotta make the phone calls,you gotta do the interviews, but
they're going to be moreengaged, which means you're
gonna save time.
Cathy Marks Krpan (21:14):
It was a f- yeah, and it was a fascinating
year because the other thingthat I've never shared all these
stories, but the other thing...
see that?
You get an exclusive.
Um.
The other thing I would do, justbecause I, I just enjoyed it,
um, I would stay in my class...
Okay, two things.
Number one, I didn't have ateacher's desk.
It was out of the classroombecause-
Vanessa Vakharia (21:35):
Very Peter Liljedahl of you
Cathy Marks Krpan (21:37):
I feel that the teacher's desk is always
placed at a location that isprime real estate in the
classroom.
It's by the window.
It's by somewhere.
I want my kids to have that realestate.
I don't want it.
So, I took that out, and I justhad bins, which was great.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:52):
Bins for what?
To sit on?
Cathy Marks Krpan (21:53):
Bins, no.
Bins to put my stuff in.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:56):
Oh, okay.
Cathy Marks Krpan (21:56):
And my students didn't use the desk.
You know, when they put sh- shitin the desks-
Vanessa Vakharia (22:00):
Yeah, yeah, yeah
Cathy Marks Krpan (22:00):
and you have to clean out their desk?
Boom.
So, I had bins.
Their math book for, for, werein the bins and whatever.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:04):
What grade are you talking about?
Still middle school?
Cathy Marks Krpan (22:06):
It could be middle school, so I had 7-1,
7-2, 8-1, 8-2.
But even when I taught, um,grade four, grade five, grade-
Okay grade three, everything wasin the bins.
Okay.
So, if I wanted their languagearts notebook, it was there.
Um, but it, it was just, um,over lunch, um, at the, the
middle school level I would, Iwould eat my lunch in the
(22:26):
classroom and I said,"If anybodywants to come in and do work or
whatever, or hang out, you can,"and they would.
And it was really fascinating tome, um, over recess,"Miss, can I
come in?" Because you'd heartheir conversations, right?
I'm right there.
I mean- So you're learning stuffabout them and about real, like,
it's like Real Housewives kindof thing, so it's-
Vanessa Vakharia (22:45):
I was gonna say, it's your own reality show,
but it's productive because youwant to get to know them.
Cathy Marks Krpan (22:50):
It was amazing.
It was amazing.
And I'd say,"You know I'm here.""Yes, Miss.
We know you're here, but we'reg- we're, we wanna talk
about..." Okay, fine.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:56):
So you're not making Because, I mean,
obviously you need a break, soyou're kind of like,"I, you're,
I'm, you're not gonna ask me forhelp, but feel free to sit near
me and also eat your lunch."
Cathy Marks Krpan (23:03):
Yeah, or just sit in the classroom.
We'd play music.
I'd play music, and it was justgreat, and that's another way
we've just built...
I just loved it.
It was so great.
I love being- In the classroom
Vanessa Vakharia (23:12):
You were just the be- We, we- I'm still
really, I wanna hang on to, likeI'm still really thinking about
this idea of like when we saygetting to know our students, it
can mean so many things.
It can mean finding out whattheir favorite TV show is.
It can mean finding out if theyhave siblings.
It can mean just hearing themtalk and being like,"Oh my God,
I'm really noticing that likeshe's the one in the group that
keeps making everyone laugh."Like, do you know what I mean?
(23:33):
Yeah, yeah.
Like, it can be any of thosethings.
Like, you can learn throughobservation.
And like I always say this aboutcompliments.
You remember how earlier youwere like,"It's really
superficial to just be like,'Oh,I notice you're engaged'"?
Yeah.
If I like said to you, like,"Youlook really great today," that'd
be fine.
Cathy Marks Krpan (23:47):
Well, thank you.
Vanessa Vakharia (23:48):
Right.
But if I was like,"I love yourhair." Yeah, yeah.
Like, the colors in it- Yeah arereally making your eyes pop,
it's like that's for you.
Cathy Marks Krpan (23:56):
Yeah, yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (23:56):
Right?
Yeah.
And so like to make sure you'resaying something like that to a
student for them to be like,"Wow, she really sees me."
Cathy Marks Krpan (24:02):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (24:03):
It's not just lip service.
And because she really sees me,I feel like I actually have
value here.
Cathy Marks Krpan (24:08):
Yeah, absolutely, and maybe they'll
start seeing other people aswell.
Mm.
Like, maybe it, it continues,right, the journey and
everything that's happening and,and, you know, when they're
upset and so-and-so's not goingto the dance because of
so-and-so.
And that all comes into play,right?
When they come in thatclassroom, whatever, whatever
grade level it is, what'shappening on the outside, what's
(24:29):
happening at recess, that comesin, and that's part of the
journey that we're taking withour students.
And you can't, yeah and I stilldo that.
I still do that even with myuniversity students.
Like,"Oh, something's off today.
I don't fee- I feel somethingis...
Are you, are you okay?" And whenwe st- and then s- all of a
sudden something happened thatblah blah blah blah, and they
want me to know and whatever.
(24:50):
So-
Vanessa Vakharia (24:50):
And that's so, that, I think this is part of
that conversation of you ca-like you said, we're teaching
kids, not content.
Cathy Marks Krpan (24:55):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (24:55):
We're teaching people, so you, you can't If you
wanna be like,"Well, their livesand who they are have nothing to
do with content," like, you'regonna be very disappointed to
find out that a lesson justmight not land.
Cathy Marks Krpan (25:05):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (25:06):
Because stuff, if something's going on with us,
it's going on with us period.
Cathy Marks Krpan (25:10):
We're hu- we're, we're emotional beings.
Yeah.
And, and, and math tends to be,as you very well know, um, an
anxiety-provoking- Yeah kind ofthing.
Um, and it's the way it's taughtsometimes.
It's, it's past experiences thatpeople have.
And by the time students get toeven grade four or grade five,
grade si- they've alreadysolidified how they think of
(25:33):
school, how they think ofteachers, how they think of
mathematics.
So I'd like to be that person tokind of undo that a little bit
if there's some negativitythere- Mm-hmm and just sort of
sit with that.
Because the best classroommanagement strategies are not
gonna work if the kids do nottrust who we are, if the
students don't trust who we are,or even know who we are, right?
(25:56):
It's about us taking the riskand sharing who we are as well
and, and that kind of thing.
Vanessa Vakharia (26:01):
Yeah.
What's a good, like, first thingfor someone to share if we have
someone listening who's like,"Inever tell my students anything
about me.
Like, I don't want them to knowpersonal stuff about me"?
Cathy Marks Krpan (26:10):
I just think, you know, what did you do on the
we- what did everybody do on theweekend?
Here's something I did on theweekend, or here's something Oh,
you know, I'm trying to learn tocook, or I'm trying to learn to
do this, or I'm trying to learnto do that.
And I think photos of differentthings, if you have pets.
I know that sounds superficial,but it connects a bit to, uh-
Vanessa Vakharia (26:27):
It humanizes you, right?
This...
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like, it's like sometimes wedon't humanize the students, and
often the students don'thumanize teachers.
They're like,"It's just thisperson, this gremlin trying to,
like, force me to do fractions."
Cathy Marks Krpan (26:36):
Can I tell you a st- Of I like clothing,
and I like just ensembles,putting things together.
Vanessa Vakharia (26:40):
We both have full-size suitcases for a
three-day trip.
Cathy Marks Krpan (26:43):
That, this is true.
Manipulatives aside.
And so my students would takenotice of what I would wear.
And the reason why I think I'mgonna dress as best I can, like
I do for anybody, uh, becauseone time when I was teaching,
um, the students noticed that Iwas dressed up better than
(27:04):
usual,'cause I had an interviewor something.
"Oh, I, you know, I have anappointment." And then another
day I came in dressed up andthinking,"Oh, she must have
another appointment." It made merealize, you know what?
I shouldn't be dressing forappointments.
You're my most importantappointment.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:17):
Oh, my God.
Cathy Marks Krpan (27:18):
So that's why I just try...
and I, and I don't mean, like,you know, Gucci and whatever.
I'm just saying just to look-
Vanessa Vakharia (27:25):
Yeah
Cathy Marks Krpan (27:26):
whatever it means to look and dress for that
individual, that would be what Iwould do for my students, so I
was teaching grade eights.
And they would say,"Miss, Miss."like one time I wore, said,"Oh,
Miss, like that color's toobright, Miss.
Oh my gosh.""Like shut down thelights, man.""Like what's going
on?" Miss, Miss, that's like a 4out of 10.""4 out of 10?
(27:47):
This is a 4 out of 10?" And I,and I, and I wrote 4 out of 10
on the board.
And so the next day we'd have 4out of 10, and I said,"Okay,
we're gonna..." Right.
This is horrible, but I- itworked.
Said,"What about this outfit?
What do you think?""Miss, that'sa 6.""Why is it a 6?" We put
the- and we did like de- Itaught decimals that way.
Vanessa Vakharia (28:06):
Okay.
Cathy Marks Krpan (28:07):
So, so that we would, like, and we did.
So then one time I'm gettingready and I'm thinking,"What am
I gonna wear?" And I asked Tony,my husband, I said,"You know
what?
I don't know what to wear." Hegoes,"Why don't you wear blah,
blah, blah?" I said,"I'm notwearing blah, blah, blah.
That's a 3 out of 10.""I'm notputting that on." According to
my grade eight student, thatdoesn't even...
But it was, it was an ongoingjoke with us around that.
(28:28):
Um, it wasn't about makingjudgments about people's
clothing, but they, it was a wayto get to these kids-
Vanessa Vakharia (28:35):
What I'm
Cathy Marks Krpan (28:35):
hearing is- and actually make it meaningful
to them,'cause then all of asudden we started having
averages and it was fun.
Vanessa Vakharia (28:41):
Well, what I'm hearing is you did exactly what
you've been talking about thisentire podcast, which is you got
to know them.
Yeah.
You observed that they wereinterested- They were interested
in this thing.
And you were like,"It appearsthat you're really interested in
what I'm wearing." So
Cathy Marks Krpan (28:54):
I c- It doesn't matter what it was.
Like, if I was wearing aMichigan sweatshirt, that was a
big deal to them.
Vanessa Vakharia (28:58):
Yeah.
You noticed what they wereinterested in.
Cathy Marks Krpan (29:01):
They love them, yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (29:01):
And then you took, and also I'd like to say
by you writing those numbers onthe board, they now have
ownership over that.
Cathy Marks Krpan (29:05):
Oh, yeah.
It was funny.
Vanessa Vakharia (29:06):
They created that scale.
Cathy Marks Krpan (29:07):
It was great.
It was great.
Vanessa Vakharia (29:08):
Oh my God, okay, this has been amazing.
I don't know what we've beentalking about for half an hour.
Me too.
It started with...
But let m- uh, you know what?
You're gonna, you're gonna lovehow I'm about to land the plane.
Ah! Okay?
Cathy Marks Krpan (29:19):
You got it on time.
Vanessa Vakharia (29:19):
Because, okay, we on time because what we are
talking about now is flightadjacent.
Because the other thing Cathyhas taught me is about packing,
okay?
She is the one who last yearmade me feel okay about bringing
a full size suitcase.
Cathy Marks Krpan (29:34):
Don't shame people because they have large
suitcases.
Like, what difference does itmake?
You bring on, you know, you beyou.
You bring on your little fatknapsack on the plane- we're
fine with that I'm gonna pack,and even if my suitcase is
empty, I'm gonna live large,fill it up, do what I need to do
(29:55):
because I want choice.
I want choice.
I don't care if choice is aboutsweatshirts, if it's about
jeans, if it's about dresses, ifit's about pants.
I don't care.
I want choice.
That is it.
I make no excuses.
No excuses.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:11):
And how I'm gonna tie this together right
now is in all of the researcharound trauma-informed
education, it has been shownthat one of the key things that
will help an anxious student ora student that is exhibiting
off-task behavior because theirneeds aren't being met is to
give them choice.
Yes.
Choice of any kind, exactly likeshe just said.
It could be the sweatshirts.
It could be what, do you wannawrite with pencil or pen?
(30:33):
Do you wanna work in a group orindividually?
Do you wanna do it on thewhiteboard, or do you wanna do
it on a piece of paper?
Do you wanna work at your seator on the carpet?
That alone.
Do you wanna do this question orthat question?
I've given you 10 questions.
Pick two that you wanna do.
When you do that, a student isalways more likely to do the
task if there is any element ofchoice.
Cathy Marks Krpan (30:51):
Yes.
And we're helping them navigatethe unknown because we're
helping them make decisions ontheir own about different
things, so that is reallycritical.
Vanessa Vakharia (31:01):
We just...
Yeah, no, keep going, but we arelanding.
Just- We are landing the plane
Cathy Marks Krpan (31:04):
just like packing that suitcase, baby.
Vanessa Vakharia (31:06):
Just like packing that suitcase.
Just like packing that suitcase.
Just like us having the choicein the very beginning.
And you know what, to say, Iwould have loved if on a plane,
this is what bothers me whenthere's all these difficulties,
if they would give us choice, ifthey would say something like
"you know what?
You guys can get on the plane oroff the plane while you wait." I
understand logistically theycan't do that sometimes.
Cathy Marks Krpan (31:23):
"Do you want a$10,000 voucher for a hotel or
not?" Like, that's it.
Vanessa Vakharia (31:27):
Or even like, "Do you want water?
Do you want..." Instead of beinglike,"Here's water,""Do you want
a beverage?
Pick.
Do you want a sna-..." Like,"Doyou want this or that?" Like,
"Would you prefer to...
You guys can get up and movearound," instead of just,"Sit
still.
Be quiet.
Don't ask questions.
You have no choice.
You have no agency."
Cathy Marks Krpan (31:43):
Yeah, but there could be laws Like
aviation laws that we don't knowabout that could kibosh
everything
Vanessa Vakharia (31:48):
we just said.
If any pilots are listening tothis podcast, please touch us.
We'd love to hear from you.
If you are a pilot, maybe you'rea teacher with a pilot spouse or
friend- feel free to let us knowwhat you think of our analogy.
Did we land the plane?
We can't wait to hear from you.
Cathy- This is it this was, thiswas so much fun.
This was great.
Did you have fun?
I did.
Oh.
Okay, wait.
Let, let me ask you the questionI ask every podcast guest.
(32:09):
Uh-oh.
Okay?
Before we- Yeah land land.
Okay, we're on the tarmac.
Okay, we're going to the gate.
Question number one (32:13):
What would you say if somebody said to you,
"You know what?
I love everything you're saying,but y- I, I'm just never gonna
get it.
It doesn't matter if I havechoice.
It doesn't matter if that.
I'm just not a math person."
Cathy Marks Krpan (32:26):
I think it's about where you are, look at who
you are, and what you've done.
I think it's about highlightingpast successes- Oof of what
somebody has done, and goinginto the past and saying,"What
do you mean by that?" And Ithink also, and it's about
landing the plane for what wesaid, what do you mean by a math
person?
What is a math person?
'Cause if their understanding isa math person that they have an
(32:49):
applied sci- like a, a mathdegree of some sort, or they're
a physicist, well, in thatcategory that you've created for
yourself, that you are probablynot that kind of math person.
Um, but what do you understand?
Like, what are the otherexamples of what a math person
can be?
Vanessa Vakharia (33:08):
I love it.
And finally, if there's onething, only one thing you could
change about the way math istaught in schools, what would it
be?
Cathy Marks Krpan (33:15):
Humanity.
Make it more human, moreemotionally connected to the
person.
Vanessa Vakharia (33:22):
What perfect timing.
I think a session is about tocome in here right now.
Cathy Marks Krpan (33:25):
Maybe we should-
Vanessa Vakharia (33:25):
Maybe we should just be the session.
Should we just set up aPowerPoint?
Cathy Marks Krpan (33:29):
Yeah.
Quick, quick, quick, right now.
Vanessa Vakharia (33:31):
Safety demonstration.
Cathy Marks Krpan (33:32):
Yeah.
There you go.
Vanessa Vakharia (33:33):
Okay.
You're the best.
Love you.
Bye.
Oh my God, I just love her somuch.
And honestly, I would havecontinued the convo, but, like,
the next session speaker walkedinto the room to set up for his
session.
And while this is unrelated, Iwould like to add that this man
told me he was a schoolprincipal.
And why does that matter to you?
(33:54):
Well, because he asked me what Iwas doing in the room, and I was
like,"Blah, blah, I was justrecording a podcast about math
anxiety." And then he told me,at this math education
conference that we were both at,that he had never heard of math
anxiety, which, like, I don'tknow, I found kind of concerning
as a principal.
I was like,"How is thispossible?" And, like, obviously,
no shade to him.
(34:14):
Obviously, it's never too lateto learn something new, and I
hope he went home and lookedinto it, but it does show us how
much work there is to be donearound understanding the
complicated relationshipstudents have with math.
So at least we're all out heredoing the work.
I hope you guys loved thisimpromptu conversation with
Cathy as much as I did.
Please do text us and tell us ifwe landed the plane and what
(34:35):
your biggest takeaway was.
We wanna hear from you.
I hope you guys are having thebest summer.
Thank you all for making MathTherapy a part of your poolside
PD, and I'll see you next week.
we haven't discussed why wethink that this entire story is
a metaphor for teaching.
Cathy Marks Krpan (34:52):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (34:53):
That's true.
I have to take these braceletsoff'cause David will kill me.
Okay.
Hold the mic, and you can keeptalking.
Okay, so I wanna know-
Cathy Marks Krpan (34:58):
And how, how would he kill you?
That would be another podcast.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:00):
Well, he would get He got really mad last time
I did this,'cause they're toojingly.
Cathy Marks Krpan (35:04):
Well, mine's jingly.
Is mine too jingly?
Vanessa Vakharia (35:06):
No, you just have one.
Like, see how I have a million?
Oh, okay.
Okay, we're back.
Cathy Marks Krpan (35:08):
Okay.
what's really important is to get to know each
kid as best as we can, eachstudent as best...
as a person, as a human being.
Vanessa Vakharia (00:14):
Hello, and welcome to today's episode of
Math Therapy, coming to youstraight from Fort Worth, Texas,
where I'm speaking at the CAMTMath Education Conference.
My friend Dr.
Cathy Marks Krpan and I haveactually snuck into an empty
conference room betweensessions.
There is a very loudpresentation happening next
door, and I am just praying thismic does not pick it up,
otherwise David is going to killme.
(00:35):
Now, why have we decided torecord this completely impromptu
episode?
Well, Cathy and I have this veryweird thing going on.
See, we're both from Toronto,but we basically never see each
other there.
In fact, we've only ever beentogether in person twice, and
both times have been inairports.
The first time was in Texasafter this very conference last
(00:56):
year.
The second time was in theToronto airport on our way here
just a few days ago.
The weird part is that bothtimes we've traveled together,
something completely ridiculoushas happened.
Last year was literal chaos.
You know the, like, airportlittle buses, like the buggies
that they drive around?
We convinced two guys to driveus to our gate on it, and we
made it to our flight withthirty seconds to spare.
(01:17):
Now, this year, somehow,basically the same thing.
Mechanical issue aftermechanical issue, sitting on the
tarmac forever, just one ofthose travel days where you're
convinced you're never actuallygetting where you're supposed to
go.
And both times, we've foundourselves texting each other
from different rows on the planesaying,"This is exactly like
math education.
This is exactly like teachingmath." Which got me wondering,
(01:37):
like, I wonder if Cathy meansthe same thing by that as I do.
So we thought,"Why not sneakinto a conference room between
sessions and find out live onthe pod?" Now, if you don't
already know Cathy, you are infor such a treat because Dr.
Cathy Marks-Krpan is a formerclassroom teacher, now a
professor at OISE, which is theOntario Institute for Studies in
Education at the University ofToronto, and she teaches
(01:59):
graduate courses in matheducation.
She works with teachers inschool districts across North
America and around the world,helping them create richer, more
meaningful mathematical learningexperiences.
She is the real deal, guys.
Honestly, she is one of thecoolest people I know.
She reminds me so much of my ownhigh school math teacher.
She has, like, this spark, thisenergy, this passion for helping
(02:19):
every student believe they canthink mathematically.
She's thoughtful, she's funny,she's brilliant, and every
conversation with her leaves meseeing things a little
differently.
If you're looking for a littlespark this summer, a little
reminder of why you fell in lovewith teaching in the first
place, or if you've everwondered how an airport disaster
could possibly have anything todo with teaching math, this
episode is for you.
So without further ado, here ismy friend, my fellow Canadian,
(02:42):
and one of the coolest women Iknow, Dr.
Cathy Marks-Krpan.
Here's why we're telling youabout this, not just that we
want you to be in awe of ourreality show that we should
have, but because the entiretime, me- Cathy and I were like,
"This is basically a metaphorfor teaching math."
Cathy Marks Krpan (02:59):
It is.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:59):
Tell me what you were thinking.
Cathy Marks Krpan (03:00):
I was thinking of several layers to
this.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:04):
Let's go.
Cathy Marks Krpan (03:04):
One is they get on the announcement and
said,"We..." Something to dowith the engine.
It was,"Wah, wah, wah, wah,engine.
Wah, wah, wah, wah, 30 minutes."And I wonder how many kids sit
in math class while we saysomething that we understand as
educators, that this is clear,it's very easy, and the kids are
(03:27):
hearing,"Wah, wah, wah, wah,wah." Mm.
And so, and that can lead to alot of different things.
And then the other piece is thewhole unknown, right?
Sitting on that plane, notknowing if we're gonna be taking
off or not, and that unknownpiece.
And, and sitting- And feeling alittle stressed about that.
(03:47):
We were a little stressed aboutit
Vanessa Vakharia (03:49):
Sure.
Like, you're, you're mentallygoing through all the options of
what can happen And, and I,
Cathy Marks Krpan (03:52):
and we're, and we're grown adults- Yeah
that can rational- that we haveat least, we can, we can reason,
we can think clearly about,"Okay, these are our options."
But a lot of times, kids in theclassroom don't always have
those kinds of thinkingskillsets readily available to
them.
But-
Vanessa Vakharia (04:09):
They're just panicking in the moment
Cathy Marks Krpan (04:10):
Right, right.
Yeah.
And, and we think, oh, you know,from my perspective or anyone
else in the classroom, sometimeswhen we're teaching we think,
"You know, I, this is prettystraightforward.
This is really easy." Butsitting with the unknown, right?
Sit- being comfortable with theunknown, whether you're an adult
or a student in the classroom,whether it's math or anything
else, that can be verystressful.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:32):
Now, you're talking about the student
perspective-
Cathy Marks Krpan (04:34):
Correct
Vanessa Vakharia (04:34):
right?
So let's go back to the whomp,whomp, whomp engine,'cause you
were texting me being like,"We,they are not asking us what
we're thinking." That's it.
They're not, right?
So tell me more about thatmoment of like, so a kid is
sitting in class, let's say, andthey're just hearing you blabber
some stuff and blah, like,"Whomp, whomp, whomp fractions.
Whomp, whomp, whomp a quarter."What would you prefer?
Like, let's imagine now go backto us on the plane.
(04:57):
What should have happened therethat would've helped us?
Cathy Marks Krpan (04:59):
First, first of all, I think there should've
been,"Does anyone have anyquestions?" And I know people
don't do that.
Vanessa Vakharia (05:04):
That's such a good idea.
Cathy Marks Krpan (05:04):
They don't do that on airlines'cause they
don't want our questions.
Vanessa Vakharia (05:09):
But teachers, they think all the-
Cathy Marks Krpan (05:09):
Because we would have damn fine questions
to ask.
Like, do I get a reimbursement?
Vanessa Vakharia (05:15):
Like- Or like, tell us exactly what's wrong
with the engine And
Cathy Marks Krpan (05:17):
I was thinking, rightly so, there's
gonna be a high demand on thefood and, but by the time it
came to my seat, there washardly anything left, which is a
whole other thing.
But yes-
Vanessa Vakharia (05:26):
That has nothing to do with what we're
talking about, but I love thatyou needed to get that out
there.
Cathy Marks Krpan (05:29):
No, it was important.
Vanessa Vakharia (05:29):
Air Canada, I hope you're listening.
Cathy Marks Krpan (05:31):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (05:31):
Okay.
Cathy Marks Krpan (05:32):
They always listen to me.
It's always that way.
Vanessa Vakharia (05:34):
Okay, so what, what if they had asked, okay,
tell me if they-
Cathy Marks Krpan (05:37):
So what are you thinking?
How are you feeling?
Um, is there anything...
Uh, they did come with water,which was nice, but just,
there's never any, there's notenough information to calm me
down on an airplane, and I justthink in teaching that parallels
very nicely because I'm surethere are kids, even though we
are very explicit sometimes in,in what we do and we ask,"Are
(05:58):
there any questions?" A lot ofkids aren't gonna ask the
questions'cause they feel thatthey're gonna be singled out and
they don't wanna do that.
But even just having them writesomething down and just say,
"What are you thinking at thismoment?
Write it down.
Give them cue cards out.
Let me see what's, what's goingon."
Vanessa Vakharia (06:11):
Well, this is also making me think of like
they're giving us on the planelike just kind of a surface
level explanation.
It's- Right?
They're like, they kept saying,like after the engine thing,
they kept saying technicaldifficulties.
Yeah.
We didn't know what technical-Yes like is the air conditioner
broken?
Is it the like lighting?
Yes.
Is it the actual-
Cathy Marks Krpan (06:26):
Is the wing falling off the plane?
Like, we don't know.
We don't know.
And I am not the, I mean, I amc- I'm a calm flyer pretty much,
but, but- When these thingsstart happening, things start
racing through my brain.
Right.
And I start thinking about whatif this happens?
(06:47):
What if this happens?
And I'm just thinking about kidsin the classroom with math.
Like, oh my gosh, what if I haveto share?
What if I have to do this and Idon't know what's gonna happen
next?
Sometimes that can- Hmm.
I think we don't take that intoconsideration enough.
I think because we, the persong- doing the wah, wah, wah
engine, wah, wah, wah, wingfalling off- they have an
(07:10):
insight of what is happening-Yeah and it's calm for them.
Vanessa Vakharia (07:14):
Well, I'm, you know what this reminds me of?
To me, okay, sorry, this isgonna be such a, a niche topic
for the high school teachers.
I fucking hate how we teachSOHCAHTOA before we actually
teach the sine, cos, and tanfunction.
So kids are just like, they'relike,"What?" And you're like,
"Don't worry, just type in sine60.
Just press the sine button onyour calculator." Yeah,
(07:34):
everything's gonna be great.
"It's all gonna be fine." Theydon't know that sine is actually
a function.
It's a gr- like they have noclue and we're just like,"Wah,
wah, wah SOHCAHTOA.
Wah, wah, wah- Yeah sine, cos,tan." And I think we d- so first
of all, I'm using that, thatbecause that example really
pisses me off, but we do it witha lot of things.
Keep, change, flip.
Just flip, right?
Yep.
Yeah, yeah.
Just flip and multiply whenyou're dinin- dividing the
(07:55):
fractions, it's gonna work.
Cathy Marks Krpan (07:56):
Don't ask why.
Vanessa Vakharia (07:56):
Don't ask why, right?
We don't wanna hear yourquestions.
Here's a sip of water, end ofstory.
We don't even do that part.
But do you know what I mean?
I know.
So it's-
Cathy Marks Krpan (08:02):
Like keep s- keep in your seat and put your
seatbelt on.
Vanessa Vakharia (08:04):
It's true.
And, and-
Cathy Marks Krpan (08:05):
Yeah, why are we doing this?
Vanessa Vakharia (08:05):
And so we're thinking like kids are often
thinking to themselves, numberone, why?
But I also like what you said ofwhat's going to happen next.
Like what am I...
I'd like to know what I'm goingto have to do next.
Do I have to produce an answer?
Do I have to share it with theclass?
Mm-hmm.
Like I think there's a lot ofclassroom practices- Yeah that
kids are scared are going tohappen.
Cathy Marks Krpan (08:24):
Yeah, and I, I think we underestimate that
sometimes.
Like I just think, again, we'readults in a plane, right?
We, we sort of have a, a, abroader view of what's happening
and what could happen, and yetwe still get anxious about it.
Vanessa Vakharia (08:39):
Yeah.
Cathy Marks Krpan (08:39):
Right?
And I think that just made methink like about kids and
learning, and we thought theplane is the classroom, right?
We're, we're the students.
Vanessa Vakharia (08:48):
We're the students.
Cathy Marks Krpan (08:49):
And-
Vanessa Vakharia (08:49):
The people in charge are just all like-
Cathy Marks Krpan (08:51):
And the pilot could be like the director of
education, and then the-
Vanessa Vakharia (08:55):
Oh,
Cathy Marks Krpan (08:55):
wow the s- the, the, the flight attendants,
the teachers perhaps.
Vanessa Vakharia (08:59):
Or like the teacher's assistants maybe.
Cathy Marks Krpan (09:00):
Maybe.
So who's the teacher then?
Vanessa Vakharia (09:02):
Well, they're also the teachers.
Cathy Marks Krpan (09:04):
Okay.
We're
Vanessa Vakharia (09:04):
not sure.
We're not sure.
They're the teachers.
I, I mean, I think, because the,the people giving us the
information are the teachers, itkind of feels like the pilot
You're right.
I like that.
They're the leader, and then theteachers are just doing the,
the, um, the flight attendantsare doing as they're told.
Cathy Marks Krpan (09:19):
Yeah.
Right?
And I was so curious.
Like, you could see It wasreally fascinating because the,
um, cab- the cabin, thecaptain's cabin, was open.
The cockpit?
Cockpit, yeah.
Yeah,
Vanessa Vakharia (09:27):
okay, okay.
Cathy Marks Krpan (09:28):
Yeah.
You say potato, I say potato.
But yeah, I think that's abetter word for it.
And I just was fascinated withthe And you just wonder, like,
what's going on in there?
Like, what is happening?
Vanessa Vakharia (09:37):
Right.
Cathy Marks Krpan (09:37):
Like, there's lights flashing.
Should we be concerned that thatlight is flashing from where I
am?
Vanessa Vakharia (09:41):
So can I ask you a question?
Cathy Marks Krpan (09:42):
You sure can.
Vanessa Vakharia (09:42):
What are, when- Are you nervous that
something bad is gonna happen tothe plane, or are you nervous
that your plan is gonna bederailed?
Cathy Marks Krpan (09:49):
No, I'm, I'm, I'm nervous that I'm gonna
probably, yeah, that something'sgonna happen to the plane, I'm
gonna die.
That's basically it.
I, I'm not-
Vanessa Vakharia (09:55):
Really?
Cathy Marks Krpan (09:55):
I, I love flying.
I'm very calm.
I love it, but when somethinghappens that's not normal, my
mind starts racing about whatthat could be.
Yeah.
Like, I remember as a kid, if Iwas on a plane, again, and I, I
was telling my dad,"Oh my God,what's this?" I hear bump, bump,
bump, bump, bump.
"Oh, don't worry about it.
It's called turbulence.
(10:16):
It's like," but,"It's like goingover bumps when you're in a
car." And I remember as a kidthinking,"Hell to no, it's not
like that." Like, we're 3,000,30,000 feet above the earth.
Vanessa Vakharia (10:26):
So you, okay.
So this also makes me think too,like, especially looking at that
childhood mind of, like,something we think is, like, a
rational thing to say, like,"Oh,don't worry about it.
It just works out.
You just keep, change, flip, andit's going to work out." Yeah.
"You just do this."
Cathy Marks Krpan (10:39):
You gotta trust.
Gotta trust.
Vanessa Vakharia (10:40):
You gotta trust.
Kids are not feeling that vibe.
Cathy Marks Krpan (10:43):
No.
Vanessa Vakharia (10:43):
And they are probably thinking something they
can't articulate, like,"That'snot good enough for me," or,"Why
should I trust it?" And I thinkonce they don't- Yeah trust
something and they don't under-Because here's the other thing.
We keep telling everyone, we areborn as natural problem-solvers.
Kids inherently love to do mathbefore- Yeah it gets, like,
scared out of them.
They like to solve problems.
They like to understand.
(11:03):
We like understanding.
So when we do that to a kid oran adult, when we just shut that
down by saying,"Just don'tworry.
Just believe me." Yeah, yeah.
"And just stay chill and do whatI say," that actually, I think,
kills the curiosity theyinnately have.
Cathy Marks Krpan (11:16):
Yeah, for sure.
For sure.
And we're not equipping themwith skillsets and the ability
to sort of navigate and sitcomfortable with the unknown,
which is important too- But doyou- to give them skillsets
Vanessa Vakharia (11:28):
do you think we do that?
Like, do you think in the planesituation they're doing that
because they don't understand?
Like, you know how sometimesteachers do that'cause they're
like,"Don't ask me questions'cause I actually don't know"?
Cathy Marks Krpan (11:37):
That's possible, and it's just to keep
everyone calm, like me-
Vanessa Vakharia (11:40):
Right
Cathy Marks Krpan (11:41):
on the plane.
And I just wanna say for therecord, I, I don't mind flying.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:44):
Yeah, we know.
Cathy Marks Krpan (11:46):
But stop it.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:47):
We, you've said it a few times.
Cathy Marks Krpan (11:49):
But I just
Vanessa Vakharia (11:50):
You know, it's funny you say this,'cause I
don't know you that well, andmost of our interactions have
been on these two flights.
Okay?
But what I will say is this.
So you took the analogy in thisway.
The way I was thinking about itis I was like, to me, it feels
like something on the teacherend.
Like, we are so uncomfortablewith uncertainty on that plane.
(12:10):
Like, you're like,"I need toknow what's gonna happen." Yeah.
You're kind of thinking theworst is gonna happen.
To me, it kind of reminded me ofwhen, like, a lesson gets
derailed.
Cathy Marks Krpan (12:16):
Right.
Absolutely.
It's, it's that whole piece andthe expectation that everyone's
treated the same, everybody hasto sit in their seats, everybody
blah, blah, blah, and just don'tinterfere
Vanessa Vakharia (12:28):
but what's interesting to me is in both of
these circumstances, things haveworked out for the best, and
we've had a great story to tell,and it's like we've gotten to
where everything's fine, but youstill in both situations so
quickly started thinking theworst.
Cathy Marks Krpan (12:43):
Absolutely.
Because, I mean, I'm justsaying, I just, I like to know.
The more information I have-
Vanessa Vakharia (12:50):
Yes
Cathy Marks Krpan (12:51):
the less stress I, stressed I become.
Vanessa Vakharia (12:54):
So I act-
Cathy Marks Krpan (12:54):
So- Yeah that's it.
Like-
Vanessa Vakharia (12:57):
If they had said,"We're having technical
difficulties.
The air conditioning isn'tworking-
Cathy Marks Krpan (13:02):
Yeah, we gotta figure that out
Vanessa Vakharia (13:02):
and we just wanna make sure you don't have a
hot flight," wouldn't you havefelt so much better?
Cathy Marks Krpan (13:05):
Yes, yes.
Vanessa Vakharia (13:06):
Cause you're like,"Oh, it's-"
Cathy Marks Krpan (13:07):
If you trust the person saying that.
Is it a coverup for somethingbigger?
We don't know, right?
Vanessa Vakharia (13:12):
Yeah, so it sounds like you're a very
suspicious person.
Cathy Marks Krpan (13:14):
Well, I'm, even as a kid, going on, um...
We have this, this exhibition,it's called the, the Canadian
National Exhibition.
They have all sorts of rides.
Yeah.
It's an amazing place, and Istill go every year.
But I, as a kid, I would not goon any rides, and, and it was
great for my parents'cause I,they, nobody would have to go on
with me.
And the reason was because Ithought,"I'm not getting up in
(13:37):
that contraption.
Anything can happen, and thatperson there is gonna be in
charge of my life." That's how Ithought it at, like, 10, 11
years old, so yeah, I guess-
Vanessa Vakharia (13:47):
That is-
Cathy Marks Krpan (13:47):
it all comes back.
Vanessa Vakharia (13:48):
It does all come back, but I think what you
said is so-
Cathy Marks Krpan (13:50):
Is this a ther- is this a therapy session
Vanessa Vakharia (13:52):
I'm wondering, because I'm like, now this is
actually about trusting theperson in the front of the room.
Cathy Marks Krpan (13:57):
Well, and trusting the person, yes.
Trusting the person in the frontof the room, and how do you
develop that trust?
It's not just...
It, it takes...
It's a journey to develop thattrust.
Vanessa Vakharia (14:07):
But how do you do that with students?
Cathy Marks Krpan (14:09):
You do that with students with getting to
know who they are.
But not only getting to know whothey are, but ensuring that they
know that you are making theeffort to get to know who they
are, and that you are-
Vanessa Vakharia (14:19):
Give me, like, two things you do, or one thing,
your favorite thing.
Cathy Marks Krpan (14:23):
I would sit down.
the kids in my class, they weregrade eight- And they had really
challenging home lives, like tothe point where I could not
survive what some of themexperienced.
Mm.
Like, I, I just...
It was amazing.
If...
When they showed up, it was acelebration in my heart At the
beginning of the year andthroughout the year, I would
(14:44):
have a one-on-one interview witheach student and say,"Here are
some of the things that I'mobserving about you, that I'm
getting to know about you, thatI really like.
And I just wanna tell you thethings that I just really admire
about you." Full stop.
That was it, every time.
And it made a difference.
Um, some of the kids came up tome and said,"It's the first time
(15:04):
anyone has ever told meanything-
Vanessa Vakharia (15:06):
Oh, my God
Cathy Marks Krpan (15:07):
that they like about me.
It's the first time." N- n- notjust even teachers, but anybody.
And so just-
Vanessa Vakharia (15:12):
How old are these kids?
Cathy Marks Krpan (15:13):
Uh, grade eight, so-
Vanessa Vakharia (15:15):
Like middle school, like-
Cathy Marks Krpan (15:16):
Yeah middle school.
Middle school, yeah.
And it made a difference.
But it wasn't just...
It was for me to get to knowthem-
Vanessa Vakharia (15:23):
Mm-hmm
Cathy Marks Krpan (15:24):
and to understand them as much as
possible and to create arelationship, because nothing
was gonna happen in thatclassroom without a relationship
of some sort.
Um-
Vanessa Vakharia (15:35):
And what I'm hearing you say, which is really
interesting, is often, I think,when we think about getting to
know our kids, I'm not sayingthis is wrong, but we think,"Oh,
we need to know, like, whattheir hobbies are and what TV
shows they watch." But I thinkthat's one way of getting to
know them, but what I'm hearingyou say is simply observing and
being able to point out what youunderstand about their
character.
Cathy Marks Krpan (15:52):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (15:52):
Like things- Yeah that they might not see in
themselves.
Like,"You're a really funnyperson- Yes or you're..." You
know what I mean?
Like-
Cathy Marks Krpan (15:57):
Yes.
All of that.
See- And, and, and, and, andit's gonna be different for each
kid.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:02):
Mm-hmm.
Cathy Marks Krpan (16:02):
And that I'm not just saying,"Oh, everybody's
so great.
I really love you.
I love the way you're engaging.
I love all this stuff." No.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:08):
Well, hold on.
Yeah, tell me what's wrong withthat or what you don't love
about that approach.
Cathy Marks Krpan (16:12):
I feel it's superficial.
Too general.
I feel it's the wah, wah, wah,wah.
And I think what's reallyimportant is to get to know each
kid as best as we can, eachstudent as best...
as a person, as a human being.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:24):
So talk to the-
Cathy Marks Krpan (16:25):
And that takes work.
That takes work.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:26):
Well, and I'm sure there's, there's teachers
listening who are like,"I wouldlove to, but, like, I've got
like four classes of 30 kids.
How do I do that?"
Cathy Marks Krpan (16:33):
So you don't have to get to everybody every
day.
So I might do two kids a day.
Two kids a day, just sit downand just have that one-on-one.
Or sometimes what I would do issay, um, you know,"Does anyone
wanna chat?" You know, and theyknew what that meant.
They knew what that meant, andthey, they could come up and
say,"Yeah, let's chat." So Ijust, it, yeah, it doesn't take
much.
(16:54):
And I know we always encouragewhen they're at work and when
they're doing things, but to me,that connection of talking to
them and them talking to me andsaid,"What are some things that,
you know, you're concerned aboutin the class or anything like
that, and let's have a con-conversation that way." So they
get to know.
So there was one student.
And the other thing I always do,they didn't have to stay in
(17:16):
their desks because it justdidn't work.
It didn't work with this classto stay in their desks.
It wasn't their way.
So I would just say,"Huddle up."So they would come.
When we would teach, when Iwould teach math, they would
come.
Some would be on the floor, somewould be on desks, some would be
on chairs they'd bring up, butwe'd just be in a really nice,
intimate, intimate community,like, just close together.
(17:40):
And that's so much nicer thanlike,"Hello, back there.
You know, do you know the a-"And it was great for class
management too, right?
But...
Vanessa Vakharia (17:48):
Well, y- so going back to that idea of
connection because even whatyou're saying- Yeah about the
huddling, that also has to dowith connection.
It has to do with everybodysorta like being together.
It kinda gets rid of the, um,like the hierarchy of like
you're at the back, you're atthe front.
Cathy Marks Krpan (18:01):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (18:01):
I know this might seem really obvious, but I
think, I- I- I think there are,are a lot of folks, and I
completely understand why, Ithink at a certain point I
wasn't able to explain, and Iwould love to hear from you why
you think this is important.
Because I know that there isthis idea of, we don't have time
for connection.
We've gotta teach content.
Tell us why it actually, likeyou said, nothing would've
(18:23):
happened in this class withoutme getting to know my students.
What, tell me how it worked.
Like, why did it make thatdifference?
Cathy Marks Krpan (18:29):
Because it, it built that trust, and it
brought down some walls thatthese kids had up.
I mean, they were tough kids.
They, yeah, they were, theywere...
I learned so much from them,right?
I remember, and, and I rememberat the time, um, they, I would,
I would call home as well, andthey were,"Miss M?" I said,
(18:54):
"Yeah, put your mom," orwhoever's on the, your guardian,
whoever- Yeah your caretaker,and I would say something
positive to that person aboutthat child, that student, that
whatever.
And it, yeah, it takes time, butI, I'm, I'm not there just to
teach the content and, and Ibelieved in that, and so I took
the time, and it took a lot oftime.
(19:15):
Yeah, it did, but it builtrelationships, and those kids
felt seen.
Um, they felt respected.
Did we still have classroommanagement issues?
Yes.
But- It happened throughhumanity.
It was a more, it was just aconnection.
So-and-so, you know,"Sorry,miss." Like that kind of thing.
Vanessa Vakharia (19:35):
Yeah.
A- 100%.
And it's so funny, we, likeliterally an hour ago, I was
like,"You know what, Cathy?
You remind me of my high schoolmath teacher," and that was what
she would do.
She always made a point to callhome to say something nice.
Yeah, yeah.
I remember my parents, the firsttime it happened, it was the
first time a teacher had eversaid anything nice about me to
them.
Before, it was all, the onlyreason to call home is if
(19:57):
there's a problem.
Cathy Marks Krpan (19:58):
Yeah,
Vanessa Vakharia (19:58):
yeah.
And it really changes thedynamic because not only, like,
does it build trust with theparents, who often are like,
"What is happening in thisclassroom?" But the student is
like,"Oh my God, this teacher ison my side."
Cathy Marks Krpan (20:12):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:12):
Right?
She's not just there to, like,berate me or to make me feel bad
or whatever.
Like, she's got my back.
She wants me to feel good.
Cathy Marks Krpan (20:17):
But we're there to teach kids, and I just
love...
And even with my grad students,even with my pre-service
students, I love getting to knowwho they are beyond just the
classroom.
I think that's just important.
That's about being human.
That's about building theserelationships.
And I know we're busy, but Ithink it makes a lot of
difference for these kids.
(20:38):
I don't...
The content will get taught, butI think the relationships and
trust, I think that goes a longway.
I really do.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:46):
Well, and I always say it's like, yes, it
takes time, but it also takestime to have to reteach
something over and over againbecause no one's paying
attention.
Yeah.
And when people feel seen,they're more likely to pay
attention, right?
Yeah.
They're more likely to take thatrisk to try because there is
that trust, and I, I think inthe end you save time.
Cathy Marks Krpan (21:02):
Absolutely.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:03):
I really do think in the end you save time.
If you look at the year as awhole, maybe it's like you're
front-loading the time'causeyou've gotta get to know them,
you gotta make the phone calls,you gotta do the interviews, but
they're going to be moreengaged, which means you're
gonna save time.
Cathy Marks Krpan (21:14):
It was a f- yeah, and it was a fascinating
year because the other thingthat I've never shared all these
stories, but the other thing...
see that?
You get an exclusive.
Um.
The other thing I would do, justbecause I, I just enjoyed it,
um, I would stay in my class...
Okay, two things.
Number one, I didn't have ateacher's desk.
It was out of the classroombecause-
Vanessa Vakharia (21:35):
Very Peter Liljedahl of you
Cathy Marks Krpan (21:37):
I feel that the teacher's desk is always
placed at a location that isprime real estate in the
classroom.
It's by the window.
It's by somewhere.
I want my kids to have that realestate.
I don't want it.
So, I took that out, and I justhad bins, which was great.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:52):
Bins for what?
To sit on?
Cathy Marks Krpan (21:53):
Bins, no.
Bins to put my stuff in.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:56):
Oh, okay.
Cathy Marks Krpan (21:56):
And my students didn't use the desk.
You know, when they put sh- shitin the desks-
Vanessa Vakharia (22:00):
Yeah, yeah, yeah
Cathy Marks Krpan (22:00):
and you have to clean out their desk?
Boom.
So, I had bins.
Their math book for, for, werein the bins and whatever.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:04):
What grade are you talking about?
Still middle school?
Cathy Marks Krpan (22:06):
It could be middle school, so I had 7-1,
7-2, 8-1, 8-2.
But even when I taught, um,grade four, grade five, grade-
Okay grade three, everything wasin the bins.
Okay.
So, if I wanted their languagearts notebook, it was there.
Um, but it, it was just, um,over lunch, um, at the, the
middle school level I would, Iwould eat my lunch in the
(22:26):
classroom and I said,"If anybodywants to come in and do work or
whatever, or hang out, you can,"and they would.
And it was really fascinating tome, um, over recess,"Miss, can I
come in?" Because you'd heartheir conversations, right?
I'm right there.
I mean- So you're learning stuffabout them and about real, like,
it's like Real Housewives kindof thing, so it's-
Vanessa Vakharia (22:45):
I was gonna say, it's your own reality show,
but it's productive because youwant to get to know them.
Cathy Marks Krpan (22:50):
It was amazing.
It was amazing.
And I'd say,"You know I'm here.""Yes, Miss.
We know you're here, but we'reg- we're, we wanna talk
about..." Okay, fine.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:56):
So you're not making Because, I mean,
obviously you need a break, soyou're kind of like,"I, you're,
I'm, you're not gonna ask me forhelp, but feel free to sit near
me and also eat your lunch."
Cathy Marks Krpan (23:03):
Yeah, or just sit in the classroom.
We'd play music.
I'd play music, and it was justgreat, and that's another way
we've just built...
I just loved it.
It was so great.
I love being- In the classroom
Vanessa Vakharia (23:12):
You were just the be- We, we- I'm still
really, I wanna hang on to, likeI'm still really thinking about
this idea of like when we saygetting to know our students, it
can mean so many things.
It can mean finding out whattheir favorite TV show is.
It can mean finding out if theyhave siblings.
It can mean just hearing themtalk and being like,"Oh my God,
I'm really noticing that likeshe's the one in the group that
keeps making everyone laugh."Like, do you know what I mean?
(23:33):
Yeah, yeah.
Like, it can be any of thosethings.
Like, you can learn throughobservation.
And like I always say this aboutcompliments.
You remember how earlier youwere like,"It's really
superficial to just be like,'Oh,I notice you're engaged'"?
Yeah.
If I like said to you, like,"Youlook really great today," that'd
be fine.
Cathy Marks Krpan (23:47):
Well, thank you.
Vanessa Vakharia (23:48):
Right.
But if I was like,"I love yourhair." Yeah, yeah.
Like, the colors in it- Yeah arereally making your eyes pop,
it's like that's for you.
Cathy Marks Krpan (23:56):
Yeah, yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (23:56):
Right?
Yeah.
And so like to make sure you'resaying something like that to a
student for them to be like,"Wow, she really sees me."
Cathy Marks Krpan (24:02):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (24:03):
It's not just lip service.
And because she really sees me,I feel like I actually have
value here.
Cathy Marks Krpan (24:08):
Yeah, absolutely, and maybe they'll
start seeing other people aswell.
Mm.
Like, maybe it, it continues,right, the journey and
everything that's happening and,and, you know, when they're
upset and so-and-so's not goingto the dance because of
so-and-so.
And that all comes into play,right?
When they come in thatclassroom, whatever, whatever
grade level it is, what'shappening on the outside, what's
(24:29):
happening at recess, that comesin, and that's part of the
journey that we're taking withour students.
And you can't, yeah and I stilldo that.
I still do that even with myuniversity students.
Like,"Oh, something's off today.
I don't fee- I feel somethingis...
Are you, are you okay?" And whenwe st- and then s- all of a
sudden something happened thatblah blah blah blah, and they
want me to know and whatever.
(24:50):
So-
Vanessa Vakharia (24:50):
And that's so, that, I think this is part of
that conversation of you ca-like you said, we're teaching
kids, not content.
Cathy Marks Krpan (24:55):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (24:55):
We're teaching people, so you, you can't If you
wanna be like,"Well, their livesand who they are have nothing to
do with content," like, you'regonna be very disappointed to
find out that a lesson justmight not land.
Cathy Marks Krpan (25:05):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (25:06):
Because stuff, if something's going on with us,
it's going on with us period.
Cathy Marks Krpan (25:10):
We're hu- we're, we're emotional beings.
Yeah.
And, and, and math tends to be,as you very well know, um, an
anxiety-provoking- Yeah kind ofthing.
Um, and it's the way it's taughtsometimes.
It's, it's past experiences thatpeople have.
And by the time students get toeven grade four or grade five,
grade si- they've alreadysolidified how they think of
(25:33):
school, how they think ofteachers, how they think of
mathematics.
So I'd like to be that person tokind of undo that a little bit
if there's some negativitythere- Mm-hmm and just sort of
sit with that.
Because the best classroommanagement strategies are not
gonna work if the kids do nottrust who we are, if the
students don't trust who we are,or even know who we are, right?
(25:56):
It's about us taking the riskand sharing who we are as well
and, and that kind of thing.
Vanessa Vakharia (26:01):
Yeah.
What's a good, like, first thingfor someone to share if we have
someone listening who's like,"Inever tell my students anything
about me.
Like, I don't want them to knowpersonal stuff about me"?
Cathy Marks Krpan (26:10):
I just think, you know, what did you do on the
we- what did everybody do on theweekend?
Here's something I did on theweekend, or here's something Oh,
you know, I'm trying to learn tocook, or I'm trying to learn to
do this, or I'm trying to learnto do that.
And I think photos of differentthings, if you have pets.
I know that sounds superficial,but it connects a bit to, uh-
Vanessa Vakharia (26:27):
It humanizes you, right?
This...
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like, it's like sometimes wedon't humanize the students, and
often the students don'thumanize teachers.
They're like,"It's just thisperson, this gremlin trying to,
like, force me to do fractions."
Cathy Marks Krpan (26:36):
Can I tell you a st- Of I like clothing,
and I like just ensembles,putting things together.
Vanessa Vakharia (26:40):
We both have full-size suitcases for a
three-day trip.
Cathy Marks Krpan (26:43):
That, this is true.
Manipulatives aside.
And so my students would takenotice of what I would wear.
And the reason why I think I'mgonna dress as best I can, like
I do for anybody, uh, becauseone time when I was teaching,
um, the students noticed that Iwas dressed up better than
(27:04):
usual,'cause I had an interviewor something.
"Oh, I, you know, I have anappointment." And then another
day I came in dressed up andthinking,"Oh, she must have
another appointment." It made merealize, you know what?
I shouldn't be dressing forappointments.
You're my most importantappointment.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:17):
Oh, my God.
Cathy Marks Krpan (27:18):
So that's why I just try...
and I, and I don't mean, like,you know, Gucci and whatever.
I'm just saying just to look-
Vanessa Vakharia (27:25):
Yeah
Cathy Marks Krpan (27:26):
whatever it means to look and dress for that
individual, that would be what Iwould do for my students, so I
was teaching grade eights.
And they would say,"Miss, Miss."like one time I wore, said,"Oh,
Miss, like that color's toobright, Miss.
Oh my gosh.""Like shut down thelights, man.""Like what's going
on?" Miss, Miss, that's like a 4out of 10.""4 out of 10?
(27:47):
This is a 4 out of 10?" And I,and I, and I wrote 4 out of 10
on the board.
And so the next day we'd have 4out of 10, and I said,"Okay,
we're gonna..." Right.
This is horrible, but I- itworked.
Said,"What about this outfit?
What do you think?""Miss, that'sa 6.""Why is it a 6?" We put
the- and we did like de- Itaught decimals that way.
Vanessa Vakharia (28:06):
Okay.
Cathy Marks Krpan (28:07):
So, so that we would, like, and we did.
So then one time I'm gettingready and I'm thinking,"What am
I gonna wear?" And I asked Tony,my husband, I said,"You know
what?
I don't know what to wear." Hegoes,"Why don't you wear blah,
blah, blah?" I said,"I'm notwearing blah, blah, blah.
That's a 3 out of 10.""I'm notputting that on." According to
my grade eight student, thatdoesn't even...
But it was, it was an ongoingjoke with us around that.
(28:28):
Um, it wasn't about makingjudgments about people's
clothing, but they, it was a wayto get to these kids-
Vanessa Vakharia (28:35):
What I'm
Cathy Marks Krpan (28:35):
hearing is- and actually make it meaningful
to them,'cause then all of asudden we started having
averages and it was fun.
Vanessa Vakharia (28:41):
Well, what I'm hearing is you did exactly what
you've been talking about thisentire podcast, which is you got
to know them.
Yeah.
You observed that they wereinterested- They were interested
in this thing.
And you were like,"It appearsthat you're really interested in
what I'm wearing." So
Cathy Marks Krpan (28:54):
I c- It doesn't matter what it was.
Like, if I was wearing aMichigan sweatshirt, that was a
big deal to them.
Vanessa Vakharia (28:58):
Yeah.
You noticed what they wereinterested in.
Cathy Marks Krpan (29:01):
They love them, yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (29:01):
And then you took, and also I'd like to say
by you writing those numbers onthe board, they now have
ownership over that.
Cathy Marks Krpan (29:05):
Oh, yeah.
It was funny.
Vanessa Vakharia (29:06):
They created that scale.
Cathy Marks Krpan (29:07):
It was great.
It was great.
Vanessa Vakharia (29:08):
Oh my God, okay, this has been amazing.
I don't know what we've beentalking about for half an hour.
Me too.
It started with...
But let m- uh, you know what?
You're gonna, you're gonna lovehow I'm about to land the plane.
Ah! Okay?
Cathy Marks Krpan (29:19):
You got it on time.
Vanessa Vakharia (29:19):
Because, okay, we on time because what we are
talking about now is flightadjacent.
Because the other thing Cathyhas taught me is about packing,
okay?
She is the one who last yearmade me feel okay about bringing
a full size suitcase.
Cathy Marks Krpan (29:34):
Don't shame people because they have large
suitcases.
Like, what difference does itmake?
You bring on, you know, you beyou.
You bring on your little fatknapsack on the plane- we're
fine with that I'm gonna pack,and even if my suitcase is
empty, I'm gonna live large,fill it up, do what I need to do
(29:55):
because I want choice.
I want choice.
I don't care if choice is aboutsweatshirts, if it's about
jeans, if it's about dresses, ifit's about pants.
I don't care.
I want choice.
That is it.
I make no excuses.
No excuses.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:11):
And how I'm gonna tie this together right
now is in all of the researcharound trauma-informed
education, it has been shownthat one of the key things that
will help an anxious student ora student that is exhibiting
off-task behavior because theirneeds aren't being met is to
give them choice.
Yes.
Choice of any kind, exactly likeshe just said.
It could be the sweatshirts.
It could be what, do you wannawrite with pencil or pen?
(30:33):
Do you wanna work in a group orindividually?
Do you wanna do it on thewhiteboard, or do you wanna do
it on a piece of paper?
Do you wanna work at your seator on the carpet?
That alone.
Do you wanna do this question orthat question?
I've given you 10 questions.
Pick two that you wanna do.
When you do that, a student isalways more likely to do the
task if there is any element ofchoice.
Cathy Marks Krpan (30:51):
Yes.
And we're helping them navigatethe unknown because we're
helping them make decisions ontheir own about different
things, so that is reallycritical.
Vanessa Vakharia (31:01):
We just...
Yeah, no, keep going, but we arelanding.
Just- We are landing the plane
Cathy Marks Krpan (31:04):
just like packing that suitcase, baby.
Vanessa Vakharia (31:06):
Just like packing that suitcase.
Just like packing that suitcase.
Just like us having the choicein the very beginning.
And you know what, to say, Iwould have loved if on a plane,
this is what bothers me whenthere's all these difficulties,
if they would give us choice, ifthey would say something like
"you know what?
You guys can get on the plane oroff the plane while you wait." I
understand logistically theycan't do that sometimes.
Cathy Marks Krpan (31:23):
"Do you want a$10,000 voucher for a hotel or
not?" Like, that's it.
Vanessa Vakharia (31:27):
Or even like, "Do you want water?
Do you want..." Instead of beinglike,"Here's water,""Do you want
a beverage?
Pick.
Do you want a sna-..." Like,"Doyou want this or that?" Like,
"Would you prefer to...
You guys can get up and movearound," instead of just,"Sit
still.
Be quiet.
Don't ask questions.
You have no choice.
You have no agency."
Cathy Marks Krpan (31:43):
Yeah, but there could be laws Like
aviation laws that we don't knowabout that could kibosh
everything
Vanessa Vakharia (31:48):
we just said.
If any pilots are listening tothis podcast, please touch us.
We'd love to hear from you.
If you are a pilot, maybe you'rea teacher with a pilot spouse or
friend- feel free to let us knowwhat you think of our analogy.
Did we land the plane?
We can't wait to hear from you.
Cathy- This is it this was, thiswas so much fun.
This was great.
Did you have fun?
I did.
Oh.
Okay, wait.
Let, let me ask you the questionI ask every podcast guest.
(32:09):
Uh-oh.
Okay?
Before we- Yeah land land.
Okay, we're on the tarmac.
Okay, we're going to the gate.
Question number one (32:13):
What would you say if somebody said to you,
"You know what?
I love everything you're saying,but y- I, I'm just never gonna
get it.
It doesn't matter if I havechoice.
It doesn't matter if that.
I'm just not a math person."
Cathy Marks Krpan (32:26):
I think it's about where you are, look at who
you are, and what you've done.
I think it's about highlightingpast successes- Oof of what
somebody has done, and goinginto the past and saying,"What
do you mean by that?" And Ithink also, and it's about
landing the plane for what wesaid, what do you mean by a math
person?
What is a math person?
'Cause if their understanding isa math person that they have an
(32:49):
applied sci- like a, a mathdegree of some sort, or they're
a physicist, well, in thatcategory that you've created for
yourself, that you are probablynot that kind of math person.
Um, but what do you understand?
Like, what are the otherexamples of what a math person
can be?
Vanessa Vakharia (33:08):
I love it.
And finally, if there's onething, only one thing you could
change about the way math istaught in schools, what would it
be?
Cathy Marks Krpan (33:15):
Humanity.
Make it more human, moreemotionally connected to the
person.
Vanessa Vakharia (33:22):
What perfect timing.
I think a session is about tocome in here right now.
Cathy Marks Krpan (33:25):
Maybe we should-
Vanessa Vakharia (33:25):
Maybe we should just be the session.
Should we just set up aPowerPoint?
Cathy Marks Krpan (33:29):
Yeah.
Quick, quick, quick, right now.
Vanessa Vakharia (33:31):
Safety demonstration.
Cathy Marks Krpan (33:32):
Yeah.
There you go.
Vanessa Vakharia (33:33):
Okay.
You're the best.
Love you.
Bye.
Oh my God, I just love her somuch.
And honestly, I would havecontinued the convo, but, like,
the next session speaker walkedinto the room to set up for his
session.
And while this is unrelated, Iwould like to add that this man
told me he was a schoolprincipal.
And why does that matter to you?
(33:54):
Well, because he asked me what Iwas doing in the room, and I was
like,"Blah, blah, I was justrecording a podcast about math
anxiety." And then he told me,at this math education
conference that we were both at,that he had never heard of math
anxiety, which, like, I don'tknow, I found kind of concerning
as a principal.
I was like,"How is thispossible?" And, like, obviously,
no shade to him.
(34:14):
Obviously, it's never too lateto learn something new, and I
hope he went home and lookedinto it, but it does show us how
much work there is to be donearound understanding the
complicated relationshipstudents have with math.
So at least we're all out heredoing the work.
I hope you guys loved thisimpromptu conversation with
Cathy as much as I did.
Please do text us and tell us ifwe landed the plane and what
(34:35):
your biggest takeaway was.
We wanna hear from you.
I hope you guys are having thebest summer.
Thank you all for making MathTherapy a part of your poolside
PD, and I'll see you next week.
we haven't discussed why wethink that this entire story is
a metaphor for teaching.
Cathy Marks Krpan (34:52):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (34:53):
That's true.
I have to take these braceletsoff'cause David will kill me.
Okay.
Hold the mic, and you can keeptalking.
Okay, so I wanna know-
Cathy Marks Krpan (34:58):
And how, how would he kill you?
That would be another podcast.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:00):
Well, he would get He got really mad last time
I did this,'cause they're toojingly.
Cathy Marks Krpan (35:04):
Well, mine's jingly.
Is mine too jingly?
Vanessa Vakharia (35:06):
No, you just have one.
Like, see how I have a million?
Oh, okay.
Okay, we're back.
Cathy Marks Krpan (35:08):
Okay.
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