January 27, 2025 • 39 mins
Welcome to this insightful episode of the Mindfully Masculine Podcast, where Charles and Dan explore relationship dynamics through the lens of "The Man’s Guide to Women" by Drs. John and Julie Gottman. This episode is packed with discussions on love, commitment, and personal growth.
Key Topics Discussed:
- Understanding Commitment:
- Debunking the myth of "the one."
- Biological and psychological factors influencing attraction.
- Challenges in identifying healthy versus unhealthy relationship dynamics.
- Stages of Love:
- Limerence: The initial, chemical-driven phase of love.
- Trust: Building confidence in your partner and aligning values.
- Loyalty and Commitment: Developing a deep, lasting bond.
- Relationship Growth and Self-Improvement:
- Navigating the pitfalls of past trauma and unhealthy relationship patterns.
- The importance of therapy, support groups, and self-reflection in making better partner choices.
- Why compatibility in handling conflict and emotional expression matters more than shared hobbies.
- Cultural and Practical Insights:
- Perspectives on arranged marriages and their approach to compatibility.
- The value of prenuptial agreements and forward-thinking financial planning.
- Red Flags and Relationship Risks:
- Avoiding impulsive decisions during the limerence stage.
- Recognizing and recalibrating a "broken picker" for healthier relationships.
- Actionable Advice for Men:
- Setting boundaries and principles before entering a relationship.
- Balancing emotions with logic when making life-altering decisions.
Memorable Quotes:
- "You should want to feel butterflies, not lightning bolts." – Dr. Drew (quoted by Charles)
- "The person you're marrying is not the person you're divorcing." – Reflecting on the necessity of prenuptial agreements.
- "A relationship should be the icing on the cake, not the cake itself."
Resources Mentioned:
- "The Man’s Guide to Women" by Drs. John and Julie Gottman
- Explore more episodes at mindfullymasculine.com
Connect with Us:
- Website: Mindfully Masculine
- Social Media: Follow us for updates, discussions, and more relationship insights.
If this episode resonated with you, don’t forget to subscribe, rate, and review. We’d love to hear your thoughts! See you next week as we dive into "Mother Nature: Understanding Women and Children."
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Charles (00:00):
I've noticed in myself and in my friends you and others
that like, hey, sometimesyou're with that girl because
your picker's broken, Becauseeverything in you and your
unconscious was telling you thisis a great choice, this is
exactly who you should be with,and you're just wrong because of
a whole lot of reasons.
Dan (00:19):
The wrong things are making you feel right, exactly.
Charles (00:22):
Welcome back to the Mindfully Masculine Podcast.
This is Charles.
All right, dan and I willcontinue in this episode to
discuss the Man's Guide to Womenby the Gottmans, and we will
talk about relationship dynamicsand commitment, the stages of
love, challenges inrelationships, cultural
perspectives on marriage,self-improvement and
relationship growth, conflictresolution and communication,
(00:45):
prenuptial agreements andfinancial planning, red flags
and relationships, and acritique of romantic ideals and
other topics.
Please check out our websitemindfullymasculinecom to see all
of our audio and video episodesand anything else that we find
worth sharing.
Thanks and enjoy so goodmorning, Charles.
Dan (01:04):
How are you?
Charles (01:05):
Just barely, dan.
Yeah, good thanks.
Yeah, we are recording thisjust before lunchtime and
probably go hit one of ourfavorite spots, either Panera or
the.
Oh, I went to Island Fin Pokethe other day.
I'd go back there again.
That was delicious, this placewas good.
Yeah, they again gave me a freelittle thing of Dole Whip.
Dan (01:23):
That's a nice little finisher.
Charles (01:25):
Absolutely.
I like that place, yeah, but Ihaven't had a Southwest Chicken
Ranch.
That's the salad I get atPanera, right, yeah, oh, that's
good.
So I might need one of thoseagain.
But I've got to get new tiresfor the BMW.
I rolled 200,000 miles on mylast trip to Jacksonville and
I'm going to go with some cheaptires because I don't know how
much longer that car is going tolast.
I'm starting to get some noisesand stuff and I'm going to find
(01:49):
a new mechanic because it's justcoming all the way over to
Deltona whenever I needsomething.
So I found somebody with prettygood reviews, a little closer
to where I live, and I'm goingto try them, give them a shot,
say, hey, tell me what thesenoises are and what it's going
to take to fix it, and see, seewhat kind of number they give me
, and that'll determine whetherI, you know, if it's too
expensive, I might just say,okay, I'm going to just keep
(02:10):
driving this till it breaks downand save as much as I can for
the next vehicle.
Hopefully, fingers crossed,there's nothing big going on,
just some of the, some of theshifting's a little rougher and
some of the gears are giving mea little bit of noise when I'm
driving down the road.
I hope so.
That'd be great, but it is amanual, so those are, you know,
have a reputation of beingcheaper to fix than automatics.
So we'll see.
(02:31):
But I'm going to have to takeit someplace, going to have to
get new tires and take it to getthe transmission looked at.
But fingers crossed, becauseit's still a fun car to drive.
I still like having it, butcabinet, but we'll see.
Okay, so we're going to diveinto our next chapter real quick
.
This one is going to be calledis she the one understanding
women and commitment?
And this is a new section inthe book, the man's guide to
(02:55):
women, and as usual, we will usethe summation at the end of the
chapter to sort of guide usthrough the different topics
that are covered.
First thing Dr Gottman andothers get into or bring up is
that men want commitment just asmuch as women do, and I would
say that, you know, on average,most men verbalize the desire to
have a, especially as theyreach a certain age, the desire
(03:17):
to have a wife and family, justas much as women talk about
wanting a husband and a family.
It's just sometimes the agethat they start talking about
that is a little bit different.
I think usually men are a littlebit older before they start
talking about it, the way that,with the intensity that women do
, most men know when a woman isquote, unquote, the one, which
is a concept that I I finddubious, and I feel like he he
(03:40):
could have done a better job ofexplaining how there is no the
one for you, in a metaphysicalsense, more I don't know.
He did an okay job where there's, there's a range of people that
you could probably have asuccessful relationship with and
there's nothing magical aboutone of them over another, but
(04:01):
there are some intangibles thatmake you feel like you found the
one more more than others right, there has to be an inherent
rightness for a woman to be theone.
She has to smell right, feelright, taste right and look
right.
So, yeah, some of those youkind of.
It's very vague, still it is,and I didn't appreciate the
(04:22):
rightness comment.
Yeah, I think it's okay andfair to say that there are some
intangibles that you might notbe able to succinctly express in
words why one person appeals toyou over another person.
Dan (04:36):
But as a research scientist , shouldn't that be their job?
Charles (04:40):
It's your job to take the magic out of this right.
Dan (04:42):
Right, that's where I feel like he was kind of the same
thing with his comment of man upin certain circumstances, right
.
Agreed, I'll dig in a littlebit and, yes, be more precise.
So I understand why.
Charles (04:54):
Yeah, I do appreciate that sometimes you know you will
feel a connection or attractionto one woman over another and
it's not something that you caneasily quantify.
But that doesn't mean thatthere aren't real criteria that
your brain is evaluating on someconscious or unconscious level
(05:14):
what I'm concerned about is alot of times I felt things have
been right and they have notbeen.
Dan (05:19):
They have been wrong, and so my lack of understanding of
what that rightness feeling is.
I think it was to my detrimentwhere.
So I would love to know what isat play when I'm feeling, when
those things are are are feelingright yeah, that's.
Charles (05:36):
That's a great point.
And and he did not really doany, he didn't really flesh out
the idea that I've.
I've noticed in myself and inmy friends, you and others, that
like, hey, sometimes you'rewith that girl because your
picker's broken, becauseeverything, everything in you
and your unconscious was tellingyou this is a great choice,
this is exactly who you shouldbe with, and you're just wrong
(05:59):
because of a whole lot ofreasons because the wrong things
are making you feel right.
Dan (06:04):
Exactly, that's exactly.
Charles (06:05):
That's exactly what I was saying perfect way to put it
yeah, when that happens.
Yeah, if you've not, if you'venot done some work to be as
healthy as you can be, thenyou're not going to be as
attracted to the healthy optionwhen he or she presents
themselves.
You're going to and look.
I think I mean when, whenyou've been through some
(06:28):
relationships that didn't havethe result that you hoped that
they would, and when you've beenthrough some experiences as you
were younger, it's like they'repart of us, part of you should
have a healthy skepticism ofokay.
The way that Dr Drew said it onone of his tv shows or radio
shows back in the day was youshould want to feel butterflies,
(06:49):
not lightning bolts.
If you've got any kind of ahistory of trauma or you know
seeing poorly modeled romanticrelationships in your parents
and the fact that you're feelinglightning bolts, that might be
an indicator that this is notthe right person for you.
And getting, getting too, andwe'll get into the different
stages of falling in love.
(07:09):
But if the limerence stage, thefirst stage, hits you too hard,
that could be related to yourlack of health and your lack of
function, not how great thisperson is for you.
Dan (07:22):
It's a hard sell because once you felt lightning bolts
which most of us have at somepoint yeah, now that's the kind
of the bar, like I could befeeling this good, and so now
you feel like you're settlingfor butterflies and there could
be things now that you'relooking for to sabotage the
relationship and therelationship whatever it is,
because you didn't get to thoselightning bolts, sabotage the
(07:44):
relationship and therelationship whatever it is,
because you didn't get to thoselightning bolts, and that's
usually a recipe for disaster orunsuccess or unhappiness.
And so that's why I wish he kindof would dig in a little bit
more in terms of the mechanismsand you know what.
What is okay, that you know howright is is is right, like what
(08:05):
you know how.
What is okay, that you know howright is right, like what you
know how good does it need to beand how good is too good, like
if we could get into that, likewhat kind of behaviors do you
exhibit when you are with aperson, when it's butterflies
versus light eagles, what youknow, what kinds of things are
you thinking or feelingtypically?
Just give us some examples ofyou know right and butterflies
(08:27):
versus lightning bolts and hemay have touched on a little bit
.
I've not, I forget.
He may have a little bit in thechapter, a little, I just
forgot.
Charles (08:33):
But yeah, but yeah, well, maybe we'll get into that
a little bit later yeah, itmight be thought be something
else to look for in a in anotherbook too.
Dan (08:41):
That might get a little bit into that I think the name of
the book should be butterfliesversus lightning bolts and we
will write.
Charles (08:46):
I think, yes, yeah, that's.
That's an interesting question,though, that how, how much of
the, how much of the strugglethat we have in our
relationships are just based onhow bad we are picking good
relationships and how much ourbrain is tricking us into
thinking that chaos equalschemistry.
And, yeah, that's a fairquestion.
(09:07):
Okay, so the three stages oflove are going to be limerence.
Stage two is trust and knowingthat you'll be there for each
other, and the third stage isloyalty and commitment.
So we'll get into those in alittle bit more detail.
You can't fall in love withjust anyone and you can't make
it work with everyone.
(09:28):
And I found it interesting totalk about, like, even in
cultures where there arearranged marriages, sometimes
there's more selection goinginto those arranged marriages
than we Westerners might thinkthat there is.
Looking at them from theoutside.
Yeah, I didn't realize that.
Yeah, neither did I.
He mentions, like, in the caseof some Indian couples, usually
they're.
You know, once the couple meeteach other, in a lot of cases
(09:50):
maybe not every case in a lot ofcases they have a way to say we
need to get back to the search,because this isn't the right
person for me, and then they'llchalk it up to like or some
other color.
Dan (10:01):
I think it's the sari that the woman wears.
Yeah, she'll change colors ifshe's not interested.
I think for the sneaky prettygood.
Charles (10:10):
Ella has the opportunity to do that too, Okay
.
Dan (10:12):
Yeah, I'm sure there's some sort of code come out, chewing
gum versus not whatever.
Charles (10:17):
Whatever it is.
That's interesting that, yeah,they have.
Even though the parents take ona lot of the responsibility for
making that pick, there arestill ways that the the
individuals yeah, I didn'trealize.
Dan (10:30):
I thought it was almost like a forced type of thing.
Yeah, and you know that itmakes sense if it's been around
as tradition for so many years,that they would be intelligent
enough to realize that theperson, the people getting
married, do need to want atleast at some point feel like,
yeah, they are compatible oropen to it, so have some sort of
(10:56):
fail-safe kind of veto type ofsituation.
Charles (11:01):
That would be a good idea.
Dan (11:02):
Yeah.
Charles (11:03):
I'm glad to learn that that exists.
Yeah, I didn't, I didn't knowthat.
So stage one of the falling inlove process is what the gotmans
call limerence, and you and Ihave talked about limerence or
on on this, on this show.
It's that.
It's that feeling of being inlove with someone when your
chemicals are just yourchemicals of your hormones are
(11:23):
going crazy to get you bound tothis person as tightly as you
can at the beginning of therelationship so that you'll be
willing to stick with them whenthings are a little bit harder.
Ie, you know, children andhousehold are requiring you to
do things that are difficult.
And you know, I imagine I havenot found myself making I've
(11:44):
never made lifelong commitmentsor decisions while I've been in
the limerence phase with someoneand then, you know, had to kind
of sober up and realize, ohcrap, what have I done?
I think of you know celebrities,you know flying to Vegas and
getting married on sort of awhim when they're in this stage
and then they have to figure outhow to live with it or roll it
(12:05):
back or whatever.
And yeah, I'm glad I've notfound myself in that position.
But I have been in the positionwhere I've been in limerence
with someone and have thought,okay, this is it, this is my
person, I'm going to be withthem forever.
And then it didn't turn outthat way.
So that's why it's so importantto not make decisions with
lifelong consequences whenyou're in the first few months
(12:28):
of being with a new partner yeah, but sometimes you'll get
pressure from the other personto make a person, or your
friends or family, I mean,there's no telling where that
pressure could come from right,and that's why it's important to
say no, I don't.
I don't make decisions like Idon't make these huge decisions
when I'm on drugs, which isessentially what you are.
Dan (12:46):
Yeah, right, yeah.
So he said what kind ofhormones are going on?
Oxytocin.
Charles (12:52):
Yeah, something I haven't even said or pronounced
before.
Let me find it here because itis.
Yeah, he mentioned somechemicals that I had not heard
the name of before Oxytocin,dopamine, phenylethylamine, pea
testosterone, estrogen,serotonin and
dihydropendastosterone huh, okaydhea, you can't eat, you can't
(13:18):
sleep, you can't stopobsessively thinking about your
partner.
You're crazy, excited, head overheels in love and you may find
yourself doing some wild things,and often your partner, who's
going through that with you willwill be in the same boat.
And yeah, it really.
I mean it does feel like you'reon drugs and rash.
Your, what is it?
(13:39):
Your?
Your fear response goes down.
Your ability to look ahead andplan for the future goes down.
I mean, yeah, it's quite atrick that biology plays on you.
Dan (13:55):
It kind of forces you to kind of be in that moment and
then not be able to thinkforward or as easily think
forward, because you're feelingso good in that moment that
you're just focused on thepresent time.
Sometimes that's good to do,but it's sometimes not good to
make long-term plans in thatstate.
Charles (14:11):
Right, that's where you know.
I think you know, havingmaintaining your therapy, your
men's group or your women'sgroup, and talking through this
process with other people thatyou trust and that understand it
is very important because youknow you need you need somebody
to sometimes talk you down alittle bit.
Dan (14:30):
Yeah, because and you need those external people because
they're not feeling, they're noton, they're not on the same
drugs that you are, so theydefinitely will be bringing a
different perspective.
Charles (14:38):
Yeah, and and it's.
It's good to have people likethat in your life that can kind
of check you when you'reexperiencing this, because it's
very difficult for you to checkyourself, other than just having
certain principles like I donot move in with someone that
I've known less than x number ofmonths or years.
I do not marry someone thatI've known less than x number of
years.
I do not fill in the blank.
(14:59):
Whatever those rules are, it'sgood to have those before you
get into the relationship sothat you don't find yourself
just getting completely caughtup and, making you know, putting
your name on a 30-year mortgagewith somebody that you met
three months ago I know a lot ofpeople will, and I've been
guilty of this too is oh well,this person is different.
Dan (15:17):
Like I can, I can shortcut this principle.
You're not.
You're having great reasons whyand I can sign this mortgage
because this person iscompletely different than all
the other ones and stuff.
And it's just like, again,you're judging it under drugs,
right?
Not?
Not with a clear head.
So if friends and family arestarting to ask you some
questions that are gettingannoying to you because they're
(15:39):
saying, oh, you're actingdifferent, you, you know there's
a good chance that you might be, and usually it's going to be
they're going to be mentioningit to you.
For your best interest, justtry not to be so quick to
dismiss that.
Charles (15:53):
Yeah, I agree.
Now I got married pretty youngand my wife was pretty young too
, and we did not have any kindof a prenuptial agreement, or
even really talk about havingone, because we didn't have any
assets.
So what do you need one for it?
Neither of us came fromfamilies with a lot of assets,
so you were engaged.
Did that conversation ever comeup with you and your fiance?
Dan (16:16):
No, it never did.
I mean, neither of us alsodidn't have any assets, didn't
really have any assets or a lotof money at that point and I was
engaged for five months and itwas like before we even sent the
invitations out or anything, wedecided we're not doing it, for
the right reasons.
Charles (16:36):
I think, as I'm older not that I still have much in
the way of assets on paper, Icertainly have my assets are a
very extensive lifestyle where Iget to do what I want all the
time, and I don't think you putthat into.
You don't put that into aprenuptial agreement, but I
would.
I'm just thinking of thisbecause I watched a show
(16:56):
recently where it was about afamily, a woman, getting married
and her family had a lot ofmoney and it's like you know
well.
Well, I'll send you to mylawyer and get the prenup.
Oh, I'm not getting.
It led to a whole bunch of that, but she was.
You know, she met the guyfairly recently, so she was
definitely in the limerencestage and you know, the idea
that they weren't going to betogether forever seemed
(17:18):
preposterous to her.
So why would they need aprenuptial agreement if they're
going to be together for therest of their lives?
Dan (17:24):
So there's so much more behind that.
It's kind of one of thosethings I feel like a lot of
people are like oh well, you'regoing to jinx the relationship
if you have that type of thingRight, and it's just like holy
cow, what's the difference?
If you're going to be together,then you don't need it, but get
it anyway, like you know.
That's why there's a reason.
There's medical insurance, autoinsurance, I mean some of it's
dictated by law, but at the sametime it's like you have it but
(17:47):
you hope you never use it rightit does.
Charles (17:49):
It does feel like what's the point?
It's in that category ofsuperstition and magical
clinking and stuff like thatwhere, yeah, I would say if I,
yeah, if I ever got marriedagain and I was, you know,
worried about any of my assetsor any of her, or she was
worried about hers, then yeah,of course you know why.
Why make a big deal about it?
Part of me is also I.
(18:11):
I'm of the opinion if I wasmarried into money, that's her
money, it's not my money and Idon't need somebody else's
resources.
I'm capable of generating myown resources or regenerating
them if I need to.
Dan (18:24):
I heard a great way of thinking about it.
I don't know who said it, butit was basically the person that
you're marrying is not theperson that you're divorcing.
So that's why you want aprenuptial agreement.
That's true, yeah, because.
And you're not going to be thesame person either.
So let's just be honest.
Charles (18:40):
Yeah, and when something goes through, when
something turns from a personalrelationship into a business
relationship, which isessentially what a divorce is, a
divorce is a businesstransaction that you want to go
into your business transactionsin as strong a position as you
can, or even in as equitableposition as you can.
That's fair to both people.
And so, yeah, yeah, the time tomake that decision of what's
(19:03):
fair is when you're not in themiddle of divorcing the person.
Right, well, you still need theyeah when you still like each
other exactly yeah, um, so yeah,I just thought that one of the
things that goes along with thatlimerick stage is this idea
we're going to be togetherforever, so let's make some huge
decisions right now.
And, yeah, that can definitelyturn around and bite you.
(19:24):
Stage two is trust and knowingif you'll be there for each
other.
So stage two is when thelimerick starts to wear off and
you start looking at thesituation like, okay, do we have
the same values?
Do we feel the same way aboutthings like children and money
and sex, and what is a good life?
And answering those kinds ofquestions and being able to, for
(19:47):
the first time since you've meteach other, being able to
answer them honestly and decideokay, is this the kind of person
that I can stay true to myselfand also stay true to them for
the rest of our lives?
Yeah, you got to kind of askthose, those questions, and on
the one hand, it's harder if youcome up with no's.
It's harder to get out of therelationship because you've been
with them for a while, but onthe other hand you can.
(20:09):
Now that you're not on the samedose of drugs as you were before
, you should be able to look atthose questions a little bit
more reasonably.
And that's also when she's goingto be making decisions like
okay, is this the kind of personthat I can run a household and
raise a family with?
Is he gonna be reliable enoughand trustworthy enough to get
(20:30):
myself into those kinds ofpositions where I'm really
relying on, on his ability toprovide for me emotionally,
financially, in all those ways?
Yeah, a third stage of love isabout loyalty and commitment,
which, again, trustworthinessreally kind of is a vein that
goes through all three of these.
As far as what the woman'slooking for from the man, you
(20:52):
know, are you going to be whoyou claim to be and are you
going to do the things that yousay you're going to do, and it
gets harder and harder tooverlook those failures the
longer you're with somebody, aswell it should, and so if there
are sort of chinks in your armorwhen it comes to being who you
are, or being who you claim tobe and doing what you say you'll
(21:13):
do, then you know, in in stagetwo, that can be where the
breakup happens, yeah, where youknow you've you've not had the
track record of of being who youclaim and doing what you say
you'll do.
Dan (21:27):
And I think it's important to show those chinks in your
armor to your partner is showthat you're not perfect, you
don't have it all figured outRight, because then, as long as
you're being truthful toyourself and to her, I think
that's, that's the foundation ofof all of what you're just
talking about.
Charles (21:46):
Yeah, I agree, he gets into this one part where this
has been a.
This has presented someproblems for me in relationships
before.
And let me know if you, ifyou've had this experience as
well.
You don't need to have similarlikes and dislikes to work as a
couple, but you do need to becompatible in how you handle
conflict and express emotionsand affection.
So I've had relationships wherewe did share likes and dislikes
(22:07):
, like very, very closely, butwe did not share how we handled
conflict and expressed emotionsand affection to each other.
And you know, now, as I'vegotten older, I realized, okay,
well, one of these is importantand the other one is not.
And the sharing the likes andthe dislikes, it feels like, you
know, kind of low-hanging fruitor easy wins, but it's not
(22:28):
nearly as important forforecasting the success of your
relationship as okay, well, doyou actually have the same value
?
Do you?
Do you look at love andrelationships and mental health?
Do you look at those things thesame way as each other?
The expression of emotion, thehow to handle conflict, you know
, do you if those?
If you don't match up on thosethings, then it doesn't matter
(22:50):
that your favorite band or yourfavorite movies to say.
Dan (22:52):
Right, yeah, because that's a good point.
I mean, the likes are the easyones.
Right that are you're going tobe able to find something.
Charles (23:01):
Most likely, and you can very easily.
You can fairly easily changeyour likes.
Yes, you know, the personyou're dating can expose you to
a new TV show or a new band thatyou weren't familiar with
before and you're like, oh yeah,they're pretty good, I like
those, I'd be happy to go totheir concert.
But then you know if, if theway you express emotions or the
way you think about intimacy arenot the same, that's that's
(23:22):
going to be a bit more of aproblem.
Dan (23:24):
Yeah, your communication styles are different, yeah,
especially when it comes time toresolving a problem or thinking
about a problem or an issuethat is far more difficult to
manage and find, I think.
(23:44):
But I also feel like, if youcome from a position where you
were not, as before listening tothis podcast and reading these
books and things, I wasdefinitely more focused on being
right and my ego is getting inthe way A lot of times whenever
I would have an argument,instead of trying to figure out
what the solution is and thenproviding time and space for the
(24:07):
other person to get out,communicate everything that they
need to, that other person toget out, communicate everything
that they need to, and those twolittle things, you know saying
that this person is importantenough and the relationship is
important enough to work on asolution to the problem and not
care how we got there or how weget there.
That and also giving that timeand space, and you know being
(24:29):
able to take some.
Also giving that time and space, and you know being able to
take some.
Maybe some things that don'tsit with me very well, maybe
that I don't agree with, butjust focusing on allowing that
time and space for thecommunication to happen from her
(24:50):
, from the situation, had madesuch a big difference in my life
in terms of my overallhappiness and my ability to come
to solutions and resolveproblems a lot more quickly with
a lot less stress.
So those are the two thingsthat I try to really, and I'm
translating that into just notjust my relationship but with my
girlfriend, but with otherpeople as well, and it's worked
(25:11):
pretty well with my girlfriendbut with other people as well,
and it's worked pretty well.
Charles (25:15):
It's worked pretty well , yeah.
Yeah, my revelations in thatspace have been, you know and we
talk about this all the timewhere any of these techniques,
any of these practices, any ofthese anythings that we
recommend for men to sort ofintegrate into their
relationships, into their lives,are all contingent upon the
belief that I am enough and I'mhealthy enough, I'm good enough.
(25:37):
No matter what happens to me,I'll deal with it, I'll be able
to roll with punches,everything's going to be okay.
And yet, and where?
Yeah, if you and I think youknow, when we talk about the
four horsemen that can doomrelationships and how, you know,
my, my special one, special onethat spends a lot of time
hanging out with me isdefensiveness, and if it's very
(25:59):
easy to feel like you're beingpoked and that idea of I'm good
enough, I'm sufficient, I canhandle anything.
If that gets prodded at andstarts to crumble a little bit,
you're like, oh now, now I'mfeeling like I might not be good
enough, I might not be feelinglike I'm enough for this person
or for this relationship, thenthe defensiveness wall goes up
immediately and, yeah, it takesa lot, of, a lot of
(26:22):
uncomfortable work, to sort ofbuild up that self-image that
tells you no, you're, you'regonna be fine, you can, you can
hand, you've handled.
Crappy stuff has happened toyou before.
Crappy stuff is going to happento you again, and the only
thing all those crappy thingshave in common is that you
survive.
Dan (26:38):
Yeah, no, I think it's great that you look back and you
can look from actual evidenceof you handling things that are
more difficult, or even not asdifficult, but surviving through
it and going hey look, I evencame out better in this
situation than I was before.
So this is an opportunity forfor me to get uncomfortable and
feel a little pain, but I mightactually be a better person
(27:00):
afterwards.
Charles (27:01):
Yeah.
Dan (27:02):
And that's that's been for me.
It's just find the emotionalspace and to remember those
things Right and take in thetime time.
Especially when that whole highstarts getting up right in the
middle of it, it's reallydifficult to think of anything
of other than what's happeningright there in the in the middle
.
Charles (27:19):
Oh, yeah for sure.
Okay, here's.
Here's another one of thesepoints at the end of the chapter
where he gets a little little.
You will know she's the one ifshe makes you feel like you are
your best self and you feel morealive, adventurous, joyful and
loved when you're with her.
But based on what he's talkingabout, with stage one being in
limerence, you feel that way.
If any girl checks off thenecessary biological, cultural
(27:46):
checkpoints, that makes you fallinto limerence with her.
You're going to have all thosefeelings and it can sometimes
have very little to do with whoshe actually is and what she
actually is, and it's about yourchemicals and the way you feel
when you're around her.
And so you're checking off allthese boxes based on these
magical beliefs that are reallymore about your body's hormones
(28:09):
than they are about her, and Iknow I've made the mistake of
superimposing my idea of myideal partner and relationship
upon what I'm currentlyexperiencing.
Dan (28:21):
When I'm in that limb rest it's very easy when you're on
those drugs to kind of combineboth of those and get a little
confused.
Perfect round peg to fit inthis round hole, and then you
must later.
Charles (28:31):
The glasses come off and you're like if she was a
square the whole time.
Right, right yeah, exactly soyeah, that can be, that can be
difficult, and so I, yeah, Iwish, I wish he did a little bit
better job of you know, tellingyou, and and he did it in one
of the earlier chapters he madeit very clear how you know your,
your vision, will be impactedwhen all these hormones are
(28:53):
going crazy.
Dan (28:55):
But then you know, you still use phrases like the one
and it's like you said well, Idon't know if you're, there are
many ones, there are many of theones.
Keep that in mind.
Charles (29:06):
Yeah, there are, but then, you know, finding the one
and making a commitment or aboutdoing what it takes to make a
relationship last.
It's like I don't know, man.
I feel like in my ownexperience, most people, men and
women, are walking aroundwaiting for lightning to strike
and not spending a lot of timethinking.
I don't know how to recognize,you know, real lightning from a
(29:30):
transformer blowing up down theblock, but it's like it's.
It's very easy to make amistake when it comes to that,
and especially if you've got acomplicated relationship with
your mom, your dad, the kind of,you know, marriage or
relationship they modeled foryou when you were a kid.
It's like you know.
What have you done?
Who have you asked?
Who have you done?
Who have you asked?
Who have you talked to?
(29:51):
What have you read?
Who have you listened to?
To do anything to sort ofcalibrate your ideas of what
relationships are supposed tofeel like versus you know what
your parents in the movies havetold you that they're supposed
to feel like and look like.
It's like I don't know, man.
That seems like I mean, becausethis and so many other books
(30:11):
talk about how you know, as men,the most important decision
we'll ever make is you know whatpartner we choose to marry and
start a family with, and we'realmost doing no work to figure
out like, okay, are the criteriathat I am unconsciously
evaluating to find that personremotely close to what they
should be, or am I just goingbased off?
Dan (30:31):
of vibes.
Yeah, and the easier move isjust go off of vibes.
Charles (30:36):
Right, so that was last last tax, yeah and then you end
up with a society where halfthe people are getting divorced
because the vibes change.
Change or don't?
Labs or?
Yeah, absolutely so I don't.
I think, yeah, maybe for ournext book we might need to do
some legwork and see who's outthere talking to you about
(30:58):
making informed choices for howto choose partners, especially
in the context of what kind ofbaggage are you holding on to
from your childhood that you maynot recognize that you're
holding on to.
We'll see what's out there.
Okay, here are the things thatwill make you a zero when it
comes to this.
You refuse to ever commit,meaning you just, you know,
(31:18):
decide to adopt a lifestyle ofI'm going to be a perpetual
bachelor and I'm never going toeven entertain what the possible
benefits of, you know, monogamyor long-term commitment are.
If you think every woman is theone which, more specifically,
would be, every pretty womanthat shows you a little bit of
attention is the one.
(31:38):
You make a commitment to awoman and you don't honor it.
You threaten to leave therelationship and bring up
divorce when you are in upset.
When you are upset or inconflict, yeah, that's
definitely a big no-no.
You don't cherish the woman inyour life, you always think
there might be something betterout there than the woman you
committed to.
You don't sacrifice for therelationship or you don't look
to your relationship as theplace to get your needs met.
So we'll hit a couple of thosereal quick.
(31:59):
If you always think there mightbe something better out there
than the woman you committed to,he mentions that might be a
symptom of agreeing to acommitted relationship with a
woman you've never feltlimerence for.
So if you made decisions thatwere purely based on logic and
checking off some boxes but younever actually felt that, that
(32:21):
chemistry with somebody, then,yeah, those people usually do
end up looking back thinking,ooh, maybe I could have done
better.
Yeah, so that's something tolook out for.
Don't go into this just purelybased on logic.
It's got to be.
You got to keep the logicalside of your brain working as
well as you know.
Look for chemistry and look forjust attraction.
(32:42):
You don't sacrifice for therelationship and I I've got
friends that are dealing withsituations with partners where
when things are good, they'regood, but they're stuck in a
situation with somebody who'snever actually willing to say no
to anything else that they wantfor the purpose of the
relationship, affection of othermen or women or whatever it's
(33:11):
like.
Yeah, if you're a relationshipwhere somebody is not saying I'm
gonna say no to this otherthing so that I can have this
valuable relationship with you,then you're always going to feel
like you're you're in second,third, fourth or fifth place and
never in first place.
You don't look to yourrelationship as a place to get
your needs met, which, yeah,that's, I mean, part of's.
Part of the difficulty orstruggle we can run into in a
(33:33):
social media based culture iswhen you commit to someone,
you're saying the positivefeelings I get from feeling
attractive, it's 100% your jobto make me feel those things now
, and I am not going to belooking for other men or other
women to make me feel special ormake me feel attractive,
(33:55):
because then you run into what?
What if you meet somebody elsewho's better at making you feel
attractive than your partner is?
Then you're going to continueto try to solicit that feeling
from that other person andthat's going to be bad for your
relationship.
Dan (34:10):
So Glover summed it up a relationship should be the icing
on the cake and not the cakeitself.
To try to solicit that feelingfrom that other person, and
that's going to be bad for yourrelationship.
Charles (34:17):
Glover summed it up A relationship should be the icing
on the cake and not the cakeitself of your life.
Right, right, yeah, yeah.
If you feel perpetually notgood enough, then anyone who
comes along and makes you feelspecial is going to be
potentially a very disruptivepresence to the other things
that you value in your life,like your romantic partnership
with your long-term monogamouspartner.
So if you're always kind offeeling like I don't know if I'm
(34:40):
good enough, I don't know ifI'm enough, and then some
good-looking guy or gal comesalong and tells you things or
makes you feel things in a waythat your long-term partner has
not been doing, or or even ifthey do do it, but it doesn't
feel as novel and as special asit, you know, when you're used
to hearing, hey, you're goodlooking from the same person for
years and years, then whensomebody else comes along that's
(35:03):
that's why it's important tokeep up those boundaries and not
really, not really openyourself up to people coming
along and in making you feelthat way.
So yeah, that's very important.
Anything else from this chapterthat you wanted to get into?
Again, I was just a little bit.
It felt a little woo-woo to me.
You know how I hate books, thatI bring any woo-woo into
(35:23):
anything.
So what part was woo-woo foryou Any time where he mentioned
the one?
Dan (35:29):
You'll know it's the one if dot, dot, dot, yeah it's like
that's to have a whole chapterabout this and not really get
into it in terms of I feel like,yeah, it wasn't really
explained.
Well, I feel what, who?
That that one is right.
I mean, I don't even hold, Idon't even really like the idea
(35:50):
of using the term the one,because that sets an expectation
of to me.
That person is completely what.
The situation is controllable,right, and people change and,
and so they could be the one atthe beginning, they could be
compatible with you.
So I feel like, you know, maybeit's just a cute way of saying
(36:11):
how do you improve the odds orincrease the odds of meeting
somebody that you're going tostay with for the rest of your
life?
And I guess it's a little biteasier to say the one.
But the the issue that I haveis there's like no talk about
the other person changing in away that maybe isn't compatible
with with you, because you can'tcontrol a lot of external
(36:36):
things in your world, and thatincludes your partner, or they
potentially could change in waysthat aren't compatible with you
know what you want and what you, you, you guys, you know came
together as a couple at thebeginning with.
So, yeah, I feel like therecould be a little bit more meat
in this chapter.
Charles (36:53):
Yeah, I look at the one as a term that is completely
backward, looking like, yes,she's the one I've chosen, she's
the one I've committed to, butnot a term that you use for
before you've decided that she'sthe one.
It's.
Oh, I think I found the one.
(37:14):
It's like well, have you?
Have you decided that she's theone?
Then she's not the one if youhaven't already made that
decision.
It's just, she's potentially agood match.
She might be the best matchthat you found so far that
you'll ever find.
But the, the idea, yeah, it doesfeel like there's something
metaphysical or spiritual or woowoo about this.
(37:38):
That, yeah, as as someone who'sbeen in relationships with
people that I thought were goingto be the one and it didn't
work out that way, yeah, it'slike okay, if it.
If it happens once where you'rewrong, you get this wrong.
Then and I think dr gotman wasmarried before, oh, really, his
wife julie too and it's like howcan you, how can you still talk
(38:03):
about things in that way whereyou went into a relationship
completely convinced that youfigured out, you got it right,
and then it turned out you werewrong?
It's like, yeah, I don't seehow and I'm not down on
remarriage or second marriagesor anything like that.
But I do feel like when youtalk about relationships in
(38:25):
those terms and you get proventhat it doesn't always work out
that way, in a very personal way, maybe it's time to outgrow
that kind of talk and sort ofleave it behind, because that's
the way I feel about it yeah, no, I, I see that sure anyway, all
right, that's where we are forthat chapter.
the next one will be see chapter14, mother nature understanding
(38:48):
women and children.
And yeah, that'll beinteresting to talk about the
levels of commitment andaffection that women have for
their offspring versus the, thefeelings they have for their
partners and how men react tothat.
I'm hoping to get into that abit on the next one.
So, thanks very much, and youand I will talk about this again
(39:11):
next week.
Sounds good, sir.
Bye, bye-bye.
Thank you so much for stickingwith us for the whole episode,
dan, and I certainly appreciateit.
Again, please check out ourwebsite mindfullymasculinecom
for all the news that's fit toshare, as well as our full audio
and video episodes.
Thanks again, bye-bye.
I've noticed in myself and in my friends you and others
that like, hey, sometimesyou're with that girl because
your picker's broken, Becauseeverything in you and your
unconscious was telling you thisis a great choice, this is
exactly who you should be with,and you're just wrong because of
a whole lot of reasons.
Dan (00:19):
The wrong things are making you feel right, exactly.
Charles (00:22):
Welcome back to the Mindfully Masculine Podcast.
This is Charles.
All right, dan and I willcontinue in this episode to
discuss the Man's Guide to Womenby the Gottmans, and we will
talk about relationship dynamicsand commitment, the stages of
love, challenges inrelationships, cultural
perspectives on marriage,self-improvement and
relationship growth, conflictresolution and communication,
(00:45):
prenuptial agreements andfinancial planning, red flags
and relationships, and acritique of romantic ideals and
other topics.
Please check out our websitemindfullymasculinecom to see all
of our audio and video episodesand anything else that we find
worth sharing.
Thanks and enjoy so goodmorning, Charles.
Dan (01:04):
How are you?
Charles (01:05):
Just barely, dan.
Yeah, good thanks.
Yeah, we are recording thisjust before lunchtime and
probably go hit one of ourfavorite spots, either Panera or
the.
Oh, I went to Island Fin Pokethe other day.
I'd go back there again.
That was delicious, this placewas good.
Yeah, they again gave me a freelittle thing of Dole Whip.
Dan (01:23):
That's a nice little finisher.
Charles (01:25):
Absolutely.
I like that place, yeah, but Ihaven't had a Southwest Chicken
Ranch.
That's the salad I get atPanera, right, yeah, oh, that's
good.
So I might need one of thoseagain.
But I've got to get new tiresfor the BMW.
I rolled 200,000 miles on mylast trip to Jacksonville and
I'm going to go with some cheaptires because I don't know how
much longer that car is going tolast.
I'm starting to get some noisesand stuff and I'm going to find
(01:49):
a new mechanic because it's justcoming all the way over to
Deltona whenever I needsomething.
So I found somebody with prettygood reviews, a little closer
to where I live, and I'm goingto try them, give them a shot,
say, hey, tell me what thesenoises are and what it's going
to take to fix it, and see, seewhat kind of number they give me
, and that'll determine whetherI, you know, if it's too
expensive, I might just say,okay, I'm going to just keep
(02:10):
driving this till it breaks downand save as much as I can for
the next vehicle.
Hopefully, fingers crossed,there's nothing big going on,
just some of the, some of theshifting's a little rougher and
some of the gears are giving mea little bit of noise when I'm
driving down the road.
I hope so.
That'd be great, but it is amanual, so those are, you know,
have a reputation of beingcheaper to fix than automatics.
So we'll see.
(02:31):
But I'm going to have to takeit someplace, going to have to
get new tires and take it to getthe transmission looked at.
But fingers crossed, becauseit's still a fun car to drive.
I still like having it, butcabinet, but we'll see.
Okay, so we're going to diveinto our next chapter real quick
.
This one is going to be calledis she the one understanding
women and commitment?
And this is a new section inthe book, the man's guide to
(02:55):
women, and as usual, we will usethe summation at the end of the
chapter to sort of guide usthrough the different topics
that are covered.
First thing Dr Gottman andothers get into or bring up is
that men want commitment just asmuch as women do, and I would
say that, you know, on average,most men verbalize the desire to
have a, especially as theyreach a certain age, the desire
(03:17):
to have a wife and family, justas much as women talk about
wanting a husband and a family.
It's just sometimes the agethat they start talking about
that is a little bit different.
I think usually men are a littlebit older before they start
talking about it, the way that,with the intensity that women do
, most men know when a woman isquote, unquote, the one, which
is a concept that I I finddubious, and I feel like he he
(03:40):
could have done a better job ofexplaining how there is no the
one for you, in a metaphysicalsense, more I don't know.
He did an okay job where there's, there's a range of people that
you could probably have asuccessful relationship with and
there's nothing magical aboutone of them over another, but
(04:01):
there are some intangibles thatmake you feel like you found the
one more more than others right, there has to be an inherent
rightness for a woman to be theone.
She has to smell right, feelright, taste right and look
right.
So, yeah, some of those youkind of.
It's very vague, still it is,and I didn't appreciate the
(04:22):
rightness comment.
Yeah, I think it's okay andfair to say that there are some
intangibles that you might notbe able to succinctly express in
words why one person appeals toyou over another person.
Dan (04:36):
But as a research scientist , shouldn't that be their job?
Charles (04:40):
It's your job to take the magic out of this right.
Dan (04:42):
Right, that's where I feel like he was kind of the same
thing with his comment of man upin certain circumstances, right
.
Agreed, I'll dig in a littlebit and, yes, be more precise.
So I understand why.
Charles (04:54):
Yeah, I do appreciate that sometimes you know you will
feel a connection or attractionto one woman over another and
it's not something that you caneasily quantify.
But that doesn't mean thatthere aren't real criteria that
your brain is evaluating on someconscious or unconscious level
(05:14):
what I'm concerned about is alot of times I felt things have
been right and they have notbeen.
Dan (05:19):
They have been wrong, and so my lack of understanding of
what that rightness feeling is.
I think it was to my detrimentwhere.
So I would love to know what isat play when I'm feeling, when
those things are are are feelingright yeah, that's.
Charles (05:36):
That's a great point.
And and he did not really doany, he didn't really flesh out
the idea that I've.
I've noticed in myself and inmy friends, you and others, that
like, hey, sometimes you'rewith that girl because your
picker's broken, becauseeverything, everything in you
and your unconscious was tellingyou this is a great choice,
this is exactly who you shouldbe with, and you're just wrong
(05:59):
because of a whole lot ofreasons because the wrong things
are making you feel right.
Dan (06:04):
Exactly, that's exactly.
Charles (06:05):
That's exactly what I was saying perfect way to put it
yeah, when that happens.
Yeah, if you've not, if you'venot done some work to be as
healthy as you can be, thenyou're not going to be as
attracted to the healthy optionwhen he or she presents
themselves.
You're going to and look.
I think I mean when, whenyou've been through some
(06:28):
relationships that didn't havethe result that you hoped that
they would, and when you've beenthrough some experiences as you
were younger, it's like they'repart of us, part of you should
have a healthy skepticism ofokay.
The way that Dr Drew said it onone of his tv shows or radio
shows back in the day was youshould want to feel butterflies,
(06:49):
not lightning bolts.
If you've got any kind of ahistory of trauma or you know
seeing poorly modeled romanticrelationships in your parents
and the fact that you're feelinglightning bolts, that might be
an indicator that this is notthe right person for you.
And getting, getting too, andwe'll get into the different
stages of falling in love.
(07:09):
But if the limerence stage, thefirst stage, hits you too hard,
that could be related to yourlack of health and your lack of
function, not how great thisperson is for you.
Dan (07:22):
It's a hard sell because once you felt lightning bolts
which most of us have at somepoint yeah, now that's the kind
of the bar, like I could befeeling this good, and so now
you feel like you're settlingfor butterflies and there could
be things now that you'relooking for to sabotage the
relationship and therelationship whatever it is,
because you didn't get to thoselightning bolts, sabotage the
(07:44):
relationship and therelationship whatever it is,
because you didn't get to thoselightning bolts, and that's
usually a recipe for disaster orunsuccess or unhappiness.
And so that's why I wish he kindof would dig in a little bit
more in terms of the mechanismsand you know what.
What is okay, that you know howright is is is right, like what
(08:05):
you know how.
What is okay, that you know howright is right, like what you
know how good does it need to beand how good is too good, like
if we could get into that, likewhat kind of behaviors do you
exhibit when you are with aperson, when it's butterflies
versus light eagles, what youknow, what kinds of things are
you thinking or feelingtypically?
Just give us some examples ofyou know right and butterflies
(08:27):
versus lightning bolts and hemay have touched on a little bit
.
I've not, I forget.
He may have a little bit in thechapter, a little, I just
forgot.
Charles (08:33):
But yeah, but yeah, well, maybe we'll get into that
a little bit later yeah, itmight be thought be something
else to look for in a in anotherbook too.
Dan (08:41):
That might get a little bit into that I think the name of
the book should be butterfliesversus lightning bolts and we
will write.
Charles (08:46):
I think, yes, yeah, that's.
That's an interesting question,though, that how, how much of
the, how much of the strugglethat we have in our
relationships are just based onhow bad we are picking good
relationships and how much ourbrain is tricking us into
thinking that chaos equalschemistry.
And, yeah, that's a fairquestion.
(09:07):
Okay, so the three stages oflove are going to be limerence.
Stage two is trust and knowingthat you'll be there for each
other, and the third stage isloyalty and commitment.
So we'll get into those in alittle bit more detail.
You can't fall in love withjust anyone and you can't make
it work with everyone.
(09:28):
And I found it interesting totalk about, like, even in
cultures where there arearranged marriages, sometimes
there's more selection goinginto those arranged marriages
than we Westerners might thinkthat there is.
Looking at them from theoutside.
Yeah, I didn't realize that.
Yeah, neither did I.
He mentions, like, in the caseof some Indian couples, usually
they're.
You know, once the couple meeteach other, in a lot of cases
(09:50):
maybe not every case in a lot ofcases they have a way to say we
need to get back to the search,because this isn't the right
person for me, and then they'llchalk it up to like or some
other color.
Dan (10:01):
I think it's the sari that the woman wears.
Yeah, she'll change colors ifshe's not interested.
I think for the sneaky prettygood.
Charles (10:10):
Ella has the opportunity to do that too, Okay
.
Dan (10:12):
Yeah, I'm sure there's some sort of code come out, chewing
gum versus not whatever.
Charles (10:17):
Whatever it is.
That's interesting that, yeah,they have.
Even though the parents take ona lot of the responsibility for
making that pick, there arestill ways that the the
individuals yeah, I didn'trealize.
Dan (10:30):
I thought it was almost like a forced type of thing.
Yeah, and you know that itmakes sense if it's been around
as tradition for so many years,that they would be intelligent
enough to realize that theperson, the people getting
married, do need to want atleast at some point feel like,
yeah, they are compatible oropen to it, so have some sort of
(10:56):
fail-safe kind of veto type ofsituation.
Charles (11:01):
That would be a good idea.
Dan (11:02):
Yeah.
Charles (11:03):
I'm glad to learn that that exists.
Yeah, I didn't, I didn't knowthat.
So stage one of the falling inlove process is what the gotmans
call limerence, and you and Ihave talked about limerence or
on on this, on this show.
It's that.
It's that feeling of being inlove with someone when your
chemicals are just yourchemicals of your hormones are
(11:23):
going crazy to get you bound tothis person as tightly as you
can at the beginning of therelationship so that you'll be
willing to stick with them whenthings are a little bit harder.
Ie, you know, children andhousehold are requiring you to
do things that are difficult.
And you know, I imagine I havenot found myself making I've
(11:44):
never made lifelong commitmentsor decisions while I've been in
the limerence phase with someoneand then, you know, had to kind
of sober up and realize, ohcrap, what have I done?
I think of you know celebrities,you know flying to Vegas and
getting married on sort of awhim when they're in this stage
and then they have to figure outhow to live with it or roll it
(12:05):
back or whatever.
And yeah, I'm glad I've notfound myself in that position.
But I have been in the positionwhere I've been in limerence
with someone and have thought,okay, this is it, this is my
person, I'm going to be withthem forever.
And then it didn't turn outthat way.
So that's why it's so importantto not make decisions with
lifelong consequences whenyou're in the first few months
(12:28):
of being with a new partner yeah, but sometimes you'll get
pressure from the other personto make a person, or your
friends or family, I mean,there's no telling where that
pressure could come from right,and that's why it's important to
say no, I don't.
I don't make decisions like Idon't make these huge decisions
when I'm on drugs, which isessentially what you are.
Dan (12:46):
Yeah, right, yeah.
So he said what kind ofhormones are going on?
Oxytocin.
Charles (12:52):
Yeah, something I haven't even said or pronounced
before.
Let me find it here because itis.
Yeah, he mentioned somechemicals that I had not heard
the name of before Oxytocin,dopamine, phenylethylamine, pea
testosterone, estrogen,serotonin and
dihydropendastosterone huh, okaydhea, you can't eat, you can't
(13:18):
sleep, you can't stopobsessively thinking about your
partner.
You're crazy, excited, head overheels in love and you may find
yourself doing some wild things,and often your partner, who's
going through that with you willwill be in the same boat.
And yeah, it really.
I mean it does feel like you'reon drugs and rash.
Your, what is it?
(13:39):
Your?
Your fear response goes down.
Your ability to look ahead andplan for the future goes down.
I mean, yeah, it's quite atrick that biology plays on you.
Dan (13:55):
It kind of forces you to kind of be in that moment and
then not be able to thinkforward or as easily think
forward, because you're feelingso good in that moment that
you're just focused on thepresent time.
Sometimes that's good to do,but it's sometimes not good to
make long-term plans in thatstate.
Charles (14:11):
Right, that's where you know.
I think you know, havingmaintaining your therapy, your
men's group or your women'sgroup, and talking through this
process with other people thatyou trust and that understand it
is very important because youknow you need you need somebody
to sometimes talk you down alittle bit.
Dan (14:30):
Yeah, because and you need those external people because
they're not feeling, they're noton, they're not on the same
drugs that you are, so theydefinitely will be bringing a
different perspective.
Charles (14:38):
Yeah, and and it's.
It's good to have people likethat in your life that can kind
of check you when you'reexperiencing this, because it's
very difficult for you to checkyourself, other than just having
certain principles like I donot move in with someone that
I've known less than x number ofmonths or years.
I do not marry someone thatI've known less than x number of
years.
I do not fill in the blank.
(14:59):
Whatever those rules are, it'sgood to have those before you
get into the relationship sothat you don't find yourself
just getting completely caughtup and, making you know, putting
your name on a 30-year mortgagewith somebody that you met
three months ago I know a lot ofpeople will, and I've been
guilty of this too is oh well,this person is different.
Dan (15:17):
Like I can, I can shortcut this principle.
You're not.
You're having great reasons whyand I can sign this mortgage
because this person iscompletely different than all
the other ones and stuff.
And it's just like, again,you're judging it under drugs,
right?
Not?
Not with a clear head.
So if friends and family arestarting to ask you some
questions that are gettingannoying to you because they're
(15:39):
saying, oh, you're actingdifferent, you, you know there's
a good chance that you might be, and usually it's going to be
they're going to be mentioningit to you.
For your best interest, justtry not to be so quick to
dismiss that.
Charles (15:53):
Yeah, I agree.
Now I got married pretty youngand my wife was pretty young too
, and we did not have any kindof a prenuptial agreement, or
even really talk about havingone, because we didn't have any
assets.
So what do you need one for it?
Neither of us came fromfamilies with a lot of assets,
so you were engaged.
Did that conversation ever comeup with you and your fiance?
Dan (16:16):
No, it never did.
I mean, neither of us alsodidn't have any assets, didn't
really have any assets or a lotof money at that point and I was
engaged for five months and itwas like before we even sent the
invitations out or anything, wedecided we're not doing it, for
the right reasons.
Charles (16:36):
I think, as I'm older not that I still have much in
the way of assets on paper, Icertainly have my assets are a
very extensive lifestyle where Iget to do what I want all the
time, and I don't think you putthat into.
You don't put that into aprenuptial agreement, but I
would.
I'm just thinking of thisbecause I watched a show
(16:56):
recently where it was about afamily, a woman, getting married
and her family had a lot ofmoney and it's like you know
well.
Well, I'll send you to mylawyer and get the prenup.
Oh, I'm not getting.
It led to a whole bunch of that, but she was.
You know, she met the guyfairly recently, so she was
definitely in the limerencestage and you know, the idea
that they weren't going to betogether forever seemed
(17:18):
preposterous to her.
So why would they need aprenuptial agreement if they're
going to be together for therest of their lives?
Dan (17:24):
So there's so much more behind that.
It's kind of one of thosethings I feel like a lot of
people are like oh well, you'regoing to jinx the relationship
if you have that type of thingRight, and it's just like holy
cow, what's the difference?
If you're going to be together,then you don't need it, but get
it anyway, like you know.
That's why there's a reason.
There's medical insurance, autoinsurance, I mean some of it's
dictated by law, but at the sametime it's like you have it but
(17:47):
you hope you never use it rightit does.
Charles (17:49):
It does feel like what's the point?
It's in that category ofsuperstition and magical
clinking and stuff like thatwhere, yeah, I would say if I,
yeah, if I ever got marriedagain and I was, you know,
worried about any of my assetsor any of her, or she was
worried about hers, then yeah,of course you know why.
Why make a big deal about it?
Part of me is also I.
(18:11):
I'm of the opinion if I wasmarried into money, that's her
money, it's not my money and Idon't need somebody else's
resources.
I'm capable of generating myown resources or regenerating
them if I need to.
Dan (18:24):
I heard a great way of thinking about it.
I don't know who said it, butit was basically the person that
you're marrying is not theperson that you're divorcing.
So that's why you want aprenuptial agreement.
That's true, yeah, because.
And you're not going to be thesame person either.
So let's just be honest.
Charles (18:40):
Yeah, and when something goes through, when
something turns from a personalrelationship into a business
relationship, which isessentially what a divorce is, a
divorce is a businesstransaction that you want to go
into your business transactionsin as strong a position as you
can, or even in as equitableposition as you can.
That's fair to both people.
And so, yeah, yeah, the time tomake that decision of what's
(19:03):
fair is when you're not in themiddle of divorcing the person.
Right, well, you still need theyeah when you still like each
other exactly yeah, um, so yeah,I just thought that one of the
things that goes along with thatlimerick stage is this idea
we're going to be togetherforever, so let's make some huge
decisions right now.
And, yeah, that can definitelyturn around and bite you.
(19:24):
Stage two is trust and knowingif you'll be there for each
other.
So stage two is when thelimerick starts to wear off and
you start looking at thesituation like, okay, do we have
the same values?
Do we feel the same way aboutthings like children and money
and sex, and what is a good life?
And answering those kinds ofquestions and being able to, for
(19:47):
the first time since you've meteach other, being able to
answer them honestly and decideokay, is this the kind of person
that I can stay true to myselfand also stay true to them for
the rest of our lives?
Yeah, you got to kind of askthose, those questions, and on
the one hand, it's harder if youcome up with no's.
It's harder to get out of therelationship because you've been
with them for a while, but onthe other hand you can.
(20:09):
Now that you're not on the samedose of drugs as you were before
, you should be able to look atthose questions a little bit
more reasonably.
And that's also when she's goingto be making decisions like
okay, is this the kind of personthat I can run a household and
raise a family with?
Is he gonna be reliable enoughand trustworthy enough to get
(20:30):
myself into those kinds ofpositions where I'm really
relying on, on his ability toprovide for me emotionally,
financially, in all those ways?
Yeah, a third stage of love isabout loyalty and commitment,
which, again, trustworthinessreally kind of is a vein that
goes through all three of these.
As far as what the woman'slooking for from the man, you
(20:52):
know, are you going to be whoyou claim to be and are you
going to do the things that yousay you're going to do, and it
gets harder and harder tooverlook those failures the
longer you're with somebody, aswell it should, and so if there
are sort of chinks in your armorwhen it comes to being who you
are, or being who you claim tobe and doing what you say you'll
(21:13):
do, then you know, in in stagetwo, that can be where the
breakup happens, yeah, where youknow you've you've not had the
track record of of being who youclaim and doing what you say
you'll do.
Dan (21:27):
And I think it's important to show those chinks in your
armor to your partner is showthat you're not perfect, you
don't have it all figured outRight, because then, as long as
you're being truthful toyourself and to her, I think
that's, that's the foundation ofof all of what you're just
talking about.
Charles (21:46):
Yeah, I agree, he gets into this one part where this
has been a.
This has presented someproblems for me in relationships
before.
And let me know if you, ifyou've had this experience as
well.
You don't need to have similarlikes and dislikes to work as a
couple, but you do need to becompatible in how you handle
conflict and express emotionsand affection.
So I've had relationships wherewe did share likes and dislikes
(22:07):
, like very, very closely, butwe did not share how we handled
conflict and expressed emotionsand affection to each other.
And you know, now, as I'vegotten older, I realized, okay,
well, one of these is importantand the other one is not.
And the sharing the likes andthe dislikes, it feels like, you
know, kind of low-hanging fruitor easy wins, but it's not
(22:28):
nearly as important forforecasting the success of your
relationship as okay, well, doyou actually have the same value
?
Do you?
Do you look at love andrelationships and mental health?
Do you look at those things thesame way as each other?
The expression of emotion, thehow to handle conflict, you know
, do you if those?
If you don't match up on thosethings, then it doesn't matter
(22:50):
that your favorite band or yourfavorite movies to say.
Dan (22:52):
Right, yeah, because that's a good point.
I mean, the likes are the easyones.
Right that are you're going tobe able to find something.
Charles (23:01):
Most likely, and you can very easily.
You can fairly easily changeyour likes.
Yes, you know, the personyou're dating can expose you to
a new TV show or a new band thatyou weren't familiar with
before and you're like, oh yeah,they're pretty good, I like
those, I'd be happy to go totheir concert.
But then you know if, if theway you express emotions or the
way you think about intimacy arenot the same, that's that's
(23:22):
going to be a bit more of aproblem.
Dan (23:24):
Yeah, your communication styles are different, yeah,
especially when it comes time toresolving a problem or thinking
about a problem or an issuethat is far more difficult to
manage and find, I think.
(23:44):
But I also feel like, if youcome from a position where you
were not, as before listening tothis podcast and reading these
books and things, I wasdefinitely more focused on being
right and my ego is getting inthe way A lot of times whenever
I would have an argument,instead of trying to figure out
what the solution is and thenproviding time and space for the
(24:07):
other person to get out,communicate everything that they
need to, that other person toget out, communicate everything
that they need to, and those twolittle things, you know saying
that this person is importantenough and the relationship is
important enough to work on asolution to the problem and not
care how we got there or how weget there.
That and also giving that timeand space, and you know being
(24:29):
able to take some.
Also giving that time and space, and you know being able to
take some.
Maybe some things that don'tsit with me very well, maybe
that I don't agree with, butjust focusing on allowing that
time and space for thecommunication to happen from her
(24:50):
, from the situation, had madesuch a big difference in my life
in terms of my overallhappiness and my ability to come
to solutions and resolveproblems a lot more quickly with
a lot less stress.
So those are the two thingsthat I try to really, and I'm
translating that into just notjust my relationship but with my
girlfriend, but with otherpeople as well, and it's worked
(25:11):
pretty well with my girlfriendbut with other people as well,
and it's worked pretty well.
Charles (25:15):
It's worked pretty well , yeah.
Yeah, my revelations in thatspace have been, you know and we
talk about this all the timewhere any of these techniques,
any of these practices, any ofthese anythings that we
recommend for men to sort ofintegrate into their
relationships, into their lives,are all contingent upon the
belief that I am enough and I'mhealthy enough, I'm good enough.
(25:37):
No matter what happens to me,I'll deal with it, I'll be able
to roll with punches,everything's going to be okay.
And yet, and where?
Yeah, if you and I think youknow, when we talk about the
four horsemen that can doomrelationships and how, you know,
my, my special one, special onethat spends a lot of time
hanging out with me isdefensiveness, and if it's very
(25:59):
easy to feel like you're beingpoked and that idea of I'm good
enough, I'm sufficient, I canhandle anything.
If that gets prodded at andstarts to crumble a little bit,
you're like, oh now, now I'mfeeling like I might not be good
enough, I might not be feelinglike I'm enough for this person
or for this relationship, thenthe defensiveness wall goes up
immediately and, yeah, it takesa lot, of, a lot of
(26:22):
uncomfortable work, to sort ofbuild up that self-image that
tells you no, you're, you'regonna be fine, you can, you can
hand, you've handled.
Crappy stuff has happened toyou before.
Crappy stuff is going to happento you again, and the only
thing all those crappy thingshave in common is that you
survive.
Dan (26:38):
Yeah, no, I think it's great that you look back and you
can look from actual evidenceof you handling things that are
more difficult, or even not asdifficult, but surviving through
it and going hey look, I evencame out better in this
situation than I was before.
So this is an opportunity forfor me to get uncomfortable and
feel a little pain, but I mightactually be a better person
(27:00):
afterwards.
Charles (27:01):
Yeah.
Dan (27:02):
And that's that's been for me.
It's just find the emotionalspace and to remember those
things Right and take in thetime time.
Especially when that whole highstarts getting up right in the
middle of it, it's reallydifficult to think of anything
of other than what's happeningright there in the in the middle
.
Charles (27:19):
Oh, yeah for sure.
Okay, here's.
Here's another one of thesepoints at the end of the chapter
where he gets a little little.
You will know she's the one ifshe makes you feel like you are
your best self and you feel morealive, adventurous, joyful and
loved when you're with her.
But based on what he's talkingabout, with stage one being in
limerence, you feel that way.
If any girl checks off thenecessary biological, cultural
(27:46):
checkpoints, that makes you fallinto limerence with her.
You're going to have all thosefeelings and it can sometimes
have very little to do with whoshe actually is and what she
actually is, and it's about yourchemicals and the way you feel
when you're around her.
And so you're checking off allthese boxes based on these
magical beliefs that are reallymore about your body's hormones
(28:09):
than they are about her, and Iknow I've made the mistake of
superimposing my idea of myideal partner and relationship
upon what I'm currentlyexperiencing.
Dan (28:21):
When I'm in that limb rest it's very easy when you're on
those drugs to kind of combineboth of those and get a little
confused.
Perfect round peg to fit inthis round hole, and then you
must later.
Charles (28:31):
The glasses come off and you're like if she was a
square the whole time.
Right, right yeah, exactly soyeah, that can be, that can be
difficult, and so I, yeah, Iwish, I wish he did a little bit
better job of you know, tellingyou, and and he did it in one
of the earlier chapters he madeit very clear how you know your,
your vision, will be impactedwhen all these hormones are
(28:53):
going crazy.
Dan (28:55):
But then you know, you still use phrases like the one
and it's like you said well, Idon't know if you're, there are
many ones, there are many of theones.
Keep that in mind.
Charles (29:06):
Yeah, there are, but then, you know, finding the one
and making a commitment or aboutdoing what it takes to make a
relationship last.
It's like I don't know, man.
I feel like in my ownexperience, most people, men and
women, are walking aroundwaiting for lightning to strike
and not spending a lot of timethinking.
I don't know how to recognize,you know, real lightning from a
(29:30):
transformer blowing up down theblock, but it's like it's.
It's very easy to make amistake when it comes to that,
and especially if you've got acomplicated relationship with
your mom, your dad, the kind of,you know, marriage or
relationship they modeled foryou when you were a kid.
It's like you know.
What have you done?
Who have you asked?
Who have you done?
Who have you asked?
Who have you talked to?
(29:51):
What have you read?
Who have you listened to?
To do anything to sort ofcalibrate your ideas of what
relationships are supposed tofeel like versus you know what
your parents in the movies havetold you that they're supposed
to feel like and look like.
It's like I don't know, man.
That seems like I mean, becausethis and so many other books
(30:11):
talk about how you know, as men,the most important decision
we'll ever make is you know whatpartner we choose to marry and
start a family with, and we'realmost doing no work to figure
out like, okay, are the criteriathat I am unconsciously
evaluating to find that personremotely close to what they
should be, or am I just goingbased off?
Dan (30:31):
of vibes.
Yeah, and the easier move isjust go off of vibes.
Charles (30:36):
Right, so that was last last tax, yeah and then you end
up with a society where halfthe people are getting divorced
because the vibes change.
Change or don't?
Labs or?
Yeah, absolutely so I don't.
I think, yeah, maybe for ournext book we might need to do
some legwork and see who's outthere talking to you about
(30:58):
making informed choices for howto choose partners, especially
in the context of what kind ofbaggage are you holding on to
from your childhood that you maynot recognize that you're
holding on to.
We'll see what's out there.
Okay, here are the things thatwill make you a zero when it
comes to this.
You refuse to ever commit,meaning you just, you know,
(31:18):
decide to adopt a lifestyle ofI'm going to be a perpetual
bachelor and I'm never going toeven entertain what the possible
benefits of, you know, monogamyor long-term commitment are.
If you think every woman is theone which, more specifically,
would be, every pretty womanthat shows you a little bit of
attention is the one.
(31:38):
You make a commitment to awoman and you don't honor it.
You threaten to leave therelationship and bring up
divorce when you are in upset.
When you are upset or inconflict, yeah, that's
definitely a big no-no.
You don't cherish the woman inyour life, you always think
there might be something betterout there than the woman you
committed to.
You don't sacrifice for therelationship or you don't look
to your relationship as theplace to get your needs met.
So we'll hit a couple of thosereal quick.
(31:59):
If you always think there mightbe something better out there
than the woman you committed to,he mentions that might be a
symptom of agreeing to acommitted relationship with a
woman you've never feltlimerence for.
So if you made decisions thatwere purely based on logic and
checking off some boxes but younever actually felt that, that
(32:21):
chemistry with somebody, then,yeah, those people usually do
end up looking back thinking,ooh, maybe I could have done
better.
Yeah, so that's something tolook out for.
Don't go into this just purelybased on logic.
It's got to be.
You got to keep the logicalside of your brain working as
well as you know.
Look for chemistry and look forjust attraction.
(32:42):
You don't sacrifice for therelationship and I I've got
friends that are dealing withsituations with partners where
when things are good, they'regood, but they're stuck in a
situation with somebody who'snever actually willing to say no
to anything else that they wantfor the purpose of the
relationship, affection of othermen or women or whatever it's
(33:11):
like.
Yeah, if you're a relationshipwhere somebody is not saying I'm
gonna say no to this otherthing so that I can have this
valuable relationship with you,then you're always going to feel
like you're you're in second,third, fourth or fifth place and
never in first place.
You don't look to yourrelationship as a place to get
your needs met, which, yeah,that's, I mean, part of's.
Part of the difficulty orstruggle we can run into in a
(33:33):
social media based culture iswhen you commit to someone,
you're saying the positivefeelings I get from feeling
attractive, it's 100% your jobto make me feel those things now
, and I am not going to belooking for other men or other
women to make me feel special ormake me feel attractive,
(33:55):
because then you run into what?
What if you meet somebody elsewho's better at making you feel
attractive than your partner is?
Then you're going to continueto try to solicit that feeling
from that other person andthat's going to be bad for your
relationship.
Dan (34:10):
So Glover summed it up a relationship should be the icing
on the cake and not the cakeitself.
To try to solicit that feelingfrom that other person, and
that's going to be bad for yourrelationship.
Charles (34:17):
Glover summed it up A relationship should be the icing
on the cake and not the cakeitself of your life.
Right, right, yeah, yeah.
If you feel perpetually notgood enough, then anyone who
comes along and makes you feelspecial is going to be
potentially a very disruptivepresence to the other things
that you value in your life,like your romantic partnership
with your long-term monogamouspartner.
So if you're always kind offeeling like I don't know if I'm
(34:40):
good enough, I don't know ifI'm enough, and then some
good-looking guy or gal comesalong and tells you things or
makes you feel things in a waythat your long-term partner has
not been doing, or or even ifthey do do it, but it doesn't
feel as novel and as special asit, you know, when you're used
to hearing, hey, you're goodlooking from the same person for
years and years, then whensomebody else comes along that's
(35:03):
that's why it's important tokeep up those boundaries and not
really, not really openyourself up to people coming
along and in making you feelthat way.
So yeah, that's very important.
Anything else from this chapterthat you wanted to get into?
Again, I was just a little bit.
It felt a little woo-woo to me.
You know how I hate books, thatI bring any woo-woo into
(35:23):
anything.
So what part was woo-woo foryou Any time where he mentioned
the one?
Dan (35:29):
You'll know it's the one if dot, dot, dot, yeah it's like
that's to have a whole chapterabout this and not really get
into it in terms of I feel like,yeah, it wasn't really
explained.
Well, I feel what, who?
That that one is right.
I mean, I don't even hold, Idon't even really like the idea
(35:50):
of using the term the one,because that sets an expectation
of to me.
That person is completely what.
The situation is controllable,right, and people change and,
and so they could be the one atthe beginning, they could be
compatible with you.
So I feel like, you know, maybeit's just a cute way of saying
(36:11):
how do you improve the odds orincrease the odds of meeting
somebody that you're going tostay with for the rest of your
life?
And I guess it's a little biteasier to say the one.
But the the issue that I haveis there's like no talk about
the other person changing in away that maybe isn't compatible
with with you, because you can'tcontrol a lot of external
(36:36):
things in your world, and thatincludes your partner, or they
potentially could change in waysthat aren't compatible with you
know what you want and what you, you, you guys, you know came
together as a couple at thebeginning with.
So, yeah, I feel like therecould be a little bit more meat
in this chapter.
Charles (36:53):
Yeah, I look at the one as a term that is completely
backward, looking like, yes,she's the one I've chosen, she's
the one I've committed to, butnot a term that you use for
before you've decided that she'sthe one.
It's.
Oh, I think I found the one.
(37:14):
It's like well, have you?
Have you decided that she's theone?
Then she's not the one if youhaven't already made that
decision.
It's just, she's potentially agood match.
She might be the best matchthat you found so far that
you'll ever find.
But the, the idea, yeah, it doesfeel like there's something
metaphysical or spiritual or woowoo about this.
(37:38):
That, yeah, as as someone who'sbeen in relationships with
people that I thought were goingto be the one and it didn't
work out that way, yeah, it'slike okay, if it.
If it happens once where you'rewrong, you get this wrong.
Then and I think dr gotman wasmarried before, oh, really, his
wife julie too and it's like howcan you, how can you still talk
(38:03):
about things in that way whereyou went into a relationship
completely convinced that youfigured out, you got it right,
and then it turned out you werewrong?
It's like, yeah, I don't seehow and I'm not down on
remarriage or second marriagesor anything like that.
But I do feel like when youtalk about relationships in
(38:25):
those terms and you get proventhat it doesn't always work out
that way, in a very personal way, maybe it's time to outgrow
that kind of talk and sort ofleave it behind, because that's
the way I feel about it yeah, no, I, I see that sure anyway, all
right, that's where we are forthat chapter.
the next one will be see chapter14, mother nature understanding
(38:48):
women and children.
And yeah, that'll beinteresting to talk about the
levels of commitment andaffection that women have for
their offspring versus the, thefeelings they have for their
partners and how men react tothat.
I'm hoping to get into that abit on the next one.
So, thanks very much, and youand I will talk about this again
(39:11):
next week.
Sounds good, sir.
Bye, bye-bye.
Thank you so much for stickingwith us for the whole episode,
dan, and I certainly appreciateit.
Again, please check out ourwebsite mindfullymasculinecom
for all the news that's fit toshare, as well as our full audio
and video episodes.
Thanks again, bye-bye.
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