January 13, 2025 • 34 mins
In this insightful episode of Mindfully Masculine, Charles and Dan dive into the surprising significance of shopping in relationships. Inspired by insights from The Man’s Guide to Women by John and Julie Gottman, they explore how shopping can influence communication, emotional connection, and overall relationship health.
Key Topics Discussed:
- How shopping dynamics differ between men and women.
- Understanding societal and cultural perspectives on shopping.
- The role of shopping in cultivating style and self-expression.
- Biological and historical roots of shopping habits.
- Tips for navigating crowded malls and managing shopping stress.
- Why shopping is a long-term predictor of relationship success.
- The art of supporting your partner’s shopping habits (even if you don’t love it).
Takeaways for Listeners:
Charles and Dan offer practical advice for men who want to strengthen their relationships by understanding their partner's shopping mindset. They also share tips for balancing personal boundaries with active support, avoiding conflict, and finding ways to make shopping more enjoyable for both partners.
Don’t Miss:
The insightful discussion on how shopping habits reflect deeper emotional and social connections—and why criticizing your partner’s purchases may be more harmful than you realize.
Connect With Us:
Visit mindfullymasculine.com to explore all our episodes and discover additional resources designed to help men thrive in their personal lives, relationships, and beyond.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Charles (00:00):
Welcome back to the Mindfully Masculine Podcast.
This is Charles.
In this episode, dan and I willcontinue our discussion of the
Man's Guide to Women by theGottmans and we will get into
shopping dynamics, perspectivesand opinions on shopping
typically held by men and womenand how they differ, navigating
those differences, how shoppingpractices and goals and
(00:21):
expectations can affectrelationship, health,
communication strategies, somesocietal and cultural
observations, understanding andsupporting the women in our
lives and mitigating potentialconflicts, as well as some other
topics.
Please check out our website,mindfullymasculinecom.
We post our audio episodes, ourvideo episodes and any other
(00:41):
information we find worthy toshare and enjoy.
Dan (00:45):
Hey, Charles, good morning.
Charles (00:47):
Hey, dan, welcome back.
I was going to change the colorof our lights, which will make
it easier for me to tell whichepisode is which, and I forgot
to do that, so I'm going to doit right now, before our very
eyes.
Ooh love it.
See, I love that green.
Let me make it a little bitmore blue.
We've got these fancy lightsthat are remote controlled by an
app a little too much.
(01:07):
Okay, I like it there.
So, yeah, there we are.
We just finished our ourepisode a little bit about the
conflict resolution, things likethat which is in this section
of how to live with a woman, andbig function of living with a
woman is procuring the resourcesyou need to have a life and a
(01:28):
home together, and that'susually done through the process
of shopping, and so we're goingto talk a little bit about how
to shop like a girl.
Look, I'll be honest, this hasnever been much of a problem for
me.
I don't mind going shopping,and I think part of that was
growing up in the rural area ofFlorida that I did in the
(01:51):
mid-80s.
Going to the shopping mall waslike everything.
That's where you went tosocialize, that's where you went
to have fun, that's where youwent to go to the movies.
I don't think it was just here.
Dan (02:03):
I think it was back then no-transcript.
Charles (02:28):
So then eventually many of us got jobs at the mall and
it was the center of our socialexperience, based on the ages.
You're 50, I'm 47.
So I still enjoy going to themall, like when when I'm on a
kick to get my steps in and theweather's not perfect in in my
estimation meaning it's too hotin florida or too rainy that I'm
(02:51):
spending my time walking arounda shopping mall getting my
steps in that way, and so goingshopping for clothes or home
goods or whatever with the womanin my life it's always been
something I've enjoyed.
So when I watch all the tropethe sitcom tropes about how much
guys hate shopping, I'm justnot one of those guys, so I
don't completely identify withit.
Dan (03:11):
Yeah, my mom used to take me shopping with her when I was
younger, and I didn't reallyenjoy it at the time because I
didn't have any resources to buyanything myself.
Right, it seemed like it was alot more torturous back then,
when I was a kid, because a lotof it was spent with my mom
looking at shoes or dresses orwhatever, and there really
wasn't anything for me to dothere other than sometimes sit
(03:34):
under the clothes rack or try tohide from her or whatever but
or sit there.
So now, when I go and I havesome resources to buy my own
thing or and there's a lot morethings that I'm interested in to
look at it's not nearly as badas when I was a kid.
So that's where my base levelis.
So I really don't mind going.
And if I know, though, againsetting the intention ahead of
(03:57):
time, that we're not going infor a targeted a purchase and
then leaving, we've, we're justgoing.
Okay, we're going to go andspend a few hours at the mall
looking at for stuff.
We'll see what's there.
If I, if that's beencommunicated ahead of time, then
I'm.
It's a lot more tolerable forme and almost enjoyable.
Charles (04:13):
Yeah, yeah, the.
The only thing that makes itunenjoyable for me is usually
the crowds at the mall.
Um, so I tend to.
I had to go to the Florida mallto pick up.
I had something oh, it was anew shirt that I bought sent to
the Macy's at the Florida mall,because oftentimes when you buy
online for store pickup, it'sthe bigger stores that already
(04:35):
have it physically in thebuilding, so you can get it that
day or the next day instead ofhaving to wait five to seven
business days for it to getdelivered to the store close to
your house.
And so, since I travel TampaOrlando so much, I'll look and
see okay, where could I, wherecould I have this waiting for me
the next time I pass by thatstore?
And in the case of the OrlandoTampa area, it's either the
(04:57):
international mall in Tampa,which is the fancy one, or it's
the mall millennium Orlando orthe Florida mall.
So, as a result, I find myselfin those malls most often, and
around the holidays those arethe ones.
Florida mall is probably theworst.
Malt Millenia can get crowded,but not insane.
Where Florida mall, it's boththe biggest mall in Orlando and
(05:19):
it's the most touristy mall inOrlando, so you get a lot of
people from other states, othercountries, that are just walking
around looking at stuff and so,yeah, making your way around
that mall in any kind of andagain, it's a targeted mission,
I've got one thing at the mall,at the one store that's waiting
for me.
I've been there enough to knowif you're picking up something
from Macy's, you don't park atMacy's, you park outside of
(05:40):
Dick's Sporting Goods and thenyou walk over to Macy's.
You park outside of Dick'sSporting Goods and then you walk
over to Macy's because you canget great parking outside of
Dick's but you can't get goodparking outside of Macy's.
And yeah, it's like I've got awhole agenda and a whole mission
to get in and get out, becauseI know that the crowds are going
to be miserable.
Where in the middle of summer,where it's not so crowded, I'll
think, oh, okay, and then I'llgo to Macy's, but yeah, the
holiday crowds that mall areridiculous.
(06:01):
That can be frustrating to me.
So that would probably be asituation where if my partner
was like, hey, let's go kill acouple hours looking for stuff
at the mall, my thing would belike okay, which mall are we
(06:22):
going to?
What time of day are we goingto?
What can we do to minimize thefactors that would make this as
unpleasant on me as possible,while still giving you what
you're looking for in theexperience?
Because one of the things thatwe'll get to later is the idea
of if you hate this, don't do it, because if you hate it, you're
(06:42):
going to be not fun to bearound while you're doing it,
and that I apply that rule to alot of things that I hate, where
it's like, if you want me to goto a concert of your favorite
artists and I'm not into livemusic and I'm not into their
music, then the conflict thatarises from me saying no is
(07:02):
preferable to the conflict thatarises from me saying yes and
being a miserable prick thewhole time I'm there.
Dan (07:08):
One of the things that you could consider is trying to find
things that you can only do atthat mall.
So maybe it's eating some junkfood that you don't normally eat
.
You're going to treat yourselfto a pretzel or some Chinese
food, or whatever it is thathelp.
Charles (07:22):
All right, let's find what's a little treat, or the
mall does have a Shake Shack anda Cheesecake restaurant that
are both pretty high end.
Dan (07:27):
Incorporate that with the day.
Or go in and stop at the Applestore and take a look at some of
the latest technology there, orfind yourself if she's going to
look at shoes, look at whatother stores are there and see
(07:48):
no-transcript.
I love doing that.
Charles (07:51):
Yes, absolutely.
Dan (07:52):
Yeah, just find ways to break it up where it's not just
you waiting around for her to goshopping and pick something out
.
Charles (07:59):
Yeah, and I'll repeat a couple of the notes that we hit
during I think it was atomicattraction, where, when I go to
the mall to look for clothes formyself, most of the other
shoppers that I encounter in themen's department are women who
are buying clothes for the menin their life oh interesting.
(08:19):
I recommend against being a manwho has his clothes shopping
done for him, because that putsyou in the category of someone
whose responsibility it is it'syour wife's responsibility to
dress them.
Dan (08:38):
I feel like we call those people children.
I was about to say.
Charles (08:41):
I feel like you're putting yourself in that
category of yes, of beingoffspring that she's responsible
for taking care of, becausethey can't do it on the on their
own.
Dan (08:50):
And.
Charles (08:50):
And I would say Nothing builds attraction like being
one of her children, correct orthought of as one of her
children, not want to be thoughtof as a child or a dependent on
your wife.
So I would say one of thethings you can do on these
shopping excursions that you maynot be super excited about is
build your skill as a shopperfor menswear.
(09:10):
And even if that's just lookingaround and deciding I like that
, I hate that, oh I could wearthat, I would never wear that.
Just going walking around anddoing aware of what's out there,
doing some of that evaluation,connoissance mission Exactly
what is my style, what kind ofstuff am I into?
What kind of stuff am I notinto?
If you're like me, it's veryhard to.
I'm hard to buy gifts forbecause I just I see things I
(09:34):
want and I just buy them.
But yeah, once you put in alittle bit of work to cultivate
a personal style what shirts,what accessories, what belts,
what kind of stuff are you intowearing Then when it's time for
your birthday or Christmas, youcan give people clues like oh
yeah, I saw something that Iliked the other day and it was
this.
Or yeah, just, I certainly dosay take the time to care enough
(09:58):
about your style that you wantto shop for your own clothes.
And again, if your wife isbuying, or your girlfriend's
buying, bed sheets or curtainsor something that you find, it's
one thing.
If you're going lingerieshopping with your girlfriend,
it's pretty easy to stayinvolved in that, but if it's we
need a new mixer or we need anew air fryer and you don't have
a lot of interest in that, thenyeah, go spend your time in a
(10:22):
decent men's department and andtake some just mental notes even
of what your style is, whatyou're into, what you like.
Maybe, if you see somethingthat's a good deal, go ahead and
buy it for yourself, and thatwill make these trips.
It'll make you more attractiveto your partner because you'll
be cultivating a sense of styleand women like that, and you'll
(10:43):
also have a way to spend thetime that you don't find
torturous.
So that's one thing I wouldsuggest to do.
So where does this come from?
We always talk about Most ofour history was as
hunter-gatherers.
Specifically, the men were thehunters and the women were the
gatherers.
Dan (10:59):
Now it's funny because it makes total sense when he
explained that right and I'veheard that for years and years
but never have.
Charles (11:08):
I ever Good point the gatherings and shopping.
Dan (11:11):
Or women with the gathering and men with the hunting.
But, yes, that makes totalsense, but I never thought it,
just I never.
I never thought about it thatway.
And then it starts to lead youdown the path that he takes us
on the book, and it's insightful.
Charles (11:25):
Yeah, absolutely, and yeah, it feels functional and it
feels like important work for awoman to go out and find the
appropriate resources that sheneeds or that the family needs.
Dan (11:35):
Right, it's important for the men too, because she's
providing some additionalsustenance for you.
Also, medicine that part ofthat gathering was not just food
.
It was, you know, medicine, itwas things, branches, yeah,
whatever's needed to keep peoplealive.
Charles (11:51):
Yeah, and so that's where her clothes or the houses,
the new curtains for the livingroom, it all.
Still it scratches that itchthat women have in going out and
finding the right thing for thejob and bringing it back to the
cave and so providing yeah,exactly, and so just shutting
that down and deciding I don'tlike it, so you're not doing it,
or you, I don't like it, so I'mnot going to go with you when
you do it.
If you yeah.
(12:12):
If you can't figure out a wayto make it at least bearable, if
not pleasant, if not enjoyable,then yeah, it's better if you
just leave her to it.
But there is an opportunitycost there.
When you say, hey, I realizethis is important to you, this
is something you're into.
I'm not going because I can'tfigure out a way to not hate it,
then yeah, you're going to.
You're going to take yourselfdown a peg as a partner.
Dan (12:34):
Unless you spend the time to find other ways to connect
with her.
Charles (12:37):
Correct.
Dan (12:38):
Yeah, it's a low.
I think it's like a lowinvestment of time and energy to
just go shopping with yourwoman and have that sense of
connection, and I think, yeah,you're missing out on an
opportunity to really solidifythe relationship.
So then we do have conflicts,which is what we talked about in
the last podcast.
Yes, yeah, that's something weget a lot, it's a lot easier for
(13:01):
that woman or for you also, tocalm down and realize that hey
look, there's a lot of reasonswhy we should be de-escalating
our emotions, because there's somuch good here.
And if you're doing thingsregularly where you're
connecting on that level itdoing things regularly where
you're connecting on that levelit's a lot easier to remember
when things are stressed.
Charles (13:17):
Yeah, and I think we could have hit that a little
heavier on the last episodes.
I'm glad you brought that up.
That, yeah, if you are investedin each other's lives and your
good friends, your goodcompanions, you have a lot of
positive time together whenyou're not either in an argument
or in bed.
Then, yeah, it makes it a loteasier, when a conflict does
(13:40):
come up, to remember, hey, whyis it worth working through this
problem, instead of just losingyour stack and saying screw it,
screw this relationship, screwthis partnership.
I'm done, sure, and yeah, Ithink, um, what's the rule about
it Taking five positiveinteractions to offset every one
negative interaction, orsomething like that?
Dan (14:01):
So it might even be more?
Charles (14:02):
Yeah, it might be, and uh, we'll, we'll try to get the
details.
I don't know if that was fromthis book.
I don't think it was.
I think it was from somethingelse that we read that, uh, yeah
, every negative interactionsare unfairly weighted compared
to positive interactions, and soit's important that you offset
those negative experiences thatwill come and that you will have
(14:22):
to deal with lots of positiveexperiences.
And yeah, I don't remember itmight have been compliments
versus negative words orsomething like that, but there's
a ratio there that reinforcesthe idea that you need lots of
positive interactions to offsetthe negative ones.
That will eventually happen.
Dan (14:39):
Again, it comes back to how we're wired and our brains are
wired for danger, pleasure anddanger Danger.
So when we get negativefeedback, it's going to be a lot
more powerful because we'regoing to feel that a lot more
and whenever we feel things more, we remember them more easily,
and that's unfortunate when it'sthe negative stuff.
Charles (14:55):
Yeah, easily, and that's unfortunate when it's the
negative stuff, yeah.
Another thing to keep in mindthat shopping for women is an
expression of creativity and itcan be a positive social
experience for them as well,which might mean they're more
into talking to other customersand shopkeepers and salespeople
than you are.
I am not by any means intotalking to people when I am
(15:16):
shopping at all.
I would rather be left aloneand leave other people alone.
I opt into self-checkouts.
Every single experience, everyopportunity I have to use a
self-checkout, I'm going to usea self-checkout.
Yeah, yeah.
I like to minimize my humaninteractions when I'm out to
find something that I'm specific, that I'm looking for, with
some exception.
Dan (15:35):
Let me then ask you do you feel like you are limiting your
yourself by doing that easylittle thing, just by by going
to a checkout and having to havea two, two second conversation
with somebody who's workingthere?
Do you feel like that's, thatis, that that could be an
opportunity for growth for you?
No, all right.
(15:56):
Next topic All right, all right, we'll move on.
Charles (15:58):
I don't.
I could be wrong.
Listen, there's a chance thatI'm wrong about this, but I do
not feel like I'm missing out.
So, yeah, there are somedifferences where I'll say it
like this If I'm in a situationwhere I can have a conversation
with someone who knows theirproduct better than I do, then I
look forward to those.
Okay, so if I go into the AllenEdmonds shoe store and I have a
(16:22):
conversation with one of thesales guys working there, I seek
out conversations like thatbecause I know a lot about their
shoes and they know even morethan I do and I I get excited
about that.
Dan (16:31):
Yeah.
Charles (16:32):
Whereas if I'm popping into Macy's and I'm buying a new
pair of Levi's or new poloshirt or something like that, I
probably know more about theproduct I'm interested in than
you do and I also know moreabout the colors that work for
me, the colors I look good in,the colors I like wearing.
There's really not somebodythat what I would consider a mid
(16:53):
to low tier salesperson isgoing to be able to bring me.
Dan (16:57):
Okay.
Charles (16:58):
And then so am I.
So then, otherwise, am I justlooking to have random
conversations with random people?
Not really.
Dan (17:05):
For me.
I I'm not looking for aconversation necessarily out of
somebody who's working thecheckout line, cause most of the
time I actually do go to thecheckout lines not for any
reason other than.
Charles (17:18):
You've been at Target and Publix and stuff.
Dan (17:20):
Yeah, Really yeah, as long as three years older than me.
Yeah, as long as the line isn'tmore than two or three people
back.
I don't, I just naturally do it.
I don't really consciouslythink about it, but I realize
that I do enjoy it becauseusually there's a little bit of
a hey, how's it going?
You get a smile, Maybe theygive you a compliment on
(17:42):
something that you're wearing,or the or oh, I wanted to try
this food too.
Is it really good?
And it's just a little bit ofmakes me feel good because I
feel like it was a positiveexperience and 95% of the time
it is.
There's 5% where they're nothaving a good day and they're
not giving me any positiveenergy out of that, but more
(18:06):
often than not it's just, it's alittle pick me up and I usually
feel a little bit better likewalking out of there.
Just even if it's just a hey,how's it going?
And I get a smile kind of thing.
Interesting, that's funny and Ididn't have to earn it at all.
It's just a hey, how's it going, and I get a smile kind of
thing.
That's funny.
And I didn't have to earn it atall.
It's just that they're just.
Charles (18:19):
that's part of the process, that when they're
checking me out, On the otherway, where I would stand in line
to use a machine rather thanjust walk to a cashier's line
that's completely empty,potentially get me out of there
even faster and probably bag mygroceries in a more interesting,
more trained way.
But yeah, maybe that's just afunction of my introversion, I
don't know.
Women make about 85% of thebuying decisions for the
(18:44):
household.
I would be uncomfortable withthat number as somebody running
a household or not running ahousehold, being a participating
member of a household.
If there was that much of adisparity, that would bother me
a little.
How would you feel if you wereto live with someone again?
How would you feel about hermaking 85% of the purchasing
decisions?
No, you wouldn't be down forthat, nor would I.
Dan (19:03):
Okay, are we talking dollar-wise or volume-wise,
right?
So that's the thing, right, I'mgoing to say dollar-wise
groceries and like little thingslike that or whatever, not a
problem if it's just pure amountof stuff.
But if it's an actual dollarvalue where we're both
contributing quite a bit to ourfinancial situation and I for
(19:27):
high ticket items, just like Iwouldn't expect her to be okay
with me making most of thedecisions about really expensive
, if we're sharing money or ifthe decision that I'm making is
going to affect her and herfinancial situation, like buying
a new air conditioner or a newwasher dryer.
Exactly those are, I think,conversations that need to be
(19:48):
had, yeah, decisions that needto be made.
Charles (19:49):
Yeah, I would usually be more like, hey, I've got some
opinions, I'm going to takepoint on this no-transcript to
go out and see what I like.
Yeah, let's talk more aboutwomen in shopping.
Shopping, yeah, will oftenrequire a good memory as far as
(20:13):
comparing.
Oh, I saw this thing I liked atthis store.
I saw this thing at this store.
This one was this much, thisone was this much.
They had my size here, theydidn't have my size here.
There's a lot of work that goesinto that.
That women's memory tends to bemore optimized for than ours is
.
Dan (20:26):
Yeah, he cited a study where it showed that when the
women have better memory thanmen and that was basically
proven or supported by the, whenthey had the people come into a
room and basically they'd havethem sit there for I don't know
like 20 minutes before they'dmove them into a different room
and they'd ask them.
(20:46):
And it was.
I think it was a room full of,like hoarding, so it was,
somebody had hoarded a bunch ofstuff and the men would go into
the other room and how manyobjects did you remember out of
that other room?
On average, it was seven.
For women it was 20, wow, andthey were just sitting there for
20 minutes or so.
Yeah, and that was.
That was a pretty, prettyshocking difference.
(21:08):
Yeah, and it makes sensebecause they needed, when they
were gathering, they needed toknow, okay, what markings on
what plants indicated that theywere gathering.
They needed to know, okay, whatmarkings on what plants
indicated that they were edibleor poisonous, or what was
medicine, what was not justknowing where to go for things.
And remember, hey, this plantgrew over in this area and these
berries were over there, and soa lot of that is again just, I
(21:30):
think, built into the ancestorsof the women that you know alive
back then, right yeah.
Charles (21:35):
And the ones that lasted long enough to to
reproducing and keep their kidssafe enough to reproduce?
Yeah, okay, we did mention that.
As a man, you can be verymission focused when it comes to
shopping, where you just go in,get the thing you're looking
for and leave Again.
I spend some of my time thatway and I spend some of my time
just kind of lollygagging aboutthe mall, looking at things and
(21:55):
getting steps in and justspending time in that
environment.
But women definitely associateshopping with more social
connection and emotionalconnection than men typically do
Not always, but typically.
Research shows that the degreeto which a woman is clothes
conscious is a long-termpredictor of marital success.
(22:18):
We both had relationships thatfailed or ended, for whatever
reason.
It has certainly been myexperience that how much my
partner partner cared about her,her style, her appearance, what
she was wearing, how she lookedas the relationship got closer
(22:39):
and closer to ending, the amountof care that she put into those
things certainly decreased.
Have you found that to be thecase in your history as well?
Not?
Dan (22:48):
always Okay, but, yes, there have been times where the
person I was dating just tookless and less care of you.
Know how she presented herselfand, to be honest, I was guilty
of that as well, oh yeah, whereit was either a lot of weight
gain or it was just On your part.
Charles (23:07):
On my part.
Yes, yeah On my part, or.
Dan (23:10):
Yeah, also probably holding on to clothes that Should have
been retired, probably.
Yeah, yeah and just yeah, not,not focusing on being my best
self for myself or my partner.
Charles (23:22):
Yeah, so I guess, that being the case, the fact that
actual scientific research showsthat the more more closed
conscious she is, the morelikely she, the marriage or the
relationship, is going to last,that would probably be a good
reason to do things thatencourage her interest in
shopping to remain strong.
(23:44):
Yeah, yeah, I would say so.
If you had to tamp down thatinterest in procuring clothing
and shoes and things that makeher feel like she is stylish,
then she is going to care.
You're basically incentivizingher to not care about how she
looks if you're making shoppinga difficult process for her.
Dan (24:07):
Yeah, and that also supports previous chapters in
the book where he talks aboutsupporting and loving your
partner in terms of giving themlittle compliments about the way
they look here and thererandomly, authentically, and
just loving the way she looksand how she is now and enjoying
and making her feel like she'sbeautiful and she's attractive
(24:28):
and she's attractive to you, andall those things will build
positive reinforcement.
And I think a lot of that alsogoes by the wayside because
people they fall into one ofthese, the four horsemen of the
apocalypse of the ending of arelationship, and they end up
not expressing those things andthey did at the beginning of the
relationship or before theywere married, and now it's gone,
and so I think again, a lot ofthese things are just end up
(24:51):
becoming spiraling viciouscycles that really are difficult
because a lot of times we'renot even aware that it's
happening and that what onething does is contributing to
the other and it's going in thewrong direction, until sometimes
it's too late, sometimes youdon't even realize until you go
to a therapist and at that pointyou're just you guys have
checked, both checked out atthat point and you may be able
(25:13):
to check in, or you may.
Charles (25:15):
there may be no checking back point.
The one thing I thought he wasthe end of the list of the sort
of cheat sheet for heroes hereis don't complain if she spends
a lot of time shopping for shoes, specifically high heels, and
there's a little section in here.
I didn't.
I was not familiar with theterm lordosis before I read this
book Me either which is thecourting posture of mammals
where a female mammal will havean arched back, thrust out,
(25:39):
buttocks and I think also hipsthat are forward, yep, and that
is, in the animal kingdom, asymbol of sexual readiness.
So that's why, as a species,we're all into high heels.
I thought that was interestingand, yeah, we like the way a
woman's body looks when it'sbeing supported by high heels.
And yeah, I would say, don'tpoo the idea of her wanting to
(26:04):
spend time and some money onsome shoes, having nice shoes to
wear, and yeah, you'll usuallyenjoy that.
I will say that there is anotherpart of this book where he
offers some strategies on makingthe trip to the mall or the
store easier.
Bring a book, bring your iPod.
I guess those were a thing whenhe wrote this Catch up on email
(26:25):
, find an arcade, find ways toentertain yourself if you can't
stand looking at the clotheswith her.
Yeah, he also uses the, theword, the phrase man up again,
which again I feel like if wecould get rid of the phrase man
up in in most situations, Ithink we would probably be
better off as a species.
Yeah, that's a criticism thatI've definitely expressed before
(26:49):
in this book and it's funnybecause I feel like gotman knows
better.
Yeah, and well, he definitelydoes.
Yeah, and so it's a shortcutfor just do it, get over it.
But it really seems like youknow not helpful.
I'm not going to say this toanybody in my practice.
I'm not going to tolerateanybody saying this to me, but I
want to sell this book to somedumb guys too, so I'm going to
(27:10):
go ahead and throw it in there,because maybe it'll resonate
with them which feelscondescending to me, and it
probably is in some respect.
Dan (27:18):
but if it sells more books and it gets it and it helps the
medicine go down in some respect, right, Then that's the listen,
that's his style.
When you write your book, youdon't need to do that.
Charles (27:28):
Correct, you're right.
You're right.
I think there's still more goodthings than bad, some of the
things that you should not do.
You should not neglect tounderstand a woman's
relationship to shopping.
You should not judge orcriticize her for shopping.
You should not expect her toshop the way that you shop when
you're on your own and you wantto just pop in, grab the thing
you want and leave.
Don't criticize her purchasesor her appearance, and that's
(27:51):
the other thing.
When it comes to criticizingthe outfits, the style, the way
she looks, the time to havefeedback or input on these
decisions is when she's shopping.
So when she's in the dressingroom trying something on and
walking it out to show it to youfor your opinion, then you
could have an opinion on howthat specific outfit looks Once
(28:13):
she's already decided shespecific outfit looks.
Once she's already decided shelikes it.
Dan (28:16):
Once she's bought it, when she's brought it home, once it's
sat in the closet for sixmonths and then she wears it for
the first dinner out, that'snot the time to say you don't
like it yeah, I think, guys, weneed to look at this also and
realize that this comes from ourhistory, where we were
providing in the form of huntingand they were providing in the
(28:37):
form of gathering, and so thisis really tied to self-worth and
self-esteem.
Even though if she's buyingdresses and purses for herself,
it is still like a reflectionand I feel tied a little bit
more closely to the value thatshe has of herself.
And so, if you're going tocriticize some of the decisions
that she's making, be careful towalk, tread lightly when you're
(28:58):
doing that, and maybe even justsuck it up and man up and not
say anything if you don't likesome of these purchases, because
then I think it's a real easyit's not a far leap for the
woman then to feel like she'snot providing for the family or
there's something wrong with theway.
So let's turn it around.
What if she was criticizingabout the way you do your job
(29:20):
right, or the money that you'rebringing home or not bringing
home, or the decisions you'remaking at work right, or in the
way that you are providing forthe family, whatever that looks
like, and turn that around.
How would you feel?
Probably not great Right,especially if it was like she
wasn't there and you're makingthese decisions.
It's same thing if she'sshopping and you weren't there
(29:43):
and then she comes home and thenyou make you make these
criticisms.
I think we need to be carefuland just realize there's
probably a lot more personalattachment to some of the
shopping habits than we realize,yeah, and a lot of that stuff
is hard-coded and we can't talkpeople out of it.
Charles (29:59):
We can't.
Logically, you can't talk itout and again a lot of this
hunting-gathering model that wehave today and in most cases,
let's be honest, she's probablydoing the hunting and the
gathering and you're just doingthe hunting.
From a financial aspect, mostwomen also have a job and most
women are doing 85% of thepurchasing decisions.
So really we've changed to amodel where they're doing the
(30:23):
hunting and the gathering andwe're doing just the hunting,
and our second job iscriticizing their gathering.
Yeah, that's doesn't feel likea risk for long-term success.
Dan (30:33):
No, there's a reason probably why this divorce rate
is so high is and people don'tstay together as much.
Yeah, it's probably.
Yeah, I think that's anaccurate statement.
Charles (30:42):
Yeah, so keep that in mind.
Definitely, don't find yourselfin a position where you hate
shopping but you're going alonganyway and making both of you
miserable.
That's not.
That shouldn't be seen as anoption.
Dan (30:52):
Um, that shouldn't be in any activity, even shop, and
regardless of shop and anythingin your life, if you're gonna go
somewhere and you're about tolearn how to enjoy it and right.
Charles (31:00):
Can't learn how to enjoy it, then don't do it don't
bring positive.
Dan (31:04):
It don't bring negative energy to any situation if you
can avoid it yeah, don't assumethat all women love to shop.
Charles (31:10):
Every woman is different.
There's a good chance that sheloves to shop and, if she does,
try to encourage that and makeit as pleasant for her as you
can.
But also you might not be witha woman who loves to shop and
you might be a guy that loves toshop, so you might be making
trips to the mall by yourself,and if so, then do that and have
a good time and enjoy it asbest you can and just realize
(31:31):
that you're in a somewhatatypical, but not crazy weird
situation.
Dan (31:36):
Yeah, I think the point of this chapter is to realize
there's deep ingraineddifferences in the way that we
go about shopping in terms ofmen and women.
I thought that was reallyimportant and I think just being
aware of that has reduced atleast my own levels of
frustration.
It's not like this has been abig thing for me.
(31:58):
A big problem for me, like Isaid, is because I was going
shopping with my mom as a kidfor hours and hours at times, so
it's not been that big of adeal for me.
But just knowing that, beingaware of that, makes it a little
bit easier to properly prepareand support those types of
activities.
Charles (32:18):
Yeah, I did get some new insights from this chapter
as well, and the thing I likemaybe the thing I like the most
is the insight of if you hatesomething and you can't train
yourself to not be miserable atit, then just don't do it,
because it's a very codependent,nice guy thing to just go along
with something that you hateuntil eventually you build up
(32:40):
resentment and you blow your topover doing feeling like you're
being forced to do something youdon't want to do.
Dan (32:45):
It's okay.
You're discovering somethingabout yourself.
You're discovering what youlike and what you don't like and
that's a big thing, for a lotof nice guys is not really
knowing what you like or whatyou're feeling.
What you're feeling.
This is great information.
Charles (32:56):
And.
But like you said, though, ifyou're going to write off the
experience of going shoppingwith your partner, you got to
find some other things toconnect over and tell her that
you're making a conscious effort.
Hey, listen, I'm never going tobe the guy that likes going to
the mall and spending hours justwalking around brushing clothes
that are hanging up and feelingtheir texture.
I can't do this with you, butlet's figure out something, some
(33:19):
other things that we really dolike setting time aside to do
together, yeah, and connect in asimilar way, if we can.
Next chapter we're going to getinto friendship and
understanding women andfriendship, and at the very end
of chapter 12, we'll even coverwhat to do if she has guy
friends, and how you recognizepotential red flags about that,
(33:41):
or how, when there's no redflags, you can just learn to be
comfortable with that situation.
So that's what we'll talk aboutnext time.
Thanks very much, dan.
It sounds good.
See you later.
Bye-bye.
Thank you so much for stickingaround for the entire episode,
dan, and I certainly appreciateit again.
Just a quick reminder if youwant to check out all of our
library of audio and videoepisodes, you can go to
(34:02):
mindfullymasculinecom.
As well as any information wedecide is worth sharing.
Thanks,
Welcome back to the Mindfully Masculine Podcast.
This is Charles.
In this episode, dan and I willcontinue our discussion of the
Man's Guide to Women by theGottmans and we will get into
shopping dynamics, perspectivesand opinions on shopping
typically held by men and womenand how they differ, navigating
those differences, how shoppingpractices and goals and
(00:21):
expectations can affectrelationship, health,
communication strategies, somesocietal and cultural
observations, understanding andsupporting the women in our
lives and mitigating potentialconflicts, as well as some other
topics.
Please check out our website,mindfullymasculinecom.
We post our audio episodes, ourvideo episodes and any other
(00:41):
information we find worthy toshare and enjoy.
Dan (00:45):
Hey, Charles, good morning.
Charles (00:47):
Hey, dan, welcome back.
I was going to change the colorof our lights, which will make
it easier for me to tell whichepisode is which, and I forgot
to do that, so I'm going to doit right now, before our very
eyes.
Ooh love it.
See, I love that green.
Let me make it a little bitmore blue.
We've got these fancy lightsthat are remote controlled by an
app a little too much.
(01:07):
Okay, I like it there.
So, yeah, there we are.
We just finished our ourepisode a little bit about the
conflict resolution, things likethat which is in this section
of how to live with a woman, andbig function of living with a
woman is procuring the resourcesyou need to have a life and a
(01:28):
home together, and that'susually done through the process
of shopping, and so we're goingto talk a little bit about how
to shop like a girl.
Look, I'll be honest, this hasnever been much of a problem for
me.
I don't mind going shopping,and I think part of that was
growing up in the rural area ofFlorida that I did in the
(01:51):
mid-80s.
Going to the shopping mall waslike everything.
That's where you went tosocialize, that's where you went
to have fun, that's where youwent to go to the movies.
I don't think it was just here.
Dan (02:03):
I think it was back then no-transcript.
Charles (02:28):
So then eventually many of us got jobs at the mall and
it was the center of our socialexperience, based on the ages.
You're 50, I'm 47.
So I still enjoy going to themall, like when when I'm on a
kick to get my steps in and theweather's not perfect in in my
estimation meaning it's too hotin florida or too rainy that I'm
(02:51):
spending my time walking arounda shopping mall getting my
steps in that way, and so goingshopping for clothes or home
goods or whatever with the womanin my life it's always been
something I've enjoyed.
So when I watch all the tropethe sitcom tropes about how much
guys hate shopping, I'm justnot one of those guys, so I
don't completely identify withit.
Dan (03:11):
Yeah, my mom used to take me shopping with her when I was
younger, and I didn't reallyenjoy it at the time because I
didn't have any resources to buyanything myself.
Right, it seemed like it was alot more torturous back then,
when I was a kid, because a lotof it was spent with my mom
looking at shoes or dresses orwhatever, and there really
wasn't anything for me to dothere other than sometimes sit
(03:34):
under the clothes rack or try tohide from her or whatever but
or sit there.
So now, when I go and I havesome resources to buy my own
thing or and there's a lot morethings that I'm interested in to
look at it's not nearly as badas when I was a kid.
So that's where my base levelis.
So I really don't mind going.
And if I know, though, againsetting the intention ahead of
(03:57):
time, that we're not going infor a targeted a purchase and
then leaving, we've, we're justgoing.
Okay, we're going to go andspend a few hours at the mall
looking at for stuff.
We'll see what's there.
If I, if that's beencommunicated ahead of time, then
I'm.
It's a lot more tolerable forme and almost enjoyable.
Charles (04:13):
Yeah, yeah, the.
The only thing that makes itunenjoyable for me is usually
the crowds at the mall.
Um, so I tend to.
I had to go to the Florida mallto pick up.
I had something oh, it was anew shirt that I bought sent to
the Macy's at the Florida mall,because oftentimes when you buy
online for store pickup, it'sthe bigger stores that already
(04:35):
have it physically in thebuilding, so you can get it that
day or the next day instead ofhaving to wait five to seven
business days for it to getdelivered to the store close to
your house.
And so, since I travel TampaOrlando so much, I'll look and
see okay, where could I, wherecould I have this waiting for me
the next time I pass by thatstore?
And in the case of the OrlandoTampa area, it's either the
(04:57):
international mall in Tampa,which is the fancy one, or it's
the mall millennium Orlando orthe Florida mall.
So, as a result, I find myselfin those malls most often, and
around the holidays those arethe ones.
Florida mall is probably theworst.
Malt Millenia can get crowded,but not insane.
Where Florida mall, it's boththe biggest mall in Orlando and
(05:19):
it's the most touristy mall inOrlando, so you get a lot of
people from other states, othercountries, that are just walking
around looking at stuff and so,yeah, making your way around
that mall in any kind of andagain, it's a targeted mission,
I've got one thing at the mall,at the one store that's waiting
for me.
I've been there enough to knowif you're picking up something
from Macy's, you don't park atMacy's, you park outside of
(05:40):
Dick's Sporting Goods and thenyou walk over to Macy's.
You park outside of Dick'sSporting Goods and then you walk
over to Macy's because you canget great parking outside of
Dick's but you can't get goodparking outside of Macy's.
And yeah, it's like I've got awhole agenda and a whole mission
to get in and get out, becauseI know that the crowds are going
to be miserable.
Where in the middle of summer,where it's not so crowded, I'll
think, oh, okay, and then I'llgo to Macy's, but yeah, the
holiday crowds that mall areridiculous.
(06:01):
That can be frustrating to me.
So that would probably be asituation where if my partner
was like, hey, let's go kill acouple hours looking for stuff
at the mall, my thing would belike okay, which mall are we
(06:22):
going to?
What time of day are we goingto?
What can we do to minimize thefactors that would make this as
unpleasant on me as possible,while still giving you what
you're looking for in theexperience?
Because one of the things thatwe'll get to later is the idea
of if you hate this, don't do it, because if you hate it, you're
(06:42):
going to be not fun to bearound while you're doing it,
and that I apply that rule to alot of things that I hate, where
it's like, if you want me to goto a concert of your favorite
artists and I'm not into livemusic and I'm not into their
music, then the conflict thatarises from me saying no is
(07:02):
preferable to the conflict thatarises from me saying yes and
being a miserable prick thewhole time I'm there.
Dan (07:08):
One of the things that you could consider is trying to find
things that you can only do atthat mall.
So maybe it's eating some junkfood that you don't normally eat
.
You're going to treat yourselfto a pretzel or some Chinese
food, or whatever it is thathelp.
Charles (07:22):
All right, let's find what's a little treat, or the
mall does have a Shake Shack anda Cheesecake restaurant that
are both pretty high end.
Dan (07:27):
Incorporate that with the day.
Or go in and stop at the Applestore and take a look at some of
the latest technology there, orfind yourself if she's going to
look at shoes, look at whatother stores are there and see
(07:48):
no-transcript.
I love doing that.
Charles (07:51):
Yes, absolutely.
Dan (07:52):
Yeah, just find ways to break it up where it's not just
you waiting around for her to goshopping and pick something out
.
Charles (07:59):
Yeah, and I'll repeat a couple of the notes that we hit
during I think it was atomicattraction, where, when I go to
the mall to look for clothes formyself, most of the other
shoppers that I encounter in themen's department are women who
are buying clothes for the menin their life oh interesting.
(08:19):
I recommend against being a manwho has his clothes shopping
done for him, because that putsyou in the category of someone
whose responsibility it is it'syour wife's responsibility to
dress them.
Dan (08:38):
I feel like we call those people children.
I was about to say.
Charles (08:41):
I feel like you're putting yourself in that
category of yes, of beingoffspring that she's responsible
for taking care of, becausethey can't do it on the on their
own.
Dan (08:50):
And.
Charles (08:50):
And I would say Nothing builds attraction like being
one of her children, correct orthought of as one of her
children, not want to be thoughtof as a child or a dependent on
your wife.
So I would say one of thethings you can do on these
shopping excursions that you maynot be super excited about is
build your skill as a shopperfor menswear.
(09:10):
And even if that's just lookingaround and deciding I like that
, I hate that, oh I could wearthat, I would never wear that.
Just going walking around anddoing aware of what's out there,
doing some of that evaluation,connoissance mission Exactly
what is my style, what kind ofstuff am I into?
What kind of stuff am I notinto?
If you're like me, it's veryhard to.
I'm hard to buy gifts forbecause I just I see things I
(09:34):
want and I just buy them.
But yeah, once you put in alittle bit of work to cultivate
a personal style what shirts,what accessories, what belts,
what kind of stuff are you intowearing Then when it's time for
your birthday or Christmas, youcan give people clues like oh
yeah, I saw something that Iliked the other day and it was
this.
Or yeah, just, I certainly dosay take the time to care enough
(09:58):
about your style that you wantto shop for your own clothes.
And again, if your wife isbuying, or your girlfriend's
buying, bed sheets or curtainsor something that you find, it's
one thing.
If you're going lingerieshopping with your girlfriend,
it's pretty easy to stayinvolved in that, but if it's we
need a new mixer or we need anew air fryer and you don't have
a lot of interest in that, thenyeah, go spend your time in a
(10:22):
decent men's department and andtake some just mental notes even
of what your style is, whatyou're into, what you like.
Maybe, if you see somethingthat's a good deal, go ahead and
buy it for yourself, and thatwill make these trips.
It'll make you more attractiveto your partner because you'll
be cultivating a sense of styleand women like that, and you'll
(10:43):
also have a way to spend thetime that you don't find
torturous.
So that's one thing I wouldsuggest to do.
So where does this come from?
We always talk about Most ofour history was as
hunter-gatherers.
Specifically, the men were thehunters and the women were the
gatherers.
Dan (10:59):
Now it's funny because it makes total sense when he
explained that right and I'veheard that for years and years
but never have.
Charles (11:08):
I ever Good point the gatherings and shopping.
Dan (11:11):
Or women with the gathering and men with the hunting.
But, yes, that makes totalsense, but I never thought it,
just I never.
I never thought about it thatway.
And then it starts to lead youdown the path that he takes us
on the book, and it's insightful.
Charles (11:25):
Yeah, absolutely, and yeah, it feels functional and it
feels like important work for awoman to go out and find the
appropriate resources that sheneeds or that the family needs.
Dan (11:35):
Right, it's important for the men too, because she's
providing some additionalsustenance for you.
Also, medicine that part ofthat gathering was not just food
.
It was, you know, medicine, itwas things, branches, yeah,
whatever's needed to keep peoplealive.
Charles (11:51):
Yeah, and so that's where her clothes or the houses,
the new curtains for the livingroom, it all.
Still it scratches that itchthat women have in going out and
finding the right thing for thejob and bringing it back to the
cave and so providing yeah,exactly, and so just shutting
that down and deciding I don'tlike it, so you're not doing it,
or you, I don't like it, so I'mnot going to go with you when
you do it.
If you yeah.
(12:12):
If you can't figure out a wayto make it at least bearable, if
not pleasant, if not enjoyable,then yeah, it's better if you
just leave her to it.
But there is an opportunitycost there.
When you say, hey, I realizethis is important to you, this
is something you're into.
I'm not going because I can'tfigure out a way to not hate it,
then yeah, you're going to.
You're going to take yourselfdown a peg as a partner.
Dan (12:34):
Unless you spend the time to find other ways to connect
with her.
Charles (12:37):
Correct.
Dan (12:38):
Yeah, it's a low.
I think it's like a lowinvestment of time and energy to
just go shopping with yourwoman and have that sense of
connection, and I think, yeah,you're missing out on an
opportunity to really solidifythe relationship.
So then we do have conflicts,which is what we talked about in
the last podcast.
Yes, yeah, that's something weget a lot, it's a lot easier for
(13:01):
that woman or for you also, tocalm down and realize that hey
look, there's a lot of reasonswhy we should be de-escalating
our emotions, because there's somuch good here.
And if you're doing thingsregularly where you're
connecting on that level itdoing things regularly where
you're connecting on that levelit's a lot easier to remember
when things are stressed.
Charles (13:17):
Yeah, and I think we could have hit that a little
heavier on the last episodes.
I'm glad you brought that up.
That, yeah, if you are investedin each other's lives and your
good friends, your goodcompanions, you have a lot of
positive time together whenyou're not either in an argument
or in bed.
Then, yeah, it makes it a loteasier, when a conflict does
(13:40):
come up, to remember, hey, whyis it worth working through this
problem, instead of just losingyour stack and saying screw it,
screw this relationship, screwthis partnership.
I'm done, sure, and yeah, Ithink, um, what's the rule about
it Taking five positiveinteractions to offset every one
negative interaction, orsomething like that?
Dan (14:01):
So it might even be more?
Charles (14:02):
Yeah, it might be, and uh, we'll, we'll try to get the
details.
I don't know if that was fromthis book.
I don't think it was.
I think it was from somethingelse that we read that, uh, yeah
, every negative interactionsare unfairly weighted compared
to positive interactions, and soit's important that you offset
those negative experiences thatwill come and that you will have
(14:22):
to deal with lots of positiveexperiences.
And yeah, I don't remember itmight have been compliments
versus negative words orsomething like that, but there's
a ratio there that reinforcesthe idea that you need lots of
positive interactions to offsetthe negative ones.
That will eventually happen.
Dan (14:39):
Again, it comes back to how we're wired and our brains are
wired for danger, pleasure anddanger Danger.
So when we get negativefeedback, it's going to be a lot
more powerful because we'regoing to feel that a lot more
and whenever we feel things more, we remember them more easily,
and that's unfortunate when it'sthe negative stuff.
Charles (14:55):
Yeah, easily, and that's unfortunate when it's the
negative stuff, yeah.
Another thing to keep in mindthat shopping for women is an
expression of creativity and itcan be a positive social
experience for them as well,which might mean they're more
into talking to other customersand shopkeepers and salespeople
than you are.
I am not by any means intotalking to people when I am
(15:16):
shopping at all.
I would rather be left aloneand leave other people alone.
I opt into self-checkouts.
Every single experience, everyopportunity I have to use a
self-checkout, I'm going to usea self-checkout.
Yeah, yeah.
I like to minimize my humaninteractions when I'm out to
find something that I'm specific, that I'm looking for, with
some exception.
Dan (15:35):
Let me then ask you do you feel like you are limiting your
yourself by doing that easylittle thing, just by by going
to a checkout and having to havea two, two second conversation
with somebody who's workingthere?
Do you feel like that's, thatis, that that could be an
opportunity for growth for you?
No, all right.
(15:56):
Next topic All right, all right, we'll move on.
Charles (15:58):
I don't.
I could be wrong.
Listen, there's a chance thatI'm wrong about this, but I do
not feel like I'm missing out.
So, yeah, there are somedifferences where I'll say it
like this If I'm in a situationwhere I can have a conversation
with someone who knows theirproduct better than I do, then I
look forward to those.
Okay, so if I go into the AllenEdmonds shoe store and I have a
(16:22):
conversation with one of thesales guys working there, I seek
out conversations like thatbecause I know a lot about their
shoes and they know even morethan I do and I I get excited
about that.
Dan (16:31):
Yeah.
Charles (16:32):
Whereas if I'm popping into Macy's and I'm buying a new
pair of Levi's or new poloshirt or something like that, I
probably know more about theproduct I'm interested in than
you do and I also know moreabout the colors that work for
me, the colors I look good in,the colors I like wearing.
There's really not somebodythat what I would consider a mid
(16:53):
to low tier salesperson isgoing to be able to bring me.
Dan (16:57):
Okay.
Charles (16:58):
And then so am I.
So then, otherwise, am I justlooking to have random
conversations with random people?
Not really.
Dan (17:05):
For me.
I I'm not looking for aconversation necessarily out of
somebody who's working thecheckout line, cause most of the
time I actually do go to thecheckout lines not for any
reason other than.
Charles (17:18):
You've been at Target and Publix and stuff.
Dan (17:20):
Yeah, Really yeah, as long as three years older than me.
Yeah, as long as the line isn'tmore than two or three people
back.
I don't, I just naturally do it.
I don't really consciouslythink about it, but I realize
that I do enjoy it becauseusually there's a little bit of
a hey, how's it going?
You get a smile, Maybe theygive you a compliment on
(17:42):
something that you're wearing,or the or oh, I wanted to try
this food too.
Is it really good?
And it's just a little bit ofmakes me feel good because I
feel like it was a positiveexperience and 95% of the time
it is.
There's 5% where they're nothaving a good day and they're
not giving me any positiveenergy out of that, but more
(18:06):
often than not it's just, it's alittle pick me up and I usually
feel a little bit better likewalking out of there.
Just even if it's just a hey,how's it going?
And I get a smile kind of thing.
Interesting, that's funny and Ididn't have to earn it at all.
It's just a hey, how's it going, and I get a smile kind of
thing.
That's funny.
And I didn't have to earn it atall.
It's just that they're just.
Charles (18:19):
that's part of the process, that when they're
checking me out, On the otherway, where I would stand in line
to use a machine rather thanjust walk to a cashier's line
that's completely empty,potentially get me out of there
even faster and probably bag mygroceries in a more interesting,
more trained way.
But yeah, maybe that's just afunction of my introversion, I
don't know.
Women make about 85% of thebuying decisions for the
(18:44):
household.
I would be uncomfortable withthat number as somebody running
a household or not running ahousehold, being a participating
member of a household.
If there was that much of adisparity, that would bother me
a little.
How would you feel if you wereto live with someone again?
How would you feel about hermaking 85% of the purchasing
decisions?
No, you wouldn't be down forthat, nor would I.
Dan (19:03):
Okay, are we talking dollar-wise or volume-wise,
right?
So that's the thing, right, I'mgoing to say dollar-wise
groceries and like little thingslike that or whatever, not a
problem if it's just pure amountof stuff.
But if it's an actual dollarvalue where we're both
contributing quite a bit to ourfinancial situation and I for
(19:27):
high ticket items, just like Iwouldn't expect her to be okay
with me making most of thedecisions about really expensive
, if we're sharing money or ifthe decision that I'm making is
going to affect her and herfinancial situation, like buying
a new air conditioner or a newwasher dryer.
Exactly those are, I think,conversations that need to be
(19:48):
had, yeah, decisions that needto be made.
Charles (19:49):
Yeah, I would usually be more like, hey, I've got some
opinions, I'm going to takepoint on this no-transcript to
go out and see what I like.
Yeah, let's talk more aboutwomen in shopping.
Shopping, yeah, will oftenrequire a good memory as far as
(20:13):
comparing.
Oh, I saw this thing I liked atthis store.
I saw this thing at this store.
This one was this much, thisone was this much.
They had my size here, theydidn't have my size here.
There's a lot of work that goesinto that.
That women's memory tends to bemore optimized for than ours is
.
Dan (20:26):
Yeah, he cited a study where it showed that when the
women have better memory thanmen and that was basically
proven or supported by the, whenthey had the people come into a
room and basically they'd havethem sit there for I don't know
like 20 minutes before they'dmove them into a different room
and they'd ask them.
(20:46):
And it was.
I think it was a room full of,like hoarding, so it was,
somebody had hoarded a bunch ofstuff and the men would go into
the other room and how manyobjects did you remember out of
that other room?
On average, it was seven.
For women it was 20, wow, andthey were just sitting there for
20 minutes or so.
Yeah, and that was.
That was a pretty, prettyshocking difference.
(21:08):
Yeah, and it makes sensebecause they needed, when they
were gathering, they needed toknow, okay, what markings on
what plants indicated that theywere gathering.
They needed to know, okay, whatmarkings on what plants
indicated that they were edibleor poisonous, or what was
medicine, what was not justknowing where to go for things.
And remember, hey, this plantgrew over in this area and these
berries were over there, and soa lot of that is again just, I
(21:30):
think, built into the ancestorsof the women that you know alive
back then, right yeah.
Charles (21:35):
And the ones that lasted long enough to to
reproducing and keep their kidssafe enough to reproduce?
Yeah, okay, we did mention that.
As a man, you can be verymission focused when it comes to
shopping, where you just go in,get the thing you're looking
for and leave Again.
I spend some of my time thatway and I spend some of my time
just kind of lollygagging aboutthe mall, looking at things and
(21:55):
getting steps in and justspending time in that
environment.
But women definitely associateshopping with more social
connection and emotionalconnection than men typically do
Not always, but typically.
Research shows that the degreeto which a woman is clothes
conscious is a long-termpredictor of marital success.
(22:18):
We both had relationships thatfailed or ended, for whatever
reason.
It has certainly been myexperience that how much my
partner partner cared about her,her style, her appearance, what
she was wearing, how she lookedas the relationship got closer
(22:39):
and closer to ending, the amountof care that she put into those
things certainly decreased.
Have you found that to be thecase in your history as well?
Not?
Dan (22:48):
always Okay, but, yes, there have been times where the
person I was dating just tookless and less care of you.
Know how she presented herselfand, to be honest, I was guilty
of that as well, oh yeah, whereit was either a lot of weight
gain or it was just On your part.
Charles (23:07):
On my part.
Yes, yeah On my part, or.
Dan (23:10):
Yeah, also probably holding on to clothes that Should have
been retired, probably.
Yeah, yeah and just yeah, not,not focusing on being my best
self for myself or my partner.
Charles (23:22):
Yeah, so I guess, that being the case, the fact that
actual scientific research showsthat the more more closed
conscious she is, the morelikely she, the marriage or the
relationship, is going to last,that would probably be a good
reason to do things thatencourage her interest in
shopping to remain strong.
(23:44):
Yeah, yeah, I would say so.
If you had to tamp down thatinterest in procuring clothing
and shoes and things that makeher feel like she is stylish,
then she is going to care.
You're basically incentivizingher to not care about how she
looks if you're making shoppinga difficult process for her.
Dan (24:07):
Yeah, and that also supports previous chapters in
the book where he talks aboutsupporting and loving your
partner in terms of giving themlittle compliments about the way
they look here and thererandomly, authentically, and
just loving the way she looksand how she is now and enjoying
and making her feel like she'sbeautiful and she's attractive
(24:28):
and she's attractive to you, andall those things will build
positive reinforcement.
And I think a lot of that alsogoes by the wayside because
people they fall into one ofthese, the four horsemen of the
apocalypse of the ending of arelationship, and they end up
not expressing those things andthey did at the beginning of the
relationship or before theywere married, and now it's gone,
and so I think again, a lot ofthese things are just end up
(24:51):
becoming spiraling viciouscycles that really are difficult
because a lot of times we'renot even aware that it's
happening and that what onething does is contributing to
the other and it's going in thewrong direction, until sometimes
it's too late, sometimes youdon't even realize until you go
to a therapist and at that pointyou're just you guys have
checked, both checked out atthat point and you may be able
(25:13):
to check in, or you may.
Charles (25:15):
there may be no checking back point.
The one thing I thought he wasthe end of the list of the sort
of cheat sheet for heroes hereis don't complain if she spends
a lot of time shopping for shoes, specifically high heels, and
there's a little section in here.
I didn't.
I was not familiar with theterm lordosis before I read this
book Me either which is thecourting posture of mammals
where a female mammal will havean arched back, thrust out,
(25:39):
buttocks and I think also hipsthat are forward, yep, and that
is, in the animal kingdom, asymbol of sexual readiness.
So that's why, as a species,we're all into high heels.
I thought that was interestingand, yeah, we like the way a
woman's body looks when it'sbeing supported by high heels.
And yeah, I would say, don'tpoo the idea of her wanting to
(26:04):
spend time and some money onsome shoes, having nice shoes to
wear, and yeah, you'll usuallyenjoy that.
I will say that there is anotherpart of this book where he
offers some strategies on makingthe trip to the mall or the
store easier.
Bring a book, bring your iPod.
I guess those were a thing whenhe wrote this Catch up on email
(26:25):
, find an arcade, find ways toentertain yourself if you can't
stand looking at the clotheswith her.
Yeah, he also uses the, theword, the phrase man up again,
which again I feel like if wecould get rid of the phrase man
up in in most situations, Ithink we would probably be
better off as a species.
Yeah, that's a criticism thatI've definitely expressed before
(26:49):
in this book and it's funnybecause I feel like gotman knows
better.
Yeah, and well, he definitelydoes.
Yeah, and so it's a shortcutfor just do it, get over it.
But it really seems like youknow not helpful.
I'm not going to say this toanybody in my practice.
I'm not going to tolerateanybody saying this to me, but I
want to sell this book to somedumb guys too, so I'm going to
(27:10):
go ahead and throw it in there,because maybe it'll resonate
with them which feelscondescending to me, and it
probably is in some respect.
Dan (27:18):
but if it sells more books and it gets it and it helps the
medicine go down in some respect, right, Then that's the listen,
that's his style.
When you write your book, youdon't need to do that.
Charles (27:28):
Correct, you're right.
You're right.
I think there's still more goodthings than bad, some of the
things that you should not do.
You should not neglect tounderstand a woman's
relationship to shopping.
You should not judge orcriticize her for shopping.
You should not expect her toshop the way that you shop when
you're on your own and you wantto just pop in, grab the thing
you want and leave.
Don't criticize her purchasesor her appearance, and that's
(27:51):
the other thing.
When it comes to criticizingthe outfits, the style, the way
she looks, the time to havefeedback or input on these
decisions is when she's shopping.
So when she's in the dressingroom trying something on and
walking it out to show it to youfor your opinion, then you
could have an opinion on howthat specific outfit looks Once
(28:13):
she's already decided shespecific outfit looks.
Once she's already decided shelikes it.
Dan (28:16):
Once she's bought it, when she's brought it home, once it's
sat in the closet for sixmonths and then she wears it for
the first dinner out, that'snot the time to say you don't
like it yeah, I think, guys, weneed to look at this also and
realize that this comes from ourhistory, where we were
providing in the form of huntingand they were providing in the
(28:37):
form of gathering, and so thisis really tied to self-worth and
self-esteem.
Even though if she's buyingdresses and purses for herself,
it is still like a reflectionand I feel tied a little bit
more closely to the value thatshe has of herself.
And so, if you're going tocriticize some of the decisions
that she's making, be careful towalk, tread lightly when you're
(28:58):
doing that, and maybe even justsuck it up and man up and not
say anything if you don't likesome of these purchases, because
then I think it's a real easyit's not a far leap for the
woman then to feel like she'snot providing for the family or
there's something wrong with theway.
So let's turn it around.
What if she was criticizingabout the way you do your job
(29:20):
right, or the money that you'rebringing home or not bringing
home, or the decisions you'remaking at work right, or in the
way that you are providing forthe family, whatever that looks
like, and turn that around.
How would you feel?
Probably not great Right,especially if it was like she
wasn't there and you're makingthese decisions.
It's same thing if she'sshopping and you weren't there
(29:43):
and then she comes home and thenyou make you make these
criticisms.
I think we need to be carefuland just realize there's
probably a lot more personalattachment to some of the
shopping habits than we realize,yeah, and a lot of that stuff
is hard-coded and we can't talkpeople out of it.
Charles (29:59):
We can't.
Logically, you can't talk itout and again a lot of this
hunting-gathering model that wehave today and in most cases,
let's be honest, she's probablydoing the hunting and the
gathering and you're just doingthe hunting.
From a financial aspect, mostwomen also have a job and most
women are doing 85% of thepurchasing decisions.
So really we've changed to amodel where they're doing the
(30:23):
hunting and the gathering andwe're doing just the hunting,
and our second job iscriticizing their gathering.
Yeah, that's doesn't feel likea risk for long-term success.
Dan (30:33):
No, there's a reason probably why this divorce rate
is so high is and people don'tstay together as much.
Yeah, it's probably.
Yeah, I think that's anaccurate statement.
Charles (30:42):
Yeah, so keep that in mind.
Definitely, don't find yourselfin a position where you hate
shopping but you're going alonganyway and making both of you
miserable.
That's not.
That shouldn't be seen as anoption.
Dan (30:52):
Um, that shouldn't be in any activity, even shop, and
regardless of shop and anythingin your life, if you're gonna go
somewhere and you're about tolearn how to enjoy it and right.
Charles (31:00):
Can't learn how to enjoy it, then don't do it don't
bring positive.
Dan (31:04):
It don't bring negative energy to any situation if you
can avoid it yeah, don't assumethat all women love to shop.
Charles (31:10):
Every woman is different.
There's a good chance that sheloves to shop and, if she does,
try to encourage that and makeit as pleasant for her as you
can.
But also you might not be witha woman who loves to shop and
you might be a guy that loves toshop, so you might be making
trips to the mall by yourself,and if so, then do that and have
a good time and enjoy it asbest you can and just realize
(31:31):
that you're in a somewhatatypical, but not crazy weird
situation.
Dan (31:36):
Yeah, I think the point of this chapter is to realize
there's deep ingraineddifferences in the way that we
go about shopping in terms ofmen and women.
I thought that was reallyimportant and I think just being
aware of that has reduced atleast my own levels of
frustration.
It's not like this has been abig thing for me.
(31:58):
A big problem for me, like Isaid, is because I was going
shopping with my mom as a kidfor hours and hours at times, so
it's not been that big of adeal for me.
But just knowing that, beingaware of that, makes it a little
bit easier to properly prepareand support those types of
activities.
Charles (32:18):
Yeah, I did get some new insights from this chapter
as well, and the thing I likemaybe the thing I like the most
is the insight of if you hatesomething and you can't train
yourself to not be miserable atit, then just don't do it,
because it's a very codependent,nice guy thing to just go along
with something that you hateuntil eventually you build up
(32:40):
resentment and you blow your topover doing feeling like you're
being forced to do something youdon't want to do.
Dan (32:45):
It's okay.
You're discovering somethingabout yourself.
You're discovering what youlike and what you don't like and
that's a big thing, for a lotof nice guys is not really
knowing what you like or whatyou're feeling.
What you're feeling.
This is great information.
Charles (32:56):
And.
But like you said, though, ifyou're going to write off the
experience of going shoppingwith your partner, you got to
find some other things toconnect over and tell her that
you're making a conscious effort.
Hey, listen, I'm never going tobe the guy that likes going to
the mall and spending hours justwalking around brushing clothes
that are hanging up and feelingtheir texture.
I can't do this with you, butlet's figure out something, some
(33:19):
other things that we really dolike setting time aside to do
together, yeah, and connect in asimilar way, if we can.
Next chapter we're going to getinto friendship and
understanding women andfriendship, and at the very end
of chapter 12, we'll even coverwhat to do if she has guy
friends, and how you recognizepotential red flags about that,
(33:41):
or how, when there's no redflags, you can just learn to be
comfortable with that situation.
So that's what we'll talk aboutnext time.
Thanks very much, dan.
It sounds good.
See you later.
Bye-bye.
Thank you so much for stickingaround for the entire episode,
dan, and I certainly appreciateit again.
Just a quick reminder if youwant to check out all of our
library of audio and videoepisodes, you can go to
(34:02):
mindfullymasculinecom.
As well as any information wedecide is worth sharing.
Thanks,
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