January 20, 2025 • 41 mins
Welcome to another thought-provoking episode of Mindfully Masculine! In this episode, Charles and Dan dive into Chapter 12, Best Friends Forever, from The Man's Guide to Women by Dr. John Gottman and colleagues. This chapter explores the fascinating dynamics of friendships and their impact on relationships.
Key Discussion Points:
- Gender Differences in Friendships: Discover how men's and women's friendships differ and why these differences matter in romantic relationships.
- The Role of Social Connections: Learn how a woman’s friendships can positively influence her health and emotional well-being—and why this benefits her relationship with you.
- Marriage vs. Cohabitation: Insights into the studies on how marital and cohabitation dynamics affect longevity and health.
- Balancing Emotional Support: Tips for avoiding the extremes of emotional dependence or isolation in your relationship.
- Correlation vs. Causation: A nuanced discussion about healthy habits and whether marriage itself increases longevity.
- Encouraging Friendships: Why supporting your partner’s friendships is essential—and how to handle concerns about her male friends.
Notable Insights:
- A strong social network for both partners leads to better emotional regulation and a healthier relationship.
- Men often rely heavily on their romantic partner for social support, while women diversify their support system through friendships.
- Fostering mutual respect and open communication is key when navigating concerns about friendships.
Practical Takeaways:
- Encourage your partner’s friendships, especially if she feels unfulfilled in that area.
- Build your own social network to avoid overburdening your relationship.
- Use your partner’s feedback to improve your interactions with her social circle—strive to be someone they root for!
Resources Mentioned:
- The Man’s Guide to Women by Dr. John Gottman and colleagues
- Diary of a CEO podcast (episode on dopamine)
- Huberman Lab Podcast with Jordan Peterson (discussion on motivation)
For more episodes and updates, visit MindfullyMasculine.com. Don’t forget to like, subscribe, and share this episode if you found it valuable. Thanks for listening!
Tags: #MindfullyMasculine #Relationships #Friendships #EmotionalSupport #GenderDynamics #Marriage #PersonalGrowth
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Charles (00:00):
There are two extremes.
There's the extreme of I'm ahotshot alpha male, I don't have
any problems, nothing bothersme, I'm never going to complain
to my partner about anything,and the other side of that is I
am just going to be a machinethat vomits my troubles onto my
partner and feels better bysharing everything with her
that's ever bothered me or everdoes bother me.
Don't be either of those things.
(00:20):
Find a place somewhere in themiddle.
Welcome back to the MindfullyMasculine Podcast.
This is Charles.
In this episode, dan and I willcontinue discussing the Man's
Guide to Women by Dr JohnGottman and others.
We will talk about genderdifferences and friendships,
marriage and longevity,cohabitation versus marriage,
(00:42):
cultural and evolutionaryperspectives on social
connection, social networks andemotional regulation,
encouraging partner friendships,balancing emotional support in
relationships, correlationversus causation in healthy
habits, personal development andrelational health, and other
topics.
As always, I encourage you tocheck out our website for both
(01:04):
audio and video episodes, aswell as other news and resources
we decide are fit for sharing.
Dan (01:09):
Thanks for listening and enjoy to cover chapter 12, best
Friends Forever, which is alittle.
Charles (01:28):
I was surprised by the content of this chapter.
It's not really being aboutbeing your partner's best friend
as much as it's about thedynamics of friendship overall
and how it affects yourrelationship.
Dan (01:41):
And the difference also between men's friendships and
women's friendships, and Ithought that was very
interesting, the way he bringsin the need, relationship and
and the difference also betweenmen's friendships and women's
friendships.
And I thought that was veryinteresting, the way he brings
in the need for women and andwhy they need those friendships
more than men.
Charles (01:53):
Yeah, I was a little surprised about that and the
thing is he didn't really, orthey didn't, because, again, I
was playing all four of them.
I always give john gottmancredit for writing this book
because and I think it's tworeasons his name appears the
biggest, and also it's narratedby a man, and so as we listen to
it, I just, me too, do ashortcut in my head of oh, it's
(02:16):
john gottman saying these things, but there's two other women
and one other guy that wrotethis book with them, and I gotta
try to remember that.
Dan (02:24):
They're mentioned a lot less in the search throughout
the book as well.
Charles (02:27):
So I think there's something in this chapter or the
next chapter that I don'tremember when he talks.
I think it's the next chapterwhere he talks a lot about how
men in marriages live longer,and we'll get into that in
detail when we do the nextepisode of the podcast, but it
did strike me.
I had the thought, and maybeyou did too.
(02:53):
While I'm hearing him talkabout that repeatedly, I wonder
if the fact that he's an olderguy who's in a marriage, if he
felt the need to emphasize that,because what I hear pretty much
any study or anything thattalks about okay, if you're a
guy who does X, you'll livelonger than a guy who doesn't.
My response to that is I'm notin this to live as long as I can
(03:15):
.
I'm not in this to die early.
I'm not in this to get sickearly.
I'm not in this to have a lowquality of life early.
Dan (03:22):
I'm not saying I don't give any of those things a
consideration, but just havingthe highest possible number when
I finally croaked is way, waylow on my list of priorities a
lifetime of indiscriminate andun or insecure relationships,
being able to sleep with whoeveryou want as many times as you
(03:52):
want, and you're trading thatoff for a marriage commitment
where it says a lifetime ofhappiness and joy, and I think
part it's a side benefit ofbeing able to live longer.
But I think they're reallytrying to focus on hey, by being
in a marriage, you really havethe ability to have a lifetime
(04:14):
of happiness rather than notnecessarily being as happy if
you are single and constantlydating and changing
relationships single andconstantly dating and changing
relationships?
Charles (04:28):
yes, and I definitely.
Yeah.
I'm not saying that I amagainst monogamy or marriage or
long-term partnerships oranything like that.
I'm just saying that I don'tsee it as big as of a selling
point, as I think he's trying tomake it that you live longer
because of it, and part of thereason he he says that you live
longer because of it, and partof the reason he says that you
live longer because of it, issingle men are more likely to
engage in all-around riskybehaviors, including drinking,
(04:52):
drinking and driving, usingdrugs, and none of those things
are part of my life anyway in amonogamous relationship.
Now, there's no harmful orunhealthy things I would be
doing if I wasn't, if I wassingle right now.
There's no things I feel likeI'm missing out on or things
(05:13):
that I stopped once I got into arelationship, so I just.
It does make me wonder, though,as an older guy in a long-term
relationship, is he a little bitmore bullish on the you'll live
longer if you're married thanhe would be otherwise, and I
think it's an old way.
I think most old people areinto the idea of living longer
(05:35):
because death is closer for them.
As far as our actuarial tablesare concerned, correct.
But when he talks about you'lllive for an average of I think
it's eight years, yeah, that'swhat he said for me, man, the
difference between 81 and 89 andmaybe it's because I'm 40 years
away from that range it meanslittle to nothing to me.
(05:58):
If I, and if I had the choiceof you, can die in your sleep in
relatively good shape at 81 orspend the last eight years of
your life in a nursing home, sayat 89, then that's a no-brainer
for me.
Dan (06:11):
Yeah, you really need to look at the quality of life
those last eight years.
If you can preserve the samequality of life that you've had
and it just lasts eight yearslonger, hey, I see the value in
that.
But if it's going to be ashitty eight years longer, hey,
I see the value in that.
But if it's going to be ashitty eight years for us to a
year's struggle, then you'reyou're not really selling it and
(06:31):
I don't, and I don't feel likeyour.
Charles (06:35):
I guess maybe your relationship status could have
an impact on.
If you have a partner who'stelling you, hey, go to your
doctor for your annual checkup,and that's the kind of thing you
wouldn't do otherwise, then,yes, I could see how that would
have that kind of effect on itand I think when they were they
also mentioned a study done byPepper Schwartz, who actually is
on the is one of thepsychologists or psychiatrists
(06:59):
on the Married at First Sightshow for a full year.
Dan (07:02):
So, when they said Pepper Schwartz, I'm like, oh, dr
Pepper, okay From, married upfor a sight show, for a full
interest is.
So when they said pepperschwartz, I'm gonna go dr pepper
, okay from.
So dr, that's how she goes.
Like she goes by dr fevers whodoes yeah, it's very what a yeah
, great marketing it looks likedr ruth jesus, that's a blonde
older lady.
Yeah, anyway, so they theymentioned.
She did a really large study,was like 12 000 married couples,
if you remember that or notmarried couples.
(07:22):
It was married and unmarriedpeople that tried to say, trying
to figure out what thedifference was with people
cohabitating versus people whowere married.
That was, yeah, there were somesurprising things in that
section, didn't I think that'swhere is that where the data
(07:44):
came from, the eight years?
Charles (07:47):
Or they were like less committed because yeah, the
assumption was that if youcohabitate with someone for a
long time You're as committed,they'll start acting like a
married couple.
Dan (07:55):
That's what it was.
Charles (07:56):
Yes, yeah, they were like no.
You wrote the data says you.
You act less like a marriedcouple If you cohabitate for a
long period of time.
Dan (08:03):
Right now, act less like a married couple if you cohabitate
for a long period of time RightNow.
And then the quick-, oh, sevenyears is when it becomes a
common law marriage.
That's right, but there was areal quick sentence in there
where he said now that datacould have been a little bit.
There's a variable in therewhere they said that people who
typically cohabitate but don'tmarry already engage in
(08:24):
unhealthy habits oh, that'sright, they took it back to.
Charles (08:28):
Based on your education and your high school experience
, people who cohabitate are morelikely to be less educated and
drink more, use drugs, morethings like that you.
So, then that's interesting.
So the more educated you are,the more likely you are to get
married.
I guess that's interesting.
So the more educated you are,the more likely you are to get
married, I guess.
Dan (08:47):
I guess Right and commit in that way.
So then you're leading ahealthier lifestyle already,
right?
Then you have to.
Charles (08:53):
So then it has that correlation versus causing, like
you said like you already do,the healthy thing?
Dan (09:00):
Exactly so.
Just because you get marrieddoes not mean you're going to
get an extra eight years.
Correct yes thing?
Exactly so just because you getmarried does not mean you're
going to get an extra eightyears.
Charles (09:06):
Correct, yes, in your case.
Yeah, that's interesting, soyou?
Dan (09:08):
get those eight years regardless.
Charles (09:10):
Right yeah, if you're making healthy decisions with
the way you live.
Dan (09:14):
So that kind of fits his whole argument oh, you get
married and you're going to be.
Charles (09:18):
Listen, You're going to it.
The bigger the study is, boththe more likely it is to be
accurate, but also the lesslikely it is to zero in on an
individual.
And looking at it this way, isyou're less likely to have
(09:40):
somebody who wants to marry youif you've got drug problems,
alcohol problems?
No, you find people to marrythem fairly easily, but they
have the same problem.
So that's the thing you attract, what you are right and I don't
.
Dan (09:48):
I I guess those people are not going to get that eight
years.
They're not going to be part ofthe majority I think I'll marry
their problem.
That's not going to fix allthose other problems and dollars
donuts are most likely gettingdivorced and maybe remarried,
and divorced, remarried versusjust staying with one person the
whole time.
Charles (10:06):
Yeah, so the question is, yeah, does getting married
make you more likely to livelonger, or is being married just
another indicator that you makethe kind of decisions that lead
you to live longer?
I would say that's probably theI was great.
But yeah, trying to separatecausation from correlation in
studies is extremely difficult,especially the ones where it's,
(10:27):
if you do this and the big onethat would come up on rogan all
the time is sitting in a saunafor 20 minutes a day and how it
lowers all caused morbidity by67 percent or some holy cow
something ridiculous number.
But then you have to say, okay,people who have a daily sauna
practice, what else are theydoing?
And the answer, the thingthat's keeping them alive, is
(10:48):
the.
What else are they doing, notthe fact that they go sit in a
sauna 20 minutes.
Well, certainly they're payingattention to what they eat.
They're paying attention to howoften they move their body.
Dan (10:56):
They're doing a whole lot taking their vitamins and their
supplements and even the evensitting in the sauna is a form
of relaxation, and so it's justlike a lot of that is like a
daily.
Charles (11:05):
What other self-care rituals do they have besides
just going to the sauna?
Yeah, so it's very yeah, it'seasy.
If you're in the, if you're inthe building and selling saunas
business, it's very easy topoint to that and say do you
want to live longer?
Dan (11:18):
Then buy our sauna, speaking of which, I was in
Sam's Club the other day.
They, the other day they've gotthese like 300 stand-up saunas
now where you can including thered light therapy, whatever you
can buy and throw it in the roomthat you want any type of.
Oh, there was yeah it was yeah,my, my girlfriend had dragged
me away.
Geez, I knew you'd link that.
Charles (11:35):
I was like yeah, I do the one that I'm dealing with
right now the walking pad andthe standing desk.
You know that I've got a lotmore room in my new camper than
I had in my old one.
I've got a lot more temptationto just getting the smallest
possible standing desk that Icould just put my MacBook on and
just stand while I'm answeringemails, while I'm watching TV
(11:57):
shows, while I'm doing whatever.
So let's jump into a little bitof the text, some of the other
principles that he shares.
Women are more sociallyconnected than men.
I think that's certainly truein modern society.
I'm not convinced that is abiological fact, though, because
I think they're connected indifferent ways.
(12:18):
Where you know, while the womenwere at home doing the
gathering and raising of thechildren, the guys were
typically out together doing thehunt.
I would argue both of those areequally as socially connecting
activities.
We don't really have that levelof connection as men anymore,
(12:39):
because going out to kill thebeast, as it were, is not an
exclusively male activity, likeit was up until 70 years ago,
when it was pretty much men inthe workforce exclusively, or
there were certainly some jobsthat women had, but it wasn't a
lot of men and women workingtogether.
(13:00):
There is now, I think, the.
I think men probably got moreof that male social connection
when you went to an office andit was only other dudes and this
is even before the women weresecretaries and stuff like that,
back when it was just dudes ina factory surrounded by other
dudes.
(13:21):
That probably mapped a littlebit closer to the going out for
the hunting than what we havetoday.
And I think now men are lesssocially connected because it
takes more effort and we stillfind that in some ways you and I
(13:42):
go and hang out with ourfriends.
We'll go out occasionally, butnot to the degree that most
women seem to have or to thedegree that men used to have not
too long ago on an evolutionarytime scale so I'm wondering if
this, the nature of the work, iswhat makes a difference in
terms of that social connectionfrom history.
Dan (14:02):
So if we're out hunting there's not that much
communication we can really dowith each other while we're
either hunting or running orwhatever.
But I feel, and again myassumption here is the nature of
gathering and picking things.
Charles (14:19):
You can have full-on.
You're not the stare theberries away if you talk too
loud.
Exactly yeah.
Dan (14:23):
And you're, you can be a lot closer, or, yeah, exactly.
So that's my point too.
(14:44):
I feel like that could be alittle of a stressful situation
where which some of ourcommunication could be shut down
.
Charles (14:51):
Now we are like, but also I think that the bonding
could be higher Absolutely Inthe face of the lower
communication, because you'rerunning the risk of starving if
you're unsuccessful or gettingeaten by something bigger.
For sure I could see that, but Ifeel like in a different type
of way, definitely, definitelythe other way, like one of those
, like my buddy's in trouble,I'll be there for him versus I'm
(15:15):
cool and I enjoy spending hourstogether, just chit-chatting
and just going shopping andgathering, whatever, yeah yeah,
it's definitely different, but Ijust I did find that as I was
reading this chapter, and hefiles says the more friends a
woman has, the healthier she'sgoing to be, but he does not say
(15:36):
the same for men.
Right, and I think part of this, this is the man's guide to
women, so it's explaining howwomen work more than in the job
is to explain how men work, Iwould say.
Would you agree?
The most miserable men are theones who don't have a lot of
male friends.
Yeah, yeah.
Dan (15:53):
I think and yeah, there's a couple, and I think that,
looking at it is, I think myopinion is you don't need quite
as many male friends, as girlstend to have girlfriends.
A lot of girls have like manygirlfriends, I would say that's
usually the way, at least theway that it appears.
I've never had more guy friendsthan a girl that I've dated.
That's not true, I think.
(16:15):
I agree.
I think it uses the point ofwhat women talking about when
they go to the bathroom together, when they go shopping together
, and it's everything they talkabout.
And men don't do that.
And he even uses the example oftwo guys sitting around
watching the game and all dayand the, their wives, were
(16:36):
talking, and at the end of theday the one wife asks the guy
hey, isn't that crazy how bob'sbeen handling the amputation of
his leg?
And the guy had no idea thatbob amputated his leg because
they just didn't talk about it,didn't come up.
Yeah, and so I think also again, maybe again assumptions from
(16:57):
information that I don't have,but thinking about the type of
bonding that we, that men, wouldhave, is based on, like you
said, it might be deeper, itmight be based on like trauma or
more intense and because ofthat I don't feel.
I feel like a lot of times guyshave a problem letting our
(17:18):
emotions and tapping into thatside of ourselves with another
guy, because that's notsomething we're genetically
programmed to do or haveexperience doing.
it was more on yeah, survive,thrive and survive type of level
which is like an intensity,right, rather than headed ahead
and befriend, which is whatwomen do, and so they are just
used to expressing theiremotions with each other because
(17:40):
that's they were able to.
They're able to use that frontpart of their brain and not they
weren't like surviving whenthey were bonding.
They were.
They were using emotions andcare and thoughtfulness, and I
think there's a little bit ofthat left and the way that, the
way we you, we work this wayyeah, I, I later had that at
this level.
Charles (17:58):
And I wonder how much of that is, how much of it is
genetic and how much of it isjust being handed down and how
much of it is cultural, becausethere there are.
Yeah, absolutely, we of it iscultural because there there are
yeah, absolutely.
We do see things like theancient greeks and shakespeare
and stuff, where him and hiscontemporaries talked about
feelings and emotions quite abit and all the playwrights in
(18:18):
both of those cultures were onlymen, and so some of them.
There was a place where it'slike, hey, let's delve into this
, let's make this the one of thecornerstones of our society and
our culture and then see othercultures where that doesn't
really happen at all yeah, yeah.
No, I don't think the spartansare probably talking, sitting
around talking about theirfeelings.
Dan (18:37):
I feel like, yeah, what was nurtured right at that point?
But I think genetically, Ithink we were programmed to lean
more one way or the other.
But I absolutely okay.
Charles (18:49):
So let's see female humans and primates form social
groups to ensure their survivaland their survival, the
offspring we mentioned womentend and befriend.
The more friends a woman has,the more health benefits and
they have.
They cited studies where womenwith strong women friendships in
their lives were more likely tosurvive cancer and other
(19:11):
illnesses and other problems.
And and I would say and againit's a correlation causation
chicken and the egg.
But I've been friends with anddated girls who didn't have very
many strong friendships withother women and they did tend to
be a little higher on theanxiety scale than others and
(19:32):
because they they weren'tgetting that social connection.
And I think we we do.
We should have people in ourlives that help us to regulate
our emotions.
And if men or women, if you'rerelatively lonely other than
your primary romanticpartnership, then I think you're
going to miss out on some ofthose anxiety relieving benefits
(19:53):
of having a social network yeah, and he even mentions that men
(20:21):
who connect with other women,and you're shutting that down.
Dan (20:25):
You're just making more of a toxic environment, and it's
also, again, unrealistic tothink that you are going to be
able to provide everything foryour partner and vice versa,
like that, that all theiremotional needs are going to be
met by you or vice versa.
And so why are and are youequipped?
(20:45):
You're not a woman, right?
There's perspectives that she'sgoing to need from other people
and from who are women, who canidentify with her, and there's
perspectives that she's going toneed from you as a guy, that
she's not gonna be able to getfrom some of her female friends.
But don't try to be all thingsthat one person.
I think, and a lot of times Ithink, for I don't know how it
(21:07):
comes about, but in some, forsome weird reason, I grew up
thinking, hey, I, you need to doeverything for that person and
be everything for that otherperson.
Right, you complete me and youare my better half.
And right and but also theseundertones of yeah you are going
(21:27):
to basically be everything forthat one person, and when you
aren't, that becomesdisappointing to both of you.
And then, because yourexpectations are so high, and so
I think, if we lower the bar,realize, hey look, be the best
person that we can be, the bestpartner we can be, but not the
only person in that person'slife.
Charles (21:48):
Yeah, yeah, I'm familiar with I think it was a
Hillary Clinton quote from the90s of takes a village to raise
a child and I would argue ittakes a village to to keep an
adult healthy, and saying youshould really look at it like
yeah.
I've got a team and my partnerhas a team Right and we're both
the MVPs of each other's team,but we're not the whole team and
(22:12):
you should really look at itthat way.
Where her friends, her family,Urkel, they should be part of
the team that are working tokeep her mentally healthy and
happy, and that's not somethingyou should be threatened by or
looking to put the kibosh on.
Dan (22:26):
No, you're going to get the best possible solutions
presented to you when you've gota variety of perspectives
contributing their informationto a problem.
And they've done a lot ofstudies in terms of the
corporate world, where they showpeople from different
backgrounds and they've comparedthat to people who have that
same background in terms of likethe board and different teams
(22:51):
within companies and, more oftenthan not, the one that the
company has more variety interms of the ethnic background
and age background.
Also, diversity, yes, butthere's like studies that prove
that if the company's actuallyit's not just a politically
correct thing to do, it'sactually profitable or more
profitable and more successfulwhen you are able to do that,
(23:13):
yeah, when you're pulling frompeople with different
backgrounds, different kinds ofexperiences, and it just
logically just makes sense tothem, of course, absolutely, yes
, 100%.
Charles (23:22):
He does say men typically turn to their wives or
partners for their socialsupport, but women typically
turn to their female friends,and this is one of our favorite
topics on this podcast where, ifyou try to turn your partner
into your mommy or yourtherapist, you're you're on a
countdown to the end of therelationship.
Dan (23:40):
What if you're successful?
Then yeah, exactly Right.
If what are you okay?
Now they're your mommy or atherapist, but they're no longer
your partner.
Charles (23:49):
Great yeah, enjoy that no-transcript, because if you
(24:10):
start looking for that entirejob description to be filled by
just your romantic partner, youcan't be somebody's therapist as
well as being their hot andheavy lover.
It just doesn't work that way.
Dan (24:26):
I'm also not advocating never telling your partner about
problems.
Charles (24:30):
No, neither am I.
Dan (24:31):
That's different and, like you said, the VIP of your team.
So maybe your advice and thatconnection carries a little bit
more weight and that's fine, butit shouldn't be.
Charles (24:44):
Hey, this person, I'm relying on this person a% of the
time for everything in terms ofmy problems, my issues, and I
would go even a little furtherthan that to say, when something
frustrates you about work oranother friendship or whatever,
don't make your partner thefirst person you always go to,
(25:07):
or even most of the time you goto.
There should be other people inyour life that you can say, hey
, I'm struggling with this, I'mfrustrated with this, I wish
this was working out better forme.
Because, yeah, I do feel, asmen, that if you are constantly
dumping every negative thingthat happens to you in your life
to your partner, looking forthem to make you feel better,
(25:28):
thing that happens to you inyour life to your partner,
looking for them to make youfeel better, then that is going
to get higher some and it'sgoing to start feeling to your
partner like man, does this guydo anything but complain about
the way the world is unfair tohim?
Dan (25:39):
yeah, and I don't know if it was in this chapter, another
chapter, but he talks aboutbuilding up the positive bank of
things.
Charles (25:46):
So yeah, so don't just do that.
Dan (25:48):
Right, you can do some of that.
But also don't let that definethe relationship.
So plan fun surprises, keepthat the romance going, keep you
know, treat that person the wayyou know you at the end of the
relationship, the way you guyswere at the beginning of the
relationship during thatlimerence right, so that?
So that when bad things happenand it's called life, right that
(26:12):
that you've got also a bank ofpositive things that you have
connections over, so that youguys are defining the
relationship by all the problemsthat you're bringing that's,
you've got more.
You've got more there.
Charles (26:23):
And it can be easy to sort of reinterpret that as hide
your struggles from yourpartner.
We're not saying that.
No, just have other people thatcan be your first line of
defense and your first line ofco-regulation, other than just
your partner there's got to be.
You've got to have friends or atherapist or a men's group
where you, when something comesup, you can say, all right, this
(26:45):
is bogging me, I'm going totake it to this other source
first and let them talk me downa little bit and then I'll share
it with my partner and here's alittle shortcut even if you
don't have a therapist or amen's group whatever, just type
it in google, the issue thatyou're having, and just see what
people are talking about that'sa good idea too just to get
some ideas and perspective, kindof.
Dan (27:05):
Yeah, just obviously don't believe everything you read, but
but I I think that's a goodplace to start.
That might actually help youregulate before you bring it to
your partner.
Charles (27:15):
I agree there.
Yeah, so to.
To put it this way, there aretwo extremes.
There's the extreme of I'm ahot shot, alpha male, I don't
have any problems, nothingbothers me, I'm never going to
complain to my partner aboutanything, and the other side of
that is I am just going to be amachine that vomits my troubles
onto my partner and feels betterby sharing everything with her
that's ever bothered me or everdoes bother me.
(27:36):
Don't be either of those things.
Find a place somewhere in themiddle where you're able to
handle your stuff, either onyour own or with your other
close friendships orrelationships, and bring
yourself down off the ledgeoccasionally.
But also don't try to hold upthis image of there's nothing
ever wrong with me, nothingbothers me, I'm always fine and
I don't need you for anything.
(27:57):
There's a healthy thing in themiddle, as always, where you can
moderate those two extremeapproaches.
Dan (28:03):
And putting myself in the other person's shoes.
So if I was the person thatsomebody was coming to and my
girlfriend or somebody washaving a problem and wanting
some advice or wanting to talkto me about it, I would be
flattered in terms of they feellike they love me enough and
they trust me enough to feelvulnerable to tell me about
(28:26):
these things that are botheringthem, and so that's something to
think about when you'rehesitating about bringing
something.
If you have the alpha malescenario you don't want to say
anything you might be missingout an opportunity to connect,
make them feel valuable to youand again, it's a balance, it's
(28:49):
a fun, it's an art, right?
so yeah you don't do it all thetime, but once in a while.
Don't be afraid to do it,because you could actually
improve the relationship bydoing.
Charles (28:58):
I would say the process that probably raises attraction
the most in your relationshipis when you go to your partner
and say, hey, I had thisdifficult thing come up, and
here's how I felt about it,here's what I did to make it
better and here's why I'mfeeling good about it now.
(29:19):
If you didn't give that kind ofa story when you're at the
supper table sharing how yourday went, I have gotten the best
positive feedback from mypartners when I shared it that
way.
Here's a difficult thing thatoccurred today.
Here's how I felt about it.
Here's how I handled it to makeit better and here's why I'm
confident it's not going to be abig deal when it happens the
next time.
That's the kind of story thatwe all are attracted to hearing
(29:43):
from other people.
Dan (30:03):
Sure, yeah, the table from for the rest of your life and I
was watching a huberman clipthat he was interviewing
somebody who said one of thebiggest causes of, or I guess a
side effect or a indication ofsomebody being depressed is that
or one of the things that causedepression.
One of the biggest things thatcause depression is keep talking
about your problems and so,versus talking about it and then
(30:27):
moving on to the theos and it'sbasically it keeps bringing
those feelings back up again,but you talk about those
problems and so I'm not sayingdon't talk about your problems?
Charles (30:38):
No, certainly.
Dan (30:39):
But if you turn into a habit of where that's what I do
is talk about all the thingsthat are bad all the time, you
can cause, like basically whatis just being upset could cause
a long-term pressure.
Charles (30:50):
Yeah, there's a line between venting what's bothering
you and ruminating over justthe negatives in your life, and
that's definitely something tobe aware of.
Dan (31:01):
Yeah, I can see that happening.
If you are getting attentionfrom people because bad things
are happening to you now, youstart to get this reward for
saying about telling them aboutbad things that have happened to
you.
But meanwhile I thinkunfortunately, when that hit of
dopamine wears off now it'sgoing to start to really make
(31:24):
you feel like crap aboutyourself and I could see that
leaning towards some sort ofclinical depression.
Charles (31:31):
Yeah, that reminds me.
I did want to say on thepodcast here we're recording
this on Wednesday, january 8thand in the last week I listened
to an episode of Diary of a CEOthat was all about dopamine.
That was really good.
And then George Peterson was onHuberman and they podcast
together on motivation.
That was pretty good too.
(31:52):
Yeah, got to enjoy for the firsttime in a while, enjoy Jordan
Peterson, where he wasn'tgetting crazy heavy into
politics and social issues andstuff or a lot more of his
education and his expertise as amental health professionals
coming through and as somebodywho knows a bit about
neuroscience and psychology.
(32:13):
And it reminded me of the stuffthat originally attracted me to
his work and not him railingagainst what this political
party is doing or that politicalparty is doing, but hooverman
brought that out in him in apretty good ways.
I recommend both of thoseepisodes.
I don't remember what the nameof the lady that Steven from
Diary of a CEO interviewed, butjust look for Diary of a CEO and
(32:36):
Dopamine.
It was like a two and a halfhour episode.
My girlfriend actually listenedto it and recommended it to me.
Dan (32:41):
Was it the woman who wrote Dopamine?
Charles (32:42):
Niche, it was Okay, great book by the way, I have a
relationship to it.
Yeah, she was excellent.
She got into a lot of herpersonal history and some of the
stuff that she went through andthe kind of work that she does
with people in the addictionmedicine space.
And she's a smart lady and shedid a great job on that
interview.
And again, hugh Berman, jordanPeterson interview book.
(33:03):
Both of those were worthlistening to, so I meant to tell
you those personally, but Icame up on the podcast listening
to so I wanted to.
I meant to tell you thosepersonally, but when I came by
the podcast, okay.
So if you're, if your partner,who's a woman, does not have a
lot of friends, try to gentlyencourage her to seek that out.
Really only, if she isdissatisfied with the level or
(33:25):
quantity of friends that she has, encourage her to join a
women's group, ideally onethat's connected to some other
interests that she has, and justdo what you can to encourage
that and certainly don't standin the way of it, because you
should not be threatened by herfriendships.
And he does get into the thecase of what if she has nail
cramps?
(33:45):
and look, that's an area where,again, we most guys are
threatened by that because wehave recollections of how we
have felt about our femalefriends in the past and that
makes us a little bit suspicious.
I would say share with yourpartner the fact that you are
(34:06):
uncomfortable if she does, ifshe has friends in her life of
either gender, but especiallymen that you are concerned are
rooting for your relationship tofail so that they have a shot.
Just tell her that be like.
Look, I I feel like he's thekind of guy that's hoping that
you and me fail so that he mighthave an end.
And then just ask her to lookat her friendship in that drew
(34:29):
those lenses and if she agrees,then ask her to limit her time.
And certainly don't go to himwith complaints about your
relationship.
When you guys have problems,don't look for him as a shoulder
to cry on about them, right,because, yeah, that can be, that
can legitimately feel like athreat to your relationship what
was unspoken, which I think isimportant to realize, though, is
(34:51):
that she will go like a threatto your relationship.
Dan (34:51):
What was unspoken, which I think is important to realize,
though, is that she will go toher girlfriends about your
relationship.
Yes, keep that in mind, and sheshould Especially if you have
relationships with them ascouples and things like that
Just understand that what you'redoing in your relationship
might actually be translatingover and communicated to her
friends, who might be somecouple friends, which could mean
(35:12):
that the wife also could becommunicating stuff about your
relationship to her husband,which you might be friends with.
Charles (35:18):
Yes, and keep that in mind and endeavor to be the kind
of partner to your girlfriendor wife and the kind of friend
to her friends that they'rerooting for you and not rooting
against you.
Yes, right, good point.
Friend to her friends, thatthey're rooting for you and not
rooting against you.
Yes, right, good point.
Because, yeah, if she's got alot of, if your behavior
translates to something where alot of her friends are telling
(35:39):
her you deserve better, you cando better, then, yeah, that's
going to be, that's going to bea problem, and you'll know like
you'll know which friends thoseare based on their interaction
with you.
Yeah, and you should also assumethat if your wife is a healthy
person who takes her own mentalhealth seriously, she's going to
(36:01):
attract similar people in herfriend circle, and if she's not,
she's going to attract similarpeople in her friend circle.
And yeah, so you should only bescared if you have a reason to
be scared.
If you have a reason to bescared, you need to be open to
the idea that you might not be,you might not have attracted the
right person, but you also havebeen attracted to the right
(36:21):
person.
Why is that?
Because, then, you're not theright person.
Dan (36:24):
I think that's a prompt for you to have a conversation.
Charles (36:27):
It's absolutely sad In terms of addressing your fears
or what's making youuncomfortable, that you're
scared, that she's communicatingto her friends about yeah, and
I would, even if you've got, ifshe's got a male friend that
you're jealous of or nervousabout, I would and I have
propose this thought experimentand say if you if you called him
(36:50):
up right now on speakerphone inthe car next to me and you said
hey, charles and I just had ahuge fight.
We've decided to take a breakand I'm really upset about it.
Can I crash at your placetonight?
I don't think you come to spendthe night at my house.
Is what's going to be the bestthing for you or your
relationship?
Or he's going to say, yeah,pack a bag and come on over, and
(37:14):
I wouldn't say ask your partnerto actually make that call.
But I would bring up thethought experiment to say, if
you place this call to him onspeaker with me in the car next
to you, do you feel 100%confident that he would say what
I hope he would say, or do youthink he would try to take
advantage of Because I thinkthere are a fair number of women
that have a male friend intheir life that would not say
the thing that you would becomfortable hearing if that
(37:36):
conversation, if that phone call, was to take place.
Dan (37:38):
And what's interesting is, if you're looking at it from
this perspective as well, isthat he does mention that when
women hang out with each other,they do things that are more
intimate than when guys hang outwith each other.
So I, each other, they dothings that are more intimate
than what when guys hang outwith each other?
So I could be wrong, but I feellike it's an easy leap, or not
even a leap, to assume that herguy friends are going to behave
(38:03):
just like her girlfriends, wheresleeping over to a girlfriend's
house, not a big deal caringfor doing each other's hair and
intimate touching, where, interms of right rubbing their
shoulders, things like that iscompletely platonic when it
comes to like, women are aggroto each other, whereas with men
it's completely different yes, Iwould not want my girlfriend
(38:25):
having sleepovers with herstraight male friend.
Charles (38:29):
I don't want any men listening to this to translate
that thought experiment into I'mgoing to take her phone and
text her friend and see how heresponds.
We're not suggesting that youdo anything like that.
We're just suggesting ifthere's a guy in her life that
you're feeling a littlethreatened by or uncomfortable
with how intimate theirfriendship is, just suggest that
to her and then count on her tothink about it and do the right
(38:51):
thing, not some paper you'regoing to pull off or you're
trying to Do.
You have a relationship whereyou feel like you have to snoop
through your partner's phone orplay any games like that, then
you're definitely in the wrongrelationship and you should be
asking why you're comfortablebeing in a relationship like
that and why she would beinterested in being with you if
you're that suspicious.
(39:12):
I've not been in a relationshipwhere I've played those games
and I never will be, because I'drather be alone than be having
to put on a Sherlock Holmes hatand do some kind of detective
work on that level.
Absolutely not.
Don't be jealous of her friends.
Don't ever try to limit orcontrol her contact with her
friends.
Don't judge or criticize herfriends.
Don't ever try to limit orcontrol her contact with her
friends.
Don't judge or criticize herfriends.
(39:32):
Don't ignore her need forfemale relationships.
Don't assume the worst of hermale friends.
But when you do feel uncertainor jealous or apprehensive about
her friendships, you can tellher that and say, hey, here are
the concerns I have about thisfellow.
I'm not going to tell you whatto do, but your intimate
friendship with him makes mefeel this way, and so do with
(39:57):
that what you will.
And if she's the right person,she's going to worry more about
how you're feeling about herfriendship than worrying about
how her friend feels about you.
For sure.
And then also, don't live lifewhere you have no friends,
because that will just make herput too much pressure on your
relationship with her.
So I like this chapter.
(40:17):
I thought it was good, eventhough it was easy for me to
pick out a couple areas where Ifelt like, okay, docker gottman
has some different prioritiesthan I do and that's okay,
there's still a lot of goodstuff to gather from it.
But I do feel like, yeah, he isemphasizing some things I
wouldn't emphasize if I waswriting this book.
But nobody's behind.
Charles' book on menunderstanding women Not yet.
(40:39):
All right, thanks, dan, we willtalk next.
We're going to go into a newsection of the book Loving a
Woman for a Lifetime.
Chapter 13 will be Is she theOne?
And we'll get into that next.
Thanks, sounds good.
All right, bye.
Thanks for listening to theentire episode, dan, and I
really appreciate it.
Please visit our website,mindfullymasculinecom for all of
(41:01):
our episodes and updates.
Thanks and take care.
There are two extremes.
There's the extreme of I'm ahotshot alpha male, I don't have
any problems, nothing bothersme, I'm never going to complain
to my partner about anything,and the other side of that is I
am just going to be a machinethat vomits my troubles onto my
partner and feels better bysharing everything with her
that's ever bothered me or everdoes bother me.
Don't be either of those things.
(00:20):
Find a place somewhere in themiddle.
Welcome back to the MindfullyMasculine Podcast.
This is Charles.
In this episode, dan and I willcontinue discussing the Man's
Guide to Women by Dr JohnGottman and others.
We will talk about genderdifferences and friendships,
marriage and longevity,cohabitation versus marriage,
(00:42):
cultural and evolutionaryperspectives on social
connection, social networks andemotional regulation,
encouraging partner friendships,balancing emotional support in
relationships, correlationversus causation in healthy
habits, personal development andrelational health, and other
topics.
As always, I encourage you tocheck out our website for both
(01:04):
audio and video episodes, aswell as other news and resources
we decide are fit for sharing.
Dan (01:09):
Thanks for listening and enjoy to cover chapter 12, best
Friends Forever, which is alittle.
Charles (01:28):
I was surprised by the content of this chapter.
It's not really being aboutbeing your partner's best friend
as much as it's about thedynamics of friendship overall
and how it affects yourrelationship.
Dan (01:41):
And the difference also between men's friendships and
women's friendships, and Ithought that was very
interesting, the way he bringsin the need, relationship and
and the difference also betweenmen's friendships and women's
friendships.
And I thought that was veryinteresting, the way he brings
in the need for women and andwhy they need those friendships
more than men.
Charles (01:53):
Yeah, I was a little surprised about that and the
thing is he didn't really, orthey didn't, because, again, I
was playing all four of them.
I always give john gottmancredit for writing this book
because and I think it's tworeasons his name appears the
biggest, and also it's narratedby a man, and so as we listen to
it, I just, me too, do ashortcut in my head of oh, it's
(02:16):
john gottman saying these things, but there's two other women
and one other guy that wrotethis book with them, and I gotta
try to remember that.
Dan (02:24):
They're mentioned a lot less in the search throughout
the book as well.
Charles (02:27):
So I think there's something in this chapter or the
next chapter that I don'tremember when he talks.
I think it's the next chapterwhere he talks a lot about how
men in marriages live longer,and we'll get into that in
detail when we do the nextepisode of the podcast, but it
did strike me.
I had the thought, and maybeyou did too.
(02:53):
While I'm hearing him talkabout that repeatedly, I wonder
if the fact that he's an olderguy who's in a marriage, if he
felt the need to emphasize that,because what I hear pretty much
any study or anything thattalks about okay, if you're a
guy who does X, you'll livelonger than a guy who doesn't.
My response to that is I'm notin this to live as long as I can
(03:15):
.
I'm not in this to die early.
I'm not in this to get sickearly.
I'm not in this to have a lowquality of life early.
Dan (03:22):
I'm not saying I don't give any of those things a
consideration, but just havingthe highest possible number when
I finally croaked is way, waylow on my list of priorities a
lifetime of indiscriminate andun or insecure relationships,
being able to sleep with whoeveryou want as many times as you
(03:52):
want, and you're trading thatoff for a marriage commitment
where it says a lifetime ofhappiness and joy, and I think
part it's a side benefit ofbeing able to live longer.
But I think they're reallytrying to focus on hey, by being
in a marriage, you really havethe ability to have a lifetime
(04:14):
of happiness rather than notnecessarily being as happy if
you are single and constantlydating and changing
relationships single andconstantly dating and changing
relationships?
Charles (04:28):
yes, and I definitely.
Yeah.
I'm not saying that I amagainst monogamy or marriage or
long-term partnerships oranything like that.
I'm just saying that I don'tsee it as big as of a selling
point, as I think he's trying tomake it that you live longer
because of it, and part of thereason he he says that you live
longer because of it, and partof the reason he says that you
live longer because of it, issingle men are more likely to
engage in all-around riskybehaviors, including drinking,
(04:52):
drinking and driving, usingdrugs, and none of those things
are part of my life anyway in amonogamous relationship.
Now, there's no harmful orunhealthy things I would be
doing if I wasn't, if I wassingle right now.
There's no things I feel likeI'm missing out on or things
(05:13):
that I stopped once I got into arelationship, so I just.
It does make me wonder, though,as an older guy in a long-term
relationship, is he a little bitmore bullish on the you'll live
longer if you're married thanhe would be otherwise, and I
think it's an old way.
I think most old people areinto the idea of living longer
(05:35):
because death is closer for them.
As far as our actuarial tablesare concerned, correct.
But when he talks about you'lllive for an average of I think
it's eight years, yeah, that'swhat he said for me, man, the
difference between 81 and 89 andmaybe it's because I'm 40 years
away from that range it meanslittle to nothing to me.
(05:58):
If I, and if I had the choiceof you, can die in your sleep in
relatively good shape at 81 orspend the last eight years of
your life in a nursing home, sayat 89, then that's a no-brainer
for me.
Dan (06:11):
Yeah, you really need to look at the quality of life
those last eight years.
If you can preserve the samequality of life that you've had
and it just lasts eight yearslonger, hey, I see the value in
that.
But if it's going to be ashitty eight years longer, hey,
I see the value in that.
But if it's going to be ashitty eight years for us to a
year's struggle, then you'reyou're not really selling it and
(06:31):
I don't, and I don't feel likeyour.
Charles (06:35):
I guess maybe your relationship status could have
an impact on.
If you have a partner who'stelling you, hey, go to your
doctor for your annual checkup,and that's the kind of thing you
wouldn't do otherwise, then,yes, I could see how that would
have that kind of effect on itand I think when they were they
also mentioned a study done byPepper Schwartz, who actually is
on the is one of thepsychologists or psychiatrists
(06:59):
on the Married at First Sightshow for a full year.
Dan (07:02):
So, when they said Pepper Schwartz, I'm like, oh, dr
Pepper, okay From, married upfor a sight show, for a full
interest is.
So when they said pepperschwartz, I'm gonna go dr pepper
, okay from.
So dr, that's how she goes.
Like she goes by dr fevers whodoes yeah, it's very what a yeah
, great marketing it looks likedr ruth jesus, that's a blonde
older lady.
Yeah, anyway, so they theymentioned.
She did a really large study,was like 12 000 married couples,
if you remember that or notmarried couples.
(07:22):
It was married and unmarriedpeople that tried to say, trying
to figure out what thedifference was with people
cohabitating versus people whowere married.
That was, yeah, there were somesurprising things in that
section, didn't I think that'swhere is that where the data
(07:44):
came from, the eight years?
Charles (07:47):
Or they were like less committed because yeah, the
assumption was that if youcohabitate with someone for a
long time You're as committed,they'll start acting like a
married couple.
Dan (07:55):
That's what it was.
Charles (07:56):
Yes, yeah, they were like no.
You wrote the data says you.
You act less like a marriedcouple If you cohabitate for a
long period of time.
Dan (08:03):
Right now, act less like a married couple if you cohabitate
for a long period of time RightNow.
And then the quick-, oh, sevenyears is when it becomes a
common law marriage.
That's right, but there was areal quick sentence in there
where he said now that datacould have been a little bit.
There's a variable in therewhere they said that people who
typically cohabitate but don'tmarry already engage in
(08:24):
unhealthy habits oh, that'sright, they took it back to.
Charles (08:28):
Based on your education and your high school experience
, people who cohabitate are morelikely to be less educated and
drink more, use drugs, morethings like that you.
So, then that's interesting.
So the more educated you are,the more likely you are to get
married.
I guess that's interesting.
So the more educated you are,the more likely you are to get
married, I guess.
Dan (08:47):
I guess Right and commit in that way.
So then you're leading ahealthier lifestyle already,
right?
Then you have to.
Charles (08:53):
So then it has that correlation versus causing, like
you said like you already do,the healthy thing?
Dan (09:00):
Exactly so.
Just because you get marrieddoes not mean you're going to
get an extra eight years.
Correct yes thing?
Exactly so just because you getmarried does not mean you're
going to get an extra eightyears.
Charles (09:06):
Correct, yes, in your case.
Yeah, that's interesting, soyou?
Dan (09:08):
get those eight years regardless.
Charles (09:10):
Right yeah, if you're making healthy decisions with
the way you live.
Dan (09:14):
So that kind of fits his whole argument oh, you get
married and you're going to be.
Charles (09:18):
Listen, You're going to it.
The bigger the study is, boththe more likely it is to be
accurate, but also the lesslikely it is to zero in on an
individual.
And looking at it this way, isyou're less likely to have
(09:40):
somebody who wants to marry youif you've got drug problems,
alcohol problems?
No, you find people to marrythem fairly easily, but they
have the same problem.
So that's the thing you attract, what you are right and I don't
.
Dan (09:48):
I I guess those people are not going to get that eight
years.
They're not going to be part ofthe majority I think I'll marry
their problem.
That's not going to fix allthose other problems and dollars
donuts are most likely gettingdivorced and maybe remarried,
and divorced, remarried versusjust staying with one person the
whole time.
Charles (10:06):
Yeah, so the question is, yeah, does getting married
make you more likely to livelonger, or is being married just
another indicator that you makethe kind of decisions that lead
you to live longer?
I would say that's probably theI was great.
But yeah, trying to separatecausation from correlation in
studies is extremely difficult,especially the ones where it's,
(10:27):
if you do this and the big onethat would come up on rogan all
the time is sitting in a saunafor 20 minutes a day and how it
lowers all caused morbidity by67 percent or some holy cow
something ridiculous number.
But then you have to say, okay,people who have a daily sauna
practice, what else are theydoing?
And the answer, the thingthat's keeping them alive, is
(10:48):
the.
What else are they doing, notthe fact that they go sit in a
sauna 20 minutes.
Well, certainly they're payingattention to what they eat.
They're paying attention to howoften they move their body.
Dan (10:56):
They're doing a whole lot taking their vitamins and their
supplements and even the evensitting in the sauna is a form
of relaxation, and so it's justlike a lot of that is like a
daily.
Charles (11:05):
What other self-care rituals do they have besides
just going to the sauna?
Yeah, so it's very yeah, it'seasy.
If you're in the, if you're inthe building and selling saunas
business, it's very easy topoint to that and say do you
want to live longer?
Dan (11:18):
Then buy our sauna, speaking of which, I was in
Sam's Club the other day.
They, the other day they've gotthese like 300 stand-up saunas
now where you can including thered light therapy, whatever you
can buy and throw it in the roomthat you want any type of.
Oh, there was yeah it was yeah,my, my girlfriend had dragged
me away.
Geez, I knew you'd link that.
Charles (11:35):
I was like yeah, I do the one that I'm dealing with
right now the walking pad andthe standing desk.
You know that I've got a lotmore room in my new camper than
I had in my old one.
I've got a lot more temptationto just getting the smallest
possible standing desk that Icould just put my MacBook on and
just stand while I'm answeringemails, while I'm watching TV
(11:57):
shows, while I'm doing whatever.
So let's jump into a little bitof the text, some of the other
principles that he shares.
Women are more sociallyconnected than men.
I think that's certainly truein modern society.
I'm not convinced that is abiological fact, though, because
I think they're connected indifferent ways.
(12:18):
Where you know, while the womenwere at home doing the
gathering and raising of thechildren, the guys were
typically out together doing thehunt.
I would argue both of those areequally as socially connecting
activities.
We don't really have that levelof connection as men anymore,
(12:39):
because going out to kill thebeast, as it were, is not an
exclusively male activity, likeit was up until 70 years ago,
when it was pretty much men inthe workforce exclusively, or
there were certainly some jobsthat women had, but it wasn't a
lot of men and women workingtogether.
(13:00):
There is now, I think, the.
I think men probably got moreof that male social connection
when you went to an office andit was only other dudes and this
is even before the women weresecretaries and stuff like that,
back when it was just dudes ina factory surrounded by other
dudes.
(13:21):
That probably mapped a littlebit closer to the going out for
the hunting than what we havetoday.
And I think now men are lesssocially connected because it
takes more effort and we stillfind that in some ways you and I
(13:42):
go and hang out with ourfriends.
We'll go out occasionally, butnot to the degree that most
women seem to have or to thedegree that men used to have not
too long ago on an evolutionarytime scale so I'm wondering if
this, the nature of the work, iswhat makes a difference in
terms of that social connectionfrom history.
Dan (14:02):
So if we're out hunting there's not that much
communication we can really dowith each other while we're
either hunting or running orwhatever.
But I feel, and again myassumption here is the nature of
gathering and picking things.
Charles (14:19):
You can have full-on.
You're not the stare theberries away if you talk too
loud.
Exactly yeah.
Dan (14:23):
And you're, you can be a lot closer, or, yeah, exactly.
So that's my point too.
(14:44):
I feel like that could be alittle of a stressful situation
where which some of ourcommunication could be shut down
.
Charles (14:51):
Now we are like, but also I think that the bonding
could be higher Absolutely Inthe face of the lower
communication, because you'rerunning the risk of starving if
you're unsuccessful or gettingeaten by something bigger.
For sure I could see that, but Ifeel like in a different type
of way, definitely, definitelythe other way, like one of those
, like my buddy's in trouble,I'll be there for him versus I'm
(15:15):
cool and I enjoy spending hourstogether, just chit-chatting
and just going shopping andgathering, whatever, yeah yeah,
it's definitely different, but Ijust I did find that as I was
reading this chapter, and hefiles says the more friends a
woman has, the healthier she'sgoing to be, but he does not say
(15:36):
the same for men.
Right, and I think part of this, this is the man's guide to
women, so it's explaining howwomen work more than in the job
is to explain how men work, Iwould say.
Would you agree?
The most miserable men are theones who don't have a lot of
male friends.
Yeah, yeah.
Dan (15:53):
I think and yeah, there's a couple, and I think that,
looking at it is, I think myopinion is you don't need quite
as many male friends, as girlstend to have girlfriends.
A lot of girls have like manygirlfriends, I would say that's
usually the way, at least theway that it appears.
I've never had more guy friendsthan a girl that I've dated.
That's not true, I think.
(16:15):
I agree.
I think it uses the point ofwhat women talking about when
they go to the bathroom together, when they go shopping together
, and it's everything they talkabout.
And men don't do that.
And he even uses the example oftwo guys sitting around
watching the game and all dayand the, their wives, were
(16:36):
talking, and at the end of theday the one wife asks the guy
hey, isn't that crazy how bob'sbeen handling the amputation of
his leg?
And the guy had no idea thatbob amputated his leg because
they just didn't talk about it,didn't come up.
Yeah, and so I think also again, maybe again assumptions from
(16:57):
information that I don't have,but thinking about the type of
bonding that we, that men, wouldhave, is based on, like you
said, it might be deeper, itmight be based on like trauma or
more intense and because ofthat I don't feel.
I feel like a lot of times guyshave a problem letting our
(17:18):
emotions and tapping into thatside of ourselves with another
guy, because that's notsomething we're genetically
programmed to do or haveexperience doing.
it was more on yeah, survive,thrive and survive type of level
which is like an intensity,right, rather than headed ahead
and befriend, which is whatwomen do, and so they are just
used to expressing theiremotions with each other because
(17:40):
that's they were able to.
They're able to use that frontpart of their brain and not they
weren't like surviving whenthey were bonding.
They were.
They were using emotions andcare and thoughtfulness, and I
think there's a little bit ofthat left and the way that, the
way we you, we work this wayyeah, I, I later had that at
this level.
Charles (17:58):
And I wonder how much of that is, how much of it is
genetic and how much of it isjust being handed down and how
much of it is cultural, becausethere there are.
Yeah, absolutely, we of it iscultural because there there are
yeah, absolutely.
We do see things like theancient greeks and shakespeare
and stuff, where him and hiscontemporaries talked about
feelings and emotions quite abit and all the playwrights in
(18:18):
both of those cultures were onlymen, and so some of them.
There was a place where it'slike, hey, let's delve into this
, let's make this the one of thecornerstones of our society and
our culture and then see othercultures where that doesn't
really happen at all yeah, yeah.
No, I don't think the spartansare probably talking, sitting
around talking about theirfeelings.
Dan (18:37):
I feel like, yeah, what was nurtured right at that point?
But I think genetically, Ithink we were programmed to lean
more one way or the other.
But I absolutely okay.
Charles (18:49):
So let's see female humans and primates form social
groups to ensure their survivaland their survival, the
offspring we mentioned womentend and befriend.
The more friends a woman has,the more health benefits and
they have.
They cited studies where womenwith strong women friendships in
their lives were more likely tosurvive cancer and other
(19:11):
illnesses and other problems.
And and I would say and againit's a correlation causation
chicken and the egg.
But I've been friends with anddated girls who didn't have very
many strong friendships withother women and they did tend to
be a little higher on theanxiety scale than others and
(19:32):
because they they weren'tgetting that social connection.
And I think we we do.
We should have people in ourlives that help us to regulate
our emotions.
And if men or women, if you'rerelatively lonely other than
your primary romanticpartnership, then I think you're
going to miss out on some ofthose anxiety relieving benefits
(19:53):
of having a social network yeah, and he even mentions that men
(20:21):
who connect with other women,and you're shutting that down.
Dan (20:25):
You're just making more of a toxic environment, and it's
also, again, unrealistic tothink that you are going to be
able to provide everything foryour partner and vice versa,
like that, that all theiremotional needs are going to be
met by you or vice versa.
And so why are and are youequipped?
(20:45):
You're not a woman, right?
There's perspectives that she'sgoing to need from other people
and from who are women, who canidentify with her, and there's
perspectives that she's going toneed from you as a guy, that
she's not gonna be able to getfrom some of her female friends.
But don't try to be all thingsthat one person.
I think, and a lot of times Ithink, for I don't know how it
(21:07):
comes about, but in some, forsome weird reason, I grew up
thinking, hey, I, you need to doeverything for that person and
be everything for that otherperson.
Right, you complete me and youare my better half.
And right and but also theseundertones of yeah you are going
(21:27):
to basically be everything forthat one person, and when you
aren't, that becomesdisappointing to both of you.
And then, because yourexpectations are so high, and so
I think, if we lower the bar,realize, hey look, be the best
person that we can be, the bestpartner we can be, but not the
only person in that person'slife.
Charles (21:48):
Yeah, yeah, I'm familiar with I think it was a
Hillary Clinton quote from the90s of takes a village to raise
a child and I would argue ittakes a village to to keep an
adult healthy, and saying youshould really look at it like
yeah.
I've got a team and my partnerhas a team Right and we're both
the MVPs of each other's team,but we're not the whole team and
(22:12):
you should really look at itthat way.
Where her friends, her family,Urkel, they should be part of
the team that are working tokeep her mentally healthy and
happy, and that's not somethingyou should be threatened by or
looking to put the kibosh on.
Dan (22:26):
No, you're going to get the best possible solutions
presented to you when you've gota variety of perspectives
contributing their informationto a problem.
And they've done a lot ofstudies in terms of the
corporate world, where they showpeople from different
backgrounds and they've comparedthat to people who have that
same background in terms of likethe board and different teams
(22:51):
within companies and, more oftenthan not, the one that the
company has more variety interms of the ethnic background
and age background.
Also, diversity, yes, butthere's like studies that prove
that if the company's actuallyit's not just a politically
correct thing to do, it'sactually profitable or more
profitable and more successfulwhen you are able to do that,
(23:13):
yeah, when you're pulling frompeople with different
backgrounds, different kinds ofexperiences, and it just
logically just makes sense tothem, of course, absolutely, yes
, 100%.
Charles (23:22):
He does say men typically turn to their wives or
partners for their socialsupport, but women typically
turn to their female friends,and this is one of our favorite
topics on this podcast where, ifyou try to turn your partner
into your mommy or yourtherapist, you're you're on a
countdown to the end of therelationship.
Dan (23:40):
What if you're successful?
Then yeah, exactly Right.
If what are you okay?
Now they're your mommy or atherapist, but they're no longer
your partner.
Charles (23:49):
Great yeah, enjoy that no-transcript, because if you
(24:10):
start looking for that entirejob description to be filled by
just your romantic partner, youcan't be somebody's therapist as
well as being their hot andheavy lover.
It just doesn't work that way.
Dan (24:26):
I'm also not advocating never telling your partner about
problems.
Charles (24:30):
No, neither am I.
Dan (24:31):
That's different and, like you said, the VIP of your team.
So maybe your advice and thatconnection carries a little bit
more weight and that's fine, butit shouldn't be.
Charles (24:44):
Hey, this person, I'm relying on this person a% of the
time for everything in terms ofmy problems, my issues, and I
would go even a little furtherthan that to say, when something
frustrates you about work oranother friendship or whatever,
don't make your partner thefirst person you always go to,
(25:07):
or even most of the time you goto.
There should be other people inyour life that you can say, hey
, I'm struggling with this, I'mfrustrated with this, I wish
this was working out better forme.
Because, yeah, I do feel, asmen, that if you are constantly
dumping every negative thingthat happens to you in your life
to your partner, looking forthem to make you feel better,
(25:28):
thing that happens to you inyour life to your partner,
looking for them to make youfeel better, then that is going
to get higher some and it'sgoing to start feeling to your
partner like man, does this guydo anything but complain about
the way the world is unfair tohim?
Dan (25:39):
yeah, and I don't know if it was in this chapter, another
chapter, but he talks aboutbuilding up the positive bank of
things.
Charles (25:46):
So yeah, so don't just do that.
Dan (25:48):
Right, you can do some of that.
But also don't let that definethe relationship.
So plan fun surprises, keepthat the romance going, keep you
know, treat that person the wayyou know you at the end of the
relationship, the way you guyswere at the beginning of the
relationship during thatlimerence right, so that?
So that when bad things happenand it's called life, right that
(26:12):
that you've got also a bank ofpositive things that you have
connections over, so that youguys are defining the
relationship by all the problemsthat you're bringing that's,
you've got more.
You've got more there.
Charles (26:23):
And it can be easy to sort of reinterpret that as hide
your struggles from yourpartner.
We're not saying that.
No, just have other people thatcan be your first line of
defense and your first line ofco-regulation, other than just
your partner there's got to be.
You've got to have friends or atherapist or a men's group
where you, when something comesup, you can say, all right, this
(26:45):
is bogging me, I'm going totake it to this other source
first and let them talk me downa little bit and then I'll share
it with my partner and here's alittle shortcut even if you
don't have a therapist or amen's group whatever, just type
it in google, the issue thatyou're having, and just see what
people are talking about that'sa good idea too just to get
some ideas and perspective, kindof.
Dan (27:05):
Yeah, just obviously don't believe everything you read, but
but I I think that's a goodplace to start.
That might actually help youregulate before you bring it to
your partner.
Charles (27:15):
I agree there.
Yeah, so to.
To put it this way, there aretwo extremes.
There's the extreme of I'm ahot shot, alpha male, I don't
have any problems, nothingbothers me, I'm never going to
complain to my partner aboutanything, and the other side of
that is I am just going to be amachine that vomits my troubles
onto my partner and feels betterby sharing everything with her
that's ever bothered me or everdoes bother me.
(27:36):
Don't be either of those things.
Find a place somewhere in themiddle where you're able to
handle your stuff, either onyour own or with your other
close friendships orrelationships, and bring
yourself down off the ledgeoccasionally.
But also don't try to hold upthis image of there's nothing
ever wrong with me, nothingbothers me, I'm always fine and
I don't need you for anything.
(27:57):
There's a healthy thing in themiddle, as always, where you can
moderate those two extremeapproaches.
Dan (28:03):
And putting myself in the other person's shoes.
So if I was the person thatsomebody was coming to and my
girlfriend or somebody washaving a problem and wanting
some advice or wanting to talkto me about it, I would be
flattered in terms of they feellike they love me enough and
they trust me enough to feelvulnerable to tell me about
(28:26):
these things that are botheringthem, and so that's something to
think about when you'rehesitating about bringing
something.
If you have the alpha malescenario you don't want to say
anything you might be missingout an opportunity to connect,
make them feel valuable to youand again, it's a balance, it's
(28:49):
a fun, it's an art, right?
so yeah you don't do it all thetime, but once in a while.
Don't be afraid to do it,because you could actually
improve the relationship bydoing.
Charles (28:58):
I would say the process that probably raises attraction
the most in your relationshipis when you go to your partner
and say, hey, I had thisdifficult thing come up, and
here's how I felt about it,here's what I did to make it
better and here's why I'mfeeling good about it now.
(29:19):
If you didn't give that kind ofa story when you're at the
supper table sharing how yourday went, I have gotten the best
positive feedback from mypartners when I shared it that
way.
Here's a difficult thing thatoccurred today.
Here's how I felt about it.
Here's how I handled it to makeit better and here's why I'm
confident it's not going to be abig deal when it happens the
next time.
That's the kind of story thatwe all are attracted to hearing
(29:43):
from other people.
Dan (30:03):
Sure, yeah, the table from for the rest of your life and I
was watching a huberman clipthat he was interviewing
somebody who said one of thebiggest causes of, or I guess a
side effect or a indication ofsomebody being depressed is that
or one of the things that causedepression.
One of the biggest things thatcause depression is keep talking
about your problems and so,versus talking about it and then
(30:27):
moving on to the theos and it'sbasically it keeps bringing
those feelings back up again,but you talk about those
problems and so I'm not sayingdon't talk about your problems?
Charles (30:38):
No, certainly.
Dan (30:39):
But if you turn into a habit of where that's what I do
is talk about all the thingsthat are bad all the time, you
can cause, like basically whatis just being upset could cause
a long-term pressure.
Charles (30:50):
Yeah, there's a line between venting what's bothering
you and ruminating over justthe negatives in your life, and
that's definitely something tobe aware of.
Dan (31:01):
Yeah, I can see that happening.
If you are getting attentionfrom people because bad things
are happening to you now, youstart to get this reward for
saying about telling them aboutbad things that have happened to
you.
But meanwhile I thinkunfortunately, when that hit of
dopamine wears off now it'sgoing to start to really make
(31:24):
you feel like crap aboutyourself and I could see that
leaning towards some sort ofclinical depression.
Charles (31:31):
Yeah, that reminds me.
I did want to say on thepodcast here we're recording
this on Wednesday, january 8thand in the last week I listened
to an episode of Diary of a CEOthat was all about dopamine.
That was really good.
And then George Peterson was onHuberman and they podcast
together on motivation.
That was pretty good too.
(31:52):
Yeah, got to enjoy for the firsttime in a while, enjoy Jordan
Peterson, where he wasn'tgetting crazy heavy into
politics and social issues andstuff or a lot more of his
education and his expertise as amental health professionals
coming through and as somebodywho knows a bit about
neuroscience and psychology.
(32:13):
And it reminded me of the stuffthat originally attracted me to
his work and not him railingagainst what this political
party is doing or that politicalparty is doing, but hooverman
brought that out in him in apretty good ways.
I recommend both of thoseepisodes.
I don't remember what the nameof the lady that Steven from
Diary of a CEO interviewed, butjust look for Diary of a CEO and
(32:36):
Dopamine.
It was like a two and a halfhour episode.
My girlfriend actually listenedto it and recommended it to me.
Dan (32:41):
Was it the woman who wrote Dopamine?
Charles (32:42):
Niche, it was Okay, great book by the way, I have a
relationship to it.
Yeah, she was excellent.
She got into a lot of herpersonal history and some of the
stuff that she went through andthe kind of work that she does
with people in the addictionmedicine space.
And she's a smart lady and shedid a great job on that
interview.
And again, hugh Berman, jordanPeterson interview book.
(33:03):
Both of those were worthlistening to, so I meant to tell
you those personally, but Icame up on the podcast listening
to so I wanted to.
I meant to tell you thosepersonally, but when I came by
the podcast, okay.
So if you're, if your partner,who's a woman, does not have a
lot of friends, try to gentlyencourage her to seek that out.
Really only, if she isdissatisfied with the level or
(33:25):
quantity of friends that she has, encourage her to join a
women's group, ideally onethat's connected to some other
interests that she has, and justdo what you can to encourage
that and certainly don't standin the way of it, because you
should not be threatened by herfriendships.
And he does get into the thecase of what if she has nail
cramps?
(33:45):
and look, that's an area where,again, we most guys are
threatened by that because wehave recollections of how we
have felt about our femalefriends in the past and that
makes us a little bit suspicious.
I would say share with yourpartner the fact that you are
(34:06):
uncomfortable if she does, ifshe has friends in her life of
either gender, but especiallymen that you are concerned are
rooting for your relationship tofail so that they have a shot.
Just tell her that be like.
Look, I I feel like he's thekind of guy that's hoping that
you and me fail so that he mighthave an end.
And then just ask her to lookat her friendship in that drew
(34:29):
those lenses and if she agrees,then ask her to limit her time.
And certainly don't go to himwith complaints about your
relationship.
When you guys have problems,don't look for him as a shoulder
to cry on about them, right,because, yeah, that can be, that
can legitimately feel like athreat to your relationship what
was unspoken, which I think isimportant to realize, though, is
(34:51):
that she will go like a threatto your relationship.
Dan (34:51):
What was unspoken, which I think is important to realize,
though, is that she will go toher girlfriends about your
relationship.
Yes, keep that in mind, and sheshould Especially if you have
relationships with them ascouples and things like that
Just understand that what you'redoing in your relationship
might actually be translatingover and communicated to her
friends, who might be somecouple friends, which could mean
(35:12):
that the wife also could becommunicating stuff about your
relationship to her husband,which you might be friends with.
Charles (35:18):
Yes, and keep that in mind and endeavor to be the kind
of partner to your girlfriendor wife and the kind of friend
to her friends that they'rerooting for you and not rooting
against you.
Yes, right, good point.
Friend to her friends, thatthey're rooting for you and not
rooting against you.
Yes, right, good point.
Because, yeah, if she's got alot of, if your behavior
translates to something where alot of her friends are telling
(35:39):
her you deserve better, you cando better, then, yeah, that's
going to be, that's going to bea problem, and you'll know like
you'll know which friends thoseare based on their interaction
with you.
Yeah, and you should also assumethat if your wife is a healthy
person who takes her own mentalhealth seriously, she's going to
(36:01):
attract similar people in herfriend circle, and if she's not,
she's going to attract similarpeople in her friend circle.
And yeah, so you should only bescared if you have a reason to
be scared.
If you have a reason to bescared, you need to be open to
the idea that you might not be,you might not have attracted the
right person, but you also havebeen attracted to the right
(36:21):
person.
Why is that?
Because, then, you're not theright person.
Dan (36:24):
I think that's a prompt for you to have a conversation.
Charles (36:27):
It's absolutely sad In terms of addressing your fears
or what's making youuncomfortable, that you're
scared, that she's communicatingto her friends about yeah, and
I would, even if you've got, ifshe's got a male friend that
you're jealous of or nervousabout, I would and I have
propose this thought experimentand say if you if you called him
(36:50):
up right now on speakerphone inthe car next to me and you said
hey, charles and I just had ahuge fight.
We've decided to take a breakand I'm really upset about it.
Can I crash at your placetonight?
I don't think you come to spendthe night at my house.
Is what's going to be the bestthing for you or your
relationship?
Or he's going to say, yeah,pack a bag and come on over, and
(37:14):
I wouldn't say ask your partnerto actually make that call.
But I would bring up thethought experiment to say, if
you place this call to him onspeaker with me in the car next
to you, do you feel 100%confident that he would say what
I hope he would say, or do youthink he would try to take
advantage of Because I thinkthere are a fair number of women
that have a male friend intheir life that would not say
the thing that you would becomfortable hearing if that
(37:36):
conversation, if that phone call, was to take place.
Dan (37:38):
And what's interesting is, if you're looking at it from
this perspective as well, isthat he does mention that when
women hang out with each other,they do things that are more
intimate than when guys hang outwith each other.
So I, each other, they dothings that are more intimate
than what when guys hang outwith each other?
So I could be wrong, but I feellike it's an easy leap, or not
even a leap, to assume that herguy friends are going to behave
(38:03):
just like her girlfriends, wheresleeping over to a girlfriend's
house, not a big deal caringfor doing each other's hair and
intimate touching, where, interms of right rubbing their
shoulders, things like that iscompletely platonic when it
comes to like, women are aggroto each other, whereas with men
it's completely different yes, Iwould not want my girlfriend
(38:25):
having sleepovers with herstraight male friend.
Charles (38:29):
I don't want any men listening to this to translate
that thought experiment into I'mgoing to take her phone and
text her friend and see how heresponds.
We're not suggesting that youdo anything like that.
We're just suggesting ifthere's a guy in her life that
you're feeling a littlethreatened by or uncomfortable
with how intimate theirfriendship is, just suggest that
to her and then count on her tothink about it and do the right
(38:51):
thing, not some paper you'regoing to pull off or you're
trying to Do.
You have a relationship whereyou feel like you have to snoop
through your partner's phone orplay any games like that, then
you're definitely in the wrongrelationship and you should be
asking why you're comfortablebeing in a relationship like
that and why she would beinterested in being with you if
you're that suspicious.
(39:12):
I've not been in a relationshipwhere I've played those games
and I never will be, because I'drather be alone than be having
to put on a Sherlock Holmes hatand do some kind of detective
work on that level.
Absolutely not.
Don't be jealous of her friends.
Don't ever try to limit orcontrol her contact with her
friends.
Don't judge or criticize herfriends.
Don't ever try to limit orcontrol her contact with her
friends.
Don't judge or criticize herfriends.
(39:32):
Don't ignore her need forfemale relationships.
Don't assume the worst of hermale friends.
But when you do feel uncertainor jealous or apprehensive about
her friendships, you can tellher that and say, hey, here are
the concerns I have about thisfellow.
I'm not going to tell you whatto do, but your intimate
friendship with him makes mefeel this way, and so do with
(39:57):
that what you will.
And if she's the right person,she's going to worry more about
how you're feeling about herfriendship than worrying about
how her friend feels about you.
For sure.
And then also, don't live lifewhere you have no friends,
because that will just make herput too much pressure on your
relationship with her.
So I like this chapter.
(40:17):
I thought it was good, eventhough it was easy for me to
pick out a couple areas where Ifelt like, okay, docker gottman
has some different prioritiesthan I do and that's okay,
there's still a lot of goodstuff to gather from it.
But I do feel like, yeah, he isemphasizing some things I
wouldn't emphasize if I waswriting this book.
But nobody's behind.
Charles' book on menunderstanding women Not yet.
(40:39):
All right, thanks, dan, we willtalk next.
We're going to go into a newsection of the book Loving a
Woman for a Lifetime.
Chapter 13 will be Is she theOne?
And we'll get into that next.
Thanks, sounds good.
All right, bye.
Thanks for listening to theentire episode, dan, and I
really appreciate it.
Please visit our website,mindfullymasculinecom for all of
(41:01):
our episodes and updates.
Thanks and take care.
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Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.